630. I'm going to call this meeting to order. Roll call please. Chairperson Rosinski here, miss Howlett. Yes, miss
Kaplan. Miss Kaplan. Yes. Mr. Cadena present. Miss. Produce present. Thank you. Are there
any public comments that do not relate to the item on the agenda? Okay, we'll move on. Quasi judicial announcement and
swearing in of speakers. This is a quasi judicial proceeding where the board acts in a quasi judicial rather than a legislative capacity at a quasi judicial hearing. It is not the
board's function to make law, but rather to apply law that has already been established in a quasi judicial hearing. The board is required by law to make findings of fact, based
upon the evidence presented at the hearing, and apply those findings of fact to previously established criteria contained in the Code of Ordinances in order to make a legal decision
regarding the application before it. The board may only consider evidence at this hearing that the law considers competent, substantial and relevant to the issues. If the competent, substantial and
relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has met the criteria established in the Code of Ordinances, then the board is required by law to find in favor of the applicant. By the
same token, if the competent, substantial and relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has failed to meet the criteria established in the Code of Ordinances, then the board is
required by law to find against the applicant. Does anybody have a ex parte communication to disclose any conflict of interest? No. If you're going
to speak, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm your testimony before the Heritage Preservation Board is the truth,
so help you. Thank you, thank you. All right. Application number 26.29. Schulz certificate of approval for
window and door replacement at 121 North Gross Avenue. Carolyn. Good evening. Caroline Lanford,
principal planner with the City of Tarpon Springs. We have application 2629. This first slide is showing the location and land use context of the
subject property on North Gross Avenue, just down the street from here. This slide is showing the location of the subject property within the
national and local historic districts. The applicant is seeking a certificate of appropriateness to replace replace three wood windows with
vinyl impact windows and French doors with single light sliding glass doors at the subject property, which is a circa 1919
frame building. At 121 North Gross Avenue as a frame vernacular, but it also has some elements of the craftsman style, as you'll see from the
photos. And this is just showing the property on the 1919 Sanborn map. This slide is showing the picture of the
subject property from the Florida Master Site file. And this is the the east facade taken recently. The north
elevation, South elevation. The slide. Just giving you a little context of the area that the
subject property is located in. And again, the proposed project is to replace three windows.
Two of the windows would be obscured by the screened in porch up front, and then the
third window proposed to be replaced would be over here on the north elevation. The sliding glass doors that are proposed to replace the French
doors are located at the rear of the property, and would not be visible from the public right of way. So this slide is just showing you a little snippets of the product sheets
that are proposed. They would are proposing one over one, which is consistent with the original architecture of the structure. And here's some
photos from the applicant showing those original wood windows that they're proposing to replace. And these French doors, while I do not think
they are original to the structure, they are consistent with the architectural style of the building. And this is the window that would be visible
from the public right of way. You can see from the photo that that is the original wavy glass that that we've had back in
1919. So taken through our standards for review, obviously windows, doors and entries
would be relevant to this case. The proposed replacement windows, although our best option is always to repair rather than replace or replace
with original materials, the windows would retain the historic dimensions and replicate the style of the historic windows. Consistent with the original architecture,
the doors would not be consistent with the building's original architectural style. However, they would not be visible from the public right of way. The proposed project
with respect to neighborhood and district context, the proposed project is anticipated to have a negligible visual impact to the streetscape, as only one of those windows would
really be visible from the public right of way. And the other two being obscured by the screen porch and then the doors being at the rear of the
property, and our next relevant standard for review would be the architectural features. Again, we always want to repair rather than replace. And when
we do replace, it's preferable to replace with original materials whenever possible. And the proposed project would replace original wood windows
with vinyl windows. And so this is not the ideal solution. However, it would generally replicate the visual qualities of the original architecture.
And, you know, having those those impact windows would help ensure the, the longevity of the of the subject property.
With respect to the doors, again, sliding glass doors weren't around when the structure was constructed, but they would not be visible. And.
There would be a minimal visual impact to the district because of that, because you can't really see it from from the street. With respect to adhering to the Secretary of
Interior's guidelines, the project is not strictly comply with the the Secretary's guidelines, particularly that we would be removing
distinctive original materials. We always want to repair rather than replace, and then any alterations, you know, we try
to use original materials when possible. It would be possible. But we all know that wood, new wood windows are generally cost prohibitive for most people.
With respect to conformance with other city code requirements. Again, we're not strictly compliant with the goals, objectives and policies of the Comprehensive Plan.
However, the proposed project is expected to be constructed in compliance with the Land Development Code and the Florida Building Code, and.
Here's some just some snippets from the Design Guidelines Review manual stating that, you know, we, we, we don't want to use tinted glass. We always want to retain the style of
window whenever possible. We would prefer to, to have original materials for windows. But and then again, we want to
retain historic doors, but the doors would not be visible from the public right of way. With that. My recommendation is just
that the HPV review, the information provided in this presentation and the staff report, and should the HPV approve the project, I would suggest the following
conditions. Tinted glass would not be used and that the certificate of appropriateness would expire in three years of a building permit has not been issued for the project. The
project was publicly noticed and no responses were received. And with that, I can take any questions you might have. Thank you. Any questions for Carolyn?
Yes. Go ahead. Carolyn, on this one picture, there is not the balcony. The balcony I don't think was ever approved back in the 90s by the Historic
Preservation Board. Do you know whether it was or not? I am not sure that I know what you are referring to. The balcony or whatever they call it. They put
it on top of the roof. If you could please speak into the mic. We need to have this on record. Any other windows been changed in that house during the 90s? I do believe some of the windows
on the house are not original. I cannot, in fact, I know some of the windows on the house currently are not original. Was
this the house a year or so ago? There they. We approved the removal of a door up on the second level, and I think there was a small balcony. No, that actually was. That was a very
similar house though. Looks the same. It looks the same. Okay. Sorry. Same area. What I'm talking about here. Okay. I walked around the house twice,
did not talk to the property owners or any neighbors and. I'm a stickler for keeping the old glass in windows. When they
did the Ferguson building uptown, they threw them in the in the alleyway. They let it break and everything went in the trash. They're hard to find. Glass is hard to find. It's.
It's expensive to buy. And if you can get it, good luck. So that was lost. I hate to lose this, but I could see in around
the house. It hasn't always been kept in the historic preservation. What you go by. I'm not an expert, but I've
been around it and I can see some stuff and. The sliding glass doors are not with the
older historic homes. And when they changed the doors, did the French doors. I don't think that was approved either way back then may have been. So
what we have is, and maybe the attorney can shed light on this. Our dilemma here in Tarpon is the houses are so old, have been changed. So much will this
structure, if we approve this, will it still be a contributing structure or will they lose it? Or will we lose that as a contributing structure in the
historic district? I could say from from my perspective, with my knowledge and abilities, that the replacement of the
windows no, I, I think that ultimately we are moving away. We as preservationists are moving away from requiring us
the retaining the original materials for everyday houses that are contributing to a district not individually listed because it's, it's
really a balancing act. What we want is to maintain the historic fabric of our community and the look and feel of these historic homes. And
because we live in an area that is so prone to natural impacts to structures, there has been a movement from the Secretary of
Interior to be a little bit more lenient on things that will preserve the structures over time and make them more sustainable so that they can exist in the future. And that
would be for a contributing structure within a district, not something that's individually listed. And we have in Tarpon, we do have a
contributing altered category, which is is somewhat unique, but something like the wood windows, that is something that could easily be replaced in the future. If somebody wanted to
go back and do a full restoration, they could go get wood windows and the old glass and and restore it back to its its original condition. Well,
as this is more of a rehabilitation approach, trying to sustain the structure for the future, I do, and I'm asking these questions because I can see where we can set
precedents, where people are going to start coming. And as you whittle away and whittle away things, you lose your historic. You do. But that was
the fight we had with the old City Hall at town. But we won that one. The city did because they had to do the wood with the structure and keep the
glass. The other thing I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman. Everything will be consistent with what's there now. And they're not going to enlarge
anything or reduce any of the window sizes. And the doors are not where the people, the public, could see them. It's in
the backyard. And the the screen porch hides two of the windows and the other one. No one's going to be able to go up there and see what it is. And
they wouldn't even know. So. And it doesn't take away from the structural look of it.
Let's see. Elaborate. It says this project does not strictly comply with the Secretary standards. Would you like on page four of 124? Can you
elaborate on that a little bit? So to strictly comply with the Secretary of Interior Interior Standards, we would not be allowing the use of an unoriginal material like vinyl.
Vinyl did not exist back when the structure was constructed. However, as I mentioned, the Secretary of Interior is starting to move, particularly
in areas that are prone to natural disasters, as we are to allow some of these newer materials simply because it's
getting to be cost prohibitive to use original materials. In some cases, they're simply not available, and it's really more
of a bigger picture question of retaining the historic structure and and sustaining it for the future versus letting
it continue to deteriorate. So I would say that really, it's the, the use of the non original materials, which is what would make it not strictly
comply with the Secretary standards. This is very hard for me because you know how hard I am on historic historic
preservation. But when it's been mixed as it has now, Mr. Chairman. Against my judgment,
I'm going to go for this because there's no way you can correct it with what is already has been done. And it's sad. And we as a board at some point
if point if the attorney says we can do it, we need to have a work session with historic preservation on homes and buildings, with our building department, our construction
department, and get someone down here from Tallahassee to talk to us about all of this. Bring bring that up. When we're
having comments from from our board as. So this is individually eligible for the National Register. And with this change, it's going to stay
on the National Register. Or can it be taken away? Maybe the attorney can answer this too, I don't know. So the only time that that would be affected is
if somebody were to come in and resurvey the property and the alterations are not so great that they would deteriorate the
architectural integrity, integrity to a point where it would no longer be contributing to the district. Now, it may be up. It may be that it's been
altered to a point where it would no longer be eligible for any kind of individual listing, but it still would be contributing to the district
because again, my my standard is always is this something that can be reversed? Are we doing something irreversible? And we're not because, you know,
these windows, at some point in the future, somebody could go and replicate wood windows like the original ones and fully restore the structure. We're
not doing something that can't be undone in the future. So does the same go for the National Register District? Yes. So it would still be contributing to both the
national and the local historic district. Even if someone were to come and resurvey it, they would say these alterations have been made to the structure. However, the building itself
retains enough architectural integrity to still be considered contributing to the district. Okay, that's all I have for right now. Thank you,
thank you. Any other questions for Carolyn? Okay. The applicant. Are you the
applicant? Come on up. Over to the to the microphone over there. There you go. And then we'll need your name and
address. And then just kind of explain the even though we've heard what you want to do, just give us your side of it, but give us your name and address first. So my name is John
Coleman. I do live in Riverview. Okay. I've been in the business now for over 40 years. All right. I've worked on hundreds and hundreds of historical preservation homes. And the
last thing I want to do, and yes, you're right. I would love to be able to do the would, however, would is never going to give the structure support that are required with the
impact windows the way that they have to be today. I would love to be able to show my craftsmanship. I was trained by my grandfather who taught me how to take apart the weights
and redo it, but unfortunately that can't be done to replace the glass. You're never going to find lead glass anymore. That's just never going to be made ever again. So you've lost
that waviness that appeal. Trust me, when I do take out windows like this, I keep the glass as best I can. All right. I true love seeing these homes.
I wish I could personally afford them, but the upkeep and maintenance of them would bankrupt me. But they are gorgeous. Okay, so we only use
the product of p, g t, which is also registered with the Historical Preservation Society. I'm not going to do any of the changes to the interior
woodworking that is already there. Why mess with something great? We're going to be taking out the existing sash and putting in the vinyl frames and
sealing them. The only added thing, just like on this building, they did the metal cladding, which is going to give an additional performance value to hold against all of
the water. All right, less upkeep for everyone involved. Okay. As per the doors, you can tell that those doors had been
replaced sometime in the 80s. And no one has ever noticed. If you wanted me to go to a French
door system that's there versus what the customer has chosen, I would lose a little bit in what's known as the design pressure ratings, because the doors lower themselves. When
you have a slider in the interlocks and everything like that, it gives a little higher of a value against water infiltration. I'm not going to
ruin anything you have. The entire exterior will remain that shape that you see right now. The only difference is I'm going to have a metal cladding on it, which will be a bright
picture. If you even wanted me to use what's known as a PVC, which would give a wood grain texture to it, instead of it being a flat unit, I can
upgrade that. It would be a call that I would expect you guys to tell me whether or not what you would want. Okay, so
so you are confirming that the openings are all going to stay the same. Yes. So as Carolyn mentioned, if in 50 years a new
owner wanted to restore the house, they wouldn't have to worry about redoing openings or anything. You would remove sashes, you would be able to
remove the exterior cladding, remove all of the screws, cut the foam insulation that we put, push it out. And yes, I would love to be able to do it, but
like I said, it'll the wood will never handle the impact glass which is required in this area. Okay. And the, the sliding doors are going to be
going the same opening, same opening, no adjustments in size. We are doing a size for size change. Okay. And color. You're going to go with white for now
to match the other ones. Yes. Okay. Anybody have any questions for the applicant. Nope. Nope. Okay. Thank you.
Okay. Will we be getting a decision today or we're going to be voting now today. Yeah. So hang out. All right. I want
to discuss it a little bit more. You've already said quite a bit, which is great. But in order to do that, I'm going to need a motion one way or the other.
I'll make a motion that we approve this application. Due to the fact of the history of the House, the changes that have been made, and fitting it
in with strictly historic and the glass at this time would not be fair to the applicant, because too much is always already been changed. Well said. I'll second that. Okay, we have
a motion and a second. Chloe, you've got that. Okay, now we'll discuss if there's any more discussion. What do you
feel about the cladding that he's talking about? Having either a smooth finish or a wood grain finish? Is that something we need to deal with?
I'm not the applicant. I don't know what the how much money they want to spend. But I like your idea of the wood finish, as do I. Yes, because it'll
fall in and you wouldn't have a problem with that. Okay, good. Okay, great. Any other a vote on that we were discussing. And
then when we're done discussing, we're gonna vote, sir. So any other discussion on this item? No. Okay. Well, let's let's
call for a vote. No. If I could over the Slack part. Oh, we don't have to. No chair. If I could, if I could, if we could
perhaps revise the motion to approve with the conditions recommended by staff and the additional condition that the applicant consider the use of
the faux wood grain. Yes. Are you good with that? I'm very good with it. And you're good with that? Yes. Seconding. Okay, Chloe, you can fix that. Yep. I'm doing it now. All right.
Are we motion to vote? Okay, we'll still vote now. Miss. Yes. Mr. Cadena. Yes. Miss. Kaplan.
Yes, miss. Howlett. Yes. Chairperson. Burzynski. Yes. So it's been approved. Thanks for coming, I appreciate it. Let us
know. I'll bring you some lunch. Thank you, thank you. Okay. Okay. Now we have let me get to
the now board and staff comments. Carolyn, do you have any more comments about anything? I do not have any staff comments at this time. Okay. We could now talk about
anything if we want. If you want to bring up that business about having extra meetings, we could talk about that right now. If the attorney a work session.
I didn't explain it right at the last meeting. Right. Mayor. And we talked about it after that. Yes. You could absolutely have a work session. We just can't talk about individual
cases, understand, because those have the due process rights. But absolutely, you can have a work session and get some of this information that may help you in future cases. I don't know how the board feels
about it. Mr. chairman, are you I go to the library day. I read the historic preservation magazines. I read the old home, old house magazines. I read the
historic preservation of old homes, and I am. I wish the city would subscribe to those for us, but they don't. But I
know that in Saint Augustine. Of course, Charleston, South Carolina, is bigger and has more money than we do. But a
lot of these historic towns have work sessions. Every so often. I think Clearwater has had them before. Saint Pete in
Tampa, and they would come down from the state historic and talk about preservation of homes and things. And the public is invited to hear and
they need to. And I wish that we could have something like that. So because Tarpon is so unique that property owners would understand, I'm envious
of anyone who has an older home. They're beautiful. You don't get the architecture in them that in today's homes that they have. But not everyone understands that. When you buy
a historic home, you have an obligation to it. But I don't know how y'all feel about yeah, we've we've talked about that in the past, having some sort
of you're calling it a work session. That's that's fine. Whatever we want to call it. I guess what I wanted to do was have at least the board get
together to discuss not what we should be doing, but well, in a way, what we should be doing. Yeah. And we talked about this
over a year ago, Carolyn, is, is that something we could if if we appoint Anita as the point person to work, to work
with you, to put together, to put together some sort of session, some meeting, whether we make it public, maybe we do it with just us first. I think
it will be public. It would have to be public. Okay. That's fine. So what I would suggest we do have two cases for next month. So we will have a
meeting next month. But things tend to slow down a little over the summer. Okay, that'll be good. And if I can see that there's going to be a month where we're either just going
to have one case or no cases, then I could also see if perhaps our historic preservation officer for the county could come down and talk with us. He's an excellent
resource and has been very helpful. Let's try and make it when there's no case coming up, okay? I mean, it does happen. And usually there is a slowdown in the summer, one of the summer months where we don't
have any cases at all. So. All right, well, let's, let's, let's work on that. Okay. I can do that. We have been talking about it for a while. We have been talking about it. Okay.
All right. Great. Any any other comments from the board here? Okay. Then we are adjourned at
701. Thank you all. Thank you, Your Honor.