Right or wrong, present our cases and, you know, do so in a in a dignified manner. And what we do is we do it in grace. And
so just to let everybody know ahead of time that, that if you do not act accordingly, I will gavel you, as I did last last
month. In any event, bow our heads for a moment of silence.
Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Consent agenda. We have the minutes of last month's meeting
for approval. I'd like to hear a motion. I'll make a motion, Mr. Chairman, to approve the prior meeting. Months as written without changes. Is there a second? I'll second. Okay. Any
other discussion? All in favor? Roll call. Miss Weaver. Yes. Miss Swenson. Yes. Miss early. Yes. Mister Rocklin. Yes. Miss
Francis. Yes. Mister Zambellas. Yes. Mr. Chris Curtis. Yes. Okay, moving on to our quasi judicial announcement. I am going to let our attorney
explain what the quasi judicial announcement. Additional means for in this particular forum. And also to swear in any potential witnesses. This is a
quasi judicial proceeding where the Planning and Zoning Board acts in a quasi judicial rather than a legislative capacity at a quasi judicial hearing. It is the board's function to make
law. It's excuse me, it is not the board's function to make law, but rather to apply law that has already been established in a quasi judicial hearing. The board is required by law to make findings of fact
based upon the evidence presented at the hearing, and apply those findings of fact to previously established criteria contained in the Code of Ordinances, in order to make a
legal decision regarding the application before it. The board may only consider evidence at this hearing that the law considers competent, substantial, and relevant to the issues. If the competent and
substantial and relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has met the criteria established in the Code of Ordinances, then the board is required by law to
find in favor of the applicant. By the same token, if the competent, substantial and relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has failed to meet the criteria
established in the Code of Ordinances, then the board is required by law to find against the applicant. Before I swear everyone in. Mr. Chairman, can
we disclose any ex parte communications or conflict of interest by the board? Does anybody have any ex parte communications with the items that are presented today? There
are none. Thank you. Chair. If you're going to speak, please raise your right hand. Please stand. Please stand and raise your right hand. That's. That's on me. Please stand and raise
your right hand. Do you swear or affirm your testimony before the Planning and Zoning Board shall be the truth, so help you? Yes. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Council. Moving on to our first presentation is resolution 2020 5-05. And this is a companion. Okay. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. And this is a quasi judicial. Okay. Good evening, Pat Magness, planning
supervisor. This is a request for. Rezoning. For the shallow, what's called being called the
shallow family subdivision. The request. This property is located between North Highland Avenue and Keystone Road. And the. It's in two future land use
categories. The uplands are in residential, very low, and it has wetlands on site that are in preservation. The future land use map categories will not be
changing. The applicant would like to rezone a portion of this property that's in residential plan development. Rezone that to
agricultural culture so that the entire property is in agriculture. The whole property is about 46 acres in size. The
portion that's the subject of the rezoning is a total of about 32.5 acres. The RPD covers about 9.3 acres of that, and the
applicant is present to address this. So you all have seen this site before. This is what's some people popularly known as the
McAlpin property up off of. Keystone Road. I included in the staff report kind of a history of that property. On the second
page, it's kind of a long, long history of how it got annexed into the city and what it was previously used for. The borrow pit that that, you know, was a
commercial borrow pit for years. And so some of you may be familiar with it. So this in
just to, you know, need some land use designations. So again in the city residential very low. And then the green is the
preservation. The zoning is agriculture and residential planned development. The RPD is
expired. It was never built. It's expired. And this was before the Keystone Road
improvements were made. Since. Since that zoning was put in place, the county bought a portion of that property, as you can see on the aerial. They
developed them. A portion of that with stormwater handling for Keystone Road. So again,
that is an expired RPD. This is the county context. All that unshaded area on this map is all in unincorporated Pinellas
County. And as you can see this is this is basically the northeast area of our city. And surrounding that area is pretty much all residential rural in
Pinellas County. And then preservation that covers the wetlands. We have the place based area map in our comprehensive plan now, and
we're looking just in general, if you remember, this is just a general guide of where our transitional and future land use
areas are, are looking to go in the planning horizon. This property is located in the Agriculture Residential Estate
area. That northeast area of the city. And this is basically the property outlined in yellow that's being changed. This is
the 32.5 acres. And most of it, as mentioned, is agricultural. The RPD zoning is the portion that would be changed to agricultural. This is a portion
of the survey. You can see this this area with all the topography is the uplands on site. Over to the east is the
Borrow Pit and to the west is basically an the open area there is the jurisdictional wetlands
on site. Again, this is just the same survey and showing the zonings overlaid on the aerial
photography. The site itself, the outlined in yellow will be coming back to you as a site plan. The applicant has also
applied for site plan approval for a four unit estate type subdivision on this property. So the first step is to get that
zoning aligned with that estate subdivision that they're they're currently processing. That's under review by the TRC Technical Review Committee.
Again, we don't need to go over the property history. It is just to kind of touch on. This one's kind of hard to see. But but
this was used again for commercial borrow pit. Stockpiling of materials. Mulch. There were agricultural
activities on and off over the years. Goats and other types of activities like that. So it's
got a history to it. You saw this parcel back in 2021 2022 time frame. There was a 50 unit
planned development proposed on it. The Board of Commissioners denied that request. So. The
property remains under the same ownership that it did. And the total is again almost 46 acres. This portion for the rezoning is
just covering the proposed estate subdivision area. So the agricultural zoning for this area is consistent with the future land use map. The place
based area. Place based area map and with the comprehensive plan. As far as compatibility and available uses. I would say probably the two biggest things
with the with basically the down zoning from RPG to AG is we're going to restrict the uses. It opens up agricultural uses in this area. They really are kind
of accessory and small scale. I think we have a dog kennel nearby. We have limited horse, you know, horses and some of the
properties in unincorporated, including one adjacent. Those types of activities. Going from RPG to AG will limit the housing
product to single family detached, whereas RPG has the full suite of housing types. It will also significantly increase
the minimum lot size from 10,000 to 30,000ft■!S, and a lot with o 200ft■!S. I'm sorry, lot with te 200ft. So those are probably the
biggest changes. The full changes are outlined on page three of your staff report in that table. So we feel like this change is compatible and more
consistent with the area. Again this will promote efficient and orderly development. It follows that place based area and future land use pattern that we're
looking for through the 2045 planning horizon. And the property is currently served by city fire and emergency services
and law enforcement. We can serve it with solid waste. The rest of the service water, sewer and the adjacent roadways are all under Pinellas County. This
is relatively again relatively low impact to services because it's really a lower service area. This will also restrict
the amount of traffic going on to Keystone Road. If you remember, that's a scenic road with limited access. Pursuant to
the county's long range plans. And so this this portion of property is technically allocated 32 units. Again, the applicant will be coming back to
you for four units. So. It's really bringing it back in line with that future vision. Let's
see if there's anything I missed. So staff is recommending approval of this rezoning. The
TRC reviewed this on December 5th, 2024. The notice went out to 63 addresses. There was no public comment received. There
was one inquiry inquiry from a neighbor, which was the information was provided, but there was no comment. Are there any questions on this? Typically
we started on that end last month. This time we're going to start on this end. Thank you Pat. Just a few questions. So the on on the staff report
number seven for the Board of Commissioners denied the 50 lot residential. Planned development if I recall that was a I want to say 6 to 1 vote in affirmative
vote on the planning and zoning board. Correct. Or 5 to 1. I do remember the planning and zoning did recommend approval. I did not look up the check. Okay. I just remember there was one
dissenting vote. Okay. So with the subsequent sale is that I was under the impression that they because I know that that applicant had been to TRC like
17 times. So with the subsequent sale like they they're not that's not possible anymore. Obviously because of the sale. The five acres that the current
owner authorized this applicant to apply. I do know the applicant's representative is here, so he can talk about whether there is an actual sale in progress, and I don't have
knowledge of that, but but yes. So this rezoning went to TRC once and then that's all it needed under the conditional
uses for the current residential plan development to proposed. I see some of the new conditional use examples for excavation
kennels veterinary clinic. Does this include the current conditional uses. And then this is on top of that. Or does this saying that these are the only conditional uses that they could be applied for the proposed.
Yes. The conditional use is listed under agriculture would replace those would replace OPD. Okay. So like excavation. What kind of can you explain what
that like could look like. That would be like that would basically be the commercial borrow pit use. Okay. That's
what that authorized. And the question I had was when we when we had Merle's proposal, I think it was like right before his last meeting, you know, for his
last meeting, didn't we do the rezoning and the site plan and the like? Didn't we do all three like, at one time? I'm not sure
which you mean, Mr. Siemens. That was an annexation. Is that what you're talking about? The annexation. Right. With the site plan? Yeah. He didn't have a site plan. The rezoning goes
along with the annexation. So I think I think we did all of it at at one time. I mean, he can't really propose a site plan till he's in the city, which that
hasn't been adopted yet. Okay. And there were no other comments on here from TRC than just what's on here. No, the only outstanding issue from December
was that the applicant needed a legal description of the 32.5 acres to put with the ordinance. It took them a couple of months
to get that. So we, you know, and we were looking to get this rezoning in place so that the site plan could proceed to
hearing. Okay. That's it. Yeah. It was an adopted rezoning. Just want to go back on the excavation. So as I understand it, there's an existing borrow
pit in the condition to allow them to continue to use that borrow pit for excavating dirt, probably for sell that a
somewhat. I mean, they can propose that as a conditional use. And I will tell you, it isn't a staff report. But I
didn't really highlight it here. Let me just go back on on the remainder of the property that's not outlined in yellow. They are
proposing a residential planned development of 13 units that will also be coming to you. That's also under review at TRC. They really aren't proposing any
use of the Borrow Pit. I would venture to say that that Borrow Pit has been exhausted. They are going to use it as part of their stormwater handling. Since that
borrow pit was dug, the McAlpin family sold off the original home. So that's the gentleman. Just just say that they inquires
when things come up and he's kind of tracking things. Well the applicant is here. I haven't heard that that the current
owner plans to do any excavation. I would venture to say they've been trying to sell it. And of course, he the
applicant can address whether there's any proposed, but that would be quite a complex undertaking as far as a site
plan. If somebody were to propose that you. That's all I had. No no, no. Thanks, Pat, for
the background information especially, it seems there's more to the show behind the curtain with this currently, and would be nice to see it all at one time. As Princess may have
alluded to. But my question is the current RPD outlined there, is that where the four unit subdivision will take place, or
will be somewhere else on the property, to your knowledge? The four units. The four unit subdivision will be inside this yellow line. Okay. Right. Part
of it will be on the RPD. It's going to have. It's going to be built on the uplands. Okay. Which if you go to this drawing, all this topo goes down here,
right up through here and here. That's where the four units will be built. Okay, so this is more for the sake of unity and to increase the area of the
agricultural zoning. Yeah. And to retire the defunct RPD and to bring bring this area more in line with our future land use.
Thank you. I don't have any questions. No, I don't have any questions. But I see this rezoning as a positive change.
I'm sorry. So? So, Pat, we're talking about 717 potential units with the four. And then the 13 would be a phase two. Is
that. What is that what's happening? Well, it's a separate application, but that's what's currently proposed. Yeah. Okay. And what's the minimum lot size if it was rezoned at this point,
what becomes the minimum lot size to build on there to agricultural. It would be 30,000ft■!S. Okay. How does that
translate into acreage? An acreage is 43 560. So. Okay. I don't know what is that? You
know, almost any of the 17 homes doesn't necessarily max out the scope of that land. Well. Oh, no. So this this land is
allocated one unit per acre. Okay. I'm sorry, Pat, but let's be clear. What we're talking about is a current application. Yes. Okay. I know there's some
concern about the additional when they reapply for the additional units, but we, you know, let's keep our focus to this original application. And
then the concerns that we have with regard to the other density on the other would be on another application. I think we need to address it then instead of today. Yeah. And I'll just say
there would be no change with this rezoning to the allocated density under future land use. It's still one per acre. So the
entire property being 45.76 acres is allocated 46 units. And that would not change. Okay. That's that's all I have. Okay.
I only have a few questions I think. And density was one of my questions. But you're saying that the density for this particular application is four
units. The entire property. No no, no, this application for the yellow area, it's. 33. 32 units.
Sorry, I thought you said four for resident. Well, yeah, that's going to your point is that you there there is currently a proposal to build four that is
in process with technical review Committee and it will get to you. But right now it is not. Let me go back and maybe I cut you off too. Too soon. Yeah, but
from my understanding, your presentation, you're not. They're not talking about building 30 something units. They're talking about building four. And the density would be four. Or are we. Do we grant
them the four? And I just want to be clear. When we go to the density, maybe that's a question for the applicant. Because if they're looking at building a family compound okay. For four
units, that's one thing with regard to density. And then part two of their application would be on another date would be to
for 14 units at a at a would be if you want to call it part B. Yeah. Okay. The density the density does not change. So for the third the 32 acres it will
be 32 units. What will change is it'll only be single family and the lots will be 30,000ft■!S. Ad remember, they are not going to be able to build in the wetlands. And I probably should
have given you the upland acreage, but it would be very, very under agricultural zoning. I'll just venture to say there's no way they could fit 32 units
on this property, regardless of what they're proposing now. And the applicant can probably speak a little more to that. Will this require annexation? As you said,
part of it is an unincorporated. No, I was talking about the surrounding area. This entire property is annexed in. Okay. And if with regard to the
existing borrow pit, if that was something, they obviously would be more difficult to do in a site plan. But isn't that a separate application as well? A permit, if they were to propose
it, it would be a separate permit. Yeah, it would be conditional use and site plan. That would have to come back through the entire process. Okay. And the access for that
would would that be on the keystone or is that on the back road. The there's more than one access point. Yeah. The access
for this property outlined in yellow is currently proposed in the application reviewing to come off of North Highland.
Okay. Okay. Now that I've asked questions and everybody else has asked questions, we have round two. So I have I have one. Okay.
Sorry. Did I read somewhere Pat in your report or your materials? Forgive me. I was just trying to find it. That a
lot of the nature has already been disrupted in this area. Do you remember something like
that? Well, on. Let's see. On page two of my report, I described the what's been what has occurred on the property
itself over the years. Single family residence that still exists and was sold off. Borrow, excavation, farming and grazing operations. Stockpiling of
materials. From what we know, there is a still a large metal barn or storage structure on the
site. So yeah, it's a little bit degraded. I think just because it was used for agriculture and
other activities. Well thank you. Okay. With the applicant,
I'd like to make a presentation. Good evening. My name is Kauahi. I'm with Northside Engineering, located in Clearwater, 300 South
Belcher Road. I have been sworn in. Thank you for giving your time, talent and treasure to your community. It's invaluable.
Also, publicly, I would like to state that the staff's been wonderful. Love to be working with your staff at Ali Renee.
Just. Just loved him. To zoom in on the project. As Pat had stated. We what's before us at
Northside right now and we have presented it to the city is a whole site that's been divided in two parcels. Parcel to the
north will be considered Jallow family compound, and parcel to the south will be Keystone. Keystone subdivision. What's
before you tonight is merely the Jallow family parcel to the north. And as the chairman stated, the Keystone Subdivision
will be another project for another day which will come before you. So what we are here for is to rezone the RPD to
agricultural, and that is, generally speaking, staff driven. In other words, the city is trying to clean up the records to make the whole thing agricultural. We're not asking
for any density increase. We're just trying to clean up the records. That RPD that you see
is I'm going to say it's all of it actually is in the. Duke Energy easement. There's a Duke Energy easement that covers that
RPD. So we are not, generally speaking, are able to build any structures. We may be able to put roadway in which we will be
in the future across it, but it would have to be approved by Duke Energy staff. So but in
this, in this portion of the land, we're only proposing to build four units. And the four units are, as I had stated, is
for Jallow family. He has a couple of children and, you know, daughter, boy, son and so forth and so on. So he would like to make that his own
personal compound per se. The, the, the borrow pit that's been discussed is really a, a giant retention pond, basically that
we are going to be using for drainage. We're not planning on digging anything. It's already there. So we're just waiting to see the volume that it can
provide for drainage. And we'll be using it for both parcels. The site to the south just a little bit. Just, just just to
state just something quickly about that is going to Pinellas County for a driveway connection to Keystone Road. So we're going back and forth with the county
Board of Adjustment to address that. So that's again another project for another day. So our main access will be off of North
Highland. We are proposing to put a wall between the two subdivisions and possibly having
a gate for fire truck access. So Mr. Jallow would like to keep the two parcels separate. And that's basically one way to do
it. I just cannot remember any other concerns that this board might have had or might have. I may have heard, but if I missed
something, I would be more than happy to explain that. We'll start again on. I don't have any
questions right now. Thank you. I'm here. Thank you. Thank you. Nope. Nope. I do. Okay, so I'm
familiar with the Jallow family. And when I first started, said Jallow fellow family, I assumed that was when you say family compound, you know, I don't
think he's going to have any more kids, but but, but the question that I have for you is, you know, you're going to look at limit that to for residential
probably very nice residential units. Are you going to are they maybe this is a question for city for staff. Are they going to have to plat those four
units? I'm sorry. Yes. That would be platted. Platted. So once they are platted then those are not. They're set in stone, but you'd have to come back in
and do a lot more if you wanted to increase the density once they're platted. That that's not even on the radar. Okay. I'm just asking the question because you're presenting us four units for that particular large tract
of land, which I think is great to have that type of environment. But but. Well, that's why I'm asking if it's platted, you know, then. Absolutely. It's actually. And
we have submitted the preliminary plat with the with the project. Now, I'm glad you asked that question, because I remembered one other item that I
had forgotten to address, and that's the ownership. So Mr. Jallow right now has the property under contract, and he will be purchasing it once we
get once we get the I understand. Okay. I have no more questions. Anybody else based on what I said, I got one like I think I'm sorry. Could you
elaborate on your knowledge of the general family for the record? Well, well, actually, if you go to Keith Klosterman and 19, there's a car wash that's family owned, several that's
they have multiple business interest entities. Wonderful family. But that's, you know, it doesn't matter if they're wonderful or not. We've got to look at this from, you know,
independent eye. So I think you said you had a question. The parcel of land with the four units. Is that zoned agricultural? Yes. So when the four homes units go on, is that.
Yes. We don't we don't have to rezone this. We can leave it as is and still have the four unit. Does that mean that the four homes will get an agricultural exemption from a tax
perspective? We can look at no. It's an agricultural area. Well, I mean, if you have if you can throw goats and animals on it, I think you can possibly get some
credit, but I'm not really in that environment. Yes. Yeah. I, I believe that's mostly for
size. Yeah. Agriculture is the primary use. You're not just what little I know from my last job in Hernando County. Yeah. A lot of people were planting pine
trees on old golf courses to get exemptions. Yeah, it's got to be, I think, the primary use. But I'm not. Tax cows. Tax cows. That's. I'm sorry. That's that's
the next. Sorry. That's next. I, I do have one more. So okay. I know that the Segway is more like a retention pond. Do you
foresee as the engineer or that when they go to do the other development that they'll need fill for the foundations? If
they need fill, let me just give you a general response. They will not be excavating on this property. In other words, let me let me just back up. Excavating
is a is a is a word that I probably shouldn't use. They will not excavate for a retention pond, but they may excavate maybe the top of the hill just to make a smooth
roadway. So it wouldn't say that they will excavate for the purposes of landscaping berm banks, but they won't be excavating for the use of
additional fill for where they're going to be building. Okay. Okay. Any other. I remember that that that pit I
think goes back 45 years or better. So in any event, I think it's capped out. And I think as long as I've been alive. Yeah. I'm just kidding. I'm older at
this point. I'm going to go ahead and close. Well, is there any public comment with regard to this? Have we have we received anything with regard to
this? No comments. No. Okay. At this point I'm going to go ahead and close the public aspect of this application and open it up
for the board for any discussion. Let's start with a motion. Then we can have a discussion. I'll make a motion
to approve the resolution. 2020 5-05. I'll second it. Okay. Now, is there any discussion on this?
Okay. Let's roll. Call, please. Miss Weaver. Yes. Miss Swenson? Yes. Miss Earley. Yes, Mr. Rockline. Yes, Miss. Frances?
Yes, Mr. Zimbalist? Yes. Mr. Chris Curtis. Yes. Thank you. Okay, on to our next matter on
the agenda. Let me get back to the agenda. Okay. Next item is resolution 2025, Dash 23. This
also is quasi judicial conditional use for the agricultural use of a pet miniature cow. Staff Ali Quinn, principal planner, planning and
zoning. Again, this is a conditional use request under resolution number 2025. Dash 23 for the property located at 616 North Florida Avenue. The
property is 0.33 acres in size, has a current land use of RL residential low, and a current zoning of R1 hundred single family residential. The applicants are here today requesting conditional use
approval to allow an agricultural use on their property for the purpose of allowing a miniature cow as a family pet. Now I'm going to let the applicants provide more details about miniature cows and
what goes into raising and having one on their property. But a few highlights are when full grown, they can be between 32 and 48in tall. They can either have horns or not have
horns. The applicants indicated that they would be adopting one without horns. When they are not being used for breeding or for meat production, their diet can be supplemented with hay and
grain, which is what they're proposing to do, which reduces the area that's necessary for grazing. And then, depending on the temperature, they will drink between 3 and 9 gallons of water
a day. The property again is located off of North Florida Avenue. It's outlined in red here on the screen. Surrounding zoning is R 100 and R 100 A, both of which are single family
residential zoning districts. The area is primarily single family residential, with the exception of the Tarpon Springs Middle School, which is south of
the property. Off of Sunset Drive. Okay. The R 100 zoning district allows agricultural uses with conditional use
approval. If the underlying future land use category is either. Residential. Rural, residential, suburban, residential low, or residential urban. Again, with this property having the future land use
category of residential low, that is what is allowing them to come before you today for the request for conditional use. The Land Development Code has a fairly detailed definition for agriculture, which is shown here
on the screen, but within that definition it does call out animal raising and grazing, and within that it states that animal raising and grazing means the keeping of one or more animals commonly associated with
agricultural use, but not including but not limited to cows, horses, pigs, goats, sheep, ducks, ducks, turkeys, chickens, geese, roosters, ponies and other similar animals, and specifically does
not include any sort of typical household pets. Within the city's municipal Code of Ordinances, which is something separate than the Land Development Code, there is a section that addresses animals.
Back in 2013 that was amended to allow residential properties to have up to four chickens on their property. Other than chickens, the city does not allow any sort of farm animal on
residential properties that are less than two and a half acres in size. This is fairly inconsistent with the land development code, because there is no minimum size requirement
for agricultural uses. This is a look at the survey of the property. The existing house is situated to the front. There's a large detached garage towards
the back of the property. There is a existing six foot tall PVC privacy fence which is enclosing a majority of the property. It's the blue shown here on the
screen. There is an existing swimming pool and that is separated from the rest of the backyard with a four foot tall fence shown here with orange. The applicants have indicated
that the miniature cow would be able to freely roam throughout the majority of the backyard, with the exception of the pool area. They have also indicated that they would be constructing a barn style shed that would
provide shelter to the cow. That structure would be required to meet any sort of applicable zoning or building code requirements, and would require a permit depending on the size of the structure, which is
anything above 100ft■!S. When looking at your conditional use criteria, it is in conformance with the Land Development Code. Again, the proposed shed would have to meet any sort of
applicable zoning and building code requirements. And this was reviewed by the Technical Review Committee back in their February meeting. When looking at the surrounding area and looking at
compatibility, the property is in a developed residential area. A typical agricultural uses such as crop production, forestry, animal breeding, training and stabling can have significant impacts on surrounding
properties depending on the intensity of the operation and the context of the area in which it's located. The proposed request is limited to one farm animal intended to be a family
pet, so it's a different context and situation than a typical agricultural use. However, farm animals can create odor and noise that can cause potential nuisances to neighboring
properties. The applicant is aware of this, and they did provide a waste management plan as well as a grooming plan, which was provided with your application materials, and they can provide more details about
that when they have their time to speak. The are also some existing features on the property to help provide some screening. The privacy fencing that's existing, the positioning of the structures on the
property as well as there are several mature trees. To provide some screening of the animal. May help to minimize some of those impacts that we discussed.
This is an aerial photograph. Oh dark to see here. But the property oops. The property is outlined here in yellow. This property, as well as several properties on this block, but
primarily the central properties, are much larger than a lot of the surrounding properties. They're about a third of an acre in size. And you can see that there are some dense foliage with mature trees
providing some screening. But again, looking at surrounding context, it is a residential area, so it needs to be taken into consideration. The Tarpon Springs Middle School again to
the south off of Sunset Drive. As far as consistency with the comprehensive plan, although the RL future land use category is intended for lower residential
density, the Land Development Code does recognize that in some situations, agricultural uses might be appropriate in the R 100 zoning district. The conditional use process allows for this in-depth review of a
request to determine compatibility, and it allows for you guys to make potential reasonable conditions to help lessen that impact to the neighborhood. The 2045
Comprehensive Plan that was just recently adopted does have a policy in the future land use element that recommends reviewing the Land Development Code, permitted and conditional uses to support urban
agricultural uses. However, the policy does not address raising of farm animals in urban settings. It's more so focused on urban crop production. You know, community gardens, local
food production and things of those nature. The site is not located in the historic district, nor on an environmentally sensitive, sensitive site. And the applicant's waste management
plan helps to address potential concerns with nutrients produced by the animal waste. When looking at the adjoining property values again being that the property is primarily in a
residential area, that is something that we have to take into consideration. The property will continue to be a single family residence, and the proposed use would not require any modifications to the
property aside from the structure to be a shelter for the cow. And that is a similar structure that you would see on other residential properties. Potential nuisances that are associated with the farm animal in a more urban setting, such as
noise and odor, should be considered. However, this is really an intangible measure of impact on actual property values over a long period of time. The existing features that I discussed earlier, the privacy
fencing, positioning of the structures on the property, the mature vegetation, as well as the limitation of one miniature cow on the property does help to minimize that impact. So based
on the information that we have available at this time, we do believe that property values will not be significantly affected. And lastly, touching on public health and safety and welfare, being that the property
is fully enclosed with a six foot fence. It will contain the mini cow to the backyard of the property. They have provided a waste management and grooming plan to help mitigate some of the concerns that are typically
associated with a farm animal, and with all conditional uses. The board must review the proposal with the applicant and the public with all their comments, and consider any
potential conditions that are deemed necessary. With that, staff does recognize that this is. There are some unique circumstances with the requested conditional use should the board
recommend approval. We do have two conditions that we are recommending. The first is the agricultural use is limited to the raising of one miniature cow on the property. No other farm animals or agricultural
activities that are specified in the definition of agriculture would be permitted. And then the second is any type of commercial activity that would be associated with the miniature cow. On the property would be
prohibited, so no paid visitations, parties or photography sessions would be allowed. The application was properly noticed. There were 79 mailed notices. We received one
response that was included in your packet prior to going out, and that was in opposition of the request. Since then, we have received four additional letters that were provided to you prior to the meeting, two of which were in opposition and two were
in support of the request. With that, I'm happy to answer any questions since we started here last time. We're going to start
on this end this time. Okay. So. Do we. Do we know, is this an adopted animal or is it something you're purchasing? How
how is it that this can can can the. I think the first part is questions to the, the staff. And then when the applicant has a presentation. We don't know the
answer to that yet. Is there any restriction for other. For other residences in that area to ask for the same? Rezoning? Is it is
it a limited zoning or can everyone ask for this? No. So it's not a rezoning of the property. It's a conditional use. So it's something specific to this property that they are asking to do on the property. So
it still remaining residential zoning in any property that has the same zoning in the R 100 district, they can request a conditional use for an agricultural use if they have an
underlying future land use of one of these four uses, they could come through the same process. They would have to come before the board for the same review, and we'd have to look at
the property just because one application may be appropriate in one location, it may not be appropriate in another situation. So you have to look at them individually. Okay.
That's all I have. Okay. Okay. I had a couple of questions. One was the fence privacy fence. I believe these animals could
weigh approximately 500 pounds or so. Is that correct for a mini cow, or do I have to wait on that? I'll let the applicant talk about the specifics. As far as the fence, I know it's a
privacy fence, but I did read somewhere that maybe you need to make sure that's a little bit stronger than our normal privacy fence. Okay. Secondly, I thought
I had read somewhere on here that the cow would be able to roam in the back, but also be able to go in the front with somebody with him. And is this
the I know this house and I know where it's at. The fence goes up, doesn't go in front of the house. So I'm wondering, will they take this cow in the front of the house? Or maybe I have to
ask them that too, right? So based off of the exhibit that was provided with the applicant application, the cow would be able to freely roam within the area that I have within the blue
line. And they indicated under supervision. So I'm assuming when they're with the cow and with proper restraints, I'm assuming they would be able to
have it in the front area. But they can talk about the different their plans. Let's
see. And. Maybe they can answer this. But they did say they had many dogs. And I did read that many cows are pretty, pretty
friendly and easygoing, but I don't know how many dogs. I could ask them, how many dogs they have and whether or not they're all going to get along. And the waste is of concern to me, and I have no idea. I'm a
city girl, so I don't really know how noisy a cow can get. And I read that as long as they get their attention or whatever, they're not that noisy. But if a bunch of dogs are chasing it,
who knows what can happen. But okay, I guess I'll. And I am happy that it's a pet. There won't be any milk or any of
those things with it. Okay, it's an interesting city girl, I don't know, was there any mention of or any prohibition on
breeding anything like that? I know other things were talked about in the reading materials, but didn't seem to be prohibited. Well, within the definition, it doesn't
specifically prohibit anything of that nature. They are not proposing to do that based off the application. So I don't I don't think they're intending to do that. And we are also recommending condition that
they're limited to one cow on the property. And I don't think they want multiple cows. And I know we can ask the applicant, but was there any indication of
how big these many or small, these many cows are as far as height, they can be between 32 and 48in tall? Yes. Weight wise,
I'll let them weigh that. So up to four feet. Thank you. Thank you for a very unique presentation. Ali. Very well explained. My only question, and
it might be directed to counsel, is how conditional can a conditional use be as far as a trial basis or a time frame for
assessment, especially by the neighbors, because between noise and odor, there can be factors that are affecting and they may not be and they may be well managed. But I think time will
be the tail for that. So I don't know how conditional or can, if approved, be rescinded. The special use if need be. The
answer to that is probably not. So once you grant it, it's allowed. It runs with the land. Okay. Thank you, thank you. Next, if I could just follow up
with that too. You also are able to place conditions on the approval that you that are reasonable with the request that, you know, you feel would have to that would mitigate
potential concerns that you have, which is what we have requested here. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Zambellas. So I look at the
conditional use your microphone on please. So I see breeding there and breeding. Can that be
removed if they're saying one animal and which do breed, they can have a litter and that litter could take weeks months maybe. Can you refer to me
where, where you're in your, in the proposed on. Oh look where it says the property is developed residential typical agriculture such as crop production, forestry, animal
breeding. So the applicants applying for one. Yeah. So in that explanation I was I was just referring to typical agricultural uses for comparison
and to what is being proposed, which is basically one farm animal that's intended to be a family pet. So not for animal breeding, but you could add a condition if you want very
specific conditions that the animal could not be used for breeding. That's my question. Yes. That you could. Yes. Okay. My second question under the
current zoning, is there any regulations as to how many animals you can have under the current zoning without the conditional use? So that would go to the municipal code and it
talks. You look at the household pets, I believe it's four. Is that right Pat for. I believe
it's by type. Well I'd like to know. Yeah. Pat's going to. Look
that up for you. Yeah I'm just trying to find so. Household pet. Not limited to dogs. I
don't know if there is a limit on what other what other definitions for household pets definition household pet would
include dogs include but not limited to dogs, cats, marine and freshwater tropical fish, small non-venomous reptiles up to eight feet in length.
Hamsters, gerbils, hedgehogs, guinea pigs, tarantulas, rabbits and birds. So there is no limit as to how many of those you can
have. If I find one, I'll let you know. Okay, any more questions? There's usually a kennel definition that you can't
have too many because it becomes a kennel. Yeah. That's all. All right. Thank you. Ali, did you see that this was application
was fairly inconsistent with the land development code. Not necessarily the application. I, we were pointing out that so you have the municipal code of ordinances that addresses
animals, and then you have the land development code, which is the use of your land in the code of ordinances. It talks about. You can't have farm animals on residential property within the city unless it's two and a half
acres in size. The land development code does not specify a minimum size for agricultural use, so we are just pointing out that there's an inconsistency there. Okay, thanks. Yes, sir. I have a few
questions. To the extent that they this thing was approved, does that impact their real estate tax at all? There's no tax cow, so to speak. I would
not assume so, but that is outside my purview. Okay. So and to the extent that there's an odor or noise problem, if this thing got approved, we have code enforcement that can address
those issues. Would that be a fair statement. Yeah okay. And there's also animal control okay. I'm just trying to some of the concerns that the other board members had presented. You
know, when we talked about the fence, if you look at any ranch or everything, they don't have a full fence. They have posts and wires and that typically that's sufficient enough to corral
whatever those type of animals or cattle. And so with regard to breeding, if they if they were to breed, they would have to actually if you've got a
miniature sometimes you, you would look to breed it. They would have to remove that that animal to a breeding place to breed it because they're only allowed one animal. Okay. Yeah.
And then I assume when you're not going to breed on premises, take it off for sure, okay. Any other questions based on mine or
anybody else's at this point, I'd like to if the applicant can step down your name address, please. I think you've already been sworn. Yes. Okay. Hi, my
name is Sean Nelson. Property address is 616 North Florida Avenue in Tarpon Springs. I have a little statement for you guys. And then if you guys have questions, I'm more than happy
to answer all of the ones that you guys have. So in front of you you might have 4 or 5. I last I heard it was four comments from neighbors, two of which are neighbors next door on either side of our property that
would be most directly affected, and two in opposition, the ones that are directly to either side of us have both sent in letters saying that they are not opposed
to the proposed. The cow. One of the opposition letters is so far away that I'm not even going to address it, because it's literally like, it's like a corner of their property was
probably within the 500 foot radius because it's you can't even see it from our house. However, there is one. And I'd like to specifically address the socialism concept comments of
the occupants at 609 North Florida. I'm a federal law enforcement officer and I risk my life every day for the community. I do it because I love this country, and for
anyone to implicate that I don't love this country or that I want a socialist society is ludicrous. I would serve this country and I would gladly lay my life down for it. So for
that, that's that that comment, it was very offensive to me. I worked my butt off every day to keep you guys safe, keep my family safe, and that's that. In
regards to some of the other comments, we're not asking to change any of the rules. I researched this with the city code before starting this process. I spoke to Ali and to our specific zoning allowing the agricultural conditional use. If
you guys approve it, and cows are directly named. As Ali also stated, along with all of the other animals that she stated in her presentation, there are other neighbors that I know that
have had chickens approved without problem. There's also been a couple goats, from my understanding, that have been approved within the city limits. It seems like the most common complaints are noise, flies and
manure. So let me address those. Specifically, we have done our due diligence to minimize the impact to our neighbors as much as possible. There are farm fly traps available that can be put on the property to mitigate that
concern. Also, this is a pet and not a traditional farm animal. It will get baths and regular grooming, which should significantly decrease if not eliminate, the attraction of unwanted pests. I have found and has provided in the waste
removal plan. Airtight containers for manure storage to minimize, if not also eliminate, the smell caused along with the regular disposal of the waste on my own dime, so that it should
not cause impact. And as for the noise, because of my job, my wife who has to put up with my job is always at the house because we have four kids and they need to go here, there and
everywhere. And so she isn't afforded the opportunity really, to work outside the house with the number of kids that we have. So she's always there. So if for some reason the cow got upset and loud or whatever, it's not
like there wouldn't be anybody there to tend to whatever need that it would have. We also own several dogs, as was mentioned, and we've been here now for several months, and none of our
neighbors that we know of have ever complained about the smell of the dogs or the noise of the dogs, because we are very on top of our animals. And I hope that that gives some reassurance to
the board that we would do everything in our power to help keep that not being a problem. Should you guys approve the cow allowance? As for the area required for a smaller farm
animals, we've spoken at length to several farmers who have assured us that large acreage is not needed for these animals because of their size. Due to the type of grass in Florida, there is not enough nutrients to
sustain cows specifically. So the grazing thing is always an argument that gets presented because you need acreage for cows, but we're not going to use it for meat or milk or anything like that. So what they informed
us and what they advised us to do was to supplement with grains, vitamins and hay to give them the proper nutrients in one farm. In specifically, they have
ten acres, lots of grass. They supplement the exact same way that I just stated with grains, vitamin and hay because their cows don't want to graze on the grass because it's not healthy
enough for them. On another side note, and this is kind of somewhat relevant, but not really. My wife has already started discussing with Sunset Elementary with their school counselor about the possibility
of having the cow brought to the school for therapy for kids with disabilities, behavioral issues, or just for comfort. Once we get that, if we can get a certification for the cow and we can work through the logistics
of that with the school, and they seem to be on board with looking at that possibility due to the proximity of how close we are to the school, which is one
full block to the north of it, it would be easy to develop the program if we got your blessing. We understand that there are restrictions with this. We do not plan to breed this cow. One
cow can't really breed one cow. I mean, if we ever wanted to do anything where we would have to take it off property and have it serviced by a vet, it would not occur at the property. We don't
want the noise associated with birthing a cow. We don't want multiple cows, which I don't want multiple cows, trust me, but don't want any more headache than I need. And we don't want
to disrupt our neighbors. We would do everything that we could possibly to protect the property and the surrounding community, and we just want to work within the confines of the existing code and not violate
any of the code, and just use our property within the confines of what is allowed, which is why we presented it this way instead of just, you know, being somebody else who just goes out
and it's like, screw it, I'm going to get a cow and throw it on the property. Like, wanted to go through the right steps with you guys to make sure. And obviously because of my job, I can't really skirt the rules.
It's kind of an important thing with what I do. But yeah. Any questions? Thank you. I'm going to start at this end. I don't have any questions. Thanks. I do appreciate that you followed the
rules and applied Isabella's. No, no question, no questions. Thank you very much for your your explanation. You sound like you would be and have been a
responsible pet owner. That was my only concern was this is a little out of the box as far as veterinary care and things like that and conditions, and I, I would just ask that you adapt
and graduate as needed should situations arise. Obviously you have the blessing of your adjoining neighbors, which is a big plus. I've had up to six dogs at home so noise, you know,
they can be worse than a flock of anything. So I it sounds like a great idea. You have the possibility of expanding the benefit to the community with
the schools and stuff. So I commend you for thinking outside the box and acting outside the box. And thank you for your service. Yes. Appreciate it. Yes, ma'am. I would thank you
for your service as well. Could you tell us which agency you work for? Yes, I work for Homeland Security Investigations with the Department of Homeland, homeland, Homeland Security Investigations with the Department of Homeland Security. So I'm a special agent with
them. So we do transnational criminal organizations. So we're the ones trying to get the cocaine, heroin, fentanyl, child pornographers, predators, trafficking victims, money
launderers, gangs, cartels, like basically all the high level stuff out of the streets and all, you know, out of our communities. Thank you, thank
you. My next question why not just a big dog? We have big dogs. Why do you need a little
cow? It comes from a therapy standpoint. My God, please, please come up. Say your name, I think. Have you been sworn? If not, we will swear you I'm not. So please be sworn. You swear or
affirm your testimony before the Planning and Zoning Board shall be the truth. So help you? I do. Okay. Your name please. Okay. My name is Carrie Nelson. Sean's
wife, oh, Corinne Nelson. Sorry. My real name. So going off that my one of my sons and I, we both have ADHD, amongst other issues
that he has, which has presented issues along the way. I started doing dog fostering and started rescuing dogs when we lived in California. I had never seen
anything change the child that it just the way that it gave him something that was soothing to him. So that's where dogs came into play. And I've always had a
love for horses were always very soothing to me. Now our property cannot have a horse or a horse. Stable cows were also very close to my heart, and I started
spending time at local farms up in Webster Ocala area. And again, it kind of changed myself and my son just seeing the interaction. And it's just
something I've always wanted to pursue, and we're not in a position to be able to move around for his parents. His father is severely disabled, his
mother's ill, and they live up the street from us. So we're in a place to stay where we can help care for them and keep our their grandkids the only grandkids they have close to
them. And so through doing the research, I asked them, would this be something we could ever do? You know, someday I'd love to own a ranch. Someday I'd love to have not a whole farm, but a
mini farm. You know, something that we can grow old. And the kids, their kids, so on. So I found that as we started doing. Yeah, as we started doing
everything and seeing how the cow kind of was soothing to both, like our whole family, it just became kind of, let's see where we can go with this. And
we did find a cow. He's not ours, unfortunately. Yet we have to go through the proper steps. But he is a polled steer, so he cannot make babies and he does
not have horns and he's a micro mini, so he will probably be only about 37in and full grown. He had his own issues. He was a bottle baby, which is actually
good for us because he only ever knew really. Human interaction. The farmers fed him. The cow didn't feed him. She wouldn't. She actually licked him raw where he had no fur left. He was
a special case and so it was hard for them to sell him. And so we started visiting every week. Every weekend we would go visit this cow and we just became attached to it. So we're like, okay, if we were able to
ever do this, the farmers were like, we want you to bring him home like he he would be perfect for your situation. So that's where we are. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Just one quick
note. In one of the complaints, it was like, why don't you move to farmland? Because of my job, I'm required to be within 50 miles of a response radius for work so that when the literal
poop hits the fan, I can actually get to places fairly quickly. And I work in Pinellas County, and my main office is right next to the airport in Tampa. So where I live gives me
a good radius to be able to respond north to Pasco, out to Tampa, or to South County within a quick period. Thank you. Any more. So you mentioned it was a
micro mini. How how much do they weigh? So based on it, it's kind of a range because depending on how tall they get and how much weight they put on, the range is
between 3 to 500, depending on how much it eats, how big it, how tall it grows, and everything else. But we specifically targeted looking at animals that do not grow very high so they can't get very
heavy. Okay. And you mentioned that just like any other pet you would have, you wash it all the time. Yeah. I just have a question. How do you wash it, you know, with a hose or. Yeah, you just take a little
attachment, you put the soap in it and you just spray it down and dry it off. And so my other question was have you purchased the cow already? Well, technically it doesn't sound like you purchased it, but you
have leaned that way. I don't know, that's the only questions. Thank you. Oh, no, I did have that in front of the house. Would you really take that out
to the front of the house and then walk around with it? I know she's going to take it to the school, so I should answer that question anyway. If you have a big pooper scooper. So we do
have access to a trailer so that we can get it to and from vet visits and things of that such. And if we did a program with the school therapy program that we
can get it to and from. But he would be leash harness trained, halter trained. So since he was a bottle baby, they would bring him around and he would follow them around. And you basically
put a little like, halter like noose type thing around their nose in their head, and you just guide them that way because it gives you the most leverage for the animal. But so it's kind of
trained like a dog. Yeah. More so than if it was just a cow that grazing out in the pasture. This is kind of like in a way more domesticated animal, the way it's raised on the bottle,
baby. So one last question then, like horses in a parade, will it have like a little, you know, diaper or something when you're walking around outside? I would
think that we would. Yeah, I would think that. Well, so depending on the size right now it's kind of like a Chihuahuas
turds, so to speak, so small. So as they do grow, they like they call them cow pies. They can get about this big. So you have a shovel and like basically a dog
poop bag of a bigger size. Could you do the bag? I think that a small horse bag could probably fit around the waist in the
back. I don't know if people have used them and I could actually ask that because one farmer that. Yeah, yeah. The reason I, we actually came up with the idea for the school thing is because I knew of a
farmer that did that with a polled steer of his. He brought it to an elderly community, and that's why he had to have no horns. So I'll have to ask how he did that, how he managed if
it had to go potty. So thank you. Anything else? Oh, yeah. I just we'll come back. Well, your wife kind of turned me. It
wasn't a big fan of this, to tell you the truth. So have you looked into, you know, the proper vet for a farm animal? Is
it something? You okay? And you do realize that that that that cow's hooves are going to make a mud pit of your backyard? Yeah. Okay. To a certain degree. I
mean, like I said, I haven't noticed it be a major problem on the properties. And we do have quite a bit of. Gravel area. For
their hooves. Pavers. Yes. So which hopefully will minimize that as well. Are your dogs pretty social? Will they interact with this animal? Yes. And we've actually been bringing
one at a time over there to socialize. We do have a Frenchie who we probably won't bring around him unsupervised. If this whole thing did happen, but the
other the big ones were the were our concern. So we brought them and everyone's gotten along great. Like I said, the farmers have large dogs and he's used to
it. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, I guess it's my turn. First of all, again, thank you for your service. You know,
the people like you and our local law enforcement, they. You know, I'm very, very fond of our first responders. Mr. Mathis.
Mathis knows that fond of me especially specifically, I don't have any questions, and nor do I have any comments. I just when I looked at this application, it
had a lot of questions. But you answered most of them, like, you know, whose car does the pet get in when you got to take it to the zoo? But you you answer that
one. And I didn't know if you were going to get rid of your lawn and have a couple. That was a different. But in any event, I'm going to open it back up to
any follow up questions. I think you had one. I, I did, I just you know, I feel the same as, as my colleague down here when she
said your wife harmed her, she termed me as well. She has that nature. You know, the you know, the whole story. I understand,
but I'm just hoping. My question is, do you understand our reluctance? Of course. That's why we went through the process. We wanted to come and talk to you guys, and it's one thing to
put a piece of paper through the thing. It's a whole nother thing to talk to the person behind it, because you don't always get the full story. Just from reading a document like this isn't something that we were just
like, hey, let's just do this. Like we spent a lot of time researching and putting things together and talking with Ali and going through all the other things to try and reassure
everyone that, like, we understand that there's a burden on us to not disrupt the community and we have no intention, nor do we want we don't want off neighbors. We like our neighbors. They're
great. I mean, we have our neighbors here with us. We don't we don't want to ruin you. You understand? That's only part of it, right? No, no, of course we have to worry about the guy next door who wants a flock of
peacocks. Okay, let's. Let's move on. Let's move on. Any other. Any questions? I do have one question. Okay. Have you at all spoken with your homeowners insurance? Because I know they're getting tight on types
of dogs and dogs for all liability issues. Have you? I mean, just wondering what they would think. I haven't talked to them, but because this isn't a
typical farm animal that the farm thing doesn't really apply in terms of. No, but how okay, they're already turning down people that have dogs. If you
have a dog that has a propensity. I'm just saying if there's any questions relevant to the application, well, it is okay. Well, okay. It isn't I
don't know. Well. Unless there's other questions. Is there any. First of all, I want to take a notice and into the record as to
the letters that were received to be admitted into the record. I don't think we're going to I don't want to read them into the record. I just want to take the notice that they are of the
record. That way they will be an attachment to the minutes. Okay. Any public comment? Thank you guys. Thank you. Don't go too far in case there's any
rebuttal. Yes, ma'am. While we're waiting for that, I could not find a limit for the number of pets, dogs and cats, but we
are subject to our municipal code subjects. The city to the county's animal control ordinance, which has voluminous standards for care, manner of
keeping, neglect, abandonment, cruelty to animals. Thank you, thank you. I'm going to limit comments, public comments to four minutes. So please state
your name and your address. My name is Sia and I live on 1503 East Tessier, directly behind this family. I just came up
here. I just want to say first let me preface this by saying that I'm not looking for harassment or retribution for speaking up, but I'm concerned about the smell of the cow
manure and the flies that it will definitely attract. I know that they have quite a few dogs. We hear them a lot. We don't say anything because we want to be
good neighbors. I would also like to address the welfare of the cow. Cows are social creatures. They don't like to be alone. They do better in pairs.
And I don't think that there's enough room in that side yard for two cows. I worry about the welfare of the cow. I'm wondering what they'll do during the hurricane season. What kind
of shelter that they'll provide. Our backyard abuts right up to theirs, right at the end of the backyard, and we have a fence that's. It's wooden and it's
old. I don't know how strong it is. And I just want to finish by saying I like cows. I'm not against cows. But if I really wanted to live in a farming
atmosphere, I probably would have chosen a property on Keystone. Thank you for listening. Thank you. Appreciate
it. Any other comments? Again, you're limited to four minutes. Please state your name and your address please. Leslie Schisler, 1107 Sunset Drive. I'm around
the corner approximately three yards to three yards away. I have some of the same concerns, obviously, as Mrs. Privy. Thank
you for your service. Your story is very endearing. I love animals, the notification just seeing my cow struck my heart and I was instantly intrigued.
But thinking of the realities of it is a different thing. Hurricanes. Heat of the summer. Dear Lord, help us all in the heat of the summer. I know you
haven't been here that long. I don't know your personal story or experience with the heat or hurricanes in Florida. It's excruciating and I would never want to see an animal suffering
out in that heat. Another concern is safety for the children, and the animals in the neighborhood. Say they were to
halter him and other animals are around, and they're not used to that. They're instinctual creatures. And they you don't always know the behavior or reaction of someone else's
animal, which is scary. I've seen it. You seem like responsible people done your due diligence, but I have concerns as far as this. What would it
be? A conditional. A conditional use. Use. Your comment was very valid to me that could we give this a time frame? I would never want to see you get an animal
and have to get rid of it, God forbid. But if the neighbors start experiencing or start having smell issues, I mean, I've been in that property before. You bought that house
and it's very it's mostly cement. You got a pool, you got I mean, it's very limited. Not that he needs a lot of space, but they should have a minimum of a half to a full acre, even
if they're not grazing their social animals, they get around. I wouldn't ever want to see him get. Florida Avenue is a main artery in the west side of
Tarpon. Traffic alone would be break your heart to if anything were to happen, but thank you for listening to me. Thank you. Any other comments? I guess at
this point I'm going to go ahead and close public comment. And open it up for the board. First
before. Okay. Thank you. Before we have discussion, sometimes it's better to go ahead and make a motion and a second and open it up for discussion is probably
the best. If I could provide one clarification before in regards to the animal breeding, I believe the staff recommended condition number one, where it talks about where we state. Let
me go down to it. The agricultural use is limited to the raising of a maximum, the raising of the maximum of one miniature cow on the property, no other farm animals or
agricultural activities as specified under the definition of agricultural is permitted. If you go back to the definition, it does state animal breeding as one of the other activities. So
I do think that that's covered under that condition. I just wanted to point that out. Thank you. Thank you. I think I think my initial concern, we didn't know whether it was a boy or a
girl, and the cow could have been taken somewhere else to be bred and then come back and have babies. And that's what my thoughts were going. But I thank you. I know what you mean. At
this point, I'd like to go ahead and make a motion with no, nobody wants to make one. I'll pass the gavel. But do I hear a motion on the floor? Well, I would make that motion, Mr.
Chairman, to approve resolution 2025 dash 13 for the conditional use approval for the single pet animal. Is there a second? I'll
second it. Okay. Discussion. Let me let me just preface and I and I appreciate the concerns raised by the, the people in the
neighborhood. But that's why we have code enforcement, whether it's, you know, a cow may be something different, but but when you have dogs and chickens
and everything else that might, you know, just because you have a cow, you know, if you have a bunch of dogs that you don't take care of and groom them, the smell can be just as bad. I have
comments of. That sort. Oh well, did you go to comment? Oh, you were okay. I was making comments. Okay. No, no, no, I was making comments, you know,
and so I can appreciate again that the neighbors concerned. But again, that's what code enforcement is designed to do is to address those issues that that again, whether it's a cow,
chickens, dogs, what you know, on something unsightly in your yard, you know, not taking care of your yard. Those are the things that code enforcement is there to enforce. And obviously
as a conditional use and correct me if I'm wrong, counsel, if the condition if the code enforcement becomes such a significant issue, that condition can be or that thing
can be revoked. Am I correct? Well, we through code or we could bring a cause of action, an injunctive action. So there are there are remedies available
to address some of the concerns of the, of the neighborhood. So I had to say what I had to say. But go ahead. Well I would argue that this is just another issue
that we should not put on code enforcement. And that's not, to me, the best way to put conditions. But I want to just preface this again, thank you for your service. And I appreciate, you know, I'm very
empathetic to your wife's, you know, speech, you know, but we can't just be swayed by emotion up here. These are really serious decisions that we have to make this. And calling this
animal a pet does not make it any less a cow. A cows are farm animals. Even in the applicant's speech, said he spoke to many farmers about certain things,
again alluding to farm animals. As far as for therapy, these animals are already accessible to nursing homes and schools. I've seen donkeys. I've seen
many miniature horses. My boyfriend's mother recently passed, and I saw her with a miniature pony in her nursing home. So those are available. We
don't need to be, you know, putting in things that are inconsistent with our land development code for some proposed uses for our elementary
schools. So again, these are not these decisions should not be emotional. And I love cows. And I want to second one of the commenters comments about the
welfare of the cow, even though that's not a part of the application. Cows. These animals do, you know, thrive in in pairs and part of the therapy of why
people go into a farm. I was just actually went to my friend's farm this past weekend and saw two cows and two donkeys, and they were in pairs. And they're they're together a lot. And part of that peace and
that therapy is also being on the farm and being away from everything. It's not the traffic that's right by you. The school bus right there, which is I went
to I went to, you know, middle school, the Tarpon Middle. And I taught there for years. So that is not a, that's not the therapeutic cow farm, you know,
thing that I think that, you know, we're just being trying to be sold here again. This is, this is a farm animal. And I appreciate that. You know, you
did come here for an application, but it sounds like the process is already in place to buy the cow. So I just think, again, this is not like
chickens. And every application comes separate, does not set a precedent. But we are, you know, realistic up here. And again just listening. You know, you
don't want to live on a farm. That's great. But this is not the place to have a farm, unfortunately. And again my friend had a dream to go live there and she made it come true. But she knew she couldn't have
it here. And so unfortunately, I mean, and that's just my view. But cows are farm animals and they belong on a farm with other cows and other farm animals. And I think that that's their, you know, their best use there. So
that's my reasons for being against this application. Thank you. Any other discussion on this board? Yep, I have some. I
am also not for using our code enforcement. We have one code enforcement person and he's well booked. Also, I am concerned
that the area is way too small for that for the animal. I am also concerned with what the neighbor said about, you know, the hurricanes and the heat. And
although I'm not the attorney up here, I would have said it set a precedence. I mean, and that's one of my concerns. I thank you for your service. I understand I
am an animal lover, although I've never been a farm person. I. Yeah, okay. I want to just add a couple more points. So
chickens are a farm animal, right? But we have chickens and Tarpon Springs. We have goats. We have sheep that are in Tarpon Springs that they live for quite
a long time and then they get executed. What do you call it butchered for? For Easter. So I think, yeah, there are exceptions, but I understand both sides of the story. Just
put it in perspective that we do have unusual animals in Tarpon Springs that reside in residential areas. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Zorbalas. In the residential area. You'd be
surprised. You'll be surprised. Legally, I'm asking for I. Have you had any code enforcement violations? Well, let's put it this way. There's chickens in
Tarpon Springs. Okay. Put a chicken under your arm. If there's a tornado. Well. Points, though, with regard to not
making code enforcement do more work, but unfortunately, we that's the role of code enforcement when there is a violation. Regardless if you have a cow, regardless if you
don't, you have your grass grown to too high. That's the purpose of code enforcement. If the idea is to not to do things, that does give code enforcement. The
opportunity to police the city, then we shouldn't be passing anything. Mr. Koskotas, I think that what she was saying. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I think what she was stating is we can't pass
it off on to code enforcement. I'm not saying suggesting, but I said that code enforcement offers a remedy just like anything offers a remedy. Any violation in your city block
that you see is wrong. Code enforcement offers a remedy. That's my point, is that you have remedies. Not that if you
let something go, it's just got to let it go. No people have a remedy. If things aren't proper, whether it's your grass is too high, whether you smell, whether
it's an odor, that's the purpose of code enforcement and to not that's their duty. And to handcuff and to handcuff our ability not to do things because we're worried about code
enforcement. So that's that's I'm just addressing the code enforcement issue. So any other comments or questions with regard to this application? Just
a comment, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate both sides being presented here. There's valid points on both. What you're dealing with really is the
unknown and it's a change people generally are not too thrilled about change because they don't know if it's going to be this way or that way. I usually base my decisions on preponderance of
whether there's a little more benefit and a little less detriment to something, or the explanation and the evidence presented. Looks like it could
go that way. I feel the family is being forthright, forthcoming, and probably very responsible about what's going to go on. And as Mr. Kakuta
said, code enforcement exists to address problems, whether it's an animal type problem or a person type problem or a physical or property problem, that's part of their duties. And
I've been in enforcement for over 40 years, so I'm used to dealing with anything that comes my way. And if not, you find the proper recourse and referral for
it. It doesn't seem that it's likely that this is going to end anybody's world. So I'm going to be inclined to be in favor of
it. And what I thought of saying was, if it was a horse, I might say nay. But being so being it's not, I'm going to move to approve. Okay. All right. Unless
there's other comments I'd like to call for the question. Roll call, please. Miss Weaver.
Regretfully, I'm going to say no. Miss Swenson. No, Miss Early, no. Mr. Rocklin, Miss
Francis. No. Mr. Zambellas. Yes, Mr. Curtis? Yes. Okay. Thank
you. That concludes that next item on the agenda is board and staff comments. Before we move on to that, I'd like to take a
five minute restroom break. Thank you.
If Western coalition. Oh, I don't know if they knew what your answer was. Thank you. No
way. Not today. How many colors you guys got? Oh. Yeah. That's a
little personal. It is hard. It's the only thing. It's a
problem. For the first time. No problem. Yeah. You have to trust
us. So. No, we trust between parties. Yeah. Sorry. Touch base. Because I was thinking
this was my first thing was. I've. I've seen this. Is that
they're not. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's one of those. Two things. It's it doesn't get too
much closer. What's best at all and you won't know. Right.
That's the problem. Yeah. Well, I think.
So. It's good. Okay. I like to call the meeting back to back to order. Okay. Number eight on the
agenda is discussion with regard to the city code regarding noise. Officer Mathis, I guess you're making the presentation. Yeah. And before, I just want to make a point of order, I just I
talked to Pat about this earlier. Just about the public notice of this item. Discussion occurred at city codes and regulating noise. There's no
corresponding memorandum about like exactly how this issue is raised. I do know some of the concerns from the police, but we don't have a memorandum from the city manager, the planning
director or anybody really didn't come for a discussion and direction from the BoCC. And it does also start with some an alcohol beverages ordinance. So
that's just some issues that I want to raise before we started this. Okay. Thank you, thank you. But I think this I know this is just for discussion. I to the extent that any action
needs to be taken or other presentation, I think what you're suggesting is we would need more of a notice with regard to this. Am I correct in
that assumption? It's just there's no corresponding memorandum. Just like to understand why this is being brought to us other than Mr. Crawford's email, which I
understand from the police, the police perspective. But you know this, we don't I've never seen something come to us without a memorandum of the past few items that have come to us came from a
discussion and direction from the Board of Commissioners on the mobile home, the flag banner thing. So all of a sudden, this is just here. There's just a proposed ordinance. I don't want
that to become a problem in the future, because we know that this is an issue that the police have had. We've seen the stuff on social media, but in the future, something like this pops
up and, you know, so I just want to put that out there and put that on the record. Thanks.
Okay, okay. Yes. So and I do apologize that there's no memorandum that would have been a good idea to go ahead and include one. But what we are
trying to do is actually resolve that issue and turn things around to bring discussion items to the planning and zoning board
first, and then before we discuss the item with the Board of Commissioners. So the Board of Commissioners has not discussed this item or given
staff any direction on it. This was generated by kind of a combination of the planning staff, the city manager's office and the police department. Major
Mathis is here this evening to answer questions in general about these issues, and we identified just that. It's
probably advisable at this point to address the noise ordinance with code updates. And we're starting with a discussion of the Land Development Code
section. So the city's codes regulate noise in two, basically two sections. The municipal code section 12 Dash 14 addresses
noise noise control generally, and the land development code addresses noise associated with on premise alcoholic beverage
service. That's the one we're looking at tonight. We decided to start with the land development code. The current
code allows basically a establishes a distance requirement from the alcoholic beverage establishment of. Four.
The for live entertainment. So if the establishment has live entertainment, they have to be a certain distance from the boundary line of a residential
zoning district. There is additional compatibility list of compatibility factors that the planning director and city
manager do. Also consider. I don't know, some of you may have been here when alcoholic beverage licenses went to the Board of Commissioners. That was
several years ago. That was a change to make that an administrative review. As far as the licenses, they're pretty much all conditional use except
for packaged sales of beer and wine. And so those go to the city manager for signature. So these things are all reviewed by the planning department planning
director and the city manager. So again, we would like to receive feedback on a proposed draft update of the alcoholic
beverage section. Section 52. We have included in in the course of that. And we'll talk talk through the changes here in a second. The city has looked at
getting decibel meters, and we do have and Major Mathis can can confirm and you know, talk about that. The police department has purchased at least one or more
decibel meters. And in looking at this, this code, Major Crawford did go out and take some measurements. I've included that email to give us an idea of
what we're we're looking at in general, as far as noise levels currently. So those were some preliminary measurements that
that we discussed in looking at this code. And Major Crawford then followed up with with measurements in different
situations. So that's what that email is. The basic proposal is
to add a section to add a section 52.01 to this code that basically establishes decibel
level noise limits on two different time frames, Sunday through Thursday and Friday and Saturday. And basically the
Sunday through Thursday proposal in this draft is that you would have 55 limit of 55dB at night
and 75 75dB during the day. Night would be defined as 9:00 pm to sunrise for Sunday through Thursday, and then daytime would
be sunrise to 9:00 pm. For Friday and Saturday. You'd have 65dB at night overnight and 85dB during the day. The cutoff there
would be 10:30 p.m, so you could have 65dB between 10:30 p.m. And sunrise 85dB during the day, and
just to touch on the areas of Major Crawford measured. He was looking at just down at the sponge docks and downtown during
the evening hours with ambient noise. He had arranged from 55 to 78dB. And then he did use the
meter at our Touch-a-truck event. And stood about 50ft away from the deejay, which, if any of you have been to that event,
it's a DJ with amplifiers that, you know, pretty much just sounds like a big boombox. Pounds the music throughout the event. The highest reading
occurred at the 50 foot distance from the DJ. That was a decibel level of 98. So that gives you
an idea of the decibel levels for an event and for just busy areas with the all the noises
that come with that. So. I guess, and I do have some examples and just some kind of
anecdotal information on on what other jurisdictions do. If you if you want to talk about that. I did a little bit of research today, but basically at this
point we're just asking for just some general feedback and I should say the municipal code section 12. We haven't looked at
any changes to that yet. As you as you know, from some of the applications you've looked at in the past, that ordinance as it
sits now provides for a determination of whether the noise that's heard from 50ft
from the source is loud, raucous. Is not acceptable to reasonable persons. So and I've
included that ordinance in your packet so you can see that line which. So looking for feedback I
have questions on this one. First of all. I find to be is.
Moya. You know, the measurements of noise in decibels is logarithmic. It's not linear in nature. So every doubling of the
distance changes your noise level by six decibels. So if you look at Friday and Saturday Night Live levels of 85 decibel,
that is ten times more than 75dB, not ten more, but ten times more. So 85. So a ten
decibels increase is can be perceived as twice as loud. Now, if you consider that if measured
at a property line, let's say 85ft from the noise source, if you got within 25ft of that noise source, it would be 103 decibel, which can burst your
eardrum. So when I looked up Pinellas, Newport, Richey. Dunedin, I think they're all
around the area of 72, which is good. I think the other ones look good, but I don't think anywhere. Should we be at 85dB?
And that's really 85dB, usually measured at a property line, which could be 100ft away. So I would just check into that number a little bit more, maybe ask an engineer or talk to
somebody about that one, because I think it's inconsistent with what everybody else does. And it's a scary level. And that's my only comment. Okay. Anybody else have a comment before I
open my mouth? Want to listen to Major Mathis first to see before we ask staff, is that okay? That's fine. Yep. You part of staff presentation because I think he can bring some light
into what kind of what the reasoning for some of this is. Good point. Okay. So Major Mathis, most of you know me, I'm the admin major on this. Major Crawford did the work and went
on vacation. So I'll be here to answer all the questions that I can. So I believe the background of this came from you guys saw a
lot of the social media stuff after we did some enforcement downtown because of the noise level. I I'm a band kid. I don't know about decibels. I can tell you if you're flat or sharp or
in tune or attitude and that's about it. And I know loud and I think this is, this is a little bit separate than our noise ordinance under 1214. This is
not applicable to that. This is applicable to, from what I understand, something new that we're trying to get together to give our downtown businesses a little bit more leeway to have the outdoor entertainment, but
not be outside of the policy or the ordinance that the city currently had. So we did by Major Crawford did go out and go do the decibel readings. And I
think this was a happy in between from his the noted low and the noted high, which was like 78, I believe, at one
reading, I believe. And they ranged from 78 to 98. So I think the city was looking at maybe a medium and that not knowing the research that you've done. And I
think that's something we can go back to staff and say, let's look at this and let's see what's best for all, all people, including our businesses. And I know we referenced New Port
Richey and Port Richey, but I like to think we do a little bit more and a little bit better. Hey, wait, wait. Let him finish. You'll have no, no, no, but I'm saying we do have a lot and I'm not and I and I'm not
disagreeing with you, but I think what we're trying to do is, you know, when our officers are getting yelled at by business owners and stuff, we're thinking of a way to be able to have our business owners attract
crowds. And I guess that's what this board is for, to give us guidance and what we need to do and how we need to put these in place. Well, let let him let let him hold on, let, let him finish
his presentation. And then what we're going to do, like we were doing before, we'll have our opportunity to go down the road and make. Well, I know, but I'm going to do this in a systematic order. But right now you have a
proposal on, on your, on your, on your plate here. We just simply played a role in helping get the decibels read. We do have four of them in the city.
The goal, I believe, on Major Crawford's part is to assign one to each unit. On patrol. We have four different patrol squads that covers the city 24 over seven, so those will be readily available so the officers can go
out and read. So I'm willing to answer any questions from a police officer standpoint or we'll start on this end because we start on the other end before. So go ahead. Thank you.
Major Mathis. First, can you let me know what kind of what kind of decibel reader? Because I was going to get one online. Okay, I will I will get with major. I just want like a decent one because I live really close to
one of these because it's not just downtown at the docks and ultra 19. It's multiple like locations. And, and some people aren't aware of the social media stuff because not everybody is
allowed on the community page. Right, right. So and I would just say just to let know that there's some, you know, people downtown, you know, that have complained about some of the, the bars. And it's not
necessarily that the timing is just the, you know, the loud and they don't have to like stop. But apparently they I don't know if they just can't. And I can't say this from a music standpoin.
On a clear, crisp night, sound travels further next to water and amplifies, and it travels on a most of our summer nights. Coming up. God, God help us all. It's a little bit thicker, the
air is thicker, so sound doesn't travel as far right. So I think that's why we were trying to get the footage thing done and go to more of a decibels. And I'm glad you did. I don't I don't know
that research. So I'm glad you did it. And it gives us a little bit of more forethought of what we can add into this and make this a more complete, comprehensive ordinance for the betterment of all businesses and
residents. But I do know from being a band kid, you get a clear, crisp night, sound travels and it goes well. I'm glad. Like, I understand why you want it because you have to. You have to have some guidance,
right? And so the other thing, before I get back to 52, I did want to because you brought up the band. I had a concern that I heard in the past couple of months, and if we're going to do
this, I think it might not just be for outdoor and indoor entertainment, because people that do live on the west side of town, as we discussed today, I love the band like you do, and
everyone loves the band, but they practice a lot, and the people on that side of town behind Florida Avenue, like South Colony South over there and behind that don't always necessarily want to hear all the
time and wondering if there's a type of not necessarily with this, but like something that we can do to because the band has to practice. But between the school. Yes. Right. And then
because it's not that they're anti band, but it's just that it's a lot really loud. I think that's enumerated in chapter 12.41 and the ordinance, because the planning and zoning
department is now doing stuff like this and discussion, I want to bring it up that that's an issue that I've heard from residents. So I can tell you that the school, along with the
district, along with the neighbors, put in a plan that has been in place for five years to mitigate for that, that I do know that it's gone. They have worked with the school district,
the city residents around, and I do know that there has been a plan in place. And then just again, I know Pat mentioned how does the alcoholic beverage because again, this this was noticed. I understand that the
noise thing was noticed. There's just discussion of current city codes regulating noise. And then the alcoholic beverages is in here. I guess it's because that's going to come after it.
But then the conditional use approval is coming out of that. And I just want to make sure that like any more decision making that we give to staff is always take that we take away from any board that goes through
us or the BOC is, is taking away like the voice of the people. So I don't I don't really know how alcoholic beverages got looped in here. And I don't know if you
can answer that or Pat. So because we have two, two places in our codes that address noise specifically, one of them is the
alcoholic beverage section. I'm not sure what you're asking. That's why we're starting with that. Okay. But there's no notice to the public that we're discussing anything on your
agenda. This is a discussion on. So there's no no. Just as regulating noise. Right. But it's under a board and staff discussion. And if you're counting on the public, this
will come back to you as an ordinance, as legally advertised. I'm just I'm not sure how else to notice it besides the agenda. Alcoholic beverages and noise would have
been a little bit more clear, I think. I mean, since it's the. Oh, you mean the title of the discussion item? Okay, we can change that. Yeah. It's important. Yeah, sure. All right. Thank you. I mean, no, no, I just want to advertise the
agenda. Well, this is really this is this is a good point. I thought we were going. This is coming straight to us. I well, we really have people, like, at least look at the agenda. I know, I'm just I think moving
forward, I think we talked about moving forward. You know, should it have been I don't know if you heard my comment earlier, I should have probably should have been, but. Well, that was a different company. That was in
the memorandum. This is on an entirely different thing than that. But but well they'll have an opportunity and I'm putting it on the record. That's all. That's fine. Yeah that's fine. Thank you. All right, Mr.
Zambellas. Would you speaker your microphone? Okay. The noise readings. I saw that you had a different times of the day. I was curious, did you take noise
reading during morning rush hour and evening rush hour of the traffic? I'm not going to lie to you. I didn't ask for specifics from Major Crawford. Exactly the
time. It would be curious to know what those readings are. I know the email it says from afternoon hours to early morning hours to medium. The readings range from this. This is normal
traffic, car noises and ambient sounds. And then during the truck talk to truck, I don't know if it was like what we consider rush hour from zero 6 to 0 900 or 6 a.m. To 9 a.m.
Excuse me, or from 5 p.m. To 8 p.m. I don't know if those are the hours specified. I don't know exactly when he went out and did it. I just got it from the email that he sent. But if
you want, I can do a follow up pat and get that to you. Yeah, I can do a follow up and get that back to you. My second part to the question, when was the last time we did such a noise level
study? Is this the only one we've done in years? Well, I would I would say so. So it was triggered by city manager and
planning department and police. Well, I think what happened was there was a there was an event that went on downtown and we went out and did some enforcement action on that event because people in the area were
upset with the noise event that happened that triggered the owner of the business to do some things on social media, from what I recall. And then the noise study was this was brought up, I believe, after that, it
kind of in that third part, and the third part would be so I see the what we have on Park Avenue. What's that called? Island on. What's the night on first Friday, first Friday, first
Friday? Have we ever done any decibel? Well, the reason I don't want to take away from like the first Friday things, because that's a permanent event that kind of gets around the
ordinance a little bit. Yes. So those are those are different permanent events that are, that are brought through city staff, approved by staff and then approved approved by the board of commissioners. Yeah. But with
all due respect, that's a function that creates noise, should not be treated any different than those that are doing out there. I agree. Yeah, it's got to be fair for everyone. City functions that
are permitted versus the ones that are not permanent. Okay, that's up for the boards to decide. I just enforce the ordinance in the laws. Thank you and I commend you for that.
Thank you. Thank you, major, and thank you, Pat. And just so you all know, you were all in the upper 60s to low 70s in this discussion here I have a noise meter apps. And they're very,
very compatible with meters in the hundreds of dollars because I've been using them for 30 something years. Everything from cabaret clubs, motorcycle noise
bands, parties, Christmas displays with music and such. There should be a happy medium and I commend you for establishing some sort of
criteria for this, both with the level and the times. A lot of it seems to be incident dependent, where the spirit of the law and the letter of the law sometimes
are a little, a little bit apart. It's something that we need to look at from all angles. And this way, like you said, you have a standard that's applicable if somebody has 1 or 2 points above, should they get
a citation or a summons? Probably not, but a warning. And the main thing is, is to resolve whatever the concerns are, both of the enforcement arm, the
entertainment arm, the business arm of everything, so that there there can be exceptions to the rules, like you mentioned First Friday and other events like that, and people are aware of
it. And we used to say, if the best thing you can do is invite your neighbors to your noisy party, this way they're all part and part of it. But but as this
is a work in progress, I think we'll eventually arrive at a result that that makes everybody a little happy and a little unhappy. So thank you for that.
Thank you. First of all, I love music too. Yeah. And I love to dance. And I also enjoy sitting on my deck and listening to the music on the canal from Sponge
City Brewery. And I love it. I'm not against business. I'm a business owner. I only know as an engineer that 85dB as measured from a property line,
which may be 80ft to 100ft away, seems excessive to me. I'm just saying more. And you do have to watch out for some of these meters, because it's not just noise level, it's the frequency
of the noise and the amplitude of the noise. So low noises are different than high noises for longer periods of time. So anyways, but what I hear is 90dB
is a good, good read for great dancing. Plus 85 100ft away is going to be excessive in the hundreds. So okay, would you mind sharing whatever your data
is with? I'm sure staff would appreciate if you have an expertise in this area to share that with staff. Do my little analysis that I can, but I am
not a numbers person, so all right. Yeah. Okay. So basically I think you answered my question. I agree with my
colleague. This this should be applied across the board, not necessarily, you know, to pick and choose just because someone
pulled a permit for an event. I mean, I live on Tarpon Avenue. I'm a city girl. If I, if I was opposed to noise, I wouldn't have bought a house right there.
So I'm going to defer to my colleagues to, to, to basically, you know, how they feel about the noise level. Thank you.
Well, first I was nailed because of noise. I had. Actually I did not have a special event permit for Easter. We had 100 Knicks
been to my Easter parties, had about 100 people. We had a DJ neighbor called. I was warned it's hard to turn down because
noise carries. So the following year we actually invited the person and everything was Kumbaya. But I just I don't know, and I appreciate you
showing that to me. I don't know what 75dB sounds like. I'm watching your meter and we're in the 60s and 70s, okay. Which at
this level it's fine depending on, you know, how far away I am. Obviously if I'm trying to watch TV and I hear something this loud, you know the band because
I live, you know where I live. I live close to the high school. You know, that may be a little bit excessive. I, I'm a little bit different with Mr. With, with a couple of my board
members here. I think special events are special events and you make application to have a special events, because if you had a special event and you had
a very popular band, if you can't hear them because you're too far away, you don't hear them really well, right? You know, you're you're defeating the purpose. I'd hate to have
Eric Clapton come in and I can't hear him. I don't think I know, but but but there's a reason why you have a special event, and I. And I don't know what I think if
the decibels that you're talking to are for normal Monday through Friday events at a downtown, a brewery or whatever, it's one
thing I don't know if you have a separate. Or there will be a excuse me, a separate level for special events and only special events stop at a certain time.
Can I speak to that real quick? I had the privilege of being taught by the legendary Sherry Jacobs. When it comes to a lot of these things, usually when we
approve a special event that we know is going to create a lot of noise or something for the surrounding community, we make the applicant correct me if I'm wrong, get written letters and
approval signed by the people that are going to be impacted around. So for instance, my friend from school who calls me out, I love her. No, the band,
when they do their event, we make sure that they get letters from everybody around to say that we're having this event. Here's a ticket to the event. We're sorry for disrupting you,
and I don't think that that's something that that we should move away from. We try to get them. Well, I know for the people along Gulf Road, I can't say for further back because we
I know we were looking at another event this past year that we were going to move from one place to another, that we told the applicant, there's a neighborhood that abuts this event, that you want to change it, to make sure that the people
in this neighborhood and the majority of them agree with this event, so that we know that the noise is going to go up. We know that we're going to do the special event that goes above the ordinance that we have. So
we make sure that we get that in writing before it comes to the committee. We approve it, and then we send it to the board to say, hey, you're not you maybe won't get 100% of the neighbors, but we try to get 80 to 90% to
say, we understand this event is happening and this is our clear and cut off date or time for these events. So sorry to cut you off, Mr. Chairman, but I wanted to clarify that I appreciate that because that
answers one of my questions. Now in the evenings, obviously, if it's a violation, you have these decimeters that would be with with in patrol cars that would be able to. So there's four of
them. And I'm going to assume Major Crawford is going to give every shift supervisor or designee to have out, or there will be placed in the dispatch.
And you can run up, grab it and come out and do it that way. So I would assume in case the supervisor is off and we have an acting or interim supervisor, there's one readily available would be upstairs in dispatch.
Go and grab it, log it out and come out and do do what you got to do okay, okay. Any other. By the way, I'm the admin major. I can't tell you what to do on the operations side, but that's what
I would suggest to them. I have a few more a few more comments. So first of all, I just want to point out that we can't mister trust Mr. Rocklin's app. Whatever. Thank you. But I'm not
making a decision based off an app on a phone. So my main concern is that in this, this is why it has nothing to do with anyone here. It's just the
process is the we need a balance of what the what's good for the business owners and the residents. And my concern is, and this is what I thought, that this was basically the catalyst
for this was this incident at ours. And we and we shouldn't be making ordinances, even though I know it's an issue based on that without public notice. Because, listen, I saw the comments on
that. And if everybody was aware that this was an issue tonight, this would not room would not be empty. And that's that is my main concern is we cannot do that. And that's the that is the
whole reason behind the importance of public notice that everybody gets, you know, a chance to talk and the Touch-a-truck was an event as well. So I think that before we
do something like this, it would be easy now that we have the readers to go out to the restaurants, I can get, you know, a list of like the, the ones that have the music at night. That way they can be
tested at those places, not in an event. Right to see like, okay, whiskey distillery, what's another one? I've heard the, the, the one that came for the
food truck. Right. Bright brighter days. Right. Hours more used to be Morgan Mays. All these places that play music and just do some tests there, and
maybe we can play some music so we can actually have like an understanding because I don't know what the decibels are either. Right. So, you know, I just think that those examples I just like this, these numbers to
all of us are just kind of like and I wasn't complaining, but the actually what the residents were was the practice. So that was just another issue. But you know I love it. Yeah. So I just
think that the issue that I have my concern with is, is that all of this stuff is like strange numbers to us and like, and I think it would better suit the police to find out where the
property lines are. These properties are now go do these things and see how it sounds. On the night of a Saturday when? Because I know what it sounds like and like what I was doing
with my own research, which is allowed because this is not a quasi judicial like, like some like outside of a certain amount of feet, like 50dB is just not harmful like to your eardrums, which is like, well, that's good
if it's not going to burst my eardrums, right? But it's still going to be in my home. Like, I don't think that's the standard that we don't want, is it? It's not going to kill you. We just
want some quiet enjoyment. So we have to, you know, I understand that the loudest voices are a lot of times the business owners and they don't want this stuff. And I get it. But we have to make sure the residents have a
say in this, too, because they're the ones that are going to be complaining. And it'll be easier on the police if they don't know, you know, they're out there with a radar gun and says, I can't do anything. This
is that. And then all of a sudden you find out, wow, this is terrible. This is way too loud. I wouldn't like this either. You know? So, I mean, I don't even and I get the events, I understand the events. It's
different, but I just don't think any of us can make a decision based on any of this without maybe just going back to the drawing board and doing some more research. And an expert, I think would be great, because Saint Pete Beach, they I mean,
if you look at their meetings, they have had it was like the red. Right. And this, this bar red, white and whatever they have, it's over across the water. Yeah. And they had a the meeting was full of people. They
had a whole presentation on this and people were talking. I mean it was a big issue. It's a big tourism city. So it definitely is something that we don't want to just rush into like this, because it's going to have
really bad consequences for everybody involved with and including the police. Because again, I don't want you guys going around being decibel police. Like I shooting decibel
guns. Yeah. So I just want to go back to the point. Yeah, I do have a couple of clarifications on things whenever. First, a
question for Patricia. Patricia. Special use is that that permit open to private citizen business. Yeah. That was one of
the items I was going to address. So there are two types of events. One is a city special event. That's a city sponsored
event. First Friday is a special event. The other kind with a different type of special permit. It's a city. The BOC approves that touch a truck.
First Fridays I don't know any of the, you know, seafood festivals. All that stuff is a special event that the board approves that has parameters
that go with it. As Major Mathis mentioned, that the board approves. For example, First Friday ends at 10:00. Good
example. When you're doing a private event, the example I think you guys mentioned, normally people would pull a temporary a temporary use from
the TRC. Good example is this past weekend we had a Saint Patty's Day three day event that the TRC reviewed and approved.
We set our limits, and Major Mathis can attest because he reviewed it. We did set hours on the music earlier than what they wanted, and we can do that as a
condition on temporary events. Not not everybody who has an event comes in and asks the DRC and that's when they I hear you. All right. So you have city
event. Do you foresee that the city event will have decibel levels set, and then you have special permit? Do you foresee setting decimal limits on both
because both create sound. And to me to say that the city event, because it's a city event, you don't have a decimal limit. That's not being realistic. I, I think that's
something that's got to be clarified through one of your boards. I don't think we're I don't think we're we should answer that question. But no, no, for sure. I think that's something that this looks like
it was it's a brand new like we're coming up with and I think yeah. No, no. And so what I mean by that, I think that's something that we should staff between your boards and the
board of commissioners and give a remedy for us to enforce. Like she said this last weekend there was an event. We have the special events Committee. We go through all that together. And I went back to Patty and said,
absolutely not. This is a Sunday night. We're going to reduce it. If they want to have their event, they're going to reduce the timeline on the Sunday night because we have people and then we bounce that off each other.
She may say, I want this or that. The fire department, there's a bunch of boards involved in that that help us make a decision that's that's best for that application to get approved, to go through one last
comment is critical as it is to have these levels set. It's even more critical to have the right test process, because you can't go into one place and be 20ft
away from something and the other place, and be 50ft and be ten feet, because that distance will skew you. Every doubling is
six decibels of space. So from 10 to 20 you're going to go six decibels up or down. So and in large areas it's almost going to have to be some kind of
averaging and it's not that easy. So what I would suggest maybe to the board to the chair I would. We're police officers.
We deal with law. I think what I would say is your engineering group here and ask them. And I think that's something the board, if the chair and the board wants to make a motion to
send up to the commissioners to hire somebody else to do that, let's keep let's just keep everything in order and I apologize. But yeah, I want to. Anybody else over here have any questions? No, no I wasn't I
hope I didn't come off rude. I just wanted to say I'm trying to I'm trying to do a. Yeah, a an order here. Rather than we start going back and forth. Yeah. You can call for a motion, Mike
because I'd like to make I don't I don't think there's a motion. I think we can't. But we could just take a recommendation. Yeah, well, I'd like to make a recommendation that that we recommend the board do a study
or something. Let's wait till we're done. Oh, I thought we were done. I'm sorry, Rob, because we skipped and I don't know if anybody else on this side has any more comments.
Okay. All right. So I have one question. So if somebody was having a party, just a regular party, whether it's Easter or
whatever. And here's what here's my thought. If the officer, the officer was called based on a noise complaint and they come out with their decimeter, okay.
And they measure and it's within that range, then that complaint is deemed not a, you know, an invalid complaint or, or the reason I ask the question is I
could see somebody having a party. I'm not going to I'll use I don't want to use mine as an example. But let's say I'm having a birthday party and I have a DJ and the neighbor can
hear the DJ, and so they call the police. The police come out and it's not extremely loud, but they've got a DJ. And the question then becomes, and this
is where your scientific information is valuable. At what point do. Because otherwise you could say, no one can have a party because you could always hear the neighbor next door. Well, I think that's enumerated
under 1214 under the noise ordinance. That's a separate ordinance. And under 1214 it's 50ft, but with a decimeter with a decimeter. Because give you my
example. The officer came out, he could hear the noise. Okay, well, you're going to have to turn it down. But if you if the officer had a decimeter and
under the code, if it says you are under that threshold, I could or anybody could have continued on with their event or party, not necessarily needing a special application. I think
we're getting a two ordinances mixed up. Okay. There. You have ordinance under 50 dash point, excuse me, 50.02, which specifically talks about the
bars and restaurants and stuff like that. And then you have the enumerated noise ordinance, loud and raucous house parties under 1214, I believe. I understand that, but if you're going to
visit noise ordinance, would we not be doing a disservice unless we address it? You know, across the board for permitted events?
I would leave that up to you guys to see how you want to do it. Could I ask the attorney a question? So, Mr. Salzman, would you say that there are experts that are available to do studies, audiologists around an
issue, an ordinance like this, just just so you know, this is one of the more difficult ordinances there is. And it's been done every way possible
with the decimal, with the reasonable person standard. I mean, it is. And no one has been able to really get a good grasp on these ordinances. All we can
try to do is put things in place that are more really, honestly, reasons to go to someone's house and say, please, you may not know that you're, you know,
you're making too much noise. Please can you turn it down? Same try to times at night for bars, restaurants. That's really what these are. These are not ones where we're going out to
try to prosecute people, you know, shut down their businesses. Could you use those in certain situations as noise and other problems? Sure. But
those are really ones that are just basically they don't care. Right. But this is trying to get some general guidelines in place so that when we go out and the
police officers go out, they can say, look, you may not be aware, but here's the here's what we have in place. That's really what these are. But to get a definitive guaranteed, you're going to win by bringing these
to court. Yeah. They don't exist. Mr. Chair, can I just say, and I think I could say this on behalf of the chief, our goal in all of this as your
police department is to get compliance and understanding between the business owners, the residents and the entire community. I don't think there's a one size fits all for every
situation and your neighborhood, they may complain and some other neighborhoods they may not. Our job is to handle the issues as they arise, but have some backing that we may need in case
we need to take enforcement action. Yeah, but. So. But wouldn't you say if there was a standard I know that this a standard is sort of nebulous, but let's say there is a
standard. Isn't it better to have a standard, whether it's a decibel, whether you consider it loud or not loud, that somebody with a decimeter could come out
and say, okay, you are below that level. You know, you've got a neighbor who will call the police if they're if your dog barks, or your neighbor that calls the police. If the leaves
on your tree fall on their yard, it happens. Right? Okay. And so to have some something definitive that allows actually the tool for the police
department to come out instead of, you know, just say, well, I think you may have to turn it down. They can definitively say, look, it's below the standard
that we have set, it's criteria, whether it's the business owner or whether it's somebody in a residential community. I think you just can't have if you're going to look at setting
benchmarks, I think it should be benchmarks across the board, whether it's a business benchmark or a residential benchmark. So that's just, you know, and one one question, have
you seen a rise in noise complaints or what? How much do we average a year, would you say is that in the city manager. Is it the annual the monthly report? I don't know if those
are in the monthly reports, but I can I can get you. It would be helpful. It's hard to enumerate a noise complaint. It really is. It's when someone calls in and says there's a noise and they're complaining about noise, that
that could be a dog barking. And we'll note it as a noise complaint in our system. So it's hard to differentiate. So like if you called and said my neighbor's dog is barking, it's
keeping me. The dispatcher may log it as a noise complaint or an animal complaint. So I have to sit through and sift it. If you want that info, I can probably get somebody on it, but I just think if we're going to
react to something that's like you're saying, I'd like to just understand how many complaints do we get? We get several on on. I don't want to call any businesses out, but do we get
certain businesses that that that do play a lot of loud music and like a 100 and less a year, is it 100 or more? Probably get
one or 2 or 3 a month, you know, because once you usually make contact, they fix it and then they go away for a couple of months and then they, they come back. But again, it's hard to
enumerate that that noise complaint based on how we coded in the system, the recommendation. Okay. I just I do have one comment for recommendation. And that's I think that my fellow attorneys on the board will appreciate
that. For business owners, it goes a long way to reach out to your neighbors that you know that you're going to play loud music and offer them a free dinner or something, right? I mean, seriously, yeah, really
like it really would if somebody acknowledges that they're going to be a problem in your area, just be nice and kind to them and they will not call sometimes. Did I hear a recommendation that you make? And that is my first
recommendation. And my second is that I just think that maybe we do a recommend a study, but even if it's in-house by the police or something like that, to get some further in-house data.
Data. Right. So can we just clarify with you guys what you want us to come back with? I think yeah, I think with your information, I mean, you have
some very good comments, but having more data with regard to because I don't I don't like you said I don't know what 60 decibel sounds like or 90
decibel sound like. I know when it's loud. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But but but go
ahead. Engineering team, city manager, team engineer. Yeah. We have to look at I mean, how. I
think if you. Okay. All right. Okay. You if you have a talent, you have a board member that has a talent that that might be able to offer some guidance with
regard to parameters and whether you have that, whether you have that, that expertise in house or not, you know, there's a board member that has some, some
talent in that regard, but I think more defined more as to as to benchmarks would probably be better. And that's throwing a lot at you, Officer Mathis. But I'm sorry, General Mathis. I'm
sorry. We I've got all the questions. We'll try to answer those questions. I heard 3 or 4 ideas of what the measure. Rush
hour traffic versus Friday, unpermitted events. I don't know if there were any more specifics. Different distances. I think I heard the we will
reach out to board member Swenson regarding her expertise. But we will bring that back. I did I did research that, but I
will bring it back. I looked at five and to tell you the truth, only two that I looked at had decibel meter levels. The other the others have the ordinance.
We basically have now the loud and raucous. So it's I'll cast that net further. You look at Saint Pete Beach. I think I heard you know what the charging
order is then I appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, okay. And before we adjourn. I know I did tell you. Yes. And if you allow
me, you guys don't invite me very often. They they make me come on Tuesday nights. More often than not. But I would like to say this is the first time I've been to one of these
meetings. And it's a privilege to know what you do and how you have to make these decisions. I wouldn't want to be in your space at all, but I did want to tell the chair and my good
friend here that he said, Matthias earlier. I made a mistake, and I like to joke that he's known me since I was a young man, and I'm not Greek, but I think by the time we
leave, he'll make me Greek. But again, I thank you all, and I thank you for your kindness to me getting this solved. Are those are those what are those on your shoulders? Are those those are oak leaves. Yeah. They
should be stars. Thank you. Okay. That's why I call you gentlemen. Thank you, thank you. All right. And congratulations on your your studies or your FBI
leave next week for two months, and it'll be a lot of fun, but actually is a very dear friend. And I apologize if I butchered your name. So in any event.
Okay, any board comments. And I do have one before I adjourn and, and let me just say this and you know, if I become short with anybody on the board, I
apologize. You know, when I was not the chair, I was the first to jump in and start talking whenever there was a presentation. And, you know, I sit here on my hands letting
everybody speak first. And it's become very difficult for me. And but I, my, my intent is to try to have a semblance of a
process. And if I cut you short, I apologize. But, you know, one of the things that I want to try to narrow down is our ability to
stay focused on the application and. And hopefully the thought of that was getting us out a little even earlier. But I see that I'm failing in that regard.
I think you're doing a great job. So thank you. All right. So any other comments before I
adjourn. Thank you.