##VIDEO ID:RFNoOob6Wo8## That clock is wrong. So I'm going to go ahead and open the meeting. At 630 here in beautiful Tarpon Springs, Florida. The January 27th. And I'll call the meeting to order. Roll call please. Mr. Chris Curtis. Here. Mr. Mackey. Here. Mr. Zambellas. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Okay. Before I say the Pledge of Allegiance, please. Anybody in the audience and anybody here at the dais think about cell phones. But you. So at this point, I'd like to. Pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Mr. Vessey. You've led us. In a moment of reflection, I'm going to ask you if you would do that as well. I have a bit of excitement as we enter into 2025. Feels like spring outside. We've had the epiphany, and it just seems like there's so much good ahead of us for the year, and I think that we can all enjoy being together as we do our work for the year and hope for the best and make good decisions. Amen. Amen. Well, I guess we're going to move on to the minutes for the November 18th and the December 16th agenda. Approval of the minutes. So I the way I probably like to do it because it's on a consent agenda. Unless somebody wants to pull or has a question on any of the minutes that are that have for either November 18th or December 16th, we could pull that. Otherwise, I would like to see one motion to accept both. And I'm back asking council. That would be perfectly okay. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. Thank you. I'll make a motion to accept both. Is there a second? Second? Any discussion as to either of them? Okay. That being said, call for the call for the motion, please. Miss Swenson. Yes, Miss Earley? Yes. Yes. Miss Francis? Yes. Mr. Zambellas? Yes. Mr. Vessey? Yes. Mr. Chris Curtis. Yes. Okay. Moving on. There's only one item on on tonight's agenda. That's ordinance 2025. Dash zero one, Land Development Code amendment. And I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Pat. Okay. Thank you. Good evening. Pat Mcnees, planning supervisor. What you have before you this evening is let me find the page up. Page up. Sorry. There. This is the existing ordinance that regulates food trucks. That is before you this evening. This ordinance came about in 2020. In response to basically a state preemption on local government removing their ability to prohibit food trucks. We prohibit it. We did prohibit food trucks in tarpon before that. The Board of Commissioners responded immediately to that when it went into effect. And we are allowed to regulate food trucks in the city. So there the ordinance was adopted in September of 2020 to do that, provide standards and a process. It's been amended a couple times since then. In 2022, and there has been some recent discussion about potential updates to increase the flexibility for food trucks, especially in the special area plan, which is basically the downtown and sponge docks. So the board discussed that on the 7th of January and directed staff to provide a draft ordinance, which is before you this evening. So some of the highlights, the major revisions are that the current food truck allowable zonings, those are basically industrial Zonings highway business and commercial plan development would be expanded to any non residential zoning or use. So right now food trucks are allowed to operate on basically during the day in highway business which is out mostly out on 19 industrial, mostly north of the river and then commercial plan development. There's a couple of those, those hardwares an example of one of those. This revision would allow up to two trucks between 7 a.m. And 10 p.m. It does not apply to vacant land. That's a current standard. This ordinance revision would expand that to include improved land that does not have permanent restroom facilities. So that was to address the potential for food trucks in basically in commercial parking lots. That was to prevent that type of activity. We still have temporary use approval for multi-day events. We have that now. So when an establishment wants to have a multi-day event, they come before the TRC and get a temporary use approved with with conditions or standards, if those are applied. So that process would still happen the way it does now, except that this revision would remove the number of events that a single establishment could ask for, and it would remove the minimum time separation between events. It would continue to limit the individual events to three days. So that's basically the summary. I'll be glad to answer any questions at this time. I do have a few questions. Did, didn't we not carve out the restriction for the waterfront or the sponge dock area where that was a other than that's what was grandfathered in, but any ability to have food trucks on on some of the properties on there, I didn't see that in here. Is that on in a different part of this particular ordinance? Yeah, it's a different part. So we so there are two parts to the to the full ordinance. The first part is for temporary food trucks. That's 5605. That's where we're making the revisions. Okay. If on your your draft code, if you flip the page two, you'll see section 5606. That's where the food truck, permanent food truck with an existing eating or drinking establishment process was established. That was done. We had two in existence when that was adopted. We've had since this was adopted in 2020, we've had two more go entirely through the process. That is, if memory serves, that's it. We've had two more. So one downtown and one down at the docks. So that was the process put in place to allow for an accessory food truck. Permanent establishment. Where was the restriction with regard to I didn't I'm trying to find out. Maybe if you could point it out to me with regard to the sponge dock or waterfront district, could you, could you put it up here? It fits in there. Just if you want to point me to the number, I can read it, but I just didn't see it. Yeah, I don't know if I don't think you're going to be able to read it. Let's give it a shot. Yeah. This is exhibit A, so. Let's see if I can. So 5606 is mobile food dispensing vehicles as accessory to food and drink establishments. These were the standards that you had to abide by in order to have a food truck anywhere at the docks. Right now, they're not allowed as a temporary or daily use. They're only allowed as special event. No. Okay. So and let me let me clarify too. None of this has to do with anything to do with city approved special events. And I know you guys know this. Just a reminder. So when the Board of Commissioners approves an event like First Friday, that's a city sponsored event. The food trucks come there. At the event they go. But what the temporary section is being, it would be revised to do, would be to allow a daily use of a food truck. They still drive on the state site and then they drive away. At the end of the day, they don't stay there. That that's what this expansion would allow. Right now. That's not allowed at all down at the docks. But if we change this, the question is would that be allowed? Yes. Okay. So, you know, one of the things that we had objected to is protecting the bricks and mortar restaurants down at the sponge docks, and by having, you know, and I represent several people down in sponge dock area, and some of them are just vacant landowners. And the question then becomes, and I posed to you what would stop them from being able to utilize, you know, they may have a structure on the property, but to allow somebody to drive up to their food truck, you know, generate revenue and drive away that same day when we're trying to protect the bricks and mortar establishments down at the sponge docks. That's what this would allow. So, so keep in mind too, that, that the food truck has to be on private property. Can't be in the street. It can't be on city right of way or sidewalk. So. I'm going to venture to say there are not a lot of properties that could do this, because most of the buildings down there are, a lot of them are lot lined, lot line, the room they have is behind this. The ordinance is being written to not allow the commercial parking lots to do it. So yeah, this would allow those that have the room to do it and are not obstructing anything. This this would allow that this would allow someone to move a food truck on the site, run it for the day or the morning or the afternoon or whatever, and drive back off, you know, I'll be back. Questions? Go ahead. Yeah. How do we make sure that we kee. I'm sorry. How do we make sure that there's the appropriate access and area to pull off the road and parking? And are we saying that if somebody has a private lot, they want to let off their own truck or somebody else's truck park on it? Is there any oversight at all in terms of how that's working out the permit or what they have to show before they can do it? Yes. So if you look at 5605. Item f two, the owner has to obtain a business tax receipt to allow operation of food trucks on the site. And when they apply for that, a separate business tax receipt, which is the city's version of an occupational license. When they apply for that, they're going to have to show where a food truck or two food trucks would park. And if I could follow up with another question. Okay, sorry. In other communities before I have seen where they have an area designated for food trucks and these food trucks, there would be maybe anywhere from 7 to 10 food trucks. And it was adjacent to a park and it was in a big empty lot. And they would always be there on a certain day. I mean, all these trucks. So you could show up there, walk around, decide what you wanted to eat or drink. It was actually kind of nice and it was very controlled. Yes. That the board did discuss that possibility as well. On January 7th. We're kind of generically calling that a food truck court, and it is, as you said, kind of the ideas modeled after those types of kind of events that you've seen. And you may see an ordinance come before you on that in the future, but this one's just for the temporary. Okay. Thank you. Okay, I have a question here. And it's in regards to 56 05G in regards to how long can some one be parked at a particular location. And it says that it's if it's an approved site plan. And in a location where on site storage of a vehicle is a permitted use. And the reason I'm asking that is there is a food truck of Greek food located at the gas station at Pinellas and Tarpon, and they have been there for weeks. Why are they allowed to just park it there? I think they were there for the epiphany and they are still seated there. Are they allowed right now? They're not allowed. That's the answer, but they're there. So what is the city doing about it? Are they operating? Are they actually they're not operating it right now. No, it's not being operated. It was may have been operated. Yeah. That property is in a special area plan. And this section of the code basically directs the person to store it either if they're from out of town, wherever they the business operates out of, or if they're in town into, in an area that allows is permitted for storage outdoor because that is a that area is not. So it's not allowed. Okay, I have no idea if code enforcement has received any complaints about it, but. Well, I know that Gene Hungerford of the chamber was complaining about it at the last chamber meeting. Yeah, I would advise her to call code enforcement that that's what would activate some action. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, this preexists me being on the board. Has there ever been any discussion with the board with regards to local vendors versus non-local meaning preferred local vendors keep their money here long. Non come and go. Has there ever been any kind of discussions about. That? I don't know, I know they do talk about local contractors and such things. Yeah. Just if there's city managers here this evening he may he may know. But no I don't know if they talked with respect to food trucks. Yeah. Trucks that are local. Yeah. And define local versus non-local I mean I know the ones that we have that are city events. We do see a lot of non-locals coming. We do. But yes, there's private I wonder if we could if there's a discussion that could be had about I would ask legal whether or not that would be deemed discriminatory. So I think that would be, I don't know, a legal question than anything. Yeah. So that's the question is could we kind of specify local food trucks or that would be it would be probably tough to enforce. I'm not sure how we'd do that or preference for local, but would that be discriminatory? Is the question. I think some additional research may be required to answer that question in its entirety, because it could very well be deemed discriminatory. I unless anybody else on the board has questions. I have a have a couple more questions, if that's okay. Pat. Yeah. Does anybody else have questions before I if you want to go ahead and finish this okay. First of all I remember when we did this and so the question then becomes what's driving this change. Yeah okay. I thought we vetted when we did the food truck ordinances several years ago. You know, we vetted that pretty well. And so I just want to know a what's driving this this change. Number one, I look at the amendment and instead of having one food truck, the amendment authorizing two, I understand the they must they must operate if it's vacant land or approved land, they have to have a permanent on site bathroom facility to patrons. I would look at hand to also to provide handicap access that that probably needs to probably be spelled out. But I guess the more important question for me is what's driving this change? I think that that's something the board has talked about. The method put into place to kind of address this possibility at the docks. I mean, we've really only seen two projects come forward, so there doesn't seem to be a big demand for that. And I city manager is here today with that. Hi. Charles Rudd city manager I guess you could say I'm driving the process. When I came to town, the food trucks first came to my attention with the hurricane. You know, we kind of waived the requirements for Airbnb and for food trucks and so forth. And that's when I discovered that you couldn't the breweries couldn't have rotating food trucks. And actually, my wife and I had a food truck for a while years ago. And we would visit some breweries. And one of the nice things is going to a brewery is the rotation of trucks. You kind of look and look up on social media, what's the truck coming? And it provides it's an important component of brewery business, I feel to draw and I've seen the difference here. I'll my wife and I were driving. We had we had a our stepdaughter in town and we went over to we drove by sponge City and they were they were packed, you know, they had food. We thought, oh that's that's full. Let's drive over to better days. Better days. Not able to have food trucks come through. And there was almost nobody there. I could really see the difference having food makes, and I think it would make a tremendous difference in our in supporting our breweries. It's a fun thing for the customer experience to different trucks. The reason for two trucks is usually they bring in a sweet truck with a savory truck. It's nice to have a dessert truck. They're a cupcake truck or ice cream truck. So we talked about more. I like having variety, but two we thought was good. And then the idea of the restaurant, there was some concern expressed about what if the vacant lots start rolling in trucks all the time. They switch from parking lots to food truck lots. And that's where we thought the idea of, well, if we have, they got to have restrooms, permanent restrooms already available, and they would be Ada compliant just through their own approval process. So that was a way to try to mitigate that. So I have to do a question for you. Then how do we reconcile. Because one of the reasons, besides having the bricks and mortar and you use the brewery as an example, and I appreciate that somebody who's opening up a brewery, either when they're opening it up, they they can they ask themselves, am I going to provide food? And they have the ability to expand their, their, their, their bricks and mortar location. You know, you know, one of the things we discussed is, you know, real estate tax where, where, where we're trying to keep our revenue within Tarpon Springs and having and acknowledging that the state does require us to be accepting food trucks. And when we vetted this process years ago, you know, our driving force was to attack those bricks and mortar locations who pay real estate taxes, you know, employ people. And you can you imagine a brewery having a food truck when they're a location is next to a restaurant? And that's that was part of the concern that we had when we tried to allow the food trucks, but limit them in scope for that reason was to protect our our taxpayers and our bricks and mortar properties who pay real estate taxes. So that was that was our driving force. Well, I think this could support the breweries who pay real estate taxes, you know, valorem taxes as well. It's a way to support that business sector, which is very important in redevelopment. The breweries have a whole audience. They bring to town. People seek out breweries, they go to try them out. There's brewery tours, there's brewery trails. Some gentlemen are here from the brewery. They can speak to that. But it's a it's a great economic development tool and a way we can support them and provide a better customer experience. I think for people coming to visit, if you go to our neighboring communities, the food trucks park on the street in front of the place and you can go outside and get your food, go back inside. But I think customers, in terms of protecting the restaurants from competition, I know my wife, for example, we go to the first Friday, she won't eat outside at a food truck or a vendor. She wants to sit down in a restaurant and that's her preference. So we sit in the restaurants at any special event where there's a restaurant available, rather than sit outside at a from a vendor. So I think it's just an opportunity to, to, to support business, to expand the breweries are paying taxes here in the community and supporting the community. It's a way to increase improve their business model. And I think there's an expectation, I know from the public, when you check out, when I check out a brewery, my wife and I, we look for the food truck. What's the what food truck are they going to have? And if it changes, it gives us a reason to go back and try the different foods. So this is, I think, a simple change that I highly recommend would, would, would do a lot I think for our business community and, and, and our visitors would help our visitor experience. I do have one comment on that. And that way back when, when I lived in conservative, frigid Minnesota, they actually did not allow a lot of our places to sell any kind of alcohol without also selling food. And it's an idea of you shouldn't just be drink, drink, drink without, you know, eating a bit. And I think this is also a little bit of a, a good thing. Also go ahead. Thank you. So I have a little preface before I ask my question. Just I think I'm glad that. Chair has mentioned and brought up the fact that, you know, what is driving this, because I think I understand what's driving it. I watched the meeting in January 7th, and I understand a lot of the motivation is for the breweries, but the problem I think that we're having here is that these we're talking about multiple districts and this the special area plan and outside the special area plan. So the special area plan includes the sponge docks and downtown. And those are distinct in and of themselves. Right. And then we also have the breweries which are not in either. Some of these are not in either district, not in the special area plan at all. So to apply one, which I understand exactly what you're saying. I've been to these breweries and they don't have food. And you want to eat when you drink craft beer because there's nothing else there. Okay, so I get it, but but that's not what we do. Downtown doesn't just have craft beer. They have restaurants and they don't have just bars. There's nothing like that downtown. And then at the docks also, we don't have anything that's just a bar. And I can tell you as somebody who, you know, has had property down there through generations is that we discourage any retail people, you know, tenants from from selling anything that would compete with our restaurant business because that's for them. So we already that's again, it's you're serving you have different interests in different districts. So to apply this as a blanket is I understand the motivation I get it and I, I I've met this gentleman before and I get it. There's no food there. They're not even in either of these districts. So there's different concerns for each district. And so one of my questions, and I appreciate the staff, because I talked to Renee and Pat about my concern about vacant, not vacant lots, which is a huge concern, but parking lots. And I see that that was being addressed here by saying improve that. This does not apply to improved land that does not have permanent restroom facilities. But then I want to know what the definition for what is improved land mean. I don't know what that has defined. And then because of without knowing what that definition is, then you could just throw some permanent restrooms on there, which isn't going to cost much for somebody who's, you know, has a huge parking lot. And then all of a sudden, okay, we're not improving, you know, now we have these restrooms. So that needs to be defined a lot more. And but I appreciate that the intent was to not allow commercial and that, you know, is understood. So and I do understand, you know, Mr. Zambello's concern about preferred vendors and it's not I understand the constitutional restrictions about that. But what we're trying to say is there's a lot of people that are coming here outside vendors that are making money here, and they come and they leave. And then it's like what some of our people would like. We have local vendors that would like at least an opportunity. I'm not sure how that can be, whether they get incentives in some way or another, how that could be addressed. And then the other issue is code enforcement. What I don't want to see is I know how this is going to be enforced is through code enforcement. Right. We have one code enforcement officer, and it's just going to be a burden. And I don't want to put that burden on fellow residents and fellow business owners that are going to be having to police this at 10:00 every night to make sure that they're gone. And I people know me. I take it upon myself to go down and police things. And I can tell you that right now there's somebody who is continuing to just not follow the rules in certain areas. It doesn't matter how many times they're called, and we're just going to put a burden on that. And I just don't think without without a I just don't think saying code enforcement is going to do it because everybody knows when you call code enforcement that if I can't see it, then it's not. It didn't happen unless I'm watching it happen and we're just not staffed that way. So I just don't want to burden our fellow, you know, business owners and residents that this might put a burden on just because it might benefit a few. We need to really make this something that is particular. I get it, it's very particular to breweries. Then let's make it that way. If this is what that's for, let's say this is for breweries that only serve alcohol because we don't have those in other districts. So the need and the demand and this is different in every district. So we can't be putting a blanket rule over that just to help a few because of the ultimately it might really burn a lot of people. So if Pat, you can answer any of those questions for me for the improved land and, you know, how to separate how we separate the districts and things like that, because before we go any further, what I'm hearing so far is that this is a really big, broad spectrum. And then there's other issues. As Miss Swenson brought up about this random. And I've heard, I've heard I've heard multiple complaints, like, how is this food truck operating behind this gas station? I have no idea. And I have one more follow up, if I may. So and I'll just use maybe there's an existing brewery on on alternate 19. And when they got their permit, there may have been certain parking restrictions. You can only have, you know, you need so many parking spaces per per building. But if you put a food truck you're reducing the parking. So then they're not in compliance with the parking requirements. If in fact the food truck is there so that, you know, so and so, that's an issue that I also probably would need to be addressed in the ordinance, that to the extent that there are a number of parking spaces that are required under their permit to operate, that the, the, the I guess the placement of a food truck cannot reduce what the required parking requirements would be, because that that's taking away what what exactly what their minimum parking requirements that the city requires them to have. Obviously, down in the downtown area, there may not be those requirements because of the access to city parking, proper city parking. But some places there is a city parking lot nearby, and I don't know if they get any credits because of the parking lot. May be walking distance, I don't know, but but if they have onsite parking that the city required them to have to get permitted the reduction of those parking spaces would in fact violate their their, I guess their conditional use or whatever permit they would have gotten to open up. So I know that's that's a that's a concern. And I think Mr. Vessey may have a question as well. I do, unless you have a follow up. I actually I do. So if as long as it's a follow up question, I wouldn't go ahead. But what if it's not? Well, no it is. It is actually I'm sitting here listening and trying, you know, with myself doing devil's advocate and I'm listening to the concerns about parking. But in effect, that food truck is parking there. And it's not a permanent parking. It's a temporary parking. Is that correct? Correct. Temporary. So my view on it, arguably, if you know, arguing both sides is that if a business that has parking as required by the city decides to give a couple of those spaces to a temporary food truck, I think it's their prerogative. They may be cutting out parking for potential beer drinking patrons, I don't know, but it's arguable that they're not violating because it's temporary. Well, I could argue that all day long, not back and forth. The intent is to bring more people. I mean, I think that's clear. So that doesn't that argue? Yeah, it's you're expanding the business. You're expanding the business model of the they're trying to they're trying to bring more people. You're expanding the business model and not having parking for use of its patrons. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Well and that would that would be an argument I would make. But and I can go further, but I don't think I need to. So something that would be helpful, particularly in reference to the docs, is if there rather than hypothetical if there were a I've been sitting here trying to think of where a food truck could actually go there. It's not an improved lot or improved lot with no bathrooms. It's not in the right of way, and I can't think of a place when if you could give us the definition of what an improved lot is, that would say a site plan, you know, when they pave a parking lot and then it comes in with a site plan. And so I don't know. That's why I'm asking. A commercial parking lot is a principal use on the property. So that's an improved property. It's not vacant with no use. Right. So but so but they install bathrooms but they install bathrooms and it's good to go. Yeah. So okay so they would have to install bathrooms as an accessory to a principal use of parking, of parking, which I believe is conditional. I, I mean it's an eventuality. I suppose we could prohibit I don't know if we want to do that. It's, you know, it's difficult to write a code to every eventuality. But I suppose if somebody wants to invest that to get food trucks, we'd have to address that one thing to consider. Yeah. You know, in my experience of operating a food truck, you know, you'd pay like $25 to, to park somewhere. So the revenue even daily, I don't think would substantiate building restrooms, you know, on a, on a parking lot versus the parking revenue I think you would get. But again, that's all hypothetical situations. But I can't think of where a food truck could go. I can't currently, but I'll let Mr. Vessey go because I think he's going to cover probably a lot of what I haven't. So. I, I have a couple questions, might have several and then a couple comments, but it probably would be handy to have that ordinance available for a couple of my questions. First sentence as defined where the new underlying is. Nonresidential, zoned, or utilized areas of the city. Where are you looking? Mr. Bessey? 55 page first sentence. Non residentially zoned. Oh, okay. Okay, I'll read the whole thing as defined in FS 509.102 comma. Mobile food dispensing vehicles may operate in non residentially zoned. Or utilized areas of the city. So what? I'm I want that seems just a little bit vague to me as to what that might mean. Utilized areas of the city that's very vague non residentially zoned okay. So would that mean that it could operate right adjacent to a residentially zoned, let's say for example here on on Stafford we've got residential on one side and non residential on the other. And there's about 30ft apart. And it would be okay for the food truck to be right next to that residentially zoned. It could add a business property some sort of business property on a you know during the day between 7 a.m. And 10 p.m. That's all. So the person the residence is already next to a business that theoretically is open during the day at least. So this would add a food truck to it. Okay. And then down under under I know this is just kind of technical stuff, but it's written here and there's a lot there under I mobile food dispensing vehicle must display in the vehicle results of any deeper inspections for cleanliness and sanitation. I could be wrong, but I think it's the county health department that does inspections of food vehicles. I think we can take a look at that agency. A little bit of a scrivener's there, but it is an ordinance. We probably want to get that. And then and then in in J. The standards of this section shall not be applied to the establishment of mobile food dispensing vehicles as accessory to. Accessory to food and drink establishments as regulated under 5605. Okay, I don't think I have 56. I haven't gotten that far, but the term food and drink. So we have some places that and I was here when we over labored the first set of rules. We really spent a lot of time on that, but that typically was focused on restaurants or food and drink that were bar restaurants. But would this open up? This is hypothetical, but here's the question. We have some drink only facilities. Would just 5605. Would that open up the ability for, let's say there's a distillery that doesn't have a kitchen? Would that allow them to set up a semi-permanent food truck at the distillery? Because they're a drink establishment, they're not food and drink, but they're drink they would like, yes, under 5606 under. So like I said, we've already had two go through the process. Okay. Yeah. And we had two existing. One got flooded. I'm not sure what their status is but so we probably have three right now since the ordinance was passed in 2020. So said distillery just uses as an example just a thought experiment. They could bring a food truck in seven days a week, 9 a.m. To 10 p.m, run a food truck every single day at the distillery. Yes, 7 a.m. To 10 p.m. They probably can, but they were in at the commissioner meeting and that is not their intent. I think you need to hear from some of these. Yeah, so. So forgive me. I'm just asking questions. And just to clarify, they've got to drive off every night. They've got to dispose of their waste water as licensed back at their state and county licensed disposal spot. So that has to happen. Okay. And this is just me because it's complicated. There's a lot here. Yeah. I'm not sure how many food trucks would drive seven days a week up and back. Maybe that hurts. I have to think in pictures. So I'm just got a picture. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Under temporary use, permits required A and B, so on the B side, residential property zoned to utilize may host one mobile food dispensing vehicle twice per calendar year. Each event is limited to one day residential property. So this is more or less saying somebody's got a house, wants to have a graduation party. They can twice a year have a food truck come out and park there for the day. Okay, limited to one day. But if we go back to a it says each event may last up to three days. Yes. So for so B is in place now that's for residential. And this is non residential and A is for non residential okay. Non residential gets a three day stay. Residential get a one day stay right. Because it's in a residential area. So there was no appetite for opening up. And to my knowledge really no request to open that up any further. From, from okay the public and then all the way down at number two about generators. And this is where it gets kind of sticky because the generators make all the noise may only be operated. This is two under residential between the hours of 10 a.m. And 9 p.m. So that's an hour less than the commercial side. Unless. Yeah, that's that's number two under K. So that applies to all of them. That applies to all of them okay. Yeah. So they only get to run till the temporary only gets to run till 9:00 unless they ask for a special permission from the TRC. Yeah. Unless there's some reason for TRC to authorize it. I'm not sure what that would be, but I think the. The more, the better part of this is they can't start up the generator until 10 a.m. Either. So that's, you know, and then all the way back to the top, it's always about enforcement, right? So it's easy for us to write rules. You've got these. Great. Sign rules that we got that just they're so complicated and tough to enforce. This is going to be one of those. But I want to go back to the top about where they can be. I don't have a put in on, you know, sponge docks or city, but just just more or less where they can be. And it says, all right, we can put them anywhere that's non residentially zoned. So as I understand this, the, the, the regulatory process is that they have to apply for a permit to have the food truck. Anybody does a business tax receipt, business tax receipt. And when they do that that's going to go through planning and zoning department to verify that where they are putting it is in fact zoned non residential. Yes. Among other things, we'll first look at the zoning or the use. It'll it'll have to be if it's in a commercial zone. But it's a single family residence. It's being utilized as because we have a lot of those properties kind of tricky. We've got one right here on on Stafford Stafford just a little bit north. It looks all retail and mercantile. But in fact it's residential on underlying probably mixed like I say. So if it's mixed does residential trump that and mean that they cannot. Yes. So in that first paragraph that that second sentence does the very first paragraph of the ordinance clarify that that mixed use is considered non residential? But again, zoned or utilized. So if it is a residential, if it's a residence or townhomes or whatever, then then it, it doesn't apply to, to that property. They can't do this. They can't have a food truck. Okay. So then I got to do one more hypothetical and then I'll let other questions go. So. Ikara. Ikara down over here by the grocery store. That's a mixed use. They've got some little unused offices underneath. And then they got apartments above. But it's mixed use. That means that someone could set up two food trucks, run them seven days a week with their generators till 10 p.m. Underneath the apartments. Okay. To my knowledge, that's a residential property being used. And you know what? It is a mixed use zoning, but it's being used. It's 100% residential. So as far as where it gets sticky and that's why it's important we get into this. Because if you pull up there, they have business offices. They're not occupied, but they've got spaces down there that were supposed to be for, let's say, a realtor or a gym or something. No. Am I wrong on that? No. The I carry property itself was part of a larger mixed use project. Okay, so there are offices and it included the Winn-Dixie shopping center and all that. Yeah, carry a parcel. Property itself is strictly residential to my knowledge, but okay. Yeah. So I think you could get the crux. So what you're asking is if you've got a mixed use property. Yep. Can you do this. And yeah, you can basically we would look at we would look at it when the application came in. But yeah if the business again if people are operating a business between 7 and 10 or ten, 10 a.m. And 9 p.m, if they had a food truck, really, staff doesn't really, really see a huge extra impact with that. If there's already a business being operated next to a residence. But we could look at that with each individual application. Okay. And thanks for your patience. So I had questions and I just have one comment. And the comment would be I think that this could use some refinement. And then my thrust of some of those questions were, is that for everyone that loves something, there's someone that doesn't, and not that food trucks aren't a fantastic idea. I love beer, I love food, except that we often have to get the results of after. We think it's a great decision, but there's some people that don't, and I think that they're not being represented here, especially the residents who don't want a food truck that have to listen to it when they get surprised. So maybe there could be some finessing to protect those people from such a thing. Thanks for your time. If I could just just because I just want to go right off of Mr. Vessey said. Because it's a good point. And he's always brought up the fact that when we rezone things, there's a reason they were zoned a certain way. Right? And not just because of where they are, but because of everything around it. Okay. So it's a really good point to say that even if you're non residential doesn't mean you're like not right next to residential. And what Mr. Kusuda was, was hitting on was there's an Athens street down there and where I live and where he's got property and where we had the I think it was that road where they built the other house, the, the white House, that everybody was didn't like the architecture of. It's a, it's a mixed use. I think it's w one. Is it w o waterfront development district w one. But it's so technically it would go under non residential because it's mixed like I where I live I can't even get Fedex. I can't put that on an app because it defines me as commercial even though I'm not. Because just as you said, the default would be if it's mixed use. And so when they came for their application, they're like, oh, well, we're not trying to put something commercial there. We're like, well, we didn't think that you would, but you can't, right? And so that's the fear. And obviously that's what what we're saying is that this is we there's these little tiny like they're not loopholes. But that's what we're pointing out is that we're just trying to make sure that if the intent is for the breweries and distillery, does the city have a definition for what a brewery and a distillery is? If that's the case, let's define it for these distinct, you know, places. And if not, then maybe that's something we have to go back and do, because that seems to be I mean, they're the only people here tonight. So unless there's another intent that we're not aware of, which is I'm not I don't think that's what's happening. I think it's just a matter of just being a little bit too broad. I mean, I will say that right now, I practically I think the other thing that we had in place was not practical. Who wants to add a food truck to a food restaurant? I mean, that doesn't make any sense, right? So I don't think that that that's why we've had, what, two applications and one of them was next to me. It didn't work out. Yeah. Because you already have the food. That's the use. But then why are we making it so that they can just go, like, hog wild, you know, I think there's some comments, additional questions on this side and I apologize. I, I'm looking this way so I don't see. But but you haven't spoken. Then we'll work our way down to the other end. Yeah. And I did note a couple of questions. I'll come back and answer that. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for the explanation. And I think you've heard enough concern from the fellow members here about what we used to call factors of impact. So anytime there's change, there's people who love it. There's people who don't, as Mr. Vessey mentioned. And preponderance could go, you know, great one way or the other. But it comes down to a quality of life for especially these areas that have concurrence of use or directly adjacent to residential use, where maybe it's been quiet for decades. What I've always dealt with with quality of life complaints, was mostly due to frequency and duration. So you're allowing it every day. It may not happen every day, but you would be allowing it every day for a very good portion of the day so that that would cover the frequency and duration that usually starts to irk people. People may start off liking stuff, but whether it's noise or light or smoke or whatever, if it's starting to happen all the time, you know they're going to pray for the wind to change or for something a power outage or something of that thing. But what I found is, as people have brought up their specific places where it may be great, and maybe specific places where it's going to require a little more scrutiny. And the fact that we don't have predominant enforcement for when things are not going well or there's an acute incident or such, I think just it just warrants a little bit of guarding as to, you know, allowing a blanket permission for this to happen everywhere in the parking concern was brought up. And it does. You can have a food truck take up six spots, and now people come to eat as well as drink or whatever, and they are on the side streets and they're narrowing that and that becomes a public, you know, safety concern. Also people parking where they may not supposed to be parked, but it's dark and they don't know. And there's not signage and they don't even see that there's a driveway adjacent from it. So there's I think it's it should be more specific to the application. And hopefully that is in the plans to say, let's take a look at it on paper and then let's take a look at it in the field, because I found that what we see on the screen or on paper, and what happens out there on a regular basis can often be quite different. Yeah. So just just wanted to make that mention. Thanks. Thank you. If I could I absolutely I agree with everything Mr. Rothman just said and I, I don't profess to know the ins and outs of food trucks, but I know, you know, in sitting here and reading all this and listening to everyone I know, if I lived in a residence that happened to be mixed use or there ended up being a food truck truck by me, by my residence, I know how badly generators smell. I know how loud they are, and with people parking or not knowing how they should park, I mean, all that would really create a problem, I guess. I'm I'm babbling a bit, but I tend to agree that there needs to be a little more structure to this, a little more detail. And one other thing I wanted to throw out there, because I don't know who gets. Is they're going to be potentially competition for food truck permits. And how does the city determine who gets a permit and who doesn't? Not. Sure what what mechanism you're talking about that would generate competition. If a business. So the so the occupational license for lack of a better term is pulled by the business owner, not the food truck. The business owner pulls an occupational a separate occupational or a food truck use. So I'm not sure where the I'm not understanding your question on where the competition would be. So we're only talking about established businesses having food trucks as an extension. Yeah, not private food trucks that want to sell their food. They would then then the business, the brewery would then hire a food truck to sell their food. Okay. The brewery, if it's a brewery or whatever it is, would have the occupational license that that allows that use on the property. I just add to your I just got to ask a question. Let me finish this question. A quick question. It's 605 B, the mobile food truck dispensing unit shall not operate in any form, public right of way or city owned property unless operating in conjunction with an authorized special event, which is separate. So does this mean they cannot they cannot be put on the street. They have to be put in a special parking area or what. Yeah. And that's one of the they're not going to be on the street. They're going to be like in one of these establishments parking lot or something. Right. And that that's one of the questions that came up. So when they provide a site plan, it will have to be the food truck will have to comply with item C 5605 C. So they can't be in the drive aisle. They can't be in required parking spaces. They can't be on a walkway leading into the building. They cannot obstruct traffic, low pedestrian flow. They can't be in a handicapped spot. I think the example earlier about a food truck taking up a parking spot. Okay, so I'm guessing something like a hot dog cart, which is a food truck in this, the kind you see on the highway all the time in front of Lowe's or whatever. They could maybe fit into one, but if it's a requirement, there are plenty of businesses that have excess parking around. If it's a required parking space, then then they can't use that. They would have to be, say, next to the building out of the drive aisle. Some people, we've had a couple come in for temporary events. They'll put it on the grass for the day next to the parking lot or in the gravel or somewhere in their yard on their property. And like you're saying, it can't be on on any kind of city right of way, sidewalk, road. So that that would address the parking. Mr. Zambellas, just the thought I understood that the I'll use the brewery. The brewery would apply for an occupational license. Yes, for the food truck use, and then it could host any food truck on site. So does that become revenue for the brewery company? Because they're the ones occupying. They're the ones applying for an occupational license to add a food truck to their properties slash business. Because I think you're going to be they would be applying for that occupational license under their business. So does does the food truck sales count as revenue for the brewery? No, we have the occupational license now for food trucks because but you're saying that the second part of the order. I'm sorry. I thought you said that the food truck doesn't apply. No they don't. We have the occupational for the for the business owner to apply to have the, the under the second part of the ordinance that allows the permanent food truck with a business, the business has to apply for the occupational the food truck technically doesn't have to be theirs. That was well, it doesn't have to be brand branded as theirs. Let's play that out. The occupational tax is not collected by how much revenue. It's a straight fee. So they're just going to pay a straight fee like they do now on the business on on the food truck occupational license. In addition to their, their occupational, they already have for the business. So we don't have to worry about calculating. So if I'm is the point that you're getting at is that is this money even coming back to Tarpon Springs Springs? Because if the case is that there are people that just want to go to a certain food truck, which we have actually heard in January 7th meeting, I will go all the way to Saint Petersburg to go to this specific food truck. And if that's the case, then they might. These are the same people that said they actually bring their own food to our breweries. They'll probably bring their own drinks too. Okay, so if they're going to come all the way here just to see a food truck that isn't going to bring any revenue into our city, then that's just I think that's the point. And maybe and then the other thing I want to say, and obviously we all know they can't bring, can't bring. I think that's what the point the revenue comes from the increased business with with the with the business. That's where it comes from. Second and third or fourth this and I actually addressed this exact issue with Mr. Rudd about a month ago when this issue came up, was a was a concern about parking. And it's been echoed. Everyone has mentioned it here is because there is already a concern with some of these breweries and distilleries about parking, that they don't have enough parking as it is today. And I don't know even how that happened, but I can promise you that if they're putting a food truck in their parking, that it's our I mean, and they are parking the people that when they overflow because the limited parking that they have is they have enough money to be buying other things. They have enough money to be renting more parking and doing that. And they're already obstructing right of ways in extremely, you know, important in areas where, you know, I've addressed concern in that. So that and I'm glad that it was addressed tonight that there is a parking issue, especially when it gets into non residential but residential across the street. Because if they're coming just to see a food truck, they will just park in front of people's homes and it's going to be at night 10:00 at night, summer or winter, it's going to be dark out. You're not going to see stop signs. People will, I promise you. I see it every day. I can show you, show you the pictures. Code enforcement. Can they park right in front of stop signs, right after stop signs? They don't care. And especially if it's not their community. And that's certainly something that the police can be notified are not addressed in any of these. Yeah. On street parking is always an issue, but it can't be one that we just like just say it's an issue. We have to we have to address it. Okay? Okay. We invented this thing. Mr. Zimbalist has one more comment. I have one more comment. Personal question that I instantly was involved in. I'm not going to name the establishment, but I briefly was in a business with my son. That was. Beer only and liquor, and we were a part of a franchise and we would go to all the local restaurants, get their menus, negotiate a discounted rate so that we could make something off of that. And it was a win win. Then the franchise is sold and they decided they wanted to put kitchens in, and they went from kitchen one to model two, model three, model four. And the next thing we knew, the restaurants were now competing by putting beer, all the variety of beer in their restaurants. And we lost our business because of that. So I'm just thinking, are we looking at other business models besides a food truck? I mean, we've got a lot of restaurants here. You even got restaurants that are in nearby communities. Can that be a model where they look at negotiating with restaurants because it becomes a win win. You make money off of it because they'll discount there and they deliver the food. So you're not going to be limited to a lot of parking in a way. So something that I yeah, I'm familiar with what you're talking about. I have one more question. And then I think we need to open it up because we vetted this pretty pretty much. But Mr. Rudd, I have a question for you. That's okay. And I and I appreciate you. As you probably could see, I don't know if you're as a as a P and Z board. We try to vet these things pretty thoroughly, but before these changes in this ordinance. Couldn't the existing businesses who want a food truck, could they operate under the old ordinance? And why would change if they could? They operate under the old ordinance because they had to own the they would have to own the food truck. Okay. Okay. All right. It'd be like burgers and beignets. It has to say the name on the side. And. An investment. Discussion. So. All right. So I'm going to at this point, unless anybody has any more questions for Pat. And there was one question. Just so I think I answered the parking and improved loss questions. There was some question about enforcement noise, smell, smoke, lighting. So those are all things that we have ordinances that cover pretty much all of that. Now, I will say that the tarpon, you know, we did not allow food trucks at all. We've had lots of inquiries, especially after that first ordinance came in, a lot of inquiries from people that would come in to the lobby and ask about food trucks and tarpon. We hand them this regulation. They basically, you know, we really haven't we've heard one today that you've observed since epiphany. I know which one you're talking about. I live in town now, and I can think of one other one I've seen from time to time that I know hasn't come in for something beyond that. It's not like we've had a lot or even several food trucks coming in to operate illegally. As far as an enforcement problem, I think there's a perception we're going to have a huge enforcement problem. Maybe. Maybe not. We could we could see how this plays out. But all those items are things that that especially noise. I mean, I'm not sure with an added food truck if the business is generating that much noise. There's other things that may be happening live music, crowds, those things already are something that we address with enforcement. So just kind of wanted to capture that and bring it back, you know, and I know we do have some members of the public. Maybe they can expand on how they operate. Thank you. I guess it's an appropriate time to see if there's any public comment with regard to this. I just had a few things to say. I am not a business owner. Give your name and address, please. Jane Harrington, 1021 Jamaica Way, Tarpon Springs. Live here in Florida for just about five years. I am the one who spoke at that January meeting. I just want to let you know my husband and I chose to come here. We thought it was a wonderful place, but I can tell you I am tired of going to Dodecanese and have a loss. Or Rusty Bellies is about my only choice. I took my 95 year old mother out this afternoon to give her something else to do. We went to wine at the docks. So yes, there is another place on the docks that is not just beer. Wine at the docks. She loves the sangria. We ate the popcorn that they brought in from somewhere else, I don't know, hanging on the rack. My mother ate one of the great big bags of it. But you've got to realize, local people don't, just five years later, want to go to Hellas or Rusty Bellies. We want to be down on Dodecanese. Yes, parking is a problem. I can no longer take my mother to little shops on Athens Street because I can't get her parked close enough. That has nothing to do with a food truck. Parking is a separate issue. People want to experience other things. Other restaurants, a hot dog cart by at the end. Where where wine at the docks is. Do you know how many people would walk down to that end of the docks that don't walk down ther? Now that has nothing to do with the loss. We certainly we go to First Friday and the Merchants Association sells their beer and sells their wine. We go over to Craig Park. The Merchants Association makes their money with their beer, their wine. Why are we forbidding local places? Protecting the Greek and the local brick and mortar restaurants, whether they're the Italian, whether they're up on Safford, the. Tarpon Tavern, currents, all of those restaurants, wine society? Why not let there be competition? Everybody does not want to go to a restaurant, and I appreciate I'm sorry, I don't know your name, but I appreciate your idea of. Go in there, call up some restaurant, order, wait for it to be delivered. How long does that take to get down to the docks? I don't think that this is a problem that is going to take away business. I think you're going to bring more people. You go down those docks at 6:00 at night. It's dead. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do some music? It's mostly it's all commercial and have a food truck bring in new people. We started. It's unfortunate. We started going out of Tarpon just to experience different things. Because this gets. I never thought it would get tiring, but this has gotten tiring after five years. And we do. We do go out a lot, so we don't like to stay home. We like to go out new restaurants. That's what we like. So thank you. Give it some thought. Thank you. Any other comment? And I and I'm and I apologize. We try to limit to three minutes and I, I didn't no no I didn't I didn't stop you because I forgot to hit the timer. But go ahead. Hello. Jason Leonard, 311 North Safford. Brighter Days Brewing really just here to give you our experience, we're going on year five now in town. I can imagine the task of having to have a rule that encompasses different sections of town. Obviously, the docks is different than downtown is different than the CRA. With us, when we first looked at the property, which we do own the property. So we are business owners that property owners that pay taxes. So there's that piece too. But we were encouraged that that corridor where where we're at was supposed to help shrink the distance between downtown and the sponge docks with giving people something to do and using the trail, utilizing the trail to kind of help shrink that distance. So Covid obviously changed a bunch of things in this industry, when you get outside of Tarpon, it's symbiotic. The food truck with the brewery, that's kind of just how what people expect. So I don't want to say it's daily but it's multiple times a week. Hey, why don't you do the food like so, you know we deal with that. Those are the expectations of people that don't live in town, that come to town, that, hey, this is weird. Why aren't why aren't you doing this? When we first purchased the building in 2018, there were some limitations on what we could do. Kitchen wise. Sponge City came up. They have proven the model that food is now actually a requirement, like it used to be a nice to have, but now it's you kind of got to have it if you're going to if you're going to compete in this environment. So there are some fire hydrant issues and reasons why we couldn't get what we needed to the building that was anywhere near cost effective to be able to do it. So we definitely explored that. Obviously anything I say, it's speaking from our selfish position. It kind of sounded like you were talking something about a world of beer franchise. Oftentimes those were in a condensed kind of courtyard area where everything was walking distance. So man would love nothing more than to have all the local restaurants menus. But now we're blocks away from Tarpon Tavern, Backdrafts now you're talking about them having to staff differently and you know, to it's not as easy as someone being able to walk something down to the to, to the business. So we just want to do everything we can. Obviously it helps us. I don't think it's a it's a game changer by any means. But I tell you what, our customer expects it. However we can. You guys set the rules. We'll play by the rules. We just want to do it and do it the best that we can. So I appreciate everything you guys are doing and hopefully it works out. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good evening everybody I'm Matt Lane I'm also with you know brighter days. I just got some really really quick I think this is great. You know everybody can talk in bed and you know not agree disagree and things of that sort. I just want to tell a quick story of personal. So I opened up a food boat business, thought it was in tarpon and ended up being right by Miss Vickie's. And I was a third slip in and I actually fell over the boundary out of Tarpon into Pasco County. And we went round and round just like this and all that. And I asked one question one day I said, can y'all just come check me out and understand? And so I'm asking the same thing here with me and my partners here. Just come check us out. I get it, the grand scope of things and listen it it does sound broad, but just come check us out one time and see what we offer. See what we're trying to do, and understand the whole logistics of it before a decision is yes or no, because I get it. Everything is kind of complex and all that. And the last thing I would say is the generator, the noise and things of that sort. Technology has changed, just like these cell phones in our pocket. Some people's cars are louder than what, a generator. You know, one avenue we've explored is we're running a if we got it approved, running a cable, a 30 yard cable, that it's no generator, it's power right off our building. So the smell you run a diesel generator or anything these days, you got a problem, you know? So I would just say it's a great concern. But the technology and stuff these days is so much more advanced. And the. And the decimal noise, if you even ran a generator. But I leave you all with this. Thank you. They came out and seen me and they liked what I was doing, and they granted me to run a boat because I would just invite you out before you leave. Could you say your address, please? For the for the record, oh 311 North Safford with brighter days. Thank you and thank you for your time. I think it's great. Thank you. Okay. Well, you want to save that. Any more public comments? Okay. Let's see more public comment. Save that for a motion or whatever. Is there any other public comment? If not, is there anybody who's called in or any mail or any of that stuff with regard to no emails or at this point, I want to go ahead and close unless you want to address something. Pat, I was going to close a public comment and then we can discuss amongst the board. Okay. So I'm gonna go ahead and close public comment at this point. And now we can discuss amongst the board. And I'm wondering if we should do a motion first and then we can have a discussion. So at this point I would go ahead and entertain a motion. Oh I'll go ahead and make make the motion to. All right. Now that we've got a motion and a second. What's what's the motion. Well well if I want to make the motion to approve it would be with conditions. But I want I just really want to I want to discuss this. So I mean, my conditions are going to be like I can list them. Okay. It would be that this goes like I it would have to be that each special area code would be have each district would be distinct. So not within the special area code. It would have to be the sponge. Not not even just the special area plan would have to be the sponge docks downtown. The CRA. There would have to be we'd have to vet, you know, figure out how the timing that would have to be approved. Because I think that Mr. Rockline made a really good point about the all day, you know, I mean, my conditions are going to be like, what I'd really like to say is it should just go back for discussion and direction again. But I just really want to be able to discuss this because I don't think that we're going in the direction that's going to approve this tonight with any conditions, but if we can't talk about it, then, yeah. So I guess your motion is it's hard to define your motion because you have a lot of conditions because we really want to I think we want to progress with this. Okay. But you have to second what motion she's presenting. Okay. I'll rescind my motion. Yeah, but she's got a motion with conditions. You may not you may not want to second the conditions. Council. Can I resign my motion? Make a new motion. So if I may help. Second, let's let let me let Georgetta finish. So can I make a new motion? You want to amend your motion? Amend my motion? Yes. I'd like to amend the motion to apply just to breweries and distilleries. Apply just to breweries. And approve this. To apply to only breweries and distilleries. Okay, so the motion is to approve the ordinance specifically for breweries and distilleries to limit the food truck. The ordinance for the for food trucks to specific uses specifically for breweries as defined by the city. So there's a motion. Is there a second to that motion? I would second it if council could ask if council could answer a question of would we then require a separate, unique ordinance for all the other peripheral areas that are not breweries slash distilleries to, to go forward for, for that purpose? So I just want to clarify, make sure I understand you correctly. You want to have it for a second area. Well, the motion brought up by Miss Francis is specifically for breweries and distilleries. Would the P and Z department then have to formulate a separate ordinance for presentation and discussion for all the other areas that this was, the original ordinance was going to encompass? Well, I think the intent here tonight, because you are also the local planning agency, is to make the recommendation to the Board of commissioners, which is going on February 4th. Fourth. Yeah. But to answer your question, or would it be to just make a recommendation in the negative? Well, let me answer that question. So no, we wouldn't we wouldn't have to write separate ordinance if that those changes were made. They could be made in this ordinance. We would just it would just be probably. Maybe longer, maybe, maybe not longer. But I'm not sure. But the changes could be made in the in the ordinance we have now. Okay. I don't know that we'd have to adopt a separate would it help it? Maybe if I think you may have hit the nail differently when you were trying to define it per area, and not necessarily for business type mine. And that's what I'm trying to get with councils, because my intent is that we're supposed as the local, we're supposed to make a recommendation. I don't want to if I can't make a motion in the affirmative to do anything that I can't, we can't discuss it. So if I from unless I'm wrong, I've been told I can't make a motion in the negative. But if unless that unless we can have discussion, we want to we want to help and move this forward. So I'm just trying to see the best way, but I don't want to. The way it's written now, I just don't think it's I don't think there's any condition that we could add to make it workable, because it's just so out there. If you want to include certain zoning districts and name them specifically, I think I think that's I think that's what you were trying to narrow down to. And if, if the board will, will allow us to vet the district, that might make it a little bit palatable to move this thing forward. So do you want to try to. Yeah. So to amend the motion to the current motion and the prior attorney would read the whole motion. So you may want to revise it. But so they can have it on the record for the whole the number and everything. Just so let me ask you this question. I know there was the concern. The board had a concern for mixed use properties. Would you want the motion to include the availability to allow this for mixed use properties? My motion would be no. But I if we can add it, you know, that's a condition that somebody else wants to add to. Second it. I just want to make sure that this we can move forward with discussion. So my recommendation would be not mixed use residential. Non residential. The non residential will be non mixed use at all. Just purely commercial. That's the okay. So your motion would be something to the effect. Your amended motion would be something to the effect of allow or approve with the recommendation that this be allowed in non residential commercially zoned properties only commercially zoned no mixed use. And then specifically zoned by district or zoned by by every district would have their own. So okay can can I ask a question? Yes. Are you. So first you said breweries and distilleries. I think I heard that you're mostly concerned with this area. It's a small area that's pretty much, you know, 90%. It's all mixed use. Do you want to specify only breweries and distilleries in that area and leave the rest? Did we get a do we have a definition in the city code for breweries and distilleries? No, but we can. I don't think so. I was going to look, but we can we can come up with one that's that shouldn't or we can just use the dictionary. We really want to limit the breweries. And what what about other businesses? Well, let's get it. Let's get a motion. Let's get a motion. And then you can discuss what we don't want to do is just say no to this and give direction to the board. But because we are so far apart right now, I don't we are like really far apart. Yeah. So if that was your intent, you could say. In the special area plan, only breweries and distilleries can do this. That would cover basically the sponge docks in downtown. Yes, but that addresses the breweries and distilleries. Then in residential, you still have an ordinance that would deal with residential. With their conditions like that, you identified no more than two years. I'm just saying we break it down by the type of area slash business. Can I make a motion in the negative and then so we can have discussion okay. Let's, let's we're going we're going all over the place. So let's I know I understand but let's, let's we're going all over the place with a bunch of discussions on motions. So if you have a motion I'll just I don't want to propose anything. That is not the way that to me, I if we can't word it in a way that's going to be and it may have helped and it may have helped if we had a map of the districts that if we were looking at putting this thing forward, we may look at restricting this to certain districts and allowing it in other districts. And I think that's where you were trying to they're not defined. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that what you're saying? I would like that. I just I would like us to discuss it. If I can make a motion the negative, which I don't know if there is a rule against it. That's what I'm trying to ask. If there's a way that I can just to say that no, make a motion to or just, you know what? Your motion. Withdraw your motion. Let somebody make a motion and you can vote. We can vote yes. Up or down. Also I withdraw. So at that. So let's go ahead if anybody. So you've withdrawn your motion. Yeah okay. And there was no second because we haven't defined what your motion was. So at this point if anybody wants to entertain a motion. Then go ahead. And then if we get a second then we can discuss whether or not we want to move forward up or down. So, chair, I'm making a motion that we deny ordinance 2020 501 as written. Is there a second? Okay. Now we can have discussion. Now we can have discussion, if I may, since I made the motion, we can all agree that the ordinance is promoted, provided us is deeply flawed. Yes, but it is not our job to write the ordinance. It was our job to provide feedback to staff, to our city manager and to everyone else. They need to improve the ordinance and bring it back to us when it encapsulates all the good thoughts that are there. And if I made as a side note, I thought just breweries and distilleries was a really good idea. You had me right there. Okay, so we're so at this point there's a motion to. What did you say deny, deny, deny as written and provided. All right with okay. So do you want to. So there's a motion. There's a second. We'll have a discussion. And you've partied. You've gone forward with the discussion. And I think what you said has merit. I think this thing needs to be revisited with some. I think it would help if we were able to have some, if we wanted to limit this. We're not saying I don't think we're saying no, but I think we're saying we need more definition as to area, because obviously there's certain areas that that this the food trucks may be more applicable for, for approving in certain areas that that probably is not consistent with, with what we're trying to preserve. So we have the motion. We have a second. I'm gonna go ahead and other other than any other discussion before I call for the motion. We've been at this for about an hour and a half. So I would all I wanted to say for the last 20 minutes. Okay. I'm sorry. That's okay. All I wanted to say was I was sitting here and it dawned on me, I drive all the way to Home Depot for a hot dog in their little stand that's outside. Okay, I drive all the way there just for the hot dog. Good. Chicago and. Yeah, okay. Any good discussion? I do have one more item as guidance to staff for rewriting and revisiting. Yeah. And I would recall. The public either now or after, I need a list of like you just said, more definition for areas. I just need some guidance or some concerns to list. I can give three guidances in the positive. I can only speak for myself. Yeah, specifically targeting a yes and a carve out for breweries. Carve out in the yes for distilleries. And then perhaps a note I would do a carve out for no generators. That permanent land power that would solve that noise issue is what gets everybody. They need to be plugged in. Okay. At the providers source. So those are my three that I would say, hey, I'd love to see that again. Anyone else? Yeah. Parking. Also Pat, if you would delineate the areas that we may be looking at, you know, approving or carving out as, as an exception, I think that would that would be more beneficial than anything. And let me clarify, carving out as an exception. As an exception, let's say we talked about, you know, sponge docks downtown and, and, you know, the alternate 19 corridor where some of these places are, you know, to, to allow the allow or not allow, like the downtown may be allowed, you know, you know, different rules for each district. Yeah. In other words, downtown may we may limit the, the ordinance for downtown businesses or alternate alternate 19 businesses and maybe a carve out, you know, maybe the you want to call the what do they call it, not the Greek town historic what do you call it again? The. Well, yeah. But I mean, that's we're kind of I understand you don't understand what I'm trying to get to. Okay. All right. For the fourth time, I don't think you want to say brewery or refinery. I mean, I I'm not a beer drinker, and I haven't gone to the refinery, but I like wine. And, you know, if you want to do this, you should say alcohol serving businesses, because they're not all wineries or breweries, and I don't even agree with that. But if you are going to say something, say that. But the hot dog stand she just mentioned, it might be by Lowe's that's not even attached to an alcohol serving place. Okay. So we had a motion. We had a second. We've had discussion. I want to go ahead and call for the motion. A roll call please. And this was just to deny. Yeah. And this is a yay means denial. So roll call please. Miss Swenson. No, miss early yay means denial, correct? Yes. Yay! Alkaline. Yes, miss Francis? Yes, Mr. Zambellas? Yes, Mr. Vessey? Yes. Mr. Chris Curtis. Yes. Okay. The motion carries. And just a comment. It's this is not necessarily a no. This is for to define defined it a little bit better because where you where you are, your businesses are a little bit, you know, unique locations where there's certain locations that that may not be appropriate. Okay. Better defining the ability to use the food trucks. So in a way that benefits that area okay. Moving on. I've been the last couple of meetings I've been serving as, as because I was vice chair, I was obviously moved up to chair for these meetings. But I think we need to have. An election of officers. And so at this point, I want to go ahead and open the door for nominations for board chair. I'd like to nominate Mr. Curtis for board chair. Second, that seconded. Mr. Dixon. Thank you. You were too slow. I was too slow. Oh, well, I don't know if the chairman can nominate. I have to step aside. Well, let's let's do a roll call now. What's yes and what's no, Miss Winston? Yes. Miss early. Yes, Mr. Rochlin? Yes, Miss Francis. Yes, Mr. Zambellas. Yes, Mr. Vessey. Yes. Mr. I'll abstain. I you know, I appreciate the confidence. You know, hopefully I could do a good job as Merrill did because he was very excellent. He was excellent at it. So we need to go ahead and make a motion for a vice chair. And can I do I get a lot to step aside and make a motion, or do I have to let somebody else? I'll make a motion for Mr. Vessey, for vice chair. Is there a second? I didn't hear the motion for Mr. Vessey, for vice chair to be the. Vice chair. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. Any other discussion? If not, let's have a roll call. Miss Swenson. Yes, Mr. Hurley? Yes. Mr. Rockline. Yes, Mr. Francis? Yes. Mr. Zambellas. Yes. Mr. Vessey. Yes. Mr. Chris Curtis. Yes. So, okay. That being said, is there any comments from from the staff? No, thank you. And any comments from the board. I do have one comment, Pat, and I've been known to keep meetings longer than they probably need to be, but I want to. Commend you for bringing this forward. Obviously, you know us that we try to vet everything and we're pretty sometimes difficult, but we try to get it right so we don't have to have issues or questions later on or something that's ambiguous out there. That staff later on is uncertain. The direction or what the what the what's intended. So we'd rather vet it, deny it, refine it and move forward. So thank you very much because we appreciate that we hear things that we might not have thought of. I mean it's very helpful. Thanks. Thank you. Likewise, Pat. Both you and the city manager coming in off air. And that perspective. And yeah, and I thank you for bringing that up because I really want to thank you, Mr. Rudd, for coming, because as a, as a P and Z board, unfortunately, we've never had often the luxury of having a city manager here that allows us to, you know, so thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay. Yes. Thank you. And that I'm going to call this meeting adjourned at 806.