Right. Um, you guess you guys hear us. Can someone Gold or Denise or Adam let me know you hear us? And Adam has to leave at 9:30 for court. We have Mark. >> He says yes. >> He says yes. Okay. So, why don't we start? Uh, the purpose of the just for
the record, there is a fourth council member that's on Zoom. She's not a panelist and she's unable to speak. So, she's listening only voice of counsel. so that she is allowed to be on and our council said she could but she cannot speak and not be able to speak. Um the
purpose of this meeting is and I'm going to turn it over to deputy mayor is to get 189 built or simply put potentially lose all your lose all your approvals. So I'm going to turn it over to Karen Oregon and >> really we just want to know >> volume
>> really we just want to know where you are with this what your next steps are and what we can expect to see because the year having another year extension didn't sit well with council. Um we brought it back to a month so that we could meet and we want to know
realistically what we can expect to see. >> And if I ask Mike to join, can you tell us where we stand, what this temporary agreement is and how many days and what what's required. >> Sure. So the the request was for a secondyear extension to the redevelopment agreement. Uh the project
already has site plan approval. Um the request for the second year was amended and the extension of the redevelopment agreement is through um January 20 or January 30th. I believe
the last >> the purpose right the purpose was for us to be able to meet and discuss details and then see where we go from there. >> Right. So I think um you know we'll give you the floor and if you can explain um
you know why uh you sent the extension request, what's needed at this time and and you know anything you can share with us to support that. Um you know we're here to listen. >> All right. Um so thank you uh Jason
Tubal, attorney for the Salomon Builders. Adam Lazarus from my office is here. Jack Raker is with Minowasco. He's the new architect that the developer has brought on board to to review the project. [clears throat] And then you know Jonathan Bogle and Steven Yanowitz
from from Solomon Builders. So here's where we are. Jonathan has spent the last two years or so after this project was approved by the planning board trying to get financing from banks and bring on partners to help build this
project. um he's gone through several banks, several um attempted partnerships to help him build this and the numbers just don't work. And I'll explain that and he and Jack can get into more of the
technical details as to why that that and then I'll explain also where I think we should go from here. [clears throat] um the way that the project was approved um is is just too is too expensive of a build as it relates to building um infrastructure as it relates to the
layout of of the units, the parking and some of the other aspects of it. And then you're going to ask, well then why did you propose it that way if it was if it was too expensive to build? I mean, and that's what I asked them also because we're going to have to explain that to you. We gave you performs. You
guys gave us a financial agreement. So why didn't you know this to begin with? I'll let Jonathan explain a little bit more, but I think the high level is a construction costs went up and bonathan when he was uh consulting with his original architect and some other
consultants, you know, they just designed the building too expensive. And unfortunately, that's the the the banks and the other partners that he's looked to team up with have verified that. So he's tried over the last two years diligently to try to make the project
work in the manner that it was approved. And I can tell you that he's suffering in a sense that and this isn't the bounds problem, but he's paying exorbitant amount of taxes, mortgage interest, and other maintenance costs on the property. Um, so what what do we
need to do? Minowasco was brought on board to re-evaluate what the initial design was. I can have Jack speak to it in a little bit more detail after Jonathan, but the goal would be a redesign that would not require a zoning amendment. So, the redevelopment plan would not have to be
changed. We could build within the footprint of the building that was approved by the the council in terms of the redevelopment plan and the planning board with respect to the site plan. His drawings now are conceptual. So, in terms of site plan approval, if the
layout changed, even if it's within the box, that'll be up to I guess the township to determine whether it's the zoning officer or the planner as to whether we have to go back to the board. We'll have to for site plan, we'll have to deal with that. But I guess the point that I'm trying to make is the building won't get taller. The building won't get
wider. The number of units is not going to go up. The affordable units are going to stay the same. That's all going to remain. It's just that the overall layout might change. some of the building infrastructure might might change. So before I hand it over to
Jonathan, the goal would be to have Minowasco keep going on their redesign of the interior and the exterior. I think we should have periodic meetings with the township that discuss progress because if you're going to give us
another extension, you should know what's going on because it's a redevelopment agreement. So we should talk whether it's monthly, bi-weekly, whatever you want to know that the developer is doing everything they can to get this done and that the extension is, you know, you're keeping an eye on
what's on what's going on with respect um to the extension. So So that's the goal. That's where we are. The last since the approval, Jonathan has worked diligently because he's bleeding money on this to try to get this um built and it just hasn't come to fruition purely
on economics. asks the question is some you basically told us that from a council and town point of view we're not even going to know if you do something different inside it's all internal right >> yeah I but I think it's important because it was presented in public at
the board with with with floor plans and things like that that that everybody saw so we want you to be aware of what's of what changes might >> our our plan is to expand the building a little bit but not the the footprint just the the building itself to have larger units um because what We we did a
a study, spoke to the same marketing people that did 1500. Um you know, they noticed that the the larger units are able to uh command certain rents that enable the project to work.
>> Yeah. So, and I think Jack will can talk let him talk about that. >> Jack, what building did you do in Tina? I I apologize. I know the name, but >> about Yeah. 1500 for for being >> So, I heard the name like I heard this name now from the nightmares. Okay. I remember got >> Yeah. So when I say within the within
the footprint, what I'm trying to say is we would not need any zoning relief. Correct, Jack? As a >> That's correct. We're within the existing zone. >> So I'm looking at the site plan. Um I think you had uh an amenity space, an outdoor amenity space along State
Street. >> Yeah. >> And are you proposing to expand the the upper floors over that area? Yeah, basic basically that would be that would be the main change on the building. >> It'll the four 48 units it's still going
to be 48 units. They're just it's just going to be a little bit uh longer, wider. Um but it's going to look substantially similar to, you know, what was approved. >> Take it away, J. >> Uh sure. I have some handouts here I can
hand out. Um I have previous plans. It seems to them not we're not able to put on June. What would we say? >> I think there were digital files. >> You said the digital files to but these are again still very preliminary. So we're happy to have additional meetings.
>> These are the existing approved existing >> these are proposed these are proposed. I just want to add al also that um that I worked very hard to uh to to win
everyone over speak with lots of community members. I'm a lifelong Tina resident and um and this got approved with um 100% everyone voted for it. Everyone was, you know, even even people who in
town traditionally don't love development, um, came out and, uh, and were and spoke, you know, um, and we all want to see this built and and we're going to get it done. All right. >> Right. >> No one's against this project. We want it built more than you have at this point.
>> I just I want to work together with you guys. Um, I I just want it to be harmonious and and, you know, let's let's get it built. And with that, >> can you just verify though some of the things that I said and also what you communitywise what you've been doing with the property since you know since
it's been vacant? >> Uh yeah, absolutely. So, so as you said, we we've gone out to to many funding sources. Um and um there the the deal was always very tight even when we we
went for the pilot agreement. Um and with uh with with the with construction costs being uh going up and and interest rates going up and also the type of the the the way the building was designed
and Jack will talk about how we're going to save uh and and and make this uh viable um the the materials that were chosen, the type of construction, the the way that the um the the parking deck and and the the uh the parking layout
was done. We could save significantly uh on those things. Um so um yeah, also over the course of the last two years I was meeting with different developers who have uh who have substantial
experience uh just try trying to trying to find places where we could uh where we could we could save or how how we can get it, you know, get it financed and get it done. And I was willing to take on partners. I was even willing uh at
one point to uh to bring in someone and and sell a substantial portion of of the property to them for them to take over um at a at a at a financial loss. At a tremendous financial loss, uh I was willing to do. Um but even in that case,
they took six or seven months. They looked at it. They you know and and they said, "Look, the the numbers just don't work. You need a bigger building here. you need many many more units in order to make this work. Um and uh you know I told them they have to stick with what
we got approved. Um and that it you know with with that um brings us here today. So, the the latest thing uh is that uh I called up um a a developer uh that that
I know and I uh who does purely residential uh and um and really went through it with him, spent spent a lot of time on the business plan on what type of apartments could command the rents that
are necessary to make it viable. Uh and that's how we came up with this this plan where the apartments would be uh a little bit larger um and that the you know maybe some of the uh some of the
spaces that we weren't able to monetize like the uh were were kind of made made a little bit smaller but you have to >> you're basically switching most of the apartments to three bedrooms. Um, essentially I'll I'll let me start.
Let's start with some of the bas reducing amenities and three bedrooms because that's the demand because people are staying there longer. The three bedrooms at one 500 and at the mark are quite expensive. Um, the living proportion increase in sizes to the on the low unaffordable as well. And that's
a story. Yeah. >> If no one's buying houses, so they're staying longer and having more kids and they're paying more money. >> Correct. Which I'm doing at 500. So I get right. So, so one the first thing we eliminated was the ramp between the two levels of garage. It's it didn't really service anything. We have access to both
levels of the garage and it was taking up space. So, we utilize that space to get more parking. So, we eliminated the ramp between the two levels. We have access from the plaza to the lowest level. There's circulation around that level um and ways in and out of that
garage. At the second level of garage, that's the State Street level. We have the public 22 public parking spaces which are provided. The separation of the of the residential spaces as well. We've maintained that but we just don't have the ramp that interconnects the two
levels. That was a big inefficient part of the initial design that we no longer we're we're utilizing all the spaces and uh added parking to the project. >> Okay. Quick question uh about parking. Um, is parking changing the number of of
parking spaces changing in any way? >> We are increasing the number of parking spaces. >> Yeah. Deputy mayor, did you hear he what what Jack is saying there? There'll be more more parking spaces as a result of the redesign. >> Okay. But the ra the parking ramp is
going to be altered is what you're saying. >> Yeah, it'll be eliminated. Correct. >> It's eliminated. Yeah, the parking ramp is eliminated. >> Mhm. And so we're and we're going to 100% threebedrooms. Is that what I'm hearing? Per unit. >> Um yeah, why don't you Yeah, why don't you break down the >> Let me give you a summary. There are some uh there's about seven two-bedroom
dens and 34 three-bedroom units for a total of 41 market rate units and then we have to provide the uh the uh afford affordable units and those that mix is already predetermined. >> Okay. But let's speak for a minute about
the affordable housing units. Does that also increase to to the 300? >> No, we have the we have the same number of units. That's seven affordable units and the state requires what that mix is. >> And Jack, I guess also what Denise might be asking or Tom is do the units
themselves change like the layouts, the square footages of those units? >> They have changed from the initial layout. Um they're they've moved in location in the building. We stack them. We make sure that they're all stacked now. uh just for building efficiency.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> So, at the [snorts] second level, you can see level what we're calling level three. We've moved the amenity terrace to sort of an interior uh courtyard area. And then we've expanded the building out over you look at because
it's sheet A 103 of the approved plan. There's that amenity terrace, that green amenity terrace. We've taken that and expanded the footprint of the level above to cover that. Additionally, this [snorts]
uh project envisioned full terraces all the way around the building. Those can be very expensive to construct. We've given everybody terraces, private terraces. We've just shrunk them down to more of a market rate size about 8 by 12, something like that. Um, it's a
generous terrace, but it's not it's not like the terraces that were planned in the initial dealing. And essentially, that's the sum of the bulk of the changes. We haven't elevated the building yet. We haven't taken a look at what it will look like. We're we're hoping that, you know, if we get
positive reaction here, we can start to expand uh and and develop the aesthetics of the building. We feel we can develop a really nice look here. Um, thanks. >> And Jack, just just to reiterate because I think it's important. The the bulk standards, the height, we
are going to stay within the requirements of the redevelopment plan. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> I I'll talk first. This is a no-brainer. This has always been a no-brainer on getting killed wherever we go about the lack of a lack of apartments. Affordability is a separate issue and
and whatnot and 47 is not going to make a dent on it. But the supply is becoming a big issue. people calling them on there's a waiting list or what not. So for us it's all we want to get this built. It's just a matter can we get this built and when and that's really when can we file for merits.
>> What's your timeline then? >> What's your timeline? When is there skin in the game for the town? When can we when can we see a check and I'm not asking for the money hungry situation. When can we the town see some skin in the game for a permit for this building? I think that's what it I understand this
is a financing issue and whatnot, but when and I'm going to talk out loud is when is there going to be a demo? When is there going to be footings? Those aren't expensive permits. I understand financing, but keep in mind this town we had 329 Alfred Avenue topped off before financing. I guess that's a different player. I I think what we're going to
have to do though, if everybody's agreeable to, you know, the extension aspect of this, Jack will have to re do this redesign, the elevations, the floor plans, and then we're going to have to update, unless Mike disagrees with me, the redevelopment agreement because, you know, it'll some of the exhibits would
change, and then I don't know if the financial agreement will have to be updated as well to reflect the latest plans that um we that we would have we' be building, right? I mean, I think we'd have to look at all that. I mean at a minimum is the redevelopment that it needs updating. Yeah. Um you know I
think >> going into this meeting we were not clear on the township side what the proposed changes quickly. >> I think now the comprehensive zoning review is probably our first step. Make sure that what you're proposing now
actually complies with the redevelopment plan. I don't know if you've done that analysis. >> Well that's why it's we have. Yeah we we've done that look. um and we feel we comply um with the redevelopment. >> So, but what I want to get you though is a is a site plan and an elevation because I know there'll be a lot of
questions. Did the building get taller? You want to verify that the building? You want to verify that we comply with all the other requirements within the redevelopment plan. So, we should get you a compliance chart um if we have if we meet, you know, shortly after this meeting as well.
>> Yeah. And and I guess um when it comes to the redevelopment agreement, you know, there were certain requests made for information when we did this month-long extension. >> Um you know, we'll need a response to that. um part of you know this new concept I
guess you know you're you're coming to us revising the project because interest in the market was not you know what you anticipated it would be initially based on your original approved concept you do you have firm
commitments interest with this revised plan now you know or are we going to approve an extension get new approvals and place whatever we think that requires and then we're we're kind of stuck in the same situation. So,
>> uh are you talking from a financing aspect? >> Financing or or or partners or you know >> what I'm what I'm asking more directly is, >> you know, will you be able to >> project on a timeline that we agreed to now and
not have to continue to extend later? Okay, I I'm gonna answer it honestly. Um, so, um, the amount of equity that's needed, um, there's about there's there's still a, you know, a few a few
dollars that has to be that I have to raise for it. Um, I've already I have well over half of what I need, which is really good. Um, I think I could not I would [clears throat] go back to my
funding sources with this plan now that you know we we got really we got good feedback and with our our new proforma and um I'm happy to give you a really good update the next time. But I will tell you that the the golden rule for
all these guys is they they like to see somewhere between a 6.5 and a 7% return. um on the the a yield on the whole project. And so according to the um all
of the numbers we've run and rerun on this plan. So we finally get there. We're not like over seven. We're we're really it's also it's it's not uh it's it's still a little
tight, but I think it can get done. uh especially because it's not uh it's not a a huge apartment building. It's 48 units. Um so the am the amount of time it's going to take to rent up will be a lot faster than a much larger building.
So they they like that. I feel confident, not like overly confident, I feel confident um that that this plan can get done. My confidence will rise. now you know by you know with this
meeting and with going to uh financing sources and I'm happy to come [clears throat] back just tell you the truth just tell you what uh you know how things are going that's just truthful
>> so timelinewise how long do you think it would take to go back to the funding sources what are what are you asking from us now if not a year um if you want to rein that in a little it. So, what what do you think really? >> I think I'm going to just I'm going to
run parallel paths. I'm going to go uh for all the financing. Um you know uh just now what what there's a little bit of a timing tricky trickiness and we'll also go for zoning at the same time.
What's tricky is that banks uh don't want to give commitments until you have a date, a start date. It's the same question you guys are asking, right? Like they're not going to do it like they're not going to give me a term sheet for something that's nine months
out. So, we kind of have to. So, what we've done was we got some soft quotes very recently um that came back and we were able to put them in a proform and they worked from real uh lending institutions. Um I'm going to make those
a little bit less soft, but they're not going to be real commitments until we're really close. It's kind of like I don't know. there's that we're going to have to have some faith in this. I I can tell you I'm going to work as hard as I can. I can
tell you that, you know, um I'll go I'm going to I can tell you I'll be honest with you. I can tell you that I'll, you know, I'll be in communication with you and if I if it if it doesn't go right, um you know, uh I'm happy to just let
you know because I don't want to waste the money or the time either, honestly. every month costs uh an enormous amount which is uh and also with the the taxes being raised on it. It's just a lot. But I think also um
Jack Minowski, you guys do a ton of apartments and um and you see the financing uh of lots of developer clients of yours. Um, would you also feel confident that we
just I I think I don't know maybe it's I mean have I built buildings like this this size? Yes. So I put this together before, not in this current climate, you know, I haven't done one just recently, but um we've built buildings of this
scale, this yield, this level of parking. We've done these before. So I know it's doable at least in previous years whether it's you know you know I feel very confident that that we've done designed an efficient building and uh and you know >> the banks aren't going to give that
commitment until the official approval also until the amendment until the redevelopment agreements updated and the pilots in place so that we have all the right numbers and and everything to give them. So, we're we'll continue to get soft quotes, but we're not going to get an official. >> We'll get soft quotes, but I'm also but
I'm also I'll tell you what the most important thing to me is is getting those equity partners uh to to get us all the way there. If I get if I get the 100% of the equity and then the the debt, which we're we're going to have to
wait until we're close to putting a shovel in the ground, is if that's like the missing leg. Um, I'll try I'm going to uh the hope is I'll raise enough money that even if
those uh quotes come in short of of the mark that I'll still be able to to get it built. Um, I don't want to embarrass anyone. I I want to see this thing built. Those stores that are there that have been vacant for 40 years, it's it's
not nice. The the the parking lot's not nice. Um, you know, uh, it's it's time. And my office is right down the block, you know. Uh, I see it every single day. I want to see it built. I'm I'm I here I can promise you I'm not wasting time.
I'm not making this is not a low priority for me. This is something I need to make a decision on now. It's just if I don't, it's just bleeding money that I'm never getting back. I mean we I think the year extension is appropriate but we could do it in phases
where you see us hit milestones in a way that you know that progress is being made also. So I know like the last time we asked for a one-year extension it was just sort of a perform a one-year extension but we can do the extensions with milestones that the developer has to hit so you guys feel that progress is
being made. You know I think that's also something we can you know discuss and hammer out details on. that would make me more comfortable. >> Yeah, I I think that makes sense. I mean, that the initial redevelopment agreement um you know, you were pretty
close to having approvals when that agreement was signed. I think you me had the site plan application pending bought out was signed. Um I think any amendment would have to have as you're suggesting
you know phases um you know conditional extensions as you're going along so that you know as you're saying you want to be transparent with us and I think the township's going to want to know how you're progressing. >> I'm happy to be transparent. I I
definitely I think it's I think it's good for for us both. I I want you to see how hard I'm working on it and that I'm not wasting time. Um I I very much look at this as like as a partnership. We both want to see this built. Um I just I don't want it to be like too
ownorous on me. I don't want like the timelines to be like so short that it it makes it a a difficult you know uh a difficult project anymore than it has to be. So, um, well, I think that's
incumbent on on you and your team to be very candid with us as to, you know, what your challenges are, >> how much time you need, and and what the goal will be going forward. I think that's >> No, I agree. >> That's all that's all we can
>> And just just so everybody understands, this would be Jonathan's third attempt at this. We got approved at the zoning board, approved at the planning board after redevelopment. He spent a lot of money trying to get this project built and has been relentless at move trying to move it forward. So
>> and there's also >> well I I think what I heard was and you know you've got the architect from 1500 Phoenix Road working on this. So I think this was one of the original redevelopment projects kind of
considered conceptually in town >> and now that now there's an actual market of rented units and feedback from the market on on you know what the customer wants an apartment >> and how much they can afford, right? How much they can pay. So you're you're
actually just revising your building to be consistent with the market render demands here in Tina. >> Yeah. >> And that helps you go to banks and say, "Look, I have comps down the road. I'm using the same guy. We know what renters
want." And and that's kind of what this revision is for. >> Yeah, it's definitely helpful. >> Um I think we just want to get this built. So, this seems to be the easiest way to get this built instead of reinventing the wheel. But we also didn't want to give a really long
timeline and then be back here a year from now saying the same thing. >> I hope you could find something in the middle. >> I understand that position completely. >> We'll go talk with our other council members. >> Sure. >> And then we'll circle back. We have some quite a bit of stuff going on the next few weeks. We'll circle back within the time frame. >> Yeah. I think it's the end of the month.
And do you want in the meantime? >> Uh before the end of the month, Jack said he could have elevations done also. We could we could meet again and Jack could show you the elevations. Whatever whatever the council needs. We could meet with the other council members that weren't here. Whatever
whatever the council needs to feel comfortable what we're doing. >> Our next meeting is on the 27th. That would be the full council. That would be the next opportunity to speak. >> But we'll speak with them between now and then. We'll circle back to try to have something. We would need to, if I'm correct, have something on the agenda. Correct. >> Right. >> Yeah. and and a priority for us is to
figure out okay this is the new concept you know does this comply with the redevelopment >> I think that and also what the parameters of the extension would be uh for the council to consider >> but we can't make that decision now we're going to adjourn now and we're going to get with our colleagues over
the next two weeks and we're gonna go from there okay so meet and thank you