well good morning everybody uh I'd like to call the meeting to order welcome to the uh Council work session of February 27th the purpose of this meeting is to discuss potential amendments to the city's Land Development code this is part of a ongoing process that we begin
oh I don't know a year year and a half ago maybe to uh look at sections of our Land Development code that may be in need of revision or up dating in light of uh the circumstances of today and so forth so um council members anything
before we start city manager anything okay so um I doesn't say so on here but I assume we're turning it over to Mr Paulie only briefly sir only briefly well you well I hope it's long enough to tell us what to talk
about so Mr Polly thank you sir good morning once again everyone Greg Paulie your community development director uh this morning I have just a couple of brief slides um my goal this morning is yes I'm sorry is it not close enough
yeah is that better thank you um my goal this morning is to hopefully spark some uh creative and uh in some cases Innovative conversation with regards to our current Land Development code and to
seek guidance um from from this council with regards to what each of you may want us to focus on um if we could bring up the slides please some things that have changed since the last uh LDC Workshop obviously
there's a new director uh in the chair and um not having worked with the former director uh closely on these topics I simply want to make sure that the focus of today is exactly where it should be
um obviously we've lost a council member from the previous sea in Council uh Meredith Abel is no longer with us and um Mr Kravitz has joined the council and lastly most recently as you all recall we did update the fence walls and hedges
ordinance uh section 12861 which also included updates to non-conforming properties as well as the definition section so again during today's Workshop uh staff I've got my I've got my staff with me here today um I do apologize our
city planner is uh in Tallahassee on a pre-scheduled um working seminar conference and she could not be here today but we did spend a great bit of time discussing uh this Workshop as well as some of the other previously
discussed uh a or previously discussed LDC updates so we do seek to acquire guidance uh from this council with regards to um what you would like to see us focus on staff further seeks to
reaffirm Andor in some cases clarify earlier guidance that may have been discussed at the last LDC workshop last year or even the previous one before that the prior year this guidance and feedback that we collect today uh again staff is um is
going to be taking vigorous notes and uh references as to today's discussion we hope to use this guidance to assist staff in aligning priorities to help keep the Target in focus and to establish benchmarks to ensure future
proposed updates support your direction and with that as I mentioned in my opening um my slides for for this section I do have others to speak about uh maybe towards the end of the meeting but for this section I I would like to
clear the Slate hence the blank slide on the screen and open it up to the council and if if you would please um I I welcome any new ideas that you would like to see us focus on or if you wish to revisit some of the previous
amendments that were discussed I also have some backup material on those as well Mr Paulie it might be beneficial if you could I mean it's been some time since we met to discuss this can you remind us of the direction we gave I'm just going from memory I know we had discussion on auxiliary dwelling units
we had discussion on sidey yard pools and sheds I I think it might be helpful to bring back up what we've previously talked so we are consistent we don't start clearing a whole different Forest here very good sir thank you um if we
could go back to the slides please um you had mentioned Accel accessory dwelling units we did spend time speaking on Accessory dwelling units adus at the last uh at the previous um Council workshop on
LDC it was discussed at that time that uh adus are included within our City's comprehensive plan supported by Future land uh use categories R4 and
R9 um some of the um features that adus bring with them is Affordable multifamily uh multi generational family member housing both for uh elderly family me family members as well as young adults that are transitioning
maybe through the College Years um also uh onsite housing for caregivers um they do provide uh opportunities for affordable rentals um depending on how um the council uh feels
about different types of rentals that would also include our short-term rentals that um that we would want to take into consideration as far as that is concerned and finally uh there is a revenue stream there available to the property
owner specifically discussed um I'm sorry uh before I get into that I did mention to the City attorney there is a new update circulating with regards to some
legislation um addressing ldus and in just a moment I would like to defer to the City attorney because I did ask her to provide you an update on that new legislation it is it's pending at this point um I'm not sure exactly where it's at in the could we just go through all the previous things and then we'll go
through one at a time sure absolutely so ldus accessory structures that would include your sheds your pools your pool enclosures other uh structures um commercial vehicles and residential
driveways um we have discussed the an interest in micro breweries and forgive me I meant to include micro wineries in this category as well um for purposes of today's discussion uh we can maybe speak synonymously about um both types of
facilities um there was some discussion on signs um there's uh uh businesses in our community that often seek to install signs in excess of what
the code currently requires and some folks uh within the community have expressed interest in amending that portion of our code to allow for uh additional signage um I'm not sure if shed permit requirements were discussed at the last
one or not um that's one that I think has come up since the last one and then uh tree mitigation is in the works it's actually something that's currently in progress I know Mr Mueller I believe is behind me Mr Mueller has been working
closely with Mr Ferris on uh updating um some standards within the tree mitigation there's two or three areas in there that are more housekeeping type updates uh one would be um making sure that our approved list of trees conforms
to what the state now recommends and then there's some there's a void within a portion of that code that needs to be tightened up a little bit with regards to mitigation um I believe that's the sum and
substance of what was previously discussed why don't we Skip and be and skip over adus at the beginning and move through some of of the others adus is likely to be the most one of the more lengthy conversations
and perhaps it might be beneficial to go through some of these that aren't as I I mean we had previous discussions about accessory structures and side yards pools and sheds and stuff I I can't speak for Council yet but I I don't I just I'm not
sensing that there's been a lot of change in our thoughts on that since the last time commercial vehicles the same thing we had a lot of disc discussion about that and I don't imagine that's changed a whole lot um the signs and shed permits I
think we could probably go through all of these pretty quickly I think and then when we get to the adus there may be more robust discussion about that does that make sense to everybody yes that okay Gil okay where do you want to
start um accessory structures sheds pools and side yards backyards for for me it's shed permits right now permits I have a question about this so accessory dwelling units obviously I know that what that's describing accessory
structure how would that be different from a shed if it's not the dwelling okay so we have it listed twice I mean that that's that's all I'm asking to get started yeah the first comment there Wonder accessory structures is for your
sheds your pools your pool enclosures um location allowed with on the property and the second comment there that you see in the right column talks about permits so specifically for sheds if we can talk about that because I can tell
you what comes up at code with shed permits all right that's right lead that off and I'm not willing to change it I just so if someone want uh buys a pre-assembled shed from Ted sheds or something like that and it's under the
square footage that we allow I think it's what 100 square ft 150 sir 150 okay uh they can have a our company have it brought in and and put it put in and anchored down and they don't need a
permit okay if you buy the same shy Shed from Home Depot that you assemble yourself that's an assembled shed that's like building one from scratch that requires a permit and that's what's catching some people I know we do the permit
and then for that shed uh and correct me if I'm wrong when you buy it let's say from Home Dep I'm not just picking on Home Dep but you buy it and it probably comes with all the documentation that it when assembled correctly it meets all the wind loads and all that you take
that into Community Development you do have to get a permit for it correct and then they assemble it and is it inspected yes yes okay so it's much harder work to to get that shed I think that's very valid still in
that but just our residents don't know that so they go buy it they assemble it someone sees it then it gets red tagged and I don't know how to correct that but that seems to be coming up a lot in code so Mr B yeah so thank you Mr Mayor so what
council member Chambers his narrative is exactly what's happening um I can tell you from our perspective administration's perspective we would recommend that we get rid of that permit requirement and we just keep if it's 150 foot shed or smaller correct me if I'm
wrong then you don't need a per it is very confusing and it creates nothing but angst and I personally as the manager I don't really see a whole lot of benefit to this requirement um because it it again it's we we're sending a lot of this miscommunication
all the time about it um so I would prefer that if the council's amendable we just say across the board 150t or less doesn't matter if you assemble it on site or you bring it in from the outside you don't need a permit or if you build it yourself you design and build it
yourself my my research on this if you'll bear with me I'm going to advance the slide to Hillsboro County's requirement um the I'll go back to the previous slide in just a moment because that's Temple Terrace requirement um if we look specifically at Hillsboro County's
requirement all sheds um regardless of whether they are pre-assembled and delivered fully assembled whether they're a kit of a series of components or whether they're built from scratch up all sheds within
Hillsboro County 100 squ ft or less there is no permit required um now that does not mean that there's not standards that they have to meet that their code is uh is is flush with standards that still have to be uh adhered to um but
there's no permitting on the front side uh so there's no I mean there's standards but there's nobody checking to see if they met those standards not on the front side sir there's no inspection because there's no permit that's correct um and on the flip side of that same
coin once you exceed 150 square ft uh regardless of the construction the assembly or the pre- delivery pre-assembled um anything in excess of 150 ft does require uh a permit
regardless regardless it does not matter um so theirs is um it's it's a leaner and it's a leaner code in its content um they do not uh impose different regulation standards
with regards to uh pre-builts versus kit assembly versus scratch up construction what about Tampa I don't know if I have Tampa in here right now sir let me just double check no I don't do we
have you want to speak to it um let me just review this real quick we've um we've looked at in comparison we've we've leaned very heavily on hillsbor County um a microphone microphone I'm sorry well she's
researching we're going to play this game because there's only one microphone hookup over here um we've leaned heavily on Research through hillsbrook County um we've also looked at city of Tampa in some cases and again um Mrs Robinson is uh reviewing it right now and have we'll
have something for you here shortly but we've also looked at uh um Plant City in certain cases and we've looked across the bay uh We've looked at communities such as clear water um I think one of our uh one of our examples that we're
going to be able to discuss when we start talking about micro breweries was um the Golfport region in that community so we do have some other uh anecdotal references to discuss um but as far as
this one the only thing I included in the slides was Hillsboro and I think she's got it this is just accessory structures it doesn't specify this is just in reference to accessory structures and it doesn't specify sheds um
um so I'm not seeing a square footage requirement I I vaguely remember it sir I don't have the reference I'm I'm believing I didn't include the reference because it was somewhat more entailed and I think when we went through this we were looking to streamline
that but we can come back to it she's going to pull it up through their code now in the meantime if I might for ease for everybody from the legal department standpoint there should be permits for all sheds it does and it
should not matter whether you're putting it together yourself or if it's coming fully assembled the point is is to make sure that it is not placed within a setback because without getting a permit most people don't know where their shed is supposed to go they it way in the
back corner so it's ends up closer to the neighbor than it does to their house and so if they do get a permit they'll find out where they need to place the shed they'll also find out where how they need to attach the shed so that it doesn't become a
projectile um in a windstorm it should be many of them should be attached to a uh concrete pad and they'll find out that they need to have that instead of just plopping it down on the ground um so our recommendation is to avoid anyone
ending up in front of the code board with due to their shed that they should come in and get a permit so now we have city manager telling us one thing and the City attorney telling us something different so can I I I don't know if we trust generative AI or not but generative AI
tells me that City of Tampa is 120 feet or less exactly what we just so if it's 120 ft or less they don't require a permit I I I appre can I speak to the city attorney's thing not to disagree with the attorney I think we're just looking at it from different viewpoints here I'm looking at it from the from the
Viewpoint of the of the the experience that the customers have with us and we are trying our best our our goal has always been to streamline our our our process to make it easier for the customers and the disparity that we have
today where we say it's 150 or less you don't need a permit which is what is sort of forward- facing so that's coming and people say okay great and they they assemble it on site then they get brought to the code board because that's not correct you should have done it you know this other way that that is what we're trying to get at and and if you
look at again if you if this is correct city of Tampa's 120 or less they don't need a permit the county doesn't require a permit for 150 or less we would not be doing anything that far different from our neighboring communities and the issue that we have is that we're a small City in the region and the contractors
aren't just Temple Terrace contractors and businesses aren't Temple Terrace businesses so they all talk to each other they assume there's this assumption that you know more or less the regulations are similar and when they get here that trips people up also so we are trying now if the council wants us to obviously take a different
path which be more in line what the what the City attorney wants to do that's fine we will adjust where but that is not the direction we were trying to operate on they were trying to make things more streamlined okay I Council to you're I
mean I I will think it's significant to point out that we just went through two hurricanes and I don't I mean I've heard about trees and roofs and you name it and I don't think we've had a single case of somebody call me and said my
neighbor shed blew into my house I mean it might have happened but I I don't think sheds have come up at all and we just got the worst hurricane Temple Terrace has probably ever had in a you know generation so go ahead anecdotally uh my daughter is try
is putting a shed in she went to a place and they said well where do you live Temple Terrace and The Collector was ug okay well that's what we're trying to fix exactly what I'm saying you know we need you know we need to be sensitive sensitive to the the the the
uh uh the Windstorm issues and um but uh you know we're trying to make it a little bit easier to to to do business within the city I think as least as far as this this issue is concerned um I kind of like the streamlined effect impact or the streamlined effect of the
of the county 150 less good 150 more you need it irrespective of what the source and the the the construction um and I I kind of like keep it simple I agree I think
consistency where we can and where it makes sense to be consistent with neighboring jurisdictions makes more sense than making ours more complicated and so I'm I'm in agreement with being consistent
with the Hillsboro County regulation yeah same for me obviously comes up a lot of code but I also agree with Miss shonne that uh we we need to have some really strong guidelines and how I know
it's on the website now uh what what to do but maybe handouts or whatever when someone calls in and says I want to put a shed what do I do to make sure that the setbacks are because that's the other issue that shows up at code a lot is that sheds are at the fence line well and that's that's one of the other
bullets Rel but the but the uh streamline the permit process uh for sheds I'm all for it that yeah I I Mr shon's point is valid by eliminating permits there's almost
certainly going to be an increase in sheds that are placed in the wrong place mhm but but you know I I mean the rest of the world seems to be functioning okay mhm without that um I I agree with with you
that we should streamline this that was the whole point in this to begin with so I mean you could apply this argument to everything you have a permit to wash your car to make sure you're doing an on alwn instead of you know I mean where do you draw the line on that so the if I the information regarding setbacks and
so forth how readily available is that to to the to you know the average individual I want to put a shed in if I can answer some of that if you uh go to the website and U click on sheds or do a
word search for sheds or something it comes up you all your setbacks and everything what's required it is on our website it's on the website that's to and it's it's it's its own bullet point I think if if I may add to that uh council member Chambers um
there's been some other events recently that have uh sparked additional conversation between Mr Baya and myself uh regarding um building up those quick reference
resources that you alluded to so that is something that we are certainly working on I believe you also Ser Mr schisler mentioned or or at least have in the past mentioned um I don't like using the word cheat sheet because it's not really really cheating but it's an informational page um of something that
is quick easy to understand and readily available through not only our website but also available to our team downstairs when people walk in a lot of times people will just walk in and ask questions because they know they want to do XYZ um but they want to make sure
they're doing XYZ according to what the code allows um so we that is a project that um in fact next week next week it's on the work schedule for someone uh very near and dear to me right now to start working on so um you will absolutely see
that project coming forward also and um this topic of conversation will be certainly included in that project okay so it sounds to me like we have consensus on yes I have some generic things that I'd like to ask about before
we get very detailed on the specific land deel velopment can we do that so can is it such are we able to close the door on this side yes yes and then I'll go to you and okay you had something no
I'm I'm good okay so we're going to close the door on this and then we'll go to you because you wanted to introduce some other things so yes okay we have consensus on the shed things we'd like to be consistent with hillsbor County and I think that would make life easier
for our residents for shed contractors for for our code enforcement staff for our building inspect I mean it's going to make life easier for people um and then the code board and you everybody can direct their energies to something that might be more beneficial to the
city as opposed to shed complaints so one one person or with the with the increased if you will may not be the right word but the visibility of the requirements you the cheat sheet uh we
we make a concerted effort to to putting that information out for the public so that it's right there it's it's easy to find sometimes our website can be a little cumbersome and if the easier it is to to for the for the citizen redefined it the better off will be in
the long run yes sir and and that's a great Point um along those same lines um staff met with our new marketing director earlier this week to address that exact perfect uh that exact good concern okay
council member Fernandez okay so I have two item I have three items but two that are basically the the overwriting and one is consistency within the city within the city staff and then
consistency with area jurisdictions so one of the things that I hear often is that when people come in to do a project and they are trying to go through the the permit process they hear
something different from whichever staff member they talk to then they come back and they hear a different uh answer from a different staff person and this this does go along the lines and I think you're starting to
address this with with creating the the sheets for very uh common projects but I just want to make sure that when we are putting together our Our Land Development and our
permitting guidelines and and all of that that we're keeping in mind how we're going to create the documentation so that staff gives people the same answer no matter which staff person it is and also
that maybe there's a place on the website that is a button that says want to build something and when you click on it it gives you a list of the most common projects and then that sheet might come up which I I guess I
would call Cliff Notes versus she sheet that's one and then the second is consistency with area jurisdictions and I'm not saying that Temple terce should be the same as every jurisdiction but the other comment I get very
commonly is that Temple tece is impossible to do business with and when you ask when you know when I call staff and I say okay we're requiring this they the contractor says hillsb Carney never does this Tampa never does this but you find
out that those jurisdictions do require something similar but maybe it's not as well enforced um it would just be nice to also be able to reference that easily
when somebody is coming in to say well did you know my contractor said this jurisdiction doesn't require anything why are we so difficult we might be able to say well in fact they do require this I don't know why that contractor might think they don't you know just something
to make us a little less what I just want to do something that helps alleviate people thinking that we're so burdensome when we're not necessarily burdensome but also try to clean up like what we're about today okay so I put those two
things on the agenda like new business but I think we should dispose of the carryover old business before we embark on new stuff but I did put them I wrote those two things down I'll come back to you for that discussion but um let's dispose of
the carryover stuff so we don't run out of time and then they're like well we didn't even get the direction we needed on them so but uh i' made notes there and I we'll come back to you okay okay all right so since we just talked about sheds and the permits of sheds it might
be best to go into now the accessories structures to talk about where sheds could go the pools and where they could go that kind of that makes sense to go right to that absolutely sir I do have here thank you very much Mary um I have one slide um this will probably look
somewhat familiar although I have added um a bit of color to the image and um I've tried to uh clearly Define um the side yards versus the rear yards as you may recall there was
confusion in past interpretations based on the side yard and even the corner yard um for purposes of today's discussion um Corner yards are kind of their own little creature because they're
actually technically could be considered fronting the other roadway so we there's going to be set packs that we have to look at for for Corner yards that might be a bit different than some of the other setbacks um with regard to the
current definition that was recently updated you see now the the rear yard is clearly defined as a side to side full use space of course minus required setbacks um for the placement of sheds
accessory structures swimming pools pool enclosures things of that nature um so from a staff position we would simply like to engage Council on discussion as to do are you in support
of the current standard to allow for these structures to be placed only within the rear yard pending of course a variance um or are you of the mindset that you would like to discuss sidey
yards pending a variance of what um if we have had situations where people have uh petitioned the board of adjustment for a variance to allow swimming pools in a sidey yard um to allow other structures to be placed in a side yard
okay but in the rear yard and rear yard no such okay yeah I'm sorry I may have I may have misled you on that um I'm referring the variance of course addresses a side yard yes city manager so I I think one thing and this is a
great SL thank you Mr ply uh but I think the issues we have sometimes when it comes up with pools for example in sidey yards if you look at this at this illustration you would think why would I ever why would you need to and this is not a good illustration for that it's usually when people have this Odd Lot where the rear yard is constrained and
maybe very narrow for example but the side yard could be this could be in fact wider than the rear yard those are times when we see people ask for that now that the argument could be made then okay they can get relief from the board of adjustment because it's some a hardship on the lot see I'm not sure if you in
this discussion you want to consider and we haven't talked about this but maybe some sort of a ratio in terms of the width of the side yard relative the reard if it if it triggers that maybe that's when it's allowed just an idea uh I just don't want this slide to be sort of misleading in terms of the discussion
that it seems to me like last year when we had this discussion that's what we were talked about was if there's a certain amount of feet on the sidey yard or if there's a certain if that there's I really don't like the idea of relying on the board of adjustment because the legal threshold
there is a you know you have a hardship but you can't create your own hardship and they can say well you built your house in the wrong place if you'd have built it here you would would you know so I don't that's a little unfair to put that burden on citizens of the board of adjustment I mean if we want to
if that's our intent we should probably address it in code um but yeah I was thinking last year in our discussion that that's exactly what we did we talked about if certain circumstances exist you could have a
pool or an enclosure and I think we had a home if I remember right there was a home that we had used as an example where they had a I don't if there was a swimming pool or in theground hot tub or and a enclosure around it that went off the side of the house instead of the
backyard and it I think that was used as an example of there's no reason this couldn't be you know why is this got to be a violation this looks fine but it would have to be a certain distance from the property line so that
it's not right next to the neighbor's bedroom you know is the same criteria in the backyard has to be certain yeah yeah certain exactly so question of staff is there a requirement for Access through the sidey yards there has to be so many clear feet
yeah yes there is I believe is it where'd he go there he is is it 3et 5T watert from the structure 3et you have to have at least
5 okay okay so if we uh can you repeat that in the microphone yes um the sum of substance is the 5 foot is that safe number for Clear pass message around the sides okay so we could do something that
includes sidey yards with the back rear yard uh uh pursuant to all the setback guidelines and those those guidelines we could do something like that if that's the council's wish yeah I mean but I mean we we could do something like that
so all the setbacks are already in place and the the rules about you wouldn't want to a pool so you somebody accessing the backyard has to tread water to get all the way to the back so no exactly and if if you would like for us to uh carry away from this
meeting um research with regards to I think you mentioned percentages or ratios um to accommodate uh sufficient property to house these different accessory structures we can certainly dig deeper into I'm not sure if a ratio
would work though because I I mean you'd have to play with that I don't want to get that deep here but it could be that the reason they want to do the sidey yard is because the something in the backyard precludes them from using that and so you're I don't know if a ratio would work or if it
would be better to just do a certain distance or whatever but I think it's important that we maintain like Dallas was saying though that clear access around and I'm thinking of things like firefighting you need to get be able to
get around to the back of the structure clearly um mhm law law enforcement there's times when you would any emergency you would need to be able to get back there so we wouldn't want that being so I think part of the guidance would be don't encroach on
that so uh 5 foot the dotted line I'm sorry is the five foot the dotted line huh is the 5 foot the dotted line over here actual property line that's the actual property okay that's fine I want make sure we no for this diagram the 5 foot's not not represented no I understand that but I mean it would be
the actual property line not the not the building it not the building itself well a setback is from the property line um I'm talk access requirements would not necessarily have a hard line it would just provide for an
open space of 5et or greater between the end of the structure and the property line okay that's fine okay so uh an example so if I wanted to put a shed in my side yard I would need 5 ft from the wall of the shed to the fence line or the property
line that's our minimum setb if it's a small sh let's say 10 by 10 and then 5T from the uh front yard setback there would not be a front yard set so I okay I could put it right to
that okay but then how much between the shed in the house five feet or three feet three feet three feet between Okay so it's okay I'm seeing a nod yes and a nod no back behind you but that's okay can you come up to the microphone yeah I'm sorry I'm just trying to get an
example so I would need a 20 foot wide sidey yard to be able to do what I want to do I'm Le call speaking a planner for Community Development that microphone on oh is there yes yes it's on cool from Principal structure to accessory structure is a three-foot setback so in
between a shed or um a pool yeah yeah if you're going to have detached if it's a detached accessory structure there's a 3ot minimum from Principal to accessory and then you have um the 5 foot minimum as we spoke for accessory structures from
property line to accessory structure okay so if I wanted to do that I'd have to have an 18 foot wide sidey yard just checking you'd have to have at least 5 feet for the property line of structure and then 3 feet from the
structure to principal yeah so we could do something very easy on if we wanted to pursue the sidey yard it would have to meet all those setbacks and then of course then that throws in the how many square feet of property of impervious surface and all those requirements are
already here so Malik before you step down can you say you give your name and title on the record so we can Preserve the record yes sir Malik Hall planner for Community Development thank you okay so the only thing to keep in mind that word that works for sheds but
we're going to have to let them work their magic because Pools and Hot Tubs and patios where you've got a group of people out there that might not be enough distance but to the neighbor sure but right and I guess what they need from us is a desire to uh allow stuff in
the sidey yard otherwise we're good with with the appropriate setbacks that would be different in my mind anyway a shed's one thing a screen patio with a pool and you know then you know a potential Gathering Spot where you've got a little bar there and I mean that's a little
different if your neighbor's bedroom's right there so 5T from that to the fence might not be enough no I mean if you have a pool enclosure that's uh 10 ft high that throws a different set back in from the side yard I'm sorry I know well
no I just I want to say that I am in agreement with with creating this because um Temple you know we're not a cookie cutter Community we have our our lots are so many different shapes and sizes and to send somebody to the
variance board when in a lot of cases it's not even how they're they may be buying a house that was built in the 60s um it's not even that it could have been built on a on the lot differently it's just the lot is so uniquely shaped so I
don't want to create a situation where 50% of our households have to go before a variance board in order to use their property the way they would like so I am completely in agreement with
creating a set of specifications that would allow somebody to use what we would traditionally consider a side yard but and for these purposes might work um with the parameters that also maintain a
quality neighborhood mhm so that's it yes I'm just wondering is this going to be a like an administrative approval for a sidey pool so that somebody doesn't have to go to the board of adjustment if they do have an
odd-shaped lot or you simply removing all of the requirements and so even if someone has plenty of room in the backyard for a pool they're going to be able to come in and just put their pool in the sidey because they want to so we
need to make it clear are we removing the sidey limitation or are we just basically giving administrative approval for side yard pool if it meets the no I think our intent is to allow for the use of sidey yards
under certain conditions not just taking everything off of but under certain conditions they can do things in the sidey yard without having to go to the boa correct I I'm not intending to say you you're on a a larger piece of
property and you have plenty of rear yard but you'd prefer aesthetically to have your house your pool in the sidey yard I'm thinking of the sidey yard as a a last resort per se that there is no appropriate space in the backyard but
your sidey yard extends 40 ft so we're basically leaving it the same but instead of having to go to the boa to get approval you can get administrative approval well we're not leaving it the same though because we want to codify in the code what the some of those
circumstances would be so it's not just the community development director going yeah okay you know for them we do it I mean we want to codify some of these things that would enable you to use the
sidey we don't want to just leave it open for you know Wild Wild West here you can do whatever you want a side yard but so we are doing a we I'm not sure I'm understanding your question the setbacks would have still applied even if they went to the boa so
that's always been there we have not you know they would have had to have asked for that as well to avoid the setback requirement which it's usually a safety feat Factor here um with regard to being
able to get around a pool so um that's all it's already there so I'm just not wanting us to change things that we don't need to change it seems like it's more the process that we're wanting to eliminate here of going to
the board of adjustment to ask for this instead of getting it approved administratively yeah I don't agree that the I I don't agree with what you're saying because in order to get a variant from the board of adjustment you have to demonstrate a hardship that you didn't
create and so what we're doing here is that you don't have that burden to prove that you have some particular hardship you have to meet certain requirements and have enough space and have certain conditions the odd shaped lot is a hardship it's a hardship that runs with
the land so the boa would consider that so that that's not the issue what's what as I'm listening to you talking the only thing that's changing here is that they're not having to go to the boa because if I don't agree with that statement yeah I think what we're doing
is we're expanding the limitations on the side of the the back property so they can come around to the side I can I can think of three houses right off top of my head where they had to go to the board of adjustment because it's limited to the rear the rear yard and they
encroach us into the sidey yard and they had to go to the board of adjustment so in fact some had to go twice because nobody people weren't the the petitioner didn't understand what they were trying to do themselves so I think we're we're expanding the definition of the backyard
and the side yard to include more options but I think it in one way it is more administrative but it's not you you don't have final say there's still going to be Searcher sitting situations where you going have to go to the board of adjustment to to make it
happen and and now since you're allowing pools in a sidey yard are you also going to be allowing pool Screen Enclosures in a sidey yard because many cities even if you go to the boa and they Grant a pool in the sidey yard it's almost always with the condition that they do not ever
come back to ask for a pool screen enclosure because that just exacerbates the problem because a pool is flat but the screen enclosure often times is bigger than the house so is that going to be allowed too
my my line go ahead I was just going to ask a question have you research this issue with other jurisdictions what is that do they allow stuff like this some do oh some do some have the same uh same
tight restrictions that we currently have there's there's not there's not a a set standard um Hillsboro County for example has a lot more uh flexibility uh with regards to what they allow with inside yards uh Municipal organizations
generally tighten up the strings a little bit okay I I was just curious on how they handle that administratively also so uh all setbacks all standards still
apply right but they they have no requirement of um in the I mean it's just done administratively it's not done before Board of adjustment it's my understanding yes you are correct on that okay thank you just asking Council
M Fernandez um my intention is to help people navigate is help people with uniquely shaped Lots navigate the process of Home Improvements which could
include adding a pool with an easier time than going to going before the board of adjustments that uh you know that still comes down to a a
group deciding yes or no on the project and even allowing administrative approval still is this is a similar I mean my thought
is if the space is there and it meets all of the required setback param including having a screened enclosure and requiring more space or if we were
to establish farther setback or other criteria that's what I'm looking at there are multiple Lots in this city that have maybe you know 16 ft in their backyard
but on either side of their house have 30 or 40 ft and I don't want to make something so arbitrary when we know that we have a variety of lot
shapes that's I I don't want where we're approving something that's going to encroach on a neighbor but keep in mind if you're in a in a neighborhood I'm going to use my neighborhood in crestover as a child okay extremely
narrow back Lots my father had to design a pool shape that would that could meet all the criteria but it was very close it was right on the setback line to the neighbors lot their yard was just as
narrow in the back and their pool they were a lot of the same shaped pools um we just so we were just as close as if if the houses had been on side yards so I mean the the but the par
existed and you you built to meet those parameters I'm just thinking that we can create a set of parameters that make it possible for someone to use a sidey yard when their backyard is not
feasible so I think let me see if we have consensus because I think we do but I don't think we're at a point where we can make decision we have a lot of questions and not as not enough answ answers I think what I'm hearing is that the council still has a
desire to explore easing the restrictions on the use of side yards for various things pool sheds I don't know if Screen Enclosures would be part of that or not that's one of the questions what I think is appropriate
here is for us to tell you at this point yes this is something we would like you to look at because we think this is an area that we could make things e easier for our residents they could make more full use of their property but I think this is an area
where maybe the comparators that you use might be different than Hillsboro County because I think in this area we might be looking at pure cities that are cities that we either are very similar to or would like to be similar cities that are
kind of upscale casual like Temple Terrace so you know what's Mount Dora do you you know that's a that's a city that's very vibrant Den denen is another well you know good well-run City that's been developed um similar history you know
similar density so some comparator cities that are successful well thought of doing well you know they're they're not cities that we wouldn't really identify with and what do they do with
this and I'm not always a fan of emulating what other cities are doing because I'm not sure that a lot of cities are really doing all that well sometimes but this might be an area that we look at that and and um I think what
I'm hearing I think is that we're open to this idea the real question comes down to what would the criteria be and what would the allowable uses be I'm hearing that we don't want anything that's going to reduce the current setbacks or the five foot e you know
those kinds of things we wouldn't want to do that um and I know there's things that we haven't even discussed here because I've heard Miranda talk about you know the 60% coverage in the impervious you know there's other stuff that we haven't even contemplated
so um as and I think probably it would be a good idea to come back in a workshop setting to have a f the next discussion instead of here's the ordinance and then we go off the rails and have 2-hour discussion at a city council meeting about that's not the way to do it let's
have it here where we can flesh it out does that make sense I I would agree uh to to with with emphasis on the fact that we have so many weird shaped properties I mean if we were straight streets and avenues and stuff for but we
curve and we go backwards and we go sideways and and there's you know you could you go south of Bullard and you you end up doing circles and and you how the hell I get here type excuse me um you you you've got weird shaped properties that you can't you obviously can't do anything with piece with with
part of with with half of it and there's a lot of a lot that's relative there's there's properties out there that have already been this has already happened with and it's like well how come I can't do that they did it that type of thing and it's and it ends up being the same
type of layout so it's you know you can't cover all of the options you can't hope to cover everything but at least you know more mix of it administrative yes you can do that because you you're you're wider on the sides and you are
depth in the back I have a good back good size backyard but my parents had a wi and they lived on herel wider sidey yards where they if they done anything they would have had to go into the sidey yard type thing well I think we are we consistent with that guidance is that
most definitely just for one thing for clarity uh I know the council member Fernandez had had kind of alluded to some sort of criteria where in cases where they couldn't do things in their rear yard potentially they might go to the sidey yard if that that's a little complicated
just so I just want to make sure you all are on the same page with our staff before we start doing this because we could always make the argument well you can build a a lap pool in your backyard cuz you've had narrow backyard um so it it gets to be really arbitrary
potentially so I is that what you want us to do because that will take a little bit more thought I think I think it would be a mistake for us to provide too much detail in what we want let's let them go out there see what's out there what triggers this I in my mind I don't
think this should be totally relying on you have a weird shaped lot I think our goal here is to enable everybody to make better use of there if you have a weird shaped lot there's probably already an Avenue for you to get a variant but I think correct me if I'm wrong I
think it would be a mistake for us to give you that like okay this we only intend for this if their backyard is somehow precluded from you know I I let's wait and see what more open-ended than yeah yeah I I think so unless you disagree no I I want I have a big
backyard and I want to leave it open for me to play Frisbee so I want it moved in the back I mean yeah maybe my dog get back there I don't know but to us to me it's clear we want them to explore something look look at it yes that good
and we come back in a workshop setting for round two of this I think that's the critical part come back in a workshop seter yeah right mhm okay we're good yes okay so that's accessory structures
um commercial vehicles I don't know I hate to even open this part of the please help us out um yes sir uh many of us on staff feel the exact same sentiment that you've
just uh expressed um but in opening this particular discussion I would simply like to uh bounce back to some of the previous discussions um and this was
primarily from last year's LDC uh Workshop there was concern um brought forward from Council with regards to uh actually I believe it was relayed through a council member uh from our citizenry
with regards to advertising on the vehicles and that's something that we do have to consider within our code whether or not um wrapped vehicles that display business names and things of that nature
I know some people will look at that and they think well it's just a passenger van or it's just a a passenger sedan um and and not interpret that as a commercial vehicle other people will look at that and say wait a minute that's clearly a commercial vehicle
they're it's a business sedan they're advertising for the business or SUV etc etc so as we as we kind of unwrap this a little bit that's one of the things that uh that staff hopes to get a little more clarification on from council's position
uh the next item that was discussed previously was a Prohibition on the workstyle utility beds on the back of trucks um we're talking about the diamond plate flatbeds or in some cases the fully built out toolbox uh
assemblies on the back of what would otherwise be um a light or medium duty pickup truck and um the last one was uh a discussion that occurred last year with Council uh about adhering to the
vehicle load capacity of one ton or more constituting a commercial vehicle now I will tell you um you are not the only elected body that struggles with this there is not a unified definition across any of our
local jurisdictions as to what truly constitutes a commercial vehicle um I'll just throw some of the examples out there um some communities regulate strictly by vehicle gross vehicle weight weight class rating
it's an easy metric it's established by the federal government and if people adhere to gross vehicle weight rating that's a simple thing to say okay this is or this is not a commercial vehicle others actually look at the physical
size the length height and width of a vehicle um very very difficult to you know take action upon something unless Tom and his team are out there with a little measuring tape so you can imagine how difficult that might be um
others look at what are I I I will call them old school informal classifications and um you'll know what I mean as soon as I open this up when I talk about um a half ton pickup versus a 3/4 ton pickup versus a full ton pickup these are old
school classifications that no longer compare to modern-day vehicles um anybody who's purchased a modern day vehicle uh modern day pickup truck in today's world will clearly tell you that a half ton pickup truck has a cargo capacity much greater
than a half ton um so again these are old school old uh classifications um the other one that has been discussed is manufactured designations such as 150 250 350
commonly known as in the Ford uh line of trucks um General Motors uh GMC Chevrolet Ram uh Dodge Rams they use the 1500 the 2500 the 3500 series now you'll
notice that the first three digits correspond with the same um manufacturer classifications that Ford uses again these are not regulated by federal government the federal government is clear with regards to how they classify um and when I say federal
government I can draw that all the way down to State Department of Transportation um they work on Gross Vehicle rate rating and that's where that falls so things to consider as we venture into this what do you like what don't you like what do you want to see
parked in your neighbor's driveway all night um what's appropriate um there's also been some some concerns or questions about someone who drives maybe a handyman who drives um a pickup truck that would normally be considered a
light duty pickup truck that you or I might drive but now they've added some accessory structure or accessory equipment to the back end of that vehicle making it more of a work style truck so these are some of the these are some of the concerns and questions that
um we have uh identified um our current definition under 1240 under commercial vehicles talks about um self-propelled or towed vehicle we're talking about uh Vans trucks and trailers uh used in Commerce
to transport passengers other than the driver Andor cargo here is Hillsboro County it's a little bit more involved um but it has a very straightforward approach any vehicle when motorized or not utilized for commercial purposes or designed by
the manufactur uh to be used primarily for commercial purposes or altered or converted for the purpose of being used but not including Vehicles having a capacity of one ton or less and of course not being a
traditional domestic vehicle and you'll see Tampa has a very short definition probably the shortest of all of the ones that I researched and I know it's small print I apologize for the small print but I did want to
throw this up on the screen just so you can see what some of those federally regulated class Vehicles look like you can see there that a class one vehicle is 6,000 lbs gross vehicle weight rated those of
your smaller that's your Ford Rangers um some of your Toyota pickups your smaller lighter weight lighter Beauty pickup trucks and then we get into the class two pickup trucks these are more commonly referred to as your full size um that's where you start to see your
1500 series or your 150 series some 250 series will also fit in this category you see the 2500s and the 250s and then you get into a class three I think most of us in the room could easily look at a class 3 pickup truck and identify it as
a commercial vehicle it's much heavier much beefier much more uh much more of stature with as far as the vehicle is concerned and then of course this category I I didn't include all of them it goes all the way up to I think 18 um
all the way up to the big super super tractor trailers and things of that nature but um this is some of the examples of those light trucks those medium trucks and getting into the heavy duty trucks so
with that in mind um I just have a couple of images here to throw up on the screen the one on the right um I think has been discussed in the past it's it's a it's a cab in chassis that has been outfitted with a flat bed some people
refer to these as diamond plate beds some people refer to these as uh working beds um different marketing names for different different manufacturers on these aftermarket add-ons um some people will look at that and say no that's not
commercial some people will want to know how it's registered what its weight classification is um what its measurements are what its payload uh capacity is these are all different variables that different communities um I'll be honest with you um this was
probably the the broadest base of references from one extreme to the other that I research coming into today uh the picture on the left upper left that's actually a a picture in our community today that's a real picture
from our Code Department um there are people now I would look at that and I would I would argue that that is absolutely a commercial vehicle it appears to be uh regardless of uh the the the chassis construction and the chassis weight rating um it appears to
be fully outfitted for some type of commercial uh commercial work um but there are some people that would argue that that is not a commercial vehicle because maybe it doesn't tip the scale on um what those gross vehicle weight
rating numbers look like so again this is this is a tremendously difficult Target to pin down but hopefully after some discussion staff will have a better idea of which way you'd like us to proceed go back to please the class
Slide the different classes sure thank you may I have a question a question uh you mentioned this is a headache for you guys uh do you have a recommendation you have to come up okay
and identify yourself for the record please I mean I'd like to try to help you know and our goal council member Fernandez is correct we want to try to make it easier for our citizens and our staff to enforce these things so yes good morning morning uh Tom Bron Co
compliance thank you Greg that was a very great uh explanation what we have difficults that we have today um my recommendation would be what we do now is I get challenged quite a bit from homeowners and uh owners of vehicles and
what we recommend is they show us the registration to the vehicle or the insurance card that'll clearly State whether it's commercial or not um that's one way that's one of the tools that we will I
approach you know u a vehicle owner as far as the vehicle itself a lot of the vehicles that was seen they're being modified so they can get a F250 but they modified they take the bed of the truck off and now they have a flat bed or
toolbox up on the side or tool bins on the side so um again those are very hard to police um again my staff doesn't go over to a vehicle that's stored in the driveway and start measuring the width and the length of the vehicle we just
don't do that that's actually trespassing so we don't do that so um so it's really I don't again this is a very difficult um violation to enforce but
again what I the the end is I go to the property and knock on the door and I say I need to see your uh insurance insurance card yeah but there's really you know I'm looking more for a recommendation from okay Mr could you
bring back put up the slide that has our code on it our current code this Serv just the definition it is not the regulat regulation um the regulation basically is um commercial vehic vehicles are not permitted in residential Z for overnight parking
there there's conditions in there that allow them if they're doing on-site service work and things of that nature um loading unloading yeah um that's about it okay this city manager if if I could
could Mr ply could you could you put the Hillsboro County reg definition up I was looking at this initially and it struck me as this is not a bad definition I agree sir I think this is probably the best definition I've seen today I I don't know what the council thinks of it
but this one and Tom if you want to give us your input Mr but this one seems to be pretty clearcut for most instances that looks s that looks pretty good yes council member Fernandez so when I
read our definition it it sounds like an Uber or a lift somebody who drives Uber oryt could be included and those just look like regular vehicles um but I also happen to know people who have very large pickup
trucks and they're registered to their business they're not identified necessarily as a a business truck but their their insurance is paid through their business they have very large trucks because they tow a very large boat so it's not I
mean that's that's their vehicle that they drive to and from work or whatever but it's their it's technically their personal vehicle but they have their own company so their company pays for I mean I I have a very hard time telling someone that they couldn't
have their personal vehicle in in their yard or in their driveway um so I guess I'm I mean it's some commercial vehicles is obvious it's very obvious if they're a a plumbing truck
and they've got all the accoutrements for that or they're fully wrapped with their business I can see that I I I don't I'm not really sure what to tell you about
what I would consider a maybe a higher a a heavier duty pickup truck but one that they want the heavier duty pickup truck CU they need to tow their larger boat but that that would be construed as a commercial vehicle because their insurance is also registered through
their company so the vehicle you're describing I could my staff and I we don't we don't mess with those vehicles uh the ones that are concerning are the ones that have the bins on the side the back of the truck uh like I said the toolbox or
the air compressor in the back of the truck those are the ones that are there's it's a gray area you know so I just need some guidance from Council how you want us to move forward with those but the way you're describing we don't we don't mess with those
Vehicles council member schisler we have employees that we require them they on call to to take the vehicles right okay how would you now obviously if you need a a step ladder to climb up into it you're you're
you're pushing the limit on on the type of vehicle it is but I mean if we had an employee that's required by their job to take the vehicle home because they're on call and they've got to go out you know one of our our uh larger our larger
trucks that works for the water department um we don't want to create times of change we don't want to create situations that that now they're in they're in violation of the code you know we used to be a bedroom community to USF and to to to to the
local areas where you know you didn't have pickup trucks and you didn't have these type of vehicles but times have changed and we have to be cognizant of of that issue wrapped vehicles I think is is the hardest in in my mind um if
you my wife would kill me if I came home in a w vehicle but but but but there's are people who that me that's that's a significant source of advertising the company pays for the vehicle and and and all that we have to be careful we don't
become too Draconian with it but um in other words we I I'm saying it's it's a tough one you we we recognize the the the hardships that it creates upon you guys but we have to be aware of what's happening in in today's economy
in the future and so forth so um uh there's a lot of discretion that we do use yeah but that's not good yeah that's not shouldn't be up to the well that's what happens you guys making your own you know that's not a good spot for you to be in right we have a gentleman that
has a Verizon truck over on um over here on by white way and uh he used to parking in the driveway so what we say he just parks there overnight but we tell him to park it in the street area so it's not on private property but it's in the city he's allowed to park it on
the street as long as the vehicle's moved within 24 hours so that's what we that's so we so we have them park on the street to hinder traffic just so he's not in the driveway that's what I was you allowed to park in the street for 24
hours yeah I know yeah yeah let me make a suggestion to start some maybe some discussion about how to solve this instead of just better Define it so I agree with Mr Bea that this this
definition looks very good the hillsbury county definition and it also says that the second but it describes what a commercial vehicle is and then it says but not including Vehicles having one ton or less so anything less than a one
ton pickup or anything that's one ton F350s and Below right are good so if you'd go back to the slide where it says the classes there we go
so this as Mr schisler pointed out correctly in my mind times do change okay Trends change we're not you know the only city on the planet of Mars right we're we're
in a larger context the region the state the trends that what's going on with affordable housing and work Trends and commuting Trends and so we you can sit down if you want but um we go to all kinds of Economic
Development I mean we go a couple times a year we go to these St talk about commute times and what the the trends are there's a Breaking Point with that by the way like 45 minutes is kind of the breaking point where it starts to break down people are no longer willing to live and drive any further than that
to their job commute times have been climbing in this region for a long time anyway I say all that to say this if we're not car ful we'll this will be the next state preemption right if we if we start going crazy with this and affecting people's
ability to live close enough to their jobs this will be seen as an economic hindrance and we'll have a state preemption that says cities can't do this right if we're not careful so how about this how about we adopt the definition that Hillsburgh county has or
something very close to that and then in the Down Below in the ordinance where we talk about the actual prohibited things that you can and can't do right we take out all the stuff about anything less than a class four class three and below
are allowed right class three and below are allowed we we stay out of the business of if you're driving if you know if you work for integrity and you've got a van that you're required to take home because you're on call or you work for the city and you have your take home
truck because you're working utilities and you're on call if it's an F350 one ton or less it's just a car I mean it it you know and I know that there will be people that say oh my gosh you know I'm going to have nextdoor neighbor you know
he's going to have a utility bed F250 in the driveway yeah he might we don't you know you don't live in Avala this is a city it's not a gated community and we're not you know this is not an HOA part of the back when I was on code
board part of the problem wasn't necessarily the presence of a commercial vehicle it was the presence of multiple commercial vehicles so our code could simply say that we prohibit anything class 4 and above that's used for
commercial purposes so if you're one of these guys and you've got a you know an F550 just cuz it's the cool thing to do but it's not commercial right it's not commercial if it's an class or above and it's used for commercial purposes it's
prohibited that's easy for you that's I mean it says it on the side of the truck you can you can check the registration or get the police to run the tag and see what the gross vehicle weight is you don't I mean you can do that from the driveway you don't have to get out you don't have to that's as simple it's
either this or it's that there's the weight right there and if you have um any anything that is allowed class three or below that's allowed you can only have one of those per property so like
the welding business that happened at the house years ago when I was on code board there wasn't the pro the truck wasn't really the problem the problem was he had six of them M and so it looked like an industrial yard in his Drive remember that case and
so no this one was I can't remember where it was but it looked I mean it was flatbed trucks with welders on the back and it wasn't like one of those would have been okay but six of them it looks like it belongs in the 301 industrial
park and so anything class three and Below you can have but you can only have one per property unless it's own commercial or what you know you figure that part out but you got one and you can't have anything class four and
above that's my take you got two two things that are prohibited you write that ordinance in an hour just yes I think what you're so if there's more than one you're assuming that it's labeled commercial right CU if somebody has like an F class three
below but they have they have two but one could be just a F250 pickup truck you're okay with the second one be yeah yeah yeah it's commercial it's commercial it's clearly commercial we can yeah so I mean if you're a plumber or you work for integrity you can have your van at home we don't need to be interfering with people's ability to
have a job and and but you and your wife can't both bring your integrity Vans home right you got to you know one are we eliminating any mention about signage because if you've got a wrapped vehicle that's basically a rolling
billboard is that going to be okay now I mean that's up to the council but in my mind yes you have to let it go this I know in St Pete it used to be no signs on a vehicle if it's like if you wanted a sign let it be a magnetic sign so you could take it off when you come
home they then changed that so that they allow 50% of the vehicle to have commercial writing on it but that's that's that's one of those in my mind anyway I'm not speaking for counsel but that's one of those trends that change I mean years ago we didn't have the
ability to do a wrap didn't have W that didn't exist and now it does I mean I for one of my clients is a bath and kitchen or well Plumbing and Electric technicians and the Vans are
100% wrapped MH and they are required to be on call periodically and if they can't take their van home they have to come they get a call they have to come to the office get the van drive to the call um but there are technicians I
think there's we have one who we might not he might even not be there anymore but uh who wasn't allowed to take his van home I mean everybody else could take their van home but I there aren't I don't I can't even Envision a work van of that nature
that's not 100% wrapped I can't even Envision one that would be 50% wrapped I don't I I personally don't have a problem with one vehicle of a commercial nature at in somebody's yard based on the criteria
that the mayor described I mean we are a city and we have housing for a variety of of income levels and professions and I I just think
that it's not an issue to me and I have not had a high number of people in the city come and complain about that particular item I haven't either but just one point of clarification when you're talking about the size of the truck I drive an
F-150 okay would that automatically put that into the commercial realm because if if because huh blow no go back to okay so you're just so it go back to Hillsboro County's definition you can see that it would not be so it would just it would it wouldn't matter at all
as long as it wasn't any kind of would not be see used for commercial purposes okay that's cool then all right good you can still then have another vehicle Mr mu we can leave this up I mean got Iden ify yourself for the rec Ernest Mueller with the legal department I agree this is a great definition and I might be
stating the obvious but I don't want it to go unthought about which is at the very end or meeting the definition of domestic vehicle remember that's going to be the Hillsboro County's definition of domestic vehicle so if we take this one we're going to have to look at our
domestic vehicle absolutely code too or take that out if it's unnecessary which I'm good I like that again I what we're thinking about if you have one Ford Escort that's wrapped as a maid service it's okay but you can't have two of them
in your driveway that that was my suggestion that doesn't mean I would agree I would agree with that but if you had one big concrete truck that's wrapped that's not allowed at all if it's class yeah if it's permanently if it's over a class three it would not be
allowed sounds good sounds good I think Mr Bron you had something Tom Bron Code Compliance just want to add that we allow right now commercial vehicles inside a garage so you allow so the one: one ratio would you allow they store two
of them inside the garage and one I'll let you figure that out okay just I'll let I think we should let them figure yeah yeah I if it's in the garage I I mean who cares it's your coffee table we don't care about
that does that framework seem logical yep does that seem logical to does that seem yes and thank you very much and again maybe before you distill all this into an ordinance and we have a 90minut
discussion at Tuesday night why don't we bring this maybe the same Workshop we could I think that would be a better absolutely we can certainly uh obviously do our research put together our best proposal to put in front of you
and then uh provide it in advance of the next workshop and then of course we can go through it as needed at the workshop okay and keep in mind the zoning too you know if there's commercial property you know I mean if you you get it we good
yes good yep all right um signs we just redid signs not long ago didn't I remember yes sorry I'm just thinking before you get to the science which is very complicated you skipped
over mic cies I don't know if you want to try that one it might be easy yeah well that's that's a good point okay craft beer and wine I I will tell you a little bit just my own before you talk is that I've been for years out there trying to attract a a craft beer place
here and I don't know a year and a half or so ago before Mr paully took over I I got some information about somebody who opened a craft beer place in unincorporated the first one in unincorporated hillsbor County and they
gave me a tour of their business uh which is a great business by the way um tell you offline where it is it's worth going but um he was telling me the Hoops he went through to get it took him over a year
because Hillsboro County had to change their future land use map in order to accommodate which is why every single craft beer place in hillsbor county for years has been located in the city of Tampa every one of them and they're
either in the city of Tampa or Pasco County and I never realized that until he told me that and I'm like you know what you're right he was the first one to open in Hillsburg County it took him over a year and because the reason I was talking to him was I'm like hey you need
to open a second one here in Temple Terrace and he goes well fix your ordinances and maybe I would consider it but I'm not going through this again it cost me a fortune and it took me forever and he goes and if you look at your FL future land use map you'll see that that
you can't do what you're asking me to do you cannot brew beer and serve it in the same location and so I called the previous community development director and said is this true and he said yeah and I said
well I'll talk to the city manager and said you know get to work changing this because I've been out there for years trying to get somebody to come here I had no idea that even if I was successful and got somebody they couldn't do it and so I am all in favor of changing this and I'm a little
concerned that we've missed the big wave of craft beer but um have a question yeah well what was the purpose I mean I just I ate at a micro Brewery um not last night night
before so it's it's a they brew beer and serve food I what would what was the purpose in the land use not allowing this use well I think it's an example of where times have changed and back when the land use was set up this business model
didn't exist and what were we concerned about I don't know but the business model now if you go some of them have kitchens but most of them do not a lot of them they're in the business of brewing beer they don't they don't cook so they have they brew the beer they have the Taff room or an outside patio
area where you can drink the beer consume the beer and then they have food trucks a lot of them don't have kitchens so yeah Mr be sorry Mr uh members of council so to council member Fernandez's question I think uh some of the history
here is is m multifold is breweries sometimes have you know the the the the pumps and the uh and God I can't think of it the Vats thank you the Vats the Vats uh give it off a littleit bit more industrial look I think that's part of it second thing is not just micro Brees
more like micro distilleries which is also another thing you may want to consider um I know we had one in my former community and it took a lot of Staff time because it was concerned about from the fire department particularly as to the storage of the alcohol and and things like that and then you know making sure there wasn't a
fire hazard things like that so I think probably for those main reasons it it it hasn't been something that's been easily accepted I mean but you can correct today I mean think of it you see it everywhere to me it would make sense to put this in just a wherever you have restaurants why could show micro Brewery so but obviously that's up to thunder
box has got a brewery I mean they're not as big as this room and they're brewing beer what has to change I don't know I don't know what I would I would agree I think that we need to do what what is required in order to
make these uses permissible obviously in very commercial areas of the city it you know has to be in locations that are suitable but and then address whatever the concerns are
regarding the the um fermentation you know the actual process of of making the alcohol but and as you said there may be some fire concerns or whatever the in terms of the actual material there but I
mean it makes sense to me as the industry exists and it's a very popular industry amongst people Mr Sean it considering there are so many bare places in St Petersburg I learned a
little bit about this they are they're somewhat concerned with the byproducts of fermentation it can give people headaches so that's why you know you wouldn't necessarily want it close to a residential area um you know if you
could limit it to um an industrial area or something um it was the I looked it up that had byproducts of the fermentation process can contri can trigger headaches in some people especially combined with the alcohol itself so if you're actually in
there drinking it's going to do that um and then also certain types of hops used in Brewing can also contribute to headaches in some people so and then there's sometimes an odor um I live right next to the the Kors bottling
plant in in Colorado and it smelled like potatoes in the whole neighborhood all the time so anyway so that's part of the reason why there are limitations as to where they are but they're major major operations I lived over at the Way Apartments on 30th Street back when
Budweiser was in in C certain times of the day you could even go outside was teric but that's Ma Maj production facilities what do what do we have to do to make make it make it happen well that was my question just
can we just say bring us back something that yeah I I think so and and there's different models of this that I think you would need to C do a few things at the same time one is at least in my opinion and I can't speak for the
council in my opinion we would allow this in most res in commercial I mean like downtown I mean if somebody wants to come in like dunderbox and they've got a they're going to or the one that I was talking about in Hillsburg County that's a classy I mean that's a great place to go
and that's not that that's not a bad neighbor to live next to I mean that's that's so we would whatever we would need to change you would have to tell us I mean we're not we don't need to really know that detailed now but the other
model the other part of this model is that some of these go into the industrial like the 301 Industrial Park I could see that where somebody would go into space there which might be cheaper than a commercial and they open up a tap room also and so we would have to look
at both sides I me know there's some in Pasco that are in an industrial park you know you walk you go in and it's in an industrial park it's next to a warehouse here and but it's a but they have a Tap Room so you'd look have to look at both
scenarios and in my mind I'm I'm I would be okay with both of those but I would I would agree I would want to see Industrial and Commercial use you're good I do have um a couple of
slides on this particular topic if we could pull the slides up please um it sounds like you've already answered the very first decision point for us um you you you sound to be collectively in favor of modifications in our code to allow for micr breweries
um you've mentioned uh I I I like the comment I heard earlier if if it can if the district can support a restaurant then it can probably support this and then of course we can add in the uh Industrial Park area as well um the next
um now this question does come up and I will be honest with you some communities do require this some do not um and I would like to hear your thoughts on this should a food component um be required in conjunction with a micro
Brewery such as a restaurant uh on site you only have like two operators in hillsb county that have that model I think Cigar City and um Tampa Bay Brewing Company MH I don't know of another one that has that restaurant component most of the Brewers don't want
to be in a restaurant business correct it's it's they do food truck I'm totally happy with allowing them food trucks or a kitchen whichever but if they don't it I mean they would still have to go through the regular
permitting process as a bar if they only serve alcohol and don't technically serve food I don't know what that is they there is a different process for permitting of this but it's not at the same level as your full full bar okay so
I mean it that would still be that that process would still exist whether we allowed restaurants or not but I I don't have an issue with requiring a restaurant on site for requiring one or not not
requiring not not yes it sounds like you're in support of facilities that could support food trucks on site I would support food trucks or if the business wanted to have a restaurant I would support either either of those
well thank you for that umill you look yeah that I remember in the days when they finally relax the the old blue laws in order to sell beer beer and wine on Saturday oh Sundays excuse me I mean there was actually a requirement that you had to have 40% food availability I
I don't want to get to that type of restriction because you're talking two different types of operations you're talking you're talking of a a Florida Avenue or a copper tail type um um scenario down on Ado or you get to
like Tampa Bay Brewing where it's smaller but an incorporates the food I think we should have the option of both being available not required very good sir I I think I see agreement yes very good sir very good um and just for your own
edification um this number uh of production this is the cap um it's I put Hillsboro County up there because they have it included in their Cod this is actually a state uh state beverage cap um I can't really associate that number of
gallons because that's a lot um but obviously anything greater than that um now you're moving into uh a full production Brewer but that does have an impact on the local government because um that cap is precluding that business
that I've been talking about they can't bottle their product they will never be able to add a bottling component because they sell that much beer on site they don't have any excess to bottle wow well but
there's that's I depending on your perspective that's a good thing because you don't have to worry about them adding a bottling component at but now you're get into kind of an industrial thing oh can't we just prohibit uh like a bottling facility oh
we could that's another way to do it I suppose I mean that is not to me that's not a commercial use that would be an industrial use that typ you wouldn't be able to bottle them I I mean I if if if it actually got to that point and you we
to think about that because they do can it yes and sell it in cans at at the site so you got to be careful that's actually um that's a great Point by the way and that's actually one of my uh upcoming decision points um if you'll
bear with me for just cuz even Gas bars that would that would prohibit what he's doing now I mean you can go in there and they have a can machine was one can well I'm thinking of like a bottling operation to sell at the grocery store or right you know
something seems like we should be able to put some sort of I think we limit I'm sorry if you look here at the third bullet point these are the three different uh models that are traditionally used if you look here at the bottom um
that covers it yeah yes Brewery to Consumer for on-site consumption or retail carry out um and this is very popular as you look at uh for the same reasons you just mentioned but these are obviously still limited to their floor
space and what their where their setup shop at um but it is uh it's onsite first and then carry out as an accessory uh so yes this type of model is very popular in this business well hillsbor County's ordinance should be a good goby
because it's new they just wrote this ordinance for that business like two years ago so so that's again out of the three models listed there the first one um the brewery to the wholesal the wholesal to the retailer finally to the consumer
that is that's traditional distribution of a brewed product um the next one is kind of a hybrid between the two and the last one would represent most likely I think what would fit best in our community I think that's what we're
trying to accomplish yeah okay y we good with this yes yes Carlos we're good yes sir okay did you get what you need all right um tree mitigation what do we did we talk about
that in the past this is something that's currently in the works um you may have heard me mention it briefly um I I feel like I've mentioned it very briefly in the past but our tree our current list of approved tree canopy
is outdated and is in the process of being updated according to the state's uh forestry service um I do know that Mr as I mentioned earlier Mr Mueller and Mr Ferris have been working on it I was hoping to have something um to share with you today unfortunately those of
you that heard me mention earlier Mr Ferris is out all week ill um so that that project didn't quite make it to the finish line for today um but I I believe Mr Mueller are you able to speak on that at all well come on come on up Mr Mueller
but in the interest of maybe saving some time I also know we have a money in the budget for a tree canopy Master Study so that's also close to yeah so it seems to me like we're going to have a pretty robust discussion based on the
state changing some guidelines and we're going to have the study the results of the study I'm just wondering if this conversation today is even worth having or just waiting until we have all this stuff I don't know we need to everything we discussed today is likely to change based on the state's guidance and the
tree canopy study well the state's guidance is already available uh it was previously published and we have that and um to some degree Mr Ferris has already been operating according to the updated information uh administratively
however our code has fallen behind and is not up to date on that okay the other um if you bear with me here the um the other things that I believe Mr Ferris and Mr Mueller been working on is
there there's areas in our current mitigation code that um have a void with regards to mitigation where uh trees are improperly trimmed or removed on already
established properties most of the code talks about a developer coming in to develop a swath of land that's what most of the code is speaking to with regards to mitigation but we've we've got a couple of voids in there where we need to up a little bit um because we've had
it happen recently where Property Owners business owners have improperly trimmed or removed trees and we've had to kind of fill in the Gap and I know Mr Mueller's more up to spe than I am yeah uh we've lost our slides on our monitors
on our monitors is she in the yes she working on it but I can talk without we give it back they're back thank you uh bullet point number three is one of the bigger areas here as as
uh uh Mr Paulie was saying the um our code talks about you know more more in the terms of what what trees have been removed during litig uh development either on wooded Lots non- wooded lots semi-wooded lots really
didn't address just a single family uh uh residents or somewhere else that had a tree taken down without a permit how do you mitigate that and one of the things that Mr Ferris has been looking at and I myself been looking at would be in that that type of situation we
proposing a you know one: one depending on the size of the tree a one: one replacement or a uh if it's a larger Grand Tree perhaps a 2:1 replacement meaning for the one tree either well one: one would usually be a 3-in tree so
if someone took down a smaller tree that was still protected it would be a 3-in tree but if they took down a brand it might be a 2:1 so in other words either two 3in trees or one 6in tree just to start developing these single you know just these these properties that are
already developed that have trees on them that we lose them um there was something oh and there was a formula in there for mitigation uh that was problematic because it really became into an unreasonable number of trees that you
that a property could never sustain um so that was you know part of this 1:1 2:1 was is being you know kind of drafted up to replace that um now my understanding on the tree survey is
that's only going to be on city property and rights of way correct so you know I don't know if it's going to be you know it's not a comprehensive tree survey throughout the city um anything else you feeling missing no I think you that's it's the tweaks are kind of
minor but really focusing on trying to what do we do when someone takes down a tree without a permit or improperly prunes to where they've had an effective removal on uh property that's already developed not in the development stage what is the gist of the update from the state
what is that all about the update from the state is talking about the actual approved canopy trees some of the trees on the old list are no longer considered indigenous to the West Central Florida area and we're simply um we would simply
be updating that list to remove those trees and add the new trees okay have question yes council member in in all of this discussion a lot of the improper tree trimming is actually coming from utility tree
trimming and I I understand we don't want to lose power and we have to trim around our power lines however they tend to butcher the trees to where not they look like trees anymore so that's
that is a huge complaint from citizens um will will any of our mitigation standard for trees that are improperly trimmed affect any of the utility
trimming and are we and in this in our mitigation process will we be suggesting as location like when when a a homeowner comes to us and
they've got they've taken down an oak tree and they've got this mitigation that they've got to put some back are we going to require and they've got utility lines in front and you know are we going to work with that homeowner then to put
an appropriate uh type of tree or you know in their yard or you know H how would that work uh if if you'll allow me to I'll take that second part of that question
first um this short answer is yes um Mr Ferris uh is very engaged in that exact service to our community um he would much rather uh do the the work on the front side than to have to deal with
someone who has allowed a tree to grow in in the wrong location and then now we've got a potential problem where a tree is taken out unpermitted or in many cases they're not even taking them and out they're not taking them out they're just doing terrible jobs at trimming
them that ultimately jeopardize the health of the tree so yes he is very forward thinking with regards to that um as far as the first half of your question with regards to uh utility trimming of trees this gets into to
easement rights and in many cases the utility companies hold those easements and there are easements easement rights within those uh authorizations that um our current proposal code does not is not intended
to encroach upon that and that would probably be more of a legal question as to whether that's even something we could enforce over an easement where they already have the easement rights to trim um I I know in some of those easement with some of those easement rights they not
only can trm but they can remove depending on what we're talking about and and again I'm not suggesting that we stop any utility company from making sure that the utilities work I I'm just more
questioning how we as a city can I mean the tree canopy we are a tree City so how we can work with the residents in recommending something if you drive down certain streets you'll
see that the trees are very unhealthily pruned um but we don't and we want to keep our tree canopy but we have to obviously balance that with maintaining our electricity because we've all seen what happens when that goes out
and um so anyway I was just wondering and and I get that they have an easement but is there some something that we can address regarding how you know would it be better just to take the whole tree
down versus trim it the way they are if if I may if you drive down to 113th Street there's still wires that are all screwed up because the trees were all grown around it okay to me when the utility comes in and has to prune
back these guys are pretty sad and what they do and it's like a bad haircut it'll grow back or you'll get used to it very quickly and it won't be that big of a deal I think so we try to go in and regulate what that's going to look like and what they're going to do it's like they know far better and these are tree
trimming services they're not it's not you know Steve and his pickup truck with a ladder hacking down trees these guys are Davey these guys are experienced and and if they had enough complaints they would they wouldn't be doing it anymore we're we're we're there's enough other
trees that that aren't around the uh the the the surface wires that it's not going to impact our canopy I believe in the one I'm not suggesting that we regulate what how the utility companies trim the trees I'm thinking more as we
look at uh having the right stock of trees or the right types so that when people residents come to us and say my this tree looks hor horrible this is terrible
I can't believe we did this that maybe the suggestion is we need to just take this it's in the wrong location this is the wrong tree for the wrong place here this is what needs to go here we have a lot of trees in our or in our tree fund
do that I I don't know I'm just I'm just trying to think of ways that we can maintain the attractiveness without sacrificing the utility service absolutely and um and as I mentioned
earlier yes uh that is uh definitely a service that we provide through uh our city arbest he does he does stay busy just shed some light on that the concerns Tom Bron Co compliance I know
Joe Ferris has spoken to me and he has reached out to those contractors that do the tree trimming that you're concerned about he's had conversations with them numerous times there's different Crews like you said there's Davy there's all
different types so sometimes his conversation just goes in one year and not the other year as far as um last month we had a few tree cases that came in front of the board and one of them was a business on Fowler Avenue they did some improper trimming and Joe went out
there and worked with the business and he approved certain trees because there high power lines on Fowler so he recommended these lower trees for and they just installed I think 15 to 20
trees so if you go by there on fer Avenue I don't want to say the name but uh you'll notice it's a big Improvement so he does have conversations so I don't want to cut this short but we're going to have to the the short answer is there's nothing we can do because you're
picking a battle you can't win and the state is giv these utility companies more money to more aggressively trim the trees to increase resiliency throughout the state so the local governments are saying oh my God you're you're hacking our trees but the state's saying hack them more you're not going to win this
one um and it's just I I don't know what to say about that but I you're not going to win that one so we have to do some things with the trees so the tree ordinance will be coming back to us we'll need to obviously we like everything else we
want to Workshop that before but sounds like this is coming from the bottom up to us so this isn't something we're directing it's got to be done so right okay so we have at least one council member who would like a restroom break so let's try to keep it like five
minutes because we have some some lengthy stuff we got signs coming up which I'm hoping won't be as lengthy as it could be um and the adus which I know is going to and then council member Fernandez has a couple things and we've got kind of an end time so let's take a
short 5 minute break thank you see you back here at [Music] 11: all right so 2.0 ready to go yes sir all right
everybody um so signs and and before we start this if I I want to say a couple things CU hopefully we can make this something we can manage I seem to remember last time we talked about signs last year here this was staff driven there was some
businesses that wanted to do some things like different you know on this particular building you know I think Salem was one of them there's some signs on two corners or something I don't remember this being a wholesale revision of the sign ordinance
it was more surgical about certain and I don't think we had a lot of heartburn about at that time and don't I don't remember us having a lot of heartburn over the surgical changes that you were proposing I didn't sense that there was an appetite for wholesale sign changes we
don't want to become like Fowler Avenue down there I mean but if am I correct this was rather pretty narrow surgical kind of revisions it wasn't yes sir um I agree with that uh completely um in in doing a little
research and looking back on this I will tell you that uh and I do have one slide here prepared for it um this question seems to come up from time to time and it has to do with primarily
businesses that are corner lot situated um we have in the past through waivers allowed development to construct and and I'll I don't mind saying the name because it's prominent in our community redevelopment area Chase Bank
for example Chase Bank uh sits right on the corner there by the fountain and by code they're allowed one wall sign and they through their uh site review process proposed for multiple wall signs
and when I say multiple I mean three um I think um there was a lot of discussion back and forth at that time and it it resulted on having two approved and those two that were approved were um in
in association with what uh staff is ref referring to Road Frontage so my question to the the council this morning with regards to signs is is this a condition that the council would like to see brought forward as a
waiver or would the council like to see a minor modification added to our code to allow businesses that are situated with multiple Road frontages uh up to one qualifying wall sign per Road
Frontage not to exceed two Road frontages Council I'm okay with that I'm okay with that I'm more care with that I mean if if it had been a second business that fronted versus one business with the two there would be a sign there for that
second business so I don't think that that's um so I'm in favor me too very good and what that will do just so um just so everyone is clear that would prevent an additional waiver uh if it
were to go through a site review process um because that's currently how we have to manage it is it has to come through and and here's a streamlined process they're getting to the same spot but we're removing some of the hurdles and work that has to happen so can can we
spend a couple minutes on the overall the the second bullet point yes sir um the overall size of Any Given sign is based on um we call it the facade coverage and different districts provide for
different percentages I believe the common one I'm going to defer to Mr Hall for this Mr Hall would you mind coming to the podium to help with this one um I believe 20 or 25% is a standard but I'll let Mr Hall speak to it more clearly Malik Hall a planner for Community
Development yes it is 20% so for example for even the plaza across the street I do ideally for the um all the signs the entire wall sign coverage for the entire building cannot exceed more than 20% of the building facade
obviously since there's individual units uh we typically go by um the unit facade if we can so this is your facade of your tenant space your unit space your wall sign cannot exceed 20% of that so ideally if it's proportional it will be 20% of the
overall building facade so we're talking strictly wall signs yes strictly wall signs not not ground signs not um other I what would be called yeah okay so just okay I better understand that what about the other signs there's a completely
different set of standards for the ground signs and to this point I don't believe but these aren't proposed changes no no I'm I'm just okay well I'm I'm I've been entertaining A an issue for the last couple months with with with somebody and it's I've been trying
to say you know go go work with with you know Community Development find out what the deal is okay wall signs that makes makes better sense okay I'm good thank you Mr Hall thank you and mayor honestly that's all I had on this particular item okay so that was very surgical this this
is one wall sign per that's easy yeah for Road see that was quick six minutes we were good good okay now let's stay see if we can stay on this role um but let's do this Justice and that is the issue of auxiliary dwelling
units very good sir and and yes this Um this can easily be a uh a bowl of spaghetti if you will um based on all the twist and turns with regards to these types of improvements on residential uh obviously we're talking
about improvements on a single family residential lot um our current comprehensive plan does provide for it in the um future land use categories R4 and R9 um that's where it draws the limit it does not carry on into the larger
multifam uh future land use categories but for our uh what you would recognize as any property that is zoned as a single family zoning District that's where our comp plan provides for it and again you heard me mention earlier as I
uh intro this Slide the first time um there's a lot of uh positives behind uh accessory dwelling units but obviously because you're introducing more density on a lot you're introducing the potential of um rental space that
may or may not be um we may or may not have the ability to regulate at the detail the city wishes to regulate and um other concerns uh the the the pendulum swings both ways when
it comes to accessory dwelling units oops I'm sorry I hit the wrong button as you know as you've mentioned previously discussed um at this point I would like to defer to the City attorney she does have a update on newly proposed
legislation that just began circulating I think I saw it for the first time yesterday um maybe earlier in the week uh she does have uh an update on some proposed legislation that May preempt a lot of what our discussion is here to
talk about Mr Shon um this was this is House Bill 943 there is a companion Senate bill it was I believe just introduced on the 24th so
we just all got it um Florida leue of cities is not happy with this um it's being pushed as to the public as a streamlining process but
streamlining is not always good um their idea of streamlining is just get rid of all zoning codes so um I could get into a lot of it it it first addresses basically the um live local act and
affordable housing there's quite a bit on that but I'm going to since we're talking about adus I'm going to skip down to that section and if you want to hear about the rest of what we're going to have to do I can and there's time I'll tell you later but for adus this
bill is going to require local governments to adopt ordinances allowing adus in any area zoned for single family residential use it provides that local government may
not directly or indirectly increase the cost to build an ad You by imposing restrictions on rental terms that do not apply to other housing uses within the same district so I think when this was first brought up at our previous uh
Workshop some discussion did occur as to whether the Adu um would be rented out affordably we you cannot do that so it's interesting that they have thrown this into the uh
Bill hoping to deal with the affordable housing crisis and then tells you you have to allow adus but you cannot require them to be rented affordably um we also cannot impose
parking requirements or design restrictions that do not apply to other use other housing uses within the same district and we cannot require uh discretionary repr approvals or other standards that do not generally apply to
other housing uses in the same district it is removing the current law requirement that the Adu must be rented at an affordable rate it requires local governments to submit an annual report beginning this October with information
about the number of Adu applications and the number of adus within the jurisdiction um it provides that a property owner may not be denied a homestead exemption solely because the property contains an Adu and allows the property assessment for the Adu to be
separated from the Homestead Property and that's it for adus um as I said there's a lot of other stuff in here having to do with um what we're going to have to allow and what we're not going to be able to do in
approving um affordable housing projects so okay so with that go ahead Council well I I have a couple questions so if we if according to that we will have to allow
adus in all of our residential neighborhoods is there the ability to put uh criteria as in setbacks and acreage usage of your you know the U impervious coverage of your property and
things like that it doesn't this this bill does talk about uh the the lot coverage and impervious surfaces it doesn't specifically include that limitation in the Adu section
so again this is not written very well and you could probably as long as they're not telling you as long as they're not restricting you in something you can do that um as I said it is addressing that in
the rest of this bill for um for uh affordable housing projects but not under the Adu section so and anything that you're building is going to have to adhere to the already established
setbacks if there's like a 6ft setback on a sidey yard or a 25- ft setback in a rear yard it's got to fit within the building footprint um so you you know it's going to have to adhere to that if you want to put some
other type of a restriction on it um i' have to know what it is specifically and before you because you probably answer this too then would the same apply to parking so for right now we you have to
have some sort of surface to park off your driveway um and they didn't say anything about require iring parking like a additional parking space for that unit but our our parking requirements would still apply to anybody parking
there it says you can't impose parking requirements or design restrictions that do not apply to other housing uses within the same district so if you have them already in that District you could impose them on the Adu as
well um so when Mr shown was reading this it it almost was verbatim What new H my my former state state of New Hampshire did a few years ago it was it was exactly the same which basically they came through and said you have to you have to allow adus everywhere and you can't impose additional restrictions
so this this is they probably there's probably other state they just copied it from other states which is typical for a lot of legislation um I don't know if this the bill has legs but right now just based on that one piece alone I I wouldn't be shocked if that version
of the just the ad piece gets adopted because again it is something that's been done elsewhere so um it could it could become an issue that you can't control you know it just it becomes one of those things that the state just passes and we just we just have to deal with as a community and try
to find the nominal controls that we have we typically as you mentioned setbacks things like that as long as we're we apply what everybody else is what we're doing for everybody else typically that that's acceptable we just can't what a lot of communities they first reaction was oh we'll just have a
different standard for parking or a different standard for this to kind of control it and that was what the legislator said don't to so then we should in this discussion be talking about how to make sure that an Adu
doesn't encroach into a neighbor space or the setback or something that makes it so that that that unit is not not invasive to the neighborhood if I could I just just I'm
sorry just for the spe from the from our perspective I think the reason we put it on on the agenda today was really just to see does the does the council want to pursue adus right first and foremost because we we're not sure if the council wants to pursue adus if you don't want
to pursue adus then if this be if we get preemptive by the state we'll deal with it then um but if you do obviously we can start the framework and come back to you during that Workshop another Workshop up and with some structure do you have a question uh no I
was just going to say we need to wait and see what the state does well to answer that to answer your question I'm in favor of allowing ad so let me I haven't had a chance to read these bills because they were just filed this week I did look and see neither one of them have been assigned
that sent to committee yet but they were just filed so that's not a sign Pam if you've read them me ask ask you this is there anything in the the current version now it'll get changed if it goes through the Committees but is there anything in the current
version that gives a date like the short-term rentals if a if a city has an ordinance that governs this prior to a certain date this pre we're grandfathered in and the reason that I asked this is if we did allow
adus I think the most important part of our proposal whether we do it or not is up to the council but the most the single most important part of this is that the primary residence has to be owner occupied I think that's the single most important part of our
proposed ordinance if we is there anything in there that would preempt that if we had an ordinance passed that requires the primary residents to be owner occupied because
if we wait and we're preempted we can never do that but if we do that now would we be grandfathered in or would we be preempted anyway because it didn't exist before a certain date yeah good point
hang on letter there isn't any specific date in that section that's saying you know that's going to say okay if you missed that boat you can't do anything so there's not anything in that particular section
in the in the the bulk of this because this is just a very small piece um there's dates mentioned but they were in 2023 so we've already missed that one anyway so
thanks to them for that um they're not giving you any chance um but I I think if although it says we cannot impose restrictions on rental terms um I don't think that that that's the
rental term for just the Adu itself so um I see nothing in this that would preempt us from saying that it has that the main structure has to be owner occupied okay so here's because because in in some of
the commentary on this it says that the purpose of this Adu section is to allow for is to give greater allowance for for uh the the generational you know for having um the um older family members
live there younger family members live there caregivers to live there and so that's um that's part of the reason for it but obviously you you're not going to be able to restrict it to family members they it's going to be able to be rented
to anybody so here's my I'm thinking while I'm talking which is always a big danger but but um I like to think can that and talk but right now I was hit with this bill that I didn't I haven't read
but it seems to me I mean I don't I don't want to say I don't care whether we do adus or not I don't think it's going to change the course of our city one way or the other but if there's bills and these bills start getting legs and going through committees and and
which they may it's too early to tell it would seem consistent with the previous legislative activities that they will get legs seems to me like if we have the possibility to pass an ordinance before this has an opportunity to get passed
and signed that requires at a minimum the primary residence be owner occupied and then we hope that we don't get preemptive because if we don't have that we almost certainly will be
preempted from passing it after the statute takes effect so I this this kind of changes things in my mind is I'm almost thinking like how quickly can we get this ordinance passed so that we get it done before the state gets it done the the other thing that's of
significance that I was going to say but it's kind of been overcome by this discussion is um I I'm not against adus i' under certain conditions I know we're concerned about the short-term rental thing but the owner occupied primary residence takes care of a lot of that I
mean you're not going to you don't have an absentee the owner lives there so I mean the short-term rental in the backyard's not going to be you know um where was I going with that I I just
think we need to get perhaps something passed before this gets answered for us and we can't do anything and and I haven't fully thought this out I'm just sitting here now thinking okay what happens if the owner moves out they want
to rent their property now they've got yeah I don't they're going to have two rental properties there so I have to further think about this that's what we don't want because then if they do move out which you can't keep them there obviously and they have the right to
rent out their main house is this going to now prevent them from renting out the Adu or will it need to be occupied by the people renting out the main house I think the goal last year for the Adu discussion our goal was
that one or the other of them needs to be occupied by the property owner now if it's an elderly couple and they want to move into the Adu and rent out the main house they can do it but the owner has to be living in order for the
other prop the other part of the property to be eligible to be rented the owner has to live in one or the other that that was our because essentially they could both turn into short-term rentals yes that's what we're trying to
prevent go ahead okay let me let me wind up pre your comment because that was that that just through a monkey wrench of the whole that that bill you brought up throws a monkey wrench of the whole thing what are we trying to accomplish just to establish an Adu policy what do
we have current we don't we don't have anything at this point so anything anything that you want to build on for generation or generational issues has to be attached with a doorway between the two I know I'm living through that now but so we're trying to come up with some
now we're going to have to try and come up with something so that the state can't come in and say okay you have to allow it irrespective of of of what you have on the books now you have to allow adus is that what this that's what your summarization is going to be unless you
have something on the book maybe prior to the his grandfather did that changes the whole thing the whole the whole conversation I what I was going to say um I do think it's significant I mean I don't I've been in
office nine years I don't know about you guys I've not had a single resident come up to me and say they and push me to you know have this apartment that I'd like to nobody in the community has ever come up to me and said would you please allow ad years
I have have you okay I think for all of the situations that I know of either they were existing already because they're the 1925's H 25 house or somebody has already gone and gotten a
variance and built their Adu it has not come to me as an issue however I have the same concern that the mayor expressed and that is if this bill does actually become law and adus have to be
allowed I would rather this city have something an ordinance in existence governing how they would be created before this bill would get passed because we did already have this problem with the short-term rentals and
we missed that window to to have any kind of Regulation at the city level um so that would be my concern and I have a question about if we do put requirements in place in in addition to
requiring one of the structures be owner occupied if we put regulations in place that require a certain setback or a certain coverage of the property is allowed or whatever that criteria is
there might be some Lots in this city that an ad is UN that it's not buildable it's not even possible how would that conflict with the state saying we must allow it in all neighborhoods if if it if it's not going
to fit because it's going to encroach into a setback then it's not allowed as I said it's got to be within that buildable footprint this doesn't change that okay um and if if if there's
not going to be um room for a paved parking space then this doesn't change that it just says that the law that that applies to other housing uses like a single family home within that same
district we can impose those same requirements we just can't impose additional ones so if you come up with any type of limitation that does not conflict with this you can do it it's when you conflict with state law then
you're preempted and I think the the owner o to me that's that's I don't think the adus are going to be an issue if we have an owner occupied requirement how would it work
well the owners got to live there the primary portion or they can live in either one but they have to the owner has to live on the property so one or the other I don't to me I mean I I know people that got old and they moved out of their main house house and into the garage apartment cuz they didn't want to take care of the big house they runed
the big house out but they're on property and so you can't that that's to me that's the key to to this and whatever else we put in there is whatever else and if the state
passes this and we can get in and not be preempted because we have this already now that's no guarantee of that they could preempt us anyway but at least we have a chance I'm agreeing with the owner occupied but I'm saying what what does
that how what does that get us as far as short-term rentals for the other portion nothing we can't we can't do anything about that but I think if it's a short-term rental I don't think it's going to be we got short-term rentals all over the city I know the problem ones are the ones that are party houses
the own they're not the owners not there I got two two houses down from me but people are house hacking now I mean the house behind me sold and they're you know they run out rooms yeah that's what's happening so their house hacking I mean they got people in and out of there all the time they're standing in the driveway waiting for the Ubers to
pick them up I mean it's not ideal but that's where we are so um anyway Mr B sir U just wanted to mention that I do know in other states that owner occupied is is something that is the premise of the Adu communities really fought back
on that they wanted to make sure they could have o or occupied for all the same reasons so I don't think that that would be something that would be that that far in left field about if we wanted to pursue that u in terms of timing I just want to ask Mr uh Mr Paulie because we have the unique circumstance here in Hillsboro County we
have to get our our chapter 12 is it chapter 12 we got to go to the plan got to go to the Planning Commission and there's only certain times that they meet do we know at the next time just thinking logistically how would we do this well no we're to probably to for March but it's that March yeah so June I
believe it's June September and then December okay so so if we could get in June the Planning Commission and then bring it here I mean we could potentially get this passed by
summer hopefully this won't be one that they're on fire to get signed as soon as it's you know so a question for you if it if we have let's say an ordinance written it goes in front of the Planning Commission for review
does that have to be the final ordinance that's approved by the city council or does it then once the Planning Commission has said that this is an allowable use could it then come back before city council
to finalize and make some changes to the or and I'm asking just because we might be able to get something in front of the Planning Commission in that's that the city council is 90% good with get the Planning
Commission to approve it and then this it can come back before city council for to be finalized or it will that process not work I believe that process can work if we limit modifications after their
review to non-substantive matters um we did something similar to that with the fence ordinance that you just recently uh considered and passed uh the Planning Commission saw a the earlier version they approved it in content and please
please remember that the Planning Commission is an advisory panel to this board um this board holds technically and I don't know that they would ever do it technically they could say no this is inconsistent and this board has the uh
jurisdictional authority to set aside their recommendation and make your own finding and decision that would not bode well with our the development of our comprehensive plan but just to give you an example that did happen with the fence ordinance
as you know it went back and forth several times for additional changes and updates but we did keep our Liaisons in the know throughout that entire process so what I'm asking then is if we were able to go in front of the Planning Commission uh the planning board and say
um we are going to allow adus in the yard but not necessarily have the very specific details no you have to have your ordinance yeah that's what I'm asking they have to have the ordinance but I well I'm not saying we wouldn't have the ordinance but I'm saying we
would have a an ordinance but potentially then they agree to it and we've established setbacks in the ordinance of 5T from the rear yard and and what whatever the the the specific building requirements are and then it
goes to the Planning Commission planning review board they approve it but then we and then but then it comes back to council maybe we say we don't like the five feet we want it 15 feet I mean like is is that those things
are already established we're not the ordinance doesn't need to contain those things the ordinance all the setbacks and all that that's different that's what I'm asking is it is it it because we would want to be able to establish the setbacks that's already in build so
we don't have to do that in this well then it's strictly will we allow adus or not it's progamic it's not setbacks and construction types and it all of that is already contained of our code so all we need to address our
adus whatever restrictions we are legally entitled to and want to put on them like I think we should put owner occupied um that that's about it really I mean it's not really that difficult to but is size
also she's scowling no I'm just I I I'm thinking ahead to yeah people wanting to put Adu coming to board of adjustment because they want to squeeze an Adu in and it's going to encroach into a setback so I'm already thinking about all the other things but you know that
would be that that would probably be a reason for a board to deny an Adu on that property because going back to the requirements for a variance if you can make reasonable use of your land that's all you get so to come in and say I want
a variance to squeeze an Adu in the board should say no to that so but I'm just thinking as you talk it makes me think of other things occurring so but also is size I know that the setbacks and the building
requirements will that in and of itself dictate the size of the Adu or would that be something that we have to specify in the so just based on my experience up north uh size is something you could regulate that's what a lot of communities did up north is that they created a minimum and a maximum um
minimum is usually set by the building code um for for you know a habitable space um but they were concerned about these little you know creating this thing where it's a tiny little thing that was not really safe for anybody to live in but they were also concerned when making it so big that basically it becomes now you have a duplex yeah it's
two two living units yeah but you had some some of that last year didn't you have like didn't we have a square foot it did have to be smaller than the primary residence but I thought you had some of that detail in our last year's discussion did you not Am I
Wrong uh give us just a moment let her check that I I thought you had some there were some I thought we discussed some limitations on Min and Max sizes and I don't remember remember we talked about garages and you know was that part of it closing in the garage type thing
yeah yeah we had some yeah we did yes we did talk about garages uh converting of a garage we did talk about um placement with on the property um we did talk about additional parking uh to satisfy I think the
request at the time was one additional uh parking on an approved surface per bedro we talked about we talked about those things I don't remember establishing a minimum or Max maximum size I I could be mistaken on that what
about plumbing and heat and cooking abilities and electrical so forth usually when these when these items are drafted in code the phrase they use is dwelling unit um currently the reason we don't permit them on the standard is
because all of our unless those that have been grandfathered of course all of our residential single family residential pieces um allow for for a single dwelling unit that's what prevents a accessory dwelling unit from being
placed and a dwelling unit think about eating sleeping um there's one more there help me out bath thank you eating sleeping and plumbing bathroom um to to qualify as a dwelling unit you
have to have these things now uh Mr Baya referred to um a type just a moment ago we've actually seen not in our community of course but through our research we've seen where people take basically a garden shed a little teeny tiny thing
and they convert it into a dwelling unit um I I think that that would be something we would want to avoid based on okay so we can set a minimum we're running short on time here but I think I think correct me if I'm wrong I think
I'm hearing some consensus here that we're favorable to this um under certain conditions we need to set some size limitations I I think we should require our owner occupied of one or other one of the dwellings um and then there's
some other things that you guys are going to need to talk about garages I mean and but I don't need we don't can't flesh out all the details of this right now but when we're talking about this bill from the state and they're talking about an
Adu are they would I we're trying to but they're not necessarily talking about a garage being converted and like an existing structure on the property being converted into a living space they're
talking about building a new Standalone yes not attached okay they Define it as not attached accessory that's why it's an it's it's an accessory dwelling unit if you're if you're just converting your garage I mean we don't stop that I think
they should because it makes a parking problem but anyway they nobody stops that from happening so okay so we wouldn't be addressing garage conversions in dis ordinance we'd only be talking about detached okay yes yeah well excuse me
but I know of a few that have been built garage detached garages that have been built lately that have two of the three components uh they have either a a it's a home office and uh one at bathroom but uh wasn't allowed because that makes it a dwelling unit or a kitchen or
something so very simply these can be converted it add a kitchen unit and that's a dwelling unit so you know so these could be retrofitted easily to become dwelling units but it's detached it's detached
yes yes if if I may sir um all of the research that we've uh acquired on this item talks about uh adus in three three separate categories um they actually do talk about garage apartments would be
one um they talk about uh completely separate structures or they talk about structures that are uh attached maybe you blow out a back wall and you build that way or something of that nature um I know we don't have it in this area but
they even talk about basement conversions and Second Story conversions and there are standards in there that require separate uh entrance for these facilities they are completely independent of the primary um they have their own kitchen their own bath their
own sleeping quarters Etc so um to be consistent with what's out there we would probably want to include some of this material within our code even if the uh heart of the code isn't speaking to some of these other aspects but as
council member Chambers just mentioned um it is it it is known to staff that there are people that will try to circumvent their way through The Code by building um we we hear this where they're building an office it's a it's a
studio office and then our inspectors go in and realize it's fully plumbed for bathroom and kitchen and things of that nature so it it is happening um our inspectors are aware that it's happening within our community and in in many cases those uh those types of
construction projects are being um diverted into what correctly meets our code and to answer your question Mrs Robinson did find what you were referencing um the previous director prepared um a draft that uh provided for
the accessory dwelling not to exceed 33% of the main dwelling or is it a minimum or 800 S whichever is or 800 square F feet whichever is less so yes you are absolutely correct it is
in the uh in the draft from last year okay so is it your desire that we have them distill this into a proposed ordinance that hopefully we can get before the Planning
Commission in June and then it would come back to us for two readings and and um yes we can make modifications to it at the two public hearings I can't be scrapping it and
starting over it we' have to go back before the Planning Commission but we do have the flexibility to make modifications at that point is that and time is of the essence yes is that your uh agreement with and then with the
components of one of the structures needs to be owner occupied and with whatever land use size requirements that we've determined and the minimum maximum sizes yes got to be
practical okay now because this one is time sensitive more than the others we may if I would think this one needs to be kind of priority we may need to convene the workshop to discuss this even though you
may not have the other stuff ready I agree sir I think this need and it w probably won't be that long of a workshop but time is kind of crunching on this one I agree sir I have no problem having workshops on these things so we're good okay Carlos you with
this okay we can't do this at Council so we have 15 minutes actually we have 16 minutes and council member Fernandez had a couple of items okay so um again I think that we've started the process of this but with the consistency
within the city for building and permitting issues um any way that we can streamline that process and make it very simple so that I mean I'm thinking a tab on the website that just says building
in Temple Terrace and then you click on it and you you see all the different projects that most home owners might choose like fence shed Etc when they click on it it's a live link and it takes them to offense here's what's
required um pavers here's what's required that that sort of thing and then and that way the staff all has one reference the public all has one reference um and
then just this would just be a review item just to see um consistency with area jurisdictions not that I'm expecting us to be the same as Plant City or Hillsboro County or Tampa but if our
regulations or requirements seem very burdensome as compared to some of the other jurisdictions by burdensome I mean if you want to put a p Pao this is an example A P patio down and in the city of Temple tears you're required to get
the most highlevel survey with a full tree count Etc and the cost is $22,000 to get that survey versus Hillsboro County where you're required to just get a simple boundary survey that's all just maybe it just a just a review to make
sure that we're not out of line with with reasonable requirements um and then my my third item which I'm going to I'll bring up at goal setting also is just
with the 1920 homes and the historic homes they're all out of compliance with our current code so I don't know what when we've talked about this they usually have to get variances to do pretty much any
exterior additions to their property so we set up the board it well it yes but also I wasn't sure if we needed to actually create some sort of building code
uh I don't want to say carve out but building code that's maybe specific so in the for the historic preservation board they would need to come before the board if they wanted to make substantial modifications to their house and then and not go through the
variance board as well but I I was just thinking of things that aren't necessarily modifications but just um putting back a porch that used to be there um so anyway that um and I'll have to check into this
but uh years ago my former employment we had the same issue we had buildings that dated to the 1800s and it was the same concern and what we did there is there is a u an international building code historic building there's an international historic building code
which if we haven't adopted we can we can look to adopt my former communte that's what we did we adopted that and that gives you a little bit more flexibility for these older structures because a lot of times in not so much our well probably our 1925 homes a lot of the stuff you know even the the roof
components whatever it might be building wall components they were made custom yeah and so there's not a standard that you can just go to like every 2x4 is like this every nail is like this I mean things we made and that's what that code allows you allows you some extra flexibility for interpretation on the part of our of our inspectors and our
building officials so we'll look at that um and see if that's something we can explore and if we already have it or I I'm seeing Mr fos give me a look so maybe he should come up and make sure you identify yourself Al a building official for the city in order
to do that the structure has to be declared historical they have to register that structure to apply the historical regulations to it that might encourage people to that may encourage them yeah register homes is historical you have to be declared historical on the the state or federal
registry to enforce the historical restrictions on it okay so if we did so if we did that then the board would have purview and the board could if there was any beyond the code if there's anything that stipulated still needed some relief they
could go directly to the that would give the board some guidance too because as it stands now they would be left you know like I'm not a con I'm not a contractor I'm not an engineer I don't know what but that would give them
something to look at to base their decisions on that's it that's all I have for the new items Mr be you you wanted to I don't know did you want to talk about anything no I I so the council member fernand's Point she and I have discussed
this also um a few days ago I I agree uh we're Mr paully and and and I have talked about streamlining the processes one of the things that I've mentioned to M actually Department directors is um I'm a big fan of using the lean or Six
Sigma uh process Improvement uh sort of formula um something that I want to do with with the building Division and actually probably all of Community Development and not singling them out I think it's something we could do across the board and it would entail time you have to take basically shut down the
office for about half a day for every single day for a week to map out everything that's going on and identify we fin in the past having done this is that a process that you think takes once you map it you realize it takes a 100 steps for this process and there's all these different turns and and twists but
once you clearly identify you realize you don't have to take 100 steps maybe it's 20 um and maybe that you know that will help our residents also so they don't feel like they're being bounced around so we're looking at that in addition to the the items you mentioned about the how-to sheets and changing the website uh our Pio Miss Rodriguez is
here too she's here for a reason to get that information so she'll will be working on that as well with Mr ply good okay so we have 10 minutes anything
else no no anything else no nothing first of all I would just like to thank each of you um I know that uh some of these discussions uh kind of run long and I I appreciate
your patience and your tolerance but um as I mentioned when I opened this morning we were hoping to get good constructive feedback uh and I thank each and every one of you for providing that to us this morning um I think that the staff is I I've been glancing to my
right over here on her computer screen because she's been recording um all the substance of changes that we need to look at so um I know staff has uh a a a clearly find Target uh that is in Focus now that we can walk away and we can
start building out uh those drafts that we talked about obviously adus at the top of that list so I thank you again for that I thank Mr Baya for his support and Mr Shonen the entire staff for their support I do have one more thing I would like to add um you all know Mrs Robinson
you've known her for quite some time she has uh she's been a tremendous asset to the Community Development Department she's already worked in multiple roles in the department and uh it is my pleasure and honor to introduce her to you starting Monday as the new deputy
director of Community Development congratulations I for one I'm extremely happy for that um I look forward to your continued success at the city and want to thank you for all you do for the city in addition to your normal duties that
you you do probably as much extracurricular activity than as you do on on the clock so thank you very much and I'm very happy in that decision so thank you thank you sir and um I'd also like to thank the council and U you know
I'm like many of you I'm on a lot of different boards and work with other elected officials and transportation and tourism development and what you know all this kind of stuff and and uh when I talk about how well our Council functions this is what I'm talking about
uh it's not that we're all think the same we don't but this conversation I will tell you on some of the other boards that I'm on it would never I we would we would leave here more confused than we ever you know
we would get here at 9:00 confused we would leave at noon and be totally confused and so um we get stuff done here I and you're right it's not where it needs to be sometimes in terms of customer service but it's getting better I mean we're we're we're definitely
heading in the right direction and the work that we're doing here today is going to pay dividends for our residents and contractors that do business here and our staff I mean it has an impact on everybody to streamline these things so that code has clear guidelines and and
the code board doesn't wrestle with the boa doesn't have to wrestle with stuff that's IL defined and um so it's hard work this is the hardest work of being on the council it's easy to come Tuesday nights but this is where the work really happens and so this is what I'm talking
about and uh I I know there are those that say oh you know they just always agree and they don't you know it's better if they fight and and I don't I don't subscribe to that I I'm sorry I just don't um i' on lots of boards where all they do is fight and I just sit
there and play on my phone it's just nothing gets done so your point on that you know we all have the opportunity pre prior to meetings to meet with Mr baa and go over it but we can't sit here and I can't hear what Miss Fernandez says or
your thoughts or or or Mr Chambers and you can't hear my thoughts because we can't talk about it um and I I want to avoid what happened with the with the fence issue in in in in Council because again we still can't have the same type of give and take because we're dealing
with an ordinance that's already been flushed out you guys have already done a lot of hard work on it and uh I like I I I I have no problem if we have more or of these type of work sessions I don't want to have it every week I don't want to have them all the time but this is a
big issue the the this whole series of issues that you know we could flush okay fine I can live with that you know whereas whereas it's um we get to talk about it and educate ourselves and and and move forward as a group and then you guys can take back what we what we're
coming up with and get a get a better feel for it so I hope to have at least one or two more work sessions with all these other issues before you know they come to except for the 0us you know because we need to time is of the essence on that
one okay well we all have to go to uh Public Works I have a uh chili cook off trophy to win so I I will see you over there we will win really yeah we will
stand adjourned [Music] [Music] [Music]
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