It is now 4:30 Eastern time and 3:30 Central time and we would like to begin our meeting. Miss Summers, you already conducted the welcome and logistics and reflection material and we appreciate you doing that. And I would like to call
this meeting to order. Uh would would you please call the role Vice Chair Hillard and the appropriate response is here present or nothing? Okay. Um, Miss Baird, >> present.
>> Miss Dockery, >> present. >> Mr. Hillyard, present. Miss Now, >> present. >> Miss Singleary, >> present. >> Dr. Stout
has not joined us yet. Miss Winters also has not joined us yet. and Chair Kaneas >> present. >> Uh, Chair Kaggus, you have a quorum. >> Thank you, Vice Chair Hillyard. As the
committee is meeting virtually, we have prepared a statement of necessity. Miss Summers, would you please read that statement? >> Absolutely. The Tennessee State Board of Education's English Language Arts Standards Recommendation Committee, SRC, called an electronic meeting today at
3:30 p.m. Central on October 1st, Wednesday, 2025. This meeting is called to continue proposing revisions to the ELA standards. Due to the time-sensitive nature of the items on the committee's agenda and the fact that committee members reside across the state, it was
determined that a physical quorum of the members could not be assembled in Nashville for the purposes of this meeting. And as such, this meeting should be conducted electronically. Notice of the meeting was posted on the state board's website along with the agenda and instructions for accessing
the meeting. >> Thank you, Miss Summers. PCA8-44-108 requires all votes taken during electronic meetings of the board to be uh t be t taken by call of role. As this is a virtual meeting that's being
recorded, I move that the recording serves as the minutes for our meeting. Do I have a second? >> I second. >> Vice Chair Hillyard, please call the role. The appropriate responses I or no. Miss Baird.
>> I >> Miss Dockery. >> Hi. >> Mr. Hillyard. I uh Miss Nail. >> Hi. >> Miss Singleary. >> Hi.
>> Dr. Stout is has not arrived. Miss Winters as well. So, Chair Carnegus I. Uh Chair, you have six eyes, zero nos. The motion passes. >> Thank you. Members, advisers, and staff,
please use the what the uh raised hand function or say Chair Carnegus out loud to be recognized unless I call on you. Since we're meeting virtually, I ask that all speakers identify themselves before addressing the group. Participants, please mute yourself if
you're not speaking. For the benefit of all Tennessans, please avoid the overuse of jargon and acronyms. where possible, please define them when they're used. We will now proceed with our next item on the agenda. Vice Chair Hillard, where
are we? >> Miss Summers, do you have something to add? >> Yes. Thank you, Vice Chair Hillard. Real quick, members, like we talked about, we've got the elective standards, you've got your overall introduction, appendix, glossery, and references. And then
finally, we'll need to wrap up the parking garage. Of course, you're welcome to tackle this in whatever order you see fit, but those are our to-do items to close this committee. In the event that this is our last meeting, in the event that this is not our last meeting, I ask that we spend the last
sort of 5 to 10 minutes leadership team talking about our availability for any future scheduling because our Fearless Comm's officer, Josh Walton, will need to flag that in the newsletter for tomorrow. So, I'm hoping to get that settled today if needed. I appreciate everyone's dedication and patience.
We're really grateful for y'all. You do not have any written or public comment that I'm aware of, but I will let you know if that changes because it was due 5 minutes ago. So, I'll check my email one more time. Any questions about those items? >> No. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you. And I'd like to welcome Dr. Stout. >> Okay. >> I was running from class. Sorry. >> We understand how that works. We're all busy, folks. So, Coach Hillier, will you uh tell us where we're at and begin our discussion?
>> Yes, I'll be happy to. Um, so we are we have completed the core English standards. We have moved to the elective standards. Um, we had previously already looked at genre, literature, and mythology. We started speech and communications in our last class, our last class, last session. Uh, you can
see I've been teaching all day. Um uh our last session um we got through the first five uh speech and communication standards. We're now on standard six of 11. Um that is on row 112 of the
electives tab on the spreadsheet um if you'd like to follow along there. Okay. Um then we'll go ahead and get right into it. Um, speech and communication standard six reads, "Adapt speech to a variety of contexts and
tasks demonstrating command of academic English when indicated or appropriate." >> Any questions, comments? >> Question real quick before >> Go ahead. >> We move too deep. Um so
four um standards that are I guess basically the same as something that we have already done in one of our speaking and listening standards. Are we wanting to keep those consistent? Are we cool with them not being the same? I just don't want to keep pointing it out
if we're fine with them being the not being the same >> in the in the elective areas. It's my opinion it doesn't need to be the same. >> Okay. >> That is that seems to be our operating principle thus far. Um, none of our standards have been identical to those in the speaking and listening. Oftentimes they're they're similar in
their language, but they have not been identical. >> If we're comfortable with that, let's proceed. Oh. Um, Miss Summers, is there a way that you could uh expand the the U presentation, the visual that you've got
there, maybe eliminate it? Yeah, because these poor eyes just don't have it anymore. Thanks. Well, I've I've tortured you through a couple hours worth of looking at a spreadsheet. So, >> all right. >> Thank you. Okay. Does anybody have any
questions about the one that Cocher Hillier just read? If not, we're going to move on. We'll accept it. Accepted. Next. >> Okay. Um, next we have evaluate a speaker's point of view, reasoning, and
use of evidence and rhetoric. I would presume we intend perspective there rather than point of view. Does everyone agree that that would be the an instance where we'd want to say perspective? >> I do. and and and hopefully since this
would be a change here in in the uh in the speaking or speech class that that would be reflected in in the uh standards guide so that people will say
hey what are you talking about now uh can we do that banks just tell them about the change >> uh we can for the English standards. We haven't traditionally had standards guides for elective courses. >> Oh, okay. Well,
>> um we just kind of respond to inquiries on an individual basis if we receive those and we'll certainly be happy to do that. Yeah. >> All right. >> I I would think that the the switch from point of view to perspective should be one that I don't think that will cause confusion in classrooms.
>> All right. Uh with that change, would everybody be okay with it? Hearing no objections, let's move on. Okay. Um, speech and communications aid is assess the stance, premises, links
among ideas, word choice, points of emphasis, and tone used. Questions? If there are no recommendations for changes, let's approve this and move on. >> Are we good to are we good to keep that
one? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Um SC9 reads use technology strategically. Um substandard A reads find and evaluate information. Substandard B reads connect and collaborate with others. And C reads
produce and share content. stay consistent with what we've done before. Should we say use digital tools strate strategically? >> I I believe so. >> Yes. >> I also do do we feel as though the the
substandards here are are necessary? they are quite short and um I worry that that outside of context substandards A, B, and C sound like they don't have anything necessarily to do with digital tools. In the context of the greater standard,
it's clear that they they relate to digital tools, but I I don't know if outside of that context they would. >> You're right. Are you suggesting >> just I would just say to use digital tools strategically to find and evaluate information, connect and collaborate
with others, comma and produce and share content. >> I see. Yes. How are they connecting and collaborating with others using digital tools? I'm just asking the question.
Um, I mean I think we are like >> Yeah, but they do that. >> Do they do that? >> I mean they might be sharing a Google doc. They might be using some sort of shared editing platform. Um, you know
that there there are other ways that they might be collaborating and connecting with peers. But yeah, I mean I I think they also could be using WebEx or Zoom or some other video sharing platform. >> Okay. All right. I agree. I just want to clarify. Are we are we do you do we agree that that the
substandards here could cause a little bit of confusion or is that just something I'm flagging? >> I think they're unnecessary. I think you have described it in a in a better fashion than the using the substandards. That's my opinion and I would say we keep your recommendation.
Use technology strate strategically to find an Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. >> So, it reads, "Use digital tools strategically to find and evaluate information, connect and collaborate with others, and produce and share content."
>> Beautiful. Yes. Agreed. It's in. >> Okay. Um, SC10 reads, "Initiate and participate in both in-person and digital communication." um we used that language of uh initiate
ear uh earlier. So I think we should maintain that language of initiate. So I I don't have any edits unless other folks do. >> I say we keep it. No objection. Keep it. Move on. Okay. Um, SE11 reads, "Integrate rules
for digital citizenship." I think I know what that one's gesturing at, but I I have a little confusion there. >> How about just demonstrate digital digital citizenship? If we if we stay in alignment with other things that we with other standards that
we um address digital citizenship in, could we say um you know use digital citizenship responsibly and appropriately or that was the language we we used before. Not that we have to
stay in alignment, but >> I would think just demonstrate. Um, >> yeah. I don't know. I don't understand. Integrate or or use. I was >> I don't either. That's confusing. >> Yeah. Demonstrate digital citizenship. I
think >> I think that's pretty simple. Yes. >> Yeah. I I would agree with Dr. Stout. >> So, you would change it to I believe it would just read demonstrate digital citizenship.
>> Yes. And you making that change now? >> I just did. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. As is written, are we all okay with it? I hear no objections. Let's move on. Okay. Um if that's the case, then we
have completed the speech and communication standards. >> Hooray. Um since we're going to be doing uh elective standards the whole whole day uh whole evening I guess um would make sense for us to just start at the
top and then move down. We've been kind of jumping around the spreadsheet because we've been trying to select short ones but now since we're in for the long haul. I think it might be time to start from the top and move down if that is okay. >> Let's roll. >> Okay, that would move us to creative writing. Um so if I look back
>> near and dear to the heart of many of our committee members. >> Yes it is. >> Um so just uh to see what creative writing is described as it reads as students in creative writing will focus on the imaginative aspects of writing
fiction poetry and literary non-fiction. They will engage in lectures, discussions, workshops and feedback sessions to improve their own craft. And they will study exemplars of various genres to explore possibilities and examine others creative endeavors. So that is what the class is about.
>> Okay. >> Are we we ready to get into creative writing one? >> Are we charged to make any changes to that or is that somebody's class definition that we don't need to tamper with? That is the that is the current language in the supporting document or the supporting language. Um we have not
looked at any of the supporting language for electives yet. I propose that we look at that supporting language for electives after we've moved through the the standards for the various uh >> I agree >> elective courses. Um just since we have not done that thus far, I do think there are a couple things that I've flagged on that supporting language document that
we'll want to take a look at. Um but I think that's a that's better suited to a different later time. >> Okay. I I will um start taking a look at some of the language too on the supporting docs. I've done some of it but not all of it. So, I'll do that. >> Okay. Yeah, that'd be great.
>> Appreciate y'all. And if you want to, you know, you're not committed to these sections or this order or formatting. If you want to put any guidance, you're welcome to put guidance. I just ask that all the electives are the same. And then two, just know that because we're integrating these documents, whatever glossery you have
>> in the main document will be the glossery for everything. So if you needed to like define I don't know one of the word digital citizenship totally up to you all but if you wanted to define that it would just go in the regular glossery there >> I think we should probably flag that
definition of digital citizenship um just since we're not really explaining that in the in the standard. So maybe we put that in the um parking garage for later to to define Is that where we've been putting u glossery items or have we just kind of kept those in our in our
brains? >> I think Miss Now's been very thoroughly adding them to the parking garage. >> Great. Thank you, Miss Now. That saves us a lot of a lot of back tracing. >> And have we add have we have standards about digital citizenships in the lower
grades as well? Right. I remember we talked about it, but I don't know where we fell on it. >> I'll search. Let's move forward. >> Okay, >> let's keep rolling. >> Okay. Um then let's look at creative writing. So this would be row three of
electives. Um explore strategies and resources for accessing memory and expanding knowledge to inform writing. Any thoughts there chair? I believe you may be muted. Okay. I say it's nice to have memory.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's central to the task of creative writing. >> That that is a a task of creative writing, accessing memory. Okay. >> Anyone have any proposed revisions there?
No, let's move on. >> Okay. Um, creative writing two reads clear uh create a clear image using sensory imagery and specific details. >> Can we better define clear image? Clear what kind of image?
Um, I mean, I suppose we could. I I kind of frankly like the the the openness of image um because image manifest in a lot of different ways within creative writing. >> Great. Anybody else have a question comment? >> Hearing none. Let's move on.
>> Okay. Um CW3 uh it reads analyze the text and illustrations in children's picture books. Just for uh you know context here if in case you haven't taught a creative
writing course um creative writing courses almost always uh and you'll see in the fourth standard um have one of their in like early task is is planning creating your own children's picture book. Um so this is kind of the the first step for that kind of an introduction to creative writing. So if
that does sound a little odd in the context of a high school course um it's just that's a that's a common practice that it's been implemented in creative writing classes. >> Okay. Thank you for that clarification cuz it seemed a lot of it seemed strange to me. All right. If you accept that, I'm I'm
ready to go with it. I hear no objections. Keep it. >> Okay. Um and then the corresponding standard to that CW uh 4 is plan, organize, and create a children's picture book. >> No objections. Keep it.
>> Okay. Uh CW5 is explore a range of poetic forms and be able to explain the opportunities and limitations of each. I have no notes there. Um but if anyone else does, I would be open to those. >> No.
Does TDOE have any comments on any of the creative writing course work? >> No. Okay. >> Not. No. >> Go ahead. Next one. We're going to keep that one. >> Okay. Um, CW6 reads, "Anal analyze
personal essays and memoirs for structure and style." >> Anything? Nope. Move it. Keep it. >> Okay. Um, CW7 reads, "Plan, organize, and create a personal essay." Um, that one is missing a comma, but outside of
that, I don't have any recommendations. >> Anyone keep it? >> Okay. Uh, CW8 reads, "Analyze various short story techniques and create a short story incorporating one or more of the techniques."
You give me one. Nope. Keep it. Okay. Um, CW9 reads, "Capture dialogue from real life situations and analyze conversational patterns." >> Anyone? Nope. Keep it. >> Okay. Uh, CW10 reads, "Create bio
biographical sketches for the observed dialogue. Seems a little odd to me. >> Yeah, I think >> it's like it's a Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> No. Yeah, continue. I was cutting you. >> No, I It's almost like it's a
continuation of the previous standard. >> Yes, I feel that way, too. >> I think that was the intent from looking at my notes. >> So, you could possibly combine them. They were separate standards in the
previous rendition also. So >> I have a question as a non-ELLA teacher. Is a biographical sketch is that an activity or is that a form of writing? What is a biographical sketch? So in the context of creative writing, a
biographical sketch would be um like in this instance they're listening to dialogue or they're getting dialogue outside of context of any other uh outside any other context. They're just seeing dialogue and then from the dialogue they're attempting to craft a character that would speak that way. Um
so it's an attempt to kind of uh to flesh out the biography of a person just through hearing what they say. >> Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. Um, I think I I don't necessarily know if this one has to be connected to the CW9 because I don't want it to just be
like you could do biographical sketches from from something other than just observe dialogue from real life situations. Um, but you like you might create biograph I might uh I'm thinking of something I might do in my classroom. Like I I might remove dialogue from a published short story and not have the
students read the entire short story, but just expose them to that dialogue and ask them to craft characters that would speak in that way. And then with the context of the added story, we would then read the full story and see how much their crafted characters align with the characters in the in the published story. Um,
>> separate activities. They could certainly be connected, but I don't think they have to be. Um >> Okay. >> Um I think you could just say create biographical sketches from dialogue. Okay. Yeah, I would go along with that. Don't anybody have any objections to that?
All right. Let's keep it as as uh modified by co-chair Hillyard. Next. >> Okay. Um, CW11 reads, "Develop distinct characterization within a short story."
>> Anyone? No comments? Let's go. Approved. >> All right. CW12 reads, "Revise a short story with attention to information from the biographical sketch focusing on dialogue." Um,
I don't know. This seems a little over specified again. It seems like a continuation of one of the previous standards, >> right? Um,
>> this may be a place where we didn't change terms. um under the previous rendition 9 10 11 12 they all dealt with biographical sketches
and uh those words may be the big hangup I don't I don't know >> I mean do we have I don't see that there are any other standards related to revision
Did we simply just say revise writing? I mean, I would think we wouldn't just want them to revise short stories in this particular contract context. We'd want them to revise writing in general. >> That makes sense to me because later on we do have writing for a variety of
audiences. >> So, you know, we have that the standard otherwise you know revise, try a new approach. So to me that makes sense >> it seems more like process to me than
standard >> well in the context of a that that distinction gets a little blurriier in an elective course. Um because sometimes the the process is the thing. Um, but I guess I just wanted to make it broader because I I don't want them just
revising this one short story at this particular time. I mean, the whole basis of a creative writing course is basically workshops and and revision. Um, so I I don't think it should just be happening in one particular context. >> Then do have a did Miss Dockery have a comment?
>> Yes. So, I'm just wondering if we um if we change it to just revise writing if we put it in a location around uh the standard that was now mentioned just because I feel like it'd be kind of awkward placed in the in the middle
right here. >> Well, okay. >> Actually, no, because I >> I changed my mind. I changed my mind. Yeah, because we actually do get into that. I I misread my bad. >> Is anyone concerned about the brevity of
the standard? It is two words. >> Is it necessary? >> I certainly think so. I would feel reluctant to have a creative writing class that did not have a revision standard. >> Well, effectively >> revise writing effectively. That's three
words. That was true. There we go. >> That's rigor. That's rigor. I just asked. >> Yeah, we're we gota we're we're a verbose crew. We have to add the words. >> All right. I like it. Everybody have any problems with it? All right. Well done.
Let's move on. >> Okay. CW13 reads, "Participate in collaborative workshops to review peer work." Um, I believe this should be kept as is. >> Okay. Any objection? Keep it. Move on.
>> Okay. CW14 reads, "Develop fluency, logic, clarity, and creativity with writing." >> Any objection? I hear see a lot of head nods, so let's move on. That's kept. >> Okay. Uh CW15 reads, "Right of right for
a variety of audiences." I think we should keep that. Agreed. No objections. Move on. >> CW16 reads, "Explore diverse modes and genres of writing." Um, I agree with that. I think that should be kept.
>> No objections. Okay. Keep >> one question. Should we also include um for explore um diverse perspectives as well within that one?
What do they mean diverse modes? >> Modes is like the conversation of multimodal we had in our our call last night. Um >> um genres obviously I think we know what that is. Um where would that would that just be
added to the list miss? Now I'm not sure. Would we would would we say explore perspectives of writing? That seems I don't know if that's a phrase that that we would typically use. >> Uh I was just trying to make sure that
we were capturing even within the elective standards uh some of the conversations that we had last night. Um I'd like to continue that in in our electives as well. So yes, um
>> we and if that's not the best place, then that's fine. But >> well, are are we asking students to write about diverse cultures if they're doing creative writing? Or if they're going to create, can't they just create
what they want to? That's the only question I would have. I don't know that we need to put it in here. Uh, Miss Now, perhaps elsewhere. Any other comments about that? Um I I agree with Miss Nell generally um
that that language needs to be included throughout the the elector standards. I I but I I think I I may agree with Chair Kaggus here that I don't know if this is the exact place. Um I guess this is really describing their exploration is through writing rather than through
reading. It seems um explore diverse modes and genres of writing like they will be exploring through their own creation. um whereas I think exploring diverse perspectives we typically imagine as happening through reading. >> All right. So then are we okay with the
wording as it is written here without revision? Yes. Let's keep it move on. >> Okay. Um CW17 reads utilize evaluation and revision skills through the writing process.
Isn't that what we had in uh CW12? >> Yes, I would say it's comparable. Um I like the way that's said right there. Maybe we could eliminate 12 and just
reumber. What do you think of that? What else? There's duplication there in my mind. >> Yeah, I mean I think the only possibility I could see um like the act of evaluation is slightly different from
the act of revision. Um especially in the context of a creative writing workshop wherein you're evaluating the works of your peers. Um, and that is like genuinely a a crucial skill to develop in a creative writing workshop is is how to evaluate the work of others
and not just evaluate one's own work. Um, so I'm not sure if the revision skills portion needs to be there. Um, but I I think utilize evaluation skills throughout the writing process might >> well if you're talking about uh peer
evaluation, maybe we need to focus that on peer evaluation. Otherwise, I think it's >> we I'm sorry, chairs. >> I just think it's duplicative, but I understand where you're coming from, but
uh I I think it would be best if we uh narrowed that to talk about it. It it makes it makes sense uh if you're talking about peer evaluation in that setting.
Yes, I see your hand. Thank you, Miss Now. >> Sorry, we've not been consistent about that. I know I have not. Um, we already have uh CW13 participate in collaborative workshops to review peer
work. >> Yes, we do. >> So, do we feel that this standard just needs to be deleted then? Have we covered these bases? Think so. >> Does CW17 say what we want to have better than
CW12? >> I like the the precision of CW12. >> Okay. So, we would eliminate CW17 as duplicative and exit out and reumber.
I'm wondering if we combine uh 17 and the other one. I keep losing my my place uh the collaborative workshops because I'm wondering uh you mentioned that evaluation piece and are we okay with
missing or losing evaluation? I've never taught this class, but um I'm just interested what what you all maybe who have taught it think that's something that's okay to lose or not. >> Yeah. I mean like evaluating peer work
is is a essential aspect of participating in a collaborative workshop. But I I personally would like to have some language about evaluating um stu peer writing. Um >> all right. I think what she's saying is
can CW13 and uh M do correct me if I'm wrong say participate in collaborative workshops to evaluate peer work >> let's say evaluate and review right just
to get both those aspects in there >> yeah yeah I mean the workshop itself is not really about evaluation uh the evaluation would happen prior to the workshop and then the the workshop would be for review um so I think it would be something along the lines of like uh
evaluate peer writing to prepare for collaborative discussions and participate in collaborative workshops to review peer work. >> I like that. That's a lot. Can you uh craft that for us to look at
again? >> Sure. Are are we missing something about the eval the skills here? One's one's saying you're revising a short story. You're participating in collaborative,
but to me, this one's kind of honed in on the skill set to do an evaluation and revision. I could be wrong. Yeah, I I think we we gestured at that through revise writing effectively u by
that inclusion of the word effectively. I think that's that's suggesting that students need to develop the skills to revise effectively. But I I think you're right that we're missing something when it comes to evaluation skills. I mean, is should we just keep CW17 and
say evaluate peer writing effectively to mirror what we did with CW12? >> Well, I guess I'm back to why the word skills is stuck in there because there is a way there and we all been there. There's a right way and a wrong way to
to to evaluate something and recommend revisions, etc. So, I wonder if the skills piece really was what they were going after. I have no idea, but something tells me there's something there that we're overlooking,
or we could be overthinking it. No. Yeah, I think this was intended as the evaluation and revision standard since I mean the original CW12 was really about revising one particular short story that they wrote in a very particular context.
Um, so I I think this was the attempt to include evaluation and revision within the standards which we've now kind of done at least for revision. Do we need evaluation? You want You said you wanted evaluation in there.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's something as someone who's taught the class, it's something we spent time working on. Um, so I I do feel like it's >> Can you Can you craft a statement that we can react to? >> Um, yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's
perfect wording, but my my original wording was just evaluate peer writing effectively. Um, just to mirror what we wrote for CW12. I don't think it's like beautiful or
anything, but I think it largely captures what we're trying to convey there. >> Yes. I would add this goes back to when we were talking about salutations and we were talking about using a provided system.
Uh I can we add some wording like that evaluate peer writing effectively using a standard or provided system. I know in my day this is old. We used to have you
know the little marks. they don't use the little marks anymore, but something like we're doing now, um suggesting edits instead of editing over the comments, like there are still ways in which they're best practices in um review.
>> Yeah, I think that's good. Um because you're right. I mean, any creative writing workshop is going to have a a structure around how that feedback is offered. It's not like you just sit around in a circle and chat. I mean, that's part of it, but you come in with a particular format of of revision. um
>> if helpful. I believe the writing standards have something is it standard nine taming maybe about um like using available technology so that that way it stays up to date with the times related to digital tools and that gives you some gives you some
flexibility on sort of collaboration or editing software. >> Yeah, I think that's popping up I think in the next standard because the next standard reads use available technology in the creative place. >> Oh, there we go. So I was going to say it's in this one also. >> Perfect.
>> Um Dr. Style, was the language evaluate for your writing effectively using a provided format? Was that >> I said a provided system? I think format works fine. >> System. Yeah. I I I think >> I like that. I think the answer
>> I think I personally think system is is better than my language format. Um if if you agree, Dr. Stone. Sure. >> All right. Again, we we've crafted a mass standard here. Uh so if there is no objections,
let's move on. Okay. Um final creative writing standard is use available technology in the creative process. Um I think we've been switching to digital tools. So use available digital tools in the creative process. Is that what we would prefer to do?
>> Have to say available. Right. Um, >> honestly, we were just trying to throw something in there for whatever might happen between now and then. We didn't want to name anything, so we just wanted to kind of leave it as open as possible.
>> Yeah. I think it also has to do with sort of district resources, right? We know some districts are very technologically integrated or some teachers are very technologically integrated, but open to feedback from the committee. We haven't done it. >> I think the avail Yeah, I think
available is implied here. >> Yeah, I don't think it's necessary either, but we're going to change technology to digital tools. Yep. Okay. Any questions about what's been created now?
No. Well, then we will approve it and move on to the next one. Okay. Um, then we have all we have all finished creative writing and now we're moving on to advanced creative writing. So, good job us. Um, advanced creative writing.
Students in advanced creative writing will focus on the imaginative aspects of writing fiction, poetry, and literary non-fiction. They will engage in lectures, discussions, workshops, and feedback sessions to improve their own own craft. And they will study exemplars of various genres, including drama, to explore possibilities and examine others creative endeavors. Within advanced creative writing, students will deepen
their abilities and understanding of effective techniques and genres for creative expression as well as craft extended written products that are revised and honed over longer periods of time. Um so if the first creative writing course is mostly about writing shorter things um and getting lots of
feedback on those shorter things and just a constant iterative process um this is more about uh crafting slightly longer works. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, so advanced creative writing one reads, "Study the structure of a two
character scene and create an original scene. >> Questions?" Nope. Accept and move on. >> Okay. Um, Advanced Creative Writing 2 reads, "Study the role of conflicts."
Um, and conflicts has a an s in in parenthesis for the characters and how writers use conflict to develop the theme. >> Comments, changes, hearing, none, we move on. >> Would it be better were because we're just saying the theme. Um, would it be
better to say study the role of conflict for characters, right? Just like speaking more generally, just study the role of conflict for characters and how writers use conflict to develop the theme. That way we're saying singular conflict in both places. I'd buy that.
Is that okay with everyone? All right. Hearing no objection, we have accepted your revision. Okay. Um, uh, ACW3 reads, "Create character motivation statements to give reason
behind a character's behaviors and actions in a given scene or throughout a story. >> Any questions, comments?" Hearing none, keep it. Move on. >> Okay. Um, creative writing for advanced
creative writing four reads, "Write a detailed biographical sketch for each character as part of a character study." >> Small thing going back to two, sorry. Um, we were kind of intentional about saying a theme in our other standard.
Should we put a there instead of the theme? >> Yeah, I think so. >> Thank you. Okay. Um, so I made that edit to two. Uh, back to four. Do we feel like that language of as part of a character study
is necessary? Um, I don't know if I if I love putting confines about when you would be making these detailed biographical sketches. They could certainly do it as part of a larger character study, but I could also see it being a more individual task. >> How does everybody else feel about that?
Dr. Now, are you teaching advanced creative writing? >> Oh, no. I am not. I I agree with Mr. Hillyard. >> Okay. So, we will accept your revision as
stated. And >> um so should it just read write detailed biographical sketches um for characters um because for each character makes the implication that you're doing it for every single character you ever develop which would be exhausting.
>> Right. Well said. Yes. >> Okay. So write detailed biographical sketches for characters. Are we are we good with that? Okay. Um, ACW5 reads, "Develop a saliloquy for each character in an
original scene or create an inner monologue for characters in a professionally written script. >> Same change you just suggested. That seems like a lot of saliloquis if we're going to write them for each character, but that's just me." >> Yeah.
Um uh yeah I agree um that seems exhaustive in a way and and I also I think we should largely try to issue like having these really strict requirements for what the assessments will look like um or the activities will look like in a
class um since these are standards. So develop saliloquis and inner monologues for characters. I mean that would be cutting a lot of words but I think it gets to the same >> well question though because in in our
other standards of course we have standards guides but electives we don't have those things. So, do we need some sort of language to guide um to guide what are essentially summitative assessments or no? I'm I
don't teach the class so I'm asking the question. >> Um I mean I would not think so. Um, in my experience, these creative writing courses tend to not they if these are the standards, I have found that they are often not always
followed. Um, um, so I think adding a little more freedom could likely result in in classes that better align to the standards rather than creating really prescriptive standards that that force the course to look in a particular way. banks. Perhaps you can correct my
thinking on this, but in a lot of these courses, they're developed by a uh a creative teacher that has a group of students that have particular interest and then they write the course up and then you guys approve it. So, it's not
used universally very around the state. It's usually created by a teacher for a group of students, but it's available for the rest of them. >> Yeah, these are actually entirely developed and implemented by the LEAs. They don't we don't approve them at the
state level or anything like that. The only thing we do at the state level is uh make sure that course codes are correct and so forth. So, uh I think as uh Mr. Hillyard was saying there's a lot of flexibility, you know, from LEA to LEA, from teacher to teacher, school to
school, etc. in terms of how these are implemented, taught, etc. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, um >> can I also add um I was just looking at the introduction and this sentence might
be um informative for some of us. It was for me. The following course topics are suggestions and ideas that can be built upon in the local context to ensure student interest and teacher expertise
in the genre. So it kind of allows for some flexibility. Um even in the introduction it says that it's a great point Dr. Stone and there is some guidance in some of the sections. I'm trying to remember I think is it mythology? I think that Tammy and
her crew added a bunch of options to sort of get the creative juices flowing without being restrictive. Oh, >> in genre. >> Yeah, genre literature as well has that that those list of options. >> And none of these elective courses are
being evaluated at the state level. Correct. >> Yeah, >> that's correct. Yeah. I I think also in my experience, it it promotes the uptake of elective courses when they have the freedom to kind of move and shift a
little bit. Um like uh when I was a student in high school, I was in a creative writing class because we were developing a literary journal for our school and and we were doing that in the class. So if there the more confines there are in the class, the less likely we would have been able to do that. Um,
so I think a little more freedom in the standards just opens up the possibility for for individual schools to do what they need to do in those classrooms. >> Okay. So, let's go back to the standard that we were working on and see if there's any suggested more more
suggested revisions having had that last discussion in the back of our heads and actually that's probably uh relevant to the rest of the elective uh classes that and standards that we review. Um, does uh ACW4
look okay to everybody the way it's been revised? I think it simplifies things and and does give them uh more uh freedom. So, if there's no uh further discussion,
let's keep that as revised and move on. >> Okay. Um ACW5 is the one we were taking a look at. I had proposed the possible language to develop siloquis and inner monologues for characters. Um, but if other folks
feel like that is taking too much away from the original standard, I I'm certainly open to other phrasing. Why is there uh a definition of a professionally written script?
I I think they're just intending to indicate a published script um versus their own original scripts. >> Is published a better word? Well, I my recommendation was to remove the language of professionally written
entirely. I >> I don't frankly see the point of of just doing saliloquis for characters in an original scene and just doing inner monologues for characters in professionally written scripts. Um that feels too prescriptive to me. >> And so we've just simplified it to what
you've written in number five. >> That is my proposed language, but I I don't want to railroad the conversation. So, if that's not how other folks feel, then I would certainly be open to it. >> Well, does anybody have any further comments or suggestions for this?
I hear none. So, they like your language, so we'll accept it as written. Thank you for that. >> Okay. Um ACW6 uh reads as a character as a study in character development write a letter from each character to the other
characters. Should it say to another character? Um or either letter should be plural or character should be singular because we're writing one letter to several other characters which seems odd. Um, does anyone have thoughts on which one
of those should should change? >> Dr. Stout, >> actually. >> I don't have opinion on the saliloquies conversation. Are you just looking for words smithing at this moment and not just an opinion?
Okay. Oh, and and we we're on we've moved past the saliloquy standard. We're on a as a study in character development, write a letter from each character to the other characters. So, should it just say re write write a letter from each character to another character
or I mean I feel like that's still >> Yeah, write a letter from each character to another character to practice character development. I mean, I think what they're trying to get at here is you essentially as a way
of getting you to think more critically about a character. You have them write to every other character in a text. Um, that way you're you're forcing yourself into into conversations that otherwise would not occur in a text. You're forcing you yourself to think critically about how that character would feel about every other character, not just
about the characters they interact with most frequently. So, I think that's what they're getting at here from having them write a letter to each of the other characters in a text. >> Letters now saying what you did. Yeah, I would pluralize letters. I think that
better says it because it's going to be multiple letters. >> Okay. Would it be write letters from a character to the other characters? Because I I don't want to have them write a letter write letters from each character to every other character. That would be like >> Oh, you just take out the each and the
right write letters from a character to other characters. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. I agree. As stated. >> And then you can add to practice character development or to demonstrate character development or something like
that. Probably more practice than demonstrate. Is is this um a skill or does this read more like an assignment? >> I I think I Yeah, I I agree with what you're saying, but I think that Dr. Stout had had uh recommended language.
So, she said uh and to to develop character or um what say that again Dr. >> Character development. >> Yes, that that is that is a standard. The other one is a is an assignment. Yes.
>> Okay. So, to practice character development, write letters from a character to other characters. >> Well, we wouldn't start with two. We just start with a verb to be consistent. So, we can say practice character development by
>> writing letters from a character to other characters. Or we could say write letters from a character to other characters to practice character development. I think either one is fine. >> Yeah. I >> think leaving it in the beginning
uh practicing character development is the most important part. I like the way >> I would I would agree. So practice character development by writing letters from a character to the other characters. >> Yes. Is that okay with you, M? pick out
the because the other characters mean all. So just other characters. >> Um yeah. Um I'm torn on that because I think generally how it typically manifest in a classroom is you do have a character or you do write letters to
each other character in the text or each of the major characters in a text at least. Um because the whole point of it is you're trying to force conversations that would not otherwise have been occurring just to think more critically about the character. Um
so but then the does does indicate all characters. So I don't know. I'm I'm torn on that. Can you two collaborate on the answer? >> I will tell you in the previous rendition of this it simply said to the other character and it looks like we put
characters in there because it might have more than one character. And um so either fix is fine. But on a side note in ACW5 do we want a saliloquy or multiple saliloquies? because you have a and a s
on saliloquy. >> Oh, thank you. >> Good, good call. Um I I think it should be plural. Do we agree monologues? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Thank you. Thank you for flagging that. >> Um yeah, and based off what you said, I
think I think Dr. Stout's right. Um let's get rid of the the um in ACW 6 and just say two other characters. >> All right. Thank you. break collaboration. We approve that and we'll move on.
>> Okay. Um ACW7 reads, "Compare and contrast the role of stage directions in work by playwrights such as Edward Albby and Eugene O'Neal. Write a set of stage directions for a two scene play mimicking the style of two different writers.
>> Do we need to mention >> I don't personally think we should shout out Edward Albi and Eugene O'Neal specifically. Um, I I think it makes sense to say compare and contrast the role of stage directions in works by multiple playwrights. Um,
and then write a set of stage directions. >> I totally agree, but I was kind of outvoted. >> Well, >> I mean, I I enjoy the work of of of Eugene O'Neal, but I I don't know if it needs a specific reference here.
>> Yeah, I agree. Take them out. because uh there's going to be some better playwrits in the next nine years. You never know. >> That's a that's a controversial statement to make in the in the play. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. >> Uh
>> let it be known that I've been controversial. >> All right. So, compare and contrast the role of stage directions in works by multiple playrs. write a set of stage directions for a two scene play mimicking the style of two different writers. >> Should should that be I mean we've been
pretty consistently using uh semicolons instead of periods within the uh standard. So should we join that by a semicolon? They seem to be interrelated to me. >> Yes. >> Let's see what it looks like. >> Is there a reason for specifying two
scene play? Like could they write one or three or five >> a multiple scene play? >> Yeah, I don't I don't think there's any necessity to specify two scene >> or at least two
multiple is at least two. Uh I mean does it even does it matter how many scenes it is for this particular task? >> I would think not. >> I would think not.
>> Uh should we just say for a scene or play? I don't know. I don't know that that's probably not right. Um, like I'm just thinking if I were teaching this, I would I would just have them write a scene with stage directions and then I would have them take that scene and switch up the stage directions to mimic another writer because I would not want
them to just be writing so many scenes. I'd want them to be just focusing on the stage direction part of it. But that's obviously just how I would do it, not how the standard should read, >> right? Take out for two scene play. uh
>> for a play. >> So stage a set of stage directions mimicking the style of two different writers. >> Yes. And there uh in lies flexibility
or should >> for the sake of clarity should it say write two versions of a set of stage directions making the style of two different writers. >> I don't know because I I guess if I'm envisioning like if I just say write a set of stage
directions but you have to mimic two writers while you're doing it. That seems like it would be this weird act of synthesis rather than let's do it once and then let's create another version of this exact same scene mimicking the stage directions of another writer.
>> I agree with you. It's a lot. It's It's clearer. Yes. >> Okay. So, write two versions of a set of stage directions mimicking the style of two different writers. >> Good. Any more questions about that?
Let's accept it and move on as revised. >> Okay. Um, ACW8 reads, "Analyze the role of set design and directions in a script. Evaluate two different directors decisions on the same play or script." >> Those are two different things, aren't
they? Um, I think it's similar to what we just did in the previous standard where it's like one is the more broad uh overarching understanding and then the second part is how they apply it. Um, so I think it would just be a matter of slapping a semicolon between those two
to make the connection a little clear. Director's decisions on what? >> Just staging, set design. Uh, >> I like staging and set design. Can we add that in there? because this director's decisions could
be on uh uh a lot of different things. >> I think I agree with Cher Kagus on that. I think it might be unclear otherwise. >> Okay. So, so it would read analyze the role of set
design and directions in a script semicolon. Evaluate two different actor or sorry director's decisions on staging and set design on the same play or scene. >> Yes. Any objection?
Okay, let's move on. >> Okay. Um, ACW9 reads, "Analyze the role of costume decisions and determine the appropriate amount of direction in a two scene script." Whoa, that seems that seems like two different things.
>> Yeah. I I don't see the point of having this stand this language in here about determining the appropriate amount of direction in a two scene script. That feels completely unrelated to the role of costume decisionm,
>> right? And that's all about direction. That's not about um creative writing. That's more like uh putting on a play. So, how would you rewrite this then?
>> I mean, I would probably just say analyze the role of costume decisions in a play. Um, or I guess in a costume decisions wouldn't necessarily be in the script. Um, >> would it make sense to combine eight and
nine? >> Yeah, it might. I mean, the one question is that directors don't always make don't always make costume decisions, but frankly, directors don't always make set design decisions either. So, I think we're kind of collapsing that all in. Um, and for the sake of like high school
theater directors are making those decisions. Um, yeah. I I honestly I think Miss Docky, I think that would be the best move. Um, analyze the role of
set design, costume decisions, and directions in a script. Evaluate two different directors decisions on staging, set design, and costume on the same player scene. >> I like that. And so we'll eliminate uh
one of the numbers and reumber from here on out. >> Well done. Analyze the role of set design, costume dire decisions, and directions in a script. Evaluate two different directors decisions on staging,
costumes, and set design. on the same player scene. Okay. Does do eight look all right to folks? ACW8 since I just word smith that.
I think set design should come first and then staging should be at the end actually just to maintain consistency. Yes, that looks good to me. Have any other recommendations on that one? All right, let's move on.
>> Okay, >> nine. >> What was that? >> Yeah. Well, we we we removed nine, so we're moving to ACW10, which will now become ACW9. Um, explore non-traditional and experimental writing forms. Um, I
propose we keep that the same. >> Agreed. Any objection? Nope. Let's move on. >> Okay. Um, ACW11 reads, "Develop a series of short form writing and explore applicable ways to publish or publicly
share this writing. Is this is this the developing a series of short form writing standard or is this the explore ways of publishing and publicly sharing writing standard? Those are different things. They are
develop a series of short form writing. What does that first part mean? I don't really know. Um, >> Miss Now, do you have a clue? >> I have an assumption. I don't have a
clue. I'm assuming it's short stories, uh, maybe even poems, short original works. I can tell you the previous rendition said develop a series of micro essays and we were not sure what micro essays
exactly meant. >> Well, that's unfortunate because micro essays are fun. But I think you you made the wording better. I just don't know if you need the word series. I think it's just develop short form writings perhaps.
>> Yeah. Oh, I I mean I think if the idea is like what Miss Nau was saying where it's a series of works that are related in some way, which I think is interesting. I mean, having students write multiple short stories that connect in some way to each other or having multiple poems that connect in
some way to each other. I mean, that's what book creation looks like for short form writing. Um, so that's a useful enough skill. Um, I just don't know if I don't know if a series of short form writing is really conveying that
clearly. Um, maybe develop a series of connected works and explore applicable ways to publish or publicly share this writing. >> Tammy, were they to be connected? Is that was that the original intent? Honestly, from the original standard, we
weren't sure because it just read develop a series of micro essays and explore journals and magazines that might publish them. So, we took theirs and went to the series of short form writing because that seemed to open up some
possibilities and instead of just looking at magazines and journals, any possible way to publish. We didn't say they had to be connected, but that surely is an option. >> So, the intent was for somebody to have
a a column that's regularly published that's got their writings in it, whether or not they're uh connected, but they're going to be regularly submitted to the publication. That could be about a number of
different things. Dar, are you nodding your head, Miss? Now, you agree with that? >> Uh, yes. I would assume so. I would assume that uh the goal of an advanced writing class would be in some way to
publish in some form or fashion some of those writings or a goal I should say. >> Whether or not the stories are related or connected doesn't matter. >> That's that's my understanding. But again, I do not teach the class.
>> Right. Right. >> And we do we even need to specify a series of writing? Should it just say develop writing, explore applicable ways to publish or publicly share this writing? >> Yes. >> The I don't know if we need to specify exactly what type of writing it is. If we're just >> I think that would be the larger goal.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And that would also make the standard I think a little more focused than it currently is where it seems to be about >> chaining works but also about trying to to publish them. >> Agreed.
So develop writing and explore applicable ways to publish or publicly share this writing. >> Yes. >> Okay. Applicable. Is that available? >> Yeah, I think I like available more.
Okay, let's make it available then. Because if it's applicable, it should be available, I suppose. Well, I don't know. Maybe that's optimistic. >> Okay. >> Develop writing and explore available ways to publish or publicly share this writing.
>> Well said. Okay. Okay. ACW12 reads, "Create a short public service announcement, PSA, in and share with relevant audiences."
I think that N is probably there on accident. >> Yes. >> Um and and should public service announcement be capitalized like that? So the letter should um but the not the
words have to be. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's what I was wondering. So create a short public service announcement PSA and share
and share it with relevant audiences. Okay. >> Yes. Does that language sound all right to everyone? >> No objections. >> I would just take out short. >> Uh there are different types. You can
have a long one if you want. Just say public service announcement. >> I agree. >> I agree. Yeah, I agree. >> I have a note about 10. I'm sorry to keep going back. I'm kind of a slow thinker. I like to marinate on things a
bit, but um I feel like the applicable word or applicable maybe appropriate um might have been important because I'm thinking about how like like a lot of times those places where you publish they have specific requirements like it
has to be in this type of theme or it needs to be um this length. I just remember in college having creative writing class and just going over those things and um being given some guidance of if you want to submit to this magazine, these are the guidelines you
need to keep in mind. Um but I don't I've never taught the class. So is that a conversation that you think is important in a high school creative writing class? Does available cover that or will that take away that conversation?
It's not available unless they follow the rules. >> Yeah, I I do I see what what Miss Docker is saying though. Um it does shift it because when it's available, it's just like find anywhere that might publish you and and give it a shot versus
um applicable ways of um what's the language? Applicable ways to publish or publicly share this writing. >> I understand. Is there a better word than applicable? I thought about that too, but I wanted to keep silent because to me that means you could self-publish.
Uh, which I don't think is the goal. And so, is it credible? >> Um, I don't know what's the opposite of self-publish to me. >> Yeah. I I wonder if this in Miss
Docker's reading it seemed to me like the ways weren't really weren't really the the venues themselves. Um it's not I guess it's not really explore venues to publish or publicly share this writing. It's it's ways which seems a little
broader. Um like the process including the venues, not just the venues themselves, but also the process to get to them. Is it endorsed? >> Uh, I don't know. I've kind of circled back around to applicable.
>> All right, I'll I'll go along with that. I I have no u love for either one. I'll go with it. >> All right. >> Are we Are we good with that applicable language?
>> Back with Yes, we're back with applicable. >> Okay. Um, ACW13 reads, "Revise poems from creative writing and focus on creating a compilation of various forms on a single theme."
H that those could be the same task, but they could be different. Um the original the previous rendition actually said focus uh see various forms
on a single topic. So >> did it have the language about revising poems from creative writing? >> Yes. >> Okay. If we have a revision standard in
advanced creative writing, I feel like we could just eliminate that language and focus instead on the the topic or theme. And I wonder if maybe we do say topic or theme. >> Yeah, we have a standard coming up that reads utilize it's the exact same
standard as as in creative writing one. Um utilize evaluation and revision skills. Now, we did edit that, so we likely will need to I think we're going to have to add a standard here about revision because of the edits we made to creative writing one. Um, but
I I don't think this is the place for revised poems for creative writing. I think it should just say uh focus on well, I don't know if it should say focus on creating a compilation of various forms on a single theme or topic or if it should just say create a compilation of various forms. single
theme. >> I like create. >> Yes. >> Yeah. The idea of focusing on but not creating it is is kind of a funny concept. Just >> Yes. >> Just think about it really hard. Don't do it. Just think about it.
>> I'm focused. >> Okay. Create a compilation of various forms on a single theme or topic. >> Well said. Okay, no objection. Let's move on. >> Okay. Um, ACW14
reads, "Engage in collaborative discussions to provide peer feedback to improve communication skills and reflect on one's own strengths and weaknesses as a writer. That reads a just a touch clunky to me.
This it's not speechless class. So it's not about improving communication skills. I mean this shouldn't be a standard here in creative writing. Correct. >> Yeah, I I I agree. Um should it just say engage in
collaborative discussions to provide peer feedback and reflect on one's own strengths and weaknesses as a writer? >> Bingo. I think that's what the point is. >> That's what I would want my students to get out there. Good. Anybody have any objection to
that? Miss >> Doc L needs an apostrophe. >> Yeah, I added that. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you. Let's move on. Okay. Um ACW
15 reads, "Develop fluency, logic, clarity, and creativity. We kept this exact same standard." Well, um it had the language with writing at the end in the um creative writing standard. So, we should add we should
either add with writing um to the end of the standard or we should delete it in the previous class. I think probably with writing should be added because I don't want I mean we're not asking them to develop general fluency and logic in life. We're asking
them to do it in writing. Yes, I agree. It was just inadvertently left off. I guess they had assumed that it was going to be assumed by everybody else. Okay. Uh so are we good on ACW15 adding
with writing there at the end? >> Okay. Um ACW16 reads, "Write for a variety of audiences." Um I think that sounds appropriate. >> Yes. Um, before we get too far, you went from 12 to 14.
>> Oh, yeah. I forgot about the reumbering. Thank you. >> Okay. So, so we're good to just simply change the the number on formerly 16 now 15. Uh,
right. for a variety of audiences. >> Yep. Okay. Um and then ACW 17 formerly reads, "Explore diverse modes and genres of writing." That sounds appropriate to me. >> Absolutely.
Any questions, comments? No. All right, keep it. >> Okay. Um, and then the next standard is the one that it's identical to the one we edited in the creative writing course. Um, where it says utilize evaluation and revision skills
throughout the writing process. I would recommend we just simply take the language of standard 12 from creative writing that we had revise writing effectively and then the language of standard 17 from creative writing. evaluate peer writing effectively using a provided system and turn this one
standard into two standards with those with that language. I'm agreeable. How about everybody else? I see nods. Okay, I think they accept your recommendation as revised.
That will take me just a second because I have to add a row to the spreadsheet. So bear with me for just a second. Oh, it has been added for me. Thank you. And then we're adding a new ACW
17 or 18 should read um evaluate peer writing effectively using a provided system. Okay. So, does that look appropriate to everyone? >> It does to me. Any questions, additions,
corrections? Nope. Let's move on. Um and then this language down here is the exact same language for the final standard as we had for the final standard of creative writing. So I propose we just simply use the same language again um of use digital tools
in the creative process rather than available technology. >> Hearing no objections we have just completed ACW. >> We have well done. So, we have done the creative
writing courses. >> What's next? >> Next up is a biggie. Um, we've got journalism, I believe, >> and we have a number of journalists in our midst. Yeah. So, this is this is a this is a
big chunk because we have four different journalism courses. Um, journalism one, two, three, and four. I would assuming we're going to try to check for some uh scaffolding within those courses.
>> I I think that would be wise. >> Even if the previous teacher didn't do that, if we want to see somebody duplicating this, we want to make sure that scaffolding is in there. >> Yeah. >> Texting back 67 standards in journalism.
>> Okay. So this is this is about 40% of our overall uh elective standards. All right. Well, let's get into >> sounds juicy to me. >> It is. It is a bit juicy. All right. So,
journalism one standard one reads demonstrates speaking, listening, and research skills which all facilitate interviewing and other oral communication activities. Um >> uh should that
>> should be that instead of which um or yeah demonstrate speaking? >> Yeah, I think two might be better. So demonstrate speaking, listening and research skills to facilitate interviewing and other oral communication activities.
oral communication. I don't >> Yeah. >> Period. >> Right. >> Okay. So, demonstrate speaking, listening, and research skills to facilitate interviewing and other oral
communication. >> Are we good on that? >> Yes. Okay. Um, journalism one standard two reads, "Model appropriate language skills, demeanor, and attire to cultivate success and good public relations."
>> This might be nitpicky, but good is bothering me. Positive or something? I don't Is good bothering anybody else or is that just me? like like effective maybe. >> Well, I mean public relation usually
conotes positivity. Um, we don't really talk about negative public relations unless we use the word negative. So, I don't know if you need good at all. >> I'm just not sure this is a learning standard at all. It's more of behavior.
I don't think it's learning. Um, I mean I I don't teach this course, so I can't speak to it, but >> just in general, they're just asking to to to manage attire and demeanor
and looking good. Uh, it's it's not a learning standard to me. I don't even know that it needs to be in here. >> I don't know. You might be surprised. Um, sometimes kids do need a little uh little help with those aspects. So,
>> sometimes these skills have to be taught. Now, >> how does that how did that look in the original iteration, Tammy? >> Um, demonstrate appropriate language skills, demeanor, and attire to cultivate success and good public
relations. Any other comment? No. Um, >> what were the proposed edits here? Just so I can reflect that. >> Patty, you know all about this. Trying to sell stuff to the government.
I can tell you a lot of people come into the workforce not knowing how to do those things. They're brilliant. But >> some discussion on good versus effective versus maybe na.
>> Okay. Um so do we have a a word we want to use in lie of good or do we want to just eliminate good? What what are we thinking there? Um can before we get to good can we talk about why the why right to cultivate
success in good public relations I can see the importance of discussing this or an interview the interview right so I don't know about to cultivate success success of
what right so I guess I just I think it needs some more specificity uh model appropriate language skills, demeanor, and attire uh to help facilitate a positive
interview or something like that is what I'm thinking. >> Well, it's not just an interview, it's a presentation. It's a briefing. It's amazing what >> Oh, well, you're right. I guess journalism could be um I like I like the words you're using,
Patty. Maybe you can help us with this. is what we're looking for professionalism to exhibit professionalism. I mean I I know it's specific to journalism though so maybe that's but I
I don't like the cultivate success either. There's no there's no end result there and I don't like good Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily about I don't think it's limited to professionalism. And I'll say that
because sometimes what you need to do is to model your whoever you're interviewing or speaking to to make them feel comfortable. And that might not look like what you think professionalism is. Does that make sense? >> That's what I was going to say. When I
was a reporter, sometimes I had to approach my subject wherever they were, and it may not be what the business world considers appropriate or professional. >> So, should we add the word audience in there? Like appropriate to audience?
>> That's really >> to to build rapport. Model appropriate language, skills, demeanor, and attire to build rapport. that >> I think that's what it's trying to say.
>> You buy that, Patty? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Okay. >> So, would it would it just end with build rapport or would it be build rapport with um with someone in particular or like with
the audience or something like that? >> With a variety of audiences. So it would be with the subject or audience. Subject if it's a person you're interviewing, audience if you're given a public statement.
>> Okay. Okay. Model appropriate language, skills, demeanor, and attire to build rapport with the subject or audience. >> Well done. Thank you for all your contributions. >> Okay. Um, journalism 3 reads, uh, model
appropriate interviewing techniques. >> Any changes? I hear none. Approve it. >> How do you model those? Shouldn't you demonstrate them or apply them or
or something? How about just use >> use them >> utilize just >> we I will say just for the sake of of hopefully um simplicity go going forward the next one two three four the next
four standards all talk about applying things um so maybe apply appropriate interviewing techniques >> but we could also we could also change the language of the future standards to to not be apply Yeah, if we want to create consistency,
>> I think use is is fine. We've used use so many times today. >> I also didn't love the language of model. Um, so should we change that as well in the the second standard or do we feel like it it works there?
Um, I think it we would need to use a a word other than use in number two because I don't think you would typically say like you would you would say use appropriate language skills, but you wouldn't say like use demeanor or I guess you could say use demeanor or use attire. It's not
as strange as it initially sounded to my ear. What do we think on standard two? I'm fine if we want to change it to use >> or demonstrate. You could demonstrate demeanor. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I'd say demonstrate. I'm good with that. >> Demonstrate attire though. >> You're right. Yeah. I guess that's model probably is the best thing for all of those different situations. Yeah.
>> So, are we sticking with model then? >> I think we are. Yeah. Because attire messed us up there. >> Are we going to use or are we going to demonstrate appropriate interviewing techniques? >> Think use is fine.
>> Okay. All right. Uh J14 reads, "Apply terms and expressions common to the industry to speaking, listening, and writing." We're talking about jargon and arg.
Yeah, I think so. Should it say in the industry instead of to the industry or is that just me not liking the double two? >> I'm liking in better. >> So I would say speaking, listening, and
content creation because just thinking 2030 it's maybe not just writing. I think these have to be broader than writing. Um, so that would be what what was the language instead of writing, Dr. Stout? >> Um, I think you could change writing to
content creation or you can add content creation. Speaking, listening, writing and content creation or speaking, listening and content creation. >> I like adding the content creation. I like to keep writing in there because we are talking about uh speaking,
reading, writing, listening and speaking. So yeah. >> Yeah. I like what you got written there, coach. Is everybody agreeable to what's been written? All right, let's move on.
>> Okay. Uh J15 reads, "Apply legal and ethical journalistic standards to all journalism activities." Hey, can you just drop apply legal and ethical journalistic standards? >> So, just drop to all journalism
activities and just keep the first half of the the sentence, >> right? >> I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> If outside of journalism class, they should just let legal ethical standards go. >> That's right. It's free rain out there.
That's right. All right, move on. All right. Um J16 reads, "Skillfully apply language usage skills and research techniques." >> Of course, skillfully. That's understood. >> Yeah. I don't I don't know why we would
say apply these other two things but then say skillfully apply here like the other two things they can do sloppily. >> Right. Do we need usage? >> I don't think so. >> So, it just read apply language skills
and research techniques. >> That's pretty broad. What kind what language skills are we talking about? >> I mean, I think it's it's taking the the knowledge that we have taught them in their core English classes, those
standards we've been working on, um, and applying them to the writing they're doing in this context. So then should we use should we say to something to writing to content creation to whatever because um we did
say earlier um apply language skills to build rapport with the subject or audience. So we specified for what purpose then? So should we specify for what purpose now to differentiate I'm think I'm thinking that may be a
typo. In the original that we had no notes on changing um it actually said language usage skills. Would that change anything? you know, we we saw language usage and then we thought about taking it out. But
the more we talk about it, I think that means more than just language skills. Language skills seems to be very broad. Um my question would be what is language usage skills then? So I don't know that I know what that
means. subjectverb agreement. >> That's where we were going. Back to the old gum stuff. The grammar, the usage, the mechanics. Isn't that kind of what language skills is though? I mean, our language standards mostly pertain to those concepts. And so, I would think if we said language skills, we're talking
about the skills they develop through the language standards for the most part. True. In my mind, in the other one, I'm more thinking, and this may just be the way I'm thinking. I'm thinking more on the way you utilize the words you're saying
to the people, that language skill, not the usage of it. And it may just be my misconception. >> No, I agree with you. And that's that's essentially what I was trying to communicate earlier as well. You said it better than I did.
>> In terms of intent, it does have a language standard to from the current active standards listed as a alignment for the standard. Okay. Did we just say apply appropriate usage skills? Is the language the confusion and not
the usage? I don't know. Probably not. something like grammar or conventions something like that. I still feel like usage is kind of confusing >> language conventions I go along with that.
>> So this is the standard at least as y'all have revised it that it recommends aligning to which of course this committee can make a different decision but command of conventions of academic English grammar and usage when writing or speaking is the cornerstone for CA2.
>> Mhm. conventions of academic. >> Oh, you did. Oh, you did revise this cornerstone. >> Did you? >> Um, can you go back over there to Can you go to the suggested change box?
>> Um, oh, back to the left. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. answer. Okay, >> that will that will talk about all the changes we made if we made any. Um, it doesn't seem we did. No, it doesn't seem like we made any edits to the question. >> But then I don't agree with the standard, I guess. Skillfully apply
journalistic Nope. Where where are we at? I heard the conversation on language usage. All right. Skillfully apply language usage skills and research techniques. Um, it's not always best to use conventional
language in journalism. Sometimes it is best to use unconventional language in journalism. So I would say I mean if we want to tie it to that standard I guess I would say >> apply
>> uh what was it con language conventions. >> Yeah you certainly don't have to. I think somebody just asked about intent and like is it connected to the language standards. I was just trying to get some context. But >> so I guess >> I would just add a when appropriate if
when appropriate and useful if we're trying to tie it to that language standard. Like yes, use it when appropriate and useful. Um but I wouldn't want that to be like a locked in thing because a lot of journalism is about figative language and saying
something new and different and phrasing it new and different. And I think in other places we've said things like apply appropriate conventions um to kind of allow for the possibility of those conventions being the kind of
classic academic English conventions or the conventions of other styles of writing um >> based upon the audience >> and situation. >> Right. So, how about determine appropriate
language conventions for audience and situation >> for a variety of audiences and situations. >> I don't disagree with you. I'm just looking forward to the I was wondering how this was going to play out as we get
into the other journalism standards and journalism for Oh, no, I lost my place. Uh oh. Uh it's in uh it's in row 96
column G um standard 7 along with the teacher administration evaluate the suitability of language usage skills and research techniques for publication. So, I'm wondering if the intent here is to scaffold up to
what I think we're trying to get to. We did try to scaffold all of them up. So let me try to let me try this again to see if we can coales near each other.
Um demonstrate appropriate language conventions for the audience and situation. I think that is a combination of kind of what three people have said.
>> Right. I like that. I think research techniques is >> Oh, and research techniques >> is totally out. That that should well we can maybe it needs to be someplace else. >> Uh I would say research techniques kind of goes with the legal and ethical
journalist standards. To me it feels like because your research technique should be part of your journalist standards. Doc Dr. St, could you I hate to do this, but could you reiterate the language um that you had recommended for uh standard six again?
>> Sure. So, I'm going to drop the research techniques for now. Let's talk about moving it to five, >> but I would say demonstrate >> Okay. appropriate language conventions for the audience and situation.
>> I like that. >> Will that be different from the next standard? I I hate to jump ahead, but I just I I want I kind of avoid us doing double work. Um skillfully apply journalistic writing style for various media. To me, we are talking about oral
language in this and then the other is is written. That's what I'm seeing. I don't know if that's correct or not in in six. I thought that was oral language. Before we get there, can we move to five
so we won't lose research techniques because I do think it's important um apply legal and ethical journalist journalistic standards um and research techniques. I don't know. I'm trying to just add that there somewhere.
I feel like I don't know that they're relate. >> You don't think they're related? Okay. No. >> Well, I was think about ethical research is what I was thinking. But I think research techniques is is all should be all by itself. Myself, I
think it should be a separate standard. >> Well, then we could swap seven, but I think seven is really talking about writing style. If we wanted to add some more about writing
style to six. >> No, I would. I I'd add another standard if we want to talk about research techniques. >> Yeah, it doesn't fit in that standard where it was. >> Uh I I'm sorry I'm jumping around so
much. I'm just trying to wrap my head around. Um J10 says, "Right, for an intended prescribed audience recognizing the importance of ethics and information gathering and reporting, which to me includes research techniques. definitely does.
>> We could, if we want to be specific, just add in a comma in there and add in research techniques just to be >> right. I wasn't proposing eliminating the rest of it. >> Yeah. No, I think so. Let's let's put research techniques into J10.
What do you think about that, Dr. Stout? fit it into J10 because they talked about information gathering and reporting. >> I think that >> I think that's a good suggestion. >> Where would the research techniques fit
grammatically? >> Well, we could just recognize the importance of >> in information gathering, research and reporting. I I would just drop the techniques and just say research. >> And I don't know that it's about recognizing, it's about using
uh ethical. >> Yeah. I right for an intended audience applying um ethical. I'm wondering if we separate these out
and the right for intended or prescribed audience going along with what Dr. Stout was initially talking about in um being flexible and and I guess style and conventions and such. Um cuz I I don't
know that those in my mind don't necessarily I mean I know it's all connected but I don't know that those are super well connected in 10. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Well, let let's just say are we okay
with six the way it's at right now? Do we approve six? demonstrate appropriate language conventions for the audience and situation. We good with that? >> I guess the question is, are we keeping seven? Because if we're not keeping seven, then
I think we need to motion to something about writing styles and six. >> I think we need to keep seven, but eliminate skillfully. I I think we could potentially kind of
combine the ideas of six, seven and the beginning of of 10. >> Combine what did you say, Miss Dockery? >> Um, am I? Oh. Oh. So, I haven't been teaching this semester. So, I I don't even know what the six seven thing
means. So, I haven't heard it yet. I haven't had that joy. >> It's kind of postmodern. It kind of means everything and nothing at the same time. >> Yeah. I've been told multiple times by kids I I you can't explain it. You just you just got to know it. I'm like okay well
>> guess I just won't say it. >> What was your recommendation for 67 in the first part of 10? >> Okay. I don't have anything really well uh devised, but I'm wondering if we
um say something like demonstrate uh appropriate language conventions or maybe uh uh conventions. Oh, shoot. Okay. Um basically combining
six, seven, and 10 in the first part of 10. Um but Write for an intended prescribed audience. Maybe comma demonstrating appropriate language conventions for the audience and situation.
Maybe leave seven on its own. Actually, does that I just feel like we're kind of trying to hit the same thing in three different standards at this point. Well, language conventions is one thing.
I think you've said that well in six. I'd say leave it alone and let's either create another standard or pull out relevant pieces and combine them for the next standard. >> Okay. So, here's an idea.
If six is talking about conventions, could seven talk about innovation? uh exp I don't want to say experiment with but I'm going to start with experiment with experiment experiment with uh
innovative techniques to develop your unique writing style is something I'm thinking about or >> uh are they when it says various media are they saying that you're changing your writing style for each of the media
>> you have to. Yeah, you we already do. >> So I can't write on social media like I would in a press release, >> right? So we we need to keep that in there, I think. Um, apply journalistic writing style for
variety of media. That's a that's a standard. They have to change it. They have to determine what's appropriate for the media. Then do we just maybe create a whole new standard for like she said the innovation maybe not not get rid of
seven but make a new standard. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm good with that. I'd say put seven and just say apply a journalistic writing style for uh various media. >> Okay. Um, do we want to mirror the
language from from six and say demonstrate uh an appropriate journalistic writing style? >> Yes. >> The audience and situation. >> That's exactly what we wanted. That's exactly what we want to say.
Yes. Thank you. >> So I don't think it's for audience and situation. I do think it's for various medias. I think that's a key difference. >> Yeah. Right. He just wanted to to use the front part of it. >> He's got to take it out now.
>> It's just uh copy and paste. And he forgot to eliminate the other stuff yet. >> Yeah, I'm working on it. >> He's in the process. >> Okay. um demonstrate an appropriate journalistic writing style for various media.
>> Yes, that's well said. >> I think that's what what Dr. Stout said was absolutely necessary. >> Is should it say should it say demonstrate appropriate
journalistic writing styles since we're being plural with media? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. I'm wondering would it would be beneficial to add and audiences there as well because even within different
media you're going to have different audiences within those media. >> I'm good with that. Are you good with that revision Dr. Stout now and Patty
talking to the government? Yes. >> Okay. >> Are we good on seven then? >> I'm good with seven. >> Yes. And and I'd say right now we've uh
I hate to uh interrupt the train, but I can see the hunger building in in the standards review committee. So I think it's time for a we supper break. Does
everybody agree with that? >> Well, I think we only have five more for this level. Do we think they're going to be hard? Not is going to motivate us to finish this. >> We we do have more than five because we
have not done eight nine and our 10 we we were still very much in progress with. So we really have one two three four five six seven eight n I withdraw my comment. >> All right. I think it's actually good and this might give us time to loosen up
our brains and and see if we could uh figure out some more. I think we need to pursue the uh the creative creativity end of this that Dr. Stout was talking about. Make sure we don't uh forget about that. Uh but it's now 6:32
and I would uh declare a a 25minut break which would put us I mean I'm so 6:32 uh Eastern. It's 5:32 central. Uh 25 minutes would put us back in class at
5:57 central time. Is that enough? All right. No indigestion now. Just eat carefully. If you need to bring it back to the table here, uh that's fine. All right. We'll see you all in 25 minutes.
6:58 Eastern, >> 558 Central. >> So, uh, where did we leave off? We left off with, uh, uh, we're in row
48. U,, we were looking at, uh, journalism one, standard 8. Okay. Um, I think there had also been some desire expressed to potentially add a standard. Um, I think Dr. Stout had proposed some language to potentially add a standard so we could also have a
conversation about that. >> All right, let's uh let it let's go with standard 8 right now and wait for Dr. Stout to bring up her recommended additional standard.
Uh, does eight look good as it's printed right now? >> Okay. Uh, I can read it for everyone. Um, it reads, "Recognize the difference between fact, opinion, and bias and appropriate use in media production. >> I
don't know if I love that wording." No, I know the first part, but we have to stick it in media production somehow and its effects on appropriate use in media production.
Um could be uh do we have our more journalism ccentric folks with us right now to kind of wade into these waters?
>> Katherine's with us. We're on number eight right now. Katherine recognize the difference between fact opinion and bias. We agree with that. But and appropriate use in media production just is kind of clumsy.
We know what they're trying to say, but I don't know that it's wordsmith correctly. So I think it would be recognize the difference between fact, opinion, and bias and how they are used
to affect an audience. I'm going back to when we were talking about affect an audience and some of our earlier writing standards. Are they used to affect an audience or? >> Yeah, I would say they are.
>> Sorry, I'm wondering if this is making a nod to like editorials perhaps. >> Yeah, that's what I was getting. Editorials, opeds, columns. Uh so recognize the difference between
fact, opinion and bias. Are those is it is it the student using it in production or the student recognizing it in others as they read and listen?
>> I would think both. >> Which one? I would think that they are probably needing this skill both in in reading or watching um but as well when like um I mean
students in journalism classes write opinion pieces and editorials. Um, so I'm wondering if we have some kind of maybe nod to I don't know if this is the right word in journalism, but like uh genres or forms within
journalism if that makes it clear. >> Is it recognize the difference between fact, opinion, and bias and use them appropriately in media production? Is is that what we're gesturing at or
>> I um I would always say content creation rather than media production. I think this is a good place for eG. Uh you might say when is it appropriate to be biased? Well, I hope my sports writers for the Memphis Tigers is biased, right? Like there are some times
where you're supposed to show the hometown bias or obviously columnists. So maybe I would include a eg list like sports writing columnist oped or something like that to kind of add some clarity.
>> I like that. >> Mr. Zachary, does that make it clear to you when you're recruited to teach this class? >> Yeah, I believe so. >> That's helpful. So, >> and I I I'm wondering if we should make
the distinction between whether it is just recognizing it in what they're reading and watching or if it's that and in their own creation or just creation. So, I don't know if it's
clear in the way it's currently written. >> I like the way that you're thinking of it coming and going. Yeah, I think this would likely be a semicolon situation. Maybe
recognize the difference between fact, opinion, and bias. Semicolon and then get into that use language. I don't know exactly how that would be phrased, but that that to me would make the most sense.
>> Yes, I like that. And then this is this is inconsequential ultimately but am I right in here in thinking that I've always thought that between suggest that you're distinguishing between two things there should be between this and that um and
this is three so should that be among >> I believe it should be among I agree with that sir. Yes sir. Okay. So, recognize the difference among fact, opinion, and bias. And when we didn't like the language
media production, I think Dr. St. You said content creation. >> Yeah. But I'll keep with uh kind of what we said before, writing and content creation to >> Okay. >> Show both. >> What did Say that again, please. >> I said writing and content creation to
kind of show both. Yeah. >> Okay. So I I feel like this is definitely still a work in progress, but what I've got right now is recognize the difference among fact, opinion, and bias. Uh use them appropriately in writing and content creation. >> I think that's superb to what we were
starting with. >> We adding in the EG as suggested by Dr. Stout. >> Where would that EG go >> at the end? I think >> um
okay so it would be after creation and then what would the language of that eg be >> miss? Um I think Dr. Stout's the expert here. >> You gave three examples, didn't you?
>> Yeah, I I don't know. She just she probably has a broader understanding of this than I do. So, she might I'm thinking about the content creation piece, too. If if we're going to say content creation, she might have ideas of how to expand that beyond. I I just gave written examples for the most part.
>> I've heard sports writing, op-ed, >> uh, columns, and test. Do you miss Bear? Do you consider testimonials part of journalism? I don't know if she's here yet,
>> Miss Now. >> Yeah, I'm here. Um, >> I'm here. >> The question was, do you consider testimonials part of journalism? >> Yeah, I heard that. Um, I guess it could be.
>> I'm trying to get at um Oh, should we say podcast? Is is podcast going to be dated by 2030? [Laughter] I'm trying to make some reference to some kind of digital content.
And I think that's a clear example of like when you use like opinion and bias. Podcasters are not supposed to be um podcasters are are not supposed to be um objective. It's okay to have an opinion
in podcasts. >> That's why they podcast because they're not paying anybody and nobody's paying them. >> Oh, okay. Patty, >> they're getting paid.
>> Okay. So, I've got sports writing, podcasts, and there was something I think did we say columns, editorials. What what would the was the language >> opeds? >> Opeds. Do we want to say opeds or do we want to to write out like edit opinion editorials?
>> Probably should write it out. >> I think so. >> Okay. So, what I've got right now is recognize the difference among fact uh opinion and bias. Use them appropriately in writing and content creation. Eg. sports writing podcasts, opinion
editorials. >> Again, a superb standard from what we started out with. Very clear to both students and teachers. >> Okay. So, are we are we good there on that one? >> Yes.
>> Okay. Um J19 reads, "Use technological resources as needed to compose, edit, and revise work for publication." Um would this be an instance where you'd want to say digital tools? >> I thought we used that already. Was it
or was it someplace else? >> It was a different standard, >> different course. >> Yeah, that was back on creative >> course. Okay. All right. Just to show you how old the other standards were, the original said, "Use
computers if available." [Laughter] >> Oh goodness. >> Just thinking about that. Do we want to change podcast to digital commentary?
I'm I'm trying not to box us in and make us sound like eight track over here. >> Probably. So, >> okay. So digital commentary was the language. >> Yeah, that's good. Okay,
>> for my bad. Um, the one we were just working on. Sorry, I keep losing my place. Okay, the the nine. I I I wonder if we can add some language in here that makes a nod to
uh not just writing but things like you know broadcast video creation, content creation. Uh so I mean compose to me feels more like like writing. So I wonder if we say create or maybe some other verb that's a
little bit more inclusive of a variety of types. >> Good commentary. How can we fit that in there? develop maybe rather than compose. Thoughts on that? >> I think develop opens the door. Does that satisfy your
>> We should just say create. I think that's the word that we're moving towards. I would just say create rather than oppose. Compose. >> Okay. >> Okay. Is that all right with you, Miss Dockery? Okay,
good. >> Okay. Um, then we're we're back to this uh standard 10 that we were looking at earlier. Um, which reads, well, the original version read write for an intended prescribed audience recognizing the importance of ethics in information
gathering and reporting. Um, we had we had added research to the list. Um so it reads recognizing the importance of ethics in information gathering research and reporting. What's the ethics and research? >> Oh,
there are a lot. >> Okay. >> Um I'm wondering too if we make a stronger verb instead of recognize um like use ethics. Um, and then get rid of that
beginning part because I think we now have covered that in the in another standard. Uh, seven. >> I like that. Use is better than recognize the importance of.
>> Okay. So we would be So if I'm hearing this right, Mr. Dockery, we would be eliminating the language about writing for intended or prescribed audience. It would just start with use. >> If everybody's okay with that, I guess my only thought about my own suggestion
that I just made is if this is journalism one, I'm wondering if this builds in journalism 2 to be more of like a use verb where maybe in journalism one you're being taught about ethics. Um, I'm looking right now. Um, it looks
like the language stays basically the same um until you get to journalism 4. >> So, how about this? Can you scroll back up? Um, not like I don't have my own copy, but I'm looking at your screen.
Um, write for an intended prescribed audience. Research, research, report and gather information ethically or gather information, research and report ethically.
I was drafting something similar. Um I was I had just reversed the clauses. I had said ethically gather research and report um and then semicolon
right for an intended prescribed audience. So almost the same but >> I I think I I I think that language is good. I think we would probably want to put gather information, research, and report ethically first because to me that feels like like what Miss Dockery
was saying, we've kind of introduced the concept of writing for an intended audience elsewhere um when thinking about like demonstrating appropriate language conventions for an audience, demonstrating appropriate journalistic writing styles for audiences. So, this is not the newest concept here and I don't think it's the central concept. I
think the the central concept seems to be ethical research and information gathering. Well, and to that end, I wondered if we even needed the that part, writing for an intended prescribed audience because really >> we do just for that reason. >> To me, those seem like very different
things. Yeah. >> Uh writing for an audience and then gathering information, research, uh researching and reporting ethically. >> Absolutely. So, how would the new one look then? We heard some excellent words come out.
I I don't know if I 100% captured it because this feels kind of brief and I felt like it wasn't as brief, but what I've got is gather information, research, and report ethically. >> That's what I said. Miss Now, do you want to switch the order? Well, I guess we have to start with the verb. So, I
think that's fine. Uh, this might be nitpick nitpicky, but I feel like my brain likes the uh the phrase with two words in it better at the end. So, research, report,
comma, and gather information ethically is am I being nitpicky or you >> are correct typically, but I'm putting them in sequential order. So, you would gather information first, research, and then report. So is that sequence of what's that
chronological? I don't know. But you see what I'm saying? >> Yes. >> Are we worried that are we worried that the ethically word the is only modifying report at the end or is everyone going to understand that it
applies to all three? I think so. Plus, this is a second standard where we've talked about ethics. So, we had like a general ethics standard, too. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I think that's good. >> Okay, >> everybody agree with it as as stated?
Okay, let's move on. >> Okay. Uh J111 reads, "Demonstrate editing and revision techniques to produce work uh suitable for publication production. Are we sticking with content there?
Produce content. >> I I like that better, >> Dr. Stout. >> Yeah, I think it's fine. I think either either case works, but for consistency, we can say content. >> Yeah, content. I think we should probably say publication andor production, right? Instead of just
publication slashproduction. We haven't really been doing slashes like this. >> Okay. >> All right. So, change work to content and publication and or production. >> So, demonstrating demonstrate editing
and revision techniques to produce content suitable for publication and or production. >> Okay. Is that suitable for everybody? All right. Move on. Okay. Um J12 reads, "Exhibit a working knowledge for roles and procedures of
management and production of various media. >> I don't like the I don't like the first part of that. >> Exhibit a working knowledge." >> It doesn't say much. would demonstrate understanding of be
more in line with other things we've written. >> Yes. >> The following the subsequent standard says demonstrate knowledge of >> knowledge of understanding of whichever but
>> demonstrate knowledge of roles and productions. >> Yes. Ro roles and procedures of management. So demonstrate knowledge of management roles and procedures procedures of manage procedures of
management and production. I think it needs to be demonstrate knowledge of management. roles and procedures for the production of various media.
>> I'm thinking rules, management procedures, comma, and production. >> Okay, maybe that's what it is. >> It is roles then. All the folks involved in production of
media, who's doing what, script writers, editors. >> Well, I think it's that by the time this comes out, so much of this is becoming a oneman show. But you're right.
>> Not for the best of the best. But on a daily basis, it's a lot of it's becoming a oneman show, one person show. >> Thank you. >> What was the language we we settled on? >> Demonstrate knowledge of roles,
management procedures, comma, and production of various media. >> So I guess production techniques of various media. I like that even better. Almost done drafting that. Okay.
Demonstrate knowledge of roles management procedures and production techniques of various media. I think someone had something to add. >> I'm sorry. I'm still hung up on roles. Roles because I'm roles of various media. I just don't understand. I mean, I I
understand what Dr. S of course is saying. Um, but the way it's worded, I'm still struggling with positions, staff positions. Is that what you're thinking? Is that
more is that clear? >> I think so. I think I think my biggest problem is with the reposition. >> Oh, okay. So within maybe within various media roles within various media
maybe demonstrate knowledge of roles, management procedures and production techniques within various media. >> I don't know if that clears anything up. >> I think that's better. >> Does that satisfy you Dr. Now?
I mean, I'll defer it to everybody else, but >> Well, I think within is better than of >> that. Is that good? The way you guys see it, >> it's good. >> All right. I see I I see nods saying yes. So, let's move on.
>> Okay. Um J113 reads, "Demonstrate knowledge of business management, including advertising, distribution, andor accounting procedures." Um, if we keep the wording the same, I think we should have a comma after management.
What's that got to do with journalism? >> I mean, it's nice to know, but is that gerine to the course? So most of these are like taken as a studentr run newspaper. That's kind of the traditional model. They would ask
people in the community to buy ads for their studentr run newspaper like the local bakery or the senior parents buy an ad to wish your senior. So I think it's trying to speak to that. And we had one person in our EAT group who actually
taught all four of these. And he said that this was um something that he had to get his people to do. In our in my building, our um main journalistic thing is the yearbook and they have to go sell advertising.
>> Okay, understood. >> Okay. Anybody have any problems with the way this is worded? Why is it andor accounting procedures? >> So I think it should be I'm sorry. I think it should be business operations instead of business management. Demonstrate knowledge of business
operations including advertising, distribution and accounting procedures. I agree. Not andor. >> Yeah, >> I would agree with that wording. >> Okay. So, I've got demonstrate knowledge
of business operations including advertising, distribution, and accounting procedures. >> Good. Next. >> Okay. Uh J14 reads, "Understand." >> I add one more word. Advertising
promotion. I would add promotion. >> You got to promote your content. >> Good. Is that is advertising is advertising promotion one one phrase or is it advertising? Yeah. Make a note. I'm just adding a new word. >> Got it. Okay. So, including advertising,
promotion, distribution, and accounting procedures. >> Good. Okay. So, are we good to move on to 14 now? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, understand and utilize standard principles of related areas to enhance visual appeal.
>> What are related areas? >> I don't know. >> I don't either. >> What does it say in the original iteration, Tammy? I bet that's a reference to graphic design and um
that's my thought. And then layout. I bet that's kind of like a nod to graphic design and layout. >> I think so. >> Graphic design is the next one is 15. Um I cannot answer exactly what 14 is
supposed to be for. And um >> is it bookkeeping? >> Because I really don't know. For J113, I have bookkeeping. I'm not sure if y'all did add a standard though, right? So, would it be 14? Dr. Stout,
>> it is the one. >> Yes, the utilize standard principles of related areas. >> Here's also something related to graphic design. To your point, Dr. Stout, let's see. >> It looks like 14 is contained in 15.
Um, yeah. I'm wondering if 14 is supposed to be just uh like I don't know when I did newspaper we we learned things about I don't know I can't remember all the terminology but when
we're doing like a layout there were some design principles with within that that maybe is different from visual effects. I'm wondering if that's what it's about like design principles. Well, I wondered
about that, but then I saw Jay 16. >> I will tell you that this is a previous rendition. It was untouched by us. And I have no notes on what the gentleman that actually taught this said. So,
I have no real answers for you. >> I I think 14 and 15 talk to the same thing. Dr. Stout, how else can you en enhance visual appeal >> layout? >> And that's contained in the next one in
17. >> Well, then I don't know. Look, at first I said graphic design, you said that's the next one. Now I said like I have no idea then. I have newspaper. >> Maybe we can combine 16 17 and eliminate the other one.
Yeah. I don't know. Visual appeal. I'm thinking like Tik Toks and I don't know some sort of like something catchy. I'm good with whatever yall decide. >> Yeah. I wonder if maybe I'm not sure if this was the intention, but I think what Miss Summers is saying, I'm wondering if
we get out like uh for example, my husband actually met a newspaper and he did uh all the video stuff and that's what he does now for a living. But I'm wondering if we could maybe there bear have something about multimedia
design which would include things like Tik Tok broadcast documentary type videos etc. So visual appeal goes further than graphic design and layout
if you're talking about Tik Tok etc. Is there any chance I probably not that standard principles of related areas is some sort of like domain specific vocabulary and that's why it doesn't make any sense to us. I don't I
don't know this world, so I I can't say. >> I don't think so. >> I've taught I've actually taught newspaper to high school. Like I taught a newspaper course for a year and no is not >> not in my world. >> Okay. I was wondering if
if it might apply to I don't know something like I don't know again this is not my domain but footage you know literally visual elements that are not encompassed within
necessarily graphic design or layout. So that kind of goes to what Miss Dockery was saying. I think we don't know what it means. Can we say what we want it to mean? And I kind of like the addition of adding multimedia.
So, identify uh multimedia elements that enhance visual appeal. >> I like that. >> It's not necessarily addressed in the other two standards.
>> Identify and use. >> Yeah, identify and use. I I didn't know if use was too sophisticated, but these kids are what do they call them? Digital natives, so it's not for them, I guess. >> So, use >> identify and use.
>> Okay. Identify and use multimedia. What was the language? Sorry. >> Elements. >> Multimedia elements >> to enhance visual appeal or to enhance appeal. Is graphic design a multi- media element
>> in today's world? Yes. >> Is layout a a multimedia element? >> In today's world, yes. >> Okay. So, we can incorporate 15 and 16 then in that one that you just modified.
So, we have three we've folded into one. So then I would just add identify and use multimedia evidence elements, excuse me, to enhance visual appeal, graphic design and layout.
>> You want graphic EG graphic design and layout. Do you want them as an EG? >> I guess so. Yeah, you're right. It's that's all part of visual appeal. I see what you're saying now. Yeah, you're right. Would that eg be are are graphic design and layout examples of multimedia
elements or are they examples of visual appeal? >> Visual appeal. >> Okay. >> But would we want >> specifically? >> What was that? I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. I was just saying I like we wouldn't I I wouldn't want to make those
optional. I don't think we do want all of those. So we could say should we say specifically instead you know to enhance visual appeal specifically graphic design etc. >> Yeah and layout >> I like that.
>> Do you think we should also include that bit about a consistent style? just from my own newspaper experience, I remember that being important where we had kind of picked, you know, font size, font uh
I guess type, etc. Um for the purpose of having a a cohesive uh publication. >> Yeah. So you would and to adhere to a what were we saying? uh provided brand
is um I think style is fine but usually we say brand management or brand but I think style works too. I would go with the language of provided. I think that's what we've been using. >> Okay. So identify and use multime
multimedia elements to proide a consistent style and enhance visual appeal. to adhere to a provided style. >> I think the end is which adhere to a
which adhere to a style. Um, I know we don't like and or, but I'm wondering if we need an and or or here just because not everything would be provided because I think if you just told kids exactly what to do in a video or a graphic design element, then you're
taking out the creativity >> in kindergarten, which might be a little too young for sort of a ninth grade group, assuming they start in nth grade, like with prompting and support, with support with guidance. >> Uh so the lang I mean the language we're mimicking was from the 16 standard which
read incorporate a consistent style. Um so you know I guess we could say to and we just add that incorporating consistent style at the end of that sentence >> or maybe when appropriate. appropriate. That's what I was just going to say. Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. So, to enhance visual appeal, specifically graphic design layout, and to what was the language? I'm sorry, my brain is fried >> to adhere to a provided style when
appropriate. Is that >> to a >> should it be and instead of two? I don't know that we >> and and adhere. Yeah. And adhere to a provided style when appropriate. Yeah.
>> Provided >> is is equivalent to consistent. >> I I kind of prefer the language of consistent just because that encapsulates both provided and also a self-created style. But I'm I don't this is not my domain. So I I don't want to
to feel >> I I agree with you for that reason. Yes. >> Well, I like provided because >> and why >> uh each organization and each type of
media has a different style. So there is AP style um that is like standard for writing and then in my organization we have a voice style and they give you these things so it's part of their brand. Um so I think
it's the same thing we were talking about when we said footnoting like are they doing Chicago or MLA or they just doing something the teacher provided. We said provided to leave it kind of open-ended. The only push back I would have for that is I'm going back to my
own experience, but um we ended up when we had our little I guess editor staff, we created our own style year to year as the students and that was I think a lot of fun and valuable being able to create your own where we decided what colors,
what fonts, all of that. >> Okay. provided or consistent style. >> Did you do provide or developed? >> Can we just adhere to the style whether it's provided or developed or whatever >> to adhere to the appropriate style?
to adhere to a style when appropriate. >> Yeah, I think a style >> a style when appropriate. >> Yeah. >> Also the specifically graphic design layout. Uh it looks a little funny to me. What
about and and should we also uh incorporate design procedures in that and make it a list? >> So specifically graphic design layout >> graphic design design procedures and layout. >> Okay.
Um I will just say and we can obviously change this um elsewhere because we haven't used um the word and with eg. We have not used the word and with specifically either since they're kind of analogs to each other. Um I actually had this something that I had flagged
for myself when I go back through. I I don't love our decision to use specifically. Um I think given we use the the shortened eg for examples. I think something else other than specifically would ideally be better. I know we had a conversation about this in person, but I I think I wonder if maybe
we use IE instead of specifically. Um I know that we had I know that it just it does result in these we specifically being a full word does result in these weirdly it makes specifically look like it's an item
within the list sometimes and it just reads a little clunkily. Um, >> I hear you on that, but our our conversation focused on clarifying for teachers. It it's and that was in regards to standards and what was
absolutely required for them to teach and what wasn't. So, I would really hate to eliminate the word specifically because I think it would reduce the clarity for teachers. >> Okay. >> Um, in this case, I mean, you know, I I'll defer to the to to the journalism
experts here. Um but in the other standards I I I I personally really liked our our addition or our revision of specifically I for the teacher sake. >> Okay we have does are there any other
suggested revisions to JL14? >> Yes. Um, should we include um an element in that list about
um video as well? My last high school that I worked at and my current district, they're I think they both changed their names like journalism and broadcast and I feel like video was going to become more and more pertinent. So, I'm
a little hesitant about leaving that out, but I like to hear thoughts about about that. So, yes, I hear you. However, if we're saying specifically, then that means they would be required to do video
versus if we said eg, then that's not required. Does that make sense? Is there some equivalent words that you can use that would fit in that listing?
Is it video design? What words would you use that are equivalent to graphic design, design procedures, layout, and >> it would be video production would be the phrase >> and video production.
But then we can't use specifically because video production is a alternative when wanted. That's then then it's an EG.
Do you have any other way to include it? I'm okay with the EG. It EG does not bother me in this case because what we're doing is saying make it look good and here is how here are some ways you
can. >> I'm okay with that. Miss Dockery, are you okay with that? I'm okay with that. But um I also want to make sure that as someone who hasn't taught this
and to make sure I'm not overreaching or going to cause any problems by with that change. So, can we get rid of specifically if we put to include enhance visual appeal to
comma to include things would that help? And then you can add video or whatever on the end because it wouldn't be all inclusive. I don't know. >> Have we used including? Well, first of
all, since this list is getting long, we need to move to adhere to a style when appropriate to the beginning. Uh, identify and use multi elements to adhere to a style when appropriate and
and whatever this list is. Have we used including? Is that a phrasing we've used? >> We have tried to avoid it um because we've tried to stick to either EG or specifically. So, let's let's be consistent. I say EG is about the best way we can
get this in. There it is. Right there. And then you got to put in your style piece at the end. >> I I moved the style to the beginning. Um, per Dr. Stout's recommendation.
Not and to enhance or is it to enhance? Oh, and to enhance. Okay. All right. Are we okay with this standard or do we feel it still needs workshopping? I would prefer to say which adhere to a
style. >> Well, that that just makes it a little more complicated with the when appropriate language. >> Yeah. Do we need the when appropriate? I mean, the opposite would be when inappropriate.
I don't think we need when appropriate. I think I personally feel like when appropriate is important so that we allow students to be creative within design as well because there's some
aspects in these things where such as the layout where you're going to have a specific style that's been decided that you use but other times where you're not sticking to something exactly or things that are standalone.
Um, >> but if they're still adhering to a style, are they not? >> If you're if you're integrating all these multiple elements, you're looking for them to adhere to a particular style, whether it's a student generated
or teacher generated or if it changes if it changes weekly, they're still adhering to a style. I I see what you're saying, Cher Canus. I mean, we're we're saying to adhere to a style, not not one style, not the
style, but just a style. >> Yeah. Right. So, is the proposal to then remove the language about when appropriate? >> I think so. Miss Dockery, will you um
acquies or are are you going to stick it to us? That's up to you. >> I mean, I'm not going to die on the hill, but but I I think my I I'm don't think I've been persuaded, but I'm also like if the rest of the committee feels
that this to to keep or to change the language, then you know that's >> appears. It's understandable and you can you can use any style you want to, but they've got to be adhering to a style.
Are we good with that? Yay. Okay. Nobody's putting thumbs down yet. All right. So let's move on. We're good with that. >> Okay. So So is our J114 identify and use multimedia elements to adhere to a style
and to enhance visual appeal. Eg graphic design design procedures >> not to adhere to a style which adhere to a style. That's that was my suggestion. You're you're not using them just to adhere to a style. It's which adhere to
a style. >> So that adhere to a style. Is that what we're saying? Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. >> Okay. So, identify and use multimedia elements that adhere to a style and to enhance.
>> So, you would have to take out the two. >> That would be Yeah, the >> and just make it enhance. >> Um, well, I guess I think we would just get rid of the or would we get rid of the and or the two? Identify and >> I'd get rid of two.
Um, but it then all you're saying is enhance visual appeal. You're not even talking about multimedia elements anymore because identify and use the multimedia elements. That's the object of the first verb. And then if you say and enhance visual appeal, that is just an entirely separate clause there.
>> You're using the multi- media elements to enhance visual appeal. >> Yeah. Then you need the word then you need to delete the word and and keep two. Okay. >> If if that's what we're using to enhance visual appeal, if we're using the antid
multimedia elements that we need to >> that's what we're doing. >> Okay. I can agree to that is every is that everybody good with that now or reasonably good acceptable? >> All right, let's move on. >> So is my understanding correct that by
doing this we have removed standards 15 and 16? I believe so. Yes. >> Okay. If that's the case, then we have completed journalism one. >> Yay. >> Okay. Um, journalism 2 is very closely
aligned to for journalism one. So, we will need to be very attentive to the language of journalism one that we adopted since we changed every single standard in journalism one. Um, we'll need to just be very attentive to that as we um >> Hey, thank you for pointing that out.
>> I'm happy to do dual screens for both of them. Are y'all seeing it when I pull up both of the screens left and right on the Microsoft Edge? Okay, cool. We can do that so y'all can at least look. Let's see. If it's not helpful, please let me know.
>> Um, >> okay. Oh, they're showing up the left and the right. Okay, cool. I wasn't sure. Okay, so I'll have I'll put journalism one on the left. So, you'll have old and then we'll do new.
That works well. Okay. So, J1 over here and then we'll go down to J2 over here. I'll try and zoom in a little. a little bit bigger on J2.
>> Okay, I'll make see if I can get it to 150. >> Okay, I can read it. Thanks. >> I think we might lose the edits though if I make this smaller, >> right? Hold on. See,
might need to back up one more chair, I guess. Well, let me keep coming. >> I'll put some glasses on. >> Okay, maybe I got it. Well, no. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to have to back up one. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> All right. So, our first uh standard coach Hillard is what? >> Okay. So J21 is the exact same as uh J11 except it the J11 standard said demonstrate instead of model. So the
progression that they were trying to build was demonstrate in J11 and then model in J21. Um do we feel as though that should be maintained or do we feel like we should just keep the demonstrate
language? I'd say keep demonstrate. What the west of you say? >> Keep demonstrate. Miss Waters. >> Okay. Hearing no objection, let's approve that. >> Okay. So, we're just going to simply
take the same language from J11. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um J21 is or J22, sorry. um is model appropriate language, skills,
demeanor and attire to cultivate success in good public relations. That is identical to the J12 standard. So I assume we want to go ahead and move over >> yes >> language that we adopted for J12. >> No, no opposition.
Okay, so be it. >> Okay. Um J23 it reads model appropriate interviewing techniques. Um we changed that to use appropriate interviewing techniques. I assume we want to do that as well here.
>> Yes. >> Okay. Um and then J24 reads apply terms and expressions common to the industry to speaking, listening and writing. uh we changed that to apply terms and expressions common to the industry common in the industry to speaking, listening, writing and content creation.
Uh so I assume we would want to move that language over here as well. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um J25 reads, "Apply legal and ethical journalistic standards to all journalism activities."
Um, we changed that to apply legal and ethical journalistic standards. >> Yes, it sure looks similar, doesn't it? >> Yep, >> that is going to be a trend. Um, J26 reads, "Killfully apply language
usage skills and research techniques. We changed that to demonstrate appropriate language conventions for the audience and situation." >> Yes. Okay, >> agreed.
>> Let it be written, let it be done. >> J27 reads, "Killfully apply journalistic writing style for various media." Um, we change that to demonstrate appropriate journalistic writing styles for various media and audiences.
>> Yes. Okay. Our hard work in J1 has paid off in J2. >> I think it will likely pay off a lot in J3 as well. J4 different story. >> Um J28 reads recognize the difference
between fact, opinion, and bias and appropriate use in media production. We changed that to uh recognize the difference among fact, opinion, and bias. semicolon. Use them appropriately in writing and content creation. Eg. sports writing, digital
commentary, opinion, editorials. >> Yes, keep it Rosemary. I see you nodding. >> All right. Num 29 reads, "Use technological resources as needed to compose, edit, and revise work for
publication." We changed that to use digital tools as needed to create, edit, and revise work for publication. >> We said it will. Let's keep it. >> Okay. All right. >> Um J10 reads, "Write for an intended
prescribed audience, recognizing the importance of ethics and information gathering and reporting. We changed that to uh gather information, research, and report ethically." >> Stated quite simply. Yes.
>> Okay. Um J211 reads, "Killfully apply editing and revision techniques to produce work suitable for publication production." We changed that to um wait, does this one not have a corresponding
J211 skillfully apply editing and revision techniques? >> There might have been a remove in there. I think at one point it'll remove something. >> No. No. Oh, yeah. It just it it changes from they added the language of skillfully. Do we feel like that
language of skillfully needs to be added here as a form of of increased rigor? Because that was a difference that was made in the proposed in the proposed standards between J1 and J2 here or do we feel like our standard as written demonstrate editing and revision
techniques to produce content suitable for publication and/or production um assumes skillfully? >> I think it assumes skillfully. How does everybody else feel? Are we okay with keeping what we wrote? >> I think my only question is uh do we
have an issue if if there aren't significant differences between J1 and J2? Is that >> I don't care personally, but I'm just wondering from >> I guess standpoint. >> I will I will say up until this point this is the as far as I have seen this
is the first language change at all in the standards even that were proposed. Um, so this is this is the first time I've seen any difference. Um, >> and I don't know that skillfully says much more than demonstrate. >> And I I mean and we've used effectively
elsewhere, but then we still have journalism three and four. So if I you know, we'd either I mean you can't get more effective than effectively. So I don't know how else we would progress from there, >> right? >> Let's keep it the way it is. But
skillfully, we took that out of that earlier once, didn't we? >> Yes, we did. I mean, yes. >> Yeah. One way to think about this, Miss Darker, is this is often a nth grade class, and then you're looking at a 10th grade class. Not always, of course, but you know, the high school ELA standards
are 9, 10, 11, 12. So, but I defer to the committee on how much differentiation you'll want. >> Yeah. I I Let's Let's uh let's stay with what we've got on on this trend. it's going to be the same. And I don't think that that's problematic.
>> Again, >> I'm sorry. >> Those kids are those kids are very often uh included in the same class. Um and they may be having a different number that's assigned to them, but they're going to be meeting with the teacher at
the same time. is if a person takes uh the class in journalism, they're going to be in the classroom. They'll be me maybe a journalism one, a journalism 2, a journalism 3 person in the same room at the same time doing the same thing.
>> That is what I was going to point out. The gentleman that was on our committee, he said that he differentiated by just releasing more um responsibility as the students moved up. Right. Okay. Are we are we okay keeping them
the same? All right. Let's see if we can do something at 34 if it needs to be done. If it doesn't need to be done, you have written some excellent journalism uh standards here. Far better than the
ones that were used to create these courses. >> So, what was the proposal, Chair Kane? I'm sorry. keeping it the same >> for this particular standard. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um All right. Um J212 reads
exhibit a working knowledge for roles and procedures of management and production of various media. We changed that to um demonstrate knowledge of roles, management procedures and production techniques within various media.
>> Yes, same thing. Okay. Um J213 uh demonstrate knowledge of business management including advertising, distribution and/or accounting procedures. We can change that to demonstrate knowledge of business operations including advertising, promotion,
distribution and accounting procedures >> which are all business operations. Okay. Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Um J214 originally read understand and utilize standard principles of related areas to
enhance visual appeal. Uh 15 read utilize tools effectively for graphic design and 16 read demonstrate knowledge of layout and design procedures by incorporating a consistent style. Believe those are all identical to the standards in J1.
So, if that's the case, then we should probably adopt our new J114 and make it J214 and then remove these final two standards if we're going to keep that consistent. >> I agree. Is that agreeable to everybody?
Okay, thank you. I cannot believe we just got done with J2. All right, now what are we going to do with J3? Okay, so J3 starts to there are times where the language stays the same and then there are times where the language shifts a little bit. So we'll
just need to be attentive to that. So instead of demonstrating speaking, listening, and research skills to facilitate interviewing, they are now coaching peers in speaking, listening, and research skills which will facilitate interviewing and other
communication activities. I I think the coaching peers is correct. Uh but we need to use the language that we used in our instead of demonstrate it would be coaching peers and then use the
rest of our language. That's my suggestion >> to be consistent. So that I think would look like coach peers in speaking, listening and research skills to facilitate
interviewing and other oral communication. Is that acceptable to everybody? Yes, that's an increase from being the learner to being the teacher in that particular area.
Um okay uh J32 is coach peers in appropriate language, skills, demeanor and attire to cultivate success and good public relations. So this is once again the same language except instead of modeling we are now coaching peers. Um
so I will try to move that over. Um coach peers in appropriate language, skills, demeanor and attire to build rapport with the subject or audience. Yes.
>> Okay. Um J33 reads, "Coach Pier's inappropriate interviewing techniques." Um our language was use appropriate interviewing techniques. So I think we're just keeping this, right?
>> But we're gonna but we're going to coach peers using that. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. actually think but I think by implementing the coach Pierce language we would just be reverting back to the original proposal. >> Yes. >> Keep it. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Um
four 34 is coach Pearson using terms and expressions common to the industry in speaking, listening and writing. Our language was apply terms and expressions common in the industry to speaking, listening, writing and content creation. So I think we would be saying instead of apply terms and expressions
we would be coach peers. Should that be on or in? >> Coach Pierce on >> or >> on? >> On. On. Okay. >> Are we okay with that changing from in to on here across?
>> Yes. >> Coach Pierce on terms and expressions common in the industry to speaking, listening, writing, and content creation. Okay, good. Okay. Um J35 reads, "Coach peers in applying
legal and ethical journalistic standards to all journalism activities." Um our language was apply legal and ethical journalistic standards. Um so we would say would that be coach Peter's honor in
on >> on applying. >> Um, so, >> okay, I see. We don't we don't need it because they're getting coached on legal and ethical standards. Okay. >> Um, so should we we we've been saying we
said in for the first two standards and then we switched to on. Um, do we want to just stick with on throughout? So if we go back to J31, should it say coach peers on speaking, listening and research skills? And and J22, should it read coach peers on appropriate language
skills? >> English people speak up. >> I think it's on. >> Okay. >> Okay. We'll stay with on to be consistent. >> Sounds good. Okay. The J36 reads,
"Skillfully apply advanced language usage skills and research techniques." Um, so this is no longer coaching peers. We're back to doing it ourselves. Um, our that is
that is believe. Yeah, that's verb. Is that verbatim? Skillfully apply language usage skills and research techniques. Skillfully apply advanced. So they added the word advanced here. That is where advanced language usage skills and research techniques. So do we feel like we need
to add that word advanced here to mimic uh >> I don't think you need skillfully and advanced. I think you can just say >> we did get rid of the word skillfully. Um so our version of the standard read
uh demonstrate appropriate language conventions for the audience in situations. So, >> I don't think there's a such thing as advance appropriate. I just think it's appropriate. >> Yeah. >> I think way I think the way we've interpreted it, I don't think the word
advanced would make much sense here. >> Okay. >> So, are we good then on demonstrate >> appropriate language conventions? Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh J37 reads, "Killfully apply advanced journalistic writing style for
various media." Um this is once again they just added the word advanced. Um we have demonstrate appropriate journalistic writing styles for various media and audiences. Um kind of the same thing. Um do we feel like advanced is
encapsulated with inappropriate? >> I don't know. I would defer to our writers out there. Patty, is there uh a progression
in writing that we could call more advanced writing? This would have to do with using uh better vocabulary. But if if you're if it's journalism,
you're not looking to use it to communicate with all college level folks. >> And I I think our intent with appropriate was the idea that that there isn't just one spectrum of of better or
worse, that that there are certain types of uh writing style that are appropriate for certain situations. And so I think advanced implies that there are some styles that are inherently better than others, which I don't know if I think that kind of goes against our interpretation of of the standard.
>> Yes, that's what I wanted to ask our our writers out there, Carol and and Patty. Is there is there a better writing style or is what we said enough? Can we identify something to to increase
the rigor? >> Is this where we would add innovation, demonstrate innovation and appropriate journalistic writing styles for various uh media audiences? >> I'm thinking so. This would be a good spot to do that. >> So, would would it be demonstrate
innovative and appropriate journalistic writing styles or >> is that what is that what the proposed language is? Well, I had said demonstrate innovation and but I can hear the argument for de demonstrate
innovative and appropriate. >> Yeah, I my reason for innovative would be that because I think if we say demonstrate innovation, we're going to need to do some clarification about what innovation happens and it also slightly shifts the focus of the standard which would kind of take it a little bit out of line with the progression. Whereas
the use of an innovative as an adjective would kind of keep the the central focus. >> I'm fine with that. >> Okay. >> If everybody else is fine with that, let's accept it and move on. >> I think we have increased it in complexity.
>> Okay. Uh J38 is the exact same as J28. So I think we should probably just move our language from J28 straight down. Yes, sir. >> All right.
And then let's see. J 39 reads, "Use technology to compose, edit, and revise work for publication." That is that's nearly the same as J29 except in
J29 they said use technological resources. Um but we're not we deleted that language anyway because weing digital tools. So I I think this would just be a situation where we would move our language down. >> I agree. Um, our language was use
digital tools as needed to create, edit, and revise work for publication. >> Yes, sir. >> Acceptable. Okay. Move on. >> J310 reads, "Right for an intended prescribed audience. Recognize the importance of ethics and information
gathering and reporting." That was identical to the J2 standard. So, I think we're probably just moving our standard down, which reads, "Gather information, research, and report ethically."
>> Yes. >> Okay. Um, J311 reads, "Skillfully apply editing and revision techniques to produce work suitable for publication production." That is identical to our J211. So I think this is once again a situation where we're just moving the language
down. Um so we've got demonstrate editing and revision techniques to produce content suitable for publication and or production. >> Yes. >> Okay. J312 reads exhibit a working knowledge for roles and procedures of management and produ and production of
various media. That is the same as our J2. So I think we can move our J2 down and make it J3. >> Sorry. And the one above 12. I do think you can say um demonstrate advanced editing and revision techniques.
>> Okay. >> To add some rigor. >> Yeah, I think that's appropriate. >> Good suggestion. Thank you. Is that agreeable to everybody? All right, we're adding rigor. >> Okay. Uh J313
reads, "Demonstrate knowledge of business management, including advertising, distribution, and andor accounting procedures." that is the same as our J2. So, um we can move that down and say demonstrate knowledge of business
operations including advertising, promotion, distribution and accounting procedures. And J314, 15 and 16, let's see, are they the same?
They appear to be the same. >> Yes. Yes. So, I think we can take our language down for 14 and then remove those two. We do have a new 17 that pops up here. Um,
so we'll need to look at it a fresh because we it doesn't have a predecessor. Our J317 reads, uh, in identify entrylevel media work experiences, research educational paths
within these industries, and research how careers in these industries are evaluated for job performance. >> So, I've actually been looking at this one for a while. I'd like to make one slight change. I think it's I think it's important that we have students at least
identify student journalism contests. And so can we add that to the beginning? Identify student journalism contest and entry level um media. >> Okay. >> I would love to say submit but I know we can't force them to submit but at least
we can have them familiar with them and maybe they will submit. I think that's an important part of advanced journalism. >> Okay. So it would read, "Identify student journalism contests and entry-level media work experiences. Research educational paths within these
industries and research how careers in these industries are evaluated for job performance. That acceptable to everyone. Okay, we have just completed journalism 3. Let's see what journalism 4 has to hold.
>> Okay. Um, journalism for first standard. Um, I I also, and this is I think this is kind of a question for Miss Summers. Um, the standard code here now there are
there's another letter thrown in. Because the previous electives for in journalism have just been J1 dot whatever the number of the standard is. Now we have J4 O or J4 W or J4 V. Um
and then in some cases it's J4 I as well. Um is that was I guess that's question for EAT people as well. Was that an intentional choice that was made to switch up that standard code or was that an oversight or what what's what's
going on with that? >> You see what we're talking about? >> Yes. Um I can give Timmy a second to maybe get her notes together. Yes, you're absolutely right that while it's not quite a strand, it fit most clearly in the spreadsheet under strand. There's a couple other electives that have I
believe etmology and linguistics because you can teach it in semesters or you can teach it as a whole. they'll have them, too. So, just be on the lookout for that. I can >> Sorry. Sorry, Brianna. As far as reasoning behind it, I think it was just more um
I think it was an intent to go back and do all of them. But since we did not, if you want to delete it, just get rid of it. >> Let's get rid of it and be consistent. I think we maybe something we ran out of time on and just didn't go back and
finish it. Keep it simple. >> Thank you. >> Even so, even though this is changing to oral, right? >> Yes, that's what the O stands for and that's where it starts off in the first standard. >> So, just a question if you'all think
that the subcategories are helpful, >> yes or no. And if you want to apply them, yes or no, that would be the two questions on the table. >> I I think we've been intentional about making some of these standards, which were a little specific, a little broader. So, I'm not sure if these uh
the categories are oral, written, visual, and industry. Some of those could still map over pretty smoothly, but I think others will map a little less smoothly. Um, just to throw that out there. We it would it would require some some workshopping I think to
>> I think with some of the changes have been made it may take a lot more than just tweaking make it work. >> Yes. So let's let's go through our changes and just take out the oral and the written my suggestion
because we have ours apply universally. >> Yeah. I also think from a professional standpoint, the boundaries between those have collapsed so much. Um, >> thank you. >> Okay. So, just to clarify, I'm going to
write this and then uh move it down. So, we're we're removing um the strand here is what that would be called. Um is that are we're in agreement there? >> Yes. >> Okay. So I will I'll just carry that
down across the the J4 standards. Okay. Um are we ready to go ahead and move into the language of the standards themselves? Okay. >> Um so J41 reads teach peers speaking listening and research skill. Okay. So
it's the same language as J3 except instead of coach peers it's teach peers. Does that does that feel like a progression? >> I I think that Dr. Stout feels no.
>> I feel like it's essentially the same thing and I would be comfortable uh copying the standards from J3 to J4 like we do with English one, English two, English three, English four. But >> I agree. Yeah, I I would agree um there
as well. I think it was somebody's attempt to to add rigor but that's not adding anything. >> Okay. So, so if that's the case then we will simply adopt the language from uh
J3. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um same >> all the way through. >> Well, I don't know if it's all the way through because there are a few more standard. I think it's worth just just checking because we did add a rigger a couple places and in small little things.
>> Um but two is teach peers appropriate. Yeah, that one looks the same. So I think we can move >> J3 over >> and then I think yeah it looks like J4
can also move over. Hop in here anybody if you got any questions because we're moving fast on here because they all look the same. We're not going to waste any time. We're going to finish this devil tonight. And by devil, I assume you mean
journalism or Okay, >> it was all elective standards. I thought for we're in for quite a night. Um, all right. So, J4 looks to be the same except teach versus coach. So,
we can move our language down. Okay. Um J5 looks to be the same. Is it? >> Well, he's inspecting everybody get their calendars out so we can give
Brianna some input as soon as we're done with this. >> I guess it looks like five was slightly different. >> Brianna, it it looks as though that was accidentally duplicated. J44 and J45 look to be the exact same standard. Um,
and I think that was >> Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay, I can look into it and if you want to circle back. >> Yeah, it Okay, thank you. Um, so J46 is
the analog for J35. So that's interesting. Okay, there is a little bit of a switch up in language here. Um, J35 reads, uh, coach peers on legal and ethical
journalistic standards. And then J4 six reads, with guidance from teacher, evaluate the legal and ethical journalistic standards. So instead of coaching peers on it, we're now evaluating the legal and ethical journalistic standards. And then in
J2 we were applying the legal and ethical journalistic standards. So we do do we feel like evaluating the legal and ethical stand the legal and ethical standards at the four level is appropriate or do we want to maintain
this language of coaching peers? >> Well, it's it's actually two different things. It's uh how far can we go? Uh it's like um all of the rebels that join Syria
satellite and it's teaching them to evaluate whether or not this is correct. We've been living with this for so long. We've been doing this. Uh can we do it another way? Are these
standards correct? I like evaluate. I think it kind of implies some kind of co-deision making between the the teacher and the senior student or the level four students. >> Okay.
>> Decisions about publications. >> I can look I can agree with that. >> So we would need to keep with guidance from teacher then. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, with guidance from teacher, evaluate legal and ethical journalistic
standards. Yes. Is that what we're going with here? >> Yes. I hear no objection. Is that a yes? >> Yes. Move on, please. >> Sorry. Is I think my audio was off there
for a second or >> Yes. Move on, please. >> Sorry. Sorry, sorry. Um, accidentally muted you all. Um, okay. Uh, J47 reads, "Along with the teacher and administration, evaluate the suitability
of language usage skills and research techniques for publication." Um, so once again, we're moving to the language of evaluate. Um so we previously had said demonstrate appropriate
language conventions for the uh audience and situation. So I I can paste that down. >> You know we would just substitute the word evaluate for demonstrate. >> Okay. So it would read evaluate appropriate language
conventions for the audience and situation. >> Should we include that bit about along with the teacher and administration? >> Yes, probably. Good. >> All right. Okay. Um
>> should we say teacher or administration? I guess I don't understand why the administration is >> the administrators are uh always the ones that get the heat when the school
newspaper goes home and it has some inappropriate language in it that the teacher and the student thought was okay but uh it wasn't okay for the community. I I get that, but I don't really think they are brought into the conversation
beforehand. Unfortunately, they're just brought in afterwards. >> Well, but that's where the evaluation's going to come in. Is this going to is this going to make anybody mad? I can't use bad language because you guys are recording this.
>> Is this an andor situation? I feel like it's a andor because if not, you're asking like the vice principal to read every school newspaper or podcast before it goes out. I don't know if that's really practical. >> Uh, it happens.
>> Well, maybe so. >> It very much happens. >> I I graduated from a school 2,000 people, so it did not happen at my school, which I shall not. So >> yeah, I I live with Andor, but u
teacher doesn't want to keep their contract, they could just go ahead and do it by themselves. >> All right. Um >> do you have an update for you, Vice Chair Hillard and >> Okay. And this is all thanks to Tammy, so I'm just the messenger, but um she
picked up on the fact that and Tammy, you jump in. The only difference between four and five is the word activities and that was carried over from the currently active journalism 4 standard. So y'all feel free to do whatever you think is best.
>> I think if I'm unless I'm missing something, this seems to just be a duplication. And >> it's very close. Just the word activities gets thrown on to five. I have no idea what the difference would be.
>> And we deleted that language anyway. I think >> Yeah. And if you go back to the currently active journalism standards, what's also funny, I think this might have been an error with the predecessor predecessor predecessors, they cite completely different uh ELA standards
connections. So like there's language for the language and RAR for the first one and RL and SL for the second one. have no idea what that would entail. So, >> so the only thing is now your numbers have to change. So, I think six becomes
five. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah, that would be I can do that. So, we're or we're removing the former J45 then >> that would be my proposal. Yeah. >> Unless there's an inadvertent missing thing that the predecessor predecessor forgot skill-wise.
Trying to look. So J3 4, this is about terms and exp. Oh, so are we missing? No, because you've got ethical and legal. I'm very confused, but three is missing here. Yeah, I think you're good. >> Yeah, I think I think we just got a
duplicate in there. Um, and I I haven't gone far enough down, but there are 17 J3 standards, but there are 18 J4 standards, so I think this likely just got crammed in there. >> Okay, cool. Okay. Um, are we are we continuing
onward? It is 7:30 and we wanted to >> If you want to continue on and finish this, raise your hand. If you'd rather, we can do it the next time. I want to continue. >> Yeah, I'd like to get it done. >> Let's finish it. We can get it done
quickly. >> Okay. Um, >> one quick note. Um, advisers, if you need to leave, that's totally fine. I appreciate your time. Okay, thank you. >> Okay, I will I will try to not belabor
the point here. Um J48 um along with teacher administration evaluate the journalistic writing style for various media. Ours was demonstrate innovative and appropriate journalistic writing styles for various media and audiences. So I think this would be
>> I think carry it over >> and so are we gonna well our student we've been switching to a uh along with the teacher and or administration evaluate. Do we want to keep that? >> Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, do that too. >> Okay, >> we don't want to get anybody in trouble. >> Okay. Um
J49 is I believe yeah it's the same one we've been using for J38. Um so instead of recognizing I assume we're once again going to evaluate.
>> Yes. >> Um and we're also going to keep the teacher and admin involved. Um, so along with the teacher and administration, evaluate the difference among fact, opinion, and bias. Use them appropriately in content, writing, and content creation. >> Yes,
>> we're good with that. >> Yes. >> Um, okay. We're out of the evaluation world now, and we're back to use technology to compose, edit, and revise work for publication. Um, that's identical to our J3 standard. So, I think we can just simply move our
J3 standard over here. >> Yes, sir. Um, okay. And then J411
is uh the exact same as our J310. >> I don't see any new rigger that could be added there. Let's just move it over. >> Okay. Actually, I take that back. um it does change from write for an intended audience to write opinion pieces
>> for uh intended audience. Now I would I would argue that that unnecessarily puts restrictions on what students are doing at the highest level but I'm open to others feedback because this is not my world. Well, opinion piece is just one thing
that they're going to be writing. They'll but it's including now new opinion pieces. It's extending them into opinion pieces other than all the other stuff that they've been writing. Okay. I Yes. I will say though I mean we had changed the standard to gather
information research and report ethically. So this is um we did change up the language quite a bit. >> There was one standard where we had like recognized bias and we talked about that for a while. I think it was probably like recognized to right now.
This is the one where we talked about sports col sports journalism and commentary. >> The the previous one J J48 um which would read uh along with teacher and administration evaluate the difference among fact
opinion and bias. Use them appropriately in writing and content creation. Eg sports writing digital commentary opinion editorials. Well, I think we >> that covers that. >> Yes, we've been we've been telling them to do opinion editorials since J1. So, I don't I don't think we need to add language about opinion pieces here.
>> Okay, I agree. >> So, are we good to just keep then gather information, research, and report ethically? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um J412 reads, "Skillfully apply editing and revision techniques to produce work suitable for publication."
Um, yeah, that's that's identical to what J3 is. >> Let's move it over then. >> Okay. Um, and I know guys that there are some of these standard codes that are
probably not exactly correct because I'm trying to move quickly. Just know that I I will be double-checking this. Uh, so, but I mean, also feel free to flag me if there's something that I that I'm copying over incorrectly. Um J413 is along with the teacher manage roles
and procedures to facilitate the production of various media. Um previously this was exhibited working or we had demonstrate knowledge of roles management procedures and production techniques within various media. So we're moving from
demonstrating knowledge to actually doing the management. Okay. >> Um, so the language we currently have for J3 is demonstrate knowledge of roles, management procedures, and production techniques within various media.
>> You're asking them to participate in >> so um >> participate in a variety of rules, management procedures, and and production techniques. >> Um, yeah, I think that's mostly it. I think it but I do think the word manage
is intentional because I think these these J4 students are supposed to be kind of in charge. Um so participate in kind of they presumably been participating in roles leading up to this point too. Um now >> participating in management procedure they're in charge.
>> Okay. Um then do we want to change it to are we comfortable then with along with the teacher participate in roles management procedures and production? uh we can't really >> I think we still need demonstrate knowledge of management procedures and
along with the teacher uh manage staffers and production techniques within various media. >> Okay. So, so it's demonstrate knowledge
of management. >> I don't think you can use manage management procedures is what I'm talking about. >> Okay. Uh what about maybe use knowledge of roles, management procedures and production techniques well to manage
uh >> use knowledge of management procedures and production techniques to manage various roles >> along with the teacher. use knowledge of management procedures and production
techniques to manage various roles. >> We're missing the production of various media with that change. I think it still fit in there, but >> we we manage production of various media. They're not managing the rules.
are managing the production of the media which includes the rules but they're managing the production of the media. Um so just the what's in there right now is a work in progress so don't take that as what I'm drafting. Um our our
previous language was demonstrate knowledge of roles management procedures and production techniques within various media. We had gotten we had not included any language up until this point about uh production of media but actually I think that's new to this this level
anyway. So um so along with the teacher use knowledge of management procedures and production techniques to is that just then we just take the language from the proposed standard to
facilitate the production of various media. >> Yes. How about demonstrate and apply? >> Um, instead of use, is that what you're saying? >> Along with the teacher, demonstrate and apply knowledge of specific roles, management
procedures, and production techniques to effectively create various medias. Along with the teacher, demonstrate and manage So along with the teacher, >> okay,
>> demonstrate and manage. >> Can you manage knowledge of specific roles? That's where we get in ah along with the teacher manage roles and procedures and demonstrate knowledge of production techniques to facilitate the creation of
various media. >> Okay. >> So, let me >> I think the hour is getting late, boys and girls. Uh, this is a little stickler. We didn't quite get there, but we're close and it's not going to mean anything. Uh, we can get back to this.
Let's sleep on this. Uh, cuz I I think we're casting um extra graasing at straws here. Uh, so I would like to uh adjourn the meeting, but before we do that, I want to check
your calendars because that might take a while and I don't want to keep everybody up all night. Um, so, uh, how do you want to do this, uh, Brianna? Oh, just when we needed her. Okay. Uh,
I'm I am not available the next two Mondays, guys. I got to coach my kids at school on successfully completing the EdTPA and I've missed out on a couple of meetings already. I don't want to uh
miss here out on the end. Uh how does everybody look next week? Uh Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Out of those days, Tuesday would be the easiest for me because I should have easier child care on that day. But I can always make things work.
>> I'm good Tuesday. >> Co-chair Hillyard, we need you. >> Yeah, I mean I'm I'm good with Tuesday. Um we're it's our fall break next week, so I'm I'm pretty available. >> Okay. >> Um I have class on Tuesday and Thursday,
so I would have to miss an hour again. Okay. Um, >> Tuesday probably the same time, 5:30 on Tuesday. >> I'm available Wednesday.
Who's uh how are we doing on Wednesday? Any conflicts on Wednesday? >> I can't do Wednesday. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Probably not Thursday. Potentially Thursday would be difficult. >> Okay. Okay, if there's not a clear winner, we can I'll send out a poll. I
was just hoping to get that for um Josh, but I think with the adviserss and stuff, we probably can't make it work. But I appreciate checking as you organizing things. I was grabbing dinner. Um I will send out a poll. I just asked y'all if you can
>> We can have a quorum on Tuesday. Uh >> you have a quum on Tuesday. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Who would we be missing? Um, I would have to step out again for an hour for class, right? >> And I will be in at 5:30 on Tuesday.
>> Okay. Um, >> we could still get rolling. >> Okay. Let me check with our advisors and see if Tuesday works. And I'll try and make sure at least Tammy, does Tuesday work for you? I'm sorry. You got stuck with the electives. Okay. I'll I'll talk to Tammy and see
what we've got and then talk to Banks because he's our high school person and if we have that like our bases are covered. >> All right. Otherwise, uh if there's a problem then you could just email us out a survey again. But uh Mondays I I can't do it anymore because I got to take care
of my kids. Well, Tuesday, >> sorry, Tuesday is only >> if we win Monday. >> I certainly hope so. >> I just don't know what time we play Tuesday until Monday's over.
>> That's okay. Let's just go for it and I will I will hold down the fort. >> Okay. I'm going to pencil it in. If you just pencil it in and wait for your confirmation. >> That sounds great. >> All right. Uh, thank you everybody for
just pulling it together again and just this is the best collaborative team I've ever worked with. Uh, and it's just been wonderful. Uh, you guys are making a gift to a million kids. So, um, I'll see
you when I see you and I'd like to call this meeting adjourned. Thank you for coming and have a good rest of your evening. Safe travels everyone.