Good afternoon everybody. I'm going to call the city of Titusville city council special meeting July 12th, 2025 at 1 pm to order. You would please take a moment for a moment of silence for our invocation. Please,
please stand for the pledge of allegiance. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for
all. Thank you very much. I believe we have a quorum. Do we have a quorum, Mr. Stokes? Uh, yes, sir. We do have a quorum. City clerk, would you mind reading the rules? Yes, sir. Individuals wishing to speak
on the agenda items must complete a signup card prior to the item being introduced. Signup cards are available on the table. Individuals wishing to speak on non-aggenda items may do so under p public comment. No signup card is required. Citizens will be given
three minutes to speak on all agenda items and all signup cards and exhibits being submitted to the city council shall be placed in the box on the table. Thank you, city clerk, city manager. Good afternoon, mayor, vice mayor, and
councel. As stated earlier, the purpose of this special meeting is to evaluate the applications for the position of city attorney. This morning, each member of council was able to individually meet with each candidate applicant and and
during an interview process. That process has been completed. Uh we're now moving on to the special public meeting phase in which each candidate will be brought to the collective city council interviewed again and prior to any
discussion of city council public present will be have the will have the opportunity to provide input to the collective city council. Thank you. City manager member Nelson. I'm going to make a suggestion that we
have each candidate come up and introduce themselves before we start and allow us to ask questions. Thank you very much, uh, member Nelson. Um
before we talk to each uh applicant individually, uh we're going to kind of discuss rules of engagement from a city council standpoint. So what we're going to do now, I know it's not listed on the agenda, but um HR made the strong
suggestion that we should ask the same questions of each uh candidate here uh before them before us. So, the question I pose to the board is how do you want to handle that? We have about 30 minutes that we'll have with each candidate. Um,
if we break it up evenly, that pretty much allows like two questions per per council member with a lot of time for response. Um, so that's the way you guys would like to do it. I'm also open to suggestions. Uh, but I think the the key is consistency and evaluating them on the same questions. Member Nelson,
that that would work. All right. So, uh, I would, um, you know, ask we all agree that we each ask two questions. Um, and then we'll each person will ask those same two questions of each candidate and we're all good with that. Member Stol.
Yeah. My only question would be, will we have a chance after the applicants leave the room to make sure that we're not duplicating questions up here? So, I might have two questions I already outlined, but they might be the same somebody else's. So, I guess my question would be, do we have an opportunity to
discuss what two questions each person is doing to maybe help critique each other's questions to make sure we're asking solid questions and not being redundant? Do you I mean, I'm fine with that if you guys are fine with that. I mean, at the end of the day, um, you know, whoever goes
first will probably get the, you know, either the easiest or the hardest job in terms of question to ask, um, because you got to go first or or whatnot. But, yeah, I don't know. I just I I would want it to make it smooth for our applicants, too, that,
you know, they're not getting asked a duplicated question and feeling kind of put on the spot. So well if it's if it's duplicated there should be a sim similar answer unless it's I mean I think then if it is a similar mindset or philosophy then maybe you can get a little bit more into the
weeds if that is you know something that's very important to you. But um at the same time I don't want anybody on council to feel like they didn't have an opportunity to ask the question that they wanted to to ask. Um but again I'm not making the rules. It's for us to decide the rules. I'm just helping
facilitate the conversation. member Nelson, did you have anything to add? I heard you kind of make a noise. I was thinking out loud. Yeah. Yeah, I heard it. Yeah. Um I wasn't even looking and I heard the face. You've known me too long.
Um my thought is that I understand wanting to have the same question asked of each applicant. However, in certain cases, there may be
specific questions for one applicant which would not apply to others. So, from that point of view, I do have a problem with it because I think that
I Okay, I hear you on that and I understand. I guess when I was meeting with staff and some of the concerns I would have is if we're that could look we could be accused of not being fair to all applicants. So why did you ask this of one applicant but then not of the other and that was a potentially a pro
or a con. So I think maybe a way if we could broaden the question whatever it may be and then we are able to ask follow-up questions if something arises from that. I think that was a way around it. If we had like four to five set core questions as a board and then if when
they're answering if something in the response causes a follow-up question, I think that would be okay and fair. But to say, okay, this candidate we're going to ask these questions and then this one's I feel like we could get ourselves into potentially some legal trouble.
I can I I agree with that. Um, but obviously they have different backgrounds and so there may be some questions that are appropriate for one candidate but aren't appropriate for another candidate.
But I agree the core questions should pretty much be the same. Yes. And when I suggested two questions, it was just again a starting point. It wasn't to say you can't ask follow-up questions or elaborate or explain in more detail. So, Vice Mayor Cole,
I just think we need to be a consistent uh I agree with me Stokel that we need now the answers to the questions that they give may make us think of other questions that we have to ask a followup, but I
think we need to be consistent across the board with the questions that we ask each one. I mean, if you would like If we're not sure, I could ask the same for questions. Um, and then allow you guys to do follow-up questions as just a
general philosophical questions. I mean, again, it's it's up to you guys on how you want to do it. Uh, just for consistency purposes. Again, I'm just thinking, but member Nelson. Okay. So, one of our applicants worked for DCF.
Um, the other or three did not. So, what I ask the applicants that didn't work for DCF, what did you do for DCF? What do you think that experience um contributed to your growth? I mean,
so, and I thought about that my and I guess this is feeding into one of my potential questions. I was thinking of describe your background with public and private sector and how do you feel like that equips you for this role? Right. And then a follow-up question to that answer could be, can you explain specifically with if you needed to, but
at least let's make it broad for everybody. Okay. And go that route and then and that's okay. Okay. So, where do we land? Are we each asking two questions or am I just asking a broad question, letting you guys do a
followup? I think everybody's asking two questions. And if we need followup, then we'll do that. Okay. All right. I'm just making sure I know how to conduct an effective uh interview with multiple people. That's
all I'm trying to do. All right. So, with that being said, we all got the the rules of the road. Uh thank you candidates. Uh it's been a pleasure to get to know each one of you guys today. And I believe uh attorney treasurer will be the first one up.
Uh, I'll ask the other candidates to give us some some privacy, please, which is odd to ask for in this setting because there is no privacy. Um, city clerk, uh, could you, uh, start the timer for 30 minutes? I want to make
sure we're equal and fair to all parties. So, I'm going to open up a discussion with, um, attorney treasury here for 30 minutes. And if council wishes to extend the time, uh, please just make a motion to extend the time.
Uh, council can do that, but I'm just trying to make sure it's even playing field for everybody. Sorry, Jill. I to give you a heads up about that. All right. Um, it looks like member Nelson would like to go first, so I'm gonna let you have the floor.
Is that okay? Yes. Good afternoon, Andre Treasure. Uh, for the record, just generally um Okay. Um, and I was I will say this to the rest of the members. To me, having
somebody who is um equally adept at litigation and transactional affairs is important because if somebody is
proficient in litigation, they'll understand the rules of evidence. They will understand what it takes to uh win a case if we need to and they will also know when it's important to have outside
counsel. So, Miss Treasure, uh can you describe your experience and talk to us about litigation? Yes, absolutely. I've had the fortune of
uh being exposed to litigation throughout my 24-year career as an attorney in various areas. Um the first was my first job um out of law school. I was the staff attorney for the 15th
judicial circuit uh which is working for 52 judges. So I got the litigation experience. Initially I got into a courtroom which is what litigation is essentially is. you're you're an attorney practicing um litigation in the courtroom. So I got the exposure um from
the judge's perspective actually which I think is very important because that is the decision maker in any of our cases. So I think first and foremost I have the experience um working as a litigator viewing from the judge's perspective
what a judge looks for and how to write and draft a final judgment. Uh after that I would got the fortune uh or some may say misfortune of working with the department of children and and families which is my passion uh child advocacy
and working for children and child welfare. Um and there you're you walk in the door and you get a hundred cases uh per case load. And so I've had to litigate those cases. Dependency cases is what we call them in the field of
law, which is taking a case from its inception uh when a child is is removed from their home all the way up to where the case is resolved. So, I've had the fortune of of handling a case load of a
hundred cases for over six years, litigating, going to mediation, filing motions, um taking it to trial before judges. They were bench trials, not jury trials. But I've had um like I said, the experience of practicing litigation
continuously for six years um straight in addition uh to my current role as the assistant city attorney for West Palm Beach. I'm on the litigation team where I handled all where I handle all the litigation outside of personal injury
and employment law cases that the cases I handle as far as from a litigation perspective include but are not limited to uh municipal ordinance violations uh code enforcement violations that are cited by code enforcement officers andor
police officers. I also handle all the cases uh litigate cases regarding foreclosures uh real estate property damages declaratory actions injunctive relief. So I'm essentially uh a part of the
litigation team and and actively participate in litigation there. Even though I'm not I don't do the personal injury or 1983 police officer cases. I am a part of the team and we go over those cases twice per week and we
provide um legal input, legal analysis and so we work as a team. Like I've said I think in my interviews I'm an assistant city attorney for city that handle that has 15 attorneys. It handles most of the if not all of our cases
inhouse. So, not only if I were to be offered this position, come as a single person, but I'll also bring a team of 15 of um expertise that I can reach out to on any litigation matter.
And just real quickly, um I also when I worked for the city of Riviera Beach, I was the assistant city attorney. It was just a two team uh office, but I also handled the litigation matters uh in that team that were not outsourced. So, how do you feel about working on
cases inhouse versus outsourcing them? I I think I because of my litigation background, my initial um I'm I would be well verssed in in knowing what can be handled in-house based on my expertise not only personally but also what
resources I inhouse can reach out to to uh handle those matters. I I'm generally personally a frugal person. So I would heir on the side of not wanting to outsource as much. However, there are cases depending on the risk and the the
the subject matter that may need to be outsourced. But again, coming from a litigation background and litigators, we think we can handle most things. That would be my general um rule of thumb. Thank you. Thank you, Member Nelson. Vice Oh,
sorry. Member Mscoso. Yeah, thank you. Um, it was a pleasure speaking with you today. Um, thank you. Likewise. Thank you. So, we have faced some high uh profile legal matters in recent
years. Can you describe a time when you helped a city navigate a sensitive or high stakes legal situation? Um, and how did you manage communication with both the public and the officials? Currently, uh without going into too
much, uh the city of West Palm Beach, we have quite a few high-profile cases, um one, uh specific procurement matter that was handled that was very much a highp profofile media case. Um where we
disqualified a a bid uh there was a bid protest based on the disqualification of a bid applicant. uh the matter was sued upon and um the city lost on the substantive areas.
However, they were this the the opposing uh the applicant or the person the plaintiff suing us was awarded a million dollars in attorney's fees which of course is an in is an exorbitant amount
of money and we have appealed that again internally I think in any case internally you want to assure your client which would be the city as well as the council member of the law, you want to strongly advise them, give sound
legal advice. So that internally in in addition to any media cases, usually you know the the answer is we cannot discuss an ongoing um legal litigation matter. So that's the pat answer.
However, I understand that there is always interest rightfully so of the citizenry of a of a city. I just think you have to have that balance in providing information but understanding ongoing litigation matters uh is
confidential to to a point until it's resolved. Did you have another question? Um so my second question would be are there any particular cases or litigation that you are proud of? I'm most proud of even though it's not u
municipal oriented but in my 24 years I'm most proud of one of the first cases I handled um and judges usually I worked for the judges and they usually tell you this is how I want to rule make sure I'm ruling correctly or make it happen or
you know um write the order and I wrote the order it was appealed up to the fourth DCA which uh stated that we were erroneous on our order, an order that I wrote. Never, needless to say, however, it was appealed to the Florida Supreme
Court who agreed with the order and as such the legislation was changed as a result. Thank you very much, Vice May. So, because of the size of our legal staff, which is two,
uh there we do outsource. uh just give me a brief indication of your experience working with lawyers outside and how do you rate how would you rate them?
It's twofold. I've worked in a city where it was just the city attorney and myself as the assistant city attorney. In addition, currently I work within an office where there are 15 attorneys. Uh so I've been able to be exposed to both
side of the coin where you want to take everything inhouse or you want to outsource everything. Now this particular position would be the smaller um avenue of course I think I would one need to see the
infrastructure of how many cases we have what it is that is being handled um internally currently and it's a matter of again you know I will always be cautious in outsourcing cases that I believe that I myself can handle or
another assistant city attorney can handle because I do understand um hiring outside counsel uh can be um very pricey to say the least. So I think I would just have to know more how the
infrastructure is currently set up, what cases we have, what can be handled internally and again a lot of cases do get settled and I believe initially a city attorney and an assistant city attorney could take cases up to settlement without having to outsource
it at the inception. Um, so basically if varying departments have different legal things that they have to
work with, what would your system be to prioritize these needs for these different departments? I first would have to gather the information of what the needs are and then I would prioritize them. Usually anything that's court or litigation
affiliated because those are ran on a judge judiciary or judges timetable, you want to have those to the forefront. For example, you don't want a hearing set next week um and and no one shows up for for the city or if it's outside council
that may not be needed and it can be intern uh housed internally. So I would always want to see what's the fire as it pertains to anything litigation that's court that that's court triggered at the at the same time. Um I do know there are
internal whether it's employment issues, employment law related issues or internal issues that also may have fires going. you just want to identify them as soon as possible uh to make sure that there there's no further ongoing risks
uh posed to for for the city. Thank you, Vice Mayor Cole. Member Stokel. Yes. Hello. Good to see you again. Thanks. Um okay. So my first question is um can you share an example of a piece of uh legislation as in terms of an
ordinance change that maybe had a significant impact on a municipality that you've worked for? Yes. Working in partnership with the city manager and staff. Yes. Um when I worked for the city of Rivera Beach um few years ago, I think
the city wanted to implement it had high crime areas and the city wanted to implement a curfew uh ordinance which then was not very uh popular and I know still there have been some litigation that have have knocked down some cur
some curfew ordinances re you know in recent times. However, I was able to work from scratch um on a curfew ordinance like I said a few years few years back that um was enacted under the
municipality which the the city found correlated with the decrease in in crime rate that it was trying to remedy at the time. Thank you. And then my second question um
so say we have an agenda item. It's coming before us as council. It's um regarding a land use which is legislative. It has a reasonzoning which is quasi judicial. Can you explain your approach of how you would best help prepare council members
regarding this agenda item? Currently in our office, all agenda items coming up are reviewed uh by the city attorney's office uh to make sure that uh the laws are so I would pretty
much I'm saying the example that that's something I would implement here as well is to identify so the city attorney's office usually has to sign off on agenda items that's definitely involved uh land
use issues. So, that's something I would implement that the that should trigger some involvement with the city attorney's office in addition to um looking at the agenda item, conferring with staff to making sure that not only
the statutes are are in compliance are complied with, but also our local ordinance are in comply are complied with so that once the agenda item reaches the board, you guys are well um versed and equipped
and and and and provided as much knowledge as possible in order to rely on what to to vote on. In addition, the city of West Palm Beach currently we have agenda review which is a few days before and so again any questions or any
issues or matters especially with land use issues because there's so much and always will be development uh those issues are fleshed out um at that time so that uh the board the commission you yourself the council members will be fully equipped on the matter and well
verssed on the law that will be applicable to the matter. Okay. Okay. And then a follow up to that. So, say you are doing your briefings one-on-one with us and you find that um I I you've got it's gone through you. It's sound. It's legal, but I don't like it. I'm not liking this
item. Can you describe what your approach to that would be if if I'm leaning towards that of how you would best advise me as a council member? I would advise as to the law. again, you know, um your opinion or your your
position will or anybody's uh me council member's position and and and viewpoint will be their own. I can only advise you as to law to the law as well as any ramifications that may result if you go contrary to the law.
Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you very much and I too enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you. Likewise, you know, um hopefully, you know, the the day will end quickly, but uh how would you explain a controversial legal position to the public in plain
language? I've always pride myself as an attorney that I'm very relatable as well as I've been taught earlier on legalies are overrated. Uh uh my fellow colleague may attest to, but legalies are overrated. So I like to
be concise and I like to use the plain language especially if someone is not versed in in in in legal ease. So my I always believe in effective communication and therefore if there's a controversial issue that this the city
is faced I would try to be as concise and as um plain using plain language that can be uh comprehended as much as possible. Thank you very much. Uh, how do you balance legal requirements with public
opinion or political pressure? Thankfully, as an attorney, I'm only responsible for the legal part of of this equation if I were to to get the position. So again, I am I've always prided myself in providing thorough
sound legal advice to my clients, whether it's a commission or a council or someone who is um a representing as a domestic violence victim or survivor. So once I've advised of the legal uh of the
law and of the uh legal ramifications, the decision maker, my client makes the decision. Thank you very much. Um, we still have some time left. Is there anything you would like to add about your experience, your background that you feel it's
important for not only us to know, but the public as well? Sure. First, I want to say I thoroughly enjoyed the uh interview process so far. Thank everyone uh for accommodating me and um the food was great and the conversation
even better. Uh I have been an attorney for 24 years. My passion is public service. I have served the public willingly and and happily. Like I I've not regretted not going into private practice. I've been recruited accordingly. I've been told by judges,
"Are you crazy? You should, you know, make some money." But again, I am I'm very much into public service. I look forward to continuing and being a team member here if offered the position in providing public service that I know all of you are here. We're here on a
Saturday because we want to serve uh the public because we want to do good work and I look forward to it and thank you for the opportunity in uh letting me interview for this position. Thank you very much. Uh council, any follow-up questions from what you asked earlier or anything else you'd like to
ask? Member Nelson, it's not that I necessarily want to ask an additional question. I just want to say it was a pleasure meeting you. Thank you. Likewise for everyone. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Really appreciate
your time. May I be excused? Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. I'm not a judge, so I'm not used to excusing people. Um Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Member Mosa.
Um I would like to add one of the applicants mentioned and don't worry. Um would when we I know next week we're going to be um interviewing the city manager positions. If we decide to choose someone today, would that person, if they're available, be able to
interview? Because city manager and city attorney are going to work closely together, would they um would we be open to having that person be in on those interviews as well? So, it's just something to think of. we don't have to discuss it now, but um but I I I did think it was a valid question um because
that that is a really important relationship and we want to make sure that whoever is chosen um that they also um can form a a good relationship. Thank you. All right.
How you doing today? Good so far. I know, right? Long time no see. uh if you wouldn't mind just giving a a brief introduction name and and uh whatnot and then we'll kind of get into the the questions but I want to give everybody
an opportunity to hear as we make this transition to the next person. Sure. My name is Michael Rodriguez. I am currently the chief assistant city at chief deputy city attorney for the city of Palm Bay. I bring 28 years experience in local
government law both in the public and private sector having served both in a county function as well as in municipal function all in the state of Florida. Thank you very much sir. Member Nelson, same question. uh and we spoke about
this to me uh having some litigation experience is invaluable and hopefully will save the city some money. So can you tell us about your litigation experience? Well for me litigation and in a local
government context I like to always give the story that I was basically given a baptism by fire. I will never forget my first day on the job as an assistant county attorney with Martin County. That would be Stewart south of here. I'm a law I'm a do-eyed lost recent graduate
of Vermont law. I sit at the desk and I had the deputy county attorney walk into my office. He throws down a large complaint and he says, "Uh, oh yeah, Michael, by the way, in 30 days we have to argue that the motion to dismiss." Um, and I'm like, "Oh, okay. So, I guess
I have to draft a motion to dismiss." Uh, three years later, I actually tried that case in circuit court. Um, and it actually was a case of um, renown. Actually, we had a a property owner decided to build a mega McMansion right up against the busiest public beach in
Martin County, Bathtub uh, bathtub reef. It's actually a really popular beach, which got washed away during the storms in 2005. And he sued the county for a nuisance because his wall was five feet from the parking lot. Um, so we did try that case. So that was my start. Um, I
assisted in litigation in Martin County. Some of the most preeminent land use litigation and cases in the state of Florida actually emanate from Martin County with one of the most famous ones being the Pinerest Lakes case which involved the demolition of an apartment complex that was built in contravention
to the county's uh, comprehensive plan. Uh, but my litigation experience is also not just limited to local government law. I mean it's it I also um during the interim when I wasn't necessarily practicing local law local government law and land use law uh especially during the foreclosure crisis um I was a
partner in a national law firm uh managing attorney managing associate attorneys and representing mortgage servicesers during the foreclosure crisis. Um I have that distinct or maybe undistinct distinction of actually physically trying cases in 40 of Florida's 67 courouses. So I became very
familiar with the entire um state of Florida. So I like to think of myself having as having a varied law practice um in regards to litigation. My litigation has wound down um since those days, but it is an experience that I have um both in either if I need to um
manage uh litig litigation for this city. Um I still do um litigation in terms of uh code enforcement foreclosures uh for Palm Bay. recently completed. We've completed I completed four just because that's what I've been
given by the city. Uh four foreclosures which we actually took to judgment and I'm very proud of the fact that we went from filing our complaint to receiving final judgment from the Bvard County Circuit Court. It took us six months. Three of the four properties were actually sold at auction to third parties resulting in the properties
actually now becoming rehabilitated and actually now becoming functioning in um properties that can be rehabilitated, resold and now becoming actually uh increase in value and providing a tax uh tax basis for the for the city. Uh I did the same thing in the city of Ampka when
I was the city attorney there. So in that in that regards to that litigation as well as assisting in appellet work for my local governments um both in Valuchia County, city of Apka, Palm Bay and and in private practice as well. The last action I did in private practice
before I returned to the public sector was I represented a group of property owners in the city of Halyia down in South Florida in a land use challenge in which a apartment complex was actually being built in one of the last remaining large vacant parcels in the city of
Halyia surrounded by single family. Um, and we did not prevail because it is, if you're in the private sector, the way the law is set up, it is extremely difficult to challenge a comprehensive plan amendment because of the standard of review that is set up under the law.
But it still resulted we had a 3-day administrative hearing for before for an administrative law judge, the division of administrative hearings in which we did get some concessions from the city, and it was a contentious hearing. Um we did get some we we did not prevail but I
believe we did get some successful results. Um and for me it was a little bit uh rewarding because that neighborhood happened to been my grandmother's neighborhood neighborhood I grew up in. I used to ride a tricycle there when I was 2 years old. I recognize that neighborhood. I knew the neighborhood like the back of my hand. So to actually represent some family
members in this challenge um made it somewhat kind of special. Yeah. um and to introduce that aspect of the law that I'm so passionate about to them and then they actually saw what I did for a living and then they wondered how the hell do you do that? But um that's something that I I I bring that passion
and I would bring that passion here to the city of Titusville as your city attorney. So my question would be how would you determine if case should stay in house or go out? It's really going to depend on the complexity of the case um the uh
expertise that is necessary also depending on I would need to examine what it is and um while I was city attorney in the city of Apka there were many cases that came to us that the subject matter was one that we reviewed our insurance policy and that was
something that was actually covered under our policy. So those are matters that were then referred to our insurance council and covered under our policy. So while outside counsel was hired, it wasn't something that we had to hire outside counsel and covered by our legal budget. It was covered under the premiums of our policy and um and
therefore they took the lead and I supervised the the cases. I mean, two of the examples, we had a challenge to an a former affordable housing project. Um, that ended up being covered by our insurance council and as well as a uh there was a personnel appeal in action
that end resulted in a hearing for the division division of administrative hearings. Um, that matter was then ended up being referred to our insurance council and they handled the matter. So, those are two litigation matters that may on the surface appear that would then be referred out to outside counsel, but in the end fell under our insurance
policy. So outside council was handled but it did not incur we did not incur additional expenses because they were covered under our the risk management pool. So we were able to still use outside counsel but not incur additional legal fees. And that's something it would be an examination of what we have
as part of our risk management. Um just just such an examination of that there's ways that you can still accomplish what you need and save a few bucks. Okay. Thank you. Thank you member Nelson. Member Viscoso. Hi. Um, you might have just answered
this, but I'll ask the question in case you want to add anything to it. Are there any particular cases or litigation that are that you are uh proud of? Well, it's as I said, I did mention earlier the one case. I mean, it's kind of hard to be proud of something that
you you didn't win. Um, but uh there is something to be proud of putting up the good fight. And I believe I did put up the good fight. I put up an honorable fight. Um, as a personal note, what made it uh interesting was that council on the other side who represented the
developer happened to have been my my best friend from high school. He is my daughter's godfather. So, going toe-to-toe with my high school debate partner as opposing counsel. The first time and only time we've ever gone head-to-head. It was a nine-month process from beginning to end. And when
we finished, we both vowed to each other we would never oppose each other in court ever again. So, that was one case I was um very proud of. Um but also just the the day-to-day work of do being able to um to do the public's work um is something
that I believe I'm I'm very proud of. Um from the simplest things uh when I was in Valuchia County, one of the first things I did to to write the um write the resolution that would that staked uh the county's position in regards to their opposition to um the bear hunt in
2017. I was very proud to formulate that the um resolution and the arguments that the county prevailed. I was very proud of working on the um the Valuchia County's work with the US Fish and Wildlife Service in regards to um the uh
sea turtle habitats on the beach and the uh agreements and cooperation with the federal government that the county has which permits beach driving in Valuchia County as well as so it creates that balance to allow the residents of Valuchia County to still enjoy the beach and enjoy beach driving but at the same
time protect natural resources and what really people come and enjoy. to the beach, especially during turtle hatching season um to for folks to enjoy the uh the marine science center and those things. Those are those are aspects that I that I am um very proud of the work I
have done um in the past. Thank you. Um and then my second question would be we have faced uh some high-profile legal matters in recent years. Can you describe a time that you helped a city navigate a sensitive highstakes legal situation and how did
you manage communication between both the public and the officials? Well, as I noted when I met with all of you individually, um, one of the most important things if I were to become your city attorney is that I have always had an open door policy. I request I
don't want to say demand but I expect that each one of you would come to my office and ask any questions and be candid with any issues or any questions you may have sit down with however long it takes and we will break down the issue and I will break down those things
that are of concern to you and make those things clear um and concise to you so you can be able to eloquently espouse your position within the parameters and um and guard rails of the law.
So, that is that's my primary objective as a city attorney. Um as I normally as I've stated repeatedly and I state this everywhere I've ever been. As a city attorney, my duty is to provide legal counsel to the city council. I am not
the sixth council member. As city attorney, I cannot, will not, and will never dictate or create policy. I am your legal counsel. My job is simply to advise you, provide you the options. Advise you. If you take this route, this may happen. If you take this
route, this may happen. Here are all the options. You make the decision. I do not make the decision for you. I do not tell you what decision to make. It is not within my parameter. It is the city charter does not give me that authority. So, I would break those issues down for
you in order for you to to make a well-informed, well-rounded decision within the parameters of the law. In dealing with that with the public, it would be as best as I can to explain and to break down what will be
in regards to how my subject matter would be could be highly technical matters and technical legal matters as best as I can break them down. Sometimes the public sees a lawyer and they're they shut things down because oh my god the legal ease is
going to kick in. So, I have had times where I have I've had members of the public um usually I've been in places where it's the policy where the city attorney's office does not interact directly with the public because the city attorney is legal counsel for the
um city council for the governing body and we are not the legal legal counsel for the public. Um we are not the public's attorney. We are we are the at I this office is the attorney for the governing body and we represent the
governing body. Um but we will I I will provide certain um clarifications. Um I have had in the past some a member of the public once try to ask try to get clarification on an issue. I have sat down with them over the phone and
explained it try as best as I could uh in a layman's term to to try to clarify an issue to clarify it. Um I mean at the end of our conversation I think this this member this resident said you know I don't agree with you. I said that's fine. I don't want I'm not here to convince you or otherwise. Um but he did
appreciate that I took the time out of my day to explain the position of the the city council. uh he actually came to the to the next city council meeting and at public comment actually praised um my work with him and how I presented the issues to him in the in a professional
and concise and a respectful manner um and um I did appreciate that. So that's that's you know if if a member of the public is going to come and speak and is is looking for clarification and in a respectful manner um that would be
something that it's we can have that dis discussion as for clarification but I think the the primary objective and the primary goal is that I serve as legal adviser and legal counsel to this governing body and that is that is my job that is my role and those are my
duties under the charter of the city. Thank you very much, Vice Mayor. You've basically covered how you would deal with uh outside counsel from member uh Nelson's question. And if you want to
elaborate on it further, that's fine. But the second part of my question would be how would you measure the outside council's effectiveness? Wish I could make it a mathematical formula that I could say results divided
by costs equal success. Um, but I'd like to take into consideration the quality of the work, what I'm getting. I mean it's really it's comes down to unfortunately it's what am I getting my bang for my buck? Um a lot of times
uh I can be quite disappointed with colleagues in my field that and I've seen it happen where you know I receive a bill from somebody and I've got the time that I spent probably addressing an issue with them and they've build me 45
minutes for a phone conference that I know took me 10 minutes. I'm like, "Come on, dude." Um, I used to review bills from associates when I when I managed the law firm. So, I I know that the inner workings of business of the firm, but for me, it
would be I would best look to manage outside counsel if necessary. I want to see the results and that they can they can they provide satisfactory results in an efficient way and use the resources provided to them by the city which are the resources of
the taxpayers in an effective and efficient manner primarily. Okay. Without using a mathematical formula, how would you prioritize tasks across different departments which all seem to
have a high priority? You get that by tasks by different city departments. Different city departments. Yes. I mean it's going to depend on the subject matter that's presented or that's being dealt with. So I mean if I want to use an example, let's say we have a theoretical land use litigation
matter. So at this point I'm going to want to use uh as best as possible our own technical expertise inhouse because why would I want to go out and pay for experts if I have my own in-house experts? My planners know the
best. My my folks provide the best information I have. Um and there therefore can I use my folks efficiently? um at the best if I'm going to handle that in a litigation um context. Um and then can I minim can I
maximize the amount of time where I bring how to have my out outside council if necessary interact or have to use my in-house folks efficiently so that we don't waste time which is just going to churn the
clock and result in in expenses for the city that downright can be um unnecessary. Many of the prep maybe much of the preparatory work or the preliminary work can be done inhouse and then be presented to outside council if
necessary to finalize. And therefore that way we can we can have those costs which are a lot of the foundational work stay in-house where we can save some money and then have it be finalized by outside counsel. Perhaps sometimes the outside counsel, hey, they're the better
ones. They they look prettier in court. all the back work preparation work done in-house efficiently and to to the benefit of the taxpayers and then have the pretty face in court finish the job that that can be done efficiently. Those are various various hypothetical examples without going into details or
even knowing the facts. The best I can I can illustrate ways that we can try to be come up with unique and creative ways to try to maximize and increase efficiency in in regards to the legal department for the city. But I I would like to um minimize the use of outside
counsel um in a pop. I was a oneman shop. It was just me. And to be honest, in the three years I was there, I never hired outside counsel to handle matters on a part of the city. Now, I'd like to think that I did a good job advising the
city that we never got into major litigation that resulted in such actions that required us to go to outside specialized outside counsel. Um, but that was something that was something that I did pride myself in in keeping in running a tight fiscal legal ship for
the city and those times where we needed some assistance. Um, I mean, we found ways to have it done without incurring additional expenses. And I said the only outside council that we did use was our label council who it turns out is the same labor council that you already use
here in the in the city of Apka. So, if I were to become your city attorney, I think that would be a pretty seamless transition. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, member. So, yes. Hello. Um, and you may have already touched on this a little bit, but if you wanted to expand on it, um, can you
share an example of an ordinance that you drafted yourself or you worked on with staff at a city um that had a major impact on your community? And it could be one that staff presented and you saw there was a lot of issues and you needed to tweak it or it was something you
drafted on your own um that impacted the community. There's probably a lot, but if there's one that comes to mind. Wow. Um okay, two come to mind and I don't know why they came the first ones come to
mind. Maybe one will cause a chuckle. Um one was backyard chickens but maybe I I drafted I drafted two backyard chickens ordinance. One for Valuchia County and one for the city of Apopka. Now, one of the ones that was most interesting and and this was and I'll
call it interesting because in the end it turned out to be a great cooperation cooperative effort between the county and um and the I don't say the public but the industry let's say. So in Valuchia County we had a rash I don't
call it a rash but we had issues um with a blow up in the industry. what are normally called wedding barns. Um, so folks who want to have the agricultural wedding experience. So we had these wedding venues that were actually barns.
So what they did was they came in under the agurism exemption under Florida statutes. biggest concern we had, it was mainly a concern from our fire marshal was he was scared to death that we were going to have they're having these wedding receptions in barns on rural
areas under the state exemption which allows it to occur. Um, but these buildings were not properly equipped to handle 200 people at a wedding reception and these are formal wedding receptions. His concern was he was scared to death that we were going to have a um great
white concert, the concert that happened in Rhode Island where there was a fire at the venue and hundreds of people died. His concern was I am not going to have on my conscious someone's happiest day become their saddest day. So we did get some push back from some of the industry who argued no you can't
touch us. This is part of the right to farm act. But the language in the statute gave the local government some wiggle room. um actually ended up working with the attorney who represented many of these um AR farm owners and I said you I sat down with him and said Mark I think we can find some middle ground let's work together
and he's like you know what yeah Mike we can let's work together we sat down and we wrote and we created what was what's in Valuchia County called the rural event center ordinance created regulations reasonably reasonable regulations that allowed for these
venues to be created to still allow for flexibility to allow for these folks to develop their agricultural uses and have them have a side income stream usually on weekends where they can rent out their barns for wedding venue for weddings, receptions, other parties. Um
once we got that passed, the number of applications for reviews for these wedding venues increased and um they really flowed very smoothly and a lot of folks were very pleased that we the county it was a case where the county actually set up the regulations and set up a implemented a system that was very
efficient. Our fire marshall was extremely pleased that now he was able to keep track of these and make sure that the these venues were going to provide a safe environment for um to house all of these people and to avoid a disaster which he was worried to death was going to was going to be on his
conscious if he if we didn't have something like this happen. So that's something I was very proud of like you know since then I haven't gone to a jurisdiction where this has been an issue. This sometimes I think is more is more county specific especially in a county where Valuchia where you have a lot of um rural area and this came up
but that that is definitely something I was very proud of um and as I said involved cooperation with the industry but also cooperation with other local governments. I mean I went out and reached out to Elatchua County um and reached out on how they drafted and a lot of times I don't like to re there's no need in reinventing the wheel when it
comes to a novel issue. If if a constituent or a commissioner comes to me with a and you guys come to me with, hey, I need we need an issue we need to write an ordinance of, I like to reach out to my other colleagues throughout the state of Florida. Hey, you've done this before. What did you guys do? Uh, let me see. And, you know, I've got a
template bank from multiple jurisdictions in Florida on how things are done in order to apply them here and bring those forward because you don't need to reinvent the wheel. you bring that that wealth of knowledge that already um is in the state of Florida to to bring that bring that forth. So that's something that I would I
definitely bring to the city. Thank you. We might have talked to you. We had uh during our chicken ordinance, we had somebody come dressed in a chicken costume to our meeting when we were doing that. I I I can also I will eventually tell you this the story of the country music pigs in Martin County that I fresh out again I was three years
out of law school and when one of your code enforcement cases gets featured on the Daily Show I'm thinking oh my god what the have I done with my life and we're talking the Daily Show before John Stewart we're talking the Craig Kilborn Daily Show. So I don't know if that just gave away my age. Oh boy that's funny. Okay then my second
and last question. So, as I'm sure you might be familiar with, um, a lot of the briefings that we have are agenda items involving a land use change, um, which would be a legislative item, and then a reasonzoning, which is a quasi judicial. Can you just explain your approach on
how you would help to brief, uh, council members on that agenda item and what they can and can't do? Okay, that's my position on all these. Of course, you know, one I would advise you is and I know you're aware, but sometimes a refresher is, you know, not hurtful
that, you know, the difference between your legislative review for a land use amendment and your quasi judicial review for everything else basically your your reasonzonings, your site plan approvals, your development plan approvals. Um, I was going to say planning, but that's now changed. Um, under the under
legislative review, your decision solely needs to be reasonable. So, when you're doing a land use amendment, that offers you the most flexibility in whether or not you want to approve or deny because as long as your decision is reasonable, that standard is what goes forward if
someone is goes forward to challenge it. That's why, as I stated when I did my land use challenge in the city of IIA, it was that threshold that's so difficult to overcome if you're a resident to overcome that challenge to state that something is unreasonable, that it's not based on any data or
analysis. Um, especially when the courts have stated that the city can present the data analysis for the first time at the administrative hearing where you're challenging it. Um, and that hasn't been changed by the courts. As far as quasi judicial is concerned, my advice to
every local government I've ever been represented is that your decision has to be based on competent substantial evidence and that is primary. So whether you want to prove something or deny something, whatever that decision is, you have to base it on competent
substantial evidence. Now I've been asked before, well I want to deny something. How how do I get to that? Well, hypothetical example, someone presents their case, they've got a traffic study that shows that whatever this development is not going to have a negative impact on traffic. Well, if
there is testimony with a a contrary or another traffic study, for example, that shows that there is negative impact or there is some reasonable evidence that shows negative impacts and it is evidence that sways you and you believe it is competent, substantial, you're
sitting as a tri of fact and in a quasi judicial board. Then that then your decision if based on the evidence that was presented to you and that and that that evidence swayed you that would be sufficient to support your decision to deny hypothetically.
And if we move forward in a challenge, that would be sufficient enough for me as a city attorney to represent the city to defend such a challenge and defend it with such a straight face because when you're at the appellet level, the courts will not second guess the judgment of the local government as long as that
decision is based on that competent substantial evidence. So that's what you need to look at. Look at that evidence. look at and and and really advise and I would and I would advise any of you as again when you were coming to I would advise you look at what you look at evidence presented to you look at your
staff report see what you want see what you're looking to get to um and I can you know as legal counsel I'd advise you look at the questions you want to ask to get to what you need to do to get to the information and facts you need to get to
those conclusions in order to support your conclusion and support your finding that would be able to then withstand a legal challenge one way or another. And that's that is what your difference is between the legislative review when as a
legislative and the legisl you're just acting as legislators. You I mean it's almost the point you can just say I just don't like it under a comp plan as long as that's reasonable it's going to withstand a challenge. quasi judicial you have to it's almost like at a trial you have to whatever you decide has to
be based on the evidence that's presented before you and it's and it's and it's really evidence that's on the record you can't just come it can't come out of thin air first of all thank you very much for uh all your answers I have about a minute 30 left uh and just to keep it fair for
everybody in terms of time so I'll just ask you one quick question you know how would you balance the legal requirements um with public opinion or political pressure. My tenant in regards to this, and this is for everywhere I've ever been, especially when I run my when I've run
my own office as a city attorney, uh the office of the city attorney must, and there's no wiggle room here, must be politically independent. The office of the city attorney is to provide legal counsel to the board of
city council. If it's a county attorney's office, it provides legal counsel to the board of county commissioners. It is not the the role of the city attorney to get involved in any of the political discussions, political disagreements
um that were involved any of you. That's the political realm. That's not the legal realm. And I've I and I I shared this with all of you in our one-on- ons. If I'm the city attorney here, you pay me to provide you legal advice. And I am
going to be candid enough that if we are discussing a matter and a question dips into the realm of political advice, I've done it before. I'm not afraid to do it to tell you that's a political question. You guys have political consultants. You
pay. You ask them. But as far as I'm concerned, I am here to only provide you with legal advice. The issue of politics and political impacts, that's not for the city attorney's office to be to be concerned about. Thank you so much, Michael, for your time. Really appreciate you coming in.
Thank you. Yes. Okay. Well, we're actually uh to the point of an intermission that was scheduled, so we're going to take uh a break till 2:15. Welcome back everybody. And now we're going to get um up and rolling again
with uh Mr. Scott Mckenry as our next interviewee. And uh just again want to thank you for being here. appreciate your time uh with us this morning. Um city clerk, you ready with the clock? All right, I'm going to give you an
opportunity to kind of, you know, introduce yourself and uh just I know a couple seconds and we'll get into some of the questions. Uh don't forget to turn on your microphone there. Well, first of all, thank you uh mayor and council members for inviting me today.
It was a distinct pleasure. Uh, I'm going to forewarn you at this point in time my voice is fading. Uh, so if you can't hear me, let me know and uh I'll try to do my best and repeat the answer.
Thank you. And as you indicated, mayor, my name is Scott Mckenry and I'm here for the city attorney interview. Thank you very much. Member Nelson, Mr. Henry, we discussed this before and
to me having an attorney experience in litigation is important um important in determining how often we use outside counsel and of course keeping down cost. So can you tell us
about your litigation experience? Certainly. Um that's a great question. Uh I'll try to make it um somewhat short um because I I do have a somewhat of a a long work history. Uh I think what is
most relevant in terms of my background for this position is that in the private sector I worked for a large AV rated law firm in Orlando. The name of that firm
was Dean Meade. Uh Dean Meade also had offices in Bvard County which I think is is relevant uh also. But I started out at Dean Meade as a corporate transactional and contracts attorney.
And during my period of time there, which was 12 years approximately in total, uh I transitioned into the litigation area, uh and got uh a significant amount of litigation
experience. Um, after I I left Dean Meade, uh, I eventually decided to transition into local government. And my first, uh, job
in local government was with Orange County, Florida. Um, just as an aside, my wife and I are 30 plus year residents of Central Florida. We live we have lived in Orange County, Seino County uh
and also Valuchia County. Unfortunately, we have not had the pleasure of live living in Bvard County yet. But um uh after taking the job at Orange County, Florida, uh I immediately continued uh with my
litigation practice. There was uh one notable case in particular. I can't go into too much detail about the case because there are some uh confidential aspects of it, but the case
involved in univer involved Universal Studios as the plainif uh and Orange County, Florida as one of the defendants. Along the way, 35 additional defendants, property owners in Orange
County uh were added uh to the mix. Um so um yes I have a significant amount of litigation experience and that experience is as lead counsel first
chair at many hearings uh and trials and the the litigation areas are pretty much uh across the board. Uh, another litigation area that um I did at Orange County was uh eminent domain and I
probably had 25 to 30 eminent domain cases uh that I handled as lead counsel uh at um at Orange County. But um in addition over the years I've handled many contract cases, litigation cases,
personal injury cases. uh had one big shareholder derivative suit. Um so so yes, I I do have a a pretty I feel a pretty strong litigation background. Without going into detail, can you
give us a general sense of what the lawsuit was with Universal? Uh certainly. Um the um lawsuit with Universal involved Universal's
now closed wet and wild um amusement uh if you will and that was is located was located uh in south of Orlando and it was around a
lake called Sandy Lake. Um and um there was located immediately to the south of Sandy Lake uh property that had been developed by Orange County over the
years. Um I I forget the exact number of property owners, but um in the distant past um the city had granted Orange County a drainage easement so that
Orange County could drain from its property at that time still largely undeveloped into Sandy Lake. Um, and as those properties got developed, uh, there was more and more drainage
into Sandy Lake. And so the allegations in the lawsuit were that Orange County and the other property owners uh, in Orange County to the south of Sandy Lake were overburdening was the
term that they used uh, the drainage easement. The specific I'll just hit them real quickly. The specific counts involve trespass, nuisance, uh a request for injunctive relief, and
uh there was also a inverse condemnation amount uh or account. And u there were millions and millions of dollars uh at stake in the the lawsuit. Uh luckily over time uh I was able to negotiate a
very good settlement uh on behalf of uh Orange County uh and the property owners. I want to ask a followup question. You mentioned that the law firm you worked for was an AV braided law firm.
Yes. for those who don't understand that I that that's a that's a great question and I I was going to clarify that during my prior answer but uh the uh AV rated uh rating is issued by a company called
um Martindale Hubble. I believe at one time they might have been associated with West Publishing. I'm not sure about that. Um, in any event, they are the number one
um attorney rating organization uh in the United States and obviously they rate uh US attorneys. uh and receiving a um AV rated AV rating
from Martinale Hubble is uh deemed to be very prestigious and law firms themselves can get that rating and individual attorneys can also achieve that rating. Uh just as an aside uh
individually as an attorney I also am AV rated uh Martinale Hubble. The A stand uh portion of the rating is for legal ability. The highest being A. Uh the V
the second letter is uh for uh professionalism uh and um making and and uh basically uh ethics uh ability. So the law firm that
I work for as well as myself have that highest possible rating AV rated. Uh it's called pre-eminent and then they have a little another twist to it uh with some numbers after that. Uh it's
it's based on a scale of 0 to 5.0. Uh the law firm and myself were both rated 5.0 out of 5.0. Thank you. And if I can ask a follow-up question. Um, you spent time in the Merit Island
office. Can you tell me how long what you were doing here? That's a double question. How long and what were your duties at that point? Um, with respect to the Merid Island
office office, my duties were litigation related. uh once again uh and it involved uh a number of different lawsuits uh in Bvard County and that as you know
based upon your background Bard County is part of the 18th judicial circuit along with Seminal County and by the way I also handled litigation cases in Semino County. Uh but um to get back to
your question in Bvard County uh I would say the period of time that I handled litigation cases there was probably four to five years. Uh there were a number of uh significant cases that I handled there uh with some of the the well-known
judges in Bvard County who later on based upon their their abilities uh became judges uh at the fifth uh DC district court of appeal. Uh so they are they were very well-known competent judges.
Thank you. Um I think that's all I have for right now. Thank you very much, member Mscosio. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for being here. I know you had a long um trip. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. Um on top of all your qualifications,
you are quite funny as well. So, I appreciate that. Um so, uh you might have already um touched on this, but uh are there any um particular cases or litigation that you are proud of?
Well, certainly the Universal Studios case um very proud of that. Um actually, um you know, as I said, it involved uh storm water drainage. And so I I learned about not only storm water drainage, but
also water law and um permitting. I worked with um some top storm water drainage engineers on that particular case that that assisted me uh greatly. Um and I I also learned about
um uh certain uh things that could be done with FEMA uh with respect to water issues. And so uh the ultimate settlement in the case which is a matter of public record uh was via something
called a Lomar LOMR letter of map revision. Uh and so actually it was Universal Studios and their wellrespected engineer that filed the necessary application materials uh with
FEMA uh and FEMA granted that applica application to be able to increase uh the level of water that could be drained into that sandy lake. Thank you. Um, my second question is,
can you describe a time when you helped the city navigate a sensitive or a high stakes legal issue? And how did you uh manage communication um with both the public and officials? And if I can add on to that, um what what do you feel
like is your responsibility of um communicating with the public? I I may need you to repeat part of that question, but I'm going to launch into uh the first the first couple of questions and uh probably uh I should
just um stick with the the universal case for for ease of reference. Uh that was a very sensitive high-profile case. Uh it was tried in the newspapers primarily by Universal
uh and in general as uh was our practice. Um Orange County did not comment on pending cases. It's just not something uh we did. Uh but um the um
the case had a number of different aspects to it besides the actual legal case. And one of the things that made it tough was um you know Universal is a great company. They're a great contributor to to Orange County, very
important to our to Orange County. So at the same time that I was handling uh litigation matters, um universal um hire management was negotiating with um Orange County administration
including the mayor uh Jerry Demings uh and the the county administrator which when the case started was very wellrespected uh county administrator Each and Donnie and that changed to Byron Brooks by the
time the case was um finished up. But um Universal met with administration as I said, but uh myself and also my boss uh the county attorney, Mr. Newton also met with the mayor and the county
administrator and the applicable departments on a regular basis uh to make sure that um we kept them a breast and got their input u on the case. Um so did I answer all your
questions? Okay. Thank you. Thank you member Moso. Vice Mayor Cole. It's a two-part question and basically what experience have you had working with outside counsel because you know
you're being officer too and in working with outside counsel how how do what method do you use to rate their effectiveness? That's a great question um council member and I'll try to do my best. Um
while I was working in the private sector, uh I had the opportunity uh to work with outside counsel uh and the the litigation I was handling at
that time uh was in a jurisdiction that I was licensed in, but the litigation also spilled over uh into another state, different jurisdiction. uh and although I became was able to
handle certain things in the other jurisdiction it's called a prohog viche uh admission uh I needed to retain outside counsel uh and the there were two or three cases that were filed in
this other jurisdiction so I worked with probably three or four different law firms um to help me with those cases take the lead on those cases. You know, initially I um researched uh their their
backgrounds and abilities and also uh Martindale Hubble ratings and also whether or not you know they were board certified in uh particular areas in the other jurisdiction. Uh but um I made
sure that um I kept a breast of everything that was happening in those other cases. I had access to the particular clerk of court site to see what was being filed. I could download
uh pleadings and other documents that were filed. Um I also required that they supply me with written reports, short written report um on a monthly basis so
I could keep uh a breast and also have uh my superiors who were u officials in this particular company, management in this particular company uh made them aware what was happening. uh especially
from a financial standpoint because a lot of times I find with outside counsel uh you really need to keep a breast of exactly what they're doing uh and um otherwise um the the fees can can get
out of control. And the second part of your question, I'm sorry, did I answer both parts? Um, council, how do you measure the effectiveness? And I think you kind of went through that in in in your first answer. Yeah. Even though I wasn't licensed uh
in general in these other jurisdictions, I have the litigation background across a broad array of litigation cases where I can tell whether uh something that u outside council is doing is going to
have a positive effect in in some manner either to get the case settled or to position it for for trial or maybe some interim uh uh pleadings like a motion for some rejudgement
u so I can tell but uh you know whether the money is being spent wisely just based upon my background uh but in addition as I said I also um feel it's incumbent upon me to keep my
superiors like I would with with you all informed on a a regular basis and going back to Universal Studios uh case. That's exactly what we did with county administration. We we had we had um um
staff meetings uh we had mayor staff and we also had county administrator staff and um on a regular basis at Orange County. And during those meetings, u a lot of times I would u make sure everybody was brought up to date on the
the universal case. And it was sort of the same way. I'm getting off on a tangent a little bit uh with Sunrail. Uh I think you know from my uh resume I was also the Orange County uh lead attorney represented uh representative
on Sunrail uh the working group in particular but I also in addition attended all the Sunrail public meetings. Uh I met with um uh you know folks from uh Valuchia County, Semino
County, uh city of Orlando and Oyola County uh to keep them uh to u to help try to move Sunrail along. And then in in like kind I made sure that uh Mayor Demings and
others at Orange County were kept informed as to the status of of Sunreil. Okay. And my second question is hypothetically let's say you have competing legal needs from different
departments within the city. How would you prioritize those different needs within the departments? Well, I think in the that's a great question. I think in the first instance
it might uh matter what kind of legal need it is because um not always but uh sometimes um if you're talking about um say a construction contract
uh versus a lawsuit. Um lawsuits in general, you know, might tend to be more time critical w with respect to certain aspects uh than say a you know design build
construction uh contract which which I also handle. Uh but uh putting all that aside um I'm I'm one to uh want to open up the lines of comm communication make
sure that everybody who would have a a stake in one matter or the other uh that we have a a full and open dis uh discussion with all those parties and I'm able to get feedback uh from all of
them I think would and and I would also discuss things from my my standpoint or if I have an assistant who can help you know um their workload might you know be discussed as well but bottom line um my
preference would be to if we otherwise have the competence would be and and the ability and the time would be to try to handle things in house And it would be only if you know we didn't if it was a
niche litigation area or something like that and we were swamped with other more important things then uh that same discussion or discussions might need we might need to talk about hiring outside counsel.
Thank you. Thank you member Stoker. Yes. Thank you. Um okay so I'm up next. My first question is um can you give an example of an ordinance that you either helped to draft or that one that came
before you because of staff and you saw significant issues with it and maybe had to make some changes or suggestions that had a significant impact on your community. Um, certainly that's a great question. I appreciate the question. And the
ordinance that I'm going to talk about is uh another matter that I'm uh that I handled at Orange County that I'm very proud of and that is the um affordable housing uh ordinance uh that I worked on
uh with the housing uh department and a person by the name of Mitchell Glasser uh who's been around forever and has just uh um has tremendous mendous knowledge in the the housing area. But to back up just quickly, Orange County
passed uh and approved a uh housing for all plan. And as part of that housing uh for all plan, which was uh an attempt to address affordable housing issues um in
Orange County, uh the county uh commission and administration decided that um they wanted to set up a affordable housing trust fund. And this was a a separate trust fund. Uh, and
there were going to there weren't going to be any ship monies, state housing uh, monies that went into this trust fund. So, um, Orange County was committing uh, out of its general revenues to put $10
million uh, a year for 10 years into this housing trust fund to be uh, administered.
uh in accordance with a separate plan uh that would be um agreed upon um I think it was every two to three years uh and and then presented to the county commission and they would pass on the
plan and the expenditure the funds that were in the trust fund. So I was extremely uh proud of that. Uh and uh I worked um very closely as I said with the housing department. Uh it went
through a number of different iterations iterations as we we moved uh along. There were a number of different changes. I also have a a financial background. I have an MBA degree and LLM and tax. Uh but that was another reason
why I got involved with the u the housing trust fund ordinance because there were a lot of different financial aspects uh involved with that. I hope that answers your question. Yes. Thank you very much. And then my second and last question is as I'm sure
you're aware part of uh our agenda briefings with our city manager and city attorney will be going over the agenda. And one of the key items I would argue that we get on there a lot is a lot of land use changes and resonings. So can you explain your role in we have one coming before us on the agenda. It's a
land use legislative item resoning quasi judicial item. How would you approach uh prepping each individual council member on what they can and can't do? Well, uh I would first of all get familiar with um the development plan or
the resoning or the PUD uh whatever that was being comp uh contemplated. And just as an aside um in one of my jobs as u working for um it was actually a variety of smaller uh
local governments uh not Orange County. I was the attorney for the planning commission uh for two of those local government uh entities. So I would I would sit you know on the dis during the
planning commission meetings and uh help out uh the planning commission members. So, I would get familiar with the particular development plan, resoning, whatever it was, uh to be able to um you know, inform
um the um the city council uh members of what was going on uh the the issues uh and um whether Yeah, that's about it. Yeah, thank you very much. again, really appreciate your time and and our
conversation that we had. And I know we only have a couple minutes left. So, I just wanted to ask a quick question. How do you balance uh the legal requirements with public opinion or political pressure? Well, um the the legal requirements uh
need to come first. uh I think uh and as you and I talked about in in our meeting uh I'm basically a legal advisor. I don't make policy. You all you all make policy. So the policy decisions are up
to you. Uh I, you know, may be called upon to review some of those contemplated policy decisions. uh if I see that there's legal issues uh then I will bring those legal issues to your attention
uh I will also try to attempt to uh quantify u those uh legal issues and the potential risk from those those legal issues uh and uh but ultimately it'll be up to
the city council to decide to to move forward or not. I I also in the past I've um if called upon I've suggested alternatives uh that might help to assuage or even
avoid some of those u legal issues. But um um yeah, that's pretty much how I would handle the situation. Well, thank you very much for your time. I know we're uh almost out of it here with us. Is there any final thought you want to leave with us?
Uh no, once again it was a pleasure being uh here today. It was in fact a rare real uh honor uh and um yeah I thoroughly enjoyed meeting with each and every one of you. Thank you.
Thank you very much sir. Hello. Welcome back. You just need to push the little button. Great. Thank you. You are live. Um Again, we kind of went over everything. You're unfortunately got to be the last person to come before us. Apologize for that. Uh if you
wouldn't mind uh giving uh your name and just uh a brief introduction and then uh the council members will ask questions. Great. Thank you. Um good afternoon. My name is Jennifer Cockcraftoft. Um I am a board certified attorney in local
government law. 21 years experience in local government law. um University of Florida graduate law school and um have represented uh 10 to 12 municipalities in my career as well as about six years as a felony
prosecutor. Um I also have represented um other entities through outside council. So I have public experience and private experience. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Nelson,
Jennifer, you know what I'm gonna ask. One of the things that concerns me is we're using uh outside counsel a lot and so my question to you is can you describe your litigation experience to
us? Okay, thank you. Um so I started my career as a felony prosecutor as an assist senior assistant DA in Atlanta. So I did have about six years practice in um criminal litigation. Um during
that time period I tried about 60 cases. Um since moving back home to Florida I um have been a city attorney essentially. Um, in my role as a city attorney dayto-day, we generally handle
a variety of matters, as you know, from council agendas to contracts. And um, as a city attorney, I've handled small claims matters. I've handled foreclosure matters. I've handled nuisance abatement matters. Generally, complex litigation has been handled by outside council,
whether it's covered by the budget uh, of the city attorney or else through the carrier. be it um I've had carriers such as PGCS and the Florida League which have handled tort actions in 1983. Some city attorney's offices do have uh more
than one attorney and in that instance um sometimes you can have your litigation in house. Um currently I'm in a position where I'm a one person office so there's not a lot of opportunity to be able to handle litigation. Um thankfully knock on wood don't have a
lot of it. Um but it has been my experience that generally you you may need somebody who's an expert in a matter to handle and that may require outside counsel. Okay. So my second question was going to be how do you decide what to keep
inhouse and what to send out? Well generally after essentially more than 20 years experience in this you can um have a good gauge on what's going to be a complex matter. I can tell you that in the past two years um I've had one um
litigation case that needed to be sent out that wasn't handled by the carrier and um during my time at CMI um where I worked for 10 years um we had just a few that went out I will tell you um
I don't generally rely on outside counsel but it is good to have that as your backup if need be particularly in a small office. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Member Nelson, member MCOSA. Thank you. Good afternoon. Good afternoon.
Um, so we've had some high profile legal matters in recent years. Can you describe a time when you helped a city navigate a sensitive or a highstake legal situation? That's the first part of the question. And the second part would be, how did you manage communication um to the public and also
to officials? Um, let me think of a high-profile one. Um, well, we have a a a certain um person that may come before council frequently um and is involved in
litigation with us. Um, so I personally have a policy um that the press is generally just best handled by a public information officer on behalf of the city and that the attorney's office isn't generally in the business of providing that um public information.
Um, so for me getting involved in a in a high-profile matter would not be my role other than to guide the council and staff. And so that's how I conduct myself behind the scenes and um I feel
that's the best route legally um to make sure that the interests are protected and the city's best represented. Thank you. And then my second question is do you have any particular cases or litigation that are that you are proud of?
Um I mean, I'm just proud of my, you know, career overall becoming board certified and um, knock on wood, not having, you know, gotten myself into trouble along the way. Knock on wood. Um, I'm not a
highprofile type of girl. I think I'm um I'm professional. I conduct myself with decorum and provide the best legal advice that I can. Um, I'm proud that I've, you know, been able to have a successful career and um continue to do
that without, you know, being in the news. Thank you. Thank you, Vice Mayor. in your role as uh city attorney and I think you've you you've touched on it with uh member
Nelson, but how do you deal with your outside counsel and how would you go about rating how effective they are? The outside counsel for you as a city attorney. For me as a city attorney, um I would
generally um so I I do have quite a few connections, right? having be a city attorney for a long time. Um like Mr. Stokes, you know, having dealt with him prior, um we have a lot of um connections through the local government community. Um and so I would only rely
on somebody that I trusted and knew their work product. Um I currently use an outside counsel for complex matters. Um and um you know I definitely am involved in the strategies and the the
pleadings and review them before they get filed and give my input on everything. So I definitely have a lot of control over that. Okay. And uh if you have uh competing legal needs within the city departments
and they all seem like they're high priority, right? How would you prioritize those? So, I have good communication um line with the current city management and that's how I've worked throughout my career and it's good to consult with upper management to make sure that those
needs are prioritized, right? because you'll need to prioritize council's needs and upper management and then also staff's needs and you have to be able to prioritize them and make sure which are really ultimately the highest priority for the city overall not just what staff
in that instance may believe. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you vice mayor member. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Um, so my first question is, can you share an example of an ordinance that you worked on
primarily or you drafted? Um, or maybe one that staff presented to you that you saw might have a lot of legal concerns that you made edits to that had a significant impact on your community. Um, so I've worked on an awful lot of
ordinances and along the way. Um, I, you know, recently we did, um, a new mixeduse one. Oh, and also, um, uh, garage apartments. Um, so I did have a lot of concerns on the restrictions
that they wanted to do. Um it would have had some implications with respect to short-term rentals and those preeemptions that we face. Um so I definitely had to be involved a lot on that. Um I believe it had come from a consultant initially that had prepared
it. Um so I had to make a lot of changes with respect to that as it went you know from first reading and planning board review and then council's first and second readings. So follow up to that. So how did that process go? Was there a lot of push back? Uh, were you able to come to a
consensus by the end of it? Sorry to cut you off. No, you're fine. You're right. That's kind of the general idea of what I was wondering. Right. I generally work well with staff. Um, you know, we we have um good working relationships and respect for each
other. I feel it's important not to get emotional and you know we're doing our job the best we can and there's no need you know I mean we can have different opinions but at the end of the day you know you work to find out the best result for the you know community so you
know it nothing serious really I mean so you were able to get your changes into the um ordinance and then was there any push back from the council members or did was it a did you come to a consensus with we all had you know we came to
consensus we we can have dis you know um differing views but you know as long as you communicate the rationale behind it clearly and explain to them what the law is how it applies what the risk and the implications might be if you go out on a
limb um in the wrong way um but I you know I haven't had a lot of push back on that I I did face a scenario when I was outside counsel with push back on some advice that I gave, but ultimately you just give the advice. Whether they choose to take it is ultimately up to
the client. Yes. Thank you. And then my second and last question would be, as I'm sure you're aware, part of what we deal with on council um is our agenda briefings with the city attorney, city manager, and a significant portion of that, I
would argue, are land use changes and resonings for our community. So, say we have one on the agenda. It's a land use change which is legislative and then a resoning which is quasi judicial. How would you approach briefing each council member on that in your one-on-one on
some of their options and what they can and can't do? Well, I I presume you handle these relatively frequently. Um but I'm happy to meet with council whenever you'd like to explain, you know, how the process
would work um with respect to the the reszoning and the land use change. um and the different ways that it would be evaluated under your comprehensive plan and under your code of ordinances. Um and I'm happy to meet with you on all
agenda items as often as you like. Thank you, Member Stokl. And again, thank you for for being here with us today. Uh how would you explain a controversial legal position to the public in plain language? Well, any opinion that you'll get from
me, I hope that you would find that it would be in plain language. Um, that's the type of person that I am. I am pretty succinct. Um, I will send you opinions that are, you know, I try to cut to the chase. There's not a need for
a whole lot of words if you don't need them. Um, I find a lot of times people don't read all of that anyway. Um, but with respect to the public, I don't feel like it's the city attorney's role to be the spokesperson for the city and to provide that information to the public.
I feel like it's my job, if I'm your city attorney, to give the information to management or the appropriate person for dissemination through the appropriate channels. I personally don't feel it's the city attorney's office, but if given either direction, I'll talk
to you about it. Thank you very much. And how would you balance the law with public opinion or political pressure? Right. Well, the law is the law generally. Um you know um
we face criticism as public officials obviously because we have constraints and you know they exist in our statutes and the law we know. Um and we can just do the best that we can. I you know it
it does become difficult at times but that's you know what we're here for as public servants I guess. Um the law constrains us and um we just do the best we can to serve our communities and our um citizens the best we can within those
constraints. Thank you very much. And we we still have some time left. So is there anything you would like to share with us as we you know start considering uh who who we're going to select? Thank you. So, in that lines of being succinct, I guess we got extra time.
Um, no, I just uh uh thank you for having me here today. Um, it's been, you know, a pleasure to be here. Um, and I hope that, you know, your city continues to move forward in good ways. Well, thank you very much. We appreciate
you being here. Thank you so much. city manager, we're about to move into 4B. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Now be appropriate to address any of the public comment cards. You got any for me, Miss Chen?
Uh, yes, sir. We have three cards. The first is Jesse Wright. Good afternoon. I'm here as a developer. Excuse me. I'm here as a developer because I've had some experiences with the previous uh
city attorney. Number one is that um I understand that we all have to respect the sunshine law. I I get that. But the fact is it is important that any developer, not just me, to be able to
sit down with the city attorney and also with the mayor and uh and and the city manager in the same room to discuss a project, whatever the project is. But in the past during Dan Diesel time there's
been time that the city attorney basically asking the mayor to not talk at all and sometimes the view is that if the city gives the developer comments in
terms of what which direction the project can actually move forward that would be helping the city and also the developer. The second point that I'd like to talk about is that I've had these type of meetings in multiple
cities in Birmingham, Alabama, in Crossville, Tennessee, in Nashville, Tennessee, in Fresno County, in uh California, in Jackson, Mississippi, South Haven, Mississippi. These are
cities are with population of about 500,000 200,000 1.3 million in n in Nashville and it's been very very productive when a developer sits in a in a in a room in a conference room with
the city manager with the uh city attorney and also with the mayor to discuss things. This is not the oldfashioned way of the developers, you know, paying money under the table or anything like that. Those those days are gone, you know, long gone. The other
thing that I think you should consider is that the city attorney should look at the project in terms of the size. You can't just look at opening a restaurant, which is like about 4,000 square feet versus 200,000 square feet. So I think
there should be some discussions in terms of how much time is going to be spent on this type of projects and you you drive on the freeway you see a semi-truck it's a fairly large truck not just a small little little one and then
the last thing is the um I hope that there is no I've got 20 seconds I hope there's not going to be any issues in terms of city attorneys feeding any other attorneys outside in the past experience that I had and I'm not
insinuating to anything is that there was a situation of the uh um city attorney with the um his brother. Thank Thank you, Mr. Ray. Thank you. City clerk
Tony She I wasn't sure of the format for this Shalot Tropic Street. So what I'm going to do is just go over the notes that I had as I I read through the applications resumeumés um and start with the person that I think is definitely a no for this
city is Cochroft. She's not willing to locate. Where does she live? She's making $162,000 now salary but wants the full 225,000 um working in Sebastian. I still wonder
where does she live? And she sees that Titusville is viewed as an opportunity for advancement. Um, unfortunately, she worked for the firm that has um my least favorite attorney, Razanka, from 12:22
to one um of December of 22 to January of 23, one month. Why even, you know, what was that about? And she wouldn't answer whether she has a driver's license. And lately, she's jumped around a lot to different jobs. um tr so her
work history ser shows serving developers in all the different places that she's worked whereas treasure on the other hand has been in West Palm Beach for over two years as an assistant attorney um and before that she helped citizens not developers she worked for
the Florida Rural Legal Services and the YWCA working on domestic violence cases and she spent uh some time doing work for um child care centers, making sure they were compliant with state law. So, she has a work history of serving
citizens. Now, as for the two guys, I don't know how you're going to decide between them. Rodriguez was very personable in his resume. He was very forthcoming and very um very very upfront about things. And even though he
left Apka after threatened with litigation, he is still using the mayor of Apopka, Brian Nelson, as a reference. So there must be something more to it. And I'd like to know about Mckenry. He worked with Orange County with the EPA and the Florida D regarding the Clean
Water Act. In what capacity, whether for the county for clean water or for the um state trying not to? And I wonder also, has the staff met with these candidates? they're going to be working with them a lot. And um those are just my issues. I
would like to see you please do not vote for Cockcraftoft. Thank you. Thank you, city clerk. Uh the next speaker is Dwight Severs. He has a handout. For the record, my name is Dwight
Severs. You don't need to pass that out. a resident of the city of Titusville and former city attorney. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. The appointment of the city attorney in my mind and believe is one of the most important opportunities and responsibilities you have to guide the
course, destiny and reputation of the city. Obviously, this is your decision. I make no recommendation. My input to you is from my perspective as representing 50 different council members, seven different city managers,
and never been asked to retire or resign. I speak to you as well as an AV rated lawyer for more than 30 years as a city attorney who has been nominated as a finalist as city attorney of the year
in 2005 with the Florida League of Cities. I have spoken at the annual conference of the four elite cities and have had an off an article published in the city attorney's magazine. As an attorney, I've been recognized by the
Supreme Court from my probo service. And in addition, I have acted as and served on as the chairman of the disciplinary committee and the 18th districtal circuit for lawyers. for the salary range you have posted for this position.
You should expect an attorney to have the experience, expertise, and ethical and legal abilities to handle most all cases and not outside counsel. That attorney should competently represent you and the city and show independence
and leadership and not live by the motto staying under the radar and to speak up and protect you and the city and to live by the rule of law. Likewise, your attorney should have the kindness and
compassion where appropriate to communicate with citizens. Last Tuesday when I was trying to finish up some remarks which are applicable to your attorney's selection. I have no agenda other than what is in the best interest
of the city. I believe in high ethical and moral standards, transparency and communications with your citizens, including the fundamental right of fair play and following the rules. As a person and as an attorney, I believe in
my baptismal vows, which are to resist evil, injustice, and oppression, and to believe in the basic tenants of my faith, which is to do no harm and to do all the good you can, and to love God and your neighbor. And Sarah, since I
have 30 seconds, one of the interesting, if you had asked me that question, what was uh one of the interesting ordinances had an impact upon the city? I had the burden of responsibility of drafting a pornography ordinance of the city. The
city for all these years has never had a bottomless, topless established in the city limits and you have to blame me for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Severs.
City clerk, is that all the cards? Uh, yes, sir. All righty. Well, now I'm going to open up the floor for discussion. Uh, Mug's Council and I'll Member Nelson. I'll start. I have to say I enjoyed
meeting all the attorneys. They were great. Um, and there were several of them that would be great for our city. However, my number one pick was Scott Mckenry.
I'm sorry. Um, I believe he has a lot of litigation experience and litigation experience in dealing some very high-profile cases. Um he has the experience in dealing with
data agencies. Um he comes from an AV rated law firm he's AV rated and I'm very and he has a tax degree which basically means
instead of sticking running away after law school graduation he stuck around for taxes. um which in my opinion you have to be crazy to do that but uh he stuck around and got his
LLM in taxes. So I'm very interested in his take on the affordable housing plan. I would like to see us look at it. I think he has the temperament to lead us
in a good direction. So that would be my number one pick. Thank you, Member Nelson. Vice Mayor Cole, I have uh well I in my mind and at the end I'll tell you what my number one pick is, but I have a
system where we could use it might make us easier in our selection where we fill out a form with our number one, number two, number three and number four selections and then we add up the number ones, the number TWs and number threes and then we come up with the first. But
we also have someone in the event that the first can't take it, we get the second. And my my number one choice is Michael Rodriguez. Thank you, Vice Mayor Cole. Member Stokel, I'll go next. Um, this was, I'll be
honest, a tough decision for me. Um, I this is my first time going through it and I didn't really know what to expect. Uh, I had very good conversations with all four and I was thoroughly impressed actually with our candidates. Like I said, I didn't know what to expect. We didn't get as many applicants as I had
anticipated. So, I I didn't know. Um, and each of them throughout my interviews I realized has a wealth of experience. Um, which was important to me. And then I started thinking about as a council member, what do I think would
help me the best to help our citizens and lead the city? Because at the end of the day, um, and some of the applicants alluded to this, um, what is what is the role? That was one of my questions I asked in the one-on- ones. What do you see your role as a city attorney? Um, and primarily at the heart of it, I
think, is to give sound legal advice. I'm not a lawyer and I need somebody to give me the best uh, information that's as thorough as possible um, to make good decisions up here that we face. Um, so a couple things that I was looking for.
Who do I feel confident in protecting the city, protecting taxpayers and citizens like as a whole? Um to give me enough information to do that. Uh who do I trust to give me legal advice? Um who's not afraid to fight? Um one of my questions I asked which I thought was
interesting. It just kind of randomly came up. Um I had a question on like there's a scale, you know, attorneys that no risk whatsoever. Please do not do this. I don't want to go to court versus over here. Bring it on. Let's go. And so like where do you fall on that scale? So I wanted to see where where
they felt comfortable on that. Um another question I had related to and how I was trying to figure out u because I think sometimes we ask questions to dig deeper and see deeper things. Uh understand if are you able to understand varying perspectives to come up with good solutions. So, not only
perspectives of citizens, of staff, of the legal field, of council, but even when we all disagree, like how do you bring that together and how do you give sound advice? Um, and how confident you are and understanding your role as a city attorney versus um
be versus being part of us or being part of staff. What where does that fit in? And do you understand our role and what we're doing? Um, and that came up from I think all candidates as well as they are the legal, we do the policy and I think that's important. So, um, like I said, I I'm was very actually pleasantly
surprised with most of my interviews and my top choice was Michael Rodriguez. Thank you, member Stokol. Moscow. Thank you. Um, I had the pleasure of having m uh, Mr. receivers sit in with
me and we asked um a lot of really tough questions and a lot of um hypothetical questions which was really helpful. Um I was really happy with all of the applicants that we did get. Um my top two would be um I think we'd be
lucky to have either Mr. Mckenry um or Miss Treasure. Um, but if I had to pick, my number one would be um Mcken Mckenry. Well, I guess it leaves just me. Um, you know, again, can't say enough about um
Joe and his team finding us a good pull of applicants. I know we saw the number and it didn't didn't sound like a lot. Everybody was like, what are we going to do? Uh but as we've gone through this process, I think we realized that, you know, it's hard to pick and choose uh when you're you're separating, you know,
some of these bodies of work go back quite a long time, you know, and what do you prioritize over uh this or that or the other thing. So, um you know, I I would definitely be okay with Mr. Rodriguez or or Mr. Mckenry um with
that. Um I think Mr. Rodriguez if no offense to Rob down in Palm Bay, but you handle Palm Bay, you handle us. Um, and that's a bigger city. So, um, I know it's on TV and he's going to see that now, but you know, still we're not Palm
Bay. So, um, I I would definitely be excited to have either one of those two as your city attorney. And in fact, like I said, it's it's splitting hairs. I think there's a lot of great candidates, excuse me, in the pool here. Um, at the end of the day, it's uh what council
wants to do. You know, again, I don't think we're all going to 100% agree on this is the person given the great candidates we had. Uh, it's just again, sometimes it's personality. Sometimes it's this experience versus this one experience. So, um, you know, if
somebody wants to make a motion for anything, you can do that. Member Nelson, um, I agree with member Cole. It would be good to be able to rank them. Um, so my motion would be
to rank Mr. Mckenry as number one and then let me go through the list. That'd be your rankings, right? Well, I was just gonna start out with number one
and then go to number two. What my suggestion was that we write them down on a piece of paper, put our names on them, pass them forward, then add up the number ones, the number TWS, the number threes, the number fours, which I think would be a little bit easier.
Yeah, this is just a suggestion. And then if that is the motion made and we are going to do the rankings, then are we all going to then make the top ranking binding? So that would be the only challenge with with that vice. The other option could be, sorry to
interrupt you, ma'am, could be we make a motion for a top choice and then we make a second motion. If that person can't be there, we make another motion for a second choice. That's what I was thinking. I would agree with that as well. I don't like the idea of ranking to four and five.
I don't either personally. Okay. Well, I would probably be ranked fifth because I'm not an attorney. You would get ranked fifth. I know. Yeah. Uh, so my motion would be that number one should be Mr. Mckenry. I second.
I have a motion and a vote for Mr. Mckenry uh to be the next city attorney. Uh, clerk, can you call the role, please? Member Mscoso, yes. Member Nelson, yes. Mayor Connor,
no. Vice Mayor Cole, no. Member Stokel. No. All right. Member Stokel, your light was still on. Do you want to make a motion? Yeah. So, I was I for sake of what I feel like I'm hearing is I'd like to
make a motion that Mr. Rodriguez would be our top choice for city attorney and Mr. Mckenry would be our second choice for city attorney. Second. I have a motion and I have a second. Um, any further discussion? I city clerk,
can you call the role, please? Yes, sir. Member Nelson, I don't know if I want to be first. You're first. Um, no discussion. And I can I want to maybe
clarify maybe part of my thing again and I know member Nelson you and I have been on the council the longest here is what I think helped me to make this decision is having both the public and private sector when I said understanding various roles.
One of my biggest frustrations during council meetings and this has been in the past is I thoroughly want somebody that's not afraid of us potentially getting sued. I want to be prepared. I want to be equipped and know the risks. And we've had numerous times in here
where we've denied something and an attorney representing a developer gets up and says, "We'll see you in court." And I personally want someone that's not afraid of that if that were to potentially happen. And Mr. Rodriguez was my top choice of that would make me feel the most comfortable with that. So
that is why to clarify why that is my number one choice. And so can I say that the reason that Mr. Mckenry was my number one choice. Please share. Yes. Is one you have an AV rated attorney who
is not afraid to take on. Universal and if you take on universal, you got nerves deal. So he's quiet, but I think he he is one of those people that draws a line in the
sand and don't you dare cross it. So that's why he was my number one choice. I don't know if that helps or not. It's your vote. I mean, it's your vote at the end of the day. Yeah, it's your your vote. And I would also say it is a big difference
with the level of support with Orange County Legal Services versus uh what small department we have uh in terms of taking on an entity. I mean, I get that. Um, we're obviously, I think, all looking for a lot of the same things. It's just whether we saw them in that
particular interview, you know, again, is very subjective. But I I do have a motion on the floor uh and a second for uh Mr. Rodriguez to be the number one ranked choice with Mr. Mckenry being the second ranked choice. Um, so is there
any further discussion? Yes. So, I would like to also um kind of explain why Mr. Mckenry would be uh my number one choice and I think we are all looking for the same thing. I think it comes down um in a sense possibly to um
the the method of how it's going to be done because we want someone who is going um going to stand up and to speak up and and that was the thing I was looking for was someone with a um who would even stand up to counsel, stand up to me and say you're not doing this right or give me really solid legal
advice. And I do think Mr. Rodriguez. Um you would do that as well. Um I was happy to hear um that uh Mckenry was also um the member Nelson's number one choice because um my hope was also to default to since she is the one with
legal experience here. Um I do not have it. That's also why I asked Mr. Severs to come with me um to kind of see what their opinions were and um and so that that also helped me form mine. And so I kind of want to pay respect to what you've done and um and your experience
as well. To follow up with that, can you maybe explain what happened in your interview that made you feel that he was the best choice? Because I hear you mentioning Mr. Severs, but what I guess stood out to you that made you feel that it Yeah.
he would be able to take on that fight potentially. Yeah. So we we we actually did talk about the um Martinale Hubble rating and so we had a really good discussion on that and I mean he has the top rating um possible and so I think that is huge. I
think he has a a lot of um experience and I really love his calming presence and I think in this moment right now we do need um a calming presence and so we do need someone who will stand up for us but someone who um is calming and I
really sense that with him. um he just answered a lot of the questions. We went through a whole list of all of his experience. I mean, if you look through the list that you have on your paper, we went through all of um these questions. I did like that he did not want to get involved in anything political. That was
very important and um and I appreciate that and I heard that from many candidates as well. Um and just uh I just felt like he has a lot of knowledge and he has the desire just just to serve. Um, and so it was just a great interview. Many of the interviews were
great. So I think we have a lot of good options on the table. Thank you, Vice Mayor Cole. Well, I can justify that I thought I think both of those candidates are very strong candidates.
I after I evaluated that aspect of it, then I looked at personalities and how I think I would be able to interact with the individual. And that was my reason that I made uh Attorney Rodriguez my top pick.
Thank you, Vice Mayor Cole. Any further discussion? Member Nelson. I just think um I'm aware of the law firm that he was working for and they
are a super great law firm. Um I never knew him. I knew people within that firm. Um, and they are a very reputable firm. Um,
and like I said is he's a tax attorney. Um, which means that he's going to be even more the tune with the financial um, aspects
I think of our city moving forward. um and super interested in an affordable housing plan because God knows we need affordable housing and I think he brings
that to the table. So that's my reasons. Um I like Mr. Rodriguez. He's a lot of fun. Um, but I sort of agree with Megan in that right
now I would like us to have somebody calm. Mr. Mckenry reminds me of a guy I used to work with and when I would get excited
way back and go into his office, he was our chief assistant and I would be just excuse me, but bitching and moaning and mad as all get out. Oh yeah, there was one attorney in the office that just
could push my buttons and he reminds me of this guy and um I'll tell you his name, Wayne Holmes. And Wayne would just sit there and go until I was done ranting and raving and
then he was just very calm um and resolve the problem. And you know right now we seem to have a lot of uh people growling and uh not happy. And
to me, that kinder says a lot and brings down the temperature. So that those are my thoughts. Thank you, member Nelson. I think affordable housing sounds great. I
really wish we had the $10 million over 10 years to put in a trust fund. That that'd be nice. But any further discussion? All right. City clerk, can you call the role, please?
Uh, yes. And, um, if you'll allow me to clarify, this is for Rodriguez, number one, and Henry, number two. Yes, ma'am. That's the vote we're calling. Member Nelson, no. Mayor Connors, yes.
Vice Mayor Cole, yes. Member Stokel, yes. Member Mscoso, no. Motion carries. I would just like to say that I think we would be way ahead with either one of
these individuals because the majority of the interviews I had we had some really strong candidates and I don't think anybody should feel bad feel bad if they weren't selected because the competition was very strong and I really appreciate the fact that that they came
and they want this job in Titus So, I don't know if they can hear me, but I want to thank them so much for coming in and submitting their resumes and subjecting themselves to us. Absolutely. Thank you very much, Member Nelson.
Jeff, something especially subjecting themselves to us, but I enjoyed meeting all of them. Um, they were great individuals. Um, did a great job. So
absolutely. Thank you very much, city manager. Yes, sir. Congratulations to Mr. Rodriguez. Next step is to have uh human resources director sit down with Mr. Rodriguez and discuss the terms and conditions of an employment offer which we will bring
back to the city council for their approval on at the July 22nd meeting. All right. Thank you very much. Petitions and requests from the public. Seeing none, can motion. Wait, sorry. Uh, just to bring up what
member Muscoso said earlier, did we want to, since we do have Mr. Rodriguez here, see if he wanted to participate next weekend if he's available with the hiring of a city attorney to be able to interview or just at least offer that to him. City manager. City manager. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Sorry, they're getting mixed
up at this point. So, or just extend an invitation. Yes. I mean, I think it'd probably be good for them to be a part of the public hearing just like anybody else as uh somebody to to watch and observe. Uh but at the end of the day, I think they, you
know, while they do need to work well together, when we're looking at hiring somebody that's making, you know, 200k a year and years of experience, I hope they would have the professionalism to work well together, but at the end of the day, I think they're each different. They are city council hires and not one working
for the other. I would agree. Um, so I I don't want any idea of, you know, oh, I was hired before you type of thing or city managers sometimes have a tendency to bully city attorneys. So, uh, you know,
don't think that's going to happen, but just as a professional courtesy, if he can't make it or doesn't want to make it, that's fine. I just think that us as council, we should offer that to him to be able to be here. Yeah. Member Nelson, I would make a motion to dismiss, but I
sort of wanted to address Miss Shiplo's um remark. You realize the beginning of law school. They give us a problem and we have to be able to argue both sides of the problem.
So you see developers and attorneys come in for developers and then come in for the city. And it's the same with criminal attorneys. We can argue for the prosecution. We can argue for the
defense. That's our job. So, yeah. So, I will make a motion to dispense. We're second next week. All right.