Good evening everybody. Uh good evening. Good afternoon. I'm going to call the meeting of the historic district commission at 3:00 on February 12th, 2026. So we have present. Can I please have a
roll call? Who's present? Davis here. Go be here. >> James Dorian here. >> Hello here. And Mary Jane Churchville here. So, we have a quorum. So, we can start our business. Now, I'm going to take the minutes out
of order if I may because we have here um Tiffany, how do you say your last name? Enoa. Enoa. Enoa. Okay. Tiffany Enoa and her architect Johnny Dilva regarding the property at 401 Main Street, which
locals know as Patton. >> Mhm. So, um, >> so the fire >> the fire. So, I have a picture of this tragedy. >> Sorry. >> Um, Johnny has the architectural plans that he has presented. I'm going to let
him take the floor if you will, Johnny. Just give us a briefing. >> Well, we are in the early stages of the design and what we are presenting to you guys here is u is existing conditions. what we have at the moment. We are not
presenting anything that we are proposing. Um have Tiffany here to take also to just say what she intends to do with the property. Um we understand that the meeting
um any alterations to this house might trigger um >> requiring requiring confirmation or So, so, so that's that's pretty much it. I
mean, um, we do have, um, two letters from engineers, structural engineers saying that we cannot save whatever we have there. We have to put a new foundation and a new structure has to come in. >> So, you have structural engineer in writing.
>> You said that you wanted a letter, but the letters from the structural engineers that Thank you. So in other words, you would deem the houses nonbuildable from the concrete foundation. The whole the bones are no longer.
>> So you're going to go from a complete rebuild. >> There's two in here. There's two separate construction engineers. No, I have I'm sure those could be ourselves. >> Now you are the engineer or your white house engineer.
>> He's everything. I found cream of the crop. >> It's your home. Yes. >> All right. And you're just doing the engineering. >> Yes. I just wanted to get an engineering. >> Hi, Kathy. Okay.
>> We're just getting um we're talking with uh Tiffany and her archaeological. It's actually amazing. refreshing. >> Yeah. >> So, essentially the house has been the
structurally engineered structural engineers have designated the house. You can't rebuild it. I mean, you can rebuild it, but you have to take everything away. >> Yeah. Um, so Johnny and Tiffany have
Yeah. Yeah. It's not a concrete basement, by the way. Looks like little stones. >> Yeah. >> Crawl space stone. >> Yeah. Oh, it's a crawl space. >> So, we have the design. There's a big markup, but in your packets, I have
smaller pictures of it. And it's um what do you call it in this? Um elevation. >> Elevation. >> Elevation design. >> Elevation. >> So, what is your plan today? >> So, this is what you're seeing here is what was previously here. Mhm. I'm really just trying to put the house back
to be honest. I'm not really trying to change much. Um if I can possibly like the facing the backyard, maybe a bigger window there cuz it was only just one small window. Um but that's really it. I'm really just trying to put my house back together.
>> So you So you just want to restore to its original? >> Yeah. I wanted shutters, everything house is not a concern for us because it's not visible by the public. I'll put a big window back.
>> And um the rule is which we have printed here. If you're not going to change the design in any way, you actually don't need to come before us. Okay. So, we're not at final design yet. So,
there is like a little measurement or something. Does that constitute a meeting? >> Cuz this is just pre existing plans. We haven't actually mocked up any design plans, but I'm I'm going to keep it the same. >> Yeah. But um >> I think it would be I think it would be
prudent for us to have a copy for our file to put in this. >> Yeah. >> And um and and the reason I say that is because we want to keep our inventory of what's happening to these properties as the years go on. We're keeping files. So if we could see that, that'd be great.
Um, and I think that I just want to bring this to everyone's attention that um, there's a piece of paper and yeah, Cliff's got it. Oh, everybody's getting ahead of me. So, it says the reconstruction substantially
similar to exterior design of a building structure or exterior architectural feature damaged or destroyed by fire, storm, or disaster. Provided such reconstructions begin with a year thereafter, carry forward due diligence.
Okay? And that means that it is not subject to our review. Is everybody clear on this language and where it stands for Tiffany and Johnny? >> It just has to be the same material like it was cla wood.
>> Well, you know where that's going to go. I know. So, um That's the other thing. So, you've got your design. >> Where is I misunderstood that. Where is that going to go? >> Where's what going to go? >> You just looked at Mr. My question.
>> No, no, I understand. But what did you mean by we know where that's going to go? >> Well, because if they want aluminum siding, there's a group that doesn't like aluminum siding. There's a group that does. Are you doing aluminum siding? Right now we have vinyl sighting probably >> or vinyl or any siding versus collabor
because I will tell you >> that across the street you know where the settle shop well there's a new bridal shop has been okay so there's a new bridal shop from and they wanted to do siding of a non-natural material
we had to compromise with them for what we could see from the street and what was on the other side. So, we made them put clampboards on. I mean, that's a position. Did you want to speak to this, Lisa? >> What's on it now? >> Wood is is wood siding, right?
>> Yeah. Some It's all different. >> There's three. There's the main house and then two additions. So, >> yeah. All different. Some of the new >> um the older part of the house was wood and then it was like the newer material, which is like the vinyl on some of the sides. But like there was vinyl there
>> I think in certain areas. So what does that mean? >> I'm not sure actually. Don't go me. That's what we have to think about that. So madam >> go ahead. Excuse me. So, Mass General Law 4C as well as the towns and historic
district bylaws >> in that statement that you read simply says substantially similar >> in exterior design. >> So, it's
letting people back to to what priority. So if it's substantially similar in design, which it sounds like they're rebuilding it to that, >> they do not need to review from HDC to
have a public hearing and all that. So >> we're not talking about design, we're talking about material >> criteria. So that that might fall under substantially similar. >> Well, she's saying that there was that >> four different kinds.
>> Yeah. Um, so would that just mean for the front that you would want? >> That's the front wood. >> Yeah. But you see the peeling. The peeling is like the wood. I know it's like hanging off now, but like how it's like deteriorating. That's all. >> So I wonder would that could that possibly be that
>> um composite type material, but actually looks like that Hardy Boy stuff. >> Hardy. >> Hardy boy. >> I don't know what it is. It looks like literally dancing with wood. >> The hardy board isn't pressed board. The
hardy board is a of a hard concrete. It's an actually >> that's a good point. It's a great practice. >> So now the point being as she brought into the meeting which I understand >> you've got breakouts on this house. So
there were different phases and different construction points where Mr. Manhattan had done some work. Philip had done some work. So >> you've got vinyl siding, you've got wood. So you are you going to allow them
to either do wood or vinyl? >> That's what we're talking about now. >> Correct. So in other words, we're narrowing it down to either allowing >> Yeah. wood or vinyl. All right. >> Well, I think that for this for the purposes of this meeting, we just wanted
to have an introduction. We wanted to give you, you know, your your question was what's the process? How you know, we want to do the right thing. Mhm. >> So, I don't know if we want to we want to revisit this after Johnny's
finished and and Tiffany has confirmed what she wants from Johnny and then just bring it back for and put in a quick application and we'll just because we don't need necessarily need to do a um public hearing. >> Okay. But I would like to have a record of the
actual finished not the finished product, but your finished product. >> No, that's fine by me. In a few more weeks, we we're going to be working together, you know, to get materials down, everything down so we have actual blueprints, so then we can go ahead with this build. So, I think in a few more weeks, we'll be more prepared to present to you guys what we're actually doing.
Okay. >> This is just like very, like you said, I want to do everything so that I'm >> right. It's the introduction, preliminary, meaning where everybody stands. And I think it's important to know that if you're not going to change the architectural features >> that you don't have to come to us for that.
>> But the >> in the meantime, I'll find out from historic Claire. Can you add anything to this? >> No, I'm kind of spinning at the moment. >> Okay. Now, why are you spinning? >> Because there's nothing concrete happening.
>> Are you one of those? >> Okay. She needs to see the finish. >> I understand that. >> Yeah. No, we do, too. and we and we were both on the same page with preliminary meeting. >> So according to this, we are allowed to if we're not changing the exterior
um apart from a few windows on the back, which is not going to address. >> Yes. >> So then we can put in the application and then that goes through the process of the building permit review for everybody. Then you guys can >> have the say there,
>> right? Well, we can talk about >> the boards versus final and that business. >> Well, during during the permit application review, you guys will have the opportunity to say we'd like to keep, you know, >> yes, we will say exactly and that's what
we did. If you look at that bridal shop across the street down there, um we lengthy. We don't want to keep you here forever, but um we agreed that there would be certain areas the front particularly would be the clab boards
and then the sides they could do the um alternative. >> Sure. >> Because the the district is concerned with the visual keeping in play with the historic aspect.
>> However, we we have not historically been demanding because we understand today's got some great products, great new products. We understand that they that there's a cost factor involve in that. So, we'll have another discussion and
>> we can talk. But we really appreciate you >> giving us a heads up that you're ready to go so that we can keep, >> you know, a breast of what's going on and we can ask questions of the historic district from the state, too. >> I want to do it right the first time.
>> That's what that email said from John and he just wanted to Yeah. And I really appreciate that and I think every single member does too because a lot of people come after the fact and that's >> yeah I don't want to do that. >> Thank you James.
>> So as long as you understand the the historic district has to be sure that the front of the house per se the facade does not deviate from where it is now in existence. M
is it not isn't it easier to define the preference of what the historical district would want in sighting. Your our preference is a natural wooden siding
>> which is what was always used back >> years ago. Even in that period of time they did not have vicid. Yeah. So wouldn't it be best or in our >> well I think >> point right now to to make sure they
understand the facade cannot deviate. So when the plans are are brought back in front of everybody here it'll be reviewed. We'll see that there's no deviation in that. Correct? Cuz that's really the only thing we need to see.
The only thing they need to come back in front of us are the plans that they will submit to the building inspector which is going to define vinyl, wood, front, windows, sizes, arrows, etc., etc. And they do understand it cannot change. It
has to maintain the original front facade. And as Mary Jane told you, if you want to put a big window in the back, that's yours to do. So with the HTC, it's the front of it that is the most crucial and I think we should be able to
put in our preference would be for it to be in wood. >> Well, of course. I mean, I'm wearing refer back to the settle shop, which you said the front of it is wood. >> Mhm. >> No, ma'am. >> Yes. vinyl vinyl.
>> The subtle shop rework that was done there is not in wood. It's vinyl. >> So, I want to throw the commission off and we'll leave it at that. >> J, you're right. >> With the subtle shop, >> it was divided into two sections. It was
the retail side and then the little rental side is actually the old historic house, the home. So, the commission allowed vinyl siding on the retail side,
but the little home part was um kept as well. >> They didn't strip it back. In other words, they did not have to strip it back, but the other areas they had to strip it back and it and it was you allowed vinyl >> on the retail side. >> Yes, ma'am. I know. I saw
>> it was vinyl, but that part was kept in the stamp. So you there's no question of course our preference would be wood because that's what we represent as history authentic but I I suggest that when you're ready
bring application come back and we'll sort it out in the meantime I will get information from the state to see >> where they stand too and and you can always go on the state site too because they have like blogs and information where people are talking back and forth to the to um that commission What what
is it that you received from the state? >> Uh just what they have um a question and answer. >> Excuse me. >> Clarification >> clarification on what other materials are acceptable and how we go about it because it depends on
if we're going to give a certificate of appropriateness, a certificate of um what's the other one? Would it be would it be a waiver? Ultimately, they would have to come down. Would it be a waiver they would need to deviate
>> to go to viol? Well, we wouldn't call it a waiver. We would we would make the motion and it would be a part of our motion that's accepted by the board and it will go on their application that we give to the building inspector. So, I'm trying to give it gave it the same and maybe
>> that would be the best. That was the best bet. You got it. Yeah, we don't have to labor this. I just wanted to make sure they realize >> cuz the facade cannot deviate actually wood and vinyl but >> and the preference to what we are doing
our mission >> is to maintain as close as we can cuz as Mary Jane said a lot of this comes I mean if you're going to do it in cedar >> compared to vinyl apples for oranges so we understand that
>> but we would also say our preference on hopes. >> Yeah. >> If you can bring it back into what it originally was in >> they get it, which is which is what I want. >> They get it. >> Oh, I I have a question. >> They get it. They got it. >> No, they get they understand. It's been
said. I do have a quick question. Are you doing anything with the the garage? The garage, which is not garage. >> No, not anytime soon. I got to Okay. So, that's not his house. Yes. >> Yeah. You sure? I there was plans to, you know, fix the windows and stuff like that. It's broken windows and stuff, but
not anytime soon. So, I'll be back. >> All right. >> But thank you so much for coming. >> I appreciate you. I appreciate it. And you'll see me again. You have any questions, just give us a call. Wish >> you get in this.
>> I hope so. >> Thank you for coming and taking the time. I appreciate your time. >> Thanks. Bye. Bye bye. >> Hi guys. Hi. Hi Lisa. Thank you. Um glad I'm not very
>> I know. That's good. Thank >> No. >> Okay. That was really I really appreciate them getting in touch with us before I know. I mean I mean it just >> it was flagged by the building inspector.
>> No, I know. probably >> they had to come here and it was flagged by the building inspector. >> We had a lot of like flagged but >> so our next >> But it's working though. That's the point. It >> It's working. >> The flag's working.
>> So that's in itself a good thing. >> Did we ever do roll call? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we did. And you were talking about Gabby. Did you put her down? Did you write? >> I did put her down. Thank you. I will >> and thank you for saying they get it.
>> They get it dead. >> I don't need I wanted to make sure they understood that is a we as a commission >> JB >> but I appreciate that. Okay. The second thing I'm going to
switch back to accepting the minutes for January 2026. And I believe everybody has a copy of those packet. Excuse me. in the jacket. Jacket
should be nothing. They don't have them. >> That's Jan >> January 8th. That's when they were. Yep. >> And it's just one page, too. >> Yes. One page. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'll let you >> I'm not a big uh person on writing
everything that it really says now cuz you don't need to know what everybody >> I know Gab is much better at that than I am. >> So I hear the me does everybody have a copy of the minutes cuz I have an extra one. >> She's gone. >> So >> you gave me an extra F. You're not the
only one. But >> Oh, I gave you I don't need it. >> Oh my word. Okay. Sorry. >> Well, it's good to have an extra one once in a while. >> Okay. Motion made by James Soran, seconded by Laura Shiffren to appoint Maria Milikin as the HTC rep as CPA
committee member. And I believe she sworn in. >> She did. >> I think she is. Yeah, >> she's pretty quick on that. Mhm. >> And then the second thing was um the article that we wanted to submit for the town meeting on changing the well not
changing but ratifying correcting the bound confirming that the boundaries are what they were at the original inception and acceptance. And the second one we talked about was amending the uh article
for the correct M uh Mass General law reference from 40C to 40. 40C is a district commission historic district commission and 40 is historic Gulf Commission. >> Mhm. >> Remember that last time?
>> Okay. >> Mhm. And >> so that's only being changed in >> amended >> our paperwork or our >> Yes. >> rules. It's not >> It'll be in the bylaws. It'll be in the bylaws. >> Okay. >> If the town accepts it
>> and then we have >> So it's got to go to town meeting for the change >> cuz it's a change in the bylaw. >> Yeah. But did you send the >> No, I haven't sent it. I'm going to I'm going to send it >> and it would be No, you haven't seen it yet. So >> take the C out. >> Yeah. and just 40
>> 40 >> which is store. >> And then the last thing we talked about was >> Yeah, it has to be >> the postcard. We were going to talk about that today, but Maria's not here and she has one that she wants to submit. So, I think we should move that
until next meeting >> when she's here and she can talk about her postcard. >> What is the >> It's out to the public to give them the process and that we're here and where they're at. Do they know what desk jerk they're in and stuff like that? >> Now, this was some of the extra stuff
you had her start to do. >> No, she volunteered to do at the last meeting. Yeah, she did. She >> She's a good volunteer. >> She she Yeah. So, but here's the thing about that. I talked to um the treasurer and the treasurer said that yes, they do
allow you to put information into the tax bill. However, we have a situation where not everybody in town is going to get one. only those people in the historic district. So they have to check with the third party people that they use to separate
>> to se to see if they will separate and include it and if there's a charge. >> Okay. So let's say that they don't because that's it. >> Okay. No, we won't. >> So then would we go forward with the Bose Guard on our own? >> I think we would have to. >> Okay.
>> We would have we just take the postcard, >> get it stamped. How many how many? Um >> there's 100 properties. Some of them are >> Oh, yeah. But some of them are um like the church, the Methodist church, church. Um >> what else would be the Baptist church,
the fire department? >> Fire museum. >> Fire museum. $79 is that what it is? Do you know this? >> Well, it's 100 and stamped as well. Oh, no. We would use the We use the And postcard. It's a postcard. That's right.
which is >> so for all three districts there's there's only 100 actual >> properties >> when you say properties everything's included the church is a property the museum is considered a >> yes >> I thought there was why would I think
there was more >> west towns is huge the center is only around the common >> and the harbor is what from the bridge from spalding street are you the first You see this property?
>> No. Macaffies is >> Macaffrey up the hill. Okay. And then all the way down to >> Macaffry, which is the one right in front of the fire station. >> Right behind the fire station. >> So that's where it starts. Your house is >> clear at Claire's. >> You you are in the historic
>> and that goes all the way >> to >> beyond Shepherd's >> I don't think shepherd's in it. Shepherd's not in it. Not that far. >> You're talking about the old KO house. Yes. >> No, that's not it. >> So, West Towns and Ashley. >> Yeah, West Towns is huge. Everything
from Patton's garage all the way to the VFW >> to the Roundhouse, George Sullivan's old house. >> We are that much bigger. All right. >> West Townsen's always been agriculture
and antiques. I don't think it would be cost effective to have them 3500 tax. >> Yeah. For what it's going to cost for postage and everything. That's not >> Yeah. And they would, you know, they
would say, well, it's going to be 4 hours of work and it, you know, >> $50 an hour. Well, I I put in the request, you know, just >> when she said yes, we do it and then she said, "Yeah, but we do it for everybody across the board,
>> right? >> Every single solitary property." And we don't need that. No, we don't. >> So, we were a little bit different than >> Okay. >> the board of health. >> Yeah. >> So, can I have a motion to accept our minutes? I'll make a motion to accept the January minutes.
>> Second. Anybody? Second. >> Shouldn't we also make um have a discussion about the fines and violations as well? I know we missed it. >> It's on our agenda, but it wasn't on the minutes.
>> Well, right. So, oh, >> wasn't it in there? >> Changing the board meeting at time. We made a motion to discuss it today. It's the very last one. More >> motion made by Mar Maria Milikin, seconded by James Dory to have
discussion about changing the board meeting day and time at the next meeting. >> Correct. >> Yeah, I was asking about the fine. >> Oh, I'm sorry. The fine. You're right. So, um, we didn't talk about them though. No, we did just briefly though
>> and that's where Laura >> and I was understanding that it was going to be brought up to this meeting. We were going to >> But where is it? right here. Number six. >> Oh, did I make a mistake? I should add that. Is that what you're telling me?
Okay. So, under Okay, corrected. So, I can correct the minutes. Okay. >> To add >> the fines for um violations. >> Just brief discussion that we would move into the next meeting >> for violations.
>> So, we're all going to do this, right? >> Okay. to addition I as amended. I know the rest voted by >> Excuse me. >> I said Laura Shiff and I as amended. >> Oh, okay. Laura for the motion to amend.
>> Can I James Joy second? >> Yes or no? >> Anyone else have any other discussion on amending the minutes? Can I have a vote, please? >> Music is yes. >> Click G. Yes. >> James, yes.
>> Laura Shepern, yes. Manager Church, yes. >> So, I will amend them and get them back in the next meeting. Now, the last one is setting the fine. All right. Laura and Geraldine
work and they have a proposal which is a good >> We didn't It didn't work. I'm gonna tell you that Laura We had a very brief conversation and we decided to keep it simple. >> Well, you did kiss >> Kiss the Kiss operation.
>> Oh, keep it simple stupid. >> But you may have like I said Okay. Did you find a J? >> Did you give them a a copy? >> Yeah. Everybody should have a copy. It's just a little um word. Not really. It says just a starting point. Of course it is. >> I did not get that. Can I ask?
>> Sure. There you go. >> And this is through the brief discussion between >> Jerry and I took the task. >> Okay. >> Meaning you took the task. Isn't it a discussion for the whole commission?
>> Yeah. Well, yes. You have to have a draft now. Okay. Make sure >> it wasn't special or it's in my computer.
I'll just use this. So, um, this was what if Jonah and Laura came up with, we're going to have a discussion because I would really like to put this to bed today. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. >> I think these are very reasonable.
>> So, this is my first meeting. We've been talking about it. >> Exactly. Exactly. So, this is great that we have it. So, I love the idea of the first violation being a warning. >> I think that's fair. >> I do. >> What do you think, Claire? >> Mhm. Yeah. I mean we right this is
assuming or not assuming that they got their postcard the second violation is $100 and the third round to five and the fourth is $1,000. >> Well it depends because that's your failure to submit application for appropriateness. Okay, that would be the
I got those from you and the inappropriate signage use. And then I said, I don't know what other violations you would be looking at cuz you've had more experience around the table with what you heard didn't get done kind of thing. And these are the two these are
the two biggies. >> Those are the two biggies. >> What else? I've seen >> clear. What else have you seen? >> What do you mean by the two biggies? What are the two biggies? the signs and the not submitting your application before appropriateness. What else have
you seen, Claire, that we could have inappropriate work done that was against, you know, like the bridal shop if it was all vinyl? >> Oh, if it had happened. >> Oh, okay. So, how would you say what
happened during that situation? So this is you didn't submit your application. That's one fine. The second one would be we issued you an appropriate certificate and you didn't follow
>> directions. So order of conditions, >> right? Okay. So that is failure to follow order of conditions. >> That's the second one. >> Yes. But I would say these should be daily fines and you get them. >> Oh, we have to put that in there.
>> Okay. So, all right. That's why I have like in the next one. Now, the sign a signage use you may not think is as severe or maybe it is. >> We had a circumstance where it was very severe. >> No, we still do, >> right? And so,
>> but not as bad as as it was. So, I don't I don't know how you want to revert back to the other one, but say the sign. >> First violation warning, which we know in some cases they'd never get a warning again because they've been warned
several times. >> And then the second violation, $50 a day per day until corrected. >> Third violation, $100 a day until corrected. >> And fourth violation, 500 per day until
corrected. And I don't know if you want to go further than that, >> but that's that's this is thrown out for to discussion >> and everybody else decide together what they because I don't have as much experience as you guys do with what has
sat in front of you, >> right? >> But but clearance right to add the failure to follow the order of conditions because that has happened many times. Remember, man, that was awful. >> Yeah. But I think those are the three
things that happen >> here to abide by order of conditions by order of conditions. Y >> now you might think that
that falls in the same category as failure to submit an application. >> No, because you would have received an application. >> All right. and that application. >> Oh, I meant strength. Um, first violation. Is that going to be a warning? Because
they already have an application and just follow >> question. That's a good question. >> No, shouldn't they shouldn't have a warning. >> They shouldn't have a warning because they already had specific instruction instructions. >> So, would you just start with $100 and go up from there? >> Yep.
>> Okay. and and in that you probably want to do per day until corrected. Per day. >> Okay. So there's no warning. There's no >> So there's no first violation, second violation, third viol. You you violated it.
>> You're in the soup. You owe this to give you that. >> Okay. So >> violation per day. >> Per day. >> So do you want to keep it at 100 or do you want to go higher? Why don't we try it louder to begin with come down?
Isn't that the wrong >> Well, that's on the record now, >> but it's not voted on. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I think it would be like everything else per situation that comes before you. The board has the set. You have the right to. And I think that in
any of these situations, like it was brought up at our last meeting that if a person just moved into town and they were not aware of or were given a slide on it that there was a historic district and they had to come for appropriateness, that's one thing. Um, but
you know, if you've lived here your whole life and you have 15 properties in the historic district and you've been told a million times, that's another story. But going back to this violation, um, $100 a day until corrected. >> Until corrected, they could
>> things get fixed really fast. >> Well, that's what I like about a high fee is that >> they don't blow it off. It's not a cost of doing business anymore. It's like, let's get this done. By the way, this does become >> a lean on your property if we pursue it at the court level, which
>> we did verify that. >> Yep. Yep. So yeah, I I I knew that because I know it from other properties where either they don't pay their taxes or there's a lean from for another thing by fine or violation. The tax collector has that
>> um before the building inspector is supposed to give out a permit. He's supposed to check with the >> tax collector to make sure that that property is clear. It doesn't affect all the properties that that individual might own, >> but just that property. >> But just that property.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think >> Oh, okay. So, it's okay. So, I hear what you're saying. So, this is it. >> It's not person. This is going to be an inrem judgment. It's going to be on the property only, not on the person. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Cuz it's sub it's on the property.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> It's not on the person. >> Got it. >> Or end of the year, whatever. David, should I >> fit in a question? >> Yes, please.
>> Your first thing that sticks out to me. Where is the old structure for fine? >> There is a wisdom. >> Okay. >> There isn't, >> which I understand that. I asked a question. I knew >> Yeah.
Are we bringing this forward for all future matters? >> You can't >> or are we bring >> I'm I'm telling you, you can't retro. >> Are we bringing this forward
with view and eyesight on matters that have already transpired and we're trying to to get them under control? Well, um, to be honest with you, >> it's a very question, >> right? Yes. And all right, let's just be transparent here. We're talking about
the old fruit store >> and honeyland, right? Some call I don't know >> wood. We've had those two those two signage issues have been visited multiple times >> with Sunny
>> with Sunny and the other one >> by not only this regime but prior regime when you were and when Lisa was. >> So this has been going on for five or six years and it's just ignored continually ignored. So however now that
you've brought it up I think we can't go back in a retaliation move. We have to give him a warning again and move forward with the fines. I think >> I think I would like to know that is the verbiage. >> I would like to think that this is
something that we need because it's going to be a deterrent >> and and tool for us >> when we run into situations. I don't want to name any of them, but I can refer to some where, by the way, be
aware of what you're looking at if you do not do ADC. >> Yeah. I mean, I >> I would hope this is being put forward as a tool to be able to keep certain aspects of the HDC in line >> and not being utilized to bring it
forward to get after somebody else. >> I have a question. Okay. Does this have to go in front of a town meeting? No. >> No. This is just a policy for us. >> Correct. Thank you. >> We have the authority according to 4C. >> Yeah. >> Correct. And I think all commissions, it
isn't a mandate should have a structure as is >> like conservation does. >> We just upped all of us and it has brought a lot of PE just like you raised your eyes. By the way, if you do not get
in compliance, >> there you go. >> And that and like you said, when you hit to the fourth violation, >> be on the website, the town website. >> And if you hit the fourth violation at $500 a day, you've got their attention.
>> We have to wait that long to $500 with the >> But what I'm saying is I I find that important. Because when you're paying $500 a day and they've got a 14-day repair job to get to compiance, >> isn't that a shame?
>> You get people moving a lot quicker. And we like acknowledge when you show them that what the results are in a denomination and what is coming your way, you get people's attention.
>> Well, that that's what the purpose of this is. I think that's it is to get the attention to get their act >> and to let them know we're serious about it. Well, if you listen to our meetings from the end of 2024
>> and through 25, but in the beginning we were I even said to you because fines had just been increased and and um >> permit fees had just been increased with uh planning board >> in 2024, the end of 2024, which is why I
mentioned it cuz it's happening. And I said, 'Well, if you're really having this issue all the time, you have the right to set a fine policy. >> So, and and this was as simple as I could come up, and I'm not I'm not pushing for any one of these numbers. I
want the board to decide on the numbers. Um, and I didn't know if there was a third one, and I think you're right on the failure to comply. >> Yeah. >> Um, clear, >> but if you keep it short, I think it's going to be more noticeable. >> I have a question though. So, you give
somebody a warning. >> Mhm. >> How long between the warning and the second violation? >> Well, we're going to have you mean if >> So, so you send out a warning on January >> 7 days to comply. >> It should take them more than a week to
go into the building office and get in it. >> Now, that's on the signage. You may want to put it. In other words, the first one if you understand from the second first one too because when you fail to submit >> okay
>> you have already violated you violation. >> In fact h um maybe there is no warning. >> Oh wait that's a good point. All right let me think that through. So maybe if you fail to submit
warning >> I don't think there should be a warning. You've already done it. Fine. A fine. >> A fine right off the bat of $1,500. >> Oh, >> but I mean because per day >> per day. >> Well, I mean, what can you do per day? You can't do anything about it.
>> I didn't mean to do the same thing Kia did, but I was I >> I saw you like go. >> But I mean, you've got you got to figure this out. You're Because you're right. >> Right. >> There is no warning. >> There's no need. Right. Right. You you've just plain old done it.
>> So there's no second, third, fourth. No, there's only one >> on this >> and then um >> so it's discovery discovery >> more substantial. I don't know if I could do 1500 but um >> well we're only going to get it once.
>> Are we going to get it once or per dam? I mean it's not like they can fix it in 10 days. >> No, it has to be it has to be a fine. >> It has to be a substantial fine so that they will not ever do it again. And this is on the website before and so it's part of the application process.
>> Mhm. >> Okay. >> All right. 2500. >> Okay. >> Well, I mean, >> but because they've already done it. They've already done it. >> But I But how long? Okay. >> They can't fix it. >> But but they don't know about it. >> Well, no. That's where we come in. when
when we find out about it, >> we any of these things we can wave >> or reduce, you know, or add something else in our discussion when we when it's brought to our attention on the agenda. >> I mean, we don't have to be Nazis about
this. I mean, you know, we can say >> garbage, >> whatever. So, we can say, "Okay, you didn't know, but we have to find you something. Give us $25." I mean, we could do that. Yeah. >> $25. >> Well, yeah. I just >> was an example. That was an example of
those who didn't know. >> They bought it. They're new to town. They bought a house. They didn't realize >> and they have a week to get it done, right? >> But they can't do anything. Okay. After that, Okay. So, it's 25. >> They have a week to submit an application. >> No, I'm 25,000. >> 25,000.
>> 2500. Sorry. >> No, but they would have a week to submit an application. And then >> But what good is it going to do if they've already done the work? >> Their work. What if they've already done the work and it's completed? >> For example, we had in West Townsen. >> This applicant was going to take a barn
down. She was going to remove the barn. It was an old barn, but it was attached to the house. It became an issue. We said, "No, you can't take the barn down unless you have a certificate that it is totally notable." >> They did with No. Right. >> And they did take their due diligence. I
was proud of her. She did a good job. They saved it. I know. They did say that and we push we said no you want to see the certificate that you can't have take it down and she couldn't produce the certificate but had she not come to us first and took the barn down what are
you going to do what >> okay so then yeah so then a substantial fine is >> I think warranted when you just >> if you didn't know what the rules were now she happened to know what the rules were cuz she was working with us with other parts of the house
>> the front and the sign all this business. >> But her initial problem was she was not able to get either the building inspector to deem it >> unrehabable, unable to rebuild it. So that would have been able to give her
the avenue to remove it and get HDC away from you, >> right? >> But you were saying if she had just done it, said, "Listen, I'm not going to spend the money to fix something that it could be fixed. I'm taking it down." That's when CLA says, "You owe us
$2,500." >> And then you think to yourself, >> "So what's the end game then?" >> Well, here's the problem. So she was going to take down the building, haul everything else away. She's looking at probably between two $25 and $50,000 and
we're going to charge you $2,500. >> You're getting to what I was trying to >> This is not a deterrent. >> Correct. Can I say something quickly? We have noticed and this is what brought us in our commission to where it is.
People would say it's $25 a day. I'll pay the fine. I'm going to do the deed. >> Exactly. >> We have to be able to implement something that they're going to go. >> Uh >> even if I do the deed, the price of doing that,
>> it hurts. >> That has to be thought, >> right? Let's say we tell them they owe the 25. I want to go a,000 25. All right, we're going to 25,000. Mine starts out at a,000. You pay already. How much now? >> No. I know.
>> You You went right at 2500. I'm like >> I want to know if you don't pay it. >> Does it go on? But we have to go to the court and it just has become a lean just sitting there. We'd have to go and file it.
Okay. We'd have to move it, but yes, it would become a lean on the house and um >> so in other words, just saying HD HDC would would put a standing mechanics lean on that property. >> I don't think mechanics lean, but yeah, it'll be >> I think it would fall under mechanics
lean. In other words, >> because we haven't done any sweat work. We haven't done any sweat equity mechanics. >> But anyway, >> I don't I don't think >> the house could not be sold until that paper has been cleaned. Look, >> that paperwork has been that lean has been removed.
>> Those people that own that house are going to pay HDC before they move. >> Yes. >> Doesn't it just get filed with the treasurer? And >> I don't know. I I I don't know. Massachusetts. >> Can I Can I go out and ask her if she's here? I'm not sure.
>> Yeah. Have her come in and give us a little >> because she she will give out uh a certificate of lean or >> Right. Right. Any attorney is going to review. It's like when you're going to buy a new house, that attorney is going to go look at that lean or you owe taxes
or whatever. >> A B there's a whole clear is this is this going to be considered that kind of a lean that automatically gets attached to your property like taxes. >> Is that how conservation?
>> We we've gone at it several different ways. Hello. >> Welcome. How are you? We haven't we would like to question you on leans. >> Leans. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So the question well fines we assess fines >> and they become a lean on the property.
>> Uh do we have to find we just >> we're in the middle we're in the middle of creating a list of of fines for people that violate the rules of the HDC. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, example, if you have a sign that's inappropriate,
you after we warn you, it's going to be a $50 a day fine until you fix it. >> Okay. >> So, let's just say you don't fix it. >> Okay. >> And we're running into 100 days. >> Sure.
>> How how does your collection affect our fle if we go to court or do we have to even go to court? So this is you're not talking about are you talking about um if
um >> are you saying they owe stuff? They owe taxes. >> No, it's not tax fines, fees, whatever. Fines. >> Okay. So this has nothing to do with taxes. >> No. No. >> Okay. Just >> collection collecting money for the town.
>> Okay. So this I'm probably not the person to talk to about that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I only um >> sorry. >> Yeah, you would be. >> But however, just a suggestion I if there is there might be a law that says if there are certain types of fines that
haven't been paid, um you can put a put it on their tax bill as a lean. >> Then that's what we want to know. >> And I think that's where you were going, but I just wanted to make sure. >> But you're not going that is where I was going. >> Okay. So >> So where do we Who >> So how does it get there? How does it get to this? How does it get on the tax
billboard or not? Um, >> you have to file a lean, a mechanics lean. >> Exactly. Like >> it's a simple procedure that people utilize to be able to lock up whatever assets they hold in lie of what they are
owed. It's a simple tactic they have used for years. I've seen it for years. That's why they have lawyers doing the purview of any title being transferred to another person. They've got to clear that paper. If there are two leans on
it, one lean on it, that paper is dirty and it will not clear until HDC is paid. >> What was it? $3500 now. >> Going up to 10. So the 25,000 she
talk to about getting >> the proper process to get it on the tax bill or not at any lawyer. any lawyer. You could refer this back to legal can tell you just what that is.
>> Once we have something that I'll have to look at it and I'm I'm almost sure that it does have to be some if it's not a mass general law already that might have to be a policy by the select board.
>> Well, it's a policy of of this board. The HDC can set up just like the conservation commission. They can set violation fines, whatever you want to call it. >> The board of health, >> $3,000 for a liquor violation,
>> $6,000 for something else. Oh, really? You know. Yeah. But that's a different business. So, that's a business. And they did something with the other one. >> Total different structure. >> And just Yeah. Just on my end, when it
if you want if a lean is to go on a tax bill, you know, when a tax bill gets mailed out, you know, we have our our accounting software and uh water like if it's a water lean or a tax lean that's already there and it kind of, >> you know, gets imported.
>> So, you can click a button and water >> and it imports it into the actual invoice. So, I'm not sure. >> Yeah. So do you have other Do you have other municipal link? >> Is a It is what you said. >> It's a municipal. So is one of your buttons that you push a municipal water?
Yes. Water because water is also in in Vadar or it's a file that we can import into Vadar so that it it prints on the invoice the bill the tax bill that goes out. >> Even better that's what I'm even better. It's just like when the building
inspector sees all this permit in HDC. >> Yeah. >> It's the same idea of flagging something that >> Exactly. >> But we're mostly looking for what the the proper avenue is to put that
>> that fine onto the paperwork onto the title. This is something he's reviewed plenty of. >> Yeah, I know. This is >> Yeah, I don't know the problem.
>> You need something from the court. >> I don't really know. I I just know that what I do for taxes is a lean and water leans like this aren't established. There's another words. It falls to municipal because it's owed to >> the town. >> The town, >> right?
>> You're sh >> You are. Thank you. Yeah. >> I only say that cuz I think your phone did the work. >> So, what are we going to do about how do we appreciate >> I mean I would I would >> I mean I would start with Karen my boss. So you could say look into how
>> you know what I'm going to start with the >> historic commission. Find out I'll ask them >> how circle back to do some research, but I don't know. >> But I think it's probably going to have to go through >> I don't know cuz we're not under the municipal. We're we're under the state.
>> We're not authorized by the >> still falls into the category. You're just recording a fine that was >> We want to know how we get to that recording. Do we go >> How do you know when conservation issues a fine? Somebody violated the
conservation restrictions, whatever. How do you collect the money? >> How do we collect it from the owner of the customer which I refer to? >> No, I meant what they said. >> Okay. First, second and third. After
that, it goes to a collection format and after that it goes to the stage where we're at right now. >> We did not get paid. Therefore, it's going to be recorded. the money owed to us before that property is ever sold
again. That's the I mean, you get cornered to that point because people will go, I I don't care. I'm not going to pay it. >> Well, they will. >> Yeah. So, again, if you want >> u me it it it's all about if you want it
on our invoice for the a tax bill, but I don't know how you get it to that point for this outside stuff. Yeah. The other the other thing that I that is a by law as well as general law you can have is for example if you go to apply for a building permit and it's done
electronically. There's a software and if if um it starts in the building department, but it comes to us electronically through this software and we look at and we look at it and look to see if the person requesting the permit,
if there's any taxes owed on that um uh property. If there is, we put it on hold. So that's kind of before the you even owe the money. You can't get something until your taxes are cleared. And that's a bylaw. You know what I'm talking about. So I'm just kind of
throwing processes out to you on how you get the money. Can you if you don't pay this, you don't get something. >> So in other words, just another >> Where does the money go if it's a municipality? It goes to the town in the general account. >> Yes. Correct. And it ends up in free cash. >> Oh, it ends up in free cash.
>> Any money that doesn't that's not that's above and beyond taxes and what's been projected uh goes to free cash as far as I know. If it's a revolving fund, it might not. So if there's, you know what a revolving fund is? >> Have one. >> Okay. Okay.
>> So in other words, any fines we get goes to the GH the general. >> Yep. >> Right. >> It's not like we could put it into what we would prefer to go to the WPA fund which we pay out for classes. >> Not if you don't already correct. If not if you don't already have an existing
special revenue fund. >> Okay. >> All right. which we have discussed. So that we should be able to keep it in our >> That's your avenue. The master laws say that you can set up special funds for certain things. >> Well, okay. Good.
>> Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> Yeah. Good luck. >> Well, I I think by saying all that we heard, I think that it's correct that once they've done it and they're not going to fix it and repair it, they're
going to have to pay the fine. So, I think that that should be part of the >> So, that's the question, how much? >> So, you can't make them fix or repair it. >> Well, if they took a building down. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Or let's just say they put all windows in and they didn't put the right, you
know, 6 over6 or whatever it's supposed to be. And let's say they did one over one and they totally annihilated the architectural look. >> So, there will be a violation fine. >> It will be a violation of the court. >> Yeah. against the property.
>> Well, I guess what you what you could I don't know if you could do it or not, but what you could say, well, what did it cost you to put it up that way? Let's say it cost you lie about that. >> Yeah, but they still >> They're not going to tell you it was $400. >> They're not going to tell you it's 200
$2,000. They're going to say it's $10,000. We weren't asking, but we were only asking. >> See, that's where it gets hard. Um >> Yeah, but then you get paperwork. >> Well, this is true. You ask them for paperwork, but they can't they can't put back
if they take away, for example, to go back to the barn. If they demolish the barn without permission, we can't say you have to. We could say the barn, clean up, show, >> I guess.
>> So, you can change your windows. >> So, you >> I guess I may change your windows. >> Oh, you did? >> Yep. So, >> and we've seen instances where people have built on an area that they were
notified was nonbuildable. And this this happened in other towns, tear the building down. Get it. >> Oh, I've heard of a shed or a garage down somebody else's. >> Oh, yeah. I've heard of that. a second
story blocking a view >> second story of a house walking out the back of a view of a lake. >> That's a lawsuit though. >> But I have seen instances where the building was deemed >> they were told >> not to they said I'll do the deed and
worry about the forgiveness and what they dealt with >> t the building is to be because you will not get an occupancy. >> We put a deck on the back of our house years ago. We didn't get a permit for it. We put it up. >> They just did it. >> We just did it. But the building
inspector knocked on the door and said, "We saw that you have a deck on the back of your house. Come down and fill out >> a building permit. I'll come and inspect it and you'll have to pay or you're going to have to take it down." So what did we do? We went and got the permit.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. So there was an alter So there was a discussion when the violation was discovered. they came to and there was a discussion about how to fix it. >> Yeah. >> So if we don't have a numerical number
for a fine for that established and we have that discussion, can we just put any number on it? >> That's just you saying considering what it is >> considering what was it? Was it a bar? >> I like CL's idea of saying
>> was it removed or can it be replaced type of thing. So, the farm was removed. They they're not going to replace it. >> So, you will either have a $10,000 fine or you replace the >> Hey, by the time we leave. >> So, now >> I didn't realize going to be a loving
you. >> Think about this. We could have our tax. >> I thought she was 2500. She was >> We could keep going. She's got 10 grand now. I mean, >> well, I mean, think about it. >> Can I hear 15? >> Okay.
>> I think you got to be careful about that. I think that's a when you leave it to the disposition of somebody to create the fine number, I think that's a slippery slope. >> Well, how about up to >> I mean, if we catch you guys on a bad day, we're looking at
>> $20,000 now. You guys >> Huh? No. >> No. >> Oh, that's too high. >> No, it's not. It's too low. Can we do a range then up to a fine up? >> You know how they do that if you have an offense to >> Yeah. But that means we have to
>> decide what the >> Yeah. The up to is I have 100,000. >> Well, I mean you have to decide what the actual number is. >> Yeah. At some point we have to >> the board would have to decide in front of you given the situation. So we have
the right to fine you up to $100,000. So, do you want to go from 10 to 100,000 and give them a range >> because it's going to be different for different structures? Correct. >> It shouldn't be different for the individual, but it should be for the
individual you're finding. You're finding the >> the offense offense. >> Yeah. >> Like, you know, you get a DUI, it's going to be from $200 to $22,500 or jail. >> Oh, okay. So now we're going to send him
to jail. >> We're just rolling around with the fire. >> Are we going to send people to jail with the fine? >> You can't know Dennis. >> All right. I know. We had this sentence up here that I had made those remarks. That was something that I would ask.
Well, I think that Melissa took care of it for one part of it anyway that has to do with taxes on permits versus these violations. I'm going to ask town council how this is done, but you're going to you're going to ask the state first where to get this information.
>> Yes, we we'll talk to >> Yes. >> And just in general note, I think you're going to want to implement and take the time to look at how this verbiage and how it's structured as to how you
first violation, etc., etc. >> You know what? You can't come to $10,000 20,000 fine just by >> concrete, >> right? >> Do they have it on their website? >> They may. >> I would definitely look other towns how they structure some of this.
>> This may all be up to the individual municipality too. >> Oh, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. >> It's my my question to to um ask commission is how do we get the lean put on? Do we go through the court or do we
go through >> You're going to find that that's a far easier process and it's a very basic. >> Where do we where do we file it? Do we file it in Massachusetts district court? Do we file it at the state superior court because it's a state violation?
>> I think it would be local. >> Nope. I think it would be local. You could tie somebody's property up registry for middle sex. Hm. >> Yeah. >> Cambridge registry. >> No, it wasn't such it was a court. >> Before a judge. So, you're in superior
court. >> Oh, you met a judge to do it. >> We brought a case to court. Oh, >> you know what? I'm going to start there. >> Did you remember what year that was? >> Oh, I have no idea what year that was.
June was the >> Oh. Oh, >> that's doing it. 2005 205 >> history we are the town. So, was it was it Warden? Town versus Warden, >> right?
>> Town versus Benjamin's hotel. >> I just saw a light >> Benjamin's. >> No. Where? No. >> The house 256. >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's the number. >> The yellow one next to Forest
appliances. Yep. That's 256. Yeah, that's still >> I know this because I'm doing that >> where they used to have the training the driving school and everything in there. >> That's too >> And that was I remember that had to have been like 20.
>> No. No. >> Well, 205 was 20 years ago. He is right. >> Yeah. I just do that because I really that's when I was first getting a little more active in town stuff and I I remember that.
>> Am I right? Like 20 21 years ago or something? >> Probably. >> Yeah. 19. >> And you recall who was triumphant? >> We would say no. No, she didn't bat an eyelash. the sort of district commission
was being wronged and she was going to make sure it was right >> and that was a judge. Oh god, I hope she's still there. >> Okay, >> wishful thinking is all we done. >> Can we have the sign thing here? >> Well, I I just want that's just a
discussion. Where is that? >> Okay, that would be a work. It's not going to be a work session. It's going to be I won't go to that. Thank you. >> So, in other words, we're going to roll. We're not >> Kathy's looking that up. >> We've got more work to do on structuring this whole fine operation.
>> They have it on their website. It's like should be public. >> She's reaching out to Congress or some other >> town. Everybody's going to do a reach out to somebody. >> So, in other words, who's going to Graten? Who's going to Dunable? Is that what we're looking at? Or Littleton? >> Well, we know we don't have GoPro.
>> I got to go Littleton couple days. So >> yeah, we can just look on their website to see what they have. I'm going to contact the commission about how you get the lean on record. But Kathy's going to give us So we just
finished discussing this. >> We're going to table this now. >> We're going to So can I have a motion to table the fines? >> I'll make a motion to meeting. >> Okay, Jerry, in clear seconds. >> Okay, Jerry. >> The next meeting. >> Yes. >> Yes. I think we're a ways off from
having this >> until the next month >> finalized. >> I know, but like Lori, he's had some good start. >> I didn't hear that. >> So, is that the 12th of March? >> Well, we always had 12 flat feet.
>> Whatever you did was $150. >> So, the historical HDZ did have some degree. >> We had a flat feet >> that fit all. Yep. >> But day $150 per day. >> A day for whatever it was.
>> But what happens if they keep >> put the toothpaste back in the tube? >> Yeah. Like >> in other words, if the bond was torn down regardless of what we requested, how where is the >> We never face those things. >> Wait, what?
>> We never face those issues. Be prepared. >> I think we should be prepared. >> Yeah. Yeah. be prepared. Okay, so the last item. No, no, no, not the last one. Okay, the next and last item is the
infamous application that I've already scheduled because I want to get this off my plate and I know it's going to be nasty and not fun. This is going to be an application for a UPS sign on the roof of the Honeyland building.
>> Uhhuh. on the roof. >> Lit. Lit. >> A lit sign on the roof. No. No. >> Well, this is my point. So, we want to be prepared. >> You can't even do that. It if you weren't in the historic district, you
can't do that. >> Is that because of um lighting bylaws? >> A lighting bylaw? >> What are they thinking? I mean, I can see a sign in the front. Well, I I'm not I think what they're I don't know what they're thinking to be honest with you,
but I >> but I this one. >> Yes. Yes. She on the application she included pictures. >> Oh. And um I think she calls it the roof, but it's
really the overhang kind of. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. It's the slanted part, not the top with lights. But I'm thinking the sky is gonna be lit lit up picture like those big motel signs that you see years ago. >> Picture of the church. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I I don't. >> So anyway, there's a lot a lot but we have to do a homework on. This is scheduled for next Thursday here at 3:00. >> The meeting? >> Next Thursday. >> The general what do you call it? >> Well, tell me what's wrong with that. >> Open hearing.
>> Well, in open meeting. Yeah. Open hand public hearing. So is that a selection meeting or >> No, that's that's our public hearing next week. >> So we're having another meeting next week just for this particular >> for this >> just for the sign. Correct. >> Two questions. If you want me to stay
because I work with UPS for 25 years. >> No. >> Okay, good. I'm glad you want me to stay. >> You don't want you don't work for now. >> No, you don't work for now. >> So I'm just saying that could be a >> Yeah, that's good. But above and beyond
what these people want, >> just knowing UPS is going to be what they're looking for for See, that's what >> lit. That's what I want to talk to you about. And and and this is where it gets murky for me because I understand that
they have a franchise and they have to do what the franchise wants. I get that business-wise. >> Y >> However, they're in the historic district. Mhm. >> One would think that one would do their homework before they did something of
this nature that they would know what the rules and regulations were about signage, etc. But that didn't happen. So, >> but that doesn't let them off the hook. >> Correct. And that's where we that's why I want everybody at this table to please do some homework by reading 4C the
signage because >> but Laura already said that's against the town >> the lip part >> the lip part >> the lip part is but the historic part is 24x 24 on wood painted on wood for
commercial >> only only >> 24x 24 in that ain't going to cut it for UPS. >> That's what I'm saying. >> I'm saying you you're going to that that's going to be >> that's none of our That's not our
problem. >> But that's that's not even anything I think we're going to need to get into. >> Well, we have to give them a we have to give them a >> You cannot have an internally lit sign and you can only have a sign by this
amount by that amount set by our guidance. >> Is this um >> that's not even negotiable. That's it. >> A legal notice in the paper. >> Oh, I don't know. She just sent me out those plans. >> No, no, no. For the hearing. >> For the hearing. >> Oh, no. I didn't put in the paper. I
have to put the hearing in the paper. >> I thought you just had a public hearing. >> I thought I just public hearing or is it a um autis? >> Well, it's different. >> Oh, well. >> Well, you notified all the abutters. >> Yep. They sent them away. >> And so, you wait for whatever
>> green cards. But a public hearing is when you send out the zoom link to the in that case it's not public. It's just the >> those are the only people I notify you.
>> I mean, I don't know why I don't why the public would have to call me something else. What do I call it? >> A bunch of Where did you Where did this
even go? I mean, no one has ever challenged J. >> She's challenging. >> We've never we've done Let me find >> I think there's different types of public hearings is what it is.
>> Let me find out. But who's this? This is Dret. Who's Delaney? Who's up there? Waiver of public hearing for 422 Main Street. waiver. >> Well, no. I post it as a public hearing
and then when I send my letter out, I send it out as a waiver. If they want to sign it, they don't want to come >> and then they send it back to me. >> Oh, a waiver to the >> to the but it's always been called a public hearing. >> I think she's got me confused, too.
>> I mean, is it going on? But but they but they posted as a public hearing. Who did? Well, Lisa did. Whoever came before me cuz I just took their own exam and
I didn't make this up. Believe me. Um I would ask the town clerk. Um >> I don't know. >> I mean, if you're posting a hearing >> it gets posted because it is a public hearing.
>> Yeah. Who? Well, he didn't say anything. Commissions of Massachusetts are required to hold public hearings to review applications for changes to buildings blah blah blah. But um public notice of the hearing must be generally
provi provided at least 14 days in advance is required by mass general law. >> I did that. It also requires a public a legal notice. >> Yeah, I was just going to ask and you have to have that zoom link on it. We have never done that cuz then we would have to pay.
>> Well, because you've never done it doesn't mean that's not that but that's okay. But I'm not the expert. >> Um I only I only know from planning board what a public hearing is. Okay. >> And that has to go through the whole
>> and so it's the same thing where you >> where you have to send it to other departments. It gets a legal notice in the paper. You ask for and there's a script that you is that because it it affects everybody whereas whereas it's
in the district it's only a letters I mean is is there is there a difference between the two >> there is I know there is different >> I had to file the thing with the boundaries remember guys so I had to go before the planning no the zoning
>> zoning board. So I had to I the person had well not me the person but for the historic >> you asked for a public hearing. >> Yeah. So I had to go through all that. I had to post it in the paper pay for it. >> Yeah. That's the only way I know it. But
you might be different. >> If you doing that then don't you put in a fee schedule for the notice because on planning board doesn't isn't the applicant the one who pays for the notice? True. >> You know what? The rules are going to
change like this. >> I I don't know that they're changed. >> Well, I mean, they challenged. I mean, we we had we had the girl come in for the bridal shop. I did the same thing. I They posed it exactly like this public hearing. No one has ever challenged it.
No, they didn't. They never challenged their money. They didn't >> Well, I'm not saying that I'm challenging you. I'm just saying that I don't know it to be done this way in any other place but here. And so if there's >> introduce you if there's an exception
that it must be in writing somewhere. >> I don't know where it is. I don't know where it is. So maybe if you could find it and give it to us. I mean I I don't even know where >> does it say that the butters have to be notified. It I I don't know. I I don't know the answer to that because I'm just
doing what everyone did before me. >> Right. Well, could we have it and then if we find that it gets really messy, then do a total public hearing, >> but they've never done that. >> I know. I know. But I I'm trying to think of a way to
>> So, when we brought the gal in front of us for the bridal sign, >> I guess it was wrong. >> We went through We didn't do a posting. >> Yeah, I did a posting, but I called it a public hearing. Now, we're saying that that's not public hearing. >> In the public hearing now, that's um Yeah.
Because we just our last meeting that gal came in and as Mary Jane said she only put it in in a posting form. >> So you didn't go to the paper? No. >> It didn't go to the box out front in >> Yeah, it did. It was It posted out
front. >> Out front. >> And I sent letters to all the abutters. I I got all the names of the abutters and I sent them letters. >> I don't know any other way. Only way I've ever seen it done is that if it's a public hearing, it's got to go through
the same process as a commission. Maybe >> maybe Well, I think we have >> where why hasn't anyone ever said anything before this? borrowed because their mind is going to
a public hearing and not to our >> Didn't you >> Well, then I'll cancel it and I'll cancel it. >> Well, didn't you send an email saying that they pulled their application? >> Oh, yeah. This is where this is the whole thing with this and I'm already disgusted with it. They sent me They
wanted to see it. That's what I >> No, they then they changed their mind and they and she pulled it. So, I had to go back to the town clerk and say, "Pull it." She pulled it. She said, "We're not going to do it. We being UPS. This girl is the fine >> guru." So she
>> So this is the >> she made the she sent the application to building department. Building department gave it to me. I responded to her. I said, "Yeah, I have a public hearing. I was going to do it today." That was my first plan to do it today and get it
over with. So I scheduled it originally for today with this meeting. She immediately called me and said, "Uh, nope. I'm not in charge anymore. The owner is going to do it. He's going to put in a new application and you'll have to change
it." So, I pulled it from the clerk. >> And then the next day, she said, "Oh, well, he changed his mind again. He wants us to do it." So, I put it back on, but I couldn't put it on for today. So, I had to put it on for next week or the 26th. What are you doing? I'm just talking to
who? >> To who? The girl that is coming in. Is it the girl that's coming in or is it Sunny? >> No, she's going to come in with him, I think. No, she might. No, she's going to come by Zoom. >> Sunny, it's not. No, it's not the guy. Um, >> he's probably going to come in person
because he lives here. She may be in Zoom. >> They live in broad. >> I mean, they're local, >> correct? >> So, um, I'm assuming she was going to come by Zoom. Anyway, it wouldn't harm anything if we had them come do their presentation. We
don't make any action and I scheduled a $200 public hearing. >> I don't know if >> I No, that falls under I don't I think you can add that in into just the agenda at the
next meeting. >> I mean, it's already but but I posted this. So why do you need a hearing if all you have to do and this is what my interpretation was when I first came on >> is all all you have to do is notify the
abutters. You get their responses at the time that they are that they are to meet with us the the commission and then you discuss those responses and then the the commission makes their decision on what
they want. I don't I think that's all that it is. >> Yeah. I'm confused as to why you're even calling a public meeting. >> She's not. She did Lisa. >> This is just >> that's what she's titled it. That's not
what it is. >> That's what we we're experiencing. But when soon as you say public hearing, I know that's a different thing. That's not for a public meeting. That's
Isn't that normal business at at the HDC meeting? >> No. >> What? It is not. >> Well, what Laura explained is normal business. >> Correct. >> We had we've had several things. >> Oh my god.
>> Don't lose sleep over this one. It's just UPS. >> No, I'm not going to. >> Well, why why is it >> Because it's I got it right here. I got it right here. So, here is what it says. >> Confused about this one. >> No, I'm not confused.
>> Public hearing. Okay, everybody. Attorney General, I mean, public hearing. >> Public hearing. The public hearing is the formal opportunity for members of the public to voice their support, opposition, questions, and or concerns about an application before the
commission. >> Members of the public, >> right? Automatically when you say that, it goes to posting. It has to be posted when it goes to the public hearing. >> Why can't you pull the posting? >> She can pull the posting. >> Pull the posting,
>> but she still has to do. I'm sorry. You know what? Well, I what I would do is I I Google the posting and I would >> But you've already notified all the buddters. >> Well, you have to notify the
posting >> and notify the betters until it's been cancelled till the next week and put your notice in as a better not >> who's going to pay for it. I'm not paying for it. >> No, no, no, no. >> The public hearing needs to be publicly
put in the newspaper. You're calling it the wrong name, >> but that's what this says you have to have. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, we don't have the money. >> It is essential that the chairperson and all members of the district commission
follow proper procedures, listen carefully to each speaker, and maintain a respectful tone. The benefits of a well-run hearing, blah, blah, blah. And then they go on. >> The chairperson opens the meeting. You introduce the people. >> Yeah. Yeah. He asked the commission if they can recuse themselves. He asking
about >> Do they say anything about the letters only? >> I've never heard of an about only. >> We've done a few done that. I haven't had the experience here last year. >> Okay.
>> We did we did a check. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, here we have the one with the room. However, for a public hearing, you need 14 days. >> You're able to do that public. >> So, in other words, I just got an indication.
>> All right. Here, look, here's what the rules say. All right. A public hearing notice must be mailed to the applicant comma owners of adjoining property comma other property owners deemed by the commission to be materially effective
comma the planning board and anyone else filing a written annual request for notifications. Well, that would come to the clerk, right? >> Sure. >> Okay. When the public hearing notice is complete, it's delivered to the town or the city clerk for posting. This must be
include posting accessible 24 hours a day. >> And that's it. >> That's it. For more information, go to the open meeting law. Strongly recommended that you contact your city or town clerk and review the open
meeting law guide found on the website for the attorney general's office. A public hearing can be waved, but only if one of the following conditions is met. All persons entitled to notice of the meeting wave the meeting in writing. So I sent
them and I sent a return and receipt envelope with a stamp on it that I paid for. The historic district commission determines that the proposed project is insubstantial and notifies the butters and other affected property owners that the commission is waving the public
hearing and the commission can act upon the application. >> So we're going to exercise never says anything about publishing in the newspaper. Okay. But we're going to go if we put it in for the waiver
gives you the ability not to post it and go to the newspaper. If I just understood what she just read. >> So she delayed going to the newspaper >> because she said it. >> That didn't say anything about the paper. >> You didn't say a word.
>> What's the waiver about? The waiver. >> The waiver. >> Waiver is a public. But could a waiver be >> the waiver for the application? Isn't it >> meeting for the waiver? >> Could a waiver mean something different
to planning more than it means to Yes. >> to us? Could it could it have two different meetings? >> Yeah. Whatever the process is is the labor. >> In planning, they ask for a specific waiver and the planning board votes on
whatever that specific thing is. here. All right. >> What I heard and I could it could be wrong was you notify all the abutters plus anybody and I don't know how you determine this. Anybody who might be
interested or affected by this now is it people who are going to be affected by the lights is >> well how many feet do you have? How many feet? Is it 100 feet or something? How
many feet is it that you go the abutters with? >> Your butters. >> The abutters are just >> I don't know. I went all the way down Main Street. I went across the street. I did Mr. Mike's. I did Anderson's. I did McNabs. All the McNab family. I did Netley's guy. I did the John Barretts
building. I did the Congo church. I did um >> Well, it sounds like I did John Forest. I did Betty Tenny. >> She would go over there. >> Ashley, >> I think so. >> John would be considered in the to see the sign. So I think if you can see
>> that whole area is and she's right but that whole area is who would who would see the sign because that would be the only people that would be affected. >> I think she'd be all right to hold to go ahead with that meeting. I really do. >> I have faith in you. But
>> I I just don't >> So can I ask one quick question? >> Yes. >> The other meeting we had with the lady at the bridal, was that legal? >> I don't know. do that. >> I don't know the answer to that anymore. >> You know what I'm saying? I'm confused. >> You're confused.
>> Did we Did we not do something there? >> Well, no, we gave her information. >> I don't know if everybody at least 5 years and I know. >> It only tells you that anything that's I guess
>> and it has to be posted to you have to send out the notification 2 weeks in advance. The meeting has to be posted 48 hours prior to the meeting. >> Well, I posted it 14 days prior to it. >> Yeah. So, you're fine, >> right?
>> I think we're okay. I really think Yeah, it's just a different business as usual than >> HDC. Well, I would rather we got hung up on how we're going to >> address the >> address the sign.
Yeah. >> Well, okay. Okay. We've addressed the sign. What about the placement? Is the placement okay outside? Do you mean you picture? I don't know.
>> When you said on the roof, I got confused. >> That's what she said. What about yourself? That's on the facade. That is not a roof. What is what does what's that guy's a couple
where is his inside? Well, >> he doesn't even have >> I don't think he has. >> Yeah, he's just got a little small side sign where they open. >> I don't know because interior lip open.
>> I took pictures rather than >> Well, I took a picture. I I was not I didn't get it today. I didn't think we're going to get this deep, but of the UPS and conquered and conquered would not allow them to do this.
>> They put it inside. >> They put it outside, but they had to match. >> Did you take a picture of it? >> I did. I just didn't bring it here. >> Okay. >> Um they're in they're also excuse me build it. >> Okay. >> And they made them make it red and it kind of blends in with the bread so you
almost don't even see the UPS business. Well, that's not good. Well, concrete, >> they care about their historic district. >> I mean, I I think this is if we can make McDonald's paint their building a certain color for the town of Towns and
they're not in the historic district because >> why can't >> Oh, >> right. >> Because remember when they did bright red and the town made them change it? >> I remember that. >> No. Is it would you would we consider
putting it inside the window sign at the other end of them? >> I agree. >> You can't have a Oh, because of the other story. >> See, and then does he get away with his open? >> He does. He's illegal. >> They're all illegal. Where are you going?
>> Have a realtor meeting. >> Yeah. So, all right. So, this is like serious uh thought or thought. Well, I mean the 26 is what? Two weeks. Yes. >> So, we have time to less than two weeks. >> What's the 19th?
>> That got cancelled. >> That got cancelceled. 19th got cancelled. >> Okay. Yeah. >> All right. >> So, cuz they kept changing their mind. I mean, what day do they 26? That's the day we have it for. >> Okay. >> For this particular >> issue >> and that's it. So, >> that's all we're going to talk about.
and we talk about >> and hopefully or not people will come their butters and give their their opinion but as well as hearing their opinion. We have to really know the signing rules
by the historic district >> by historic district and anybody hears a lot of >> but but the town has a lighting bylaw. >> Yeah, right. But but we but we get it first. Okay. So if we say no, it never
it doesn't go to plan. It doesn't go to >> That's it. >> That's it. >> We say no. That's it. >> That's it. If we say no. >> So are you having a little bit of difficulty with the sales rep from UPS as to what their intent? >> No, she was really nice. Um she she was
really nice and and and I had some issues with the application. I said, "You got to make do you really want to do this?" And she responded very quickly. I think that she has got to go by what her corporation wants. >> Meaning >> this
>> the UPS. >> Correct. >> All right. Cuz if it gets into a big I know plenty of the people at UPS. >> Well, hopefully. Well, it might be worth it if if we if you can make a quick call and find out what other historic
>> I could find out what CS is dealing with this in towns and it'll probably be out of it'll be out of chistoric district. >> Okay. >> Well, meaning is the rep for this for that region. >> It's no longer
>> and they must have ideas of what other historic been approved. >> Correct. Yeah. So, I'll call one of the people from uh >> if you can contact someone there and >> I'll get out to >> and ask them what their policy is with
working with historic districts. >> Correct. >> Because not all their stores are in historic districts. Correct. >> Yeah. You got somebody in a mall, who cares, >> right? Right. >> But you're going to have does have a standard. >> Yeah. And that's why she sent this, I think.
>> Yeah. I mean, cuz we really want to clean up the center. By the way, we're going to talk to you about that, too, >> your client. That yellow building. He's got to fix that up. Make it cuter. >> What building? >> The dollar store building.
>> Oh, he needs a letter. >> But he's not in historic district, so we can't do anything about it. It's just like not cute. It's not appropriate for the center, do you think? What's >> I think he's got he's had a lot of expenses with the septic system and
electrical and more safety issues rather than decorative. >> It does need some dressing up, believe me. >> Family Dollar Family Dollar, right? Yeah. And what else is there? Um >> cleaning the pizza tea
>> chip chip. Maybe they could help. >> Well, they're not there. >> Oh, they're not there. You know what? They left already. Oh my god. Only for a second. >> I think maybe we just take it right to the ground. Put a brand new facility here.
>> I say we eminent domain. Quite housing. >> Are you guys really all trying to go for mixed use? >> I make a motion to adjourn this meeting. Thank you. Claire, can I sh any discussion? Anybody
talking about sitting around? >> All right. Can I take a vote? I don't have >> black. Yes. >> Are you done? >> Vote to adjurnn. >> Lori, I >> hopefully yes. Thank you everybody.
Great. P it.