I don't I do not have a gavvel. So, we're going to start the meeting, >> everybody. >> So, good afternoon and welcome to the commission workshop for October 27th, 2025. I'd like to call this meeting to order.
This meeting is going to be led by Kimley Horn and Associates. is a joint meeting to discuss the phase two and the land development regulation updates. This is a working group discussion among elected bodies in sunshine. Meeting facilitator is Kelly
Clapper, vice president of Kimley Horn. At this time, uh we need to stand for the pledge of allegiance. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic
for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> All right. Uh we only have five mics. It is working right. We only have five mics and uh so we're going to need to pass them around. So please be patient
as we uh as we move forward and I'm going to start. We're going to do a roundt introduction. Uh I will start and we will go to my right and I am John Doctor, mayor of Treasure Island.
>> Marvin Shavelin on the PNZ and LPA. >> Chris Downing on PNZ and LPA. Ross Sanchez, District 3 representative for the um PNZ co-chair and LPA co-chair. >> Richard Harris, chairman of the planning and zoning board and the local planning
agency. Bobby Shaye, assistant city manager, community development director. >> Marilyn Edwards, assistant community development director. >> Uh Dan Billingsley, PNZ, LPA. >> Valerie Acory, LPA.
Gary Pateniano, LPA BNZ. >> Arthur Sison, Commissioner District 3. Ardan Dicki, Commissioner District 4. >> Uh, Chris Clark, Commissioner District 2. >> And Tammy Vasquez, Vice Mayor in
District 1. >> Chris, we've got a seat for you here at the front table. All right, we're going to uh begin the meeting with uh understanding what the project is and we're going to have a presentation from Kimy Horn.
So uh good afternoon. U my name is Gavin Owens. I'm the interim city attorney and I'm going to start out with something that's going to drive a lot of the discussion on this uh Senate Bill 180. Uh so Senate Bill 180 was recently passed obviously in 2025.
its original intent post hurricane rebuilding and support. Um and then the a late amendment is what is creating a lot of the buzz and discussion ultimately because it affects local land use and your authority is the commission
and LPA. The um overview of it is it's retroactive to August of 2024 and then it sunsets in October of 2027. So that's the window in which it will impact us. key provisions and this is
what a lot of um of the frustration um has has come up. It basically prohibits any um regulations that are quote more restrictive or burdensome than those that were in place uh before
hurricanes. And so that is in in these discussions um and kind of moving forward any regulations that would be quote more burdensome. How that is defined um is unclear at this point. There is not any case law on it. There are just some examples and I'll go over
some examples in a minute, but uh there are a lot of people actually suing related to this, but it it is um that's kind of the general overview. And then another um aspect of it um it applies to all counties. It originally was disaster impacted, but then it it's expanded to
counties that are um touch those and it's enforced through a private enforcement which is kind of an interesting mechanism. So any person any citizen may serve notice of their intent to sue and the locality has 14 days to cure or repeal uh to avoid the
litigation. So that's one of the um kind of the the accountability mechanisms that the the bill put into place for citizens if they have concerns. If they believe something a um land development regulation or a comp plan amendment is more restrictive then they have the
ability to essentially um notify that local government and then the local government can either change the ordinance or regulation or they can um end up uh possibly facing litigation. So that's one of the the concerns a lot of local governments have facing this bill.
Um as we talked about they can anyone can kind of it's prompted at at an individual level which is kind of an interesting mechanism and examples of impact. This kind of helps you see. So recently in in Orange County, Orlando area, um they they
received a letter from the Florida Commerce um department declaring that their comprehensive plan null and void um because that it was more restrictive or burdensome um and so that then they ended up having to kind of go back
through the process. town of Windemir wanted to implement a tree protection ordinance that would have required mitigation by developers and that was determined um the state came back and said this could be considered more restrictive and so they ended up having to pause that process. So those are two
local examples and in how this is impacting local communities. Um there are a number of of I'll go forward and then back. These are the local governments that are in a current lawsuit with the state related to Senate
Bill 180. Uh so this lists the kind of series of of them. Um and this is their core argument that it violates the constitution that it's um too too generalized that creates unfunded mandates conflict with Florida's community uh planning act which required
comprehensive plans and those types of things. And then intrudes on home rule preeemption language is too vague that kind of thing. Um and the relief they're seeking is that that it violates the following. Uh and then other other relief, those are the local governments
participating in it. And then um some of the stakeholder critiques of this uh one concern is for instance septic to sewer conversion could be considered more burdensome. Uh lighting protections, resiliency for flooding, those types of things. All those could possibly be be
perceived as more restrictive or burdensome and so could possibly be ruled as as not allowed under Senate Bill 180. But I um there is some good news it looks like from the state if you're against this that they might come back this session and clarify. Um so the
Senate sponsor of the bill said we're going to potentially have to make some adjustments clarify the language. Um but as you're discussing and and kind of looking through this the practical implications are the land development regulations which is going to be a key
part of this discussion uh that they can be um they can allow for more um uh they can basically be less restrictive but if they're more restrictive more burdensome then that there could be a potential of facing a
lawsuit. So, just something to keep in mind as you're having these discussions. At this point, I'll open it up if there's any specific questions about Senate Bill 180 and how it impacts the LDRs um and this discussion question.
Gavin, thank you so much for that uh Senate Bill 180 overview. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Kelly Clipper with Kimling Horn. I am our team's project lead as it relates to the land development regulations. Um Bobby Shay or do we have my presentation? Is it just
at the beginning of this one or >> So we're going to have it help us out for just a sec. There we go. So, you may be asking yourself, why am I here? Why am I here in a workshop setting? The the big answer to that is we're at the precipice
of something, you know, monumental. This is a large undertaking. And instead of kind of going at this with a series of interim discussions, one-on- ones, you know, back and forth with with the land planning, uh, you know, the LPA versus the the electeds. We often recommend the
best thing you can do is to pull everybody together in the same room at the very beginning of these projects and just say, you know, what are we all kind of hearing? What is setting the stage for what we're undertaking as part of this land development regulations update? So, it's one of those things and we've talked about this a little bit.
You know, how do you know where you're going if you don't know where you've been? So, part of this is we're going to talk briefly, and I say briefly about the phase one or the cleanup. As Gavin said, there's a context here that you know what you've seen is about I'll say
about a I'd say a third to almost 40% of the phase one discussion at this point with the vintage signs with some of those processes and procedures and things of that nature. But more importantly, as you're getting ready to see the next batch and it kind of finishes up the phase one, the reason we
wanted to kind of talk about that is, you know, when we first started the phase one, that was before the legislation was even thought of. There was other legislation that was out there, but it did not affect Panellis County and nor this jurisdiction. So, we were moving forward uh under the guise
of that. However, with the, you know, the uh adoption of Senate Bill 180, we then had to go and talk to uh Mary Ellen and the staff and go, okay, we need to take a quick pause. Let's go back and reook at this because it is retroactive. So, that's the reason the landscaping
and some of those components have not been brought forth to you. those items that we were very comfortable in saying we do not believe as professionals these are more burdensome that's those are the items that we brought forth to you and and in essence going back and relooking and kind of testing it ourselves to say
does this meet that more burdensome test now you know one of the things and I love this portion of it as Gavin said you know it's the private challenge however working with a number of jurisdictions across the state we've been part to this party to the discussions with Florida Commerce where
there's been either a the comment regarding a perceived or potential more burdensome and restrictive and the ask of will go back and prove to us why it's not more burdensome. Uh we're currently working with Mante County not on the components that were just recently uh
determined to be more burdensome with respect to their uh wetlands and some of their components including what they refer to as 2128 which is their uh growth boundary discussion. those were being done uh under a different group. But those discussions came about and
it's another one of those things as things continue to kind of evolve especially as it relates to 180 and also not only with comprehensive plans but with codes we have to ask ourselves those tough questions. Hence the reason we're here tonight and you're going to see me start writing some stuff down uh
on the dry erase board if if it doesn't fall on me on me here. But uh also I'd be remiss if I didn't say that the young lady in the front here, Miss Brooke Fleming, is a planner with our team. She has been involved in this project for quite some time working with Mary Ellen and Jackie and and and those folks. So
again, kind of wanted to make sure we've got some additional eyes and ears. If there's specific questions that come up, you know, Brooke and I will be happy to answer those. And the best part about tonight's meeting, it's a workshop, so feel free to ask questions. Feel free to say, "Hey, can we expand on this as
we're going?" instead of waiting to the end. I know, mayor, I want to be respectful because we do have a couple of comment cards. So, if you're seeing a number of those and you're like, "Hey, Kelly, we need to make sure and reserve X, just let me know." Uh but in the interim, you know, and we appreciate the folks from the county being here. Mayor,
I know our team has worked closely with you uh just recently and and I appreciate you spending your time with us, but you know, this is truly something as you we start looking through not only the the regulations, but also some of these components that could come out of this, whether it's a master plan, which would be separate
apart from anything we're talking about here, but also how do we fund finance and fund some of these things. So, just kind of having everybody in the room to start to see the head nods, keeping in mind, as the attorney will tell you, we're not making any decisions tonight. We're getting guidance. We're getting
some takeaways so that as we leave here, uh, we know kind of what are some of the big ticket items that are most important to this group so that as we're moving forward with the LDRs and I'll call it the design goals, we know where we're headed. So, what is the comprehensive plan
versus the zoning? We've talked about this before. you know there's that community uh core community vision which is established. So bringing together the meeting of the minds to say this is what we want as a community and understanding what are what are those items that are most important to the citizens. Now, you
know, having worked over in this community for a number of years and been affiliated with a number of organizations throughout Penllis County, a lot of the same things that we hear, whether it's Largo or Safety Harbor or Lelman and some of these other areas are very much the same and similar to what
we hear from the residents and from these groups as well. Are we saying you're exactly the same as St. Pete Beach? No. Treasure Island has its own identity, but at the same time, a lot of the same things that Treasure Island is dealing with are being addressed in other areas, including Denedan and again
Largo and some of these other areas. You all have a unique set of of of skills, ideas, and more importantly values. So, we need to make sure that we are reflecting those and that's where those kind of those core community components come about. And that was actually expressed as part of your adopted
comprehensive plan. You know, there are the opportunities for those like I said that second phase which is the comprehensive plan. But then more importantly, consistent with chapter 163, you know, your comprehensive plan and your code should really be talking together. The code implements the
vision. Now, as as Gavin has said, you know, the the challenge now becomes what's more burdensome, what's not more burdensome. Uh what we're seeing a lot of communities kind of look at at this point is taking those big picture ideas and those visions and instead of saying the thou shall or to the contrary going
well we think you should it's let's create some additional tools for the toolbox to where you know the tools that you have in place right now let's create some additional options that may actually be able to implement some of those visions so that you know if there are things that are most important then
you know we're not making those such radical changes to existing zoning district or standards. to where we could fall into you know kind of uh in conflict with what the state is identifying. So what are typically in land development regulations? Now is this
saying this is exactly the the the cookbook for what you should have? No. But you know when you start looking through land development regulations or the zoning code or some of those other things, it's it's very f fun it's fun for me to start to translate some of
those visionary items. Uh, as we've talked about with some folks once before, I had a young lady come up to me at a at a workshop and she goes, "Kelly, I have no idea about zoning codes. I don't even know why I'm really here." I said, "Well, tell me what why why did you come out?" And she goes, "Well, I wanted to learn something." I said,
"Well, tell me about your neighborhood. Tell me about you." And she goes, "Well, you know, I'm I live in a neighborhood and I'm concerned about ne my neighborhood being deteriorated and you know, my kids don't have the ability to walk to the park and you know, actually our park's not that great and and you
know, I'm worried about, you know, crossing the street. So, you see, I really don't know anything about codes and comp plans." And I said, "To the contrary, you just told me a lot. You're worried about neighborhood stabilization and redevelopment and, you know, property values. You're worried about mobility and the fact of being able to
walk from point A to point B. You're concerned about where your kids are going to go play. So those recreational aspects and guess what we were able to start to craft some of the vision and more importantly some of the code components based off of that. And you know she became one of our biggest champions as we were going through some
of these processes just because of being able to listen and start to translate some of that. So again what are typically in LDRs? you know, yeah, the easy things are zoning districts, different colors on a map. Say, okay, well, we can have residential here, we can have commercial here, we can have
mixed use here, and what are we going to allow within those areas? And then more importantly, when we start to build a building or we have a use, how far off the road should it be? Uh, you know, are there areas where we have certain maximum heights or minimum heights? Do we have heights that are different,
we'll say, from the beach side, you know, going back towards downtown? Uh, does this need to be the same heights as as what you see in St. Pete Beach? No. Uh, parking. We all love to talk about parking. Uh, parking is one of those things that a lot of of communities
going across the country now are saying, especially in downtown areas, get rid of the parking altogether. The market will bear. Somebody's not going to build a use or something like that unless they can actually have sufficient amount of parking. Is that Are we advocating that here? No. Why? Because we're not to that
level yet. we haven't heard from the residents and more importantly these groups to say is that something that you'd like to pursue density and intensity that one's a little bit more fun especially as we start looking through uh the fact that we are in Penllis County we have the countywide uh
master plan for Penllis which was a groundbreaking document and I will say having worked all across the southeast that is a model that a lot of communities wish they could emulate why because how many communities came together to to come up with a common
core and vision and it's held you know that test of time from the county all the way to each of the cities. How many areas can you think of that have been able to accomplish that? Very few. Uh so again there's also some requirements that goes along with that. The city has
its own comprehensive plan. There's the countywide comprehensive plan and basically the local has to be consistent with the the the county and all the way up and down. And there's also some provisions that in there talking about well you know if we are going to look at increases in density or do certain
things there's a process working through forward panelis and the staff over there and also the boards that have been established you know from the elected officials all the way through to the actual staffing uh landscape and open space uh something that's often overlooked a lot of times especially
those open spaces but then also something that uh is actually kind of lacking here but I will say that this is something that uh we we definitely are planning for and it's something we need to be thinkful thinking of plan unit development or the plan developments. Are we saying we're going to give away
the farm or take away development rights? Are we saying it's a shortcut to variances? No. What we're saying is in the cases and there's not I dare say there's no not one community I've ever worked in that has not had some form of a plan development process in some way, shape, form or fashion. But you allow
for that alternative design that still meets the intent of the code. The creative design, whether it's parking or landscaping, uh, or, you know, even some of a mix of uses and changing in building heights and types and just kind of being able to get a little bit more creative with either green field
development or more importantly with redevelopment. It works equally as well in both situations and setups. Why? Because unfortunately, we write our codes to be oneizefits-all. whether it is a brand new development or a redevelopment. If it's 1 acre versus 5
acres. So, what we don't take into consideration is the unique features that may be of a particular piece of property that has a unique shape or it's got access to something or there's something right beside it that, you know, just going by the straight code
really doesn't fit in with the context. or more importantly as things have been uh you know evolving over the course of time why not let people get a little bit more creative with some of the designs and more importantly get away from the the standard and I'll give you a great
example why do we have landscaping along the buffers and there's a tree every 20 ft looks like a row of soldier soldiers why not allow the clustering and grouping of those in different areas why not incentivize some of the protections of some of those areas for landscaping
provisions why not allow a mixture of, you know, vertically and horizontally integrated mix of uses. Why not? And you all have heard me say this before. What are the what's that question for those of you? And congratulations on the newest one. Um, the grandkids or your
niece, a 5-year-old niece and nephew. What do they what's the what's the question they always ask you? And I've used this here before, so hopefully somebody remembers it. Three letters. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? How?
I drive staff crazy asking those questions. Why? Because I can. Two, because it's Yeah, sorry, Mary Ellen. She She will admit to that. It's like, why are you doing that way? Well, it's because we've done it this way. Well, why? Well, because Jesse said so. It's
like, well, why does Jesse say so? Um but at the end of the day you start asking some of these questions and what you the answers that you start to get are well it's just because we've done it this way. So then you start asking, you know, some of those additional leading questions of, okay, what what else can
we start, and I hate to use the term thinking outside the box, but can we still do something that's going to be consistent with the vision, allowing some of that creativity and allow the designers and those master planners and, you know, the architects and things to be creative and fit something within the
context of the community that we're all proud of. So long-winded way of talking about some of the PUDs. I'm going to stop here for just a second, mayor, and just kind of ask general questions or thoughts on I I will be going into where we are with phase one versus phase two, uh the
schedule and uh some of these other components here in just a moment. >> Yeah, Kelly, I got a quick question. I I know today moving forward LDR's you're going to give like you want to hear from us as as a combined group but at the same time will Kimy Horn be also saying giving us some recommendations as well
saying well because you talk about planned unit development that's something that we are currently lacking today to where Kimley Horn would say okay we've gotten all your feedback you should also look into yes planned unit development is something that we should be talking about as well like from a Kimley Horn consultative approach
>> great question uh Yes, >> because that's something that I know that is missing today that could be beneficial in regards to moving LDRs forward. >> Yeah, the last thing you're going to hear me say is, "Well, what do you want to see?" Okay, that's fine. And okay, we just start to code to that point. Um, here's the other Sorry, Brooke, bad dad
joke. Uh, it's like going to the eye doctor. I'm a huge proponent uh of what do you like better? One or two and then two or three. So, coming up with some of those real world solutions that what makes sense and start to kind of come up with some of those recommendations.
Great question. >> How's it going, Kelly? I think we've had this conversation before, but uh your company and my company's favorite client uh we did a lot of uh CPDs, PDs, whatever you want to call them. It's something that this city tried to uh
approve back in 2017 uh because it got mixed up with additional height and add additional density and back when the referendums were occur occurring it was defeated. I still think it has a valuable tool in
this town. And there are about four different large tracks in this town that could really use a plan development type zoning category. And my thought is um you know there's only 11 zoning
categories in the whole town. uh what would be the possibility of making pretty much all the commercial and all the hotel districts into a planned development category rather than a bunch of different ones.
My and I'm going to kind of look out of the corner of my eye at Gavin as well. Um besides making all of those either grandfathered non-conforming potentially um but maybe for new development. >> For new development. >> Okay. Uh okay. It's scary to say it's like, man, I don't want to have that
headache and I'm sure Gavin doesn't either. Um, >> no, it would be >> that's one of those things if that's something that this the, you know, the combined group here is interested in saying is like, hey, by the way, going forward, you know, redevelopment is redevelopment. The zoning is the zoning. Of course, we don't want to modify that
because of especially potential for SB80, but for redevelopment, can we create a new designation that looks at the hotels or this or a true mix of uses whether it's vertically or horizontally uh you know integrated or even just I'll
say mixture of commercial uses within one property. Well, where the creative thinking's got to occur is in our central business district, both the north side and south side of 107th Avenue, the Gators property, as we all call it. Um perhaps
even something as small as the Thunderbird, the Thunderbirds going along. And last but not least, uh we need some definite creative thinking when it comes to the Treasure Island Yacht Club. There's a nice chunk of eight acres over there and uh it's got
some challenges. Let's just put it that way. So, that's what I'm looking forward to. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Other questions before I keep kind of moving on. >> Okay, so quiz time. I always love doing this. Uh and this one is actually
courtesy of Brooke. Um, so you know the LDRs must be consistent with Penllis countywide plan and applicable special area plan. So which of these are actually linked andor more importantly what order do they kind of fall into? Or are they even linked?
Any guesses? All of them. I usually have candy or something like that, but I'm trying not to get to where I'm throwing candy these days. These are all interrelated. So when we start talking about the Treasure Island comprehensive plan and the special area plans that you have and we
need consistency across and within the countywide plan that starts to inform, you know, the the additional components back to the comprehensive plan and more importantly the LDRs and how we're implementing that vision. So all of these are inherently linked one way or the other one way or the other. And you
hear hear us talk a lot of times about consistency and you know some of the things that as as planners and as regulators I hate using that term but as planners uh and you know this these kinds of group we start to ask the questions is this consistent with
so if there is a zoning uh coming through uh you really should be kind of looking at is it consistent with your current LDRs is it consistent with your comprehensive plan is it consistent with the countywide plan and asking those tough questions. Um, does that mean if
something has one item that's it's not consistent with that you deny it? No. You start start weighing those items and those options. Same thing as we're starting to develop some of these phase 2 components because we need to make sure that we are implementing the
comprehensive plan. We need to be looking at, you know, in the case of the special area plans, what is that specific vision for that area? because you can actually start to call out within certain areas whether it's targeted redevelopment or something else different standards you know you can say
you know as part of this master plan or this area we're going to look at modifications or incentivization for additional F or parking or this and you start kind of setting the stage for what that is and you know what sounds super
easy to do also means that okay now we got to put this into practice which is the code which is in essence this coming up. It will be phase two. So, this is just your portion of the countywide plan and map. Uh, I know we've had some presentations from the
for Panella staff. You know, those folks are are very talented. They they do a great job. They've got a lot on their plate to say the least. uh when you start thinking about the county and all the municipalities as a whole, the special studies that they're undertaking, uh and it's not just land
use, it's transportation, it's housing, it's economic development, it's infrastructure, it's, you know, coastal flooding, it's disaster mitigation and recovery, it's all of those things. So again, this is one portion of what that staff uh undertakes. And again, they
start to kind of line out specific to uh uh here we are, you know, in Treasure Island, your portion of the plan. Now the great thing about this is is this the you know the you know forward panels coming in and saying mayor you know by the way we don't like this color on the map your next conference plan you need
to have this this and this. No they're helping to assist and to inform. Uh but at the same know so it is it's your plan and your portion of the plan with them. It is not a top down or trickle down type of recommendation or series of recommendations.
>> I I do have a quick question. And so going back to that like just last slide because it's supposed to be in line. I mean can is there any chance you can explain to us how it got to where currently in the LDRs we have this at 22 units per acre but in regards to the
tourism density in the PRMU core district it's allowed up to 60 like how did we get if it's supposed to be aligned like it says must be because when we had talked about this you had talked about them being aligned but currently the way that we have it sit
it's it's not aligned >> correct >> the way that I read So, there's a couple of things, and this is where Gavin and I are going to become very close friends, uh, to say the least, uh, because, yeah, you're you're correct. There are some items that were identified in phase one that were inconsistent between the plans. There's
also some of those areas that per the SAPs, they may not have been identified or or codified a certain way. Um, and unfortunately, what happens is, and this this happens all across the Southeast, I work in communities across the
Southeast. I mean literally my if you're a fan of the SEC and football pretty much minus Missouri and Arkansas I'm doing I've done work or doing work in at some point and what we see and this isn't a knock on anybody codes get updated peacemail. Well, there is this
item that needs to be addressed because of sea level rise or we need to address this because of lighting or this because of parking. And unfortunately, very much like what happened here with Treasure Island, you have literally and Mary Ellen and I have had this uh chat about
six to seven sections of your code that items are placed across. So, if you don't know where you're looking in all of those linkages, you'll get one. You may not get all of them. So that's one of those other items where we start to say, okay, where does this look at? What
about the cross references? And more importantly, you know, what other chapters does this start to impact? Um, some communities, you know, it's great because we have what's called a unified development ordinance, so everything's under one big umbrella and it's easy to kind of cut across. Other places like
Treasure Island has multiple chapters and you know we're dealing with 68 70 and how many other numbers that are way up in the you know those those areas and again yes 68 deals with zoning but then there's other portions that deal with
other components and then lighting is under something else. Well, inherently lighting is also tied to site development which is also regul regulated by something else and then processes and procedures was actually in four well three to four chapters. So no
fault of the cities but that's part of the challenge of going back and fixing everything. >> Yeah. So just because when I was reading through it I mean I think that I'm glad again being happy to be at the table here with everybody. I mean, this is something that our board has kind of I don't want to speak for the entire board, but for myself sitting on the
board has struggled. So, again, putting you back on the question to where when it comes to re recommendations from Kimly Horn in regards to these updates, something like that would be included when it comes to addressing inconsistencies. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Kelly. I I have a question, too. when
you talk about consistency because that showed up in the both the last two slides that that expression or or term got us in to a little bit of trouble recently at LPA meetings and spilled over into the city commission meeting because uh many of us were interpreting
based on advice we were been giving at the time that we were interpreting consistency as being it has to be exact. So, if the county allowed 100 units per acre on this particular uh uh land, this parcel, that we felt that we had to be
at 100 units per acre, but but we later found out that consistency meant it we could be uh more restrictive than that, but we couldn't be over that. Is that is that uh can you clarify that a little bit for us?
>> I'm not an attorney. Um, my youngest son will be in about two more years, but we're going to go with Gavin. >> I mean, I think you said it well and um, consistency doesn't mean it doesn't have to be exactly the same, but it has to be consistent. There can be ma major
conflicts in it. um in terms of the overall usage. It's hard to without a specific example to extrapolate but um did you have do you have a specific >> Yeah. Well, let's use a specific example. We can use a Thunderbird as an example because they uh uh their size
parcel allows them under the county code to go up to 100 uh units per acre. Uh so the recommended uh proposed changes to change that use that maximum amount that the county would allow. Uh but the city doesn't have to to be consistent. We
could go with and I'm just making this number up. Not suggesting it, but we could use 75 units per acre. Would that make us inconsistent with the county guidelines? Um, so 100 I' I' I'd like to look a little more in
depth on that and and kind of break it down as long as it's overall consistent. Um, but >> okay. >> Uh, yes, you can you can absolutely be more restrictive. Uh, you just can't go above what we allow without an
amendment. Uh, and we have a a process for that. if you want to make an amendment, but no, um, you are consistent if you are at or below the densities and intensities that we allow. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, just for clarification, because I
because that was on the back end of of my comment, I'm not talking about the county comprehensive plan. I'm talking about our own comprehensive plan. So, I want to make that clear. Yeah, we we definitely have to be consistent with our So there it's the
you have the obviously state statute, then you have in in Panellis specifically, we have the comp or the uh forward panelis overlay and then the comprehensive plan and then our LDRs have to be consistent with the comp plan, but is that what you're saying
like how how much in regards to our current setup for our downtown district, we are not having our LDRs line up with our comprehensive plan from a city perspective.
>> And that's part of the phase one is cleaning up a lot of that. >> Is it safe to say that Ardan's Commissioner Dickiy's inquiry is is in the same type of realm of what I'm talking about or is that completely separate? >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Okay. I just All right. Good. Okay, thank you. >> But can the LDRs be less restrictive than the comprehensive plan or does it have to match it? >> Very similar to what the the young lady
from for Penelis noted, you know, you you can be more but you can't be >> Gotcha. Or it can be less but not more. >> Correct. >> Right. >> Yeah. your comprehensive plan couldn't call out for 60 units an acre and maximum heights or whatever else of X and then all of a sudden the LDR is coming and go well we we we think we got
it wrong uh we're going to go at 80 and you know 100 and 20 ft uh that would be inconsistent at that point. So keeping in mind that there's certain things that the comprehensive plan should do and there are certain things that the comprehensive plan should not do and I'll give you a prime example. uh city
of Venice back in 2016 uh we actually went through and we were working with the city on the review and the update of their comprehensive plan. Embedded in their comprehensive plan were parking requirements, maximum building heights in addition to the
densities and other things. Um so one of the questions we started asking the city attorney at that point was well if a project comes in and it is asking for a variance or modification under even under the PD standards uh Mr. Harris to
go above 35 ft. Are you requiring them to do a comprehensive plan text amendment? And she said you're one of the few people that have actually asked that question. I said what happens if there is a modification to the parking because it's embedded in your comprehensive plan. The state had actually said as
part of that process. Now get granted, it's almost 10 years ago, you should not have those types of code items in your comprehensive plan, the plan is the plan, the plan is the vision, the code is the code. So pull those items out and
put them into the code. So, a lot and that's that's one of the things that we we talk about and we work with communities again and working with city and county attorneys to say, you know, it's just asking those tough questions of why and a lot of times it was this was done well before we got here. Uh so
then it starts to ask some of those potential questions as far as conflicts or challenges. And so you're not the only ones that are in this situation, trust me. I'm not going to go through this uh at length. We've kind of been talking about it. Uh but when we first started this
again, it was a much different time. Uh we had no ideas about uh two horrible names uh on this coast being Helen and Milton. Um we didn't have a lot of the same things that we're dealing with today and it was a much simpler time so
to speak. Um but at the same time you know there were certain things that we did identify through the growth management act that said okay by the way you know you just went through and did portions of your comprehensive plan but what about this? So that was kind of the impetus behind why we started with our
phase one. And then you know, mayor, I know much like what you all faced with your master plan with Helen and Milton, those caused significant delays because rightfully so, we needed to focus in on our rec recovery and redevelopment efforts, not plans and codes and things
like that. Um, so here's one thing I will say is you've you've got a great partner right across a bridge. Um so you know look to them look to your your other partners as well to go hey what are you all seeing and hearing as well and I know you all do that. Uh again what we started looking at and going
through as part of the phase one was the modernization and then some of those implementation components that you know part of tonight's discussion is what do we want to do from a phase 2 component and whether or not that's a master plan it's some of these design standards some of these components and we'll talk about
that a little bit as well. So on the left are the items that have been completed up to date. There's a couple of things that you can see. It says in review. Those are items that are currently under review uh with staff kind of also going back and doing the Senate Bill 180 back check. Uh but then
you know once those come to to fruition again we're going to be moving we actually have started kind of looking at the phase 2 approach of what you see right there which is beyond the code cleanup for the zoning regulations. What else do we need to be identifying? There was a list that we created early on that
said this is phase one, this was phase two, but more importantly being able to get out to the LPA and this group here going, okay, what are you all seeing and hearing? You walk your streets, you understand your constituents, you're hearing those components of what's working, what's not, what's going on
from a parking and access situation. What's going on from a signage situation? What are things that are above and beyond the standard, we'll call it state statute component, whether or not it's septic to sewer or some of the the nutrient loading and storm water, but what are those things that we think we might be able to do or more
importantly that we need? And I'm going to come back to Mr. Harris with the plan unit development. That's something that, you know, it's a tool in the toolbox. Does that mean that every single project needs to be a PUD moving forward? No. Does that mean they have the option of
meeting certain criteria? Absolutely. Is that a smart play? Why not? So in the phase one where you're doing this cleanup, there's obviously the with these inconsistencies are I imagine that this state bill 180
plays into this if we have some that are more rest which one is more restrictive and which direction you take on that inconsistency. So are you handling that at this point on the on the phase one? We are and that's the reason we have not brought uh landscaping and lighting and a couple of the other components including some of the zoning ordinance
uh because we've been going back and relooking with staff also with uh some of our uh external staff when I say our external staff. So I've got development partners that are not involved with this project and we're shipping them pieces and parts to go in your opinion could
this be more burdensome than what's on on the books right now. So literally just trying to ensure that and again we're not going to be 100%. Nobody can uh especially when we hear the terms potentially more burdensome. Uh and as you can see, you know, we've
got it on that little box right there, the Senate Bill uh 180 considerations. And that goes for both phase one as well as phase two. Uh again, as we start looking through and talking through the different phases, you know, part of it is what do we want to do as a community? What do we feel the most comfortable
with? What as a city and as elected officials do we want to start to implement from a visionary standpoint? Now, when we start looking at some of these design goals are we saying, "Oh, by the way, Kimley Horn's going to do a master plan." No, we're going to have, you know, an outreach component where we
have the open house. We're talking to residents and, you know, but at the same time, are we doing the community vision as part of this? No. we are specifically looking at a a very core component uh based off of that scope of services. Um does this say that we wouldn't partner
with somebody that if the city so desired to do a master plan? No. Absolutely. What I would say is if you go that route, we would 100% want to be have a seat at the table to be a partner with the city to kind of be asking some of those questions as the visioning process is going on and the master
planning process of okay, this is great. Now, how do we kind of look at it from the code perspective or what does this potentially do from our code and the things that we've done as part of phase one? Uh, this is a pretty common practice. Not saying that we're sitting there throwing stones at somebody going,
you can't do that, but just asking them same tough questions of as they're kind of looking through some of this visioning. What does that look like from the code? And as we've said to a couple of individuals of like you know if you are going to go the master plan route you're going to have community workshops
have us at those community workshops and break the room up into the vision versus the code. Why? Because people will get uh outreach overload. They will start to become numb to the process. So if we have vision and outreach uh for you know
we'll say next month and then two months from now we come back with uh we'll say code first question we always get hit with is well didn't we just do this? Well, no, that was for the comp plan. Well, what's different? Because the, you know, we've got, we've got some very intelligent people in this community,
but at the same time, they a lot of times will start to kind of mix up comp plan, land use, vision, and code, and it's very simple and easy to do. Was there getting ready to be a question? Oh, okay. Um this was our initial schedule and I know based off of
some of the discussions that uh this group has had you know this this was identified as part of our scope of services. However, what we've also talked to staff about to say is like if the city desires to go down the path of a parallel master plan or visioning process. You know probably what we say
is one you need to be very concise and specific on the time frames for that plan. uh it can't drag out too much because you don't want to lose the momentum we have going with phase one and potentially on phase two but at the same time can they run kind of parallel
or slightly concurrent absolutely and they should because again the vision is going to help inform the phase two components of the code so if you start to go down like I said a pathway of master plan and this don't put the code my personal thing opinion is don't put the code on hold until the plan is
adopted because then all you think only thing that you've done is put yourselves another 6 to9 months or whatever behind the process. Run them concurrently. Run them slightly behind each other. And that way people know what's going on because here's the vision, the plan, and
the code all kind of being presented together. So, this is where I'm going to start to be a little bit more quiet. Um, for some of you, you're going to be like, "Well, surprised it took you this long." But this is the most important part of this
meeting. There are no right or wrong answers. This is your big ideas. What are the takeaways? And we've kind of pre-populated this to get your thoughts. Uh is it about the master plan? Is it about funding? And I know especially with our county uh partners here, uh
those three little letters that start with a C could be a four-letter word. Um and we're not advocating, oh, thou shalt do a CRA. No, we're just saying there's funding options out there across the board. Um, are there CRAAS in Penelis County? Yes. Are there challenges? Not
challenges, but are there uh is there increased scrutiny because of the number of CRAAS that the county currently has? Absolutely. Should there be? Absolutely. Um, but you know, it doesn't always have to be a CRA. There's other ways to do certain things. And that's where I'm
saying, you know, creative funding can come into play with some of these components as well. uh are we concerned about design standards? You know, what do the buildings look like? Is it not only the placement but also what the window windows look like or what are those other items for consideration that we
want to make sure we're kind of looking at uh from phase two and moving forward. So, with that, and I've used this once before, but this was uh courtesy of my professor in college. Uh, and actually we kind of pare it down a little bit, but uh, questions, comments,
perplexities, anomalies, or other general paranoia? >> Uh, CRAAS. So, what alternatives are there to that? I mean, CRAAS in theory are a beautiful thing, but I was in St. Pete Beach as a commissioner and we
tried to get a CRA through the county and we couldn't get approved. We tried for several years and I don't think they ever got approved. So, is the county open to CRAAS. We were told it was because it was a we were in a low income area
and you know the beaches are not going to be low income. So does that mean we're so on that or >> so you might touch on this? I don't believe we've had a CRA come our way since I've been on the commission. I do know that the CRAAS
uh have fallen out of favor with a lot of the members of the commission because they seem to stay dormant and there's no incentive to to move it along. So, any CRA that comes to the county commission should uh show a good incentive
uh to to to redevelop the properties in the CRA. You could say, "Hey, you know, we're changing this, we're changing that, and this is really going to make it happen." And they would need they would need to be short-term. That's just my read on the other county commissioners. It need to be short-term. It would be need need to be something
that's like, oh well, if you let people do this, it's definitely going to get this is going to happen and it's going to increase the tax base for the city. So, and and that's what I would like to see as well. So, and and I will say that that is a very very valid point because and again I
work with a lot of CRAAS across the state. they're out there for 20 years and you start asking the question, well, what did you do this year? Well, we had a festival downtown. Okay, what else? Um, so, and I would definitely encourage you because, you know, Penllis County took the the step as as being a charter
county to say we want measurable goals for these types of projects. There's other partnerships that you can have outside of the CRA with the county. And, you know, the county is a great partner, but the county has a lot of other partners at play here as well. So, um,
>> so I actually had conversation with the chair of the county commission, Brian Scott, last week as well as Peters. And it was made very clear multiple reasons,
but one mention um that Treasure Island being the financial We are we have property owners who want it's not you know we have properties for sale that no one will develop
our restrictions and the ROI there um and they made it very clear that especially chairman Scott that treasure island I
mean the chances of ever getting a CR are slim to none. We don't qualify for it. We have developers ready to develop. Um, you know, they're not asking for
funding. They're just asking for the ability to be able to build and get a reasonable return on investment. So, in speaking to the two commissioners, they both very similar to what he said. The appetite is definitely not there
and Tarpon Springs was used as very good example of ones that have gotten them and done nothing with them and been a very poor investment and it continues to be a poor investment and not only does
the county commission it appears not have an appetite for it. the governor himself has no appetite for it and it is one of the things that he discourages and so it's kind of a trickle down that starts in Tallahassee and definitely has
has come to Penelis County so I just kind of wanted to touch on that what you had said because I did have those conversations last week >> well when they say you're not doing anything what do they want us what I don't understand what's that mean we're not doing anything >> so the way it was described to with
Tarpon Springs was they were they presented they were given CRA and literally no development it just sat there and basically the
property devalued etc etc. So in the meantime you know of course they didn't mind funds and again it's You can definitely look up and take a look at that. That was the one given to me as an example because
nothing was done was given for area and it sat. So it was a CRA that did nothing that cost the county and it was it did no benefit to
>> so they didn't incentivize >> the developers to come in and do it. I mean that's up to us. I mean, if we can present a plan that shows that, you know, we can get the the uh redevelopment, I don't know why we couldn't be approved.
>> The way it was put to me was the beaches as a whole, >> our property values are, >> you know, the highest. I mean, and Treasure Island is some of the highest value property in P County. Not my
opinion, again, what I was told. Um, and reason alone this area in Tarton Springs was not a good area just like Leman has had you know it's tip district um south heat certain parts of golf court etc
they're poor areas where people don't want to go in and develop we don't have that issue we don't have a problem with people not wanting to come in and buy property and develop it we have a problem with our current property owners who've owned properties for decades who
just don't have the ability at this point with cost of construction and everything else that comes with that. The return on investment isn't there. It's not that they don't want to do it. It's just return on investment has to make sense just like it does for us, you
know, as individuals. But nevertheless, we still are a what considered a wealthy community and our property values are high and people do want to develop. We're not like South St. area. That's how it was explained to me
because I was very curious. >> And mayor, my apologies for kind of taking us down that little bit of a rabbit hole, but the reason we kind of brought that up was, you know, we know that there's a lot of interest and emphasis in the downtown area. um you know if if this body wants to go a
couple different ways uh which is hey we've got a master plan you know how do we start to implement some of those components the code is one portion of that but also what are those incentives or programs or partnerships to where it truly becomes like a P3 if that's the
desire of this group and does that mean that the county is involved with X why you know ask they they're not you know they're not going going to sit there and go, "Oh, yeah. We're absolutely going to do that." Nor should and I and I don't think anybody is sitting there saying, "Oh, well, they're
not doing this." But reason we were saying, you know, talk about the master plan because we know that is front and center with a lot of people's minds and how does that play into the code and how do some of those big ideas start to take shape in the funding and oh by the way,
how do we start to code some of those components? So again, there is a lot of different pieces and parts to this discussion and it's because it's not just the code itself. And can I ask uh Mayor Brooks, you u use PDs in Madera Beach, correct?
Are you willing to give your opinion on because research I've done and stuff PDS are really what incentivizes and starts moving development. Can you kind of expand on how that helped you?
So I think PDs are controversial like any development is, but the in my opinion the value in a PD is it allows the city the opportunity to work with the um developer so that the city gets something back out of it. I mean to put
it simply, your planning department negotiates with the developer so that when the developer is building something, they could build it by right and the city gets nothing. If you give them a little bit more than by right, then the city usually in a well-negotiated plan, the city ends up
with great incentive and the developer ends up with something also. So, it's a win-win for everyone. That is my personal opinion. That's how I've seen it work really well, not just in MadiRaa Beach, but in many different communities. >> When you talk about giving them
something that goes beyond what the code allows, are you talking about height and density primarily? could be could be height. Giving a couple extra stories. Um I mean I have been a my voice on height.
You might not like the opinion but very often if you'll stop focusing on height and focus on the building itself. Two stories doesn't really make that big of a difference because if if you you could take for instance in Madiraa we have
some buildings that were built. They're short and fat. There's no green space. You can't see around them. If we had allowed those buildings to have been built what was originally approved, which was a little bit taller. You can't really tell the difference of
that a little bit taller. But when you go past those buildings now, you can't see around them. So just imagine you do a short fat building that when you drive down the street, you can't see the beach. Let the building be a little bit taller and you can drive down the street
and see the beach. you can see around the building. And that is I mean that's my personal opinion. It's how I would vote that you have to think beyond the height, think beyond the stories and what does that look like when the building is built out for the community.
I'll comment on that because I talked to my friend on the other PD what the mayor was saying basically and the downtown property is perfect example of that. So let's say five stories.
So, and we all know the Canyon effect where it's right on the road. So, what they did was negotiate with property owners that okay, the front part of it is two stories. You have your cafes, you have your setback,
you have so you have everything we want. You have the shops, the mix, the retail at two stories in the front. Very similar to our Marriott steps back in height and nobody realizes in the back 10 or nine or 10 stories high
because of the way it steps back and the way they did it. Okay. So, you're going to give the city the setback. So, you're not creating a canyon effect, but behind that instead of allowing you to go five stories, we're going to allow you to go seven stories. That's how they used it and
that was kind of the give and take. So we're getting what we want which is that non canyon effect with the setbacks and the coffee shops and cafes or whatever it is do and then behind that we're really not paying much attention to you
allow them give them an extra couple stories in order to get what we want. That's how it was explained to me. Any >> So, Mayor Brooks, um I agree with what you're saying about, you know, getting something around, you know, it's good for both. And that's what I that's what
I've been talking about with the Thunderbird. I'm not talking about height at all. Talking about you, do we get some type of parking or what can we get that we both and then it's been cricket so far. So, I I just want something that we we can both get something good out of it. And then along
with the CRA thing, I think I I agree with you. I don't think anyone's going to do a 30-year CRA anymore or any of that, but I think some of these, you know, some of the other commissioners have have said, you know, it's something we would take a look at. And if even if we could get five years, I just want I I
want whatever we can get that will jumpst start development and that will, you know, benefit both the city and and and and >> I could just say this that in our city, our community development department works with the developers. Um, and I I'm
I'm sure it's no different here. The developer brings in a project, it goes to community development first. They start negotiating. they speak with us and the community development department has they're currently working in our city on a property or on a build and I
think they're doing a great job. Um I don't know exactly where the project is now but we've been given some updates along the way and I think that the community will like what will be presented based off what we've seen so far. But um big kudos to that department
because that is who's really negotiating on your behalf whether it is getting public restrooms, a um a place for concerts to be held, parks, parking, whatever that might be. And to um Vice
Mayor Vasquez's comments, you know, when you're looking at a building nowadays, you see so many buildings being built that conceal the parking and you can't even tell. And we are utilizing the stepbacks in MadiRaa and it is so that
you can not see the total height. One example of that in our city that's been there for quite some time is the parking garage down at John's Pass. It doesn't look like a parking garage, but it is a parking garage and it's taller than what you would probably realize because of
the way it was designed and built. >> Thank thank you Mayor Brooks for attending today. I thought that was an interesting comment by that beautiful fire station that you guys have in the city of Madera Beach. Um, one of the things to answer that like what we want to hear from you that I think it kind of piggybacks off Commissioner Clark's
comments was I think in this process for the current property owners and the developers is for Kimley Horn in the city to ask them what they're looking for from the city. Like if for me to answer that question, I think it's simple. It's to find out the people that are currently trying to do something in
Treasure Island to invest in Treasure Island to get things jump started that Chris Clark was uh sorry, Commissioner Clark was was stating. I think that that's an important piece to this is adding in is because they should be coming in and it sounds like when they have the the access to the tools and resources like we had listed out that
you could make things happen. I mean, Madera Beach does has a has a a public um marina that's incredible. It's nicely wellkept and well utilized. And you know, I'm sure that there's future plans around that area as well as they guys as they continue to grow. So, number one, answering that question is to ask those
folks like what are they looking for because I think that we've all heard or or you know, I've been here for close to 40 years is it seems like there's restrictions like Mayor um Commissioner Vasquez was mentioning that that they're running into. So, if we can lift those restrictions and that's what we're here
to do today, I think that we can see some definitely progress move forward. Thank you. follow. >> Anyway, as a followup to that, talking specifically about our central business district, which of course it was torn
down in 2023, we have two zoning districts down there right now. A plan redevelopment mixeduse core and a plan redevelopment mixeduse Gulf Beach. Trouble is the city of Treasure Island did a redevelopment plan and it was put
in place back in 2009 and obviously it didn't work because nothing ever happened. What is the possibility of taking that and vacating those two type of uh all those restrictions that redevelopment plan and basically coming
up with what we're talking about is a plan development and ask the owners, hey, present us with what you want and then we'll start negotiating from there. I mean, it's strictly what the PD is. And uh I personally would love to vacate
that plan where the city is trying to tell the developer what he wants. Yeah. Or what the city wants, but turn the uh tables and say, "Okay, developer, tell us what you want and let's go from there." And that's what I'd really like to see. And what do you think the
possibility of doing that is? >> So, I'm going to go back to uh the comment you were saying, you know, go go ask the property owners. So that is part of our scope of services is to meet with with individuals as well. I mean do the open house and and schedule some of those opportunities. The one thing we
don't want to do and is we go meet with a bunch of people and next thing you know we're getting called to the mayor's office. He goes, "Hey, by the way, you met with and we we have no idea what's going on with the project." And I know that's not what you're saying, but more importantly, just knowing that this is kind of that formal kickoff to phase two. This is what we need to be able to
hear, need to understand, and also start to let you know staff know of who who are the big players, who are the when I say the big players, but who are those property owners that, you know, would really like to have a seat at the table and be talking with us on certain
things. Um, you know, Brooke and I are working on a project right now over in Lakeland, uh, for the Dixie Land CRA, uh, 72 acre redevelopment centered on South Florida Avenue. We got lucky because we got Dixie Land. Another team got the Midtown, which is 7,000 acres.
Um, which I'm like, God bless you all on that one. But you know we've had a series of targeted discussions with the major land owners and we have those scheduled because you know they've made the the major investment in properties
and it's it's good to understand okay what worked what didn't what are they seeing and what are they hearing uh because I mean I can come at it from a regulatory standpoint I can come at it from a community outreach standpoint but I don't have the skin in the game like some of the folks like the Wallers
and some of the folks that are over there uh to be able to understand and even asking them where else are you working that works and why. So similar type of approach that we do with all of our codes and all of our public project facing projects. So as far but going
back to your question that's one of those things we'll need to be able to kind of review vet discuss think through and then more importantly uh make sure we're not affecting property rights. I mean because in our planning and zoning meetings or LPAs I mean I'm always
asking Joan is is she involved like in projects that are potentially coming or whatever because I think that that's important from from that role's perspective. I mean you look over in Madera Beach you see there John's Pass you know bumping especially you know seafood festival was I think was last week and it's incredible to see that you
look across the bridge and we got Treasure Island and from my perspective like that that's not going to cut it. So, and it's like, well, what do we need to be doing now to help this city move forward? I can tell you what we shouldn't be doing. It's the same thing that we've been doing the last 25 years
because look, look in the position that we're in. So, that's why, you know, I appreciate Commissioner Clark's like push like let's get, you know, let's get some things going. And again, for everyone's time today. >> Yeah. I I think that uh I I've heard a
couple people talk about Thunderbird and um and I think that Thunderbird has a good plan and I think that Thunderbird is not being heard. Um you know there's a couple of things that are taking place. First of all, if you asked anybody in the room, what is Thunderbird really looking for? Well, yeah, they're
looking for additional height, but they're going to want what they want to build is six over one. And a lot of people were thinking, you know, that oh, this is going to be eight, nine stories, whatever. it it's not. The other thing is is that they also have uh the side
setbacks are about three times what they are today. And that gives uh as people pull up at 107th and Gulf Boulevard, it gives them a view of the Gulf and and that is
that that's very important. I mean, yes, they're going to have some parking there, so the cars are going to be there, but they're they're not building out. they're building up additionally uh but it's giving them the opportunity to to really make something and to have
that wow factor when you come on to the island and I think that that that's uh extremely important for us. parking. They're uh they're going to be building uh it looks like um about 181 rooms, but their parking is going to be someplace in the 240 range. And they're willing to
talk with us about what they want to do with parking and uh and have the city involved in what that's going to be. So, I think that, you know, a lot of it I we hear so much about hiden density and what it's so bad and it's this that and the other and it really isn't. I think
that what we need to do is and see somebody that really has the money to build it themselves. Um that's uh that's going to be uh important as well. I think that that's going to what that's going to be the item that gets everybody else on the island and developers off
the island excited about what Treasure Island is going to do. Again, >> I agree with Commissioner Clark that a a give and take agreement is very important. Uh, Mayor Brooke, I do have a question for you. I understand that uh, Medier Beach just went through a master
plan. Uh, I want to know how how much did it cost the city and how long did it take? >> So, we contracted with Kimley Horn in April of 2024 for $150,000 and we are in the final phase of
approval of that plan. I can tell you that our experience was fantastic. Um they were very engaged with the community. Uh the approach that our commission has taken is it isn't about what the five of us want, it's about
what the community wants. And they kicked off, we had no less than 12 meetings with staff that they did u monthly updates. They met with the community. We did town hall meetings where they came in and did these type of
boards. had the community write down on sticky notes what they wanted to see in that master plan as well as when we would have a community event going on, whether it was our monthly trash pickup that is um conducted by trash pirates or if it was a carnival or something else
going on. See how I gave that plug to the trash pirates. Um they would come out and set up a table and so they engaged in the community that way. it. So, it was really for us, we're going to end up with a master plan that suits the community as a whole and not just a few
people within the community. >> Gavin, I have a question for you. Uh, would it be a conflict for Kimberly Horn to do the master plan as well if they submitted a bid? >> Um, I don't see one apparent right off.
I mean, um I think that as as discussed in the workshop previously, they could submit a quote, um or the city could request a quote and provide that at the November 4th meeting if uh as a commissioner, can I request Kimbley Horn
to submit a quote for a master plan? >> The the the answer to that would be no. What we need to do is go through the city manager giving him authority to do that and not you taking that authority to to get in the middle of it. >> I'll make sure they're aware of our
quote soliciting that's going on this week. >> Thank you, Charles. >> And I just kind of wanted to tag a little bit off of what the mayor was saying um and I believe you as well, couple of you as well. Um, exactly what
you said about the Thunderbird to me is proof that talking to our property owners and our developers and seeing what they need and working with them, I wouldn't call it a PD because I don't think we can technically call it that, but that's what we're doing. We're
negotiating with them. And that's the whole purpose. If we treat our developers and our property owners, commercial property owners, like they're the enemy and oh, they're greedy. Oh, all they want is money, money, money, money. Well, they want a return on their investment like all of us do if we make
an investment. No different than the Thunderbird owners. Um, the Thunderbird hasn't gotten as much, not saying they haven't gotten a lot of of negativity. Um, but not as much because it's historic. We all love it. We all want to see it come back better
than ever. However, just in the conversations and we haven't even gotten down because we have to get past the next vote to where we're having the negotiations with them of how many public parking spots we can get and and I heard the same thing from them that
John is. But if people refuse, you know, if we as a board and the people as a whole refuse to speak to the very people that own our commercial properties and treat them like the enemy, we're not going to get anywhere. I don't care what
we do, who we bring in. If we do the master plan, no matter who or what it is, if our private property owners don't buy into it, we're this is still the United States of America. they still own their property and they've owned again the majority of
them have owned it for over a decade or two or three in some cases. So the Thunderbird is definitely the perfect example of why working and listening to the commercial property owners and
developers is so important because then we can get a win-win for everybody, a win-win for the entire community. And I don't know of one property owner that I have spoke to in Treasure Island that does not want something beautiful. Um,
all but one of them live in Treasure Island, have families in Treasure Island. Why would they want a big ugly concrete building? They don't. They want to look at something beautiful that they're proud of and that their kids are going to be proud of. But when we treat them like the enemy because height and density, height and density, that's
that's proof is what's happening with the Thunderbird of what is so important and being a quas PD um negotiations are so important. >> So it from Mayor Doctor's comment about heightened density not being that bad,
um I mean I think that that's obviously interesting. I I know that we keep referring it to the Thunderbird. I just want to recall that it's for the entire district. It's not just for or sorry zone, not just for the Thunderbird. I think that that's important to call out um because there is other opportunities um one and Mayor Brooks had made the
comment about um that I loved the higher that you should make the comment about the height creating more green space down below. I mean, that is a very I think that's something that we really need to highlight because the higher that you go, the more green you got below. So there's people out there that don't want height, but they also want
more green space. So this is one of those things where you could get more green space down below if you do allow. So I was happy to see some of the progress that was made on Tuesday, but I also think that it is conjunction whether it's the Thunderbird or it's any of these other parcels when it comes to
well, what's John's Pass going to do? What's our downtown area going to do? So when it comes to that's great that the Thunderbird and maybe some other ventures on on Golf Boulevard want to invest in Treasure Island, but I'm firm believer that they are probably watching what is going to happen in downtown or
what is going to happen in John's Pass. So I I don't know when's the right time, but if if we are going to do, you know, heightened density or or negotiations for that side, we probably need to also figure out from a g from a from a downtown perspective. like you you can't
have downtown be shorter or smaller than I mean I love that you're nodding your head because that's it's I mean so one of the questions I would have is like is it wouldn't it from all the work that you've done when it comes to a downtown area is it is there some type of stat out there that says your downtown is
usually the the biggest the highest most intensity density type of area compared to other units within a city or other zonings within a city because the Again, I'm trying to get away from what we have stagnant today. And if that's great,
we're going to do all this stuff on Golf Boulevard, but if we don't touch these other areas, like Chairman Harris had mentioned previously, there's a good chance that nothing happens on G Boulevard because downtown's just going to look like what it is today. John's Pass is going to look like it has the last 18 years or 22 years, whatever the
number is. >> I'm I'm a huge proponent of right size, right place, and excuse me. Uh there's not a hard and fast rule that we learn in planning school that says, "Okay, thou shalt have whatever." But you know, the the the downtown that
central business district is the heart of the community. That's where the majority of your activities, whether it's residential or employment or retail and civic functions should really start to occur. And you know, think about this, uh when you fly out of Tampa or
St. Pete or Orlando and all of those areas. Now, I know Orlando is one of those great places that you're only an hour from Orlando when you're driving through there, but um that is not mine. I actually stole it from a partner of mine. Uh but just look out the window.
Where's the height in St. Pete? It's in that rectangle area between 375, 175, 275 going down to that point and then it starts to taper. Look at, you know, uh downtown Tampa. look at where some of
these components are because, you know, generally understanding that, you know, that's that's where a lot of your infrastructure is. That's where you can have additional height and it functions. Um, does it need to be six stories versus 20? That's a local preference at that point.
I have a question for Gary Volnac. Um uh what's your uh opinion and expert experiences on PDS? >> In a previous life, I was a consultant and worked on several PDs. Um, typically
it was, as it's been previously discussed, a point of negotiation between the the uh the land owner, the developer, the city, the county, and um and it was usually a very successful process. There was give and take, but uh
every project I was involved in came to successful fruition. So, um I'm I'm supportive of it. Did I heard correctly? You said you have >> I was a participant as a civil engineer, but there was also, you know, there were
planners, uh, architects, a lot of other >> Okay. I thought I just wanted >> I I'd like to make a couple of comments here. Uh, one is about the the downtown uh area. I'd like to see love to see that develop, too. But our downtown is a
quarter mile long. It's not downtown Tampa. It's not downtown St. Pete. It is a quarter mile long stretch of road. So, which is very close to uh the rest to to the beaches and stuff like that. So, when you start talking about tall even
taller buildings downtown, I get I do get a little bit nervous about it. Another thing when we talk about uh that we haven't talked at all about is res what what do the res residents want? and we, you know, we set up here and we talk and we make a lot of sense in terms of
of what's right for for the through a business perspective. I can tell you most of my constituents are not convinced that you have to do any higher than 50 over one to to to develop the downtown to develop the beach. You might have to, but we
haven't. We, the commission, the city, nobody has convinced most of our residents that a five over one plan doesn't work. So, so I think we need to, you know, we need to prove to people that if if you you honestly believe that, you need to show it. Uh, and then
let me talk about planned development agreements for a second, too. I uh I 90 I love 95% of what planned development agreement occurs, but it scares the hell out of me. excuse me for using that expression here, but it scares me a lot
when I think that uh somebody in community development and I'm not pointing this at anybody uh specifically, but that whoever might be negotiating that if let's say we settle on 6 over1 or 80 ft maximum height. Let's say that's what we end up if we
then say okay in addition to going to 60 over one or 80 ft uh that community development has the or or the you know the city commission somebody has the authority to negotiate even over that say okay we know we gave you 80 ft here
but since you're going to give us a nice uh uh overpass walking overpass over Golf Boulevard we're going to let you go another two stories beyond that. So, so I get a that that's the piece of the plan development agreement that I get
nervous about is is going even over what our code is is and we're about ready to I mean I'm going to continue to resist increasing height and density. But if if if that battle is lost to give that flexibility that you can negotiate even
more height uh by by agreeing to uh some more public improvements uh scares scares me immensely. Didn't you just vote yes for >> 50 at the last meeting? >> I voted yes to remove RFM30 from from that code.
>> So So just just Commissioner Dicki. So in regards to the five over one on how it doesn't work, right? And you said your residents and yourself are not convinced that the five over one doesn't work. I wish we were in the other chambers so we could look out the
windows and look over there because it doesn't work. It's it's clear the same restrictions that are there. And by the way, that is a our our downtown is designated by I think by the uh county as a activity
center. Like it's it's supposed to be a bumpin supposed to be a a welloiled event area or attraction or however they want to describe it within their language. So I look over there and I say, "Hm, five over one. it ain't
working. Same thing with John's Pass. Not working. What we have there today is not working. On top of that, in favor of a lot of people's uh thought process is they say they don't want a canyon effect. I think probably I don't know the stat, but a lot of people aren't
educated in regards to if something were built today on that property, it would be basically on the road. It's forced to be built on the road. So, we have to change it. That that that is true. So we have to change it. So if we are going to
go back and say okay well we don't want these buildings on the road because no one wants buildings on the road. We've made I've made that very clear. No one wants buildings on the road. It is going to come back. Well what what happens? We are we making the footprint smaller for
the building. There has to be some type of conversation between whatever is going to go there and the future of Treasure Island. And that may increase and could create green space down below. it could create a walkway. Um, another
thing that's more valuable to the city is if we can get downtown or Golf Boulevard or John's Pass going, it also helps 108th. You know, we have areas over on 108th that that are going to be for city development. And if we can get all these projects working together, I wanted to
add 108 to the conversation because that's us. We own it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Keep keep in mind as we're talking through this PD discussion um one comment that I made earlier is like the plan unit development does not give us cart blanch to go above and beyond the comprehensive plan. It still has to
be consistent with those items. Uh so there there is in in Brooke and I have written a number of codes where it's like here's by right you know you go to X above that requires a you know a separate process or a separate thing or gets into some of the community benefits. Uh there's a lot of examples
around, you know, if and I'm just going to use this one because Brook's been working on this with the city of Sarasota uh with their parking incentives to where there's a trade-off for public parking for versus increased square footage or some of those things. So there there's a lot of tools in the
toolbox that can be applied and and more importantly right sized for this community. Um you know that's one of those great things about Yeah. I mean we're not advocating for again 20 stories on a quarter mile stretch. what's the context and what's that step down?
>> So the update to the LDRs will and the way in which those LDRs set density limits or height limits when you have a PD that it has to still stay within that. So there that goes to this maximum. You still get the chance to do
negotiation around that. But I think going forward we'll have to consider how that plays so that PDS can actually be done. you can't keep it too restrictive, otherwise they basically have done nothing. So, I agree with that. But that that we're interpreting that correctly,
Kelly. >> Kelly, we're going to be taking a look at uh about 15 minutes and try to wrap it up. Then we're going to have some uh some of the public comment. >> I I'm here to speak, keep writing stuff down and Brooke taking a lot of notes. So, this this is your meeting, your
workshop. Uh so at whatever point you want to start pivoting or whatever, I'm we're happy. >> Okay, great. I would like to make one comment to assuage uh Commissioners Dickiy's fears. You know what we've talked about on the
LPA. It's just uh something to kickstart uh the redevelopment of this city. And the fact is that we would set a maximum height and that's what I all I've ever heard is 7 over
one. You know, eight stories total. So I don't get the impression that uh we're going to go eight stories today and then in three years come back 10 stories and another three years 12 stories. No, this is a one-shot deal in my opinion. And uh
I would be definitely against anything higher than eight stories at this point, but uh we do need to have that tool in the toolbox. And uh I think it needs to be in any commercial district, any uh
hotel district, and any um of the uh oh of the last district, the downtown central business district. Thank you. You know, I think all these concerns that have been brought up just reiterate that the need for the having a master
plan. You know, Mayor Brooks, you mentioned how I think you're getting better public buy in because you have this master plan under development and it's the reason our commission and the city's considering one now. So, I'm encouraged that we can get this done if we if we actually have a master plan
around it. So, Kelly, can uh can we kind of talk about the uh the timeline and the public outreach? Oh, >> thank you, Mayor. Everybody was there for
And then most recent public record forward. public record. It's not all touch. We'll definitely be talking about it. >> Mayor, as far as what your schedule was, I mean question, I put back up on the uh
the screen the schedule. This is the way that we had initially approached and this is prior to the master plan discussion of course. So you know if if we are thinking about the master plan then I would definitely encourage us to have a little bit more discussion at this point as far as what what is the
end date what's the goal between the master plan the time frame and the code the one thing we don't want to do is to go down the pathway of we start doing or we come up with phase two and the next thing you know then the master plan comes and gets adopted or gets approved and then we're flip-flopping stuff at
the tail end and it's the tail wagging the dog at that I think you you spoke earlier and said that, you know, we really need to be on a a consolidated timeline. >> Uh it can be maybe a month or a couple weeks or it can be all at once. But yes,
I I agree with you that uh we need to uh begin that process talking with Kimley Horn uh to see what we can get done. I don't have any additional remarks, mayor. So with >> Okay. So we will uh move into the public
comment and uh the first uh is Andrew Vasey. I want to talk about three things CRA return on investment and master on the CRA. Um I don't believe Brian Scott
speaks for the whole body. We have two other commissioners here today and I think the issue of the CRA will be thoughtfully brought forward to the county commission under the premise that turn not in a redevelopment mode but rebuild mode given the hit we took
from the hurricane the amount of damage to our public facilities are go across the street our police and fire in little trailers other buildings are empty building little sheds for everybody so we need proper facilities. The CRA can
help fund that. I think um the negotiations of the city with these developers need to be done by people who are informed of what a CRA is or tip and how it can be done. So we don't get something like a pretty face to parking
lot, but we actually get 200 parking spaces that are available for the city and we trade them access to some taxfree bond financing part. I think this hasn't been thought out at all. I think that to to say that the
uh county commissioners won't consider it isn't advocating for our citizens. Why don't you say, well, I talked to the county commissioners who said Treasure Island will never get it. Say, well, let's find a way to get it. We can't get 30 years to roll up the longest CRA that
the legislation allows. Let's ask for five. Uh Commissioner Sheriff just mentioned five. Commissioner Noiki is sitting. So this CRA topic is something that is right for discussion and Treasure Island is not about how much
income people make here. It's about the damage we sustained and the need that we need to rebuild and our infrastructure, our lift station, our subp pump stations. Everything else is lost. No one's saying anything. We would go to the county commission with those kinds of requests. We're not looking to build a grand resort that's only a club for
residents of Treasure Island and asking you to see that. But we're looking for actual improvements for rebuilding. So I'd say that on return on investment, I keep hearing that commissioners, the LPA, the the investors over here, nobody put a
number. They're not a piece of data out. Okay? So either you guys get smart enough to put some brackets around these guys on their return on investment. Have them talk to you, show you some numbers, or else get smarter and realize if they're going to sell and you're going
to greatly increase their profitability, then take a piece of it for the city or for the residents. But don't do what you're doing now. You're rushing to a second reading. St. Pete Beach last week said, "We're not even going to go to a first reading until you, the developers,
come back on that coral avenue development and give us a better deal." and you're already through one reading and rush into a second. You're not using your knowledge base to negotiate the best interest of the residents as residents. We're not going to back down from coming after this. Thank you. Thank
you, >> West Evans. second testing one too. West Evans, Isa Palms. Like I said, Andy uh kind of stole some of my thunder there. Uh I believe the commission has the negotiating out of order. You don't
pass a second ordinance and then decide to start negotiating. Uh you do the negotiating beforehand. Uh everyone knows this. It's pretty simple. You find out you find out what the developers want.
You listen to the residents. Find out what they want. let's try to make something happen. And then you come back and start changing LDRs. You don't let one hotel's attorneys rewrite the LDRs just so they can uh sell off the land
then and the new new people buy it and there's no negotiating to be done at that point. You got to do the negotiating beforehand. Thank you. >> Christa, so I don't want to repeat everything that they just said. Um, but I'm going
to say it starts with finding the necessity. So confirming that Treasure Island meets 1 63 34 8 and 10. It's based on the evidence that actually exists. Repetitive loss of properties, outdated infrastructure, and deferred
maintenance and other coastal cities. It not Tarpon Springs. I'm talking Marco Island, Fort Meyers, um St. Pete is there's open seat. It it's it's being done right now. I don't think we've done the work to actually do the application,
but the the data and the evidence is there. So, I implore you to try because I bet you there is a way to get some kind of funding. Um, with that, I want to say thank you to the presentation team tonight. We definitely need a master plan. We know we know this
language very, very well. You asked one thing about funding and it's fiscal governance and one thing our city's missing right now is the oversight of that. So what's not being said is a taskmaster to the master plan. So with it, this is great. It could there will
be a plan. I see what you're doing in Madiraa. But MadiRaa is missing two major major components. And one is funding. And I will say you have to be experienced to negotiate. So I am a little concerned that it's taken this long to even get to this point. And I
think that's pretty much it. >> Yeah. No, I I Exactly. And the master plan is basically having somebody who has the oversight because I haven't heard am I? Yes. Okay. Um which is intertwined with the community development. So it's two separate things
but intertwined which I haven't heard. I've only heard about the planning about the planning and not about the fiscal governments. That's a major portion of it which would be identified by somebody as a master planner. And then you have the tiers below them which are the urban
design and architecture the infra the engineering and infrastructure the federal state and coordination with is also with program funding support in addition to specialized technical mobility and hydrarology.
>> And one thing I did not hear in this is the first 60 days of this could be on onboarding vendors with an RFQ. Somebody asked how do you pay for this? You have to set the approp appropriation so it's actually accurate and then you go to market and you establish the best
meeting of the minds team to bring this forth over the next 5 months. And so essentially you can look at a phase plan of procurement governance then you do contracting mobilization and then you do your master plan development and engagement. We've already waited this long guys. Let's do it right.
>> Thank you. Thank you, Mitchell. >> Yeah, >> I don't know if I need a microphone, but it's here, so might as well use it. It's on. So Mitchell Shanklin Isa Palm 30-year resident here Treasure Island
chairman of the 2000 2010 vision committee 2015 vision committee on the LPA on the PNZ in 2014 we approved a PD for
downtown redevelopment 2014 that's uh how many years ago. I don't have a calendar here, calculator. It's a long time ago. Nothing's happened. Okay. I'm tired of seeing this town
looking like a slum. It's time to move forward. Whether the residents of and excuse me, Mr. Dicki, but the residents of Sunset, I'm sorry for them. They got their
properties destroyed. You know, we all have gone through hell. It's time to move forward. Thank you. Thank you, Sean Burns. I'll keep it short and sweet. uh seems to be the discussion about people
selling off the land once it's changed. Um and then what really doesn't make sense is about financing. I'm not sure where the financing part comes in. Um I'm honestly baffled by some of the
comments. It's clear that people in the room have never developed anything as it's very easy to find financing if you have a project that makes money. I mean, it's not hard to find money if you have a project that makes money. It doesn't make money, so then there's no
financing. It's that simple. Thank you, Sean. Marcus Winter. Good afternoon, Marcus Winters. Uh, Isa Capri, also a business owner and property owner in town. Um
just a couple of things. One, um I was a little late coming, but uh I think the city needs to adopt a PD a PD uh process. Um I'm in currently involved and I've been involved in Madiraa Beach for the
last couple of years and um we're getting ready to uh to go to a neighborhood meeting with a PD project within John's Pass. And just going through that, you know, you you take what the area has to offer, what the
people, what the residents want, what the business owners want. Nobody's building a project that you can't put people in that people are not going to be interested in being in. You want to build a project that the locals are going to support you. They're your customers.
We don't have that in Treasure Island. And the city has had itelves handcuffed for years. This is why we have not seen any developed in this town because people know you could not develop in Treasure Island. Um I hear height five over parking.
Um I hear a height restriction of 60 ft. I live in a house in the 50s, I have an 8ft ceiling. I go into any new building that has a 9 or a 10ft ceiling. That's what people are building now. That's what our res our visitors coming to Treasure Island. They want modern places
to stay. They don't want to stay in something that was built in the 50s. Five floors, 10 ft is 50 ft. We got to put something in between the floors to hold the building up. That's 2 ft maybe
on some of it. We're at 55 60 ft. We got to have 13 ft for a fire truck to go underneath it. Now we're at 73 74 ft. We're not building anything bigger than what's here. What's the difference at 60 ft to 80 ft?
You go downtown and go into a building, look at the fifth floor, then get off the sixth floor and see what the difference is. There is no difference at that height. Build it high, high enough that you can have some green space, have some space between the building. We got this uh
city of or the Treasure Island Resort. What did the the residents get for that? Nothing. the hard the only thing we inherited from the that resort is it's harder to get a a a table in middle grounds because it's so busy cuz their
restaurant they built it so small they're restricted so much we we didn't get anything from you can't park there it's it's it's you know what I mean as a resident I gain nothing from it um second point I wanted to bring or couple of points um when you're doing the LDRs
and you're doing restrictions I would also like to think about parking our parking restrictions. Sorry, I I'll just I'll be quick. Our parking restrictions very restrictive. You um nobody's taking into account Ubers.
Everybody here, I'm sure, has an Uber on app on the phone. People that come now, I own Caddies down there. A lot of my customers come by Uber, but I'm still restricted as to what seats I can have, as to how much parking I have. And then the last thing is just one thing I would
like the commission to consider is we all learned from the storm last year. If a hotel gets damaged or if a house gets damaged, they can rebuild back to their original footprint. A business can't. Gaddy's down there. I would like to, you
know, I'm putting $750,000 into a building that if it gets a flood next year, it's going to flood again. I would like to build a building that would stand a flood, but I'm losing 25 foot off Gulfport Boulevard. I'm losing 20 feet each side. I'm left with a little
matchbox inside it, and it doesn't make any sense. Thank you. >> Thank you, Marcus. And this will be our last public comment for the evening. Bill K. I'm Bill KS, um, former 20-y year resident here in, uh, Treasure Island,
currently residing in MadiRaa Beach, builder and a developer. I've, uh, I've done over eight PDs along the coastal communities here. PDS are, uh,
a long and arduous process. They don't happen overnight. You have neighborhood meetings. You have planning and zoning meetings. You have you ultimately it goes before the commission. The commission decides on a PD. Staff doesn't decide. You work with
staff as a builder developer. We uh are just putting through another PD which Marcus was talking about in John's pass. You can't do a a building with a floor of parking.
A building that's five over. You're not going to have enough parking. You have to have more parking. We're doing the Madira Beach Town Center down on 150th Avenue. That building has retail on the ground floor. It has two
floors of a parking garage and it has a wedding cake that goes up. The building's a total of I think 90 ft, Marcus, I think is the total of that building. We got a little extra height there. But what the city get? They got
public access, 20 foot sidewalks all the way around the property. They got a half an acre park right on the corner of Golf Boulevard and 150th Avenue for the whole community to enjoy. They got infrastructure, sewer, water.
Everyone thinks that a builder, a developer is going to come in, they're going to do one job and retire. Sorry, I'm 67 years old, been doing this for 44 years. One project doesn't make or break you. It's a career.
It's a profession. You have to have thoughtful development. And it all starts with a PD. The master plan, great idea. you have a master plan. What you really need is a PD
so individual property owners can can build something that makes sense. And it gives the city a chance to say, "Hey, this is what we need. We need public access. We need more green space. We need infrastructure work done." These
are the things that the city needs. And who pays for it? The builder and the developer. When you put these through for financing, that's another arduous process. Banks just aren't going out handing out $50 million, $100 million.
It's got to pencil itself out. It has to have a return on investment. It has to be profitable or no bank's going to finance it. I've done eight PDs. They work. painful for the developer because you
have to give up so much but very beneficial for all of the communities that we've done these in. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Bill. Eric Nory. Hi, I'm Eric Nory. I'm a resident of Isa Capri and a business owner here in
Treasure Island. owned the Treasure Island Car Wash and several pieces of property alongside of it. Um, I've I've I'm not a developer of 44 years. I'm just kind of getting into this thing. Um, the thing that I've found to be very
difficult, I've come to the city on several occasions saying, "I've got these properties. I'd like to know what you guys would like to see there. I'd like to build it." And I haven't had anybody step in my door yet. And I think that would be helpful to be able to sit down and do a PD. I think the master
plan sounds like a poor idea because we have one that's that's not been utilized and you have to go to somebody like people that own land and say, "Okay, this is our master plan. Now you build it." I've already spent 40 grand in just
architectural fees, civil engineering fees for a 790 foot coffee shop with a deck on it to try to figure out how much parking I can get there. I've gone back and forth with the city, back and forth with Jackie, back and forth with everybody. I'm thinking 40 grand on
plans for a 790 square foot coffee shop with a 30 by30 deck and 16 parking spaces is a little bit excessive, but I'm not in this business. But I keep going back because we go to the city and then no, you can't do this, so you got to go back and say, well, can you do
this? No, you can't do this. So then you go back. It just seems like a big waste of money and time. Um, but I don't know. That's just my experience of buying property 5 years ago here in Treasure Island. And so far, they are lots with
some weeds growing in them that I'm trying to kill as much as I can. But I really would love to do something really nice for Treasure Island, and I think the master plan is a waste of time. I think elevating downtown is a great idea. I think that we can all do it in a responsible way that doesn't make our
city look like a overrun, trafficked out, you know, tons thou, hundreds of thousands of people. I think we can have a good community with raising the height density and not getting so stuck on some of the minutia that we're getting stuck on. Um, we seem to go two steps forward
and then 10 steps back, changing things, changing things. I mean, it's been a year for a seaw wall. Just to put a seaw wall behind my house has been one year. It just got approved a year for a seaw wall. It's it's very very very difficult as a developer to sit on money and just
watch it go down the drain as you wait for everybody to make decisions. And a master plan if you're talking about another 12 to 18 months to see what we can do then what can we do after 12 to 18 months? We we can sit there and watch more money go down the drain and and
look at broken buildings and lots with nothing built on them. or we can get moving and be a little more lenient with some of the regulations and maybe stop like fighting, backbiting, bickering so much.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you, Philip Rooney. >> Thank you. I'm Phil Rooney. We're the uh developers of the NordVin. I don't know how many projects are going on right now, but I just thought I didn't plan on speaking, but I thought it might be helpful to hear about the economic
circumstances of our project and why it's happening. Um, so the project originally had a very it was a $7 million purchase and I'd be happy to anybody here to open the books up because it sounds like there are some problems with people understanding what
the math looks like for development here. So, you got your land basis, which was 7 million. We had a concrete structure built in ' 82. That was the only thing worth anything was the concrete. Everything else had to go. Um
we're looking at a $400 a foot renovation budget. It's $18,000 square ft. If we were to tear it down, we'd be looking at about $300 a foot in land cost. And in hotel development, you need to be 150k or under to make anything
work. And that's at very high rates. I mean, right now we are forecasting a 350 ADR. Um, we would have had to spend $100 a foot to make a 350 ADR work if it were not for the change to the zoning that allowed for FNB. Um, now we just went
through our special exception application process. That was our saving grace. Um, without that, this project would have been a half completed shell and it would have just sat there. Um, and we're still taking a huge risk, right? We're $5 million in cash into
this thing. We got a $7 million loan. That's not much leverage. You're asking for investors to really put their neck out there. And we're not talking about big returns right now. The equity market, debt funds are paying 10, 12%. That's really solid money for not a lot
of risk. Flip that to the risk of an investment like this, and the best I can offer my investors is maybe 16, 17%. Um, basically this is a long-winded way of saying fundamentally the problem is density.
Um, and the banks dictate that. The equity markets dictate that. I'm not rich. My car is outside. 150,000 miles on it. I live in Lakewood estates. I can't afford to live down here. So, the idea that, you know, developers are just rich guys coming in. Look, some are for
sure. And on the PD side, I would say PDs can be good and bad because a PD can be if you get a good negotiator at the city, great. But at the same time, they introduce an element of uncertainty and time to a development that then drives
up required investor returns. Is that actually helping you? or does just getting your master plan and your zoning straight. Maybe engage a economic development firm that does consulting that will come in and say, "Look, here's the actual true cost to develop in your
community. Here's where your land basis needs to be per unit per square foot to incentivize the market. Look, if development worked here, there's tons of developers out there that want to make money. If there were deals to be had in this town with as beautiful as it is,
they'd be getting built. That's all I got. >> Thank you very much. I want to wrap up now by thanking everybody for being here today and we appreciate uh our commissioners, county commissioners, our
mayor from MadiRaa Beach and everyone else. And with that, we will adjourn. Thank you very much.