##VIDEO ID:Yiu1QP43iSo## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e people on e e e e e e e e yes it is good evening and welcome to the regular Commission meeting for December 17th 2024 I'd like to call this meeting to order now if we could please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge of alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay city clerk please call the role commissioner Toth is absent commissioner crel here commissioner minning here vice mayor dicki here mayor doctor here moving on approval of regular and workshop agendas do we have any changes okay I do have one change for tonight uh I would like to put on U an item item I4 and item I4 is for permitting subsequent to the Hurricanes once again does anybody yeah the the actual title will be permitting subsequent to the Hurricanes is that not the topic of tomorrow night's uh Town Hall well the town hall is a little bit different we're going to be since we are putting it under uh an agenda item we are going to be taking a vote tonight on on this just this the permitting subsequent to the Hurricanes What specifically are we going to be voting on specifically we're going to be talking about something that we've pretty much already done before which is the uh the option two uh but the option two is uh is not placed when we uh we did not take a vote on option two we basically had uh it was a workshop and we basically just ran with the consensus and on this we're going to actually take a vote tonight on uh on this item so we'll get to the more detail at the the end of the evening all right uh no wait wait wait a minute um did you just unilaterally inter interject that yes on what basis on the basis that any Commission can unilaterally add anything to the agenda okay the only thing I'd like to add to that is anytime there's something on the agenda I'd like to have some time to review it uh spend some time analyzing it uh gather my thoughts get other people's opinion on it uh and adding it on at this last minute doesn't allow us to do that amen okay thank you okay no proclamations recognition certificates of appr appreciation public comments for non-agenda items uh Cory Evans I think the main thing that I want to just mention is our frustration that we can't get the documents we need um I I really would like clarification because I've been coming to these meetings and I think I heard that you guys agreed on um item two which would mean they don't have to have a permit to get started I'd like clarification of that but also the main thing is just I talked to uh Chuck earlier and he said they're trying to hire a bunch more people to do the permits but we really it's so frustrating that we can't get our documents of substantial damage or our permits and we need to do something to to make that better thank you Corey Brandy long hi thank you for taking my comment 11 days ago at the last meeting I asked every commissioner and mayor if they would participate in a town Town Hall style meeting allowing dialogue and human conversation with our community they all agreed and additionally recommended that the city staff including the city manager and City attorney be present to field questions Friday afternoon we were told yes that we will have a town hall meeting but the residents cannot speak you must submit your questions in advance and there will be no public comment today just hours ago an update was included with the announcement stating that questions would be allowed the link included in the updated announcement said a few additional questions will be allowed from the audience in attendance I'm concerned that my voice is not being heard my efforts are not being valued and we have been misinformed we need to know whether the Commissioners and the mayor support the decisions made by the city staff we also need to know if the city staff SL decision makers have made decisions that benefit their own roles and possibly their own future Investments as we strive for transparency I'd i' like to ensure that my questions are on record and answered tomorrow night as the community's voice is crucial I will be emailing them also as directed by public the Public Announcement said to email them so I'll do that my questions are as follows who made the initial decision to proceed with option one were all the Commissioners and mayor educated on the specifics and details of option one and two prior to option one being chosen during the special meeting November 1st at 9:00 a.m. the commission and mayor voiced their preference to move forward with option two why was there not a formal vote why didn't the City attorney advise the commission and mayor on the next steps for a formal vote for option two during the November 1st special meeting when is the first when the first batch of substantial letters were sent out why did they not have a percentage listed if the amount was over 50% why did the city not use the provided actual cash value figure on the detailed reports why did the city instead use the much lower penelas County property appraiser value whether our residents properties are under 50% or over 50% why are the residents not given that detailed report those are my questions and I hope that they're answered tomorrow and they aren't put in a research pile thank you thank you Mark H oh sorry I had my mic down uh good evening Mark Hoy 225 104th Avenue District 3 um couple of weeks ago we had uh some discussion and back and forth about the substantial damage uh evaluator the five-page report that contains many data points that are behind the scenes of what is now a two-page letter going out to homeowners giving them uh either the good news or the bad news about the percent of of damage of their property um interestingly enough uh looking at that and I I made comment to that that that some of the data appears in error and basically what it appears is that we are understating property values overstating the necessary repair values the result being you put that together and the percentage is increased beyond what it commonly would make sense and pushing people over the 50% um interestingly enough the uh FEMA in their publication 213 clearly states that it's the responsibility of the community to review and ensure that the data that's being pulled from the county with regards to market value has been as necessary factored to represent current legitimate property values now can't say that that's being done we don't see anything behind this data but now letters are going out uh to the community and quite a few of them just from contacts and otherwise are substantially over the 50% in properties that literally did not appear to have that level of damage and I think part of the challenge there is where's the data coming from we're making decisions and people's lives are being disrupted based on the data that's coming from somewhere so then even this is such a moving Target now that now the the word is is that FEMA may have determined that the database or software data that were has been used for that evaluator tool may be flawed it may not represent uh the Florida Coastal environment with regards to building type property type Etc I can't substantiate that yet but uh I would be very interested in our team here checking that out because if so that would explain why the understated overstated understated property value overstated repair values that's creating so many uh homes that are substantially damaged in the eyes of the FEMA uh Records so I would encourage the group to take a hard look at that we we can't go back we can go back and I think that's what would have to happen I mean we're 10 weeks in it seems like that would be a doover but I think it would be appropriate if that's where we're headed and that FEMA indeed has better or more appropriate uh software for their evaluator that represents our area that we do that we do that as quickly as we can so that we can stop sending out sdas that are in error and think about it uh just across from my little view on 104 the third home is being torn down yeah third home and then there's one on the other side Bob so it's really four how you know people are making the decision how many are making that decision based on the SDA they got and the fact that they think that it you know it's lost that they're going to have to move on or rebuild or do something we can't let that happen to the whole Community indeed if it is in error that will be a really ugly environment so appreciate your help digging into that thank you very much thank you Mark West [Applause] Evans West Evans Isa Palms I stand before you today the brother of Charles Edward Evans disabled Iraq veteran third infantry division United States Army the son of James Edward Evans disabled veteran Bahrain Saudi Arabia third infantry division United States Army the grandson of Charles Edward Evans Italy World War II United States Army the great grandson of Thomas Edward Evans World War I United States Army yes here I stand a citizen of the greatest country man has ever known fought for and defended by the greatest men that God ever created my feet planted on the soil of the greatest state in the Union wondering what happened to our once great City I'm now begging a bureaucracy to give me permission to live in my own home begging unelected p pushers to give me permission to make repairs to what's rightfully mine is this what we've become just one in two generations removed for men who left school at 15 years old to fight for God and Country now we beg at the feet of faceless bureaucrats for permission to make our lives whole again on October 28th one month after the storms devastated our Island in one month into the bad bad post storm policy our former mayor tucked his tail and finally skipped town on October 29th we welcomed Mayor John doctor unfortunately his immediate call to action was W met with immediate resistance from the city attorney city manager and even its fellow Commissioners Time After Time the mayor has called for permits to be issued and to get people back in their homes only to be met with red tape unnecessary affidavit and double speak and manipulation from the city attorney and city manager any roadblock the city can find they willingly lay it in front of our residents every commissioner staff member I've spoken to about why this keeps happening gives me the same response of but everyone is working so hard the mayor seems to be the only one who keeps asking then why isn't it getting done the only men I see in this building that consistently stand with the residents and tries to get us back in our homes as Mayor John doctor at this point what's going on with everyone else on November 11th Isa Palms turned out overwhelm overwhelmingly in support of Chris Clark to District 2 commissioner the only person to listen to the residents and vote for Chris Clark was mayor John doctor Ard and dicki in a move to block the mayor from doing what the residents wanted you made a motion for an emergency meeting Bob mning you seconded that motion a roadblock was in place no discussion could be had then lo and behold commissioner Deb Toth comes blazing in the chamber like a bad out of hell to finalize a vote a vote against What the residents wanted but not before having the city manager read a nasty letter she pinned against the appointment of Mr Clark and what did we get out of this Diana crille now sits in the chair for district 2 and her first order of business a vote Yes on fil dirt mandate which essentially raises the cost of elevating your home by upwards of $200,000 and who sided with the residents who didn't want the Mandate Mayor John doctor why do I only ever see one man consistently standing up for the residents and trying to do what's right in this building so I ask you Commissioners and I ask you staff as a brother of Edward the son of Edward the grandson of Edward and the great grandson of the Edward who came before him why are you not driven by the ghosts of those who came before you to do the right thing what drives you to gravel at the feet of some local self-appointed kingmaker why are you not driven to be strong to stand up for what's right to stand with your neighbors why are you not driven like the mayor like the residents like those of us who sit before you today to return this island to Greatness thank you thank you Carrie Al that's tough to follow really tough um hi I'm Carrie arbach Treasure Island adopted Beach I'm changing the subject because this is what I do and I don't live on this island and I'm sorry for what everyone's going through it's um very emo uh I'm speaking tonight to three things um a reminder that Treasure Island is the first Beach Community to enforce ordinances already on the books thank you Jennifer um to make personal fireworks illegal on public beaches and properties we're trying to avoid any more debris so if you're thinking of setting off fireworks on New Year's Eve or anytime please do so on your own property the police and fire departments will be out there to kindly remind you of of the laws number two New Year's Day there will be a beach cleanup at Gulf Front Park starting at 8:30 a.m. for those of us who decided to sleep instead of staying up for the Midnight City sponsored fireworks all supplies and parking is free this Saturday Treasure Island adopta Beach is hosting a special cleanup event right across the street here at Community Park from 10: to 12: 10:00 a.m. till noon we'll be gathering with supplied buckets and Pickers gloves to clean up the thousands of pieces of small debris that's left behind after walking through the park it truly feels like a graveyard and in a sense it is this is where your belongings were piled before they were redistributed what's left must be cleaned up so we can transform the park into something even more beautiful than it was keep panella's beautiful Treasure Island adopted Beach and run for the beaches we'll be partnering with the city sust stability and Parks and Rec Recreation departments to help beautify the area our Visions are many some include planting butterfly gardens and other native plants and creating a memorial to honor the resilience of this commun community in the wake of the Hurricanes I know many of you have other priorities and I truly appreciate you making the effort even if you can only spare 10 minutes please come out grab a bucket and a picker if you have your own please bring it also no worry wores about parking the city is not yet charging for parking let's let this time be a time to gather together and do some good thank you so much thank you Ken Chris Clark I'm actually glad I'm Chris Clark District 2 um I'm actually glad I'm two behind West man that was a lot to to follow so um I am here tonight to talk about the fil dirt mandate um I was couldn't make the meetings I was out of town when that was discussed um but I I guess I I think we might have missed some folks and and those are folks that want to lift their homes because I think this really really throws a wrench into those people's plans um I may be wrong and maybe I need to ask this tomorrow night when we can get answers but I think there's a whole bunch of questions around you know what this does to people that want to lift when we mandate this because in looking at this to me it just kind of seems like I thought we were done talking about Elevate TI but this seems like Elevate TI light I mean it's just basically the train modification manual without the look back so I did not realize until I went around talking to neighbors how many people were either already signed a contract to lift their home or or at least gotten a proposal to do it and you know from what I've seen this becomes if this gets mandated it becomes a game Cher for those folks um I personally got a a proposal to have my house lifted it was $472,000 which that's a lot of money but hey if you never have to R getting flooded again you know maybe not but I called those folks back provided the train modification manual for them to look at the quote I got back now is $733,000 to do everything that needs to be done to make my property the way that it needs to be um once it's lifted so I'm not too proud to admit that a couple you know 300 extra thousand do is a lot of money to me and it's probably not something that we're going to to to look at anymore um and to me you have to look at the people that want to lift their homes I mean they're people that probably don't have the funds to to tear their house down and then build a whole new one they just don't have the funds for that or they later in life don't want to take out a big mortgage so I think you know many have signed contracts and I'm trying to look out for the residents I've gone around to as many as I can to say hey you need to understand what's happening talk to the folks you got a quote from and if you also signed a contract you know find out what this is going to do to your cost because you know what I've seen it's going to raise the cost a bunch and maybe what I should do is ask these questions tomorrow night when you guys can answer and get some ANS aners on you know does the entire property have to be lifted does the whole terrain modif you loation manual have to be followed if if you're going to lift or or or or not because from right now it seems like this is basically going to be a game Cher for anyone that wants to lift their home and I think I talked to probably maybe 15 people that had already signed contracts and probably another 30 that had gotten quotes so uh and some of those people are in the room and I think they don't know what to do now because they don't understand how this is going to affect lifting their home and um you know commissioner minning I agree with two things you said when this came up the other night and correct me if I'm misquoting you but the one thing you said was if supposedly 80% of 90% of the people that are going to tear their home down are going to do this anyway then why does it need to be mandated because we're just then locking out the people that want to lift their home right and and the other thing you said was is you know why does it have to be done tomorrow I mean by the time these houses are torn down and and you got the permits ready to build them up I know we could have a simple fi dirt ordinance it's not going to take a year I know we could have a simple field or orance in so I don't understand what the rush is I mean we still can't get permit to put up drywall how are you going to get permits to put build a whole another house I mean by the time it comes around timing should not be an issue and and let me just give you an example of of a real life example of some some neighbors that live four doors down from me me they've lived here forever they can't get permits they just got totally disillusioned they keep getting their contractor keeps they went through two contractors they're like you know Chris we're going to move I'm like why don't you look into lifting your house is like the perfect house for it so they went to go lift get a quote they're all excited about it they find out about the Mandate it just pushed them over the edge they're like we're selling our home so now in two weeks time they basically gave their home away and what's going to happen the person that's moving in was probably someone that couldn't afford to buy the house before but they were giving it away now so they come in they're buying it and they're going to put the house back so now we have a house that could have been lifted by folks that had lived here for a long time that now is going to have someone new move in fix it up and be done and so we gained absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned so every resident I talk to is a g this and I guess it kind of seems like part for the course lately that because the residents are against it the majority of you guys I think in the meeting that one day you know talked like you were going to vote for it so it's it's just sad for people that are actually trying to do what you guys want so thank you thank you [Applause] Chris moving on to commission reports commissioner Crable okay I too when I was out talking to Residents and stuff I I am listening to you matter of fact before Wes spoke before Chris spoke I had a prepared statement for what I had written for tonight on things residents are wanting to elevate and lift houses to become FEMA compliant but the possibility for mandate a fill costing 10 or1 of thousands of dollars to accomplish this is putting great stress on them I told the people that I would ask the commission to defer any more movement on this until we get out of this crisis mode so we can all think clearer what would our repercussions be if we did not make mandatory fill for current buildings to be raised if we mandate Phil for lifting the house we will lose families and elderly by driving them away due to the additional cost I do not want that for anybody and especially if owners are lifting their houses when they're under the FEMA 50% rule which is some of the cases also I know in the workshop I voted for the fill and that had a mandatory requirement but I am listening to you and I when I had my meeting with the city manager I asked him if there was a way that we could possibly work around this so that we can grandfather or something so that we can protect our residents here I I I don't want to put that extra burden on there I want families to be able to stay I don't want our people our elderly people to think that they have to choose between their home or nursing home care later on and stuff so I am listening and I and I'm not saying I made the best vote for because of not thinking so much about people that are trying to elevate existing homes a lot of that was addressed in Prior things in M pnz that was for a lot of new builds and that makes a big difference versus somebody's home that they're actually living in another thing that I had found out um being out in the community was that I had a couple people asked me about laundry facilities and they were questioning why we didn't have laundry facilities on Treasure Island because they still had them in Mad Beach I went to the city manager and I asked about that at our meeting and he said there was very little demand for it and that's why we got rid of them to start out with so I am trying to get answers and I'm not saying that I make every perfect decision on the first time but I am here and I am listening thank you thank you Bob uh well where do I start I guess is the the main question there were a number of comments um this evening that were directed at individuals up here um and the staff as well um I take those to heart and I am in 180 degrees um in disagreement with some of those comments and so um I would ask those folks who made those comments and accusation maybe to do a little fact finding and uh see exactly who voted how and when and for what um second thing is um I would ask the city manager and City attorney right now as the uh commission has opined uh is there a fill mandate um for raising your house and or new construction under the existing ordinances no yeah okay so um if a person wanted to raise their house um today and contracted uh with the house with a company that does that there would be no mandate no requirement for the from the city to bring in Filer to do that correct as the ordinances stand now there is no mandate thank you that's all I had commissioner arton thank you uh I had some uh prepared comments but none were were to address some of these issues but let me go ahead and touch on a couple of them one was we talked about substantially damaged letters uh going out uh those I have U uh volunteered to work with residents who have gotten that uh gotten those letters and when they come in and two on Tuesdays and Thursdays I sat down with them along with some of the other volunteers but specifically I've asked to deal with that and I'm setting and my primary purpose is to help them stay in their home if that's what they want and so I give them advice I give them counsel I let them know everything they possibly can do to get to appeal the substantial damage determination and uh and to stay in their home and as of as of the day as of this afternoon I don't think I've set with anyone who is at risk of Lo of of having to uh abandon their house because of the 50% rule that doesn't mean they're not out there it just mean I haven't spoken with them uh specifically so anyway we are trying the city there's this gross misperception that the city wants people to to be evicted from their house or to leave abandon their house or to sell it at a very heavy discount and leave it so that uh somebody can come in and tear it down and and build a monstrosity that we can get more taxes on that is absolutely ridiculous to even think that way so uh the city is is I'm trying to do everything I can to to help people stay in their homes and that's what I will continue to to try to do uh regarding uh the comment about lift about lifting their homes I have asked also uh well before this meeting I've asked if we could grandfather in uh homes that uh that were destroyed or or hurt during the hurricane and that people wanted to lift their house so that there would be no mandate requirement and I've thrown out a number or not a number but a period of maybe for the next two or three years realizing not everybody wants to make the decisions now uh in terms of whether they're going to lift their house or tear it down but to give them a period of time uh before uh uh uh to allow them to bring Phil in if they want and if they didn't want to they didn't have to so so I think uh I think you I think we're all pretty much in sync with what you guys are suggesting in terms of of applying some uh reasonability and some uh uh logic to to to having a fill policy that's mandated uh even if we go down that path so uh you know I'm not sure how how the uh zoning and planning or the local planning agency was going to going to uh view this when they uh look at it but I am hoping that it comes to us with some kind of provision that allows uh a period of time for people whether it be two years or whatever that that current residents who who want to elevate their houses or tear down and build new ones would be allowed uh to do so and and and to uh act uh uh in a voluntary mode in terms of whether or not they want to bring in fi dirt so those are the two things that I wanted to address on that I do have one other unrelated thing and that's a a more recent problem that uh that we're starting to see now in particular on Sunset Beach but I imagine it's going to be everywhere is I got a call from uh in emails and texts from several from several residents regarding their penelas County Utilities Bill uh specifically they're saying wait a minute I haven't been in my house since September 26th how come I'm getting a $400 a bill for these things and and on that bill as as most of you all know are your sewer charges from the city of Treasure Island your your trash removal uh and there's one other thing on there uh reclaimed water I think oh no that's by pelis county utilities but anyway uh I think we need to as a commission and a city staff to take a look at what we can do for those people who are not in their homes to continue to have to pay for trash removal and other services that they're not getting when they're not living in their homes so if we can take a look at that i' I'd appreciate those are my comments great thank you um as we're uh talking about the Fielder um you know Bob and I are are against Fielder we've been against the Mandate on field dirt I don't care if they called a requirement or a guideline that's required to be filled whatever it is uh we were there but um one of the things we had last week was we had kimley uh kimly horn and uh and I asked the gentleman and it wasn't his his realm but he he said that they could take a look at something um and I asked him also could they uh expedited if that's possible because of the two storms that we've had here could we get it expedited not have it be eight or 12 months and to have it be you know eight weeks um so I'm asking Chuck city manager uh have we done anything any conversation with Kimberly or kimley hall or horn kimley horn um is there anything that uh that they're looking at actively today that because I know that commissioner minning basically said yeah could you do that for us and can you look look this for look it up for us actively no but we're working to find the right contact within kimley horn so that they can take a look at that to see how we could get a fil dirt ordinance to see if there's a way to accelerate for that to happen okay and I understand you know the the the real priority here is permits I we get that but we can you know we can do more than one thing at a time I I assume and and um so okay that's I appreciate that um Brandy you uh you had asked about the town hall and uh who called it and I that the five Commissioners called it so it is the uh the commission's town hall meeting um we will be in the front of the room tomorrow night upstairs and uh um you know so that we're basically like we will be now we're and you're looking at us we're looking at you and we're we're hearing what you're saying so um um yes I the city staff will be here and and everything else so um and there's a lot of good questions that came up from all of you from West and from um Chris and yourself and and tomorrow night a lot of those will be answered and yes I'm hearing a lot of the same things that other people are especially I heard today that the county said they weren't sure and how much confidence they had in the M you know the uh the data that they had um and so uh because we do we got a lot of block houses where uh in New Orleans it was a lot of wood rures and different things so it is night and day so um so but we'll hear a lot of that tomorrow um the assistant uh appraiser uh from for the county is going to be here uh tomorrow as well uh we would have had the appraiser but he's already doing another one but uh his assistant is going to be coming and talking about uh the appraisals and uh what's on their books and everything else they'll be able to answer questions as well um we we do have a couple of uh guests that potentially are coming to speak as well um we've heard from some of the uh the officials that maybe their aids would be able to be here tomorrow night and that's uh Luna um Anna Pina Luna um her Aid was looking at coming possibly and uh same with uh Senator deia uh his Aid may be there and maybe he'll be there as well so um we're going to have the right people I think we're going to have the right answers we're going from 5:30 to 7:30 um but yes this is this is uh this is going to be the commission's uh town hall meeting and which does mean that I plan to engage with you and uh and hear what you're asking and uh and giving answers and uh and everything else so I think that um hopefully that covers most everything on the permits and uh tomorrow night will be a a much uh better time spent uh tomorrow than tonight so okay thank you all right we're moving on to approval of the minutes do we have any minutes no no okay thank you um moving on then to uh Cent agenda uh do I have a motion I don't think we have a anything for the consent agenda there is no yeah oh we've got two items there were two items we're not going to talk about those we're just going to go ahead and vote for we uh well what we do is we uh give a motion yeah uh we get it second and then we have the discussion all right uh regarding the first uh thing on the agenda H1 I move to I'm sorry go ahead I I think it's it's probably easier we can just say you know I I move to uh adopt uh the consent agenda for this evening that sure if you don't if we if we're not going to be doing anything to talking about I'm fine with that I move that we adopt uh both H1 and H2 on tonight's consent agenda great thank you second okay we have a motion we have a second uh do we have any public comment okay hearing none uh do we have any discussion here all good okay so if we do have have the roll call please vice mayor dicki I commissioner minning I commissioner krael I mayor doctor I say majority vote motion carries all right let's uh move on to items of business the uh i1 the second reading and final public hearing of ordinance 20 24-26 ordinance 202 24-26 and ordinance of the city of Treasure Island Florida amending chapter 50 traffic and vehicles of the city of Treasure Island code of ordinances by revising section 50-1 definitions to include definitions of existing violations and of a new violation created by this ordinance and redefining holiday and public parking creating section 50-7 unlawful parking generally to clarify existing parking violations and to create new parking violations revising section 50-14 illegal parking fines to incorporate statutory limitations on parking fines and the violations being created or revised by this ordinance providing for conflict providing for codification providing for an effective date thank you very much are there any changes uh do we have first of all do we have staff uh that's coming up and talking to us because I I do have a couple of questions about uh the financial analysis mayor commissioner mayor Commissioners um my name is Mike Howard I am a consultant uh filling in for uh the on an interim basis for the finance director here at uh Treasure Island happy to um answer any questions you may have about the financials okay the the first thing would be are there any changes from the first reading no okay then the second would be the Analytics we were talking about that we had some of the fines that were like at $80 or $60 coming down to $30 and what did it see how that played in the mix yeah and the punchline to the whole thing is it's about a $25,000 reduction in revenues uh over over a year okay so you know and it's it's statute you know it's it's law anyway but financially it's it's pretty negligible I think okay thank you we've included the analysis within within your package okay all right um any public comment all right hearing none public uh hearing portion is now closed do I have a motion I move to approve ordinance 2024-25 amend amending chapter 50 traffic and vehicles of the city of Treasure Island code of ordinance has presented at the second and final public hearing second discussion for the N commission I I do have a couple of items at the last meeting and I I I think uh Chief Barkley addressed these issues but I was concerned about rolling back the prices of uh parking fines from $80 to $30 for what I thought were some pretty serious parking violations including blocking driveways blocking fire lanes and uh parking on sidewalks and uh I thought having a $30 fine wasn't a significant enough deterrent to keep people from uh from from parking in in front of somebody's driveway or in front of their on their sidewalk on West Golf Boulevard and Sunset Beach uh but the I did ask at that time and the City attorney has provided me the documentation which clearly state from the state which clearly states the city cannot charge uh anything more than $30 for non-moving violation so so uh the reason was given at that time and and I've had I've I thought and got clarification that the state just doesn't allow you to charge that anybody wanted to fight it in court would win they would be thrown out because we were charging more than that having said that you know I'm still concerned about people parking and blocking driveways and parking on the sidewalk out here on Golf Boulevard to go to the beach uh and parking in fire lanes and and the uh Chief did say uh that that he would be uh they they would be Towing Vehicles away that if they were blocking somebody's driveway or or a sidewalk or something like that uh as I understand there's also uh an ordinance that the the State of Florida allows you to ticket somebody every two hours for non-moving violation so you I know you can do that with overtime parking but I think you can do it also with uh these other kind of parking violations so to the extent that you know it's not bad enough to be towed but it still is uh you know is is not uh what the city had had intended when it passed this ordinance I would encourage the chief and the uh the police to exercise that option to ticket the vehicle if they haven't moved you know in a two-hour period uh the other thing and this is more just a side note and this certainly isn't going to affect the way I vote on this or anything but uh backing in the the new ordinance included a fine a violation for backing into a parking space and I noticed when I pulled up uh tonight that there were about half the vehicles including my own that backed into the parking space tonight so that's going to be a difficult transition at best to get people to and I understand why we have it I just know it's going to be going to be a challenge that's all the comments I had about that mayor thank you any other comments why why is it I'm sorry that uh go go ahead go ahead and answer the uh the backing into it is the new uh equipment we have for monitoring uh whether or not somebody paid for parking it identifies their license plate and if somebody's backed into it it would require the parking uh uh enforcer to have to get out at every one of those and check and check a license plate as opposed to just keep driving down and and being more efficient so that's that's why the change in that ordinance all right um finish up on the discussion uh roll call please vice mayor Dicky I commissioner minning I commissioner kille I mayor doctor I majority vote motion carries All Right Moving On first reading of the ordinance 2024 27 amending chapter 68 ordinance 2427 and ordinance of the city of Treasure Island Florida amending chapter 68 zoning regulations of the city of Treasure Island code of ordinances by amending section 68- 460 minimum yard regulations for accessory structures to rename that section minimum yard regulations for accessor structures and accessory equipment and by adding language to recognize the excuse me the elevation requirements for equipment in the current Florida building code and the city's chapter 66 amending section 68- 482 accessory uses generally to add a Tim limited exception to allow docks lifts pools and pool equipment to remain on site without a principal use under specific conditions amending section 68- 512 regul ation to clarify that when non-conforming residential or hotel motel structures are allowed to repair or reconstruct to reflect that either the number of units or square footage that existed on September 19th 1995 or the current density or square footage is allowed whichever is greater adding section 68- 542 relief from setback requirements for existing structures being elevated or new maters on existing structures to be elevated to meet the code and the Florida building code as a minimal encroachment into the setbacks providing for severability providing for conflict providing for codification and providing for an effective date all right uh staff presentation please good evening Commissioners in response to the extreme damage caused to structures in the city in the wake of the three hurricanes in 2024 two of which were major hurricanes uh which damaged uh the major majority of structures in the city of Treasure Island staff has recommended the changes outlined below to enhance the ability to reconstruct or Elevate structures while providing certainty to the applicants as to what our code would be uh this ordinance was reviewed on November 21st by the LPA and was uh the board voted to approve the resolution but there was a problem with the ordinance number so this is coming to you today it's going back to the LPA on Thursday um just so they can vote again make tie this back up with the bow and this will come back to you for a second reading at your first meeting in January uh once we know what that date is um I know tonight you're setting the commission schedule for next year um there there are no changes to the ordinance since the LPA reviewed it in November um and the policy purpose is to align the Land Development rate regulations with the Florida building code and the city flood plan regulations and to provide relief to property owners in the post storm reconstruction environment so there are four sections of the code that uh have been recommended for change uh the first is the minimum yard regulations for accessory structures basically what that deals with is mechanical equipment and in order to be able to elevate mechanical equipment there are going to be some difficulties for the property owners in that typically that was on grade and when you're replacing it now post storm it'll have to be elevated meaning it's either on a stand on the building it's on the roof or it could be on a standalone stand but depending on the house itself or the or the commercial building so in that case this is providing normally that equipment would have to be at least 3 ft from the property line this would provide relief if needed if required only by the Florida building code that it could be closer to the property line uh this next section is accessory uses generally that has to do with docks and pools so normally when somebody is going to demolish a structure and there's a pool or a dock we want to ensure that the pool or dock which are considered accessory uses to the primary use don't remain by themselves so we've had instances in the past where people have left a pool be behind after Di it's become a nuisance it's become a code case ongoing and those kind of things so we wanted to allow people to go ahead and demo if they've got very damag structures without a new permit in yet and yet keep their pool keep their Dock and be able to um assure the surrounding citizenry that is still safe so this basically says you can keep those structures for up to two years um as long as you fence them off and keep them safe and basically that's a Florida building code requirement that pools have to have a child safety fence so we're just extending that to the Waterfront to make sure that it's safe um so that's giving relief to the to the owners of the property in not having to wait to demo to have a rebuild permit first uh the next section is clarifying the language regarding non-conforming structures so we have non-conforming residential and hotel motel density and square footage for structures which are specifically damaged by a natural disaster what that means is say a typical Hotel may have more units today than it would be allowed under the current code this allows that hotel if they rebuild to keep the number of units or the square footage that they had in 1995 I'm not quite sure why 1995 was established as the year um that's when we had a major rewrite of our code and it seems that a lot of changes go back to 1995 but I don't really see that it was different before 95 this provision in our code already exists allowing them to keep the the density and the square footage or for a house to keep say it doesn't meet the setbacks for a residential structure it would be more it wouldn't be the density question it would more likely be the footprint question and so the house may not meet all the setbacks all the way around we have a lot of older structures in the city that don't um but if it was a duplex it would keep its duplex units even though today maybe it could only be a single family so this is a special provision in our code that already exists uh for hotel motel and residential structures so what we're proposing to change there is to say if the current code allowed you more square footage or more height or more units you could use whichever is most favorable to you in combination so that's the purpose of of that section of the ordinance the last section is a new section uh proposed to add um hold on one second lost my page okay for stairs and meter platforms so when we're elevating a house this is a new section 68542 that would would allow you to have your stairs or your meter platform in the setbacks if there's no other option when you're elevating your structure um so that gives a allowable encroachment for those stairs or for that meter platform stair um as minimal as possible to meet the building code but enough to get you into your house um or commercial structure uh the other one is for when you are elevating a structure once again to have that meter platform be in the setbacks so those are the provisions that um staff has outlined in this ordinance any questions no well done I think that this is necessary especially if we want people to raise the the building it almost is you know it goes right with it so all right um any public comment Chris uh evening mayor and Commissioners um I'm Chris Downing uh resident of isop palms and member of the LPA and also the zoning board um I just wanted to make one clarification from um Katherine's uh presentation tonight she mentioned that all mechanical equipment or hbac equipment would have to be raised elev wise if it's being replaced or repaired um as a part of flood damage um I don't believe the interpretation of that is actually correct at this point in the way the city is handling it and I actually have a meeting with Katherine uh this coming Thursday regarding this um but I've done a bit of research on both at the state level and the county level and the way in which the code is the Florida code is set up that there's an existing building code and a residential building code and these play together and I won't get into the complexity of that but there is a statement in the residential code saying that all flood damage HVAC equipment shall be raised to the flood level however um that conflicts with the existing building code that says any kind of repairs anytime someone goes in for a repair permit that the guidelines of that Florida existing building code supersede so the upshot of that is all of us that have excuse me there's a bug up here um the the upshot is that all of us that have single family homes that are one story that are going to be repaired it would fall under that part of the code and it wouldn't be necessary to if as a part of that your HVAC system was damaged and you had to replace it that you would have to then elevate it in many cases above the top of the roof that was going to enter into many more problems not just setback but also just the fact that it'll be less safe than it was before in terms of it being wind wind damaged but also um you know the requirements for that structure and there there's a lot of un unknowns that are going to happen with even with us taking and elevating homes and allowing this platform to go on the side that that's going to have to be properly engineered and not just blindly signed off by the building official to to put up a structure so uh I'm saying all that just I was one small correction but this this issue of elevating HVAC systems when you're repairing for flood damage and you're not substantially damaged the way the code should be interpreted and I think we'll we'll have the city interpret it correctly soon um is that you don't have to make it any less non-conforming than it is currently um I've spoken to the Head Mechanical Code person at the state he agrees with my interpretation P pel County Head mechanical person a guy named Andrew dvo I'm not going to get his last name correct he also Deo Deo thank you uh he is also currently writing a memo to resend what pelis county was originally saying about raising the HVAC systems for non-substantial damaged homes um Pasco County has already done an administrative decision and published it that is allowing homes would that have not been substantially damaged to keep that HVAC system or other mechanical equipment at the level it is today or not to make it any non less conforming they do allow you to raise it if somebody wants to raise it up two feet more power to them but like many of these things that were coming before us we need to make it voluntary and last comment I that's my position on Phil as well to make it voluntary not mandatory thank you thank you Chris all right do we have uh any discussion questions a question um what was just stated was there's a meeting with Katherine um this Thursday and could that result in a change to the ordinance so the ordinance is written as required by the Florida building code right now our building officials interpret a and the notice that was provided by pinelis County to all of the municipalities as well as 10,000 contractors was that this has to be done there is a lot of discussion about it right now about how this code is interpreted we're doing some research right now Chris has provided us with deo's uh contact information we've reached out to him twice with no response but we are working on that this is a big subject all over Florida every building official every County everything but the uh language of the code says replacement of exterior equipment and exterior appliances damaged by flood shall meet the requirement of this section and it says if replaced if replaced as part of a substantial Improvement electrical equipment and components heating ven ation air conditioning and plumbing appliances and plumbing fixtures duct systems and other service equipment shall meet the requirements of this section but as a person who's worked in architecture for many years I can tell you interpreting the building code is very difficult because it's a cyclical argument and so there is many many ways to interpret the code we're trying to make sure that we're interpreting it correctly and that call is that of the building official um and the appeal of the city's decision would go to the pinelis County Construction licensing board which is Who provided the guidance to begin with so this is a complicated question we don't have an answer but it would not change the ordinance because the ordinances says if required by the Florida building code so if not then okay you don't need the the relaxation that's in the zoning code thank you well then I have a question if that's the Florida building code and we're talking about pelis County having another interpretation on it we still have a bit of a conflict going on possibly and I hate for us to have to go forward on something when we have any any major conflict and that sounds like that's a major conflict well this ordinance is allowing zoning to make an exception if building code requires it so whether the building code is interpreted this way or that way this is just allowing a zoning relaxation without a variance I guess is how I would say it it's allowing something to happen if needed okay but when but when we're saying building code and I know I'm splitting hairs but this is where we're what we're kind of coming down Florida versus panales I mean which one are we actually talking Florida or with pelis taking another one we still Fall Out Underneath pelis also so I'm just concerned about okay the the hierarchy and the conflict because I know in the ldrs we have we've had problems because we had conflicting information our our rules and I just don't want to add to it I don't believe this ordinance does that I believe this ordinance is just saying if the building code requires it then you can do this in zoning so it's not affecting this ordinance doesn't affect the building code does that answer the question or that's not no not I see not not exactly Catherine what because of the mechanical person in pelis County saying one thing and he's the one that sent out the information that's the dots that's the dots I'm still trying to connect who at pcclb made this interpretation because we operate in conjunction with the pinelis County Construction licensing board by state law is that correct Jen it's an overlay they're the licensing board for contractors within the county but with regard to our code we we interpret we well the building official interprets the building code for the the city so we're we're trying to do the research get this resolved I can tell you this is a topic that's been sent to the State Board of building officials this is this is not just Treasure Island this is something that's being tried to be clarified Statewide okay so then I guess my question would be if if LPA is going to look at this on Thursday M I'm not sure until we get that clarification there should be much more action on it my concern is that I have many many permits in here from people who want to replace their mechanical and electrical equipment and this was trying to give them a path forward if they want to take it either under either code and otherwise they have no path forward but a variance okay so mayor if I may um Katherine is there a way to word the ordinance so regardless of whichever decision is made that the ordinance would not have to be changed and could come back for a second reading it's already worded that way specifically that says if if the equipment is required to be elevated by the building code or our local flood plane code which also has elevation requirements in specific instances um then this is a zoning accommodation of those codes so it's already written that way it wouldn't change based on this interpretation it wouldn't change the zoning code proposed okay okay thank you makes sense to me all right um no because we're already in discussion with the uh with the commission um so do we have have a motion sure I move to approve ordinance 2024-25 amending chapter 68 and schedule it for second reading and public hearing for the first Commission meeting to be scheduled in January of 2025 second we have a motion and a second uh in the discussion do we have to put that date in now no you have it for the first meeting in January okay and so once you establish your meeting schedule that will dictate what your first meeting is yeah okay and we'll still go through all the proper advertisement that will identify that date and time of that meeting and it will be published in the newspaper as well as on the city's website and the agenda great thank you any other discussion good great roll call please vice mayor dicki I commissioner minning hi commissioner crel I mayor doctor I thank you the majority has it motion carries all right we're going to move on to the the one item that I placed on here which is is I4 and uh as I said excuse me may I'm sorry do you want to do I3 first which is the establishment of the I'm sorry the the calendar okay let's uh let's do that all right item I3 establishment of the 20125 city Commission meeting schedule all right I think that all of us uh have been given a a schedule uh do we have any conflicts I don't have any none here none here there okay then I I think that this uh this works I move to approve the adopted 2025 City commission meeting schedule second we have a motion at second any additional discussion roll call please vice mayor dicki I commissioner minning hi commissioner Kel hi mayor doctor I thank you okay now we will get to item I4 the last of it um and basically what this is It's I put it down here as permitting subsequent to hurricanes um and uh so I'm I'm going to talk a little bit about it and uh and then we'll uh we'll get to some point where we're going to have some discussion but this commission uh and all of us up here we need to have really only one priority doesn't mean we can't do other things and we still you know can't control you know the city and everything else but the priority if there is a priority the number one thing is is getting residents back into their homes and um so the second thing is that uh you know I I've been listening to folks and uh you come in here on a Tuesday and a Thursday and and you know you you get a a lot of discussion going on um so we've received a lot of calls messages about using option to to exp expedite uh permits um there has uh been no commissioner vote uh on either one or item two and I think that that is uh that tends to be maybe a problem uh we we did pass along Direction but we did not have a roll call vote and uh and I this is what I'm trying to establish is to have actually have a roll call vote um that allows us to uh to basically say that we're we're done with number one that's one of the biggest problems that I have everybody says well I when I sit down with folks they're very kind they're very you know polite a lot of volunteers and everything else but they say well no we're using you know two codes we're using both option one and option two um and on November 1st at a special meeting this commission discussed option one versus option two and agreed to proceed with option two um somehow in there it kind of got mixed into the a discussion about uh having one included with item two but that that seems to be the biggest problem that I keep hearing is that you know they're saying oh well no they're telling me what we're doing one and and I I think that what I'm trying to do is basically say um if this commission does the same thing we did on November 1st um that we're basically going to say that we are clearly we are a uh an option to uh City and and be moving forward um by not voting this uh when we had the opportunity as a commission I think that uh that we're delaying things and it all depends on uh and tomorrow night's going to be a big night so uh you know we'll we'll all understand what's going on there but um you know it's been almost 90 days since the hurricanes and 45 days since uh since we had U the vote and uh so I am uh basically saying now uh that it's in the best interest for us to adopt option two for permits uh and to go directly to the staff and have them follow up with option two um and that is basically what um what I have for this evening and so uh I don't know if I would uh how I would proceed from this point other than to say it's this would be more of like a resolution so normally when the commission does a resolution that's something that's prepared in advance because you have certain whereas Clauses where you're making findings with regard to that and then you're directing an action Y um that can certainly be Direction that's given and we can bring it back at the At a next meeting no they like to take a vote tonight okay um the other um item and certainly you can make a motion the other item I just wanted to advise you of and it's not to cause any kind of consternation I'm just I wasn't um I didn't obviously know that you were going to add an item to the agenda and you said in your rules and it does at 4.5 says any commissioner may have an item placed on an agenda at any time consistent with the normal um notice requirements however I did want to also point out in your rules that at 4.6 it says items that are not on the agenda with the consent of the majority of the commission present um you know can it can be considered and acted upon at a regular or special meeting and also again in 4.1 it says the commission shall by consensus indicate whether or not an item is to be placed on the regular meeting agenda and the mayor shall set forth the agenda for the regular and special meeting of the commission with the approval of the majority of the commission when when I look at those three it would seem that just like the city manager can put things on the agenda the City attorney can put things on the agenda and a City Commissioner can put something on the agenda but that when you're in the meeting if you're adding to it and this is historically I believe the way you've done it is you do a a consensus approval to add it so if you want to go forward as you know interpreting it as any commissioner can place it on at any time that's fine my only suggestion would be is that we make this more clear in the rule so there isn't any kind of issue going forward in the future okay I have no problem with that so the issue is that we still could take a vote tonight if the commission desires yes you can take you can have a motion and okay and uh so I actually have a motion that uh so we can go this direction thank you uh before do we have comment or afterwards uh afterwards we do correct it would be a motion and a second you going to say something um go ahead I move to adopt option two for permits and direct staff to follow option two and FEMA guidelines okay we have a motion do we have a second I am going to give you the uh the gavel uh which will take me out of being the uh goes to one of the Commissioners I don't run a meeting it goes to the vice mayor or I was told the City attorney is where it would go I'm not sure what we're doing is I can't I cannot do a motion or I cannot second a motion as long as I have the gavel okay so I'm giving the gel to the City attorney so that I can make the second um [Applause] that's fine but I don't know who advised you of that but we can figure out um how to do it so what normally happens is if you're unable because you want to make the motion to Pride over the meeting it would go to the vice mayor in this case because he made the motion you're looking to second I would give it to the next um commissioner like the next longest standing commissioner so that would actually go to commissioner Manning but I don't I don't run your meetings Okay thank you well you wouldn't actually run the meeting all you do is is basically call out what time it is for discussion and motions to for votes and so forth certainly I just mean I'm I'm not normally the presiding officer but um the next um senior um commissioner would be appropriate to preside over the meeting all right so uh I will second the uh and since now you are running this uh this vote uh we have a motion we have a second any discussion yes I'd like to know exactly what herba them on what option two says thank you because I was not part of this commission at that point when you guys got those put out and I would like to have I want to know exactly what I'm voting for word for word didto and I would just like uh the city manager to help us understand what we might see differently if we vote for this or as opposed to having given the guidance what would happen differently starting tomorrow or Tuesday by by voting uh V voting this I do have a copy of the uh FEMA substantial Improvement substantial damage Desk Reference and in paragraph 7.5 it does say that communities have choices about how to handle making substantial damage determinations when many buildings have been damaged by a significant event so what is referred to as option one or option two if I'm reading this correctly option one they can proactively inspect buildings soon after the event and use available information to estimate repair costs and Market values those data can then be used to develop substantial damage determinations in advance of owners submitting applications with more details under option two they can notify owners of the requirement to get permits and then wait for Property Owners to apply for permits and make substantial damage determinations at that time following their normal permit review procedures so as I read this you have to make substantial damage determinations under option one or option two and so what we're saying here for option two is that you make this you know excuse me tell the owners the requirement to get the permits wait for the permits to be submitted Mak substantial damage determinations at that time after the permit has been applied for following normal permit review procedures so how how is this going to change what we're doing now is my question um if we if we vote of unanimously to support this how how is it going to change what we're doing right now um if I don't recall the exact verbiage that was in the uh the motion but I I think this takes away the ability for people to use option one at all if I'm correct um if I could hear the motion again because here it's if we're saying it's in the best I think it said in the best interest to go to option two is that correct in the motion yeah it says I mve to adopt option two for permits and direct staff to follow option two and FEMA guidelines okay but we had given you that guidance before so you know we were assuming we were going and what's happening is that and you hear it every day and I I'm I'm probably sure that I commissioner Dicky hears it every day that you know that I thought we were doing option two and the folks downstairs are saying well we're using either one or two and I think that item excuse me for option one was for people who weren't sure what they wanted to do so they wanted to get a substantial damage DET no because they had an option for doing one or two if if I could read this they can proactively inspect buildings soon after the event and use available information to estimate repair costs and Market values those data can then be used to develop substantial damage determinations in in advance of owner submitting applications for with more detail well I think the problem would be you know it's when the folks come in to get their permit package now you've got uh a person from the permitting Department that's going to choose for them what's best how how do you do that you know it's oh we're going to use number one on you today well we will use number two and I think that's what the issue is there it's not clean cut it's an option but an option would say you either use one or you use two and if and if you use option two or option one and in this case you're saying go with option two you still have to make a substantial damage determination after the permit is applied for sure so the permit is applied for a substantial damage determination has to be made and then the permit can be issued okay so I would think if you went on that scenario your biggest question would be is how is that substantial D damage determination going to be made mayor I mean because I mean either we're going to do it because of the 50% Rule and what we have for our improvements or is it going by we're waiting for the SD um estimator and all that and information coming down I think I think that's where part of our problem is is is where does making substantial damage determinations that's the biggest part of that how what is our process for that what's our mechanism for for doing that what would uh I don't know what the uh the process that's what I I'm trying to determine as well how do you use one and two director young can could you step up to the podium please if you could see currently what we have is we are getting information from the state who had done the inspections across the island because the entire island is in the special flood Hazard area M so every structure within this island is within the special flood Hazard area and requires and required an inspection after the storm so what we had done is the state had contracted with a company called Tidal Basin to perform those inspections that information was provided from the state to individuals who were housed in the county who collected the data and provided the data to municipalities and we were one of 15 municipalities that were what that had contracted or worked through the state in order to get that information that information is then taken and put into what is called a substantial damage estimator which is a FEMA tool when you input the data values which tells you the percent or the threshold where you fall in relation to the F the FEMA 50% rule above or below the 50% and that is your substantial damage determinator or excuse me determination so what happens is we get that information from the state it's provided to us we manipulate it and then put it into the substantial damage estimator and and I say and I say manipulated because the data is not coming across clearly we're having issues with the data from the state and so what we do is we get we get the data and and they don't have all the fields always filled out so we have to go back and make and quality assure and quality check it so what happens is we take that and put that into the substantial damage estimation tool and that produces the substantial damage estimation threshold which we should have never had it now if we didn't have that information what we could do is use available information to come up and determine locally what that substantial damage estimation is and what we would do is there was initial damage assess ments that were completed when the island was opened back up before residents were allowed to come back to the islands so there was there was individuals who went out and who filmed and did initial damage assessments and those were members from Community Development we also have copies of other available information such as insurance reports that are provided from FEMA and from the state claims that have been submitted and also a documentation that could be provided from an individual pictures and such and then that information is used to come up with your substantial damage determination so there's kind of two options to do it yeah one using Title Basin and that company and the second to do a local determination the local determination is a more cumbersome process doesn't mean it can't be done but it does take longer to do because we don't get we don't get the information that could be provided to us from the people who were do doing the inspections when they initially came back on the island okay but that that really goes back to when when we got hit with lean and then uh mil as well that there wasn't an option to the commission to to say what we were going to do you had you had either one or two and it was chosen to be one because that's the direction that everything was going and then finally it picked up on that there is another option and that's what it is it's options one or two um and and I think that it's it really I don't know if it reads the way but it's an or not an and and uh and that that's really the issue so we used the First Choice until it it became the the noise got loud enough in the community that basically says two is a better option and so but now what we're doing is we're saying well we'll use either one one or two all right and mayor if I could after it says that piece in paragraph 7.5 it says the first option offers a number of benefits that should make it easier for a substantial Improvement substantial damage requirement one benefit is to Property Owners with information about the requirement to bring buildings into compliance before they get very far along with their plans to repair another benefit is that owners that have Federal flood insurance policies will more quickly receive the community substantial damage determination that they need in order to submit a claim for ICC coverage to their adjuster the second option May pose more of a challenge to the community because many people begin repairs without getting permits in addition by the time owners apply for permits they may have hired design professionals to develop plans for repairs and improvements that do not take into consideration the requirement to bring substan Improvement substantial damage buildings into compliance let me try to simplify this a little bit if we unanimously which we did before uh uh gave guidance to the city to go with option two FEA guideline if we vote unanimously now that is this going to expedite the number of permits we can put out each week I would I would defer to commissioner yunan but I would I would think it would not because regardless you have you have to have a substantial damage determination done before I'm that's okay please and and I think that's where some of the misunderstanding is is because if if you went in and you requested us and Katherine please correct me if I'm wrong if you came in and requested a substantial Improvement on a house within the special flood Hazzard area there is still a determination made for substantial Improvement in relation to the 50% rule with FEMA please hold on hold on okay please which is part of the normal permit processing procedures so under substantial damage you're doing the same thing because you're doing a substantial damage determination to see where you fall in line with the 50% threshold that FEMA has right so in either one in normal permit processing procedures you are using this substantial damage estimation in relation to the 50% whether it's substantial Improvement or substantial damage would it make the permits go any quicker I would again defer to director yunan but no I don't think it doesn't accelerate and you're not going to issue a permit before the determination is done okay would you agree with that K I would agree and one thing I'd like to make clear is that the direction from from the uh commission meeting on 111 was continue with option one that has been going on for those who wish to follow that path and for people who have submitted permits to use option two to have a substantial damage determination without an inspection period so as staff had been doing from day one we were doing both and we've always been doing both that was the instructions from the commission and we never made a determination to do one or the other we were doing both we've been accepting permits from the day we opened under the building when there was no power no water and no sewer in the building so and mayor I'd like to just add on I'm I'm quoting out a FEMA here from their um their packet but also Within Chapter 66 of our ordinance and our flood plane regulation requires the substantial damage determination to be done so it it it is not just the FEMA guidance that that does it when this when this came up was also the time we were meeting with representatives from the state and the Florida Department of Emergency Management and we had been in contact with other communities who had experienced past storms and their recommendations were in line with what we were doing this this wasn't to just nobody on this staff wants to slow down getting people back into their homes I agree with that and and nobody wants to hold up anybody being able to get a permit you know we process about 1,650 permits a year on a normal basis we've probably gotten 12 to 1300 within the last two and a half months you know it it it is a bandwidth thing to try and get the permits issued as quickly as possible but there is no hold up whatsoever in you know trying to slow any of this stuff down but the substantial damage determination needs to be accomplished whether you go with option one or option two it does not mean if you go with option two that you can just issue a permit without that determination being done that's the issue that's Katherine did I miss anything um do you want the citations from our local regulations from our flood plane Rags that say we must do a substantial damage determination no that was my understanding along that we've that we've had to do a substantial determination either under option one or option two so that that really doesn't change anything and that's why I really asked the question if if if uh voting for this which I'm perfectly fine voting for it is it going to change anything is it going to help us issue permits quicker and what I'm hearing from the city manager and Katherine is it it's not going to expedite permits whether we either either way we can do it either way but I can tell you that not continuing the option one is going going to push the people who have not applied for a permit are not going to get we're going to push the permits in front of the substantial damage letters you were supposed to be doing any no no continue with both was the instructions from the commission so right now we are I I'll be happy to explain if we get the the data from the county that we can fill in the substantial damage estimator tools we go ahead and run those and send those out because people want those people ask every day where's their letter so I don't know of we're we're doing that as well we're reviewing permits every day and we're reviewing them and when we get to a permit that doesn't have that determination that's already come in then we go ahead and do that determination manually but it does take more time to do a manual determination because we've got to look at the all the data that we have that's the requirement of FEMA you use all available data and we have a lot of available data we have photos we have water lines we have surveyed watermarks in the city we have flood insurance claims we have all kinds of data that we have to look at to make sure that the work in the permit matches this if I see this the work in the permit has to match that so let me let me ask a question when we are looking at uh the letters going out yes and I received my letter and it says that uh that I'm at 22% yes at that point why wouldn't we be able to issue the permits within days so that is what's actually happening we have two reviews we have two sets of reviews let me clarify that we have have a substantial damage review sitting over here then over here we have building flood plane zoning fire whoever else needs to look at a permit so these reviews are going on while this review is going on so when this review gets released from substantial damage I.E you're not damaged that permit over here says oh that step is done let's push this permit up to the front of the queue because that's already done it's one less thing that needs to be done with that permit but at the same time we're doing first in first out for this stack of permits and doing the determinate it goes backwards and we do this determination when we get to this permit so we're doing both okay so did I answer the question of faster or quicker well it would it would it would be reasonable to say Okay I I get 22% uh says that okay let's round up everything and let's send them back out I mean what else what risk do we have in doing so so we still do a flood plane review make sure all the work is in the permit we make sure the permit is complete we uh it quite often needs a building review and a zoning review depending on what it is um and those reviews have to be done so they're being done we're working on this stack and we're working on this stack so whatever comes up first that's what we do okay but but to answer your question like if it's 22% and we've got the estimator tool ran 22% and the permits showing 22% that's a good match right we say oh this matches up that flood plane number is not a problem but the number of permits that are moving out each week are tending to be kind of a stale number we would assume that with all the new letters that have gone out and all the data that's gone out that we'd be moving a lot of those from one stack to the other so yes that is what we're doing because the data is finally starting to come it's finally starting to roll in like we issued 969 letters as of Monday morning so yes we've gotten substantially more info in the last three or four days okay we got a lot on Friday and I think it was Wednesday last week but as we said we've got to run this through a tool correct first we have to check it I mean we literally see bad info okay and we have to check it all let's move on then to public comment so um I've got a few cards but uh as long as we can get through everybody I'm fine come on up and give us your information on where uh which district you're in thank you mayor doctor I'm in the uh Second District I aisle of Palms on First Street my name is Joseph C trone um and I I my specialty is not zoning and pering but I am an attorney and I have read the statutes and I have read the law and my interpretation is completely different and I think corresponds with pretty much everybody else's here here is that choosing option two allows a permit to be issued under the normal procedure which would be in place had there not been a disaster now that permit can be issued without any substantial damage determination that does not relinquish the requirement that there is a substantial damage determination it just does not they don't coincide they don't need to be run along together that substantial damage determination can be done later so all the time time that is being spent doing it putting in manually when we've chosen option two is a waste of time when people could be back in their homes me personally I I want to be I I got I got a foot of of water in my house I could have my house back together in in two days but we're we're we're back we're we're three months now additionally I'm one of the people that I thank you Miss kraal for your your comments today I I'm one of the people that emailed you in response to raising my home I want to raise my home home but first we need to get to this step so even if if I get even if I am if they do deem that I'm more than 50% uh damaged I still want to raise my home so it doesn't even matter to me to where it is and I think there's a lot of people in that in that position as well so all the more reason why we should not we should be interpreting this properly which is option two normal permitting procedures as if there as it would be any other day you there's no substantial damage you if if the number if the if the repairs are under 50% the permit should be approved then you can continue with waiting for whatever way you want to do the substantial damage determination thank you thank [Applause] you West West Evans is La Palms uh something I see happening is the same thing that happened I believe November 1st when the commission said they wanted option two at the end the attorney the city manager Twisted it on you guys and said okay we'll go with that but you guys mean we want option one running in the background right and everyone just kind of went along with it because you guys are nice guys you just went along with it I'll say right now Diana krael you should have been reading up on this already uh it shouldn't even have to be explained to you the difference between option one and option two option one you get a substantial damage assessment that is different than a substantial damage determination that substantial damage assessment is used to make your determination in option two you get a substantial damage determination the way you get that determination is by looking at the permit and going this your house is worth $100,000 your repairs add up to $30,000 that determination right there shows that you're only 30% that is the determination everyone keeps confusing sub substantial substantial damage assessment with determination the determination is made through normal permit process when it comes to option two I don't know why you guys keep sitting up here when they say they want option two and you keep trying to talk them out of it what is going on answer I it's it's crazy option two vote Yes on option two the same way you always Grant permits is the way you do it under option two yes there is the threat of FEMA coming in and saying hey you uh you we're going to audit you but we get audited by FEMA every year if there's a permit that looks like it's being you know Flim Flam going on on it you set it to the side and that's the one you look deeper into but if there's a $300,000 value on a house and you know look you guys know our houses weren't substantially damaged we need drywall in them they're not knocked off their Foundation if there's a house knocked off its foundation then yeah now you need to look into it closer we just need our drywall all right option to vote Yes on it let's get in our [Applause] homes Chris Clark yeah I guess I'm just going to Second a little bit what um Wes said but you know I'm just going to use real numbers for example I use my own home um my 50% number is 300,000 um um I have a reputable local contractor uh Ken Fritz by the way he told me I should say his name next time so uh he does good work um but anyhow he came in looked at my home uh said it was going to cost $131,000 to fix so I turned that permit in on October 31st all that had to be done under option two was look at that okay does this 131 seem like it adds up and if it does then I'm way under the 50% boom you could that was your substantial damage determination right there and you could have issued a permit you know now let's say he came back and said it was going to cost $4 to fix my house you guys would have said man that something's fishy going on here we're going to throw this one aside and wait and that's as simple as it is we're doing option one because we want to cover ourselves with FEMA for fear that you know our insurance might go up $15 next year it's all a smoke screen you know and it and it really is and it's it's just that is why you have such people that are so upset I mean it's your normal permitting process and you know what if I said it was going to cost $4 you throw it aside you come back you argue with me you don't issue the permit because yeah you're going to get audit but if you do your best to look and say yeah that makes sense $131,000 to fix it and you stamp the permit you're not going to get audited and get in trouble with FEMA that is all just gobbly G so I mean and what I don't understand is you guys were all for it you all voted for it and now that the rubber really and and we you all know that they we didn't do it everyone knows now everyone back there knows you all know we never did option two we did option one and so now when the rubber Meats the road now there's questions about whether we're going to we're going to vote Yes for it and that is why you have all these people so upset just just so you know because it seems it it just it seems under underhanded really a bit so now you know why people are upset thank you very much Andrew [Applause] basley good evening Commissioners um mayor doctor thanks for bringing this up August 1st option two I I I just don't understand why there 's even this much confusion option two as the lawyer said as Wes said as Chris said it's a math problem you take the cost of repair you divide it by the assessment whether you use Twitty's assessment or you got went and got a private one that produces a percentage that gives you your substantial damage determination so Mr Dicky you asked what would the difference be the difference is we're not waiting for a letter that comes in that if we accept option one pushes us us into some sort of undetermined appeals process because I got I got a onepage letter telling me I'm 65% damaged I don't get the backup to it I'm in option one now I got to appeal it I option two lets me take the letter and throw it in the trash I can come in with a permit normal process you guys do this every year because our homes are in flood zones so we always have to do determination when you talk about a substantial Improvement not in a storm event we also have to be under that secondly we brought you Jacobs to enhance the ability of the permit department to turn out permits so you take option two we've talked about this before this is turning into like groundhog day where we we talked about the red yellow green light Jacobs they can do math trust me I've worked with them before they can divide one number by another and produce a percentage we should be able to turn those out the fact that we're being told it will take longer to do the normal uh permitting process then we're waiting on letters with bad information that we have to then be forced into an some unstructured appeals process makes no sense you all did the right thing on November first where you wanted option two we we went through all of these which was how we got you there and then there was this discussion about we want to vote on it well we don't really you don't really need to vote on it you can just give some direction and at the very end of the meeting as some of you know some statement was read that was dragged up just a little while ago okay you're the Commissioners you're elected you run the government please vote for option two tonight and please instruct the staff to follow auction option two and please do not accept that this will take longer get Jacobs to put more people in if you have to clear the people out of the way that are holding this up the simple permits should be should have been out the door already the ones that are within 30 40% take a closer look and as we've suggested before and ardan you're doing the right thing by working with the people who are coming in over 50% did they get an unscrupulous contractor who gave them a very high number and that's pushing their number up are they are they too low on their appraisal can you get that up that's also the right thing to do but under option two we should be have doing this already and this idea that we might get kicked out or we if we did this our rate might go up again Scare Tactics that have been laid on here there's no empirical data no one has come into you and said Commissioners here's the 17 cities that got kicked out of nfip because they went and didn't do option one option two is available I've spoken to state senator Nick um deigle I've talked Luna's office they're willing to come in tomorrow you guys are doing the right thing by doing this you did the right thing 45 days ago let's codify it let's get do it for the right reason which is to get permits out the door get people back in their homes you you had the right idea and that's what we're looking for tonight would and I appreciate your support on that thank you very much thank you Sarah I'm so glad that you brought this up tonight John doctor because this has been really the boiling point I think for all of the citizens of Treasure Island is this option one option two and I'm I'm thankful that we're revisiting it option two is one sentence one sentence only and I can paraphrase it by saying that you make the substantial damage determination using the normal permitting process that's it it is not any more complicated than that so I don't know why it is being made more complicated than that I even I'm a stickler for accuracy I actually even went to a FEMA meeting and asked the person from FEMA Chuck was there does option two require a substantial damage assessment meaning those inspections and the FEMA person said no it does not require a substantial damage assessment I even videoed it because I wanted to know for myself and I I I I just I can't even comprehend how we're still having this conversation when I thought we should all be on the same page it's only one sentence think back like um idelia or whatever storm it was a couple years ago we had a few neighbors that their homes flooded did they have to wait for a substantial damage assessment to be done no they didn't they got their permits by submitting their permits like normal and a substantial damage determination was made at that time and that's what we are supposed to be doing with option two I don't know why it's been made this complicated it's very clear if any of you want to see the video from the person from the horse's mouth at FEMA saying that it is not required with option two um I'm happy to share that with you and I also want to point out at that November 1 meeting I actually did go up and speak to miss Cowan and I said um since we just all decided on option two shouldn't it be stop the presses call off the substantial damage assessments why are we I heard you say at the end oh we're going to keep that running in the background and I thought why we just voted on option two which means we don't need substantial damage assessments and I specifically asked about that but I just kind of got around about I'm sorry I don't like calling people out but I did I got around about answer that was a non-answer and the reality is is that with option two we absolutely do not need substantial damage assessments and I'm glad you brought it up tonight because I think we need to settle this once and for all thank you [Applause] Mark H thank you I know it's my second time up here and I didn't know I needed to fill a card out um aside from all the other discourse earlier this evening I mentioned to you uh the concerns with the data and even Katherine uh thanks to her mentioned that as well that there there concerns about the data that's being given to us by Third parties and I think it just makes good sense that we would trust legitimate licensed contractors to make a honest bid on the job that needs to be done to rebuild somebody's house and then an honest legitimate appraisal of that property to be used to do the simple math problem to determine whether it's substantially damaged or not rather than waiting for some unknown multiple tentacle thirdparty data that comes in here that says the property is worth this and here's how much we think it's going to cost to fix it and telling us what that end result is it that's what we have and I think you're going to find and I think you'll acknowledge that we're going to find the data is bad and we've lost 10 weeks of time waiting for that data and if it gets covered up it's going to be the greatest tragedy instead of acknowledging that we've gotten bad data and it's put a lot of people at risk rather than following a common sense approach and holding to the rules we already have in place so think about it option two okay we'll call public uh comments uh closed um yes I have a question to um Katherine and to Chuck um from the discussion that you've heard so far this evening uh is there a reasonable conclusion that substantial determinations are not needed at this time assessments yeah no determinations assessments as in inspections is that is that well the inspections are part of the determination correct so a determination um letter is sent out that your property is or is not substantially damaged and it's based on the assessment what I'm saying is if we're saying we can go ahead and issue a permit um based on no substantial damage determination letter being issued and that that would come in the future sometime is that a valid assessment is that a valid approach so we option two clearly states we make the substantial damage determination at that time so that letter would go with the permit do you need the letter that's my want the you don't need to look at it but it we have to make a determination as a city based on our code and based on FEMA guidance before any um per at the time of Permitting at the time before any permit is issued yes that's the issue is so it you have I'm hearing from folks is that a substantial damage determination is not needed is what what I'm hearing from the the folks that you can go ahead and issue a permit without a substantial damage determination that could be done two weeks from now it says make a substantial damage determination at that time in the FEMA Desk Reference also our code says that when we review a permit compare the cost to perform the Improvement the cost to repair a damaged building to its pre-damaged condition or the combined cost of improvements and repairs if applicable to the market value of the building or structure determine and document whether the proposed work cons constitutes substantial Improvement or repair of substantial damage so the city has to make that determination before a permit is issued that's really what we're we're talking about it and I'm sorry I misspoke on your question of whether they need the letter we must notify the applicant if it is determine that the work constitutes substantial Improvement or repair of substantial damage okay now in the normal process of issuing a permit um anybody here comes in yes goes to your office apply IES for permit you all do a review uh and part of that review is are you in compliant with a 50% rule okay is that like a substantial damage determination that's a yes that's a substantial Improvement calculation that we normally do on a daily basis but what the difference is here is we have to make sure that it's not substantially damaged because we are in a post hurricane status where we still need to make that determination whether it's over or under 50% based on the permit and all available documentation okay but you you have to do that anyhow in the normal process yes we do yes we could well see a substantial Improvement application and we see them where the value is 60,000 and they only have 100,000 we have to say no okay um but why why a substantial Improvement is different than an is substantial damage in one critical way a substantial Improvement is you choose to make an improvement to your house substantial damage has to account for all cost to return the building to pre-damage condition well why don't I just not do that and why don't I just come in and apply for a remodel we have to assure that you've returned your building to pre-damaged addition with the money with your 50% money so if you came in for a remodel and we knew you had substantial damage we're going to have to make sure that permit includes the work for subst to return the building to pre-damage condition and and why does an owner have to return the building to pre- damage condition if the owner applies for a permit the must return the building to pre-damaged condition what is that a in the code where does that come into play please so compare the cost to perform the Improvement the cost to repair a damaged building to its pre-damaged condition or the combined cost of improvements and repairs if applicable to the market value of the structure okay is that in our code yes that's straight out of our code that's section 66-13 point4 okay thank you had John you're actually the uh the mayor now in that case I seconded it this meeting is closed everybody go home well we just have to vote and then we can close out the meeting um is there any other um comments Chuck Jennifer Katherine I think we've hit on what the issues are I'm not sure we've resolved them um further discuss call yeah that's no no further discussion okay do we have a motion yeah we already had second oh you second that's right okay roll call please vice mayor Dicky hi mayor doctor hi commissioner Kel hi commissioner minning [Applause] hi we're going to uh have a workshop here in uh let's call it uh 8:15 we are now [Applause] adjourned e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e and welcome to the commission's workshop on December 17th 2024 like to call this meeting to order the first item of business is the City attorney and city manager reports um I don't have anything to report other than to wish you all uh very happy holidays Merry Christmas and I um do have at the end of this um I have a small presentation it's just from an educational informative standpoint on procurement process just so that you know with some of these projects what will be involved in that process overall from a timing standpoint and who the players are and things like that great thank you Chuck thank you mayor so just a couple items if I could please first would be the notice of a public workshop and hearing the Board of Trustees of the internal Improvement trust fund of the State of Florida is proposing the reestablishment of a portion of an erosion control line in Treasure Island they will hold a public workshop and a public hearing immediately following the workshop at City Hall on Wednesday January 22nd from 6: to 8 for the purpose of considering evidence bearing on the location of the proposed erosion control Line This erosion control line location is necessary for the beach erosion control project known as pelis County Shore protection project Treasure Island segment and that would be a proposal that pelis county has with the Army Corps of engineer of excuse me Engineers to be able to do a beach renourishment project so this is the erosion control portion and they're seeking feedback at the workshop can I add one thing to that just to be clear so that'll be um the proposed line that they're talking about um would be out from basically um the uh parking lot right here in front of you down Sunset so just for the individuals in case they were wondering where this is pertaining to okay great thank you thank you J um city of Treasure Island offices will be closed to the public in observance of the Christmas holiday on Tuesday December 24th and Wednesday December 25th offices will also be closed for the New Year's holiday on Wednesday January 1st for tomorrow's Town Hall as mentioned earlier we extended an invitation to the penelas County property appraiser and the deputy for appraisals Kevin Hayes is available to attend we are working to 100% confirm his attendance we have not heard back but we had been told that he would be in attendance great thank you sure um last thing if I could Community Development had released a two-page condo multi-tenant substantial damage memo to the community yesterday and posted it on our website this will provide guidance for multi-tenant and multistructure properties within the city to help those entities work through how to calculate substantial damage and what to submit with their applications that concludes my report thank you very much all right so we have um one item tonight and it is uh for consideration and discussion and uh Chuck are you gonna lead it off lead us off yes I will all right than you so a few months ago mayor um and Commissioners what I took a look at after coming into the job was the amount of projects and work product that the city was involved in and responsible for what had been provided previously to the commission was a a large spreadsheet that um is very similar to this one which listed all the items from my project and product work um workflow that the city had been involved in um dealing with construction and non-construction items so looking at that and talking to the Commissioners individually you know one of the things that I was told during my hiring process was that the city has a number of projects that they're involved in but you know for one reason or or another there wasn't clear guidance or the ability to move out and to work and complete necessary items that needed to be done uh for the city's infrastructure as I met with the Commissioners I provided a copy of this work sheet to them and asked them to prioritize their top five items and what we come up with if you look up at the board tonight is by commissioner their top number one through number five items so if I looked at commissioner mins up there on the board MPS stands for the master Pump Station and Public Works facility construction that would have been commissioner mining's number one priority and that was worth Five Points so each one of the Commissioners and the mayor was asked to please give their top five items that they wanted this city to focus on in the coming year if you go down to the totals down at the bottom you can see the five items that came in with the highest scores were the master Pump Station Public Works facility conr ruction then the public safety facility sea walls Dune walkovers and a Treasure Bay overhaul now what a Treasure Bay overhaul is is that there's a number of items that are on the spreadsheet having to do with the Treasure Bay building ADA compliance um functionality of the location including the tennis courts so there were two commissioner or excuse me one commissioner and the mayor that wanted some work done out of TR Treasure Bay and under mayor doctor he had Treasure Bay tennis courts and commissioner Toth had Treasure Bay overhaul so that brought them in at Four Points so the top five items there that the city will be focusing on are those top five items that doesn't mean that we're going to stop doing any other work nor are we going to not take advantage when the advantage is there of smaller scale projects you know I know the mayor had mentioned that we should take a look at all the projects that we have projected that could cost approximately $30,000 or less on the smaller scale projects we still intend to do those projects but not to be the main focus and that's what we were looking to try to drive to is to find the commission direction for the top five items that the commission wanted the city staff to focus on in the coming year and that also doesn't mean we're not going to do other things that arise you know for example a beach re nourishment is not something that you say no to it's not listed on here but that is something something that just will have to be done so what I would like to do is just if there needs to be discussion or if there's any questions related to any of this to have that discussion um have the commission's you know understanding and acknowledgement of the F top five projects and on a quarterly basis we will be working if not more to bring you and keep you up to speed on the steps that are taken in each one of the projects to get them moving along primarily they're all construction related you know so there will be a procurement piece and you know a design phase RFP rfqs Etc so if you have any questions you know i' be more than happy to answer them um on the uh Public Safety facility reconstruction um what's the concept concept um would be at a you know commission Direction I mean if if we wanted to have a public safety joint police and fire um facility infrastructure then we could do that if there want if there was a desire to have something separate but it would be construction because of the Hurricanes demolishing the buildings the police department and the fire department and the Public Works facility you know we need to make sure that we can get that infrastructure back in place for example we're paying approximately I think it's $45,000 a month to temp arily house our fire and police Administration and our firefighters who are on call 247365 in those facilities so being able to work with uh to get this public safety facility built is definitely a priority so what's the next step in this process next step in the process depends upon the project and what I want to do is bring back the next steps for each one for the public safety facility um reconstruction you know we have to go out and to being that the building was destroyed there was a budget that was originally set and I don't know what year this was in for approximately $8 million but we do have to go out and work through the RFP RFQ process to start with the design because we don't have a design we had a concept that was provided a number of years ago for that facility uh and where would that facility be located that would be up to the commission I can pick a spot but you know if you want to leave it to me no I I think there's pros and cons uh the previous commission from what I understand had looked at having the facility adjoining the city hall facility here but there's also been discussion about having a joint uh Public Safety facility over at the their existing location over on 108th Street so yeah I think that's something that I can bring back to a workshop you know so maybe there's a little bit more time if the commission would desire that and then we could have a have it discussed at a workshop where we would want to have the or where the commission would like to have the facility placed or we could come back with some options and some pros and cons for that those locations I would think come back with some options and have a workshop and have the pros and cons on yeah on Multi on all locations considered got it Chuck on a on a related subject my uh my fifth Choice up there not fifth choice but fifth priority was parking lots but I really and that wasn't even on this document that you gave us what what uh what I really picked up on was the the on the first page of the document you gave us was Heron lot reconstruction that's one parking lot and it's for those of you that don't know it's the southernmost parking lot on on the Treasure Island uh but I I turned that uh that particular project around and said we need to focus on getting all of our beach parking lots uh uh refurbished uh uh and and reconstructed so that they can be open to the public and so that we can start getting parking Revenue again 10% of our revenue for next year uh in our or current year rather is a parking lot revenue and Beach parking lot Revenue specifically so uh not making that a priority you know it it concerns me because we have so much revenue following not to mention it's our it's our other than our people it's our biggest asset that we have in Treasure Island is our beaches and uh and we need to get those functioning you know properly uh so that people can park there and so that we can get the revenue that comes along with that yeah yes commissioner you did put down the the hering parking lot and I looked at when you gave me the input there you know I took a look at it it seems it's very similar to seaw walls you know you can say seaw walls but you know there's a prioritization that we need to look at when we take care of doing the seaw walls and there's more than one and there's more than one parking lot that we need to take care of also but I understand the prioritization with the Heron parking lot first you know and working to you know we've got the Gul front one across the street here and making sure those are functioning and up and operating okay I was pleased to see the consistency with uh the Commission in terms of their priorities I mean every everyone of us picked uh the public safety facility as a second option and and uh we're almost all unanimous on the uh Master Pump Station as well as the Public Works facility so I was glad to see that consistency because certainly because of the storms uh those two uh were probably high on the list already but but now it's you know we we have to do do uh we have to have some action there as soon as possible correct commissioner the only thing I would add I would have had this out sooner but there was one commissioner who sat on their list until the very last minute I don't know why they did that I think it was just to to make me sweat because I wouldn't get it in in time for the uh for the meting meeting this evening oh dear all right so if if there's no further questions from the commission on the top five projects CH can I just ask a clarifying Point um where it says ldr Phase 1 2 interim I understand the phase two and interum would be um something that would could be done whenever but just the the LD with regard to the phase one that is a a deadline that's driven by Statute correct it needs to be completed by uh July of 20125 yes correct so so yeah I know it um ranked lower but that is something that the city is going to have to move forward with just because of the statutory time frames I just want to make sure that we were all on the same page and okay and I and I think that's one of the items that although it's not in the top five it's just something that has to be done you know there's an outside driver in there and that's a state statute so we're going to make sure we meet that and that's and Kim Ley Horn's presentation was the opening and introduction on that at the last meeting so what we'll do now is we go back and what we need to do is um we'll come back and have a workshop for the public safety facility but at the same time we're also going to um get a current status of where we are with each one of the top five projects you know because I know for I think it was the uh Master Pump Station and the public works construction I think there was a 30% design that had already been completed you know and I want to make sure that you know the commission has the most informed information that they can when we have these discussions to make the smartest decisions whether it's coming from a cost or a sizing or a scoping or a phasing perspective okay okay thank you and what what we're going to move to here next would be U what Jen F had talked to was uh having to talk procurement okay so while they get that loaded this isn't meant to be an allinclusive procurement presentation um it's I don't know 10 slides maybe you know eight slides um but it's more just to give kind of a generic overview of this so a lot of times um particularly for some of our newer Commissioners who maybe haven't um had as much exposure to public procurement private procurement can be very different than public procurement public procurement is highly regulated as you would expect because you are the stewards of the Public's funds so um the other thing I wanted to let you know is that there are many many laws on procurement and they are um it's highly regulated and also almost every single year it changes um in the last few years the legislature has been and I think you all may know this because you've probably seen my legislative update memos that are I think now at like 50 pages um last year there were over a hundred laws that that changed that affected local government I'm sorry the year before um and then last year was 94 different laws that affected local government so procurement is just one aspect of that but it is constantly changing and then last obviously it's a little more complicated because public policy is that it favors competition hoping that in some aspects you get the most qualified person and in other aspects you get the the cheapest yes um so let me go through uh mainly it isn't I don't you ever think that if you put out a bid or something and you have um only one person apply that you can't accept that bid but it's more governing that when you go out for bid or RFP or RF Q or any of that that you're trying to solicit that competitive uh you're trying to solicit competition whether or not they choose to come in um that's nothing you can control so you certainly can award if there's only one bidder but again often times we go out to try to prevent favoritism and and encourage competition um so here are some of the legal considerations that we look at with regard to uh procurement first of all are there are constitutional prohibitions so where do you get your power from are you procuring this for a public purpose there are lending credit prohibitions which you know means you can't lend the city's credit to a private entity um and then of course there are Sunshine Law and public records law implications as well as there are numerous statutory um impacts um generally uh with federal law uh there are the procurement gets a little more complicated because if there's Federal money involved um the feds require that we incorporate all of their Provisions um with regard to those procurements so it can um substantially lengthen your contract it can also affect uh the cost of that contract um because from the contractor's perspective that's additional laws they have to be complying with and additional liability that they're taking on then with regard to the state um I said 40 plus laws and that's just a rough guess um but whether you're dealing with um public construction bonding requirements there are certain there's different procurement requirements we'll go through it a little bit with regard to engineering um versus construction there's also specific sometimes Provisions depending on what service you're getting so for instance when you wanted to get new Auditors that's a completely different process than you normally go through and it's statutorily driven so there are just some unique processes in there too um and then of course there's your local provision what does your Charter say your code and your procurement policy and last depending on how the procurement is funded you could have additional requirements so oftentimes when you have um you take on grants like from the state the state will have specific language that also needs to be contained in your procurement so this is just kind of a a ballpark like I said for some of these projects I'm really focusing on construction more than anything else because you were looking at this in the context of a lot of public construction projects um in prioritizing or in in identifying your priorities for the city so with regard to procuring construction contracts um there are statutes out there that says if it costs $300,000 or more um for a construction project you have to go out to bid now with every law there are exceptions so I don't want you to think that this is the end all be all but I did want to provide you that generally that's the first kind of threshold we look at what's a good estimate for this construction project and knowing that if it's over 300 we're probably putting it out to bid interesting if it's over 20000 we have to advertise it in the newspaper and there's time frames associated with that I don't know why the numbers don't match up but that's the way Florida statute is right now um so newspaper yeah yeah yeah and if only you could just put it on the website but it actually requires newspaper you know every year there's a lob on whether or not it can just go to websites or whether or not you still have to continue to publish so it's kind of interesting that you bring that up um the legislature did change that uh the 300 and the 75 to allow it to increase based on a cost index so um know that that is rolling and here's the advertisement I was mentioning so if it's over 200,000 it has to be advertised um for at least 20 one days prior to the bid opening and 5 days prior to any um pre-bid conference and if it's 50,000 then it's 30 days I only put these in here just to let you know that when we're talking about the timing of these events we can have the package ready but then if we have to advertise it for you know 20 or 30 days that's added into your overall timeline and this is procuring um Professional Services So and I've actually and this kind of backwards but when you think about a project the first thing you do is you get a designer okay you're going to have to have somebody to design um what you're going to construct if you're hiring for engineering um architecture mapping surveying you have to go through What's called the Consultants competitive negotiation act which is CCNA and that is um for any projects hold on that are over I'm so sorry there is a typo on there for sure um with regard to uh a study being 35,000 and 325,000 there was a period in there and there should not be an extra zero those are not Millions but um in the 35,000 so when you think about that think about the studies you're doing let's say that you wanted to um um study um maybe a bike path and where you're going to put it all through the city and you hire somebody to come in and conduct that study if it's over 35,000 you've got to go through CCNA for construction if the individual cost of the construction um is 325,000 then you are also um going to have to go through CCNA so that's a two-step process so now we're all we're doing is we're hiring the designer and the first thing we have to do is we go out we put out an RFQ we get that selection in and that is all based on qualifications as a matter of fact price can't be included so you're going through this and just looking at who is the best qualified um engineer for the design work that then comes before the the city commission and you rank them you rank them one um through three or more and then we go to the negotiation and award City staff starts with whoever you've ranked number one and they start that negotiation process if for some reason it's not successful because maybe they're um now we're seeing dollar amounts and they're just extraordinarily High um or out of market then they go to number two if they not successful number two then go to number three and so forth and so on so once they've negotiated a successful contract it comes back before the commission and you award that contract so when we're talking about design remember we've created the RFQ we've put it out for solicitation which you're probably giving them at least 30 days to respond then you're going through the qualifications process and a commission meeting then you're going through the negotiation award process and a commission meeting so you can see that just in hiring a designer it can be quite time consuming right after you procure those um Professional Services then you would also go and do um the construction services and like I showed you before even if you had those documents together you have advertising requirements of anywhere to 20 to 30 days you would leave um you may only give them 30 days to respond you may give them more it just depends on the construction project you get that in and then it comes before the commission and the commission awards that contract so um the other thing I wanted to let you know is that there are also variations on a theme so what I've talked to you about right now is your traditional it's called design bid build but there's also a process called a design build which is again where you combine those two processes what you do in that instance and I'll just walk through it real quick is you actually hire a designer they came up with they come up with the CR criteria so again thinking of the process and then that criteria just those um just those criteria are put out and you have firms that come in and go I will Design the project that meet that performance criteria and be the Builder as well there's pros and cons in the traditional and in the design build contracts I will tell you the city has generally done the traditional design bid build but um there are uh local governments that do design build there's also something called a construction manager at risk this is something that hasn't been done in Treasure Island before um but it is another option when it comes to procurement once again there's advertisements there's um solicitations and then there's awarding and with construction manager at risk there's normally some communication with regard to the design as far as you have a designer on board who's designed the project but the construction manager at risk works with them to see if maybe there's a more cost-effective way way um of being able to do something once they've kind of talked about that design and you have that final they give you a guaranteed price for which they'll come in um with their subs and build that project so it's another procurement but all of these no matter which path you take um are significant time now this next one I don't want you to be scared by okay because this is just an option for how timing can be it is not mandatory and I'll talk through why these are even assigned this isn't working with staff and kind of trying to get an idea of time frames from the moment you decide hey we want to do this project all the way down until you've got a shovel with dirt um so first of all there's staff and they're developing those procurement documents for the ones that they've done um you know we have the kind of standardized documents in place that could be quicker than the 12 weeks for the ones we've never done that would be development of whole new whole new procurement documents that could take significantly longer um then you have that if you have a designer involved and you're going through the traditional it's a two-step process that seems like a lot with 24 weeks um again it depends on the type of project you're doing um if it's I don't want to say Garden variety but I mean if it's something where there's been a lot of standard designs on it it's probably going to take them a lot less if you have a lot of complicated matters and if particularly if you have permitting issues um they can be working with the permitting agencies we've separated that out but and I've got a big question there because oftentimes during the design they'll be working with the permitting agencies to even see what is permitted in their design U being a Coastal Community uh depending on what you're doing with seaw walls whether or not it's State lands or um actually City lands all of that can impact it um and I can give you an example on that when we were looking at Treasure Bay and getting that permitted that uh living Shoreline uh there were they went through everything on the pering process with Swift Mud D and then it went to State lands and um it was only in that in that end of that permitting that we realized about the state lands and in order to resolve that issue we actually went back to historical Aerials I think back to the 1940s to demonstrate where those properties had been but and this was you know on Paradise where there wasn't even construction at that time so we were looking at them and determining and drawing lines and working with the state surveyor just to get um it identified that actually those were City lands not State lands and they were able to permanent so obviously on something like that that process might be even longer that is not your traditional project but it I do want to make you aware that um that timing is flexible then you have your Construction contract that actually goes out to bid um again we have 12 weeks there I think that too um depends on the uh notice that's required and how long you need to give them to assemble their team and submit a bid if it's a very traditional build I think that that's something that might be shortened if it's something that's more complic at and you're going to have multiple different contractors who were kind of coming together and putting in a joint bid it could be on the longer side and then of course that's bringing it also to you having you award and then um issuing a notice to proceed and having them put a shovel in the ground so I I bring this to you only from the standpoint of an informational piece and to say that you know you've identified projects and obviously they're not you know staff isn't necessarily working on anything one at a time so these will be happening but when we're looking at all the projects and the time frames involved um I wouldn't want you to think that okay the master Pump Station you know that's first on everybody's priority that we're going to be bringing you contract documents next month because it's going to it's going to take a little while um and in large part that's because of the restrictions just the legal restrictions that we have to comply with with regard to public procurement so I know I've gone through this rather quickly but it's the end of the night um but if you have any questions um and again this was just to bring this out for conversation um I'm happy to take any questions that you have oh one other thing I'll add is those factors that I identified there just understand those are that's if everything goes well because you can also have challenges that happen and that can prolong um those procurements as well so and you can have funding source agreements that require um additional timing and that can affect it as well [Music] so any questions I I guess I'm pretty surprised when I see that timeline in particular so thank you for alerting us to that but when I was doing the math in my head $45,000 a month times the number of months we're talking about we're talking about before a facility would even be ready to be moved in maybe 3 years out there so I think some of that will um and I'm not saying that that will necessarily follow on that I know that there are um construction companies that traditionally serve um police and fire and so they're probably much more accustom with that kind of build um even if you were to do a combined unit uh again also with design I know I mean everybody or many municipalities have police and fire or one of the other stations within their municipality so I think that that's something that is more of a traditional um design um and then we're also you know talking about are there other ways um that we could use maybe one of those other procurement kind of weighing it one of those other procurement processes that could speed this up faster um without jeopardizing the quality um and and putting the city at any additional risk my question would be with the uh and probably for the two chiefs you know the uh the safety building um you know we don't have any facilities we're in trailers um uh do we feel as though we're going to get money from the state uh or federal government or somebody to help us build I will let them speak and may why they do come up what I need to also clarify is when when I talk about $45,000 a month right now we're at the 100% cost reimbursement back from FEMA and so the first four months I think it's the first 120 days are reimbursable after that it becomes a 7525 split so 75% is done from FEMA 25% to this city where half of that is normally paid for by the state so our cost share would be 12 a half% on a monthly basis of that $45,000 after the 120 day point for how long um it can go up to um two years but the caveat is is that you're actively working towards yeah a permanent facility right they'll keep doing extensions for you good two years that's pretty good keep in mind as as bad as this is to speak about um and you saw this happen in Milton we had those facilities delivered after Helen and when we were in crossair for Milton they came and picked them up and took them away again so if we again are in the crosshairs for another storm this next storm season that's something else we need to consider so and as long as as as Chief Bar says as long as we're in the process design phase building phase it's they're more likely to grant us a further extension for that rent good so to your question about funding um you know we had a good discussion with the bond attorney and our City attorney uh last week regarding single project limits so that's something we'll need to get into and look at and staff will bringing recommendations on that um there's uh it's a reimbursement resolution that uh we could we could look at which would basically be um and and the attorneys would have to explain it better than I do but basically we're assuming we're getting FEMA money we're assuming we're getting insurance proceeds um we'll have adoram taxes coming in and potentially legislative budget Appropriations from the state so we can we can do some things to make our cash flow situation A little better while we await those um we had our kickoff meeting for Hurricane Milton today and our scoping meeting for Hurricane Helen with FEMA um we're now for Helen we're on the hook for 60 days uh to develop a damage inventory that's a list of all the damage we sustain which these projects will be part of these are large projects projects because they're over a million dollars so um we can phase those to get parts of that money coming in sooner rather than later potentially um I I'm I hesitate to to put the cart before the horse but um we got information from our state lobbyist that um for the upcoming legislative session uh we can reach out to our state legislators uh specifically representative Cheney and submit a legislative budget request been working up some numbers on that uh potentially if when we first looked at this facility back in 2019 we were looking at at $8 million um we had covid we had all the price increases in construction the material scarcity scare and um you know as you look at your property values things have just gone up um latest estimates I've seen are $750 to $850 a square foot foot for this type of facility if you want to do a tajma hall 1,200 a square foot so doing the math at 800 a square foot we're looking right around 10,000 plus design or I'm sorry 10 million plus design um with that being said I would think we will have uh Jess tells me several 100,000 in insurance proceeds from our washed out building it's not much it's a 60y old building um we have some money that we had had in the CIP and and could you know have budgeted for it for our share um I was looking at a legislative budget request potentially of 8 million from the state uh we've had indications from director Guthrie from fdm I've spoken with the State Fire Marshal's Office director there said that she supports our facility I know you've spoken with your um State Police and Sheriff's agencies so if we could Garner that kind of support and with our local uh elected officials our legislators um pushing that they do award these these uh Appropriations um I was looking through the list and I've seen eight1 million Appropriations for fire stations pass and and be signed by the governor in the budget so it could happen again I don't want to put the C before the horse but that's what we're looking at and um it's kind of where we go i' would like the workshop shop this sooner rather than later obviously yep um for the reasons Chief mentioned and you know that you astutely brought up that it's not cheap to rent beachfront property even if it is a a triple wide trailer so um being the best stewards I think we should Workshop this figure out where we want it prior commission said next door um I've heard there's been some discussion about potentially um on the site or near the site on 108 uh I think I speak for chief parkley we just need a station at the commission's pleasure where it is um we can buy land elsewhere and put the station it doesn't matter to us at this point centrally located is better both sites that we currently own um have pros and cons and we can we can present that at the soonest I think it's important to remember post storm I know a lot of you were down here and and we were visited by all of our local legislators and they all want to help us and this is time we go and say yeah this is how we need your help um myself and the chief you know are not that we both have legislative experience I'm in Tallahassee if we have to take another trip up there again and go meet with our legislators in person up there before you know budget talks and stuff like that goes in the state we're not doing that but this is something as a community I think we can ask for and and this is we put our power together as a community and start start calling in some of these favors yeah I'm just curious I I see all the uh the police cars that are parked out here and uh when are we going to start um allowing for the officers to take their vehicles home they already do we're three officers down right now and the rest of it is the is our fleet cars we have two fleet cars one of them is going to auction we're having two cars upfitted right now newer cars and two of those cars are going away they're going to auction oh good great thank you and I will say that both Chiefs make a great point which is you know the time frame that was provided was assuming you you have the funds so that's not to say that it can't run parallel but I mean just understanding that if obviously if you don't have the funding for the project whether it's a financing whether it's a legislative Grant or other grants or appropriation um you'll be seeking those at the same time before you would award a Construction contract yep and there was other one other Grant um Stacy had been working on it um I believe it was through div State Environmental Protection resiliency a resiliency Grant over a million dollars so that would be nice um there's mitigation grants from the state and federal government which if depending on which site we choose and and how we choose to do it we can upgrade from a standard design to a more resilient design um so there's all kinds of options in there we just need to make some decisions and move forward on what we want um generally to get grant funding and and apply for most of these things you need 30% design so again the process of awarding a architect and engineer and all that has to be gone through so yep understand great I think we'd all all agreed I think anybody in this room would disagree that we the urgency on this is critically important for a lot of the reasons that Chief Barkley uh mentioned and to to take advantage of of the uh the Good Will that we've established with the state and uh Federal uh elected officials to help us with the funding uh that that uh Goodwill is going to diminish the further away we get from from the Hurricanes so uh we really need to put this on the front burner I would agree with that commissioner Dicky thank you ditto thank you okay and that would conclude this Workshop unless the commission has any other questions or anything they would like to make a note questions I don't think so all right we are adjourned