--------- Good morning. The subcommittee on early childhood, elementary, and secondary education will come to order. I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the chair is authorized to call recess at any time. Child care is essential to helping working parents thrive and our local
economies grow. At the same time, child care can be exceedingly expensive, and the cost is only climbing. According to a 2024 data analysis by Child Care Aware of America, my home state of California, has the third highest cost of infant
care in the country, $22,628 annually for center-based care. US Department of Labor data from 2022 demonstrates that families spend between 8.9 and 16% of their median income on full
day care for one child. One analysis of 2024 costs found the national average price of care to be $13,128. I think most parents would agree this is simply unsustainable. And while cost is one obstacle, so is
access. Using 2019 data, the bipartisan policy center calculated the first known estimate of the national gap in child care. That is roughly 11 million children needed child care, but the national supply only created 7.8 million
slots, creating a 31.2% child care gap. The child care and development block grant is the federal program governing child care programs for low-income working families. The block grant program exists to help working families
access affordable child care, giving them the freedom to remain in the workforce and increase their economic opportunity. One solution to the problem of childcare affordability and access. Choice is a pillar of the program, giving parents the freedom to make both lifestyle and economic decisions that
best meet their individual families needs. When choice is limited, either circumstantially through a lack of child care slots as rural areas disproportionately feel, or because grants and contracts are given priority over family decision-making, those families and our economy suffer. Worker
support is another pillar of the block grant program with multiaceted economic benefit. Child care helps parents remain in the workforce, which meets the needs of American industry in light of a national workforce participation rate that is currently just 62.4%. 4% according to the Bureau of Labor
Statistics. But the work requirements of the block grant program also help parents and families grow their economic opportunity and realize financial freedom, often helping low-income families move beyond the need for a federal safety net and thrive independent of government support.
Together, families, businesses, and our communities see boosted economic growth as a result. The Block Crank program is a great support for those least likely to access and afford child care, but it alone cannot solve the problem most parents in America feel. As I mentioned
earlier, child care can be very expensive to provide. Plain and simple. The high standards and health, safety, and ch and caregiver uh to child ratios are necessary to provide for the needs of our children and give parents peace of n mind, but they come at a significant cost. There's also a
threshold beyond which parents can just no longer afford to pay for care, which explains why some parents, particularly moms have to leave the workforce to the detriment of our businesses, local economies, and the families themselves. The differential between the cost of providing care and what parents can
afford is so vast that no one entity can provide all the needed resources, including the federal government. We we don't have to look back too far to see clear proof of this. During and after the COVID pandemic, the federal government provided unprecedented
funding to the child care sector. All told, pandemic era legislation increased regular child care block grant funding by nearly 300%. And while this additional federal spending of taxpayer dollars may have kept child care providers open, it
actually seems to have done little to address the affordability and sustainability of the child care market. Cost to families are still exorbitant. Providers are fighting for their needed workforce. A significant care gap remains and employers see the effect a lack of child care has on their
business. The only reasonable approach to addressing the affordability and sustainability challenges facing the child care sector is through public private partnership. Many examples exist throughout the country and today we are privileged to hear testimony from policy
experts and state leaders who are tackling this economic challenge head on. From statewide initiatives to local investments to muchneeded policy reforms, we can inform and encourage our communities to think creatively about modernizing our child care sector toward
affordable and sustainable solutions. With that, I yield to the ranking member for an opening statement. Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank you to the witnesses for being here today and bringing your your expertise and experience. For years, I've heard from parents with young children that have
reliable child care that that having reliable child care makes all other work possible. A majority of families with children under the age of six need some form of child care. And in most households, all of the adults are working. In fact, all available parents
are in the workforce for about 69% of children under the age of six. And of course, when kids get older, they still need before and after school care and uh in and extended learning opportunities or they will have the gaps uh that that really challenge families as well. But despite this overwhelming need,
childcare remains both expensive and scarce. It's something every witness here today included in their testimony and in today's economy, parents must often juggle multiple responsibilities to make ends meet. Too many families today are struggling with higher prices
at prices at the grocery store, skyrocketing costs for health care and housing. Child care is a necessity for the majority of American families with children. And in many places across the country, it's more expensive than housing or instate college tuition. So
this forces families to make impossible choices. Do they pay for rent, utilities, food, and healthcare? Do they pay for child care? And in too many cases, families settle for lower quality care or may decide to leave the workforce entirely, jeopardizing their financial stability and future
opportunities for their children. This issue is especially acute in my home state of Oregon, where the hurdles are both supply and affordability. And I speak with many Oregonians, often women, who are limited by the lack of access to child care. But it isn't just women, it's families, and it's the business
community as well. Earlier this year, I held a town hall meeting in Clatskani, which is a rural city, about 1,700 people, very rural, where the Head Start Center is the only child care available in the entire city. And on Oregon's coast, the limited options for child
care prevent the coastal towns from expanding and thriving when families have to turn down jobs there because there's no child care available. The Oregon legislature created a childare infrastructure fund in 2023 to help expand child care options, but the funding is just a drop in the bucket
compared to what is truly needed to meet the demand. The lack of affordable care limits opportunities, creates stress for families, and also holds back the economy. Childcare challenges for parents and caregivers in the workforce force cost the economy an estimated $122
billion each year in lost earnings, productivity, and revenue. Oregon alone loses about $1.4 billion each year. And these numbers reflect the missed econ economic potential as parents and particularly mothers are forced to leave
their jobs or reduce their working hours. When parents cannot work because they do not have reliable child care, businesses lose, skilled workers, and the economy suffers. And despite the high cost of child care, care providers are also struggling. The early care and
education workforce is overwhelmingly composed of women, particularly women of color. Childare workers am are among the lowest paid sectors, and many childare providers have little or no access to other workplace benefits like healthcare. It's unacceptable that the
people who are caring for our nation's youngest barely a make a living wage and have stability in their own lives. And I've spoken with childcare workers who can't afford childcare for their own children. The child care workforce is essential to our society, yet their compensation does not reflect the
importance of their work. As Dr. Freriedman included in her testimony, the root of the child care crisis is that we are relying on the private market to solve a problem it cannot. And I know the chairman mentioned public private partnerships and that's going to be part of the testimony today. That
might work in some communities, but there are many communities in in Oregon and across the country where these do not have the ability or resources to do that. Without bold and sustained federal investment, child care costs will continue to rise and the workforce that provides the care will continue to
struggle. We know that investing in child care helps address the needs of children, families, and providers. And we also know that it is a good investment. Thank you, Miss Codella Low, who you wrote in your testimony that for every $1 invested in early childhood
programs, the return is up to $17 in reduced need for public assistance, increased earnings, better educational outcomes. We know these programs work, yet we still struggle to fund them. I'm grateful that solving the child care crisis is a bipartisan issue. Democrats
and Republicans alike understand the importance of caring for our nation's children. We have bipartisan support for a 12.4 4 billion investment in the childcare development block grant. I've been working for years on a bipartisan basis. I don't think Mr. Stefonic is here yet. We started working on the
child and adult care food program years ago to streamline it and to update it. But I do need to point out that many of the policies that my colleagues in the majority are still supporting will make life harder. Uh including policies in the big ugly bill that will cut crucial
programs like SNAP and Medicaid. These are programs that support children, family, child care centers, and the child care workforce. Thousands, millions of of children in this country get their health benefits from Medicaid and rely on SNAP. So, let's acknowledge that hurdles to fully fund child care
limits e economic growth, threatens employers and small businesses, hurts working families and the early educator workforce, and because the early years are so critical to development, hinders the ability of children to meet their full potential. Again, it is a good
investment to invest in early childhood education. It's undeniable that care is necessary for parents and the economy and the workforce, but it is also important for children. Quality child care means not just having a place to park your kids during the day so you can go to work. Child care is early learning
and social and emotional development. It sets kids up for success for the rest of their lives. Frankly, child care is the best investment we can make in our future. We should invest in childare. We have the childare for working families act and that would cap the cost of child care at 7% of income making it
affordable for all parents and also provide historic investments in the childare workforce including higher pay, better benefits and improved training opportunities. This workforce is critical to doing the the uh important work. Again, investing in childcare is an investment in our nation's future. We
can and must enact policies that make child care accessible, affordable, and high quality for every family. The cost of inaction is great, and families, workers, and the economy cannot wait any longer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the discussion, and I yield back. Pursuant to committee rule 8C, all
members who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5:00 PM, 14 days after this hearing. And without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material noted during the
hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. I know that some of our colleagues who are not permanent members of this subcommittee may be waving on for the purpose of today's hearing. I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness is Mrs. Caitlyn Kodella Low, the managing director of
human capital for the bipartisan policy center here in Washington DC. And to introduce our second witness, I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Indiana, Representative Mesmer. Well, thank you, Chairman Kylie. It's my honor and privilege to introduce the Honorable Todd D. Barton, mayor of the city of Crawford'sville in the great state of
Indiana. Mayor Barton has been an excellent leader of his community and I'm eager eager for him to share how they can apply the successes in Crawford'sville on a larger scale. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Mesmer. Our third witness is Dr. Dr. Ruth Friedman, a senior
fellow for the Century Foundation, also here in DC. And our fourth witness is Miss Celia Hartman Sims, the president and founder of the ABC Darian Group in Houston, Texas. We thank the witnesses for being here today, and we look forward to your
testimony. Pursuant to committee rules, I would ask that you each limit your oral presentation to a threeminut summary of your written statement. As committee members have many questions for you, the clock will countdown from three minutes. However, pursuant to committee rule 8D and committee practice, we will not cut you off cut
off your testimony until you reach the 5-minute mark. I'd also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of your responsibility to provide accurate information to the subcommittee. I'll first recognize Mrs. Kodella Low for your testimony. Chairman Kylie, ranking member
Madameichi, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Caitlyn Cadella Lo and I serve as managing director of the human capital program at the bipartisan policy center. Child care is more than a family issue. It's a foundational component of our economic
infrastructure. Yet providers are stretched thin, operating on razor thin margins with limited capacity to grow or improve quality without raising prices. Twothirds of families, according to BPC polling, are already paying the most they can afford. This broken market areo
is holding back families, businesses, and our broader economy. Addressing it is a necessary step towards building a stronger, more competitive workforce. American families are not a one-sizefits-all. They differ in geography, schedule, culture, income, and every day, parents navigate complex
decisions to do what's best for their children. As a working mom of two small children, I know firsthand that there is no more personal or critical choice than deciding how and with whom your child will be cared for. At BPC, our national survey consistently shows that parents
prioritize trust and flexibility when choosing child care. For some, that means center-based care. For others, it's a neighbor, a relative, a homebased provider. And others, staying at home with their child is the right decision for them. Federal policy should support, not limit the choices parents must make.
Child care is not just a family issue. Childare is a workforce issue and a critical component to our economic infrastructure. Our economy loses more than $120 billion dollar every year due to breakdowns in the child care system from lost earnings, missed work, and
reduced productivity. Approximately 71% of all children under the age of five in the US live in a household where all parents work. 58% of parents report major disruptions in work because they couldn't find affordable, reliable child care. And today, the average cost of
child child care exceeds $10,000 per child. And it's more than public college tuition in most states, more than the cost of rent in all 50. Employers are paying the price. Child care challenges lead to higher absenteeism, lower retention, and difficulty recruiting
talent. For small business and frontline industries in particular, child care is no longer a nice to have. It's a competitive necessity. If we want to grow our labor force, close talent gaps, and build the best economy in the world, then childare is not an optional. It's essential. The federal government has
provided support for families through CCDBG, and that funding is the cornerstone of our nation's child care system. This program has helped ensure parents are able to make ends meet and access the child care that meets their needs. However, the system was last updated more than a decade ago, and that
system must modernize to meet the needs of today's families. BPC has long advocated for smart policy updates that can make the system stronger, and drive innovation. We believe targeted reforms can expand access, improve affordability, preser preserve family
choice while also strengthening the workforce in the economy. Modernization should focus on enabling more parents to work, and support multiple care options. recognize that child care is essential infrastructure that underpins both today's labor force and the development of tomorrow's workforce. It's through
that lens that BPC has launched the Commission on the American Workforce to create a bipartisan strategy to strengthen the workforce, expand economic opportunity, and ensure the United States remains competitive. Child care's critical is a critical component of the commission's work because, as
we've stated, without stable child care for families, our workforce and thus our economy breaks. Childare is not just a personal decision. It's a national priority. It touches every part of our economy. And yet, for far too many families, our current system makes feel like we are being asked to solve an
impossible equation. I often describe child care as a three-legged stool. Access, quality, and affordability. Each leg essential, and yet achieving all three at once remains elusive for most parents and equally challenging for policymakers. When one leg is missing, the whole system becomes unstable.
families, employers, and the broader economy are paying the price. We have a responsibility to steady that stool and through smart policy and targeted reforms and bipartisan cooperation, we can build a system that supports the workforce of today and the workforce of tomorrow. And the good news is there is
bipartisan momentum and I want to thank you all for your leadership on that. The bipartisan policy st center stands ready to support the committee in advancing practical lasting solutions that reflect the needs of the workforce and the economic
demands. We look forward to working with you. Thank you very much. Thanks very much. Mayor Barton, you're recognized for your testimony. Chairman Kylie, ranking member Bonachini Bon Bon Bonamichi and members of the committee. I want to thank you for inviting me to
testify here today. My name is Todd Barton and I serve as the mayor of Crawford'sville, Indiana. Today I'm here to share our community's journey in addressing the critical shortage of affordable, highquality child care, a challenge that has deeply affected our workforce and economic potential. Early
in my tenure, through annual visits with local employers, we repeatedly heard the same concern. A lack of child care was keeping people out of the workforce or reducing their productivity. We confirmed through confirmed this through local and statewide studies, one of
which showed our community was losing nearly $8 million annually in business impact alone due to childcare related issues. It was clear child care wasn't just a family issue. It was an economic issue. In response, we formed a child
care task force in collaboration with county leaders, employers, and the McGomery County Community Foundation. That task force evolved into the McGomery County Early Early Childhood Coalition, which now leads our efforts to create an accessible, highquality
early education system. The coalition's five strategic goals are to improve education, accessibility, affordability, program quality, and support for child care providers. Our initiatives have been wide ranging. We launched Camp
Milligan, a full-day summer program for school-aged children. We hired a full-time early learning director to support child care providers, created professional development opportunities for educators, and improved affordability for working parents by building sustainability
and sustainability funding into our model. A centerpiece of our effort is the McGomery County Early Learning Center, which opened earlier this year with 124 new child care seats. This $5 million project was made possible by an
unprecedented partnership of 16 entities across government, business, and philanthropy. It has already increased our child care capacity by over 30%. and is helping us recruit and retain workers in an era of strong local economic growth.
Ultimately, we've come to understand that early learning is not only critical for today's workforce, but essential for shaping the workforce of tomorrow. We are proud of the model we built in Crawford'sville, a datadriven, community-led, and fully collaborative
approach that we believe can serve as a template for other rural communities. But to sustain this scale of work, we need strong federal support. Programs like the child care development block grant and employer provided child care credit are essential tools that we need
at our disposal. These programs will help working families stabilize our workforce and invest in the next generation. Thank you for the opportunity to share our story and I look forward to your questions. Thanks very much. Dr. Friedman, you're recognized for your testimony.
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to testify today. I spent 25 years working to increase the high quality uh early learning programs and access to them. most recently as director of the HHS Office of Child Care for the Biden
Harris administration where I oversaw the 12 billion federal child care program known as CCDBG or CCDF as well as overseeing the 53 billion in childcare COVID relief funding. As director, I spoke regularly with providers, state agencies, tribes, and
territories about their child care challenges. I heard about the CCDF program and how important it was and the successes of the pandemic relief funding in stabilizing a child care sector and lowering family costs during a very turbulent time. But they also made clear
we have a much bigger nationwide child care crisis. Put simply, parents can't find or afford the child care they need and providers can't charge high enough fees to stay afloat. There are three main interrelated problems fueling this crisis. First, there isn't enough child
care to meet the demand. So, families struggle to find care that fits their work hours and their family needs. Child care for infants and toddlers, care for children with disabilities, care during non-traditional work hours and in rural areas is particularly scarce. Second,
child care is a major financial strain for families. In almost all states, families pay more for child care than housing or food. And the cost of child care is rising faster than inflation. The high prices hurt family budgets, make family life harder, and cause
undermployment and unstable employment. And third, providers, most of whom are small businesses, are struggling to stay afloat and stay staffed because they can't afford to meet the rising costs of labor, rent, insurance, and everyday goods. In most communities, the business
model only works at all by paying child care staff very low wages with few benefits. and problems recruiting and retaining childare workers has become particularly acute. Families, businesses, and America's economy are paying the price of this reality to the
tune of billions of dollars in lost wages, productivity, and growth every year. The root of the child care crisis is that we are relying on the private market to solve a problem it cannot. The market doesn't provide enough child care to meet family needs because the true
cost of care is greater than prices parents can pay. Providers can't address a workforce shortage without improving compensation. And better compensation and stable operations aren't possible without significant tuition hikes, and parents are already maxed out. The CCDF
program, while absolutely critical for the 900,000 families who get assistance and the millions more who benefit from its quality initiatives, is neither funded nor designed to fix the scope of the childcare problems we're discussing today. Likewise, the Head Start program
and the preschool development grant program help with the situation, but they also aren't intended to address the scope of the problem. Solving the child care crisis requires significant new federal and state investments comprehensively directed at staff
compensation and building a stable supply with a range of child care options without the cost falling to parents. Ranking member Scott and Senator Murray have led the way with a transformative plan for the type of child care reform American families
really need. An approach like the childcare for working families act would address supply issues and re reduce costs for millions of families while building on the flexibility of the current system. It would eliminate child care as a barrier to parents stable
employment families economic stability and parent and child wellbeing giving parents much more freedom to raise strong families. Recent federal proposals to child care and the tax code will not solve the child care crisis because they do not they do little about parent costs or
supply issues and do nothing for the childare workforce shortage. Worse, we're going in the wrong direction in three important ways. First, the reconciliation bill is going to exacerbate the child care workforce shortage, reduce supply, and make it harder for many families to afford childare. Second, political leadership
at HHS has indicated to some stakeholders they intend to get rid of the 2024 rule that finally aligned the CCDF program with federal statute to pay providers on time and more fairly and when implemented would improve parent choice and help stabilize provider
operations. And third, Doge pushed out half of the federal office of childare staff this spring. Without adequate staffing, federal funds will not go as far and ultimately child care will be less safe, harder to find, and more expensive. Our
country's approach of relying primarily on a parent funded, broken market fails families, hurts businesses, and harms America's economy. This is a solvable problem, but will require transformative investment for America's families. Thank you. Thanks very much, Ms. Sims, you're
recognized for your testimony. Uh, Chairman Kylie, ranking many ranking member Bonamichi, and members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you all today. To get straight to the point, as you've heard by the other witnesses, parents of young children can't work without child care. And because child care is directly
tied to the ability of parents to work, child care is inextricably tied to employers being able to hire and communities being able to thrive. Breakdowns in child care result in parents missing out on income and loss productivity for employers. K12 school
closures during COVID made clear that parents with young children need child care to work. The child care sector, unlike K12, understood this, kept its doors open for families, and demonstrated the truly essential service that childare provides for workers,
employers, and the broader economy. Childcare access creates economic opportunity at the individual level and economic development at the local level. With limited availability of child care, towns lose residents and businesses. A rural North Carolina county I recently
visited described how for multiple reasons postcoid, it lost over half of its center-based care and 80% of its family childare homes. With so little care now available, residents are having to find child care in a more populous neighboring county. If people feel they have to go to another county for child
care, they may decide it better all around to seek work in that neighbor neighboring county. Small communities can't survive, let alone grow, without accessible child care. Nothing, however, is more personal to parents than deciding with whom to leave their child when they go to work. And without a
doubt, as others have said, the number one criterion for parents in choosing a childare provider is trust. Parents aren't simply looking for the cheapest childare arrangement. They will sacrifice time, convenience, and money to ensure their children are in quality, safe environments. Given the very
personal nature of making a child care decision, parents have varying child care preferences, indicating strong support for our nation's mixed delivery system of child care. One that is inclusive of centers, family child care homes, faith-based providers, for-profit, nonprofit, public, and
private providers. No two families or children are alike. What is best for one family will not be best for another family. Parents, not government, are and should remain the ones who choose what is best for their child. Respecting parent choice in child care is the core tenant of the federal childare and
development block grant and the reason the program has garnered such strong bipartisan support over the years. CCDBG should remain the federal government's hallmark childare program to support America's working families. Affordability, however, is the greatest barrier for working families to access
child care if they want need and want. But why, people ask, is child care so expensive? People, plain and simple. Staff salaries are by far the greatest budget line item for a childare provider. Yes, a provider might reduce the number of teachers in classrooms, but fewer teachers in classrooms is bad
for child safety. To be sure, there are, as in any regulated sector, rules and regulations that can and should be either cut or streamlined to reduce costs, but teachers cannot be reduced. Tackling childcare affordability for working families is a public private
endeavor, including government, federal, state, and local, parents, businesses, and religious and other community organizations. As others have discussed, local communities are addressing the childcare access and affordability problem in varying ways and designing solutions for their local contacts. At
the federal government, at the federal level, parents and businesses show support for a multi-pronged federal strategy to assist working parents afford childare. The good news is that all of these solutions exist that all these solutions they support are existing federal programs. Thus, we
don't need new federal programs to address childcare affordability. We need to continue to support and promote the programs we presently have, including child care vouchers provided under CCDBG, the federal government's hallmark federal child care program. Federal tax credits, including the employer provided
child tax credit, the child independent care tax credit, and dependent care assistant programs, all of which are presently included for enhancement under the House and Senate reconciliation bills. and three, a host of current federal programs under numerous agencies, including the Agricultural
Department, SBA, that can be used to expand child care in underserved communities. In closing, for working families, child care is a mustave, not a nice to have, and is a service that pays immediate economic benefit for individuals being able to work, employers being able to hire, and
communities being able to grow. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. Under committee rule 9, we will now question witnesses under the fiveminute rule. Uh the representative from Guam, Mr. Moan is recognized first. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman and ranking member for hosting this important hearing today. And access to highquality, affordable child care is important to many parents and provides the flexibility needed to participate in the workforce. Child care benefits families and communities alike, boasting local economies and empowering parents.
Block grant approval is hard to receive because the threshold is so low. Workingclass families make too much money to qualify. Even if slightly above the minimum wage, you're disqualified. Households of two is at 62,71184.
And this forces parents to quit their jobs to access CCDBG payments. Miss Sims, something I've I've heard several times from my constituents is that the current system is broken and encourage encourages reliance on public
assistance and more than up uplifting families. Uh thresholds for assistance relative to incomes on Guam sometimes incentivize working parents to leave the workforce rather than participate in it. So, how can Congress reform these systems so that public assistance goes
hand in hand with social mobility and not against it? Uh, and Miss Cardella Lo, you'll follow. Same question, please. M. Um, thank you for the question. I mean, as you mentioned, um, the income eligibility, the federal statute limits that to a state. You
can't make more than 75% of a state median income. Um, what's important is to continue, I think, the long by uh bipartisan investments in the childcare development block grant. is that funding has increased. It first doubled under the first Trump administration. Has continued to double. I mean to to
continue to increase ever since. As more funds are in there, it has allowed states to increase their eligibility up against that cap. What's also important, we made some significant changes in the last reauthorization of CCDBG was to ensure that there was a graduated phase
out so that you're not creating a cliff effect so that if a parent who is presently receiving childcare assistance makes a dollar more that all of a sudden they automatically lose their assistance. You want that to stair step downward. um that encourages families to stay in the workforce, but not just stay
in the workforce, but to feel like they can take a, you know, a promotion and a raise and continue to move forward. Yeah. Um I would say what Celia said is absolutely correct. Um there has been increased funding. Bipart Policy Center has supported funding increases for
CCBG. I think one of the major factors of this is allowing for parents to make choices that ma that are right for them and also um allow for parents to metriculate in and out of the economy in a way that allows them to get the
training necessary to get on to the new jobs or to um continue in um you know any matter that allow allows them to have stability in the system. Thank you both. Uh, Mayor Burton, your city is similar in size to some of Guam's
villages, and I think our weather might be a bit different, though. In your testimony, you talked about how operating a childcare business is not economically feasible in smaller communities based on your experience and success. Uh, how can Congress empower working families and small communities
across America? Thank you for the question. And and I think you're correct. The weather is probably not similar. Uh yeah, I think you know for us it's figuring out how to bridge those gaps and understanding that in a rural community the the economies of scale are not in our favor and that's
the biggest challenge that we faced in operating childcare centers in our community. Um and it's finding ways for everyone to come together. You face the reality that that government can't solve this alone. Uh private operators can't solve this alone. And in most cases
philanthropy or nonprofits can't solve this. So, it's really laying out that business model and looking for those gaps and and plugging sustainability into the model. Thank you. And finally, um, Miss Low, uh, you began your testimony with the importance of parental choice. I think
it's important to remember that although we are one nation, we have many cultures in our country. That's especially true in places like the US territories. Can you elaborate more on how parental choice benefits communities across our country? Yeah, I think the um the reality is that parents are living very
different lives from their neighbors and they need to be able to to plug into a child care system that works for the needs that they have. My neighbor works overnights and you know there are very few child care centers that can help to um to deal with that challenge, right?
And so if we are only thinking about a one-sizefits-all solution, we are not thinking about the vast majority of our economy and the needs that each individual might have. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you very much. Ranking member
Bonamichi is recognized for Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for your excellent testimony. Um, across Oregon, like most of the country, there's an inadequate supply of appropriately regulated child care, especially for infants and toddlers. I have a friend who has twin grandbabies. Can you
imagine? I mean, this like automatically doubles the cost and the challenge. Uh, and I mentioned even before the pandemic, the Oregon Childcare Research Partnership found that all of our 36 counties were childcare deserts, meaning there are more children uh for every available three or more children for
every available slot. And the demand is far greater than the supply as we all recognize. Now, approximately half of the families in this country live in child care deserts. And there simply isn't enough to meet the demand. And what exists is unaffordable that we've
established. Nationwide child care costs have risen about 214% since my daughter was born in 1990. I'm surprised it's not more than that from what I'm hearing. And as I mentioned, to help address this, Oregon's legislature created the childcare infrastructure fund in 2023,
but again, just a drop in the bucket. At the federal level, we do not have a similar program dedicated to building out the supply of childcare. So Dr. Freriedman, welcome back to the committee. Uh, what policies have shown promise in increasing the supply of affordable child care? Thank you very
much for the question. So, I you know, interestingly, we have seen just in the past year a slight tick up um uh in supply for the first time um uh interestingly uh a decent tick up in family child care in a few different
states, California, Massachusetts, and Virginia. I don't think it's an accident. And I think this is a combination of a few different things. One is uh states used some of their COVID relief money to increase supply. They uh made startup grants, expansion
grants. Um uh they created uh family child care support networks to try to make the business side easier for family child care. California for the first time um uh made health care and retirement benefits available for family
child care and um we have seen some investments by states specifically aimed at trying to increase supply because they've recognized it is such a problem. In addition, one of the things we did in the administration that I think was very
important is with CCDBG, we um decided to enforce one of its very important tenants uh which requires um uh reimbursement rates to not be so low that parents don't have access to care
and states reacted by um uh increasing their reimbursement rates. Their rates for family child care were particularly low. In addition, we have seen more states try grants and contracts to try to address supply. Supply is a priority and I think you know what we see is when
there are investments in increasing supply, they are effective. What makes me nervous is some of the state investments are already being zeroed out. There were some private investments I know in some states where we saw increases that are not part of their next year budgets. And uh you know it
needs sustained investment. I I appreciate that. I know recruitment and retention are huge concerns. Dr. Freriedman, again, um immigrants make up about 20% of the child care workforce nationwide and in some urban areas up to 50% of the workforce. And I'm hearing
from constituents in Oregon who have significant concerns about immigration enforcement as it relates to child care, particularly with, for example, TPS workers, dreamers. The Trump administration as well as some of my colleagues across the aisle have demonized immigrants even though uh they
contribute greatly to our economy and our child care system relies on immigrant workers in many places. And unfortunately we have not been able to pass uh humane immigration reform or even the dream act to give these hardworking aspiring Americans a path to
citizenship. And since 2011, child care programs were considered offlimits for immigration enforcement. But the president ended this policy on day one, meaning that US immigration and customs enforcement can now enter schools, daycare centers, and other locations where children spend their days. So, Dr.
Freriedman, I know you're not an immigration expert, but do you agree that immigrants play an important role in the childcare sector? And if child care workers do not feel safe working in the sector, what would it take to prepare and educate thousands of new child care providers in a short period
of time? Yeah, thank you. There's no doubt that immigrants play a large part in providing the child care in this country. And if that important provider population uh were to disappear, we would be in real trouble. Child care
would um uh go away. We already are seeing that there aren't enough child care staff to keep all of the classrooms open uh in existing programs and and programs are closing down because of lack of staff. So, if the child care worker crisis increases, we will see
child care close and become less available and more expensive. Thank you. I'm out of time. I yield back. Representative McKenzie of Pennsylvania is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our testifiers here today. It's great to be talking about such an important issue uh for
working families and also uh the way that it impacts our economic growth here in America. It's also great to see that there is broad bipartisan uh recognition of the problem. I think everybody is recognizing the problem for working families uh to access quality and
affordable child care. Uh the pro the barrier that it creates for uh people going back into the workforce after they have their child and also the challenges that we face with child care providers. Uh we see this problem uh in my district in Pennsylvania where uh there is this
mismatch uh in our local marketplace of the quality affordable accessible child care uh that people are looking for and what's available uh for working families as they try to re-enter that market. So uh great to see that. Now my questions
uh I'm going to go to Ms. Sims first. Uh, I have legislation, House Resolution 1426, uh, which would expand the child independent care tax credit so parents can afford a broader range of child options. And I would love to hear your perspective as to why it's important
that the federal policies that we actually put out give families the flexibility to choose the child care arrangements uh, that best meet their individual needs. Um, sure. as I mentioned in my testimony um one I think you know the tax credits and CCDBG it's
all the above there's not going to be one singular program that can solve everything um and similar that is the same thing with a child care um provider there is not one pro the same provider for every parent or for every child uh there are a number of parents who have
two children and one child they will put in a child care center because they understand that that child will thrive there but they may take the other child and want to enroll them in a family childcare home because that smaller setting is best for them. Similar faith-based providers, you know, again,
trust is the number one criterion. And so, if that is your faith community, that is where you're going to seek and we want to have all of those solutions um available for our parents. But yes, it's all of the above in terms of uh the types of programs we need tax, there's tax relief, there is um the voucher
program um and on the parents, there's not one singular solution. And so we don't want to prejudice one provider over another. Well, I appreciate that and I I agree that the importance of choice is so uh paramount across all educational opportunities and that
extends to child care and uh early learning as well. So appreciate your your thoughts there. Mayor Barton, I'll go to you next. Uh you've shown great local leadership on this uh topic and I I want to commend you for everything that you've done in your local community so far. How could policies uh like
you've put in place there uh actually reflect this choice and the individuals from families and employers in your local community? How did you work that into your solutions? Um all of these different thoughts from local stakeholders uh in into what you've put
together just a really terrific solution. I think we acknowledged uh you know from the very beginning that choice had to be a part of what we were offering and we were very aware that as we were in the fundraising phase and creating our early learning center we didn't want to create
a situation where it was the government sanctioned child care option for our community. We wanted people to have a choice. So um and additionally we didn't want to lose existing childare capacity in our community. So we built into our system to not only expand capacity but to support the existing capacity which
is very diverse. It's a combination of homebased, center-based, um, you know, faith-based, all those pieces coming together. And we knew that we needed that that variety and those options in our community. So, we deliberately incorporated that into our model. Thank
you. And I I think it is a a model that what we've heard so far really uh could be replicated and expanded elsewhere. So, thank you for your leadership on this topic. Uh, finally, I'll go to Ms. low uh talking about uh that access to quality affordable child care. Uh we've
talked a little bit so far about the challenges that providers face uh and increasing supply of of child care providers not only in terms of the facilities but also the workers there uh getting them into those positions making sure that they're earning a a wage that
they can actually sustain their own families in these roles. So tell me about your thoughts on what we should be doing uh to increase supply and make it more likely that we get more child care providers online and operational. Yeah, thank you for the question. I think um providers as you know typically
are operating on razor thin margins as we know staff is the highest cost that they are paying out and we know that in order to do make any changes to the system they almost are always faced with raising tuition rates and we know that parents most likely just cannot afford
more. Um and so they are sort of put into an impossible equation and in in a lot of cases any um increased costs obviously are put to families and so there is um opportunities to think about
what we're doing in CCDBG and allow for um federal capital investments to um to to for for excuse me for the providers to help to um sorry help to um invest in
their facilities and um meet the needs that each of these facilities need in order to to grow and expand. Great. Well, thank you. Again, I want to thank all of you for being here today. Uh just a terrific topic. I'm glad we're focusing on it uh on this subcommittee.
I'd like to thank the leadership of our our chairman. Look forward to working with everybody on this problem that we all recognize to find some great bipartisan solutions uh to address these challenges and help working families across the country. Thank you, and I yield back. Representative Lee of Pennsylvania is recognized. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that we all uh understand and um agree that there is a child care crisis in this country. The cost of child care, if you could even find it, pushes thousands of families into poverty every single year. In
Pennsylvania, infant and toddler care costs uh an average of $14,000 per year. That's more than someone's college tuition. Uh we need child care in this country. We need it so that all parents and caregivers have the option to participate in the workforce and
provide for their families. We need it to support children's early cognitive, social, and emotional development. Um, which we know has lasting effects uh into adulthood. We need it because as human beings, it's our moral obligation to care for one another. Uh, which some
considers a radical stance. I don't, of course. We need more federal investment in child care because existing programs are quite frankly not cutting it. less than a third of children in my district receives subsidies uh that they're eligible for. That lays almost 7,000 children in my district uh whose
families cannot afford child care and who cannot access uh subsidies. Meanwhile, the average child care worker in my district makes less than $30,000 per year. That's almost $40,000 less than the average kindergarten teacher.
Uh who are also obviously grossly underpaid as a profession. childcare workers are overwhelmingly women, disproportionately women of color, of course. Yet, black early childhood educators still make less than 80% uh of what their white counterparts made. So, this is a crisis from every single
angle. This is especially insulting considering how much of today's childcare infrastructure we owe uh to black communities and the civil rights movement. When Hit Start was first founded, rid states like Mississippi refused federal Hit Start grants, arguing that benefits to black children
discriminated against white children. An argument that is erily similar to the current administration's rhetoric. But groups like uh child development group of Mississippi uh run by civil rights leaders and and black mothers persisted in to ensure that Head Start uh was successful. when school superintendents
refused to rent out buildings uh school buildings or buses to Head Start programs, communities came together to make sure that children had a place to go and a way to get there. So, we have models of of success. Since then, HeadStart has served over 40 million people, including me and over, you know,
2500 children in my district uh who are enrolled right now. His start success turned uh it into a program supported across political and geographic lines. So when a leak proposal from the Department of Health and Human Services earlier this year threatened to eliminate Head Start, this broad support
is why it was uh ultimately still included in the administration's budget uh request. So Dr. Freeman, briefly, what would happen if families uh and children, including the 2500 children in my district, uh what would happen if Head Start were cut? So if a Head Start
were cut or eliminated, it would um have a number of really devastating consequences in this country. First, for the families who would be receiving Head Start, they would lose out on that very important early childhood programming. And the families who receive very important wraparound services, help
finding jobs, help um receiving uh various source of social services would lose out on that as well. In addition, it would absolutely and immediately expand the child care crisis that we have in this country. And so you would have 750,000 families who suddenly did
not have child care and would need to find it and it would have huge economic in uh impacts as well. Uh real quickly, earlier this year the administration closed five regional Head Start offices and Doge fired hundreds of employees within the administration for children and families. How did those office closures and employee firings impact the
program? Yeah, we are already seeing uh very bad impacts from those closings. Programs, local programs are not getting the support and the answers they need. uh grants are coming slowly to them which is very very problematic in Head Start because they really work
monthto-month with their budget and um lost an enormous amount of expertise on the local needs um uh those programs serve. Thank you. So even if Head Start is ultimately funded, if the office of Head Start and his regional offices are not staffed, it's still set up to fail.
And as you pointed out in your testimony, Dr. Freriedman, even at its best, Headstart can't address the full scope of the child care crisis. In order to do that and remove barriers to economic growth, we have to address the persistent racial and gender wage gaps within childcare industry. We need to invest in programs like SNAP and
Medicaid that over 20% of Pennsylvania's early childhood educators rely on and that House Republicans just cut in the reconciliation bill they passed. We need much more federal investment in child care. We know that for every dollar we invest in early childhood ed childhood education, we save substantially more on
services that children won't need as they grow up. This is why we need to pass a Democrat's legislation like the Child Care for Every Community Act and Childcare for Working Families Act, which I'm looking forward to introducing with ranking member Scott in the near future. These bills would help put an end to this crisis by making sure families actually have access to child
care slots, that no family spends more than 7% of their income on child care, and that all early childhood educators make a liveable wage. Thank you so much for the time and I yield back. Representative Harris of North Carolina is rep recognized. Well, thank you, Mr. chairman and uh for the subject matter
we have today and and for this hearing and to all of you on the panel that have shared your time and your expertise. This is a very very relevant subject I think all of us are dealing with. Mayor Barton, um do you think the federal government on its own has the ability to
simply spend or regulate its way out of the child care crisis that we're discussing today? That's a a good question to ask somebody in local government, I guess. But um I I appreciate the question and no, I don't think so. I think it takes all of us
coming together and you know from the local rural perspective, right? And and I'm in a rural community. Um I think there's an understanding that the current system is broken and we talk about that a lot. we talk about, you know, the business model is broken, but
also on the on the funding side and and I won't pretend to know what funding is available or isn't available on the federal side, but I will tell you that, you know, the current system, the the CDBG funding with it focus on vouchers, that's fantastic if you have seats. And
in the rural communities, you can have a voucher there. There are vouchers out there, but there are no seats, right? So we have to really focus on the side of this which helps us incentivize the business model to get the seats uh so that they exist so that people can even use the vouchers that are out there. So,
uh, you know, it's not possible to spend our way out of this, but it's going to take a combination of federal spending and federal focus along with state, local governments, and businesses ultimately. And, and I think that's the unique aspect of our model was engaging the businesses in this discussion
because, you know, a reality in a real community, they are competing for workforce and everything they can do to make themselves more competitive with the business down the road, they need to be doing. And we saw that with uh you know nearsight wellness clinics on the health side and that has now spilled
over to the child care side as well. Well, thank you for your answer. The the fact is contrary to the beliefs of those on the other side of the aisle, simply spending more federal tax tax dollars or increasing federal regulations won't solve this issue. And as a
representative of a largely rural district myself, I've also seen firsthand the outsized effects that accessible child care can have on rural communities. And quite frankly, that was one reason I was greatly encouraged by your testimony, mayor, detailing the
actions that you and other community leaders took in Montgomery County, Indiana, to establish a coalition to tackle the problem. So, I want to give you a chance for in the few minutes we have left as legislators, what can we do in our capacity to help communities like
yours meet today's child care challenges at the local level. I think the most important thing is to to create an environment where we can innovate. Uh, every community is different and giving us the flexibility to come up with new solutions like we've
done. Uh, you know, sadly we have at times said we're going to solve this problem. uh on our own because we just realized that that the help's not coming from above, right? And so giving communities the ability to do that and that flexibility is probably the single most important thing you can do. Then
becoming a partner and and looking at the model we've created, uh the model we've created can be applied, you know, more globally across the nation if if we so choose to do, but you have to create the environment that allows that and that doesn't exist in a lot of areas.
And and on that same note, I'll ask from your perspective, conversely, what is Washington doing that could hinder the growth in the child care space? Another good question. Uh, you know, I don't know that I can really answer what
they're doing that's that's hindering it other than, you know, when you create situations where um that wage pressure keeps keeps people out of this workforce, uh, you know, childc care is going to be the first place we're going to see that, right? And so, we have to
find ways to to fill in those gaps and and and address that piece of it. Um, I think the other piece, you know, from the federal side is, uh, you know, the more of these solutions that are driven through state governments, and I'm
speaking totally from the local level here, the more of those solutions that are driven through state governments, the more levels of confusion that that it, you know, develops. So, anything you can do to streamline that process and again give those local governments the flexibility and communities the chance
to innovate and come up with different solutions would be great. Thank you, sir. Miss Sims, real quickly in the few seconds I have left, in your testimony, you mentioned the varying child care preferences parents could have for their kids, including faith-based providers. In your view, what role can faith-based
providers play in increasing access to child care services? Um, I think primarily it's to continue to participate in the program and also I think there's much more we can do to advertise to the faith community that CCDBG is a very unique program. you can
participate in the program and not have to check your faith at the door. And that is a crucial piece of what makes CCDBG such a unique program is that they can fully participate. But often we have put roadblocks up for faith providers and they need to understand that this is
a completely inclusive program for them. And I appreciate that because in the past, the proposals on the other side have tried to force faith-based institutions to choose between operating according to their sincere held beliefs or maintaining access to federal funds. And I think you make an excellent point,
Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Representative Adams of North Carolina is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses uh for being here today and for your testimony. uh after years of working families struggling to afford the cost of child
care, I'm I'm glad to see that this committee has finally decided to hold a meeting uh hearing on this subject because child care is hard to find and it's even harder for working families to afford. Uh this is a crisis and and Congress needs to work tirelessly to
ensure that that our children are cared for. Uh what sort of solutions are Republicans bringing to the table? Well, the Department of Labor cut child care for its employees, and the president isn't requesting any additional funding for Head Start. As my Angelo reminded
us, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. House Democrats are working to make child care more affordable and to ensure that child care workers can make the ends meet. We're introducing legislation as you've heard like the child care for working families
act because we understand that as Marian Wright Elderman said that the future which we hold and trust for our own children will be shaped by our fairness to to other people's children as well. Dr. Freriedman uh child care professionals in a center earn an
average of $33,140 per year and that puts many child care workers in the position of not being able to afford child care for for their children. So can you tell us more about the child care workers in this country and whether uh most of them can can make
ends meet based only on on the money that they make from working in a childare center and and how do these wages impact the child care workforce? Thank you. So a as you said the child care workforce is one of the lowest paid
professions in this country despite the very essential and important work that they do every day for families and for this country. The real problem is that parents um uh can't pay higher fees and
um uh providers can uh barely keep the staff that we have. In talking to providers over the past few years, you know what I heard over and over again is they continue to lose staff to places like fast food or Costco because those
places pay better and have better benefits and unless we address the wages of the child care workforce, we will not have enough child care in this country. Thank you. So because of of low wages, many care workers rely on public assistance in order to survive. And
researchers at at Berkeley estimate that 43% of the childcare workers uh the families rely on some kind of public assistance like SNAP or Medicaid to survive on these insufficient wages. Some of my colleagues across the aisle
might be under the impression that recipients of Medicare or SNAP do not work, but that's just not true. Uh Dr. Freeman, if cuts to Medicaid or SNAP made it pos impossible for ch for childcare workers to make ends meet, what would you expect to happen and
would they be able to keep working? And now if those workers didn't keep working, what would the impact be on child care costs and availability for other families? I think the cuts, the proposed cuts to Medicaid and SNAP are very, very dangerous for the child care
workforce. Um about 30% of childare workers uh count on Medicaid. Um in expansion states, child care workforce is uh has health insurance at four times the rate of states who did not expand.
And so if those cuts go through, you're going to see that the workforce cannot make ends meet and they will lo they will leave their child care jobs for other jobs. Um and as a result we will see the child care supply in this country go down. Thank you ma'am. Uh in
your testimony uh Dr. Freeman you mentioned the department of of government efficiency cuts at the office of child care. So could you provide more details about what those employees did to support the child care development fund and how these firings will impact
the administration of the child care development fund. Absolutely. So, Congress just recently gave the Office of Child Care the resources it needed to support implementation of CCDF. Um, and those staff were doing a variety of
things. One of the things that we heard from states is that um the Office of Childare was not responsive enough quickly with state questions and that we needed more uh timely responses. we needed more timely monitoring so that they knew what they were doing um and
what they could be doing better. Uh in addition, the five offices, regional offices that closed, those experts very closely worked with state agencies to maximize the state flexibility and state dollars. So we lost all of that
expertise and by cutting the staff by 50% everyone has to do another job. You can't do the same job. can't support the program, you can't oversee the program correctly. Right. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. Um, Ms. uh Mrs. Codella Low, uh, we've been talking uh today a lot about how uh about the economic consequences um of uh of parents having to to drop out of the workforce because
of the uh unaffordability of child care. and then uh because you're not in the workforce, you uh become even more unable to afford uh child care and it's this sort of uh vicious uh vicious cycle. Uh conversely, I'd have to imagine it's also true that there are families who actually delay having
children because uh of the uh unaffordability of being able to access care and we know that this is a a general trend in the in this country is delaying having there's a lot of reasons for it, but I have to imagine this is one of them. Is there evidence for that? that this is one of the factors that's causing families to delay like expanding
their family. I I don't know that there I I can't speak to that. Do you have any evidence at this time, Miss Sims? Um I've I've seen some news reports, but I've not read any of the research to validate that one way or another. Yeah. So, it seems that uh the goal is to be able to give people all of the options
they can in order to have to plan their families uh in in the way that they'd like and to balance that with their careers. And so that strikes me as what should be the goal uh when it comes to these issues of affordability. Another uh issue we've touched on repeatedly is the workforce challenges faced by uh
child care providers. Uh and you know we're in this period of of great transition in many industries which is likely to accelerate uh in the next few years with uh advancements in AI and other technology that will likely lead uh to the need for um people to to have
career transitions. uh the childcare industry is probably one that is going to be among the least affected because of the highly human and personal nature of that work. Uh so um is there an opportunity here to have job retraining type programs that will move people into
the childare industry? I'll give that to you as long Sure. And thank you for the question. I will say that personally being a mom of two that child care was is a major factor. Um in affordability of child care is a major factor and in most um urban areas it is extremely
challenging. But um in terms of workforce, this is um I have to say that the bipartisan policy center launched a commission on the American workforce earlier this year. Getting at exactly that we are in a great a moment of great transition. Um and the skills necessary
to take on any job uh is requires a lot of time and attention at a federal level and also at a state and local level. And these are some of the issues that we are tackling right now. thinking about how do you use opportunities to train and
ret retrain workers to put them into or provide opportunities for them to metriculate into jobs that we know the economy will be able to sustain and also sustain them. Great. Yeah, I think this is just a huge opportunity that could really help with a big big element of
this problem. Uh finally, uh Mayor uh Barton, um very uh inspiring to see the work that you've done uh in your community. I'm I'm curious. You mentioned that the center that's been started as a collaboration among the private sector, philanthropy and and the local government. Uh so what is sort of the role of the the business community
here? In that case, they it seems you kind of came together uh around a center that could be used by multiple families. Some employers provide sort of in-house uh services to employees if they're big enough. Uh so how can we really create the right incentives for the business community to help with this problem? Well, this was born out of our annual
visits with those businesses and we repeatedly heard that the the childcare issue was keeping people out of the workforce. Uh there was also the realization that they were willing to invest on the health side with the nearsight wellness clinics. So that was a moment for us to to understand that maybe we could translate that to the child care side. Uh their involvement in
this has been on the on really on the fundraising and the sustainability side. So each of those businesses has committed at different levels for the initial construction and the sustainability model. We sustain our center with ongoing funding. It's not a one-time and that's something we were
very aware of as we created this model. We didn't want to open a center and have it closed two years later because it wasn't sustainable. So, that piece is in there as well. That's the role of the businesses there. In exchange, their employees get priority seating. So, they get to move to the top of the list. Uh,
you know, because sometimes we have more requests than we have seats. Uh, they also get a seat on the governing board that oversees the center. we give them some say in how we operate it. But you know, we we really rely on the professional input of the operator. Uh and then the governing board there is is really looking after the financial side
of it. But businesses have to have a stake in this. They have to be involved and and it's about, you know, their success in our community as an employer being able to attract and retain employees. Um, and you know, as we move forward, uh, there's no single greater
factor for these businesses to succeed than to think about the pipeline for tomorrow. And I think they're investing in what's going to happen in 20 years. Thank you very much. Uh, Representative Asseri of Arizona is recognized. Thank you. Thank you so much to our witnesses
for being here today. Very helpful testimonies. It's no question that the cost of living has gone up much faster than wages over the years. Having one source of income is often extremely unrealistic. So for many families with young children, they have to choose between either a second income or paying
up for child care. I represent Phoenix, Arizona, and in Arizona, the price of center-based child care for two children is over $27,000 annually, according to recent research by Childcare AAR of America. That's higher than the average cost of housing
and completely unrealistic in districts like mine where the average household income is only $87,000 per year and much lower in many parts of the district. Family child care, on the other hand, is significantly less expensive than center-based care. In Arizona, it's
about $10,000 annually per child versus $15,000 for centerbased care. Dr. Freriedman, can you talk about how those two types of care differ and why a parent might choose one over the other and why is family child care important in this sector?
So, as I think all the panelists have said, I think um it is really important that there are a lot of choices in the child care market for families to choose between. And it is a very personal decision where you put your baby while you are at work. And what might feel
right to one parent um feels very different to another. And for some the um smaller size of a family child care feels much more comfortable. For others they really like the structure of a center. And I think it is really
important that our child care policies uh support both um all of these different models so that parents continue to have those choices. I you know one of the reasons family child
care um s is um uh because um uh the person running it usually is doing multiple jobs um and so they're not taking a salary for themselves. Um uh so you know that is not necessarily a
highlight of the model and what we need to be doing is making sure that all of these different childare settings are available for families so they can make those decisions. Thank you. And Mrs. Codella Low, how can Congress help sustain and grow family child care through existing programs or new federal
investments? Yeah, I think that um as the panel has said today, choices are important for for parents as well as affordability, right? Both of these things go hand inand when any parent is looking at a center or or excuse me, an option for
their child, they're looking at a lot of really important factors and um you know, affordability lives in that. The other thing that that Dr. Freriedman just expanded on is that a lot of parents feel really um excited about the
opportunity to be able to go to a neighbor, go to a family child care center. Um and giving the flexibility and allowing for parental choice in all of our methods, right? Like this mixed delivery system is so important to our
ability to provide the necessary care for all Americans. What we have right now in centerbased care does not fit the need. what we have right now in ch in family base doesn't fit the need. What we have in family family, friend, and neighbor. All of these things together um need to be a core component in
thinking about choice and flexibility for parents to make the decisions that make the most sense for them. Thank you. And you know, we know from 2023 to 2024 that the number of licensed family childare homes increased by 4.3%. Again, according to Childcare Aare of America,
this marks the first time in several years that we saw an upward trend in the number of licensed family child care homes. I've also heard concerns that licensing standards, including those that are meant to ensure health and safety of all involved, negatively impact those providers and their ability
to actually provide these child care services. So, Dr. Freriedman, one more question for you. Can you talk a little bit more about this impact? How can policymakers balance the need for health and safety without negatively impacting our child childare providers?
So to be clear, I do not think it is the federal regulations that are causing problems for family child care providers in places. The federal regulations um very much support and promote family child care. I think states um it is
always worth taking a look at regulations and making sure that they are right-sized in particular making sure there are not barriers to business operation that is different than deregulating for child health and safety which um is something that should not happen. One of the conversations I had
with family childcare pro family childcare providers, director of the office of child care is she was going to lose her business because of HOA policies. And that is the type of thing that I do think that states need to be taking a look at and making sure that those barriers are out of the way for family child care so that they can
operate and with investment supply can grow. Thank you so much. I know I'm a little over time. Really appreciate it. I just Mr. Mr. Chair, I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter the following Marshall plan for moms report into the record. It's titled the business case for child care. How parent
focused employee value propositions help companies win the war for talent. Without objection. Thank you. Gentle lady's time is expired. Now recognize gentle lady from Illinois, Congresswoman Miller, for five minutes. Thank you, chairman, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today. Um, I'm
so uh happy that I've been able to be a mom and a grandma and I had the privilege of being able to um between my husband and me have be a caregiver for our own children. And um unfortunately
this has become more of a luxury today and I think young families um are finding themselves in quite a predicament here. They have to find work outside the home to support their growing families, forcing them to secure child care options during the day. Other
families do have to make the difficult decision to forego the extra income so one parent can stay home because child care is simply too expensive. In my district, the median household income is just over $70,000
and child care costs between 8,000 and 10,000 per child. In many cases, the average income can't sustain two children in child care. It's just not feasible. Republicans are working with President Trump to create a more affordable health
child care system, specifically by creating more options for parents to use vouchers. Unfortunately, the Biden Harris administration had a long record of discriminating against faith-based organizations. Many child care agencies
are also local and many parents choose to send their children to these organizations because they have a personal connection. Ultimately, our goal should be to make child care so affordable that parents don't have to decide between caring for their children
or working multiple jobs. So, Mrs. low. In 2021, your organization released a report entitled Examining the Role of Faith-based Child Care. Could you talk more about the importance of faith-based child care and why parents
should have it as a choice? Yeah, and I think what we found is that parents use faith-based providers often. We know that they are part of a a working mixed delivery system. Um, and I think that that is, you know, the crux of the report shows that parents are making
choices, making choices that work best for them and for their families. And um, we also know that access, affordability, reliability, high quality are all factors that parents are looking at in order to uh, make these decisions. Um
and faith-based providers uh only add to a mixed delivery system that we know is necessary to provide the seats for um the kids that need spots. Absolutely. And I'm a firm believer that competition drives quality up and prices down. So,
Miss Sims, could you explain how applying this principle to child care will benefit parents, children, and local economies? Well, I mean, I think just choice in general is always, you know, a good driver towards competition and choice because if I can't find it
here, I will go look elsewhere. Um, you know, the faith-based providers are there, family childcare providers there. I think with everyone though, as we've talked about, it's all looking at how do we support like all of these boats to float and to support them and that we're not prejudicing one over the other. And
that's going to be a variety um a variety of techniques that we we look at, right? And and children are unique, families are unique, and I think it was a shame that um faith-based child care was discriminated against. So, Mayor
Barton and my my district is quite rural, much like your town of Crawford'sville. We're kind of close, actually. What's your message to policymakers who underestimate the economic consequences of ignoring rural child care access?
Well, we are in a battle for population in a battle for population to maintain our work force that is the tax base for these rural communities. Uh whether that's agriculture, manufacturing, whatever it might be. Uh and without the child care piece, rural America starts to suffer and and we are already going
through that. We have been in my community for a number of years. I think we've turned the corner. Uh but it has a profound economic impact and the data has shown that time and time again. Uh you lose you lose business, you lose industry, you lose productivity and then
ultimately you lose, you know, spending power in your community and your tax base. And so it's a vicious cycle once you start down that path. As I said earlier, it's all about the economies of scale and rural communities are such at such a disadvantage when it comes to standing up child care providers or
centers um that we really struggle, right? And rural communities are a wonderful place to raise children. I so enjoyed your biography and I appreciate that you're a problem solver and you're looking outside the box and doing great things in your community. Thank you so much.
And I yield back. Representative Hayes of Connecticut is recognized. Thank you. Good morning and thank you to our witnesses for testifying today. Access to child care is essential for parents to get an education or to enter the workforce. The child care industry
was dramatically impacted by the pandemic. As we all know, between February 2020 and April 2020, the number of employees in child care centers abruptly dropped from just over 1 million workers to around 670,000.
Democrats tried to shield the industry from the worst economic impacts, including a supplemental injection of 15 billion in discretionary dollars into the child care and development fund and 24 billion for child care stabilization grants, which allowed childcare
providers to stay afloat. When we were debating the bill back better reconciliation package, I was someone who strongly supported the expansion of universal prek and child care was central to that conversation. Addressing the high cost of child care has consistently been a top priority to for
me. I introduced the Prospect Act which expanded child care in community colleges and brought back CPF funds to my district for childcare incubators to develop and train uh business owners. So addressing this issue is something that
I've tried to approach from every angle. But today I want to talk about some of those grants. According to an article published in the New Republic, the top 11 chains, much almost all of which are backed by private equity or publicly traded, serve only about 12% of the 7.5
million children who attend child who attend center-based uh care centers every day. As we know, these firms have an obligation to their stakeholders and have to generate revenue. For example, disclosures revealed that between 2012 and 2017, Kinderare, which is one
example, closed 380 quote underperforming centers to increase revenue and enrollment at its remaining centers. For this reason, I believe that additional investments in the private child care sector must come with some type of guard rails. Dr. Freriedman, why
is it important that these centers which are often labeled underperforming in terms of revenue are located in lowincome neighborhoods? So, I think we are just beginning to understand um what this type of uh
for-profit program um how it is operating in um various communities. states are some states are trying to look at some guard rails. I think there are concerns um that a program might be answering to
stakeholders instead of to families and what that might mean for the services that they are delivering. Um so I think states are beginning to experiment with those guard rails that you are speaking of and I I think uh there are important lessons to be learned there. And how
does consolidation within the market impact the availability of child care slots in these communities? I I think we see quite clearly that what we need to be doing across this country in every single community is growing the supply and anything that is reducing the supply
takes us further away from what families need. Thank you. In 2024, the Biden administration finalized a rule to update the Child Care and Development Fund, CCDF, those regulations, and support childcare quality and accessibility in communities all across
the country. The biggest changes in the final rule included capping family co-ayments at 77 7% of family income, but allowing states to eliminate co-ayments for more families, improving payment practices by ensuring providers are paid upfront, requiring states and
territories to provide at least some child care services through grants or contracts, and streamlining family eligibility. Dr. Freeman, what would repealing the 2024 rule mean for most child care operations during this crisis? So, repealing that rule is going
to mean less stable child care operations, which is going to mean a less supply, which means less availability for child care. It's also going to mean increased prices for parents. It would be a tragic mistake to repeal that rule. Thank you. I I know
we've heard a lot about parents having a choice in child care and I think that's absolutely what we want but I know personally that that for many of those parents that choice comes down to quality and affordability and that is the biggest thing that we need to
address. I think that availability of more locations, whether they be private centers, community- based, family- based, whatever, if there are available slots and that they have um have have the avail ability to pay for
that care because no parent wants to think that they are compromising care for their child because they had to opt up opt for something just because of the cost. And with that, I yield back. The chairman of the full committee, Representative Wahberg of Michigan, is
recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the panel for being here. Um, this this is this is a crucial crucial topic. This is this is not this is not the same issue as when I was a boy back in the last century. Um, this is
something that is extremely important for all that we do in education as well as in the workforce. And so thank you for your your written testimonies that were are very helpful. Um Mrs. uh Codelo
you know in in times now that we you know are seriously looking here in this Congress with the debt increasing debt deficits that are going on. It it it forced us to consider everything in light of that.
So I guess I'd ask the question, how can taxpayer funds at the federal level be mu used more effectively, not just more extensively uh to promote innovative child care solutions? Yeah, and thank you for the question.
Um, I think that one thing that I think every single panel stated, every single panelist stated and every member stated was how important child care is to our economic infrastructure and thinking about child care is a real uh uh
economic mobility. And um you know of course any mo any in investment of funds requires the need for us to think about these efficiently and think about how we can create innovative solutions. I think, you know, even sitting next to
Mayor Barton here, who has looked at a problem in his city and figured out a way to braid funding both from the federal, from the state, and from the local level to create a sustainable solution for his community and to really meet the need of his workforce is a
great example and one that is unique to Crawford'sville, but is not unique to the United States. There are so many examples in states like Michigan, the TriShare program that exists where they are braiding, they are finding opportunities to braid funding and
create not only access but affordability for um for kids. So giving more opportunity, flexibility to the locals. Exactly. Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. Um, Miss Hartman Sims, do you believe the current child care landscape offers
sufficient room for parental choice, which is big in my book? Um, and if not, how can policy improve that in the area of parental choice? Um, at the federal level, the childcare development block grant is incredibly inclusive of a
variety of providers, as I mentioned earlier, including faith-based providers who do not have to check their faith um, at the door. I think the area we need to be most cautious of unlimiting choice and this is much this is really this is a state issue the expansion of universal
prek which can sound lovely in concept what a lot of the states are doing is limiting choice. They are pulling threes and fours out of this mixed delivery system um that is inclusive of family child care and homes and faith-based providers and all of that and pulling
them into a public school setting without the option of that parent having that choice. The other issue with that with universal prek is by pulling threes and fours out of community settings, we are disrupting and actually making infant and toddler care more expensive
for parents versus less expensive. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Um, Mayor Barton, we'll move on from our discussion about motocross of nations and uh, get on to this issue here, though I'd love to discuss more. Crawford'sville has
successfully collaborated with philanthropy, local and state government resources and businesses as well. Very creative. How were you able to solicit this type of multifaceted commitment? You know, the first step was getting everyone to understand that this was a
significant problem and the data showed that and once that data was available, I think we had everyone's attention. Um, you know, the second piece was, you know, for everyone to understand they had a they had a stake in this and they had something to lose if we don't solve this. Businesses had something to lose.
Uh, philanthropy, you know, if you don't spend on early childhood education, you know, spends, you know, many times more dollars down the road trying to solve problems with our young people. Uh so really convincing everybody uh that they had stake in this and that that you know there was a cost for them if we didn't
do something and that they would be money ahead to address this early. Um so I think it's putting all that together and getting that buy in and then ultimately you know I think what we've done so well in our community is we come together collaboratively. It's it's bipartisan. It reaches across every
sector of our community to really address these things. And as I tell everybody when we get involved in this, uh, you absolutely have to check your ego at the door and and we require that and we work under that concept and it it gets us there. If you could send us information on how to do that, we'd love
that. Back the ranking member of the full committee, Representative Scott. Oh, I stand corrected. We're going to go to uh Representative Thompson of Pennsylvania, who will now have five minutes. All right, chairman. Thank you. And uh thank you you and the ranking
member for this uh uh hearing. Thanks to all the witnesses that are here. Incredibly important um um topic. Uh Mayor Barton proud to welcome a fellow former firefighter to the uh to
the dis. Uh um I'm not surprised at your leadership skills um having uh that shared value and experience. Um the rural areas share a level playing field with urban areas in terms of addressing
child care needs. What are some of the pronounced differences? Well, I obviously can't speak to the urban, you know, situation, but I will tell you from the rural perspective, uh we have a couple of challenges. And the first I touched on earlier, which is the economies of scale. Uh as I mentioned in my written testimony, I initially
thought this would be a pretty easy problem to solve. We'll just recruit child care providers to come to our community. and you quickly discover the numbers just aren't there. So that's that's probably the big thing that we face. I think the other reality is that for most rural communities um we don't
have the resources to pursue all of the funding options and we've talked a lot about grant funding and different types of funding. Uh you have to have the the human resources and the time and the ability to seek that out and successfully apply and then administer it if you're successful. So real
communities don't always have that. they often just leave it alone and they don't even pursue those funding options. So both of those things work really against us uh in the rural communities and and I think to the large extent we feel like we have to solve this alone because we're kind of forgotten out there. Well,
as someone who represents a third of land mass of Pennsylvania, very rural counties, uh 18 counties, um I mean, uh I think transportation uh for parents to to get to child care is is is an issue as well. Is the child care the direction
of where the work setting is? Uh um just the math uh of various rural areas um you know, is there enough? I mean, there's there's kids that we need child care for, but is there enough kids for someone in order to be able to form a to
successfully and financially, you know, put together um a child care uh operation that works as well? I think those are also things in in very rural areas that we that we obviously face as well. Can you speak to the link between child care access and population
retention or growth in rural communities like yours? You did that a little bit. if you want to just expound on that a little bit because we I mean we all you know we're always those of us from rural America we want to be able to to grow our population right to stop that export of of young people and u yeah and what
role does child care play in that well you know I've said it several times today but we are in a battle for population and what we've seen in in Indiana at least is we see people moving from the more rural areas to the the urban areas and there are several factors I think involved in their decision to do so uh But the reality is
we're an industrial community. We're a manufacturing community. And to meet the workforce needs of my current employers, I have to grow the population at least modestly. And if I'm going to meet the needs of future employers, I have to add even additional growth there. So I need to do two things. I need to attract new
residents and most importantly, I need to retain the next generation. We spend a lot of time in our community talking about that. And if you want 20some year olds starting careers and starting families in your community, child care is absolutely at the top of the list of
needs in your community. Yeah. Child care, uh, rural broadband, uh, housing. I mean, because you need that workforce to to be able to grow businesses and attract new ones. Miss Sims, what are some examples where federal rules or mandates have actually made it harder
for families to access care, particularly rural families? um there within like the the programs that are under your committee's purview. I don't think there are is as others have said the CCDBG program is predominantly a state administered and
locally implemented program. Um there are things in rural America um that have been problematic. It is my understanding I am not an agg um expert but there are some rules within USDA um home loans which is a predominant lender of home
lending um in rural America that you're not allowed to have a business inside have a USA rule home or mortgage if you're operating a business within that home which if you're a family child care home you're invariably operating a business and there has been legislation
in past Congress has introduced um to uh have USDA undo that rule rule. I know that's not this committee's jurisdiction, but I I definitely think I've heard that in rural America. That is something that needs to be looked at. Well, as chairman of the House Agriculture Committee, I will take that back and look at that. That there are a
few archaic things I have found similar to that that we're trying to fix with this next farm bill. Chairman, thank you so much. Thanks very much. Representative Owens of Utah is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I u for holding this hearing. I want to thank the
witness for coming to testify on how uh access to affordable child care is uh giving parents the flexibility they need to participate in the workforce. For several years, I've been a champion of the child care and development block grant and the flexibility that it provides. I look forward to speaking uh
to our witnesses and understanding how better to leverage our policy and support our parents and children. Um uh Mrs. Kotel Low um uh we have acknowledged there's a nationwide deficit in the workforce. uh uh participation based on your research. Uh
what's at stake for local economies and workforce participation when child care is unavailable uh or unaffordable? I'm sure you probably answered that already, but I wouldn't mind if you wouldn't just extend yourself. No, absolutely. Um I think you know there is a lot at stake when we don't have access uh to
affordable, reliable, highquality child care. But you know the the things that come to mind are redu reduction in workforce participation, loss of income, business disruptions and I think this is something that um has really rippled
through the system in the last couple of years. Certainly um previous to to my role at BPC, I worked at the US Chamber of Commerce Foundation and spent a lot of time on childcare issues there. And previous to the pandemic, you didn't hear a lot of um business, you know, leaders talk about child care as an
issue that they were thinking about. And then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and we were talking about child care often. And so business disruptions are are real. Um decreased tax revenue in uh in every single city, but certainly also
in states. And then um I think as Mayor Barton has also alluded to a real um disproportionate rural impact associated. Okay. Thank you so much. U Mayor Barton, uh what is uh what was your catalyst for engaging businesses to help solve the child care problem in
Carerville? Well, they were the first to illuminate the problem for us. They were the first to bring this to our attention. We were hearing this every year in our meetings with them. uh and then you know as the data became available that I think was able to uh really bring it to the forefront of the conversation uh and
then really bringing them in as part of the solution uh was centered upon those earlier conversations about the problem. So it's much easier to walk in the door with a proposed solution and ask for assistance when they have been telling you year after year that a problem exists. Uh so it's really through what I
call our business retention and expansion program which we focus on uh you know great deal in our community. We visit every business annually. We visit their corporate headquarters which are generally located in other cities uh every two to three years and it's
through those candid conversations where they really share what's working in our community and what's not working in our community and where they're seeing issues and that really opened the door for this discussion and eventual solution. Yeah, this is something I think nationwide we're seeing this workforce deficit. So, this is such a great
conversation to have. U Miss Miss Sims, how can federal child care policy ensure parental choice without picking winners or losing losers among providers? Um, sure. So I think the the current uh childcare involvement block grant program the federal tax credits as they
are currently done do not discriminate based on type of provider faith-based for-profit nonprofit you know family um centerbased um I think you know places you want to be concerned and I you know there's I can um Miss Freriedman and I have known each other for a number of
years in their time that we're going to agree and a lot of times sometimes we don't you know we would disagree. I am concerned about a provision that was included in the CCDF regulations requiring states to use some portion um on grants or contracts. Um it you know I
understand trying to deal with the u lack of care in other you know in some areas but when government is going into a grant or contract versus a voucher or certificate to parents it inevitably sends tends to uh prioritize one type of
private pro provider over another. And I think you know since CCDBG has been in existence um it has always been about parent choice and I am concerned about that provision in the current pro current final regulations that I believe will limit choice not um increase choice. Okay, we'll make sure we take a
good look at that because choice is really what it's all about. Parents choice. So thank you so much. What a it's a timely conversation and looking forward to being part of the solution. So thank you so much and chairman I yield back. Thank you very much. Ranking member Scott is now recognized. Thank you Mr. Chairman, um, Mayor Barton, uh,
you had a lot of success in expanding capacity. You said 30% increase. I think one of the successes was Camp Milligan. Can you tell us a little bit about that? The age of the children, how many children were in the program, and how much it costs?
Yeah, so Camp Milligan is a summer day camp. And one of the things that we had noticed is that we were dealing with the early learning piece of this, the preschool type uh you know piece of this and and we really realized at some point that uh we had a big issue with school
age children in the summer and on breaks and so we started Camp Milligan to help address that. Uh we've also helped support other programs in our community. And you're talking about those children that, you know, aren't able to care for themselves safely, but still need care in the summer and are out of school. Um
Camp Milligan is a combination uh funding from the city, our McGomery County Community Foundation. We operate it through our parks and recck department. Uh they have since expanded. We have a program over winter break, over Christmas break, uh to help with child care then for school age children.
So, it's really pulling all that together to create that while in addition, we are supporting other programs such as the Boys and Girls Club. How much did it cost? Uh, I don't have those numbers in front of me. I would say, you know, probably in the neighborhood of about $10,000 for the
summer. It's it's pretty affordable. Uh, we're paying the staff. How many students? Uh, I don't have the numbers in front of me. I'm going to guess probably about 40 students. Okay. Um, did the city appropriate any money for other child care programs?
What we've done is participate in the hiring of the early learning director to support the other programs. Uh, so that director is out there every day helping them with the business model, with personnel matters, with regulatory issues and so on. We participate in that
through the McGomery County Community Foundation. So, no direct funding has not gone to any other providers, just channeled through the foundation. Does the community foundation put money into it? Yes, they do. Okay. U Dr. Freeman, we've heard a lot about
the um faith-based organizations. My understanding that faith-based providers have always been a major participant in child care programs, including Head Start and CCDBG.
Um, is that true? That's absolutely true. Um, so when you talk about them not participating or being borrowed, that's that's just not true. That's simply false. Okay. Um, can you tell us why subsidies are necessary for child
care to be affordable? Subsidies are uh necessary because the math does not work in child care. uh parents cannot cover what providers actually need to pay their staff. And so if there are not is there is not child care assistance uh we
are never going to have the child care we need in this country. And if for infants the ratio of teachers to students is 4 to one. So essentially each student has to support a fourth of the teacher salary before you get to the
other expenses. That's right. So states set um uh teacher child ratios not the federal government. Many states set it at 1 to4 and infant care is more expensive because inherently it is more labor intensive and and and you can't get away
from that. Absolutely should not want to get away from that. We've heard a lot about deregulation. What happens to safety if child care is deregulated? So health and safety regulations are extremely important. Um uh children need
a lot of care and attention and um parents do not want their children warehoused by untrained individuals. And what happens if they if you don't have those regulations? What happens to the children? You will have more safety
incidents. Children will be less safe. Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you very much. The ranking member is now uh recognized for a closing statement. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um and and thank you to the witnesses. I think this is an an excellent discussion
and and a place where we all acknowledge that there is a challenge. Uh we all agree uh Mr. Chairman and and and colleagues that parental choice is important. There is no question here that Democrats are pro-choice. Um as we heard today, uh families across the
country are struggling to find highquality affordable child care. This is not a new challenge or a new problem. Uh think back to the pandemic. Uh brings back a lot of bad memories, but during the first eight months of the pandemic alone, 166,000 child care jobs were
simply lost across the country. Childcare employment is now slightly above prepandemic levels, which is great. But we know that the child care crisis still remains as families struggle to find and afford care. It's acutely felt by families and is growing
more urgent by the day. And it's not just families. As we heard in the testimony, they're not just families feeling the impact. As child care workers who are overwhelmingly women, women of color, and immigrants, they make poverty level wages. And the US
economy loses 122 billion dollar every year as a direct result of the scarcity of affordable childare. And as Dr. Freriedman testified, "There simply is no market solution. We know that without robust federal investment, the cost of care will keep rising and workers who
provide the essential care will continue to be among the lowest paid workers." These are the same caregivers who help shape the future of our children. They deserve better and until wages are increased, the re recruitment and retention challenges will remain.
Unfortunately, instead of addressing this crisis directly, many congressional Republican proposals combined with the harmful policies from the Trump administration are going to make things worse. Since the beginning of the year, Head Start, in particular, has faced numerous challenges from being unable to
use federal funds, the closure of five of the 12 Head Start regional offices that provide crucial support to programs across the country. These actions have made life more challengings with challenging for families with young children and I note that anybody who's ever been in a Head Start program knows
that they also involve families. It is a very good investment. I also want to note Mrs. Codella Low recommended improving data collection. I think that would be wonderful but unfortunately the Trump administration and the Department of Labor are trying to eliminate completely eliminate the Women's Bureau
at the Department of Labor where they do the data collection. the national database of childare prices. That is critical information that we need. So some colleagues have uh turned to deregulation as a solution. As we just heard, that is not an answer. Plus, importantly, research shows that there
is no correlation between state regulation and childcare supply. We even have bipartisan support for strong standards in child care settings. I'm a mom. This is important. The last child care and development block grant uh reauthorization included updated health
and safety standards for childcare centers. We need to continue focusing on what we know works. Increasing investment in child care is the key to building quality child care supply and improving uh affordability. We should take action. I'm glad that we talked
about this, but we should take action uh about the need for greater investments. For years, we've had bipartisan support for funding the childcare and development block grant at 12.4 billion. Yet, Congress has not funded the program at this level. Congress must also pass
legislation, for example, the Childare for Working Families Act that would cap child care costs for working families at 7% of income and make the investments we need. I also want to note that there are other policies that would address this issue, like joining the rest of the world and offering paid family leave.
when we hear the statistics about the in the the additional cost for infant care and look at the numbers I don't have the exact numbers but the number of women who go back to work within weeks of having a child not because they want to or feel up to it because they have to uh
the rest of the world offers paid family leave that makes a tremendous difference also I have a a bill called build housing with care act that would give grants to affordable housing so you could build the child care center at the affordable housing again reducing costs
and stress for families. So there's a lot of policies we could look at uh to address this uh this this challenge. We have the opportunity and we have the responsibility to act for families, for children, for workers and for the economy. The time to invest in child
care is now. Thank you again for the excellent discussion and I yield back. Thanks very much. Uh thank you very much to the witnesses uh for your compelling testimony. Uh I think that we uh can all agree that the ability to start your family and pursue your career on your
own terms uh are is central uh to the American dream. Uh but because of the cost of child care and uh limited accessibility uh too many parents are faced with wrenching dilemmas and to the extent that we can find solutions that
will ease those dilemmas uh will therefore make the American dream more of a reality uh for for more families. Um and at the same time, as we've heard throughout today's testimony, this is an issue that is uh very much connected to the success of local economies and our
broader uh national economy. Miss uh Mrs. Codell Lo used the term essential infrastructure to describe childcare, which at first glance, you don't really think of child care the same way I think about roads or power lines or something like that. uh but I think that it actually is an apt term because uh it's
just as foundational uh in a sense to being able to have a functioning and and flourishing economy. So I think a few takeaways from today's hearing based on all the questions and the testimony from the witnesses are number one that choice and flexibility must remain uh the central pillars of the system. This
mixed delivery uh model that Ms. uh Sims talked about uh and in a similar vein, federal support uh ought to give local communities and governments flexibility uh in terms of what form that support takes. Uh as Mayor Barton has testified,
for example, uh a rural community like his may not have the same economy of scale uh to support the same options uh as as an as a uh as an urban community. Um we also discussed the workforce challenges that are faced by child care providers and there may be room here for
things like licensing reform, credentiing reform uh and uh certainly uh with economic dislocations affecting uh some sectors uh in the years ahead. I think there will be an opportunity to utilize job retraining as well uh to assist with recruitment uh for that
sector. I think that we also have uh come to some agreement that the solutions here really need to be multiaceted uh and draw uh upon support from uh from local communities from uh state governments from philanthropy and from the business community. I think in
many cases the business community uh is very much interested in collaborating uh in finding solutions in order to allow uh their their employees to b balance work uh and family life. And then finally, I think it's really important that uh that this be an issue we appro approach from a bipartisan perspective.
Uh this affects millions and millions of families, doesn't matter uh their political views, and I think there really is a lot of common ground here. So, I look forward to working with uh my colleagues on on both sides of the aisle to find solutions uh the rest of this Congress. Thanks very much. With there being no further business, the
subcommittee stands adjourned. Part: 2
on the committee on natural resources subcommittee on oversight and investigations uh and the subcommittee on higher education and workforce development will come to order. Without objection, the chair has are authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time.
The subcommittees are meeting today to hear testimony on enhancing educational outcomes in Indian country post-secondary education at the Bureau of Indian Education. Under House Natural Resources Committee Rule 4f, any open oral opening
statements are are limited to the chairman and ranking member. for the purpose of this joint hearing that will also be extended to the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee on higher education workforce development of the committee on education and workforce as well as the full committee chair and ranking member of each
committee. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all the other members statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with house natural resources committee rule 30 without objection so ordered. I ask I
ask unanimous consent that the following members be allowed to sit and participate in today's hearing. The gentleman from California, Mr. Lalfa, gentleman from Kansas, Mr. Man. Gentleman from Montana, Mr. Dowling. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement. Good morning everyone. Glad to see it's one of those BA beautiful days. I would like to once again thank the House Committee on Education and Workforce Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development for
being here today for this joint hearing. I'd also like to thank our witness, Mr. Scott Davis, who himself is a Haskell alumni for joining us. Thank you very much. Last year, our subcommittee convened a historic joint hearing following numerous reports of wrongdoing at
Haskell Indian Nations University. That hearing served as an opportunity for both sides of the aisle to come together and agree that there more had to be done to better serve the students of Haskell and all tribal schools. Quite frankly, as Congress and a nation, we
must have a trust responsibility. We have a trust responsibility to our tribal nations that cannot be pushed aside. With the Trump administration, we are in a new chapter. And in today's hearing, we will discuss how we can better serve our tribal students with a particular focus on post-secondary
education. Today's hearing will not just focus on Haskell. The Bureau of Indian Education or BIE runs another postsecondary institution. The Southwest Indian Polytechnic Institute, also known as Sippy.
Both schools face a range of serious issues on their campuses, including criminal misconduct, below average graduation rates, large deferred maintenance backlogs, and more. Our tribal students deserve better. Both institutions have suffered from leadership and management issues. For
example, there have been multiple instances of HASLL failing to complete the length legally required background checks for their staff. According to a former HA hasll president, at least three board members, boards of regent members failed their background checks, one of whom was a convicted felon. In
January of this year, an ex Haskell board of regents member was banished from his tribe after pleading guilty to serious felonies, including attempted homicide, among other crimes. School also lost its ninth president in eight years this May. A change in leadership that aligned with the change
in accreditation in the spring. This subcommittee held a hearing in February highlighting how BIE is unable to effectively manage deferred maintenance at their elementary and post-secondary schools. This issue is seen across campuses both hasll and sippy.
In 2021, the Bureau of Indian Affairs Office of Facilities Property and Safety Management released a faculty condition index for the BIE schools which found that Haskell and Cippy's campuses are in poor condition due to the deferred maintenance backlog. A 2023 faculty
condition assessment of Haskell found that 27 of the school's 36 buildings were in severe condition and in need of immediately immediate replacement. At the start of the 2024 20 2025 academic year, Hassel turned away newly enrolled students because they lack the necessary
housing for them to stay on campus. Cippy has indicated their poor campus conditions are to blame for the declining enrollment. In addition to poor facilities, both schools have low graduation rates and issues with their academic accreditation. In 2023, CYP's
graduation rate was a mere 9%. Wow. Earlier this year, the higher learning commission changed has accreditation rating to continued accreditation with monitoring. This indicates concerns regarding the institution's compliance with accreditation requirements. Back in
2010, Cippy lost their accreditation due to testing and record keeping issues. But their accreditation status was returned in 2014 and reaffirmed in 2018. While this indicates an improvement for Sippy, anything other than full accreditation for our university run by
federal employees is inexcusable. Beyond the leadership, on May 5th, 2025, the Office of the Inspector General released a summary of an investigation which found that a BIE employee sexually harassed student athletes on the Haskell women's basketball team. According to the report, the employee made cruel
jokes and sexual comments and had non-con consensual contact with the student. This behavior deterred some student athletes from going to the athletic training room to receive treatment. And that employees supervisor and other staff knew about it and failed to report
it. Worse yet, this employee had to be investigated by BIE had been investigated by BAI decade before for similar complaints from an intern who was working at Haskell while attending the University of Kansas. It's past time for real and longlasting changes at
these schools. Despite all despite of all the known issues at Haskell City, which have gone on for far too long, I believe that everyone in this room feels that the tribal students deserve better. I look forward to working with my colleagues as well as the Trump administration and Secretary Bergam to
put tribal students first and ensure that we can not only fulfill these trust responsibilities but also empower these institutions with the input of tribes to be the best versions of themselves. Thank you. I now recognize ranking member Dexter for her opening statement.
Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Davis, for joining us today. I also want to welcome my colleagues from the educational and the workforce committee subcommittee on higher education and workforce development and thank them for their ongoing leadership on this topic.
Tribal colleges advance tribal sovereignty and self-determination while providing culturally competent education for native students. We have a treatymandated obligation to support these institutions and ensure that meaningful effort and investment is
being made to offer exceptional learning opportunities. The Bureau of Indian Education operates two post-secondary schools as you have heard Haskell Indian Nations University and Southwestern Indian Polytenic Institute known as from here on in um or also already known.
They are cornerstones of tribal education and represent an important pathway for native students from all over the country. In fact, each of us here on the dis probably represent alumni of Haskell and Cippi. At this subcommittee's recent hearing on tribal
K12 education exposed the dire state of infrastructure needs at tribal schools. School residential halls, classrooms, and campus facilities have crumbling infrastructure, aging sewer and HVAC systems, and extensive weather damage.
Underfunding has been identified as a major problem, not the only problem, but certainly the biggest one. The same is true for post-secondary institutions. Haskell alone faces a $90 million maintenance backlog. And the biggest
driver of this crisis is clear. chronic systemic underfunding. Now, the Trump administration is proposed to make a bad situation much worse. Trump's budget would cut BIE education construction funding by 80% and cut tribal post-secondary programs
by 90%. That's on top of reckless staffing cuts from halfhazard doge firings and buyouts. These are not just budget decisions. They are attacks on tribal education and together they could cause irre irreparable damage to the very institutions we are supposed to be
here to support. It is pointless to have a discussion today about whether BIE is adequately tracking its building maintenance if there's no money and no staff to do the tracking. At the same time, I am encouraged by this committee's ongoing bipartisan
investigation into Haskell suggesting that both sides care enough to protect it. I hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will work with me on a letter to appropriators asking for the funding to keep the school intact while we pursue real reform. Because Haskell
students deserve better incidents including sexual harassment, bullying, retaliation, and other symptoms of institutional failure rest at the feet of all levels of leadership. Just last month, the Haskell president resigned abruptly after a routine but extensive
accreditation process. I am grateful for the leadership of my colleague, Representative Emily Randall, for securing a commitment during the reconciliation markup for this committee to work with the Government Accountability Office in a bipartisan way to provide guidance on the reforms
we should consider at Haskell. It's also important to note that tribes in Kansas appear to be coalesing behind a proposal to remove BIE from Haskell's operation. We must listen to tribal communities if we hope to serve Haskell students. I
hope we can have that conversation soon because I am concerned that the proposal could make Haskell mo more vulnerable, not less. Yet another proposal could make Haskell and Cippy more vulner vulnerable is the reauthoration reauthorization of the Great American
Outdoors Act or goa sorry. When it was signed into law in 2020, it provided $95 million for BIE run schools. Haskell and Cippy were eligible to get some of their that funding, though they did not receive any. If Haskell and Cippy lose
foundational funding because of the budget cuts proposed by Republicans, the GOA funding will be crucial. When this committee reauthor reauthorizes Goa, tribal schools must continue to remain
eligible for those funds. As we consider various reforms at BIE schools, I hope we can center our trust and treaty obligations. We can't fix a problem caused mostly by underfunding by acceleration of underfunding.
I know my colleagues on the other side of the aisle care about Haskell and Cippy and I'm grateful we can work together on this. There's a lot we agree on. None of it will matter if Haskell takes a 90% budget cut or its federal funding is eliminated entirely. Thank
you, Mr. Chair. I yield back. I thank the ranking member. Um, I also want to wave the gentle lady from New Mexico, Miss Stanbury, the gentle lady from Washington and Miss Randall, and the gentleman from California, Mr. Gray, onto the committee. Without objection,
store ordered. I now want to recognize the subcommittee on higher education and workforce development chairman, Mr. Owens, for his opening testimony. Thank you, uh, Chair Gozer, and um, good morning everyone. As chairman of the higher education workforce subcommittee,
it is my privilege to join you and others in hosting this very important hearing. One that in which we'll hear about the status of the postsecondary education provided by BIE for Native Americans. I look forward to u hearing our witness of Mr. Scott Davis uh
currently carrying out the duties of the assistant secretary of bureau of Indian affairs. This a little bit a little close. Okay. All right. Almost one year ago, in another joint hearing by these subcommittees, we heard about the dysfunction of BIE,
mismanagement, fraud, nepotism, the failure to investigate complaints, a failure to address sexual harassment, and a longtime failure to exercise proper oversight of the Haskell Indian Nations University. In addition to these failures, we're again going to discuss as in the past inability of BIE to
properly steward its buildings and campuses in educating Native American students. is not just stewardship of property. There's also reoccurring instances of sexual harassment at Haskell Indian Nations University that is particularly troubling and the lack of strong response by its leaders. And
it doesn't stop there. More broadly, BIE has failed to meet the mark has failed to create and instill in a culture of accountability in the bureau and its schools. Southwestern Indian Politics Institute is similar. Senior officials there have also demonstrated a lack of
leadership. A 2018 sexual harassment investigation by the inspector general revealed that neither BIE nor Southwest had a policy prohibiting sexual relationship between faculty and students. Uh obviously that leaves a lot
of Native American females at risk. All these incidents are problematic and we need solutions. I'm hopeful for the uh that the testimony of Mrs. Davis will include solutions that will get BIE Haskell and Southwestern on the path to
long-term success. Our students deserve no less. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back. I thank the gentleman from Utah. I now recognize the subcommittee on higher education workforce development, ranking member Adams for her opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh I'd also
like to thank Chairman Gosar and Ranking Member Dexter uh as well as the witness uh for being here today. Last summer, we held a similar joint hearing regarding post-secary education under the Bureau of Indian Education. That hearing
primarily focused on Haskell University. And so I'm grateful for the opportunity to revisit that issue. Uh let me begin by acknowledging the United States shameful history of mistreating and forcibly assimilating native people. Our
country has spent many decades and worked across many administrations in an attempt to rectify a fraction of these injustices and to do what we can to improve the lives of of native people uh today by ensuring educational and
economic opportunity in these communities. Haskell Indian Nations University and Southwestern univer Indian Poly Techch University uh represent among other things a promise on behalf of Congress to indigenous
communities across the country. For example, through title three of the higher education act of 1965, Congress committed to supporting quality tribal colleges and universities. Uh these tribal colleges were meant to be
safe spaces for native students to receive a quality affordable education while embracing and uplifting their culture. That's a vision worth striving for and that goal should be the focal point of our conversations today.
Unfortunately, the US government has consistently fallen short of this goal and has never fully kept its promise to appropriately fund these schools. Over the years, these schools have gone neglected and underfunded.
A and one impact of this treatment has been the infrastructure challenges and the maintenance backlogs that these schools have experienced. Without additional resources, these schools cannot address issues facing their physical structures such as leaking
roofs and plumbing issues, uh, electrical issues, and other infrastructure problems. And unfortunately, these are not the only problems we've heard of at Haskell University. We've heard of instances of abuse, corruption, scandal, all of which
limit students ability to learn safely and succeed. Specifically, we've heard allegations of the Bureau of Indian Education itself failed to provide leadership, transparency, accountability, and management despite
reports of a hostile campus environment riff with with issues such as academic fraud, nepotism, and tragically in some cases sexual misconduct and abuse. In fact, in May, the Department of Interior's Office of Inspector General
found that B.IE employees sexually harass student athletes on on then women's basketball team. The students and faculty of these schools deserve better, and the native communities that they serve deserve to have the promise of opportunity fulfilled. The answer to
these issues is not to abandon High School and its community. It's critical that this school along with Cippy and and their students get the support that they need. And this includes providing support and funding so that they can too
live up to the standards that their communities deserve. And this is why we need the administration to take steps to to help these schools. However, from what we've seen so far, they've done the opposite. In February, the Trump
administration fired a significant number of staff members from the Bureau of Indian Education. Some of them working at Haskell and Cippi only to be forced to rehire them. And so, let me be clear, these firings accomplished
nothing uh but to add instability and uncertainty to these schools. Further, the administration's FY26 funding request did not indicate any intent to increase support at these schools through the Bureau of Indian Education's
budget. In fact, the president's budget request was to cut funding by almost 90%. So, in light of all of this, at this hearing, I would like to hear how the Trump administration plans to provide support for these institutions
and to help make improvements where needed. Congress has a responsibility to ensure that the students at these schools receive a high quality education and a safe environment that's conducive to celebrating and uplifting nature na
native culture. As a 40-year retired professor, I believe that student success is important. Far too long, the federal government has neglected that duty, and it's time to write past wrongs, get these schools back on track
for the sake of the next generation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. I thank the gentle lady for her comments. I now recognize the House Education and Workforce Full Committee Chairman, Mr. Wahberg, for an opening statement. Thank you uh Chairman Gosar. Let me
first extend my thanks to you for initiating this hearing and also thanks to subcommittee chairman Owens who has faithfully led our higher education and workforce development subcommittee in the 118th and now the 119th Congress.
He's repeatedly talked about how education is the key to unlocking the American dream. And of course, I lend my hearty amen to that. This is the second time our subcommittees have come together to hear the reoccurring uh operational challenges of the Bureau
of Indian Education. Over and over we've read reports and heard testimonies by GAO, the Inspector General and others about BIE's poor management of its K12 and postsecary schools and inability to exercise
meaningful oversight of Haskell Indian Nations University. It's well documented. The problem at Haskell are apparent. Uh the failure to maintain a safe and secure learning environment for students, misconduct by students and
staff, including sexual harassment that has often gone unressed. Bullying, nepotism, employee favoritism, and the list goes on. Within the last few weeks, we learned of the inspector general's
report about the sexual harassment of students on Haskell's women's basketball team, the failure of supervisor to report the harassment, and potential violations of Kansas state law involving athletic trainers. More broadly a and I
as I have observed from my role as chairman of the education and workforce committee, we continue to investigate campus anti-semitism, advocate for changes in the student loan program uh through reconciliation and dealing with
malign foreign influence by China at our colleges and universities. I'm grateful that we're making strides on these fronts and they must continue. At the same time, we must do more to ensure Native American students are provided a
safe and secure environment to learn at Haskell and that uh and and and that BIE once and for all rises to the occasion. I look forward to working with President Trump and his team to hear their
solutions for BIE and Haskell. And Mr. Davis, I certainly look forward to your testimony and I yield back, Mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize the House and Natural Resources full committee ranking member, Mr. Huffman, for his five minutes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am glad
that we're here uh talking on a bipartisan basis about these important institutions, Haskell and Cippy. Um obviously they have a very important mission. Uh they are pillars in the tribal education community. works
against poverty and they create opportunities for tribes throughout the country and a lot has been said about the problems at Haskell. Uh other members have covered it fully. I I don't disagree with any of those characterizations. It's it's a big problem and we need to tackle it in a
serious and bipartisan way. But it is worth noting that we have a lot greater visibility into Haskell and all of these issues because they're run by the federal government. We have better mechanisms for accountability and reform
because these schools are run by the federal government. Now, the problems at Haskell are complex. There are multiple causes, but there's a single cause that stands out um as eclipsing perhaps all of the others, and that is loss of
funding. The president's proposed budget for 2026 cuts funding for Haskell and Cippy by almost 90%. Uh we have to talk about that. That is essential context for these problems that we say we care about in a
bipartisan way. The budget for education construction at BIE would be cut by 80%. So if you think we had a serious problem with the maintenance backlog before, imagine adding an 80% cut to that BIE
education construction account on top of all of that. And of course, all of this should be a call to action for us to reauthorize the Great American Outdoors Act in a way that ensures that BIE and institutions like Haskell and Cippy
continue to get critical funding from that legislation. Um, there's one more thing that we really can't forget uh as part of this conversation, and that's the attacks by Elon Musk's Doge. In February, nearly 25% of staff members at
Haskell and Sippy were just fired, including instructors, maintenance workers, and other support staff. Dozens of courses at both schools lost their instructors. School dorms were overrun with garbage. Students reported undrinkable brown water. Dining halls failed to adequately
feed students. And widespread power outages hampered students ability to study. Uh so some campus staff have been rehired. Thankfully, uh, but employees at BIE's central and regional offices were also fired and given buyouts, and
frankly, uh, it has just led to chaos that is not good for either of these institutions. We cannot deprive an institution of resources and expect it to survive, let alone to help its students thrive. So I'm interested in working across the aisle with my
Republican colleagues on confronting the serious problems at Haskell and Cippy. I will do that with any member of Congress. Uh but I'm not interested in using these problems as a pretext for further gutting BIE or spinning off these institutions in a way that could
leave them orphaned and without federal funding and accountability. So with that, I I yield back. Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman from California now the the full rank full committee uh chairman Western is recognized. He's been sitting patiently. Thank you,
Chairman Gosar. And also want to extend a thank you to Chairman Wahlberg for his cooperation on this issue and for uh helping us coordinate this this joint here hearing and chairman Owens for your work on this critical issue. and I'm
pleased that we are here meeting again to talk about uh the issues that students are continuing to face at BIE's post-secondary institutions. Since our 2024 hearing, I have had the privilege of working with former Chairwoman Fox
along with now Chairman Wahlberg as well as my colleagues across the aisle to look at ways we can improve educational outcomes for tribal students attending these schools. And this is a a bipartisan issue. It's something that we should um work together on and it's
something that we should fix as soon as possible. But following our hearing um last Congress, our committee took decisive action to further address ongoing issues at Haskell. However, our efforts were stonewalled by DOI and the
previous administration. And the Department of Interior under its previous leadership did not provide proper access to a 2022 BIE report or its exhibits as promised despite a bipartisan request for review. Because of this, our teams left with more
questions than answers and follow-up requests for access went unanswered. Our committees also have worked to address the lack of background checks for members of the Haskell Board of Regents. Since our last hearing, a former member of the Haskell Board of
Regents pleaded guilty to a number of very serious felonies and was banished by his tribe. Because these board members have an active role on campus, background checks are an important tool in ensuring the ongoing safety of enrolled students. As has been mentioned, reports of sexual harassment
continue to create an unsafe environment for students at Haskell. On May 5th, the Department of the Interior Inspector General's Office released a report summary which found that BIE employee a BAE employee sexually harassed members of the Haskell women's basketball team
and that the supervisors and the staff did nothing about it. After reviewing this report, I'm further appalled. This same individual was reported by another student intern nearly a decade ago for similar behavior in investigated by the
BIE. Yet no action was taken. This is not the time for more investigation. This is the time for action. The overall condition at BIE schools continues to be unacceptable. The fact that enrolled students were turned away from Haskell at the start of the 2024 2025 academic
year because of a lack of housing is unacceptable. The fact that students at Haskell and Cippy are living in unsafe conditions on their campuses is not only unacceptable, but it's also appalling. It's incredibly disheartening and concerning that the BIE has failed to properly educate and foster a healthy
learning environment for our tribal students. We have trust obligations to our tribes and part of those trust obligations come from the Department of Interior and BIE. But because of the issues we have identified at Haskell and Cippy, Congress has had to step in where
B.I.E. and the department previously failed to provide proper oversight. Since the previous administration stonewalled Congress, we were limited in our ability to effectively provide oversight of BIE. And with the issues we identified, it is deeply concerning and
troubling to me that all of our requests were ignored by the former Secretary of the Interior. We now have the opportunity to reset and refocus. I think that Dr. Gossar said it best during our February hearing when he said that America first means putting
tribes first. I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses today who understand as has already been said, Mr. Davis is a graduate of Haskell. Uh in this new era, I look forward to exploring how Congress can work together with tribes and the Trump administration to ensure that Haskell and Cippy do not
return to business as usual at the expense of their students. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Herman. I will now introduce our witness, Mr. Scott Davis, senior adviser to the secretary, adi exercising the delegated authority of the assistant
secretary Indian affairs, bureau of Indian affairs, US Department of Interior, Washington DC. Let me remind you that the witness that under committee rules, you will limit your statements to about five minutes. Just know that the entire statement is already part of the part of the record.
To begin your testimony, make sure you push to the green light so that it's already on. When you see it getting yellow, start wrapping it up and if it gets red, please stop. Um, I now recognize you, Mr. Davis, for your five minutes. Thank you, sir. First of all, I
want to uh thank you uh chairman, members of committee for this opportunity and u probably most importantly the attention. But first of all, I just want to greet you all in my in my own way, in my in my tongue. Oshkate to Mchiwapin,
uh, Standing Rock, Turlean, Oate, uh, Davis, Buffalo Boy, Ple Taosh. Uh, good, good day everybody. I greet you all with a heart um, warm heartfelt handshake here. Um, it's a pleasure and an honor here to be in front of you today to talk
talk about a very very important topic that's very personal to me uh, for a number of reasons. Um, one being higher education. Uh, two, it's my elma mater in Haskell. So, so with that, Mr. Chairman, as you as you uh alluded to, I'm a Haskell graduate. Very proud of that back in the uh back in the 80s 90s.
Um I come from a long line of graduates from Haskell, including my mother uh who I think is watching today. Hopefully proud probably. I have certainly a lot of uncles and and um and relatives that have graduated over the years uh back in years ago and even today too. So, a long
history with Haskell in our education. Uh my father, Dr. Jim Davis who was a college president um uh passed away this this January um still get emotional of that was a college president and was a board of trustee was a regent at one time at
Haskell back in the 90s so we have a long very strong ties to Haskell I was also went to Haskell as a u as an athlete back in the day uh many pounds ago I'll say as a track and uh and marathon runner in which I was uh very uh fortunate to be an all-American back
in 1988 for the marathon championship team. So that history of of uh of um Haskell with his tradition of education um and also the history of Billy Mills and Jim Thorp is probably one of the re big reasons why I went there uh because
I wanted to be an Olympian at one time. Uh but you know those were the things I I aspired to be but here I am today. Um but the you know these schools uh along with the 574 tribes across in the country across America all have our
unique way of educating our our tribal students. Um um some have a number of BIE schools that we that we um that we lead also a number of uh TCUs tribal colleges that are out in uh throughout in the country. Their existence and their quality of education provided have
a direct and immediate impact for all future of Native Americans and sovereignty for all tribal communities. President Trump, Secretary Bergam, and my office uh leadership are dedicated to providing educational choice to our students to help prepare them to enter the workforce and lead successful lives
in the next generation of tribal leaders. BIA remains focused on ensuring access to highquality cultural relevant education that reflects the diverse needs and priorities of Indian students and tribal communities. Ongoing investments are being made in critical areas such as school infrastructure,
instructional quality, and student support services. We also remain committed to maintaining the educational stability in tribal communities and ensuring alignment with local needs. We also continue to engage in regulatory travel leaders uh meetings, schoolboard meetings, committee members to guide us
to invest investment decisions and identify opportunities for collaboration. With the resources entrusted by my agency and by Congress, we will continue advancing initiatives effectively and efficiently that promote academic excellence while honoring the culture identities of our Native
American students. So again, Mr. Chairman, members of committee, thank you for this opportunity and uh more importantly the attention. Um it's it's kind of a I would say unfortunate that you're into this second hearing uh since last year addressing you know these
challenges. Um I hope it's the last one. Um I hope we don't have to you know reconvene again here next year. Um because I'm fully committed into uh through my leadership through my experience with higher ed working for tribal college for eight years uh being an adjunct instructure um uh even
starting my my career as a K through8 uh teacher aid and coach back in the 90s uh and growing up in the in the in environment of higher education and education. So I'm very committed to uh seeing this through uh very concerning. I'm very appalled uh like like most of
you uh very upset personally of what I've I've been reading what I've been hearing about. Um but I'm I'm really looking forward to working with you and finding a different way a reset button of how we can make Haskell and our other educational uh settings uh more
beneficial to my relatives uh throughout the country. So So those are my opening comments. Uh Mr. Chairman, I'll stand for any questions or comments at this time. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis, for your comments. I'm now recognize members on the dis for your questions. I'm first going to go to the gentleman
from Utah, Mr. Burgess for his five minutes. Thank you. Uh first of all, Mr. Daves, I look forward to work with you. Um I also come from a long line of educators. My dad was a college professor for 40 years. Mom was a high school teacher. Um I look forward to you adding your tenacity, your grit as a
former athlete uh to your love of education. And uh we're going to write this ship for sure. I thought I'd start off last night. I just decided to read the mission statement for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Uh in the last sentence, it says this, promoting tribal self-determination and self-governance.
And how do you get there is through education, through BIE. Well, let me tell you what the status is of this community. Um it is the actual worst than any community in our country. is number one in suicide, number one in lowest life
expectancy, number one in violence and victimization, number one in alcohol abuse, number one in unemployment, number one in school dropout. Number now shares with the black community sex trafficking of girls.
Evil hides in darkness. Evil hides behind invisible victims. having the sovereignty state na uh nation status does not allow anyone to keep these good Americans from achieving the American dream. And unfortunat that's that's been
that's been happening way too long. Um I'm looking forward to um oh by the way let me just say this real quickly. Uh and and I might sound like a broken record, but I grew up at a time when I saw my community, my black community, lead our country in growth middle class, men retracing from college, men
committed to marriage and percentage of entrepreneurs because we had we had vision, we had education, and we had a a desire to really command respect. It was not the white supremacists that got us. It was black elitists, people who look
like me who decided that their their success, their prominence, their profitability was more important than our race. And I think we need to get back to merit in this community. We need to bring that to the front. And I look forward to doing that because there are people who care about the Native
American population. And it's time that we start making them first and not not acting as if they're invisible to the rest of our country because of the status that was given them many, many years ago. Um, Miss Davis, uh, uh, a May 2025 inspector
general report documents reported incidents of sexual harassment of some of the members of the Haskell women's basketball team by one of his athletic trainers. Since taking on the role of assistant secretary, what have you done to address the findings of this report? Um, and have you directed high school or
BIE to develop a plan of action to address these findings? Uh, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, Mr. Owens. Yeah. Um, thank you. I echo your your your your sentiments and your background on how you were raised. I I totally agree with that as well. Um um I know these these
I've I've read most of the reports, not totally in depth. I'm still reading a lot of the reports. Uh very concerning, very appalled, very very upsetting. Um obviously I can't comment on the investigation itself. Um can't do that. But I can assure you through our leadership, through my my action, all
these things will be addressed. whether it's the background checks, the uh the the allegation of sexual abuse, um all the the things that are included in those reports, all being addressed immediately as we speak. Okay. And I know you're just kind of uh getting sea
legs on this, but is there's any latest status on the inspector general's referral of the Kansas State Authorities for any potential violations of the licensing regulations governing athletic trainers? Is there any updates on that at all? Yeah, Mr. Owens, member of the committee. I I don't I'm not uh not
certain on that one. I haven't read that one. Um I'm I'm aware of it as of yesterday, but I'm not aware of the one that relates to uh the state of Kansas. On that one, sir. Well, just this I'm going to I'm going to pass on in a minute. I'm excited the fact we have a new sheriff in town. Um all Americans
count in this country. Uh those who have been hidden in the past are no longer be hidden. and I look forward to our um this uh this this committee really taking advantage of of what we have going on and make sure that uh we give every child a ch a chance to live the American dream. So, thank you and I look forward to working with you and uh and
Mr. May yield back. I thank the gentleman. Gentleman recognizes the ranking member for the uh committee uh Miss Dr. Der for her five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Davis, it's clear and I appreciate how much you care about
our tribal schools and your dedication to them and the students you serve. Thank you for that. Um, in your opinion, does the president's proposed budget for BIE indicate that this administration also cares about tribal students and schools?
I'm sorry, I can't see your your tag here, madam. uh but uh yeah respectively uh you know in the president's budget you know for uh 2026 uh provides resources for BI's core mission to support bureau operated and tribbally controlled primary and secondary schools
along Haskell Indian Nations University and Cippi uh BI budget request of 9 million and change in 2026 to continue support for Indian education programs including formula funding operations and maintenance funding for elementary and
secondary schools and support for secondary programs. The request prioritizes pro programs that directly support educational services to Indian children at BIE funded schools including the total BIE budget is 22 million
uh to specifically operations at both CP and Haskell. These funds ensure that BIE and operating postsecondary institutions are able to continue services delivery to support all tribes. So Mr. Davis, the president's budget proposes a 90% cut from BIE
post-secondary programs like Haskell and Sippy and an 80% cut to the BIE education construction. Do you think that this budget is a serious effort to address infrastructure concerns at our tribal colleges? Well, madam, uh I know
this is again I think a unique time for Haskell, uh unique time for in the country, a unique time for all of BIA in general. um as we look at resetting uh some buttons of of uh the path forward whether it's uh BI services in general
throughout the country or higher educ education uh institutions like Haskell uh and sippy um looking at different unique innovative ways and how we fund raise or provide um uh funding sources. I look at my own career back at uh
United Technical College back in 2008 2007 where I was a development officer and we got a lot of federal funding at that time. Also I was uh I was hired to look at other funding opportunities. U we de developed a foundation. I'm not certain if SASL has a foundation or not
but maybe that's one thing that we should look at collectively. Uh but ultimately trying to give Haskell more areas of funding potential versus kind of being dependent upon the federal dollar. Um but again looking forward to working with you Congress uh my office
um you know the interior office and how we can look at more innovative ways for funding mechanisms for Haskell. No and I appreciate that. I mean I understand that you are looking at other options and you know at what is a shortfall for
what is needed at Haskell and Cippy. Um, I guess I'm going to move on because I think it's clear that you're in a difficult situation and you're looking at other options to make sure you have the resources you need. But, um, do you believe the current infrastructure at
VIE run colleges fosters a high quality academic environment? Yeah, great question again too. I appreciate that. I was very um uh I'll say privileged uh very honored uh very humbled to be asked to be one of the commencement speakers
about a month ago for graduation. Um I I was just tickled, excited, very very nervous because I haven't been back to my Elma moder like 30 years and so entering the campus uh you know certainly a lot has changed uh uh a lot hasn't changed. Uh so during my my my
two-day uh visit there uh obviously visited uh the faculty, the staff, the students, took a lot of time just to have one-on-one meetings and so forth and took a long uh look at our our um um my old dorm. You know, I was a dorm president back then and I need some
help. You know, my mom's dorm, I took a picture of it uh old Pocahontas Hall, you know, I said, "Look, mom, look at your your your dorm. It's still there. Need some help." You know, so these are things uh when you have an iconic historical campus like Haskell and Cippy, you know, it's it obviously is
going to be wear and tear, deferred maintenance. Those are things that I think collectively working together, we can look at those things and how we can get those things up to par for safety and a good learning environment for our students across the country. So I have a few other questions, but in
in um to be in order, I guess I'll yield back and see if we have an opportunity later. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Davis. I acknowledge the the chairman for the full committee, Mr. Westerman from Hogsaw, for his first five minute call. Thank you, Chairman Gosar, and thank you, Mr. Davis, for
your testimony and for being here today. As I mentioned earlier, we pretty much got stonewalled by the previous administration when we asked for information following our our hearings last Congress. And my first question to you will be, will you commit to working
with Congress to address the issues at Haskell and Cippy? Absolutely, sir. Um I'm pleased to hear that we have um that agreement and the department will work with us to help the students at Haskell and Cippy. Uh from the issues that you've identified, what do you see
as the greatest threats facing students at these institutions? Yeah, great question. I appreciate the question. I think u some of those things that I'll deceive even as a parent, you know, uh when my wife and I went down for graduation uh together uh for, you
know, obviously a special moment for me personally, you know, we thought of our daughters who's a freshman in college right now and a graduating senior and we thought as parents like would this be a great place for our daughters to come here? Um and my my wife who is kind of the the mama bear of our family and uh
you know what what what she says kind of goes sometimes in my family she said yeah this would be a great place for for our daughters to come and learn because of the interaction with the families that were there during graduation the alumni uh I felt very very very secure but I think the the the thing that maybe
is a challenge is the sometimes the uncertainty you know of of you know there's a pending legislation through through your through your hallways here of a potential bill that's being introduced. That's great. What does that bill look like? Don't know. Um again, these are the things that we want to
help you with on what that uh uh congressional bill would look like that would benefit Haskell for the long term. Uh whether that's funding, infrastructure, governance, you know, all those things, all the above. But the I think the just the one challenge that I would feel as a parent, as alumni
would be just the the certainty or the uncertainty that's that's going on right now. a lot of questions, you know, that are out there pending and rightly so. You know, these questions are concerned uh for me. Uh but I'm I guess in I'm in a good position and very committed, you know, through my leadership and um
through my uh through my experience to help see this through, you know, uh through your help again through uh my leadership, my experience and the benefit of how Haskell could be a premier institution for in the country. It sounds like we live in similar
families and I've found that Mama Bear is usually right as well. Um, what administrative issues Haskell and Cippy face that u tribal colleges colleges and universities don't face? Well, you know, working for a tribal
college for years for about eight years, you know, and my dad being a president for one for 12 years, you know, I I was very fortunate to really hone in on on how do you um govern or administer a tribal college and there's challenges and I tell you tribal colleges across
our country are very unique in how they they administer their funds. you know, where they get their funds from, whether it's, you know, through these hallways or private funds or foundations or private partnerships with with private sector. Um, but they they do amazing jobs across the country on how we obtain
and and sustain federal funding and other funding sources. So, these are the unique things I think the as far as a business model goes that other colleges should be looking at. But the bottom line for our colleges, it's affordability. You know, that's one reason I went to Haskell because it was
affordable. You know, I was, you know, my parents did well here and there, but you know, it was very affordable. So, if you look at across all of India country, the TCUs that we call, they're very affordable. Um, and um, they fit home. They fit me as a as a Lakota, as a
Ishanab man, you know, because they provide a a uh a more of a uh um cultural focus of who I am as a as a Native American. So, those things are really important to me. um as a Native American man that I kind of fit home. Eventually, you get your two years done
or you transfer, which I did, you know, finish off my two years graduate school and so forth. But, uh again, I I really applaud what uh tribal colleges are doing, Haskell City, and how they, you know, fund things and uh ultimately provide education settings for uh
students across the country. Yeah. So, there's been some discussion about the Great American Outdoors Act, which I hope we can work together to to reauthorize that. We're coming up on the fifth year of uh of that piece of legislation and the um although Congress
created that program uh no funds were utilized by Haskell or Cippy under the previous administration. How does this administration plan to tackle the crumbling infrastructure at the two institutions using GAOA funding? Another
great question, sir. Uh I think that's one thing that you know Secretary Bergam and I who did a lot of work when he was governor you know his his eight years at the state I worked for him for six you know when we worked with the tribal colleges back home is trying to be uh innovative ways of funding you know we
legislated a lot of state dollars to tribal colleges back home you know through workforce development as we know across America we we all need good jobs and where are we going to get good jobs from from you know educational um settings graduates you know uh whether it's nursing in, you know, truck
driving, sometimes oil services, energy services, uh, on and on. Uh, but tribal colleges do a great job of of, uh, preparing, uh, our students for the next level. But I think you know being innovative with those programs through that funding source and I'm not really
privy to how that works on um through the uh that uh funding source but looking at that those ways with you uh with my help uh of looking at different funding pots funding buckets and how we can sustain and long-term fund you know
tribal college and hasll in in the long term. I'm out of time. Mr. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman, the gentleman from California, Mr. Don S, is recognized for his five minutes. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman. Um, Mr. Davis, thank you for telling us the story of you going back to your college days. Um, let me talk a little bit about the bureau's involvement in accreditation. Um, you are involved. This provides for a level
of oversight both financially and career development and making sure that all the things you've talked about actually are realized by students. So how is the bureau involved with accreditation of the schools? A very good question. And uh sir uh yeah accreditation um I never been directly involved in accreditation
but I know a little bit or enough to to um to understand it but you know I go back to governance whether you're the president vice president the dean uh your board of regents your your your u you know I also served as a uh on a board of a college back home so
decisions is very important how you how you govern your your your school system and that all relates to to to u uh the higher education um accreditation. Um so obviously there's there's checks and balances that every every higher education institution
across America including our TCUs have to follow and making sure that those are followed uh with transparency with good standing and so forth too. So uh from my my seat I'm very I'm going to watch that very uh intensely. Um, I'll probably I
rarely do I micromanage, but I see myself micromanaging a lot of these processes from from start till finish here in the in the coming years. So, I'm going to be very involved in that accreditation process. To answer your question, one of the challenges in California that we've faced is because
of the diversity in our UC and CSU and community college districts is making sure there's culturally competent staff, administrators, particularly teachers. And how are we doing as far as you you know on that aspect of making sure the young people who go through these
schools are using their knowledge and their you unique perspective to make sure that um young people in this environment feel like they are being listened to without uh any kind of biases but an appreciation of continuing
the cultural um benefits that we get from these young people. Absolutely. You know, I think I look back at my mom, you know, who went to dental school there back in the day and, you know, there's still a high big need for uh, you know, healthc care in the country and Haskell was was and I hope, you know, maybe
through this process again, we can elevate Haskell as another health care um, academia for uh, dental or other health care services for in the country. Um, but back then predominately a lot of those teachers back then were non-native. You know, fasttrack now, you
know, to when I was at school Even back in the 80s, you know, probably 99% of my teachers were were native. You know, they're probably alumni and my coaches were all native and uh and they're from all over the country. So, I was very I felt at home. I felt secure when I when so when I felt that way, I I achieved I
I did well. You know, my grades weren't weren't the best at times like most kids, but uh but I you know, I performed well with academics and um and uh my athletics, you know, because I felt at home. So that obviously continues, you know, and that's the nice thing about,
you know, when you graduate from Haskell or TCU, you know, you're you're taught to come back and help your community and give back to your your troubled people, you know, as a teacher or a coach or what have you. So that's terrific. Well, hopefully stay engaged in development as you just articulated how important that
is for us as a country that we get the value of that perspective um for the whole country, but we preserve that heritage as well. So well spoken. I want to ask you a question about Southwestern Indian poly techchnic institute its efforts to broaden and get more young
people into STEM. Again in Northern California where I'm from we put a lot of effort into this. Uh sort of the curve has changed a little bit particularly on the technology side and employment but on engineering as a member of the transportation infrastructure committee it's a constant
challenge to get enough engineers. uh and specifically back to the previous question engineers that represent America in a diverse perspective. So the efforts at uh at CP to CIP to get more young people to go into STEM programs.
Can you comment on that and your involvement? Yeah, I'm a uh sir, I'm a big believer in STEM. I'm a big big believer in polytech. Um uh I know we have a couple of those in institutions back home in Bismar. Uh United Tribes is one of those. Um, you know, I haven't
I've yet to make my rounds to Sippy, you know, like I visited Haskell. So, it's definitely on my high priority list just to visit, you know, for me personally, I have to really see and feel, you know, when I talk to the president, the leadership, the students, and just the environment of the buildings and infrastructure and most importantly the
programming, you know, of what uh CPS consisted uh consists of. So, those things I'm going to be looking forward to here in the very very near future. Thank you, Mr. Davis. I've got two seconds left, so I'll yield back. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman is is
recognized for his five minutes. Thank you. Well, one of the themes of our education committee is that perhaps too many people are going to college and not getting a skills-based education which could lead to more job security and a
higher salary. Um, say with regard to Haskell, uh, what are the majors there that are most common among kids graduating from Haskell? Great question. I know I I I should know this by heart now because we were going over these these things with my daughters uh of
what they wanted to be. I know one they have a very uh robust environmental science program there. I know they have uh areas of um of uh athletic training there. I know there's another one and obviously a business degree and so forth. Uh a number of two-year co uh
two-year degrees as well uh if you want to just get to your associates like I did. Uh but I know the the number of those degree programs have really flourished over the years. There's been increases uh I would say the last couple years uh enrollment has increased over 30%. I know that a record graduation
when I was there around 161 graduates which was a a big turnout uh good to see but for for for good reasons. Uh contrary to what we're experienced here in the past with some of these reports and very disturbing news, uh um Pasco's
growing. Casc's growing, you know, and it's a growing in a in a in a in a in a good way. But I think again it's it's important uh what we're doing here today is making sure that that's progressing in a good way. It's stable. It's got its rights, checks and balances, you know, that I'm gonna micromanage through
through my seat and u making sure that um you know it's a safe environment for all students that attend there. Okay. I I know around the country and it's good that enrollment is going up around the country. I think colleges are having a problem and that there's a a demographic
dip now. I know since I got this job, we've had two universities, private universities in Wisconsin fail in part because of just lack of students and and somebody had to go under. Uh when I look here, it looks like Kansas has over 20
universities that offer four-year degrees of some nature. And given the wellocumented problems here today, uh I I wondered why would somebody go to Haskell, you know, when when you don't
have these uh concerns appearing in the paper? Um why do you think Haskell should I guess continue to exist given we have so many other colleges in Kansas that don't have
these problems? Great question, sir. Very good question. You know, I can only look at myself and potentially even my daughters. You know, um one, it's a challenge. You know, some of us want to go away after college, right? We we're this young kid and we're going to move to the cities and at least us uh you
know, rural rural uh families, you know, come from the res and so forth. Um so, one is a challenge. Two for me was you it was because of my family. Uh my mom and dad went there, my mom did, you know, so that's historic. It's tradition. Um, secondly is that you want
to go to a place where you're safe. Um, I know some of the colleges here in town, uh, that are historically black colleges. You know, I think there is a reason for that. Um, I'm not obviously, uh, African-American. Uh, but I think there's some culture things to that.
Certainly, same with us, you know, why we want to go to a tribal college or a place like Sapior Haskell because it's a home away from home where you feel safe and you're you're around uh, your Native American relatives. So that's the tradition that for us is very very important culturally. Um secondly is
just to get an education and probably lastly is affordability. You know where when I grew up um you know things were tough. You know mom and dad they worked hard like everybody else. U but affording especially in today's and I'm sure you you address that quite a bit.
The the the cost in higher education you know it's skyrocketing. How much how much is the average debt per graduate of uh Haskell? I'm not sure about the debt, but roughly it's about 16 to $1,700 to attend a full year at
Haskell, which is which is a you know, in today's age, uh it's it's phenomenal to to get a full education with that. How much is the total tuition for 16 to $1,700 per year? 16 to That's very reasonable. Um I
guess one measure of success of a university is how many kids graduate? I think they say within six years. Do you know of the kids who started as school? How many grad percentage wise how many graduate in six years? Yeah. Uh good great question again on the data sets on that sir. Uh but you know we looked at
some in general since Haskell in its inception back in the day towards that now roughly around you know 10 to 12,000 graduates since its inception back in the day. I mean percentage-wise of the kids who say six years ago began
at Haskell, how many get their degree within six years? Oh, I see. I understand. Sorry, Mr. And question. Yeah, the graduation rate on that I would say, you know, I would estimate it's anywhere from 60 to, you know, 80% that graduate from that who start and finish. Okay. I think the gentleman
whose time has expired. The gentleman from Puerto Rico, Mr. Hernandez is now recognized. Oh, how do these go? No. Um, come right up to this one right here.
All of yours are blinking, right? Oh, come up here. You in my chair. Seriously, get up here. They have better water in this committee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your generosity. It's definitely definitely a
different view from here. Um, and now as chair, do I have the authority of the chair so that I can decide a few matters? Uh thank you Mr. Davis for being here today. Uh for many native communities,
education is inseparable for cultural survival. Tribal colleges and Indian country schools are not just places of learning. They are the heart of our communities where language, tradition, and identity are nurtured and passed to the next generation. As we discuss
educational policies, it is essential we recognize these institutions as vital stewards of culture and sovereignty. With that in mind, I'd like to ask, tribal colleges and schools often operate in rural or underserved areas where cultural traditions remain deeply
rooted. How does the department plan to enhance support for these institutions to not only provide academic success but also foster cultural continuity and community pride? Great question, sir. Um, you're I really
echo your sentiments. You know, I look at our tribal colleges again, I because I came from one. My dad was a president for a number of years. Uh, they certainly are the heartbeat the they're the cornerstone of a lot of tribal communities, tribal nations across America.
uh very supported uh ran very very uh uh they're they're ran and governed in a very stable way. Um I've always valued every tribal college president that I've worked with over the years. In fact, I'll have the privilege of speaking to a number of the tribal colleges here in the next month on on on some issues. But
they they always have my support. Um because I've told many of them when I retire hopefully many years ago uh I'm going to go back to a tribal college and teach you know give back whether it's teaching a government class or you know mopping floors or cutting grass like Forest Gump I don't know but I'm going to give back you know and that's my goal
uh when I retire is to go back to a tribal college um I'm looking forward to that many years from now though but you know make no doubt that tribal colleges Haskell Mississippi you know the colleges where I come from are cornerstones uh for for Indian country because of those are places. In fact, we
were just out in Chief Dull Knife College in Lame Deere here about a month or two ago. And again, you talk about the innovation of how they raised money, how they support uh um you know, local communities with jobs um and also the buyin from local communities around
there on teachers, you know, and professionals that want to teach there. So, you know, it's you have to have a strong heart, a very strong good sense of your spirit to be a teacher. you got to really care on on on what you're doing with those tribal colleges. So, I see that all the time with our tribal
colleges across America and um working with you, with Congress, you know, through our office, through through our leadership together, I think we can continue to build together, you know, uh a better and and and greater community for these tribal colleges across America. Great. Thank you. And
universities and tribal colleges in Indian country are more than educational institutions. They are guardians of language, tradition, and cultural resilience. How does the Department of the Interior support these schools in fulfilling this vital role? And what further steps can be taken to strengthen
their capacity as centers of cultural preservation? Again, partnerships, uh, you know, honoring our treaties, you know, honoring our sovereignties as as many you are privy to, you know, our treaties across uh, every tribe. You're always going to hear that from me and from our tribal leaders that honor our treaties.
And that one big one is education, you know, providing the resources and funding, you know, through administrations, through Congress, uh, through various agencies, you know, and how do we do that? How do we work together on those things? So, I know you'll see a number of tribal college presidents that come through these hallways. You know, they they talk with
you, they meet with you, but honoring those treaties through our land, water resources, uh ultimately u honing and and providing leadership uh experiences and um and avenues for you know, up and cominging leaders. You know, I I look at myself like never in my experience as a
high school graduation that I'd be sitting here, you know, in this position. I was, you know, wanted to be a coach and teacher like my dad, you know, simply. Uh, but for some reason, I'm here, um, doing the best I can. But I also look at, you know, the graduates that that I've experienced over my time,
you know, a lot many of them are are tribal leaders. They're tribal chairs. They're they're seated on council seats. Some of them are governors of their towns and and uh, cities, you know. So you have a high level of leadership that comes out of these tribal colleges including Haskell and Mississippi that
are leading you know in the country you know in a in a better way. Um and we all face challenges like I said you know through history and time but uh you know we have this resiliency of our people this sense of strong of of a strong spirit uh we as people in uh seeing
these things through. Um so again just looking forward to supporting tribal colleges. I always will um always have and look forward to doing more. Thank you. And I agree with the importance of honoring our treaties. I think it's important that the United States government and Congress do more to
respect tribal nations sovereignty as well as the sovereignty, autonomy, and self-government of all US territories, Commonwealths, and free associated states. With that, I yield back. gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Collins, for your five
minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Davis, thank you for for being here today. Um, you know, I'd like to tell people a little bit about who I am first before I get to to talking about things. This is my second term up here, uh, starting my second term, and and it has been stated
multiple times. We've had a number of hearings on BIE and and some of the things that we've seen going on in our our Bureau of Indian Education and uh I want to tell you what I've seen. I've seen a lot of failure, you know, whether it be just and and the school being
dilapidated, whether the education is not there or whether it's misconduct, criminal activity. It seems like we've seen the gamut of of problems. And but I've also seen success stories. uh you take like the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and how they have taken over a
lot of of of their own destiny and how they're educating those kids and and uh bringing them back into their culture and it's uh it's exciting to see that. You know, I'm I'm a small businessman and uh I've been in the private sector
all my entire career really and the way I look at things is pretty simple. I like to look at where we have successes and how do we replicate that throughever whatever we're looking at and then if we have problems what is the problem what is the solution and how do we make sure that that never happens again and that's
kind of where I want to focus today is you know you can talk about money but you can also talk about management and and what you're seeing on that area so back in 2018 I launched an investigation into SIPA over a manager at the school who had engaged in sexual misconduct and
harassment ment. The results of the OIG's investigation found that neither SIPA or BIE had a policy prohibiting sexual relationships between faculty and students. Now, since this investigation, has BIE developed a policy prohibiting
such relationships? Yes, sir, they have. Why was there no policy in place prohibiting sexual relationships between faculty and students? Yeah, you know, uh, sir, uh, great question again. Um, something that,
you know, I just shake my head at, you know, I just don't understand why, um, you know, I'm not, you know, one to look in the past, you know, too much, but, you know, through through our my leadership, through my direction, you know, these things are going to have already been, you know, uh, implemented
or being worked on. What what protections are in place? So, we're looking at uh just working with our BIE staff, leadership, HR, all those processes of uh sexual harassment, uh background checks, uh making sure everybody's vetted, whether you're uh a
schoolboard member, uh your governance, you're a president, teacher, faculty, coach, all those things are being uh highly vetted and uh looking at little strong policies, making sure they're implemented. I want I want to go to that real quick. uh the background checks. You know, last year when our committees
met to discuss Haskell, former president uh Dr. Ronald Graham highlighted that Haskell failed to perform background checks, which saw three regents failed their tests and allowed a convicted felon to serve on the board. Uh what steps has the department taken or is planning to take to ensure background
checks are carried out? Yeah, that's another concerning one for me uh that I just kind of shake my head at, sir. Uh but again, you know, though all those uh background checks, policies are being implemented as we speak. All right. You uh since you're doing that, I'm I'm sure you're going to be able to keep uh
Congress and this committee appraised of your progress on implementing that. Absolutely. Thank you. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. I thank the gentleman from Georgia, the gentle gentle lady, the ranking member from workforce committee is now recognized.
Thank you, Mr. chairman and uh thank you Mr. Davis for your testimony and let me say that I want to commend you for the successes that you've had. Um in 1965, Congress passed the Higher Education Act as part of Lyndon B. Johnson's war on
poverty uh to expand higher education access to low and middle inome students. And although more lowincome students and native students enroll in college now more than ever, the enrollment rates of these students still lag behind those of
their peers. Our tribal colleges and universities, which have long served students who've had to overcome more than their fair share, historic disinvestment, generational trauma, and underfunded schools. These students
don't just show up to learn. they show up to carry forward a legacy. And so let me start here. Mr. Davis, uh can you share with us what kind of impact completing a college degree has on students who attend tribal colleges and
universities and what about the impact on their families and and the greater native community? Well, madam, that's a great question. Um thank you for the history lesson, too, on that. Um appreciate that uh impact. um you're probably looking at one. Uh I
started out, you know, I'm not a, you know, bright student. I just worked hard. you know, I was a probably a B+ student, give or take, but you know, working hard and given the opportunity to to excel in in a space that was for me safe, you know, that was culturally uh where I was surrounded by my
relatives. And I always say relatives as as any country, we well consider ourselves relatives, whether you're Navajo or Clinket or or Seol or for my case, Lakota. But when you're in a good space like that, you're you're you're going to do well. And I felt felt that when I was at Haskell. I felt that when
I was at home at Turtle Mountain Community College um community school. I felt that. And so in those areas I you know you succeed because you you you you feel you feel good about who you are. Compound that with um you know cultural teachings, language, uh culture, all
those things. Um you know we never had that you know early on. And those are the things my dad fought for as a superintendent uh as an administrator is that we can't continue to teach this old archaic way of math and science and reading and math and and we still do that, you know, but to incorporate, you
know, a cultural language was uh was one reason why I succeeded, you know, in those adventures. Well, well, thank you very much. I I certainly can identify with that as a a graduate twice of a historically black college and university that has some of similar issues in terms of infrastructure and so
forth, but but you made it clear uh why it's important for the federal government to invest in these schools. Uh can you share uh just uh briefly how the administration believes that the impact of TCUs would continue with a near 90% funding cut uh as the president
requested in his budget? Yeah, again, as I mentioned earlier on my testimony, you know, there are budget proposals out there. Um, you know, again, those are things that obviously you as Congress members, you know, uh go through daily uh enter into your budget cycles and so forth, too. And this is no
different. You know, aside from uh what's being proposed, you know, in the in the current budget, uh tribal colleges, I know they're they're very active in in in um I'll say maybe lobbying is the the appropriate word here. uh as they you know asked for more funding you know that's always
continued. My my dad did years and years of that you know as a tribal college president he spent a lot of time out here you know uh advocating for you know and showing showcasing um you know the results uh like the students I think that were behind me you know he had bring a lot of the tribal college
students here on showcasing their their academic achievements and again you know looking at those appropriations and keeping uh those funds going. Okay. So, so what I'm hearing from students and presidents is is clear that TCUs are already being asked to do the impossible
and now we're telling them to to to continue to do that without heat, without roofs, and in some cases without food on campuses. In 2024, ProPolypica released a damning report highlighting the failures of the federal government
to fully fund tribal colleges and universities. And so the lack of financial hazards to address pipes bursting, ceilings falling, student cafeterias closing for entire entire semesters. And Mr. Chairman, I ask unan unanimous consent to enter this report
uh into the record without objection. So order. So Mr. Davis, is there something that you've seen with Haskell or Sippy? Uh what are some of of their current infrastructure challenges? Yeah, great question again, ma'am. Um I think you know for us as as in country nothing's
impossible. We just have to find you know innovative ways to keep you know our funding sources available. And again I I did years of that and yes we got some federal funding. Yes we got some state funding. Yes we got some private funding but you know we got to continue that's just kind of how in the country
is you know um but I think uh sometimes the being dependent sometimes on on federal funding it es flows. You know, we all know that. You as appropriators know that. Uh there there's some years where you get a lot of funding, some years you don't. It just that's nothing new to us. So looking forward of being
more innovative and uh giving us the leverage to to govern ourselves uh through our sovereignty models as I think is the best approach on that. Well, thank you for your work and thank you for your commitment and so we'll look forward to you addressing the longstanding infrastructure challenges
of tribal colleges and the work that you're doing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you, gentle lady. The next next I recognize a gentleman from Kansas, Tra, Mr. Man, for his five minutes. Thank you, Chairman Gosar and Owens, and thank you for holding this important
joint hearing today and and for allowing me to wave on to this committee. Um, thank you, Mr. Davis, for being here. I represent the big first district of Kansas and while I do not serve on either of these committees, Haskell Indian Nations University is in my
district, these concerns are serious and is imperative that Congress gets to work on muchneeded improvements at both Haskell and Sippy. Established in 1884 by federal legislation aimed to fulfill the United States treaty and trust obligations to provide a highquality
education to American Indians. Haskell is the only tribal university in the country with an entirely indigenous population. As alumnist, I know you know that full well full well. It is a one-of-a-kind historic and invaluable institution. However, and and let me be
clear when it comes to Haskell, the US Department of the Interior and the Bureau of Indian Education have repeatedly dropped the ball. Years of mismanagement, lack of oversight, and cycles of misconduct have all compounded and led us to yet another hearing. I
look forward to hearing from you today on how President Trump and administration plan on giving these issues the attention that has been lacking and providing solutions to finally write some of these wrongs. Um, and Mr. Mr. Davis, thank you again for being here. Do you believe that the BIE
can realistically handle postsecary tribal education given the lack of lack of success in managing only two institutions? Yeah, Congressman, great question. Um, thank you for your leadership as uh your your membership as a leadership in
Congress for the district and including uh Lawrence and and Haskell. Um, great question on on how we how my office um, you know, operates uh, our school systems. Uh, it's kind of twofolded. Some some areas we do very well and we
do very well with the support from tribes, the local tribes, you know, tribal uh, leadership's involved. U, in fact, we we'd rather see tribes uh, operate their own schools um, self-governance in models. But in cases like Haskell and Cippi, it's a different
unique business model or a governance model in which it requires some oversight from the federal. Obviously, we haven't been doing a good job of that, you know, and that's why one big reason why I came to this office when asked by Secretary Bergam is how do we figure out Haskell? How do we figure out
uh these school systems? From your experience working alongside tribes, how has providing opportunities for tribal communities to be in a greater position of authority over matters such as their education led to better outcomes for students? That that's a good another great question. That's a decision that
that tribal leaders uh that own and decide on whether or not they want to have their own tribal uh education systems. A lot of them do like the tribal colleges. Some do partnerships with the state. some do partnerships with the uh the procal schools, private schools, all the above. But, you know,
it's given us a a a a broader sense of school choice. You know, I know school choice has been brought up uh a lot here in in the last year or so, but you know, over the years, we've been able to establish school choice through through higher education and our school systems
um on reservations. I is the department open to a possible legislative solution to help students at Haskell? Absolutely. Well, Mr. Travis, I I just asked the last question because um and we discussed this before, but Senator Jerry Moran, also from Kansas, and I've been
working on a legislative fix for Haskell. Our bill would transfer Haskell's governance from the BIE to the Has to a Haskell board of trustees, which would be formed through the legislation and consist of members nominated by the tribal communities. The university would be issued a charter and
would still receive federal support. I urge my colleagues to support this bill and I hope that we can work together in a bipartisan fashion with the Department of Interior on this legislation and really help to get to a better place and be everything that it can be. You know,
Haskell's in my district. Uh when you pull up and and and walk around campus, you're there for 15 seconds and realize that this institution is not what it should be and it should be a crown jewel. Um it is not a crown jewel today
but I believe with some changes um some very important changes for more autonomy more self-governance um we we can get this um what could be a crown jewel to a much better place. We owe it um to to the students um to do that and I appreciate you being willing
to be here today and again thank you uh Mr. Chairman for letting me wave on. Thank the gentleman from Kansas. The gentleman from Guam, Mr. Mland is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you Mr. Chairman, Mr. Davis, the bureau's 2022 A1B report really didn't do much there
to uh show what's happening, good things happening. In fact, the investigation talked about the poor leadership, handling of sexual harassment, misconduct, bullying, and theft. So hopefully, I know there's some changes that have been made to HASCO as a result in the report. Talk about some of those
changes that have been made. Yeah. Uh thank you for the question. Uh thank you for the concern. Again, like I reiterated earlier, you know, some of these reports I can't uh comment on. There's they're ongoing investigations, but you know, um again, I'm I'm
extremely upset, you know, um and I just think that with your help, with collaboration, you know, we're going to turn the ship in the right direction. Um I'm very confident of that. you know, if it requires me to micromanage from time to time, I'll definitely do that because it's twofold. You know, for me sitting
in this seat, but also alumni from there, I'm sure you as members of Congress, you come from institutions, you graduated from wherever you came from and if something was happening to your college, you probably would try to do something. I'm no different. So, these are things that are kind of personal to me uh because of uh where I
came from and where I graduated from and how personally invested I am with Haskell. So, we're going to do all we can to make this make this right and so we don't have to sit here again a year from now and and talk about the same thing of the bad bad things that have
happened and and those uh bad things and thank you for that by the way and those bad things that did happen uh when reported by the students. The university really didn't take uh good care of of the students and offering some care and support for those those folks. So hopefully we can do something uh in
their concern to make it a better life for them there. Uh what levels of oversight will BIE uh exercise on on Haskell now to ensure that the college is held responsible uh for failure to follow these basic policies? Well, I
think it all starts with leadership, sir. You know, leadership governance. you know, you I'm sure many of you in Congress sit on boards or been asked to serve on some type of capacity leadership because of who you are, your experience, and we're no different. you know, making sure that we're I'm held accountable, making sure there's
transparency, making sure that we're following, you know, regulations and laws, whether it's federal or or tribal, what have you. However, this however we're going to create this this governance um process, but making sure that we're accountable uh to to our students uh to those families that want
to come there and and uh get a good education. So, that's our commitment. I appreciate the commitment. Now we just got to build back the trust from these students uh in the aftermath of this of this report. So uh and speaking of that
on the new interim president coming on in your conversations with the president, how's he planning to address these breaches of trust outlined in the report? Yeah. The first of all, I think the uh the outgoing president has another few weeks left, so he's not
officially um u um uh left yet. So the interim I know Mr. Mackie Moore who I talked with uh just in general talking um I know he he's a he's a he's alumni there like myself. So again you have another person that's you know personally invested into that college.
I've heard really good things about Mr. Mackie Moore. I know we have a process that we have to go through. Uh some of these government process I'm I'm getting used to them learning them as as I go on how people are selected how they apply and so forth too. So, but I'm excited, you know, for that process to to uh to
kickstart. And again, I'll be I'll be watching that process very good, very closely and uh making sure that we have a very strong strong president either he or she, you know, that will be uh our next uh leader for Haskell in in the in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Davis. I believe with your leadership and the new president coming on board, you this report, you can see where we can start and make all the improvements as possible. Please let us know how we can continue to help. Absolutely. It's it's a reset. I think again I as I stated before, you know,
this is good timing. Uh unfortunately why we got to meet here again, but I think if we reset our minds, you know, our collective uh leadership skills here and really hone in on on the changes the the good changes coming to Haskell. Um I'm looking forward to that. Thank you,
Mr. J. Uh Davis. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. I thank the gentleman. Gentleman from California, Mr. Conor is recognized for his five minutes. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Davis, uh we've heard that if Congress
were to reduce the funding as the administration has proposed, tribal colleges would close. What is your response to that? Uh yeah, good great question. And as again I as I stated in my previous comments, you know, uh we've
all been through funding's uh dips and highs and lows. As I mentioned before, I I worked for a tribal college for eight years. I was a development officer. I was an adjunct instructor. My dad was a tribal college president. So this is nothing new to us, you know. Um so as we
continue continue to uh work together through my office in this seat uh looking at tribal college leaders u um uh tribal tribal leaders in general you know um um you know kind of lobbying you guys uh as they do every every um every
cycle. These are the things that I think we all look at but contrary to that I think we look at other ways of how we fund tribal colleges whether it's state funding which I've which we did secretary and I uh Bergam did a tremendous job of getting state dollars to to tribal colleges also private funds
you know uh foundations and I think these are things that hopefully some of this legislation this bill would would open the doors for a foundation like Haskell and other areas for funding. Thank you Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to enter into the record this article entitled Trump wants to cut
tribal college funding by nearly 90% putting them at risk of closing. Without objection, so ordered. So, Mr. Davis, you are an alum of Haskell Indian Nations University. You've also been an educator in BIE funded high schools. Um,
but before I ask my question, I mean, 90% is a is a huge cut, I mean, do you not agree that it would that this cuts of this magnitude would mean tribal colleges would close many of them? Well,
again, how can how can tribal college I mean, what other revenue do they have besides the federal government? Yeah, again, great question. And as I stated before, you know, the these changes, es and flows and and funding formulas throughout the country is nothing new to us. You know, I've spent a lot of time
in my first, you know, two months. Respect. Isn't a 90% cut new? Have we ever had this kind of a cut before? Yeah. Like I said, I'm sorry to That would be That is new, is it not? A 90% cut is new. Yeah. I'm just making
sure you're done, sir. Sure. Go ahead. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. No, like I said, you know, I've I've as a development officer, you know, raising money for my college, my dad being a tribal college president, you know, we've seen cuts for for years. We've seen, you know, receiving increases, you know, but I
think that we as sovereign nations, tribal colleges, respectfully, Mr. Davis, is not a 90% cut new? Has have we ever experienced this before? That's a great question. I'm not certain on that. You're not? So, your answer is you're not certain. I'm not certain. Yes, sir. Okay. Um,
and it would stand I mean would would would any co would would all of the colleges or tribal colleges survive a 90% cut? Wouldn't some of them just have to close? I I'm not certain on that, sir. That's a good question. I I don't know the finances of every tribal
college in America. Okay. Let's put it the other way. Uh are you can you say to this committee that every one of the colleges that now exist the tribal colleges exist that they would be unharmed that that they would all stay open? I'm sure
there'd be some direct impacts. I'm I'm certain of that. But again, moving forward, you know, in this time of resetting, you know, uh funding formulas, uh looking at how governance uh uh models are used for tribal colleges for particular has. That's what
I'm focused on today. Well, which which college, you know, which colleges would be most likely to close first under this 90% cut? Like I stated before, sir, I'm not privy to every tribal college's finances or budget situations. Okay.
Well, um uh I'm highly troubled by this proposed 90% cut. Um well, I'm proud to represent Sherman Indian High School, which is a BIE run school. Sherman and many other BIA schools struggle with staff recruitment and retention and the
reductions in force that the Trump administration has enacted would uh have worsened the problem by cutting dedicated staff at the schools and at the BIA. Can you describe the impact that inadequate staffing has on BIA's
ability to conduct proper oversight of these schools? Another great question, sir. Yeah. So the, you know, the the staff cuts, the deferred uh uh retirement plans, they all have run the course. Fortunately, through my leadership and through uh I'll say um um
you know providing uh education or orientation to how Indian education is is ran throughout in the country. We're able to get those a lot of those positions exempt or are or are or are um walked back, I'll say. So that's kind of where we're at through a lot of those
educational systems, but places like where you come from from Sherman School, familiar with that. I'll be visiting one in Riverside this this uh this Friday uh on their graduation efforts. But um again, looking at collectively how can we work together through my office through your through your seats on
sustainable funding and governance um processes for for these schools across the country. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry I ran over. I yield back. You're up. Gentleman from Montana, Mr. Daning is be recognized for his five minutes. Uh Mr. Chairman, uh thank you
for holding this important hearing and uh thank you for allowing me to wave on. And Mr. Davis, thank you for being here. Uh I represent Montana's second district and uh came out of education. So something that I I think about a lot. um
in student student safety must be the foundation of any successful educational environment. Given the troubling history of criminal activity and mismanagement at Haskell, what steps is the department taking to improve crime crime prevention
and campus security both in terms of physical infrastructure and institutional accountability? Great question, sir. Again, as I reiterated early on, you know, this is a very concerning, very upsetting, very appalled, you know, that these things have happened. Um, but as we speak, I
can assure you that these policies, procedures, um, you know, the governance pro processes for these schools that under my leadership are all being addressed. Thank you. Given the direct appropriations and federal operation of Haskell and the Southwest Indian
Polytechnic Institute, um, transparency and stewardship of federal dollars is critical. Can you speak about what the department is doing to improve financial oversight? Great question. You know, from experience, you know, when I would raise money, whether it's federal dollars or state dollars or private dollars, I made
sure that as a development officer working for a tribal college that I was very on task with reporting mechanisms, uh you know, your audits on and on. So, these things are are at least through my um uh control are going to be very uh micromanaged moving forward. So, are new
tracking or reporting systems being developed to avoid the kind of waste and abuse uh we've seen in the past? Absolutely. Like like I stated before, I haven't read every report. Um, you know, I think I've read enough to be concerned, but moving forward, all those things will be uh addressed. So, another
uh topic, graduation rates at both Haskell and the Southwest Indian Poly Techchnic u are are big concern, especially given the promise these schools hold for native students. So what efforts are underway to boost student success whether through academic
support uh program modernization or partnerships with tribal communities? Yeah, great question again sir. I think it's all the above. you know, as a parent with young uh you know, uh daughters who who are in college and one want to go to college, looking at those programs, you know, uh workforce
development, I mean, know as most kids nowadays, if you have them uh like I do, you know, they change their mind, you know, from week to week that one day they want to be a business uh a business owner of some the other one they want to be a teacher. So making sure and the and the tribal colleges do a great job of
providing you know a flexibility of array of degree programs offered to uh students across the country. Thank you. Have you heard from tribal leaders uh or students about deteriorating deteriorating campus facilities? Yeah that's always a question even when I was
uh working as a development officer you know our I'll use example of our gymnasium you know was built when I was a kid uh when my dad was there as a as a dean of students. uh that gym still there, you know, could it be could it be used for another another uh bigger gym? Yeah, absolutely. So, those are uh
priorities of capital campaigns that are being worked on with federal dollars, private dollars or other other funding mechanisms. I appreciate that because I I know that um BIE operates on a pretty tight budget and I just want to understand what can be done in the short term to address what I see as urgent
maintenance and housing concerns. Um under the great American outdoor outdoors act the legacy restoration fund was created to address deferred maintenance across federal facilities. Now given the wellocumented infrastructural challenges at both
Haskell and um uh Southwest Indian poly techchnic why has the BIE not selected either of these institutions for any LRF funded projects to date? You know that's another great question. I I don't know the answer to that. Uh but looking in
how the the great American outdoor act uh which is I I I still scratch my head how how that funds tribal colleges when I think of outdoors I'm thinking of forest forest and outdoors lakes and streams and stuff and how that pertains to tribal college.
I'm not sure certain on that. But if that's a way how you know you as Congress funds that great. Uh but other ways what what other ways or what other acts can we look at to provide sustainable funding for tribal colleges. I I would I would respectfully urge you to look at that as well. Yeah. Thank you. Uh I appreciate you being here.
Appreciate your responses. Uh Mr. Chair, thank you for allowing me to wave on in on that. I yield back. Gentlemen is recognized. Thank you very much. And now the chair recognizes the gentleoman from Washington, Miss Randall, for her five minutes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank
you, Mr. Davis, for your testimony. Um, you know, as M colleague here said, um, BIE already operates on a a pretty tight budget and, um, you know, you just
mentioned now looking for additional um potential acts for additional revenue, sustainable revenue. And I I'm wondering if you think that you can keep the commitment that you have made and I know
that you are um strongly in support of of addressing the issues at Haskell to make that institution so much better and to rise to the expectations. Can you do that while also facing a 90% cut to the
budget for schools that's in the president's budget proposal? Yeah, like I stated before, ma'am, that's a those are great questions. I really thank you for your concern on that. But, you know, this as I stated before, you know, this is nothing new to the country. You know, as a former development officer, you
know, adjunct constructor, you know, uh raising money, um we've seen the the dips and the highs and lows of funding, you know, for a long time. uh my dad my dad being a college president for 12 years you know I I worked hand inand with him on a lot of those things. So um but we feel confident, you know, that
some of these fundings will will restored in some way mechanism because tribal college presidents, tribal leaders do a great job, you know, of working the hill, doing their thing, uh as you probably see them in the hallways every week, you know, they're very excellent at that. They're they're they're very professional at what they
do. So, but it's one thing to give a dollar for obvious reasons, but also looking at, you know, what's the return on those dollars when you look at the graduates? um even utilizing myself. You know, obviously I graduated a long time ago, but I think there's a little bit of success in some of that. You know, I
think I've tried my best to be something in in in my in my life and maybe be an example to somebody, you know, cuz I've had that growing up. You know, my mentors, you know, who went to tribal colleges or some only made it to eth grade, you know, those are my mentors, you know, uh some had degrees. My dad
was a got his doctorate degree, you know, through some help through programming, federal programming, you know, at Penn State um uh university. Um so these are the things I've I've well aware, but sometimes you have to mold and shape and be innovative on how we we
fund uh our schools across America. Yeah, thank you so much, Mr. Davis, for that answer. I I've watched um you know, the tribal leaders in my district do more with less time and again. I I worry though that that is not um living up to
our treaty obligation to ask tribal nations over and over and over again to do more with less. Um, I also am a fellow university development officer, um, and a former chair of the higher education and workforce development
committee in the Washington State Senate and and know that we have, um, very very very low uh, admission rates uh, and retention rates and graduation rates for Native American students across the country. And there are a lot of things
um that many uh states around the country as well as many Indian colleges have been doing to try and increase those numbers. Um what I have found in my experience is that um sometimes the hardest to reach students are also the
more most expensive to reach and support because the the things that work for every other student don't always work for the students that we're not already reaching. So, I'm at facing a 90% cut to um the budget as suggested in the
president's budget proposal tells me that there's not the investment in those students that they deserve. And I wonder, you know, what you think a 90% cut says
to native students who are considering college. You mentioned your family story. you have, you know, you and your father have both done incredible work. You mentioned that your your dad was able to complete his degree because of federal funding at a in you know at his
institute graduate institution and um as we are seeing funds cut over and over and over again not only um at the department of Indian education but also the department of education broadly. How what message does that send to students
who are worried about whether or not college is for them? Well, like I stated before, ma'am, um you know, it's nothing new. You know, we've been through the es and flows of funding and with Congress for a long time. Um and I've talked to a lot of uh older leaders, college
presidents who've retired. You know, we we we we become innovative. You know, we're we're resilient. you know, we find ways and we always will find ways to provide that funding mechanism, whether it's working the hill, you know, uh through our leadership, working through my office, working uh directly with you
as in support of each other and how we find, you know, long-term funding mechanisms, formulas for for areas. I even refer to this, you know, the Great American Outdoor Act. I mean, I I was never knew that was out there for uh funding, you know. Um you know, again, encouraging you as Congress to look at
other acts that are out there possibly for for long-term funding. So, so again, I think we just like we always do in the country, we we put our nose to the to the grindstoneone and we just work hard and uh we put that in prayer and um and we we produce good outcomes, you know.
So, these are just uh the continued ways how we how we conduct educational systems in the country. So I look forward to do to continue that working that doing everything I can within my power within my seat to do that and I and I hope you would urge you to do the same. Thank you. I thank the gentle lady
and the gentleman from Florida Mr. Fine is recognized for his five minutes. Thank you Mr. Chairman and and I appreciate us having this hearing today. long time ago uh before I got into politics, I worked with over a hundred tribes in my life uh with a different business that involved the pulling of
levers and the clinking of of coins. So uh so I I've had the privilege of visiting many Indian nations around the country and most of the states where they exist and seeing some of the unique challenges that they have and so it's an issue that's important to me and I was proud to be able to help some of our tribes create more economic
self-sufficiency through that. Um, but I I do have some questions. I didn't know, frankly, about um that these institutions even existed until I started to prepare for this hearing. I I just got elected to Congress a couple of months ago. And and my question is I read all of this and my question is why
do you think the Biden administration cared so little about these Indian students that it didn't actually take action? Because it seems like there's clearly been problems at these institutions for a long time. Just why why didn't they care about these Indian students? Uh great question. Uh sir, I I
I I I don't know. I came on board here, you know, on March 13th, um asked by uh Secretary Bergam, my former boss as governor, and one of the questions we first had in in our in our um exchange was, you know, how do we look at education systems in particular BIE,
knowing that some of these I I didn't know at the time that some of these reports are out, but now I know what I know. Um, you know, again, you know, we're here very concerning so forth. But, um, I can't answer the question of what the previous administrations did uh, years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years
ago. I can only control what's in my space. And my commitment to my people and my relatives is how do we provide a safe educational environment for good outcomes and graduation levels for for students across any country? Well, I just ask moving forward, you know, you can't fix problems in the future if you
don't know why they happened in the past. an interesting look into why it just didn't matter to the folks there to try to solve this problem. Um, a question though about solutions. Um, I looked up the budget of the Institute of Haskell. It's about I think the president's asked for $22 million. I did
the basic math. 700 students. That's about 31 $32,000 a year for a student. If they graduate in four years, it's a $120,000. So that's a a substantial amount of money. And I sometimes think outside the box. Would would we be better off I'm
just interested in your perspective in taking 700 students coming from reservations and saying look here's $120,000 to go to any college that you want in the United States. I mean might that we can try to fix all of these problems or
we can just say here's a scholarship take it to the University of Kansas or the University of Florida. It's certainly a lot less than $120,000 to get a degree at the University of Florida which is near where I represent. Have you have you thought about alternatives to just should the government be in the university business
or would we be better off taking the money and giving students choice and where to take it? Yeah, I I appreciate how you think outside the box because that's exactly what tribal colleges and tribal nations do. Some uh maybe where you come from in Florida, some have uh tribes that have uh maybe a little bit
more uh through obviously maybe gaming. Sounds like where you came from. So, you know, that's the value of those industries that provide scholarships. Uh, back when I went to college, uh, my my tribe did have scholarship fund. They still do have scholarship funds for higher ed. So, we take advantage of
that. So, I have, uh, what we call or what you call a school choice. I have a scholarship. I have some funding uh that I can go to a private school or a a state university or I can go home to a tribal college. So, those models exist as we speak. Um so that's a value again
of you know our tribes being innovative or thinking outside the box um of um of wanting um you know our students to go off off the reservation off the tribal answer to a university. So those those models certainly exist. Great. Well I look forward to exploring those with
you. My my focus is not for the benefit of an institution. My focus is on the benefit of the students because these 700 students um if they are getting a problem education, which it sounds like they were based on what I've read, we're not so we're not only spending a lot of
money, but we're not giving these kids what they need to be successful in life. And so that should be our focus, not how do we preserve institutions, but how do we better the life of our children. So I thank you for the work that you're doing. If there's anything I can do, uh please let me know. And with that, I yield back. Thank you. I thank the
gentleman from Florida. you led to my my ideas. So, but the the ranking member has a couple of questions and then I'll finish it up. Okay. So, ranking member, thank you so much, Mr. Chair, for your indulgence here. And thank you, Mr. Davis. Clearly, your leadership, your
dedication, your heart are all in the success of our of these institutions and our our tribal students. um creative ways to fund schools, prayer, independence, indiv in innovation, those are important, but I will state once again the US government has made treaty
commitments um to our tribal community support the education of our indigenous students and I feel strongly that we are failing to deliver on that promise if we are cutting a budget that is already anemic by 90%.
Do you have available alternative tools to what you've talked about with alternative um funding streams? Like what else are you thinking about doing to help the success of these students? I very much appreciate ranking member Adams's points that you supported that
the school environment and how people feel when they're in that school environment does impact their success. So what other options do you have? And I I will just ask you to be rather succinct because I have one other question for you.
Another great question, ma'am. Another great comment. You know, um looking at, you know, this pending legislative bill, like I said, I haven't read it yet. Uh but allowing tribes or excuse me, uh like Haskell to be more innovative. I think what I've looked at sometimes in the governance of of uh some of our
school systems are really constrained. a lot of red tape, you know, a lot of uh rules and regs. I I you know, how can you fundamentally, you know, teach an effective way? How can you build out better budgets? How can you allow uh other funding mechanisms to be, you know, uh sourced into that school
system? So, those are things I we really want to look into of how more sovereignty is given to these schools as as as is the case here too. Uh and the governance, the governance structure, I think that's in key. You know, I'm a big big believer in self-governance. I just am you know uh I taugh I was taught that
from my father um versus a a governmentrun institution I think those are things that are really being seriously looked at uh across Indian country so those are just examples of how I would look at you know different ways of doing that so what I'm noting the schools and sending your students to another place with voucher- like
programs is that fair yeah that's fair that's a fair question something that we've we've heard a lot of clear from in the country you know through through uh comments and my visits is that you know Our schools are are sacred. You know, our children are sacred. So, are our schools perfect? No. You know, is is schools across America perfect? No,
they're not. There's always improvement for improvement, whether it's data sets, outcomes, graduation rates, funding. You know, we can go on and on uh about these systems across America. No, thank you. And I will just say what I think is obvious. You are in an impossible
situation here. You clearly deeply care about these institutions and yet we are almost eliminating the budget. So, we cannot expect miracles here and even with optimized management, governance, all these things. Um, I believe we need to support you and your leadership and
I've heard across the aisle here a commitment to doing that. Um, I I look forward to our working together with you to live up to our tribal obligations, our treaty obligations, and making sure that these learning environments are actually meaningful and supportive and
restorative for these students who deserve a future. You sitting here before us is very inspiring. We want other students from our indigenous communities to be here leading and making sure that there's a vibrant and
successful future for our tribes. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you. I thank the gentleman. Uh the gentle lady uh from North Carolina is given two minutes for her second. Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Davis. I'm sorry that Mr. Fine left. uh he said
he'd only been here for a short time, but I wanted to uh just share with him and the committee that under President Biden, it's a little disingenuous to say that President didn't the former president didn't do anything uh but but
but he did uh the TCU did receive $367.3 million in addition uh to the funds that they received through COVID. So, uh, we we have been supporting the prior administration has been supporting and I do chair the bipartisan H.B.CU caucus
with Representative French Hill and we have some co-chairs on the Senate side as well. So, I'm very interested in these schools, but I don't think we can continue to uh underfund and overlook these institutions and then turn around and say that we care about equity in higher education. I know for some people
they think equity is a bad word. I think it's a good word, but but it doesn't add up. uh 30% of TCU students report facing food insecurity. These students are are working hard um every single day to break the cycles of poverty uh with empty stomachs. And I'm trying to
understand Mr. Davis uh your position and the authority that you have. And I wanted to ask if you're willing to offer suggestions to your superior. You know, if you fail to plan, then you plan to fail. And we've continued to ask about the 90% and whether you want to admit
that or not. And I don't know, maybe it has to do with the administration that you're in, but 90% that means that's just about all of your budget. And I was a a college professor for 40 years, an administrator as well, and I understand the difficulties and the challenges that
you have trying to run these schools. You did say that you didn't know about the other schools, but I would just suggest uh that you have a conversation with whoever your superior is or whoever who's who who who's reporting to you uh to offer some suggestions about at least
talking with other challenge other chancellors and presidents of these schools. So since we're talking about the legacy and so forth that I think that would help you at least get a broader perspective and maybe you can answer a little more directly some of the questions that have been asked
because I don't think you have and I hope hopefully you're you're just not in a position where you just don't think you can say what you really feel. I don't I can't say what you feel. But I can tell you what I know. If you take 90% out of anybody's salary, you only
have 10%. You can't run a school like that. And certainly I hope that you are not thinking about closing. I think these schools must survive. Uh education is power, knowledge is power, and that's what makes the difference in lives and communities. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. I thank the
gentleman. Mr. Davis, I I'll turn to my questions. Now, are you familiar with a a college by the name of Embry Riddle? Uh, say that again, sir. I'm sorry. Amberry, I'm familiar familiar with a college named Embry Riddle.
They're they're a big aviation school. Aviation school. Mhm. Yeah. I bring it up because they they marched to a different drummer. Okay. They take no federal funds. They're all private. Okay. And why I'm bringing that up is they've become one of the top aviation
schools in the world. In fact, as far as fighter or you know, as pilots go, they're either one, two, or three. And they're two of the three because they have two campuses. one in Daytona, Florida, and one in Prescuit, Arizona. Okay. Now, one of the other things I'm
going to bring up to you is is is a little story. And why I'm going to tell the story is because somebody was dreaming and I want you to dream after this with me. Okay? So, Wyoming, I'm from Wyoming originally, um could not keep doctors
and and dentists, health professionals. So, they had minerals and they had excise tests on it. and they hired some consultants to help build them some buildings, dental buildings and some medical buildings. But instead of doing that,
the consultants said, "Don't build dinosaurs." And the dinosaurs were actually the buildings, okay? They said, "Get your allow your students to go wherever they may, and then once they get in, help them out." So, for example, my sister
went to medical school at the University of Utah. They paid their whole way. She paid they paid their whole way through and gave her a $20,000 stipen to live off of. Very year she did that, she had to come back. Okay. So, it was very well planned out. Very interesting. Okay.
Wouldn't you say? Now, why I'm going to ask you now is dream. If if you look at school, this is a perfect time for changing of direction. I think the gentleoman from North Carolina said it. I think Mr. fine senator from Florida and I think the
ranking member said it. Okay. So, close your eyes and tell me what you see Haskell looking like. What do you see? I see a a brand new campus. I see my my stadium, which broke my heart. Um, as a runner there, um, the
iconic stadium there. Um, a veteran cemetery by the way, a vet a veteran stadium by the way. um dilapitated. The track had you know weeds and you know just the the bleachers were you know
everything was closed it made me cry you know it was it hurt. So when I think things like that, my mom's uh you know uh dormatory, my dormatory, you know, all these things that really need to be upgraded, uh I see that. But I also see
more importantly, you know, students that are walking around happy, secure, safe, energized, um vibrant, um culturally happy, you know, honed in on their cultural and and their language. That's what I see. Um
that's how that's my dream for Haskell and all schools across in the country you know is that these models have to fit us whether it's a lot college or a Ishanab or a Navajo these things are very very um personal to us because of
the nature of how we teach and and because you know prior to that and we know the stories of boarding schools you know we we all know the history you know we we've been through that process a lot uh the horrific stories of boarding schools uh but we today as now sitting
here in front of you with your leadership. We all have a collective opportunity here uh committee members to do something different to really work together to brainstorm to dream to dream of what to dream of what our our schools could
be like to be better to be safe you know that's that's our dream and I and I hope you would open your eyes and your hearts and to look at that model work with us work with me and I promise you I'll work with our tribal leaders, our tribal college presidents to see what that
looks like. You know, that's my commitment. So, I think this is a perfect time right now to reset that button of what this really looks like for the future of education across any country. I really do. That's my dream. So I I I see something in the middle here that really is a problem for both
sides, both from the US side and from the Native American side. And it's the world's sovereignty. Okay? You you have you you have to have a defined definition here. You can't be sovereign on this and then just say, "No, we're not sovereign on that." It
doesn't work that way. And I think you're caught in the middle because of a government. we can't we're afraid to talk about this conversation. I think we have to define that first. That's my biggest key. Number two is then we have to get you back to
dreaming. I would look at at least from my view seeing what I've seen here from the problems that are at Haskell. I would think the first thing I would want to try to do is try to get housing. There's lots of different ways to go
housing. And I would I would actually probably uh leverage that. Okay. And and why I say that is is I watched a a 24 unit hotel being put up in two weeks
on at four weeks. They were seeing they actually had guests. They were pre-made up in Las Vegas. It's the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. I sat there and filmed it and I shouldn't have been filming it because I was supposed to be somewhere else. But that's how
amazing this is. And I think if you you start with a home base with where kids feel safe, they have units that they can that they're comfortable in, you can make anything work.
Okay. I I just the opportunities that you have I think are are so great. But I think you have to have that vision first. You put that vision down and the gentle lady from North Carolina said it, if you don't plan, then you're going to plan to
fail. And I I I think we're just rolling over and over and over again and we're not addressing the situation properly. That make sense? I agree. You know when you talk about sovereignty you know sovereignty begins with yourself and how
that begins is through education. So I became self- sovereign through education through my degree at Haskell. That's how I became self- sovereign where I now I don't have to really depend on federal aid or somebody. Do I need a hand up at times? Absolutely. We
all do. We all need to do do that. but through my education, through my degree, through this this this piece of paper that that we get when we graduate, that's sovereign to me. And I've and I've shared that many many times, thousands of times with with a lot of the the the the students that I've mentored over the years. Um, having that
self- sovereignty now, you understand what it means to have your own, you can call your own shots. You're you're in control of your destination. How does that translate to in the country with with with the the the the the parallel of our treaties? That's that's where it
it gets a little complicated, you know. Are we self- sovereign? Yes, we are. Do we do does does Congress adhere to our tribal tribal treaties? Yes and no. You know, it just depends, you know. So, it gets complex, right? But for me, you know, and why we're sitting here, the
key to sovereignty, the key to self sovereignty is education. You're you're obviously very self- sovereign as leaders. You're educated. You're elected. You know, you you control your destiny. And do you need help at times? Absolutely. We all do. You know, we all need that from time to
time. Um do we face challenges? Yes, we do. Um but we help each other. That's what country does. That's what country's done for me. It's always supporting me. I support them back. Same from the communities, the districts you come from. You see families that that need help. You see families that are doing
well. you know, we all live in that space. U but how do you blend that together? How do you share some of these resources, you know, across uh where you live? These are things that you all face as leaders. I'm no different. I'm no different. But at the end of the day, we have to create a a space that that
environment, you know, through education like Haskell, like Sippy, you know, and these education other education institutions to have that freedom to be self-s sovereign. So again, I'm I'm I'm I'm really looking forward to working with you. Um, I hope to come back to this committee and and bring better
news, uh, you know, better outcomes, you know, um, and I'm I'm very confident we will. Well, we're oversight, so expect to be given an invitation. The gentleoman from Arizona is going to go and then I'll finish out with our final comments. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank our witness for being here today. The Bureau of Indian Education School System is a critical institution that provides education for roughly 46,000 students at 183 schools across the United States. These schools are essential to supporting native youth
and upholding tribal sovereignty. Unfortunately, chronic staffing shortages and inadequate funding have left many BIE schools in disrepair, putting the health and safety of students at risk. All students have a right to safe and healthy classrooms and
we must ensure that these rights are extended to native students. However, instead of addressing the decades of deferred maintenance and repair backlog that have weakened educational outcomes for native students, this administration wants to make extreme cuts to BIE staffing and funding. We've already seen
that Doge has targeted Haskell and Southwestern Indian Polytechnic Institute with drastic staff reductions which according to the Native American Rights Fund devastated operations at Haskell and SIPI and undermine BIE operation operated schools across the
nation. And now the administration wants to cut funding for BIE post-secondary programs by almost 90%. This would include critical funding for facilities management and infrastructure improvement across BIE. Despite what this administration may think, slashing
funds and dismantling critical government agencies is not the way to support Haskell students. The federal government has a legal and a moral obligation to uphold tribal sovereignty and education. That means fully funding tribal schools and colleges, not
abandoning them. Mr. Mr. Davis, does the federal government have a trust obligation to ensure that HA hasll and SIPI continue to exist to serve native students? Yes, we do. And would that trust responsibility continue if Haskell
and SIPI were taken out of the BIE? Uh, reframe the question, ma'am. I'm sorry. Would even if they were taken out, would we expect that trust responsibility to continue? I'm not sure the uh question I'm taking out. I don't sorry I don't understand
that. Could you expand then I'll try this reframing. Could you expand on how Haskell and SIPI would continue to serve Indian students and uphold that trust responsibility if they were to incur the administration's 90% in cuts. Oh, I see what you're Oh, I understand. Okay.
Sorry about that. Yeah. You know, like I stated before, ma'am, uh before you came, you know, the cuts throughout in the country through the my time, my tenure doing this almost 20 years now. Um we've seen cuts. We've seen uh increases. Um we've seen it all. Uh but
we've always been resilient. We've always been prepared for these cuts, uh challenges. Uh we're very resilient, like I said, uh being innovative. And I think that's the the value of this of this um of this setting today is how do we collectively look at you know
long-term sustainable funding mechanisms for in the country in particular higher education institutions and our K- through2 schools. While I of course appreciate your commitment to resilience and the fact that you've been proactively preparing for this, Mr.
Davis, I believe that Haskell, SIPI, and any college would be unable to serve their students after a 90% budget cut, and it would result in us absolutely failing native students. I will intend to pursue language in any bill that changes the administration of Haskell
and SIPI. This language would clarify that adequate funding is necessary to meet the federal government's trust responsibility to tribes and the Native American community. I will submit that language to the department for your review. Can you think of any reason uh Mr. Davis that the Department of
Interior or BIE would not support such language? Well, we'll certainly support what's what's mandated for us, but I you know, looking at um Representative Mann's bill that's being introduced here, I think today or I'm not sure when. I think
that's that's certainly an opportunity for your body to really look at not just with Haskell, maybe other institutions of what that funding mechanism would look like. Okay. So I think there's a great opportunity here again with with your your your uh your leadership here and with the proposed bill that's that's
being uh introduced here. So look forward to working with on that. Thank you. And you already know well the Doge cuts have already hit faculty and staff very hard. What is the department doing right now to ensure that there are enough faculty and staff to provide a world-class education to Indian students
at Haskell? Yeah, fortunately when when those things were happen, you know, we we we uh I I personally asked for exemptions and we got that and now we're looking at other jobs that are opening. So I know a number of our institutions that received those uh uh those um
employee cuts are being advertised. So that's exciting uh on on those fronts, too. So we're we're getting back uh some of those employees who wish to come back. Uh but other jobs are out there as well for our institutions uh as we speak. Thank you. I know I'm out of time, so
I'll yield back. Thank you so much. I think gentle lady, just one couple more questions and Mr. Davis, and you've been so gracious with your time and and your answers. Treaty is uh an obligation from both sides, right? Is that is that true?
Well, it depends, you know. Uh I think uh I can only speak for my treaty where I come from, the Fort Larmy treaty. You know, obviously our large millions millions and millions of acres were were given up, you know, with those promises. Oh, I get that. I get that. I get that.
But my point is a treaty is two people coming to an agreement, right? And trust is a series of promises kept. I've always said that. Okay. So, in a treaty, both sides have to keep their word. Both. Okay. So, there's a lot of mistrust right now because I see the
federal government not doing their job. I see some of the tribes not doing their job. give you one of them. Okay. In Arizona, we allowed for Indian gaming. It came to Arizona. The state took it up as a proposition initiative. We're
initiative state and we passed it. Now, part of the supposition of that group was that no new casinos would come about in Phoenix proper. What happened is there was one of the tribes, the Toho, who actually were
doing it. They they signed said they would do nothing but they engaged with this middleman. They did it behind closed doors. Now what ended up happening is is that we caught them. They got caught. I had all their all
their minutes of their uh tribal councils and everything. But then they went to court and they said, "Oh, we're sovereign immunity." Okay. So once again, there's mistrust on both sides. And that's why I really wanted you to try to dream a little bit. You're not
gonna throw money away, right? If something's going wrong, you don't It would be stupid to throw money away, wouldn't it? Would you agree? Well, you know, it's a great question, great comment. Um, state by state, tribe by tribe, everything's different. We're, you know, you
referenced Arizona, you referenced Wyoming, where I come from, the Dakotas. You know, we're all same but different. you know, how legislative bodies, you know, do business with the tribes, that's their their preview. Um, no different where I come from. You know, I I did two gaming compacts during my
tenure with two governors, you know, um, and that was just the good old song and dance of of of a deal, right? Uh, through federal policy that's allowable between states and tribes. So, there's many examples out there, uh, as you know, uh, Mr.
chairman of how tribes and states uh the federal government work together or they don't work together. Uh that involves treaties. I mean that's the ever that's the everlasting process that I learned back in the 90s when I was real young. I'm in it now. I'm in it today. Uh these
things get complex. Uh but the best way to navigate through these things is having these these venues to talk about it. you know, I've engaged with a number of tribes, you know, leadership, um, engagement. That was a big commitment why I I came on with Secretary Bergam
was because of his leadership, because of his value of lead, listening, following through. Is everything perfect? Are we ever going to get what we want? You you know that as you debate, you know, a lot of your bills throughout the Congress, you know, um, and as a common citizen, that frustrates
us, you know, but it it's part of governance, you know, it's part of, uh, America. It's part of any country, you know, but we as leaders uh do the best we can, the best interests of our of uh in the country and your constituents, but it certainly u has its moments.
Yeah. And so the things that you referenced certainly have its moments. So what last thing, last point, national uh uh national congress of American Indians, that means annually, right? Wouldn't this be a a perfect storm for them to be
involved with uh the federal government along with Haskell University and Cippy? Yeah, certainly. You know, NCI has been around a long time. I just spoke with them uh a couple weeks back up in Connecticut. Had very positive engagement. You know, they're all concerned. But you also have other uh
organizations like Coalition of Large Land Bases. You know, they're they're very up and cominging. They're very strong. You have other uh associations uh Midwest tribes uh of in the country. You have other uh alliances down in the southwest uh down Oklahoma other
alliances. So you have a number of very strong leaders in in country that have their their associations. Even one up in the affiliated tribes up in um uh up in the Spokane area. I was just up there, you know, that's a huge fishering uh uh
uh and and river systems up there too. uh that is very very uh unique and powerful up there too. So uh all these associations have a vested interest in in the country obviously education whether it's your tribal colleges or schools at home but in this case Haskell
as well. So well I got to tell you thank you so very much your time is invaluable. Um I want to thank the witness for his valuable testimony and the members for their questions. Uh the members of the committee may have some additional questions for you. Uh,
and we ask that you will respond to these in writing. Under House Natural Resources Committee Rule three, members must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5:00 PM on Friday, June 27th. Hearing record will be held open for 10 business days from these for these responses. There's no further
business. This committee submitted