This [snorts] subcommittee on Workforce protections will come to order. I note that Aquar is present without objection. The chair is authorized to call a recess at any time. And I appreciate everybody's uh willingness to hang with us here because we were conducting votes
on the floor. But we have a very exciting hearing today. And the topic of today's hearing is to examine the current state of the boxing industry and show how HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali
American Boxing Revival Act, can help usher in a new golden age for the sport. For most of the 20th century, boxing stood at the heart of American sports and culture. It gave us legends like Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack
Dempsey, and Muhammad Ali. And I should also note from the seventh congressional district in Pennsylvania, Larry Holmes. We recognize exceptional boxers like world champion Christy Martin, who was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in the first year that women
were on the ballot. We also honor more recent champions like the great English boxer Ricky the Hitman Hatton who un whose untimely passing reminds us of the lasting bond between fighters and the fans across the world. These boxers were
champions in the ring and icons outside of it. Boxing has long been a symbol of grit, determination, and the will to overcome impossible odds. Qualities that are at the heart of the American spirit. But today, we must face a hard truth. Boxing is failing to meet the high
standards of American sports. What was once a respected and unified sport became fragmented, plagued by inconsistent standards, weak enforcement, and a troubling lack of accountability. Too often, fighters are pushed into dangerous matches without
proper medical oversight. The result is a system that too frequently exploits the athletes instead of protecting them. And that's why, again, it's a very appropriate topic for our subcommittee on workforce protections. All of that must change. Professional boxing needs
clear, consistent standards that safeguards fighters health and restore integrity to the profession. As we learn more about the long-term dangers of CTE and performance-enhancing substances, we should honor fighters courage with a system that protects their health and
safeguards the sport. That's the purpose of HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act. Building on the foundation of the Professional Bocking Boxing Safety Act of 1996, this bipartisan legislation will bring real change to
the sport by putting fighters first. This bill establishes unified boxing organizations or UBOS to set uniform safety and fairness standards. Under these organizations, boxers would receive regular medical exams and routine MRI screenings with additional
precautions for boxers over 40. Medical personnel will be present at every match. A strict, transparent anti-doping policy will also be enforced. This bill would set new industry-wide standards for medical insurance coverage and set a
floor for per round pay for boxers. Whether a boxer competes inside or outside a UBO, fair pay and medical protection will no longer be optional. They will be the standard. This is about rebuilding trust, protecting athletes,
and reigniting the passion that once made boxing a cornerstone of American life. More importantly, it is about ensuring the sport doesn't sacrifice the health and dignity of its athletes. Boxing can be great again. It can
inspire, uplift, and unify. HR 4624 can help revive a proud tradition while ensuring every fighter from the first bell to the final round is treated with dignity and respect. This is great legislation and I want to commend uh
those who are joining us here today as champions of this legislation in Congress. you and the work that you're doing embodies America's fighting spirit and this administration, President Trump and this Congress who are all fighting to make America great again want to join
you in starting with that work and improving our boxing system right here in the United States. We also would like to enter into the record six letters in support of HR 4624 for the following organizations and individuals. The
International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Boxing Champion Mike Tyson, the Association of Boxing Commissions, Tom Brown, President of TGB Promotions, PPB, PPG Paints Arena, the home of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and also Chartway
Arena in Virginia. Again, want to thank everybody for being here, not only my colleagues who are going to give brief testimony, uh, but also our panelists. And with that, I yield back to the ranking member for an opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for your testimony
today. When Republicans first noticed us of today's hearing, I was immediately excited. I have long been a fan of professional boxing and mixed martial arts, and I was hopeful that we could have a bipartisan discussion about
revitalizing a sport that I love. I came to this issue not as a legislator but as someone who admires the courage and the craft of fighters who put their bodies on the line in the pursuit of greatness. At the turn of the century, Congress passed two landmark pieces of
legislation to protect and support American boxers. In 1996, Congress passed the Professional Boxing Safety Act or PPSA, which outlined the safe the health and safety provisions and mandated state athletic commissions to
oversee all professional boxing events. In 2000, Congress strengthened PPSA with the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. The Ali Act was designed to clean up the business side of boxing after decades of
corruption that harmed boxers livelihoods and integrity of the sport. It required better finance financial disclosures, increased transparency of ranking and title decisions and limited conflict of interest so that a single
company or individual could not do could not both control a boxer's contract and access to titles. This was meant to stop promoters from demanding that boxers sign away their entire career just to have a chance at a title. In practice,
the Ali Acts provisions helped give boxers more information and leverage to negotiate for a fairer share of the money that their fights generated and free themselves from any coercive and restrictive contract terms.
We should build on these successes and take time to explore other critical issues such as the long-term cost of brain injury and the need for athletes in other combat sports like MMA to enjoy these protections. My hope is that we can use this hearing to discuss these
issues thoughtfully and productively. However, my fear is that we are likely to focus on just one bill, HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, and consider moving it
quickly. But I urge my colleagues to take a moment to pause and hold two things in our minds at once. First, there are some genuinely promising provisions in the Revival Act. For example, a national $150
per round minimum payment would lessen financial strain on boxers who are still finding their footing in the sport. The bill would also set a national $25,000 floor for insurance coverage that the
PPSA currently requires for every fight. And fortunately, there are sections of the Revival Act that raise serious questions about who will actually control the future of boxing. It would remove guard rails that prevent influential influential promoters from
controlling the industry and forcing boxers into contracts that they do not benefit from. This legislation could also allow major corporations to completely take over the sport, leaving boxers without the leverage or the
ability to advocate for themselves and their physical and financial health. These provisions prioritize Goliath to the detriment of David. Boxers who put their bodies on the line deserve to fight in an industry that pays them
well, values their health and safety, and does not make them vulnerable to economic exploitation. While I do not entirely while not entirely harmful, this bill as crafted gives more power to promoters
and big corporations than to boxers. This is why many professional boxers are speaking out against it, including Evandra Holyfield, Asser de La Hoya, Karissa Shields, Jake B, Jake Paul, and
Nikico Ali Walsh. I'm not here to reflectively support or oppose HR 4624. I'm here to ask important questions to everyone involved, the promoters, the regulators, and especially the corporations that stand to gain the most
because we have to make sure that any revival of boxing does not come at the expense of the very athletes we say we are here to protect. I want this hearing to be the start of a longer serious bipartisan conversation about
how we support our boxers and bring investment into a sport without sacrificing the necessary anti- monopoly firewalls that prevent American boxers from being exploited by powerful corporation corporate actors and foreign investors. I look forward to our
discussion today and I yield. Thank you to the ranking member and uh it is a pleasure to be joined by a bipartisan uh duo of our colleagues and we look forward to sharing uh the bipartisan spirit that they are bringing
to us as we actually move forward uh with this legislation. And pursuant to committee rule 8C, all members can insert written testimony and statements into the record, may do so by submitting them to the committee electronically in Microsoft Word by 5:00 p.m. 14 days
after this hearing. Without objections, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous materials noted during the hearing to be submitted to the official record. I note that uh some of our colleagues who are not permanent members of the SIB committee may be
waving on for the purposes of today's hearing. And with that, I will introduce uh our two panelists. First, we have Congressman Brian Jack, who represents Georgia's third congressional district. Our second witness is Congressman Steven Horford, who represents Nevada's fourth
congressional district. We appreciate both of you being here today, and you're fully aware of the procedures and testimony and the lighting system and timing. So, I don't need to go into that. Uh, and with that, we'll recognize Representative Jack, >> Chairman McKenzie, Ranking Member Omar,
Chairman Wahlberg, Ranking Member Scott, Chairman Comr, and Representatives Mesmer, Growthman, Miller, Fine, Stevens, Allen, Casar, and Takano. Thank you for welcoming my testimony today. I'm honored to submit HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival
Act, for your consideration. I authored and introduced this legislation, which is bipartisan, with Representative Shereice Davids, a talented athlete and a chief deputy whip within the House Democratic Caucus. Professional boxing in America has an incredibly rich and storied history. It's a sport that
demands courage, perseverance, and determination from its champions, and its heroes have inspired greatness, ignited dreams, and forged generations of memories and tradition. 39 years before Jackie Robinson bravely broke barriers in Major League Baseball, Jack
Johnson, the Galveistston Giant, reigned as the first black heavyweight champion of the world from 1908 to 1915. Decades before the New York Knicks were formed, thousands of spectators crammed into Madison Square Garden to see Jack Dempsey fight. Many of you may recall storied bouts during boxing's golden era
like Leon Spinx vers Muhammad Ali in 1978, Marvin Haggler versus Thomas Hearns in 1985, and Mike Tyson's championship fights in in the 1990s. Unfortunately, American boxing has since faced a steady decline. 37 years have passed since an American won a
heavyweight gold medal at the Olympics, and the majority of boxing's premier fights are now overseas, many, many time zones away. In recent years, HBO World Championship Boxing and Showtime Championship Boxing, Long Home to The Greatest Fights, ceased operations. Just
a few months ago, ESPN's contract with a leading boxing promotion, ended without renewal. Today, we submit legislation before you that will fix boxing's downturn and revive this great American sport. For over a century, individual states enacted legislation to regulate
professional boxing. But the patchwork of regulations without uniform minimum standards led to widespread exploitation and rampant corruption. Since the 1950s, Congress has considered legislation to address these problems. And after multiple attempts in the 1990s, Congress
finally acted, passing the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act in 2000. As a result, boxing is the only professional sport regulated by Congress. The Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act amends the
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and preserves and protects the original Ali Act in its entirety. First, our legislation clarifies ambiguities in current law that have stifled innovation and investment into the sport. This bill allows for the creation of alternative
systems called unified boxing organizations, otherwise known as UBOS's, that will provide professional boxers with more protections, better pay, and greater protections. The UBO system will not replace the current structure involving sanctioning organizations. Instead, UBOS's will be a
separate parallel system to the sanctioning organizations that will provide boxers with the freedom to choose which of the two systems works best for them. Additionally, this bill will return premier boxing events to our country, spurring economic growth and success across host communities. For
this reason, the operators of many of America's greatest venues endorsed this bipartisan legislation, including State Farm Arena in Atlanta, Georgia, Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York. Target Center in US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Little Caesars Arena in Detroit, Michigan,
Crypto.com Arena, in Los Angeles, California, Moody Center in Austin, Texas, and Chartway Arena in Norol, Virginia. And just yesterday, this legislation received a letter of support from the 1.3 million members of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, one of America's largest unions. To
improve the safety and well-being of boxers, this legislation establishes a minimum payment per round of $150 for professional boxers, aligning a patchwork of existing state laws to a uniform standard that will protect boxers from exploitation, especially in
the early stages of their career. Additionally, this act strengthens existing health and safety protections for boxers to extend their careers and earning potential. Finally, to safeguard the integrity of the sport, this legislation implements strict anti-bedding policies and restricts
UBOS's from charging boxers fees for placement in rankings or participation in championship matches. Sadly, earlier this week, super middleweight champion of the world, Terrence Bud Crawford, was stripped of his championship belt for allegedly failing to pay fees to the sanctioning organization. Our
legislation prohibits this practice for boxers who elect to join a UBO. In closing, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act provides us with a chance to make history. Once enacted, this legislation will be celebrated for decades to come. So, let's join together
in a spirit of bipartisanship and revive one of America's greatest sports in the name of one of America's greatest athletes, Muhammad Ali. I yield back. >> Thank you. Our second witness is Congressman Steven Hersford, and we will now turn to you.
>> Thank you to the Workforce Protection Subcommittee Chair, Mr. McKenzie, and to the ranking member, Miss Omar, and to the full committee chair, Mr. Wahlberg, and the ranking member, Mr. Scott. uh as well as all the other members for allowing me to testify along with my
colleague before the subcommittee today in support of creating more opportunities for American boxers. And I will keep my remarks brief uh but I am here in support. Why am I here today? That answer is
simple. Las Vegas is the undisputed fight capital of the world, and our community knows better than most what boxing means. Many of the sport's most iconic bouts took place under the neon glow of the Nevada desert. I remember
the legendary Haggler Hearns fight at Caesar's Palace in 1985. The fight that electrified the nation and showcased boxing at its very best. This sport is woven into the fabric and culture of the
silver state. It is intertwined history dates back to March 17th, 1897 when Nevada hosted the very first legalized boxing match in the United States. That heritage continues to grow
stronger with every event. In fact, as of 2023, researchers at the University of Nevada Las Vegas estimated that one in four workers in Las Vegas and nearly 30% of the city's GDP is tied to
recreation and entertainment services, including sports. Out of town visitors attending sporting events generated nearly $2 billion in direct economic output in fiscal year 2022 for our
community. UNLV forecasts more than 12% growth in performing arts and spectre sports industries by 2030. That's 3,000 new and permanent jobs. So, in other words, when sports thrive, Nevada's
economy thrives and thousands of workers feel the impact. But it has now been 25 years since Congress enacted the original Ali Act to confront corruption, exploitation, and dangerous gaps in boxing. That law landmark law made a
meaningful difference. But the world of professional boxing has changed dramatically since its passage. Today in this room, we have an obligation to evaluate where the system is working and where it is clearly falling short for
fighters. And that is why HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, is so important. This bill allows a new modernized business model to exist alongside the current sanctioning body
system, a system that many across the sport agree is not adequately serving boxers or fans. HR 4624 creates room for innovation, competition, and expanded opportunities. It establishes a new
pathway that can increase stability, um, elevate safety standards, and ultimately give fighters more control over their career. These reforms move the sport in the right direction. But at the same time, I want to be candid. Uh,
the bill is not perfect and there are areas that deserve a closer look. These concerns should be part of a bipartisan dialogue as the legislation moves forward. I urge all of you together with Representative Jack and myself and the bill's other co-sponsors to listen
closely today to the expert panel of witnesses and to identify what works and pinpoint areas that need refinement. By doing so, we can craft a final product that strengthens protections for boxers while fostering a healthier, more
competitive boxing landscape. Congressional action transformed professional boxing. a generation ago. Today, we have the opportunity and the responsibility to act again. If we do so thoughtfully, collaboratively, and with
a commitment to the athletes at the center of this sport, we can help usher in a revival worthy of Muhammad Ali's name and legacy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. Thank you to Congressman Jack and Horford for coming
to testify before the subcommittee on workforce protections today as we discuss HR4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. We share your interest in fostering greater investment and innovation in American boxing. Ultimately, we know
that will lead to greater competition, more people involved, and increasing the abilities of American boxers. So this legislation and this hearing is just the start of our efforts to make American boxing great again and we appreciate you being here today. With that, we will now
seat the second panel and we will pause for a minute as the panel gets situated. I'll ask those witnesses to come forward at this time. All right. Well, now that the second panel of witnesses has been seated, I want to welcome all of you. Our first
witness is Mr. Lawrence Epstein, senior executive vice president and chief operating officer of the Ultimate Fighting Championship from Las Vegas, Nevada. Our second witness is Ms. Lonnie Ali, widow of Muhammad Ali and co-founder of the Ali Muhammad Ali
Center in Louisville or from Louisville, Kentucky. Our third witness is Mr. Patrick English, the principal partner and owner of Dines and English LLC from Clifton, New Jersey. Our final witness is Mr. Andy Foster, the executive
officer of the California State Athletic Commission from Sacramento, California. Again, welcome to all of you. We want to thank you for being here and we look forward to your testimony. I should note that pursuant to committee rules, I will ask each of you to limit your oral testimony to a threeminut summary of
written testimony which you have provided. As committee members may have questions for each of you, the clock will countdown from 3 minutes. Pursuant to committee rule 8D, the committee practice, however, is not to cut off uh any individual and their testimony until
you reach the five minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information to the subcommittee. And with that, I will recognize our first witness today, Mr. Epstein. You are recognized for your testimony.
>> Thank you very much. Uh, Chairman McKenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. My name is Lawrence Epste and I'm
the senior executive vice president and chief operating officer of the UFC, the world's premier mixed martial arts organization. I've worked in combat sports for nearly three decades. First as a private practice lawyer representing clients across combat sports, and now as an executive with the UFC, where we have spent many years and
invested billions of dollars building a global sport that has benefited thousands of athletes, many local communities, and hundreds of millions of fans. I deliver these remarks today as a proud boxing fan. My father first introduced me to the sport in its golden era of the
1970s and 1980s when I watched American boxing legends like Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Leonard, and marvelous Marvin Haggler captivate millions of fans with their otherworldly courage, determination, and athleticism. And I'm honored to sit here today alongside Lonnie Ali, co-founder of the Muhammad
Ali Center and guardian of Muhammad's legacy to discuss our support of this legislation. It is undeniable that professional boxing has suffered a steady decline in popularity in the United States. The sports evolution and growth have been stifled, reducing opportunities for
boxers and undermining the fan experience. The Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act can reverse this decline by creating a new space for in for an innovative model that will enhance and grow the industry and create more choices and opportunities for
boxing. This bill establishes a framework for alternative systems called unified boxing organizations or UBOS's which would provide professional boxers with more career opportunities, better pay, and greater health and safety protections. UBOs's would not replace,
and I want to repeat this, UBOS would not replace sanction organizations. Instead, UBOS's would exist as a separate parallel system. Boxers would have the freedom to choose between the two systems. sanction organization model that currently exists or the UBO model is whatever one is best for them. They
will be able to choose. UBO boxers would benefit from additional health and safety protections including enhanced comprehensive medical exams, more licensed physicians and ambulance units present at each event and perhaps most importantly health coverage for injuries sustained during training which corrects
a massive deficiency in the current system. UBOS's would also offer independently administered anti-doping programs with no notice testing both in and out of competition to ensure that no boxer has an unfair and dangerous advantage over
his or her opponent. UBOs's would also maintain strict anti-bedding policies to safeguard the integrity of competition. Beyond UBOS's, this bill would also provide benefits to boxers fighting in the sanctioning organization system. The bill establishes a national minimum
payment of $150 per round for all professional boxers. The Association of Boxing Commissioners believes this change will help boxers since six states have minimums less than $150 per round, while most states have absolutely no minimum at all. And lastly, through this
legislation, all professional boxers would have access to better health insurance, including a firsttime national minimum of $25,000 of coverage for injuries sustained during a bout, higher than the current minimum in 43 states. It is also very important to note that
my company, UFC, already has extensive experience in operating a best-in-class combat sports organization. For more than two decades, UFC has worked to become the gold standard for athlete health and safety in combat sports. We're proud of our track record, and we would certainly bring that expertise to
bear in the boxing industry. As boxing is the only professional sport regulated by Congress, we believe congressional action in the form of bipartisan HR 4624 is needed to clarify the ambiguity in current law that has stifled investment and led to the problems we have we have
that have that have diminished the sport for athletes and fans alike. This bill is a thoughtful solution that preserves the original Ali Act while providing boxers with access to more choices and opportunities, greater health and safety protections, and better pay. I want to thank the subcommittee for giving me the
opportunity to testify here today and be happy to take any questions you may have. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. And now I recognize Mrs. Ali for your testimony. >> You can just uh tap the microphone, please. There, ma'am. There we go. Sorry. >> Fantastic. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Chairman McKenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the Workforce Protection Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss HR 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival
Act. My name is Lonnie Ali and I am honored to speak to you as the wife and partner of the greatest boxer of all time, the self-proclaimed, globally recognized and original goat, Muhammad Ali. I met Muhammad in 1963 when I was
six years old and living in Louisville, Kentucky. Back then, the young Cashes Clay played a role in my life as a hometown hero and a grow growing global icon whose influence extended far beyond the ring throughout his career. After
his retirement from boxing, we married and I stood beside him for more than three decades as his closest companion, advocate, and eventually his caregiver. Muhammad went on to become an Olympic champion and three-time heavyweight champion of the world, earning numerous
accolades and including the presidential medal of freedom in 2005 from President George W. Bush. Boxing gave Muhammad a platform to speak truth to power, to fight for civil rights, and to inspire millions around the world. He believed
that boxing gave him the public platform to serve others, to be the voice for the voiceless. Mhoffman often said, "Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth." Needless to say, he lived his
life practicing what he preached. He appreciated and utilized the immense platform boxing gave him to serve others and speak out about issues that moved him. Today, as co-founder of the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville, I
carry forward Muhammad's legacy of promoting respect, hope, and understanding throughout the world. The center serves as both a museum and a cultural institution celebrating his global legacy and as an educational
institution that inspires young people to find their own greatness. This brings me to why I strongly support HR 4624. Congress has long recognized that boxing needs help. 25 years ago, Congress
honored Muhammad by enacting the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act to address corruption and other problems in boxing. These issues were not new to Muhammad, to Congress, or to the country. Indeed, in the 1960s, it was
well known that the mob controlled much of boxing. In the late 1990s and the early 2000, Muhammad and I were honored to work with the late and honorable Senator John McCain of Arizona to strengthen reforms throughout the boxing
the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. 25 years later, boxing has suffered a steady decline in both popularity and integrity. Young athletes who might have once seen boxing as a pathway to success now face a system plagued by structural
limitations, inadequate safety protections, and limited opportunities for fair compensation. One needs only to understand that HBO, Showtime, and ESPN have dropped boxing programming to know
that boxing is in trouble. I was asked about this bill and felt a personal obligation to assess whether it would be good for boxing and for boxers. I certainly cannot speak for Muhammad. As you know, he had a way with words.
The perspective I bring is whether this bill reinforce reinforces Muhammad's life work and it does. In addition to injecting some muchneeded competition into the current system, this bill has significant health, safety, and
integrity provisions that will no doubt be good for the sport. These three elements are partic these three elements are particularly meaningful to me. minimum compensation, mandatory MRI testing, which will
require MRI and MRA test every three years, and performance and recovery centers. Muhammad's perspective on boxing transcended its demanding physical aspects. He was well known for his focus on the mental and emotional
strength, courage, and self-belief gained through the sport. viewing the boxing viewing boxing as a platform for expressing convictions and inspiring others. He believed in the importance of mental fortitude and willpower
professing that the will must be stronger than the skill. If Muhammad were here today, I know he would want to ensure that boxing remains strong and viable for generations to come, providing opportunities for other athletes to pursue their goals and
dreams, just like he did. This legislation has the potential to create countless opportunities for young athletes while establishing the safety standards and ethical practices that should have been in place long ago. It can help restore boxing's position as a
respected American sport while ensuring that fighters who make it great are treated with dignity and the protection they deserve. Given its enhanced protections for boxers, I believe Muhammad would be proud to have his name associated with this leg legislation.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. I look forward to working with you to pass this important legislation and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have at this time. >> Thank you. And next we'll recognize Mr. English for his testimony.
>> Thank you very much. And uh >> microphone as well, please. >> Thank you to >> button. >> The button is it on >> button. Thanks, sir. >> Thank you. the um why am I here today is a
question. I've been involved in all of the boxing reform movements since the original boxing health and safety act. Very involved to the extent of working
with the staff of John McCain in both acts to help draft it draft them. Now, I'm going to be the minority here that there I am glad that Congress is taking a new look because there are
things that should be corrected and modified. But this act is not the way to go. what the real purpose of this act is in addition to the things that Lonni Ali
said when they're all good and I'm all in favor of that. I have them down on my little pad here is to give a monopoly power or attempt to give a monopoly power to a particular
UBO which is ZUFA. Most boxers who through their organizations and individually are opposed to this act. Nobody ha to my knowledge has gathered them together
to speak as they have before the ABC, before the California Athletic Commission in many other places. Um, when it became known that I was
going to testify today, I was delused with uh folks that said, "Make sure they ask this, make sure they ask that." Well, it's not my role, nor do I have the time to do
that. But let me tell you really quickly how the other acts that I've mentioned were generated. There was no one who was a lobbyist who was involved in those acts. There were a group including
John McCain of people who cared and wanted to help a sport that needed help. So they worked collectively together in a long series of hearing.
sadly took years but it got better. The Muhammad Ali act as an pardon me as an example broke to some extent not to the extent I would like
a a grip of ratings organizations in a way that that was very bad. Corrupt is the word that I would choose to use. This bill unfortunately
takes away some of the guidelines that were so important particularly in the Muhammad Ali Act. For instance, I have provided written testimony, but
just c certain things, the firewall provision will not apply to the UBO. That's not helpful to anyone except somebody who wants to control.
The next thing of many is that it does not require that positive drug tests be reported as they are now. Right now, they are reported to the local commission.
they're reported to the um ABC but and of course through the ABC to the um the the organization that uh
holds the um sorry I'm long long day that uh that that reports results box it's called it's called boxre and it has a contract with the VC. This bill says or it goes to those or
the UBO. That's wrong. There has been lots of suspects that results have been held, not reported or manipulated.
That that can't be. It is a formula for a problem. I have I written testimony. I know you've read it. I'm running out of time here. Uh and
but I really would like to answer any questions that you have recognizing that I'm really in the minority of this panel. >> All right. Well, thank you. Uh we appreciate everybody being here. And lastly, we will recognize Mr. Foster for
your testimony. >> Good afternoon, Chairman McKenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the committee. My name is Andy Foster, and I serve as executive officer of the California State Athletic Commission and multiple leadership positions within the Association of
Boxing Commissions. I was also a professional fighter. Thank you for holding this important hearing for consideration of the of the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. Members of Congress, in 44 states right
now, a professional boxer can fight four, six, or sometimes eight rounds, get knocked unconscious, concussed, need stitches, suffered a broken orbital, or worse. And the check they're handed at the end of the night is literally $1.
I've stood ringside and watched it happen. In some cases, fighters actually pay the promoter a fee just to be on the card. So, they leave the venue worse off both financially and physically than when they arrived. Me members of
Congress, that's not a sport. That's sanctioned exploitation. In 2016, California said no more. The commission banned $1 contracts and set a minimum purse of $100 per schedule round. In 2023, Governor Gavin Newsome
signed legislation that the commission sponsored that double purses to a minimum of $200 per round, the highest in the country. A four round fighter in California now walks away with at least $800. It's still modest money, but for
the thousands of club level fighters who keep this sport alive, it's enough money to get you home. HR4624 would finally bring the rest of America to a reasonable floor. $150 per round, meaning $600 for a 4ounder.
That's a that single provision would be the biggest pay raise the workingclass boxer has ever seen. But money is only part of the picture. Boxing injuries can be brutal and expensive. Too many promoters today carry 5,000 or $10,000 insurance
policies. When a fighter needs an overnight hospital stay, an MRI, emergency surgery, those bills go unpaid and often get sent to the fighter himself. This bill fixes that by requiring every professional card in the
country to carry at least $25,000 in no deductible medical coverage paid for by the promoter and not the athlete. That's real protection. That's what boxing needs. That will help boxing.
The legislation also establishes the first federal medical baseline, an annual physical, dilated eye exam, and blood testing for hepatitis B, C, and HIV. California and a handful of other states already greatly exceed these standards, and the bill wisely lets us
continue to do so. But no boxer in any state will again be cleared with just a quick blood pressure check and a handshake. The California State Athletic Commission voted unanimously to support this bill and we particularly urge you to add one amendment that we've
requested, an automatic inflation adjustment so that these person insurance minimums, these protections don't erode over time. We also strongly back the unified boxing organization framework in the bill. It gives fighters genuine choice in how
they want to pursue titles without the crushing sanctioning fees that drain purses today. It gives the fighters a choice. Mr. Chairman, professional boxers put their health and their future on the line every single time they step through
the ropes. HR4624 says that their safety, their basic dignity, and their ability to pay a medical bill are not negotiable. California regulates more combat sports events than any other state in the country by a wide margin. And we are
proud to stand with Congressman Jack and Congresswoman Davids, who is also a fighter, and the other members of Congress to support this bipartisan bill. Please pass this bill, add the inflation adjustment, and give American boxers the protection that they've
earned in blood and sweat. Thank you, and I'm happy to answer your questions. >> Thank you. Under committee rule nine, we will now ask questions of the witnesses. And under the fiveminute rule, uh, I would recognize myself first, but I'm
going to yield to our full committee chairman, Mr. Wahlberg for mission. >> I thank the gentleman for your kindness in doing that, and I appreciate the panel for being here very much so. Um,
and um, I guess I'd add a few more names to the Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit. gota got to remember the fist Joe Lewis and the Joe Lewis Arena Krank Jim which is making a comeback uh and uh certainly I'm so proud that
the longtime home of Muhammad and Lonni Ali was in my district and uh so good to have you here. Um Mr. Epstein being a wrestler, I guess a pugilist to
some degree, myself and having five shoulder surgeries as a result of that. Chicken wings, arm bars, gramby rolls, and all of the rest. I wouldn't not do it over again. But that was
amateur. I guess I'd like to hear more about the medical coverage of the ultimate fighting championship that goes on specifically goes on in a person's life as well as especially the training aspect. What's covered there?
>> Congressman, thanks for that question. Um, you know, most injuries actually take p place with mixed martial arts athletes, combat sports athletes in training because every fight they participate in, um, many many hours are
are used to train for that particular bout. And that's when many injuries occur. And so over a decade ago at the UFC, we instituted uh what we call an accident insurance policy for all of the athletes at the UFC that are currently under contract with us. uh that accident
insurance uh policy provides coverage for any and I underline any acute injury sustained by the athlete in training or in any other situation frankly uh leading up to the event. You heard a little bit about uh what we'd like to do with this bill which would be to
increase the uh the amount of coverage that would uh be for injuries sustained in about and about but the coverage that we provide you know obviously dovetales with that. It it covers all injuries, any acute injury that's sustained during training and frankly any any injury that
the athlete sustains while they're under contract. And that's a very significant thing because in many situations athletes, you know, they don't have uh coverage uh and they will actually go into about injured in order to avail themselves to the at this point fairly limited accident insurance policy
they'll have relating to about injury. So we're very proud of that. We've done it for I said over a decade now and it's something that we think is central to the UBO model and a requirement that all UBOs should should have to implement before they can uh have the status >> that industrywide industrywide standard
is is is greatly appreciated. Thank you. >> Thank you >> Miss Ali you co-founded the Muhammad Ali Center with your late husband. uh core mission of the center as I understand is to continue his legacy for promoting respect and inspiring positive change.
How how do you believe HR 4624 works toward achieving those goals? >> Thank you for that question, Congressman. My husband spent his life trying to inspire and uplift people um especially those who did not have a
voice of their own. In this situation, a lot of the boxers don't have that voice either. I appreciate this this bill in particular because it addresses not only the legacy of Muhammad in his sport of
boxing where it will maintain that that um presence of boxing in American sports culture, but also what it does for the people who participate and make that sport possible for us to watch. It will uplift them with minimum payment for
each round they they box. The health and safety standards that are in that have been incorporated into this act especially the MRI and MRA brain testing which is especially important to me. uh every three years beginning the first
year and then every three years thereafter they are required to take that test as well as the as I said the performance and recovery um institutes that they have. My husband never had any kind of opportunity to have that kind of
support as an athlete. A lot of other league athletes do. Um and and boxers are entitled to that as well. And I believe that my husband would approve of the of the um provisions in this act
that uplift those boxers and provide a pathway just the way it provided a pathway for him to a bigger platform to make an honest living, a decent living, and to be protected while doing so. >> Thank you. Before I yield back because I
have to here, I want to say Mr. Foster, thank you for bringing reality in your testimony to what the sport is about and what fighters go through. Thank you. I yield back. >> Thank you, chairman. I will next recognize our ranking member of the subcommittee for five question five
minutes of questioning. >> Five questions. >> Um uh thank thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. English, thank you so much for uh joining us. Can you briefly um remind us of what the world of boxing looked like
before the Ali Act and what were the conditions and practices that led to the Ali Act? >> Repeating in my view it was thoroughly corrupt. Uh ratings were sold. We know that as a fact because there was a
conviction as a result of it. Um there was a coziness I think I say in my written testimony between promoters and managers. Now a manager should have a fiduciary duty to a fighter. Manager
meaning anyone who gets a percentage of the fighter's purse who is not a promoter. Uh that was not the case. We had and still do have
issues where you have relatives uh who u manage fighters where a promoter uh has an interest. Uh the if you're asking also about the health
and safety act, it was a start. It wasn't the completion. There's a lot more that needed to be done, but the biggest thing that happened was the suspension list
administered through the ABC into a company called Box Wreck. Right now, it's Box Wreck. It was something else then. >> Let me let me ask you this. If the revival act um was passed, would unified boxing organization or UBOS be allowed
to undertake any of the practices that the Ali Act prohibited? >> Yes. Uh one major one is the coziness I and I use that word between managers and uh
uh the UBO. um whether it's the UFC, Zufa or anybody else who may come along. Nobody else exists right now. But I have been I have seen provisions of
contracts uh that require the um signing with a quote advisor unquote for 15% of a boxer's income.
Um you know it was in a promotional contract. So, and that was an entity that was a ZUFFA related entity. Now, that's absolutely prohibited.
Now, I don't know whether that contract was provisioned on the completion of this bill, but it's there. >> Yeah, >> that that is I don't know why, but it it's there. >> Thank Thank you. Um,
Mr. um, Epstein, the the USC uh, settled a longstanding antirust case after allegations of using restrictive contracts keeping fighters pay at roughly 15 to 20% of revenue as Mr.
English was kind of alluding to. um what minimum share of event revenues can you commit today um that boxers could receive under sufa uh boxing league? >> Yeah, first let me just address you know sort of the the lawsuit which is part of
your question. Um we did settle the lawsuit um it was 10 years of litigation. We made a business decision to settle it but I want to be clear there was no finding of any liability or anything along those lines as far as committing to any percentage today. Obviously can't do that. Um, you know, we're starting a new business if this if
this legislation is passed. We're going to be starting a new business and it's going to be >> Okay. Well, then let me let me ask you this. UFC is being sued again, not only with more claims of wage suppression, but also new allegations of discovery violation. Um, even though you just said
there was no discovery, you possibly withholding a substantial amount of evidence that was crucial to the UFC's pit bit for force their antirust claims into arbitration. With all these lawsuits, I'm having hard time seeing
why any of the fighters would ever be able to trust that they will be paid fairly in the system. So, Mr. Epstein, what would you tell the many boxers who are worried about being trapped in a long course of um contract or how will you make sure that the economic freedom
of boxers will not be taken away under this model that you're advocating for? >> What what I would tell them is they're going to have a choice. Um what's very clear from this legislation is that the existing Ali Act is not going to change at all. We're adding new provisions that will add for we've talked about the unified boxing organizations or UBOS's.
There's going to be a choice for athletes to make. I don't see how choice is a bad thing. If our system is not providing the economic opportunities for athletes, they can avail themselves to the existing system. But the problem we've got is the current state of boxing is is just a disaster. As was mentioned
in previous testimony from from witnesses on this panel, um there are no major media companies in the United States of America that currently broadcast in any way, shape, or form a consistent cadence of boxing events. If we if we look back 10 or 15 years ago, you had HBO, you had Showtime, you had
ESPN Friday Night Fights, which I loved. Tuesday night fights on USA. I mean, I'm a huge boxing fan, too. I want this sport to be successful. I want it to win. And I really do believe that the UBOS's will give it a chance, but ultimately, it's going to be a choice for athletes. If they don't like it, they can choose to stick with the existing system.
>> Thank you. I yield back. >> Thank you. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Epstein, I will go to myself for the next round of questions and I'd like to continue uh and pick up where the ranking member left off. Uh when it comes to competition amongst different
organizations and the potential for increased competition through HR 4624, I would like to hear how UFC's safety standards compare to other existing boxing uh industry standards that are in place today. >> Thank you for that question. I mean, you
know, we believe that the UFC standards for health and safety are truly the gold standard in the combat sports industry. As as I mentioned in a previous question, we provide accident insurance policies for all of our athletes. I think we have 750 athletes currently under contract. All 750 plus have what's
called an accident insurance policy that covers them for all acute injuries. Uh it was also mentioned by Miss Ali that we have a UFC performance institute. That performance institute is a physical space that we have in several locations around the world that provides
world-class training, nutrition, injury, recovery, and sport science to all of our athletes free of charge. Um, those are just two things that we're doing to set the industry standard uh when it comes to combat sports. And the final thing which I will mention because Mr. English did mention is is drug testing.
And I was a bit confused by his comments and I I agree with him that there should be absolute transparency when it comes to uh adverse drug uh testing performance-enhancing drug uh testing results. Um over 10 years ago, we instituted what I believe to be is the
gold standard not in the world of combat sports, but in the world of professional sports, a 365day random out of competition uh testing protocol for all of our athletes. All administered by a third party. We don't decide who gets tested, when they get tested, for what they get tested, and all of the
adjudication of any adverse results is handled by a third party. So, this is the industryleading stuff that we're doing for the health and safety in the UFC. And we absolutely intend to do this in in a unified boxing organization structure. >> Thank you. And I I would note, I mean,
uh when it comes to boxing and a regulated sport like this, uh we're talking about compensation for fighters. We're talking about uh the opportunity for more uh comp competition, more uh highlighting of the sport on on national
TV. Uh but safety standards and health provisions are critically important to those boxers. And I do believe that that is one area where competition in the marketplace uh could actually increase those standards uh for everybody across the industry as well. uh because boxers
are going to be picking and choosing uh where they want to compete and they're going to be looking at that whole array of issues not just uh compensation and exposure uh but also the health and safety of of the uh competing organizations. So I think that is critically important that we highlight that here. Uh Mr. Foster, I'll go to you
next. uh do want to talk about uh with your long tenure in the industry and especially now as a regulator, how have you seen the boxing industry change since the passage of the Muhammad Ali boxing reform in 2000? And how do you
believe that uh the changes that we are trying to correct can be remedied with the legislation that's being discussed today? >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, some of the changes that I've saw um
h have been somewhat negative over the over the years. I mean, we lost HBO, we lost Showtime, we lost Fox, we lost ESPN. We don't we're not on t the box is not on TV anymore. Uh, the zone uh they're based in the UK. They're they're
they're broadcasting, but uh that's that's that's been one area. Another area that's been helpful is, you know, the the like like Pat said, we have the uh suspension list and now that Boxre's doing it, we've got really good with communicating with the
other states. We don't have fighters fighting on suspension. That's been that's been helpful with with the reform act. Um, but one of the things, Mr. Chairman, when we talk about what happened in 96 and what happened in 2000, now we're in
2025, is not how much how much has changed. How much is still the same? The boxers are still being exploited. Look, it was a $100 around 25 years ago. I'm talking about the like the the minimum standard. Okay?
I mean, dollar contracts are relatively, from my experience, a relatively newer type idea. Giving the fighters the tickets to sell and that's how you're paid and making them do this kind of thing. And then then this idea of having to use whether you're going to have to
use your money that you just made to pay the deductible to get your stitches done. These these are not okay. And this bill addresses those particular issues. And just and final because I'm running out of time here. Um I think that adding
competition will help the industry because the sanctioned organizations, it's interesting to me that their fees are all the same. Okay. Are roughly all the same. The IBF will give you a break at 2% if you're the champion, I think. But it but the fees are essentially all the
same. Isn't that interesting? I think it's interesting. >> Thank you again. And for our next questions, we'll go to Mr. Rothman from Wisconsin. >> Yeah. Thanks. First of all, just uh you know, you're right. You don't see boxing on TV much anymore, but wasn't there a
time in this country where if you were in the service, you either had to pick and be a boxer or a wrestler? Anyone want to comment on that? >> Yeah, I can just jump in here quickly and just say, you know, virtually every branch of uh the US military now trains in some form of combat sports, mixed martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc.
So, uh I think what you're saying is absolutely accurate. >> Yeah, I think during the 50s if you were in the military. Okay. Um your written testimony, well, this is for you, Mr. Epstein. Your written testimony also says the current mega event model um in boxing financially benefits a few boxers
at the top. How would the creation of a UBO organization promote growth for the sport and success spread out among the boxers a little bit more? >> Yeah, I think I think the model really is what we've done at the UFC. You know, we purchased the UFC in 2001. We were doing a handful of events, four or five
events per year. Uh in 2026, we'll do 43 events. Typically, that's 12 to 14 bouts per event. So, that's, you know, essentially 24 to 28 athletes competing. Um, this is the type of stuff that we're going to do in the world of boxing. We're increase capacity. We're going to
not just create opportunities for one or two boxers every few years to do a mega fight, but uh create a consistent cadence of events, which of course means a consistent cadence of work for a huge number of boxers. As I mentioned at UFC, we're 750 athletes currently, uh, plus
or minus a few. Um, this is the type of aspirations that certainly we have for the boxing industry. And that means, as I said, not just more athletes making more money on a per round basis, but actually more athletes making money in general. >> Okay. How would the unified boxing organizations coordinate with state
athletic commissions? >> State athletic commissions are a key part and they're really the lynch pin for all of the regulatory health and safety athlete payment issues that relate to boxing in this country. So we every single event that we would do in the United States of America would only
be done if it was sanctioned by a state athletic commission. So we do a lot of work with Andy uh in California. That would be the case if if we did events in California. Um and I just want to repeat that we would not be doing any events in this country without them being fully sanctioned uh by athletic commissions.
>> Uh I remember the golden days of boxing and everything was always on Friday nights in ESPN. I'd like to watch. It was just tremendous. That being said, also love to watch football and there have been lawsuits and such over football players,
even though they're okay when they're playing, the real injuries kick in when they're 55 or 60 years old. And in in boxing, you have a sport in which the goal is even to knock people out, which you don't have in football. That's a rare thing that you see.
How would you sp respond to criticism? uh and are there any statistics available on the number of say boxers who have Alzheimer's or whatever they get uh say 20 years after they retire compared to football players and the
injuries that they get. You raise a very important issue, one that at the UFC we've been involved in for almost 15 years now in investigating these issues. And I think the the primary goal that we have is to allow our athletes to make informed decisions about their health
and safety. Provide them with information so they can make informed decisions. What we've been doing for the last 15 years approximately is is funding that being the primary funer along with some of the boxing promoters. By the way, they have contributed in a groundbreaking study with the Cleveland Clinic. Uh Cleveland Clinic has an
outpost in Las Vegas. The goal of of this study is twofold. Number one, are certain people just predisposed towards brain injury because of of their physiology? And number two, are there early indications that we can see before before someone starts manifesting a cognitive deficit? We can see they're
heading down the wrong path and, you know, get them out of the sport. It's not great to diagnose somebody with CT after they've got it, but figuring out ways to stop people from getting it is the key. >> Yeah. uh this this study that we've been involved in, as I said, with UFC athletes, with boxers, with other um
workers that have potential for brain injury. Um lots of data has come out of that and we could share that data with this committee if you're interested in that. But uh I think around 40 or 50 peer-review journals have looked at that data and we're getting closer every day to a way where we can hopefully make as
a condition of lensure for MMA athletes, for boxers, uh some sort of a test that will indicate if you're predisposed to a brain injury or you're heading down the wrong path, you're out of the sport, you can't get a license. >> I'll just leave you with I knew a guy who was a very good football player on the collegiate level, but very very
good. And uh after he after after he graduated from college, he started his own business. Very successful, super guy. Uh but he wound up getting Alzheimer's when he was like in his early 50s. And nobody's ever going to convince me that that was a coincidence
that this guy used to brag to me that he'd hit guys with the crown of his helmet, which you're not supposed to do. It was a good football player a damn shaming night I think at age before age 60. And I want you guys as you work through this to think about
that because just because a guy uh doesn't have a serious injury the day of the fight or the week after the fight doesn't mean that over a course of 20 fights he's going to have something that pops up when he's 55 years old, which is
what's happened to the NFL now. So, thanks. >> Thank you. >> Excuse me. May I add something to the testimony that Mr. Epstein just gave? >> Please, Mr. Go ahead. >> Thank you so much and thank you uh Congressman for your questions because I
think they're important and and as I said in my testimony, brain health is especially important to me because my husband suffered with Parkinson's disease not from boxing, but I have seen what boxing can do to people. Um, as you
said, hitting people with your head can can later in life bring on Alzheimer's. That's why I am so proud and happy that this particular act brings in brain health as an issue as a component where
this MRI MAS will be performed every three years so that the detection of brain health the boxer will know where he where he is headed how his brain health is because you can see the imaging you can see the damage that that might be done and where it might lead
too, especially when you are being seen by a neurologist who that is their expertise. As uh Mr. Epstein mentioned out in the Cleveland Clinic out in Las Vegas does that specifically for boxers. So uh no other uh uh provision in this
in in uh that other the parallel I should say the parallel boxing industry provides for this. No one asked my husband to take a required MRI to be sanctioned to be licensed. This was something we did later of course in his
life and found out about the Parkinson's disease but it wasn't asked for any other boxer. So this is a provision I think that is a strength that shows that the UBOS's would be very very um
interested and and protective of the athlete and u one of the provisions as I said that I am so proud to have in there. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for adding that. And next we will go for uh qu turn to questions for
uh Mr. Mesmer from Indiana. Uh thank you chairman and thank you to for witnesses for being here today. Uh Mr. Foster, in your written testimony, you discuss how the current four belt system has created a self-serving uh incentive to emphasize the ranking of a
few boxers at the top at the expense of competitive entertaining matches that could grow the sport. Uh can you discuss how this bill would foster healthy competition in boxing? >> Yes, thank you, Congressman. Um so to
answer your question sir you you have to understand the way that boxing boxing works um the current system the four belt system. So what you have is you have a promoter who signs a fighter and that's the promoter's fighter and then
this is this is early in their career and so what happens is you look for a that promoter will promote a fight and look for somebody that that guy that person can beat. Okay. Has to be good enough to pass my approval or whichever
state's approval, but has to be reasonable but beatable. Okay. And those people in boxing are called opponents. That's that's the term that we use. And then when you get a really good opponent, they're called the gatekeeper. Okay? And we have we have some of them
in the various weight classes. And then they move up. And so this goes on and on and on until you get an undefeated fighter. Okay? that this is what's happening. And then over here on the other side of the country or nearby, you have another promoter doing essentially
the same thing. Okay? And they're doing this. Now, all these people that have been beat all all the time, they're attracting just loss after loss after loss. And they've got really no kind of recourse. They've got no promoter. They're not being promoted. But the but the undefeated fighter is. Now at the
end of this rainbow all this way up the sanctioning bodies have issued like the regional belt the the this and that belt whatever belt they have a lot of belts. Let me give you sir in 1996 when the professional boxing act was was passed
619 titles were issued across the world by the sanctioned organizations. Last year that number was 2,156. Okay so you saw an increase in the number of titles. It's good for like the fighters like to have them and the whole
thing, but they're charging every time that the thing they charge for the belt. That system that I just explained to you is exploitive in a way. Now, under a UBO system, if a fi if a promoter has both
sides of the card, their financial interest shifts, their business model shifts from wanting to make sure that the that their fighter wins to making a competitive match that the public will want to see because it's
driven by it's a different model. So, you want to have like a a fight that people will want to tune in and and see. Um, the first model is like, well, you've got a fight that's like kind of okay, people might tune in, but you're
searching for the mega fight at the end where you have like a big champion that's won all this stuff versus the other promoter's big champion and you promote a big thing. They're just different business models. But when the focus shift from trying to protect your
fighter and getting f the opponent beat to making competitive matches in my view that's um that that's that would be good for boxing. And one final caveat to that that goes along with it. Let's say you've got one of these fighters that
are promoted and they they take a loss. Okay, their earnings potential just plummets the next goround like the the next fight. it just goes so far down. Whereas under a system where they've got both sides of the card,
if the guy loses, so what? They've got a contract. They know what they're going to get the next time. Um, this is the in this is this is what's happening in boxing and I think that adding a UBO model, not taking away the current system because remember there's a
difference here, sir. The United This is for the US boxers. This is for American boxers. Okay, these sanctioned organizations deal throughout the world. So, we're dealing with world titles and this is for American and I think that the name of the bill, the Revival
Act, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, I believe it will revive American boxing by providing competition for for our fighters. Hope that answers your question, sir. >> Yeah. Well done. So, thank you and I'll yield back the rest of my time. >> Thank you, sir. Next, we go to Mr. Comr from Kentucky.
>> Thank you, Miss Miss Ali. It's a honor to have you here today, a fellow Kuckian and uh someone that that obviously uh has left a huge positive impact in our state. I fly out of the Louisville Muhammad Ali airport every every week to
come to Washington. Uh and I'm a big fan of the Muhammad Ali Center there in Louisville and all the great work that that you all do. And uh on behalf of everyone in Kentucky, we we thank you for for the great work that that you do in in Kentucky. Uh it's inspiring to see
the foundation continue uh uh to uh do so many good things, especially the the pursuit to improve the the boxing industry and raise awareness of neurological diseases. Uh I know that uh your husband would be very proud of uh
of this legislation and and everything that's uh honors his his name that bears his name that does good for the the industry. In addition to enacting Representative Jack's legislation, the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act, what more can be done to address general
safety and ha and health concerns in boxing? Well, I'm not the expert, sir, but um I think this is we're off to a good start with this with this bill. Um as you know, as I said, the brain health is what's most important to me and I
think we're doing that. If I was to to suggest that maybe it would be more often, maybe every year instead of every three years. Uh with regards to the physicals, I know that is important, the health and safety of the physicals and that I know that is also something that ends up with the uh state athletic
commissions to make sure that the boxer is healthy. But also as uh Mr. English mentioned about and Mr. Epste mentioned about drug testing and making sure that that is done randomly, it's transparent and results are shared. But
>> and also what what is important is that that when you think about the health of a boxer, it's not just the physical health. It's also about the economic health of a boxer and how that plays into this. Uh the minimum standard that we are uh that the bill is offering is
150 $150 per round, which is more than what is in uh 40 plus states already. This gives an opportunity for boxers to to earn uh a decent wage while while boxing um which is important and also
gives them an opportunity in this system to ascend rightfully competitively in their ranks to earn even more money. Um, when I think about this bill and how it how it promotes Muhammad's legacy, it's
about lifting people up, preserving boxing for America. Uh, making sure, like I said, that opportunity exists for other other athletes, other people who want to pursue boxing because this is, as you said, it's a it's a sport that's been in America for a very long time,
over a hundred years. It's the common man sport and everybody deserves an opportunity and access uh to be able to walk into a boxing gym and pick up a pair of gloves and aspire to be something greater. >> Right. Well, what what would you hope to
see change in the sport to foster new interest in in boxing? >> Um I I think that right now we are looking at a barren landscape. Mhm.
>> Boxing is not there and we need to change that. And how do we do that? The existing model even though it's there there it is still fraught with problems and um challenges for boxers. M >> this is a parallel organization
opportunity for boxers to participate in that will enhance I think the the uh opportunity for boxing to be on a regular cadence as Mr. Epstein said on television promoted to bring back boxing. This is the start.
>> This UBO is one organization that does not prevent other UBOs from coming into existence which is important. So when you see that competitive spirit and the ability to to uh create that spectator sport, which is what all sports,
professional sports really are, >> um I think it's uh something that will increase awareness of of um the sport and the and really regain that that fan base. >> Very good. Well, I appreciate that. I'm
uh glad to support this legislation. Uh hopefully we can revive the sport in Kentucky. Uh where uh you Muhammad Ali is uh without a doubt the the the most famous athlete to ever come out of
Kentucky. So we're proud of him and and his legacy and the great work that that you all do and uh happy to support this legislation. I yield back. >> Thank you. Next we'll go to Mr. Fine from Florida. >> Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got a few questions for Mr. English. Um, I
spent more than 10 years of my life in the casino business and boxing was an important part of driving that business since I entered it back in the early 2000s. I want to talk about how boxing has grown or declined over time. Um, would you say there are more cards
today, more or fewer cards today than there were 10 years ago? >> Well, it's a misnomer that there are substantially fewer. I I got the research and I provided it to the staff. Uh I it would take more time than it's
worth, but uh it's not hugely lower. >> Well, actually it is. In the 1990s, there were 250 to 300. I used to do this for a living. And actually in the 2020s, there's about 100 to 130. So we've seen about a 50% decline in US cards over time. So, but is your it is your
contention. So, I understand that the that the boxing industry, if you will, the opportunities available for boxers today is the same as it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s. It's just as good. The industry is the same. It's not the opportunities are the same. Better or
worse today than they were 20, 30 years ago. >> Uh very different. I can't judge whether the fact look if Mr. Ali was a world champion today.
And I always say this when when what how goes the heavyweight division goes boxing. It's true. We don't have right now the prominent and I'm speaking generally of course we don't have the
prominent American boxers that we once did. >> Sure. And perhaps it's because the number of opportunities available to become that are smaller. So my next question for you is this. Do you think if we created a second vehicle, UFC has been extraordinarily successful, create an industry out of nothing, do you think
that if it was created that what we're talking about here, would there be more or less opportunities for boxers to engage in the sport and the profession that they want to participate in? Few more or fewer? >> Just to be very clear, I'm not arguing
that there should not be a UBO. what do you want to call it? What I'm arguing is that the guard rails that are in the Muhammad Ali Act should apply universally. >> So, let's talk let's talk about let's
talk about guardrails. Earlier this week, um Terrence Bud Crawford was stripped of his championship belt by a sanctioning organization uh because he didn't pay an exorbitant fee to the sanctioning organization. Are you are you aware of that? And do you so there are pretty big problems with what goes
on today. >> Many times I have suggested to fighters that they do not need a particular belt or any belt. I could give you the names of the fighters. It's not important. Sometimes fighters transcend those
belts. >> But you also said there not a lot transcending right now. We don't have a lot of We don't have a lot of transcenders right now. There aren't there >> uh we don't have as many as we did. I can think of a handful. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, you were involved actually in in in
an Ali Act case involving Jeff Lacy versus your clients. Um you worked with this group called Main Events, you know, was sort of involved in this space. When was the last time Main Events um promoted a televised card? Because, you know, I mean, I'm focused on opportunities for boxers. Was it a year
ago, five years, 10 years? I can I am not here as a representative of main events. I want to make it very clear. >> No, I understand. I'm asking facts a fact question. >> They're uh that they've got a card that they're co-promoting uh in January.
>> But when's the last time before that? >> Uh it was in Florida last year. >> Okay. So >> maybe early this year. >> Couple opportunities. Look, the fact of the matter is this. In in the 1980s, the 1990s, boxing was considered one of the big three sports. There were massive
opportunities available for people who want to participate. And it was not only good for them, but it was good for the facilities, the entertainment venues, for the business that I came from. Everybody won um by these increased opportunities. That industry is now in decline. And I think that we can oppose
a bill like this because we want to keep the equivalent of the horse and buggy system of boxing going and and watch it continue to decline. and watch it continue to create fewer and fewer opportunities for boxers. Or we can live in the world the way it is today. And what we've seen is UFC has taken over
several decades something that basically didn't exist and turned it into something extraordinary. I think we would all benefit. I think boxers would benefit if they had access to that same kind of opportunity, too. So, I I'm very grateful to Representative Jack for bringing this bill forward, and I'm
going to be excited to vote for it if and when it comes before us for markup. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. Next, we'll go to the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Scott from Virginia. >> Thank Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chairman. Um,
Mr. Foster, who who does oversight right now on the federal law? >> Association, the Association of Boxing Commissions has some degree some degree of oversight, but it's it's relatively
limited. And uh um with the uh with the Muhammad Ali Box and Reform Act, it allows our state attorney generals to take an action if we need to do that or it takes uh um we can send it to the federal department of justice. >> Who would do oversight if this bill
passed? Who would be who would do oversight for compliance with the provisions of this law? >> I would assume substantial compliance would be the state athletic commissions. >> Okay. Um,
>> what is the difference between UBO and the present sanctioning organizations? >> Well, the the the current sanctioning organizations, they rate fighters. Um, there's there's four of them. There's
the World Boxing Council, the IBF. The World Boxing Council is based in Mexico City. The IBF's based in New Jersey, the WBO, that's the World Boxing Organization. They're based in Puerto Rico. And uh the WBA, um I think they're Metaheen Colombia. I
think I think that's right. >> Depends what day it is. >> Yeah, it depend. Yeah, I think they're Metaheen Colombia. Um and they rank the the the fighters. Um but the promoters sir have to uh have to like they they
work with the sanction organizations to like >> what does the UBO do that they don't do them? >> Well the UBO would would would essentially be the promoter and that's kind of the big difference is
the UBO would be ranking their own fighters. They'd have both sides of the card. Um and there's a lot of benefit to that sir because um you don't have to wait to ask who can
fight who. Okay? Like there's all these mandatories that happen once once a year about annually. So what happens is you have like four different list. You have four groups and there's four different lists. Now some of these people are the
same on the list. a whole lot of them aren't. So, like if somebody gets a mandatory, you have to um the the the the champion is supposed to uh gets a letter and says, "Hey, congratulations. You're the champion.
You've got like six weeks or eight weeks to negotiate a deal with the number one contender or our mandatory champion." Um, [snorts] and it sounds great when you say it like but it's not what happens in reality. A lot
of times what happens is if there's a better fi for financial reasons, they'll try to do what's called a special exception or >> how would a UBO fix that? a UBO would would would have their fighters fight
the fight that they believe uh is is is reasonable for the rankings. They would have like a probably I got to think that they're going to do it the other way that the other group does it and have the media does do the rankings. So, like it's like I'm older, but the newspaper
or the the internet media people would would would would do the do the rankings and um you would you would have you you wouldn't have like you wouldn't have to be forced into a mandatory. You could have the champion fight the number six if that made common made made sense. But
most of the time it is the number one contender versus the champion. Now, does does the bill anticipate a specific organization to be a UBO and can others qualify? Absolutely. I think that there's going to be
>> Absolutely. What I I think that absolutely there will be multiple UBOs in a short amount of time if this bill were to pass. I would I would think of three or four would pop up within three or four years of this bill passing because it it will take a little bit of
time to get going. but uh at least three or four. >> Now, there's several provisions in here, minimum amount per round, insurance requirements and things like that. Is it better to do that by statute or by
regulation where the it'd be easier to update the amount per round or the insurance coverage or the kinds of health requirements? Would it be better to do that in statute or by regulation? Congressman Scott, that is an excellent question, sir. That is an excellent
question he just asked. We've been trying. Look, we did it by regulation the first time and by statute the second time, but we're one state. We we had uh we had, I think, 90 or almost 100 boxing events last year, but that's
one. to get the entire country on the same page of a minimum, we have to have the United States Congress do this because 50 state legislators or, you know, thereabouts are not going to take this up or 50 state commissions aren't going to run regulations. It's going to
take Congress. >> Thank you, Mr. Unless, Mr. Chairman, you had a national commission. Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. >> Can I just have half a second to address that issue?
John McCain was moving toward preparing a bill that would create a national commission which would do exactly what Mr. Scott, Congressman Scott was talking about.
Obviously he got partially diverted by presidential politics uh and then unfortunately an illness but that is something that this Congress could do and in my opinion should
explore. >> Thank you. >> Uh finally we will go to Mr. Allen from Georgia. >> Uh thank you Mr. Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank you for allowing me to wave on the committee. Um, and I and I
did that because growing up in the late 60s and 70s, uh, boxing, football, and sports and athletics was was everything to to young men. And in fact in high school when you wanted to settle a difference uh that
resulted in a fight ra and our coaches came up with this rather than expel the young men uh they went to the gym put on the gloves and settled it usually ending in both exhausted hugging each other walking all out of the gym. Uh it's
amazing. In fact we did that in we settled it in college that my fraternity brother was Golden Gloves. Nobody messed with him in the state of Florida. Uh my hometown Augusta is mo mostly known for golf, but uh but we have the Augusta
Boxing Club and I wanted to lift this up and lift this club up. It's better to sweat in the gym than bleed in the streets. The Augusta Boxing Club with assistance from area law enforcement agencies is structured as an after-school community support organization with a goal to curtail drug
abuse and crime among young adults and children. There is a great story in in boxing and I wanted to lift that up and and I can tell you uh Miss Ali u
what is it? Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I mean I'll never forget that and I never missed one of those uh one of those boxing matches. It was amazing. So, but your testimony talks about uh you know, and we and
we've all talked about the steady decline in popularity and integrity. Um, and you've talked about what HR 4624 does address as far as the in industry, but uh how's it going to elevate the
sports prominence to where it was once was? Do you do you have uh do you believe it it it's got the potential to do that? I don't know all the answers to that, sir, but I I do believe it has the potential. And what you just mentioned
about the the fighter, the boxing club that's in Augusta and you lifting that up, that is one thing that uh this unified boxing organization and this bill are talk about. Um that they intend to invest in those police athletic leagues that are in
different communities. As I said, this is a sport for the common man where a child can walk in with a pair of sneakers and that's all they need. And get a pair of boxing gloves that takes them off the street. It gives them community. It gives them goals. It gives them hope. It gives them inspiration. Um
it gives them guidance and coaching and that's important. And the investment into those police athletic leagues that used to exist when my husband came along that he became a part of. Joe Martin, the officer who who uh coached my husband for a very long time, was the
head of that police athletic league that gave my husband that platform, that start to become who he was >> uh a global icon. So that, you know, the sky's is the limit and and this is really important of pushing that pipeline of children into that. Uh
>> it's big in Augusta. We have the Augusta Exchange Club uh agricultural fair, but the biggest draw is this boxing club uh performs and that we give prize money >> for them uh uh uh displaying their
skills in the ring in front of uh fairgoers and it's become a tremendous success. Uh Mr. Foster, you referred to the unified boxing organization model as a league style model. Uh, can you tell us how a league style model would result
in more competitive matches which would in turn result in greater interest from the public in these fights? >> Yes, Mr. Allen. Thank you um for the question. Um, it's it's like I've I mentioned in in in one a previous
question is when you have the when you have both sides of the card, you have a financial incentive to make a good fight. Okay. It's not trying to protect the the aside boxer to have a pretty good fight, but a fight that you know
that you can win all the way up until you get to the undefeated end of the rainbow, so to speak. You have a financial incentive to make a good fight every month or every two months or however the the frequency of the the
fights are going to happen. Um, so I believe that that would answer your question. And I think it's [clears throat] pretty obvious why that would why that would make a better fight. You would be financially incentivized to do so. >> Well, I want to thank all of you for
taking your time to be here today. Um, and I want to help you. I I I want I want to get back to the kind of boxing that we enjoyed that I enjoyed growing up and and early in life. And if there's anything I can do to help you, I want to do that. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I
yield back. Thank you. And that concludes uh questioning from our members. So, we're going to go to closing remarks. I'd like to recognize the ranking member for her closing statement. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and once again,
thank you to our witnesses for speaking with us today. Boxing is a sport that requires fighters to push their bodies and minds to the limit to achieve greatness and provide entertainment for millions of viewers. These incredible
feats of athleticism deserve our deserve our utmost respect and our commitment to ensuring these fighters get paid fairly, retain their leverage in the industry, and have their health and safety prioritized. While this bill is not entirely bad, the
Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act does not yet live up to that promise. Um, we've already gotten recommendation for an amendment, Mr. from Mr. foster. Uh so I I do recommend that before this bill moves any further um that my
colleagues take a moment and check in with the people who will actually feel the impact of these reforms. Talk to your state athletic commission, your local boxing gym, the small and small venues and mostly talk to boxers in your
community. We should hear all perspectives and make sure that we are making fully informed policy decision that truly helps workers and small businesses around sports. I welcome future bipartisan discussions on how to
best serve boxers and improve the boxing industry. Um, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter into the record >> without objection. >> Um, an op-ed by Oscar De La Hoya and
Evander Holyfield opposing HR 4624, a tweet by Nico Ali Walsh opposing that the bill, an interview with a promoter Bob Uram expressing opposition to the bill, and a letter from Mr. Aram, an
open letter to the Campat Sports Community and Congress opposing the revival act. A letter from M MMA Fighters Association opposing the bill. A letter from Carlos D. Ronin uh Newton,
a member of the MMA Fighters Association. Uh, a [snorts] letter from Sarah McMahon, a 2004 Olympic silver medalist in wrestling, former UFC contender and now owner of a martial arts gym, also
opposing the revival act. I would also [snorts] like to enter uh data from Box Wreck about the number of fights and boxing events in recent years. >> Without objection. Thank you. And I would just like to
thank all of our uh testifiers again for joining us here today. I think we all uh got to share in some of the remembrances of not only the great Muhammad Ali uh but other great fighters that we enjoyed uh watching growing up uh and during
that heyday and that golden age of boxing. And uh again, Larry Holmes resides uh in our community, the East Assassin. He's been there for a long time and uh as a child I remember growing up and in school uh the talk and
the buzz uh was all about the Tyson Holyfield fights and uh you know what was coming up on on pay-per-view. Uh everybody uh enjoyed those and really looked forward to them and it's something that we want to try to get back to. And so that's what this
legislation is is hoping to achieve uh by reviving American boxing. And we know that it is such a great sport uh but in some ways uh it is being constrained by the current regulatory structure that is in place uh by the outdated practices
not only for paying fighters but uh also keeping them safe and we want to make sure that we we revive American boxing bring it back to its greatness and its glory and I think we can do that by working in a bipartisan fashion. So, your testimony here today is critically
important as we start the process for HR4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. Uh, this hearing is is just the beginning of a legislative uh process uh that goes on here in Congress. uh look
forward to welcoming amendments to be considered by the full committee uh as we will hopefully take this legislation up soon and again hopefully we can get back to a golden age of American boxing and as I say make American boxing great again. Thank you all for being here and
with that this meeting is adjourned.