That's a long The Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions will please come to order. This year, President Trump and Republicans delivered historic reforms to fix higher ed, ending inflationary loan programs, increasing Americans access to
educational opportunities. Now, we must address the lack of transparency, exacerbating a broken system. College is one of the largest financial investments many Americans make, but students have little information to inform decisions.
You don't buy a car without comparing prices, quality, and financing opt options. The same is true for buying a home. Why can we not do this for higher ed? If a student wants to study engineering at college A, they should know their likelihood of graduating and the average
income of graduates compared to college B. Families deserve to know what they're paying for and whether that investment pays off. Policymakers on both sides, Democrat, Republican, agree on the problems, and I'm pleased to say there are bipartisan solutions to address.
President Trump's proposed compact for higher ed calls for more transparency, including for universities to publicly post average earnings from graduates in each program. I agree with the president that we need transparency in higher ed now more than ever. If the committee is
serious about transparency, we must work to empower students with information to examine the entire process from initial college shopping to acceptance to enrollment. Senator Elizabeth Warren and I led the college trans lead the college transparency act CTA which allows
students to compare differences between prospective colleges and majors to see if the value of the degree is worth the price of admission. Specifically, the CTA makes available information on cost, enrollment, retention, completion, postcol earnings of a particular
university and program of study with strict data security standards to protect Americans privacy. Additionally, when families shop for college, they can easily find the price of tuition. It's much harder to find the net price they
will actually pay after accounting for grants from institutions, states, and the federal government. Congress directed colleges and universities to develop net price calculators in '08. A good idea in concept, but more than a decade later, these calculations do not
work as intended. I hope to hear how we can improve these. Once a student is accepted by a school, they receive a financial aid officer offer. GAO reports that these offers can be confusing for parents and students. Senators
Tuberville, Hassan, Grassly, and Smith have bipartisan and biccameal proposals to fix this. Students will be able to compare one aid offer to another aid offer and make the best decision. The reforms discussed today will not only give parents and students confidence in
their college decision, but also make higher ed more attainable, creating more opportunities to achieve the American dream. And with that, I recognize Senator Kaine. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. Um, before any young person signs their name on a student
loan, they should know exactly what they're getting into. And every student and every family should understand the full cost of college before they take out even a single dollar in debt. And Mr. Chair, I agree with students that with you that students and families need clear information. I'm a co-sponsor of
the College Transparency Act that you mentioned, but just making uh the information more transparent doesn't really get at the real problem. The reality is that college just costs too much. Students today are struggling to meet their basic needs. Everyday expenses like housing, child care, food,
health care continue to rise while the power of programs such as Pell Grant have gone down. Students shouldn't have to worry about where their next meal's coming from. But three and five college students struggle to meet basic needs such as food and housing. The higher ed system just isn't working for everybody
anymore. For working families, the dream of college is slipping farther and farther out of reach. The average cost of attendance for a full-time student living on campus is nearly 27,000 a year at a public university and $59,000 a year at a private university. Meanwhile,
the maximum PEL grant used to cover more than 75% of public college cost. Yet today, the maximum PEL grant only covers a quarter of necessary college costs, the lowest level in history. It doesn't have to be that way. We can invest in students basic needs through programs
like PEL, through programs like SNAP. But unfortunately, we're going the wrong direction. Since taking office, the Trump administration has slashed more than $6 billion in federal funding from over 600 universities across all 50 states, including in Virginia. The
funding is used to support life saves life-saving research, provide student aid, and supply other essential services. The president has decimated the Department of Education. The reconciliation bill that was passed last summer didn't make changes to help
students afford college costs. Instead, it cut more than $300 billion from higher ed to pay for tax breaks for the wealthy. This bill will increase student loan payments for a typical college graduate on average by about $4,000 a year. It rolled back protections for
students defrauded by predatory school schools, making it even harder for folks to apply for financial aid. What's more, rather than making college more affordable, the bill places artificial limits on what students and parents can borrow in federal student loans to pay
for graduate programs such as nursing, medical school, and mental health programs. We're going to hear today about the importance of value and return on investment in higher education, and we should. But the reconciliation bill established new standards to limit federal loans to college programs based
on the amount of money graduates earn along with other metrics. Now, accountability can be a good thing, but I am deeply concerned by what the reconciliation bill will mean for lowpaying but extremely important professions like early childhood education. Childare workers are among
the lowest paid professionals in the country. Their work is absolutely essential. The reconciliation bill will take away access to federal student loans for students pursuing degrees in early childhood education solely because their earnings are low. Policies like
this threaten to exacerbate an already extreme workforce shortage in this important sector. Students shouldn't lose access to federal aid that they need to become early childhood educators. And if that weren't enough, we've seen the administration attack academic freedom and freedom of speech
itself, even going after two college presidents in Virginia's public university, successfully forcing the retirement of UVA President Jim Ryan and unsuccessfully attempting to force the retirement of George Mason President Greg Washington. The federal government
should be trying to open doors for opportunity. um transparency of the kinds of initiatives we'll talk about today I think does generate some bipartisan support but we've got a lot to do uh even if we make more transparent the need to have college
that's affordable and in the reach of most American families I look forward to the hearing thank you Mr. Chair >> thank you Senator Kaine I will introduce or the witnesses will be introduced as they testify so let's start with Mr. Drager. Justin Drager is a senior vice president for a for affordability of the
strata education foundation. He previously served as president and CEO of the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators. He's a nationally recognized voice on student aid administration and reform. Mr.
Drager is a graduate of BYU and received his mers of business administration from Baker College. Sir, we look forward to hearing from you today. Please proceed. >> Uh good morning, Chairman Cassidy and Senator Kaine and distinguished members of the committee. It's an honor to be
before you uh today. I'm Justin Dreger, senior vice president of affordability at Strat Education Foundation, uh where our mission is very simple, to connect education with opportunity. I want to start today with two simple truths. First, nearly everyone we talk to believes college is unaffordable.
And second, college pricing has become so complex that even those of us who've spent our careers in this space sometimes struggle to explain how it actually works to students and families. So if it's confusing for us, imagine what it feels like for the students and families trying to plan their futures
around it. And when it comes to college price transparency, I think it's helpful to think about this problem from three perspectives. First are the institutions who are thinking about how to keep the lights on, how to stay solvent, how to enroll their next class, how to tell students how they can pay for their
educations, and then how to support them through their educational journeys. Second, our policy makers who are focused on affordability and accountability, whether institutions are delivering on value for the price that students are paying. And then third, students and families who are focused on
something much more personal. Whether the price they see is the price they will actually pay and whether the degree is worth it when they graduate, especially if they took on loan debt in the process. Last year, our organization, Strata, surveyed voters
and conducted focus groups that showed many of the tensions between these three perspectives. Here's a quick snapshot that shows how confusing college pricing has become. First, three out of four Americans believe college is unaffordable. No surprise there. Second,
most can't accurately say what it actually costs, though, and more than half overestimate the price for both two two-year public and four-year instate public colleges. And third, one in five, so over 20% vastly overestimate the price of both a two-year public and
four-year public college. So, in summary, students and families believe college costs too much. They don't have an accurate idea of how much it actually costs. And when they guess, they generally guess too high. And that misunderstanding works against them from even applying or making choices that
would serve their best needs. So, what do students and families want? Well, according to the focus groups that we conducted this last year, they want five things. One, clarity. They want to know what college costs upfront as early as possible, especially before they commit
to a school. Two, they want simplicity and consistency with the ability to compare costs across schools, and they want it using plain language terms and formats. Three, they want predictability with reasonable assurances about what their education will cost in future
years. Fourth, they want transparency about the value of their degree or credential so that when they graduate, they'll have a reasonable assurance about the return on their investment. And that all leads to number five, trust. They want to believe that when they see a price, and that's whether
it's in marketing material or financial aid offers or eventually a tuition bill, they can count on that number as presented. Now, colleges and universities, despite their best efforts and real intentions, um, which I think are good, sometimes make that trust hard
to earn. Institutional practices that make perfect sense on paper, uh, from a budget or enrollment standpoint can still cut against the very things that students are asking for. Clarity, consistency, predictability, and transparency. And students, for their
part, they're not asking for a perfect system. They just want one that they can trust. And the good news is that this committee bipartisanly has an opportunity for real progress on four ideas that have already been taken up. One, provide clarity on financial aid offers. Congress can require minimal
components on aid offers with standardized terms and definitions using industry-ledd efforts as a starting point. Hundreds of colleges have already signed on to the college cost transparency initiative, showing it's not only possible to center ourselves
around some standardization, but the time has already come. Two, pair prices with outcomes. Families care about value. Prices should come with clear information about program level results, including debt, earnings, and employment
outcomes. Three, create safe harbors for collaboration. Right now, if colleges want to get together and test pricing practices that would be in students best interests, like tuition guarantees or cohort pricing models, they risk antitrust violations. Schools need some
supervised space for collaboration that doesn't harm the market. And fine, finally, improve early estimates for students and families. Taken together, this will give students and families the right information at the right time to make the right decision for them. Thanks
for the opportunity and I look forward to your questions. >> Dr. Marshall will introduce the next witness. >> Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I'm so proud to introduce Brenda Hicks from Southwestern College, the Mighty Builders. Welcome, Miss Hicks. We're
glad you're here. Thanks for making the trip all the way from Winfield, Kansas, which is where my mother-in-law grew up in her family. So, lots of connections to Winfield, Kansas. Miss Hicks serves as the associate vice president for student financial planning, a director of financial aid at Southwestern and she
has serves as the national chair for the national association of student financial aid administrators remains involved with this organization. When you walk on a southwest campus, southwestern campus, you meet students who are first generation uh students, student athletes, and young parents
working to build a better life. Regardless of the situation, Miss Hicks has helped guide thousands of those students through one of the most stressful and important decisions they'll ever make. With her on the ground experience running a financial aid office, Miss Hicks perspective will bring light to what students are seeing
and dealing with each year as they make one of the most important decisions of their lives. Our big beautiful bill made transformational reforms to student loans. And now we have an opportunity to ensure financial aid looks and works best for its attended groups, the students. Miss Hicks, thank you for your being here and bringing a muchneeded
Kansas perspective to DC. We look forward discussing this important issue more with you. >> Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Kaine, and distinguished members of the committee. My name is Thank you for the honor and opportunity to provide
testimony for today's hearing. I am Brenda Hicks, associate vice president of student financial planning and director of financial aid at Southwestern College in Kansas. Southwestern College is a private Christian liberal arts college located in Winfield, Kansas. Our student body
consists of approximately 10,000 students, a large portion of whom come from lowincome, first generation, rural backgrounds. For over 30 years, Southwestern has provided individualized estimates that deal direct that detail direct charges build by the institution,
aid eligibility, and payment options. As I explained in detail in my written testimony, what works for our students is providing an estimate that clearly communicates direct costs for our student population. Direct costs include tuition, fees, housing, meals, and
books, which paints a nearly full picture of the cost the students will experience to attend Southwestern. What families are looking for is what they will pay the college directly, and that is exactly what our estimate provides. At Southwestern, we spend a lot of time,
energy, and resources thinking about how to clearly communicate cost, financial aid, and payment options so that families have an understanding of what they can expect to spend when they are making the college decision. It is critical that this information is put in
front of students before they make one of the biggest financial decisions of their lives. It is also critical that institutions have the flexibility to customize the information to meet the needs specific needs of each population. Do we believe clearly communicating
college cost is important to the process of selecting and attending college? Absolutely. Do we believe the federal government can create a uniform aid offer or net price calculator that will solve all of our problems? Respectfully, no. We offer the following suggestions
to improve communication about college cost. Allow institutions the flexibility to customize their aid offers for specific student populations. Standardization of contents and definitions in an aid offer is important. Allowing colleges to present
the aid offer in ways that make sense for each of our populations is equally important. We have, for example, seven versions of our financial aid offer. All seven comply with the college cost trans transparency initiative principles,
definitions, and standards. Our adult online students attending part-time have vastly different concerns than our firstear freshmen attending the residential campus. Our messaging and content delivery in each aid offer is customized to the unique population
receiving it. Requiring a fully standardized aid offer hinders our ability to do that. One of my favorite guiding quotes is from author Steven Cvy who says, "You can be efficient with things, but you can only be effective with people." Being effective means
saying the same thing in multiple ways to meet the needs of the person you're speaking with. A uniform financial aid offer may be efficient, but it won't be effective. Second, improve the net price calculator to provide a more accurate net cost
calculation. Suggestions are included in my retin testim testimony for improving the calculator, but at minimum allow families to interact with direct and indirect cost items by toggling them on and off so they can more closely approximate an actual bill and clearly
indicate the year the data represents. Third, rethink the way program data is rep presented on the college scorecard. The incomplete program information in the college scorecard has the potential to frustrate users. ultimately undermining the tools potential.
Simplify the names of programs to a consumer tested list of titles and include all the programs a school offers. Students who use the program comparison feature will expect the search to contain all colleges offering degrees in the programs they are researching. Fourth, provide a simple
calculator that helps students determine how much they should cap their borrowing based on their v vocational choice before it's time to repay. The current loan simulator is designed to be used by students when they are ready to repay debt they've already accumulated. A simplified calculator could be created
to help students determine borrowing capacity based on their vocational choice before they begin borrowing. People who borrow student loans deserve some way to predict what their borrowing limits should be based on their vocational plans. The Southwestern College financial aid team's customer
service goal is to achieve personalized and timely service to students as they complete the financial aid process and increase their awareness of financial literacy. Assisting students in discovering and calculating the cost of attending Southwestern as well as helping them understand how well their
choices mesh with their vocational plans is something we think about nearly every team meeting. I'm honored to be asked to share my perspective on this topic with you. Thank you for including a member of the financial aid profession as you consider policy solutions to better support students and families. I'm h I
look forward to answering questions. >> Our next witness is Dr. Preston Cooper. Uh he is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute or AEI. Before joining AEI, Dr. Cooper was a research fellow at the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity. His research and
commentary have appeared in publications such as the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and The Hill. He's a graduate of SWAT Swathmore College, and received his doctorate in economics from George Mason. Thank you, sir, for being with us. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy. Uh, good
morning, Chairman Cassidy, Senator Kaine, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on improving price transparency in higher education. My name is Preston Cooper and I'm a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute where I study the economics of higher education. My comments today are
my own. It's no secret that college costs too much. But what's less understood is that college prices are deeply opaque. Students and families don't know what they'll actually pay until they've applied, been accepted, and received a financial aid letter. That opacity doesn't just frustrate
families. It weakens competition. When consumers can't see the real price of college, they can't shop around. And when there's no competition, prices rise. Since 1990, the average net price of college, that's what students pay after grants and scholarships, has
nearly doubled in real terms. Today, the typical student pays around $9,400 a year. This has happened despite major increases in financial aid. States are spending record amounts on higher education, and Pell grants and state aid programs have grown substantially. If
tuition had simply risen with inflation after 1990, that additional aid would have made college virtually free. Instead, institutions have captured those subsidies through higher prices, and opaque pricing has helped them do it. Colleges post sticker prices that
few actually pay. They use financial aid to charge each student a different amount based on what they think that student can afford. Variable pricing is not the problem. Lots of industries do that. But when I buy a plane ticket, for instance, I can see all of my options upfront. Students can't do the same with
college. They learn their price only after they've spent time and money applying. And by the time they actually know the price, it's often too late to walk away from a bad deal. Even then, the information can be misleading. A Government Accountability Office report found that 91% of colleges failed to
provide an accurate net price on their financial aid offers. Some labeled loans as aid without even using the word loan. It's no wonder that many students underestimate how much they're borrowing or sometimes don't even realize they've borrowed at all. Financial aid offers usually only cover
the first year. And once students are enrolled, colleges often raise the price. Upperassmen pay thousands of dollars more per year than they did as freshmen. The system is stacked against transparency. You might ask, "Don't we already have net price calculators?" We
do, but these tools are confusing, outdated, and often wildly inaccurate. Some require students to report pages upon pages of financial data. Others only estimate price ranges that can vary by $20,000 or more, and none are binding. There are clear ways to fix
this. Congress can support the Financial Value Transparency Initiative at the Department of Education as well as the College Transparency Act to collect better student level data on net prices. Congress can also require colleges to use standardized financial aid offers,
simple, clear, and uniform, showing grants and loans separately. A bolder option is to require colleges to give students four-year price guarantees so students know the total cost of a degree upfront. An even more transformative change would require binding net price calculators so
students can get a precise estimate of their net price based on their FAFSA data before they actually apply, which colleges would then have to honor should the students decide to enroll. Students shouldn't need to jump through hoops just to understand what college will cost. True transparency would
empower families, drive competition, and bring prices down across higher education. Congress has the power to make that happen by pulling back the curtain on college pricing and giving students the clear, honest information they deserve. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
I asked Senator Kaine to introduce the Democratic witnesses. Our next witness is Miss Angela O'Neal, who is the chief executive officer of Detroit Promise, a program that provides last dollar college scholarships to Detroit
students. Since 2013, the Detroit Promise program has provided tuition assistance to over 8,000 college students. Miss O'Neal is a proud first generation college graduate. She's previously held leadership roles at the Institute for College Access and
Success, the Detroit College Access Network, American University, and the University of Michigan. Miss O'Neil, we're glad to have you today. >> Thank you. Hello, Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Kaine, and distinguished committee members. Um, it's an honor to
be here today. My name is Angela Odin. the chief executive officer for the Detroit Promise Zone Authority, which is an independent organization established by the state legislature to govern, to oversee, and to fund the Detroit Promise program in partnership with the Detroit Regional Chamber. The Detroit Promise
ensures tuitionfree pathways for eligible Detroit high school graduates to pursue a skilled trade, certification, two-year degree, and four-year degree at one of our 32 partner institutions across Michigan. Beyond filling the gap for tuition and mandatory fees, we also provide book
stipens, coaching, wraparound supports, financial incentives, and developmental resources as well. We also collaborate with colleges, employers, and community partners with the Detroit Regional Chamber to address systemic barriers to student success while aligning talent needs. So, it goes without saying that
financial transparency and higher education is vital to the work that we do. But I would be remiss not to emphasize the true barrier for many if not most students is affordability. Transparency helps families make the informed decision. But what is the value
of transparency if I can't afford it? I say this not only as a leading a promise program but also as a financial a former financial aid administrator spending nearly a decade helping thousands of families and as well as my personal lived experience.
I come from poverty. I was raised in a blueco collar household where hard work and trade was a non-negotiable. I went to school for cosmetology and CTE. I graduated saludiatoran of my class and earned many college scholarships as early as the ninth grade. But even with
the tons of scholarship, including a full tuition scholarship and full pel, my greatest challenge was affordability. I worked three part-time jobs as a student while navigating housing, food, and family challenges, yet remain a full-time high achieving pre-law
student. The expectation to juggle everything is just unrealistic. Even for me as a high scholar, let alone my peers that didn't have the same tools or agency that I had. After graduation, I changed the trajectory of my career to ensure that students who come after me
don't have to endure the same hardships that I did. That was nearly 20 years ago. And today, the cost of living has nearly tripled. So, I can only imagine what students are enduring today. And the Pell Grant has barely grown in that time period. For many students, the math
just doesn't add up. The true cost is the full cost of attendance, not just tuition and fees. And that includes housing, food, transportation, health care, technology, and for our student parents also uh the childcare elements as well. All of which continues to rise faster than the resources that are made
available to them, including the limited earning potential that they have with a high school diploma in terms of employment. Hence why I had to work three jobs because this just simply wasn't enough. This is why we have to link financial transparency reforms with real
investments. Investments that improve affordability and strengthen wraparound supports. The two go hand in hand. One doesn't work without the other. Transparency without affordability gives family information that they can't do anything with. And affordability without transparency creates gaps that leads to
confusion and missteps for students and families. Our national trajectory demands that we treat higher education as an essential infrastructure. Like how we made high school universal during the growing industrial economy period, which strengthened the middle class and fueled our economy, we must do the same as we
transition to a knowledgebased and technology based economy. When more people have access to education, communities grow stronger. Reliance on public assistance, poverty, crime, unemployment all declines while overall health, civic participation, and local
economies improve. Incomes postgraduation may seem like it's not worth it. But the degrees will not only those with degrees will not only earn more and contribute more in taxes in their lifetime than those with a high school diploma, even surpassing the trade space. The benefits of higher
education extend beyond the individual graduate and strengthens the entire nation. It's imperative that we see post-secondary as a public good achieve with strengthening fed state partnerships, creating robust financial need-based aid like beefing up the Pell
Grants um all while also advancing financial transparency. We should not see this as charity but as sound economic strategy. So I thank you and I look forward to the questions that you guys have. Thank you very much. Our final witness is Mark Yulman who is the director of
policy and advocacy at the Hope Center for Student Basic Needs where he focuses on higher education and safety net policies to support students basic needs and improve college affordability. Uh Mark previously held roles at Deemos, the Institute for Higher Education
Policy, New America, and the Brookings Foundation. Please proceed with your testimony. Good morning, Chairman Cassidy, Senator Kaine, and members of the committee. Uh my name is Mark Hulesman. I'm the director of policy and advocacy at the Hope Center for Student Basic Needs House to Temple University and a fellow
with Protect Borrowers. I'd like to begin today with a quote uh on the topic at hand from about 55 years ago. It goes, "No qualified student who wants to go to college should be barred by lack of money. That has long been a great American goal, and I propose we achieve it now." This call to action came from
President Richard Nixon in a statement to this body in 1970, proposing many of the elements that make up our current financial aid system. Yet today, that system is broken as millions of families struggle with college costs that are neither transparent nor remotely affordable. Our survey data finds that
three in five students in higher education face food or housing insecurity. Nearly 1.4 million college students are homeless. and millions more cannot afford rising rent, utilities, health care, or child care. We cannot expect students to succeed without food
on the table or a roof over their head. Yet, this is exactly what we ask millions of students across the country every day. Students are swept up in a cost of living crisis. Despite a few years of overly optimistic headlines, tuition is climbing once again, and non-tuition costs, which actually make
up the bulk of the cost of attendance, are spiraling out of control. These costs are unpredictable. They can spike unexpectedly and they drive up debt. State budgets also remain unstable. In fact, 32 states are funding public higher ed at lower per student levels than they were at the beginning of this
century. And Pell grants now cover just one quarter of the cost of public college. Meanwhile, safety net programs like SNAP often lock low-income students out due to complex rules and extreme red tape. Twothirds of college students who are likely eligible for SNAP do not
receive it. Instead, they go hungry, they drop out, or both. This is the reality facing students and families, and it must be the backdrop for any conversation about financial transparency in higher education. That's why I urge this committee not just to find ways to increase clarity, but do
everything in its power to lower the price that students pay. Transparent prices are meaningless if students cannot meet them. The simplest way and most powerful way to ensure clear, predictable college costs would be a federal state partnership that offers a guarantee of tuitionfree or debt-free
public college. I want to thank ranking member Sanders especially for his leadership in pushing that idea into the mainstream. Students also deserve a clear and realistic understanding of all of their costs. Currently, non-tuition costs are remarkably confusing and the methods colleges use to calculate their estimates for living costs are largely
unregulated. Colleges often produce highly inaccurate estimates which lowers the aid that students can receive. This committee should build on its bipartisan success in improving cost of attendance definitions by also standardizing financial aid offers, including new guidelines for living costs, and providing students with better chances
to appeal when schools get it wrong. Likewise, I ask the committee to ensure that students have access to emergency aid when life happens and unexpected costs inevitably come up. No one should have to drop out because of a surprise medical bill or a car repair. And students also need federal agencies
that can actually accomplish this committee's goal of transparency for students and borrowers. Many of the bipartisan reforms being discussed today require staffing capacity at the Department of Education that frankly at this moment no longer exists, including in the Institute for Education Sciences.
Meanwhile, the Trump administration has worked to dismantle the CFPB, which provides oversight and essential information to borrowers and conducts essential research on the student loan market. Sadly, the One Big Beautiful Bill Act takes us in the wrong direction on both affordability and transparency.
The law's new annual and lifetime loan caps are likely to cause a massive spike in the number of students taking out private student loans. The private student loan market is infamous for being a black box within consumer finance. These loans lack basic transparency and federal reporting requirements, meaning we actually know
little about them. But what we do know is troubling. Private loans make up an outsized portion of student loan complaints, and these loans lack the same consumer protections and repayment options as federal student loans. Many private lenders avoid lending to low-income students altogether or lend
on predatory terms. Other provisions in the bill will also increase costs. The over $1 trillion to cuts in SNAP and Medicaid will place enormous pressure on state budgets, which almost always means cuts to higher ed. The students we hear from every day facing hunger or housing
insecurity deserve better. They deserve everything because they are the very essence of the American dream. They overcome unimaginable challenges amidst an affordability crisis and an administration that is slashed so much. They deserve more than a system that often leaves them confused, indebted, or
out of options. I hope we can build that system together. Thanks. I look forward to your questions. >> To begin questioning, I shall defer to Dr. Marshall. Chairman and ranking member, thanks for holding this hearing and I'm always amazed how often in this committee we
agree on the same goals. Um, we all agree that there are affordability issues today. Uh, there are results of four years of inflation from 2021 until uh the start of this year. And of course, inflation is cumulative. We saw
that nowhere more than in uh housing and health care, transportation, and food costs. often those going up 20 to 25% and education uh costs are going up as well. I guess sometimes where we differ on the
solution is is just throwing more money at it. That this more federal spending on tuition is just going to drive that inflation up and that that isn't really making it more affordable. was just shifting the
cost from students and and shifting it to the federal government. And like one of our witnesses, I was a first generation college student. I was that student who had the choices between going to the university, but I chose to go to a community college. Was a varsity
athlete working three jobs just like you described in in medical school. I had the choice between borrowing money or joining the army. So I joined the army as well, the army reserve in specifically. Um, so there's other choices out there other than just getting more money from the federal
government. And by the way, no one said this should be easy. No one said it should be easy. I'm so grateful for those experiences, those part-time jobs I had to take. I learned so much at those from working at a cell barn to a to working in the toy department of Walmart and a bartender. Those were all
great experience that helped me to become a better doctor. Um, Miss Hicks, we'll start with you. the College Transparency Act. I hope you've had a chance to look at a little bit. Any thoughts of the pros and cons of this College Transparency Act?
>> No, I I did take take a look at it and it is very good. Yeah, I think that a couple of things I see. I see that I I appreciate and like how the protections are in place with privacy for the student at the student level. I also
think and see that a student level data field would help ease some of the administrative burden that we have. Um, I think anything any policy that helps me spend more time on an interaction with a student is is a
good policy. Um, and takes me away from doing the kind of the more the reporting. >> Great. Uh, let's talk about the the FAFSA act simplification act. when the this latest PASIC uh issue or report
came out, you actually attended one of the roundts I sat down with to listen to all everyone's concerns about it. Um and I I haven't heard as much lately about it. Did we get the problem solved and and how did it get solved? >> Yeah, I I think that the department
worked really hard to um do testing this time around and it is delightful to to fill out a government. It's delightful. Yeah, it it um it takes less than 10 minutes per contributor nights. I would I usually go out to the local high
schools and help them do financial aid nights and help people fill out the FAFSA. We used to spend hours at those helping people. We spent I think the last one at my local little Burden High School, we were there for 30 minutes and everybody was done. It was great.
>> Great. Uh probably my last question I'll say with Miss Hick. What are some actions we could take to ensure it is clear to students what kind of aid they are receiving is the way different schools provide this informations to students uniform across schools. Um, so
I I think um improvements could be made there, but again, I think that that as I said in my testimony, I think requiring standard definitions and terms, requiring those elements is important, but then I think flexibility is important also so that
schools can describe those elements and present those elements in ways that make sense for their populations. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Senator Kaine, >> I wish I had 40 minutes of questions, but I'm going to try to do it in five.
I'm gonna ask a question first to you, Mr. Yulesman, but anyone else who wants to weigh in, I would appreciate it. How important is public service loan forgiveness as a component of affordability? >> Thank you for the question, Senator. Um, the public service loan forgiveness
program uh is is a I think it's a really powerful program because it was it was a bipartisan program. was assigned it was signed into law by by George W. Bush. And you know, effectively the promise that it makes is that if you want to serve your country or your community. Um you college debt or the price of college
should not be something that holds you back from doing that. Um and I I believe and I'm worried about um you know an administration that has increasingly tried to weaponize uh the public service loan forgiveness program and potentially you know resend eligibility for people who don't necessarily share their
ideology. Um, but it can be a really powerful tool in not only helping people understand that college is for them, right? That loans aren't going to be a lifetime burden for them. It's only 10 years if they if they commit 10 years to public service. Um, and I I worry that
the more that we politicize the program, the the more that that power goes away. >> Do others also agree that the public service loan forgiveness program is a is a positive for students and families? Yes, I I could speak to that directly as being a recipient of public service loan
forgiveness. Um, just looking at the industries in general and we look at the assessment of what students are making after they graduate. Many that land in the nonprofit sector in some of these essential roles like child care and teachers and counselors. That becomes
the benefit of being able to serve in that way in terms of being able to have access to public service loan forgiveness because you don't make a lot of money. And that is a sacrifice that you're making when you choose those industries. And as someone who is from the city of Detroit, students from these type of communities usually lean and
aspired to the roles in which they needed the most support from. So being able to have the opportunity of being to pursue what you needed most as a youth in terms of your professional career and not be indebted with this aspect of this
long lifelong debt hold to pursue that career to actually provide services to your community. Yes, it's a a wonderful and I say this personally as someone who's received it and been able to commit my career to giving back to students. >> This is something I think we need to pay some special attention to. During the
first Trump administration, the Department of Education only approved less than 1% of those who were eligible for a public service loan forgiveness. During the four years of the Biden administration, 33,000 Virginiaians received public service loan forgiveness. Really, really important
program. There is a regulation that the DOE has proposed that would suggest the possibility of conditioning loan forgiveness on the kind of organization you work for and the political views they may hold. That's very dangerous.
But I'm also really concerned about just the sheer numbers of who gets approved and who doesn't. We need to watch that going forward. Mr. Dr. Dreger, you you talked about the statistics that you brought up really interested me about people think college is too expensive, but they dramatically overestimate the
costs. And that's something that we really need to get at. Um, you know, if you're in a hotel and you look at the rack rate that's on the door, it's like 10 times what you paid for the room. No one thinks that's the real cost that you're paying, but a lot of people, and this happened when I was a kid, I got
accepted to a number of colleges and my parents then had to come and say, you know what, we've realized we can't afford any of these schools because it was confusing in 1976. It's more confusing now. One thing that I think really works, and Dr. Cooper, you're a
Mason grad. 50% of George Mason students start in community college. And on graduation day, you can't tell from GPA who started in community college. You can't tell from the jobs they're getting or the graduate programs they're going to, but the one way you
can tell is how much debt they have. Virginia used to not have articulation agreements between community colleges and the four years. So, you didn't know when you got an associate degree, is that two years of credit or a year of credit? And you also didn't know that you'd be guaranteed admission to a state school. So I think articulation
agreements and transparency and families understanding that you could start in community college and then go to Mason or go to UVA and you get the degree but you get it at a pretty significant discount over what you would pay four years at the institution. What can we do
to to more um you know in a more powerful way present these kinds of alternatives or dual enrollment for high school students? I went through the University of Missouri in three years because I had dual enrollment in high school. That saved my parents 25% of the cost of a college education. But a lot
of people either don't know about those programs or they may go to schools that don't have access to them. And now my time's up just after I've asked this great question. Could I let him tackle it a little bit? Thank you. >> I'll answer very quickly and just say what we heard from students and families in our focus group was right information
at the right time helps them make the right decision. So if we can get information early in high school about the costs and the pathways and they don't see themselves in averages, the question they're asking is what will it cost me? So, these net price
calculators, if they can enter a basic amount of information and get a real price back that that will impact them and show them a pathway, whether it's a two-year articulated agreement or a dual enrollment, that helps them choose a pathway early in high school that will lead them to a value proposition and an
ROI to help them make the right choice. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Senator Kaine. Senator Huststead. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I get to break out the same chart two weeks in a row. Uh here we talk about price changes from
December 2000 to December 2024. What costs? We talk about inflation and affordability. What costs went up the most? One was hospital services. We talked about that last week. And the other college tuition fees, college
textbooks. Uh these are two things that the government are is most intently involved in intervening, operating and subsidizing. And yet they are the places that we see the most inflation. Uh I
think this is particularly true with colleges because the more you give, the more the beast feeds. Uh it just keeps driving up prices. And it's ironic that we're here today given that yesterday we had a bunch of bluecollar folks in here
from labor unions who are talking about apprenticeships. What is an apprenticeship? An apprenticeship is earn and learn in partnership with an employer where you're earning money. You're getting an education
that leads directly to a job. college in many cases, pay the tuition and hope that you got an education that was somehow going to prepare you for work. This model is broken, very very broken because it's based on
an archaic way of thinking about the economy and education. And I I can share this. Uh Senator Kaine mentioned, you know, articulation agreements, early college. These are things that states are doing because I worked on this at the state level. In
Ohio today, you can you can leave high school with a associates or bachelor's degree if you started early enough. You can leave with workforce credentials. You can leave with apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeships. You can you can go
and have lifelong learning for free under a program tech as long as it's affiliated with the job. So there are pathways to making an education very affordable to do this in our country right now. Many states have wonderful ways to doing
this. But colleges and universities have not largely changed their business model for a very very long time. and they are driving up the cost of the traditional way of doing this at a time when employers are hiring skills, not degrees. Even with a degree, it's no
guarantee that it leads to a job if it's not connected to an employer and a skill that's actually valued in the workplace. So, we need to think about all of this very differently. And that's why uh one of the ways that we can do this is make informed
consumers because this is a huge cho choice. But you can't make a good choice unless you have all the facts. And uh what we've introduced, Senator Tuberville and I have introduced um legislation to codify uh the elements of
the college scorecard, a bill which would allow students and families to have access to data like estimated earnings. How much if I go to this school and I major in this, what am I likely to earn? What what what student loan debt do people at the school you usually graduate with? What are the
default rates? so that people know exactly what they're getting themselves into before uh they make a decision to make a huge huge investment. So, I I'll uh get give Miss Hicks the chance to talk about this
as the director of financial aid. Uh h help me. Is Isn't that what we should be doing? Is that something that you could support? >> Sure. Um, yeah, I think it's really important for students to have as much information as possible before they make
a college decision. I also I think I'll answer it this way. Um, one of my favorite quotes that I talk about a lot with students is um, from Mark Twain and it says um, experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. And in
a financial aid office, many times what I deal with and when I'm working with students, I get them at the moment of that experience. >> And so I I work with them when they are kind of at their lowest. They've hit a hit a point where they need to make decisions. They're ready to listen. And
I love having tools available to me to help them through that. it's my job to jump in the canoe with them and give them their information um that they need, help them paddle if that's what they need me to do or help point out all the situations um and get them fluffed
up and back on the journey. Well, I want to also add that in uh the budget reconciliation package, we had workforce PEL. For the first time, we're allowing PEL grants to be used for workforce credentials, not just degrees, which will help many of our students have a
chance to to um earn a skill, go to work, and do what I talked about earlier in more of an apprenticeship model than ship you away. Mr. Chairman, since there's no one else in here, can I can I have a an an additional
question here? Um, uh, to Mr. Cooper. Uh, you saw that chart. I mean, the cost of the thing, I mean, we keep talk, we have $ 38 trillion of debt in this nation. $ 38 trillion in debt. And the solution we keep coming up
with is subsidize things more and more and more rather than figuring out how to bring the cost down to the consumer. Uh what thoughts do you have on how we make college more affordable? >> Thank you, Senator. That uh chart is from my AEI colleague Mark Perry. He calls it the chart of the century and I
really think it deserves that title. You're absolutely right that we see that industries such as healthcare and higher education where the government has gotten more involved are also industries that have seen the biggest price increases. And this is not for a lack of public subsidy. The amount of financial
aid uh that is given by federal and state governments and other non-institutional sources to the average student has tripled in real terms since 1990 uh from about $1,700 a student to $5,300 a student. Low-income students now get over $11,000 in financial aid on
average. This should have made college very inexpensive, but the problem is colleges have raised their prices even more. and the taxpayers and students are basically struggling to keep up because colleges have raised their prices far in excess of inflation, far in excess of
what taxpayers are able to support. I say it's like the Red Queen said to Alice, you know, it's uh taxpayers are running faster just to stay in place with college costs. >> Yeah. Well, thank you very much uh Mr. Chairman. appreciate you uh giving me a chance to this is we have to break
change the business model here and we have to figure out how we're going to make college more relevant more affordable lead to careers skills are getting hired not degrees and colleges are really going to face a challenge because we have a demographic problem we have fewer and fewer people turning 18
years old they're going to have fewer and fewer customers and the marketplace will no longer tolerate the cost that's being uh uh demanded and we're in for a real awakening. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you, Senator Huststead. I'm going to ask a bunch of questions. Ask to keep
your answers tight. If I interrupt, it's not to be rude. Um, Mr. Cooper, following up on what you just said, or Miss Hicks, sorry you, Miss Hicks. I spoke to my the president of LSU and I said, "Your costs are going up." He goes, "My costs are going up because the
federal government keeps on requiring me to have more overhead. I've got to do this, this, this, and this, which formerly I did not have to do." And so Mr. Dr. Cooper pointing out that the cost has continued to rise the more federal government has been involved. He would say yes because you're mandating me to spend more money on salaries and
salaries is difficult to replace uh with say efficiencies. Uh is his observation ring true for you? Well, I'm not the CFO of the college and I know that the budget is a concern um
and the demographic cliff is a concern um with our my upper leadership. Um so yeah, I mean that that resonates. >> Dr. Cooper, >> yes, I think that absolutely resonates. Uh Vanderbilt uh center has done some very uh good work on the cost of
regulation in higher education. It's mostly on the uh the research side. All the uh uh requirements that the federal government attaches to research grants. >> Now I was told though for example the fact that you know he said we we used to call it um HR but now we call it something else. But the fact is a lot of
the stuff the Biden administration had in terms of okay you need got to measure the outcome of different groups. Whatever you think about it that required more people to be hired and different agencies different agencies different agencies all responding to pressure from the federal government. Again, is he overstating or is that
valid? Because I've read that the administrative portion of a university has grown quite over the last decades whereas the teaching faculty relative to the number of students has remained constant. >> That's correct. We've definitely seen
that the drivers of college cost increases tend to be on the administrative side. Uh part of that is definitely due to federal regulation, but I think part of that is also due to the subsidies that the federal government and state governments make available to higher education, which uh you know feeds the beast, so to speak,
and results in a higher administrative uh burden, higher administrative apparatus on campus. >> Mr. Drager, uh part of the part of the rationale behind the college transparency act, uh several congresses ago, we had someone I think from Georgia Southern, they had a 500point thing
where they followed each student. Now, we know that African-American males have been those who that subset of folks who've had the most difficult time completing four years. They found that they had completely erase gender and race differentials by doing this. And
they would track each child, each student, and if, for example, last semester they needed 500 bucks to get through that final semester, they'd give them 500 bucks and then they'd graduate with a degree as opposed to merely having lots of debt. So speak to the power of the college transparency act.
As I say, you look in the mirror, whatever you look like, whatever your SEC background, not Southeastern Conference, but social economics, that you'd be able to have a sense of your chance of graduating at this university, if it's like that particular university I meant, which is tracking you to make
sure you do well as opposed to another which once you've paid your dues that you're on your own. >> No question. The better the data that we have on students, the better that we're able to track. Now tell me the fact that Georgia Southern's got 500 pieces of data if I remember correctly that they're tracking tells me that the data is already there.
>> Yep. And the better that we're able then to provide the right information at the right time. Um our uh the Strata Education Foundation President and CEO testified about this on the House side earlier this year and showed some of the trade-offs we get when we don't have that data and all the data that we can
use then to provide students and families the right supports and the information that they're asking for. Now, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit nervous about just willy-nilly expanding support programs. There's a woman once, I won't tell the tragic circumstances by which I met her, but nonetheless, she
had left college, but she'd used her Pell Grant to buy furniture. And so, no, I suppose you need furniture, but the Pell Grant's supposed to pay for tuition, uh, and supposed to pay for the meal plan. It's supposed to pay for the cost of the car. Uh, and now she had to leave college after one semester or two
semesters, and she's left with a lot of debt. um 10 years later she's it wasn't a PEL grant it was a scholarship she whatever it was it was unrestricted um so I'm a little bit nervous so uh Mr. Holman speaks about the need for
basically wraparound services but there's a woodworking effect there. The more money you provide the more people will take it up even if it is not necessary rather it is just optional. If I may tell the story of my wife she borrow money as a medical student and
went to Australia. I chuckle because I paid off that loan. Uh anyway it's kind of a bitter chuckle. Uh but but anyway aside from that you know it's a woodworking effect. You have free dollars. you end up doing things that you otherwise wouldn't do. Uh Mr. Drager, will you comment on that?
>> Um I would uh say that there's plenty of room for debate about sub the right level of subsidization, bringing it back to transparency, though. Um when we focus in on what students and families actually need and how we can uh meet those needs, we're giving them the right
information to make the right choices. I'd also just add, we've talked a lot about accountability and you're getting at this issue of how do we make sure that the dollars are used in the right way. We have federal accountability, state accountability, accredititor accountability. The one we haven't talked about is market accountability.
When we have transparent pricing, students and families also vote with their feet and we introduce better market accountability where they make choices based on actual value and price. >> That is the that is the rationale for college transparency act. Yes. Which I
think would work. Uh, Senator Marky. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, it's my great honor to serve on this committee as the voice of the people of Massachusetts uh on these great issues of our time.
And it's a great honor to be here as a voice for so many students and professors and researchers and workers and leaders that make our colleges and universities an ep epicenter of equity and an envy for the rest of the world.
That's what the Massachusetts educational system is. But our work and the way of life that we have created is under attack by Donald Trump. Trump's ceaseless political onslaught on higher education has delayed the cure for
cancer, decimated a generation of researchers, and driven the American dream out of reach for countless families. And so to that end, Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter a dozen letters into the record from my constituents in Massachusetts
who are on the front lines of these attacks. >> Without objection. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh I'd like to just share a couple of the messages from those leaders from Massachusetts. I have a letter from a PhD student who
said, "I live with congenital musculardrophe." Uh but that has not stopped me from pursuing my goal of curing my disease through research and education. However, these opportunities are becoming harder for me and my peers to achieve due due
to the newly uncertain environment. With the changes to NIH funding and grant dispersement, my lab has had to cut back on taking new students. And this is not only an inconvenience, but also backs up the promising research. I implore you to
support stability, funding, and the environment we need to do the long-term research to benefit Americans like me. And I'll just read one other quick letter, Mr. Chairman, and that's a a first generation master's degree student
from Amherst, Massachusetts. and they shared this. The financial support I received through university funding programs and grants is vital for my ability to continue my studies and research in the critical field of infectious disease. Without this funding, I face the immediate risk of
losing my livelihood. This situation places me in with undue burdens. uh and students like me who already face financial challenges as first generation learn learners are the ones who are put
at risk and I have several other letters Mr. Chairman and I thank you for the unanimous consent motion to uh be able to insert them all in the record but I just think it's just so important that we hear the voices of those who are being so negatively impacted by the
policies of the Trump administration and with that Mr. Um, chairman, I yield back. >> Just in the nick of time, Hickin Looper shows up. You know what I'm saying? And and and breaks our string of Irish guys, you know, Kain, Sullivan, Cassidy, and
Marky. Uh, Senator Hickinlooper. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, and thanks all of you, um, for your work on this. Uh these are issues that I as a former mayor and a former governor uh have spent a lot of time working on,
debating, negotiating, and trying to figure out how do we get to that system where more kids have a better future. um they have the education that they need and and want and and and it will be
useful to them and they do so at the lowest possible cost in ways that they can that allow them to graduate, work, pay off the debt and have their fair shot at at at the American dream. Um Mr. Dger, let me
start with you. Um and it's been discussed a bunch already. um the College Transparency Act, which I'm one of the numerous supporters, is going to help provide a lot of this uh critical information. Um
and not just to students, but to families. Um in your testimony, you talked the key wasn't just transparent information, but transparent information that's personal to what students experience, how they live, and and what's relevant to them. Uh you mentioned a few options of how to
utilize net price calculators more widely. Um there are clearly challenges to that um uh to the getting that the that in place that isn't overly cumbersome. Um what do you think is the
best pathway to to get more of this information to students when it's when it's most valuable? >> There are a couple different pathways that we could pursue. Certainly one at the federal level. Um there are also conversations that we've been having with states about using some of their
data sets in partnership with institutions. The goal is the same though whether it's through the college transparency act or whether it's through state uh unit record uh data and it's to deliver what students and families have told us they
want um through our focus groups which is they think about affordability as a two-part equation. upfront costs but return on investment value. And in both situations, we want to deliver to them what the odds are of them completing their program, what the student debt
would be, and the return on investment. And the way we do that is with better data, and then delivering them those results. >> I couldn't agree more. Um, uh, Miss Oden Neil, uh, first I just want to throw out the was the Detroit
Promise, was that based on the Kalamazoo promise? That's similar. >> Yes, it's similar to the Kazoo Promise >> because it's funny. We, you know, we uh we started something called the Denver Scholarship Foundation almost in lock step with the with the Kalamazoo
Promise. So, I love to see the permutations. We actually finally got a sales tax passed. So now we can go into literally every third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade classroom and tell the kids in Denver public schools, if you work hard enough, money will not be
the reason you don't go to college. You will, we guarantee you if you work hard enough and get accepted to a college and you can keep your grades up, we will make sure you don't have debt coming out of college. And that's uh for a long time we could we still had debt. We could we limited the debt dramatically and now I think we're at that point
where we're um able to eliminate uh debt. I want to talk a little bit about trio. I mean, I do I think getting to the kids at an early age like that just in terms of finishing the Detroit Promise. When kids believe they've got a
future like that, they're going to pay more attention in class, you're going to have a more a less unruly class. And if you spent to a you know, when I ran for mayor, I said I if I got elected, I'd visit every school in my first four years. So, I I spent four years going to a different
public school every week. and I see how unruly they can be. Uh but if they believe they got a future, they pay more attention and the whole class learns better. I mean, it really is a rising tide situation. TRIO is similar in in many ways. Um it offers several programs
designed to expand access for college education, especially for first generation students. Um in Colorado, we got 17,000 kids in three different uh TRIO programs or multiple different TRIO programs. Um uh unfortunately the
administration has has hel withheld the funding uh including to Colorado universities. Um we believe that's illegal. Uh President Trump's 26 budget seeks to entirely eliminate TRIO. Um without TRIO
what additional barriers um will first generation students uh have to encounter and overcome? >> I would say the most important thing is that you don't know what you don't know. So TRIO programs are both on the K12 as well as the higher ed side to support
student in translating and creating that transparency that is necessary especially for a first generation student who doesn't have the family to lean on and understand post-secary education. So TRIO and getting that opportunity of programming helps expose them and introduce them to the jargon,
the language, the steps, the transparency that we're talking about today and it becomes a very critical piece before and after a student enrolls in college in terms of those supports that they receive to translate the information that is then being provided to them. >> Well said. Thank you very much. I yield
back to the chair. >> For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the records are due 5:00 p. a.m. Friday, November 21st. Thank you for being here. A very illuminating conversation. Um the the committee stands adjourned.