##VIDEO ID:-X3d6GzCN90## e e e e e good good evening everyone uh I call this meeting of the township ofie and planning board to order at 7:03 p.m. uh Sun uh Sunshine notice please certainly pursuant to the open public meetings La notice of this meeting to time and place was Satisfied by the filing of an annual notice with the local source and the Star Ledger newspapers of General circulation within the township of Union and posted on the bulletin board of the township of Union Municipal Building excuse me roll call please Mr Alexander here Mr Cohan here miss Espinosa Mr fr here Mr Miller here Miss Perkins here mayor Bowser here Moman derell here miss Khan here miss colled here chairman Lei here uh can we have the swearing of the engineer will you ra raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do uh the first item that we have is the approval of the minutes from the December 16 24 meeting can I get a motion to approve the minutes so move move by Mr Cohan is there a second seconded by Mr fr uh roll call please Mr Alexander yesan yes Mr fr yes Mr Miller yes Miss Perkins yes mayor Bowser yes committee woman Terrell yes Miss Khan yes Miss khid abstain chairman leay yes uh there are no new resolutions on the agenda we do have two uh new business items here uh the first pertains to the continuance of application 20244 watching developers LLC um I guess can I call the representative um Mr chair may I speak please oh yes please I'm conflicted and I'll leave the days at this point in time until the another case may be heard yes thank you okay thank you very much Mr chairman and board members members of the public and thank you for your continued time and attention in this matter and to the board professionals uh thanks for coming out on little warmer night tonight and last couple of nights but just by way of a brief recap we were here in December and uh began our official presentation of the case we had a previous where there were some introduction stat ments and all but again this is an application uh for a uh 11 unit uh multif family structure uh just Again by way of recap we're in the NC Zone the multif family is permitted use in the zone and as I said at the outset last time and our professional planner and traffic engineer will emphasize this is a far less intense use than any many of the other permitted uses including a child care center a restaurant a brew pub retail sales and service services medical office hospitals doubt you could fit a hospital there but I guess you could have some type of small hospital and even a fast food restaurant without a drive-thru is permitted there uh our project originally is submitted uh did have a couple of variances but then we revised the project and complied with all of the bulk requirements and Zone requirements for the site the only variance associated with the property is that the lot width requirement in the zone is 150 ft we have 140t but our project doesn't uh that doesn't impact our project at all we still comply I said with setbacks bulk requirements height density and the like um so at the last hearing we had testimony from our site engineer Mark Ramo uh our architect Mark Marion who uh Mark Ramo took us through the site plans and addressed all the comments and the colar review Mark Maran talked about the uh architectural design for the building and then we also had uh Jerry Nas our a fire expert who took us through all the comments to date at the fire department what we'd like to do this evening uh and I'll call her up in a second is move on to our traffic engineer again traffic isn't really an issue here it's permitted use in the zone off-site traffic as the board is no doubt aware is a consideration for uh uh zoning throughout the town uh and we again we comply with uh with all the parking requirement from the municipality uh I will note that since the last hearing uh we did have two items uh our engineer wrote to your engineer and provided some data on the drainage which I know was discussed at the last meeting I'll defer to your engineer but uh we did get a response back from Mr denave that uh all issues with respect to drainage from the property have been addressed and uh there would be plans just incorporating into that we also received actually later today an email from the fire department from uh the uh fire department confirming that they were in 100% agreement with the recommendations of our fire expert as long as they were then incorporated into our plans but there's a detailed email I think uh Dan I think we sent you a copy of that the board has copies all right you have a copy of that and we're in 100% agreement that we will uh all of those items would be incorporated including the upgraded sprinkler system and all the fire ratings and the like so that's a a brief overview where we stand Mr chairman and board members and uh if there's no preliminary questions uh Brianna uh just just a couple questions sure just uh administratively on my end so you have a traffic engineer come up are are you calling back also Mr Ramos and Mr NIS to provide an overview of those uh two updated items or we can if the board likes sure yeah and then is your traffic engineer also your planner I no we have a separate planner separate planner okay yeah and that you you'll be calling that individual forward Yep they're they're all here okay wonderful excuse me Mr chair yeah yeah I was I was going to I was going to call you up Mr liberman um so are there any other wi that you're going to be calling tonight we don't expect to no okay um as we call each of the witnesses from the applicant obviously uh Mr Liber men you will have the opportunity uh to ask questions on behalf of the largemont cfic association from my understanding at the last hearing as well that you might also be H calling Witnesses on your end is that correct well I was going to well two things that I wanted first of all I did we've asked on a few occasions if there are any updates any documents we've been told there aren't so this is a complete surprised that there's something from the fire department I didn't receive a copy from Council I'd like to see that letter before just received it late today excuse me chairman I can address it I got the email at 459 and I did email over to Jennifer that which probably you were not able to get let me tell you this I have never seen a clerk for a board that is as responsive and absolutely polite to everyone in the world as you are and I we putting this on you you are the best and that you should the world should know that by the way so this is obviously nothing that has anything to do with you or anybody it it's a timing issue but I would like to just see it that's all I got aop for you Mr Le just for the record as well um I I only got these two updated correspondents literally maybe an hour ago myself so I'm I'm not pointing a finger no I just want to see it that's all I want to see so so for for the benefit of you and as well as the public I think it would probably be good that we do call Mr Ramos back up um who provideed the correspondence with with the drainage and as well as Mr NIS the fire uh expert um to provide an update on I guess the correspondence with uh the fire inspector Mr Guzman I just want to see the letter that's all yeah I just want to see it so if somebody could get me a copy do you have an extra copy of it sure I appreciate it thanks a lot and then the other thing is procedurally how do you want to do this I've got people that are in the organization that during public comment not during course examination want to speak my understanding is is that you just let them speak even if they're me or do you want me to call them as Witnesses it's going to be the exact same thing either way it's just up to you how you do it I guess it's so usually what what tends to happen with the hearing of an application is that once all can you all okay back once all Witnesses are called and cross- examination happens and everything of that nature we do allow essentially both sides to uh summate and then we do open it up for public comments um before the board would take a vote so what I would say is at your discretion if you want to call witnesses up and just ask some questions along the way it is your discretion but we will basically open up the floor you'll let them speak even though they're members of my organization that's what I'm trying to get at or do I have to call them that's no no no no I I I think the culation at the last meeting was that you are basically cross-examining on on behalf of the civic association asking basically questions of right the ablates witnesses and you're basically you're the gatekeeper with regards to that that's right um but when it comes to just open public comments basically any any we're on the same page okay thank you very much I appreciate it yeah no problem any other questions on procedure I just want to manage and expectations appropriately so no one's surprised all good good here okay all right so Mr chairman I think what I like to do is put our traffic engineer get through that and then we can bring back Mr NIS and Mr Ros to address those those two areas all right okay great thank you very much so I'd like to call Rihanna Kirk off can you state your name and uh spell your last name for the record sure uh Rihanna kof k i r c h h f m Kirk call do you um solemnly swear that the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you okay and M kirkoff if you could please give the board and the public that and the board professionals the benefit of work educational experience area of expertise and any license you hold and whether you've been accepted as professional traffic engineer before their boards or courts of the state of New Jersey absolutely I am a senior project engineer at Dolan and Dean Consulting Engineers I've been part of the traffic engineering industry for roughly 10 years um I'm a graduate of Stevens Institute of Technology where I received a bachelor of engineering and civil engineering and I have a uh I hold a u PE in the state of New Jersey and I've been accepted as an expert in front of this board probably a couple years ago as well as other boards across the state the board stipulates great thank you Mr chairman okay uh uh so M kers if you could take the bo the board and the public through your findings as I said in my in my opening I second opening uh uh it's a permitted use and we comply with the bulk requirements but just briefly take us through the results of of your findings with respect to traffic and parking absolutely um so from a traffic engineering perspective the proposed development is a light case uh you've heard that it's a three-story building with uh 11 units within that building um access is proposed along um largemont road with a full movement driveway I'm going to going to just open up a plan sheet so I can walk you through this and you have a visual so um the property is uh located Bound by Morris uh Avenue which is Route 82 to the South and large Mount Road to the West with Residential Properties to the East and to the north uh the adjacent land uses in the immediate area is a mix of residential business and Commercial and on street parking is permitted along Mar Larchmont Road um but is prohibited along uh Morris Avenue let me see if I can there we go um so Morris Avenue like I said is Route 82 uh through this uh area it's a four lane Urban principal arterial that's under NJ doot jurisdiction we have two lanes in each Direction and The posted speed limit along Morris Avenue is 35 mph um what we have Along Watch road is a local roadway with a single Lan in each Direction and it has a Post-It speed limit of 25 mph so that's a little bit of background given um where the property is in the surrounding roadway Network what I'm sure everyone would like to hear is about trip Generation Um so I'm going to pull up and exhibit my office prepared to just give you guys a visual as I walk through um some numbers so as I'm sure the board has heard testimony before about trip generation and perhaps Mr chairman we could I believe we're up to A3 if we could mark this exhibit as A3 so sorry Ram no not a problem um so what what we've done is we've relied on The Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation manual um we are now in the 11th edition of this trip generation manual and what we have done is we've referenced land use code to2 which is multif family housing for lowrise buildings lowrise buildings are three stories or less and based on the empirical data compiled by it an 11 unit Residential Building would generate four trips during the morning peak hour that's one entering trip three exiting trips during an evening peak hour you're going to see the converse you're going to see more traffic coming in so that's four trips entering two trips exiting so you have a total of six during that hour and over the course of 24 hours you have roughly 74 trips that's 37 in and 37 out uh what this translates to is one vehicle trip to the roadway Network every 10 minutes that is an imperceptible and negligible impact to the surrounding roadway Network um folks the attorney will have the ability excuse me the attorney will have the ability to ask and cross-examine and you will also have the ability to comment I I I know there is uh feelings about this application and disagreements about it you will have the opportunity to do so but we got we got to let people talk one at a time thank youate thank you um so as you've heard we are a permitted use in this Zone where there are many other uses that actually would be considered more intensive traffic generators so as part of our um engagement with the applicant we provided and prepared a trip generation comparison to some of those uses in the zone um considering you know all of the bulk standards that we have to adhere to maximum building coverage impervious coverage Etc and why don't we have that then marked as A4 sure going to zoom in just so you guys have a better view um so we can go down the list we have office medical office a vet Hospital a daycare funeral homes all of these types of uses while they are you know very simplistic do have a lot of turnover activity and what you and that is primarily what is different about a residential development where you generally have an influx of traffic leaving in the morning during commuter hours and the influx of traffic coming in during evening hours to come home um one of the most intensive uses that you'll see that is permitted in the zone is a fast food restaurant without drive-thru um that generates on par of 120 trips in a in a peak hour that's two vehicles every minute um lot more intense than a simple you know residential development that has four trips during a morning peak hour and six trips during an evening peak hour um from a traffic engineering perspective it's a significant benefit in terms of the opportunity to substantially reduce traffic that could other be otherwise be permitted on the site um I'll take you back to the site plan we can talk about the parking so like I said we are accessed uh to the parking area via full movement driveway along Larchmont Road uh the parking area is designed with a 24t drive AIS and 9 by8 parking stalls we are proposing 20 physical parking spaces 21 when you consider the EV credit um rsis has maximum parking standards of 21 so we comply in addition RS IRS also has as part of their requirements built in a ratio of 05 spaces per dwelling unit for visitation of guests so that's built into this requirement of 21 spaces obviously we adhere um in addition what our office did was we reviewed um the it parking generation which essentially tells us a demand for various you know uses within the manual itself um so for this one we obviously looked at a lowrise multif family family residential and for a building of 11 units it anticipates an average parking demand of 14 stalls so we'll have hopefully a surplus given what we've provided on the site plan um based on the review of the traffic in the parking the site is suitably designed to handle the site and traffic parking with negligible off-site impacts great thank you very much uh no further questions at this time Mr chairman questions questions from [Music] Mr chairman I have a qu a couple questions so the standards by which you uh calculated the trip generation I guess it doesn't make sense to me so I hope you can explain it to me if there are 11 units and even 50% of those units have people who go out to work each day that would generate more trips in the morning than than you estimate how does how does that jive so so it is looking at a single peak hour I would argue that um the commuting time frame is generally more than a peak hour I leave the house at the different time than my husband leaves the house so we don't necessarily coincide within the same peak hour but we are leaving during a commuting time frame so that's what the the trip generation is narrowing down it is the peak hour during that busiest time frame which is typically a 7 to9 time frame when people leave the house to go to work this is narrowing it down to to a single hour where you see the peak activity of four trips okay just to followup but even if everyone every one of the 11 units had someone leaving for work over a 2-hour Peak that would have to mean more than eight trips I'm just I'm just trying to understand how the data is generated from whatever standard is the The Benchmark so the the data is generated from actual study sites so it goes out and they have people compile traffic counts for these types of uses the empirical data comes back in and they give you an you know a weighted rate that's what this is based on so it's looking at real sites exactly like this one this is what we're seeing in terms of an average traffic uh projection on this type of use okay thank you you're welcome any other questions any other questions from the board just a couple questions um just to follow up with Mr cohan's questions so you you cited the word average yes and you basically it bases this on a myriad of uh real life examples um obviously an average is an average what what is basically that sample that it has taken from is that sampling based on characteristics of properties like this Within you know a certain geographical area um can you expand can you expand upon more about that well the it doesn't really break it down by demographic or geography it's the National Standard in the United States for trip generation so we don't get this minutia of detail in terms of what these sites look like we generally know their locations we know the time frame in which they were collected but it doesn't get into you know detailed characteristics about you know the adjacent roadway Network or the exposure volume and things of that nature that's not what's provided within the manual so we take this information and the the data points and the plots that were provided and we ascertain the best um rate that is given to us to determine this number and you say this uses the average basically yes okay um and there's no other kind of sta statistical indicator like a median or a mode or basically a fre like a you know what what is the highest frequency number that that would be utilized for this calculation no the it doesn't give us anything like that got it okay now uh you say that under peak hour you said morning can can you can you clarify do you mean 7 to 8 because I know you said 7 to n you said it's just an hour right it's just an hour yes um it doesn't necessarily it just says a peak hour between the hours of 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. so it's whenever those whenever that Peak 15 minutes happens in consecutive four intervals that's your peak hour okay um but it's not nailed down obviously because sight to sight it might be different it might be 7:15 to 8:15 another side might be 8 to 9 it doesn't really nail it down that way and and your calculations are these basically uh Universal regardless if it's a weekday or a weekend this is a weekday morning peak hour for the and then there's the weekday evening peak hour okay I have a question Stephen I have a question yes um so you you said this is National Data what what's the time frame for when this data was gathered like was it 20 all of 2022 was it a 4year period what's the time frame for this data it's a compilation of data collected over I would say the last 20 years 20 years I don't have the exact number on me in terms of the years that all these data points were collected but it's generally within the last 20 years uh any other questions from board members I have a question yes Mr Frank is there more traffic now or 20 years ago I was 10 years old stole 20 years ago so um so Les and um I'm not sure I can speak to traffic 20 years ago I get your point um what we're finding though with with traffic volumes in the state as in a postco world we are returning to a normalized and I would say normalized in terms of returning to work via mass transit but we also have the caveat of hybrid working remote working where people don't have to take a car to get anywhere anymore do you know if the covid years were included I don't believe that there's data from that recent that collected during covid otherwise they would have to um alert any of the users that the data might be a little bit skewed given the fact that we were in a pandemic any other questions from board members we will now go to we will now go to uh questions uh uh from the public uh Mr liberman do you have any questions yes thank you um if you could use that mic uh right there um I shall and we all promis to speak uh into the mic because I I did watch um the last uh uh proceeding and I could I could have used that tip myself so I was 57 10 years ago I just want everybody to know that reluctantly uh good good evening ma'am so you're relying on the it tonight that's what you're doing right yes and uh uh there's no state law that says it applies here right this is something that you're relying on for this report correct yes it's industry standard there's no ordinance that says that you it is the standard right that in this in Union that you're aware of are you not that I know did you review the ordinances did you get a chance to review any ordinances as they might relate to traffic in Union I I mostly review parking ordinances the parking ordinances and um so you're relying on it um and you say that it goes back how many years do you say it goes back roughly 20 when you say roughly do you know now this is the 11th Edition is that correct yes so what like for example what's the difference in terms of scope in terms of span between the say the 10th edition and the 11th Edition can you tell the board that please I'm not sure I understand the question well the 11th so the 11th Edition is a culmination correct it's a culmination of data going back you say approximately 10 years is that your testimony under oath 20 years is what I said okay and and you know that to be so you're sure that it's a 20e span under for the 11th Edition is that accurate I said roughly so yes I'm going to say roughly 20 years well when you say roughly what did you look at in order for you to gauge that it's roughly 20 years what data did you look at what where's that coming from the it manual okay so there's something in the it manual that tells you what it is what the span is yes what does it say I don't have that information on me um but it says years in which the data points are collected for each particular use that's listed in the manual was that did some of that include the pandemic not to my knowledge no so they so when you say to your knowledge do you know whether or not the 11th Edition which is the most recent one cut out data from the pandemic do you know that I don't believe data was collected during the pandemic and published for public use I believe that data was collected it's not published within this within this land use as far as I know my question specifically is I'm not talking about land use I'm talking about the it it stands for what international traffic something what is it it what is that Institute of Transportation Engineers all right I was close so the um did the it study uh to your knowledge um to your knowledge did it distinguish between um northern states and southern states states with warmer climate states with cold climates anything like that do you know yes they collect data across the entire country did it distinguish between rural States and urban States yes so this data here this is a culmination of data from rural States and urban States is that accurate correct so you'd agree age with me that the data might be different in a more urban area like New Jersey right sure in fact you understand New Jersey is one of the most densely populated states in the union do you know that right I do so you wouldn't expect that traffic data that's that's uh displayed or depicted for let's say Iowa would have the same uh uh exits and uh entrances or whatever I can't read you know my glasses are so big um as as it would thank you very much for whoever did that that was very would have the same number of enter and exit points as let's say Union New Jersey I wouldn't say that I would argue that Iowa doesn't have access to mass transit the way New Jersey does so they probably have more dependence on vehicles so it's probably higher trip generator than what we're looking at very good what percentage of the people in this proposed complex do you anticipate because this is a study that you're here as an expert on will take mass transit on a daily basis what's the percentage based on Census Data it's roughly 10% of people in this community that take mass transit so and do you and what what's the demographics of those who use M transit in terms of wage uh do they tend to be uniform do they tend to be medium wage do they tend to be high wage earners what does the Census Data indicate with regard to that that is not any information that I reviewed you know the census does take into account economic data you know that right yes but you don't know whether or not that statistic that you just provided changes depending on the socioeconomic uh analysis of the target class you don't know that I can't speak to that so I want to um go to uh do you have a you know under land use law if it's a planning application you know there's a case called Dunkin Donuts you've heard of the Dunkin Donuts case I take it yes yes okay and and so it limits what the board can look at for a planning board case in terms of TR but you understand that Ingress and egress and internal circulation are issues that can be discussed you understand that is that accurate yes okay you didn't testify at all about or very little about Ingress to this complex what does ingress look like in other words how is it that people are going to be coming into this what type of turn are they going to have to take and what type of traffic do you anticipate from a volume standpoint during a morning peak hour we anticipate one entering trip and during evening peak hour we anticipate for entering trips how that happens of defer to the site plan that's what I want to I want to know how it happens not the number we did the number already but thank you so this is a full movement driveway which means it facilitates left turns in left turns out right turns in and right turns out okay so the right turn in would be Mr libr microphone oh I forgot detach it and carry with you I think I did well up till now though I don't think I was too bad up till now and then if all right sorry about I was just trying to find oh I'll just wait I'm so sorry I hope you're not charging your client for tonight's testimony we go where do you how do you do that okay you okay I take technal aspects okay I sincerely apologize it's okay that's all right I'll let Steve pay for it you're fine I've never known the township to Grant an application where someone's destroyed their equipment but we'll see what happens all right just when you get it back on the map thank you let's talk about the let's talk about the entrance into the development uh they're coming in off of if they're making a right-and turn into the devel that one trip per hour that you're talking about if they're making a a a a rightand turn they're making a rightand turn off of what street if they're making a right turn right turn into the site they're coming from Morris Avenue okay so they're going to be coming from mors Avenue and you've driven on morrs Avenue I take it is that correct that is correct more than once yes would you consider it to be a busy street or a not well-traveled Street it's a busy roadway it's a busy roadway and so is there going to be any Comm ing that's proposed on that traffic is it going to be an entrance lane or any sort of cing that you're proposing in order for vehicles to make that rightand turn into this complex no okay and you don't think it's necessary from a professional standpoint is that accurate that is accurate what is it that you rely on when you determine that even though this is a very busy road any sort of calming or uh turning lane isn't required what what are you relying on in that analysis as it relates this particular development this development does not generate enough traffic to Warrant the installation of a turn lane either on Route 82 or along Larchmont Avenue to facilitate six peak hour trips I see unless somebody gets injured in which case that wouldn't have been a bad idea what is the analysis what is the thank you what is the analysis that you were in other words is there a technical standard here in Union that determines when a cing lane or turning lane is required I don't necessarily know that it's Union Township uh NJ doot has thresholds for when you need to install those types of lanes those are in state highways though NJ do regulates State highways doesn't it that's correct okay and this is a County Road isn't it no it's a state highway okay um and so what are the do standards to your knowledge that uh D dictate when a turning lane is advisable and when it's required um when it's required is when you have left turning traffic in this case if you're turning left from Route 82 on SOL archmont road if that if that turning volume exceeds and it's usually based on the amount of traffic on the highway itself it's usually between 100 and 200 peak hour trips they would they would standard would want you to install a left turn lane does that determine on the is that based also on the volume of traffic on the road in question so for example if this was a country Rural Road but with the same uh level of traffic would that be uh would that be required or or is it just the number of cars turning that determines whether it's required it's generally the number of cars that's turning so it's not dependent on how busy the host road is it's not at all factor is that what you're saying it's it's a blend of both if you're a rural roadway versus an urban roadway those thresholds will be different however because this is an urban section we're looking at maybe 100 to 200 turning Vehicles would warrant a left turn lane is that and and that's exactly what the code says it's exactly what you just quoted it is not necessarily stated that way but yes based on my experience with NJ doot that is what I know what I want to know is what it does the regulation State that's what I'm asking the regulation there's no regulation that tells you that you have to install a left turn lane or a right turn lane based on a certain volume this is Do's you know um what they're comfortable with on a certain segment of roadway do has published guidances on this haven't they no so you're telling me that there's no publish guidance at all from the New Jersey Department of Transportation that indicates when according to the dot cming Lanes or turning lanes are required that's your testimony I'm telling you that there's nothing within the New Jersey highway access management code that defines a threshold on a left turn or right turn lane um that that leftand turn would be Crossing uh Mars Avenue in order to get into the complex is that accurate do I have it right or is it the right hand turn that crosses I think it's the left hand turn that crosses right the left hand turn okay uhhuh and uh if I guess if you're right that there's one car an hour you don't expect queuing but uh is there going to be any any any um provision made for queuing in case you're wrong which is unlikely as it relates to this applicant no no queuing no place for queuing what's the speed limit on Morse Avenue 35 miles hour have you looked at the accident uh any accident reports in Mars Avenue in the last three years I have not um now in terms of the internal movements uh oh oh thank you thank you everybody thank you in terms of the internal movements does this come out can I use this if it comes great okay thank you in terms of the internal uh movements uh just just run us through that a little bit in other words the when the cars come in with Mars Avenue if you could use your pointer that yeah the whatever you call the cursor and show where the uh where the cars are coming in so this is generally the intersection Larchmont and Route 82 okay if you're making a left turn it's this motion if you're making a right turn it's this motion as you approach the driveway driveway will be on your right you make a right turn into the driveway if you're coming from this intersection and you're and and we're and show me the configuration those are the car stols right those are the parking stools that are inside the parking lot that are show me where the parking stools are please right here right right okay and how much width is there uh you know in other words what is that I can't tell what it is over can I you might I'm going to just come over here I'm going to show you something and if you can tell me what that yeah what is that this area right that's the building right that's part of the building that that part that sticks out right okay so what's thank you thank you and what's the width between the narrowest part there and the top of the stool how much room is that that's 24 ft it's 24t okay what happens if two cars if come somebody's coming in going out how much room do they have how much space do they have if two cars are go one going in one's going out 24 fet no I know I know they have 24 ft but how much of that space will be occupied by the vehicles if that movements occurring um I'd say car is approximately 8 feet wide so 8 plus 8 16 feet right so they have 16 feet they're given 24t and but and and the dumpsters aren't there now right they're outside is that correct you wouldn't know that that's not your deal that's fine you don't have to know that uh they are outside by the way but you don't have to know that um let's see okay um when you looked at the other uses to show how you know Wonderful this use is compared to what it could be can you go back to that chart please not that one that's the one I'm going to just walk a little closer here keep the mic in my hand because I can't do uh okay so the church for example you compared it to the church have you ever done work for a church before yes what's the the uh busy day for a church Sunday so you mean to tell me that Monday Tuesday Wednesday the numbers are the same for a church as they are on Sunday no that was not my testimony well where is it broken out because in other words what you have on this chart just to give you way by way of example is uh first of all it's 150 seats it's dependent on being 150 seats and then you have 11 peak hours uh uh 11 trips peak hour going in and 15 going out is that Sunday or Monday Tuesday which day is that those are weekday weekday morning peak hour weekday evening peak hour wow so you're telling me that an average Church you expect that much activity on a Monday I mean I'm Jewish but I just don't believe it I can't lie to you I know in my temple it don't work that way is that your testimony those are are the it projections for a church that has 50 seats okay now in terms of the uh so another one that used to for comparison to show how how good this one is was the fast food restaurant does every fast food restaurant serve breakfast to your knowledge I can't think of one that doesn't but I'm sure there are few that don't and obviously the what the hours that it's open tremendously affects those numbers doesn't it daycare center for a daycare center for an average daycare center you have 107 car movements 1007 really have you ever seen a daycare center with that much traffic you you've just asked her three questions ask one at a time she can ask that was the question have you ever seen a daycare Setter with 107 cars it going have you ever seen one yes and a medical office you've got 38 trips in the morning 38 trips huh all right I don't have any other questions for the witnesses thank you very much Mr h thank you thanks R thank you so much thank you okay I think you wanted to hear from our and before we get to our planner from our engineer and the exchange of The Correspondents with uh uh with Mr danavi so I'd like to recall Mark rmo all right Mr Ramos would would you raise your right hand is testimony about to give the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do okay Mr R credential wastim your licenses are still in full force and effect and credentials great thank you uh I know you testified uh extensively in at our our December hearing um I know that subsequent to that uh you sent a letter to uh Mr denave and U on January 21 202 five I know I the board or obviously you have a copy perhaps we'll mark this as A5 A5 and if you could briefly uh outline what you indicated to Mr Davi yeah so the letter to uh Vincent uh was in regard to uh item 4.5 in the review letter dated August 30th um in that letter item 4.5 he had indicated that the uh storms uh for the 2-year 10year 2550 and 100 actually increased after development So I responded to him in writing uh indicating uh that the summary on page four and the uh supporting calculations in appendix 4 of the storm War management report indicates that the post-development runoff will actually decrease after development so therefore it meets the uh the ordinance and he responded back and agreed with that through an email great and then I would I guess defer to your engineer the board you you have a copy of A5 can I I don't think I Happ do I is that nextra copy yeah I app I appreciate it thank you I have no further uh questions this time Mr Rama okay uh questions from the board well I know that M I believe sent an email back back and response to yeah so I had the opportunity to look at Mr Remo's letter and I did review the calculations uh that were provided in the storm water report I also had the opportunity to talk to Mr hatterer who did the original review and we both agreed that the uh the report indicated a reduction in the flow from the site not an increase uh questions from the board Mr Remo you're stuck with me with some questions um So based on your last testimony on December 16th you said that the Detention Center would basically have um the outflow pipe lead into an inlet on the intersection of LM and Morris correct that's correct okay and that storm sore ultimately drains to a Waterway right yeah I believe it it drains the Mars Avenue uh Storm sword then eventually goes into the rollway river which is a few hundred feet down the road yes yes now from that uh storm sore uh on that intersection of largemont and Morris does that go directly to the radway river or does it Traverse through other means to then ultimately hit the raway river I believe it goes to uh uh the storms sore on Morris Avenue that goes to the raway river doesn't directly go to the raway river okay ties into Mars Avenue um my next question would be that are there any other outflow pipes from other properties that feed into that storm sore the one on largemont Road largemont and Morris yeah uh well the one that we're tying into there's only one outlet pipe from there so the answer is no there's no other storm Sor tying into it okay and are there any other um sources of storm water that would ultimately go through that specific storm s on that intersection of largemont and Morris well any runoff that's coming down uh largemont Road uh I guess would eventually you know half the road would drain to that side and drain to that Inlet so coming from largemont road yeah okay um potentially any other from Morris Avenue or any other um areas of of that general area no nothing from Morris Avenue it's a little bit higher than Mars Avenue okay um on the December 16th hearing you state that you did not know the capacity of that storm sore it correct that's correct okay and as a result of that that capacity of that storm store is not factored in to the calculations that you put forth in storm water management report correct that's correct okay but but like I said in the storm waterer management report uh as outline we're actually reducing the flows so if there's not an issue with the storms now we're actually making the conditions better after development okay um now are from from your expert testimony um would you say that the raway river is vulnerable to flooding well I guess in certain areas it it you know in the past it has flooded but well I just want to just reference back to your report in which you made a conclusion on on I think it's item number sorry item number four proposed Detention Facility I think it's page two but leading to three and you say here the Detention Facility will have sufficient storage capacity and attenuate and convey the runoff without significant adverse impact on Downstream erosion and without adverse impact on flooding when you say without adverse impact on flooding um can you specify what you refer to are you referring to the flooding that occurs in rway River no I'm referring to that we're actually decreasing the runoff so we're not increasing any possibility for flood so that was just more of a a more general statement not specifically pointed to the Broadway River flooding right okay um now are you also aware if any of the properties within the 200 ft radius um actually let me take a step back are you I guess are you aware of the designation of flood zones by FEMA and so forth sure okay are you aware uh if any of the properties within the 200 uhet radius of the applicant's property is designated any type of female a flood zone I haven't actually looked at that 200t radius area but you know obviously there's a a flood zone associated with the rway river but it's not close to our site it's a I mean down Mars avue couple addresses that come to mind just basically is uh Northwest of that so would would you be able to verify if like addresses like 1049 Mount Vernon Road would be in a flood zone I'm not sure about that 1042 Mayfair Road I I don't know 2801 Morris Avenue I don't know those addresses as far as whether they're in the flood zone or not so I wouldn't be able to um 2815 Morris Avenue which is the Crossroads Church our you know our property is not in the flood zone we're much higher than the raway river right and and we're reducing the flow so we're not affecting the flood zone for those properties that you're mentioning but do you do you know if that prop just following up on my question I don't know I don't know any property that's in the flood zone I didn't look up those ad okay Mr denave would would you have any recollection if any of those properties are in flit zone I like the Crossroads Church for example yeah I'm I'm not familiar with those properties in particular okay I think with I I I would refer to basically when there's cross-examination or comments or calling of other witnesses that there's an opportunity to do so um so additionally to that um there are other properties that are adjacent to the raway river right um let's say for example Mount Vernon Road you have not checked if any of those properties are uh in a FEMA flood zone correct no I haven't checked Caroll Road I haven't checked any roads okay so that also just our own property is not inflexal so that also includes mayair Road as well yeah okay um now now that we establish the fact that storm water management report did not factor in the capacity of the uh storm store on Larchmont and Morris and the fact that as you say in your testimony that the raway river is just merely a couple hundred feet away from the applicant's property um could it be possible that the storm store can get over capacity in a 100-year store again I didn't analyze it so I would be just speculative if I said yes or no okay so you did not analyze that and that wasn't factored in as part of the calculations in the storm water management report no but like I said we're reducing the flow so if it's not at its capacity now it won't be after development okay so you you stay in your testimony that a sub Detention Center uh would basically collect the water and that outlow pipe would go into that storm store and essentially um would there be any scenario if that storm sore is over capacity and in addition to that the sub tension is overc capacity what happens to the water well if the storm sord was overc capacity then obviously it would overflow and drain down Mars Avenue into the rollway river but as you stated in your testimony that how runoffs tend to go is Northwest down towards largemont down largemont and potentially into Mount Vernon Road and whatever that's how the slage works correct yeah it drains towards the intersection of largemont and Mars Avenue well yeah what you say with the outle pipe what I'm saying is that in a situation where you have a a storm store that's over capacity and on top of that a sub detention center that is filled to capacity and you still have rainfall intensity happening that water would basically run off in a natural condition down the slope Northwest towards largemont Road well there's an overflow wear inside the outlet structure in the Detention Facility so if it was overc capacity the Detention Facility would overflow to Weir and then drain down through the conduit to uh Mars Avenue okay um I guess I also have a question with regards to how water is being collected and going into the sub Detention Center which is on the testimony provided last month on December 16th if I could recall the architect stated that there was not a confirmation yet on whether or not uh there would be roof drains installed or if the runoff would come basically run off the roof that's correct right because that's what he said I don't remember what he said but uh what we would normally do is tie the roof drains into the storm water Detention Facility okay directly so there's not an establishment methodology whether it's roof drains or running off the roof established and and basically does your storm water management report factor in any of those scenarios of how water would be collected into the sub detention system yes the RO all the total roof runoff and the total pavement area will be drained to the Detention Facility the roof drains will tie into the Detention Facility the parking lot under the building will drain to an inlet that's located in this in the uh parking area so let me ask you this how many roof drains have you factored into that calculation well we calculated the entire roof area so it doesn't really matter how many roof drains it's the entire area so the entire roof area will drain to the Detention Facility whether that's one pipe or three pipes it doesn't matter so you're saying that doesn't matter no it's all going to the Detention Facility let me pose a basic physics concept if I filled a balloon filled with water and I poke one hole in it water will come out that hole if I poke three more holes are you saying that basically the same rate of water and the same collection of water will still stay well the the roof drains will be sized according to how many roof drains you have if you have one roof drain obviously it's going to be a little bit bigger than having two roof drains so the roof drains will be tied into the Detention Facility but I Envision there's going to be more than one there probably be two one on each side but basically if you are going to increase the number of the the area in which water would flow to you would basically increase the volume that would be flowing through as well is isn't that just basic physics increase the volume of water volume water flow right going to one pipe you mean or if you have one pipe right right you have basically designation of the area if you have two pipes you double well let's just assume it's the same area regardless of how many pipes the entire roof area is going to the Detention Facility so whe you have one pipe or five pipes so you're just you're factoring in only the area of basically of uh of the roof you're not necessarily factoring basically the area of the pipes the diameter things of that nature or the quantity of pipes correct for the roof drains no it doesn't matter how many roof drains you have it's the same amount of water going to the Detention Facility all the water from the roof will go to the Detention Facility regardless if it's one or two one pip or two pipes or three pipes yes so you're saying that the rate the inflow rate is basically the same yes same amount of water will be going into the Detention Facility I just come back to my and it'll be monitored through the outlet structure through an orifice that will restrict the flow okay I I come back to the methodology in which you utilize this report which is the rational method which is basically a calculation of flow rate that equals to some kind of coefficient that's predetermined multiplied by the rainfall intensity which has its own calculation times area now I would think that if you're calculating rate right that you're determining the area just to be the area of the roof but you're not factoring the area um of collection uh through the through those pipes basically you it doesn't matter it's one pipe two pipes three pipes 50 pipes you're saying that regardless of the number of pipes no matter how extreme that the inflow rate would be the same yeah and would you say that that's the case regardless of a 100-year storm as well yeah it just be more volume if it's a 100-year storm the system is actually designed for 100e storm the Detention Facility okay um any questions any other questions from board members Mr chairman I just I just have one followup Mr rmo when you had did you go look look at that Basin at the intersection I know we had talked about you're going to put your eyes on that and take a peek at at that Basin I actually didn't go out there and and and look at it I I I think uh the applicant might have uh looked at it okay but I I did not look at the uh DNA all right my I I just didn't know what size pipe was leaving that base and it it didn't show on the plans yeah the surveyor I guess couldn't pick up the size for some reason um okay but it's probably a 15-inch pipe if I had to guess I mean all right I know there's some concern in the neighborhood that That Could That Could overflow and I I wanted to look at it to see if that pipe was was of any size uh it would be interesting to to see I mean if it did overflow um your testimony is that it would just flow down the street well it would flow down to mors Avenue if it overflowed right I mean our site is probably 8T higher than the inlet all right and you and you don't feel like if it if it were to se charge that that storm sewer would have sear charge that it would have any negative impact on the building like it it would push back into the parking lot and go into the building at all no we're much higher than that Inlet okay thank you any other questions from board members uh cross- examination thank you you're smiling I'm sorry was that I said you're were smiling I always smile good evening uh sir nice to see you again nice to see you too the um when you design storm water systems uh you either design it for Peak flow or you design it for volume right yeah it's a combination of both well the D gives you the option though right so this is not a d required system but when you're designing for d for example isn't it true that you have the option of Designing for flow or for or for volume they give you that option and you could decide which one you're going to designed for isn't that correct it's it's based on both volume and Peak discharges what thank you and and what is the uh and you indicated that the flow has been reduced out of the system is that correct that's correct uh the volume uh uh that hasn't been reduced though right just the flow well you do have some uh infiltration through the system because it is an open system right uh so it allows for infiltration into the groundwater what percent do what are the soils over there have you have you analyzed the soils yeah we did uh soil testing and what percentage of infiltration are you anticipating based on your design we didn't do calculations because it's not a major uh it's not considered a major project so you're not subject to infiltration requirements but again it's designed for infiltration it's not a major development so the DP regulations that would otherwise require infiltration don't apply in this case is that accurate yeah okay but you are are you trying to take credit for infiltration we didn't take any credit for it so it's actually designed assuming there's no infiltration but again it's an open system um they're like milk milk crates basically and it allows for it to seep into the ground as a professional engineer giving testimony today before this board you are not able to quantify the amount of water that's going to be that you can take credit for as a result of infiltration is that accurate yeah we didn't do infiltration CS now um the uh Inlet on Larchmont Avenue at that intersection of Larchmont and Mars how big is the drainage area that that particular Inlet surfaces well again now we didn't do a Capacity Analysis that would be one thing we would have to uh Encompass for that col okay so when when you said you didn't do an analysis what I thought you meant now I'm seeing I'm wrong was you didn't determine the condition of the inlet itself and how big or how the pipe was but you mean you didn't do anything in other words you didn't even determine the service area that that Inlet is addressing you didn't even do that did you we didn't do a Capacity Analysis of the existing storm and you understand that by that that every Inlet is designed for a certain amount of service area for storm water in other words every Inlet is so in other words you should be able to go on a map and say draw a circle and say this area here all the runoff from that area is serviced by that Inlet that's what you should be able to do in theory right yeah drainage area and you don't know how big that area is at all do you again we didn't analyze the existing storm sources and the size of the pipe uh is certainly good to determine whether or not that Inlet SE charges or not especially during 100-year storm correct well capacity is going to be based on the drainage area the slope of the pipe and the size of the pipe and so the answer actually is you have no idea because you did no analysis of the inlet you did no analysis of the surface area that the inlet uh anticipates and you are and and the amount of reduction in volume is not Quantified by you because you didn't take credit for infiltration so you can't answer that question today can you well I again I didn't analyze the existing storm Source system but I'm repeating myself saying we are reducing the runoff from the site so we're we're putting less water into that Inlet than was going before the flow rate but not the volume well again it we're reducing the peak flows but we're also infiltrating a certain amount into the ground through the Detention Facility and you don't know how much again we didn't do infiltration calculations it's not required but you're giving testimony about it and if you're going to give testimony about it you ask me about it otherwise I wouldn't be talking about infiltration doesn't it the the inlet on enlargement is a critical part of the system isn't it well it it yeah I mean we're tying into it so yeah it's a critical part of the system because the collection system that you're creating Through Your Storm water system in this apartment complex all has an outfall directed exclusively to this Inlet yes yes and so knowing whether or not that Inlet is going to be sized properly is knowing whether or not this is going to work or not isn't it well again if there's not an issue with flooding now there won't be an issue after development okay well I'll let the board determine if they find that to be credible thank you very much I have no other questions for you thank you thanks thank Mr R yeah I'd like to then uh recall Mr NIS good evening Mr chairman M NIS can you raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do Mr NIS uh obviously you're still uh credentials are still in full force and effect yes they are and again thank you for your testimony last time I know there was a question before the board at the last hearing as to whether or not your testimony and suggestions that you had to address the original comments from the fire department uh were approved by the fire department uh if you could please give an overview of what again of what you suggested and more importantly and I think the board has it and now uh opposition Council has it what the uh overview and response from the fire department is yes the fire department had a number of concerns and I went through each one of them and I offered suggestions at which time um we went back and forth as to what the benefits are and the Fire official um Orlando Guzman agreed with me specifically um the NFPA 13 sprinkler system where the building code would allow an NFPA 13r system I recommended and my client has agreed to go with a full NFPA 13 system which is a more robust system it includes sprinkler protection in inter cyal spaces uh and I explained at the last meeting why there's a benefit Additionally the sprinkler system will feature both a primary and an alternative feed for water uh including an FDC for the fire department to pump into and supplement the water supply to the sprinkler systems um so that's uh number one the second part of the sprinkler system is the fire department one of the ability to isolate uh an apartment or a unit if the sprinklers activated and they didn't want to have to shut down the entire building and we agreed that we will make sure that there are isolation valves so that if a sprinkler goes off in one unit we can isolate just that unit and leave the rest of the building fully protected with sprinkler protection there will also be standpipe connections um on each floor for use by the fire department we had agreed to that and that's something the fire department wanted um both the sprinklers and the fire alarm system will be connected to a constantly uh attended monitoring point so that if there is a flow from a sprinkler or if a detection device that is either a smoke detector or a carbon monoxide detector activates it will transmit an alarm to the constantly attended station and the fire department will be notified of that uh with respect to access to the roof uh Captain Gman agreed with me that the stairway in a fire rated there leading to the roof provides for safer access for firefighters and he agreed that that's uh the most rapid way that the firefighters could get to the roof if they needed to do that and this solution would replace the need for relocating overhead utility wiring or burying them underground um with respect to the fire department connection we mentioned that we would have one that's there to feed the sprinkler system and to the standpipe system the St the FDC could Supply both of those and it would have to be located within 100 ft of a hydrant that's in accordance with the building code and that's something else that he agreed with with respect to sprinkler protection uh in the covered parking area we agreed that there will be sprinklers under the building so that the parking area would have sprinkler protection as well and then his last question was about the trash and recycling bins and as you can see from the exhibit that was up previously shown the layout of the property those uh trash and recycling bins have been located outside from underneath the building and that's it the uh the one question that he wanted to make sure that is Captain Gman is that how can we be sure and I said that all of these items my client has agreed to have them contained within a resolution should the application be approved and that that would have the full force and weight of a requirement that they would have to do and that's the only outstanding thing is that once the resolution is approved all of those items will be included into the plan and a lot of these items such as the sprinklers the alarms and so forth would be building plans that would have to be submitted to the construction Department after the Project's approved and they can move forward with construction and I got that in writing in an email from Captain Gman this afternoon and that's the one exhibit uh Mr chairman that we we marked uh this evening so uh no further questions at this time Mr NIS thank you Jerry questions from the board sir what's the uh GPM for the sprinkler heads um well it depends on which which head and and what area the minimum head uh delivery has to be 7 gallons per minute however this is designed to have a total sorry this would be designed to have 0.1 gallons per minute over a design area of 1500 square F feet whereas if it was a 13r system you would only calculate for a maximum of four heads flowing bottom line is that this system would give a minimum of 150 gallons a minute whereas a 13r system you would only get um 1 52 gallons a minute Captain Guzman he approved not to have the uh overhead wiring removed correct he approved it Captain that's what his letter says okay thank you any other questions from board members uh Mr liberman would uh would you have questions yes I do thank good evening uh good evening sir nice to see you again thank you so your testimony was you were asked by a board member uh the fire chief says you don't have to move the wires again and you said that's what it says would you read the page where it says that please letter yep and this is his email back to me uh item number four roof access um about what we discussed and what I proposed and we discussed that A 2hour fire rated stairway offers for better protection for firefighters this solution will replace the need for relocating overhead utility wiring or burying it underground and in some Captain Guzman said once these points are incorporated into the plans or resolution we will be a position to move forward with the approval process so you know in the most recent uh review letter and they're not dated unfortunately Captain Guzman doesn't have a practice of dating his letters so I can't give you a date but in the in the one that I understand to be the most recent which I'm sure you saw Captain Guzman said in the second sentence ufd Union fire department is now losing access to all and all was in capitals sides of the building with the covered parking area that's planned um and he obviously was concerned about that did you share his concern that all sides of the building are no longer accessible to the fire department we discussed his concerns and he was satisfied that the sprinkler protection was a Superior Solution to making sure that the residents were safer now um as a Fire official for many many years with many with a lot of experience if if access is available to a structure that's on fire that's generally a good thing isn't it it all depends on for what purpose if your purpose is to evacuate people the answer is no let me explain an aerial device has a what's called tip load which is the maximum amount of weight that the ladder or aerial device can hold it could be 500 lb it could be 750 lb it could be as much as 1,000 PBS when you add the number of people that would be getting onto that you're talking approximately three people you have an aerial operator who's going to be in the bucket and you'll also have two residents that get in but once you go beyond the tip load you run the risk of the ladder collapsing the other thing that you have to take into account is the fact that in order to evacuate people using a bucket truck you have What's called the raise rotate and extend criteria which is 120 seconds that's how long it takes to raise rotate and extend the aerial device to get to a particular point and when you load it with people you then have to have another 120 seconds to bring that aerial device down offload the occupants that are in the bucket and then again come back up so it could take you upwards between four and 5 minutes in order to evacuate people and it's much quicker and safer to use the built-in fire protection of a rated fire staircase so along with the sprinkler system thank you so when I asked you that question your response was it's for I asked you would you be okay with that your response and I'm paraphrasing was if it's for the purpose of getting people out of the building no that's not that good right that's effectively what you just said that right I don't think that's what I said it's the when I asked you whether you would be comfortable with a building that has lost all access to quote all Ides with all in capital letters in terms of evacuating people it's not a big deal to you because it's not an efficient way of evacuating people correct if I could just you're referring to an old report that's now been replaced by what he issue today I understand that okay I understand that so you you um what your your answer was related to ex evacuating people and your effectively your testimony is it's not an efficient way to evacuate people is that a good way to put it I stand by my testimony that the better and safer way to evacuate people is using the built-in features and it's also the safer and better way for the fire department to fight a fire well that's what I was going to get to see you knew where I was going to fight a fire to fight a fire as a fireman you would like to have access you might not use the access but you would like to have access to all four or as many sides as you can get to a building in case you need it wouldn't you uh unfortunately the way you're praising the question doesn't really take advantage of my knowledge of how fire should be fought I teach this stuff throughout the country so I'll tell you right now because it's a sprinklered building you will fight the fire differently the fire department will hook into the fire department connection it will push water into the sprinkler system which is already attacking the fire anywhere from 2 to 4 fourheads will likely go off in an apartment unit and will knock down and control the fire it will drop the temperature in the building from the activation temperature to approximately 100 to 120° fah this is based on studies that have been done by the US fire Administration Underwriters Laboratories and Factory Mutual on the temperatures within a compartment that's on fire that's protected by sprinklers the one thing I do know a little bit about is how to fight fires in sprinkler buildings I wrote the training program is delivered worldwide okay and sprinkler systems work 100% of the time right in other words there's never a time they malfunction is that correct actually there is an occasion when it does when a building explodes and blows up I got to be honest with you the chances are the sprinklers will not work properly when however I'm sorry when there's a wood aain break they don't work either isn't that correct that's not necessarily true either where you have to you have to fire upon lays in and they can supply it from an alternative source which is why you have hydrants located in different areas that they can lay in and supplement that system even if there is a water main break however getting back to your question about the efficacy of sprinklers I conducted a study on sprinkler protection and my study although I will have to admit it was 20 years ago found that in 97% of the cases automatic sprinkler protection either controlled or extinguished 97% of the fires okay and um the how often do sprinkler heads have to be replaced uh once every 50 years if it's a standard sprinkler if it's a certain type of sprinkler that goes into a cold storage area it's every 10 years but they break too sometimes don't they not just as a matter of regular maintenance which is every 50 years but they break sometimes don't they only if they're subjected to Mechanical damage or abuse or freeing they get hit by a ladder please would you let them ask the question let them answer or if they get hit by a ladder right let them ask your question that would be mechanical damage right um and the efficacy or efficiency of a spr sprinkler system is somewhat dependent on the willingness of the property owner to properly maintain that system right it's required by code no I know but a lot of things are required by code but everybody doesn't do it all the time right um I would have to say that based on my experience with sprinkler protection it's one of if not one of the most reliable Mechanical Devices that's ever been invented so your testimony before this board is that if you were told that there's a building that's being proposed and the fire department is going to have no access to any sides of the building you'd be okay with it if it's sprinkled with all due respect that's not correct they will have access it's how they choose to fight the fire and it's safer and better for them to use the interior fire rated stair Towers to get up to higher levels than to try and climb up an aerial ladder or to even use ground ladders to go in through a window the roads around uh this complex uh are they lightly travel roads what what do you know about them I have no idea I'm looking at it from a building perspective you think it's a good idea to put the fire equipment on mors Avenue if necessary to fight the fire to put the what fire trucks and other equipment on mors Avenue to fight the fire actually that's a decision that's made by The Incident Commander based on the circumstance and facts that he's faced with at the time of the fire depends on where the fire is is it on the ground floor is it under the building is it on the second floor or the third floor or is it on the roof is it in the front is it in the back all of those are items that are taken up during what's called size up a fire officer The Incident Commander would look at the circumstances and make the decision that he feels is best for him to fight that fire and safest for his firefighters when the fire chief stated in the most recent memo not the one we just got today hours ago but the most recent memo call the most recent memo we got today is most we all know what I'm talking about we all know exactly what I'm talking about when when when that memo went out and he said ufd is now losing access to all sides of the building with the covered parking area did you agree with his assessment that the fire dep Department was losing access to wol W four sides of the building did you agree with him those those were his words not mine that's a discussion point that we had and I pointed out the things that I felt would make the situation better that my client was willing to pay for such as improving and enhancing a more robust sprinkler system and also making sure that the sprinklers and alarm system communicated with a constantly uh attended station so with all four sides no longer being accessible to the fire trucks where are they going to park when this place is on fire they would probably Park on the street I see they would park on the street and you don't know how busy mors Avenue is at all do you no I see I bet you the board knows all right thank you very much I have no questions for you no further thank you for your C I just have one followup question certain um in terms of you say it's it's basically the the discretion of the officer in terms of where they would plant their their fire trucks if there was a fire that that that occurs on the property right M if you were that officer how would you approach that as I'm coming up to the scene I would be looking at the building I would be looking for key indicators where's the smoke coming from where is there uh fire showing if it's showing or not are there people outside is there anybody there that can give me information what information can I get from the alarm transmitter they might be able to tell me it's a sprinkler on the below building on the first second or third floor they could tell me uh ideally what apartment it's coming from so all of those factors you take into account when you're determining where do I want the fire trucks to set up and where do I want the firefighters to go to depends on the circumstances that we're getting somebody who reports that I have h a pot that is smoking in my apartment is a lot different than me saying I have my bedroom on fire it would cause a fire officer and a crew to take different actions and basically different actions on where where that fire truck would be placed whether it's on Morris or whether it's on largon or whatever yep got it okay uh Mr no further questions on my end thank you you think we take a break like minutes something uh time good it's 8:30 I think we we did a Break um last time at 8:30 as well you're good thank you very much Mr chair M we will recess for 5 minutes is that fine for folks to go to the bathroom all right thank you e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay uh all right we are back from Recess um thank you for everyone's time we are going to continue the hearing um Mr hail you only have one witness left which is the plan right correct yes ready to proceed yes okay I'd like to call upon John teina our professional planner sir can you sp state your name and spell your last name for the record please my name is John tyina T is in Thomas a i k is in Kelly i n is in Nicholas a raise your right hand do you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you okay and Mr tatina as with the previous uh Witnesses if you could please give the board the public and the board professionals the benefit of your work educational experience area of expertise licenses you hold and whether you've been approved as a professional planner before other boards or courts of the state of New Jersey thank you hi I'm John taen I'm the principal of all things planning and velopment in South Brunswick and Belmore New Jersey I'm a licensed planner in the state of New Jersey have been since I completed my studies at Ruckers University in 1992 I've spent the majority of my 32-year career doing this testifying on behalf of applicants throughout the state of New Jersey I've appeared before more than 150 planning and zoning boards throughout the state including this one it's nice to be back board stipulates thank you very much Mr chairman all right Mr tatina uh you're well familiar with this project now you here at uh the previous hearings and if you could please provide an overview of the relief and we know there's only uh one pre-existing lot width variants associated with the application but if you could please provide the overview of the project and from a planning St standpoint justification for any relief certainly uh so um the applicants proposing a three story 11 unit uh multif family building as permitted in your NC District um it provides for three one-bedroom units and 8 two-bedroom units uh with 20 parking spaces in full conformance again with all of your ordinance standards um we uh the property is located at the corner of Larchmont Road and Morris Avenue uh it contain currently contains a single family home that is to be demolished uh surrounding land uses include office and a church to the West uh one and two family residential uh to the uh North and to the East and Commercial and and apartment uses across the street uh on Morris Avenue um as you know the neighborhood uh neighborhood core District provides for a wide variety of uses of which multif family residential is one um Miss kersha did a wonderful job of talking about some of the other uses uh that are provided within the district all of which are somewhat uh more intense in use uh that our proposed multif family residential project is um we uh we do require um one uh variance in this instance uh it is for minimum lot width uh the requirement is for 150 ft we have 140 ft um this is an existing condition uh on the site that cannot be cured uh this uh will be a um a C1 variance uh for the board this is a unique property condition that affects uh this property and this property only uh is a unique condition that is related to the uh SI literally to the size and shape of the property in every other way the uh property is conforming with your District standards and the uh di Minimus uh 10- foot um dimition in the amount of required width uh has virtually no imp act on on the project otherwise it complies with all the other standards in terms of setback uh coverage height um and all the others parking and all the other standards it will not be discernible uh to the eye um you wouldn't again it's existed this way uh for many many years and again uh facing Morris Avenue we have more than 167 ft of width so uh again it's uh how the ordinance defines Corner Lots uh where the lot width is measured along the narrower front AG as opposed to The Wider one um again the standard is a C1 or C2 variants C1 is literally a hardship we literally can't get any more land uh the people at the single family house next door are using it um so uh you could also considered under a C2 variance um but again I think the C1 criteria is most appropriate here um and uh again we it's a hardship we we only have 140 ft we can't get 150 in terms of uh the standards uh once that hardship is established we still have to talk about our negative criteria that will not impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan or or the zoning ordinance and we will not have a substantial detriment to the public good um in terms of uh the positive criteria the project does provide some benefits it provides more multif family housing in the Township in an area that is suitable for this type of development it provides a transitional use between what is predominantly a single family residential Zone to the north and um the neighborhood commercial District long along Morris Avenue it provides multif family residential apartment within walking distance of uh Joe Collins Park batt Hill Elementary School Church as well as Lo local neighborhood businesses including Medical Offices Banks uh dance studios convenience stores and pharmacies um we think the site design uh is safe and efficient as testified by Miss Koff uh and Mr Remo uh we think it's a it provides an aesthetically pleasing development that is compatible to the surrounding neighborhood aesthetic on Morris Avenue and provides curb appeal along that street um we provide a development that meets the required parking demand and as uh Miss kof testified um the uh expected parking demand uh using it as well as the recent Rucker study uh is will be on the order of about 14 cars we're providing for uh 20 uh parking spaces and finally it's providing use that is less intense than many of the other permitted uses on his own on a site that can easily accommodate the associated traffic such uses such as restaurants brew pubs retail that would have larger parking demand provide and produce more in andout traffic on the adjacent roadway uh the proposed building is set back from Larchmont Road Morris Avenue with Landscaping proposed along both frontages as well as Landscaping proposed along the two residential boundaries to the north and to the east in terms of purposes of Municipal land use La uh that we are going to advance I'd submit to you there are several purpose e to promoted the establishment of appropriate population densities and concentrations that will contribute to the well-being of persons neighborhoods communities regions and preservation of the environment uh this is a compliant uh project in terms of density it is providing the exact density that the planning board and the governing body set forth in the neighborhood core District um purpose G to provide for sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of agricultural residential recreational commercial and Industrial uses in open space both public and private according to their respective environmental requirements in order to meet the needs of the Jersey citizens um we think this is an appropriate location as uh does the governing body and planning board because you put in your master plan and you put in your in your zoning ordinance to provide for it um the applicant proposes multif family use that can easily be accommodated uh on the site um and again we think it's going to be a nice transition between the commercial development on Morris Avenue and the residential uh properties behind and then finally to promote a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design and Arrangement the applicant is proposing building design that is aesthetically pleasing and Landscaping that along both frontages that will further enhance curb appeal and provide appropriate buffers to our residential neighborhood neighbors to the north and to the east um in addition uh to being consistent with the ml the proposed uh development is consistent with the neighborhood core that was proposed in the township master plan the applicant proposes a development that is consistent with the character of the neighborhood core with a concentrated mix of development types clustered outside of the downtown area um the development pattern is less dense than the downtown with greater flexibility including building setbacks but still dense enough not to discourage P pedestrian traffic sidewalks are safe and functional and shaded and shaded with Street trees structures are limited in height not more than two or three stories on larger Lots buildings are set back far from the road with ample parking located uh in front or on the side of principal structures um the applicant is proposing a development that further promotes the goals found in the master plan goal one to maintain the character of existing residential neighborhoods while providing opportunities for housing types that meet the interest and needs of of all ages and abilities um to recognize viability and need for alternatives to detach single family homes uh to prevent incompatible non-residential uses from locating on residential streets or in residential areas that would generate adverse impacts to traffic noise safety and infrastructure and seamlessly integrate a more diverse housing stock into this community um also we're advancing goal four to provide adequate parking to serve established residential and Commercial areas um in terms of our negative criteria um the first prong is will not present a substantial detriment of public good again this is um the standard again this really talks about how what impacts we're having on our neighbors situated in a way that set back further from larchmount Road mortus Avenue so it's to not encroach on the roadway and provide parking and circulation throughout the site it's situated in a manner that's consistent with surrounding buildings we provide for conforming setbacks and significant L Landscaping especially to our neighbors uh to the north and to the east um the lot withd relief is di Minimus it's a technicality and would comply if if we we could measure on Morris Avenue the site does not appear too small nor wide enough when compared to surrounding properties finally in terms of um this second standard is and we're not impairing the intent purpose of the Zone plan and the master plan again um we are implementing your Zone plan and your master plan providing for neighbor core uses in full compliance with the bulk standards there in except for our existing condition I condition that we can't we can't cure uh the variance relief does not impair the intent and purpose of the Zone ordinance uh the neighborhood cores a mix of of retail service and residential uses along the neighborhood Carters of Union Township um additionally we provided for um really the challenge was on me because our expert Witnesses uh were quite frankly uh phenomenal um Mr Remo provided extensive testimony on the uh on the site on the Landscaping and on the storm water management to show that there would be no detrimental impact to our neighbors and Mr Lee I want to um I want to uh point out for you you you had mentioned um about water being able to come out of the um inlet at the intersection and potentially flow to Mount Vernon Road which would be behind us I I would note and I don't know if you looked at sheet five of of the drainage plan I know you studied them very closely ly but the inlet in the inlet is down at this gentleman is not an engineer's a and getting engineer I'm thank you I'm answering I'm answering a question from from the chair I allow it and it obviously reserves the board and as well as you to also cross-examine and um again that that Inlet is a full six feet below the crest of the hill on Larchmont so again our entire site as shown on sheet 5 uh slopes down uh from our northernmost boundary uh to Morris Avenue so our highest point is actually at the top of Larchmont so any water leaving our site is going to go downhill down Larchmont and two Morris Avenue it it can it cannot go up Larchmont and into the neighborhood that is higher than uh the street is higher at that point than it is as you cross our site um so I just wanted to point out that again uh how the site is designed where where the connection point is all that is making sure that from a negative criteria standpoint we are not having having negative impact on our surrounding neighbors likewise our drainage uh our drainage pattern on the inside of the site likewise drains into our site none of our water is is leaving us uh to our surrounding neighbors so again from a negative criteria stem standpoint making sure that we do not have any negative impact on our surrounding neighbors um in terms of traffic um Miss kersha did an outstanding job again uh showing we're not going to have a negative impact on our neighbors um that the Minimus traffic that would exist um could uh could safely and efficiently access Larchmont Road and move down to Morris Avenue um and that we would be significantly less impact in terms of of traffic than many of the other permitted uses uh within the um within the district and then finally Mr NIS uh did a wonderful job uh from a fire standpoint of showing that uh the project will be safely and efficiently uh operated in terms of in a way that will make sure that we protect U both our residents and any First Responders so uh for these reasons I believe the board has the ability to Grant this uh di Minimus relief that we seek and uh and and actually as a fully conforming permitted use um would be appropriate to Grant the an approval of the preliminari final site plan that is requested and I'm available for your questions thank you Mr Tak no further questions at this time Mr chairman thank you um I do have a question um since you are referencing the the site plan here where does water go um where does water go to ultimately get collected into the sub detention system it flows into the parking lot and then and then there are inlets within the parking lot that are indicated by the black squares um along the along the northly curve line goes into the subsurface detention system as Mr Remo testified there will also be additional Connections in terms of the roof drainage uh coming down and uh and connecting directly into that system that'll uh be accommodated during final architectural design BAS based on the slope of the roof and and those capacities um and again all of that is at a lower elevation than the high point of Larchmont road which is further to the north so those two um for a lack of better word um like fil Dark boxes is what you're referencing to in terms of where water would go to that would lead to the sub detention system yes okay so under a circumstance if the um storm s on large and Morris is over capacity and in a in a circumstance as well if the sub detention system uh is at Max Capacity but there's still rainfall intensity so you're saying that water can't just simply seep up those those inflow pipes it could but even if it did it would seep up it would fill our I mean we'd be talking a storm that has never existed but you you'd be you would have a you would have a uh it would be in the parking lot and then when the 6 in of the parking lot it would over it would over top the curb it would flow down the driveway down Larchmont Avenue and down Morris Avenue it is not flowing back into the neighborhood if you look at the uh if you look at the at the uh manhole at the top of the hill that Rim is at 96 A2 our driveway is at 95 and the um and uh Morris renue is down at uh at 93 so again all the water any water from this site is going downhill onto Morris Avenue and not back into uh not back into the neighborhood follow question to that um page one on the introduction of the storm water management report it says here the Topography of the site moderately sloped generally in a northwesterly direction towards large Mountain Road are you saying that is now incorrect no it does slope moderately towards Larchmont road but we first of all we are moderate we are what's the word I'm looking for uh changing I'll use get away from an M we're changing the slopes and the grades on the site so that um so that any water and any grading on the site will flow will not will flow towards Larchmont road but more directed in a in a southwesterly manner than the northwesterly manner so for the egress um basically as you're turning into the property and going into the parking lot uh for a lack of better word that that driveway what's the orientation of that driveway what it's you drive uphill it's at 95 at the at this curb it's 96 a little bit in it's 97 a little bit more and the parking lot is at elevation 98 so you drive up a gentle slope to get into it and and it's and it's uniform basically let's say the point in which actually it says right here is so you have TC 97.8 4 and then you have on the bottom that TC 97.72 it's not this kind of weird um slant or angle right correct okay all right those are my questions it's very welld designed uh any other questions from the board Mr chairman mran um so you testified regarding um the suitability of the housing or adding diversity of the housing units yes uh is is there a market for 700 foot units I mean that seems incredibly small to me yes really huge okay I I just as I said in the last hearing I've stayed in hotel rooms that are larger than that and it just seems like a very small living space for somebody to live in permanently it is um it is appropriate for people that will make they'll make their individual housing choices based on their needs some people wish to live in a larger unit some people wish to live in a smaller unit thank you oh actually one follow um are there any affordable units in this building planned in this building no we are we will comply with the Township's ordinance related to Affordable hous thank you any other questions from the board hearing none cross examination thank good evening sir um are you an engineer no I'm a planner well I wasn't sure um let me ask you this um have you ever designed a stormwood system designed them no supervised the design of them yes built them yes installed them operated them all those things so as a planner you design you supervise the installation of a storm water system yes I see I have a 32-year career throughout New Jersey um and uh I've supervised uh the development of millions of square feet of uh Warehouse buildings of thousands of units of multif family residential housing new basically New Towns um and major retail facilities I spent the middle 17 years of my career working for two major developers in the state of New Jersey where I was fully responsible for every aspect of uh development uh from the uh Inception until its final occupancy Leasing and sale um so yes I have uh I I have supervised every aspect of that but you've never held yourself out to be a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey nor do you today is that correct and um the uh Larchmont Avenue um with with you know where the inlet is that everybody's been talking about you I do and you've seen the inlet you went over and you saw it and the road goes up gradient right from that point matter fact both roads go up gradient right Larchmont goes up gradient and mors goes up gradient from there isn't that correct yes so the that Inlet is going to be seeing water from much of the upgrading area on both streets but the engineer who testified can't quantify the amount because he didn't do a study correct I believe it will seea water from LaRon I do not believe given its location uh kind of on the Northern side of the of the curb radi uh the the radius return into archmont I don't think it's going to see much water from the gutter on Morris Avenue I think that'll just continue to flow down the gutter okay and uh but you're not an engineer and you don't report to be one and you didn't do an an analysis of the area the St area that will be serviced by that Inlet either nor did the engineer correct I only walked the site and understood what is uphill and what is downhill and the last time I looked water still flowed downhill now the um you indicated that only one variance was required and it's the admittedly minor one between the 140 and the 150 for that I and that's the C1 variance and you you also gave testimon in C2 but you think it's a C1 and I agree with you to be honest with you it is that's the only time you're going to hear me say that tonight by the way I want know but that was it but I I have a question for you did you look at the drawings on the on the um on the roof have you have you looked at the drawings from the architectural drawings on the roof yes okay and and what is the the limit under the zoning ordinance for the roof how high can it be 35 ft okay and if you look at the drawing the drawing depicts it as what do you know 35 ft it depicts it as 34 and half 34.5 isn't that correct okay well am I right or wrong yes you're right okay so it's not so it doesn't depict that is 35 ft it depicts it is 34t 5 in now on top of that uh roof do you know whether or not the building code requires any installation the building code requires any insulation yes it does a lot of insulation and and how thick is the insulation that's required on top of that uh roof it depends on what the r value is chosen for the building and it depends on the do you it depends do you well what are the numbers that you've seen in your career I have seen anywhere from 5 in to 12 in on a building of this nature okay and would typically be accommodated within that roof structure and do you know whether well this installation would actually lie on top of the structure isn't that correct no you're telling me it would not be on top of the structure it typically that you'll have a membrane roof that has modest uh insulating properties and then the uh significant r value uh insulation would be within the structure of the building now there is a line uh the the roof measurement is it perfectly horizontal or is it on a slight slant do you know the roof measurement yes it it's the measurements to the top of the roof and yes the the roof on top will slope so again water flows downhill how and has anybody shown you to date from the beginning of the time that you were started working on this project until this moment has anybody shown you a completed roof that uh takes into account um actually how much is going to be required right let let me back up a little bit there is a slope on this roof isn't that correct yes there will be and when I asked the engineer how certain he was now when I gu the architect how certain he was that this was going to be under 35 ft his testimony was that he didn't actually Speck it out but he was assure that he could accommodate that were you there for that testimony yes okay have you seen any drawings that show that this is not going to exceed the 6 in wait did I do my math right five the seven in or whatever six or seven in seven I can't that between what is shown here and and what the peak of the slope is going to be so that it's going to be under 35 uh feet has that have you seen a drawing that depicts that no the drawing I've seen is shown on the screen so you say that a height variance isn't required but in your review of everything you haven't seen a drawing that actually shows the actual height of the finished roof have you I've seen height of a roof at 34 34 feet 5 in I see and the the architect will be required to provide a drawing that has a roof of 34 Fe 5 in and if he doesn't do that then we'll return or we'll get an administrative approval at less than 35 ft we are clearly not seeking a height variance and the group will comply with the height restrictions I want to know whether there's a drawing that depicts that generated there's there is an exhibit right here that shows the height of the roof okay I don't have any other questions for you thank you sir thank you Bo just uh for hey Mr H I know um uh basically U thank you for your testimony thank you John just for a brief administrative pause I'm going to call the representative for the 1939 box Hall row Mr scolnick thank you chair approach the mic I'm a known loud talker but I'll happy to come to the mic chairman we're going to request an adjournment it doesn't look like you're going to reach us tonight so if you would make the usual announcement there'll be no further notice yeah um so there was another application going to be heard tonight but we think that the rest of the hour is going to be dedicated to getting watching developers to a conclusion so with that um can I get a motion to adjourn application 20241 1939 Vox Hall Road to the next meeting without notice so move moved by Mr Cohan is there a second seconded by Mrs Khan uh roll call please Mr Alexander yes Mr Cohan yes Mr fr yes Mr Miller yes M Perkins uh uh mayor Bowser yes committee woman Terell yes Miss Khan yes Miss Colin yes chairman Le yes okay thank you chairman we'll see you next month and thank you for understanding all right now we're back to our regular schedule programming Mr hail yes thank you Mr chairman at this time we have no further Witnesses uh obviously all of our witnesses that have testified so far are here this evening if the board or the public had further questions but uh at this time no further Witnesses all right so where we're going to proceed now is that uh I'm going to call Mr liberman up um Mr liberman uh is at your discretion if you want to call uh any members of the civic association as Witnesses or we can progress to public comments in which in public comments they they're they're still able to speak they're still able to show whatever they need to show anything for the record um it's just two admin it's just two kind of like administratively different concepts of calling someone as a witness or opening up to public comments and letting someone the mic but they're subject to cross- examination in either capacity so public oh not in public comment not in public comment I see fine so I I would suggest that we leave we go to public comment then okay okay all right so with with that in mind um how we're going to go is we're going to go into public comments which basically reserves the any member of the public to come up to the mic um and provide their opinions on on this application um I will just note for the record is that we go up until 10 o' so what I would say is um consider that uh especially if you would want the board to come to a conclusion before 10:00 with a formal action um after comments from the public we will allow Mr hail to make concluding remarks we will allow Mr Lieberman to make concluding remarks and then ultimately the board if board members have comments and then we would ultimately go to a vote on the application uh just want to lay out all the parameters there um so with that uh we will now proceed public comments um and we'll you'll just need to identify yourself for the oh yes of course um Eric O's 1083 Mayfair Road Union okay I want to plug in my laptop um I have a number of exhibits I like to just show and if I may um yeah could could I have another gentleman join me one of the um Association members yeah sure okay because it's his properties that I'm I'm illustrating yeah Mr chairman they any people speaking would need to be sworn y sir can you uh and any exhibits then have to be provided to us can can you spell your last name for the record uh that's o w Mr Mr O uh would you raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth TR yes sir thank you okay um what I'm about to show is this Mar that please as 01 01 for us this exhibit um yes yeah please join me okay um this gentleman uh is at this property then I'm about to show this brief video and I'm going to start from the beginning uh I'd like to say one thing my name is Tony baruchi I reside at 1044 Mount Vernon Road can we can we have a tour in as well can you spell your last name for the record uh B like uh boy a r like Robert a Double T like Tony you double C like Charlie I Mr baruchi would you raise your right hand SAR the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you before I get into that listening to the prior testimonies um when uh talking about the traffic it was never mentioned that Larchmont road is a cut through between car between um Morris Avenue in order to avoid the light on Liberty it's a cut through so the traffic the 37 entries and exits out of that building and probably another hundred entries and exits uh going onto Larchmont especially at peak hours uh in the mornings I can't even go left I have to make a right in order to go down Spruce then I go straight to Spruce out to Morris Avenue and that's how I'm able to access Morris Avenue you can't even make a left there so any more traffic would just add to that okay that's that's the traffic issue thank you thank you much um right now what I'm going to show is um uh storm water Bigg area of contention here um right now this is a video of this gentleman's property right here and this is the Crossroads church across the street and if I'm going to see notice how all the flooding is happening right in front of his house and let me just pause right there this is the localized Flooding at the church is upwards of I would say approximately 6 in of water more than that and that's that's for my front porch I'm I'm I'm approximating so I'm just trying to be but you live there so you can attest to more um where you you see my cursor is circled right there that is the house that is being rented out by watchong and this is the proposed site um I have a diagram also that shows it's approximately 300 feet linear feet from this side this area of flooding so what you're doing right now is you have currently s area Earth and all everything is being seeped in it's pretty much being retained on site any impervious coverage roof area uh Paving asphalt so on and so forth is going to be adding to the tributary volume of water in the system it's all one well I don't have the engineering drawing in front of me but I've studied it enough um this one system it's one uh sewer system it's going into the um that's going in so um let me just continue the video I also have a few other exhibits um this property is not in a high-risk flood zone it's in the flood zone I pulled the FEMA Maps last night for 2023 it is in the flood zone X okay which is not a high-risk flood zone but the Crossroads Church is in the flood zone AE one of the higher flood zones and that's a high risk um I don't know are you in the flood zone oh yeah there this gentlem is in the flood zone6 yep and so these are some of the issues that the tenants are dealing with and if I may I want to pull up another exhibit [Music] um oh this is a good one I like this one okay so that's the H I'm G grab this real quick okay is okay oh right uh what happened oh okay sorry about that2 okay this this is O2 um the property right here says propose site and this is all approximat again it's not the scale because a photograph of Google Maps but it's showing the proximity of this gentleman's property right here where you saw that localized flooding that's approximately 200 ft um some of the other flooding on other the areas that's um 1096 M uh Mount veret terce that's felich I believe and he's in the flood zone there's a number of other properties that are definitely within the flood zone as well as Carol Road that Inlet right here feeds into the raway river so all the storm flow from this site is going into the sewer and into the river so it's adding to the tributary volume of water over the entire system right and what happens is if you've been to that site if you looked along the river you could see the storm pipe going into the river what happens as the river Rises it it covers the storm pipe actually gets covered so the water going out into the river has nowhere to go because there's a wall of water there that's why uh where our house is we have a storm sewer there right there on the corner and there's two others that come down Wang road but when the river gets full which doesn't take long it cuts it's like almost like stops water from flowing into the river it doesn't flow anymore it's it's a wall of water this is the FEMA map oh I'm sorry this is the FEMA map from 2023 from the United States national3 this is 03 03 pardon 20 2020 2023 and this is 03 exhibit um from the national geodetic which issues the FEMA Maps it's the firm the flood insurance rate maps that here we go again the red area is the site and again that's flood zone X which is a lowrisk Zone however the beige that you see there is a high risk High flood zone I believe it's AE as well as the Green area is AE hold on one second yes I'm sorry so Zone AE as Illustrated right here where there are properties is a high-risk flood zone and that's the river essentially the raway river the portions of the raway river so these are the realities I mean calcul storm calculations are storm calculations but these are the realities that the tenants are living in and um so that's that exhibit um the next next witness want to come up uh do you have I have one more one more thing go back to that picture again that the the Fe map the one no the um the one with the church for my front porch oh the video yeah uh okay what's more what's more disheartening than anything is if you look at this uh move it as it goes over okay stop it at the barricades that the DPW puts up a little more okay right there no not there right there how's that if you could see if you look further down the road there's barricades there okay there's also one before my driveway so during times of storm like this I can't even get out of my driveway I'm blocked in uh residents that come down that street they have to turn around and go back because there's barricades up that the DPW put up even before there's the storm cuz they know and how often would you say that happens four or five times a year six times a year very often okay maybe more than that everybody one person at the time right right more so in in in the spring and the summer when there's more rain than in the fall uh I can't that's I got to I'm going to say probably a few years back I don't know exactly no I don't and it's only getting worse yeah and there's other pictures I mean there's times where the water's gotten so deep I actually have ducks in that we call it a pond I'm known for Lake Lakefront proper they are yeah there's the Ducks so I have neighbors they come and they Roost there from time to time you know I mean when when then when the when the water subsides and and it all is gone then one of the residents either it's me or someone else have to move the barricades because they leave the barricades up we take the barricades we kick them to the side sometimes they lay there sometimes DPW picks them up you know a week or two later sometimes the next day it's it's depends on their schedule okay thanks that's it thank you appreciate any um just just um I know we were trying to get a date for 01 um I think sometimes when you take images or videos from I assume this is like from an iPhone or or sell phone I didn't take them but uh yeah yeah pH your phone yeah can you go back to the file uh not to show how much of a nerd I am but maybe on the file it'll tell you when it there might be metad so right click on the file click on uh oh I'm sorry pardon me I yeah I all right I know what you want to do um hold on click yeah right click on the file the phone you want to okay oh on the phone okay yeah and then click on properties and it it could show when actually this was taken yeah um properties talking about nerds I'm sorry I can't do this either um properties proper properties oh right there okay um the date was 2020 well that's today's date that I downloaded 2024 created August August 22nd 2024 2024 could be I think one last thing yeah so you know when we talk about water flowing uphill flowing downhill the water from this from this project is going into the into the rway river so it doesn't matter how it gets into the raway river the quicker the raway river Rises is the more flooding that we have on Mount Vernon Road okay thank you appreciate it um Chris come come step up to the other one hi hi if you could state your name for the record and we'll need to SAR you win okay it's uh Kristen shabella you can spell your last name for the record s h u ASM boy i l l a m shal would you right raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you and for the record I live at 1068 Mount Vernon um obviously I am against this project so I will be brief because I know we really would like this to be concluded tonight um as you're all louder CHR oh yeah as we're all aware our neighborhood already faces very severe flooding issues with homes that are so close to the rway river um while I know that this developer has you know claimed to comply with regulations the Army Corp of Engineers is currently doing a project which I'm sure you're well aware of called The raway River title project which is looking at ways to um resolve the flooding issues for homes that that are close to the raway river like ours are um that study hasn't been concluded yet so why are we going to approve a development right in that area before the stud's concluded that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me um the other issue that I'd like to talk about is traffic um somebody mentioned that you cannot make a left on mors Avenue and that's true so our neighborhood um specifically Mount Vernon Road and Mayfair are cut through roads so if you need to make a left on moris Avenue which is where you would go if you were going to the Garden State Parkway or to a school or to get to New York City you would have to cut through our neighborhood and make a right on Liberty and then a left on at the traffic light on Liberty so cars are speeding through our neighborhood all day long I have almost been hit twice at the intersection of U Mayfair and Larchmont which is right where this is proposed um that makes no sense our neighborhood is full of families and kids that um you know ride their bikes people walking their dogs I walk all the time are we going to wait for a tragedy before we say that this was a mistake um I'm very concerned about that so I sincerely hope that the planning board will take into account um our concerns our very legitimate concerns um of the over 200 residents and homeowners in this neighborhood over the um profit driven uh development that we're talking about here thank you thank you Jermaine hey uh oh okay you got something here oh yeah sure I'll plug it in um what am I looking at uh pictures okay no problem I I get it there we go just go to yard I guess I got to go on that side yeah go on that side yeah sure I got you good evening yard yeah yeah okay yard good evening uh Jermain Jermaine maette m a j e tte I do thank you is that four is that new exhibit just keep going keep going come back to these yeah so we're going to start with that one this one okay yes I currently uh for the record I live in 2798 Larchmont Road um this is4 please and this project is being proposed right in my backyard adjacent to my house right here um yes that's a picture from my bathroom on the second floor into that yard in its current in that yard in its current state uh I moved to Union 2013 when the first attempt was uh blocked um saw I saw the signs I saw the camaraderie with the community and that was something that I really liked and I was happy that I purchased the home there um since then this yard has just gone to like a wasteland um most recently over the past two years I've been making complaints to Union Township about the trees that are leaning on my property um with no resolve uh finally there was over two years there was finally someone that that came out to cut the trees um threw to me making a a violation with the township I asked that the property owner come to me and kind of organize coordinate when they can cut the trees this property owner cut the trees Memorial Day weekend and left my backyard in a complete mess I had an event that weekend there was debris you could go to more the green The Greener pictures they left yeah they left branches hanging over into my property please make that 05 what's the DAT of that that should be May uh estimate if you right click and do property oh yeah right you guys I think it's on the file name May 24th 24 oh you see it right up top okay that's 20245 24 yep yeah so Memorial Day weekend had an event this this is how my property looked damaged bushes damaged plants um and and the trees that they cut they just put them right they laid them right aside my fence on on their property and they're still there to this day um they only cut a few trees that time but they were told to cut about seven trees they didn't come to cut those remaining Seven Trees till about September again I wasn't present there was more debris more garbage in my yard and I had to clean it up MH um just over the the the 11 years that I've been here going on 12 years again I see the property that's on the corner the one that's going to be demolished it's not maintained the the gutters are always over filled with with leaves um misquito they they don't Rake The Yard there's there's rodents there's they they haven't taken care of the yard at all or their land and I just I feel personally I feel that with a building and not to have Property Management there they're not going to take care of that building they're not going to pick up the trash they're not going to worry about the noise complaints of cars being parked in my backyard basically because that's where their parking lot is going to be in my backyard noise trash just things that come with additional people um there were some comments made by the planner I just was writing notes sorry um so yeah I'm just the planner said that the project is similar to other structures other buildings on mors Avenue uh I I don't agree with that because they're more offset they're not close to the properties on the other side of Morris Avenue this property is going to be right next to my house and I believe Mark I don't know if Mark's here his house and and the others surrounding it um those properties are way offset so I I don't agree with that the bank is not next to a property they have big parking lots you could see right on tomor Avenue also the traffic I live I live right there in 2798 I hear accidents all the time all the I just heard one last week so to put more you know congestion there more more traffic maybe a safety the hazard um but yeah I I I don't recommend it and also I got a letter in March saying three variances I only heard one today and I don't know which property that one variance is still on but I don't agree with any variants I don't I don't property I like to also chime in in regards to what Jame Jermaine mentioned thank you very much we just had a snowfall okay um I get off the bus the 114 bus right there and I walk around that corner I challenge you to take a look unfortunately I'm unable to find the photographs they have not plowed shoveled or done anything with the sidewalk in front of their Frontage including the property that they're renting so that being said one family they can't maintain versus 11 units and 21 parking spaces and you're asking them to do that now no I mean I again this is what we've been dealing with I've only been here six years but I've heard the horror stories from gentleman like him and the L rest of our community and we are a community okay um thanks thanks a lot than who oh Erica Hello Steven borders Erica delos Rio 2771 largemont Road can you spell your last name for the for the record Steven borders b o r d RS Erica deos Rio d l r i oos Mr borders will you raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give the truth the whole truth in the nothing about the truth yes yes um yes I'm sorry you swear as well yes thank you I did in 2020 we chose to purchase our home in largemont because it is a peaceful safe and clean neighborhood the construction of a multif family building would dramatically change its quiet and peaceful nature more people means more traffic more noise air pollution more littering this construction would make our neighborhood significantly unsafe multiple units that are being rented means a constant influx of strangers coming into our neighborhood each family in these units will increase the traffic not only due to the tenants themselves but also for deliveries post office deliveries grocery deliveries school buses and tenants visitors there's only one access into large wine Estates from Mars Avenue and the developers requesting to construct a building precisely on this intersection as it stands they are already is congestion trying to come from or or go on Morris Avenue the additional unnecessary traffic resulting from this construction will make getting in and out of our neighborhood cumbersome and dangerous during rush hour traffic will be backed up all along large M Road possibly in front of our home where the street has been clear and quiet our neighborhood was not designed for that amount of traffic we do not want our standard of living to be diminished or the character of our neighborhood to change for the reasons stated we vehemently oppose the construction of this apartment building thank you appreciate it 12 come uh you take the other one okay can you state your name and spell your last name for the record please yes Geraldine Fields fi e l DS Miss Fields would you raise your right hand you swear the testimony about to give the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you good evening board members by now based on the remarks that you've heard is it okay if I remove this m and kind of talk to you is that okay all right by now based on the remarks you've heard and our diligence in attending these meetings You can conclude that the large Mona State's residents are not in favor of this project I as well as my neighbors move to large mon States because this wellmaintained distinct neighborhood is beautiful quiet and comprised of pictures single family colonial style homes we really like our neighborhood and take great pride in our close-knit community that said the proposed project does not fit our neighborhood and is not in line with the style and the character of existing homes in large Mona states of great concern is the prospect of diminishing value of our home this rental project will compromise the value of our property renters in some cases tend to be less invested in the neighborhoods than homeowners who have a strong financial incentive to maintain the quality of the neighborhood the influx of people will overpopulate our neighborhood disrupt our quality of life and exacerbate an existing traffic and parking issue that we currently are experiencing the corner of Maris en largemont is currently a dangerous area there is a bus stop a funeral home and medical offices at that intersection cars heading eastbound on Maris Avenue turn left as you've heard from testimony onto largemont Road cutting through our neighborhood to avoid the traffic light at morson Liberty the proposed project with an entrance and exit several feet from the corner of Mars in largemont will cause this area to become even more problematic resulting in severe auto accidents as well as pedestrian accidents further there be a negative spillover effect from this project poor upkeep Auto congestion and an overpopulation of people in a very small and condensed area to this to point to this perspective the existing home on the property is not currently as you've heard and has not for years been adequately maintained we can easily conclude that a multi-unit property will ultimately experience the same lack of care lastly of Paramount concern are current flooding issues we have experienced for years this project will put undue pressure and further overload existing basins causing Devastation to the homes and residents in our neighborhood finally board members we the large mate residents respectfully ask the members of this board to decline this project before I close I'd like to mention that we are offended that our monument at the entrance on Larchmont Avenue representing the Larch estate section has been included in the developers drawings and being repurposed for their benefit to highlight their project you can pass that around during the December meeting we heard a lot of verbal commitments regarding what the developer will do and what will be done but there is no documented evidence of this nor were they included in the plans the developers fire expert testified that he spoke with our fire chief about several important issues that were highlighted in his report that overhead wires be put underground to afford clear access to the roof for a fire rescue purposes the developers fire expert further testify that he and our fire chief discussed the fireproof stairwell and deemed it to be a sufficient means of egress however there is no formal written report from the chief from the fire chief agreeing to acques on any of the matters highlighted in his report however there was an email presented at 459 today to indicate that there was an agreement however when the fire chief made his initial report it was a formal Report with his signature on the report we have now been shown today an email saying that he acquiesces to his original requirements I thank you for allowing us this time to verbalize our concerns and we we are hopeful that you will consider all that has been said this evening and vote opposing this project thank you thank you Geral de thank [Applause] you thank you um I just want to I just want to follow up with the photographs that I thought I did not have um this is the bus stop for where the 114 stops it stops a little bit before the hydrant plus or minus and that's actually the the poll for the um bus before before uh one picture at a time and basically what's the designation o oh I'm sorry um oh wow we got to go uh let's call this o 06 o 06 is this one I I'll keep it brief okay so 06 07 we'll make this one 08 I mean the entire block has not been uh shoveled salted and or maintained this was just a last snowfall and this is the one family house that they currently have a renter in so if you can't maintain one family house um 11 units 21 parking spaces that's some a bit of a stretch for them I would imagine um I almost slipped in this area by the way um I have one more item I like to talk about in brief it is in regards to what um Mr liberman alluded to regarding the building height um the in insulation that Stuart is speaking of is called continuous insulation continuous it is an insulation value above the fenestration that protects the entire building so it's almost like the skin of the building and what they want is they want that insulation to run up the building and across the parit and down so you measure the build the parit height not from the deck may I uh not from the deck which is where they're measuring right here that's the top of the deck cuz if you subtract the floor con con struction that would be 8 ft and that's the legal bedroom height but that's the end of the structure there is a layer of of insulation in order to make your I believe the R value is 38 you need 6 Ines at the drain and you need a quar of an inch per foot to slope back you could be very well at the again I'm saying could be because it hasn't been vetted yet by the architect but you could very well be one foot or if not more higher at where the parit should be measured so that means that that 34' 5 could very well be 35' 5 but unfortunately again it wasn't vetted it was just um how could I put this half cooked just kind of put together and just here you go and on this platter this is what we're giving you okay so um I I think I've had about enough um there's there's a number of uh things we talked about um in regards to the heights all these round all these round nodes right here are where their proposed grades are matching the existing grades on marks Marks here marks property okay so it's matching in some areas where the wall is they've done some deviation but for a good 50% of the side Lot line it is matching identically um the dotted line is an existing Contour that's 100 and if you follow this over here that's 100 101 101 and so on okay so um these are our concerns as a resident of Larchmont um Mayfair Road um I vly oppose this project all of the reasons that we all stated here as well as understanding to put together a project like this zoning should happen incrementally one family Zone should be next to two family zones two family zones next to three family zones and so on to have 11 units 21 parking spaces next to a one family house is just unacceptable I thank [Applause] you any other comments from the public and I just want to do a time check we are at 9:45 so just be aware if if we don't have any more public comments uh we will now do summations um I'll call Mr liberman first and then Mr hail yes he should go you're right he should go list because he has the burden um thank you very much uh board thank you very much counselor and your your experts who you brought here as well and your client um I have had the the honor of representing the Larch M State civic association this is a a wonderful group of people and and they're committed and they're tight this is a community that's existed for quite some time and it's a stable good Community um what we're talking about here really represents a threat to this community now zoning is zoning zoning is zoning there's a planning board matter it's not a it's not a zoning board matter we all understand that I understand what it means but just because something is a conforming application doesn't mean it's approvable that's uh sometimes you hear that mantra not true there's plenty of cases that that go over that and and and in this case this application needs to be denied and I I'm going to go over the the the important reasons number one the storm water system has not been established the the the Lynch pin of this storm water system is the inlet on Larchmont Road and they have no idea if it's going to have capacity or not and you heard it you heard on cruise examination you heard it a few times how in the world can a a project be approved where the stormw system has not been very ified or proven and where it's completely dependent on something that they could have investigated they could have found out how this is going to work they could have done a study to see whether it can absorb it all whether there's going to be uh some sort of you know whether it's whether it has capacity to handle this whether there's going to be a search charge they could have they could have looked at this they don't even need know the size of the piping in that Inlet would have been so easy to find that they could have probably just asked DPW what this in of of of that is is assuming that their has builts are right and half the time they are half the time they're not but they could have asked nothing was done nothing was done I mean the answers were so unsatisfactory and yet you saw pictures of what happens in this community with substantial rainfalls so you're connecting a failure to to understand whether the storm water system is going to work with known flooding that happens around this community it was it's it makes it's the reason it's a significant reason why this isn't approvable why this isn't approvable and you know your ordinances deal with with with with the the needs to you have ordinances that deal with storm order and storm order requirements it's something that's clear has to be taken care of we have state laws as well and they have not proven it they haven't proven it the fire issue is very interesting to me I don't know what happened with the Fire Chief and and and and I don't know what these discussions were but at the end of the day here's what you need to know your ordinances require and I'm talking about ordinance 11- 3.2 that all Property Owners ensure that their projects are free from uh fire risks and that Ingress and egress is provided and that adequate Ingress egress it's in your code uh 11.3.2 says that uh fire hazards and interference with fire department operations uh aren't allowable and section 30.12 provides that your land use ordinances in general this is your ordinance um are intended to uh secure safety from fire flood and panic and boy you have a raging fire you're going to have fire you're going to have panic and and and we have a fire problem how in the world using your understanding your live here you've been here a long time you understand what's how can you have a fire plan where the trucks have to be in the middle of Mars Avenue and think that's a good idea and the fire chief was complaining about now the fire chief isn't but you know the board can independently look at that issue you can determine whether you think it's a good idea that originally in Prior iterations all four sides weren't taken in the most recent one the fire chief wrote now all four sides are taken and now because they are cramming too much development in too little space the firet truck have to go on Mars Avenue it's just a bad idea you know this is a bad idea and and it shouldn't be allowed and then the other thing I want to talk about and by the way uh well the other thing I want to talk about is the height issue I I think it's clear that we have not seen proof that a variance isn't required for height uh there there's too much detail that hasn't been provided what you were told by the architect is I'm sure we could do it that was the the testimony you will I'm sure we can do it I don't think that's enough they have to show in drawings that they did it that they did it and they didn't show that so this is not a good project this is cramming too much and too little space but with very real consequences A stormw system that has not been proven to work they could have done it they had the resources to do it they could have done it and they didn't do it you ask why they didn't do it maybe they didn't want to know the answer maybe they didn't want to know the answer and uh a fire risk that's unacceptable so I respectfully request on behalf of my clients who've come every night to these meetings and devoted their time and you thank you for your time that this application be denied for the reasons that I've set forth tonight thank you everybody and thank you to my colleague as well [Applause] Mr chairman board members board professionals staff and certainly Mr liberman and the members of the large M Association appreciate all your time and concern but let me just touch again on why we're here and the function of the board uh as has been indicated on many times the multif family use that we're proposing here is a permitted use in the zone the only relief that we need as far as the variance is the fact that the one side of the property which is pre-existing is 140 ft in fact if you look at the plans and our team testified to it this the side on largemont is actually much wider in fact if you scale it out it's almost 170 feet so it's only that one area that is short and it doesn't impact our project but let's talk again about the zoning talking about oh this shouldn't be allowed here why have this next to single family homes well a handful of years ago this board endorsed changing the Zone from one and two family homes to the NC Zone which allowed so it had to go Township committee sent it to this board you had coler's report on it and they said this is an appropriate Zone for NC uses and among those uses as we said one is multif family and you heard clear unre unrented testimony by our professional planner and by our traffic engineer that that is perhaps the least intensive use that could be on this property and I've said it several times you could have a child care center there you could have a restaurant you could have a brew pub there real estate sales a medical office small hospital or fast food restaurant could go at this location and if we were here proposing one of those that would have much more traffic much more impact could be cars parking up and down the street suppose it was a fast food restaurant or or a restaurant there would be cars parked up and down largemont here it's sir please um I didn't speak when you were speaking so we look at this say the this planning board and the township chose to Zone this andc so the use again that we're permitting is consistent proposing is consistent with what the zoning is and not only that uh the applicant took steps to make sure we complied with all of the bulk requirements we meet the setbacks there was a concern about how close the parking was well the parking complies we comply with the uh with the impervious coverage we comply with the density all of those issues of site plan we're in compliance with the height we have a plan that shows we comply with the height we are not seeking a height variance and this project gets when this project gets approved it's going to have to get an approv by the building department because we're not seeking relief from a height variance so our plans show we comply with the height and we're not seeking height fance so that shouldn't be a question uh with respect to the the parking there's question well is there enough parking we comply with what the requirements are under the ordinance for parking that's what's required under the ordinance the project is extensively landscaped also buffering throughout the property and again complies with all the in the ordinance there's a certain requirement for impervious you can't have a certain amount more of Park uh parking areas s sidewalks a building we comply with all that there's a density requirement if we were looking for 15 units we wouldn't be before this board we before the zoning board seeking a variance for density we're not seeking that we when the project was designed it complies with all of that so uh and then when we look at the uh the fire you have the the memorandum from the fire department we agreed we work with them and you heard the testimony that we went above and beyond if this project was approved and the fire department originally didn't have any comment we could have put in that the uh our system which is the residential system and the building code doesn't require more than that our client has agreed to go above and beyond that and I think that the testimony from Mr NIS was very compelling that we are going to go above and beyond so again the relief that we're seeking is is very minimal and certainly our planner provided the the justification for that relief again it's only the one side that's slightly deficient but we didn't say okay well that's slightly deficient we need a setback variance or something no make a comply and again you look at the shape of that lot the large F side is much larger it's only the the other side again all again both sides of it buffered with Landscaping so I think for all of these reasons again what is the function and role of this board the function and role of this board is to look at a project and from a zoning standpoint does it does it should it be approved well it's consistent with zoning doesn't require any new variances and there's one di Minimus lot with variance for one side of the property I know there was a lot brought up with respect to flooding and drainage we agreed to comply with all requirements we received you you have to rely on your Professionals in the review of our drainage we had a detailed drainage report and plans prepared they were reviewed by Colliers and they there were there was one com comment that said there was a question as to whether or not complied that was supplemented and clarified and your engineer confirmed that our drainage system works there's concern about well this is going to cause more drainage down Downstream well we're actually and this testimony was confirmed by our engineer by your engineer that the flow off the property is being reduced and the system was sized not counting on infiltration into the ground but was sized not taking that into an account but they did perks and there will be percolation so again circling back I realize the civic association essentially doesn't want anything here but certainly a well-designed uh variance free multif family project is certainly much more desirable than any of the other uses that this board endorsed would be permitted on this site and then again the issues of drainage and like are within the purview of your professionals and would have to comply with all of their requirements which we've done so again I respect uh the concerns of the neighbors but I think this is a well-designed project and uh we requested the board Grant the uh Grant the site plan approval this project can move forward and we will comply one of the things with respect to fire that any of those conditions would be incorporated into a resolution of approval and we can't deviate from that resolution could also say no height barrance is being sought all of the conditions that are that are in our plans and that the professionals testified are the uh the safeguards for the township as a whole and the largemont area that it will be done in that Accord so again I appreciate your time the neighbors time the professionals time and we look forward to the board granting this application so thank you very much all right we managed to get all uh testimony in within 10:00 uh so this board will be taking action tonight but last and last but not least um uh comments from the board on this application if anyone wants to State anything for the record brother chairman can we cus in the back before this vote just the board itself sure um we can take maybe like a a 3 minute recess we can go back um because all testimony is done already by 10 o'clock we can presume after we can resume after 10 o'cl and then take the vote as necessary okay just U you can check with Council but everything has to all discussions have to be in public though yes I I defer it you need to have aers with me is that what you're asking for basically any deliberation that requires a quorum the board has to be done in public if it's more so seeking counsel from you know um councel or for the engineer on certain things then you know I I would entertain that but any deliberations that involve a quorum of the board we would have to do it in public okay so no sorry about I just want to make sure we y maintain all that uh comments from board members Mr Goan yes thank you Mr chairman I have to say this has been a very uh very interesting hearing over the course of the two meetings we've been here uh I found all of the testimony to be very compelling it's clear to me that the applicant has had competent experts but we also had testimony from the lived experience and the evidence presented by the residents uh Mr hail made a point to uh try to school us on what the function of the board is but as a representative I also have a resp I believe I personally have a responsibility to the Community Based on a testimony that we've heard I still I continue to have grave concerns about drainage issues overall whether or not the calculations by the expert for the for the applicant um calculates through industry standards that the uh drainage or the the amount of flow from the project specifically is going to diminish flow or not it's pretty clear to me that any flow from this project will exacerbate flooding issues in that entire drainage area I have concerns about the appropriateness whether this is uh a permitted use or not I have concerns about the appropriateness for of this project for this particular neighborhood and you know like the testimony from the engineer it's clear to me that the traffic expert uh knew exactly what to the facts to which he was testifying but Common Sense suggests to me that anything adding to what's what the uh members of the public have testified occurs in that area and frankly I've driven in that neighborhood so I'm I'm aware that it's a cut through u i put cut through at the speed limit at the speed limit I'm very very assiduous about the speed limit I don't want to get a ticket uh so I personally don't feel that I could support this application any other comments from board members well I'll provide some comments myself um I'm profoundly concerned with the impact of this application when it comes to flooding reading through the storm water management report it is evidently clear that it was a report with a methodology that was way too simplistic basically depending on a simple equation that basically multiplies three things and it does not count for the nuances of that Community does not count for the capacity of that storm sore it does not count for the fact that you have a major river that is a couple hundred feet away from that property we've heard testimony in which honestly the engineer couldn't even confirm if a property within 200 ft was within a Zone AE FEMA flood designation and that told me a lot told me that all those considerations were not factored in and how potentially this application would exacerbate flooding conditions in a community in which most if not all of Mount Vernon Road is in a flood zone if not most maybe all of Cara R is in a flood zone and that Nuance wasn't taken to account the testimony provided from from from that for me was not credible because it relied on simplistic calculations that did not factor in a lot of complexities and let's say if the runoff defies gravity and actually goes to Morris Avenue in which as stated in the report the Topography of the site moderately slopes generally in Northwestern Le direction towards large mountain let's just say if it goes over capacity and all that runoff goes well it's going to go on a major Road Morris Avenue so there is detriments whether it's going to be on Morris Avenue whether it's going to be on largemont road and Mount Vernon Road and Etc but I go back to the master plan because part of a planning board is to see if an application would also support the ideals of a master plan and so one of the goals and objectives is to maintain the character of existing residential neighborhoods and I'm citing from page what's the page number 83 of the master plan regarding in land use and one of the components is preserve the Integrity of established single family and two family home neighborhoods by preventing intrusion of more intense uses which will generate overcrowding and increased traffic and I think as we heard from the testimony and you know again not to um dismiss the uh experiences and the education of the expert Witnesses I think there's a lot to suspect in terms of the trip generation utilizing a meth methodology as well that is very broad 20 years of traffic data that is from rural areas Suburban urban areas and then utilizing the average I asked my question with regards to the average and not using the median because averages are skewed by extremes so I also find that there is um shortcomings and flaws with the trip generation numbers as well which lend to that point of our master plan additionally to that part of the master plan is to essentially limit high density and multi-unit residential development to areas with convenience uh convenient access to Transit I guess some someone one can say and argue you might have a bus stop there but it's not next to a train station it's not next to um a mass transport system that can accommodate tens hundreds of folks in that surrounding area so it's not consistent with that as well but I Al I go back to the point with regards to flooding and understand and can IM imagine the struggles that people go through even when it's not a 100-year storm and I can't I can't fathom and I cannot in good conscious support an application that puts that risk especially on homeowners that purchase that type of insurance have to purchase that insurance in a Zone AE flooding Zone and deal the repercussions potentially of additional impervious coverage putting forth po more volume in that neighborhood and in good conscious I can't support the application any other comments from the board so can I get a motion to move the application and if the motion would be to move it for a vote a yes would indicate your support to approve it and no would be not to support it and reject it so can I get a mo motion to move the application for a vyl vote move move by Mr Miller is there a second second second uh by Mr Alexander roll call please okay excuse me one second okay Mr Alexander yes Mr Cohan no Mr fr no Mr Miller no mayor Bowser no committee woman Terrell Iain Miss Khan no Miss Collin no chairman l no the application has been rejected by the board thank you thank you sir be before we conclude just to just to close the loop on administrative matters Council um can you just provide just some information on in terms of what potential next steps could could arise you might want to listen to this actually everybody we still with second basically what potential Next Step could happen with this application now that it's projected by the board well they come back for you might want to speak into the mic with this you might want to speak into the mic so we have it for the record and oh here here you go be here they they obviously have the right to to challenge the board's decision if they want to take it to court of a action in L of prerogative rits uh they could come back and they can modify their application and make new application to the board uh obviously you that wouldn't happen until after the resolution gets passed at the next meeting okay all right so with that uh just to stipulate in terms of what those potential next steps are so that um all parties are just aware of what could happen next but you know at the very least it's is currently rejected by the planning board there could be other legal matters that can be pursued in some kind of appeal or whatever um that is the prerogative of the applicant um so with that uh I don't think there's any other business so can I get a motion to adjourn so moved moved by Mr Coan is there a second seconded by Mrs scan uh all those in favor say I I hi meeting adjourn