Natalie. >> Call the meeting to order. Would the clerk please read the meeting statements? regular meeting was provided to the public and the press on January 19th, 2025 and was posted at the municipal building in accordance with the open
public act and JSA 10 only4-7. >> Thank you. >> Closer member >> here. Denadto present. Member Higgins >> here. >> President Rudo
>> here. >> Please join rise and join me when a pledge to our flag. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all. evening. We have a to hear from our chiefs of police and to recognize of our long-standing members of our department. uh in view of the rewards that we've
received in terms of uh recognition, I think it's uh it's wonderful. So, I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce Chief Dan Young uh and uh you can make your have your comments.
>> Thank you very much. Good evening everyone. I'd like to thank the council and the mayor for this opportunity to be here tonight. It's a special event for us. So, something's happening on December 31st of this year. We're going to be retiring our special police officer program. Uh, it's part of our agency that we've had for for decades
now. So, uh, that's going to sunset on December 31st. So, we wanted to take an opportunity to recognize some guys that have been here for a very long time serving our community. So, if I can ask them to come forward, uh, while I do a quick presentation, I'd like to ask, uh, Special Officer Mike Sour, uh, Special
Officer Doug Vince, and Special Officer Jim Vet to please come forward if you could, please. Thanks. You're welcome. SC >> over the past uh many decades. Um our special police officers have played an important role in our department. Uh
they've assisted us with uh holding locations for voting, um school graduations, school sporting events, parades, and all sorts of other events throughout the year. And tonight, we're going to recognize and honor the three remaining active special police officers who have been long-standing members of
our police department. So, the first one I would like to recognize is uh special police officer Mike Sauer. He was hired in 1990 and he's provided 35 years of service to the township of Vernon. presented the special police officer Mike Sour from 1990 to 2025 in
recognition and appreciation of your 35 years of dedicated and loyal service to the residents of Vernon Township. Uh next up we're going to recognize Special Police Officer Jim Vet. He was hired in 1986 and he provided 39 years of service to
the township of Vernon. Uh this award, this recognition is presented to special police officer Jim Vet from 1986 to 2025 in recognition and appreciation of your 39 years of dedicated and loyal service to the residents of Vernon Township. Thank you, Jim.
Certainly not least, uh Special Police Officer Doug Vince. Uh he also was hired in 1986 and he provided 39 years of service to Bernie Township. Uh and this recognition is presented to special police officer Doug Vince from 1986 to 2025 in recognition and appreciation of
your 39 years of dedicated and loyal service to the residents of Vernon Township. >> When uh Jim and Doug got hired, I was 10 years old. Staged myself a little bit. Um, but also uh like to present them with their
retired ID cards. >> You're welcome. In >> closing, I'd like on behalf of the Vernon Township Police Department, I would like to thank each of you for your contributions to our municipality, your professionalism, and your commitment to our agency and our community. Thank you
very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Congratulations. Thank you. >> Congratulations. Thanks. >> Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Council President. I appreciate the time and opportunity to
speak tonight. Thank you, everyone. People may want to know, you know, we've received a couple of awards and uh Vernon being a very safe town to live in
how we repeated it, recognized and I think this is part of the program, gentlemen that are included and the services that become part of the township and what they do for this
township so that we can have a safe town. And we had to we don't worry about those incidents that somewhat can create problems and uh and have people think ill of the
township and the uh type of living standard that we have here. I think it's quite high and I think the gentlemen and the the police department that work uh on behalf of this community exemplify that in their professionalism and in
their their work. Thank you so much chief staff. >> Mayor, do you have your comments? >> Yes. Thank you, council president. So, I want to thank everybody who came out to our free lighting event. Um,
have as many people uh still a good a good turnout and a great way to bring it to. So, with that being said, uh this Saturday at 4:30 at the Veterans Park, the train will be coming in. Um so, don't don't miss that as well. Um
tonight we have an application for um for a 27 unit building. So, in accordance with the requirements for long-term tax exemption law, NJSA4A 20-1
uh the the exemption law I have reviewed the application proposed financial agreement and related documents collectively the application submitted by Omega Drive Redevelopment Urban Renewal LLC, the entity for the proposed
redevelopment of the property currently identified as block 403 lots two and three formerly block 141.02 02 lots two and three are the official tax maps in the in the township of
Vernon. The entity propos the the entity proposes to redevelop the property by constructing there on a fourstory multifamily residential building containing a total of 27 residential
units inclusive of six units affordable to low and moderate income families. 40 um 42 off streetet parking spaces, two of which will be designated as ADA
compliant along with associated on-site and off-site improvements. The project will will provide both short and long-term economic development advantages to the township and as much as it will be beneficial to overall
community will achieve the goals and objectives of the town center redevelopment plan will help revitalize the property. Will improve the quality of life for the community. We'll create 29 full-time temporary jobs and 14 full-time permanent jobs in the
township. will serve as a catalyst for further further private investment in areas surrounding the property and will enhance the economic development of the township. I believe that this project is desirable and beneficial improvement in
the township and that the use of the exemption law will assist the township in advancing the revitalization of the redevelopment area. Therefore, I recommend that this application be favorably considered by the township council that all legal prerequisites
have been met. Thank you. Uh tonight I guess we will have a discussion on the the garbage um as well. But um so that is my comments for tonight.
>> Thank you. Well, at our last meeting, questions were raised regarding the issue of the garbage incentive as is as it is noticed. Uh, and it was requested that
we I place it on the agenda for a discussion. uh to see if there was any other items or any other questions uh based upon information that the mayor would uh supply us.
Has anybody received any information from the administration that would uh way provide for some qu you know to resolve any questions in your mind? Well, I've had multiple discussions with
the mayor over the last uh what, Anthony, three, four days, and the topic was, do we have all the facts? Can we move forward? And uh you know, there's a little difference of opinion. The mayor is of the belief that we have all the
facts, we've expended the money, and the program's ready to go. I'm more from a business angle, and I say, let's identify the real costs. Even if we've purchased equipment such as compactors, in my mind, that can't be just stated as, oh, we own it already. It really is
a cost for this program because we've actually paid the money up front for it. The other thing is we've had some positive response and I I hope the program goes through. I think it's good for the residents if they want it. I mean, everybody complains about all the high fees that they're getting from
waste management and all the other places. And if we can, then we should offer something that makes sense. But right now, we just don't have the facts. We have we have a survey. We have some positive responses, more positive than negative, but nobody's coughed up any
money yet. Nobody's been told here's the deadline. Nobody's been told we have x number of employees to man the site. And I was speaking to the mayor and there's there's one employee who's down there recycling now. And my questions were,
does that employee now take on double duties? Can you do that? Can you add double duties to a person who's there five days a week, four days a week and make it a five day a week program because the recycling currently is four and this would go to five or do we need
another employee to enhance that one employee is there right now. And if you do add another employee, you know, with benefits and the salary and the rest, you're talking$110,000 minimum and that has to be added to the cost. We do have a person who's in
recycling that doing duties that they're already assigned to. So those are just some of the questions and once we can finalize those answers, then you know, we can move forward with a resolution to say to the public, now's the time to
step up. know what the break even point is. And even if we go in a little bit light and more people uh take advantage of the service, then we can afford to do that. Can't go in in my mind somewhat blind right now. There's just too much
to ask and too little to uh go by. It's uh a little tough right now. So I I still think it's a viable program if we can uh finalize some of those things. Miss, you better do it. Uh,
>> no. Um, I'm I'm good. Um, I mean, I I think the wear and tear was one of the questions I had and then I guess the overtime for the late night. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Um, I just had a quick comment, Bill. You said something about an employee, but if we're only if we're only adding one day, would we need another full-time
employee or would we need another >> Well, so we have employees that are currently uh working um five days a week in that yard. Yes, we're only open well five days a week if you want to count the Saturday. Um like I said and and and
Bill, I sent you the message too. Uh and that came right from the DPW director's mouth. We are not this is not more manpower and we are not hiring. Um the hours um are adjustable. We are hiring and it's only because somebody is
leaving a part-time recycling center uh uh attendant. Um they they they're leaving. I don't think they just left or they they are leaving but but that's the reason why we have another parttime. >> We're not hiring. It's not an additional headcount. It's basic. >> No, absolutely not. Originally, that's
what I thought we were going to do. And then really those numbers would would change, but we're not hiring anybody. We're not buying anything. Um, so and that's why it's it's when I see all these, you know, these costs in there, it's like, you know, uh, we we have all
the equipment, we have the trucks, we have the compactor, we have the staff, um, if this project does not take off, taxpayers are still paying for it one way or the other. And this, all the stuff that was purchased had nothing to
do with this. This was just an afterthought. Um, and why not, right? So, if if if I I found ways to reduce costs by by managing our own garbage. So, at this point, why not see if we can
uh extend it to uh to the citizens who who again who've been struggling with the high cost. Um, we projected that everybody who is visiting the recycling center now will probably bring their garbage as well.
um we cannot take we cannot start a process um where we could start collecting applications without having something go forward. I believe that the the CFO even said that's just maybe the the attorney can weigh in on that. I
don't think we can even legally do that. Um I was asked to do a survey. We did a survey. Um there's 310 yeses to 110 nos. Like I said, a lot of those a lot of those nos were people who already had it
part of their dues. Um, so I don't expect those people to to jump in on something like this. Again, this is an individual service. Um, and it's not something that we're projecting that everyone has to be part of this. This
just helps put couple extra bucks in your pocket. um you know and especially those who are coming down to the recycling center. It's a service. It's a good service. Um like I said, we have all the equipment, we have the trucks, we have the the authority to do it. Um
the only thing really here is just we're visiting Schoomer. Uh maybe an extra time, you know, a week or two. Um but that will build up as as as it grows. It will build up. uh and those it's not like we it's building up what punish and
we're not collecting anything on it. We're still we as you grow the the amount of people and fees and the membership fees um that go to to cover those costs. Like I said, we have everything. Um so there's no there's no
upfront cost to this. This is why I to me I think this is just common sense. I think that this would be a good service and and ultimately um it's projected to be a revenue maker for itself. >> If you figure the cost of a program, are
you including or excluding the cost of the compactors that you purchased? >> I'm explaining it because this this compactor had nothing to do with this program. That's why I go on to go back to the uh the uh May meeting when the bond issue had a compactor in it and I
specifically asked if that compactor was going to be used for a garbage collection program that you were thinking about and the answer was no. And obviously that's not true. The answer was yes because you bought it. It's installed. The cost of installing it, the cement base, the electricity to
hook it up is all there >> at the time. Yes, that that's correct. >> At the time, you should have said yes, it's going to be used to be. You didn't. It's >> an afterthought. >> As a matter of fact, even your even your DPW director said, "Let's hold off on
the purchase of any secondary equipment, the sec, which would have been the second compactor because we haven't even gone into our summer season yet. and uh I have copies of the uh of the uh back
and forth between you and Mr. Asia and uh you said simply no let's we'll move forward on this >> kept it off um because again we were delivering a 0% uh tax increase so I had to make cuts that the the second
compactor was part of the original uh budget. Um so I had to go through a lot of things and remove a lot of a lot of equipment and the compactor was one of them. Um, but if you if you look at the
compactor, well, if you look at the slab of concrete that was put in there, it was slated for two compactors. Um, but we but because we we were trying to cut a lot off of all the budget so we could could present a 0% uh increase, that's
one of the things that I I've taken off my uh my capital budget items. But >> inevitably you bought that per you bought the compactor after the uh after your your DPW
director said let's hold off and see what happens in the summer the summer season. >> No, I I don't think >> machine was already ordered. As a matter of fact, I believe the machine is only appearing now on the >> on the bills list today. Hey, there's a
and a $21,000 bill for repairing yet another compactor. >> I don't I don't recall him ever saying, "Let's hold off on that." I think that >> I I have a copy of the >> I will see that. Um but that may have been again something that when we had a
cut, we had to make some cuts. That's where it got cut from. Um this was an afterthought. This had nothing to do with the original purchase. >> Yeah. Our point here Andy isn't to say you said this we could. It's to come up
with that cost figure from a business background. Anytime I've been asked in management to present a program that had the cost >> I agree. I agree with you. Absolutely. We're at the beginning today. >> We can't agree that these compact were an extra cost. >> No, I agree. I agree with
>> you said there's we own it. There's no cost. There is a cost. >> I agree with >> Bill. I agree with you. If I came to you and said, "Look, this is what I want to do. However, I need a truck. I need compactors. I Yes, absolutely. That stuff had to be included, but that was
not part of this after that was able to then just become a a service and and possibly a revenue maker for the town. That's it. If this is not going to
pay for itself or or be worth it, I'll be the first one to get rid of it. I've been I've worked hard to try to cut costs everywhere I can. Believe me, if this is something that's going to be on on on us, I'm going to get rid of it. And our
CFO has has has blessed this as well. DPW director Tina has looked at it, too. We we've all looked at this and agree that this is something that's that's very good. It's a it's a uh it's a win-win. You know, like I said, I understand if I said to you guys, "This
is what I want to do, but I'm equipment." Absolutely. I have to give you that information, that breakdown. But that was not the case. You have everything that was for business period just on how we and I took over the garbage. That's why we had
the two compactors. You want to have two compactors in case one breaks down. You have to have that especially if you're managing your body. And this is pretty much taken the same tactic we've had over the last three >> and they garbage compactors
just by managing our own garbage pays for itself within less than three years. >> So I was going to say what happens if we add the garbage compactor in and with the 21,000 what was that repair and how often will we need a repair that hefty? That's >> uh I don't we see the uh
>> the 21 It was a $21,000 repair >> on today's bills. >> No, that wasn't a repair. >> Wasn't a repair. What was it? >> Was a $500 repair. >> That's the repair that will be sent.
We had to do a lot of welding. >> It's not open yet. >> The meeting isn't open for the >> $520. >> Well, so all right. So, let's pause on that. What would happen if you did add the cost of the compactor into the project while Bill looks for it?
>> $31,000 is what the compactor cost. >> So if it if it add if it gets added to the project bill then then are you okay with it like >> right? So let's say we add it in. >> He wants to run the numbers with that. Did you >> Okay. So So add it in and then run the numbers.
>> That's just that's one subject. Let's go back to the personnel that we just skimmed over. We have a 4 day a week recycling person down there. If if if I'm understanding your proposal, you're going to take that one person and say
you're now 5 days a week. You're doing the recycling and you're also doing the garbage collection because you haven't accounted for any other personnel. How can you do that? >> It's already five days. >> How can you do that? >> It's already five days. >> Well, how are you going to be able to
take a program that you haven't even initiated? All right. and begin to pract, you know, run that program and find out later on that you need more
personnel. Uh, as a matter of fact, this is the first time that I'm hearing that you weren't planning on hiring personnel because the what you gave us was basically the information of hour hourly
rates and and uh annual cost, but you seem to have forgotten so many other things. >> Well, you know, >> if we were not hiring him, that that was the original conversation, Jess. Um and then how he came back and said he didn't need to. Um and we need an additional
manpower to >> Yes. And that was in the same was that in the same conversation where he said don't let's not buy anything new until we find out what's what the the after the summer season is completed and what we need and how we are able to handle
that. I I don't know what you're I have to see what you're referring to because I don't um like I said I had to take the compactor out. I had to cut costs that that's why we did it. Um how's been how's been uh fully supported the whole
way. I there was not once that how we was trying to say let's not do this because this actually the only thing he's weighed in on is that it was definitely uh doable. um we didn't require to hire somebody um
and we can talk about those days and hours. Um >> so Howie thinks based on the current staffing he can cover the garbage. >> Yes. And I sent I sent uh Mr. Hag a picture of the the conversation actually
from who said no no no additional manpower needed. >> Okay, >> let's go the other way. Suppose you find out that because of the popularity of the of the program that you're going to need new uh new personnel, additional
personnel. We don't even have an a breakdown as to what that personnel might cost. There's only >> and in fact there's only so much that people uh >> can be pulling up uh to a compactor. We're not going to have, you know,
multiple people in cars. It's it's going to be one at a time. So, it's it's still not going to be an additional manpower. >> Well, who's going to be looking in these bags? I'm serious. Who's going to be looking in the bags right now? You're excuse me.
You're saying that you cannot bring down uh bags other than the clear bags that people can see through. Uh I can see what's going to happen. People come down, they're in black bags, blue, you know, the uh the the the non-transucent
bags, and people are going to start throwing them in the compactor. Uh people are going to then start look have to look at that. You're going to be saying to other pe people are going to then say you can't take this bag and put it in there because it has this in it or
that in it generally uh construction materials or something like that. with first the um obviously if you're coming down with with eight large contractor bags that's it's going to be an issue right um it's
just to reassure that we are not throwing construction debris in there um it it's just it's just a slight oversight >> going to help these people >> well the staff member that's there >> well yeah >> so it's like the white kitchen bags
right white kitchen bags that you >> can't fit much in any. I mean, >> yeah. So, you can do seven white kitchen bags. >> So, the people that are working on other areas are going to come over and help the people help the the the residents as
they bring down bags for their uh for their for their garbage for the uh for the compact. >> That's that's where we have an employee. Yeah. And then who's going to somebody has to stamp the ticket.
>> Yes. The same the same intended. >> Stamp it. Throw it. >> I'm looking my concern is that this turns into one big uh cost center that we haven't planned for based upon just the base numbers that I was looking at.
You know, where we were where you had said where we might have to we would hire one person. I'm sorry. You said we would hire one person. >> That was the That was the first conversation. Yes. That's changed and I believe you were part of those convers I know I stretched that.
>> Well, I'm looking at $172,000. >> That that number is way off bat. >> Way off. >> Way off. >> So, we can assure ourselves then that the if this were to happen, we would spend no more than uh
about of uh of about $75,000. >> No more currently paying now. That's correct. >> So, we're a long way apart. You won't get off of the fact of saying that there's no extra cost. There is an extra cost, Anthony. There is. >> There's the extra cost. >> Now, Pat's numbers came up where well,
when you take a breakdown and an accountant did these numbers, some of them are total numbers. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday 32 times 52 weeks in a year. >> We will hire >> the number of hours. >> If we were hiring an employee
Yes. I I I I don't even know if that number is even right, but I think it's like a 100,000. Uh if we were hiring an employee, we are not hiring an employee. I don't know. We're not hiring buying equipment. >> How can you take a current employee >> because he's currently working? He's
currently >> Bob is tripled and you get no more hours and no more money. How can you do that? >> Currently working down there. >> He's currently working. >> You know what's going to happen? This is going to happen again. We had situations
where we tried to expand the level of responsibility for existing employees rather than hire a new employee. >> We have a new employee coming on board too. It's part-time employee. >> Yeah. But what happens with part-time employees? If you begin to use too many
part-time employees, you get a problem with the union because unions look out for their particular members. And if they find out that they're being that the union is being used as a block so that they don't have to hire uh so that
they you're forcing them to hire uh the township is forcing to to hire part- timerrs, then they're going to be against us. And we've had that problem already. It was it was a grievance that was filed against the township.
>> We we've had this conversation with the CFO and DPW director. >> The CFO is not again not this the CFO is not in favor of these numbers. I don't believe you tell you have her you have her sign that the numbers that you
presented here under over her signature under her signature however you place it are ones that uh she would certify fine I don't think that's going to happen >> your numbers here which by the way I just got today um in executive session
>> all week I have not received anything from anybody uh I would The members of the council, >> I would have this >> today. >> Tonight? >> Yeah, I got this >> for a discussion item. >> For the last couple weeks, I've been
asking to send me where you think that the numbers don't add up. And today, I'm getting it. I would have I would have gladly told you, you're adding an employee here. We're not hiring an employee. my my numbers are not my responsibility
for you to for me to justify to you. This is what I think based upon business practice. It's not what the CFO, the DPW director uh who are the boots on the ground, the people managing uh this township has stated to you and now you
just you come up with all this all this stuff. You're adding stuff on here. I mean, I even got I got rodents in here on a sealed compactor. I don't know how we're we're going to get that going, but I mean, all the stuff I'm just learning here that was just dropped on my on on
my on this desk an hour ago. >> So, there's no >> Oh my gosh. There's no there's no way for you to even uh >> begin to raise prices if you find these
uh these prices are not going to uh cover your cost. >> Do we know at what number of participants we would need to hire someone? Yeah, basically he's saying the mayor is saying you're looking at about 300 and
>> well that's people who answered and my my saying is Highland Lakes doesn't have garbage pickup in the summer uh in the winter. >> Have it anymore ever. >> They just I mean so and there's a lot of people that live in Highland Lakes. So I don't think these numbers are necessarily representative. So I think that works. So, one of the things we
might be able to do is why don't we use the first quarter of this year as a way of generating some interest and seeing if in fact you have enough people who are willing to make a commitment. Going there and saying, uh, I'll try
this out for two weeks or a month. >> Nobody says two weeks or a month, Pat. I think we all said a month. >> Let me finish. We'll try this out for two weeks or a month, and if you know I don't like it, I'll drop it. What what good does that do the township? >> Are you saying before the program is
ready they should >> Yes, absolutely. >> Is that legal or can we do that? Can we charge people for something that doesn't >> You could take a deposit. >> Okay. >> You could take a deposit. >> I don't I was told we cannot take a >> You need a resolution, right? To set Hold on. Marcy is saying no.
>> I mean, how you how could you start a program >> without an ordinance? >> Without an ordinance. >> An ordinance. Yeah. >> And collect fees. >> And I think a minimum six months. We can't collect fees and hold them. >> This is not >> have to be deposited within 48 hours. >> It can work if we have the figures.
We're we're not even agreeing that you're saying the cost of a compactor. You're saying it's it's already here. Anthony, a cost of a compactor is here. It's part of the cost of the program. >> You bought it when you said you weren't going to buy it. It's here. It's in it's
it's on the ground. It's a cost of the program. Just admit there's a cost of the program. And Natalie, there's a there's a cost on it. $23,172 a free. >> I saw the $500 compactor. >> Yeah. But cycling compactor. >> That's a cost. >> So that was I first of all, let me let's
I'll take a look at what what what those uh >> $500. >> That was the concern I had is the wear and tear on our equipment and the cost. >> Looking at these bills lists over I mean I think this is a good program. I think a lot of people want it. >> Containers bill. Is that a compact or
compact? hair recycling containers. >> Those are compactors though, right? >> Those that bill that you're talking about right now are the recycling containers, the 40, the 30, and the 20 yard over at the recycling center. So, they're they are um damaged and rusted
out from all wear and tear over years. Not the new ones that we just purchased. These are from the old ones and they had to get them replaced. >> Recycling ones. Yeah. No, I know. But how old are they? that I don't know. >> Okay. Something to consider to build
into the program. If if there's something that's old and the new ones are going to rust out figure it in the program. Don't come up and say we have no cost for this program. We don't have extra people. You got to pay extra people. You have to have the >> We don't have to pay extra people, Bill.
I don't know. >> We're not getting >> we're not get because you're not understanding this. We're not >> I think Pat had a good point for this for doing even a quarter. Pat trying it for a quarter. >> And that's a fair. So we need an ordinance. >> Yeah, I'll be >> you get commitment for I think six
months. But if you want to do a quarter, you do a quarter. >> I think we should try and collect see what how much we can collect in a quarter. How many members we can put? >> Well, yeah. You have to pay first, of course. Well, you you you could probably try to sign up people depending on if
the ordinance passes, then you'd collect money. If you get a commitment that way. >> Yeah. And then you have a start date. And >> I was going to say, how soon after would that start date be? >> Well, we you have to have the ordinance pass, then you have the second reading, and then you have the estoppel period, and then you have and then you pick a date. So, at this point, you know, we'll
do it in 2028. Um, >> you could also put a sunset if it if there's not a certain number of people. I could put a sunset in the ordinance so that automatically terminates. >> That gonna be helpful to a lot of people, but I noticed
>> I think of course you want to get rid. >> Yes. I just don't know why you you pressed the members of the council for the last two months and we've asked previously, you know, give us the numbers. Give us the numbers. Finally, we received the numbers. When I was
ready for the presentation, that's when I was Yes. Yeah. When I >> You're saying those numbers are valid and uh uh and we should go by them. You know, I never I don't recall you telling me that we're not hiring an individual.
>> I've stated it publicly, too. >> I I remember him saying that. Yes. could be wrong, but in any event, hiring an individual on, you know, along the lines of what's going to be needed, and I truly think that's going to happen, uh
I I would caution the council to remember this because placing one person on, you're looking at over $120,000. >> No. >> Yes. >> You added 20 grand on to that. >> No, you don't. You know, you there are other there are other costs that are
involved. What is an >> when you start putting on somebody when you start putting on somebody as a full-time basis, you have not only their salary, but their benefits >> that go with it and the insuranceances and all of those things plus your
payroll taxes. Your payroll taxes just don't go away. >> Well, we're already paying for those employees. I I >> No, not if you're adding another one. >> We're not adding another one. >> But if you do, >> if we do, it's always the >> go circle here. So what's an entry level
deep work start at Tina? >> Starting starting salary for labor 44 >> 44. >> Yeah. >> 2006. >> So not more than 80,000 then Pat. But it's still a lot. I agree with you. >> Would cost uh at an estimate of 48,000
um with pension FICA >> and then benefit you know I think these things all need to be t taken into consideration. the appropriate cost of if we do need to hire somebody, right? >> Repairs. >> I guess if we get to the point where it starts to not be a, you know, it starts
cost the town, right? >> Yeah. >> You can have a provision. Well, you know what? We're going to have to sunset it. So then you give the the people that are using the the um service a threemonth warning. Hey, you know what? We're going to have to stop it. It's not working
out. you give them an opportunity to find another service and you and you put a stop to it. You can put a provision like that into it when you when people sign up. If that's the case, you know, if it if it starts tipping the other way, you kind of >> There are many people in the township
that are ready, willing, and able >> put material in their car and drive to Lafayette and empty their car. >> But that's 45 minutes for me. >> Well, excuse me. Why should those dollars be used to support a program that they don't feel
they they need? >> I don't want to drive 45 minutes each way to drop garbage off. I want to drive 10 minutes. And there's a lot of people in my boat. Sorry. >> I agree. >> That's a cost of living in Highlands, which I live in Barry Lakes and have garbage pickup, but I would still I
would still sign up for this because we produce a lot of garbage in my household. So, >> but but what I said Pat though, so once if it gets to that tipping point where it's no longer feasible and it starts to become then not cost effective and not paying for itself and then it shifts to
then being a burden on the rest of the community, right? And like >> so so for example, if we were to put in a program for um you know taking care of uh some you know
taking care of afterchool children. >> That's different. You can't compare taking care of human beings garbage. I >> I'm not going to compare children to garbage. Nope. Not doing it. >> Not doing it. >> I'm not comparing children to garbage. >> Many people. >> How How about >> Just figure out the logistics.
>> How about paying for the community garden? >> I'm not going to pay for someone's garden. >> Well, you did already. You paid almost $20,000. >> Pay for that garden. Don't they pay for the plots? >> No. Yeah, they pay for the plots, but we have to supplement it. We've already supplemented that that garden by the
tune of about $20,000. >> Well, pay for the fence. >> Well, it's $20,000. >> Yes. >> Okay, >> that's the point I'm talking about. >> I want to make sure that this does not become a boondock >> and I think it will. >> I But you don't know that. I'm sorry.
>> Well, it's I don't think the way to find this out is to try it and then find out you have a failure. >> Well, we talked about it. do it >> an ordinance that made sense in getting >> interest gaining interest having people sign up saying it'll be available this date once the ordinance is passed >> yep
>> getting you know doing the signups after that it could be sunset if it's not feasible anymore >> but I think it needs to have a sunset with it I think there needs some uh endpoints on it how much has to be done what happens if in fact you don't get
that money that's necessary you're going the amount of money that's necessary for this program. Based upon mayor's calculations, we're looking at about uh 200 looking at uh
117 117 uh individuals. If these numbers were anywhere near what what I put down, you'd need almost three times that. you're going to need about 500 550 plus saying that you're taking this
information off of a uh a survey that was done over fi on 500 people. That's a small sample compared to the number of people who live in the community. >> And that works both ways. Potentially
plenty many more could sign up and that could add to our cost. It works both ways. >> That's right. But I think I think the way forward then is the ordinance we discussed. >> Well, I guess we're not going to be here, Jessica. So, >> I don't know. >> I guess I'm out,
>> right? Still, I don't know. You You figure it out. >> We'll get it done once we get the cost figures. Anything can happen. >> Should be done. Listen, I whatever politics aside, I I hear people snickering, whatever. And I'm going to say it because it's my second to last meeting. Just whatever your personal feelings are, think about the Wait,
wait. Think about the people of the town, right? The masses beneficial for them. >> I'm trying to keep the costs down. >> Yeah. Think about the people of the town. Exactly. Well, and I think having the provision to sunset it if it becomes a burden for the remainder of the taxpayers is logical and that's what I
was suggesting. >> But >> I give you a give you a potential possibility. Suppose there is a change in the management at Island Lakes and suppose they decide to replace to factor back into their dues the cost of of uh
garbage picking >> the sunset that we build in. >> Well then the sunset but meanwhile we're stuck with whatever people we've hired if we have to hire any. And >> that is hire them and don't hire them. Don't hire >> I know we're not hiring anybody right now but if we do get too busy and have
to hire that's >> don't hire them. There are just too many ifs. >> People >> I don't know. I I don't think there are too many people that would benefit from this program for us to just throw it away is is not feasible, I think. >> Yeah. There are people in this community
that saving that money is significant. You know, saving $500 a year, that's that's filling their oil tank. >> Yep. >> That's a month's worth of groceries. >> 45 minutes each way to scuba for some of us >> is is really valuable. And um
>> and there you'd be paying about $10 >> the fuel >> and time >> hours. Three hours. >> You know what? It depends though. It not everybody has that time. You have people that work long hours. They have children. >> They might not have that time.
>> I don't I don't like it. I hate going to school. It's terrible. >> I'm not going to tell you. >> I think they do a great job. >> Yeah, but it's so far. I hate driving there. >> 20 minutes drive. >> It's for you, Pat. You don't live in my house. I live 45 minutes away from school bus.
>> Okay. Can we wrap it? We we we identified some uh points my side. I need the cost figures. I'm I'm am in favor of doing whatever is good for the residents as long as we have the facts. We don't have the facts. The facts are available if we want to if we want to
bring them out. That that's we have that's the foundation to build any program. So this was a discussion point. We had a discussion. It wasn't a vote. I think we've kind of beat it up a little bit. It's time to uh
>> time to move on. I would think that we need more than that. that we also need a statement that the costs that we were given are these costs are within scope of uh a survey of the
people who are handling uh our financial interests right now until we receive a uh a new CFO. >> You received that firsthand from Denell. >> She was all for it. >> No, she was for the program. I don't
know about this particular you tell me you have her sign these numbers and we'll talk about it. I don't think she's going. As a matter of fact, if you listen to the tape and I listen to it last the last meeting
listen to it again. She never validated these numbers. She never validated these numbers. mayor. >> She doesn't. >> She I I you know what I said? Uh we we'll we'll circle back on this, but uh I said
this is not this is I I ask that you think of the taxpayers because you you've been on this campaign trail. You know people >> I'm not on my campaign trail. >> Not anymore. Maybe that's the reason why. >> No, I'm not on this campaign trail. Why shouldn't he be on the campaign trail
anymore? What I'm saying is when you ask people in this town, >> pay all these taxes. We don't even have garbage. And I get it that we're not going to have a trouble. >> That's right. Don't have garbage. Speaking >> and we've studied this prior to your in, you know, involvement in this township.
It was done once, not once, but twice. The numbers were abnormally high. The township is 70 square miles. It cannot be handled by the township. >> I'm not arguing here about about garbage pickup.
>> Maybe what you might want to think of is putting together some type of a program where we would have a garbage utility because there's no way of us continually being able to separate the cost on how
much this is going to cost. >> You want me to spend millions on trucks? >> No, I didn't say that. I said, "Give us a study on that. How much it's going to cost?" We made the study. The study was too expensive. So, why am I going to go
do another study? >> Oh, because you're the one that brought >> I'm not I'm not arguing here about about garbage trucks picking up 70 square miles. I'm talking about dropping garbage off. >> Something else on the numbers, please. We can move. >> Anyone else?
No. Close the May I have a motion to close the meeting to the public? >> It's the public meeting. >> I'm sorry. This is This is the >> May I have a motion to open the meeting to the public? >> Moved by Mr. Higgins. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Seconded by Mrs. Deanto. All in favor
signify by saying I >> I opposed. Motion carries. >> Meeting is now open to the public for anything that is on the agenda. >> You don't have to raise your hand. And you can >> and uh uh you're limited to three minutes. >> Come forward.
>> Yeah, just come forward. >> Put your name over here. >> Fight it out. >> Fight it out. Is that what you just said? >> That might happen. You better watch it. >> Come to the this one. >> Extensious. I've been having a meeting.
>> Confusing. >> My name is Vinnie Spiial. Um I want to tell a little bit about this um garbage program. >> Who are you first? identifiers help but yeah >> what's the address? >> Ah you came to my house >> just for the record. >> Um >> could you give me your address just for
>> 45 miles of every hollow road Sussex New Jersey. >> Great. Thank you. >> 61 lived in burning down here for 39 years. I'm owner of JB Hall and cleanouts. I do own the D solid waste license in the state. Um I've had this for years. Um my grandfather had a garbage company in Brooklyn as well as
in New Jersey. And um I know garbage. Okay. Unfortunately, and with all due respect, Pat, I've known you for years, okay? I'm sitting here listening to all you guys talk and I see I see a group of people that are trying to come up with a program that's going to benefit this township, try to help these residents
really don't know much about what they're talking about. And I apologize for that to say, >> you're probably right. You are right. >> And it's hard to try to get something going when you got people don't know the business, >> right? And do you really do you really think that somebody who's in the garbage business is going to help you take away their business? Listen, this isn't
taking away nothing from anybody. Come on. We got to be kidding. Back in 2005, I started working for the Department of Public Works. Okay? In three months that I was employed here, I noticed that the recycling center was being ran by a private company. You guys, this country was paying $85,000 to have somebody take
away our recycling. They were throwing us a bonus. That pissed me off, okay? Cuz that why is everybody around here making money on recycling and we're giving money away? Like there's a resation in the township, okay? And I projected, they asked me to work out numbers for them for that. I projected
that we would make a profit with recycling center in two years. A projection for two years. Hey, I was wrong. We made a profit in one year. We profit $55,000 the first year and didn't pay the $85,000 that we were paying a private company. Look at us. We're
looking good, right? Okay, Mr. Higgins, about that compact to contain. Okay, I understand what you're trying to say. I don't agree with you 100%. Let me explain why you guys cancelled all the garbage pickups from each individual the uh recycling. I mean all these places you cancel that and got compacted
container and decide we're going to bring all that into the compacted container. Right. Great idea. That was using your head. But what did you not think of? What do we do when that compactor breaks down? There's a part. They got to go to Michigan to get a part. It's on back order. Takes you a
week or two to turn around and get that part. What do you do with the garbage? Therefore, in an open container, especially in the summertime, it's going to stink. You're gonna have bears. A compacted containers are sealed containers. They don't leak. You're not going to have no problem with bears. Okay? So, to get an extra spare compact
was a genius idea just in case. I have a rolloff truck, right? I'm a small company. I could do with one. Other companies, they have rolloff trucks. They got to get a spare, right? What happens if it breaks down? How do you pick up the garbage? So the fact of having a spare compactor, whoever came up with that idea for whatever reason,
it may be a great idea. Pat, you talked about trying to get this thing started. Well, let's start with a quarter. Let's start getting started with like a quarter, three months, see what go sign up for anything for only a three months experiment. My recommendation, if you're going to get this thing started, right, let's start with a one year. Make a
people sign a contract for one year. This way they can decide on whether they like it. Is this going to work for them? And let me tell you something. This is going to work for the town. I'm going to tell you why. Okay. There's a lot of older people here that can't afford garbage service. There's a lot of older people that struggle driving to Lafayette.
>> I know even with me, if I lived up in High Lakes and I'm driving every day, every once a week to Lafayette and I could drive down here. >> Yep. >> To the recycling center, it's a no-brainer. >> Yep. >> I think this country would be surprised on to get this thing started. I I I
truly think that it's going to be something that would work. I think you got to take a little time. I think you guys have got to work together and keep the politics out of it and think about what's going to be good for the people. I have a neighbor, Howard Whitten, and some of you might know Howard Whitten. He was president of the high school for
a long, long time. Great man. He's 83 years old. Couldn't afford the garbage. They had cancelled it. >> Thank you. >> He would love to turn around and go to the My Time. >> Yeah, he can. >> You can come back later. >> Come back later for a second bite at the end. >> I apologize. And I also apologize
interrupting. I forgot. >> Ask members of the public to just try to keep it down a little bit. It's It's getting kind of distracting hearing from >> Hi, my name is Katherina Savasak. I live at 26 Brier Drive, Sussex, New Jersey, 07461.
I've lived here for over 30 years. I think this is a great idea. I think you need to do your homework. I need think that you should reach out to communities that have this program like Heritage Lakes. see what the problem um solving problem issues and what you can do to
solve them. But I also think that it's unfair to increase the workload by the amount of garbage that would come in on one employee. That's all I have to say. >> Thank you. >> How are you? Tom Karens, 26 Mor Road, 07462.
been a living here since 2007 and we've paid for waste management at a cost of about 300 a quarter. I would sign up now tonight for the cost a year. My wife has to load up five garbage dumpsters into
our trailer which she can't back up at Lafayette dump. So, I have to do it on my Saturday morning, which I don't mind doing, but once a month I go pay $10, drive all the way there, back the trailer up. She can't do any of that. So, to have an ability to put a couple bags in the back of the car to drive
downtown, and she could do that after she drops the kids off at school, that's a home run. I say we approve and get going. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um Pat Seager 22 Palamino Trail
Mr. Kate um I've lived here a long time and I think that Pat Rudo is on the right thing. You should start a utility because that has nothing to do with your budget and Mendum just did it started at October 1st and I think you should reach out to them to find out how they did it
because it doesn't go in your taxes and the taxpayers aren't paying for it. utilities self-sustained and that's the way you should go if you really want to prove this program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Great back Hickory Road 0742.
Members of the council, Mr. Mayor, um, few comments. I think first of all, I think it's commendable the township's exploring options to make garbage more affordable for all the all the township. >> Fortunately, the proposal before this evening appears to be more of an idea
the township is attempting to project as affordable rather than a list of options that may be. The proposal would provide garbage service and by entering the township directly into garbage the garbage collection business. As such, I do not believe a proper and and complete
due diligence has been performed. A question put forth on the township website answered by fewer than 5% of the households of which a significant portion of respondents said no is not a sufficient survey for such an unconventional undertaking.
Excuse me. Emphasis so far has been on how few participants need to start the project and some initiated some estimated initial costs. However, a larger study needs to be done to determine the project's full potential and what the upside parameters could be
should a large portion of the township choose to participate. In other words, what is the maximum volume of garbage the township could handle, including all administrative costs necessary to handle it. In addition, this program should not be implemented under the township's
operating budget, which is funded by taxpayer dollars. A garbage utility should be established so everything is properly monitored and accounted for, and rates can then be properly set and adjusted to cover the activity. Keeping a project like this under the township
budget has the potential of becoming a hidden tax increase to all taxpayers. In summary, I feel there are many questions in need of answers. I expect the council to aggressively follow up on this and ensure that they
are provided before any further actions are taken. >> Thank you for your time. Thank you. I'm Antonia Sherwin Ambutor, 23 Malibu Drive. I came to talk about the apartment buildings that I hear are
being proposed to be built in Vernon. I grew up in Vermont and you know, towns in Vermont fight fiercely against any kind of thing like this. I mean, we have town meetings and we fight over it. Very fight for the rural rural character of
the state. And I'm really disappointed because I've lived here for 25 years. And to think of multi-story apartment buildings coming up all over Vernon. It destroys the character of the the whole town. I mean, people come here to recreate. What are they going to come to
a place that looks like somewhere down below? I can't understand that. I mean, I what are our goals? And the other thing is we're talking about possibly raising um our costs for garbage collection or taking this on. How much is going to be has it been priced out
per um resident? How much are going to go up for schooling these new children that will come into the apartment buildings? Because it's what 20 to $25,000 per child to educate them. And I know that our taxes aren't going to be our taxes will be raised considerably. And I would just like to know, has
anyone figured that out based upon typically what is the mix of people who would come into such an apartment building? How many children would they typically have? Has that been done at all? >> Yep. As a >> matter of fact, questions that you raised, we had a an executive session
prior to this meeting with the redevelopment attorney and we are going to be having a meeting uh for second reading >> January 5th. January 5th. And please plan to attend if you'd like. And I will our attorney will be very to be very
upset. I don't feel like living here if they go up. I honestly don't. And I wonder how many people agree with me. We don't want this. Oh, thank you so much for listening. >> Stay over here so the people up there don't have to look at our backs. Kind of I don't know. Not great.
Anyway, good evening town council. Mr. Higgins, how are you? >> Well, Mr. Rudo, but I'm sorry. >> Dorine Edwards, 205 Opella Road, H Highle Lakes, New Jersey.
>> So, this evening I'm here to talk about what's on the agenda. Line 12, Ordinance 25-17, pilot financial agreement, the way to drive redevelop Renewal LLC with 30 years. Yes, 30 years.
I took the opportunity to review the financial agreement that is on the agenda tonight for vote on first reading. And may I take this opportunity to thank you on the town council for your work, especially when you have these huge documents, 157 pages to look
and review over in relatively a short time. I don't think it's fair to you, but unfortunately, I guess that happens from time to time. So, I am here tonight along with fellow Vernon citizens and taxpayers with questions and concerns about this agreement. I understand that
the state of New Jersey has put in place obligations for municipalities to meet in regards to affordable housing, each with their own responsibilities. Total, I think we're responsible for 194. I'm not 100% sure about that. While that I'm not opposed to redevelopment
and creating new housing stock in Vernon, I want it to make sense for Vernon. And I'm looking for sensible agreements which would be fair to Vernon taxpayers, especially when entering entering into a 30year tax abatement.
Most of us might be gone by then. So, we're going to leave it to our grandchildren and their children. and one should not cause a strain on our infrastructure services etc while not receiving specific compensate
compensation for saying so I am looking forward to hearing the council's indepth conversation about this agreement and the hard facts not the outlining facts the hard facts we as taxpayers deserve to be advised of I have sent an email to
the entire council in advance of tonight's meeting asking for information My email question was this. Has the town done the property assessment which is required by law on this long-term tax exemption with and without a pilot? And
what was the outcome? And now I'm just adding to that. How can I or get a copy of that report? Because that should have been done. So I hope that you will take my question and those of others about this topic with sincerity and interest
as written to do a very thoughtful and thorough review. So tonight I am asking therefore that the ordinance be tabled until next year which of course is only a few weeks away. You'll have a new council. Okay, a few new council people. I think it's only fair and right. Thank
you very much. Appreciate it. Good evening. Um, Andre Stalty, Vernon, New Jersey. When we talk about affordable housing, who is it affordable to? And are these going to be some subsidized apartments or such? And you
talk about that we have a very safe area now. We might be importing people, it might not stay. so safe, right? This this is a big problem. Just look all around the country. Affordable housing is one of these uh precursors to the
15minute cities things. If anybody's ever heard of that, Corey's Digs, it's a site. She does extensive writing on this. It's not something it's not part of the aesthetics here as the woman said, but we also don't know who we're importing here. I don't think it's for
Vernon. Sorry. >> Thank you. >> Good evening everyone. Sorry if I'm reading from my notes and not making eye contact. I've also timed this to be five minutes and recognize that this portion of the public comments is three minutes
and it's five minutes later. So, I'll try and be uh brief, so apologies for that. Uh my name is Kirk Stevens and I'm the farmer on Sanel Road as well as a descendant of one of Vernon's founding families from the 1700s. I'm generally a
very private person. I try and stay neutral in what can be a very political town at times. However, tonight I felt moved to speak up given some of the dement developmental proposals under consideration. There was once a time when farmers would sit on these boards and be a strong
voice for those interested in balancing development with our rural way of life. Thanks to their foresight and sacrifice, we are blessed to retain permanently preserved open space that helps Vernon Township keep its charm while many other communities succumb to extensive
development and congestion. Sadly, most of the farmers have died off and there are not many stepping up to carry the torch forward. In this moment, I find myself being called to step up and be that voice. With that said, I'm not anti-development.
I recognize the need for balance. I appreciate that extensive investments have already been made into infrastructure and with it the accompanying debts. I know that many of these proposals are years in the making and that the zoning protects them to some extent.
However, I am an advocate for quality over quantity and an advocate for redeveloping existing sites instead of breaking new ground. Today, as it stands, Vernon Township already has the highest stock of housing in the county, but among the lowest home
values in the region. During the last financial crisis, this over supply of housing created a boom bust profile that hit this community harder than others. Driving around the township, there were the telltale signs of economic distress
everywhere. Most notably were the abandoned and unkempt homes. Even a decade later, there was limited recovery. However, an interesting thing has happened over the last four years. For better or for worse, the movement of
people out of the cities due to COVID, coupled with greater prevalence of remote employment enabled by technology, coupled with inflationary forces, drove housing values back up. Abandoned and unkempt homes started to get renovated and occupied.
The ever important building cost per square foot versus home value per square foot had come back into balance. The community felt like it was strengthening again. Now, while this process is underway, it is by no means complete.
There is still extensive work needed across the community. There are still countless abandoned and underutilized spaces. Prices are still comparably low to the rest of the region. Any entry-level student of economics is
taught about supply and demand. adding supply faster than demand will depress prices. Now, perhaps in isolation, this 27 unit building won't move the needle. But when when coupled with all the other
applications pending, it starts to add up. I will try and be brief here. I'm almost done. It was widely reported this morning that in calendar year 2025, 52% of all homes in America went down in value. layer in the very real potential for a recession and things start to look a bit
shaky. The last building that went up didn't bother me so much as it was oriented around individuals of age 55 and up. However, I struggled to understand how giving this new proposal an 80% discount to their taxes while at the same time
not restricting school access can be economically positive given our per pupil cost. >> Excuse me. >> Yes, sir. >> Complete this at the end. Your time is up. >> Could I Could I please request >> Thank you. >> Run the two-minute extension.
>> No, you you'll have five minutes at the end of the meeting and you can complete this. Thank you. >> Okay. Yeah. I'm Heidi Lice. I live in Burnland and I want to talk about the garbage. Um, I think it was a great idea when I heard
about this because of the high price that I have to pay to have my garbage picked up. Um, I only have about two bags a week and um I would save quite a bit of money for sure. No doubt about it. And so I was looking forward to that
to go to the town and where I bring my recycling as well. And I notice when I'm there, whoever is there, usually it's one person. I sometimes I have to look for him because I'm not sure about metal. And he and and I see other people
and it's not really busy or crazy. And so all I do is I just put my cans in there and I put my paper there and then they're going to have a compactor for garbage. And I can take my bag, put it in the compartment or the container and my other bag if I had one. But I have
minimum garbage beside do what do you call it? Composting and recycling. But I'd save at least 60 70% of money if we had this for the town. And I commend the mayor for
what I understand using equipment we already had and to help the residents. And I think the citizens, most of the citizens in Verden are crying out for it because of the costs. >> And I I really hope that at least you give it a year and make your final
decision at that time. I think that's being reasonable because the majority of people would love to have a drop off recite uh drop off garbage in Vernon. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else wishing to speak?
Hi, good evening. Ann from the language section. I've been doing a lot of reading. I went over this uh financial agreement. I got notes everywhere. I bombarded a lot of you with questions. I had I still have even more questions. I sent some to Brad for not knowing that
he wasn't included coming tonight. So I would like to at least add a few more questions to my endless list. Okay. Uh sorry the farmer just stepped out because actually one of the things I wanted to mention was the disparity between the way the far the farmqualified properties are being
treated compared to the way the pilot program entity is being treated. From what I've read, there appears to be no exit fee for the for the entity to change their mind and no longer participate. If not, they don't have to
pay. Uh, hold on a second. No penalty for the termination. It says the township shall charge an administrative fee of 2% of the annual service charge due in the unit the transfer is requested for processing.
The annual service fee is 3,820. 2% of 38.20 is what we're going to charge and they're going to be allowed to sell this. Why aren't we doing what roll back taxes do for farm assessment? If a farmer changes hands and he sells his property, the next entity has to pay two
years of roll back taxes at the at the full freight taxes. So, these people are just going to be transferring amongst each other and keeping our 30-year pilot program, and there's no repercussions and no gains for the town. I don't know who is negotiating on the on the on the part of Vernon, but I I feel like our
team didn't show up there because there's a lot of things. There's a lot of money left on the table when you go through this. Uh furthermore, in another section, it mentions that the um the default by the entity as taxes are typically the first lean. Wouldn't a
pilot put put the township in a subsequent in a subsequent position for leans? So, they're just they're worried about paying the other the other uh investors. We'd be at the back of the list because we don't have a tax lean. These aren't taxes. And I feel like there's a lot of things that have fallen
through the cracks here and not been addressed. And I urge you to please read it thoroughly because I feel like there's a lot that could be to be beneficial to building, but we're not getting any of it. We're not seeing any and any turnover in our favor. Everything is very heavy for the builder
and not for the town. And that's got to get fixed. Thank you for your time. >> Anyone else wish for? I didn't come here to speak about this, but um since we're talking about name Harris Solomon, I've been in this town for 43 years. Very long time. We don't
need any new housing here. Mr. Mayor, we have 1,400 condominiums at Great Gorge Village that are falling apart. That is reasonable housing for a township of this size. You tell me why we need more. We have 1,400 condominiums that are
falling apart. The buildings are decrepit. There's no money in the reserve funds to fix this. Why do we need new housing here? I don't get it. I don't understand. People living full-time in this housing. This is not ski. This is not resort housing. Nowhere
near what it was advertised to this town. Are we going back to the 1980s again, Mr. Mayor? We don't need this housing. We don't need 20 homes. It's not going to make any difference in this town one way. We We don't need housing in front of the Acme. That's the craziest place, the craziest thing I've
ever heard. This could just be stopped. There's a lot of other things that need to be fixed in this town. And I don't know why the heck we're in the garbage business. That doesn't make any sense to me. We've got serious problems in this town. And now we're talking about getting in the garbage business. This shouldn't be the kind of stuff that we
should be fixing here in this town. We've got other things that have to be fixed first. And the main reason I came here, I'll address in the second part of this meeting. Thank you all. >> Thank you. Anyone else wishing to adjust the council? >> Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Mr. Town
Council President. Thank you. >> You've done before. I can try. Um, I've always been told by by teachers, be first to be last. Otherwise, you just get kind of lost in the shuffle. Our mayor recently referred to you as a liar
and somebody sat next to me with perfume and I've been sneezing like crazy. But I guess since we're calling people liars and I guess the mayor needs to go into that category as well. You referred to correspondence from the mayor to the
DPW in response. Mr. Higgins referred to similar to the same correspondence, but nobody read the correspondence. And I would challenge you guys before this meeting ends tonight to read that correspondence. The mayor said that he took the
compactor out of his budget because he wanted to get to a 0% budget. I don't think we ever got to 0%. I think we got to 7%. At the very next meeting after the budget was approved, he shows up with his bonding. And in the bonding was the
compactor. Mr. Hagen specifically asking, "Does this compactor have anything to do with household garbage?" No, nothing. Again, I'm going to challenge you guys to read that correspondence aloud tonight so people can hear it because
the mayor clearly states the reason for the compactor is household garbage. DPW says, "Don't do it." Well, it's there. Brad Spart has complained many times about on the agenda for things that were already done. The board of ed
does it all the time. He came in with a res with a resolution to approve the the paving of the pad. The pad was already done. So here we go. So November 28th, the mayor goes online where he calls you a
liar and he says that he envisions the garbage being five days a week. He originally said one late night. Then that evening he said food late nights. He said it'll be five days a week. Monday and Wednesday will be late evenings 2 to 8 and the others will be 7
to three. He said but recycling will continue to be six days a week as is. I said no it's not. It's four days a week. Well he must have misspoke. Then he posts tonight, this afternoon,
he posts and it would be that recycling six days a week. So I'm curious about a man putting together numbers for a plan when he doesn't even know how many hours people are there now. Currently recycling is
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. It's four days. It's not six days. He said it on his little screed that he did, his hourlong fireside chat, and he did it again in his message this
afternoon where he clearly states that it would be I've seen a couple go over, so I'm not I'm gonna ignore you for a couple minutes, Natalie. No, not a couple. >> That's me, Steve. But he clearly stated, "We will have two late evenings that
open five days a week for regular garbage and six days for recycling, which indicates that he's going to need more people." Right now, there's one person there. They have to make sure that aluminum the and the tin are separated. He has to make sure they're not putting the wrong things in a recycling bin. Now they're going to do
that end >> go to the other end of the yard to handle the garbage. I don't see how it's possible. >> Is it possible for you please to come? >> I'm going to wrap up finally to talk about your pilot. He says it's going to generate and I don't this may be coming from the builders and he just may be
regurgitating what they said 1.25 million that it's going to bring in annually. That's 27 apartments. That's $46,000 a month. I don't see how that ever happens. He says it's going to bring in $235 in taxes and other revenues. What
are those other revenues? And lastly, he says there'll be 14 full-time jobs after the construction is completed. >> How could you possibly need 14 full-time employees on a 27 unit apartment building?
>> Excuse me. >> I think the mayor makes these numbers up and hopes that people are just going to go along with it. And I hope you guys are paying attention. And I would challenge one of you guys because I know you both mentioned it tonight. Please read the correspondence where the mayor
lied to this council and said that the bonding for that machine had nothing to do with garbage. It's not true. Thank you. Thank you. >> Good evening. I um also >> sent a number of questions, council
members, >> your name, >> Jesse Paladini. I'm so sorry. Um but a number of them have already been asked, so I'm going to bypass that. Um what I would like to know is how will the municipality ensure that the
developer is in compliant with the financial agreement of the six units in the building that will be affordable? What is the makeup of the bedrooms for them? Will it be two twobedroom, three threebedroom? Um, please, if you could
answer that question. What specific community enhancements or public improvements will be negotiated? Has there been a set aside agreement? What income levels, AMI percentage is
this pilot targeting? All of this just seems to be so rushed. Now, I'm going to address the elephant in the room that few people have addressed, and that is the school children. I thought I heard the number $10,000.
The cost per student in Vernon is about $25,000. I call this double jeopardy. I'm not against redevelopment. I'm not against housing, but I am against giving pilots to apartment
buildings. I don't have a problem with pilots for commercial development. But giving apartment building developers pilots is double jeopardy because we the taxpayers are going to pick up the taxes
for the school children. Consider your school bill like a pie and you're dividing that pie by the number of taxpayers. Well, now the developers are not paying school taxes. So, we get a bigger piece
of the pie. And what scares me to death is that I keep hearing that there are going to be 11 such projects coming into Vernon. We're now on number three. Please, dear
God, please don't set a bad bad precedent for our town because if these apartment projects come in, you will change the entire face of Vernon Township. Thank you.
>> Thank you. else wishing to speak to the council. Not may I have a motion to close the vote moved by Mr. Sickens. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Seconded by Mrs. Pier. All in favor signify by saying I.
>> I. >> Motion carries. Um just as a point of information I want to clarify something earlier I mentioned that at our next meeting we would have our redevelopment
attorney here who would be able to answer some questions. However, please note that the questions that he will be answering will be on the pilot program only. The actual facility, the construction and the cosmetics of it, uh
the architecture, those decisions have already been made. Uh the uh the uh land the land uh land use board approval was made on uh August
27th of this year. And if that was the time or prior to that for individuals to have made their appeal or comments to the land use board, if it wasn't done then, what we're talking about now are
simply the uh the this the issues of particular interest. In this case, it's the uh the uh pilot program. And there's so much on the pilot program that can be talked about. Uh, I thought about
answering some of these questions. Uh, but I think the best thing to do is to allow the attorney to do it, not me. Uh, I can tell you a couple of things. First, I've heard from people who said, "We're not going to get any tax money."
You're right. You're not going to get any tax money from these facilities. What you are going to get is a guaranteed payment every month. It's called a payment in lie of taxes. Now, you're also going to
probably say, well, it's going to be lower than this and it's not going to be as much. Not necessarily so. Because during the course of that particular agreement, there will be the opportunity, they're called resetting
dates where the actual amount of money that the township will receive based upon the agreement will be reset. And that's pro I think about every three, four or five years. And I I'd have to go
through the the amortiz I'm sorry >> the you know the amortization schedule here before you would uh I'd have to get it to you and I can barely read it with these glasses on. So but I think that's where you would want to come and maybe take some time and sit with the
attorney. It'll be at 7 o'clock in the evening six o'clock. I'm sorry. We made it earlier to allow for a little bit more time. So, uh, thank you. >> What day? >> January 5th.
>> January 5th, Monday. >> 50. >> Sorry. 05. That's the 5th. Our regular meeting dateth, >> right? >> What's that?
>> Thank you. If you want a comment just make I just like to make a quick comment. I I it seems like a lot of people are upset that this is this is happening but this was part of the and this is accepted through the master plan that was done
back in 1995 and then was amended in 2022 um for this type of this is not something new. It's new, but but this is something that's been approved to to go and and
tell the developer, no, uh we're going to we're going to be in court, >> and I can guarantee you we will lose and they will we will spend a ton of money on litigation and we we end up having to do it anyway. So, I
said I it's this something that was is part of the master plan. I suggest that you look at it. um this type of construction is accepted. >> Thank you. >> Uh are you going?
>> No. Sorry. Like I'm still freezing. Thank you. >> Uh may all members of the of the uh council have received copy of the bills list. Uh is there any comments on that?
>> No. Pat, the only two comments are the same ones we had when we talking about the compactor. >> Thank you. Anyone else have any comments? No. Thank you. I have uh all members of the council have received
minutes of the executive session of November 10th. Have those on the floor to for approval. >> Move second. >> Moved by Mr. Hickkins and seconded by
Miss Bucheri. >> Mrs. Mrs. Beri. Um, is there any one wishing to provide information or ask for a change or alteration or anything?
>> Not. May I have a motion to approve? >> I'm sorry. A vote, please. >> All in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> Excuse me, council president. I'm going to take a roll call. Okay. Okay. >> Council member Bushieri. >> Yes. >> Member Denetto.
>> Yes. >> Council member Higgins. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> May I have a motion to approve the November 10th regular meeting? >> Moved by Mr. Higgins. Is there a second?
>> Second. >> Seconded by Mrs. Debadetto. Any additions, corrections? deletions on that. I'm seeing the smack on the back of the hand that I got from my clerk. Yes. For a >> roll call, please. >> Bushi.
>> Yes. Council member Genado. >> Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And moving to our regular meeting of November 24th.
May I have a motion? May I have on the floor for consideration? >> No. >> Mrs. De Benadetto, is there a second? >> Second. >> Seconded by a roll call, please. >> Yes. >> Benadetto.
>> Yes. >> Yes. >> President Rudo. >> Yes. And before I move to my consent agenda, move and uh take a few moments to recognize two people who I have great
respect for and who will be leaving us this uh the end of this uh I think these pe I think these young ladies will tell you that it's not easy to serve on council. There's a lot
of commitment. There's a lot of commitment and indeed >> they receive very little recognition if anything. So, uh, >> a thank you Pat >> for the council looking at this to Mrs.
Natalie Bucheri in grateful appreciation for your dedication and service to the township of Vernon residents as a member of the township council and uh, >> to Mrs. Jessica de Benadetto in grateful
appreciation for your dedication and service to the township of Vernon and residents as a member of the township council. >> Frequently we sit here and we wonder does anyone really notice and I think people really do. I think some happen.
Sometimes it happens that we forget why we're here. And it's uh my place and I hopefully I've done it to to remind people that you're here to make decisions and sometimes these decisions are difficult and may not be popular. But I do know that you all work for the
benefit of the community as we all do and it's just a matter of being able to kind of uh get this across to the public. >> I appreciate working with you. You've been pleasant. You've been helpful. And by God, you've been a done a good job
for the community. >> Thank you. I noticed you looked at Natalie when you said pleasant. >> No, you've always been pleasant. Your sister may not have been. >> Here we are. >> Oh, welcome. >> This is You're quite welcome.
>> Appreciate that. Very nice. Thank you >> so much. So nice. Okay, buddy. Are my hands freezing? >> Yes, they're cold. >> I'm freezing. >> Cold hands, warm heart. >> There you go. >> Um, >> can I
>> can I can I ask you to come down to the >> Oh, picture with my friend. >> I know. >> Might freeze while >> 25. >> Oh, it's Brad's not here. Oh, Bradley,
>> I would save it if it the last meeting. >> Oh, well, I thought this was my last meeting. Oh, I guess I got to come back. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Yes. Moving to our consent agenda.
Uh there are uh Looking at the items here, if anyone would like to have any of these items separated for to be voted on separately, please let me know. Otherwise, I will
ask you, is there any reason why I should not cast these all have these all cast? >> Yeah, I'd like to pull some couple out, too. >> Five, six, seven, eight, 10, and 11. >> Okay.
>> Really? I'll tell you, we'll read them one by one. >> Oh my god. >> Resolution 25-304. Resolution of the Township of Vernon, County of Sussex, State of New Jersey,
awarding bid number 205, I'm sorry, 2025, DPW Flooring Services. May I have a motion to place this on the floor? >> Moved by Mr. Higgins. Is there a second? >> Second by any questions or comments on
this >> hearing? None. May I have a roll call, please? >> Bushier. >> Yes. Council >> member. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Resolution 25-305, transfer resolution,
balance transfers. Um, may I have a motion to place this on the floor for consideration? moved by Mr. Higgins. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Seconded by Mrs. De Benadetto. Uh any questions or comments on this? >> Yeah, comments are and this is basically for the audience. This starts the
process of the budget budget season. So what this is is a resolution to approve transfers from one account to another account. These things can happen over budget or you underbudget. And if you overbudget, then you have a higher budget than what you usually need and
you have to watch all these different items. So my question on this, we're putting $90,000 from three accounts into seven different accounts. And I just like a little explanation of is this overbudgeting where we're transferring
them to put them into an account that was under budgeted or how how what's the explanation? >> I can't answer that. I would have to talk to uh the CFO. >> Okay. So, maybe we put that on for the
next meeting. >> If you do, then all of these will not get paid. >> All what? >> If you if you do not approve this, then these balances won't go through and
these items here will not get paid. >> I have no problem approving it if I get an explanation. If if I knew prior to this meeting, I could have come in with an explanation for you, but I didn't know that you were going to question. >> Fine if you do next meeting just so we
get an explanation. We'll get >> Yeah. So, we'll approve it. >> We'll approve it. I just like to make sure that we get an explanation. >> It's whenever people budget there, there's always >> some things that are done year after year that can be improved upon. And if
there's things that occurred this year that we can say next year a good way of looking at that's for the sake of the public the reason why these transfers come up and uh I believe it's also with the
board of education my experience there uh there's a period of time in the year and it starts in Jan I'm sorry in November and goes for I believe three months where the uh where the uh
administration is able to refoot their bills. In other words, they go through their their budget pro their budgets and they start looking at the uh line items that have significant amounts of money in. Why would you say they have
significant amounts of money? could be simple is that you know they e they put together a a an estimate of x number of thousands of dollars for plowing and we don't have any we didn't have any snow sanding or anything. So we have an
accumulation of money in that particular uh line item. So we are short then in a particular item. Maybe we spent too much money on cutting you know grass and uh uh things like that. So uh we're we're
over uh in the in overtime costs for labor in in that particular area. So we'll transfer from that area to the other area and it kind of balances things out. Remember this is a budget.
It's not a scientific you know uh synchronization of your funds. It's simply an estimation based upon past use and expectation. One of the things that we've been fortunate to avoid the last few weeks,
we've had a lot of cold weather, but not too much in the way of uh any weather where we've had to dispatch our trucks in Sanders. So, these are the this is the reason why we have it. Uh Mr. Higgins is right to ask for this type of
information. It allows us to uh see what's going on and it helps us in our budgeting process which will be beginning very very shortly. As a matter of fact, we've already asked for dates certain to meet with the mayor and the
department heads so that we can begin to uh learn from them where their particular needs are for this coming year. And I'm hopeful that we will be able to get a positive response on that very soon. Um, so, um,
with that in mind, uh, may I call for a roll call? >> Yes. >> Council member, >> yes. >> Council member D. Benadetto, >> yes. >> Council member Higgins, >> yes. >> Council President Rudo, >> yes. Motion carries.
>> Uh, transfer resolution appointing a fund, I'm sorry, resolution appointing a a fund commissioner. Uh, resolution 25-306. Um, any
>> simply a question. I see Tina and Irene as the two people who are fund administrators, commissioners. I I don't know what it means. Could you just explain it to us? >> So, we're part of a statewide insurance. Um, and they need
two people, like a person and then an alternate to be able to attend the meetings to learn about what's going on with the insurance company. Um, and they need a resolution passed by you guys authorizing who those two people are.
So, when we do attend the meetings, um, we're actually authorized to be at those meetings. >> And you vote >> and we vote. So when certain when when a certain claim comes up, they either say no or yes, >> they they set the budget. So it it kind
of helps the insurance for the town. >> No, it's an important position. >> That's I'm glad I asked. I understand that. >> Roll call. >> We We need a um a motion and a second. >> I'm sorry. Oh, roll call.
>> Yes. Roll call. >> Yes. >> Need a motion? Yes. Motion to approve. >> Motion to approve. Um made by Mr. Higgins. >> Yes. >> Seconded. >> Second. >> Second by Mrs. Bucher. Roll call. Council >> member.
>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Member Higgins. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Resolution 25-307, a resolution of funding a risk management cons. Have a motion to place this on the floor. I'll
>> make that motion. Moved >> by Mr. Shiri. Is there a second? Second. >> Seconded by Mrs. Benadto. Anyh questions or comments on this? >> Question on this. Is this a consultant that we hire every year or goes out for bid every year or is automatically renewed every year?
>> This one um statewide insurance we have another year with them on the contract. So, they have um at the end of 2026, they will have to be brought back up if we want to keep them or or not. So,
that's why you're seeing this ahead of time because we already have a contract with them until the end of next year. >> So, this is like a year's out. We're putting it on now for next year. >> No. So, the it's the same thing with the fund commissioner. they are done with
their um time frame you know at the end of this at the end of December. So they have to get all their resolutions approved for next year. So, we need to get the approval to um actually have a risk management consultant with
statewide insurance and our comp our contract with statewide insurance goes through 20126. But they need the resolution for their risk management every year through our town. >> So, it's another one. If we vote no, we get sued. We end up in court, right?
>> Because our contract is >> contract with them. And what the risk manager does, it looks at your risks for the town insurance, >> right? Is that risk management consultant for renewal every year is my >> No, we have a two-year deal.
>> Uh this one I I think we were three years with them. >> We got one more year on the contract. >> We have one more year 2026. at the end of next year then we would have to consider f either staying with them and renewing our contract with them or going for a new contract for the risk
management. >> Okay. So the same thing goes with both of these consultants the risk management and the fund manager. >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. So it's it's already done and we just have to officially approach her. >> Right. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Thank you. Any other questions?
>> Not roll. Motion to council member. >> Yes. >> Council member. >> Yes. >> Council member Higgin. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Resolution 25-308. A resolution authorizing leasing of certain vehicles for the Department of Public Works
through Sourcewell National Cooperative number 06618-E FM through Enterprise Fleet Management Services. Quote number 9387254. May I have a motion to place this on the
floor consideration? Moved by Mr. Higgins. Is it second? >> Second. Seconded by Mrs. De Benadeno. What I have a question on this. What kind of vehicles are we looking at here? >> The Ford F350.
>> Okay. >> On there 26 F 350. >> Thank you. Um, anyone else? >> Yeah. My questions are we we constantly consistently use Enterprise as our rental company for our town vehicles. So,
>> policing. Yes. >> All the rest. So, first question, >> do they have any competition? Are there other manufacturers or other leasing companies that uh compete for the business here? >> Well, they have a a co-op with us, so we don't we don't have to go out to bid for
that. >> Well, you're you're using Sourcewell as a cooperative, >> right? >> And so, the way it works is if Enterprise has its system to lease, that's fine. And if they have the option of having their own contract or if they
don't then they have to use yet another contract in this case source well. Sourcewell is the vehicle the the leasing vehicle that adds about 14% to your leasing cost because enterprise has to pay source well source well we end up paying. So the question is does Ford
leasing enterprise leasing hurts leasing does anybody ever contact you for other quotes? Is there anybody else looking for our business or is it automatically enterprise and source? Well, >> we have been dealing with enterprise for years and not to my knowledge that no
other company has come out to us to to uh lease our vehicles. >> Okay. My suggestion would be in the next 12 months put it out and let other leasing companies know that we're here. And that's how that's how you save money. other if if no one else knows, no
one else is going to even offer their services. There's a good salesman from uh purse leasing, he should be knocking on your door. If he isn't, then you put it out the bid because we're paying using the source well contract. That's how it works.
>> It's a way of saving money. >> Is source well part of the state approved contract? >> They're a national they're a national. So >> having worked with um with the state contracts uh essentially
what's happened here is the state assumes a lot of the the work to be done in terms of clearing and coming up with the lowest price bills so the township doesn't have to work with it. It would be surprising in my mind if we were able
to get much of anything if anything on uh >> those types of bids, but it's uh might be worth an effort. Uh anyone hearing anything? Any other comments? >> No, I'm just hoping that we do that.
>> If you need any direction on doing that, I've had background. I can help you. I know Brad said he was going to vote no on anything we didn't do that with. >> Yeah. Yeah. Excuse me. >> Yes. >> Council member Deanto. >> Yes. >> Council member Higgins.
>> Yes. >> Brazo. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> Resolution 25-309. Resolution rejecting all bids for bid number 7R-2025. opposed docahedron
gazbo at the Maple Range Park. I have a motion to place this on the agenda. >> I'll make that motion. >> Motion made by Mrs. Seconded by Mr. Deenadto. Any questions or comments? Um,
how much are the other the earlier bids coming in? >> Some of them are uh well over 100,000 I believe. >> 130,000. >> Yeah. >> And this is for programs that are being funded by
>> So this was the uh recreational grant that we received. Um we got a quote from from company actually um for much less. However, when when we went out to bid um these these other companies, you know,
bidded on it, which was far more than what we got originally got a quote for. Therefore, we reject those. This is the the whole reason for this that we reject those bids because obviously we don't want to money. Um and then we bring them all back to the table and say, "Well, we
got, you know, a quote for this, you know, and and that that allows us to start negotiating um with them to to come at least >> close. What was the >> 75,000? >> I thought that was 75,000." Okay.
>> Resolution. Can I have a roll call, please? >> Council member Bushier. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Council President Rudo. >> Yes. >> Resolution 25-310.
Resolution authorizing negotiations for proposed docahedron gazbo at Maple Graange Park under NJSA4 AOL 11-5 uh 3.
>> I'll make >> I have a mo may I have this in a mo uh request for a motion? I'll make the motion. >> Motion made by Mrs. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Mrs. De Benadetto. >> Um, any comments on this questions?
>> Yes. So, we just rejected three bids because they were over the 75,000. So, this proposal is to go back to those three people. >> Yes. >> And get them down under the 75 or >> Yeah. Get them close to Yeah. Much because I think we got a quote that was much less than 75,000.
>> But who are doing all the work? Yeah, they weren't right. They weren't even doing all the work. So, um, so yeah, >> it up to anybody who didn't bid or only the three biders. >> Um, well, like he said, it goes out through a QP agent goes out and then
these to the three. But we may even we >> we had another bid we rejected. >> We did. So, he he can go out to all of them. >> All the other one we rejected. Yes. Okay. Um, so what this does again like it it we get those prices and then this will allow us to
>> want to negotiate. >> Yes. And then so 309 310 is kind of like it's two-part but allows us to go back and negotiate and say hey you got to negotiate the price and then at that point we can then uh agree to go with
the lower the lower bidder the lower boat that we got which is really good that we we have that option in place because if we had to just take that >> sharpen your negotiating skills for our next garbage.
>> Yeah. >> Well, again, this is all through the QPA agent. So, uh have to take their uh you know, their guidance. >> Good. Good luck. >> Thank you. >> Excuse me just a second.
Just need a roll call on that. >> Roll call, please. >> Council member, >> yes. >> Council member Dero, >> yes. >> Council member Higgins, >> yes. >> Council President Rudo, >> yes. >> Carries. Resolution 25-
311, a resolution appointments to the Vernon Township Municipal Utility Authority. Um, for seat number seat three, an unexpired term expiring uh 131-2027
for Ed D. Young, seat three. May I have a motion? >> Are we voting on each each uh >> Yes. >> thing separately? >> Yep. Unless you like to make them all at once. Well, no. I have questions about it. So, >> this is one of the ones we had questions on. All >> right.
>> So, I I understand we've received other um inquiries or applications for this. So, I'm just wondering why um we don't get a chance to look at all the applications. Why just these three?
>> These other right here you're looking at. >> I understand there's been other applications in addition to these. >> There's only one other one. Okay. And >> I chose not to put it on because I wanted to discuss it further. Okay. >> How could we discuss it if we don't know what's here? >> Well, I need needed to talk to the
people on the MUA. >> But then if we're going to appoint them, how could we discuss to appoint them if >> then you'll discuss it after? >> How could we discuss it if they're already appointed? >> Either Well, listen. the I'm looking to appoint people on that
board that have had some experience in in uh this type of area this area of >> okay >> require you know expertise. >> I'm not saying these people don't have good experience. I'm not putting I'm not there's nothing against the the people
that are are you know on the on the um resolution. >> Um but you're you're looking to do that. But what about the rest of the council's opinions? >> I haven't I haven't had a chance to discuss it with you and I didn't have I I just didn't want to you know
>> you didn't want to. >> Well, I think that kind of leaves us out of the opportunity to review since it's a council appointment, right? For the full council. >> Yeah. >> I'd like to table this >> motion to table. We have a roll call,
please. >> Was there a second? Second. Council member Bushier. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Council >> no. >> And I'd like to make a comment that it
is not a reflection on any one of these people on this resolution. It is uh simply because we were not made aware of all the applications for this seat. >> Thank you. Um section of an ordinance number 12
ordinance 25-17 ordinance of the township of Bergen County of Sussex, New Jersey, approving the application for a long-term tax exemption and authorizing the execution and financial agreement with
drive redevelopment. I have a motion to produce this 25-7. >> I'll make that motion. >> Motion made by Mrs. Mrs. Bucheri. Is there a second? >> Second. Seconded by Mr. Higgins.
>> Roll call, please. >> Yes. member. >> This is to approve the ordinance. >> No, this is for first reading. >> Okay. Sorry. >> Yes. >> And the second reading will be January 5th
>> at 6 o'clock. That's when there will be attorney. There'll be a financial plan a planner who put the financial plan together to answer any questions that the U public has. and the opportunity for public comment.
>> May I have a motion to open the floor to the public? >> I'll make that motion. >> Thank you. Made by Mrs. Genado. Is there I'm sorry, Mrs. Bucher. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mrs. Dubenetto. Uh all in favor all in favor signify by
saying I >> I opposed. Motion carries. Meeting meeting is available for open for questions for the public on any item they wish to >> Dorian Edwards. Five minutes.
>> Thank you Dorian Edwards. Silent Lakes. Um on the ordinance 25-17 I'd like to ask here and now Mr. Mudo as the president of the town council, can I get that information that I asked for
prior to the January 6th meeting? And in my email, I had asked specifically because I don't want to go to that meeting and I don't want to be fear-mongered. I don't want to be fluffed, you know, with bare answers. I want finepoint answers because there's a
lot of issues. I don't know who was in the room when this agreement was made up. If it was just the developers attorneys and if they're very knowledgeable and we've been doing this for many years, there's a lot of things that should be looked over. I think
Vernon needs to get a little tougher when it comes to this. My question, which I want an answer for, please prior and I wouldn't mind that um uh table of contents that you had with how many years and how much we're supposed to get. All right. Forization schedule.
>> I appreciate that. You have that email. >> It's on the site. Yeah, that's coming to you and >> you the whole packet. >> She did, but I don't think that was in it. Not what Pat had. >> I >> I didn't see that. So, every year it's going to say specifically look like a
table that you had. >> Yeah, >> I didn't see it. >> Very small print. Dur. >> It's on the >> Yeah. And it's also the whole packet's on the agenda. >> I know. I know. And I that that's how I've been looking at it. Trust me, I know more about freaking pilots than I
ever want to again in my lifetime. We do have a specialized. >> It is a life situation here for people. >> Yeah. >> Why would you give a pilot on the 27 building, 27 apartment building? It's not even condos. It's renters. It's you
can meet obligations, but there's other ways to meet obligations. And I just don't understand it. So, has the town done the property assessment which is required by the law on this long-term exemption with without a pilot? And what
was the outcome? I like to see that >> that's included in the material sent to you. >> Can you can you tell me what page that is or I could contact you? >> What page it is, but >> it's on the last page. >> You could send it over. It's not in there. >> No, I I think that's the only way you're gonna go.
>> Yeah. Pass the point with the opra and all that. I just, you know, it it this has been something that um again I I feel see how you guys are operating tonight and you couldn't, you know, couldn't get the figures on the garbage hauler. And that's how sometimes the
public feels that we're just getting fluff and not hardcore answers. And I don't want to come to that meeting on January 6 and get that from that attorney. I don't want to. And our taxpayers deserve better. >> Excuse me.
This is the amortization schedule. Okay. And on this schedule, they project how much is paid by the uh using the conventional method of taxation. >> Okay. >> Versus the payment in lie of taxes,
>> right? >> The township will gain $3.8 8 million more in taxes by using the pilot program. >> You have to compare it to what we're not getting in the school uh fees. The
school >> the town here regarding the schools. The township is required by law to present to the school whatever monies they ask to be
given. In other words, if they come to the to the uh to the >> municipal building >> municipal building in a meeting or whatever or even send to the the mayor and his you know his uh his associates they need another million and a half
dollars that million and a half dollars has to be given to the board of education. >> Don't you ask to see why specifically it's >> Shouldn't you be asking? >> No, you can't. That's that's not the way it works. >> That works. It works because the board
says this is what we need. We are empowered to do so and we want that money. >> Well, that's even scary. >> Yeah, it is. And if if >> run for BOE >> if we uh they are told we can't get that
much because we our borrowing is so bad or whatever we can't do it. They can go out and borrow the money. my head. Excuse me. And then that cost of that transaction, that borrowing is is laid
on the township. >> They are totally covered on this. Secondly, what you've heard a number of times, Biggins has made quite quite, you know, brought it out. I've I've agreed
with it. We have the township uh uh eliminates taxes ask, you know, just phases taxes out on 100% disabled. I understand have a senior free. So that's why somebody
alluded to bigger pie, less people putting in, >> right? So the people that aren't going to be paying for those that you that veterans home that has to be spread around all of the town. >> Exactly.
>> Excuse me. >> Excuse me. Excuse me. The board of education does not participate in when we give that money to the board that money comes from here 100% as requested.
>> Right. Right. I know that. But when we have to provide a uh to cover what is not being made up because of this you know this transaction we we have to accept it and pay 100%. So
so the the board of education gets its piece but it never has to pay anything back. Do you remember years ago when the board of education was so surprised that the town people didn't approve their budget and they were like well that was like the first time that happened in
years and we made them try to be more responsible. I understand what you're saying but I understand this though. Yes, we have to, you know, according to the state and there's a lot of municipalities now. First it started with 27, now I think it's 50ome that are saying no, New Jersey is overdoing their
hand with this redevelopment issue and states and and municipalities are suing them and going to court. I don't like the fear-mongering saying, "Well, we're going to get sued. We're going to get sued." >> I don't know. I don't know who's done that. Okay. Because >> the mayor just got a recent um email
with about 200 other mayors on it about um similar. Yes, there's continual action being moved in Trenton to allow for some type of funding to cover what townships are losing, but they haven't
stepped forward. I've been at meetings and I've made the request to see who is going to cover this type of loss because right now it's coming up on almost $800,000 if not more that has to be
spread around to the rest of the township to cover what those particular uh >> shortfalls are are being asked to >> No, I understand. But please tell whoever comes there we don't want fluff
answers. We don't want the fine just around the that we want hard facts. You could do that with AI. You could do with a lot of things. You know we did an example. I think Ann had sent something because she about
over and over in another thing where they never had a pilot and if you look at the taxes amount of taxes that they collect, we're not going to be coming out so great. >> I think this that's it. Thank you. >> I'll get I'll get it from second. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, I'm tired and it's been a long
night. Thank you for >> Tired, too. Sorry. Thank you. >> Thank you, ma'am. >> So, as I said before, my name is Harris Solomon. I'm a television and film producer in New York City. Sorry. >> My name is Harris Solomon. >> I'm a television and film producer in
New York City. We have a major television series coming out next year. And we also started doing a documentary for Netflix about the old Playboy that uh sadly was canceled. >> But I'm here this evening because I was the former chairman of the HBC
um that uh I was uh I was part of and some shameful behavior on behalf of the person who's sitting in that chair over there. And I think the people in this town, >> right, >> I think the people in this town and the people on this board need to know what's going on here. As I say, I've been here
for 43 years starting in 1983, 1982. Um, I've never been involved in local politics before. I probably won't be involved in local politics going forward. But this is something that the people on this board and the people on this town need to know. There is a
cancer eating in this town. There is a cancer eating at this town and it's coming from this table over here. Okay. The mayor called me up. I was the I was the former chair of the HBC. The mayor called me up this fall and he said, "If
you don't quit, if you don't quit from the HPC, I'm going to close the commission as a threat." Okay? He called me up in the afternoon, unsolicited phone call. He said, "If you don't quit, if you don't resign from the
HPC, I am going to shut down the commission." Okay? Since then, there have been no HPC meetings for eight months. Eight months. There have been no HPC meetings for no good reason.
I called the Sussex County Prosecutor's Office, Mr. Mayor, and I told them what happened. I told them what happened. How you threatened me on the telephone. And not only did you threaten me on the telephone, you threatened me on that Facebook page that you have.
>> Okay. >> Be directed to the council. Okay. And and not only did he threaten me on that Facebook page that we have, okay, he said to me on the phone that I cannot have anybody on the HPC who is a friend
or or is somehow connected to Jesse Peladini. He said to me on the phone, "Anybody who is connected with Jesse Paladini and she is a cordial friend of mine cannot be on the board." What is happening in this
town? Okay, have you seen some of the stuff on his Facebook page? He posts in various different names, Billy Morris. Who the hell knows who these people are? Pictures of of people of poor Jesse over here. Is this the behavior that we can
have in a township like this? Shame on this man. Shame on this township. Why are you smirking? >> Excuse me. Can you >> please direct your comments here? and and and I would ask that you we moderate the >> right issue. >> I don't have much time here.
>> Okay. Yeah. >> But I just want everybody in this board in this town to know that he called me up. He called me up. Okay. And he says if you don't quit the HBC I will shut it down because I cannot have anybody
associated with Jesse Paladini on that board. And then he went and and then he went further by posting pictures and and all kinds of insults on his website. This is not the kind of action that we serve in this town. I've been here for
43 years. It was always screwed up, but not like this. This is not right behavior. And if you're going to stand for it, okay, then you stand for nothing. Okay? I don't care about the garbage plan. I don't care about anything else. It comes from the top. Nobody can insult anybody on a Facebook
page or an Instagram page using I don't know how many crazy names. >> Excuse me. >> That's not right. >> I know it. And neither is that type of land. >> I know. And I'm wrong and I apologize. >> I'm wrong and I apologize, but this is wrong. I devoted my time to the HBC to
try to make this a better town. We have not met in eight months. Okay? Not met in eight months. I think all of this is part of what's going on with the Legends Hotel. If you want, I can go into detail. I can tell you what happened. This is a scandal in this town. Maybe you don't care, but I know what
happened. Okay. The mayor told me that I could not present the HBC for the history designation that I wanted to. He warned me. He said, "Don't do it." Okay. I spoke to Charles Everheart, who was uh
the buyer of the Playboy Hotel. I told him that I was going to present it in spite of the mayor's request. Okay? And then they voted me out of office. They voted me out of office and they shut down the designation for that property.
I believe all of that was done with the mayor's consent. This is a cancer that is eating in this town. This is not the behavior that we need here. And somebody has to say something. The people in this townm for God's sakes.
>> Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. >> Make a comment. That's that's hearsay. And you're using you're claiming you're claiming that made I have these accounts comment after his time. >> His time is up.
>> And he has no opportunity to respond. I'll respond for him. >> Okay. >> Over the past 24 hours, >> just for the record, Jesse Palino. >> Jesse Palino. I'm really sorry. over the past 24 hours
in support of Harris Solomon and the terrible depraved things that this mayor and the historic preservation commission members have done to him. I have been posting official meeting minutes from
the HPC. I have been posting recordings from the meetings of the HPC. providing evidence to the public of the terrible things that go on on the HPC.
And this man posted today that I am a liar and that it's all fake and none of it ever happened. I'd like to sit in this room with this man and members of this council and let
you listen to those recordings, let you read those meeting minutes. Scandal. I have never in the 45 years that I've lived in this township ever seen a mayor or a council person do the disgusting,
depraved, scandalous things that this man does on social media under the guise of the First Amendment. Thank you. It's downright disgusting.
Filthy, vulgar sexual language. And this man sent me private messages of a sexual nature about a former mayor and council person. And that is why I
severed any relationship I ever had with him. It's just depraved. I've told every one of you about this behavior and not one person responded. He has these podcasts, some of which are from his office here
in the municipal center, and yet there are residents at his town that are blocked from his group. Now, a member of the public asked at the last meeting about that and the attorney said he was
going to get back to her on it. It is unlawful for him to be blocking people. Not that I care to go on his depraved Facebook page, but what's been done to Harris Solomon is disgusting.
And I thought Harris was going to talk about being attacked in the Sussex Shopright last week. He called me up and told me about it and he was very upset. And I'm not going to go into those details because he didn't go into the
details. But what I am going to say is that I think that land use board member and historic preservation commission member Jodie White Bearsler needs to resign from those boards because we
cannot be having bullies on our boards who attack their own fellow board members. >> I can understand your feelings. The mayor is here. Mr. Solomon is here. You're here. You were involved in that
situation. Bringing in another name from any another person. >> I'm bringing in the name of a board member on this town. >> Bullying and attacking fellow board members. >> He attacked me in the Sussex outright. >> It's here.
>> That is something that you would have to probably take up with. >> But this is not behavior of this township. We don't do it here. We have never had a We have never had a language ever. Thank you. Is there anyone else wishing to come forward?
>> Vinnie Ali, 45 road, New Jersey. Um I just wanted a corner on the garbage got cut off. Um I'm sorry. >> Okay. One of the things that um you were talking about were concerned of the council was the expense of this coming labor. We going to hire people, hire this and that. That's a big concern of
the council. Um I was president of union for many years as you know Pat um the the DPW is part of the um bargaining agreement with the township. It's agreeable. Um many cases we got three work groups and stuff and every day something's different by the director.
Okay then you're doing this whatever your work is this parks for example you let's say they got five employees right so for Memorial Day you know you got a big thing going on >> all hands on deck >> all hands on deck and that's how the department works. So I mean like this
extra work that may be coming from the um uh recycling center um I think the department will be able to cover all that with I don't understand why there will be even any should fall under the bargaining agreement I would think but yeah you go to work you work eight hours work hours every day you do something different it's up to the director on
what he wants you to do I think you do so I mean that might be something I don't understand where that nimble came from worried about hiring more people I think right as right now there is no openings they're not looking to hire nobody anymore I think we're set in stone And the other thing I want to hit and I'll let you go. Okay. Um, is it even legal to do this? I don't know how
this all works. Like if the director want to sit down with council with the mayor maybe behind closed doors just to discuss it instead of looking at paper and numbers and stuff and get maybe feel each other not bumping heads kind of feel each other out about what's the way to go. Why is this not working and that
is that are you can you allow to do that? If the mayor wishes to do it, we can the council doesn't normally get involved with the with the uh the administration and the administration of its policies. We pass the policies and it's up to the mayor and his
subordinates to be able >> So that's not something that's even >> unless he unless he calls us in. >> But we can't all go, right? It has to be two. >> No, it has to be one or two. >> Yeah. >> I'm sorry. What was that? >> You can't It has to be one or two at a time. We can't be all of them. >> Oh, okay. Again, I'm I'm not I'm not
sure. Okay. It was something I was just thinking about, but thank you for your >> I wish it worked that way be but >> thank you. Anyone else wishing to come forward? >> Yes, sir. Uh I wasn't able to finish my thoughts earlier. I'll try not I'll try not to
reread this. Uh don't want to be repetitive. uh spare some of the pleasantries here. But again, Kirk Stevens, Sant Hill Road, farmer, resident that, you know, tries to do good in the community. I work tirelessly to keep things beautiful and keep kind
of the agricultural heritage going. um not here to to bark at anyone or to point fingers, but you know am just genuinely interested in understanding everyone's perspective here on the direction things are headed. You know I'm incredibly busy spring through fall
and I sort of hear whispers of this project coming down the line, that project coming down the line and uh you know sometimes you don't know what to believe or not to believe but um you know I don't want to be old-fashioned. I mean, development's happening as as as was stated, the zoning is what it is.
Some of these things are years in the making. So, I'm not trying to be naive here, but um I mean, I just stone in the audience earlier spoke that in other communities and other parts of the country, you know, you would have the whole town out here in Pitchforks
pushing back against these apartments and no one really wants that. And I'm surprised there aren't more people here to be frank. You know, my initial reaction when I heard there's all these apartments coming was just disgust and just
very upset. >> Um, and again, one one building here, one building there, but you know, 99 units at the base of 515 by, you know, the Daily Bean, you know,
>> with the pilot, >> excuse me. Um, you know, I I'll drive a tractor right down 94 and make a left down Alberta Drive and there's a there's a farm back in there that I Hey, and you know, it's it's like a game of Grand Theft Auto. I mean, I feel like I'm I'm under attack
trying to get down the road just with my tractor. Um, but even if we put all those things aside and we just say, "Okay, let's just let's just purely focus on the economics. I'm just struggling with $25,000 per student and you have a significant discount on the taxes. I
understand you're only getting $4,000 right now and that this is an increase, etc., etc., but it really comes down to how many people in those units are going to have kids in the schools and I think the question was posed earlier and I didn't really hear a direct answer to that. So maybe maybe we make a little
bit of money on maybe we go backwards, who knows? But it it really feels, you know, a bit risky to roll the dice on that. And then in my comments, I was sort of alluding to, you know, supply and demand. You know, there's a huge stock of housing in this town. Um, and again,
we got hit really hard in the last crisis. And it it just if you if you're if you study what's happening in economics in this country, I mean, it it feels like we're on the cusp of a of a recession and housing values are starting to tip downwards. Um, so do we really want to pour more inventory into
this market when we're sort of already at a top and there's, you know, things are a bit shaky is another concern that I have. Um, you know, let's go for quality, not quantity. if you're going to develop um you know, if you were saying we're going to build a community
around the golf course or we're going to, you know, do something a little bit more high-end, you know, more more ski units, um ski and ski out, but you're going to put an apartment building next to a bunch of other abandoned buildings, you know, on the edge of town. I mean,
who who what what type of person are we attracting here? Um, so again, maybe this this particular project right here is done and dusted and we can't change it aside from maybe the the pilot, but what about all these other ones in the pipeline? Is there still opportunity to
adjust the course of those and to, you know, just try and have a bit of a better outcome here? So, um, would prefer that I not just stand here and talk to you, would be interested in your thoughts and for this to be a bit more interactive. But again, my initial reaction just revulsion and do we really
want to put a bunch of high-rise buildings here. >> I agree with everything you said. >> Comments at the end of the council comments. >> You don't pull the council. I'm going to mention it in my comments as well why I voted yes because it was a
regretful yes but >> I think a lot of problem we have here is misinformation. Thank you. >> There was probably 2017 or 18 I was before this council and Mr. Rido, you voted against uh preserving the farmland on Drew Road
that I was uh proposed and thankfully it it was passed and we're still farming that land. >> Yay. >> Anyone else wishing to come to the council? >> Good evening everyone. Good evening,
Councilman Rudo. I just want to make one small comment. >> Just for the record, you come in. >> We were told about a meeting. >> Did we have your name? >> Sorry. >> Your name? >> Sorry. Sally Ranker Vernon. We were told a meeting or two ago that we were going to have a presentation by the attorney
regarding the pilot program. And I'm kind of disappointed tonight that we went ahead and introduced it even without that presentation coming first or at least at this point of on introduction. There's a lot of
information that a lot of people don't understand. I myself would like to have a few more answers and clarity about it. I understand somewhat the impact of it, the benefits, the pros, the cons, whatever. I'm not here to make a comment on my feeling about the pilot itself,
but it's about the delivery of information. And I'd actually like to ask you to reconsider your vote tonight. We have a length of council. I thought something of this magnitude, a 30-year decision, should actually have the information delivered to the public
first and then the newly seated council should have a part in this. And that's my comment. Thank you. that Steve Dunlop again. Yes. Just like to ask a question first. This pilot, did that exclude them from being involved
with edus and >> No, they're hooking up. They they are the requirements other than taxation are still in force. >> So they'll be assigned DDUs.
>> Absolutely. And they'll be paying. >> The only issue with the pilot program is the way that taxation is handled. >> Okay. >> And it's not even called taxation. It's called a a payment in lie of tax. It's
substantial and it does provide the township with a substantial amount of money if it in comparison to the way the amount of money that would have been received had the township tax that same piece of property in a more traditional
fashion. Fair enough. Thank you. A lot of beating up on the mayor tonight. If um I'll take one more shot. A few months ago, he referred to me the um campaign manager for Mr. Sparta and
Mr. Higgins. He did it in public meeting. He did it online. And um I had to advise him that he was completely wrong. I was Brad Sparta's campaign manager in 2003. I had nothing to do with Mr. Higgins and
Mr. Sparta's campaign. And I clarified that for him. I didn't even collect signatures. council 28 fireside chat. He referred to me as um the council's consigary and I was actually going to go rent a
white pinstriped suit and a fedora hat tonight and show up just as a goof. Um if I am the concigliary I've done a pretty poor job. Um you don't listen to me for anything. I haven't talked to you but once this year and that was on the budget where
you assured me you were going to vote no and then vote yes. >> Well, I have that in my comments too. >> I wish I had vote no. >> Listen, you have to vote the way you don't want to. >> Consigary, as mayor pointed out, I'm doing a poor job. If I were the consigiary and if the council were
listen were to listen to me, what I would say that if we're going to have a pilot program, let's have it on the garbage and let's take a 90-day period to let people sign up. They sign up, they pay their money into a fund, and when we hit that magic number, and I
think it's more than 217. I think it's probably more like 250 >> maybe even 350 >> and it may be higher than that but whatever that number is that you give them 90 days to sign up and if we hit that magic number then we start the plan
if not the money's returned to them nothing ventured nothing gained it's real easy to check off on a survey yeah I'll do that or yeah that sounds interesting the mayor also allegedly was quoted in the paper is saying that 80%
of the no votes came from very lit. Um again doesn't want us to believe anything on Facebook except for what he posts on Facebook of course but on Facebook they're saying that they could only identify about five people of the nose that lived in Berry Lakes.
Once again I think sometimes numbers just and comments get pulled out of the air and figure that nobody will question them. I think we need to question everything especially based on some of the things we've heard seen recently. So that's about all I have to say. Um I
really wish the council would come up with a number and say okay hit that number we'll start to plan and if it continues to be prosperous we'll continue it. If not we shut it down. And that should be clearly outlined in the ordinance. It shouldn't
just be this open-ended pie in the sky. Well, we'll try it, see what happens, and if it doesn't work, then we'll modify it or we'll cancel it. It's not the way to do it. It's not the way business does it. It's not the way township should. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you very much. You've been
very patient tonight. >> There's no more meetings this year for the council. >> Just one, the special meeting >> in January of this year. January this ordinance is no void after December 31st. >> According to the law,
>> so so this council runs until uh the 15th. I >> No, it it does. >> I know it might, but I thought it was done. >> So the same council will carry on until the until the 15th. So that's their
window 15th and 15th. But I thought it was year. >> That's because most bodies like Rockway Township was it was January uh January 1st to December 31st. That's that was your council. So then you don't you don't um carry over to to a new council.
So you you don't start something and then try to have the new council end it, you know, finish it on a second reading. >> Right. Well, that's why I thought it was dead and it was should be known for. Okay. Thanks. Anyone else wishing to come forward?
>> Yes. >> I actually have a question before I get into this. Sorry, I'm exhausted. >> Just for your name, mayor. >> Oh, uh, Jackie Broich, Vernon, uh, I don't know if it's the mayor that can answer it. If this pilot is turned down, is the developer going to pull this project? >> Yes.
>> Oh, good. Okay. Good evening. I am here to speak about the proposed pilot agreement and its long-term financial impact on this town. I am not speaking tonight from pure opinion. I bring nearly 20 years of experience as a corporate real estate auditor holding certifications in auditing, risk
management, and fraud examination. I've been recognized for my work in risk assessment, forensic auditing, and financial controls. On top of my professional experience, my family has been in the construction and development business for generations, giving me firsthand understanding of how these
projects are built, funded, and managed. I have worked directly with some of the largest developers in the country, including Greyar, the Michael's organization, Harkkins, Toll Brothers, etc. Um, if you're familiar with development in the business, you'll recognize that these are powerhouses on the East Coast. I have been in the
boardrooms where deals are structured. I've reviewed financial models and I've seen how the projections are presented to appear favorable. A pilot is one of the most common cost shifting tools in the development business. It does not reduce costs. It transfers the cost from the developer to the town. Developers
know that many approval bodies do not have financial expertise or firsthand development experience and they rely on that lack of knowledge and understanding. They profit because the town typically does not ask the right questions and does not do the long-term analysis. Respectfully, it is clear that those in
favor of this pilot have likely never sat in a developer's boardroom and do not have a solid foundation in financial risk assessment. This is not an ordinary citizen's plea. This is a concern from someone who knows this business like the back of their hand and is trying to keep you from making an irreversible mistake.
The predictable financial impact on the town includes overcrowded classrooms. My child alone is in a class of 34 right now, which is outrageous. uh higher school operating costs, increased traffic and roadware, greater demand on police, fire, emergency services, added strain on our water and
sewer systems to name a few. These are guaranteed costs. The developer secures predictable profit and the town is forced to absorb the unpredictable long-term expense. The financial projections being presented, or at least the ones that I have seen, must be analyzed by a truly independent expert
with no ties to the developer, the town, or any political interests. That is the only way to understand the true cost of this project. This is not opposition to growth or housing, but this pilot prioritizes developer profit over the well-being and financial stability of
our community. Please do not approve this. If ever there was a time to listen to someone with firsthand experience in this business, let this be it. I know the sugar-coded proposals developers send when seeking a pilot. I have been in the boardrooms with those company lawyers while these deals are drafted to
appear as appealing as possible. I cannot force anyone to vote a certain way, but I urge you to think long and hard before deciding. Do your homework, ask the right questions, bring in an independent expert, and consider the long-term impact on the town, the schools, and our infrastructure. And
please make a choice that protects this community. Thank you. >> Excellent. >> I just I just want to I agree. I agree with her about about having the right people in the room. Believe me, I do. Uh this is why we did hire a specialized
attorney that works for us. Um and it's for the and he does this >> uh programs and and he explains very well. Again, you you'll you'll see on January 5th >> how this like I said, I think I think
we're getting $900 a year right now for the property. So we're >> talking points for the builders. These no actual numbers, they're commitments. >> No, it's a talking point. >> Sorry, Pat. But this is >> No, >> this is there's a way of running a
meeting and there's a way of not and this is not the way we run a meeting. >> So, this is the >> excuse me. I know. >> Yes. No, but you have to be recognized. these these agreements. You can't have these agreements in place and then just
not follow through with them. This is it's like saying let's do go do a mortgage and then I'm not going to uh make these payments to to the mortgage company. Um >> hi, my name is Kathy. >> Excuse me. You haven't been recognized.
>> Please take your seat. >> Is this not the open public? >> Please, you haven't been recognized. Please take your seat. was told we could walk up and introduce ourselves. >> Yes. >> Like I said, this is this is um found
agreements that are that has commitment dollar amounts, time schedules, something get out of unless unless take over uh that that cost as well. um
why we did bring specialized attorney and phenomenal um and I think the board knows sees that as well. Uh again, these are things that we want to make sure that uh we are
doing things the right way. Um and uh that's like I said, this is all documented stuff and by >> Thank you. You've already been spoken. We've already heard your comments. Thank
you. Yes. My turn now. Hi, my name is Kathy Sasek. I've been a resident here for over 30 years. My four children went through the public school. And I was very happy to move here 30 years ago because the classroom size was 20 students to one teacher. That was a
long time ago. It's not like that anymore. And my taxes were only like $2,000. And now I'm up to 10,000. And I don't think this gonna help us. Um 55 unit building, okay, the 27, it's a
done deal. My biggest concern is the 99 units that they're putting on two acres on 55 across from that coffee barn, the coffee house. That's overdevelopment. And I don't only
see it here. I drive 45,000 miles a year. I drive all over New Jersey. I drive all the way down North Carolina and these cardboard quarter rectangular buildings, apartment buildings are going up everywhere. Every
town in New Jersey has them. Where are you going to get all the people to come in? I don't get it. I don't get it. I think it's overdevelopment. Someone is making money on this and it's not it's only going to hurt the people in this community. It's not a benefit to the
people in this community. Development is a benefit, but this is not this is money- making for the building industry. Someone's making money. They're not making money on single family homes anymore. They're making money on multiple dwellings. And
this is overdevelopment. You don't put 99 families on two acres with no grass to for the kids to play, no playgrounds, parking with one parking spot per family or one and a half. What family just has one car when you have two people in a
building? Where are these kids going to play? I really think it's it's it's a it's not good for burn. It's not good. Um, and I think that we should have been educated about the pilot program before you made
your vote. It seems like you made your vote today. >> We didn't make the vote. We just voted to introduce it. >> Right. And then your next opportunity to vote is going to be after that pilot presentation. So that you're going to get your say before we get the new counsel done. And is that really fair?
So that's all I have to say for now. >> I just want to speak for the record. I'm just not a fan of the 99 apartments coming in. >> Is there any way that we can stop >> 55 done deal 99 apartments on two acres a done deal?
>> Excuse me. >> That's an accident. >> Anyone else wishing to comment? >> I would like this woman to be want to speak here. She >> she's already spoken. >> If we need to be so >> No, you have this is not this is not a free-for-all. You're
>> this is the most articulate person here tonight who has an expertise. >> You were quite articulate yourself. So >> the exception >> I like the question because he did >> you address the council please. >> But you but we've already heard your comment so I don't know what else you will want to say.
>> Give it to somebody >> Matt Jessup. Matt Jessup >> from McMinan. >> Can I call Matt Jessup and ask if he has any personal or >> can call him. professional ties to any independent. >> You can Yeah, of course you can.
>> It's a It's a separate law firm. >> Completely separate. It's >> no completely separate. >> Sure. >> These are specialists and there's no >> He's a specialist. >> Excuse me. Say specialist. Can I speak please? >> You go ahead. >> Name of the person is Matthew D. Jessa
Esquire. He's with the firm McMminan Scotland and Bowman. It's a well-known uh very very prestigious firm. Uh I was in Atlantic City for the League of Municipalities. I attended two not one
but two uh programs on uh uh the advantages of pilot programs. He gave one of them. Uh these programs are uh built are designed especially for
particular areas that are in need of development because they really have no attraction for any um developers to come in and begin to look at that property and see if they can uh
site it for other particular purposes. >> What's his financial expertise and background? So there's a separate there's a separate financial analyst. It's uh Phoenix Advisors had that come in and do the do that. >> Okay. What? >> Nothing.
>> Thank you. >> Is there anyone else wishing to come forward? >> We have a motion to close a for the public. Moved. >> Move. Second by Mr. Higgins. A seconded by Mrs. Defendad. Roll call, please.
Council member Bushier. Yes. >> Council member Danadetto. Yes. >> Council member >> Figer in the room. >> It's very loud. >> I know. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Council President Rudo. >> Yes. Can we keep it down, please?
If you want to talk, you can do that outside. Otherwise, please, you know, the decorum that's necessary for this meeting. Thank you. Uh Mrs. De Benadetto, you will. This is your formerly last meeting.
>> Yeah, I was going to read a farewell thing, but I'm going to skip most of it and just uh for Mr. Dunlop, part of this will uh uh I hope I've served you well, though I carry some regrets. One in particular weighs on me is my vote to pass this year's budget. To provide some context, the vote came during a deeply
challenging time in my personal life. My father became critically ill and passed away quickly and my focus was consumed by grief. At that moment, the budget felt insignificant. I was frustrated by the constant calls and discussions when all I could think about was losing one
of the most important people in my life, second to my son. Had I been in a clearer state of mind, I would have scrutinized a tax increase and likely voted no. Compounding this was the pressure of a $25 daily fine for non-participation, which I, as a single mother, could not afford. I know this is
not an excuse, but I offer this as insight into my decision that I wish I could revisit. Um, and about this pilot, I didn't want to vote yes on this. If you know me, I don't want another single person living in Vernon. Um, I love the animals. I I'm
sick of people hitting deer and the bears getting shot for no reason in my opinion. Um but you know when you sit up here, you have a decision to make and and you can't vote based on what you want cuz I don't want any of these buildings. Not a
single one of them. Um I moved here for that reason. I came from New York City. Uh I mean I I grew up here and then went to New York City and you know I came back and um you have tough decisions to make and you have to do what's best for the town and not vote based on what you want. So
the information I was given about the pilot from the attorney that we spoke to made sense. It's $3 million more than we would be getting. Um >> 3.8 >> 3.8 and if you do the math even with the students we still end out we still end
up ahead. So, you know, people complain about their taxes and me being one of them. This is something that would help to alleviate with the payment that the town receives. Uh, I didn't want to vote yes on it. I hate it just as much as every one of you, especially the farmer
cuz I love farms cuz they have animals. Um, well, many tree farms don't. You know what I mean? Anyway, um, it's tough being up here and having to vote in a way that you don't want. Dorene, I know you're especially disappointed in me tonight. And I apologize, guys. I just I
vote for what I think is best for the town, uh, not for what I want. That's it. That's all I have. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And I do have thank yous for you guys, but I'll save that for the special meeting. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, >> super. >> Yep. I I do appreciate everyone reaching
out. I received messages, emails, texts, um, and and all of your concern. Um, we've met with with the uh special attorney Matt Jessup several times prior to this pilot. We met with him multiple times regarding the other pilots. So, we
have become I think I could speak for everyone sitting here. We've we've learned a lot about pilot programs. Um, and we live here too. You know, we we don't want our taxes raised. We don't want um our community overburdened and
we want to make the best decision for everyone in the community because we care about our community and we're in this community. Um and it will, you know, as Pat said, it's it's $3.8 million. Is it going to reduce your
taxes? No. You're are I don't think we're ever going to see our taxes go down significantly. Will it help stabilize our taxes and really help prevent significant increases? >> Yes, it will. Um, there's not going to
be we we we addressed school children. >> Um, >> excuse me. >> We >> can ask you to please leave or maintain the core. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Um, we talked a lot about school children. you've got three former, well actually four former school board
members on the council. Brad's not here today. Um, and we we understand that, you know, the significance of that and that's been a discussion. So, we definitely take um I know I speak for myself, but I think I can speak for everyone here. We take the um the
questions and concerns from everyone in the community seriously and we talk about that. We ask questions of the attorney. we ask questions um about the developer and at the end of the day I think um whether someone votes no or yes
for this pilot for the garbage for a resolution about um I don't know anything we're making the decision that we think is best for the town even if it's something that we might not all agree together or
you might not agree with us Um, at the end of the day, I I trust that all of us are making the decision that we think is best. And it's not um it's not to be combative or difficult or that we don't care. Um, but
we are doing our due diligence for sure. I can definitely assure you that we're all definitely doing our due diligence regarding the pilot. >> Yep. >> Um, no, I got one more meeting to say goodbye, I guess, right? >> Get to do it again. >> I get to do it again.
You have a few things to add to to begin with. The audience really appreciate everybody coming here because Vernon, if they're known for one thing, it's nonparticipation at the election. Any election, it's people don't even know who's
running. They have no idea. 99 apartments, 27 apartments. It's just words to them. They they're too busy doing what they're doing. They're not involved. And as a result, you get what you get. That's why we're here because we volunteer time to try to bring this
together and have one group gather as much information. There's a lot in the audience. Uh Noren and Jesse and Sally, I speak to a lot of people all the time. I appreciate I sit next to Ann on the land use board and there's a lot of good ideas and that that goes into what this
job is. So you you gather facts, you try to find out what's real, what's not and you listen. That's the best thing. So even tonight there were a lot of lot of statements made on the 99 apartments. This has nothing to do with the 99. So
would everybody please get that out of their head. This has to do with a 27 apartment building behind this building on 3/4 acre of property and it was designed the land use board didn't like the design that much. They went back they redesigned it. They made changes.
They complied with the lighting ordinances. They made it friendly to walk through it. Yeah, there's going to be a parking problem. I could see some people are going to be parking on the street because there's 1.4 cars for every apartment. And we know that there are times when that's not enough. So, it
really comes down to the facts that this will generate $3.7 million for this town for the municipal port of the town. And it's it's over a 30-year period of time. Right now, that piece of property is paying $3,820.
$3,820. That's it. So, compare that to $3.7 million because it's a undeveloped piece of property and it's and it's a a very small piece of property. So, so it it will financially benefit the town. Will it change the makeup of the town to
have a 27 apartment? No. Will a 99 apartment? Yeah, that's going to change. This is a whole different subject. And so it really comes down to the school board. So yeah, there might be eight, nine kids in this in this building. And
there were people here tonight saying, "I have 34 children in my daughter's class." Well, the fact of the matter is that we have 10.9 students per teacher in this town. One of the lowest teacher ratios in the state. And that doesn't
include the aids that are in the room with them. Sometime there's two or three aids. So it's really a favorite place for a person to be a teacher and the taxes that are paid. 58% of your taxes go to the schools and the school board
takes advantage of the people by passing a 9.65% tax increase on top of a 4% tax increase and everybody sits home and says nothing. That's the real problem. if you want to say something, save your energy, go up there because they will
listen if there's people talking to them. So, whenever this pilot program comes out, they'll benefit nothing of it. But there's a a a uh resolution right now in the state of New Jersey because we're a blue state with even a
bluer governor than the one that's there now wanting to make sure that pilot money goes to the schools as well. They don't pay anything back if there's if there's a veteran, if there's a disabled person, if there's somebody that protests their taxes. And we've
collected $10,000. We're the collector for all the taxes for the county, for us, and for the schools. And we've collected that 10 grand, we've given $5,800 of it to the schools. If somebody protests their taxes and wins, the schools keep their money. We have to pay
their portion back. That's the way this thing works. It's all on us. So, this is one of the few programs that we can actually benefit as a tax base to help you people. I don't want to change the way the town looks either. I've been here for 47 years and I love it here and raise a family. So, it's it's you'll
you'll find out on January 5th a lot. It's really a professional. Uh Jessup is a great speaker. He'll answer all your questions and I I think I think you'll agree that uh there's nothing wrong with this project. It's a good project. It is
good for the town. I'd like to recommend something else. I'd like to recommend a voluntary stopping all the Facebook post for a lot of the people that are in this room. It just particularly Mr. Mayor, please stop. It's just it can't be
anguish then than then you can believe that didn't vote for me. But I hear a lot of people uh appreciate the transparency and and constantly communicating with the public. I will not allow
>> people to to shut me down like that. >> Will you say you're sorry to me? >> Say you're sorry to me, Jesse, right now. Apologize. Picture >> here, sir. >> Please. I'll show it to you. >> It's here, sir.
>> Um, so no, I will not. This is um We have we have finally been transparent. Uh I try to get as much information out as much as possible. I will not >> cut down. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Please, >> why don't we please >> I have nothing further to say motion >> and I I want to thank Natalie and Jessica. Great great working with you. >> Thank you.
>> You're back again and uh I hope you learned a lot. I learned a lot from you. >> Thank you very much. >> I have a Thank you for a motion. >> Moved. >> We have a motion to adjourn. Moved by Mrs. and seconded by all in favor signify by saying I
>> opposed. Motion carries. We didn't know who they were at Chase.