In recognition of those who gave their lives service of >> I am here for it. >> All the meeting order please. Burn the council. The township clerk, please read the statement. >> Adequate notice of this special meeting
was posted on the Vernon Township website at the municipal building. The Open Public Meetings Act, NJSA 10 col4-7. The purpose of this special meeting is to carry any business from the May 11th, 2026 regular meeting that was cancelled.
Action will be taken. >> Okay. Salute to the flag. Pledge >> allegiance to the flag. United States of America >> here. >> Council member Sparta >> present. >> Council President Higgins
>> here. First item is number five, an item for discussion and it's not a new item. We've had this discussion during budget time and it's uh discussion on a hiring freeze. So hiring freeze is currently not in effect. There's been difference
of opinion on the council as to what authority we have, what we don't have on freezing hiring. There are other towns that have uh instituted hiring freezes and uh there are members of the council who wish to continue this discussion.
There's been some difference of opinion on research that was done on some of the council members and our council on what can or can't be done in terms of directing the mayor. So any council member, you're one of your subjects you
wanted to speak about? Well, I'd like to see a statute that says we can't do it. Done it in the past. Township of Vernon's done it in the past. The mayor already agreed to it. So, why is there
an issue? >> Can you hear me? >> I'd like to see a statute that says we can't do it. >> So, Mr. Peter, is there anything that you could produce? I'll draft the memo and I'll put in, you know, the statutes and legal. I mean, there there are there are certain
>> Please speak louder. We can't hear you. >> There's no mics. >> Oh, there's no mics. I'm sorry. >> No mic. >> There there are certain um >> not working again. >> There are certain positions that are required by law. So, if one of those positions became vacant, as a matter of
law, you're required to fill those positions. So what I'll do is I'll put a memo together and I'll I'll go through each each of the positions civil service. So there are ci civil service rules. Uh we'd probably have to look at the union contracts. Sometimes the union
contracts have certain requirements of people I I haven't looked at that. I'd have to look at that as well. >> Include the statutes. >> I will. >> Okay. >> I will. >> Okay. Then we can put that to rest. And if it's >> we've done it before. I don't >> council president
I would imagine and doesn't matter what form of government you're in >> well so so in a council >> in a council form um there there's a the council the mayor in a council form is elected amongst the um members of of of
the council it's it's it's ceremonial this form there's a strong mayor and and a you know council it's it's a little bit different So yes, the form of government does matter in some instances. >> So we form policy and this is budgetary policy. >> Well, that's different. So you're trying
to do >> well your so your your power is in in allocating the the money the money for the employees. Then once the budget is passed, then the budget goes to the mayor to allocate those monies based upon how you've put them into each
department. Um there there may be a change where um one department like roads needs more people. You know things change in government. You as the legislators don't wouldn't know that and nor should you because
you're part-time. The mayor is the one who's in charge of the administration. He's the one in charge of running the operations once you allocate that money. So you you kind of have to give him latitude um to run it. And you and he should be running it in the best
interests of the township because that's what all you elected officials are here to do. You're elected to do that. >> So there is >> take all the money away then have zero in all the line items then. >> So so I mean >> you that's going to be something drastic.
>> Well I guess you you could do that but I don't think DCA when when the budget goes down to the state I don't think the state's gonna be happy with that. I think they would uh say, "No, I don't we we don't think that this is a good budget." So, it is a it is a fine line. Um I think again I remember at the last
at the last meeting the mayor >> uh stated that he wasn't there was no plans for anyone to be hired. I know that in the past um you know some police have retired. I've seen the police officers um you know we've had those ceremonies here where they've been
hired. I don't think anyone would be against that hiring. Um, with regard to some part-time people, I guess there were some part-time people hired, which is savings because you don't have to pay for the um medical benefits and the vacations. So, sometimes
>> for them for their pension, >> you pay So, what you do is you pay that um two or 3%. It's that um >> but they seem to go up into fulltime. But anyway, that that's kind of there. But that that so that's another >> again that's another discussion but I will put that memo together for you. I
understand what you're saying and again the mayor is constrained by the amount of money in the budget with regard to employees and sometimes we've seen um monies allocated once at the end of the year you can move money around if there's a shortfall if there's an
unexpend expected issue. We had that last year with regard to the one person who um was in the union, wasn't in the union and and had to be put in the union. That was an additional um bit of money. We had that issue with the CFO where a CFO resigned and we had to get
another one and you're hiring people at at a higher rate. So, >> I think part of the the >> Speak up because mics out. >> Yeah, there's no mics again. Yeah, that's another thing to get that fixed because it's >> but um part of what I think is
misinterpreted about this resolution is that the mayor agreed to go along with it at the last meeting. So, our main goal in this resolution is not to direct the mayor, but rather to address a problem of there being more employees
now than there were three or four years ago, more part-time employees than there were three or four years ago, and a high tax increase, and we don't want to see that continue to grow. So, we work with the mayor, we pass the resolution, we state as a council, we don't want to see
more employees hired. We don't want to see people go from part-time to full-time during this budget. And the mayor works with us. And I understand that we can't force him to do anything as per state law like you're saying, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't at
least express what we would like to see done because if we don't do that, then what's the point of being up here? I I would hope that both you the council and the mayor would be on the same you the same understanding that you don't want to just hire people for the sake of
hiring and the money's not in the budget and you're correct you you were able to bring down the original budget to far less number which is a great thing. So, I would think that the mayor um and he did say it at the last meeting um that
he had no plans of hiring people, >> but I will get that memo. I think >> I think the the reasoning >> we could >> the reasoning behind this resolution is not to force the mayor's hand, but rather to codify or not maybe not codify, maybe that's not the right word,
but to >> document the agreement that he made publicly that this is not something that's going to continue to happen. We're not going to have more employees now, >> not more employees in a year from now. So, so with a resolution is is basically
the council's, >> you know, opinion on what they think. An ordinance is something that is law. So, a resolution really has no binding effect because, as you've said, the mayor has to run the town. >> Yeah. Um, you you again allocate the
money, the resources, you you you've talked about the budget, you've identified things you want to do in the future, and then the money that the mayor is given, he has to spend it wisely, which I would I mean, I'm sure he's going to do that. >> I mean, the budget is an ordinance. The
hiring freeze is a resolution because the hiring freeze is an expression, an opinion of all. >> That's that's why I'm perplexed as to why we're not voting on it. Because if the argument is, oh, you can't do that, well, we're just expressing that we'd
like to see it done, so why would we not vote on it? >> Because there are other people on the council who don't have the opinion that you have that it's just a resolution. There are other people on the council that want to say the hiring freeze means no hiring and put teeth in it. That's
the whole point here. >> So then you don't do it because you don't you can't put teeth in it. If you vote on something to enact a regulation that says you're not hiring anybody and that's your intention and you and it has
no validity to follow through, why would you vote on something like that? >> To hold because we have to work in collaboration with the administration. And if you're not documenting what you'd like to see the administration do, then how are you going to have any input in
that conversation? How would you make sure that everyone in the town knows and everyone in the administration knows the council does not want to see more people being hired >> another member of the council just expression
she would like to have it actually be a rule no hiring >> that's a different opinion than what you're saying why it's not on for a vote and that's why it's on for a discussion and that's what we're having right now and we asked Mr. King to clarify some of the things that Miss Ols would like to
see, which is a higher increase. >> But I mean, if we were to vote on it, you'd still have both of us voting yes on it. So, and and I don't I don't know how everyone else would vote, but it just seems kind of to block the whole thing.
>> Can you guys see kind of >> Hello. >> unnecessary to just block the whole vote. >> You're entitled to your opinion. Yeah. Mhm. >> No. >> Okay, we'll roll. >> Bill, before we go forward, is is it
possible for anybody who has a tough time hearing to come sit up in the front? >> Yeah, that would be a good idea. >> There's We could always fill this table up here. I mean, that's >> I mean, it's there's no uh >> is there nobody that in the area that can uh
>> What are we moving down there? Just as long as people understand it's not a conversation that is >> right >> want them to move closer >> if if anybody wants to I mean right here >> speak louder >> that's hard just
>> put it out there that's all >> okay >> okay any other opinions on that item for discussion >> I'm I concur with gentleman to my right and lady to my left said, but I I would like to see before we take action, let's see what
our learned council has for us, okay? >> Because there may be ways that we should be able to uh address this so that to be sure that what the intentions of uh the council are and what the mayor has
assured us would take place do indeed. Mhm. >> And there are other factors that go into a hiring freeze and Mr. King and I spoken about it, it's been spoken about at meetings. It has to do with civil service. In my opinion, after speaking to the staff and having this subject
discussed at many meetings, we're not in compliance with civil service. You can say whatever you want, but we're not in compliance and we should be in compliance. So, I look for Mr. to uh give us that direction as well to make sure that we are in compliance.
Certain steps have to be taken in order to hire someone and time frames and we're just doing it. >> Hey guys. Hey guys. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? >> Yeah. You're not >> There's a reverb though. >> Any any other council members?
>> Weren't we going to have everyone move closer so they can hear us? >> It's up to them. >> It's up to them. >> You guys want to come up? up if you want. >> Hey guy, >> want to make sure you can hear how can you hear me? >> Can speak loud. >> Yeah, we can hear. >> Okay.
>> So, one of the things that I just to touch base on get there in a second. Mayor comments >> just this is not included in your discussion here at this point. >> I'm sorry. Yeah. Was that council? >> We're ready now to move on to mayor's
comments. So, >> I was I was trying to connect, but I wasn't able to talk the whole time. So, all right. Part of my council, part of my mayor's comments, I did state that the administration's is not
trying to hire people. And I think there's this misconception that we've hired all these people and when reality is we only hired uh one full-timer because we lost our payroll and
um purchasing person and I think we hired three part- timerrs. So that's this whole thing about hiring 20 employees is is false. Unless they're talking about re uh replacing employees, that's
different, right? Someone someone retires, we replace them. Um so we've done that. I don't know if that number comes out to 20. I think that was the crazy number that was out there, but but that number again, it's not we're not we didn't hire 20 additional employees. So I just wanted to set that record straight. Uh
so in this form of government the mayor hires hires and promotes within. So I think uh Peter will will um put that out there for you guys in the memo. But I I do urge you guys to look
at this form of government. Second, I'm just going to put into the record for economic development advisory committee. Sietta Holmes, S I E D H A Homes. Um,
it's usually a one-year term, so her it will expire in January. We'll reapply. Uh, a couple other things we have this week. while coming up on the Memorial Day uh the the 25th 10 a.m.
There'll be a new route starting on Main Street. That's for the Memorial Day parade. Unfortunately, trying to get state permission uh is is very difficult for the VFW. They've asked if we can try to help them in that. So, we decided
we're going to reroute the parade. Um so again that will that will start in back at the firehouse down Main Street, Church Street, and then down to the flats. Okay. Um there's a in recreation there's a
Yankees bus trip August 22nd, the games uh versus Toronto Blue Jays. Tickets are available $100 for a seat and transportation block 307 along first base line. Um, Makers Mark that and
plants plant swap May 30th at Hemill Farm. June 12th, movie at the at movie at the park at Maple Range at 7 p.m. June 13th, Vernon Day on the field between Cedar Mountain and Glenn Meadow.
And June 23rd, Science Heroes Digging It Program at the Maple at Maple Ranch Park. June 28th, the car show on Main Street, 12:00 p.m. to 4. And guys, check this out. This is a new uh activity
booklet that our recreation department has put out. I just I got a quick view of it today. It's a park ranger activity booklet um that that the recreation staff has has worked to put that together. It's a fun set of adventure activities for 12 and under. So check
out um probably on the on the Facebook recreational Facebook page and additional to for tonight the data center um debacle. I I think there there really has to be a lot of research because I think when you go and just do
a quick band without really understanding what a data center data center is, what its resources, uh there's a lot of things that we can do. Um we we can we can limit certain things to to avoid these hypers scale data
centers. Um but this I did reach out to some of the uh people. There are data centers throughout Vernon Township and this would affect some of our communications um such as Planet Network um uh Warwick Valley Telephone. This this
would cause serious interruptions with them. So I really think that you guys Don't just do a straight out ban. I think this is something that really needs to be looked at um investigated and then and then don't do a full out ban. I think you're going to cause
problems with that. I think we should bring the professionals in, have these conversations and and maybe we could set some limitations. And I think that's it for my comments today. Oh, just in one other thing we had.
police police uh national police week and this week is uh national EMS week. So, thank you guys for everybody who who serves on these teams. Without you, um
it would it would be hard. So, again, thank you again for for all of your service, dedication, sacrifice. Thank you. That's it. Council President, >> Mr. Mayor, you asked for time at the next meeting on the 28th for a state of the township. >> That's correct. Yes.
>> All your intention. >> Yes, please. >> Okay. That'll be at the budget and that'll be on the agenda as well. >> Great. Thank you, sir. >> Okay. Next will be public comment. Public comments are limited to three minutes
per person on current agenda items only. Anyone wishing to speak must state their name for the record. May I have a motion open the floor to public comments? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I
>> post. Seeing no. Okay. Any members of the public care to speak, please? >> May I? Because it's easier for me to fumble through my little notes here. >> Sure. >> Thank you. >> Dorian Edwards, Highland Lakes. Good evening, everybody. Nice to see you all.
Um, what I wanted to talk to were two two or three issues. Um, number one, the the one mayor the mayor had mentioned that there's going to be Vernon day. That's a special day. That's celebrating our 250 year country anniversary and
it's going to be done up real good. I know the VFW auxiliary is going to have a big tent, a lot of activities for kids. So, I hope the word gets out for that as well as the move of the parade because I'm in that parade every year and everybody just goes to Dairy Queen
and line up down that those roads. They might be looking for us and not know where the heck we are. So, I hope that the town is doing something to get the word out um about that. So, just wanted to mention that. Um let's see. Um, we were talking about
there's a resolution 26-169 in regards to adopting an affirmative marketing plan for the township of Vernon. So, I did some research. I understand that this is an obligation I think that town has to bark upon.
However, I would ask that you go out for bids that you don't just automatically give it to like Caldwell Associates or somebody like that. Go out for three bids. It's other marketing firms that do do this. Um, I don't understand why we
have to pay for this. I mean, it's pretty much, you know, the developer, in my opinion, develops responsibility. I guess the state of New Jersey feels different, but I do not. I see there was also on Bill's list there was also a fee um a legal fee for Omega Drive
redevelopment which costed taxpayers 1300 um and $13,172 already. So we are continuing to pick up cost to help this move along um in certain aspects. So um I'm a little
dismayed that you know we have to do that. If you look at where they're advertising, it's not Sussex County is the last county on the list. Okay. So, I think when this came into play, a lot of people in this town were thinking, "Oh, good. Maybe our seniors could get a
break." And then everything rolled from there, the pricing and etc. And it kind of blew up for the for the town that it really wasn't apppropo for our seniors. Um, the other thing I wanted to say was there's on Bill's list there's something I don't know if this is an error, but
it's listed twice and it's a pretty hefty um, bill and I think it has to do I wish I could read the numbers for you. I take screenshots. Um, it's 12,500 twice for um, somebody to come and I think talk to the employees about the health benefits and
the health plans. So, I don't know if it's listed down there incorrectly twice. Uh, and if it's not, then why is it listed twice, though? Um, uh, world um, World Insurance Associates, it ends in 657 and underneath that it ends in
672. I don't know what page it's on, but it says benefit consultant second quarter 26, $12,550. And then under number 0672 says benefits consultant second quarter $12,500 for a total of $25,100
for somebody to call come in and talk to say this is what we could do for you. I think that's a little excessive myself, but is is it a duplicate? I'm just wondering. And uh >> do we do we have the numbers? >> Yeah. See um 26 066016.
Is that the number you're looking for? >> That' be the first one on the left like 65. >> Yeah. So 66016. >> I mean you have I mean if anybody scrolled down there's like there's a lot of bills to pay this month. Holy Christmas. Were we not paying any bills?
What came in my mind? >> Okay. 66016. >> Yeah. So it says benefits consultant second quarter 26. Right. So the year 2026 I assume $12,550 and then it's listed under 672 benefits
consultant second quarter $12,550. So it's just a little I don't know >> 66016 is listed twice, right? It's for the second quarter. >> Well, it's not listed twice underneath that. The benefits consultant charge is
listed twice, right? >> Get technical. >> So I don't know. I don't know if that's, you know, something for >> That's a It's a good question because they're both referring to the second quarter. >> Yes, exactly. >> Different department numbers. >> Department number
>> 657 672 are different departments. >> No, you're telling me the two departments couldn't get together to hear the whole thing. >> It may be, >> Dorine. I'm just saying what >> No, I know. I hear you. >> Maybe for the health part of it and then also the liability part. >> I don't know. It just seems pretty hefty
in my opinion, you know. We can request the CFO to uh address that. >> Yeah, if you would, I'd appreciate that. That's a good thing. There's a few things on his spills list that I won't have time to go into. >> Others, you know, mention them.
>> Well, there's one more that stood out to me. Mentioned the 13,000 that it cost us to help the developer again. Uh let's see. I I I feel pressured so I can't I can't
look that good. Well, the other thing was okay 65997. So maybe the garbage disposal is for in-house garbage here in the municipal building and then the glass recycling we touched upon I think the last meeting I
was here one gentleman from the DPW said because it's green glass that it falls now under a different category and we have to pay for that. But then there's plastic recycling and I didn't know that was an issue. So how did that get to be an issue that we have to pay for that? That's something we should I thought get
reimbursed for. >> Any comment, Mayor? Any >> Yes. >> Okay. So just real quick, um I just want to touch base on the affordable housing stuff. that stuff. There's a fund. We have a fund,
affordable housing fund that's paid that's funded by our, you know, developers and and so on. So, so that money doesn't come out of the the taxpayer money. Also, any service for uh any of these developers, there's an
escrow account that is created and and must be funded by the developer. So you may see things on there, but we do charge back their escro account so that so that it doesn't come out of taxpayer money. So just want to make that and
then I don't the other stuff. I don't know who's I I see Tina showed up. I don't know who else is there. They can maybe >> Tina is not here. Not here. >> The new Tina. >> Some of the audience took Tina's spot and >> Oh, okay.
>> Hi. So I moved up here. All right, thank you for that comment. And last thing I want to say, June 2nd, get out and vote people. Primaries are very important. Okay, local primaries, please get out and vote. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Jory. >> Appreciate it. >> Anyone else? >> I should. >> Yes, it is ranker place to be on the mic. You're wherever you're comfortable. Sally Rinker Vernon um I just want to
clarify one thing. There seems to be a lot of confusion about the numbers of employees and it is a concern because when Howard Burrell left office we had 11 part- timerrs and that is clearly depicted in the summary version of the
2024 budget right on our website. Then when one looks at the 2025 budget, we have 24 part- timerrs. And I did deduct the council members, which by the way, you guys are put in the part- timerr list. So there's really
five more on the numbers I just said. So we had 11 in 2024. Big concern going to 24 in 2025. The council is right on target being concerned with this kind of uh
acceleration in hiring. Okay. And I just want to remind you that as soon as you were done discussing it, he needed to remind you what he really can do no matter what. I hope you got that too, Mr. King. Thank you.
Anyone else? Peg. >> Good evening. Thank you, council president, members of the council. >> Just say your name. >> Sassy. >> I'm standing well sitting before you tonight to speak in favor of
implementing a former structural freeze of mun municipal hiring. We live in an economic landscape where our taxpayers are stretched to their absolute limits. And as a municipality, we must adjust
our sales accordingly. The most fundamental duty of the governing body is fiscal stewardship. ensuring that every single dollar taken from the pockets of residents is spent
sorry spent out of absolute undeniably necessicity not out of bureaucratic habit. Implementing a hiring and promotional freeze is not an act of desperation.
It is a standard legally permissible and highly effective tool under the New Jersey local budget law NJSA4A 4-1. Other towns in our county have done so
as well as the state of New Jersey governor just recently did it. It is a declaration that you are hitting the pause button, auditing your operations and refusing to expand structural
deficit until we have a clear transparent view of the financial horizon. It is your substance recourse. As Brad likes to refer to, it is the
teeth of the council. The teeth of the council is managing the budget and when you don't agree with something you act on it there without a updated salary ordinance which
has been repeatedly requested. There is no structure to follow. Our neighbors, our seniors are on fixed incomes and families trying to raise their children in this beautiful town cannot afford a
single dollar of waste. We cannot control state mandates, but we can control a municipal payroll. Our employees have increased drastically over the last two years.
I urge this council to take a stand for financial discipline, support a comprehensive hiring and promotional freeze, and send a clear message to the people of Vernon that you hear them, you
respect their hard-earned money, and you're putting transparency and fiscal restraint first. Thank you. >> Thank you. Anyone else? See no one else. We're closing. >> Oh, wait, wait, wait.
>> Yeah, please come up. >> Good evening. Why is the mayor up there? >> Atlantic City. >> There's a casino right here. Hey. Um,
>> stall. And I I'm not sure what was going on with the meeting about the data centers tonight. >> Please please say your name. >> Andy Stole. >> Okay. >> What What's going on? Was there a meeting about the data centers tonight? There seems to be a lot of confusion or cancellation on the Facebook. But
anyway, I I hope you're not considering that whatsoever here. Um, I know the people that want these data centers have very very very deep pockets and you might get that visit with the big suitcase if you haven't already.
But you you cannot put those places here. We we must have a whole town meeting before anything like that happens. Uh, that would just ruin this town. And and I assume you all live here as well, right? That would be our water,
our electric, our pollution, our money. Our electric bills would skyrocket. Nobody wants these. Let them put them in mid Jersey or somewhere. Please don't do that here and get, you know, we need we need to be informed. You need to sit
down with the town and and go over some any moves, right? We are owed that at least, right? Okay. So big no to the data centers and let us know when we can have a a town meeting for
these. Okay. Terrible terrible terrible um un ungreen un totally horribly on the environment and humans. So thank you.
>> Thank you. Anyone else? Seeing no enough, we'll close the comments to the public. And do I have a a motion to close to the public? >> Move. >> Second. >> Second. All in favor? >> I.
>> Review of the bills list. >> Carl, if you have any questions, make our way this way. >> I have a couple questions about >> uh first I'm looking at emergency dangerous
freeze and it is exactly $3,000. And I've seen that a couple times on our bills list. I just want clarification as to what constitutes that. I mean, I understand there's probably a logical reason for it or there is a logical
reason for it, but it's always a very round number. This is like the second or third bills list that I've seen where it's exactly 3,000 or exactly 2,000. And I just want to know what constitutes that service coming in as opposed to our
own municipal services fixing the tree. >> What check number you refer to? >> Oh, it is number 65886. It's on the second page here on the >> emergency dangerous trees exactly $3,000 and it's from April 22nd.
I I don't you know I know that that's something that would probably require someone to look into for information. So you can always email me. Um, the other concern I had was with elevator
number 65979. It says elevator emergency $20,993. Hasn't that happened a couple times? >> It has. >> What is going on with that elevator? >> $10,000. And that was a few weeks ago. >> Like that's $30,000 to fix the elevator.
any knowledge on that, Mr. Mayor? >> No comment. >> No, they um if they could send, like I said, >> send in their uh questions. I don't have it in front of me. Um, so they could good will get them the answer,
but I know we did have elevator repairs uh in the last couple of months, so I'm not sure exactly what uh what was wrong with the last one. >> If we could just get some kind of an update as to what's going on with that elevator maybe at the next meeting or sent in our email because
>> it's old. >> Yeah, >> it'll cost a ton of money for a new one. So, um, but yeah, we'll we'll get you something. >> Yeah, I just want to know about it. Um, and then the third, >> I had a couple things I wanted to talk about.
>> I marked them and this is a large packet, so forgive me. Emergency trees. Oh, enterprise fleet management. This is something that I remember before I was on the council. I remember council
member Higgins talking about this. $30,000 on car leases. And especially as we went through the budget process, I just wanted to flag this because I know the fact that we lease our um our
vehicles is something that not every town does. And I'm wondering if it's time that we evaluate that um maybe over the next year or so to see if that's still the most affordable pathway forward because $30,000 on fleet
management is a lot. >> Carl, you missed the 43,000 on the second page on top of it. >> You are right. This is a very large packet. Mhm. >> Just just for the record, you know, a a patrol car will probably cost you around
70 grand. Um, so just just know that these these leases are a big savings in in a lot of aspects. It's also not your typical lease. I know they call it leasing, but it's it's different than than us just
going to lease a car from the Ford dealership. we do get a lot of money back on vehicles when we when we do hand them back in. So, >> well, what I would like to see in the future is for this to maybe be a larger discussion point at maybe a work session
meeting. Um, especially as we lead up into next year's budget or just down the road because I know this is something the township's been doing for probably like what 10 15 years, not 15. It came when um
the old CFO started. She was here like a year and then she brought this forward. I was on the council then >> like 10 years, seven years ago, not even 10 years. >> Yeah. So there are requirements certain um police cars have to be uh they could
only be so uh you can only have them so long before you have to turn them um and replace them and then to outfit them. So when you start weighing in the money on a lot of that stuff, u leasing seems to have been a better option at least for at least for the
patrol cars. Um but I know what you're saying. I did have some concerns about leasing as well. Uh but then when you start looking at the price tag on some of these trucks like a 550 I think is is 115
$125,000 for that truck. It may it may make sense to continue leasing, but I think what I'm suggesting is just maybe in the future holding a work session to talk about it and maybe doing a presentation on just seeing whether or not it's still the most affordable
pathway forward because I mean it's a lot of money to buy one car, but we're also spending >> $70,000 on the bills list towards these leases every couple of months. So, how much does it actually wash out to? That's the only concern I had. I just
want to know a little bit more about the practice, >> why we do it, and if it's still the best pathway forward. >> Absolutely. I agree. >> And that's everything I had marked. >> Okay. Pat, you have any uh No, Andy.
>> No. Um I think Carl talked about a lot that I had marked off also. >> Um I see we have a lot of contracts. They still charge us for the work even though we have contracts with some of these vendors.
Um, you would think that we wouldn't be getting charged in addition if we have a contract with it. >> Well, there are, you know, for example, in the business that I'm in, >> you have a maintenance agreement. That means that we'll come and look at it. >> We'll check, we'll evaluate it, and if
you need it fixed, you're going to pay extra. You're going to pay for the actual work. If you want a contract that we don't have here that includes fixing it, they'll give you a price that's going to be a lot higher. >> Well, it seems like we're fixing the air conditioning, but the air conditioning
never works. It's on the bills list every every month. >> Yeah. >> And now we're buying buying these units, these air conditioning units. Well, then why did we have somebody come here every month? Look at it. It still doesn't work. >> Familiar with air conditioning the air
conditioning. Yes. So the the AC units I I got to think that it's probably for the initial startup of the year. Um but the system is very old and those um mini split systems uh will help take the load off
of the the current system uh that we have. So that's the only thing I could really go into that. But I don't have what exactly that bill was for, but I I I like to think that it was for starting up the AC
system um to do its early maintenance on there, but I could have I could have Howie provide more details on that. >> Okay. >> Contracts cost us a lot of money. Maybe we should just call somebody when
something breaks >> because they seem to be coming up and doing work and it's broken again. Oh, the system's old. >> You know, see that you spend boy, I think it was
hund, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars for to replace the system. So, >> I know at the beginning of the year, one of the things I asked last year that I was poll was done, everybody we do business with, we went out and asked for a renewal of their contract if they
wanted to bid for the continued work here. And do you recall if the air conditioning and the elevator companies were included in that list or were they excluded? >> No, we that was just for our professionals. >> It wasn't for service contracts.
>> And you're not sure if we went out to bid on the uh other than enterprise, there are multiple companies that offer leasing services and we shopped even if we decide to stay with a lease, have we decided to shop for different vendors?
Is there I mean enterprise seems to be the the largest but listen I'm hoping for ideas different services like you said um different options competitions is good an option to buy the vehicle after the
lease is done maybe that's something to look at >> I'm sorry what was that >> yes you want to know if part of the agreement was an option to purchase at the end of the lease >> yes >> yep Maybe we could look at that.
>> Yeah, we should get all the facts on program. >> Yeah, and I agree with Paul. We we should have we should have a round to have discussion on that and and pick it apart. I always question too with with with Howen and when Denell was there um
whether this was the the best option but >> certain things are but but certain things that question >> we got the video here of the uh of the request and I'll send you an email and we'll summarize it and see if we can get some answers some of these questions.
>> Anything else? >> Brad. >> Yes, sir. I just had a question on the quarterly payments to school $722,000. Would you happen to know off top of your head if the drive data drive was
included in that? Have they paid? Are they hooked up? Is it an ongoing payment or uh can you give us an update on that? So, Skuma has paid their their connection fees uh like they promised, which was
the day after they they found out how much uh that connection fee would be. Um as promised, they came back the next day and they they paid that uh I think it was 19,000. I'm not sure. Don't hold me to that number, but they did they did make those payments. Now, what did they
pay Skuma? I don't know. That's between them and Skuma. Um, I'm sure we would have heard it from Schoomer uh by now, but but uh there I I that large payment I don't know if that included uh I'm assuming it included them as well into
that. So that's really an MUA question, but but yes, they did pay the connection fees. >> Mr. Reid, can you comment? Do you have any further information on that? the payments to uh Skuma were made uh and uh
right we're on schedule >> on schedule the hookup fees the uh uses >> matter of fact there's a meeting coming up uh this week later this week that'll be addressed as well again >> okay we're also going to have a joint meeting with the MUA
>> yes that'll be done that'll be done I believe sometime in uh >> yeah first and first meeting in June. >> June 5th. >> Okay. So, my answers, my questions were included in the others and we'll close the uh session for the review of the
bills list and we'll move to the approval of the minutes for the April 20th executive session. I have a motion to approve April 20th executive session meeting minutes. >> Moved.
>> Second. Anybody second? Roll call. >> Council member Cantino. >> Yes. >> Council member Oms. >> Yes. >> Council member. >> Yes. >> Council member Sparta. >> Yes.
>> Council President Higgins. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> Okay. May I have a motion to approve the April 20th regular meeting? Move. Second. >> Second. Mr. Rosettto. Roll call, please.
>> Council member Cantino, >> yes. >> Councils, >> yes. >> Council member Rudo, >> yes. >> Council member Sparta, >> yes. >> President Higgins, >> yes. >> Motion carries. >> Next, number 10, consent agenda. There's
a number of items, resolutions in the consent agenda. We'll vote as one vote for the consent agenda. And if anybody wants to pull out any individual topic, please let me know right now. We'll remove it and have an individual discussion.
>> Like to pull out 261 174 174. Okay. Any others? Okay. So, I have a Can I have a motion to and a second to vote on the consent agenda with the exception of 261 174.
Move. >> Second. >> Roll call. >> Council member Cino. >> Yes. Council >> member. >> Yes. >> Member. >> Yes. >> Council member Sparta. >> Yes. >> Council president.
>> Yes. >> Motion carries. We'll move back to resolution 26174 for discussion for Mr. Rudo. >> Yes. Um, >> need a motion. >> Need a motion. >> I'll make I'll make that motion.
>> Motion. >> Second. >> Second, Mr. Dino. All in favor? >> I. Motion 26174 is for the payment of a the bid for the construction of a gazebo.
Um believe this is Maple Range Park and that uh this this particular structure uh will be awarded to a group uh within the uh
>> the cost uh parameters as specified. Uh, I have no problem with that. The items cost is 23,000 30, I'm sorry, 33, 328.78.
Um, however, I would like to make an addition to that and that would be therefore in the resolution and the resolution would follow uh
further that said Gazbo be named the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Stage recognition of those who gave their lives in service of our country. Uh previously I think as you know I had
been requesting some type of recommendation for uh use of a band shell. However, I I think the members of councils previous uh were ready to uh
uh pass on this but would rather have had a smaller structure and I think sometimes we have to compromise and I think this is something that will in fact provide that recognition
which is what I think we all look forward to having and yet hopefully achieve the benefit of having a project that can be used for the projection of voice and any other uh use that the
township so desires. Um thank you. So I have a motion to uh move forward with Mr. Rudo's recommendation to rename the gazebo that's up for bid amendment >> there be amendment to the resolution
>> as Mr. Rudo stated with the naming of >> structure, >> right? >> I'll make that motion. >> Second. >> Roll call. >> Council member Cantino. >> Yes. >> Council member Oms. >> Yes. >> Council member Ruda.
>> Yes. >> Council member Sparta. >> Yes. >> Council President Higgins. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> Do I have a motion to vote on resolution 26174 for approval? >> Moved. Do a second. >> Second.
>> Roll call. >> Council member Canino? >> Yes. >> Council member, >> yes. >> Council member Rudo, >> yes. >> Council member Sparta, >> yes. >> Council President Higgins, >> yes. >> Motion carries. >> Council President, I think it should be
noted to that was paid for by a grant. >> That's right. Yes. It was >> It was a $75,000 grant. >> It was paid for by a grant. on simply changing the name will have no effect on the >> No, >> except maybe for the sign.
>> That's it'll be uh construction at Maple Gr. >> Yeah, I believe so. >> Makes sense. Introduction of ordinances. Ordinance 2611, Ordinance Chapter 330, Township Code of
the Township of Vernon, define and prohibit the data centers. May I have a motion to introduce ordinance 26-11? >> Um, I would like to make an amendment to it. Do we have to introduce it first or do I amend it before introduction? >> You introduce it first.
>> Yeah, you we you can introduce it and then discuss the amendment >> and then vote on it with the amendment tonight. >> Correct. >> Okay, then I'll make that motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I.
>> All right. So I would like to motion to amend the definition of developer. So um after I wrote this ordinance which is based on one that Washington township had done earlier I believe this year I noticed that the way I had written the
definition of data center included telecommunications and I don't ever want to prohibit telecommunications equipment in our township anything for internet service providers. um cell towers, anything like that is not
what's intended to be included in this ordinance. So I am amending it so that the definition of a data center is a facility, building or use primarily engaged in the storage, management, processing or hosting of digital data,
applications, cloud computing services, cryptocurrency mining or artificial intelligence processing through the use of servers, networking equipment and related infrastructure. Such use shall include associated cooling systems, backup generations, generators,
substations, utility infrastructure, and security facilities. That differs from what was submitted earlier by just removing the word transmission and removing the words telecommunications or similar computer-based operations. The term shall not include customary
accessory information technology or server equipment to a permitted principal use including but not limited to schools, hospitals, government buildings, financial institutions or ordinary business operations. And then I'm adding this. The term shall not
include telecommunications facilities, public utility infrastructure, cellular facilities, fiber optic networks, central offices, switching stations or similar communications infrastructure primarily engaged in providing telephone, cable, wireless, broadband or
internet access services. That way this does not affect anything that already exists in the town or anything that is currently expanding in the town like broadband access that we don't want to influence. The reason that we're doing this is to prohibit a data center from
ever being built in Vernon before it even becomes a discussion by defining it and prohibiting it in our code explicitly. So that's my amended ordinance. And just the just so everyone knows the process is that this ordinance is going to have to be sent to the
planning board. >> Yes. So it's sent to the planning board and they have a period of 35 days after referral to report on the proposed ordinance whether or not it's substantially consistent with the master plan. For anyone concerned about
stakeholder input on an ordinance like this, not only does it have to be referred to the plan um the land use board, but upon second reading of an ordinance, the public has a chance to comment on it and that'suction and adoption. That's when people talk
about it and vet it. But yeah. >> Okay. Make a motion. Oh, can >> make a motion to >> introduce. >> I make a motion to introduce it as amended. >> Second.
>> Roll call. >> Council member Canino? >> Yes. >> Council member S? >> Yes. >> Council member Razido. >> Yes. >> Council member Sparta. >> Yes. >> Council President Higgins. >> Yes. >> Motion carries.
I'd just like to make one more comment on the data centers even though we just voted on it. Data centers have been being built in the United States for probably 354 years. So there's all sorts of different diff definitions of a data
center. I remember working up in Boston for three years and all along Interstate 84 91 was there was uh all sorts of construction taking place because they were laying fiber along the in between the highways of the roads and the whole
idea was to get as close to the interstate as you could because they were buying old properties, old houses, old farm houses, old apartment buildings and turning them into quote data centers. There was really no ill effect on the electric electrical grid or the
cooling because these are small facilities that later on 25 years became a big part of what's called the cloud today. But the cloud today there's not enough of those buildings around. So they're building these huge data centers and that's I voted yes because that's
what I'm referring to like the former psychiatric hospital down in Rockman County that's a Microsoft data center that covers acres and acres of property and that is a data center that we're talking about that we're really not highly interested in having in Vernon.
But uh as Mr. King said there's a long process for that to take place. I know the mayor posted something on Facebook where he said be careful what you're wishing for. We we're we're doing out research and uh it has to go to the planning board. It has to come back
here. There's public input. So there's a lot that goes into it, but as a as a general statement, no one's looking for a monstrosity building eating up the water and the power grid. >> Um could I make a comment? >> Yes. I wrote this largely in response to
what I saw happening in our own backyard in Andover and the kind of community outpour in opposition to such a data center in the highlands. We live in a town where our economy is largely based in ecoourism.
You have the Appalachian Trail. You have all these state parks and you have the Highlands Act. Our town code already prohibits anything that isn't explicitly permitted. So it would be very hard for one of these facilities to ever even come into our township. But the
reasoning behind this ordinance is to define what a data center is and prohibit it so that no one could ever argue that one of the permitted uses could be explained as a data center. These facilities are popping up all over New Jersey and they're causing a lot of
harm to the environment in our township. That's something that we take very seriously. At least I always have having grown up here. Nature is kind of the backbone of our community. So I just wanted to be proactive and make sure that this is something prohibited before
it ever even becomes a talking point. And I understand that data centers are a very complex issue. There are large scale data centers, small data centers, and a lot of data centers that I could never explain. Um, but we don't want them here. At least I definitely don't. And I feel like the majority of our
community wouldn't. >> So that's why I wrote this. >> But but your definition allows minimal smaller ones. >> Yeah. Like the data room. >> You're not precluding them out. >> Yeah. Like a server room at the in the school system or um the WVT building in
Highland Lakes. that doesn't count as a data center as per this definition. >> So you haven't I mean that's a good thing that so your version is not arbitrary or capriccious. >> Yeah, I made sure it was very very airtight the way that it was worded. >> Thank you.
>> Public comments. Anyone from the public care to address any issue, any subject? Five minutes. >> Hi Joanne Fl. Sorry, I'm full of mud. My pushan got out of the pool and decided to jump on me when I got in the car. I want to uh Mr. Higgins, I want to just
as an exorganic farmer, a farmed the 500 acre farm, you said farms, uh you know, abandoned farms, etc. Soil is like an organ in the body and once you start messing with it, it's very hard to
recover. I would really, you know, and Mr. Contino making this um ordinance will be perfect because here we have such a delicate ecosystem. We have endangered
species, etc. Uh I'm certified in the state of New Jersey to survey for threatened and endangered species. But please understand that our farmlands once they are no longer farmlands. It's not something with a bulldozer, tear
down whatever structure and then rearm. So I I just want that to stay in people's minds because right now it's it's more important than ever to keep our farms and our land the way they are pristine. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Name and location.
Are you from Vernon? >> Mr. Higgins. >> Yes. >> Lauren is reminded that we didn't have a motion to go into open. So, you want to just do that now. >> Okay. We'll reverse your comments. Stay. >> Yeah. >> Have a motion to go into open. >> Moved. >> Second.
>> All in favor? >> I. >> Next up, Peg. >> Peg Dassy. I'm here tonight to address the matter of fundamental governance, specifically the invisible line between receiving
legal advice and executing political orders. Under our former government, the town council is the supreme legislative body of this municipality. The council president is chosen by this
body to lead your independent branch. The town attorney is hired by the mayor to advise on the legality of your actions, not to dictate them. Lately, however, the public has observed a
troubling dynamic in this chamber. It has become increasingly difficult to tell where the town's attorney's legal council ends and the council president's leadership begins. We see in the
choreography of these meetings, we see it when the council president hesitates, looks to the attorney for a nod of approval before making a procedural move or managing public comments. We see it
when the independent counsel members are deafly deflected not by the chair but by the attorneys stepping in to control the narrative. Let it be clear when a hired attorney
tells the elected head of our government legislative branch how to run a meeting, what to say, and how to handle the public. The statutory checks and balances of our township have
been broken. The attorney represents the municipal corporation. They do not hold a seat on this council and they were not elected by the voters of this township. to the council president, your fellow
council people elected to exercise independent judgment and to protect the legislative integrity of your body. When you allow the mayor's appointed legal counsel to pull the
strings, you advocate the authority given to you by the people. To the rest of the council, you are not spectators of our government. If you sit by silently while the leadership of this council is cor choreographed from the
sidelines, you are allowing the executive branch and its appointees to shallow your legislative power. It is time to reestablish the boundary. The attorney provides legal guard rails. The
council provides the direction. I urge this body to remember who you work for, who elected you, reclaim your independence, and stop letting the attorney and the mayor run the council from behind the curtain. You're not here
to be friends. You are here to work together. You are here to be the needed checks and balances to protect the council, the town people. Thank you. >> Any other comments?
Dorian, >> Dorian Edwards, Highland Lakes, still have a habit of talking. >> Um, while Peg had some good points, I disagreed to a certain extent. The reason we have an attorney and we pay for an attorney is for legal divi legal
advice. you up on the council are not going to know everything that's going to come up during a meeting. You're not always going to know the right answer legalities. So, if something does come up and you're questionable at it, then say the attorney, can I see something in
writing in regards to that ruling or whatever it may be? But um I for one um am very glad that um you feel I I get that you feel like you could all speak your mind up there and I'm glad for
that. Don't ever let that change because that's very important. So I think you guys are doing a good job collectively. Um and and and I just hope again you just keep the taxpayer in mind going forward on on whatever you do. Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Anyone else? Yep. Good evening. My name is Barbara Hunter. I've been a uh a resident of Vernon since 1978
and I just want to quickly commend you for taking on the issue of data centers head on. Um, as a retired person, I have an opportunity to read a lot. And I the stories of the damage that these done to
towns like ours, nowhere has come close to any money that they can possibly offer. And out of all the articles I have read, I've not come up with one town saying, "Hey, this was a great idea." So again,
I thank you for taking this on and making sure very clearly that data centers are not wanted here. Thank you again. >> Thank you. Anyone else? Seeing no one else, we'll close the
portion of the meeting for public comment. And do we have a motion? >> Second. >> And a second. All all in favor I >> number 13 council comments. We'll start with Carl at the end.
>> It doesn't just just want to just add real quick that it is part of the budget to resolve the audio and video problems in the courtroom. So it >> that's the biggest news of the day. >> Yeah. So soon as soon as we pass the
budget, we'll we'll we'll go out and on and get that resolved. Okay. But we did have somebody in there who kind of maintains the the microphones and speakers. He was in there for a whole day working in there. But so I guess
they're not working again. But so it's time for an upgrade. But but it is we'll get that re fixed this year. So >> good. Thank you. >> You got it. >> Back to Mr. Cino. So, I'm very glad that
the data center ban went through and I'm really I want to thank everyone on the council with me for working with me on that because it was a lot of explaining, but I'm really glad that we got it through and I'm really glad that everyone was um that it was something we
all agreed on that that's not something we want in our township. I am also disappointed that we did not do the hiring freeze and I hope to see that on the agenda for our next meeting um because I still feel it's something we
should be doing and it seems to be a majority of us would like to see that done. So I'd really like for that to be on the agenda. I appreciate the discussion we had about it but I still feel like we should have just voted on it. Um, and something else I wanted to
point out, I'm really glad that we got um, pretty much a positions control roster for this month. The only thing that's not on it that we asked for was the salary of each employee. And part of the reason that this was such an important document to have is because as
we vet the budget and we look at each bucket and we see how much each department needs in terms of salaries and wages, the only way that we can really check that and make sure those numbers are accurate is by looking at a position control roster and seeing who
works in the clerk's office, who works in finance, who works in that department, how much do they make? Okay, let's add up the salaries. Does it come out to the number that is being proposed in the budget? And you know, most of the time they do, but I have found a couple
things that I wanted questions answered about. And I was really hoping that this list could help provide more clarity, but it doesn't include the salaries. And that's arguably the most important thing on the document, especially around budget season. So, and if I'm not
mistaken, that was in the resolution we voted on for an employee census or position control roster was to include the salary. So, I just want to know why that's not in there. Um, and I want to thank everyone for coming
out and speaking their mind and showing their interest and support. It's awesome to see a lot of new faces here tonight. Um, and the one other thing I Oh, the Vernon experiential. I'm sorry I couldn't make it to that. I
was on the economic development committee and I want to thank everyone who worked on that project. And did anyone here go to that? I know Pat did. How was it? >> Fine. It was great. Mr. O, council president, Mr. Higgins, was
also there. U, I found it very, very informative. I I think it provided a uh a basis for uh people to look at what they're doing if they're small business
owners in the community and to look at what the state government and also the federal government has made available to these individuals for with small businesses. I was quite surprised at some of the things that were that were pointed out.
Uh, as a matter of fact, just as a short aside, uh, there was a lady there from the, uh, federal government for the, uh, Farmer's Home Administration. Maybe it was a slightly different name,
but it caused me to smile and go up to her because when I moved into this community uh in 1978, I'm sorry, 68. >> Oh my. Uh, I was informed by a very close friend
that I could have my home constructed uh by without having to had the down more than just a down payment and that all I needed to have was a piece of property. So, I looked into it and sure
enough, I was able to do that. And I told this lady, I said, "How wonderful it was that the federal government in order to put some uh growth into rural townships." And if you go back to 1968
in Vernon Township, I always like to say there was like 25,000 cows in 4,000 people. Now it's kind of come the other way. and that uh when these uh when this
program was instituted the following two weeks after that after I signed my my contract the um and bought the lot, Playboy Club closed their deal and all
of a sudden property values jumped. Now they didn't jump an awful lot, but they jumped substantially. And I told her I was really appreciative of the help that the federal government gave to my family, my young family and my wife and I. And that uh um she she started
laughing and she started taking notes on it. So, uh, right now there are still programs available to young families within certain, uh, economic
guide rails that can be made available and I think uh, people ought to look to that and and see what can be done. Um, but uh, as I said, it was a great opportunity that that evening, Wednesday evening. Uh
uh I think that uh both Mr. Higgins and I uh were very pleased at the turnout uh and also some of the issues that have been discussed and what we can do going forward to uh make Vernon uh more uh
attractive to uh businesses and uh and what they're planning to do. And I agree. I agree Pat. They uh they they did a fantastic job uh putting that together. So kudos to the economic development advisory
committee for uh for putting all that together. >> Yes, I was going to make come to that. >> Thank you Mountain Creek for hosting it. >> I'm see I'm sorry. >> I said thank you to Mountain Creek for hosting it for us. >> Yes, I know. I know you were there. Uh I
was seated behind you. No, >> but the uh the issue that we would like to have is this uh recognition that the people who are in our community, the the the business owners, the larger business
owners, they think an awful lot of our township. And to them, this type of uh recognition that we bring to them is something that they they appreciate because it helps their business when
they they move forward and there are a lot of projects that are going to come very very soon. Thank you, >> Miss Homes. Uh, no comment, but just if you're interested in the data centers,
um, when it comes up at land use, you should attend because they can make changes or you can represent yourself at land use. That would be very important. A lot of things slip by because no one pays attention to the
land use and a lot of decisions are made there. Then it comes to the council again and then everybody says wait what happened and they missed that land use. So it's very important that you attend and and also state what you feel about
it to the land use board just saying so that's all I have to say but thank you >> council if I may just say um I thought you were gonna turn the floor over to Mr. Canillo. Uh
I would like to tell the the community first that our 250th anniversary is coming up as a country and that uh uh I I I will not be able to attend the parade. Uh this is kind of the first I
won't be able to make. Last year I was riding around in a yellow Corvette, but uh I'm going to be out of town and not hearing of any uh uh any schedule for a parade. I I assume
that there wasn't going to be one this year, but uh so my apologies to the public and to the township that I won't be there and uh look forward to uh hearing good things about the parade. Enjoy yourselves.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Spark. >> I was actually going to mention at the parade it's Bill, Pat, and I have walked in as Natalie and and Pegged as well when she served. So, um hopefully Carl and Sandy can join as well. I don't know if Bill's planning on going this year or
not, but um they are forecasting rain this year. So, granted, it is seven days away, but um you know, hopefully you guys can make it and walk down Main Street to the flats with us. It's a great day. Walk down the road and see the community coming out supporting
everybody um behind us. So, um that's all. >> Thank you. Have a few comments. First, I'd like to uh make a couple comments about Mr. Stacey's comments. >> And uh we are not lawyers. We're elected
officials. We have an attorney who's knows the law. He uh he gives us advice. I'm here to ask for advice when I need it, and I'll continue to do that. You've been on the council. You know, you know how it runs. You had votes yourself.
People didn't agree with you. Others, they do agree with you. you have an opinion, but opinion is a lot of time based on fact. And there are other council members who even tonight said, I don't know why the hiring freeze isn't on the agenda. Well, it's not on the agenda because I made a decision as a
council president not to put it on the agenda because of what Mr. King said as a statement of law. He's now agreed to go back and give us a case law. And that's the way the process works. It doesn't work by simply saying we're overrunning the public and uh and
allowing the council's uh reason for being to be handed over to an attorney. That's not the case. I was misstated my opinion on what you said, but you're entitled to your opinion. the uh
the uh example of the land use port. I really thank everybody for coming out and it really is interesting when you go to land use sport because things that occur in town, new buildings being proposed, towers, communication towers, a car wash. Now car wash you wouldn't
think is a big deal but after you see the rendition of the drawing of the car wash that will be in the center of town where the old car wash is nothing like the old car wash. The old car wash was a repair station with a single lane in the
back. This is a modern state uh car wash that's electronic and it's really going to help the appearance of the town. You see that when you go to the land use board professionals run it. I'm on the land use board as a member of the committee. The mayor's on it and there
are different subjects that are brought up and the professionals run it from our uh land use people that are knowing the law the uh the town's uh town center ordinances, the sewer ordinances and all
the land use regulations. So, it's it's really it's an educational uh time to go there and just check it out. You'll see some meetings have one or two items. Others whenever it was a big subject about the 55 and over building or the
Omega Drive building, all those professional people were there a number of times, renditions, drawings, professionals, architects to land use people, all answering questions and uh and the public's entitled to ask those
questions as well. So, it's really good. And uh the uh the budget, we'll be voting on the budget at the next meeting. We've had many many discussions on it. It's right now currently just under 6% increase and there's still a
little work to do if we want to dig into it. Mol came up with a question for me today and it had to do with salaries. One of the questions on the budget and I asked the CFO a couple weeks ago when we had a meeting are the proposed raises in
the numbers that she put in the budget. Well, the answer is yes. So, they're in there and if additional money is going to be uh added to it that that would be handled separately to give the new salary that the person's getting. So, in
other words, if a person's at 100,000, it's showing a h 100,000. there's another fund that's going to add the money to that person's h 100,000 to give them their new salary. So, but Miss Holmes had a question and it had to do with there were extra funds that you saw
in the budget. >> Well, I still have a question because you made a line item for the raises, but there's still a lot of money sitting in the department salary. Well, that would be for the people that are have a
contract, but it's a lot of money still sitting there. So, even though, for example, one person is going to get a raise from that line item that's 50,000, right? That was reserved, some people are going to get a raise
from the line item under salary under their department, right? But there's a lot of money there, >> a contractual raise, >> right? There's union and non-union, >> right? But even accounting for that, there's still a lot of money there that
could still be given out if we leave it sixer. >> Okay. So, that's that's something in the next two weeks we'll have to define. But there is extra money and the budget could come down slightly if that money is duplicated. >> I mean, I've been asking this and
nothing's changed. So, maybe Mr. King can also take a look how to amend the budget. I know there's certain things you have to think about when you're amending the budget before adoption. I mean, I looked into it. It can be
done. >> Did Did you send the CFO that question? I've been going through. >> She has asked that question. I've heard her ask that question myself. We haven't gotten an answer to it yet. >> Can Can you send an email? Uh you can
send an email to the CFO just CC me on it. We'll get you the answer for that. >> Um >> well, we've discussed it at the budget meetings also. >> All right. We discussed a lot of things. people getting raises, but why is that
money should be taken off that line item in under the department? I from what I understood those line every line item that those raises were taken out but instead of going back and adding those
raises they created a salary adjustment uh line item one line item that it will go to and then be distributed from there not going back but also understand too any significant change in the budget at this point um
and I'm talking significant you would have to reintroduce the budget again. >> No, there is a way you can make amendment before you adopt it. So, no, it doesn't have to be reintroded provided that amendment is within a certain
percentage. Otherwise, if it's greater than that amount, that's what amount >> the amount that the uh that the statute allows, then you have to reintroduce the budget. >> Yeah, I have it. it it seemed like something we could do, but
>> depends on how much you're willing to move around with with the budget. If you're going to make there's a percentage I I I spoke with the auditor on this and they're they're very very concerned, but that number has to be
within the amount that was specified in the uh the regulations from the state. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Well, that's what I'm asking him to do, >> right? >> Um, so we can make amendments and if we have to we have to reintroduce it. >> We've been talking about this since we
were talking about the the budget and no one's changed anything. I mean, that was a concern from the very beginning >> that there's a lot of money sitting in these departments for salaries when they should be included in that 50 line item.
If they're non management people and there's money there, it's not designed for them. It's designed for the union people. Correct. For the non-UN people. Correct. >> So, we'll we'll determine if that's what that money's for. >> Correct. But there's quite a bit. Unless these people are getting really big
raises. There's a lot of money sitting here. >> If there is, we'll find it and uh do a great thing with it. I feel that this is a better segue to even talk about the salary ordinance >> because I did that um training session about a month ago and they said in that
training session that with the budget prior to the budget you should be reviewing your salary ordinance along with the budget >> just as housekeeping and I feel that this conversation about there's concern that oh this money could be used for
this person to get a raise that's not here. If you have a better restricted salary ordinance or if you're reviewing the salary ordinance and you're comfortable with the ranges, then that kind of becomes a separate point. >> Well, it could be solved that way, too.
>> I think that if if we're concerned about that, it might be a better way a better way to solve that issue as opposed to amending the budget would be to review the salary ordinance. And I do think we're past due for doing that. Well, there's also a thing called
management and personal relationships. >> And if I was and there's been three meetings that we've had talking about salary freezes, salary ordinances, uh hiring freezes, >> uh censuses,
it got nowhere. Three meetings and it was enough in my mind as the council president. That was enough. So, I met with the mayor and we said, "Let's get something on paper that makes heads and uh and that's why you got a listing of
the employees, their date of hire, and the information you needed." And so, all I heard tonight was that the salaries aren't on there. >> Yeah. >> But you have the salaries. It was presented to you in a different form on a different piece of paper. If you want the salaries, it was provided in the
budget. You have the salaries. >> No, Bill. We don't know everybody's salary. >> They gave us a list from the um workman's compensation that includes salaries. Yes. And in the budget, you can see how many people work in the
department and how much money is allocated. But that list that was given to us from workman's comp is from last year. It doesn't reflect their increments. It it's not an accurate list. It also doesn't have a date on it and it's been proven inaccurate and I
remember talking about this at the work session. So, it's really important that we have the salaries on the list and you just >> we will we will have the salaries but it won't be on that list. >> Wait, Bill, let me finish. >> Where will it be? >> It'll be in your hand on a separate piece of paper and you can look the
name. >> Bill, you said before that the list you gave us what we asked for and what we needed. You gave us 85 to 90% of what we asked for as a council through a resolution that we voted for and I appreciate that but it doesn't have the
salaries and we voted on asking for the salaries. So I just want a list with the salaries. >> You understand that after all those meetings with the mayor talking to him you got nothing. >> Yeah, we didn't. >> So you got nothing. So that's why I interjected myself with the mayor and I
said, "We have to get off of this train that we're on and come up with something that makes sense." The compromise was to come up with the list that you have and you'll have a separate salary list and they won't be on the same piece of paper. When you were on the board of ed, you didn't list all the employees
salaries on every meeting. You never listed except when it was you had a you had a piece of paper that listed the number of employees in each department pluses or minuses how many people were added, right? >> The bill >> that was I No, I'm I'm asking a
question. You didn't show the salaries all the time. There's no reason to show the salaries every meeting for every employee in the town. I see no reason for it. All the other information is very important. If you know the salaries and there's a salary ordinance, then you're on the council. you deal with it.
Have two pieces of paper rather than one. That was my compromise. You can sit here and laugh all you want and and I've tried to get some and to to deal with the mayor on things like this have been very difficult and this was the compromise and it came as about. So you
can criticize all you want and you didn't get anywhere with your salary thing. So sit there and laugh. >> I am laughing. You have it right to ask for a report. >> You asked for it. I answered the question. I gave you the rale what you got. another call >> and move move forward. I'm not going to
sit here >> and in August talk about the same things we spoke about in January. >> Let me finish. But >> oh my gosh, we just want what we asked for. That's all. >> You were given this information a couple of times.
>> You were given all this information we got was wrong. >> I want >> That's why we can't get a straight answer from anything. I want I want to finish what I was saying because I have a point that I haven't been able to make. We have not received an accurate
up-to-date list of all the employee salaries yet that has not been given to us. We were given a list from workman's compensation and we were given this list. I appreciate those lists. I'm not trying to criticize or be a pain in the
butt, but to me, having an upto-date list of what everyone's making as you're approving the budget is kind of important. And we don't have one. And that's not something that you can really refute. I mean, if I talk to I mean, the
mayor has seen I send emails to him and Patty and I ask for particular departments and they give me all that information when I ask for it. It's not like they're gatekeeping it, but why can't I just get it all on one big >> piece of paper?
>> I don't I don't get why that's a big lift. And yes, we've been talking about it forever, but we also took a very long time to vote on the resolution and we voted on the resolution. The resolution expressed what we wanted in the report and we didn't get it. I think I'm
perfectly justified in being a bit frustrated. I'm not trying to criticize you. It's not personal at all. I just want what we asked for. I don't think that that's unreasonable and I'm a bit frustrated by it. And you know, we're asking for things and yeah, sometimes we
get nowhere, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to give up. >> Is it a lesson in civics that maybe you've asked for it four times, the mayor hasn't given it to you because he doesn't have to give it to you. Maybe that was maybe that was the message here. >> A bill that doesn't
>> He have the right to ask for a report. You've asked for it and I'm asking him to give it to us and he hasn't given it to us. >> But Bill, what do you want me to do? >> You give up. >> That doesn't mean you give up. When you give up then what's >> Nobody's giving up. >> We get We'll get a current list of
Enough. Okay. The Enough Enough. This is embarrassing to even have the conversation. >> I'm not going to give up. >> Mr. Mr. Mayor, you have any comments to make on providing a updated list of the salaries as soon as the budget is approved?
>> We'll we'll we'll get it um for the next meeting. Um but like I said, we that's from what I understand from the payroll clerk that this information has been given twice um with the payroll and and with the salaries
and and the positions. So that's that's what she told me. Can I ask a question please? >> Mr. is it possible for the uh information to
be taken from the payroll records? All of our payroll stubs show an accumulative accumulative amount. >> No, no, they don't. >> At the end of the year. >> No, I have them. They do not have the end the gross salary at the end at the
last pay period. I have them. They're not on there. >> Otherwise, I would have made my own spreadsheet. They don't put your gross salary at the lad's pay period. >> It's funny. I >> a past a payub doesn't have a gross salary on the end. >> I will send you what I've got. They
don't have them. >> No. Otherwise, I would have made my own list >> at the end of the year. Don't Isn't there a cumulative amount? >> Nope. I'll send you what they gave me. Nope. >> I can't believe that. >> But weren't you given a list of of the workers comp? Yeah, but the problem with that
>> that was was that 2025? >> 2025. So when we're check like the only reason that I'm so adamant about asking for this is because as you're looking through the sub accounts on the budget, the way that I would cross-examine each line for salaries and wages is by
looking at how many people work in the department and adding up their salaries. And it's not like that's I'm not trying to find something. I just >> Carl, I understand, but I would think that the workers comp because it's a state. >> They weren't correct. >> It's like it should be correct because
that's what >> it is. There's no date on it. So, we don't know is that before they got a raise in 25 or so there was no date on any of those pages and we have >> confirmation that there they are wrong in some of the areas.
>> It's it's not that it's incorrect, it's that it's out ofd. And the numbers that are being used to create the 2026 budget include increments and raises that you can't see in that. So when you add them up, they almost always come to a smaller
number. And also, especially when it comes to non-union and non-stutory races, I just want to look at what's going on and ask questions about it. I feel like that's just kind of our our role as a governing body. And I can't do
that if I can't see what everyone's increment is and if I can't see what everyone's making. And I I don't I understand that it's been sent to us in a couple different forms, but it hasn't been sent to us in the form we've asked. And I just want to make that clear.
>> So why don't you take Why don't you take the information and put it into a form of your liking? I I that >> because I don't have the information. Mayor, >> you were given the information. No, I've been given the information for the departments that I asked Patty for specifically. I
>> He's given it to every employee. >> Yeah, but it's out of date. I just said that. >> What What did he say about an employee? >> He said that it's that I could put it in a format that I like with the information that they've given. And what I'm telling you is I haven't been given everyone's salary for 2026.
>> Let me put this to rest. I I will get you the what you got with the with the salaries >> for budget for your budget concern. >> That's all I'm asking. Thank you. I I I
>> But we wanted it updated every month. >> Yeah. Doesn't change. >> That's That's ridiculous. Come on. >> No, it's not. I understand I understand for budget reasons you you want that but for every month >> why why is it a secret that we know >> not a secret >> or not working it's
>> not a secret >> well it seems like it is going to be >> not a secret it's public information you know that >> somebody leaves we would like to know it if somebody's being added we'd like to know it >> wouldn't it be easier to just tell us I >> I just >> I don't know why you think this is See this is the problem you think that this
is secretive you think we're hiding things you think we're giving all this big money out and hiring 20 people to be forthcoming. It's such an easy task. >> Then you do it. I'll give you the info. You can put it into the Excel, Word, PowerPoint. You can do whatever you want
with it, Sandy. >> Great. Well, make me a list of the people. >> I'll send you the info. >> You can innovate yourself with Excel spreadsheets. I'm not, but you can. But I'll get you the salary stuff like I
told you. I'll get you the uh would you not >> to be updated and that was what the res >> if it doesn't change I don't get why you wouldn't just leave it on there and if it's something we're asking for isn't it easier to just tell us especially I don't think there's a whole lot
>> I had this discussion with council president an agenda meeting and we talked about >> I think we can agree that we will get it at the next meeting we will see the salaries on the spreadsheet and they'll be kept updated I think that's a very reasonable thing and I think we can move
on with that being the agreement. Do we all agree >> what that it be updated >> that we just get what we're asking for? >> Yes. And it get updated. >> I don't think it's that complicated or that difficult to understand. But I don't I I I don't want to talk about
anymore. >> I'm sick of this. >> Good idea. >> All right. Any other comments? Different subjects? >> No. >> I have a motion to adjurnn. Moved. >> Second. Good night. >> All in favor? >> I
will. I'm gonna give you this and I'm gonna redo this. Read it and I'm going to redo this. I'm going to ask you to put it on the agenda.