They need a nurse >> now. They have the ENT out. All right. >> They're out there when I walked in. >> Should we postpone the meeting with them? >> Is that >> I don't know. No, because I guess we can tell what needs I don't know now.
>> Yeah. Without the CFO here and get Huh. >> Yeah. Well, I hope he's okay. Let me call Bill and see what he wants to do. >> Yeah, >> he's uh think he's online, but it's better to have the conversation on air,
I think. >> Yeah, >> we have to we'll just start the meeting and then >> Yeah, >> cancel. We got to call. Yep. I hope she's okay. return.
Never know. >> I don't know how we'd have this meeting without >> We can't possible >> because all we're going to do is just throw out a bunch of questions, not get any answers. Yeah, it says, >> you know, and and the thing is as far as scheduling it, you know,
schedu >> Yeah, but I'm I'm flying to Houston on Monday. I changed my flight so I get there and zoom in. >> But with everything that's going on with the lines, you know, who knows? Because I I'm What am I landing there? I think
I'm landing there. 5:30 here. >> 135. saw l >> Oh, good grief. >> I need I need a copy of the agenda. >> The other thing is to
>> So, I don't know. She went home a little while. She said she has chest pain. >> Well, you know what they do is they just have to do tronin levels on her. Her troopin is gone. She didn't have a heart
attack. She'll be back tomorrow. >> Sorry. I know the deal. >> We still have to plan. >> Let me get the agenda. >> Yeah. Oh, I thought you were coming. Yeah. You have a coffee.
>> I have a I have a coffee. Yeah, but I have your agenda. >> Okay, thank you. >> No, all I have is the agenda. >> If you need one, >> I just didn't want to. >> Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. It's right here.
Here, Sandra. One sec. >> I'm going. Thank you. >> That's the the one with the >> Okay. Do you want a regular one, too? >> Um, I don't think so. >> No. >> So, the public comment, if we continue on, maybe we I don't know if we should
put that at the end so they can listen to everything first and then make public comments. >> Make a suggestion. Why don't we have to hold anyway before we cancel because we can't cancel at this point in
time. >> Oh, no. Because we have people on Zoom and they'll be like, "What are you doing?" >> Why don't we move public here? Why don't we listen to what people have to say >> and then open it up again? >> Well, no. I'm just I mean, we can discuss the budget, but we're not going
to get any answers. So, I'm thinking let the public talk. Maybe we could just have our council comments and then not even do the because it's just answers. You know, >> he didn't pick up. I texted him. So,
>> let me see if he text me back. >> But I think public convers. >> He's saying he can hear what we're saying. So, yes, I can hear that. >> I can't see him. Bill, I can't see you.
>> Um, >> okay. >> Okay. I'd like to call this meeting to order. Will the township clerk please read the statement? Adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to has adequate notice of this meeting has been placed on the Vernon Township website
and was posted on the bulletin board in the municipal building in accordance with the open public meetings act NJSA 10 col4-7. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the 2026 council budget. >> Roll call.
>> Council member Canino >> here. >> Council member Ols >> here. Council member Rzudo, >> he's walking in the door as we speak. >> Okay. Council member Sparta >> present. >> Council member Higgins >> online. >> I see none on Bill.
But he's not on. >> That's okay. Salute to the flag. Algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all. >> Mayor, do you have any comments? >> No comments. Okay, I'd like to open the floor to public comment. I have a motion. >> Move. Second.
>> Anybody from the audience wish to comment? Come up to the pony and comment. No. Like to make a motion to close public comment. >> Moved. Second. Okay, we'll start with department heads.
Um, >> so Tom, Fire Marshall Van Louven, would you like to come up and speak to us? >> Hold on. >> Um, you guys have any questions for Tom?
>> Um, let me pull up that section. >> Yeah. question is that >> fire prevention >> 19 that's the reason we should have known it wasn't >> um give us a minute I asked if if anybody had questions for
him Okay. >> I just if I could one second I I want to apologize. I I left a loved one in the ER to come to the meeting. That was a call I had to take. So I want to apologize to the public for that. Apologies.
>> You all right? Brett, you okay? >> Hopefully. >> Okay. >> Okay. You got the floor. >> I'm just here if you have any questions for me, honestly. >> Okay. So, I do have a question. So I see in your salary um and this is under just
the fire prevention not volunteer uh an increase of approximately $19,000 per salary. Um first of all how many people are in your department that I don't know
>> I only have from 25 to 26. >> Let's take a look. So year to date is spent 2011632 and this year proposed is 220. So the difference there, what is that going to be used for?
>> Um well I have two part-time cler one part-time clerk and two part-time inspectors. So inspectors um can work up to 28 hours a week. >> Wait, slow down. Two inspectors and you're the department head? Yes.
>> Okay. Thank you. Okay. So, this money is going to be used for the salaries then and how much are >> like I said they they can work 28 hours a week they mean they do if we're not
busy enough for 28 hours that week they don't work 28 hours that's probably >> 28. Okay. So your part time all all of your part- timerrs then are 28 hours >> because you have two part-time and two inspectors that are part-time. >> And what do you guys consider full-time?
>> 35 hours. >> But you do have one full-timer. >> I have one full-time clerk. Yes. But the uh >> my two inspectors >> their salary doesn't constant because they work hourly. So And how okay
>> um if there's a holiday they don't get paid holidays storm days they don't get paid for storm days. So they they don't they're budgeted for 28 hours on a you know five day week but they don't necessarily get paid that >> that's why there's a difference in what was budgeted and what was spent.
>> I only have one question. So I see for 2025 computer services in your OE was 2500 but then this year it's 8100. That's the largest um increase. >> I mean, if you see what was actually spent, last year was the first year I
actually did the budget. >> Oh, yeah. I can see >> what was the year before and it came in a lot higher. So, we had to move some money from some other accounts to cover it. >> Yeah. >> For SDL budgets, licenses. >> Yeah. And the year before that it was
6,000 was budgeted. >> Yeah. I don't really know honestly why it went up so much, but >> Yeah. Yeah, because then in 2025 it was 2500 but then this year it's 8,100. That make All right. Thank you.
>> What does that go towards? >> Um we have to pay for a license for each person who uses the software for that's how we do our inspections input our inspections. My department also oversees the short and long-term rentals. That's all in
that system. >> It's an internal management uh government program. >> Thank you. So, I don't know if you can answer this question or not because you you just started last year. When did you start? >> Um, I worked here for about five years. I took over as fire marshall full-time
last year and kind of intermed while my predecessor was out sick. >> Okay. Um, in 24 the budget was 184,000 for payroll and it jumped up to 216 and 25.
What What was that huge increase for to $32,000? that >> I mean that seems to be that's a 15% raise approximately in one year and I mean was there an increase in staff during that time? >> Uh I know my part-time inspector hadn't
gotten a raise since he started each 10 years. So he went from 20 to 25 an hour. But as far as the rest, I'm going to guess it's conf factual because >> even even a $5 raise of 30 hours a week,
it's you're talking6 or $7,000. I was there was there's been no employees added to this department in over that time. It was well we lost one but we replaced it with a part-timer but we also increased um an employee um
because again they were put with all of that extra workload on. So kept within the parameters of depths of the uni contract. >> Did we add an employee or not add an employee because you said we just add an employee but he says everything was
kept. We've had one full-time clerk and one part-time clerk. Our one full-time clerk moved over, so we got another full-time. We still have one and one. One full-time clerk, one part-time clerk. >> Yeah. >> So, we don't have the same two that we had before, but we still have two. >> Where did that one go?
>> Uh, it was she went down to zone. >> Oh, okay. >> So, you have four, six people in your department. >> No. >> No. uh including me. Five. >> You have a full-time clerk, two
inspectors, two part-time, and one department head. >> I have a full-time clerk, a part-time clerk, two part-time inspectors, and myself. >> Oh, okay. So, you have four, two, three, five. No, you still have four or five. >> Five.
>> Okay. So, everybody's looking at a pretty significant raise there with that increase. >> Well, my part- timerrs don't necessarily automatically get a raise. No. >> Okay. All right. So, who would be getting a raise? >> The only one contractually needed to get
a raise is full clerk. >> And she's okay. >> So, she's getting a big raise possibly. >> No, not necessarily. Whatever she's getting, whatever her contract is, >> it's 216 to 220, right?
No, it's 20 2011, >> right? Well, like I said, that 2011 was because what was budgeted didn't necessarily get spent >> because of the way the part-timers out was working. >> Okay. Anybody else have questions?
>> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay, Lindsay Palano. >> I am the administrator, Lindsay. >> Could you speak just a little louder, please? Thank you. >> The microphones aren't working.
>> Yeah. What tab is it? >> This is tab seven, right? General administration. >> General administration, right? >> No, no, >> sorry. Um 22.
>> I was looking at the line item. There seems to be a significant increase of $16,000. >> No, it's not 19 either, is it? Now there there does look like there is a an increase but in reality it's only a $450
increase items from previous years that were requested and budgeted and then this in the past were not been left at zero. So it's over $2,000 increased reality it was only $450.
What's that number one two? Yeah. because what we see is 2025 year to date 59 um19 25 budget 7600 26 proposed 9,000. >> Okay. Yeah. So for the 2025 budget the
7600 um there were there was $1,000 that was completely left out that should have been there that has was supposed to be there in the prior years. It's for alternate judge. It's in the event that
our municipal court judge is ill or he can't make it. >> I see that >> we need coverage. It was requested. It was I thought it was in there and it wasn't by statute with the municipal courts. It has to be in there. Um it was
not in there. I can't speak to that. That would be the prior CFO who prepared that budget. So that accounts for the difference that >> correct by you. So >> it's something that should have been there but >> okay thank you. >> So there should be a line item on the
revenues for um the fence courts fines and costs. Okay. Give me one second. Just going along on that. We had a uh in uh
25 we had an actual of 56 almost about 56. it was at uh and then the the uh the budget proposed budget for 25 was 60. So we're about
you're figuring about the same basically $55,000 for the >> revenue. for the revenues >> for for the revenues. >> Yeah, >> I had for um 2025 we were up
>> I keep my own personal >> Oh, perfect. That's great. >> Um everything that I get from 2024 to 2025, we had an increase of revenue of $25,273 paid to the township.
>> So how much was that? $25,273 difference from 2024 to 2025. >> And what was you have to an increase? >> Yeah. >> A $25,000 increase >> of of revenue that we took in municipal courts. >> So what was the total number?
>> So that doesn't match what we have here. >> I can make you all copies. >> Well, just give us the number. >> What was the total number you got in court finding 625? So, the total number that was collected was $147,185, but you have to take the county takes a
split. Um, so paid to the township was $95,646. >> Okay. And we're only budgeting 55. I guess we're expecting that people be more lawabiding in 26 than we are in. >> Yeah, that should be >> I mean, >> a little higher. So far this year, for
the couple months we're in, it's better than past years. >> What do you have so far this year? >> Uh I didn't print that out this year, but for this month, just handed to the town was for $9,000 for just the month of March.
>> So if that was >> And then the county got 3,000 of the dollars. So >> So it seems like that revenue could be boosted up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that could go up. >> So
something like that would come to >> what to boost revenue. >> Yeah, >> that would be >> using using what you did last year and your experience. >> Well, our our revenue is based on the income from the tickets issue and
citations. Um, so whatever. I mean, she she's saying that they that the town got a check for over $95,000. We're only budgeting 55. >> Yeah. >> I think at the very very least you could budget 85. >> Yeah. >> And still be protected.
>> I agree. >> Patty may have to change that number like she did for the others. So, that needs to be addressed. >> I can email you all a copy and I'll make one and I I keep it on the email for a month by month. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Yes. What was that number that you guys suggested? >> Uh 85. >> Seeing what I've been seeing the last few days of this week because there going to be more. They're all our boys in blue are really out there. >> Yeah, they are. On my way to work. I see
them. Um anybody have any questions? >> Thank you for all the information. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Thanks, Lindsay. >> Uh, Mr. Paul Black, would you like to come up? >> He's with building.
>> Six. >> Thank you. Bye. So in 2025 actual payroll actual salaries >> what is the tap >> 16 >> 16 >> was $140,400.
We're budgeting $200,000 this year. is what? Why are why are we going to be spending 33% more this year than we did last year? >> What what sheet are you looking at? The building department. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I was You said 16. I went to 15.
people are in your department. >> How many people are in your department? >> Including myself, six full-time, one part time, Mitch So I see a discrepancy. There was um
2025 year to date 508 thou um 508,000 but budgeted for 520. Then this year we're proposing almost 560. Is that 508 to 520? Is that because of part- timerrs
or >> take a look at it? >> Salaries, I'm sorry. Salaries and wages. Cuz last year 508,000 was spent, but this year we're budgeting 560. >> Yeah, I don't think that number is
correct. >> 560. I >> think it's 520. 525 is 520. >> I'm not sure what the >> Yeah, because it's >> I'm looking at this salary, regular salaries, right?
>> 2025 is 520. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then the budget is 559. >> So everyone in the office is contractual except for him. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. Well, the um >> and the part-timer,
>> the ladies in the office, two technical assistants, and um administrative clerk are union. >> Mhm. >> Me, um plumbing sub code, the fire and the electric sub code are we're civil service. >> Yeah.
>> We're not um >> union. >> Union. >> So, there's only three people in the union in the department, >> correct? So, but yeah, because then you're going from 520 to 560. That's almost a $40,000 increase >> for three people.
>> Well, you have the the 3% raises, right, across the board. >> And then I have a part-time inspector who I'm adding four hours a week. He last year we budgeted for 12 hours a week. So, that if you do the math there,
you're like at $45 an hour. That's for around $9,000. >> So he's going from you said four hours to 12 hours. >> Yeah, he was he was doing roughly 12 hours a week. That's what we were allowed last year. And now I want to get
him to two full days. 16 hours. >> Oh, so four hours more a week. Correct. >> Okay. Anybody else have any questions? >> No. >> Brad, you okay?
>> Mr. Higgins, do you have any questions? >> I don't I don't know if he's on. >> He's not there. >> No. >> He's I texted him five after 6 asked he had his camera on. He said, "Yes, I can hear and see everyone. We'll reboot and
try." Yeah, he tried. And >> again, >> still it's it's on his end. I There's nothing I could do about it. >> Okay. >> Thank you, Paul. >> I think we're good. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> I'd like to open the floor for items for discussion. 2026 proposed municipal budget zooms. If I could, is there anybody from land use here? >> Oh, >> no. So, take >> I think that's it. That's all that's on the list. Is there anybody else that was going to come up?
>> You had a question last time about operations. >> No department heads here. >> No, there's no other department head. Yeah, I I have multiple questions for land use and I was kind of hoping somebody would be here to answer those questions.
>> You want to send me those questions? >> We'll have them addressed. I prefer to have the department head answer them for me. I mean, there's there's a saying out there if you don't have a seat at the table, you're part of the menu. So, I just flip to the land use page and start there. >> Well, that that applies in the in the
private sector but not the government, right? We have um >> may not be true. >> Okay. So, are we opening up the floor for discussion? Budget. Do I have a motion? Discuss the budget. >> Motion moved. Second.
>> All right. Just so we're clear that the the department heads were uh that email was forwarded to department heads late today. Uh I think around three o'clock today, right? So um >> well, you made a comment at the at the last meeting about the salaries and
somebody was going to be retiring. >> No. Well, no. Um >> would there because you did I listen went back and listened tape and you said somebody was going to retire. Well, they haven't uh obviously uh executed that, but they um
>> and that's something that like I said, we have people in departments that are eligible for retirement. So, I I and it's every department, right? We we want to make sure that we're always um making sure we keep that redundancy um in each
department that most departments, you know, have someone pretty much at three that can retire. So, but if I recall from the meeting last week, you said that you there was somebody who's going to be retiring and you were going to move somebody else in there and that's why
the salary was was much higher. So, if that's the case and nobody has retired yet and there's no need to move that person, then we should be reducing that salary down. >> We can look into that. Yes. >> Agree. Definitely agree.
>> Also, don't what are we we have two per two people in that department. Yeah. >> Yes. >> One I guess is for land use uh situation and then >> use one for zoning >> and then there's one for zoning. Okay. So
>> and just just note that anytime they're out or sick, we don't have that coverage. >> So this is why like I said that department has always had uh other individuals in there but maintain
government. So uh to maintain operations >> I'm go ahead Pat >> I was just going to say so there is no really no other plan to increase that then >> no >> okay >> oh for which for land use can
>> so I got to tell you we got to get this budget down we cannot present 11 11.5 to our public >> we have to chop is down there. A lot has to come out. Now, I asked Patty to send me an email of how much we would have to
remove to get that number down, but I haven't gotten a return. >> Not only that, >> she responded to you. >> Pardon me. >> She responded to you. >> Oh, okay. I didn't see it yet. I didn't check my email today. Over the >> That number is $1.2 million. >> Only $1.2. >> Only
I >> scraping thousand cents here. And uh >> I thought it would be more to get it down to 4%. >> I think it's 1.2. two% >> each tax point is $370. Correct. >> Yeah, I thought each tax point was going to go down about 4%.
>> That'd be that'd be almost $2.8 million. Was too low. >> Yeah, because at the meeting last week, she said, like Brad just said, each tax point is 370,000. So, how could it only be 1.2 million >> to go from 12 to 4?
I may look at studio. >> But anyway, that being said, we really got to take a look at this. So, I don't know where you want to begin. Um, >> well, the the question that I have right now is we made a lot of suggestions for
cuts at the last meeting. >> Oh, not really. We did a lot of the revenue. Um, did we start going into cut? >> Let me revenues or a cut is same thing. >> All right. Uh, all right. And I wanted to know where we would where we would stood at with with those. Have they been
reflected in any of the numbers that have come to us? >> She sent us email update. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> I think two days after the meeting last week with the updated number >> and I thought, did it come down a half a percent? >> Didn't come down. >> It didn't do >> It didn't do a lot.
>> Yeah, it didn't do much with adding all that revenue. now adding maybe the court that we're changing now that could possibly um increase it. >> Thank you for coming. Thank you. >> Not much. Thank you. Have a good day. >> Um
so at any rate, I mean I think we're really going to have to start cutting out a lot of stuff. So in my opinion, um I do want to suggest that we have a hiring freeze at this moment. >> Not hiring anyway, right? Well, a hiring
freeze till further notice >> or movement >> or movement from part-time to full-time, >> right? >> Until further notice. So, that needs to be instituted. >> Well, I think that >> Well, accordingly, it looks like all
your departments are fully staffed. In my opinion, >> we've been short staffed. >> When the need arises, we'll have to assess it. But in the meantime, these are what we have to put in place to keep the taxes down. we cannot have an 11% raise.
So we really in my opinion have to look at a lot of things. So going through this I think beautifification I think we need to cut that. We have the infrastructure in place right now. So all you have to do is buy flowers. So $10,000 I think we can cut that down to
like 2,000. >> Two. >> No, but that just >> I figured five second. So, on average, we we do $6,000, right? That's that's the yearly. That doesn't just include just for uh flowers, right? It goes for
year round um beautifification. Uh on average, it's 6,000. We did I think 12,000 last year because we purchased new trees. Um when I seen it this year was like a 10. I It's a little high, but whatever we don't use, we always
>> No, I think we got to cut it down. I mean we have to take thousands at a time to get this lower. So I suggest what did you suggest Pat? Four >> five >> five I suggest 25. >> You do have the >> No, I mean it's Yeah. Well, basically
50%. Would have been the >> I'd ask that we keep 5,000. Yeah. So I even say lower. >> We used to have it 6,000 when we had the little plastic uh flower pots out on the medium. So you know we have a lot more now. >> Right. So all you need to do is put
plants in them because you have the infrastructure down >> but it goes to other things too, right? >> Christmas seasonal stuff. >> Well, maybe, you know, >> and that's >> maybe not so much this year coming up. >> No, I I would I would I would ask that we at least keep the $6,000. Um
>> Yeah, I think it lower. >> What tab is beautiful? >> I mean, because we are going to have to chip away. >> People would like like their town, >> but I think it may be smarter because >> smarter. >> Yeah. Did you put those trees in and decorate them? Cuz it looked like a professional did them. So, whoever did them did a great job.
>> Beautifification did it. Yes. >> Well, they did a very nice job cuz they look professional >> and they don't get paid. >> I hear you. But still, a few flowers and a few trees and try to make >> $1,000 ain't going to move this budget.
So, like I said, >> no, but that's what we have to do. Every single line, >> people >> every line. All right. Put it on hold. 4500. 4500 >> 4500 >> reasonable. >> Just you'll keep you'll have empty empty
pots and you'll >> Well, let's see how much we can get this budget down before we go up on something. Let's see what we can take out. >> Okay. >> Maybe we can bring enough down that we can put it back in. >> Right. >> I think considering in 2024 3,300 was
spent, then in 2025 we spent 9600. I think we could bring it down to like 3500 or 4,000. >> So, what I did what I did the I did the first year um I didn't have a beautifification committee. Um I wanted
to take it maybe a step back and apply it towards you know towards the planners which we got most of it done on donations. Um I always people would complain that we didn't plan flowers. That's because they took a step back um and we did purchase some things so we
can go forward with nice say infrastructure right um that was the reason why you'll see that there was like I think like next to nothing in spending on I if it was 2024 >> 2024 there was 3,300 y
>> versus 2025 9600 I think really it looks great but we can't really afford it I think because if we're trying to cut every little area accounts. Same thing. Another thing I wanted to mention is economic development. >> Yeah, that needs to be lower, too. That's how we spent the money.
>> Yeah. Last year they were budgeted 2500. They only spent $30 and then the year before that they spent $100 when 500 was budgeted. I think we could budget $500 again for EDAC. >> We're we're doing a uh a forum with the
businesses. Um, I did speak with EAC and I I'd asked that we lower that to $800. >> 800. >> Yeah. 800. >> Okay. So, you're check doing the 2500 to >> down to 800. >> Down to 800. >> Can we Can we agree on a number for beautifification before?
>> Well, why don't we go with 4,000 and if we can get it back in, we will. We got to make cuts. I'm sorry. I think people would rather have not a higher tax increase. Yeah. >> Then flowers. >> You can make do.
>> It's not me. It's I I I listen to the public when they're >> All right. Well, >> the public you'll be listening to them when they have an 11% increase, too. >> I got to listen to that, too. So, I'm just saying I just listen and their arguments. >> You know what I wanted to ask? Now, I don't have Patty here, and again, I
didn't didn't get a chance to look at my email today. How much we need to change the revenue from the auction last year? That money should be in revenue. Did she share that with you since you knew that she said >> she? >> As for auction auction proceeds, these
funds are placed into reserve account titled sale of municipal assets. Best practice is to allocate this reserve towards specific purchases rather than treated as anticipated revenue since it is not reliable or reoccurring source of income.
>> That should be revenue. It sits in one pot and then you bring it in at the next budget season under revenue. I've never heard of that. >> Are we not? >> Am I right? >> No, I'm not. >> Goes either way, but >> Well, could we use >> since you don't have a Since you don't
have an ongoing revenue stream? >> Yeah, but don't you just add that in as revenue? I mean, a lot of stuff isn't continuous. It is because >> if you run out of parcels to sell, you have no ongoing revenue stream. So, it's not best practice to factor it in every year.
>> No, but you have to establish a line and you can't establish the line if you have an ongoing if you don't have an ongoing revenue. >> What about the cars and all of that stuff? Same thing. >> Well, they sell cars. You sold a lot of um >> the cars we have.
>> There's lots but not just land, >> you know. The car I mean the old those those are those are not regularly done. You can go, you can probably make a case for either one, but the idea for me that
I'd like to is that we use it, but we use it for something that we uh that we know we're going to get. >> So that should be in the budget though. It should reflect in the budget, not just a bunch of money that hangs out there. >> You'll have a you'll have a number, but
then at some point you'll you'll use that applica the application of that money for something else. Maybe you're going to be buying a a back loader or something like that that you >> Well, how much money was it? He can put it in his beautifification. How much was it? >> I I don't have that number.
>> All right. So, maybe figure that out. Maybe we can get that one of these numbers down by using that money then if that's your way of saying you can use it. >> Sandy, what was the uh you you talked about the the auction >> about the what >> the auction? Was that the vacant
property list? with vacant property in that. I have the the resolution that you guys did last year. I'd have to pull it up and find it. >> The vacant property list she changed to 65,000 uh from whatever it was in here, but
that's that wasn't the aux. Uh it was in here at 60. So, she raised it $5,000, but I don't see a revenue item for online auction. >> Well, that's what they're saying.
They're saying they don't need a revenue line. >> Okay. >> They're saying they don't >> So, you were questioning last week the the vacant property list. Is that >> Well, all everything that was on that auction list, just like the auction that we just had and we voted for. Mhm. >> So I would assume that would been it has
to sit in well from what I understand it sits in a an account and you bring it forward at the next budget. But now Pat says it can be used someplace else but where is it documented? That's all I'm saying then if that's what we're doing.
>> Could it be factored as revenue just for this upcoming budget? Is that something we could do? I mean, if that it's if it's a h 100,000, that would help a lot. Or 50,000, that would help a lot. >> I have no problem with it.
>> I mean, they have a line item as revenue. So, I just would assume they would count that as revenue, right? Because we have zeros going across. It means every year they've been putting zeros there. So, that's something to explore because if it's significant, that could help.
Is Bill back on? He's He can hear. Oh, >> okay. >> He's not on. I mean, he could hear, but he can't participate. >> Could we bring him up on the phone >> and then he can talk, listen, and talk like the old days when we just use the
phone? That's what we used to do when one of us, right, Pat? We put us on speaker phone. I'm sure Bill would like to participate. All right. So, um, next item. Anybody else? Oh, we put
in a request. I want to talk about Well, we'll get to capital. Um, the solid waste. >> Yeah, I think >> that needs to be removed. >> That hasn't been voted on. So, it's in the budget as a line item. And how much is that?
>> 22 224 for um I guess salary. 132 132,000 as a line item in expenditures >> plus I think there's another 7,000 that you can be that can be added to >> I have I have Bill calling me now so I'm
going to answer it >> and put them on speaker >> okay I was going to use his phone but it's very low >> Bill you're on speaker I'm going to leave my phone on here >> so I can hear >> that's fine you you you can hear us fine >> okay
>> all right Wait, wait, wait. So I can get closer. >> Sy's going to move over here so she can hear. >> Sit here, Sandy. Or >> you want to sit here? >> Yeah, >> sit right here. >> Okay. I want to look at
>> Bill. You texted me some stuff. >> You got to read the body language. >> You want to talk about the stuff that you just text me and that way it's not going through me >> about the part-time or so on and so forth? >> Yes.
Okay, good. >> Yep, you're good. Go ahead. >> Got you. >> Okay. So, what what I uh what I have sent over was uh part part- timerrs apparently are getting uh benefits.
>> And I don't know if that's ever been agreed to or it just happened. >> And one of the reasons for having part- timerrs is we saved on benefits. that should probably be looked at and possibly cut out. >> They they're saying part- timerrs do not receive any benefits.
>> There's no uh retirement. >> No. Well, there's no pension. So, you're you're talking about pension. >> Yes. >> Part-timers have a pension or no? >> No. Not that I'm aware of.
>> They say not that they're aware of. There's no pension for part- timerrs. >> Okay. I asked a question. I'm not sure who I asked it to previously, but the answer was yes. >> So, it's worth checking into >> there. There may be there may be something that they pay into themselves,
but I don't think that but we'll we'll get more information on there, but no, we don't give benefit. >> Uh, okay. Next point, Bill. >> Point was a hiring freeze. I agree with that. >> Okay. Third thing is uh we we're still
outside of the normal realm of civil service and even moving part-timers to full-timers has to be advertised even when the freeze is off. We have to do things properly. >> Yes. So we proposed a freeze for anybody
going part-time to full-time until further notice. >> Right. And then the only other one was just being that the recreation department has a large increase in salaries, their
salaries versus size of the department really out of whack. And if you remove the 45,000 that goes to the PL as a pass through, that means their budget is actually smaller and their percentage of salaries
is higher. So, it's a it's worth another look at the rest department. >> Yes. So, I'm going to interject, Bill. So, yes, there's a 20,000 increase in salary and wages. >> So, that means one person's getting a 20,000 bump up.
>> Is that too? >> Well, that's a part-timer making minimum wage. I mean, how much of a ratio, you know, I >> I agree. I have it down here. >> Yeah. So, that needs to definitely be looked at. So, put that on the list. Um,
>> hey, can I just I'll add as I go along. Thank you. >> Wait, you're staying on, Bill, aren't you? >> Oh, yeah, sure. Oh, >> Bill, you also uh sent a message about uh having HR having like an HR director or
somebody take on HR responsibilities. Yes, we actually have no HR department and I see that as a cause for some of this discrepancies and people movement and one person should be the director of HR my opinion that should be the uh the
BA and there was talk of having the BA become full-time from part-time if they move to full-time that should be a responsibility that way we have a uniform answer when there's a there's a question
HR process. >> I I don't know where he he sent that email to me and I was going to respond, but uh I don't know. He's he also talked about salary numbers. Uh I mean I don't know where he was getting all this stuff um
from. I I think if you want an HR representative, there's certain uh training and courses I think you'd have to have uh have to hire someone for that um to take that responsibility. Um that HR responsibility is spread across uh
myself, Tina, >> sorry. >> Yeah, sorry. So it it it it gets spread across several people and um and we also we confirm a many things with our labor
attorney uh if there's any kind of areas where there could be controversy. So we do check in with our labor attorney quite often. Um but we used to have an HR department years ago. Um and due to you know budget cuts I guess they they
got rid of that. So >> you're really saying that four people have been trained in HR procedure. Is that what you're saying? >> No. >> Well, you said one person had to be trained and you four untrained people. >> You want to designate an HR person. I I
think it's best that uh that person um if that's their sole responsibility, then then I would recommend that we hire an HR director. I don't think it's a sole responsibility job. I I think I think you have, you know, the HR person
is going to be employment law. It's going to be about uh benefits, not so much payroll because you have a payroll department and then the hiring and orientation and so on and so forth. you know, I I just don't know
how that becomes a full-time job when you have, you know, a 100 plus employees here that don't have a lot of turnover. So, I don't understand why it can't be added to somebody's responsibility if there's there may be somebody in the
municipal building who uh aspires to go ahead and be trained in that and then could take on that additional responsibility. I don't think it's it's an add-on. I'm not one for growing government, but I'm also would like to have the uh hiring practices and
employment rules, you know, followed so we don't have part- timerrs automatically be given full-time jobs without other part- timerrs being offered the position or uh you know, without the position being posted where other part- timerrs could be interested in it. I just think that's wrong and I
think that's something that an HR person could take on that responsibility and we don't have that indirection anymore. We follow all civil service
>> summary of what I'm trying to say. we we follow all the civil service guidelines um when it comes to hiring and that process. >> I could go back to last meeting, Anthony, where you basically said that, you know, you were going to move
somebody from one department into zoning and and and planning where you already had your mind made up who you were going to move. To me, that doesn't sound like it was being offered out through civil service. >> Yeah. >> Well, there was Well, there is no um
position that's that's there now, right? So, there is no uh full-time position. This is uh we have I think we have uh other uh two other employees that kind of spread out uh with other departments
um you know to help to help in in certain uh to help with some of the workload some other departments. So we we do um kind of that's this is how we had some employees who who worked in many departments because they took small
part in and being part of that process. So um so there is no uh position that's there that's that needs to be advertised um for full-time. >> Nobody's even talking about full-time.
It was just the fact that somebody had been picked out to move to a non-existent position without going through the proper channels and having one person manage it just seems to be out of order in my opinion.
>> Yeah. Talking about part- timerrs, you know, I see um you're paying what you're paying the part- timerrs, but some part- timerrs are making a lot of money per hour, and I don't they're clerks. I mean, you're a fire prevention person.
You got to look at the part-time. Some are you're paying minimum wage and some >> There's a there's a uh uh there's a ordinance or right for part- timerrs, there's an ordinance of how much they could make. They're within that that >> in the range.
>> Yeah. You know what? I don't have the resolution for your salary ordinances. I think I'll need that. >> And we are supposed to be doing that now, too. So, >> who's doing the salary ordinance because that goes in size with the budget? >> No, we don't have to do a salary ordinance unless unless someone is
>> We just did a salary ordinance in the fall. >> Yeah. >> Then I need that information. >> Also, if it's if let's just say we have uh we have a member who's at the max in in in that thing, right? So, then we have to do a salary audits so they could
go to the next level. But right now, we don't need to do any salary audits. part time is, >> you know, nobody's getting more than what >> $25 an hour that as a clerk. Correct. You've got other people that are not
credentialed making. >> We have three quarter times >> less. >> So, some are getting paid more and some are making less, but I think the skill rate and their responsibility rate is the same. Just saying. >> Well, it's not. And that's why maybe certain people are making more than the others, right?
>> All right. Um, not that I see, but All right. >> Um, um, >> I did notice when I look at the employee census, about half of the part- timerrs were hired roughly within the last two years. Are those positions that existed previously or are we hiring more part?
>> You may be looking um that we've had I know we've we've had uh a full-time leave and we replaced it with two part- timerrs. So, we did we did some >> And what department was that? Well, they were zoning. >> Which one was that?
>> They were zoning originally. >> I thought they only have two full-timers. >> They used to have a part-timer and he left. >> So, now you only have one person. >> We have two full-time people. One for land use, one for zoning. The part >> you put two part- timerrs.
>> No, no. So, so we had um we had zoning leave and then we put um I think it was originally was a it was a part-time I'm trying to refresh my memory on that, but um I know we we had one or two
full-timers that left and we replaced them with part- timerrs that I know. Um I'll get you the the history on that. What I'm asking really is like when I heard um Yeah. Could we That's a rever because he's picking up a Coral site.
>> Um what I remember m Michelle saying in regards to recreation as senior senior center is that they're bringing on more people who work part-time. So if you were to go back two or three years, there weren't as many part-time employees working here in general.
Because if you look at the employee census, we have about 16 part- timerrs. Eight of them were hired within the last two years. Did we previously have that many? >> I think we did. No, we did. >> Depending on the >> We did not. We might have.
>> Michelle was saying that they brought on more people in the senior center who are part-time. So those positions must not have existed. >> They did previously. >> They did not. >> They brought the the one person on. She did as as the senior center built up
and there was more seniors coming and stuff, they did have to increase the part- timerrs down there for the assistance for the lunches and everything that they did. Um, I don't know exactly how many extras are on there, but the census that you guys have
besides part- timerrs in the senior center, you have like part-time dispatchers, you have the part- timerrs that work over at animal control, you have um any part- timerrs here. So, it's not just, you know, up here the part- timerrs. It could be the police
department, you know, with discounts. It could be I mean, it makes >> animal control and stuff. I don't know exactly how many Michelle has increased from down there, but >> it's been a few. >> That that's I would like to know grow in the Yeah, I think it was just one. It
makes sense that we have reasons to have part- timerrs, but if I were to look at, say I had an employee, I I wish we could look at previous employee censuses from years past and see just how many part- timerrs were working here go back one year, two years, three years to see if
there are more people being brought on as part- timerrs in positions that didn't exist previously. That's what my concern is because what she was mentioning when she was speaking at the last meeting, I was thinking about it. She was saying she brought on a lot of part- timerrs and that's a big expense
>> if they're not needed. Yeah, >> agreed. And it has grown here when we had an employee census and I have the old census and you can see each year going up and up and up. >> So nobody comes to me and says, "Hey, I just want to have extra staff, right?
They have to justify and show the numbers as to their need, right?" Um uh but I think I think I only brought one. >> Only one only one has been brought on like recently. >> Recently? >> No, you've hire hired two people in February or January and February.
>> Talking back down at the senior center. >> Oh, and still and they're they're limited on hours, too. It's not like they're doing 28 hours, right? So, some of them >> and the part-timer that she just brought on for downstairs is only doing eight hours. >> Yeah. But when I
>> and that's for the you know the bulk of the time that they >> not just in the senior center if I look at the employee census within the past since 2024 mostly in 2025 there have been it says on the census eight new part-time people brought on
>> in the last two years >> that that has changed right to >> was that were those replaced were they brought on because there was a request for another part-time employee That's the only thing I'm wondering is were
these positions on the >> Yeah, I I don't know the data on that census that you're looking at and and whether that's >> Well, it's supposed to be current. >> That was >> right. But I'm talking >> that one that I sent you all. >> Yeah, that's reference
>> to what you're uh what you're you're comparing it to. I don't know what >> he's not that's the problem. He's not comparing it to anything. What he's saying is that on their hire dates, which is on the census, >> Yeah. I have >> It shows that we've hired eight
part-time people in the last two years. >> Yeah. I have >> all of their hire dates. He's not comparing it to anything. >> So, like I said, and no one's leaving. >> I have no one's leaving. >> I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight >> that are hired since October of 2024.
>> All at differing rates. Some between $15, some at 20, $25 and one, two, they're in all different. >> There are two. >> Yeah, there are two that are in senior
center and there's some in fire prevention, some all over the place. And what I'm asking is, and like Brad just said, there's nothing for me to compare it to. Are these people hired to replace previous part-time employees who left? Are these people new to handle an
increased workload that someone asked you for? What what was the justification for if those positions were created? Like we don't have anything to really compare it to. And I'm just noticing there's a lot of new part-time employees within the past two years. >> I would say besides the uh this the
senior center, I think most were replacing um uh full-timers instead of part instead of hiring part time. made we had to make the movement when we lost an employee. We took that person out of
one department and moved into another department and that part-timer went to full-time and the part one of the part- timerrs without saying names you know the other
part-timer was replacing that one in another office there was definitely a replacement because somebody left >> from a part-timer to the other part-timer. Um, I don't know what other departments. These are just ones that I can
definitely tell you that they were replacing people that left. >> Well, what I would like to see is just how many part- timerrs did we have last year? How many part- timerrs did we have the year before that? I understand there's going to be totally valid
reasons for why some of those people would have been hired. I just want a little bit more something to compare it to context just so that when I'm looking at all these people who are hired within the past year or two I understand why I think the issue we have here and it
it's it's it's it's a function of having a organization that is very uh the budget is very reliant on the salaries and benefits of
its employees, which takes up the vast amount of the overall budget. I know when I was in the board of ed, we used to talk about 80 to 82% of the budget was salary and benefits. And unfortunately, the town isn't much different than that.
And when you're in a situation where you have, you know, these huge increases that are happening in in benefits and health benefits for reasons that are are no fault of ours sitting here, but the fact of the matter, they're occurring.
Unfortunately, in order to keep things reasonable, those things have to be affected in order to keep taxes from skyrocketing. So that means something happen has to happen that affects the salary and the
benefits of our budget. Unfortunately that means people. So you know we're we're just in a situation where you don't have the uh the expenses as far as materials or anything like that that you
can look at. You can't cut gas. You can't cut diesel. You can't cut uh insuranceances. You can't cut any of that stuff because those are overheads that are we have to have. And as far as a council goes, and this is only me speaking, I don't think it's our purview
as a council to go and say this is what's going to cut so on and so forth. I think our position as a council is this is what we can afford and that is x% and it's the administration's job to get
to that. I have a number in my head of of I I really don't want to go past 4% on a budget. >> Yeah. >> And if >> and if it goes 4% I'm going to be a No. >> Yeah. >> I'm just that
>> Yeah. What I'm going to state is that um I give you a budget. This is what it's going to cost to run the town for the year. If it's something that you don't like, you have to point that out. >> And that's what we're doing.
>> But that's what we're doing. But that's But you're But unfortunately, when when I used to turn my budgets in and they would say, "You have to cut." I would ask, "Where do you want me to cut from?" You're the one that does it dayto day. you tell me where it's best to cut.
>> That's what you should be doing as an administration is you should know where to go to to try to find some cuts. You know, >> it's it's not the police. We're we're we're stretched thinner already. It's you know, road department. I'm sure that's pretty thin also. So,
unfortunately, >> we're thin period every but we're in a situation here where you know we can't afford 11 12 13% in taxes. So what's the solution? >> What's 3 years of 0%.
>> I don't care if we had 18 years of 0%. I don't care. The fact of the matter, Anthony, is 11, 12 or 13% is unacceptable. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. And again, it has it's through mostly through benefits of
skyrocketing over and over again. And like I said before, that's through no fault. But it it's it's has to be corrected in some way. And to me, that falls on the administration to correct it, not the council. It's our count. It's our budget
to approve. Like I said before, I think it's in our purview to say this is what we can afford is 4%. You have to go and tell find out where to get the the the cuts at. That's my position on it. >> Suggestions which I think are very valid that we've made. do I mean from what
we've looked at in this packet the areas where I can identify that we could cut from what I can see would be the um solid waste cutting from beautifification but even then that's not even getting
close to 6% of the entire increase once it gets to that where you're talking about staff salaries um part-time full-time that's not really we don't have day-to-day knowledge of what goes on in this building and where you could intend to cut.
>> Some of them are inflated. >> Yeah. What we can say, however, is we don't feel comfortable voting for more than 4%. And we need to see a budget with a 4% increase. What would that look like? What would you guys recommend
cutting? Where would you what would you do to get to that number? Because that's what we feel comfortable saying yes to. And we can keep seeing 11, 12, 13 and just have it get thrown back at us, but we'll vote no. >> I mean, and that's >> that's up to you guys. You can vote no
on it, >> but it's your job to make the cuts that we suggest and your job to get it to that job. >> Let me know where you want to cut, >> but you're you're supposed to be doing that part of it. We >> just went in a big circle. We don't have the knowledge to know exactly what to
>> We can without cutting. >> We're not done. We're not done yet, though. looking at the budget, there's more to come out. >> But you're right, everybody's right. 4%. >> We we we approve the budget. We say what we're comfortable with, and then we have
an administration that tells us what can be cut. If we're saying we're not comfortable with more than 4%. Show me what you would cut to get to 4%. >> But I think that number 4%, believe me, I mean, I I wish we'd have a 0%, right?
I mean, we all do, right? But those things are not feasible. >> Well, you wait, wait, before we go any further, let's get through this. You know what we want? We want 4%. But there is stuff we can cut still. >> I'm just going to let you know
>> that when we tell you to take something out, you have to take it out though cuz that's your job. >> Well, that's that's what we're here for. >> Okay. So, let's continue. But we're looking at a 4% just to validate. But I just >> You've been at this. We've been at this for weeks.
>> We want 4%. >> We've been at this. Let's go. >> We've been at this for weeks and we barely moved the needle. >> What? >> We've been at this for weeks and we barely move move that needle. >> Well, we're going to have to move that needle. So, let's start trying to move that needle.
>> Four. Hold on. Is is going to it's going to either, you know, come from a fund balance or you're going to have to start laying off large departments. That's >> possibly because unfortunately police DPW all these areas you guys are
willing you guys are willing >> that's for you to figure out no collaborate I'm going to tell you this is what I need to run the town if you tell me >> no you need to tell me where you want to >> I think two people down
>> that's the administration's job that is not the counter >> you got to be reasonable you're going >> I think I am being reasonable saying 4% % I think I am being close. >> We're basically saying that we think things are bloated. >> We think maybe revenues are underestimated. We think appropriations
are overestimated. >> There you go. >> So I mean, you know, so I'll have the CFO come to those exact numbers and and and go from there. >> Okay. >> I mean, >> so but I do want one thing before I forget. There's um one department we
have to add for salary and that's tax collector. She is falls under the parody statute and when I went through the census she is supposed to be in line with the clerk the assessor
also the CFO um but she is supposed to be in that area. So the people she's in line with she's underpaid >> okay >> and that's by statute. So that we're going to have to add money to. >> Okay. That's that's an administration.
>> And we can >> Now you want me to Now you want me to give raises. >> But she But yeah, but it's by statute. And we've had to do this when I was on the council last time, too. Her position. >> We had to raise people because that's the statute. It's called the parody
statute. And they're all those key departments are all supposed to be in line. Am I correct? I'm correct. >> I I I don't know. I don't know if they they >> correct and so you need to add money to that line.
>> You have 20,000 in wreck with one person getting a raise. So tax collection no there's not one person getting a raise. >> It is it's at 20 in wreck. >> So the the the part- timerrs that we had there um we gave them a little bit of a
raise because they were making uh minimum wage, right? >> We gave them a little bit like a >> How much? A little just a little a dollar or two I think we gave them. I don't I have to look at my other sheets to see exactly but it was just a $2 raise is a 10% raise.
>> Yeah. I mean you don't see an issue with that >> and then the rest would going to the department head part time is making minimum wage. So >> but then you have Yeah. It's just messed up. >> They requested for a raise. I I felt that >> but anyway there's already been saying
collector has to be brought up. >> There already been there's already been raises issued on Jan past January 1st of this year. >> No well no no first everything has to get approved. Um obviously it has to get approved through the budget. So if it's not approved it's not approved.
>> Simple as that. >> And you know what? Why we need a salary ordinance with this? Because what happens? People don't fall and they're going to get their raise, but the the ceiling is too low or too high or too low. Too low. They won't qualify for a
raise. So that's why the salary ordinance done with the budget. >> Nobody's getting a raise where we have to start changing the salary ordinance. >> But we should >> if that mean if there's money in there, you can give that to one person. I think
Sy's also saying we should have those salary ordinances along with this so we have context you know because were those sent to us >> anything contractual we can't do anything >> we understand that yeah we understand that >> um so your salary ordinance that we did
last year was department heads part- timerrs >> um trying to remember what else was on there that had to be adjusted and that was adjusted actually last year after the budget was passed
wasn't in correspondence with the budget at that time they were >> after the budget >> um I don't know have to >> so to honor those increases we'll need a >> fairly soon then you can pass the budget but then we're going to need the salary ordinance when
>> if they're out of that range >> but they might not they might not fall in that range >> like I said >> they wouldn't get they wouldn't get the raise without a salary ordinance. Like if when we did it last year, I know that
there we made adjustments to the ranges >> to cover this year too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jeez. I mean, >> yeah. And that shouldn't be that shouldn't be it should be a yearly thing because again, if it's in the budget, you can give it and if it's not correct
with the salary, meaning without us controlling it. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. You You have to do them every year. You can't do them for two years. >> Do it as Yeah. as as as needed >> tested. >> Yeah. But if somebody So say the the
high mark is 100 grand, right? >> But now the person making a 100 isn't and going to get a raise. If it's not in the salary ordinance, that person doesn't get a raise. Then >> you're right. >> You have to adjust it. But to adjust it
two years in advance, I don't think is good practice. That needs >> and that's why that's done every year every year. But budget time, >> it's kind of a large scale, right? We don't just go um so we >> that's the way it should be. It should be a very tight because whatever thin
air is you can give it. >> By keeping by moving the the the boundaries closer together, tightening up it it it makes sure that the council is informed that we're going to have to
move the uh the uh >> needle over >> the needle over, so to speak. It's essentially what we had to do when we were looking for a uh CFO. >> Right. Right? >> Because we found that based upon the need based upon supply. In this
particular case, need and supply were very very were very different. We had to make an adjustment that was significant. Probably wouldn't have done it for any other employee or any other position. Uh, you know, in that regard,
>> I agree with you. I mean, that's why it's it's a scale. Makes no difference to me really. The salary you want to do every six months. >> Yeah. You shouldn't do it two years every two years done every year around budget time. >> We do it based on the need right clarifying that
>> or if that if that if that step in in the uh uh in the contract or whatever is going to is going to go over then then we do that to make that adjustment. We do it as a needed basis but I I don't it doesn't matter to me either way. should
be. Yeah, it should be done in one shot because if there's extra money in the budget, you could be giving that away as salaries as long as it falls in the range and no one would ever know. >> I'm a little confused, Sandy. Pardon me. >> We're going to give money away now. I mean, we're trying to >> No, I'm saying that's why you have to do
it every year. That's what I'm saying. If the range is $20,000 over and you end up with $20,000 in that line item, you can give it to that person and we would never know that somebody got a $20,000 raise and it's been done many times
before. And that's why I speak to it now because I'm a little wiser now >> than I was back in the day. So that's the reason. It's just >> don't matter to me. >> Government, that's all. >> Don't matter to me. you had mentioned before the people in senior citizens you
wanted to give them um a1 or2 dollar raise something like that >> yeah they currently make I just looked minimum wage there's four of them and you were saying before if we want to cut something tell us what you what we want to cut how would I how would I even know
based on just all I can see is there's a $20,000 increase in wages for the senior center how would I know exact exactly where that's going and what to cut there. >> The department head was here and she told you. >> What's that? >> The department head was here last time
and she told >> she didn't say we're going to give each of the minimum of the $2 raise. >> All I knew was that wages were going to go up. I didn't know if it was going towards her going towards um the other full-timer that's there. I don't know.
>> I think she did talk about it. >> No, she the part- timerrs down there. We asked if anybody was going to be changed to full-time. >> The reason that I mention this is because it kind of exemplifies the point of we for us to go through this line by
line and decide as a group what we want to cut to get down to a number that we're comfortable with is an extremely inefficient way and honestly a halfhazard way of cutting things because we don't know exactly what's done every
single day in the building. there are professionals who do that and you know what's going on or you're the mayor, you're the one who's the CEO of the town. So if we're saying we're comfortable with X amount and we can see that there's an increase here, here, here, and here, how would we I mean for
us to go up there and amend the budget line item at a time, vote three to cut something to get down to a number that we're comfortable with. That would take an insane amount of time and it would be unrealistic. And honestly, we could cut something that we don't have a lot of
context for. That's why I agree with what Brad was saying. We are saying we're comfortable with 4%. We would like to see this prepared with a 4% increase >> and the changes we're suggesting >> and the changes that would that we're suggesting. We can suggest, you know,
we're not comfortable with that raise in recreation. We're not comfortable with solid waste disposal. We're not comfortable with beautifification. But obviously that's not going to cut everything down to 4%. You have to look at your staff and see what could be cut
to get down to the number we're comfortable with. And honestly, that's the most ethical way of doing it because you know what's going to be cut there. You know what everyone does. You know who you could deal without, who you can't lose, who is contractually tied to
X, Y, and Z. We can't get up there and amend the budget to get to that point and approve it on our own. And >> the only the only thing technically the council can do is defund the line. >> Yeah, >> that's technically the only thing the council could do. So for us to to
basically say to cut this and cut that is is not really under the the opaces of the council. The only thing we could basically say is take, you know, line item 1697, make it zero. >> Yeah, >> that's the only thing we can do. And
that's just not the proper way to do it. >> So, so just other than the contractual all raises are are being cut, correct? Is that what you've >> Well, you have to see what that comes out to be. what that comes out. Maybe
we're 1% this year. >> Yeah, we that's not >> maybe that's what has to be done. >> We're asking you to tell us what it would take to get to the number we're comfortable with. >> That's an unrealistic number. That's a lot of 1.4 is a lot. Unless you start cutting services. >> 1.4. Didn't we decide it was higher than
that? >> Well, I'm telling you what this is what she did. 1.4. Um >> well, show us what it would look like and explain what you're not comfortable with. show us what it would look like. >> Well, like I said, I think uh
I'm trying to keep the services that we currently have. I think next year's budget's going to look a whole lot different in in a positive because we do have a lot of things. We we have the cannabis. We have legends. >> Well, we do have the cannabis already.
That's >> revenue. It's focus on coming up. >> Yeah. So, >> but we can't anticipate that, >> right? We need that stream in order to budget, which is >> we can't count on anything
>> that has to go from here to their rest and then go in. >> Okay. >> Next year's budget is for next year. Looking at what we have here, I I'm I can't in good conscience vote for an increase that large. >> That's just not ethical to do that to
people. I voted for increases before when I knew it was the right thing to do. I can't in good conscience say this is And I watch another town >> bought a bed for 13 point something. >> No, I voted for two increases that I knew were going to things that we desperately needed. This is not the same
thing. >> It's not you. >> No. Anyway, let's move forward. He knows what we want. >> Voting on those numbers at the point of >> Yeah, because I knew where they were coming from and when I asked questions, I got answers. >> Okay. >> Can we could can I know uh I think it
was Pat last week asked a lot of question about the trusts. That's why I was just bringing >> you go ahead and then I'll I'll throw in my two cents. >> Yeah. The first the question I'm going to ask is more of a philosophical question.
We've had a couple of just recently two different uh CFOs and there's a there's a philosophy that they maybe they operate behind. Um, everybody feels that,
you know, we we spend too much money and we borrow too much money. I keep bringing out >> how many times that we don't borrow enough. We simply don't borrow enough. Our our uh debt asset ratio is less than
1%. Actually, it's closer to 3/4 of a percent than one. The reason why I like I I bring this up because Brad has served on the board. So has Carl. I have when we determine the
length of time that uh a uh an item needs to be paid for. In most cases when I was on we had to go out and sell schools. And when we did that, those schools were sold with not a, you know,
a 10year or 12 year or 15 year. They were sold with normally three two to three cohorts. And I use a cohort because that's generally understood as about 18 years.
So 18 to 36 years. Uh and the reason why is because people moving in should not have the benefit of uh having all of these things that are part of the infrastructure paid off without having
contributed to those particular items. So when you bring some bring some of these big items under, you know, uh uh out into the marketplace to start bidding on them, you got to think of who's going to be coming in and how much
it's going that going to take place to to to, you know, to to fund those items. And um so when I'm looking at these uh these trust funds uh they are
essentially like uh a re or just a reserve. Now Patty told me that there were some particular issues could not we could not use all that they were we were restricted by the number of
um the amount of the difference between one year to another that fell to that particular um uh you know item or that fund. And I still don't know which ones
are part of that and which ones are not. Um, for example, she did make a move taking the uh storm trust funds storm trust fund and adding and making a
separate line for that for the uh salt uh and for and being able to handle the salt out of that fund. That's a that's an expensive number. Reason why she couldn't give it to us because we didn't have the first quarter numbers and we
should have it by now. So I think that's one thing that we should be able to get and that can be taken from the storm trust fund or this new line that she's put in. But what about the balances? I mean there are other items there that
are very significant. Uh, I mean, we're we're looking at some of these items that um where we're talking about, you know, the uh senior citizen centers. We got a $4,000
um balance at the end of, you know, 40, you know, at the end of uh at the end of this year. Uh maybe we can take half of that. I'm I'm looking for $2,000 increments, things that we can add up. Maybe we can't, maybe we can, but we
should be able to talk about these things. >> Oh, I think that that just goes right back into fund balance. Any unused >> Well, if it goes back into fund balance, >> then it's for us to use. >> Then it's for us to use. But then, and I'll be very honest, and we're going to
may have a may have a problem there. We should probably be looking at developing an ordinance as to how much of a fund balance we are required as a township to keep because to >> once you begin using that fund balance
and you use it, it's gone. >> Now to replenish it, you've got to do it twice. >> One for the amount that you just used plus the amount that you that you really wanted to have. So you got to be careful when you use fund balance.
You mentioned this the the fact that we only raised t we didn't raise taxes for three years. You're right. We didn't. But you forgot to mention that there was an afterstatement comment along with that. The board of education had had a
major problem. They used money that should not have been used that had been given to them and it was going to cause substantial increases and we said that we would be able we would try and fund
those balances that amount of money to allow them to make adjustments in their own system. It wasn't done. So after we did it for three years, you know, why bother doing it again? It's you're not
getting what you were asking. And we were willing to participate in that. So I think going over these these uh dedicated funds, these reserves are a great thing. We should do that. And also
any major item like uh fire engines because they're the most expensive things we always run to is to try and use whatever we can in reserves to offset that and and and avoid any
major increases in in taxes. Yeah, I know we we would um well we go out we go off a bond on those those uh those big ticket items that have you know long history right longevity
right so um that's why you know we do those again those revenues if you try to you know so I'm a little confused right at one point you're saying you know we should offer more debt but then >> we don't have enough debt.
>> Enough debt. >> The reason why I say that, Mayor, is because the only way we're going to be able to resolve the problems that we've had, and let's face it, the one of the biggest problems that we've had is
supporting a nonpaying asset. And that was legends. We've all known about that, and we've worked on it. Every administration as long as I've been involved has come up against the stone wall. We're close. Okay. And
hopefully we'll be able to do something about it. But it's not fair to the taxpayer. But why should all of a sudden people who were just moving in now have the benefit of not sharing in what some of the other
taxpayers had to do while they were sitting here? And these people were going to someplace else, living in someplace else. >> Yeah. Like I said, I I I said from the beginning, I I was not happy with this number. It's it's disgusting. It really
is. Um the the question I have about the trust is how many of those trusts are we sub statutoily obligated to have? Because what the thing that got me is when our
director of wreck was here and was basically saying that if she when she does a car show that any revenue for the car show has to go back into the re to the recreation trust fund and then it could only be used for the trophies for
the the event that was happening. That just blows my mind. I I just don't understand, you know, why we would be having these trusts that are that are are restricting our use of that money where we could start having revenue generating events,
but if you're always if you're taking the revenue and have to put it back into an event, it's not revenue generating. It's it's a break even. So, >> yeah, I think ultimately, right, we we want we want and same thing with departments, right? We want to make sure that, you know, we try to to make sure
the departments pay for themselves, right? Um and and I think that's the same thing with with uh with with recreation um as well, right? Some of these events that you'll see um you you'll see that those numbers coming out, but then it's they collected money
on the back end, right? to to pay for for those, you know, maybe a certain vendor that came in like the the telescope person. Um, so those things, you know, get offset by by the ticket sales or however they do that. Um,
listen, I like I said, I I I would love to, you know, turn this into a full-blown business, but um, from what I understand is there's restrictions on doing that type of stuff. Uh, one of the things too, guys, I I I know I know this garbage thing, you you want to cut it
out, but like I said, it takes money to make money. Uh, I I think I I think it's it's something positive, and I think um that we could start making some revenue on that. >> But I think the thing that hurts that is you can't count any revenue this year.
>> Correct. And so you're you're already taking 30 or $40,000 hit to your budget because you can't count any revenue against it. So to me, I think you go ahead and you take it out. that doesn't prevent us
from having a discussion if if it gets approved or not uh going forward because you could always go ahead and prove it approve it and then you have revenue that's offsetting at least then it's it's not affecting your budget in a negative way right now
>> I think that item alone you're looking at about a close to $140,000 >> all right with no revenue against it and that's the problem >> yeah that's true and the fact that somebody else is in town offering
services that are commensurate with what we're offering and with a very very small difference in price. >> That's that's temporary. >> Well, you keep saying that. But the fact of the matter is if if we were allowed
to by law go ahead and budget revenue against the the budgeted expenses, you're you're having a different conversation. But if you remove that $140,000 or whatever that line item is, it doesn't prevent you or us from still, you know,
having conversation and potentially approving that moving forward. It's just that right now it's affecting the budget and in a half a tax point. >> Yeah, I think >> Yeah. And you can do it a different way. Let's not let's keep on going. >> We got to keep on going. We talk all the
time about, you know, revenue tradable and I think this was something that that was good and I think it will be good. >> It's not guaranteed. You can start it up but a different way. But right now we got to take it out. Let's move on. We got to move on. We can't labor this. I'm
sorry. We talked enough about garbage. Come out. We suggest that you take it out. So let's look at capital. That's a big chunk of money. So there's a lot of capital that we could put off, >> but that doesn't that's not affecting
this. >> No, it does because you need the down payment and some of it's included in the budget. So it does affect it. Correct. So anything that is blue is in the budget and anything that's outlined in white, you'd have the percentage down.
So that would be a significant amount of money. >> I can see it. >> Pardon me. >> Can I see that? >> Oh, sure. So thank you to the last page. So there is some things in there that looking through it that I think can come off. So you know you have your bucket
truck. >> They take down what 100 trees a year. That's a lot of sawdust and shavings. And let's use that mulch instead of the plastic mulch. It's >> not the same mulch. >> Can't use it. >> You can't use plastic. You can't use that mulch in playgrounds because of splinters. >> All right. Well, whatever you're using.
>> Not only that, but the mulch that they're talking about here is rubber. >> Right. Right. Well, >> could we do that this year? I mean, you're fine. I went to the parks. They've got stuff there on the whatever they've been using all these years. To me, maybe we should hold that off.
>> You can you can hold it off another year if you want. But >> the other one I was going to ask about the heat system in the large garage. I remember him mentioning that at the meeting last week. That's not being bonded for. That's $45,000. Is that something we could put off until next year?
because that's a really big hit. That's that's an essential. >> He had said that there was course air in there right now. >> Yeah. And does that go along with the mini splits? Like where where is that going? Is that >> But he had said that that that there's
um forced air heat in that garage right now and that it doesn't work very well and it's very cold in there and that's why they wanted a new heat system. Um, which makes sense, but I just don't know if right now is the best time to do that when we're looking at a really, really tough budget. >> Why can't that be bothered?
>> Yeah, that that's a good point. Why aren't we bonding for something that large? It's $45,000 and we're paying for it completely. Like, we're putting it in the budget. >> Would we bond for that instead of paying for it directly? >> We can.
>> And your budget will not go up that much. >> Yeah. because you only have to put a down payment. Like this vehicle bailout equipment, $50,000, we're only putting $2,500 down. >> You'll have to pay a little bit more because it's a percentage. >> Yeah. >> But but it it your budget will not go up
that much by you by bonding it. Yeah. >> And the township can afford it. It's not that we're putting ourselves at risk. Mhm. I mean, >> but but it has to have usable life that coincides with >> with the bond, right?
>> Um, also trackpads for PA. Was that the the >> She had M Miss Ms. Downain had said that um to get to the bathroom at Maple Graange, they wanted to put in stairs. Is that what she's referring to? >> What are you talking about? The Oh, trackpads.
>> Trackpads. Oh, that's that's um those are like I want to say they're like skid plates for our paving machines. Um they're worn out. Um so that's that is definitely >> Oh, for paver like pave. >> Yeah, it's for the paving machine
>> and that's not that's not something we could bond for. >> It's $12,000. It's >> Yeah, it's not that much. >> How about a lot in the budget? >> Do we need new rugs? >> You're looking at take that out. >> You're looking at carpeting that was
replaced. Um I I don't know how long ago, but if you look at some This is No, we're not touching this carpeting. I remember when this >> But $100,000 worth of rugs. >> That's You know, I don't know where he got that. >> Can I take a look at this? >> Yeah.
>> It's the um Yes. So rugs 100,000. I mean, do we have to do that this year? Um I don't >> the steps over at Mayville Graange maybe that has to be put off.
>> There's a lot of stuff I think um >> so some of the some of the department >> parking lot. >> So let me let's go one at a time. Where do you where are we starting here? Do you want to start? Uh DPW >> where do you want to start?
>> Oh well let me share it with you then. >> It's okay if I want to look at it. I didn't hear you. >> Here. Where do you want to start? She She was kind of all over the place. So, I want to make sure that we're >> You're going to sit here. >> We're going. >> Yeah. I'll sit right I'll sit next to >> Oh, yeah. Well, all >> Oh, yes. Okay.
>> All in the same pod. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> so which where? >> Let's start. I mean, the highest thing on the list is turnout gear. Well, that's for the fire department. >> That has >> Guys, let's where where we start?
>> Turnout gear. I believe that that has a year. They have a limited life. >> Oh, so we can't bond. >> So you So no, you can bond it, but you can't not do it. I mean, if it's replacing something that needs to be Yeah. >> replaced. You just can't not do it.
>> Well, this is in the budget. It's not being bonded. So >> yeah, but you can you can bond it. >> Well, maybe that's something we have to look at because how much money is that? That's well 100. No. How much does all those
things add up to? >> 2,200. >> Oh, >> no. The turnout gear is is in the >> is in rotation. Um >> this but you've also got >> a ladder truck.
>> So maybe that's something that can be bonded. Um, >> oh, here. Stairs, great lawn to snack bar in parks and recreation. $40,000. >> Guys, guys, guys, >> let let's start one place and go because
now I from fire to back down to >> I'm sorry. So, we could just We want to start with the Let's start with the uh turn. >> Okay. >> Wait, where are you starting? >> Let's start. >> All right. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> So, vehicle buildout equipment. I think
how we talked about that um that's to you know outfit um trucks and to make sure that they they have all the proper lettering and lighting and plows and whatever else they they need
for that. Um so one way uh snow plow for the for for the tandem that we tandem truck that we just received. Um I did question the the the trailer um I mean 6500
um that is something they definitely need um at this point. The track pads for the pavers that's another uh because without that then we we can't pave right. So it's it's important we keep that machine running.
The heat in the garage I mean that's that's heat. I I wouldn't >> I wouldn't suggest not doing it. I'm suggesting you on for it >> because that's $25,000. >> I'll make I'll make a note. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I understand they need it. I mean,
it's it's not like that's something it's easy to say no to, but we're looking at a really tight budget. >> So, where are these mini splits going? splits are going to go uh into the departments here because the heating
system here I think is pretty much on it. >> But isn't that for cooling mini splits? >> It's for cooling and heating too. >> I don't know if you can get >> Yeah. What do I mean >> out of many splits? You can help. >> I didn't think it's scary to accept it
>> for the price that we're getting them at is is huge compared to having to uh and it's certain there's a lot of departments that I mean I you my office is I don't even know if you even counted my office
but >> well maybe you could bond for it. >> It's 17,000. Um anyway, sand blaster cabinet um in four rims for the uh for truck uh for the loader
number 87. Uh give us the number on it. Um digger and then the mini splits. Mini splits is is is a huge benefit. um compared to having to
I mean you you probably need a whole new system AC system to hit these departments. Um like I said, you got some departments that are just they're freezing in there. Um we I don't know anybody that doesn't have a little space heater underneath their desk. I think we
all do. Um so these will help. before. >> So the lake dam. >> Well, weren't we? >> Sorry, I'm jumping the there. So, let's go. Let's go to building.
>> Well, scanning of documents. >> Yes. So, the scanning of documents, um, the project that we started already, um, I think the original price was like 200,000. Um, and I I have no problem showing you guys after the building
department. The the files are to the ceiling. Um, we are completely maxed out. So, instead of spending the $20 something,000 to have them all scanned, we decided to to budget small. Um, and
we started with all new block and lots. Um, and it also it helps it helps the guy, it helps the staff when they have to look things up. It's it's right at the fingertips on the computer. Um instead of having to go back into those boxes, try to dig them out and you got to hope that the next guy last guy put
it files back supposed to. So >> it's it's a huge benefit. It's relieving the the storage issue. We have massive storage issues in that. We actually have a trailer out back that actually contains >> files, you know. >> I think that's a good idea. I mean one
of these things you have to bite the bullet. >> Yep. >> Yeah. And we're biting it slow. when I again when I got the number 200 something dollars there's no way we can this um you >> have that with the chief on that >> the only question I have is acquisition
of vehicles are those vehicles that we are going to be leasing or are those vehicles that we have leased and are going to be buying >> I don't remember what his comment on that I think I think they'll be it's leasing. I don't we don't we're not >> It sounds to me and and I well it just
sounds to me when acquisition of vehicles it kind of sounds to me that it's vehicles that were that we are actually now going to be purchasing off of a lease rather than a new lease. >> No, definitely not the police. Uh well, the the number that I have based upon
what was in the tenative budget was uh fleet management was up almost $42,000. >> Was is that correct? Did I read it incorrectly? >> Are you talking about the fleet management in the DPW?
>> No, I was just looking in the line. I don't think >> that was something they sent us desperately. >> Are you talking about uh you talking about this? Yeah, >> that's that's um
uh within the DPW. >> That's within the DPW. >> That's vehicle repair, emergency services repairs, miscellaneous VTMUA uh uh vehicle maintenance. That that is just strictly for our fleet, which I'm sure probably has repairs to police
vehicles in it as well, which is the vees repairs, right? animal control. That's 5,000 >> computers administration. Um that is something that uh we slowly
upgrade computers as as needed. >> Last year I think we we had to replace 10 of them. >> 10 of them. So, I think that's what we're trying to budget is every year that we have 10 that we the way we could rotate through as the computers are.
>> You had to you had to replace 10 because 10 broke down during that time or >> No, not all 10 broke down. A couple of them did. We had a couple that did crash on us and definitely needed it. Couple of the other ones were replaced because they were older and they were trying to
upgrade >> from the same lots and >> Yeah. >> All right. Um, we'll flip over to EMS. >> We cut. You can't dispute anything for safety. >> Yeah, >> we got to keep all that. You know, we
cut we cut a lot out of EMS this year. We cut the uh an ambulance which was 249,000. Then there was um 65,000 we cut for the uh there's a um there's
that that stretcher that's our stretcher that helps you lift and into the ambulance. So that well because we're not getting a new ambulance we didn't need that uh stretcher too. So we cut that as well.
And they also had radios on there. But that is part of the overall big project um we had a meeting on because we have to up we have to upgrade the uh communications um for the town. So that they added that into there too. So we
took that out. We we cut a lot out of EMS. >> We're just on on uh EMS. There's no LOAP money budgeted. >> I think I think it's she probably has it
at one pool. >> It's under the other tab. Let me go back. >> 95,000 budgeted. >> Where where is that Phil? >> The summary sheet on section six on the last page.
>> Okay. >> Thanks, Bill. >> Yeah. On that same page, you're showing a $599,000 grant connecting the trails rail dot project with no cost.
>> Could we Could we still our cap? >> We're going to go through cap bill. We'll keep keep that one. Write a note for yourself. All right. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, back to fire. Yeah. The only question I have, I don't debate
whether or not we need any of these things. It's that some of them are so expensive. I mean, 120,000 for turnout gear, 30,000 for gear dryers, equipment, 50,000. Can we bond for that stuff instead of paying for it like this? Is
that an option? >> And I'm sure you could bond for everything you want, right? Um, >> no. No. there's some guidelines for bonding >> if it lifesp that's that's for a bond counselor to to advise us on and our CFO to determine
what things we can go out the bond for. So >> it's just a lot. >> Yeah. But that turnout gear, like I said, it's it's a we take a small uh percent of the fine minute. We we actually replenish
their turnout gear, so that's why we're not spending. >> They also expire. They're >> Yeah, that's the problem. they uh the dryers um because there's a there's a it's a I think it's a I think it's a mandate that uh every time
they're involved with uh any any kind of smoke that those jackets have to be washed and they have to be you know obviously the problem is that they would get washed um and then they'd have to
basically hung out to dry, right? But what happens if you got another call, right? In the dead of winter, you're you're putting on a wet jacket, right? So that's why the request because I question that those dryers. Um that's why it's
the right thing to do is to have a dryer there so they could dry those real quick so they can go back out. >> And is this one for each firehouse? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> This is stuff for safety. >> Vernon, I think Vernon has a a dryer now. So that's why I was going to say we have four apartments. Yeah. One of them
already has one. So >> yeah. So the things are for the safety of the town. Those get first priority. >> Yeah. I mean I don't have a problem with any of these things being on the budget. I would never suggest cutting any of this stuff. It's just some of it's so expensive if we could bond for it
instead of paying for it directly. But like you said, it's you can't bond for everything. It's worth looking into if we can bring the cost down. Are we keeping everything on the fire? >> Well, find out if we can bond for it. >> Yeah.
>> I mean, we'll have to do with safety. >> Yeah. >> Some of their reserves for it. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Their reserves. >> The money that they collect. >> Yeah. >> Well, there's there's reserves in in the in the fire department budget or in the
fire department sheet, isn't there? Yes, there is. Uh I got so many papers here. Um about 200 475 we have uh I think we have a uh on the AFS sheet
we're looking at $284,000. Is it Yeah. All right. Well, you know where we stand with this. If we can somehow pay for some other method or bond, that would be a big chunk.
>> Okay. Um, >> but I agree. I emailed Marcy asking about it and she's very helpful and I got um an answer that there was a NJD there's an echo. >> There's a bad echo.
>> Yeah, it's only on you. >> Well, >> it might be because of my microphone. >> I don't know. The reverb only happens on you. Maybe if I move this mic away. >> The microwave is not on. Oh, this thing. >> Okay, try again. >> Yeah, I got an email. There's an
inspection that was The NJ wants it to be replaced. They say it's in really bad shape. We wanted to see something more recent. >> I got the proposed schedule. I got a schematic. >> Okay, I'll take a look. >> I'll share it with you. I got it not too
long ago. Okay. Like a few hours ago. sold it. The owner Conway sold it to the lake community for a dollar. >> Yeah, >> that's what it said in those documents. >> And then later down Pardon? >> Like we ended up at Lake Wanda, too.
>> Wow. Yeah, we don't. >> That's even more. That's even more. Yes. No. Right. >> This is a yes and no, too. I guess >> he has. >> We got three letters from two letters from the secretary.
>> I didn't get anything. >> I didn't get any of those letters. >> I got four I got four documents that were all from between 2010 and 2013. I thought so. >> And that was all we received. Yeah. >> And there's a
>> dam that was from um >> Oh, I think I'm off the email list. >> No, I may not. >> Oh, you're not off the email list. >> You're on it.
>> Yeah, but I didn't get anything that was directly from Peter. >> Yeah. So anyway, that would be interesting to look at because that's a big chunk of money, too. >> Mhm. I agree. And that's that's that's only half of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, where's the timeline? So, what
more is going to be done next year? They can't do the whole thing in one year. >> It I'll I'll send it to you. >> They sent me the whole >> um for parks and recreation. Are we ready to move on? >> Yeah. For parks and recreation, the
stairs, um the snack bar, that's the only thing where I feel like if we can't bond for it, we shouldn't do that. >> That's fine. >> Yep. Because that's $40,000. >> It's a lot. >> And then the mulch, I mean, can't we use what we normally use? I mean, that's a
big chunk, too. That's $27,000 bonding. >> It's not mulch. >> It's plastic mulch. Rubber. >> Rubber. >> You can't put it on with that stuff. Otherwise, there are there are guarantees that are involved with these things.
>> Well, what have we been using all along? >> Just that. >> Rubber mulch. >> Rubber mulch. >> Not what I saw. >> It look like all shavings. >> No. Go like that and you'll find it. And they're they're they're set. They're they're different types of mulch. They come with the system. You buy a whole
system. There's turf. Uh was it turf? But I thought this was new that they're saying, "Oh, this is new. It's going to save us so much money." >> Yeah, she was saying that. >> But yeah, it it can be. But >> are we using it right now? Have we ever used >> I don't I think this is
>> You've used rubber mulch >> where >> same place at the >> playground. >> The playground. >> So then why are we buying more if we've used it already and it's there? It's supposed to be great. it gets lost or it simply, you know. >> No, let me I I
>> Does the rubber mulch look like >> um >> It looks like real mulch, but I think that Let's back up. I think that um >> I got pictures of it and it doesn't look like rubber mulch. >> I think they're they want to replace it. >> We want to replace the regular mulch, >> right? So, why can't the old stuff
whatever we used in the past that worked all these years, >> right? Well, that's >> that would save us $27,000 and maybe next year we could do it. >> What what we were trying to get at is um first off, the the rubber mulch is
safer, but we also we'd like to replace it with something that we don't have to So, you spend a little bit of money that will save you money in the long run, right? This way you don't have to. Regular mulch you have to replace. >> Yeah. >> This rubber mulch you don't have to replace. >> But what's the Do you know the price of
the regul? also have to get certified playground mulch which is extremely expensive per yard. >> So how much have we spent on it? >> I don't have the number on how much. >> Okay. Maybe that be something good to know. >> So we could do a comparison but at any rate.
>> Yeah. I mean this is obviously a lot more money than regular. >> Yes it is. That's a big chunk of change. >> Yep. But we could save money in the long run. Um, so there's a few dollars we can spend there or save rather.
>> Hey, those banners that you could you put up, how much do those cost and how much does it cost to make them? The banners that you sell to the service people that are on the telephone poll. >> Um,
what is the total? Well, I think it's $125 um for for the for the for the banner. Um at the time it included a um a donation
that we received from Sussex Cultivation. Um allowed us to reduce the cost um which they paid for all the P. Basically what we used we used the money for the polls um and we reduced the cost from $250 tound I think $125 or 150 I
think. Um so that's what the >> And does it cost 125 to make them? >> I don't know how much they were. >> We don't make anything on them. We we whatever whatever that number I don't have they got all the paperwork on there but um it's usually a lot more. Most
towns usually charge like $250. But but the fact that we had that donation that paid for basically all the hardware and it was just the the people just paid for the banner cost itself. So plus whatever I think shipping maybe and something I don't know I don't have to break down
exactly dollar for dollar on that banner but but uh they are paying for themselves at this stage. Well, it looks like some of that capital you could pair down. >> We made a lot of suggestions, but you
know where we're standing. >> So, let's let's go uh township properties. >> Township properties >> fighting for building. >> Yeah. the But that uh wasn't wasn't that going to be done through an
energy savings program? >> We're not looking. Um we just did >> Wait, we just got the actual um >> energy audit. Yeah, >> we had the energy >> um >> so we're still looking. >> I couldn't
Can Bill hear it? That would help prevent. >> No, because it still gets >> he just can't hear us now. >> It's It's the problem is he's got his >> Okay. Sorry.
Um, so, uh, >> that number is very, yeah, I mean, >> they left that in there, but, um, that number I, so I know we're had to up, we have to upgrade the lighting at the DPW. Um, and then we were looking to
upgrade through these programs, right? But we had to do the energy audit first. um problem is that a lot of those rebates are kind of a lot of them being they kind of gone at this point I think but we're still looking into it and I
said worst case then we'll do is just re replace the bulbs uh with LEDs and I recalculate about 10,000 just to replace all the bulbs with LED instead of replacing the fixtures um
which we were hoping with the the going through the energy programs. They a lot of them. We had one guy off the street came in and he he was going to pay for all the fixtures and half the labor. You got to just pay for the other half of
the labor. And it sounded good and then you give them the re so all those uh energy rebates, right? They get those rebates. But it was such a good deal. I wanted to do it, but you have to unfortunately have to do an energy
first. I guess a bid process have to go out to bid for it. So there is there is a process. We just got that that energy audit. Um I think you guys I think you do you get a copy of that? >> I remember seeing something about uh
u about the energy savings program because we did one when I was on the board of education that that basically pays for itself. But I also don't think $110,000 qualify for it either. Sorry, I got to step out. >> Yeah, that's that's was the I said um
I I know the first year was 165,000 to upgrade all the lighting in the buildings and then that's when I I recommend that we just replace the bulbs. Um but then like I said, we looking to go through the energy audit and and and see what programs are out
there. Uh that 110 is high. Um that's yeah but um >> but we are bonding for it. The only thing that seems to be a real chunk out of this budget would be the radio system. >> Yeah. >> But that that has to be replaced.
>> Yes. Yes. That's a must. >> Oh boy. All right. So in summation or we've gone through anybody else want to talk about what you would like to see different I mean you know where we stand what we'd
like to see. Uh we made suggestions and I would like to see these definitely brought forward because we all agree on them. Thank you. Um, I think really we just have to look through and see what raises we can cut
back this year. Um, who you're comfortable with, if you're going to have to cut anybody, who you would cut. Um, and the line items that we suggested like solid waste, beautifification. I said this before, but we can only
suggest a few things. There's a lot of to get to the number that we're comfortable with. You're going to have to make some tough calls. That's really I mean, when I first got on the board of ed, within my first three months, I had to vote on cutting 52 people and I was
in my student teaching, >> right? >> And but I remember thinking to myself, there's no other way we can get to a reasonable budget. It was the It was disgusting to have to do that, but it was the right thing to do in the end to balance things out. And it looks like
we're in a similar position cuz that's just too much to keep what we have in this. >> Well, I that was >> there's a big difference on what caused that problem than what's causing our problem. Their problem was caused by some
>> I don't think that's >> people that really broke and in my opinion broke the law. >> Yeah, >> we we don't have that case here. We have honest people. But what I'm looking at is uh a summary sheet on last page on
on six section six. What it shows that we budgeted 31.2 2 million 24 and actually spent 30.5. So we build in a surplus of 750,000.
And the next year in 2025, we budgeted 32.5 and spent 31.5. So that's a million. Now we're budgeting 35.5. And if we go on the same trend,
we're overbudgeted by about a million dollars or a million one. And that's what we're looking for with the work that we're doing right now. So I'm looking for the big numbers. And then I was speaking to Patty today and I
was asking her ho how do we cover the 1.1 million of the veteran disability forgiveness in the budget? Is it included in the numbers? Is it going to be added separately or how's that work?
And her answer was she going to have to contact the county to see where that would go, if it's already been included, and how it's going to be shown. I just hope it's not going to be shown twice and exasperates the problem that she's
not here this evening to answer that. She probably got the answer. Those are a couple big items that really and then Brad on the little tap it shows on 2026
proposed 95,000 2025 was 80 and it also shows year to date 2025 zero. We did spend around 80,000 last year. I don't know why it shows as zero. I think uh
well it shows show zero for 2025. Is that what you're saying? >> Yes. >> For 2025 it shows zero. >> Yeah. >> Budgeted for 50 or for 80 and it showed zero at year to date. >> What category was low?
>> Low set. Also another item here for 599,000 per grant which is on our side coming in with nothing going out. I don't know if that's throwing off the budget or what.
>> Yeah, that's that trail grant we we just received. I also see here for appropriation audit services. >> Yeah. >> Every Yeah. So 2025 we spent 10,000 but now for this budget 67,000
even in 2024 we spent 8,500. >> So I I asked that question. >> Oh I'm sorry. Four meetings ago. >> I didn't a few meetings ago. Okay. So the reason the one that she was here when she did the the kind of the introduction, it's because we don't pay
our audit fee >> until the following year. So it doesn't show up as an as of 1231 because it's paid in the following year. >> So shouldn't it still why should it be $67,000 though? That's what was spent
during the year in preparation for the audit. And then the actual audit is completed after 12:31 and gets to us in June or July. And after the audit is accepted by the council, then the audit fee is paid in
26 or 25. It basically goes >> Yeah. See, I don't understand that because every time we've paid out, it's been less. >> No. Well, >> because the fee is not in there. That that's what she was trying to say because
>> if go back to the first meeting, it's in the meeting for it's a fivem minute discussion I had with her. >> Yeah. And I guess I was thinking about something else. But it doesn't looks like we've ever spent that much. Why this year? >> I even specifically asked her where does
that money actually show up then? So she would have to run a as of like 123125 in order to capture the 24 number, but it has to have the 24
financials run into 25. It's a very confusing thing. I understand what she was saying, but what I don't understand is that money still needs to show up someplace because it's an it's part of your financials. It's an it's a it's an expenditure
that has you know it's encumbered in 25 but it's not spent until 26. So it's very it's it's very convoluted >> as things with government. >> We've always spent like why in this year
is that so expensive when every year it's not. But >> but that's not >> I still don't get it. I mean that's >> the audit fee is $26,000 or whatever the budget number. That's the audit fee that's in there. 60,0007,000 $67,000. That's the audit fee.
>> Okay. >> The the number that's the two the the yeartoate number is money that was spent during that calendar year >> 2025 >> working towards the budget, not the audit or working towards the audit but
not the completion of the audit. The balance of that money, which would be $60,000 or whatever the difference is, is actually paid the following year when the audit is done, completed, and accepted. >> And the audit's done every year.
>> Yes. >> I don't know about, but it's okay. I'll go with it. >> There's no way we pay $6,700 for an audit. >> 67,000. >> You just said it's $6,700. >> 67,000. that the year-to- date number was $6,700.
>> In 2025, year to date is $10,700. >> There's no way we're spending $10,000 on autoality. >> Every year we've paid less than $10,000, but this year we're paying 67,000. I just don't understand why. But if you understand it and it's correct, I'll
have to go with your definition. >> The cost of the audit was 67,000. It says 10,75. >> Yeah, it's been less. I think we need to get in for an order. >> All you got to do is ask for Miss
Vachia's contract and you find out what the audit fee is. That's all you got to do. >> Yeah. And it's in the reorg um >> that it's the service. >> No, you >> service amount services. Um,
>> so if we go on the same trend as we did the last two years, there's over a million dollars in the budget that's not going to be spent. There's going to be a surplus generated. So the question is, do we want to get surplus or we want to take that out now so we have a workable
budget? >> Then we're going to find ourselves looking for the same $100,000 next year. No. fun balance. It's supposed to be 10% of your budget. >> I don't think that's enough.
But >> yeah, I mean, I think that's the rule of thumb. >> Somebody asked that question. >> Yeah, >> you don't want to go under the 10%. And if you think it should be higher, I I would agree with you there.
Well, if we're going if it's actual spending in 2025 at 31.5, we're going to 35. That's uh $4 million increase. That's more than a 10% surplus. increase revenue.
>> All right. So, where do you guys want to go from here? >> I think we should wrap it up and find what Let's make a definitive list of what we'd like to see. >> Well, we made the list Monday. >> Make a list of the changes we'd like to see.
>> Um, some of them Some of them you guys were kind of >> all right. So I made a list and anybody can add to it. Um some of the revenue needs to be changed, right? We pointed that out. Um the meaning the court fees
and costs 85,000 we agreed. Correct. >> That was right in the beginning when they spoke. um reduce EDC, reduce beautifification,
remove solid waste, remove money from wreck, and it's all you're going to have to look at. You're guys going to have to make that one seemed a little outrageous because it's $20,000 and you have two employees in there. So, that was outrageous. So, that's the tip. But everybody, you're
going to have to look at everybody to get it down. >> And we we wanted a freeze on all hiring and internal >> freeze, higher freeze and a freeze from part-time to full-time and increase for the tax collector so we
can complant with the parody legislation. And then Bruce, Bruce, Brad, Pat, you guys were commenting on the capital budget. You want to give him any specifics? >> Just I think whatever we could pull out
that we could bond for, I would I would do that. >> Yeah. In particular, the heating >> or or delay it >> delay >> or delay it. Uh and the uh the issue of u the fire department on some that $2
million. I mean, uh, I'm not saying delay that, but certainly let's look at that from a, uh, you know, make sure that we're doing all we can to to reduce any particular costs on that. Although,
I can tell you, I've seen programs on on on video that uh, the availability of fire trucks is >> Oh. is way out there because they
they've they're there only a limited number of manufacturers too. >> Yeah. >> And you got to replace them every what 10 years or something like that. But there's only two manufacturers. >> Yeah. >> So that's why the weight is so long also. >> And really the the rest of everything to
get it to the point where we're comfortable. That's kind of that has to fall on you and the CFO and the administration to see what raises could be cut and what other cuts made. >> How about you give up your stipens? Won't do that. Save some money. How about you, too?
>> Well, I I'm here full-time working. >> Well, no, don't have to be, though. You got a BA, a very intelligent BA. She can run the show. >> So, Right. >> I don't think you understand what what goes on here every day. And I think and that's one of the things that I
recommend that you do. Uh >> I totally disagree that is that is totally wrong for us to be in this building to find out what goes on every day. >> Agree on that part. But but I think >> be running dayto day. >> We're not here to talk about her her her
role, okay, and what her duties are, okay? But what I what I'm what I'm stating is that you're going to start cutting a a cost of living raise to some employees. Um, have you looked to see
how underpaid years got a raise in how paid >> the staff is here already >> and they get paid very generous. >> No, they're not compared to all the other municipalities. They're un they're actually underpaid. And I rec
>> administration says that and then you bring them up and then in another few years, oh, they're underpaid again. >> Everybody tries to elevate them and they have been elevated. >> We have numbers to to to back that. I I think the I don't getting into it about
whe like the the cost of our >> at the end of the day the increase that's being asked for is not >> feasible that's Vernon is one of the last places in New Jersey where it's even remotely affordable to live people come here because taxes are lower and
there are times when they have to go up and yes I voted on it before but in this situation there's I think room and bring that number down. >> And I would like to see going to cut 7%.
>> I would like to see is what it looks like at 4%. Show us what it looks like. And if it's if it's an abomination where we're cutting things that we really shouldn't, then we can reassess. But we need to see what those cuts would look like. You have to decide what you'd be
comfortable cutting first. Show us what that looks like. >> Because asking us to vote for a 13% increase, >> it's it's not fair to everyone else in the town. When you're asking for an amount that large, you have to look at
what you can cut. And there's a lot of things in here that we've identified that could be cut already. I mean, the it it's not 13% and we've already cut five or six out of it. It's 13% in the draft. So, we're looking, we can see
solid waste, we can see beautifification, we can see there's raises going out to part- timerrs that bring them up a dollar or two an hour. Maybe we can't do those things this year, but show us what that looks like.
I mean, is that unreasonable? But at 4%, yeah, I I think >> take a look at it. You got to do it. >> Do it. Well, then >> got to do it. >> If you got to do it, >> you're talking about cutting services for the residents of town. What services will be cut? >> You have to show
>> I have to stop cutting employees. >> No. So now you're So you're not saying no. No cut employees. >> So we've been here for >> Well, show us if you could save your employees and keep it down to four. That's fine, too. But I don't think you're going to have to cut services. Not much is happening. Is there a lot of
building going on? Is there a lot a lot of I mean, no one's building anymore. I'm not saying that they don't have enough work to do. Well, what you should do is show us what would be cut. >> You You make the decision. You know everybody best. I guess you're right. I
shouldn't >> saying that that we are running lean to begin with. I've been I've been stressing this since pretty much >> maybe first year in office. >> Maybe some services new. Maybe we're a little too generous with our services.
Then you have to take a look at it. I don't I don't want to talk. I mean, really, if it's at 4% and we're cutting things that are absolutely necessary, show us that. I mean, show us what 4% would look like. Prepare that budget and
put in red what would be cut and let us look at it. And maybe it would be way too much, but we need to see what it would look like. And you have to decide as the CEO of the town what is top of the line to be cut, lower, bottom. I
mean, we have to see it. We can't get up there and just amend it the way that we That's not realistic. But we're not going to approve this much of an increase. I mean, it's pretty evident. You wouldn't have >> Don't approve it. >> And then what? >> But you have to make the change. >> I give you a budget on what it's going
to take to run the town. Listen, this is this is years of of the first I know you don't want to hear it, but it's a fact. Three years. >> You can't run it without a budget. >> Three years of 0% when you had double. Now, this has been stated every single time that this this why I came in
originally with a 4% trying to >> use fund balance to to do it. >> Oh, that's probably not happened. We were not I saying what we did 3 years ago. It has nothing to do with where we are now. I mean, yes, a 0% increase is what led to
this happening. I wasn't on the council then. I wouldn't have voted for that. >> Well, the majority of your council did, >> but that's irrelevant. The majority of the council is now >> it's irrelevant. More importantly, it has nothing to do with what's in front
of me. >> You got to give something reasonable. I mean, you like I said, nobody wants to Nobody wants to raise taxes. Believe me, I understand. >> But when you're going from 11 to 4 and you guys have been at this for weeks and and you >> No, no, we haven't been at this for weeks. You gave this to us last week.
>> We had five days or seven days. Okay. Well, it still hasn't been adopted yet. Okay. So, we look at when we gave it to you until now. >> And I'm going to point it out. This was supposed to be given to us February 27th. >> Correct. And and we explained because we didn't have a CFO.
>> Yes. >> But it's your budget. It's the in this form of account. It's your budget. >> The CFO. >> It's your budget according >> call it whatever you want, but the fact is the CFO is the one who puts all these numbers together. >> Again, all of that is kind of irrelevant. it done already before we
even got the CFO. But at any rate, >> I never said we had it done. >> Mayor, >> never said it's done. >> That argu like who was here? Who wasn't? It's irrelevant. We got it. We got it late and we're working on it late and we're finding that there's a huge discrepancy. >> You got it late for a reason.
>> There's a big discrepancy between what we're comfortable with and what you're presenting to us. And we're saying to you, this is what we might want to cut. Then please prepare it with this much. show us what you would cut and you're saying, "Well, if you're not comfortable with what I'm giving you, don't vote for
it." That's not a sustainable plan. You have to work. We've already, like I said, we we've cut a lot. Um, and I I didn't disagree with 90% of it. Um, I think it was good. I think it's good that we we we try to come together and
work on some things, but I think sometimes you ask um that's that's a large number and um it's like I said, if you gave gave me something that's, you know, reasonable, right? It's not reasonable and like I said, nobody wants
to deliver that kind of, you know, that type of budget. And I get it. >> All right. Well, we said what we want. We got to go. >> Yeah. >> This is going on. We just go round and round and round, >> right? >> So, when will we get do we want to do another work session?
What do we want to do? See the budget before it gets >> No, I think we need to see a a final proposal from the administration. >> So, do you want it introduced or just a final like draft? That's up to that's up to the >> we have we have a certain date has to be
introduced by >> I think that's uh I I don't recall what that date is but that if uh if we have time after that then we just take that number but uh I think the next set of numbers we have we receive should
reflect what the administration feels they can do or and and the reductions that we've we've recommended. Do you want to see that before it's introduced? >> No. That the the budget has to be introduced by a certain date. Whether
it's that's by law. So, we're going to have to what numbers come here are the numbers that are introduced. >> It would normally work that well. That would be Monday then. >> It would normally be intro. We're expecting the budget to be formally introduced Monday, right? >> Yes. Yes.
>> That you guys have to vote on that. >> What's that? >> That's up to you. It'll be on the agenda, but you have to vote. Introduce it. >> Yeah. And then you have time to when is it to knock it down? >> Well, we can make amendments.
>> Yeah. Before Before it gets adopted. Yeah. >> Could be based upon what the the administration recommends. >> Okay. Just so everyone knows, I am scheduled to uh be flying to Houston on
Monday. I changed my flight so I can get there early so I can zoom in. >> That's is that's if everything goes according to plan for the airlines. So I will be in touch with either Bill or Sandy. I know Bill will be zooming as
well >> to let you know if everything is still on schedule. So >> you got a feel of what you want. So, >> we all have a feel of what your suggestions were and and we'll advocate for you as well. >> Yeah. When I was in Nashville, I tried
it an hour and 15 minutes beforehand and finally got on 15 minutes beforehand. So, >> okay. Want to adjourn? >> I'll make a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Thank you. >> I I favor I >> I >> All right, Bill. Thank
>> I I >> Thank you, Bill. Marcy, are you offline now? >> I'm on. >> Did you want to say something about you want Brad?