Any of us? We may have have We're okay now. May I have a Excuse me. May I have a reading of the meeting statement, please? news provided to the public in the press in
January 19, 2025 and was posted at the municipal SA 104-7. Will you please rise and join me at the pledge to our flag? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the
republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Council member Bushier here. Council member Genero pres this evening. Uh
based on our agenda discussion item, the request of the mayor for a discussion on gun carry permit. Um don't anticipate any action on it other
than discussion. Would anyone like to open up the discussion? [Music] I I think the mayor should, you know, tell us why he wanted us to. Hi. Um, thank you, Council President.
Um, in June of uh 2022, the Supreme Court ruled uh in the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus Brewing case.
this case um was a huge impact on how uh how the second amendment really uh should be laid out and that is uh the right to to keep and bear arms. But the
the the issue with the the brewing decision was because of the uh having uh no longer requiring um a justifiable need in order to carry or
to legally carry a firearm. So that decision um at the federal level, Supreme Court weighed in on uh sent waves um especially to New Jersey state on on how they can now prevent people
from carrying firearms. Um like I said, I think it I think it's you know the right of the people to keep shall not be infringed and I think our founding fathers have been very clear when they said shall not be infringed. The governor has made it very clear on to
why he set high fees. These fees went from $50 to $5 for a firearms ID card for a application for a handgun went from $2 to 25. And I believe the
concealed carry went from $25 to $200. Um made it very clear on why he's uh why he enabled these fees. uh to be this high. And these fees, especially if uh
substantial, can effectively price out certain individuals from exercising their right to own firearms, effective effectively infringing on the second amendment. This also violates the 14th amendment as well that apply to most of
the bill of rights, including the second amendment to the states. This means that the state and local governments cannot infringe upon rights guaranteed by the second amendment just as the federal government cannot. Now, that being said,
um I have met with a lot of people who tell me they they cannot afford it. The the cost for a constitutional right to carry is probably just over $500 between the uh the qualification, which is
around I think $300. Guess what I paid uh and then it's $200. $226. I think 26 goes to a for a background check and 150 to the municipality and 50 to the state.
Now these this fee is not we're not looking to remove uh the qualification process, the background check. It doesn't make anything unsafe. It just allows people to exercise that fundamental right without
having that cost. Now, that cost is every 2 years they have to renew this. Now, I I I don't want to diminish the the work that goes into doing these investigations. If there's a clean record, it's it's it's pretty quick um
on how that goes. Obviously, if there's an issue on someone's background, it it it can go into quite extensively. Um, but I just want to one of the things that I guess they they tried to instill
was that these gun own like the New Jersey was going to turn into this wild wild west. Uh, there was the crime was going to go up. But I just want to tell you what exactly and this is from
the horse's mouth. On January 8, 2025, Murphy announced the following. crime in the state of in the state for 2024. The results include the lowest number of shootings in state history for a second year in a row. In 2024, 778 victims
suffered gunshot injuries in New Jersey. a drop of 16% from 2023, officials said when when a then record low of 924 shooting victims marked the first time that that fewer than 1,000 gun violence
victims were recorded uh since tracking began in 2009. Of the total victim shot in 2024, there are 152 fatalities, a reduction of 20% from 2023. Mur Murphy also announced an
11% decrease from 2023 in autothefts. According to state police, the total number of thefts went from 16,694 in 2023 to 14755 statewide last year
since the Berlin decision today. Don't quote me on this, but I the number that I received was over 62,000 concealed carry permits have been issued in the state of New Jersey. And do you want to know how many crimes
were committed with those concealed carry holders? Zero. Zero. Now, we can choke it up as, you know, the last two years, we've been known as the the safest uh town in New Jersey. Um, I I know Trenton doesn't
want to admit that maybe maybe this because concealed carry has now made its way, but it should not be a burden on on the individual who's trying to exercise their right. Um, so that's why I'm bringing this. This is something that's
supported um through uh members of our assembly. uh LD2 most of the uh again I I haven't put every single person in the LD24 but it's uh I I believe they stand behind that as well. It's it's it's something that again it's a
constitutional right and and it shouldn't be the fee shouldn't be that high for it. I mean what are we going to do next? We're going to tax voters. How about there's an emission at the door here that everyone has to pay a fee to speak right? It's it's what are we going to
tax next? Um, so this is why I felt that it's this is something that should come to the table. It should be looked at and and considered. Thank you. Question regarding
regarding the fees that you're talking about, are these fees mandated? Are these required by the state? They're not required. They are recommended. Correct. You can get a gun without So you can get a gun without paying a
fee. No, you have to pay the fee about a concealed carry permit, not a So So there there's a charge I believe you have to make to the state police and then there's a charge to the town. You'd you'd only be talking about the town portion, right? Just the town portion. What is the town portion? Uh for concealed carry, it's $150.
$250. It's a total of$ 250. $50 goes to the state. Well, let's just talk about what we can correct. What affects what we have? $150. So, it's $150 and that do we pay for any of the background checks? You so you
does our township pay for any of those? So, what happens is the individual would have to fill out a form from the state police. They have to get people that know them, character references. That goes to those uh emails. The person gets it, fills it out. It goes to the um
goes to the state police. They all really they're doing is looking to make sure the person doesn't have any type of um criminal record. Then it goes back to your local uh police department. They do their investigation. make sure you know
maybe there's no ordinances or if there's a known person that has come through the municipal court, the chief of police has the ability to flag the uh for fact he's he's had to go to court. Yeah. Um
so we don't pay the tent doesn't pay for the background check. That's already that's part of the the $50 fee that's sent to the state police. Correct. That correct? Yeah. So that that that fee that you're paying for is what the police do. You maybe you may want to get some
information from the police officer who does the backup. Yeah. And some of them are somewhat extensive. I heard some um you know police departments they had a backlog when it first started because well I think really they didn't know what to do because it was a new process. But they do have to do follow up. They want to talk to make sure that
there's no um issues. Maybe they, you know, look at their their their files because there's things that happen in a town that don't go on like ordinance violations that doesn't go on a on a criminal record. And then the every two years, Anthony, is that with our town or is that with
the state that that that's that's the state requirement. Every the two-year carry purpose is carry. So, they have to go through a brand new application process including our town fees at the current ordinance every two years. Yes, every two years.
I'll tell you that Florida I think was was under a hundred bucks and five years. Well, we don't have to say this unfortunately. Right. And it's interesting because that that one goes to the agriculture board. It it's a whole different um department
and I think uh Pennsylvania was $25 for five years. Um so again, this this was driven by Murphy. It's and it's clear. Who who made the decision for the 150 though? Where did that number come from? That came from the recommendation from the state
and then that was actually put into our our fee ordinance and I watched it. I mean it wasn't it was put in with everything else. So it wasn't like it was Yeah. It wasn't separate. Yeah. It wasn't a topic of discussion of why that was happening. Right. Yeah. I I think obvious I mean the
assumption was that that was what the state was charging us and we were just recouping what state fees were, but I didn't realize that that was that's that's coming to our y account and not going back to the state. Again, this this started in Englishtown,
they passed it. Um Franklin Franklin uh just passed it is passing it. Um this seems to be going across New Jersey. um push back on on what that agenda was. And again, it's it's a fee that
me it infringes. Um look, and I and I try to I try to cut every dollar where I can, try to save where I can, but believe me, um but there's certain things that I just feel like it's shouldn't be paying for. I mean, that's just my opinion. Um I think many many do
agree to that. Um who was responsible for doing the background checks in the community. Well, police department does. They they Well, I think I think it goes to No, don't me on that. Goes to the state police for a criminal background check. Then comes
correct your chief. But doesn't does not one of our officers also validate that that action? Correct. They'll follow up too. Like I got to follow up when I apply for my carry. I got a phone. But how many hours do you
know that it takes for one of our officers to it? Well, they they have it they have it here that um so I guess they have some dispatches uh that assist in the process. Um so they have
roughly close to three three hours. Um that again that's that's an applicant with no issues. Um so it's within three hours. My understanding is based upon the comments from Chief Young when he was
here and talked about this this uh his responsibilities and what was going on that he needed to have um a sergeant tasked to do this pro to to do this
project to do the handle these responsibilities and I think based upon what uh we're looking at here and with the additional people. Would you say that have any idea
what it takes for the sum total of one of our people or two of our people to handle this? That means going through doing the background check, interviewing and whatever they have to do and then then you know sending it back,
right? like I um well again would I guess it would all depend on who the investigation officer is and how much he's making. Um but I guess there's a total uh it could be a total approximately $175. Um I was
What's a total of $175 on here? It's it's stating that it could be a total of our time. But again, that's that's an estimated number because it's approximate because Yeah. How do you you know uh it depends
on the the people that are involved um that have to go through the process and review it and uh dispatch time like that the process of reviewing on our end and maybe our attorney can answer this better that is also mandated by the
state. So the the checks that our police department does. So they they allow you to to charge that money. They charge that. But then but I'm talking about the work. So like the the applicant the way the law is written. Yes. It comes back to we and we have to finish that work. Yes.
And and he sign the chief signs. So I'm sure there's documents or a checklist or a policy that he needs to follow, you know, to do his due diligence before that concealed carry permit is. Um well based upon his comments uh and his
report and I'm reading from the report that he gave town for the township gave to the township uh New Jersey firearms carry permits investigations yearto date this was in 2024
and as of 1031 so we still had two months to go you're looking at 1,100 79 carry permits. Wow. In our town. In our town. And that's and we collected
a total of 48,320. And my recollection is that was one of the reasons why he wanted to have sergeant involved. Let me and I don't think a sergeant makes you know minimum pay. Now let me uh this is this is from the
chief. So in 2024 139 permit to carry uh permit to carry was issued. 139 13900 Oh um and as of today of June 12th 76 permit to carry
has been issued. That's it. But you got to do you have one it's every two years right? So, so one year you'll have a lower a lower uh uh and probably when it passed a lot of
people went and got their carry and then been going up since these these investigations seem Yeah. Right. I'm giving the one that I But but that investigations could also mean so if you're a youth um on youth
sport very very clear. So are we only issuing 10% of the ones that apply? That can't be. There would be huge loss numbers don't right what's that? That report says that we did over 1100 investigations by the end of October. But you're saying we only issued like 110 in 2024.
Now I don't know if that I I have to look at that report. Um I don't Oh okay. Wait, wait, wait. Is that any type of firearms purchasers permit or is that just No, it says carry permits. New Jersey investigations total. There is no open carry in New Jersey.
No open carry. No. notes. No, the point that I'm making is what we're looking maybe said cat. We need clarification. We're we're looking at a substantial number of carry from it. So, I have no problem with the issue at hand. That isn't the question. The question is is
that the amount of money that this has generated is almost $50,000 and I think that's a total I don't think that's right. I don't think 1100 carry I think it's 1100 purchasers per I think it's 1100 investigations whether they're purchas I'm only reading
with three permits at a time yeah I I agree that you just gave me because that that those numbers are you know it's a tenth of what was the investigation's done that doesn't make sense that only 10% of the people are
getting a permit yeah no there's no way no but I could see if it was everybody who was purchasing a a handgun Yeah, this may these investigations may be all but the word carry in that sentence
and that confuses it. We need clarification. We'll clarify that. Yes, absolutely. But the point I'm making is regardless of what we're looking at, we have a revenue stream of almost $50,000.
and to categorically say we're going to refund that amount, it wouldn't be it would be proactive, wouldn't be retro. Thank you. Yeah, I I was not in favor of doing a reimbursement. I think I don't know if that came from another township
that that resolution. But again, that raises the question of then who absorbs the cost of those investigations? Well, taxpayers bill, right? But I understand everything else the taxes.
If you're talking about an unfunded mandate, this is about as close to an unfunded mandate as you're going to get. And you know, I have no problem with somebody coming in and saying, you know,
I would like to have a carry permit. We have to then provide all the documentation and everything. They go ahead and they do it. Now somebody else come in now. So everything Oh, no. Somebody else comes in and says, "Why do I have to pay for somebody to
carry a firearm? We're the safest town in New Jersey. I It's one of the reasons why I moved here. Is it necessary for me to have a firearm on my person in order to do this?" I just question whether or not we
are wise in requiring all residents to share in the responsibility for a smaller group to be able to carry a firearm. Why should I pay? And by the way, I
mean, suppose you were to have 15 firearms and 15 different types of pistols. I guess that would stay the same. Can only carry one pistol at a time. You have to qualify for
So, but still it's the issue becomes why does why does the the average taxpayer who's maybe not in favor of this have to share in that in in in that cost? I I just don't think that's
something that's that's something that we should do. Well, we can argue that with every other uh fee that we charge. Well, that and I think that's part of the problem because now look at building permits, electric permits, you know, all these other permits that people have to file when they come in. They're coming
to get those permits for their property, right? Yeah. So, I think that's that's a concern. I have Mayor and I had a conversation about this this afternoon. Um, and just going I'm not a gun owner or anything like that, but I have no problem with people carrying their own guns. place in
North Carolina. Very often I go out for dinner, there's a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his head. It doesn't bother me. Matter of fact, I feel much safer when that's happening. Um, but I I do have a little bit of an issue of the tax base picking up that balance that's there. I don't know if there's a way
that we can have find a way to do a hardship exemption or something like that um to for those people who who it is a true hardship for. Um, I'd be interested in seeing that. I'd also like to see some more firm numbers as to how
many manh hours it does take for whether it be a dispatcher or a sergeant or whoever to do these investigations because let's face it, you know, some of our police officers are, you know, with overtime and everything, they're they're running, you know, 120 $150,000 a
yearly. that comes out to be quite some um that it I think it actually their time that they put into probably exceeds the $150. So what the chief wrote down here it's 3 hours of a streamlined application total
cost approximately 175. So if he did break out um what that what that's the amount of I want to hear what Jessica has to say and it's just none of these other permits that we're paying for or built around a constitutional right any gun law honestly any gun law any fee is an
affront to our second amendment right. We should not be we should not have to pay fees to protect ourselves. It's written into our constitution. But back but that and and not not to argue or just but back then too there wasn't any background checks that had to be done. There was nothing that went
into it when the when the Constitution was written that people had to go ahead and and pay pay a fee or have background checks or anything like that. People just they had the right to bear arms, right? People still do have the right to bear arms, but now society has evolved
to a fact that now unfortunately we have to go ahead and put extra resources to it in order to to see if that person is fit to to carry it on but shall not be infringed. I and I get I I totally understand that.
But and that's why I said maybe there needs to be a hardship exemption then then there is no infringement because let's say somebody is a millionaire, right? they have that same right to go ahead and carry as a person who um has some economic disadvantages. So there I
think and I totally understand and I get where you're coming from too, but I'll never waver on my position, but I understand where you guys are coming from and the fiscal responsibility we have to the town and the other folks. They're taxpayers, the other taxpayers. But you know what I mean,
they'll not be infringed for me. But then how do you resolve that then? Like are you okay with other taxpayers putting the bill for something that they're you know like I'm getting a pool permit and no no I'm not I'm not is not in the constitution.
No it's not it's not it's not although I don't I don't um but the township I'm torn with this I'm really torn with this. Fair enough. I'm really torn with I believe that there is a a gun association group and probably one of the people out here probably knows it more than I do that
there may be an action against the state over that issue uh that you cannot tax a constitutional right on that issue and that may resolve it for the whole state but until that time I think individual governing bodies have that ability and I think that's probably the
reason why the mayor brought it to the council correct mayor correct yes I mean it's not a tax it's a fee and I know a fee is there's another way say tax, right? Yeah. But um well, I think there's a lot of important points made, but we don't have the
information. I think Mr. Mayor, you got to come up with some some answers as to how many permits are really issued currently,00 to 139 is a big difference. 20 2024 139 carry permits were issued.
That was one year and I think Mr. Razudo that was background checks. That was too. That was background check. That was background check. That could have been for that could be for Well, it could be for rifles. It could be for pistols. Might not be for concealed carry. It
could just be a person. So, I I even have the numbers here. Um, so for an example, FID cards in in uh 2024, 310 um pistol permits 730 and carries 139. That was
Yeah, that adds up to that. Yeah. Uh so far to uh as of June 12th June 12th uh 123 FID cards, 285 handgun permits and 76 carry permits. Still haven't resolved the question that
I raised and Mrs. Fury was mentioning this. Why then should an individual taxpayer be forced to to pay in order to help somebody else be able to carry a
firearm? The the the gun laws the these permit fees uh were implemented back in 1966 and have not been changed until the brew. Excuse me. We we we operate under existing laws, right?
Well, this is it was wasn't a law. It was a recommendation. The 150 was a re 150 is a recommendation. Did we make profit on the 150? No. It doesn't sound like it. Nothing can answer that question. Well, no. He said, "What's the true cost?"
He said it was 175. He he said it twice. For the chief, it's 175 per concealed carry. So, we're not profiting on it. But in effect, I don't think he can answer that question that way. I I think he said it that he said it twice. Chief Young has it broken down
has it broken down dollars per application. You said that per application or per investigation successful permit issue per carry application but in effect that's a standard still saying is even if you were to
break it down to the point where you were everyone were to share and share equally somebody would be paying for the the ability for somebody else to
carry a firearm. But Pat, so many people without children in this town pay for other people's kids to go to school. It's the cost of belonging to society in which we have. True. You're right. Thank you. But each one of them have the responsibility
to shoulder that that cost because that's something the way we've been doing it all along. But so is our constitutional right. If it was our second amendment, our first if we're going to get into that, there probably
other areas that we would be able to to bring up and and find ways to fund our education better. Well, you know, get me started here. Exactly. But I I think the point is is
that we're looking at a $50,000 No, it's not. Not 50. Excuse me. And we got to get let's get the I have the number right here here. The amount of money for actual
for actual uh uh we received in 2024 was $50,554. It was in the budget. Not that's not for for carry permits. No, it was in total firearms. Well, yeah. We're not talking about firearms and handgun permits. We're just
talking about carry permits. Even if we should talk about those, I would think that they're they're they're not only um they're intertwined in some way. No, they're separate.
Separate fees for each separate. Yeah. Well, there's a higher fee. Like the FID card is how much? Uh well, it went from $5 to $50, right? You know, it wasn't like a small fee went up. economic going to go to 750 from 5 to
it went up it it went up 10 times yeah from 5 to listen you don't have to I think much everybody here has disdain for trend none of us are happy with that to restrict unowners that's that's and he's made it clear I
mean this is no secret if he was here he'd probably tell you the same and the insurance well 2019 Governor Murphy um what he did was This this is a good gonna enjoy this one. What he did is he contacted he said an
executive order 83 um prohibiting self-defense uh insurance. So well well what happened? So yeah 2009 he signed executive 83 which directed the state department of banking and insurance to take action against insurance policies
that encourage firearm use including those of self-defense. Well, when they passed the brewing decision and it came time to all the laws, the laws were so bad where gun owners couldn't even leave their house. I mean, you couldn't carry in your car. You couldn't do anything.
And one of those uh restrictions, one of those things was you had to have insurance in order to carry. Well, how do you get insurance when the governor has already uh threatened to find people uh and shut them down for insurance
companies? this was not doing us to me is we we're continuing that uh gun control uh agenda that the Murphy's administration has set out to do. And
like I said, it affects people. I I've had veterans who told me, disabled veterans who told me that they're on a fixed income. They cannot afford the $500 and something dollars every two years for for a concealed carry permit. I've had people, regular people tell me,
I I can't afford it. Like I said, uh Pennsylvania was 25 uh and it's five, seven years. We're talking two years every two years. That's a lot. A lot of money. Can't do anything about that either. We're we're only we can only chip away
at this at this issue if we choose to. Interestingly, on a different subject, but somewhat alive to this, there was a breakdown in on the township
and it was talking about basically affordability with her household earnings. Household earnings 100,000 or more increased significantly in Vernon Township.
1999 only 14 basically 15% of the households earn between 100 and 150,000 uh dollars that share rose to
21 and 21 almost 21%. Similarly, the percentage of household earnings between 150 and 199 grew from 3.4% to 16.9%.
And those earnings time frame though from one to one this in 25 years. Yeah. But you can't even $100,000 in 1999 was like fortunately within place. Can I make a suggestion here?
uh you know obviously this has some constitutional infringement there. So can I ask if we can write a letter along with um our board of commissioners and
our LD24 representatives uh to whoever we need to in the state basically saying that we think that this is infringing upon constitutional rights of New Jerseyians and send it to surrounding towns. We've got we've gotten these letters of support before um from
surrounding towns for the Delaware National Park and all this other stuff. Why don't we start a grassroots campaign? Because I I have to say what what Jess said about the you know societal benefit and of you know there's people in this town that never have a kid in the school and they pay for
school taxes swayed me on this. That's why I think discussions like this are very important to have because it's something that, you know, I don't think you would have said to me, you know, on the side or anything. So, I I appreciate that comment. Um, and we do have, you know, representatives in here
from our commissioners if that was something that they'd be willing to help on board with as well to sign a letter of support saying that this is uh unconstitutional, infringes upon the rights of of New Jerseyians and send it to other towns for their support as well. Is that something that the
council's willing to get behind? I'm not a problem. Not for sure. Can we have the attorney? Can we Can we have attorney draft up that letter? Put on like a resolution. Yeah. Resolution. Resolution of support.
Any other comments? Maybe we also might want to include in that a resolution of support for any type of assistance that the state could give us. Absolutely. For the unfunded mandate that we have
that Mr. Higgins up another unfunded mandate for the for department has to do. There is there is work that our police department is mandated to do by the state. Correct. Yes. Um not mandated to charge, you know, to
have a fee, but is mandated to do um and unfunded by Trenton. Again, Mr. Mayor, when you brought this up, did you have a recommendation to make a for us to consider? What would you like to be?
I I would love for it to go back to the way it was before the Brewing decision, which was um I think it was like a $25 fee for carry and uh $5 for firearms ID and $2 for handgun permit. Uh, like I
said, I think it's this came out of this decision. Um, we can't do that. So, what would you want Vernon to do? Well, there there is the $150 fee at the municipality for concealed carry. Okay. That's the permit. That's what you're looking for, just the
concealed carry portion right now. Yeah. Your recommendation. Myself uh and many gun owners in in the town um feel the same as well. And and it really it irks me to the core when when I when I hear veterans uh talk about the fact that they cannot afford
um over $500 for concealed carry to get a 500. You have to pay uh uh like a gun a gun qualify in the range. Yeah. By the way, like I'm I'm all for the qualification and the background permit uh fee. I I
understand it. I get it. Um and that this does not remove that. But the fact is it's it's I think it's around 300 I think total is like over $500 five and a quarter uh between the the qualification
uh cost um and the the the training uh again to the 200 $226 for um for the municipal and and state as well. So, it's a total of over $500
uh every two years that you would be considered to pay. Good. I'm in the camp with you. Keep it as low as possible for as long as possible. Everybody has their rights and we pay for things that we don't use or other people don't use and it's the good
of all. So, it's thrown into the pot. Oh, yeah. And uh it's got to be thrown in there. Any other comments? Moving on. Mayor's comments. Today, I'd like to thank the council for
uh accepting my request. Um that I hope to pass the parking ordinance for our gold star members. Few months ago, Vernon initiated the hometown heroes banner program which honors our veterans. I'm very honored to see so many Vernon residents who served
and are currently serving in our military are recognized today. Vernon Township recognizes the sacrifice that all gold star family members make when a father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, or other loved one dies in
service to the to the nation. The brave men and women of our armed forces represent the very best of our great nation, matched only by the families who walk beside them in their service. Americans of every generation ow debt of
gratitude to the men and women who gave their lives in service to this nation and to their families who remain forever changed. I know this recognition and this parking sign um can never
replace those who lost, but I hope a Gold Star family member when parking on any of our Vernon Township properties knows that our hearts and prayers are always with them and we will never forget the difficulties the Gold Star
family member lives each and every day. Council President, that's all my comments. Thank you. May I have a motion to open the fourth public comment? Moved by Mr. Benadetto. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Higgins. All in
favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. Floor is open to the public for comments on agenda items only. Second one. This may be four. How's everybody? Rachel Rodriguez back on council. Just to help you guys
clarify a little bit of the process with the gun refund, that $200 you pay to the state is paid by the individual who wants to carry that concealed carry permit. The taxpayers and their entirety are not paying correctly to carry a weapon. So, Council President Razudo,
you pay $200 online, that $50 goes to the state police. That $150 comes to the town. Essentially, you guys would be giving you specifically back your own money that you already paid. No. know if you look at the flip side that is it okay for the taxpayers of Vernon to benefit off the minority that want to
apply for those concealed carry permits you can see it both ways so this is a mandate that's coming through and if you wait for the state to do it it's never going to get done so the message to the state is we're going to take into our own hands and we're going to do it because that's what we believe in we believe in we believe in the right to bear arms now the money if you follow
the money straw that comes in that $150 goes to your general operating budget the police department is not being defunded any of that because the work is going to get done regardless and I am a staunch police supporter being a wife of the first responder. So the council needs to discuss and then decide once
you get the actual facts and the numbers you know for hope it's us as a council cannot find other routes of revenue. Shame on us for not being creative enough or working diligently enough to find that funding because those choosing to conceal carry should not be
benefiting the rest of the taxpayers. So, just something to consider when you guys do that. That $150, the person who pays, it's just their own money coming back to them, nobody else's. Thank you. [Music] Good evening. Uh, my name is Joseph
Leaporto. I'm the director of legal operations for New Jersey Firearms Owner Syndicate. I'm also standing here representing the National Rifle Association and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I want to thank the council for the spirited debate tonight. I certainly hope that in coming meetings you will
bring this resolution forward for consideration and for a positive vote. Um we obviously on behalf of our millions of members across the United States states and nearly 100,000 members in the United in in the state of New Jersey. Uh we strongly believe in the right to keep and bear arms. Um it's a
core constitutional right. The Brewan decision has been discussed greatly this evening. That part of the holding in that case was that the second amendment is not a secondass right. It is treated the same as all core constitutional rights. And I don't think any of us here would accept a pole tax. I don't think
any of us here would accept uh a high prohibitive fee on the right to exercise my right to free speech, to assemble here and to address our government, to practice religion or any of those things. So, uh, B the Brewing Court made it clear the Second Amendment is
identical in all ways to all of those other core rights and we should treat them the same. The general police power is there. It is a it is a burden and a cost to the municipality and they do provide an important service and public safety is important, but we don't we don't do billing arrangements to figure
out who pays for what when the police need to do something. um you we can't hide these rights behind high prohibitive uh pay walls in New Jersey. I I apologize that this has become such a confusing topic. Uh Trenton has certainly made it that way.
Um I I don't have numbers to verify for Vernon, but it it certainly sounds right to me that there would be less than 200 carry permits outstanding in Vernon. And I could certainly understand over a thousand firearms related applications coming to the police department every year. There are three types of permits
in New Jersey. There's a FID card, a purchase permit, and a carry permit. The defects in our statute under 58-3 uh that disqualify somebody from exercising any one of those uh permits is the same, and the background check is
identical. So, every single one of those background checks is involves the same process. yet it costs $25 for one permit and $50 for another permit and $150 for another permit when the work is identical. Um,
and and as Mayor Rossi pointed out, before these laws were enacted in December of 2022, uh, those fees were a fraction of what they are today. And as far as a carry permit is concerned, before December of 2022, there was a $25
fee for a carry permit that was increased to $50 just prior to Sorry, your time's almost up. But that was paid to the county, not to the municipality. Those background checks were performed at no cost and no reimbursement to the municipality itself. Those were paid to the county
for uh for a hear to cover the cost of the hearing to determine whether or not Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening. Tim McQuade, 20 Coney Road. I just like the the redundancy brought up. Now, if if you wanted to carry a handgun, that was your goal. You
have to get the ID card and go through the background check. You have to get a permit, go through the background check, and apply for the carry permit and get the background check. You have to do all three. do all three at the same time. The police are not doing this the job three times. But the redundancy is
ridiculous. I also like to point out that 29 states in this country do not require permit at all. Period. That's the constitution. Thank you. How you doing? Uh from Michael Franklin. Uh we were one of the second one in line to pass this uh the resolution. If
you're really going to break down the cost per police officer's time, why don't you do that for everything? A $20 summon that gets tossed out in court. How long does that take? You can't break it down per hour to try and figure out a cost. This is a constitutional right. That's been said before. What else are
you going to charge us for at this point? I understand I'm in your seat too as far as bringing in revenue and and making the budgets pass and whatnot, but this was never meant to be a revenue. This is just another burden is what it is. Plus, it's not even a consistent. You're going to see one year high
numbers, one year low numbers when you have your renewals come in and a couple of the people that are trying in between to get through. Um, I strongly suggest that you do think about the people in this town, the ones that want to defend themselves, the one that want to exercise their amendments and everything that the state is putting us through.
Look at the budget the state just passed. Wait till that burden hits us all. Like we talked about before with the school. That's a burden that we're all uh putting together. And you talk about fees and the letter that you want the admin u the attorney to write. How much is that letter going to cost you? Think about that fee that now the entire
town is going to have to pay for. It's the same thing. If you're going to really break it down per dollar, what parts are considered a right and what parts are considered a requirement? So really consider passing it. Thank you. Thank you.
Uh, good evening. Alan Henderson, Lafayette Township, also county commissioner. Why? I understand you want to write to us a letter in support. I understand that entirely, but I think the ultimate ball stops right here. You guys pass this ordinance. It's up to you guys to fix that ordinance. Believe me,
as a retired police officer, I understand the right to carry weapons and all in support of that. But it's your ordinance. I mean, will they support you? I can only speak on behalf of myself, not my colleagues. But I think it's a decision this court has to make on their own.
Thank you. Jennifer Johnson, Council President. Uh we are going to actually be passing this resolution on Wednesday. Um we discussed it at our last council meeting on the second. Uh we had overwhelming support from the council to put this on the next agenda. Um some things to
consider. We are doing ours moving forward. We are not retroactively refunding the permits on our CFO's advice because the budget's already done. So to go back to January 1 would be contraindicated for our budget.
But we're going to be doing it going first as of August 1st responding the 150. And we're also giving 30 calendar days. You come in with a receipt that is within 30 calendar days of the purchase and you are given you're given your
refund of $150. Um, I also wanted to note that inflation over the past 5 years has been insane, right? Everything's gone up 5%, 7%, 10%. There is nothing that has gone up 10%. 100% a
thousand% because five to $50 that's that's a big jump from 25 to $200 that's even that's even bigger and it is a burden for your concealed carry applicants who are obtaining firearms
the right way, the legal way in New Jersey. And so punishing them by giving them a $150 fee for a constitutional right is just not right. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to come forward?
Seeing no one wishing to have a motion to close the floor of the public. Moved by Mr. Higgins. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mrs. Deette. I'm sorry by Ms. Sure. Um all in favor signify by saying I.
I motion. All members have received a copy of the bills list. Any comments regarding that been really diligent on putting one of trust on there. Dell. Thank you.
hearing. No comments. There's there's one on here. 64184 Lake Pochung Outing Associations Ellie Bill reimbursement. Yep. reimbursement for um services that we do
not uh we don't these were well these were old reimbursements from 2019 through 2023 I was waiting for backup from that um community for a number of years so the community provided services that we normally would provide plowing
and they did it on their own and two years later they're asking like reimbursement if they were in some of this case yeah is is there any limit on that if they they entitled to it. No, what they were entitled to it. The issue is that we have standards for things that need to
be submitted. So, um, in a couple of the cases, sometimes they submit the copy of their check, but they don't have the invoices that go with it or they submit us the invoices and they don't show us that it was paid. Um, so we require um the contract with the contractor to show exactly what's supposed to be paid. Um,
we require the invoices for that payment and copy of whether it's copy of the check or a copy of their ledger to show that it was paid. um in order to reimburse them based on our mileage rate. Uhhuh. And then we inspect the work. It's work that uh we know has been done.
It's snow plowing. Yeah. Oh, snowplow. Yeah. It's that's Yeah, that's up to the communities to determine if their vendors snowplowed correctly, but yes. Okay. Hear no other comments. We'll move on. Thank you, Jennifer. Resolution 25. Excuse me. If anyone
would like to have any of these separated prior to, let me know before we place them on the on the floor. 25184
approval to submit a grant application and execute a grant contract with the New Jersey Department of Transportation for Canisteria Road phase 2 road improvement. Resolution 25-185,
a resolution uh to increase the bid threshold. Resolution 25-186. Resolution authorizing the cancellation of the outstanding checks over six
months old to municipal cash balances. Resolution 25-187 resolution amending number 25-03 reauthorizing petty cash funds for
calendar year for the calendar year. Resolution 25-188, approving a charitable solicitor's permit, Vernon Emergency Medical Services, Inc. Resolution
25-189, a resolution of the Township of Vernon, County of Sussex, State of New Jersey, approving and authorizing the use of purchasing procedures manual and vendor manual. Resolution 25-190,
a resolution authorizing the issuance of not exceeding 10,000 I'm sorry. 10,788,000 in bond anticipation notes of the township of Vernon County of Sussex, New
Jersey. Vernon, New Jersey. Resolution 25-19, refund overpayment block 233, lot three, QARM-ITH. Resolution 25-192
refund overpayment block uh one lot one re resolution 25-1 193 refund for totally disabled veteran block 164 lot one
resolution 25-194 block 164 4 lot one cancelling checks I'm sorry taxes for total disabled veteran resolution 25-195 resolution for totally disabled veteran
block 537 lot 27 resolution 25-196 block 538 lot 27 cancelling taxes for totally disabled veteran.
Resolution 25-197 refund for totally disabled veteran block 8 lot three. Resolution 25-198 refund overpayment block 321
lot 5 U farm Petroki uh resolution 25-1 170 resolution endorsing 2025 housing element Fair Share Plan
Resolution 25-199 resolution of the intent to bond in the event there is a shortfall in the funding to effectuate certain affordable housing mechanisms in its fourth round
house uh housing and element and fair share plan resolution 5-200, a resolution adopting fourth round
spending plan. And we also have two additional take out of the consent agenda um 251 170, 25 199, and 2520 and vote on them
separately. 25 I'm sorry 25 170 Hold on 25 I'm trying to find 170 page here just on the bottom the third from last
time Yeah. Removing resolutions 25-170 25-19 25-200. Thank you. The uh Can they be voted as a block or each
individual? I kind of want them each individual. Okay, that's fine. I just wasn't sure how it was on the agenda. Thank you. Okay. May I have a motion to introduce the cited resolutions as read with the exclusion
of the three mentioned 25-170 125-19 and 25-200. I make a motion for the consent agenda. Motion made for the consent agenda by Mr. Sparta. Is there a second?
Second. Seconded by Mrs. De Benadetto. Roll call, please. Memberary, yes. Venadto, yes. Council member Higgins, yes. Council member, yes. President Rudo,
yes. Moving on. Resolution 25-170. resolution endorsing the 2025 housing element and fair share plan. May I have a motion to place this on the floor for
consideration? Moved by Mr. Sparta. Is there a second? Second. Second. I'll second it. Second. Seconded by by Mrs. Bucheri. Um, any
questions or comments on this? Yeah, I do have a quick question. So, I didn't get a chance to look at this because it I guess this was the last edition that was at our seat. So, I don't know if the mayor or maybe Tina can answer this.
An obligation of 33 units and then another obligation of 194 units. So, does that mean those are the total amount? So it's it's 195 194 total and uh 33 is
it immediate right? I guess it present need is 33 and the fourth round is 194. So it's it's still 19 194. Yeah. So 194 total. Okay. And that number originally was the 300.
I think it was 301 or something. Any other questions? Not roll call, please. Yes. Yes. Yes. President. Yes.
Resolution 25-199. Resolution of intent to bond in the event there is a shortfall in funding to effectuate certain affordable housing mechanisms in
its fourth round housing element and fair share plan. May I have a motion to place this on the floor for consideration? I'll make that motion. Moved by Mrs. Perry. Is there a second? Second. seconded by Mr. Higgins. Any
discussion on this? Any questions or comments? So, on the surface, it says uh that we're willing to potentially bond monies that we don't know amounts right now if there's a shortfall on the fourth round.
It's like an open-ended commit. Um so, so um on I think it's I don't know what numbers are here, but um it's page 93 in the packet, whatever. there's uh a spending plan that's put forward for the affordable housing trust fund. So they do project out revenues for the
next 10 years. Again, those are projected um and they project out about 1.4 million in revenues plus the existing affordable housing trust fund and then the corresponding exact number is expenditures that they anticipate. So obviously that's a little um depending
on development. It also depends on what the expenditures are for affordable housing. It also depends on development that's coming into town and we've already had a couple of I think applications um for future development in town center where they would be taking care of their own affordable housing needs which doesn't cost our trust fund or or the town money that's a
developer cost. So I think there's a there's a lot of um like there's some projected ideas that are incorporated into this but I think it also doesn't take into consideration units actually being built by developers.
So yes, the township would this is just obviously a resolution to say that we are intending to bond to meet our obligation because we are required to meet our obligation if that's necessary if it's not already met by development in town. Um or we don't have enough revenue streams that come in from
development fees to take care of those obligations. Um or we don't meet some sort of obligation in working with developers um that might come into town and do an all affordable housing project which happens to. Right. What if we didn't guarantee the bond? Well, I mean, there's no bond ordinance.
No, there's no ordinance. So, there's So, this is just It's an open-ended statement here. If you need It's just saying yes. It's on intent, not necessarily action. You You have You still have to You would still have to pass a bond ordinance, which requires four votes. So, so you know, you could
pass this resolution and then never pass a bond ordinance for it. Um there's no This doesn't create debt for you. It just says that the council acknowledges that it could. um at some point pass a bond ordinance and yes the intent would be to pass it if we couldn't meet our
obligation um and what's the time frame if we couldn't meet our obligation uh I don't know the specifics of the whole element and fair share plan this projects out for 10 years um you know I don't I I and I don't I don't
know how many units are going to be built I don't know how you know I don't theoretically they want you fair share want you to build them in 10 years. Gotcha. But most towns don't do that because either they don't have the land or they don't have the developers.
Well, yeah, because we're not building. I mean, we developers have to come here and build. We're not We're not developers. We're municipality. Yeah. Okay. So, we're bonding though. We're not bonding. No, we're not bonding. But saying we would potentially bond, but then what what's that bond? So, we can become
builders. So the theoretically you have an obligation to build these units. So then we could become builders. No, you could be obligated to build them. That's what I'm saying. Yes. And and the way that you build them is as um as the CFO has pointed out that usually a developer will come in. So you
have to give them a fairer um plan so they can provide these units to you in a bigger unit, you know, apartment building and then we would own bonding. Why are we bonding? They So, well, so if if one of
these developers fail or they run into uh issues and miscalculate things, depending on your agreement, you would you would have to pay that cost theoretical, but that's down the that's future. That's what this that's what this means. That it would be the intent to cover the
costs because we do have the obligation to help to build them even though we're not building. I just And I'm not blaming you. I'm just I know this isn't I know this is from Trenton, but I Yeah, the attorney did Ridiculous. The attorney did state um like apartment buildings. It's not just it's not just apartment buildings. They could be anything.
It could be group homes. It could be homes for developmentally disabled. Like there's a there's a lot um that's it's affordable. It's in the affordable housing arena. So I just I just wanted Yeah. And we're always lacking Hey, okay then going to build an apartment. Also, it's not each unit, it's each credit you get. So a group of
I think gives you addit. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So if there was if there was a group home and um it was I think they they even have like assisted living homes. So like if it's an assisted living home, it's based on per bed. Yeah. So like per bed is one credit versus um
you know a one-bedroom apartment is one credit. That's that's two totally like they're the same. It meets the same need obligation. I'm not annoyed at you guys. You guys just have to learn this crazy talk that is coming out of our legisl legislative branch and essentially
and it is it is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially we're not this action doesn't require us to take an action. Yeah. I just it's it's not now it's a resol basically it's a resolution saying that in the future if you haven't met your obligation that
if you have to you would bond so you can meet it. And it's a resolution. And if it fails, you would be you would be taken to court by fair share. Fair to pass this. You never have a choice.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, why do we have to because it's part of the the packet received this from um our attorney Glenn Ke. Okay. Yeah. All right. I don't want to make it's a package. Yeah,
thank you. Uh, resolution 25-200. We got a vote on that. Thank you. May you call the vote, please? Council member Bush, I guess. Council member Dean.
Yes. Council member Higgins. You're saying yes. What did you say? Okay. I'm sorry. Council member Sparta. Yes. Council President Razudo. Yes.
Resolution 25-200. Resolution adopting fourth round spending plan. Motion places on the floor. I'll make that motion. Motion made by Mrs. Pier. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Mrs. De Benadetto. Any
comments on this or questions? If not, may I call for a roll call? Yes. Council member. Yes. Council member Denad. Yes. Council member Higgins. Yes. Council member Sparta. Yes. Council President Razudo. Yes. Motion carries.
Ordinance to introduce number 2510. An ordinance to introduce uh an ordinance establishing chapter 409 parking for gold star families of code
code of township of Vernon. May I have a motion? Moved by Mr. Sparta. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Mr. Higgins. Council member. Yes. Member Getta.
Yes. Council member Higgins. Yes. Council member. Yes. Council president. Yes. Motion carries. Public hearing and adoption of an ordinance. Ordinance 25-09,
bond ordinance appropriating 3,492,500 and authorizing the issuance of 2 million 550,000 in bonds or notes township of the for the township for various
improvements and purposes authorized be undertaken by the township of Vernon in Sussex County of Sussex, New Jersey. We have the motion to place this on the floor. Move. Moved by Mr. Spartis. Is there a second?
Second. Seconded by Mrs. Ben, I'm sorry, by Mrs. What's up? Um any uh have uh anyone wishing to come forward to comment on this? Oh, we need to open the
floor to public office. I'll make that motion. Motion made by Mrs. Bucheri. Second. Seconded by Menardetta. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries. Anyone wishing to come forward and address
this particular issue and only this particular issue, welcome to do so. If not, I'll ask for a motion to close the meeting to the public. Moved. Moved by Mr. Sparta. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Mrs. Cherry. U all in favor
signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. May I have a motion to open this comment? Council
motion made by M. Mr. Sparta. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mrs. Anyone motion to address this? Any comments on this? Yes, I just couple questions. We've over the last year and a half had many
discussions on purchases, bids, whatever we were buying, how we were buying it. During that course of the last year and a half, we always had a official purchasing agent, Mr. Canning. Yeah. Who's named it here? What? And why has that person never been here
to answer some of the questions that many times we didn't know the answers to or question did you have? over the I asked one question I can think of right now about uh was it what uh oh did we purchase or did we lease
the uh new phone system with the uh internet connections and no one knew the answer and then I pointed out to you that you leased it when all of a time you thought you purchased it. That was something that a certified purchasing agent should know and that's just one
that came to mind. There were other questions as well. So, is is this a person that potentially could be here at some of the meetings if there's a large purchase whenever these subjects come up? I gave you a a complete packet on
exactly the how the bidding the thresholds. I gave you a step-by-step guide. He actually put his his own little mindset into it about what to do when when you're going to do a project when you're going to go out to bid
contract thresholds not to do this don't do this because you'll do it. He put all of his that was a great packet that I that I I personally gave it. That wasn't my question. The question was, is it possible that if there's a large purchase and it and it's a
meaningful purchase to the town, could he be here to explain it if he's the certified purchasing agent? Self-explanatory. It wasn't self-explanatory when you thought you were buying something because that was that was a a bit of a mix in in in a in a contract where it wasn't actually labeled as a lease. Um,
but obviously it was all all their equipment. So, it was kind of one of those didn't want to uh misquote anything or or or state anything, but this is not something to want to drag someone in for. I think I think the documentation
again, send your questions in. We'll be more than happy. Uh, a matter of fact, I can you can even email him, too. He's he's extremely responsive. Uh, he'll answer any questions you have. I'm asking a question right now that is nothing to do with him being here. I'm
asking if a large purchase comes up if if something outstanding, a large thing, a big bond. Yeah, we're we're showing $10.7 million worth of bonds that we're responsible for. Those those go through a process. It's not a purchasing process. I get it, but we do purchase
things at times and there may be questions. Is it is it too much to ask if there's a large purchase to We we But we have a CFO. I mean, this is all questions we can ask. again if you want to send emails to him I mean to to direct your answer is no he won't be here
I can't answer for him um mayor isn't he he's not a full employ he's a contract so you he's probably has so many hours a year or what probably 90% of the municipalities I know he does yes
so um so I so the he is he's a specialist in this he's a he's not a full-time employee he's a part-time part time employee. Not even a part-time employee. He's just a contractor who reviews everything. Um so for him to
come here, you'd have to ask him, but it would be probably outside his um contract. I will say thank um all the resolutions that come for count that come before council for all of um all the large purchases, whether it's going over a bid threshold or we're awarding a bid or anything like that, they come from Sean.
So he sends them in. We put certifications of funds on them. We make sure everything's put through. Um, he also reviews all the purchase orders after the resolutions go through for those large purchases to make sure that we have all the backup with him. So Sean's already reviewed everything before it goes to council. It doesn't go
to council without him reviewing it. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm not sure about him being able to come to the meetings. I think that's a discussion that obviously we'd have to ask him, but you know, he's already reviewed everything that's gone to council um for your approval. So
Okay. only other question I have that's outside of that the 10 point can we stay on okay we'll come back to this let's stay on this because I want to move on this um hearing no other
questions can we have a roll call please council member Bushier. Yes. Council member D. Benadetta. Yes. Council member. Yes. Council member Sparta. Yes. Council president. Yes. Motion carries. Thank you.
I propose what was taking place. Mr. Higgins, you have a comment. Yeah. the question to our CFO as a general question. We're showing $10.7 million that we bonded. Correct. Total overall. Are you talking about the resolution you approved tonight?
My8 million question. Million. Do we have outstanding $10.7 million in bonds in notes? In notes. We have um just under 6 million outstanding in notes. Um, we're issuing about another four to five million in notes for prior bonds that we haven't
issued the cash for. Okay. And we have a $32 million budget, right? Correct. Is that a healthy mix as it I'm asking as a financial person, is that a healthy mix? What's the danger? Is there any danger?
Um, we have a debt service schedule that we abide by. Um the township pays more than the minimum um payments and we have a debt schedule longterm that we're going by to make sure that we pay down our notes. Um it lines it's in line with our long-term capital plan to ensure
that we're paying things um off responsibly. What is our debt asset ratio? It's less than 1%. And how much are we how much is the township able to up to 3%. Up to 3%. So we're we're we're we are we're well below.
Yes. Do you approximately know how much we paid off this past year? Uh, I'd have to look at our budget. I'm sorry. I don't have my question. About 25 million. We Oh, no. That we paid off. I'm sorry. No, it's a bit. No. Um, our our debt in
capital was just under just around 5 million. Um, I'd probably say 3.5 in um debt service. Yeah. In paying off bonds, right? And then our notes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Council
comments comments. I'm sorry. Open the meeting to the public. I apolog for anyone wishing to comment on any item for a period. Five minutes. Five minutes.
Seeing no one wishing to come forward, we ask for a motion to close the meeting to the public. Move. Moved by Mr. Sparta. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Mrs. Bucheri. All in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed. Motion comments. Motion passed.
Thank you. Council President, can could I ask uh for council to make a motion to add the uh fee to the next uh agenda meeting? Would someone make a motion? No. No.
No. I'll take care. Any council member? Excuse me. There's some I'll take care of. Thank you. Um, council comments, please, Mr. Spark.
Um, yeah. A few months ago, Mr. King gave me um quite the booklet of I think it was Atlantic City Atlantic City's um merchant merkantile license yeah licenses and uh that was brought about a comment that I made it was
actually funny Miss Rodriguez mentioned about funding alternative revenue streams and this was something I brought up during uh budget time see if we was p uh potential to u add a fee to room nights at uh the hotels in town over and
above the occupancy or the hotel occupancy tax that that we get as well. Um, is that possible that you can share it with other council members so we can have that as a discussion? I'm not going to be at the next meeting, but can we have it on a September agenda? Yes, sir. So, we can discuss that and maybe in the
meantime if we can get some sort of um idea as to how many room nights that uh the hotels in town uh have. So, if it's possible to craft something um for additional revenue to set this stuff up also too, I don't know if that can be um
added on to uh the short-term rentals as well because I know hotel a tax has short-term rentals on it as well, right? I don't know if that's something because that wasn't in I'd have to look at the Yeah, that wasn't in the um the booklet. So, I appreciate uh Miss Rodriguez kind
of jarring my memory on that one because it's been a few months since I I visited that. Um, and I I'll bring it up again. I When can we do something about legends? I have been in contact
with the attorney. He shows nothing to respond to the questions. Um, he's apparently still working on the the appraisal, which is the thing that we have to do anything about. Have to wait. You mean Matt? You've been in contact with Matt, our attorney.
I call he hasn't responded. Mayor, have you spoken with him? I spoken with Charles a few minutes ago. Oh, what did Charles have to say? Charles said he received funding and uh his attorney is contacting our attorney to schedule a uh a payment around $3
million. No, I'm sorry, $200,000, I guess, to show in good faith and then uh pay off the seven.1 by by January. Well, you know, like I said, this is what this is ridiculous. I mean, as far as
I'm concerned, if if he were to come forward, I don't think we should be having that conversation in public if it's a contract contractual issue. The the issue is that if he's going to come forward and provide us with a smaller
amount than was decided on within the um the the uh Sorry, it's my son's bedtime. No problem. It's mine, too. We have to turn that off every for the redevelopment agreement. And I
think, you know, he needs to be made made reaware of that situation. We don't have a redevelopers agreement. No, the the the one that we're working with right now. As far as the appraisal goes, that was ordered because it fell underneath the
threshold. Correct. Um when that was ordered, was there any type of time frame as to how long that would take? Yeah, we had um we did have a meeting with him and he said it would take three months. Three months. And it was ordered when? Um 30 days ago, I think. Mayish.
It was It was May. Yeah, May. May. End of May. End of May, June, July. So, end of August, we should have something from the appraisal. Okay. And then, and I I don't know, maybe Mr. King, this is something that maybe you can answer that Matt could probably answer is once that appraisal's done,
what's our next step towards condemnation? Well, what he once once you have that, it'll give you a number. Mhm. And then that number will come back to the board and then you'll decide on what the next step is. If you want to go forward, you have to make a good faith.
You you make that offer. They don't accept it. There's a certain amount of time and then you can commence a legal action. Okay. Thank you. I think I've stressed more times my frustration with this and I'm I
I just I'm going to bring this up every month. Obviously, next next month they're not going to be here, but in September I'll be bringing it up again. So, if we can have the uh merkantile licenses on there for um additional revenue and legends as well.
Well, I echo your frustration. Sure, Mr. Uh, I just want to say that I'm in full support of this resolution and thank you for bringing it to the council. Just two quick questions. Why? I'm sorry. Uh, the resolution about
getting rid of the carry permit. That's what I was holding. Fe, not getting rid of carry permits, getting rid of the fee. Sorry. Go ahead, Bill. We close the book on the discussion hiring without civil service approvals. I know that we've hired people, five
people this year. The statement was we had to hire them because civil service moves too slowly. So, we hire them and then we get civil service approval after the fact. Seems to be the way we're operating. Is that factual? And second
half of that question is, have we gotten any civil service approve approvals for the people who we've hired? Well, we always get so people apply. We put people in for provisional um and then by time civil service gets around
to it and then we will receive a list of people who who have applied um and then my my right as mayor I can pick between the top three of those candidates and whoever that is. Now if if the the
person that we put in provisional did not make that top three well that's on them right? So then I'd have to pick from that top three. So put someone in provisional because we must maintain government. We must govern through we cannot just stop and wait for civil
service. So of those five hires this year all provisional. What's their status that still provisional or there been some people? Not not all of them. No, not all of them. No, some of them has has are now
some of their jobs have been posted and no other other people applied or didn't come out in some instances. Yes. I I we can't talk about those. I'm not asking about individuals here. I'm just not names. Yes. Just talking about But you don't want to talk about positions either because then
identifiable. Yes. We just be general someone official from getting the list back. So you so one out of five has been made official. The others are still pending. Yeah. You have to wait for civil service to get back with you whether it's a list
or um yeah because it's posted. Sometimes they have like it depends on positions because I you know and a test. Depends on Yeah. Some of them require tests. Some of them don't require tests. Some of them are appointments. Some of them require open competitive, but like it they each title has a different
requirement in civil service, a different classification, different classification code, a different hierarchy. Like they're all different, but we we abide by all civil service guidelines, right? So, one out of five has been finalized. Well, actually, I think there was more than that
without coming out and telling you who they are, but there have been. Yeah. You did you think there were you know I know there was more than one. I I think we're getting the impression here that maybe next meeting give us a
little updated report so I don't have to keep asking the same questions. I I'm sorry but I think that we have literally gone over this time after time after time. You have not answer it tonight. You got some people to respond was the
answer. by all civil service guidelines. Everything administration has done they have posted when civil service requires them to post. When there is an opening that needs to be filled statutoily, I think we had one a couple of months ago. It gets filled. That person's appointed
provisionally, administration handles that appointment provisionally. When civil service gets around to it, they update administration to let them know, okay, here's the posting you need to post as of this date. It will be open for the next 28, 30 days, whatever that is. when it's posted in the township,
people are then they're allowed to apply for it obviously if they qualify for it. Um, depending on what the applications come in, depending on on the job title, they might require that people test. They might just get in their applications and say, "Okay, based on your experience level or your seniority
and whatever, you might just qualify for it." But that's a that takes a long period of time, too. And then administration's notified, here is a list, and then administration can choose who that person is. Sorry, but that's that's like a story you just told
that you read out of a book. I'm ask I sent you the I sent you the emails from the beginning to to the end. I'm asking right now. I'm just asking get us a status update on those people that were hired. Are they in civil service? Are they not? Is their position
still pending? That's all. Every position in this township as far as I'm aware is civil service and guide and under the guidelines of civil service. If we were to provide you with a list of the open or the the
positions that are that were awaiting and would that would that be satisfactory? They'd ought to be raised. Yeah. Well, I mean we could do a an Opra request if you do a confidential a copy of the Oprah request.
Sure. Can Yeah. So So that that would would that does that show what position and and and how it was handled more or less? I I mean Yeah. Okay. I think after Marcy let me know there was an Oprah request. She let everybody
know. I think I I the Oprah request that you're talking about was a while ago. Yes. I got a new Oprah request. Oh, okay. So, yeah. I mean, I'm not just going to supply an Oprah request to everybody, right? When I get one. If you like a copy of
it, I will absolutely give it to you. So, is there any meaningful information in the new Oprah request? As per my question, sir, it just has a job that was posted, one of the jobs that you that was posted on civil service. I guess I guess the question that the
council president is asking, you want a list of the vacant positions. You want to see who was who was I guess appointed provisionally, right? And then what the status is you want to say. Is that something you could just have a
conversation with with the business administrator? Like if you come into the office one day and that would be the easiest way. I I Natalie, I'm doing it here. I don't need you to tell me what I should do. Just like the mayor saying I should permit. I'm asking it right here. You can't do that in public. In public for a name.
You can't do it by position either because it's easily identifiable. It has to be done in close session and it has and all those people have to be raced. That I mean that's just a fact. That's it's it's not that you're hiding anything, but you're talking about positions that can be identified with
people. It's not like you're talking about just the department of DPW. you're talking about individual positions that are in the building that once you mention position X, then there's a name associated with position X. So therefore, it cannot be discussed publicly. It just can't.
So I'm just brainstorming a way to get for you to get your information. The best way want that answer question the administrator or if gives you the visit, provide copies of the postings. You can public information. Yeah. Couldn't we just provide copies of
the postings? Go right ahead. That would be awesome. I mean, that gives you everything. It gives you the position that was posted, date was posted. Yeah. Like, but I I did that with the last one. Where are positions posted? Where on the civil service? On civil service and they have to be
posted in the launch room. Oh, okay. So, literally it's like the employee. Yeah. Certain things that the town has to post. That's they're posted in public newspapers. The Bolton here and on the civil service website, you said. No, not in public newspapers.
No. Well, there's actually a not to have to use public newspapers anymore because to act, you're right. To push it on your website. Yeah. What a way to limit the candidates. No, they're actually saying the argument
is that if you go to public newspapers, you're actually limiting. That's the argument. Nobody has print anymore. Well, a public newspaper could be a digital newspaper as well. They rejected that. a lot of the local um this was just held at the state senate
hearings in the last two or three weeks and our LD24 was was actually in support of not having meeting notices and stuff like that go through print because print is so obsolete anymore that it reaches more
people digitally through your own website and and other avenues than than to do public newspapers and it's a huge expense. It's a huge expense. I believe there's also another requirement that they're trying to push now. Marcy,
so this will start um I believe March of 2026 where we can begin to um post our ads on our websites, our legal ads on our websites. But from um
the tw from December f I'm sorry January 1st to December 31st. Don't hold me to those dates. We have to post in the newspaper two times a month and give them check our website.
Yes website information www.veron township. That just that just was uh so for a year we still have to at least do um 12 uh 24 ads redirecting posts. Yeah, basically.
Okay. And the last question was on the uh the IT discussion that took place. Are we all okay with that? The process procedurebody is abiding by the rules and the laws of the uh the passwords.
Do you want me to talk about executive session minutes? No discussions? No. Okay. So, you posted on Facebook, so it's not public. I mean, it is public. So, all matters have been addressed. Okay. You're going to have that ready for
Y. Thank you, M. Busher. Um, comments. Uh I have no comment either. Thank you. May I have a motion to close the motion?
Motion made by Mrs. Seconded by Mrs. Deandettto. All in favor of saying I opposed. Motion carries. Yes. Closed. We have select still open. We're still We're still
open. She just closed it. Were you done? No, we're not.