Good evening. I call to order this regular meeting of the Verona Township of Council for Monday the 15th of December 2025. Madame Clerk, would you please read the Open Public Meetings Act compliance statement? >> The notice requirements of the Open Public Meetings Act have been satisfied
with respect to this meeting of the township council. The meeting time and date were included in the public meeting notice along with the public internet link and telephone call and information. said notice and meeting agenda was posted in the municipal building and sent to the official newspapers of the township, the Verona City Grove Times
and the Star Ledger at least 48 hours preceding the start time of this meeting. The agenda and handouts can be viewed online at veronj.org/countsil meetings and a public comment period will be held in the order it's listed on the meeting agenda and instructions on how to comment will be provided at the
appropriate time. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Would you call the role, please? >> Councilwoman Holland here. Councilwoman McGrath >> here. >> Councilman Roman >> here. >> Deputy Mayor Makavoy >> present. >> Mayor Tamuro >> here. >> Mayor also presents township attorney Brian Aoya. Township manager Kevin O.
Sullivan. Deputy township manager Michael Krauss. Myself municipal clerk Jennifer Kieran. >> Thank you. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Mr. Cultry, I'm going to call you up first today. >> Good evening, Mayor and Council. The mic is not on. >> Uh, just hold the button. Hold the
>> seconds. >> Let the record reflect that you said good evening. >> They always lie to me. >> I'm trying. I'm usually loud. >> Council Roman, go get them. >> And you're off. >> There we go.
>> Good. Is it up? >> It should be Yeah, it should be green there. But >> should be green. Should be green on the um top of the microphone like this. Just tap on it. Yeah. >> It's a very simple report though. I only
have two. >> Just speak loudly. >> Yeah, that might work. >> So, I think I'm loud enough. Uh, happy holidays to you and council and congratulations to everyone that's here, especially police department since that's my former career. Uh, again, we
have holiday lights at Turtle Zoo. Uh, it's ongoing from tonight until January 3rd. The only days we are closed would be December 24th, December 25th, and January 1st. Um, so the lights are
great, magnificent. um county executive had added more this year. So, please come out and join us, especially the young ladies and families here without a doubt. The other thing is starting I know this is near and dear to your
heart. Uh Hilltop Reservation, we have our deer management program which will start at Hilltop January 8th, then the 15th, the 22nd, the 29th, February 5th, 12th, and 19th. You should be receiving
a postcard in the mail regarding the dates and times and the rain dates. And mayor, have a wonderful holiday season to the council. And any questions, comments? >> Thanks, Mr. Cold. >> Happy holiday back. >> Happy holidays to you and everybody at
the county. >> Thank you very much. Congratulations to all the teams. >> Thank you. >> Just a few short items for the mayor's report. Just wanted to thank everybody for participating in fair in the square. It was a like another record-breaking fair in the square. Um, and especially
to Alisa Northrup who coordinates the event. Our police department, fire department, EMS, public works, buildings and grounds, uh, emergency management, everybody played a role in uh, and having really successful event. And of course, we can't forget Santa Claus for
lighting the tree. Um the road environmental commission met since our last meeting. Uh during the meeting they appointed two junior commissioners, Violet Palmer and Scarlet Morren. They're both Toronto High School students and will be uh doing specific
projects related to environmental work and participating in BC events. So congratulations. They're the third class of junior environmental commissioners. I urge you to take a look at uh the Veron Environmental Commission winter newsletter when that comes out and uh
the council should have received the BEC's annual report uh which was quite detailed and a great example of what our commissions are doing in town. Like to congratulate the Arona Women's Club on another successful share your light night. Um, if you did not drive by town
hall at that time, it was really stunning and uh throughout town, we had a couple couple roads, at least that I saw that were had huge participation and a lot of folks just really sharing uh that neighborhood spirit. And finally, our Hanukkah celebration is tomorrow at
6 o'clock at the Verona Community Center, and I look forward to seeing everybody there. And at this point, I'd like to recognize the um the Verona Suburban Volleyball League
champions from Verona. Um ladies, it's great to see you here. Before we do our certificates, um we talk about a lot of the things that bring Verona together, and I think our athletic programs really do that. And not only do they represent
um athleticism, but also teamwork and positivity and community building. So, I congratulate not you not only on your winning but also um on all the work that you had to do and all the skills that you developed and I'd also congratulate your coaches for really fostering those and being great examples. And I thank um
our community services department, Mrs. Prrisco is in the gallery today for helping to coordinate those programs. We're really lucky to have a beautiful facility right at our Vona community center to host these events. Um, so I'm going to step down and when you call
your name, just come on up and then stay up in the in the gallery. Um, do you want to come down and help me? Sure. Can up to one. Look at this. >> We are learning our new system here. And
now we have a portable microphone. Never give a politician a microphone. >> Okay. All right. We call your name. If you come up, I could shake your hand and the deputy mayor will give you your certificate and
your lovely folder. Number 15, Lucy Caruso. Congratulations. There you go. Make a thing in here. Number two, Olivia Denuzo. Thanks.
Congratulations, Olivia. Number one, Ava Deo. Number 13, Mora Field. Congratulations, Mora. >> Number six, Maria Gabriel. Congratulations, Maria.
Number nine, Gwennneth Getings. Number 12, Hannah. And Hannah, I'm going to let you know. She Hannah's not here. Okay. >> Uh, number seven, Miller Mendes Kimowitz. And Mill, I'm really sorry if I completely butcher your name. Do you
want to say it? >> No, it's >> No, you're good. Okay. All right, number three, Lexi Odell. Congratulations, Lexi. Number eight, Stevie Place. Number 14, Ava Schumacher.
Nope. Number 11, Lily Simon. And number 10, Aubrey Toter. No. Number four, Eleanor Walker. Congratulations.
And number five, Whitney Wilkins. And I'd also like to recognize our coaches, Jennifer Zimmer and JOHN ODELL. ALL RIGHT. NOW, IF WE COULD GET the council down here, we're gonna ask you all to kind of step forward. Now, some of you are going to kind of be as tall
as us. So, why don't we get half you to move a little bit this way and make two rows like I don't know the people that's are in the back of volleyball, stand in the front here. Does that work? >> So, if you're shorter, stand in the front. There you go. Taller in the back. If you scoot over a little bit, I'll get
between you guys >> and we'll get everybody in. There you go. You guys be as tall as Debbie in our M boys. >> You guys ready? I guess just look in the center. Everybody's taking pictures. So, we'll do a few cell phones.
That is an official photograph. >> All right. CONGRATULATIONS. But if you're muted, Feel free to take any of the empty seats, folks. And uh >> um yeah, we need to steal someone else's and swap it out. Just the mic.
>> All right. At this time, I would like to invite Chief Christopher Kieran of the Vona Police Department to come forward. Chief, >> he's not here. >> He wants to make an entrance. >> It's on.
>> There you go. This green light doesn't work on that. >> Yep. >> Good evening. >> Good evening, Chief. >> How are you? >> Good. >> Oh, do you want to do the uh >> Why don't you talk first and then we'll do the >> Sure.
>> Yeah, we'll do the proclamations. >> Sure. >> We didn't have dress rehearsal tonight, so Okay. So, change this up a little bit, but thank you very much for this recognition. Uh, Mayor and Council, Mr.
O'Sullivan, Mr. Krauss, Mr. Loya. Um, it's just so important to recognize what came out of this very unfortunate incident. This horrific incident really put a spotlight and made it very clear that your Verona police officers are
courageous, dedicated, and exceptionally talented bunch. Running towards danger, running into chaos that was being described as multiple shooters at multiple locations and running in to protect lives. restore order and help as many as they could.
Sergeant Aaron Subert, let's take a step forward, Darren. He was a patrol supervisor the night of the incident and rushed into that chaos, provided aid to the victims, and established scene control. Officer Shane Daly, Officer Daly was the first officer on
the scene, provided life-saving aid to the critically injured victim. But I'd like to share this part of the story. Earlier the evening, Officer Daly was out on patrol. Being alert as he always is, he had made a motor vehicle stop on a for a traffic offense that he
observed. Later that night, the driver of that vehicle was involved in this incident. Turned out to be one of our shooters. So, when surveillance video was collected a few hours after the incident, Officer Daily, Officer Daly immediately and positively identified
the individual. Officer Frank O'Neal Off officer O'Neal also ran into the scene and established order, but again earlier in the evening while on routine patrol tending to his own responsibilities,
he happened to be driving adjacent in an adjacent lane on Lakeside Avenue and passed four vehicles of interest that were captured in his incar camera which is also automated license plate reader. Again, when combing through surveillance video of the after the incident, we've
positively identifi positively identified the four vehicles that we observe the suspects leaving in from officer O'Neal's footage. So again, it just shows how these rone officers are out there constantly making observations and the smallest little detail can play
a big part. Dispatcher Sanuli. Dispatcher Sanuli received over 20 incoming calls and made six outgoing calls in the first six minutes of the incident. These calls included, as you can imagine, hysterical victims screaming for help, frightened witnesses, some who originally did not
know their exact location, as well as area businesses who were sheltering in place, asking for the police to come get them. He also directed all resources from the Verona Police Rescue Squad as well as 11 surrounding police agencies who are responding to provide assistance.
Also that night, Lieutenant Robert Giuliano, Sergeant TJ Conroy and Officer Anthony Huber, as well as our PDM dispatcher Edward Conlin. We're very lucky to have Dispatcher Conlin as he's a retired police lieutenant from Cedar Grove. They all responded to a message
for assistance while off duty. They immediately suited up and came in to provide much needed much neededed assistance to the chaotic scene. Detective Lieutenant Timothy Bant led and oversaw all aspects of the investigation and led his team of
Detective Lieutenant Anthony O'Connor, Detective Sergeant Robert Maguire, and Detective Giovanni Doma. This investigation was a herculean task with so many pieces of evidence. Four shooters, four victims, and literally
hundreds of scraps of partial information to follow. Ballistic leads, vehicle leads, photographic and suspect leads, and flushing each and every piece to see what was valid. The team was relentless in chasing down each and every one of them, uncovering every
stone and piecing together a solid case. interviews, deep investigative searches, surveillance details, and old school investigative guile built a strong case. A case that is still continuing to evolve to this day, and information is still being tracked by them. So, what I
can share a little bit about this case, first suspect was positively identified within 5 hours after the shooting. Suspect two and three were identified 13 hours later, and cases against all three were being put together. and affidavit
were being reviewed by our prosecutor's office. Suspect one was arrested within 36 hours of the incident. One day later, suspect two, learning Verona police had an active warrant were knocking on doors looking for him, turned himself in. One
day later, a search warrant is executed on suspect three and a firearm is retrieved. Following day, suspect three is taken into custody near his home. Three suspects arrested within 5 days. Also in those same five days, three
search warrants were executed and an astonishing amount of intelligent intelligence and investigative background was gathered. The work put in by the Verona police officers and detectives humbles me to work among them. They work tirelessly on this incident to make certain that each and every potential lead was followed.
We're thankful for the investment in crime fighting technology that the township administration and council has authorized over the past few years as it played a critical and crucial role in establishing information that led to these arrests. I'm thankful to Chief Mitch Magcguire from Essex County Prosecutor's Office and his homicide
task force that assisted our officers. We're thankful to Essex County Sheriff Amir Jones who called me while still on the scene and offered the sheriff's department's resources. I'm also thankful to police North Police Director Manny Miranda who immediately contacted
me and opened his department's resources and assistance with ballistic analysis on evidence we collected. It was a well orchestrated and coordinated effort by all facets of law enforcement in Essex County. We thank the people of Verona for their patience and support and we
continue to keep those injured and also those affected by this event at the forefront of our thoughts. And we again thank this council for their commitment to Verona's public safety system. >> You chief, we do have a proclamation and I'm going
to read that now and then we'll call up our officers individually. Whereas sworn officers and civilian support staff of the Verona Police Department dedicate their professional lives to securing the township of Verona for the safety of all residents and guests. And whereas Verona police
officers and dispatchers complete extensive training to respond to critical incidents involving active violence and significant threats to public safety. And whereas police professionals are called upon in a moment's notice to neutralize dangerous and complex situations, restore public
order, and preserve life and limb. And whereas on March 15, 2025 at 10:59 p.m., a verbal altercation between two individuals resulting in a violent incident uh resulted in four suspects discharging firearms in municipal lot
one, resulting in four individuals suffering gunshot wounds. And whereas dispatcher Mario Centuli received numerous 911 calls reporting the incident and immediately notified onduty police units resulting in the quick response of Sergeant Aaron Suber, patrol
officer Shane Daly, and patrol officer Frank O'Neal and further requested additional resources from surrounding municipalities. Whereas responding officers aware of the dangers they faced immediately secured the scene and mitigated the threat to the public, saving lives and restoring
order. And whereas the officers quickly employed their first aid training to render critical medical care to those suffering from life-threatening gunshot wounds. And whereas officers secured evidence and conducted timely preliminary investigations that resulted in the
department being able to quickly identify suspects. And whereas the Vona Police Department detective bureau including Detective Lieutenant Timothy Bant, Lieutenant Anthony O' Conor, Detective Robert Magcguire, Detective Giovanni Doma responded the incident and conducted a thorough and distinguished
investigation in the following days that resulted in timely arrest of three suspects. And whereas offduty personnel including Lieutenant Robert Giuliano, Sergeant Thomas Conroy, Officer Anthony Huber, and Dispatcher Edward Conland responded to an urgent request for additional manpower and serve vital
roles in the developing incident. Whereas the conduct of the responding officers, detective bureau reflect the highest standards of professionalism, bravery, and service of the Verona Police Department and the noble calling of law enforcement. Now therefore, beo proclaimed that I,
Dr. Christopher Tambboro, Mayor of the Township of Verona, hereby proclaimed the sincerest appreciation of the township for Sergeant Aaron Suber, Officer Daly, Officer O'Neal, Dispatcher Zantuli, Detective Lieutenant Banana, Lieutenant O' Conor, Sergeant
McGuire, Detective Doma, Lieutenant Giuliano, Sergeant Conroy, Officer Huber, and Dispatcher Conland, and call upon all residents to join me in recognizing them for their extraordinary service to our community. and witness whereof I appear to set my hand and cause the official seal of town and
jersey to be affixed on this 15th day of December in the year 2025. Congratulations Sergeant Super Officer Daly. Harry, you got to stay up here, bud. Officer O'Neal. DISPATCHER SANI,
Detective Lieutenant Bant, Lieutenant Okconor Sergeant McGuire, Detective Doma, Lieutenant Giuliano. You can clap for him anyway. He's a good guy. All right, Sergeant Conroy.
Officer Huber and Dispatcher Conlin. All right. Now, we're gonna have to arrange ourselves. I don't know. Okay. >> Yeah. You'll be in the front. Oh, we have tall.
>> Yeah. On the front. Count on the front. >> Okay. Don't go anywhere because we're done with this. We got to get captain and chief offic. the official picture. >> Hold on. Good smile. Good smile. Good.
Hold on. >> Here we go. >> Here we go. Hold on. >> Okay. Now, rest of the police department here. Come on. Come on. Everybody come in. >> It's not optional. >> They got to kneel in front.
>> I'll go. I'll jump in. I'll jump in. >> Wait. >> Oh boy. >> Here we go. >> I'm here. >> I'm here. >> Yeah. It's not working for us.
>> Ricky will do it. >> Yeah. I may have uh pulled around this once or twice before. >> You guys turn it on. >> There you go. Good job. I'm sorry. No, it's my bad. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much.
>> Thank you. >> I have it somewhere. >> Good. >> What is it? One, two, three. >> I have a mic. There it is. All right. >> We used to have name plates.
>> Where our name plates? That's actually an interesting what? >> Yeah. Where name plates go? >> And he just pointed out we don't have name plates. >> So we didn't have a lesbian meeting either. >> That's funny. Nobody knows. We know who we are at this point. >> You just got to put them on the back of this. >> All right. >> I blame Lenny then. >> All right.
>> Took our name plates home. I uh I was gonna call upon Rescue Squad President Ricky Tambasa, but he seems to have left the room. Correct. >> He thinks he's a hot shot photographer. >> I think the chief did a great job. No one wants to hear a
>> Is this on? There we go. So, first thank you to everyone. I apologize. I didn't prepare a speech. I found out relatively last minute I was speaking but needless to say thank you for the town council town manager assistant town manager and the police department for all their support. We train in day in and day out and
generally speaking a lot of our calls of our lower priority. In this case it obviously was not but you know the call to action came and no one hesitated between both the ambulances we had in service because one was out of service at the time plus an ambulance from Cedar Grove and Montlair the whole area kind of responded in a coordinated effort.
Give a lot of credit to Sergeant Sorry, Subbert. Been on, unfortunately, I'm not going to talk about myself, but I've been on a lot of shootings throughout my career, both working as a nurse and as a medic, and it was probably one of the most well-controlled, best scenes I've ever been on. And at no point did I not feel safe, which is half the battle when
you're trying to care for people. That all being said, it couldn't have been done without the time and hours and train that all the members put in with zero compensation and hundreds and hundreds of hours of trainings and retrainings and drills and everything else. It leads up to an event that takes
like 30 minutes to an hour and there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of training between stop the bleed, incident management, active shooter training, etc. So overall, I just wanted to thank the town council for all their and all their support as well as the membership because you know none of them had to go running into the
fray as it were. All right, we have a proclamation for the rescue squad as well and it reads, "Whereas the Verona rescue squad, an entirely volunteer organization, is sole provider of emergency medical services to all residents and guests of township
of Verona. And whereas run rescue squad members complete thousands of hours of training each year, including drills on common skills and advanced classes on mass casualty incidents, special operations, bleeding control, and response to incidents of mass violence. Whereas in their oath upon joining the organization, members of the Rona Rescue
Squad swear that after their own safety and that of their crew that their first priority shall be the care and welfare of the patients and the communities that they serve. Whereas on March 15th, 2025 at 10:59 p.m., a verbal altercation between two individuals resulted in a
violent incident with four suspects disarging firearms in his whole lot one resulting in four individuals suffering gunshot wounds. Whereas despite acute awareness of the dangers of such an incident, seven of the Verona Rescue Squad's on and off duty volunteer
emergency medical technicians responded to render care to the two injured parties who remained at the scene. And whereas the response was coordinated by Captain Frederick C. Tempesta who assisted police rendering early treatment of a critically injured party and included two ambulances staffed by
EMT Sarah Marriott, Nicholas Polydoro, Jonathan Prior, Jaden Saffris, Christopher Sluck, and Christopher Tambora. And whereas despite challenges, the EMS crews worked quickly to assess and treat patients and both rescue squad ambulances transported the injured parties to the level one trauma center
at University Hospital in Newark. Whereas the incident required the EMTs to utilize their advanced training and extraordinary judgment during complex emergency, demonstrating the utmost professionalism and distinguished skills of the responding volunteers. Now therefore be proclaimed that I, Dr.
Christopher Tambor, mayor of the town of Verona, hereby proclaim the sincerest appreciation of the township for EMTs Marriott, Polydoro, Prior, Saffra, Sluck, and Tempesta, and call upon all residents to join me in recognizing them for their extraordinary service to our
community. A witness whereof, I here on to set my hand and cause the official seal of the town of Corona ina, New Jersey to be affixed on this 15th day of December in the year 2025. CONGRATULATIONS. Before I call the squad members, I just wanted to make a quick note and uh and
Ricky touched on this before. Um most people tend to go in the other direction of gunshots. Um and that evening you had a lot of people uh from EMS and and police um that went in that direction.
And the one reason, you know, as somebody who was involved is you don't go in that way unless you trust wholeheartedly and without reservation the police department and your partners. Um so I thank the Vona Police Department
for really setting the example. um for what a municipal law enforcement agency should be with the training, the professionalism that you always exemplify. Um and I thank the rescue squad for putting in hours to as volunteers uh to try and reach that same
level of professionalism. So, thank you and we'll call you down. Okay. Just going to a few of our folks are not here. All right. EMT Marriott. Sarah Marriott, come on up.
EMT Polyoro is not here tonight, but we can clap for him. EMTT Prior, sorry. BMT Saffris. DMT Sluck I don't see this evening and
DMT Tempesta and we have a big one for the building. Thank you for getting all you guys that way
and get council down. Good for you. >> That was the bangers. Good right here. Here he goes. >> Good job. >> All right. If we can get all the responders for one picture. the police department want to kind of come in
everybody. Good. There we go. >> I love how we take the whole >> Good job. Perfect. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. Thank you guys so much. I feel so fancy now. I got my name. >> I didn't know we had brought them back
either. >> Back to officially being your chair. >> That was a lot. >> I was just sitting here. I assumed it was my chair. >> We are identified. So, yes, >> we are. >> And they're the right place.
>> Looks about right. >> All right. >> Thank you. Good night. All right. >> All right. Mr. O Sullivan, >> how about real quick? Can I have the floor? >> Sure. >> Since we have one extra and you just mentioned yourself in the
>> Oh, >> I did. Thank you. >> Leave the extra one for Dr. Christopher Tambbor. >> I appreciate it. >> Everybody ran before. >> Yeah. Yeah, I was hoping when I wrote the proclamation, nobody would have noticed um that I left myself out, but
thank you, Deputy Mayor. I appreciate it. All right, moving on to the town manager's report. Mr. O Sullivan. >> Thank you, Mayor. Uh given the hour and the length of the agenda, I will forego the majority of my report, but I would
like to request Mr. Classic uh come to the podium, provide an update on the affordable housing uh fourth round affordable housing matter and the current uh status and actions uh before the council tonight.
>> Just by way of introduction, Mr. Plchek is our affordable housing attorney from the Dakotas law firm and has been working with us for quite a while. So, Mr. PLC, >> good evening, mayor, members of the council, members of the public. Um the reason we're here tonight is we've reached uh agreement and principle with
two of the remaining challenggers that will in essence resolve significantly if not all of the uh challenge issues with respect to the housing element and fair share plan for the fourth round as it was adopted by our township planning board and as it was endorsed by this
governing body. As you will recall, we have a prospective need as was set by the court of 155 units for the fourth round, which was the time period of 2025 to 2035. Of this, we had a re realistic development potential calculated of 58
units and that has now increased based upon negotiations with fair share housing center and certain vacant land analysis adjustments to a number of 65 units. And we are satisfying that as a township with your constitutional obligation to provide the opportunity
for affordable housing with the creation of 72 units pursuant to the plan with specific projects within the plan. Included within those projects are in addition DMH2 which is resolved. That'll be a new
project coming on board. ANR Skyline Properties which is the property at 885 Bluefield Avenue. And while this property is vacant land, it's property that was going to be developed at some point and is always able to be developed with a density of approximately 12 units
an acre which would have been 21 or 22 units as of right development. They challenged in the uh pending declaratory judgment action which will ultimately end up in your judgment of compliance and repose and will immunize
the township from any further litigation zone as builder's remedies and attempt to build projects within the township by asserting a claim of being able to provide affordable units by slightly increasing that allowed density to 28 units which will provide
for a 20% credit at the and towards the constitutional obligation to provide affordable housing which is the sixunit credit. So by allowing that 28 units it generates what's necessary and so permitting that additional density which
is something that is not only provided for but promoted by the program and the regulations that's how that will be accomplished. The other property at issue is 251 and a half grove. And while there was a specific challenge filed with respect to a certain project on
that property, what is being done through negotiation with fair share housing center through the program that's provided for by the fair housing act is change in zoning for that property which will allow for family residential units with excuse me a 20%
set aside for affordable units. And that 20% set aside is consistent with another change that will be made to the housing element and fair share plan and then ultimately the ordinance of the municipality is as it stands we currently provide 15%
set aside for rental units 20% set aside for for sale units. That 15% will increase to 20. So it will be a 20% across the board set aside of affordable units for whether a project is proposed with five or more
units of rental project or a for sale project. And that has in large part to do with the fact and this dates back to round two that we are now a vacant land adjustment town because of what is remaining and allowed to be or available
to be developed within municipality. Other changes that were uh considered were changes to the TCMU overlay zone, but that by agreement is going to stay as zoned and in place and that will wait until 2030 to provide five years because
while that was initially a third round uh useful tool to address unmet need and we do have an unmet need which is the difference between your re your um perspective need and your realistic development potential of 90 units.
there's some discrepancy between how we interpret the act and fair share interprets the act. So at some event that number to provide for would be 23 units or greater and that will be provided allowing the TCMU overlay zone to stay as is until 2030 to see if that
does result in the development of any projects which would produce units. and a slight amendment to the town center zone. And included in that is currently that zone provides for a 50/50 split of floor area between residential units and
non-residential. That will be removed that 50/50 split and that will be replaced with a sliding scale density. So the greater the size of the property, the greater uh the development potential, the greater density that would be permitted. And that sums it up
in a nutshell. This is the culmination of work that honestly has been ongoing for, you know, over a year and a half now because the 2024 when the new uh amendments to the act came out with respect to the fourth round of
affordable housing, uh your planners immediately started and I started working on developing how that was going to be applied and researching and your planners especially on this end did a lot of heavy lifting with researching historically and within the town
specific properties because when the state DCA came out with its numbers for perspective projected perspective needs there were properties that were discovered by the planners that were not being treated properly by DCA in its analysis and so that was the initial
initial draw down and through the uh efforts and strong positions taken by this governing body and the assistance of the township planning board we are where we are now with a a final housing element fair share plan that ultimately once adopted as amended will move the
township into the fourth round, govern the fourth round and provide for the fourth round and immunize the township from builder's revenue lawsuits which is the most important and the goal of what you want to achieve as a township. And for tonight, in order to effectuate and
move these forward, I placed two resolutions on the agenda. one being approving and authorizing execution of a settlement agreement with ANR Skyline Properties for their specific project which will then be morphed into the amended housing element fair share plan
with its requirements. And then a second resolution authorizing execution of a settlement agreement with fair share housing center which will encompass these other changes to the housing element and fair share plan that have been discussed. And what that will do is
remove those two as challenges or pending challenges or challengers to the adoption of the housing element and fair share plan and endorsement of that plan as proposed by the court through the program and then the court uh the county uh mount oral judge and removing those
two challenges will ultimately achieve the endorsement of the plan as is to be amended by these settlements by the program judge to the county mount oral judge which would put us then at a final judgment of compliance with the fourth round affordable constitutional
obligation of the township to provide affordable housing units. >> Thank you. Any questions? Mr. PL check I just one Jamie I don't can you get into a little bit what that AD5 settlement looks like?
>> It what what it is is so the under our statutory system is already within an area in need of redevelopment. So, it's been designated as being needed to red be redeveloped. Because of that, the township has certain controls and
opportunities to regulate and take control, so to speak, of the development of that property. So pursuant to that settlement, a redevelopment plan will be developed that will be led by your consulting planners and it will go
through both this governing body and first and then to the the uh planning board ultimately for review and that will govern and allow for the zoning that will permit this unit. So rather than just standard zoning where an
applicant could come in and say I have an as of right application, we have to develop the zoning. So the township maintains control over how that zoning will be developed to control this project that's going to be developed. And the density will be limited to the 28 units. And it will require the set
aside obligations for the affordable units, the four units that have to be uh set aside to allow to provide and help the township satisfy its constitutional obligation to provide affordable housing. And in addition to that, we have what's called the long-term tax
exemption law. And that law in effect when you do a project under the local redevelopment housing law as an area need project and it's also combined with the fact that this project is being used to satisfy because without this project
we you would lose six units towards satisfying your obligation to providing affordable housing. You're able to provide for a tax abatement. So but this again this project will move forward in the normal course. the applicant, the
owner developer will submit an application for that pilot application is called payment of traditional taxes and for that abatement program and abatement doesn't mean they do not pay any tax. What that would mean is that application will be reviewed by your
financial consultants and if it's determined to meet the statutory threshold that requires makes eligible for the abatement, it would be a 30-year tax abatement period. And what that would it would pay percentage of each
with respect to each unit a percentage of funds that would be paid. The land taxes would continue to be paid as is. Land taxes, property taxes do not go away. Those funds continue to be collected by the township and they're divvied up as they always would be. The
township takes its share, the county takes its share, school board takes its share. That those funds are not treated any differently. But then the amount that is paid towards that land tax obligation is treated as a credit against the ultimate amount that's calculated to be to be the pilot
obligation, the abatement obligation. And then that delta, the amount over and above that land tax, 95% of that goes to the township and 5% goes to the county. And again, this is all by statute. It's not something that we created. It's not something the township created. These
are all uh state provided programs and in large part because of the recognition that when a project is providing units to satisfy a township's affordable housing obligation, those units are not going to generate the same level of
revenue. So when a a developer or project or property owner presents their bottom line, say to a a financeier to a lender, a lender is going to look at that and those units are going to impact that. lender will likely not fund a project because it requires the same
level of revenue across the board for all the units to generate the revenue that satisfies a lender's level of risk as to a project. What this does is under the long-term tax exemption law with a pilot payment arrangement, a financial
agreement providing for that you know with stability what your obligations are going to be. Whereas traditionally a sex tax assessed tax, you could go up and up and up and not necessarily understand or know the same level of control. For instance, you couldn't predict the same
level of property tax on a property today as in 10 years from today, but you you under a pilot agreement under the long-term tax. get a state statutory law that was created by the state and enforced allowable for the municipalities to utilize, you would be
able to tell today in year 10 as a percentage what what kind of risk obligation you're looking at which satisfies lenders and helps keep the market uh marketability and the saleability of the project to be developed to be able to be offered. So
those 24 unit offerings or the market units is what's able to generate the six credit satisfaction for the municipality, the township. >> And could you give a public the public an idea of um where the unit number started and
where it ended? And we know where it ended, but if you can just say kind of where it started. The first iteration of this project was a 60-unit project which was negotiated down ultimately to a 38 unit number was being proposed and ultimately uh through the efforts of
this governing body that stayed strong on a number we ended up at the 28 unit number for that site >> and um so it's less than half of the original >> the original yes >> and how many bedrooms will each
>> there will be two-bedroom unit town homes. There'll be no threebedroom unit. Only two-bedroom plus den would be the largest unit. >> Okay. Right. And what is your opinion on if the township were not to enter into this agreement, what would happen with that
property? Based upon our presentations and discussions and negotiations within the program and input from both the program judge and the special adjudicator, um I am confident that we would be looking at that 38 unit number or greater. >> So they would develop it without our
>> without >> correct >> and and the township would also lose some level of control via the redevelopment process as well. And the the concept plan as it appears now is effectively to extend the townhouse
um architecture development in Essex FS look it will be an extension of that while not factually legally um you know essentially that's where it's going and and I just caution that when looking at
the uh concept plan people should not look at that concept plan as this is the project that you landscaping and those types of things. Uh what the owner developer tried to do was be as put as much in there as possible at this stage of the game. But what's important is
they're bound by the unit uh number which is 28, the bedroom distribution and the square footage for each unit that's provided for within that plan. Those are real the the important numbers. Some of the the other issues may change as design goes forward. Um
the township may see uh certain aspects or angles as beneficial changes and other changes may be brought forward but those numbers are what's important and what will stay >> and the design and all of that still has to go through the planning board. >> Correct. >> This this body first then the planning
board >> question for the public edification the council had an hourong meeting prior to this meeting with Mr. PLC. So if we're not asking questions, it's because we asked them extensively in the meeting prior.
Okay. Thank you, Mr. P. Thank you. Um the manager has requested two resolutions be addressed. Now um at this point I will hear I'm going to open actually for public comment on both of the resolutions E1
and E2. E1 is the authorization of the execution of the agreement with Skyland Properties and E2 is the memorandum of understanding between the township and fair share housing center. Um I'm sorry before you go
the madam clerk just has to read the uh the statement. Anyone from the public wishing to speak on this matter, please raise your hand by pressing the raise hand button on your monitor. If you're dialing in by phone, press star 9. If you're attending in person, please raise your hand before
approaching the lectturn. Once everyone rec once you are recognized, clearly state only your name and township of residence for the record. You are not required to provide your street address. However, if you do, please note that these meetings will be posted on the township's YouTube channel and addresses
will not be redacted for any purpose. You'll have four minutes to address the council and there'll be no cross dialogue during this public portion. After everyone wishing to speak has been heard, the council may address your comments and or questions. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Mr. Gri,
>> do I have to press any buttons? No. No. No. It's >> on. Yep. Good evening, mayor and members of the council. Oh, uh, Michelle Breuer, Verona resident. I am a Verona resident speaking tonight about the resolution
authorizing an agreement with ANR Skyline Properties regarding 885 Bloomfield Avenue, block 2205, lot 6. I want to be clear, this is not opposition to affordable housing. Verona has obligations and residents understand
that. My concern is about consistency, scale, and whether the township is being asked to abandon its own planning assumptions under the pressure of litigation. This parcel is located in the A-3 residential townhouse zone where town
houses are a conditional use and the maximum permitted density is 12 units per acre. at 1.77 acres. That translates to roughly 21 units before considering site constraints. In Verona's fourth round housing element
and fair share plan, the township included this property in its vacant land analysis, but not at maximum density. The plan assumed 10 units per acre, resulting in a realistic development potential of about 17 to 18
units. that reduced density was used to demonstrate compliance with the state's affordable housing requirements. That distinction matters because the property owner ANR Skyline is now proposing and perhaps this is now
different but at when I knew the information this is what I had is now proposing a minimum of 60 units on this site or roughly 34 units per acre. That is nearly three times the density used by the township in its own affordable
housing plan and far beyond what zoning allows without substantial variances. I guess I'll just mention that if if there is some sort of potential agreement at 28 units, that is still more than twice um the units um per acre
that the township has in its affordable housing plan for this zoned area. So this creates a basic contradiction. If the site was suitable for 34 units per acre, then it should not have been counted at 10 units per acre in the vacant land analysis submitted to the
state. And if the township's analysis was correct, which accounted for steep slopes, storm water, and site limitations, then approving an agreement that contemplates triple that density or double that density undermines the
integrity of the fair share plan itself. This partial This parcel is also subject to Verona's steep slope ordinance adopted to prevent overdevelopment on environmentally constrained land. Those protections were implicitly recognized
in the vacant land analysis, but are largely absent from the developer legal position. Tonight's resolution does not approve a site plan, but it does signal whether Verona will stand by its planning framework or retreat from it under
pressure. I urge the council to proceed with caution. Any agreement should be fully consistent with existing zoning limits, the density assumptions used in the vacant land analysis and the environmental protections codified in
local ordinance. Finally, I respectfully urge the council to consider an alternative path seriously exploring the purchase of this property for open space within the abilities of the open space trust and related funding tools. Preserving this
land would would protect a constrained site, honor community concerns, and remove a flash point from future litigation, allowing affordable housing efforts to focus on sites better suited for development. Affordable housing compliance should not
come at the expense of sound planning or common sense. Thank you for your time and for your service to the community. >> Thank you. Anybody else? Good evening. Uh Kathleen, I also live in uh Verona. Um more or less a question
or two questions for the for the uh the council is if there were another site fulfilling the fair house requirement, would Skyline be able to build at that density? And by that I mean something like the quote unquote public parking
lot that has been purchased that is not being developed but is vacant and could be used. And number two, has the council looked at pursuing um joining neighboring towns fighting against the fair housing um requirements?
So those are my questions for the council. >> Thank you. Anybody else? Okay. And close public comment at this point. I uh I'll ask the well, I'll just go a couple things on
Miss Gray. Um I think it should be clear that no member of the council at least is I mean I'll let everybody speak for themselves, but I certainly don't want a building um at this site. However, there were town houses at the site. Um, however, the as
our attorneys have advised us at length and our planners, the developers of this property would have a constitutional argument um through the affordable housing laws and case law that have existed that if we did if we denied or
did not come into this agreement that they would actually build more units than we've negotiated them down to. Um, and that's one of those difficult things that we have to face. And as a council, we had been working on this for hours and hours and hours in close session and
and going on quite a bit of time. Um, so I think it's important that to note that at this point the while obviously we'd like, you know, fewer units, the development as it's proposed is one
that would presumably have the least impact of what we could get. So the maximum bedrooms in the the town houses are two bedrooms in the non-affordable housing townouses. These are not rental properties. their for sale properties as
well. Uh which is which is helpful to us and and adds to uh the township as well. We're not building an apartment building that brings its own issues. Um we are, you know, putting the having the townhouse type things in there that the
developer has proposed. Um adds to the continues the aesthetic that um exists on Bluefoot Avenue in that place. Anyway, um and I can tell you that this is not the only property that has to be included in our plan in order for the
plan not to face a constitutional obligation. So, going to Miss Nit's point as well, there is another property that um there's a follow-up meeting on Monday, correct? To Monday. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Um to discuss as well between our
professionals and the developer of that property. um which also has to go in this plan. So this is not the only property being considered. There are multiple in Verona um and these and we basically included every property in this plan where developer indicate a
desire to um to develop, right? So we're if we include something in the plan where you have not had a somebody put forth that they want to actually build a building somewhere, then you get challenged in a couple years. this plan
just doesn't go away uh at this point, right? So, we could see a challenge in five years if what we put forward um as our plan does not actually pan out and we could face builder remedy lawsuits at that point. So, this isn't just
something that we can that we dispose of by saying, "Okay, we'll throw another property in here." if that development doesn't occur, we still have an obligation constitutionally to provide the affordable housing. So, um the township is between a rock and a hard
place and when you talk through this affordable housing piece, unfortunately, we are at the whim of our court system. You have the fair share housing center that um has, you know, adjudicates these cases as well. And then you have the
developers. Um, and I think our professionals and our manager and the council um, through discussions have come up with probably about the the best case scenario that we can get at this point. Um, as far as this development is
half of what the developer originally asked for um, and certainly at even 10 units less um, than Mr. Plchek has analyzed that they could build if we didn't cooperate with them. So we're even going beyond that. So I would say
that I share everybody's frustration on this, but at the same point, we're constrained by the state statute um that once again don't agree with and um and constitutional interpretations related to the right to affordable housing in the state of New Jersey that have been
interpreted in such a manner as to require the township to take these extraordinary measures in order to meet our obligations. Um so as far as um Miss Mitti you asked about why we're not we're not fighting the affordable
housing. Um one of the our ability to negotiate in many ways has um with fair share housing center uh relies on our being very focused on meeting the
perceived obligation. Um and you know we have developed a productive I think would be a fair word um Mr. Sullivan uh relationship uh through these negotiations. Further the fact that we're not specifically naming ourselves
in a lawsuit doesn't mean the lawsuit isn't going to still go forward. So um if for some reason and I I doubt this would happen but the state supreme court said well you know all that constitutional history we have the affordable housing is no longer valid. uh we would still get the benefit of of
that down the line. Um but at the same point, there's a pretty ingrained um history and law right now in the in the state of New Jersey. So, um, while I agree that it's not often really to build highdensity housing anywhere or
density housing that is density more than our traditional zoning, um, we are put in the position where state doesn't care and we have to do whatever we can to mitigate the effects of our obligations under the state law and that
are imposed by the courts. So, uh, those those are just my thoughts. Um any other council members have I think they have Councilwoman Holland. >> Thank you. Um thank you both for your comments. I know that um that you know it takes a
lot of courage to stand up. Um I do think that there's agreement with some of the statements that the mayor just said and then I think there's different points of view um that may be represented by others on this council. There's absolutely an affordable housing
obligation in this state. It is a constitutional mandate. It exists to eliminate economic discrimination and it's been on the books for approximately 45 years or more. That case law is is expansive. There was
um action taken in an earlier round to designate this particular property, the 885 Bloomfield Avenue property to be more specific, um as an area in need of redevelopment that was done prior to my time on the council that was referenced in the recommendation presentation that
was given earlier today. Uh there was recent legislation to try and you know mitigate some of the more difficult aspects of planning for affordable housing and we've gone through that process. It gave an opportunity for the municipality to take a strategic
approach to it. There was not unonymity on this council about the plan that went forward. Um so I do think that's important to know. I do think that given any challenging situation um the governing body decision makers in
general have the opportunity to evaluate the tools at their disposal and there's discretion used in selecting that tool. So while there's a lot of rhetoric around this is the only answer. This is what we have to do, I think that there have been a series of decisions that
have led to this point and I don't know if there's always alignment on those decisions, but choices have been made and we are presented with this recommendation tonight. So I do want to thank you for your for speaking out. I want to encourage you to remain engaged
in this process um because this is not the end of the story. Thank you. Okay. Uh, Councilman Roman. >> Thank you. Also, just um a couple of comments. Um, we spend probably more time on affordable housing here as a council than almost any other issue that
we face here other than maybe municipal finance in general. Um, we all live here, most of us have lived here for a very, very long time. Um, we look at open space and properties that have historically been undeveloped and we do everything we possibly can to keep
Verona having the same look and feel as we are used to. Um, we are challenged by, you know, we are obligated to comply with the state regulations and and the constitutional obligation to provide for affordable housing. Within that process, we do everything we possibly can to best
represent the interests of Verona residents. Um we negotiate down we do extensive analysis and we do the best that we can to negotiate the overall obligation um to try and reduce the total unit count as best as we can um as a starting
point. We look at individual properties. We try and figure out um whether or not development on them is realistically possible. Uh we talk with the proposed developers and we try and get the unit counts down. Uh we try and get the buildings away from other residential
uses. Uh we try and set good redevelopment standards to only have quality projects in the community. Um we don't have the ability to to flat out say no to a lot of things. Um we you know we recognize that. Um so what we do
is we try and mitigate impact to the best ability that we possibly can. In the case of the 885 uh project, obviously there was a very substantial reduction in unit count, but this is a developer that proposed to build a building and said they are ready, willing, and able to supply to meet a
portion of the township's affordable housing obligation on this site. Um therefore, if we were to attempt to exclude them or to move in a different direction, that could be very very challenging. Um obviously, like I said, the unit count is substantially reduced. We are currently at a a concept plan.
This still has quite a bit of review um to go through in the community uh before this arrives at a final constructable project. Uh there are obligations the developer has to meet various ordinance of the township and this process is uh not quite beginning, not quite in the
middle but uh you know it's it's it's in an early stage still um aside from B the actual settlement agreement uh defines only a few terms. It defines things like unit count. It defines the distribution of bedrooms throughout the units type of project etc. There will be a uh tax
exemption agreement but other than that a lot of that is um left to future discussions. So I would encourage you to please continue to be involved. Um, we have to make a lot of very challenging decisions up here and uh, it's a lot of time we have to look people in the face
who this is going to affect and I can tell you that we do the very best we can to represent your interests to minimize the impact to your properties. Uh, but we also really really do not want to put this down in the position of being uh, subject to builder's remedy lawsuits. If
we are then things that we definitively do not want built will get built and we will lose a lot of voice in the process. Um that's the situation we don't want to find ourselves in. So it's through this process of negotiation and working with our professionals that we try and make
these as palatable as we possibly can. Um and you know again we we never we don't we know that this affects people. You know we don't like having to say yes to these things. um this is the situation that we're in. So, I do thank you for coming to see us and uh we're doing the best we possibly can. I would
encourage you to uh continue to remain involved uh as we get to a final point with this project. Thank you, >> Deputy. Thank you, Mayor. And and not to prolong this and repeat some things that others said, but uh we we have on this council spent a lot of time preserving
land. Uh and we do our best to do that. uh this piece of property in general being right on Bloomfield Avenue was one that you know we we take the advice of our experts and it would have been difficult for us to uh purchase this
property uh because they are an intervenor so so that's one thing we looked at but I will say honestly thank you for your your your comments tonight and keep going because this isn't the end of it they still have to go before planning and they still have to abide by
our current uh ordinances and rules and regulations. So if they can get through that, that's a hurdle they got to get through next. And if they can't abide follow our ordinances, then we take another step after that.
>> That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, this point is time to uh take action on the resolutions. I hear a motion on resolution E1. So moved. >> Motion's made by council Roman. Is there
a second? >> I'll second it. >> Second made by the deputy mayor. Council discussion. >> Deputy mayor. >> Things have already been said. Uh this is a difficult one. Uh it's not something we want to do. It's more of
the threat that we're worried about. And uh when we looked at it and negotiated it down, 60 units was what they wanted. Uh 28 is what we're what they're proposing now. So it's it's a difficult one, but uh I I it's tough to say no to
this and have 60 units pop up on a property. So that's the conclusion for me. >> Deputy Mayor, >> sorry, Councilman. Um, and I'll just say, you know, these sort of small to midsize sites, I would say, are the very very challenging ones to deal with. Um,
we recognize that they are constrained sites. The developer has a substantial engineering burden to meet to um to make this realistically developable. Um, we'll see how this goes through through the process. Um, I am, you know, it's
certainly not 60 units. 28 is still a pretty substantial number. Would I like to see this down at 21? Yes, but this is the negotiated result of um we said we set some pretty we've been pretty tough with our professionals. They've been up here before us a multitude of times. We've said no to a lot of things. We've
sent them back for negotiations over and over and over again. Um this is where we ended up. Uh like I said, we're early on in the process. Uh we'll see where the engineering comes back, but uh where we are now, it's about the best I think we can get at this stage on this on this
particular parcel. Yep. I uh I have to agree with that at this point. I would also point out that you know this comment made by Councilman Holland about the affordable housing plan um that came before the council not being uh unanimous and I did want to
address that. First of all, it was unanimously approved by the planning board um after consideration there. It was a surprise to me at that point when there were only three votes on the affordable housing plan. What happened? because the two no votes in Councilman
Holland and Councilman McGrath never provided any other meaningful opportunity or option for the affordable housing plan or suggested any other um workable way that our planners could conceive um that could actually be
different. So I I would be careful in the public believing that there was some kind of other better option that was out. Um, and I think it took courage for my council colleagues who did vote in favor of the affordable housing plan and would vote in favor of this this
evening. Um, because there was nothing there's really nothing else that was provided that was workable and would have met our constitutional obligations. Um, so the plan that was put forth um, everybody was in the room when it was being discussed. Uh, there were no
decisions made on the side. our planners have record of everything that happened and everything that they investigated. Um, and there were no other options put forward. So, I just want to point out that as I make uh as I cast my vote today, which um which I will, it's not
to perpetuate a um you know, bad affordable housing plan. especially the best affordable housing plan that we could make and the only one that helped fulfill our constitutional obligations and prevented us from building a remedy lawsuit which would have devastated this township. So, I think a a vote in favor
of the affordable housing plan then and and a vote in favor of this development tonight um is the best thing for the township of Arona um and is the the courageous thing for the township of Verona at this point. So, Council Mon,
>> I would just like to respond that there is clearly a difference of opinion as to what substantive input was stated in executive session and further disclosure to refute statements like the one you just made would then ultimately
wave attorney client privilege or otherwise reveal confidential information. And that's just not appropriate to do. So, I do just want to state on the record that I am not agreeing with council with Councilman uh Tambboro's statement um that that there
was no substantive input provided. All of this was done in executive session and unfortunately the public doesn't have that awareness. As a result, as a lesson learned going forward, I've made a point of stating these things on the record as I did this evening. Thank you.
I would be uh I mean you don't want to mention right now any other ideas that you had >> council >> for the strategic plan >> for the for any other you know sites that would have met our constitutional obligation that >> I'm not going to go into the potential of waving attorney client privilege or
revealing confidential information >> it's nothing is confidential if it's something that you brought up if our our specialists brought it up then it's confidential if our attorneys brought it up but it's an idea that you had refuse to engage in this any further. Thank you.
>> Like that. >> I'll call for the vote. Madame clerk. >> I'm sorry. >> Councilwoman Holland, >> no. Councilwoman McGrath, >> no. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes.
>> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> it would be dangerous to vote no on this. I will say yes. Uh, I will qualify my vote as well. I think Council McGrath and Councilwoman Holland have put this council in a very difficult decision, a very difficult
position. And if I do not vote yes on this, we will open ourselves up to builder's remedy lawsuits that will devastate this township. Um, so for that reason and that reason only, um, and any other explanation provided to you is completely disingenuous.
Um and I hope that >> um the public will see through that. So yes, >> ordinance I mean resolution E1 will be numbered 2025-23. It passes 3 to2. >> Thank you madam clerk. Would somebody
move resolution E2? So moved. >> I'll second it. Any council discussion? Councilman Holland. I would just like to note that there was statements made during the recent election about
civility and there were also statements made about unonymity and the need for representing different opinions on this council. And here we have an example of a disagreement among council members. And where that disagreement is not
presented in a way that's favorable to yourself, Mr. Mayor, you have chosen to make allegations against your colleagues and calling them disingenuous and I think that is completely univilized and unprofessional to be done on this day.
We can have differing opinions and we can vote accordingly without being insulted. Thank you. >> I think what is I think having a disagreement is what we just had. I think the public has a right to know that votes are being cast in a
manner without the individuals who are voting no ever having provided any substantive different plan to put this township in. >> That is your opinion. >> I'm sorry. You are not recognized. >> That is your opinion. >> Is not my opinion. That is the fact and
it's on the record. And when the affordable housing plan is done, the minutes of the uh executive session will be available to the public and the public will be able to note what was said and what was not said. So I think the I I hope the public will look
through those records when they become available um on any deliberations related to these items and they will see that there was no substantive feedback put out there. And I'm sorry for it that
it's inconvenient that I have brought up >> I didn't say >> that this is the case. But I also think that this having disagreement is not univil and calling for truth is not univil and trying to assail another
council member for stating the truth and for trying to put the the council and the town in a better position is for conduct. So on that note, Madame Clerk, would you call the role, please? >> Sorry. >> Councilwoman Holland, >> no.
>> Councilwoman McGrath, >> no. >> Councilman Roman, >> with the same qualifiers that were stated by my colleagues in the last round of votes, yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy. Once again, if I vote no on this, we're
this town is in a very dangerous position and there's plenty of other properties that can get developed and join in. So, I will vote yes on this. >> Yes, >> Mayor Tambour. >> Yes, >> Mayor. Um, E2 will be numbered ordinance
number two 2025 284 passes 3 to two. very briefly. Um, thank you to our uh, professionals for all of their work on this project, all the late nights and all the negotiations on behalf of the township. U, your efforts are truly appreciated. >> Thank you.
>> I'll second that. Thank you. >> All those in favor. >> All right, it's time for council member reports. Deputy Mayor Makavoy. >> Okay. Uh, first I would like to thank the girls volleyball team for an undefeated
season. Uh congratulations on their achievement and for our uh police and rescue squad. Uh I know that night was a very difficult night for them. Uh they all took off so we didn't have an opportunity to say this while they were here. But uh I think Verona I would love
to see response times of Verona compared to other towns. Uh I I we're probably in one of the top five towns in the state of New Jersey uh as far as police, fire, and rescue. So I thank them for keeping us safe uh especially after the horrific
events that went on yesterday uh and even into early morning today. Uh I thank them for their service and what they do to keep the Verona residents safe. Uh many thank yous to a lot of people for a
successful fair in the square. Uh everybody the public works and buildings and grounds uh seeing them during the week. Uh very very cold out there all week long uh or at least the end of the week setting up. So I thank them for all
they did. Uh, and I'll forget people, but uh, again, police and rescue for being there helping us out. And, uh, El putting it together and organizing it. And for all of the, uh, people who had
tables there, all the vendors, I thank them for their time. I hope they all did well. And, uh, that for me, it's become the official start of the holiday season. So, uh, with that, I will say happy holidays to everybody and I hope
they have a safe and happy holiday. That's all. >> Thank you, Deputy Mayor Council. >> Since my comments are very will be repetitive, I will just be very, very brief and also congratulate the girls volleyball team. um to thank the police
department and rescue squad for their service and also to congratulate all involved on the production of Fairland Square and uh wish everyone a very happy holiday season. >> Thank you, Councilwoman McGrath. >> Thank you, Mayor.
Oh, I turned it off. >> Oh, turned it back on. Don't touch it. Okay. Um I just want to thank Councilwoman uh Cynthia Holland for her comments. I'm I cannot believe what I just witnessed. Um I wanted to start with actually recognizing uh the memory
of Jim Cunningham. Um I actually was a little surprised we didn't start with a moment of silence to him. Um he did pass away um recently and I had a chance to pay my respects to his family. uh he was really such a key employee in Verona for
so many years, the face of recreation and community services and it's just really a shock that uh so soon after his retirement uh that he should pass away. So I extend my deepest consult condolences to his family. Um
it it really puts a lot of things in perspective. um when someone passes away that soon. Uh my thoughts are also just on world events. Um I actually uh wore my gun violence prevention pin today. Uh
just with the nature of this very grim weekend. Um but um I do want to focus on you know the volunteerism in our community. I thought today's presentation for our first responders was really so moving and so touching. I
really thank them for their service to our community and I think about their safety all the time. And when people from other towns ask me about um you know what is it like being on the council, I said one of the most amazing things is our police department and our
first responders. I don't need to go to bed worrying about um whether or not that is a function that helps or hurts our township. We know that we have the most incredible police department and is such an asset to our community and so
appreciative of all the leadership of that department as well. I want to thank the multicultural inclusion and accessibility advisory committee for helping with fair in this square specifically um the special event that we have for uh children um that have
neurode diverse needs. Um, so they get private time with Santa that actually happens before fair in the square starts and it was a great tradition that we started recently and the families appreciate it so much. Um, and such a great thing that we do. I want to thank
the Shade Tree Commission. They've been working really hard. They had a recent meeting. uh they uh were discussing with our vendor the streetscapes and then they were also talking about plans for the civic center and they were part of the Lynden pre-construction meeting. Um
and um I think that's my report. Happy holidays everyone. Thank you. >> Thank you Councilwoman Holland. >> Thank you. Um I won't repeat some of the statements of my colleagues but I will just take a moment to speak about affordability as I do um this time of
year. I just want to remind all residents of the winter termination program. So if you are struggling, um it is important to avail yourself of this protection so that you know you will not be shut off during these incredibly cold
times. Um the way to apply is through your utility and to continue making good faith payments. But again, there is no shut off um until March 15th. So, um, please make sure that if you are struggling this holiday season, you avail yourself of that program and make
sure that you keep your family warm. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> One thing I forgot, traditionally the last meeting of the year, uh, I always mention uh, all of our staff um, and all the professionals and everyone that serves us here in Verona as well as all of our volunteers around the holidays.
Um, our town is basically open 247. So, everybody, you know, we have people that are working all the time. And I just wanted to recognize that we, you know, it's a pleasure to work with an outstanding team here in Verona and all of my council colleagues, everyone that we work with. And I just, uh, wanted to recognize them and the service that
they, uh, provide to the township of Verona and all of its residents, particularly, you know, when other people have the days off, uh, they may not. So, just wanted to say thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. We are moving on to the consent agenda. I'm sorry. hearing adoption or amendment of ordinances.
But before that, we'll have a public comment session on anything any member of the public would like to discuss. >> Same, >> Mr. Shore. Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Mayor, uh town council, uh before I get into the
uh pool stuff, just wanted to add a couple uh things prior to so I don't have to put it in there. I just want to say uh tomorrow night that we have a recreational meeting uh at 7:30 in the uh community center. Uh we welcome uh everybody to attend. We have uh some
good things that we're going to discuss in our final meeting of the year. So always welcome uh that of the public. Uh I want to thank uh DPW as per usual. Um I've lived here for eight years and every single uh year and every single snowstorm um they do a great job on the
roads and that's I I definitely appreciate that for the last uh eight years. I want to thank the uh police department and rescue squad uh the earlier presentation I saw. Um I joined the rec committee a couple
months before um Jim Cunningham um uh left the department. So, um I served with him. Um always and I was definitely going to make a tribute tomorrow night at the committee. Um he was um a very passionate man, loved the pool, was very
concerned about everybody's safety, uh baseball trip, so forth and so on. So, uh I give um many condolences to his friends and family and I've wished a lot of the rec department uh my condolences because they uh lost a true friend. Um,
I want to thank the multicultural um, uh, committee as well. Um, my my son was one of the kids that was uh, that visited Santa um, at about 10:00 a.m. uh, 10:30 and he's done it for the last 3 years and it's really just been
absolutely fantastic. It was my younger son as well. And um, I have other comments as well later in the evening, but I just wanted to wish everybody uh, happy holidays and thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Shore. Kevin Ryan, >> sorry. >> Hello. Can you hear me now?
>> Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Ron. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, still uh a little bit technologically challenged here. A couple of quick points. uh your plan may have gone over this, but I just wanted a clarification as to the status of the uh
the former uh Spectrum 360 project that was in earlier uh round of our affordable housing obligation. If you could provide an update on that, uh I'd appreciate it. Also, in light of the horrible events that have happened uh
you know Australia, I know we have a uh event planned tomorrow night in the community center uh to recognize uh uh the uh for the Hanukkah celebration. I'd like to know if there's been any extra uh efforts uh uh taken to make sure that
the event is safe and secure. And uh third thing is just to comment uh on the affordable housing situation and lawsuits. Uh to the best of my ability uh or acknowledge at any time these these towns have banded together and and
file lawsuits against the whole concept and everything else uh they are consistently shot down by the uh uh the state uh appeals courts or the Supreme Court. And I just want the public to be aware of that. Uh it is a very contentious
situation. Uh and uh I I just hope that uh you know that we can get through this with a you know with a as as less acrimony as possible. And I'd like to wish you all a uh happy holiday season.
And also I would like to extend my condolences to uh to Jim Cunningham's family. I had the pleasure of working with Jim uh for the 10 years that I was on the council. He was always accessible, always a a a great gentleman. And uh it it's a real tragedy
that he never got a chance to uh enjoy his retirement. But uh uh the outpouring of uh of accolades for him has been wonderful and uh uh I thank you for the opportunity to comment.
>> Thank you, Strian. close public comment. I just did want to note uh one thing and obviously I share everybody's um condolences for the family of Mr. Cunningham. Um some of Mr. Cunningham's friends and family reached out um as far
as a recognition on behalf of the township and I've been communicating with the township manager about possibilities um for some kind of lasting recognition and there'll be some options put forth to the council as far as that. Uh I just
did want to update everybody on that and I thank the all of Jim's friends for reaching out and uh bringing that point up and I will heartily agree that we should recognize him and I thank Mr. O' Sullivan for bouncing back um the ideas
as we've move forward. Um moving on to our want to respond to Mr. Oh, sorry. Uh, >> Spectrum and Police Kevin, on the on the Spectrum uh project, there had been a delay
because of the the permit required. Go ahead, Mr. Sullivan. >> Sure. Sure, Mayor. Thank you. The uh the property owner or the developer for the Spectrum site was delayed uh while they were pursuing a water extension permit
from the NJT that did uh come in from the state. Uh it was either late August or early September. Uh the the sale of the property was completed to the actual developer uh earlier this fall and the
site is um is submitting or will be submitting shortly final construction permits based on the approved site plans that they have. So construction would not be anticipated probably until the conclusion of the current school year, which would not be until the summer of
next year. And I assume our police department has extension plans in place to protect uh these celebrations. >> We've we've been in touch with the developer construction department uh police department on all of the um
Hanukkah celebrations >> for the Hanukkah. Yes, the police department is is aware and they are prepared for the event. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Right. The next item of the agenda is ordinance number 2025-23 on second reading. Madame clerk, would
you please read the title of this ordinance into the record? >> Amending chapter 150 zoning article 13 non-conforming uses and structures section 13.3 extensions enlargements or changes paragraph B code.
>> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Would somebody move the ordinance, please? >> So moved. >> Motion's made by the deputy mayor. Is there a second? >> I'll second it. Seconds made by Councilman Roman. Now is the time for the public hearing on ordinance 2025-23. Same public comment statement applies. However, comments are limited to this
ordinance hearing. None. Any I close public comment. Any council discussion? >> Just quick comment. The uh a zoning official caught this and and brought it to our attention. I think it's a very good catch and shows the exemplary work
that she has been doing. So, thank her for this. >> Thank you very much. >> Sorry, Councilman Holland. >> Um, yes, I I appreciate her for flagging it. It is something that um I think has been taken advantage of over the years.
Um, so I do think it is an appropriate um amendment to to the ordinance. I just want to thank the members of the public as well who brought concerns forth. I had the opportunity to meet with members of the public who were affected um by
this and that helped to perpetuate the helped put forth the ordinance. So I thank those members of public for that. Unfortunately they won't get the benefit of this ordinance but their work will help other people to get the benefit of it. Mayor >> just because this you know people were
kind of speaking without describing what we're doing here. This is essentially if you have a existing building that has a setback violation and you go to put an extension on this building, the extension has to be compliant with the
current bulk regulations and um doesn't make the setback violation worse. So if a building is already too wide and you want to go further back, you can't go back further wide than you're allowed basically is. So, it's intended to try and to the best extent possible apply
the current bulk standards and setbacks to an extension on a building that would otherwise be permitted. >> Thank you, Mr. Roman. >> Madam Cler, would you call the role, please? >> Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes.
>> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. >> Mayor Tambbor, >> yes. >> Mayor 2025-23, passes 50 and it will be published according to law. Thank you. The next ordinance on second reading is number 2025-24.
Madame clerk, would you please read the title of this ordinance into the record? >> An ordinance to amend chapter A565-7 of the code of the tangible Verona for pool fees. >> Thank you, madam clerk. Would somebody move the ordinance? >> So moved. >> Motion made by the deputy mayor. Is
there a second? >> Second it. >> Second is by Councilman Roman. Now it's time for the public hearing on ordinance 2025-24. Same public comment statement applies.
Mr. Shore, thank you again, Mr. Mayor and town council. Um, this has been a long process to get here to where we are, probably three years worth. Um overall the fees and policies here uh that are
going to be voted on um I agree with I don't agree with all the process that happened. I don't agree with all the transparency. Um maybe there could have been more transparency on a budget that would have been good. However, um I have a couple questions for administration so
that I think so that the public would feel more comfortable. Uh number one is will the administration um make an effort to obtain 50,000 in sponsorship uh this summer? Will the administration make an effort to market
and push the current membership that there was an increase of 2% to increase that to at least 5%. Can the administration increase the miscellaneous revenue which currently under its sort of budget instead of
going down in revenue go up by 45%. Can administration do everything possible to obtain as much sponsorship to cover the fire fighters and rescue squad so it doesn't come out of town funds? And finally, can the
administration fulfill a 100 non-residential memberships so that this way there'd be an additional 100,000 of revenue? If all five to six steps are taken care of and they've done not to the fullest, doesn't have to be 100%.
Even 50 55%. then the pool will not be in the range of losing 200,000 a year which it has for the last three years that maybe it'll lose 50,000 25,000 moving in the right direction. Can the administration make that
commitment to the public to the council so that the gap is finally closed and we're moving towards potential savings going forward so that the pool has money to repair itself over the next 5, 10, 15 years. Thank you very much for your time.
>> Thank you, Mr. Shore. Any other comments? If not, a closed public comment. Mr. Sullivan, did you want to answer any of those comments? >> Sure, Mayor. Thank you. Um I I can say that the township administration uh both
myself, the deputy manager, our new uh director of community services, our public information officer, uh we've been working uh collectively uh with our CFO as well on a number of on all the items that have been addressed. uh a lot of the growth in marketing uh in
sponsorship revenues or growth in marketing the the pool numbers and and bringing in larger revenues to the pool or growing the miscellaneous revenue that's anticipated in the future budget. Uh we we are largely bound by what the state allows us to anticipate for future
revenue. So, as we do prepare our future budgets for 2026, we are capped at being able to anticipate the revenue that we received in the prior year. That said, it doesn't mean that we are not pursuing the revenues through sponsorships,
through miscellaneous uh additional miscellaneous revenues. Uh we do have uh communications that have begun to be prepared by our public information officer to try to begin the uh both the sponsorship revenues the uh the
marketing to the existing residents to newer residents that have moved in and uh we have begun uh and we have drafted a pool marketing subcommittee policy which we will be looking to implement in the new year as well to bring in additional uh community input as well.
Uh I know the um the director of our community services is also here. Uh she's she's um been very involved in this process and since she's taken the uh position. I know she has uh sample
sponsorship letters and general letters and a a roadmap prepared for implementing as soon as we have uh a number of these fees adopted this evening. Uh we are just as recently as this afternoon we've met with community
pass on making sure that the uh payment plan can be implemented smoothly effectively the beginning of January. Um and and we are continuing to endeavor on each of those initiatives that were were raised by Mr. Shore. >> Thank you. Madam cler could call the
role please. >> Councilwoman Holland. >> No. Councilwoman McGrath. >> No. Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. >> Mayor Tambborro, >> yes.
>> Mayor, ordinance 2025-24, passes 3 to2 and will be published according to law. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. The next ordinance on second reading is number 2025-25. Madame clerk, would you please read the title of this ordinance into the record?
Amending the code of the township of Verona chapter A565 fees A565-7 Verona community pool membership and other fees section B membership types to establish a non-resident membership
category and to revise other categories. >> Thank you madam clerk. Will somebody move the ordinance please? So the motion is made by Councilman Roman. I will second the motion. Now it's time for public hearing on ordinance 2025-25.
Same public comment statement applies. Mr. Shore. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, town council. Um um the committee and myself, sorry, the committee and myself have worked very hard on a lot of these things for the
last couple years. If there are going to be no votes here tonight, I please ask you to explain why there are no votes because it's, you know, a little tough when you work hard, you try to do the right thing for the
town and we could have disagreements. That's fine. But I think that the town and uh public deserve to know why there's a no and that's fine. And um yeah, that's about it. Thanks. >> Thank you, Mr. Shore.
I don't have a response to that because obviously it wasn't directed at me, but would either, council member who the comment was directed to like to respond? >> Sure. I have stated extensively on the record. I've discussed at various um reccomitt meetings as well as at these public meetings that I do not
necessarily agree with these rate increases. Um and so I am not voting in favor of them this evening. rather than burden the record. I wasn't intending on putting that statement in every single one of the ordinances, but I'm happy to do so now. Um, but it is not news and it
should not be news to the public that I am not supportive of these. I did not vote for their introduction either. >> Councilwoman McGrath. >> Um, yes, I really have talking touching this. Sorry. >> Should be working now. >> I'm getting used. I'm getting used to I
apologize. Um, you know, I was going to vote yes up until tonight, but I know that the public had a lot of feedback on all different aspects of the pool and one of the things we heard very consistently is that the guest rate fees
are too high and honestly I just made a decision at the DEAS that ju to raise it by a dollar I think was not necessary. I know the administration took the position that if things didn't have a more significant increase um everything
was going up 2% and I just I just think we also have to be listening to the residents and putting our common sense hat on. So that is why I didn't vote for uh that particular thing. But I do plan to support um you know letting in out of town memberships. But I do think we
should have le left the guest pass fee like alone. I don't think residents are going to appreciate this after all the extensive feedback that they gave in multiple surveys. Thank you. >> I'll just uh briefly address why I voted in favor. Um,
I think that this was the the best outcome as far as this ordinance goes. And the point that I made in the last council meeting related to the fees is that we have four to five plus% increase in our wages this year and we have to offset that with an increase um in our
fees and that's just unfortunately the the cost of doing business. But I do want to thank all our professionals and the uh the recreation committee and Mr. Sure, especially for really diving into this. And I think that while on on the
fees and on the revenue anticipated from allowing an out of town members, you know, I I'm optimistic that it'll work out well with the out of town members, but I, as I've said on the record before, um I think we've made some
assumptions. Um, and I am I'm nervous about those assumptions and will we get the 100 families that we are looking for. Um, so I do ask the administration um to keep us updated on that. Um, and I
know that the administration is working on the on marketing, but we need to be doing that sooner rather than later. Um, and we really need to go out to people. Um, I think the residents who I spoke to at length, many, many residents about
the pool, uh, provided some really great feedback on this as far as opening beyond our borders, um, opening to, uh, people sponsored by, uh, or recommended by current residents, um, who are not in contiguous municipalities. Uh, I think that should hopefully be great and
really provide an optimal experience as well. So, um, this is one of those situations where I think it would have been nice to have the pool for burn residents only. At the same point, we have to plug that gap that has built
over all these years. Uh, and got worse, of course, during COVID. Um, and I think this is a a fair way of doing it. And I thank all of the um I think all of the uh the residents who provided feedback and and helped us to
make really good recommendations for policy. Um and I thank our douch administration and uh for and our director of community services and Pam especially for jumping right into this. Um you you just came in at the right time, Pam. So I would like to come up on the
go. >> Thank you. Um so I just wanted to comment and thank um Mr. Oullivan and Mr. Krauss for all their support since I joined and on October 6th when I had to come here after being on the in the role
for 2 weeks to present a study basically that new genen had presented a while back to come back here in October and basically present almost the same exact information to then have newen come back
to us to do the same exact thing twice and we paid them. I'm just here to say that I'm trying we are trying to do a job for the town to do what is best for the town to make sure that our Verona pool moves forward
not backwards. So, I really urge you to just look at the fact that we just want to move forward and we have been working very very hard to get this going and I appreciate all of you and I mean meeting after meeting,
day after day, phone calls, phone calls, reports, emails. Um, I'm really am trying and my number one goal ever in this in my jobs here in Verona is to do what's best for the community and for the residents.
So, I just urge you all I mean the rates are going up but New Jen had said that a while back and here we are talking about the rates months and months months months later. So just please I just urge you to just do what's right for the
Verona pool and I will work and do everything I can to M Mr. Shore to your point I know you've been on me about sponsorships and all that and once we get the go I will go. So thank you I appreciate all of you. Thank you.
>> Thank you Mrs. Prisco. Mr. Ron also just you know comment on my yes vote. Um these fees are you know as much as I hate I hate raising any fee um it's to me it's just the same thing as raising taxes I you know we do it it's begrudgingly and when it's supported by
data um this is a little bit more palatable to me um for these fees uh because some of them are you know optional services behind beyond the base services of the pool um I recognize the financial difficulties of the pool again
this is you know we talked about affordable housing earlier is something that we spend a lot of time on. We spent a lot of time this year talking about the financials of the pool. It's a very complicated utility to make work um and our constraints and how we operate it uh from a fiscal management perspective. Uh
coupled with how tight everybody's personal budgets are right now. Uh let's just let's you know not let that go unrecognized. Um this is this is very difficult. Uh we also have a very long cycle here of
seeing how our changes uh bear out in reality. Um you know we set fees for the year and we have to go into the year charging these fees. So you know there is some uncertainty to this and we are you know doing the best that we possibly can taking the advice that we have uh to
try and make the pool work. Um, I do trust in our administration and our new director of community services to go out and try and make the get all get all the non-membership revenue they possibly can for the pool and also to drive membership as hard as we can. I think
we've made that point up here sort of at infinitum that uh just sitting around and waiting for people to come to us is uh not a great strategy. Um, so I don't need to ask for a promise. I simply trust that it's going to be done this time around and uh we'll see how well it works. It's going to be something new
for us and we will evaluate at the end of the year and see how we did. But appreciate all the work of everyone involved on this one and uh that's why I was willing to support this ordinance because it's the appropriate thing to do to try and make the pool something we can operate. >> Councilwoman Holland,
>> thank you. And Pam, I just want to follow up on your comments just to make it clear and and I had said this earlier this evening that a failure to vote in favor of something doesn't necessarily have to be viewed in in like somehow like a personal indictment of an
individual. I want to say how much I have appreciated the work that you have put in since taking the role. It's clearly a very challenging time to step into a new role and you're working on that and you're taking the opportunities that are presented to you. So, I just really want to say that I respect that.
I know it's a challenging thing to do. I know it's also hard to see your hard work also get, you know, you know, a no vote on it, but it's not a personal indictment. Just similarly, it's not a personal indictment of anybody on the rec committee or the subcommittees. Not everything in these ordinances were
recommended by the rec committee. So, there are aspects of, you know, my concerns about these ordinances that actually stemmed from those rec committee meetings. So, it is with um an intention of being responsive to my constituency that I would vote no on any
of these things and why I didn't vote to introduce them either. In fact, Mr. Shore, you had stood up and objected to some of these at the last meeting. So, I do just think it's important to understand that I can vote no for something but still have tremendous respect for the individuals that are
recommending it. And I do have tremendous respect for both of you and the whole rec committee behind you as well as this administration. So, thank you. >> Madam clerk, would you call the roll, please? >> Councilwoman H. I'm sorry, Councilwoman Holland.
>> No. Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. Mayor, I'm sorry. Um, Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. >> Mayor Tambbora, >> yes. >> Mayor, ordinance uh 2025-25
passes a quarter1 and it will be published according to law. >> Thank you. The next ordinance on the agenda is ordinance number 2025- 26 on second reading. And madam clerk, would you please read the title of this
ordinance into the record? An ordinance to amend chapter A565-7 the code of the township of Verona pool membership fees. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Would somebody move the ordinance, please? >> I'll move it. Is there a second? >> I'll second.
>> Thank you. Um, at this time, we'll have the public hearing on ordinance 2025-26. Same public comment statement applies. Seeing no public comment, I close public
comment. I will make one item of discussion. Um I think that these uh these fees are reasonable. I just want to the public to remember that the original new gen report was to
recommended that we had to in order to um meet our expenses, we were looking at another double digit increase this year. Um the increase on the full memberships is 2% across the board. Uh which is much
less obviously than 10 or or more than that percent. I can't remember the exact number. Um so what part of the the strategy here is to keep our our pool fees down and then invite in the um the
non-residents in order to make up for some of that revenue. Um, it is also important to note that in comparison to other towns, our fees for having a better facility are still less. Um, and that's something that we also should not lose sight of. Um, so I I would put it
out there and I'm with Councilman Roman. Um, you know, I've over the last four and a half years stated my vocal opposition to raising a lot of fees, but in this circumstance, you you have to raise these fees to keep this program alive. it is a self-quidating utility um
and we need to keep it that way so that the tax burden does not fall on the non-users. So the the users of the facility need to pay for the facility. Um and it has value for the rest of the town and still with projections at this point the town is still you know putting
some um some of our salaries and stuff have not been proportionally dispersed over the pool um because at this point we haven't projected the revenue to do that. Um so we still haven't really met that burden that I would like us to meet. Uh but that would require the fees
going higher. Um, so at this point, um, and I I look forward to an ongoing review of the budget for this, um, as part of our regular budget cycle, but throughout the summer, it's been my request from Mr. Sullivan on the phone that we'll see budget versus actuals on
the pool so we can try to address this um, sooner rather than later as we go forward. Council Mor. >> So, at the last meeting, I kind of stated I have some reservations about this. Um, yes, I know that by us putting
together a pool budget. Um, getting the report from New Gen Strategies that says we should do this. Um, and this is intended to be sort of just an honest discussion item amongst everybody up here, I'm just open-minded and want to hear opinions. Are we adequately considering basically demand response to
our fee setting here? In other words, just because we raise the fees by 2%, does it mean that we're going to make 2% more revenue or is there a risk of loss of memberships here? Especially because for families, we're crossing a $700 threshold for pool fees. Um,
this is not without risk. Yes, like I said, yes, from a budgeting standpoint, we should do this from pricing a a service that like it or not is optional to whether people buy it or not. you know, are we doing the right thing
or are we not? And what are what happens if we're wrong? That's all. >> Thank you, Council Leven Holland. >> Thank you. Um, I will say that I have significant reservations about some of
the fees that are proposed in this ordinance, including the non-resident fee. Um, I will say that where residents indicated a willingness to have the non-resident fee as it ties to the prior ordinance, there was discussion with
several residents where they wanted, you know, for example, their their grown children and other neighboring communities to come. I do worry that this fee structure kind of didn't understand the assignment and that if I'm a grandparent and my grown children
and their my grandchildren live in West Orange and I want them to have this fee if I want them to have you know the out of town membership to help build back the membership that the thousand membership um for out of town residents isn't going to be uh workable. Um these
are residents that also objected to the guest pass fees. So, I do have concerns that um we aren't going to be building back the membership, but I do recognize the new den strategy and the difficulty of this decision-making and I reiterate the statements that I had made um during
prior public hearings on the prior ordinances as well as the prior meetings. Thank you. >> Thank you, Councilwoman McGrath. >> Thank you. Um I do have concerns I I have concerns about really the significant headwinds in the economy. Um
this is though an affordable way for families to spend their summer but if you don't have any income coming in none of you know that that we we may have a loss of membership whether we raise these fees or not because of the economy and I am concerned about um job losses
that people are already facing. Um and um the one thing we're trying to accomplish, which no one has mentioned tonight, is that we're passing these in December, which is probably one of the earliest times that we've ever passed these fees because one of the things residents ask for is the ability to pay
overtime. So by not passing these fees tonight, we would be jeopardizing one of the things that we wanted to do to actually build back membership because residents even in a more solid economy was saying they needed to pay overtime. And we actually see with the rise of pay
late, buy now pay later services that a lot of people are doing that. Some of them are doing it for groceries. So this is really, you know, challenging. I will say to the administration and again I share my Councilwoman Holland everything
that she said about her um appreciation for the extensive work that the administration put in that the recreation staff put in that the recreation advisory committee put in but I if this isn't successful we do need to look at whether or not our current rate
structure is working for us meaning do we take more of a rate structure like that the ski slopes have where you're saying you're buying a pass per adult and you're buying a pass per child. This is, you know, we have these family, these caregivers, these couples. One
thing that I objected to with the new gem analysis is that we didn't look at a rebalancing based on family size and our actual data and swipes. So, there are different ways um you know that we can approach this. This is a continuation of
the same. I will vote in support. I do think that we need to pilot I wish we used this word more the 100 out of town family memberships. I do hope we reach that number. Um but we may not reach that number for a host of reasons,
things that are out of our control like the economy. Um but I will, you know, vote in favor of this tonight. I look forward to the marketing. I'm sure some people will sign up very early so that they can take advantage of that payover time. And you know, I do have faith in
our administration, our volunteers. Um, and um, this is our best asset. I will make one last comment to our administration. I've gotten a lot of feedback that people want to see all levels of management of our township at
pool and people who work at the pool and pool members notice when senior people in our township are not there. So I think it's a really good and actually this all came up too in the context of Jim Cunningham who was at the pool a lot
and we know he did and he put safety really at the top which I know you all do but I just want to reiterate that comment since we're um pontificating. So you know it's important to have um a visual presence at the pool and um
throughout the season and I think the residents and the staff uh they really do notice. So, I I please take that under consideration. Thank you. >> I'll uh I'll close out. I Sorry, I won't close out. Um but you know, it's interesting that you bring up that point. I spoke to Miss Prrisco a couple
months ago and Miss Prisco is talking about moving her desk down there for a couple days in the summer. Um so, I know Miss Presco will be down at the pool and I look forward to that and talked to the town manager about that and uh and I've offered my support um for that because I
I think it's important. So, I thank Mrs. Frisco for taking the initiative to to go down and do that. Um, and I know that the folks in the town will be happy to see her there. Um, to Councilman Roman's point, you know, as as a teacher of economics, I I think that I'm positioned
to um to understand the uh the price elasticity of demand argument. Um, we're talking about raising a family membership by less than $14, right? Um, so what I spoke to a lot of residents uh about about the pool after putting out
for requests for comment um the I think the administration had originally proposed a 3% increase um and then it the it we kind of knocked it down to to 2% um in looking at this but people were
willing the ones I spoke to to pay a a reasonable increase in membership to meet expenses. People understand that if at least the people I I spoke to understood that if we kept having 0% increases, then we would be in the same position
again that would require another draconian increase in the future. Um, and I think that's we have to do and it's really important to note that even with the 2% increase, we are still not meeting the increased salary uh piece of
that. So we we have to rely on the out of town members um in order to to hopefully make that up. Um but like you're talking about our kind of maximum increase being less than $14. Um so um and that you know I look forward to
seeing the numbers. Um, and the only way we really know, unfortunately, is that we don't have good data on on what this looks like because this is a one, you know, it's a it's a one u entity situation with a very discreet kind of
set of uh of clients. So, don't really have good comparative data on this, but um I think that increases going up and and for a service um I think people understand that. I think the difficulty is when we saw such a large increase
last year, that's what really turned people off. It was like, hold on a second. Um, so I I hope that um, you know, and and honestly, I I really hope that that $14 does not um price out any of our families and and if it does, I
I'm definitely sorry for that. Um, and I hope that uh, you know, I hope that uh that situation will change for them. Maybe a hand from the deputy mayor pass the administration after. >> Yeah, deputy mayor. >> You just touched on exactly what I was
going to say. Uh I that's why I moved the ordinance last meeting and seconded this meeting. I just think a small increase annually is a lot better than a large increase three years from now. And I think that's that would turn more people off than a a gradual increase
yearbyear. >> I may just >> Sure. Go ahead. Council, >> uh, if I can just ask the administration just for thoughts on risk here. Um, obviously again, just anytime that you cross like a $100 boundary on things, it's a little psychological barrier for some folks. U, just wondering if this
has come up in any of your discussions about, you know, if if we could potentially lose gross revenue by raising rates. Um, you know, what our thoughts are if we get into, you know, membership purchases and we see a slowdown in membership purchases.
um you know just have you kind of evaluated from that aspect. >> So I we did discuss that as as part of the reassessment with new genen we um the target in in prior years was to try
to grow the memberships uh through the pool. um based upon the uh response last year from the uh the membership reduction as as a result of the larger increases. Uh we we had a a lengthier
discussion about that as part of that reassessment uh earlier this year and we spoke about the idea that we certainly couldn't uh we would we couldn't assume any type of growth. We wanted to make sure that we had at the at the most projected flat memberships. Um there is
some bit of risk but again to some of the points the the the 2% increase for uh the the highest uh priced membership is uh which is a family membership. It's an increase of $14 based upon value that uh the pool
provides compared to value of a lot of other summer programs or events or types of um day trips that families might go on. the $14 increase seemed less risky than um than what some of the other
anticipate um the other projections were in prior uh financial modeling. >> Okay. Then just my final closing comment. I'm just going to quote Mr. sure that uh volume uh I think this I just I think that we all realize this that we desperately need to get people
to purchase pool memberships that traditionally have not in the f in the past and we need non-membership revenue um and plus the out of town memberships. I mean that's what's really going to financially st that's going to financially stabilize the pool better than a 2% rate increase generally. You
know we just can't anticipate it. So I really I really am looking forward to I will say a very strong effort from all involved on attempting to drive membership and non-membership revenue this year and let's just see what happens and you know all we can do is
talk about an effort. So based on those responses yes I will support the 2% increases and thank you to all for their work on all this. >> Madam clerk would you call the vote please? >> Councilwoman Holland. >> No. >> Councilwoman McGrath. Yes,
>> Councilman Roman. >> Yes, >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy. >> Yes, >> Mayor Tambboro. >> Yes, >> Mayor. Ordinance 2025-26 passes 4 to1 and it will be published according to law.
>> Thank you, Madam Clerk. The next item of the agenda is ordinance number 202 5-27 on second reading. Would you please read the title of this ordinance into the record? fixing the salaries and compensation of the seasonal employees
of the Verona community pool. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Would somebody move this ordinance, please? >> So moved. >> Motion made by Council Roman. The second is made by Councilwoman McGrath. Now is the time for the public hearing on this ordinance. Same public comment.
Statement applies. Hearing none, I close public hearing. Any council comment? Councilwoman Holland. >> Um I view this aspect of the pool ordinances as distinct from the earlier
ordinances that were put forward. This is effectively a salary ordinance. Much of it is driven by minimum wage increases and other obligations of the township. So um but with regard to the other aspects of the pool fee rate
structure and associated ordinances, I maintain those objections. >> Thank you. I will be voting in favor of this and also because I voted in favor of all the ordinances that fund u these increases. Deputy mayor,
>> this is a six 7% increase across the board. Is it? >> No. >> Uh the increase is uh on minimum wage is roughly 4.9 or 5%.
um returning. So that's the base increase and then returning employees receive a small increase of 25 cents per year um a dollar in year four. So the the increase if everyone returns is
larger than just minimum wage but not every employee returns. >> Thank you. And there is an incentive to provide that because it's actually very difficult to find lifeguards correct who are willing to put in the hours. So, I just want to add like we're looking at a
percentage of salary increase of 5%. And my only question to my fellow council members is how do you pay for that if we don't say yes to other ordinances? >> Thank you. Madam clerk, would you call the role, please?
>> Councilwoman Holland, >> no. >> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. Mayor Tim Kimbor. >> Yes. >> Mayor ordinance 2025-27 passes order one and it will be
published according to >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. The next item on the agenda is uh going to be in the deputy mayor's um hands as I will be relinquishing the chair to the deputy mayor for this one.
>> Oh, it's a pool ordinance. >> Sorry. >> Give me a second. I'm sorry. >> Sure. Are you okay? >> Yeah, I just mixed everything up. It's okay. >> Ordinance 86. Madame clerk, can you please read the title?
>> Thank you. Amending the code of the township of Verona chapter A565 fees A565657.1 Verona community pool exemption from fees to require the township's chief financial officer to annually transfer
the value of pool memberships that are exempt from fees under this section from the general fund to the pool utility. >> Would anyone like to move this ordinance? >> So moved. >> Moved by Councilman Roman. >> Second. Have a second by councilwoman Holland.
At this time could ask for public comment on this ordinance. Hearing none. Council comments. Councilwoman McGrath. Don't touch it. >> I'm not going to touch it. Um Deputy Mayor, I need to re um recuse myself from this vote as well.
>> Okay. Any other comments? I'll just state the reason for my recusal is that while I do not take this benefit, I am a member of the rescue squad for a long time and thus will be recusing. Okay. >> And I will state that um that I have a family member who's a member of the
rescue squad, but I also do not get the benefit. Thank you. >> Thank you, Councilwoman Holland. I will say that the free memberships to the Verona Fire and Rescue Squad is a tremendous benefit to um those
volunteers who do such amazing work for our um community. In fact, some were even recognized earlier this evening. One of the items that the rec committee identified as it started digging into
the pool financial situation was the cross subsidy issue that comes from the township council authorizing free memberships without providing any kind of funding into the pool utility to
cover those free memberships. As a result, all of the other paying members, so for example, drawing on our current fee structure, the family members, the family memberships that are paying the 710, some of that money was going toward
these free memberships. This ordinance creates a mechanism where the township can use those the township's funds to provide funding into the pool utility to match those free memberships. So it's
essentially the township is now paying for the policy determination it had made many years ago. And I think that this is the correct mechanism to make that right. And so we get to keep the free memberships for the fire and rescue squad while also helping to keep the
pool solvent. And where this is distinct from other pool ordinances, this is its own standalone ordinance on this discreet issue. And this is one that the rec committee has consistently spoken about and I have spoken about um for several years as well. I think it's the
right outcome. Uh I will add to this. Many years ago was when this was proposed I was uh uh I I think I moved the ordinance years ago. Uh I think it's very essential to have our uh fire and rescue personnel up
there. Uh, I think it's in time of need. It's a split-second reaction from people that are on site. Uh, I do remember years ago that's kind of why we did it to entice more people to go to the pool. Uh, I do think this is a a fair
compromise. The one thing here, I don't think we're writing any wrong. I just think it's it's it's a good compromise to settle this back and forth. Uh, I really don't think if we have 15 memberships that we
give out that it's taking away that much from the pool. It's not like we're losing that amount of money. It's just a couple more people at the pool all at once. Uh, so I don't think it's something that took away from the pool. Plus, we know uh they give back as far
as uh what they give uh as far as uh lessons and things to the pool and that's what we balanced out here. So, I think this is a good compromise and uh I look forward to uh Is this something that needs four votes?
>> No, >> it didn't need four votes to introduce it. >> No, it didn't. >> Yeah, it just didn't need four. >> Well, I'm just thinking in my head that it's money that the town spent. >> Right. But it's not an obligation of cash. >> Okay. No. All right. >> Okay. Good.
>> Okay. Madam clerk, can you please call the role? Uh, Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. >> Um, Mayor Ordinance 2025-26
passes three to zero with two abstensions or recusals. I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. Was that uh the ordinance number? Could you state it again? I think >> 2025-20. Oh, did I say I'm sorry. 2025-28. >> 28. Thank you. >> I apologize.
>> Mr. Mayor, I have the floor back. >> Thank you. The mayor resumes the chair. At this point, madam clerk, the next item on the agenda is ordinance 2025-29, a second reading. Would you please read the title of this ordinance into the record, >> amending chapter 501 of the Township
Code Flood Control Advisory Board. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. I will move this ordinance. Is there a second? >> Second. Seconds made by Councilwoman Holland. I will open for public hearing on this ordinance.
Seeing none, close public hearing. Any council comments? Hearing none, Madam Clerk, could you call the role, please? >> Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes.
>> Mayor Tambbor, >> yes. Mayor ordinance 2025-29 passes 50 and it will be published according to law. >> Before we move the consent agenda, is there any item anybody wishes to be removed from the consent agenda?
>> Councilwoman McGrath. >> Um yes. Um I would like to remove resolution 11. >> L1 >> L1. I do have a significant question on
L5 as well that I would like answer before. >> Okay. Well, we can do that in discussion but >> well I if I may decide then to um to move it. >> Okay. Then we have to >> okay let's move it out. So we'll add L5 as well. >> Thank you.
>> L5 L11. >> I would like to remove K1. >> K1. And is it recusal or do you want to you want to vote on those motion? You can >> I need to abstain from that vote. >> Okay. >> All right.
At this time I will um entertain a motion on K2 L1 through 4, 6 through 10, and 12 through 13. >> So moved. >> Motion's made by Councilman Roman. Is there a second?
>> I'll second it. >> Second's made by the deputy mayor. I will open for public comment on any consent agenda item including the ones not just moved. Same public comment statement applies except we are just on
consent agenda items. Seeing no public comment, I close public comment. Any council discussion on the moved resolutions? >> So we're limiting to the move. Okay. >> Just the move resolutions. Hearing none.
Madam clerk, would you call the role, please? >> Second. C. >> Councilman Holland. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman McGrath. >> Yes.
>> Councilman Roman. >> Yes. >> Mayor Mackoy. >> Yes. >> Mayor Tambour. >> Yes. >> All right. Mayor L1 through L4 will be numbered 285 through 288. 6 through 10
will be 289 through 293 and 12 and 13 will be 294 295. >> Thank you. This time I'll hear a motion on K1 moved.
>> Motion's made by Councilman Roman. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. Is there any discussion? Hearing none. Yeah, go ahead. >> I I just was not present for this meeting, so I intend to abstain. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Would you call the role, please?
>> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. >> I'm see sorry. >> Councilwoman Holland, >> abstain. >> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes.
Tambboro. >> Yes. >> Um so the November 1st minute November 10th minutes will um pass a vote to four to one four to zero with one extension. Okay.
>> All right. Thank you. At this time I'll hear a motion on L5. So moved. >> Motion is made by Councilman Roman. Is there a second? >> I'll second. Second made by Deputy Mayor
Makavoy. Council discussion. The chair recognizes Councilwoman McGrath. >> Thank you. M Sullivan, can you just >> I wanted to tie this. So, it seems like the library is having issues and they
needed a new uh boiler. But I also know that we did a whole energy analysis and it was recommending that we move towards more energy efficient models.
So, I wanted to know did anyone instead of just like, oh, we're replacing this are did anyone stop to >> I have an idea. >> Hey, it turned green. >> I don't know how to trouble. >> That's why I was wondering.
Okay. So, can we just provide did anyone stop to think about replacing this with an energy efficient model? >> Um, like the replacement of this is for the boiler
that failed and caused a a fire response. There was smoke in the um uh in the boiler room uh over I believe it was over Thanksgiving weekend. Um the so
the this is a an emergency repair or emergency replacement of the boiler that has failed. Um I don't know if a energy efficient model >> it was mine
>> just >> I just turned off mine >> mine was >> you broke your mic. I did. Thanks. Thank you. >> I don't know if a if an energyefficient model was uh analyzed in this particular
instance. >> Okay. Um Okay, that was my question. I mean I do want us to I know that you are currently we have not entered into execution phase of that plan the energy efficiency plan
which has credits and all this stuff but at the same time >> you know I wasn't sure and I'm I apologize for not asking the question before the meeting but um if we had an opportunity to move to something more efficiently recognizing though it is an
emergency situation the uh the this particular replacement does not address a full analysis of an energy efficient model. However, the general energy efficiency efforts are still
underway and we did recently sit with uh with BPU about putting together an EIP uh RFQ in the coming weeks. uh it's not final and it's not ready for uh advertising, but we are still moving forward with that effort as well. >> Okay, thank you.
>> I would imagine the spoiler will probably be more energy efficient than the last one. >> Yeah. Can I ask how old the did we replace it when we redid the the renovations on the library? >> I don't know. >> Okay. >> Council Roman. >> Um we I part of the problem this is a
steam you know this this is a steam boiler. will probably do anything more energy efficient. We'd have to replace the radiators or otherwise go to something different. I don't know if we could run a, you know, a standard hydronic boiler with all the existing terminal units that might not have been
workable as an emergency. I don't recall us having replaced the boiler during the library rena. We replaced the air conditioning units. Um, but yeah, I looked I looked into I I looked at the nerd I filled up the spec sheet on this unit when I saw my packet.
It's a it's a more energyefficient modern boiler. Is it going to be bestin-class? Is it a heat pump system? Is it a No. But if this was to get the library's heat back online, you got to do what you got to do. >> Yeah. >> That's that's that is the case. It's to get the heat back in service fully in
the library >> ASAP >> without having to rent. I mean, if we had to go rent emergency heat, it probably would have been more than the cost of this entire replacement. >> Very likely. Yes. >> Right. This this is a reimbursement from the library and it's also an insurance claim that we are um hoping to have some
reimbursement from our from the GIF as well. So, it's not a full expenditure from the township. >> Great. Thank you, Madam Cler. Could you call the role, please? >> Councilwoman Holland. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman McGrath. Yes,
>> Norman. >> Yes. >> Deputy Mayor M. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Mayor. Um, resolution L5 will be numbered 2025-296. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. The Would
somebody move um L11? >> So moved. >> Motion's made by the deputy mayor. Is there a second? >> Second it. >> Second is by Councilman Roman. Any council discussion on L11? >> Okay. Madam hearing none, Madam Cler, call the roll, please.
>> Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> McGrath, >> abstain. >> Council Roman, >> yes. >> Mackoy, >> yes. >> Mayor Timo, >> yes. Um L11
will be numbered 2025-297 and it passes 4 to one one extension. >> Okay. Well, thank you. We don't have any licenses or permits. We don't have any
agenda. Um, we will be going into executive session after public comment to discuss the appointments that are listed on this agenda. At this time, I'll open for if there's any any other items of new or unfinished business.
Okay, hearing none, I'll go into um I'll open for public comment on any item anybody wishes to discuss. Seeing no public comment, I close public comment. We have previously made a pass resolution to go into executive session.
We'll be doing so and official action may be taken following the executive session. Thus ends the public meeting. >> Um >> there's a hand up. >> Uh while I close public comment, but does anybody object to
there's uh allowing Mr. Ryan to comment? Any objections? All right. But I will reopen public comment. Uh, Mr. Ryan, >> you have to give us senior citizens a little more time to click on the button, but that's okay. Uh, I just have clarification.
>> Did you say you would be coming out of executive session to vote on the committee appointments? >> Now he disappeared. >> Did you say Did you say you would be coming out of executive session to vote on the committee? not muted.
>> Did you hear me? >> Kevin, if you want to um if we can bounce them out out and then back in >> might help disable talking. >> Yeah. And then again, >> hello. Can you hear me now?
Mr. Ryan. >> Yes. Did you say you would be coming out of the executive session to vote on the appointments? >> I think people can hear him perhaps on the Zoom. >> Is our speaker off?
>> It had been working before doing yours. >> That'll be funny. What number are you on there? Did it say >> I have everybody unmuted? >> Yes. Hi. Can you hear me now? >> This is super weird. >> It's on twice.
>> Can you It seems like >> Kevin, we can hear you. Can you hear me now? >> Yeah. Yeah. You're just gonna have to talk through Corey's phone because why not? >> Okay. I a very simple question. I asked if you were going to come out of the
executive session to vote on the uh committee appointment. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. That's it. >> Thank Thank you, Mr. Shore.
All right. Um, well, since we reopened, we have another one. Jeremy K. >> Hello. >> Yep, we can hear you. >> Hi, good evening. Uh, Jeremy Katz of Ferona. So, following up on Kevin's question in regards to making decisions on boards and appointments, I did not
receive a rice notice and when I requested one, today I was told that comment um the debates would be made in public and therefore I did not need a rice notice. >> Is that the conclusion of your comment? >> Uh it is. And if you are going to have
it behind then I would like to be Rice and have my candidacy discussed in public. Thank you. Thank you. >> This time I close public comment. Um right notices are not required because they're not staff members. So
that's what we had discussed previously, but um I'll have to pull the council in executive session as to whether we wanted to >> that I believe that you were correct there, mayor, but I don't know that there is a reason to have it in close
session. one of the exceptions like if you're not if you're not going to treat the members as employees which I agree with you they're not um then it should take place at open it's not one of the exceptions to going to closed >> yeah thank you
>> okay this is how we've been doing it for a while this was >> previously previously out of um what I'll say um a conservative view the members were riceed and the council decided to treat them as employees but you can't not recognize like and have
them the right protection but then have the discussion enclosed. So if you want to go the conservative route I would agree with the caller that if you want to go that way and take that stance then you treat them like employees then they should be riceed if you're going to go into close and you'd have a closed session discussion otherwise if they're not employees they're not getting rice
but it's also there's no reason to go into public or into private. Okay. Well, then I guess we're discussing open session at this point. >> Counciloman McGrath, >> what I would suggest since we were um
not prepared speak loudly, hopefully someone else's mic will pick it up. Um >> thank you. Since we were prepared to go into close, this is what I would suggest. We've done this by many methods over the time. I'm incredibly
frustrated. We keep flip-flopping on this in the six years I've been on the council, seven years. But I think in a more appropriate way of doing this is I know we would love to have a conversation, but we can um kind of rank order our choices between now and the
next meeting by a certain date, send them to the municipal clerk. she can kind of add them up with a point system and then at the next meeting she can present the points and then we could just say okay these are the candidates the top you know I think in one committee where we have to vote on three
but we have like seven people and I'm really hesitant to have a detailed conversation about resident volunteers in public but I think if we all review their resumes we give them a call some of us already did that and then we just rank choice them send them to her. She
puts them in a spreadsheet. She adds up the points and then we say, "These are the people we're selecting." Because there's a few of these where we have a lot of applicants and a lot of openings. And I just think we were not prepared to, you know, and again, I'm just looking at the sensitivity of our volunteers. We've
got some great people in there, but not everyone's going to get a spot. And I would like to do it in the most sensitive way possible. Um, and I think between now and January 5th, no one meaningfully was going to be added to a committee. >> Well, I think the the problem is is that
we have committee meetings for starting up very quickly after the fifth, but we're not giving people adequate time to come and for some of the, you know, the policym bodies and stuff like that. Um, that's a problem if you're you don't have enough personnel to operate the
meetings. So, um, I think that's why we we had it on to have the discussion um today. And so that's my concern with moving forward in that direction. I also I I don't necessarily agree with the rank choice
voting piece either. Um because you are depriving the council of the opportunity to have a discussion on the merits of of applicants as is the um as is our duty as public officials in order to do that. Um, so you know, if somebody has a a
legitimate concern about somebody that is being put up, um, especially related to, you know, past performance on a committee or feedback from a committee chair, um, that's not something that is going to be really put forth in um
um in, you know, a rank choice voting system either. So I I do have a concern about that. Um, so I'm not I'm not necessarily in favor of going in that direction either. Um, but this would be a a pretty substantial change to how
we've in my time on the council, we have not, as far as I can remember, done rank choice selection that preceded me. Uh, for sure. So, um, yeah, I'm not I'm not a completely sold on that concept. Um
but we do have a lot of we do have a lot of things and we need to give people time to be able to attend meetings and so on. Um and there you know just some other things as far as like we have we have on some of these committees you
know we have to we have like full full position voting member openings. Um and uh you know doing something as simple as like moving an existing member up is not really conducive to a rank choice voting
model either. Um so I think that's a uh you know that's a concern that I have as well. So I would welcome other suggestions from other council members. My my only thought about that is if we
did a rank choice and then maybe gone into close at the next meeting to discuss positions within the board. It's kind of a a a combination of both.
Uh because I know there's some some boards that we have obviously alternates and uh like shade tree commission. we have a public member and an alternate too, >> right? You know, and um yeah, that's the
situation on a couple of these other ones where in my spreadsheet we have a couple to move people up to um and different things of different terms, um different positions. So, Council Roman, what are your thoughts?
>> I'm also not comfortable with uh discussing volunteers in public. Uh I just again it's you know like we said there's more people interested in these than we have spots for and we appreciate all of them and the decisions are challenging. Um we have done ranking
systems in the past. Um, I agree with the deputy mayor that a reasonable compromise might be a ranking system to determine um who ends up with seats on a board and then a discussion might be acceptable as to what order we put them
in. Um, again, if we have to make someone an alternate or or a different term or something like that, but I just simply am not comfortable, you know, discussing the merits of these things in a in a in a public meeting. um doesn't seem like
the right thing to do. >> Well, the other opportunity is we could rice everybody and discuss in close session >> by the next meeting as well >> unless they make a request to be discuss public which we have to honor if that's the case if we treat them as a employee and rice them >> and we have riceed before.
>> We have >> yes we you know we've had again and I agree that the process on this has been back and forth and back and forth. Um you know it's nice that we get significant interest that we actually have to choose between people for these boards where you know there were times
where we have struggled to fill positions but sensitivity is you know these are these are volunteers they are even though they are stepping forward to be in a public position you know us having a conversation about why we do or don't want them on a board is not a great thing and if we're saying
we can't do it in private you know necessarily if one person wants to be talked about in public, then that kind of makes it challenging for us to even if we do rice everybody else to have a conversation about the rest of everybody in private. >> Yeah. >> Now, if the conversation can't be split,
they can't force it into public, >> right? We're good. >> If the conversation can't be split, one person can't force the entire conversation into public, >> right? >> If you're able to leave that call that one person discussion out and then still have a private discussion, you can do
that. I just the rank the ranking system isn't perfect, but it at least um gets us to a reasonable consensus of who's going to be on each of these boards. I think the other uh problem here is
since we also move the election and we're not changing over till later in January, some of these seats expire at the end of the year. So, do we get people on these
boards in time enough in January to be sitting on these boards? >> Uh, yeah. I that's my concern is that all the terms expire? >> December 31st. >> December 31st. >> So, are there any other meetings before the 5th? Where's that scheduled? >> No, there's not.
>> The board of adjustment is the first meeting in 2026. >> What date is that? >> The 8th. Yeah. And then the following week is when the last three weeks in January is where almost every committee will meet. >> So the board of adjustment is two. And
would the med would any appointments if we did make appointments on the 5th would they be immediately effective or could we could we wave any cure period basically so that they were >> Yeah. that they could be immediately effective. >> They can be effective immediately. Yeah.
It's a resolution for appointment. >> Wait, what? I'm sorry. All right. So, they can be they can sit on the board immediately after the resolution is >> the minutes basically don't have we don't have to approve the minutes to make the appointment effective, do we?
>> Um, so yeah. >> All right. Well, I'll hear a motion on how to on how to proceed with this and we'll vote on a uh on a way of proceeding. So the two options I'm hearing are one is a rank choice voting well I guess there
three options one is a rank choice voting system that decides the appointments and other is a rank choice voting system that informs the appointments and then we decide the position of the individuals after as we pick our top people to be on the committee and we decide where they sit.
Um and then our other option is to rice everybody and discuss them all in close session unless somebody wants it in open session. >> Um isn't there another hybrid option where it's we're doing the rank choice voting to just simplify the conversation
but then we can rice >> that was option two. >> Two but we still have to rice people in option two. to have a conversation and closed about relative positioning >> or we simply wave doing that and we just take nominations and vote then that's
yeah I mean that >> you know it denies us the ability to >> because if we're if we're going to race everybody anyway I wouldn't >> I don't see the need to do the rank choice voting piece we can just talk about if we're going to have a close session we can talk about people in close session doesn't make any sense to do both of those things
>> so yeah I mean or the other option is we just simply make nominations and they either pass or they don't >> right I mean that's >> we don't qualitative discussions >> that's how I wanted to uh do it years ago just nominate and have a vote but um
and that saves a discussion on on merits or whatever we can do that certainly as well I think that's the most um certainly the uh uh the most transparent option So, somebody make a motion
>> to >> a motion to on how to proceed and we'll vote on them. We'll vote on a uh a process. I don't want anybody to, you know, say they've been left out of deciding how the process is done. So, we'll do it by a motion as we conduct any other business. Yes. Okay. Um, I'll
make a motion that um, we rise everyone and we have conversation and close at the next meeting. Thank you. >> Is there a second? >> Second, >> council discussion. >> Again, we run into the problem that if we have anyone that requests a public
discussion, then we have to discuss all of those volunteers in public. >> No, you just said >> no, >> just would just be that one. >> Just that individual. >> Just that individual. If you can split the conversation >> or you can just simply not discuss that person at all. >> Correct. If they're not going to be appointed or if they are going to be
appointed, you have no discussion about them, then you don't have to discuss them. >> You only have discussion if you have discussion because the vote is still public. Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> So, okay. Any other council discussion
on that item? Okay. Mad cler call the role on rising everybody. Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> Counciloman McGrath, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes.
>> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes. >> Mayor Camuro, >> sorry. >> Yes. >> Mayor, motion passes 5 to zero. And I'll race everybody this week because of the holidays. Yeah, >> I'm wondering if we might just be able to do some appointments because there's
no there's no contest on some of these um just to to let people know they'd be reappointed. >> So, >> I wouldn't I would al together >> um just so they can hear. So, I
>> the environmental commission >> um only had one applicant. Uh, now the environmental commission is a mayor's appointment. >> I'm sorry. >> He's asking if the environmental commission is a mayor appointment. >> I believe that's a mayor appointment,
right? >> I don't know. Off the top of my head. I sent you the >> Oh, I'm sorry. It is. No. Um, >> and e code it says it's a mayor's appointment, but did we figure out that's not actually a thing? >> Correct. Um, Brian, I'm going to pull it up.
>> I thought you sent in the list. I'm sorry. >> You did. I looked at the code today. >> The last time we appointed >> correct, but it was the statute. the environmental commission the township manager makes the appointment per 40 col 69a-98.
Basically the environmental commission is an administrative it's not a policymaking body and therefore according to that statute this is one of the statutes where um if it relates to the mayor it goes to the manager under
this form of government. >> So the I don't think that's >> 469A is the um council manager form a government under Faulner. >> I don't think that's how we've done it in the past, but I think it's changed
since then. >> Well, I guess we'll have to wait until next meeting to do that. >> Though the mayor has traditionally appointed the >> chair, >> the chair. So, I'm going to at the request of the um of the environmental commission
reappoint uh Jessica Pearson as chair person of the environmental commission. Uh, and we can we can do that now. Um, as a mayor's appointment and we'll get a
I believe it was either the council or the mayor has always done that, Brian. I don't. All right. Um, moving down to the historic preservation commission. again. Fry, >> you should vote on that one right now.
>> On what? >> That appointment. >> Which appointment? >> No, that's just a mayor's appointment. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, the chair chairperson of the commission is a mayor's appointment. >> I just made it. It's done. Um the environmental commission. Um we had
we have one renewal and then we have a member to move up from alternate to public member and at least in my calculations Alina Stitchka. So I'll move to reappoint Tina Schwarz
and to appoint Elena Stitchka as a public member both terms expiring 1231 2028. Is there a second? So, I'll second that. >> Okay. Uh, the motion's been made and seconded. Any council discussion?
>> I'm sorry, Mayor. This is for historic preservation. Oh, I'm sorry. >> Oh, you said environmental. I'm sorry. >> You said environmental. >> No, I originally said environmental and then we couldn't agree on what the procedure for environmental is. So, I moved on to historic preservation. Well, the historic preservation, you had the same issue.
>> And shade tree. >> No. and alternates for the land use for >> you could probably move VMAC. >> Well, let's let's go. I mean it. We have open space advisory committee.
We have one person. I move Larry Raph for a term expiring 1231 2028. >> Second. >> Any discussion? All those in uh we'll do a roll call. >> Councilwoman Holland. Yes. Councilwoman
McGrath. Yes. >> Councilman Roman. >> Yes. >> Deputy Mayor Moy. >> Mayor Cambero. >> Yes. >> All right. Larry Graph's appointment is approve 5. >> Okay. All right. And moving down to the
I think it was VMAC had one applicant as well. Um, I will move the following four individuals be reappointed for terms ending 1231 2022. Colin Bole, Carolyn Moy, Marina Mccel,
and Tim Schmidt. Is there a second? Second. >> I'm sorry. Okay, he's getting appointed. >> These are the four VMAC members. Any council discussion? If >> we call the role on those four. Yes.
>> I'm sorry. I'm on my roster for BME though I have Mr. Schmidt's appointment. He was already appointed. His appointment ends 12 3127. And I think there's an open Mr. Day resigned. There's an open seat. Um Okay. Expiring.
>> Mr. Schmidt was in the uh >> in the list of in the >> Oh, so there was confusion. >> I'm sorry. He's also on the roster, too. We did appoint him. That's why we're >> So there's no openings. >> Yes, there is. There is one opening. Mr. Day resigned. Did not want to be
reappointed. >> Okay. Well, I would still move Mr. Schmidt to have a term expiring 1231 of 2028 and will leave the 27 term. >> We already you already did appoint Mr. Schmidt. >> He's just appointing him for the longer term though. >> The longer term. Okay.
>> So, we'll have an open full term. >> Yeah. >> No. Um, sorry. They're all Gotcha. >> Okay. >> All right. And going back to
to the township of Attorney on the Environmental Commission. Our code is I just pulled up the code and it is the the mayor appoints the commission and the council appoints alternates. And this is for the environmental commission.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there's a state statute that I refer to, but you have to do an analysis as to whether or not it's an administrative or policy function. Um, and there's also an ordinance that the council passed a long time ago that I don't think was totally uh put through
the zoning uh book um when Mr. Kavala was the manager that said that the reference of mayor should be changed to manager for appointments based upon the statute. >> That was yes that was like part of the but I have the statute
board to the council. >> We I we revised that. Didn't we pass an ordinance to revise that back to to take it away from the manager because didn't Joe Dearco move that back? >> I think you're right. >> Yeah, we had we we passed an ordinance
to put it back in the in the governing body's hands. We actually moved it from manager back to mayor >> under the ARO administration because I think it was Councilman Holland brought it up. >> That might be the case. I don't know that. I don't recall that. No, we just I
um I think >> I think it just makes sense to just come back at a subsequent meeting after you've had an opportunity to review the records and provide the advice >> statute. I just wanted to >> but the clerk posed the question. So I
have provided an an opinion as to the weighing of the administrative versus the policymaking decisions of each of the she asked a question for five different boards zoning environmental historical planning board and shade tree
zoning is made by the governing body environmental commission because the manager historic preservations the manager planning board followed the ordinance because the ordinance is correct. The mayor has some, you know, the council has some. And then the shade commission is again followed the township code where it says the township
manager makes the appointment. >> Yeah. Well, we're just going to have to table these and and discuss them another time, but I that was certainly not we'll have to look into it. Yep. >> Um, may we discuss the multicultural committee?
We have the two high school students that we can put on. >> Yes, the two high school students um that we have to put on and then the reappoint of Mr. Penelli, Mr. Baja and Miss Shavalier who all very much participating members. >> Okay. I just have to Did we not have any
other applicants for that? >> We have two applicants. >> Yeah, we have >> two applicants are the high school students. Yep. >> Yes. Where we have openings. >> So, did you want to move those? >> Yes. I would like to make a motion and move those five individuals.
>> Okay. I'll second that. >> So, it'll be Mr. Pimpanelli, uh, Mr. Vadia, uh, Miss Shiovalier, Alisa Pena, and Sen AOF. >> For what terms or terms?
>> Uh, the >> adult members are 1231 2028 >> and the high school members are 1231 2026. >> I'm sorry. Who's the second high school member? >> Silene Aoff. >> Yep. Two high school students.
>> Okay. Yep. >> Because they have one-year terms or the terms expire at graduation. >> Okay. >> So, we make a motion. We second. >> Yep. Is there any council discussion?
>> Hear none. Madam clerk, would you call the role on those? >> One second. I'm just I'm so behind what you guys are doing. Um, Councilwoman Holland, >> yes. >> Councilwoman McGrath, >> yes. >> Councilman Roman, >> yes. >> Deputy Mayor Mackoy, >> yes.
>> Mayor Tambboro, >> yes. >> Um, those appointments are made. I have I'm going to go back. I'm sorry. I was writing something else. And uh as the mayor's appointment, my alternate for the library board is Laura
Desai. Just gonna >> I >> uh green team. >> I thought we could make that in >> green team. We had we had two applicants. We had more applicants than uh than open positions. Um
the mayor's appointment, the mayor's um designate follows the mayor's term. >> Oh, so we have to wait until Well, it'll be my she'll be my designate until the next mayor is chosen on the uh the 19th
of January. Oh, >> because right now her >> her term expired. So we have to point her for 19 days. >> Um >> understood.
>> So for the next n for the first 19 days of January, Lord Desai is the mayor's the mayor's alternate to the planning to the uh >> uh library board. the rent for. Okay, we do have uh nope, can't do the
rent board either. So, this point I think we've made all the appointments that are not uh contested or not being reviewed by the town of attorney at this point. Okay. All right. Do I hear a motion to do we
have any other close session items? >> Two two brief items. >> Okay. >> So, we will be going into close session. Any official action this time around? >> No. >> Nope. Okay. Have a nice start.