##VIDEO ID:zAlRUEgXAfs## okay uh good evening everybody and welcome to this regular planning board meeting on January 23rd 2025 Madame secretary can you please take role Miss Parker absent Mr KF here Mr Lily absent Mr Hyman here Mr coody here Mr deal here councilman Roman Deputy Manor oan here mayor T here Vice chair freshy here chair Pearson here board attorney missa here zoning officer cathine me here and I'm here all right it's wonderful can everybody stand and join me for the pledge of Alle I pledge Ali to the of the United States America to the for it stands one nation God indivisible andice thank you um can you please read the open public meeting act the notice requirements of the open public meetings act have been satisfied with respect to the meetings of the township of Verona planning board which is being held in person in the ballroom of the the Verona Community Center located at 880 Bloomfield Avenue Verona the time and date of this meeting were included in the annual meeting notice posted in the community center and sent to the official newspaper of the township the Verona Cedar Grove times at least 48 Hours preceding the start time of this meeting the agenda and instructions on how to comment will be provided at the appropriate time all meetings are recorded those wishing to speak during any public comment period should only provide their name and municipality three addresses are not required please be advised that should a member of the public choose to State their address it will not be reacted from this recording thank you um at this time I will open public participation for anybody that would like to make a comment or ask a question um yeah oh yeah um if seeing none I will close uh public participation thank you um has everybody we're moving on to approval of minutes has everybody that was present at the October 22nd 2024 meeting received and read through meeting minutes I'll move okay I'll move them second mayor tamboro moves them Vice chair fresy seconds all members that were at the meeting on the date please vote to approve I I we have okay anybody that does not approve and anybody who needs to abstain I'm abstaining I am abstaining okay so we have two abstentions and three three extensions the motion the minutes passed um we don't have a consistency determination this evening we do have two resolutions resolution 20251 appointing um resolution appointing Caitlyn K Kester as secretary to the planning board can I get a motion to appoint Caitlyn as our secretary motion Mr hman makes a motion seconded by the mayor uh roll call Mr katof yes Mr Lily no oh Mr Heyman yes Mr yes Mr de yes councilman Roman absent Deputy manager O Sullivan yes mayor tber yes Vice Sheriff fresy yes Sheriff Pearson yes motion passes second is to appoint uh planning uh appointment of our profor planner who happens to be here this evening in resolution 20 2502 can I get a motion to appoint s move doc moves second seconded by Mr Heyman can we get a roll call please Mr tza yes Mr Hyman yes Mr kudy yes Mr deal yesy mayag open yes mayor tber yes byce shair freshy yes Sher Pearson yes motion passes thank you everyone oh thank you um next on the agenda um we don't necessarily have a subcommittee update but I would like the deputy manager Mr Sullivan to give a quick wrap on uh what goes on with our affordable housing because that's what we're working on so please sure at the uh mayor and council meeting uh Monday evening uh the council uh passed a resolution on the fourth round uh declaratory number for the fourth round affordable housing uh requirement that was a resolution that was required to be passed by January 31st um the council uh consulted with with uh the affordable housing planner and there was um an adjustment made from the uh initial perspective need of 173 units uh presented by the DCA uh there was um Parcels that were omitted from the state's calculation due to uh some state level data not matching up with uh local Rossi and open space data by the township um so we did take an adjustment to a prospective need of 149 units uh at this time uh we have until the end of February for uh uh to let a period of time pass for potential directors to file objections uh we will begin meeting with the uh the master plan subcommittee to review the next steps that are um before the planning board at this point okay yeah and we're meeting sorry I'm we have a master plan subcommittee meeting on uh February 5th um at which time we'll that you know we're also working on the element so some of the necessary data coming in from the decisions of the council need to be plugged into uh the element but I'm hoping that um that element is underway and getting written as we speak so that the subcommittee has something to read and a draft to chuon soon right the the just kind of further what the the resolution that was passed by the mayor and Council the um the process allows the township to make further adjustments on that um adopted um development need based upon um vacant land analysis uh and there was additional um language within the resolution which identifies that uh based upon a current vacant land analysis the uh the the township um believes that the prospective need is uh could potentially be reduced as as low as 66 uh there is a floor minimum of 25% of our 149 unit perspective need but um at this point the the township would be in uh and plan War would be in the the next phase of continuing to assess that vacant land that analysis and all the tools that are available to the township uh during this next phase okay does anybody have any questions for the deputy manager soon to be the manager I'm really just recalling rightly but isn't there some like planned legislation that might affect uh uh the affordable housing and sort of reinstate some sort of uh color or administrative unit and take it out of the Courts last March this is what we're working on now this is what we're working on now the legislation is out okay so the so then this is in response to it okay thank any other questions okay if there're seeing no questions then we can um thank you so much sorry okay was so the 149 units and you're saying that there's a potential based on open space or or whatever other that might be for it to be reduced to 66 so the differ the the perspective need for the township uh is 149 units uh the realistic development potential is going to be based upon a number of factors which one of which be consideration of a vacant land analysis based upon vacant land that is available for development within the township so there is uh an assessment that the township will continue to be going through with our affordable housing plan ER and affordable housing council with the master plan subcommittee and we will be reviewing uh what that realistic development potential should be for our housing element it uh it cannot be less than 25% of our perspective need so it cannot be less than 25% of the 149 units that we've declared um currently based upon vacant land analysis that's been underway by the affordable housing planner uh do believe it it um is currently at 66 but that is um uh a work in process in in Pro in progress and we'll continue to work with planner portal Housing Council and the planning board in reviewing that as part of our housing element thank you um if there are no further questions we can get on to new business and I would like to um hand the meeting over to San this is a preliminary investigation to to to determine if block 708 Lot 1 also known as 383 Bloomfield Avenue but it goes by 377 Bloomfield Avenue sometimes um qualifies for designation as a non- condemnation area in need of Redevelopment in accordance with NJ sa 40a colon 12a blah blah blah resolution 2024 147 was sent to us by the Verna Town Council asking us to undertake um a review of this property so with that thank you s and please show us the way thank you thank you everybody you can hear me right so uh can you move your mic a little closer okay thank you and I thought I was a loud mouth so um so good evening everyone so before we again I'd just like to uh give you uh some background information so this area in need of Redevelopment investigation it is governed by uh What uh we call the alhl which is the local Redevelopment and Housing law um you know and to quote uh our board chair njsa 48 blah blah blah so um why does one do R development so um one does excuse me s yes can you introduce your uh oh have to your colleague please no can you introduce your colleague please oh yes um this is ldza Cam major um staff planner at h2m thank you to meet you all we just want to say it's nice for her to be here it's nice to see her you just didn't give us that chance oh I'm sorry I'm going straight to business um so um why does one do rment so uh when conventional zoning uh doesn't bring out Reit ization um Redevelopment is a tool that the state has given us and the goal of that is to stimulate change have Economic Development it's a proactive process um you know you develop a vision for your community or areas in your community and uh it allow allows us to prepare what we call as a Redevelopment plan which although it's a plan it's not really what we did three year two years ago a master plan this is more uh um I would say an amalgamation of a master plan and a ordinance so um you know so but it uh allows you to prepare a Redevelopment plan which also allows more flexibility uh municipality has better control of development outcomes and also this statute um offers uh the municipality an opportunity uh to Grant um say long-term tax abatements um negotiate development priorities construction phasing improvements dedications Etc and this is just generic information nothing to do with what we are doing uh this evening just to give you all a background so as uh Madam chair said um the governing uh body adopted resolution 20 2447 that authorized the study and mandated that any Area Redevelopment area design a would be non- condemnation it's required by law to have that declared when you write the resolution now what that means is that there will be no eminent domain or involuntary takings so any interested deapa would need to negotiate with property owners um so what is the read weapon process so first the township committee uh has the authority and they authorize a planning board by resolution to conduct uh the area need uh study so which is the resolution I uh we've been talking about and then the planning board or the consultant um conducts the study to determine if the area meets the statutory criteria which is the h2m report and then we are at the third step where um at a duly noticed planning board hearing and there they have all these requirements two notices uh one 10 days prior uh and they have the the first one has to be at a separate um uh in a on a separate week we've conducted all of that and here we are today to present this now based on how this evening goes the planning board makes a recommendation to the governing body uh to designate or not the study area but I want everyone to keep in mind that this is not subjective uh the Redevelopment investigations um need I need to provide evidentiary support um and everything is Contin uh everything has to relate to the specific criteria which I will um discuss as we move along then uh the governing body can either accept your uh recommendation or um may even reject your recommendation but if they do accept your recommendation then the council can designate the a Redevelopment area by resolution so um the Redevelopment process is a it's a three-step process and we are in step one which is conducting the area in need of Redevelopment study the next phase would be once it gets designated as I mentioned in the prior slide um then you can prepare and adopt a Redevelopment plan and then should that happen the third step is um uh a reder uh or you know either there'll be a reder or work with the existing Property Owners to actually Implement that plan and um the role that you would have as a planning board would be typical where somebody as for the zoning ordinance comes with a s plan approval it's it's pretty much the same uh thing and that's how the plan gets implemented um so now going back to the study area everybody's familiar with it um it's the Hill Crest Farms property which is identified as uh block 7 108 Lot 1 it contains an area of approximately 1.26 Acres it's a corner lot at the South uh I think Southeast corner of Bloomfield Avenue and Park Avenue and um it's um it's interesting if you look at the site and I walked it a few times there's a gradual drop in the grade um from the northeast corner which is um which is I don't um I can't uh which is uh near the apartment complex and goes downwards in the southwest corner uh near the edge of the property on uh Park Avenue and uh the uses in the proximity everybody's familiar with it but I just want to for record um uh mention what's around it is uh a typical uh combination of multif family residential to the South single family to the east uh commercial to the North and the West along Bloomfield Avenue so and the land uses or what the zoning is um it is in the uh Township Etc extended Town Center Zone and the surrounding uh zones are uh TC Zone to the West uh and uh Northwest Etc to the north which is in pink uh the R50 single family Zone to the West which is in uh that shade of light green uh it's yellowish green and uh what's in orange are the multifam A1 uh to the east and south um so next is um I would like to repeat and I know I did a similar presentation s months ago but I want to refresh everyone's memory um that uh this is what the Redevelopment criteria is so there are um eight Criterion uh as per the lrhl the as per the Redevelopment La uh law and I'm just going to summarize it so CR um the the way the statutes read is for any property um to be designated or qualified to be designated as an area in need of Redevelopment they need to satisfy just one Criterion and they are as follows um so Criterion a which is build it's you look at the buildings if they have deteriorated or fallen into a state of disrepair that people cannot inhabit them that's one Criterion the second one is vacant or abandoned commercial and industrial buildings or conditions that have made them fall into disrepair the third Criterion is land that is owned by either public agencies or bacon unimproved land that has remained so for 10 years um the fourth is areas with buildings and improvements that are dilapidated obsolete overcrowded faulty arrangement um deletrius land uses um Criterion e is um what they call conditions of title and ownership so basically um there's a growing lack or total lack of proper utilization which is caused by multiple diverse ownership condition of titles property tax leans or what have you um which impede land assemblage or discourage the undertaking of improvements uh resulting in a stagnant and unproductive condition of land um f is any land over 5 Acres that has uh been uh subject to destroyed due to farm storm cyclone the buildings or the properties therein um that then they satisfy that Criterion uh Criterion G is very specific um any uh Enterprise zones that have been designated as such as for uh the New Jersey Urban Enterprise Zones Act uh the final one what we call a smart growth planning um its designation of the delate delineated area which is consistent with uh smart growth planning principles um now this Criterion by itself has no standing uh but it can be used with one um any one uh from a to G so but it's still there in the statutes and nobody um uses it because how are you going to have enough evidence uh regarding that right so anyway so um typical to these studies we did a master plan uh analysis you know everybody's familiar with the master plan and some of the goals and recommendations that are um that apply to this area U which was written in the master plan was promoting growth in appropriate areas that meet current and future land use Trends to ensure zoning District regulations and land uses aligned with the Township's development goals and continue to ensure uh Bloomfield Avenue is a vibrant and attractive downtown and to maintain attractive and thriving businesses and Commercial districts so we also looked at the state plan um which again it's uh it's um it doesn't have much weightage but it's a guiding document and one of the things is as I mentioned the smart uh growth um it it you look at smart growth based on uh areas that are designated by the state plan and the study area is in a pa1 area which is a location that is consistent with the smart growth planning principles and the intent of this area is to provide for much of the state's future Redevelopment revitalization um and promoting growth and um the state development and Redevelopment plan of 2025 which hasn't been officially adopted yet um also has similar goals and um to revitalize and reenter the states uh underutilized devap areas and to promote economic growth that benefits all residents so uh we did a study area analysis and this area is already designated as an area in need of Rehabilitation it's located on the main Bloomfield Avenue Corridor it's within the ETC Zone and it borders the TC zone so it's kind of like the area sort of links the two zones together and it's kind of a Gateway into the TC Zone and the uh read weapon designation as I mentioned is aligned with the Township's planning goals um we also looked at uh you know when you look at smart growth you also want to look at what are the transportation options and we've studied this extensively during our master plan process but just to remind everyone that it's you know it's a corner lot um which is bounded by the eastbound side of Bloomfield Avenue which is a county roadway that connects um multiple municipalities um in SX County um also public transportation is provided via the New Jersey um Transit 29 line uh which has stops along Bloomfield and also it's around half a half a mile away from uh the New Jersey Transit 11 bus stop which is located at the corner of Pompton and and Claremont so um in a read weapon plan We Begin by conducting a property analysis so what do what does one do you look at tax maps assessment request the township to provide us with assessment records we look at accident reports any crime data fire department code violations um and I've mentioned all of that we look at the DP nonn contaminated sites information um we look at obviously the zoning plan and zoning ordinance so that's um and then the most important thing uh also is to conduct a field visit so we conducted a field visit on September 11 2024 that's where all the photographs were taken so it's not um snow uh clad as it today um so again this is block 78 lot one um so it contains that principal structure which is that Barn like uh structure uh which is located in the Northwest early Corner uh along Bloomfield and the front half of the building is characterized by an asphalt parking lot which is surrounds the building is pretty much covers the majority of the of the property and to the rear of the commercial building attached to it is a large Greenhouse which is used to display plants and other garden products and then the rear half of the building is uh rear half of the pro property I'm sorry is characterized by gravel and bare soil ground cover and contains several accessory structures and I've tried to cover all of them in my um report and I will be sharing um a few during this presentation um there's also um a one story five door garage it's used for um storage of contractor materials and um chemicals and then the parking lot in the front of the property has three Ingress and egress points along Bloomfield Avenue there's an access Drive in front of the garage uh the five car garage that leads uh to um Park Avenue and the rear yard contains around four Standalone green houses and one uh wooden story building with an attached Greenhouse a large trailer a small wood uh wood frame um and so on and so forth um so again we analyzed it looked at all the records and it's my professional um opinion that this meets Criterion D and um it's difficult to tell unless you walk the site right uh because if you look at it from Bloomfield Avenue it um it pretty much you see an attractive Barn Building but as you move in uh that's when you see uh challenges with the site design um and in this case um this Criterion focuses on site improvements and addresses how the site functions in terms of the layout and overall design and in general properties that meet this Criterion are being used in a manner which is not consistent with modern land use planning standards and practices so um these are a few photographs um and uh the one to the top left is um as I mentioned earlier uh when you come in from Bloomfield there are three Ingress and egress uh uh points which are not really clearly defined but this picture shows uh the two igis uh points there's no signage indicating the direction of circulation the parking is pretty halfhazard it's undefined and there's no differenciation between the access drive and the parking spaces and typically with you when you have large uh um I would say products coming in you know loading area is pretty essential and you know when you look at the bottom left um this was when we went on site saw a tractor trailer parked outside which kind of sort of blocks the Ingress and egress so basically there's no separate loading area for delivery vehicles on the property and then the bottom right shows the Ingress and egress point along uh Park Avenue uh which uh again it um you know uh the driveway begins in the parking lot that is accessed from Bloomfield and then turns around and meets uh Park Avenue um so uh the image to the top left is um the view of the third Ingress and egress point along Bloomfield Avenue and this access drive and parking area is on the Eastern side uh of the large wood perula that splits the um front parking lot into two um again these parking um spaces are undefined um and the top right view is uh uh is the view of the property from Park Avenue it's from the rear of the stand alone plann uh dis display area with the wood trellis it's looking towards Park Avenue and the driveway to the right um you know just right here um that leads back to to here this driveway and the bottom right is a photo uh the bottom right is a photo bottom left sorry is a photo of the Ingress egress um Al Long Park uh Avenue and uh to the right is the view of the rear yard with the glass greenhous and a fiveo garage that I just mentioned which is to the back of the main Barn Building and and it if you uh look and it's it's probably clearer uh in in the report but this goes into the backyard uh which uh contains an assortment of green houses a shed a trailer storage materials etc etc um this is uh the first picture to the left um as you can see um it's behind the park cars looking towards Park Avenue and then uh on the other side so behind that garage um is the view that you see in the photo to the uh top right um it looks towards the southeasterly portion of the rear property where I mentioned there was an assortment of green houses garages um not garage I'm sorry green houses sheds uh trailer Etc and if um this is a clearer view uh to the uh bottom left of the um rear portion of the uh garage where you'd see there's uh construction Dey and then a little further down it's just like uh vehicles are just parked randomly and um you know it shows basically uh open storage debris and uh cars parked and P pellets I believe on this side um if you look at this this is the greenhouse which has been around uh for a pretty long time and it shows visible signs of deterioration um the view of the uh glass panel to the east uh it's you know this is all to the S um just south of that uh porola that uh we saw and um it also shows um the shed I was talking about uh right here and the green hous is in the rear uh portion and portion of that parking lot which is approximate to the greenhouse uh it showed signs of it shows signs of decline with crack pavement pot holes uh so now this is the rear of the uh wood frame building and this is to the so all the way to the back is the rear property line and you know this basically shows how just the green how it's like it's it's everything is in a decrit condition you know informal storage of building materials gardening materials accumulation of dirt and just um overall lack of Maintenance uh this is uh view of the southwestern Corner uh which is the lowest point uh from the highest which is along Bloomfield Avenue um and it appears that you know I I tried to capture this but it appears that the water has eroded a channel into the gravel and soil over time um and um there's uh to the bottom right you'll see there's just one storm water drain on the property which is partially obscured by junk and equipment and um based on a discussion with the property owner this area floods periodically due to insufficient drainage um these are more views of the greenhouse in the southwestern corner and again it's a consistent uh theme of thrash and Equipment stored on the side uh bottom left uh is a view towards the southeasterly portion of the pro prop Y which shows the two green houses uh in the background and it's again strown with uh debris um same here uh to the uh bottom right which is the view towards the southernly property line showing the area between the three green houses to the rear um so all these photos show uh the view of a on story wood frame building with attached Greenhouse to the rear um which you can see in the bottom left uh partially and you can see on the top right as well and um you know on site visit we had conversations with the property owner and uh who let us know that the structure is one of the original ones on the property and um predates many of the existing structure it had significant deterioration the wooden shingle siding is Warped and rotting the roof of the structure seems to be sagging the exterior paint has peeled to expose bare wood the window panes are as you can see are either missing uh or boarded up and um again W wooden palets junk and Equipment have been impr improp improperly stored around it um as you go further the rear of the wood frame building also shows lack of Maintenance um and improperly stored materials vehicles um a boat is parked in front of a trailer along the easterly side uh property line and then the grassy area to the rear of the structure is overgrown which is STP middle um the top right uh shows the trailer which is located to the um almost along the easterly property line it's to the almost to the rear uh of the property and it's set back uh based on just our you know when we went on site visit about 2 ft from the property line and is in a derel condition the roof has coll collapsed uh below middle and animal traps uh indicate that perhaps rodents or raccoons may be an issue uh in this part of the property so based on discussion with the property owner it appears that this trailer has been on the property since 1985 and they contined to use it as storage so finally what is the Redevelopment Criterion um so the review of the existing conditions um uh as depicted in the photographs helps support the determination that the study area is El eligible to satisfy the D Criterion due to the obsolesence in building and site design and as I mentioned earlier that this Criterion focuses on the accessory buildings as well as site improvements and addresses how the site functions in terms of layout and overall design and more specifically this condition was satisfied due to the deterioration of the structures on the property um the OBS obsolescence of the site layout for Sight circulation the deletrius land use overcrowding and excessive coverage now although the principal structure is in a good condition uh the rest of the property which is really the majority of the property um uh and the accessory structures there are in a poor condition and exhibit a lack of Maintenance and the site and accessory buildings uh have ongoing maintenance uh issues which you know it's evident through these photographs and based on um examining them on our uh field visit so those are the reasons why um it's my professional opinion that it meets the D Criterion but it's also meets the age Criterion because it's in a pa1 area which is as per the state plan area uh allocated uh or you know uh for for redevelopment and so it has those attributes which will permit uh this kind of smart growth development that is advocated by the state plan and it's my professional opinion that Redevelopment of this area is necessary to correct the concerns of safety welfare and the detriment opped to the safety and health of the community so in uh in some in in conclusion um I would recommend to the board to designate the property as an area in need of Redevelopment a non- condemnation area in need of development and that's it from me thank you thank you s um I would like to open it up to any questions that the board may have we've been through this before so I think you guys are getting good at this I do have one question sure um just about the contents of the two 550 gallon underground storage tanks MH um I I understand that the tanks are going to be removed that is correct um I just I know that this is getting ahead of things but just out of curiosity were was it discussed if whether any testing had happened to make sure that the tanks didn't have leaks um we didn't discuss uh testing per I don't recall okay um but I do know that we had um and I want to make it um make it a point that I really appreciated the how forthcoming the owner was because you know when you when you've do when you've been doing this for a while um you know one big thought that comes is oh let's check if it's a non-contaminated site or let's look at the DP data um and we found nothing right um so that's why we were very curious um you know I wanted to be as thorough as possible so I reached out to the owner um and I asked them uh that do you have underground storage because typically that's what happens with these older uses and he mention that yes we do and our goal is to get that out um as soon as you know once they get into the Redevelopment process and I think they will have to do their due diligence they will have to um and you know you know this that um when when there's something like that they have to have an L lsrp so that's a part that that's you know the state requires us to do all of that so you know they call it like phase one assessment or what have you you so okay thank you I was just curious to know if any other further information came out about that no I all good any other questions yes I have a couple questions um you mentioned um flooding and the excessive impervious coverage when you spoke to the owner um during storm events is there significant um surface runoff going off the property oh I don't know on the top of my head I am sorry um and then you mentioned the block drainage uh you said there was only one storm TR yes and right there was just one on the southwestern you know the the end where it um near the um apartment complex on it's along Park Avenue so we actually walked the site to see that and um it's it's very natural if you look at even the Contours right it slopes from the southeast which is um on Bloomfield Avenue near the apartment complex all the way towards Park Avenue so that's it's it's a gradual slope which is very visible when you walk the site um and then your report mentioned it you did a you know comprehensive review of records and hold the police records for it um were able to glean any details with respect to all of those uh events that were long by PD you know a lot of them were traffic incidents were related to onsite because I do know circulation there is an issue especially when I get busy have there is there any not that I know of no that we were looking for that actually but we didn't um they were um and I I have it uh I think I have it written uh what all uh what all they were they were just um yeah there wasn't an accident mhm but that doesn't mean it won't happen no no I understand I mean we've I'm pretty sure everybody's been there especially when it's busy it is uh right I think it's a very difficult site to navigate it definitely is and just curious if the record kind to worn out our own personal experiences so there you know and I just want to also clarify one thing that you know typically when we do this Redevelopment investigations we go uh F just go back to like 5 years right we don't go back Beyond so who knows um and then lastly you mentioned environmental contamination can you just and you know you did speak about the uh uh chemicals on site and the uh tanks but aside from that with your conversations with the owner can you give a little bit more detail about what the environmental risks are with respect we didn't so so I want to make it clear I didn't ask him what the risk was because that would be hery right the only reason why I even contacted the whole uh the uh property owner was because I couldn't find anything in the K kce uh you know data Miner so I was just curious like do not have underground storage tanks because it's been you know and that's when he came forthcoming and neither am I an lsrp and nor is this you know so if somebody does a report it's this as you say secondary information that we review so I just wanted to add that to understand that you know from our end we try to vet this very thoroughly thank you saying the structure in the northwest corner the the like house Barn I mean I think it's relatively new and can you just make any comments on on some of the more the details of that structure I'm sorry the structure in the northwest corner of the property the barn it's yeah it's it's relatively new so we didn't and that's why I wrote that that structure would not qualify at all um as a you know it does not qualify but that's a small portion of the site the rest of the site qualifies so so if it doesn't qualify then it wouldn't be included in the plan the plan has got nothing to do with this um when you so um let me go back to the Criterion that um I I was uh speaking about um bear with me for a [Music] second so when we do an investigation right we look at the buildings um so it doesn't satisfy Criterion a because the barn is in a good condition had the bond been in a bad condition or there were some deterior deterioration there then it would have satisfied criteria a as well as criteria D so um so I don't know if I'm explaining making myself clear do do you want more information so I guess I want to understand is that if the barn is is not right is in good condition how does that get factored into whatever is done at that site it it doesn't it it gets it gets factored into the overall the evaluation of the overall site so in my opinion um the because of one newer structure that's not in a dilapidated condition or doesn't as sense it on its own meet the criteria you're looking at that lot as a whole so it's not like it would be carved out and couldn't be touched or anything like that you're looking at in this case we're just doing um an analysis of one property so and and the the whole point is to look at it in in uh holistically right and it's I I forgot to mention this too and I've written that in the report um it doesn't matter one one um structure doesn't qualify the whole site does and the read weapon law also very clearly um States and I put that in uh I think uh what is it one of the pages but you know that um it's section three of the read and lawyer remember that that a Redevelopment area may include um land buildings or Improvement which of themselves are not detrimental but to the public health safety but the inclusion of which within the Redevelopment area is found necessary uh with or without changing the condition for the effective Redevelopment of the area of which they are part so in simple words um as uh Greg said um that you know first you look at it holistically and just because there's one structure one small structure in 1.26 acres it's probably like a 5,000 um square foot area um that by itself may not qualify but that it doesn't disqualify that and having that as a part of the Redevelopment area um pretty much um is necessary to um have effective Redevelopment I'd like to make a comment I I walked on the property and end of the this past summer and to say that some of it looks like a dump would be very kind uh it definitely is an area in need of Redevelopment uh whe whether you have one structure that's uh like the the building that they do most of the selling from uh that's in pretty good shape the rest of the property is I just can't believe it got to this that it got run down to this point T are we on comments or questions um question if you have questions if you have a comment you can add a comment instead and then we'll move on okay I mean if we're going to deliberate after we're getting some questions across yeah we're going to deliberate if there are more questions if there are no more questions then Tim would you like to add a comment for the board to consider yeah there you go there you go thanks yeah um thank you son um I will say as much as this was thorough and you know I've agree with other pieces of your work I find that uh this uh your statement that this is an area of need of Redevelopment is very much a reach and I'm not in the least convinced that this property is uh in need and I hope uh to uh even convince the board that that is the case and that in fact I think this property at least on the as far as the business its use and from the outside I quote you you know from the outside it doesn't look so bad has a certain bit of charm and adds to the personality and um it keeps a bit of uh uh history and charm to the town as well as a reprieve from all the development that we're doing here um I think you know you said yourself the primary structure is in good repair it's the main you know it's the building that stands out most I know you know the lit rotunda um or the you know the Weather Vein is um you know something I see and you know actually I I like seeing it um as I come up and down the Avenue um again you said you wouldn't know it from the outside so part of D yes there are dilapidated structures but you know the full um um language of D says that are detrimental to the safety Health morals or welfare of the community uh the you are pointing them out you know but some things say like the over overgrown vegetation the undefined parking you know that's a that's a day with a can of paint and a roller and and a weed whacker and that is something that can be uh cleaned up as far as all the other structures the property owner you know is on the you know should take better care of it but it's not a you know a harm to the welfare in in fact the traffic and whatnot is you know as I understand the thriving business so so uh it certainly would be even more traffic if it was uh run over and replaced with a three-story uh you know condo with any units um the statement that this is a non- condemnation says you know that the property owner uh you know has negotiation rights am I correct yes so where's the property owner tonight to either say yeah I agree I you know I I'd like to hear from them I don't have them here well there's a representative here but I'm not sure what you're oh I'm saying you know if you know something would sway me differently is if the property owner agreed that this is an area need of Redevelopment and so is that because is there you know I I I can tell you the property owner does agree that it's an area need of Redevelopment as San had said you know cooperated with San as San did the study um there is an Council here for the property owner um okay but that's that's not really a criteria uh um the condominium is I mean the condominium the condemnation um is just a um a part of the statute that um if the governing body decides that the condemnation power will not be included then that simply has to be determined in the beginning because then a property owner often times we do areas in need of Redevelopment for multiple properties right and it might be six of the seven Property Owners if we did seven might want an area to be in re an designated an area in need of Redevelopment the seventh owner might not if that's the case then if condeming if said if condemnation is left as an option and then you condemn that property owner's property in order to have construct it U um whatever on all seven Lots contiguous or whatever it's not an issue here so right right okay no that's good and and to that extent there might be incentive for and I don't blame a property owner for you if there's incentive to sell and and this this helps the cause to hop on that so then I will take it act actually you know on your guidance here of like on the Merit on its own and so the like aside from you know slopping on the accessory structures which I would say are not inappropriate it's a hillross Farms it's a you know it's a garden store uh you know we we we expect a certain amount of uh you know like a a a barn or a rural setting um have you walked it I bought my Christmas tree there uh have you walked the site I have not walked the whole site right if you you know you have the right to walk the site when we're when it's under consideration and you probably could have gotten a free tour too sure sure but I'm just saying I think the pictures were pretty pretty well representative but it's different when you walk it it it becomes those buildings are entrenched on that site they're they've been there for since the some of them since the 50s sure if not before that um so we're talking 75 years um some of those green houses I I think that's something that that one little piece is missing from your overall um opinion here is that you didn't go look for yourself you're the guy that usually does that so I'm kind of surprised but yeah yeah um I missed this one so then you know at the face value of this which uh uh Greg should I do I need to walk aight no I think I mean no because I think there's other criteria too Tim like um you know s talked about smart growth principles um right right now and that was I think criteria H like right now you have a garden center that is not in great shape in the extended town center and it's not really consistent with our master plan nor is it consistent with smart growth principles so if you agree with that then that is enough for you to say okay it meets the criteria we're not here to say whether you like it or not of course right and you've always been you know totally you know WR down in the middle and and open-minded and everything else so it's not just oh it's not dilapidated um it's well wait a minute smart growth and or what does our master plan say and and you know is is there a better opportunity there for something else and allow me you know to you know remain it consistent thank you for pointing that out and I will say you know I smart growth is being you know selected I I you know I see a value to this property as it is as a reprieve to the all the other work that we're doing it's a it's a break in essentially the the buildup and um I don't see it as a as a public harm on De I get it and I you know I I will walk it after the fact and either lament or or stand by but I I want you all to consider you know the thoughtfulness here may I recommend you walk it and walk along the southern property line the Eastern property line and you will understand I it's my license on on the line when I write these studies so I have to be very thorough I I can't just try to reach um if if I as a professional if I feel this doesn't meet the criteria no matter what Verona or the property owner wants to pay me I wouldn't because my integrity and my ability as a planner is on the line and it is not subjective I I respect you know my my descent is with all respect to the thoroughness of of your work um uh apparently I have a good reputation with GRE and that is on the line here and I want to keep that so uh no I mean it I'm I'm you know that's my it's my take on this as a member of this board um and um I've made my pece thank you thank you any other comments from any the other members I mean maybe to build on Tim's comment around the harms you know around the the harms or the whatever um you know for example you list at the trailer that's there and that's been there for quite a long time couldn't the owners just have removed that trailer and improved the property on their own I'm sorry what I don't understand so Tim was talking about how you know he doesn't feel that there's like guess substantial harms or damage based on the criteria for D and so we're saying that there's several dilapidated structures beyond their useful life on the property right so you pointed to the green houses you pointed to the trailers so to kind of build on what Tim is saying for example the trailer the owners could have removed that right they didn't have to leave it there so like isn't that like a self-inflicted harm I I wouldn't call it a self inflicted harm um and when I when we are supposed to do these studies we don't go into why it's not removed or we look at what's existing and how based on the criteria it doesn't set satisfy now the trailer if I'm not mistaken has been around since um I think 1985 it's been around and you'll see many properties in the state which satisfy this criteria of had Redevelopment are are properties that are slowly deteriorating so could they have done that 20 years ago 30 years ago probably so could have many other property owners but people don't and that is why the state has this kind of a criteria for us to to basically bring an underutilized property uh back into the tax rules and make it viable so you know we are speculating they could have done this or the other and I'm I don't mean it in a disrespectful fashion I understand your question but I would say that they could have done many things but they don't as many properties in the state don't so Jeremy your your your question is a great question if there's a variance application um a self-imposed hardship is something that a board shouldn't consider if this were an application seeking you know an applicant seeking variance relief and you know the house is in disrepair and uh you know I want to be able to make the house beautify the house but oh by the way I need to you know add a mother daughter um that's something that the board wouldn't consider here this is from the the perspective is from the municipality Vision eyes so it's what is best for the municipality the impact on the property owner um is is really U not even secondary it really should not be considered you know okay right so what would happen if we if we would um not if the board doesn't doesn't agree with the assessment let's just say that what's what are the options there is no options I mean this this is a um pursuant to the statute the board's sole role here is to determine whether um the area in this case the one lot meets the criteria as an area in need of Redevelopment and had gone through um you know it would be up to the property owner then to seek variance relief or to seek a zoning change or something like that um if in fact the board found it doesn't meet the criteria can I just to add to that the board is making a recommendation to the council in this is it the final say or the council can then and ignore a negative uh recommendation no the board has to find has to meet criteria the um the governing body cannot over the the governing body even if you find this as an area need um and you make a recommendation please designate the final word is with the governing body but if we don't recommend then it correct it has to be upon the recommendation of the planning board otherwise the study would be you know meaningless if the board does not report to the to the governing body then the governing body can act but if the board reports negatively then the governing body cannot uh um you know cannot go forward with the Redevelopment plan and and most importantly um it is very much dependent on the um evidence which is the photographs and it's not just you cherry pick one or the other it's you look at it holistically collectively so uh it's I continue to reiterate it's my professional opinion that this meets Criterion D so just to go a little bit further so if if we vote that it doesn't meet the Criterion the criteria then what are based on the zoning what are the options for the owner without without variant whatever the permitted uses are in the extended Town Center I don't know what they are you know they're itemized in the zone code yeah and and that goes back to the point I made earlier um that re weapon is a tool that the state has given us when conventional zoning um doesn't work and in many cases it doesn't work and I you know it's very likely even in this particular case so you know in all of this discussion I I understand some of the sticking points that certain board members have brought up um we made a similar determination on a different site that had a great deal of pavement and oddly placed buildings a few months ago and it wasn't the the business that had been there an aluminum company had already closed and um so I I guess my my worry here is that you're enamored with the use on the site more than looking at the site I look we all are it's kind of like our hometown place where EV you know everybody in Verona goat so but the use of the site even though it's listed in here I understand that don't don't don't jump don't jump I understand that and it it it's not saying that the use is obsolete um or obsolescent it you have to read that it's one of the it's one of the possibilities that may exist on the site but that being said I think that what you've pointed to is that it's charming and we don't want it to change and I understand that and I feel that too believe me but that doesn't mean that that there's a standard that has to be upheld and a factual uh question being put to you sentimentality kind of has to take the backseat and that that's unfortunate but this is not a sub as subjective as say a site plan approval where there could be things about it that you just don't like and you can't vote Yes the there are things about this that you don't like but there's a few things that are categorically true and that's the UN so anyway that's all I'm going to say can we unpack that a little bit Yeah it I mean I don't want to get into an argument with not at all and I really don't want to but I'm telling you that there are if you read through D you can see that there's excessive land coverage dilus land use if you look in the back of the property which you haven't yet done um an obsolete layout any combination of these factors yes and and I'm just saying and with the smart growth thing that that is true it's along the Avenue there's a bus route and I'm just saying that these things are met and at the last meeting where we were determining this I did ask Greg if I had a sub if there was anything subjective about this if I didn't like it could I vote no and he looked at me and shook his head no just because you don't like something in this particular case you cannot vote now I don't know if you remember that but he told me I couldn't that's the same thing so I'm just I'm I'm done I will take and uh check my feelings as I've done before on these D's and hes and and um to make sure it's not sentiment and and I'm comparing the two that you know uh Mr diol has in front of in going over them and I I think I voted yes on that one and I agree with it as much as by the way I find that aluminum building it's mid-century modern it's very Charming but you know all the rest in the Maga is truly hits it and um there is no real use for that so mayor enough on my side I uh I figed throw my two sents in B the first is I I agree with s's um assessment of both d and H um and it's important to note that the the property owner has signaled their desire to develop this property and change what is currently on the property right so it's not going to remain a garden center um by in any way no matter what this board does that they would have the ability to um to do something within the permitted uses of the property I think that when you when you have this as an area in need of Redevelopment this invites a Redevelopment plan for the site and that benefits the municipality as well and that it gives the municipality the opportunity to really collaborate with the property owner to have something there that is a use that is beneficial to both the town and the property owner um and this actually provides us a a lot more leeway to have something on what is a prominent parcel of land at that intersection uh that I sit at every morning morning for 2 minutes because it's longest traffic late in Verona um it is it just is the longest traffic l in Verona um and it does that Redevelopment plan does give us more latitude to do this and you can use other properties that we have um approved this board and the council over the years have approved because those sites tend to be the ones that are more fitting the community's needs whereas properties that were not part of Redevelopment plan have gone to l ation um and often have not been the the kinds of properties that we would like to see in this town that are the most consistent with the character that we would like to see so I think when we look at the best interests of the municipality and this certainly falls into that that Redevelopment in addition to and I think that goes into the H piece that Sam brought up is what do we want the growth in our town to look like and this allows us to collaborate with the property owner on that and really do it in a smart manner rather than simply the property being turned over to a a retail um institution that may buy the property and and put an ugly you know the retail building on the corner with a parking lot you know it's could be something that we really you know don't want there uh this would provide that opportunity so I appreciate you hearing my thoughts um but that it is in the best inst of the municipality that we uh declare this an area need to revelop thank you madam chairman I I have a correction um I just checked the statute and it counts like an overturn it appears that the count now I'm not uh I've never participated in any procedure where this happened but um the statute is a little ambiguous but basically does not prevent a governing body from from ignoring the recommendation of the planning board um I mean that would be a governing body issue I think that uh you know they'd have to consider but um I was wrong in in what I said thank you okay um that was almost like a foni moment where Greg just his wrong all right um that shows m like only two people laughing I can't believe I did I know who f is I did too okay I'm old too um I think I think the uh people that agree have made their point and the people that are iffy and maybe don't agree have made their point so I think if there's no further Ado I think we can call for a vote um and a motion actually so Mr marara yes if somebody was to make a motion to find this property meets DN G H I added one um and maybe considered as an area in need of Redevelopment well the motion would be to recommend to the government that the area um meets the criteria of an area in re of area in need of Redevelopment um and more specifically because of DNH DNH so would somebody like to make that motion that Greg just said I will make that motion okay excuse me may I can I get a second I'll second the mayor seconds can we have a roll call vote Mr katf yes Mr H yes Mr coody no Mr Jal yes Deputy maner o svin yes Mr tamburo yes Vice shair freshy yes Sher Pearson yes the motion passes um Mr masara yes can you please work with Caitlyn to draft a resolution on the just a memorialization so that at the next meeting we can just pass that and sign but we will prior to that formally notify everybody in writing uh a memo of the determination yes yes so we can send the governing body a memo right um via email um to the mayor Jen Mr masara M and of course the manager be Greg do you want me to write it or ma'am do you want me to write it or who's going to write the memo um you're offering I'm happy to write it I'll right we'll do it that's fine yeah I just want to be sure yeah no that's why um before we close real quick question for the manager I'm just going to call you the manager I'm done um uh what are the what is the potential schedule for us to be updating the system in here so as to be able to bring a zoom meeting in live and all of that stuff do you have any idea we brief you could say six months from now we're including that in the budget in 2025 that'll be one of the the recommendations there are some offsetting um money that the township expects to help reduce the cost burden for the township so through that process it could be a six-month window potentially longer there's um some some budgetary timing that we have to line up first we would have had another member here tonight if there was the possibility for that person to zoom in he just didn't want to get everyone else sick so but he he he texted me and asked there's a there's some they do it at other I I know but there are certain requirements um that before we do that we'll have to make sure we follow okay because then you have the public and whether the public is invited by Zoom so if you're opening up to zoom we just have to make sure we comply I can't tell you off the top my okay what they are motion to Jour yeah good done thank you very much s you're welcome and thank you all you never