##VIDEO ID:SOKrfmOHrOU## e e e good evening it is now um 6:31 and I'd like to call the meeting of the park and W committee to order on January 22nd 2025 um it's standard practice to do a roll call at the beginning of each meeting so we'll go around and um state your name and we'll start over here with Terry Terry cope Mary Larson Amanda kill Jacob Paul and Jenna Smith all right next item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes um is there a motion to adopt the meeting minutes of December 16th 2024 so moved is there a second second um okay motion has been made and seconded um are there any edits no questions okay all in favor to approve I I opposed okay motion carries okay next item on the agenda is petitions proclamations suggestions or complaints from CI citizens committee members or staff um with that uh committee members do you have anything to report I just have a few questions um that I wanted to like Circle back on um last year we spoke a lot um in one of our meetings about um smoking in the Parks and um ordinances possible ordinances there are none currently and I just was wondering um if we were going to see that again or if something has been put through you know to the city council um in that respect uh to my knowledge it has not been brought to city council but that is something that we can work with our city clerk on to see if that's an ordinance that the city wants to adopt okay great and then um one other thing that I just wanted to mention um since I know we do have to report to city council is that we had a um 2024 2025 work plan created and um in that there was a meeting schedule and then with some suggested um meeting topics and just to in order to meet that it looks like we may have to um like add some topics to the the next few um winter meetings to um still um the plan discuss the plan yeah and and discuss potential um itemized things on that plan so I just didn't want us to lose sight of that right uh so we will Al be addressing this year's work plan and um while it is the anticipation that a work plan is something that we would be able to accomplish this year if there's things that are left unresolved those can be added to the work plan this year so when we discuss those things if there's things that we were unable to accomplish at last year's um meetings um then feel free to bring those up as topics to continue to pursue this year okay great anything else Amanda no those are my only two no I did have something I wanted to add and that is um a topic related to the increase in rates at the Victoria Rec Center that I've been hearing um comments and feedback from community members who are members and the increase in rates that went into effect January 1st um for people that are paying on an annual basis the rates went up 127% starting January 1st um so there's been a lot of conversation around members um both in person and online about that U major increase that happened U at the 1 of January um so I just wanted to throw that out there didn't know if any other committee members have heard chatter regarding the the rec center rates or not did you say it was7 um it's 110 from the family or from the um specific rates and um just to touch base on that one um the new newly uh addressed rates indicate um changes that were not um previously addressed so monthly rates had been increased um more over the past year years but then the yearly discount wasn't touched and it left um uh something that is unsustainable and so in order to be able to support support the facility um rates needed to be adjusted so that the increases in like monthly and things like that kind of trickled down and so unfortunately those um heavily discounted annual rates um were not something that were sustainable for the facility so it brought those up and if you looked at like overall like there was an increase across the board but some of the plan um were brought down some of them were brought up by a minuscule amount um and so the intention for these was to get it to a place where it is able to support the facility um because the recreation center is a fully self-sufficient facility it is not supported by any tax dollars um and so part of that was getting it to a place where we can actually afford to make the um needed maintenance and repairs as well as addressing any future improvements um and so um that was some of the changes that came by um and while the increase does seem quite High um there are some people that were paying anywhere between $5 to $10 a month um and just to kind of throw it out as a comparison that doesn't even cover the cost of one employees's hour for one hour um or salary for 1 hour and so if you can anticipate this is really difficult to maintain and so the city did have to make a decision that um we had to increase the rates in order to be able to sustain the facility and so unfortunately it did um adversely impact those that um had those heavily discounted rates um but we as a city did do a lot of research in comparison to other organizations um that had comparable facilities um rates for you know facilities that may be smaller than ours that are private um things like that so um this is something that as we move forward we'll be able to address some of the changes that are needed um and just for the record there is no intention on increasing these rates anytime soon this was to get us to the point where we needed to be to be able to financially support the facility I will point out that on an annual basis our adult rate is higher than both chasa and Mia and not compared to the um new rates there was rates for 2025 that was recently put out so as like a Victoria resident going to chasa would be higher um are you saying that chasa raised their rates in 2025 yes okay I have I've checked their website I did not see that in December yeah they didn't post it until a week in half 10 January okay okay all right thank you um uh Jenna do you have any information to provide the city an up City events news so two events that are coming up um we for any last minute people who want to partake um the royal ball is coming up on January 31st so this is a really fun um event for families to be able to come and enjoy there will be music dancing visits from princesses um a super fancy Gourmet Chick-fil-A dinner um but it'll be a fun time for a lot of people so I encourage anybody who has um you know kids that would enjoy that or if you just really want to come and be a princess you're welcome to come it's welcome for all ages um registration for that does close tonight so if you haven't done it yet um send the word um another thing that's coming up is we are doing our first ever senior Bingo Bash and so that is on Wednesday February 5th um from 10: to noon at the Victoria Recreation Center um we are accepting registrations online you can come in in person to the rec center and do it or we'll take people day of um so those are two fun things that are coming up all right thanks jna um there is no old business tonight so so we'll go right into our new business um we have one item on the agenda for tonight it's item 6.1 which is to review the sketch plat for the West Creek Village Residential development um and Jenna will be um leading us through this presentation all right so just as a reminder as we are reviewing these um there's no formal actions that we'll need to take tonight um but this process is um to allow you guys to assist in any um you know recommendations um as the city is considering um these new developments um so for the one that we're reviewing today um prior to getting into this presentation um just want to make note that this um is a revised um proposal sketch plot for this land so um as a committee um back in July we did review a proposal for this land from the same developer um but they came back they listen to our feedback they came back with a second proposal it's a different model the design is a little different um so if you hear some of the same language it's probably because we have discussed this land before um but um there will be key note key differences that I will indicate as we continue on uh but some of these images should look fairly familiar to you um so to kind of just start out um this is a pretty large plot of land um a little over 88 acres um and 37 or so of them are developable um if you can recall from the last time there is a significant portion of this land that is in uh Wetland area so that part is not developable um this is south of the marsh Lake Hunt Club and west of the newer developments over at hun uh hunterbrook and Marsh Hall and so this proposal um different than the last time includes um 13 single family homes and 148 multif family Town Homes which is a um slight decrease from the number of homes that they were presenting the last time for the Parkland dedication um lenar is proposing a253 acre Tot Lot um and then the calculations that are listed here are the requirements of our municipal code and so um if you take a look at these numbers these are the numbers that um the develop developer is required um by our um statutes to fulfill and so this 0.253 um acre Tot Lot would be taken out of this if that Tot Lot was accepted um and so you'll take a note at the single family and town home uh breakdown which comes to a total of either 4553 Acres or 478 um ,100 or some sort of combination there of so if we did accept the Tot Lot it would be the remainder of that would come out of um a monetary Parkland indication so for this sketch plat um you would have received the same image in your um agenda packet um but this one I um did a little bit more um outlining um in terms of where um these trails and the sidewalks and the Parkland is um so you'll see um the circled area is the Tot Lot um there's kind of a mockup if you look into the center of the the screen um and then you'll see the thicker lines those are the proposed uh bituminous Trails um so there is one on the north side of um the development along Creekside Lane which that one does connect to the trail that's coming out of Creekside Lane from the Marshall development and then the one on the South Side um would be connecting to um the street area that down there and then the thinner sidewalk or the thinner lines are the sidewalks that are proposed um for this facility so you'll see the one strip um throughout the development so for the trail and sidewalk connections um you'll notice that there are no sidewalks that are shown within the single family um portion of the development um or on the north side of Creekside Lane there are the 5 foot wide concrete sidewalks um shown throughout the the one side of the town home um sidewalks on both sides of the street are recommended for developments with density over or three units uh per acre and this one clearly exceeds that by being um 6.01 Acres or units per acre um for Trails there are the two that um I had previously indicated um one of them was a recommendation that we had had from the last time um connecting to that Creek Side and then the other one was an addition on the South Side um for crosswalks there are no crosswalks indicated in any of the plan so for the one that um accesses the street there's not a crosswalk that is proposed all right so to put it into perspective um for parks that are nearby um like the last time so the development is the one in blue um and then um towards the middle left of that blue development would be that small Tot Lot um and then the future developments would be um the Marshall one which is the one closest and then the next would be hunterbrook and then on the North side is the Lakeside Estates and the lake Town Park um and so there are uh parks within reasonable walking distance um that are fairly nearby this um location Jenna can you can you go back can I ask a question about the sidewalks so this slide yeah so I went back to the notes too from our um July 15th meeting so one of the big differences that I wrote down was that um in July there was the 8ft trail proposed on the south side of Creekside Lane but an additional 5- foot sidewalk on the north side of um Creekside Lane um so um do you know why the I just without I drove through the neighborhood at the time in July um and you mentioned that you know the the the 8ot wide Trail does connect to the existing neighborhood right there the but is there not one is there not a sidewalk then currently in the existing neighborhood on the North side correct as I um mentioned on that other side so up I wish this had can you see my cursor yeah yeah um so this is the single family home area and as it says on here there are no sidewalks in the single family por of the development okay but I just want to make sure it doesn't exting neighborhood yeah and then the existing neighborhood I just want to make sure that we don't have off to the side yeah that we don't have a trail that dead ends on Creek Side on creek side Sidewalk no well there might be if there is one on the North side but I can't recall exactly if there is the trail connects so they would be able to cross over to the trail to get here for sure but I'm not 100% sure I don't Rec call if there was a sidewalk in addition to the trail I'd be able to look that up and get back to you at a later date but okay I don't know off the top of see what you're saying Amanda if you've got a sidewalk in the other development and then it just stops there and and and I just and again I just looking back at our notes and in the first sketch plat there was a 5 foot sidewalk on North side of Creek Side so this is a difference that I just want to make sure that we are knowledgeable on um that looks like it's a similar plan previously where the it's not much of a street for the single family homes it's just that one little roundabout and then there's like driveways and then what what I know I with their town home density they are technically supposed to have sidewalks yep the recommendation on both sides the recommendation is that um they would have um side sidewalks on both sides of the street with this density and do the current town home areas next to it meet those recommendations that one's out of our hands now at this point because it's already been moved along so we need to focus on okay this one do you want to continue on Jenna and then open it up for questions actually I think that was it is that it so you guys are great why are they doing just a Tot Lot that is what they proposed we before remember they only proposed this Wetland area as their Parkland dedication and and it was not even accessible it was like behind just the the single family homes so we had all a that like no one could access it or enjoy it m um and um like we we had we had raised the same concerns lack of sidewalks throughout the proposed development and the indicated desire to have Trail connections um at the time we had expressed favor in accepting the cash fee for parkline dedications over the proposed Parkland dedicated as it was not you know really desirable it didn't even meet our needs or wants of open space for um these um neighborhoods or communities to enjoy um I think the tot L is seems a little underwhelming feel like that amount of den for both town homes and homes if they're this is area it feels like it should be a little bit more robust is it about a mile from less than West Village um so it's 0 two of a mile from where the marsh Hollow park development would be and then one thing um not not in attempt to sway your your opinions but um do know that if we get development Parkland or like if they dedicate Parkland then that's not money that would go towards development so um it's kind of one of those balancing acts of um do we want them to develop another or give us land for another park or do we want them to contribute towards the development of the parks that we have already been dedicated yeah because I good point that's like a f minute walk and we it's just undeveloped right now so there's not a park there no both those both those Parks closest are undeveloped right I mean I know the city council I looked at there um the council reviewed their first sketch plat too on um August 5th and the the council expressed concern about not having neighborhood amenities either so like there it's not like they have a community room or a community um pool like some neighborhoods have or or or whatnot so like right right now it's not like in some of the other sketch pads we have reviewed there's been other community amenities whether that be a dog park or a basketball court or something like that that's Community um maintained is that the right like HOA maintained yeah um terminology is there a schedule for those other two parks that's one um so for Marshall and hunterbrook we are going to at at a future meeting we're going to be talking about our new um public engagement policy that um will be rolling out eventually um but uh the goal is to have the uh public engagement this summer um to plan for the future development of it how do we feel in general so let's go down the list of these questions kind of in order and discuss those because we kind of been a little bit all over over um so if we talk about the Tot Lot um what feedback then related to the Tot Lot um um being the dedicated Parkland I think that's okay given that we'll need money for the nearby park I think but I would agree that there's not any other amen which is does seem problematic mhm for this density but yet it's not that far away from the another Park so that's where I get a little it like I don't know there's not much Green Space either or a high density um area can you go back to the this map um the other one where it shows where the Tot Lot is because all the yeah so all this right hand side is all Wetland so no one's walking or playing games or doing anything in let's like it's nature you can look at it but yeah but you're not utilizing any of that green space so there's there's really barely any all all looks like they're trying to cram every space with a town home and not even room for sidewalks um yeah Jenna in in reviewing what the council had said about it it seemed like they were trying to meet different not different density requirements do you know if there's still room for them to lower density requirements to add more green space in sidewalks I believe so but that would be a question better asked to our Planning Commission and staff yeah comments top lot I'm I'm torn because I feel if we say no then there's nothing right like there's there's no I mean and does a Tot Lot have a basketball court yeah what is a Tot Lot yeah how would you define you know like yeah a Tot Lot in definition is just a smaller plot um that um would be geared more towards those who don't need large amounts of play so you wouldn't be able to fit like very large large um playground equipment on it it's not large enough for like a court or anything like that so um it's more so if you think of some of our currently existing plot or tot Lots in the neighborhood it's just a small place structure um that's about the extent of what you can fit on tot LS and would it be serve all kids or would it be just little ones uh it would be equipment that would be more suited towards smaller ones because the larger um pieces typically can't be fit into this space and in this case they're just proposing that they would dedicate the land and they're not going to put any equipment there right so what they would be doing is they be dedicating the land and because the 2 point or 253 acre would not meet the requirements then they would have to do the monetary contribution out so we would be able to use that towards any of our Park developments um so we would potentially have the ability to um put it in depending upon what we went with with our other locations I have mixed feelings about the the concept of totot just because I know it's it's more restrictive as far as the the kind of kid or the the um ages of kids that can participate on it um that being said if Town Homes can be considered more of a starter home for families with young kids that might be more of a fit for that kind of a development um families with young kids but I'm kind of I'm kind of struggling with this one myself I mean there's nothing that says that we have to put like the small play equipment on it either I'm just trying to think creatively since we're not deciding on that right now either like could you you could you do a picnic shelter um it's not big enough for a picnic shelter so it is Tiny very tiny yeah because with the picnic shelter you also have to factor in legal requirements for parking so okay yeah you're probably pretty limited to what great idea though you know like like okay it's how can we use a screen space that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be a you know yeah that 2-year-old to 5-year-old necessarily mean that it does drastically limit what can be put there if we put something there like it could be a picnic space but that would be that it would it's not open it's not big enough to be like a field yep yeah it's pretty small yeah and those other outlots listed what are do we know if those are usable spaces what do you mean by outlots this is like outlot h outlot g i was noticing those too out like right below the Tot Lot is oh yeah so that would still be owned by the HOA mhm yeah I'm not sure what their plans would be for those because um some of some of this because of the streets I'm not sure if maybe they would end up needing to have a space to push snow or something like that because that's the downside of town hom so some of these might be placeholders for that yeah I I would say the lack of sidewalks is a big concern as well M yeah especially if that's the our policy or what the Yeah you know then yeah then I think we should try to try to stick to that yeah so um with that what would your recommendation be so the official recommendation is just that there um should be sidewalks on both sides for um as much of a density where would you like to see the sidewalks definitely on both sides of the street in the town homes and going up to the trail I think kind of connecting everything s the trail oh both sides yeah coming off the trail down to yeah the one side does connect to um the trail on the South Side there's but there isn't a connection to the North Trail right what about in the single family homes yeah that's tough cuz it's there's so little actual Street there right mhm um I think if there is a sidewalk in the marsh Hollow on the north side of Greek side L it be good for it to connect not just dead end I yeah yeah and that's one question we don't know but yes I would agree like we just can't have another dead ins sidewalk mhm particularly cuz like now is the only chance there's not a sidewalk put in it's not going to it's never going to happen yeah mhm yep on the north side of Creek Side Lane yeah if people are biking along the trail it's nice to have a another area to walk on the other side yeah because I think Creek Side is really going to be kind of the main East West thoroughfare through this area so yeah think about it Trail on one side a sidewalk on the other yeah cuz these these this land keeps getting purchased and it's going to keep going yeah yeah and we still don't really know what the plan is to connect any of it to 10 on this side right I will say the commercial development is working really hard to get us connected so in the single family are the out lws there going to be streets how do these people get to their it it's all coming off of the street about or it's gu it called the sack right I see Street a but what about the4 on right side there yeah I think there's a little like it's like a private driveway that's yeah where are you referring to uh to the right of wetland a the north side of Creek Side Lane um the homes listed six five and four oh yeah yeah most yep that's just a road yeah that's the road then they could get on the creek side Sidewalk if there was one there is that what you're thinking yeah yeah oh yeah yeah that's another reason I yeah that's another helpful there because otherwise those people they're kind of yeah stuck yeah another valid so I think we would also recommend it sounds like a sidewalk on the okay what were the other questions Jenna um sidewalk most of okay so the trail on the south side is that already the part that's in Marsh Halla there is that already there so it just at dead ends at the edge currently that's the way it works go to the end think their hope is that more developments come yeah well it's good that it's yeah I mean yeah because even with with this one if that were to happen this one is Dead ending mhm yeah but yeah okay here's a question because um but TR so is there a possibility for a trail or sidewalk some sort of walkway to go around the edges of this Wetland so that it's a a loop right there like and that's what they dedicate to us like behind those town houses MH yeah yeah see how so so the it's it's being called the southeast portion the the trail connecting Marsh Hollow development in the Southeast portion but so yep down there but then could It Go um like around the outside kind of around the outside where the edge of the Wetland yeah where the edge of the Wetland is outlined like behind like this direction yeah and loop back up to meet the creek I do know like in some of these spots there you'll see the word buffer there are requirements between buffer and undevelopable land that they might not be able to fit it in between that and the property lines um but I can see I can add that as a recommendation if it's possible I mean what do people feel about that because then that's then that's like a loop oh it's like a a neighborhood walking Loop almost MH you suggesting going around the outside too like on the right side of the yeah all so all the way around that wet land yeah so if you can see my mouse is this this where you're talking about like kind of following yeah back this way and then and and if that trail is already there yeah I can't say that I'm positive that that's actually possible because of the requirements for a buffer between Wetland and the property lines but I can say that's a recommendation if it is yeah it would be nice to have I think particularly with density they're going for here as many walking areas as possible would be isn't it almost impossible to fit that many when you draw them it's one thing but yeah it's tight it's really tight yeah I wondering how it compares to like the other town home developments around seems very tight all right any other comments or suggestions or questions so will we keep seeing this as it keeps getting updated um that this this particular one yeah um if this one with our recommendation goes to council and they're able to come to an agreement it will not come back to us okay yeah so this is the chance to give the feedback yeah I think the last one had houses on the Wetland do you know if they like to it they did change their design and then they did decrease the amount of HS okay um so slightly altered yeah it went from like there were a few different numbers but it either went from like 18 single family homes or 15 single family homes to the 13 I think it was 15 to 13 and like 152 Town Homes to 148 okay anything else is that connection from the south roundabout to 10 is that is that a connection the sort of dark gray line is it a road railroad oh the railroad is lower than that that okay that's so I'm wondering what this line is Oh that line um yeah I am not positive see if I can pull up the Legend doesn't look big enough to be a road so that's supposed to be the potential something else or like a trail maybe but there's no Trail on town yeah the document that I'm looking at isn't indicating what that is so I am not positive I I thought I read somewhere that it was going to be a almost like a temporary Road oh that that might be I can't find um that right now I don't know if it was in Planning Commission meeting minutes or council meeting minutes that I was um yeah there's another there's like a detail view in here as well that doesn't show that so it might be like a temporary Road MH I am seeing um a gravel surface oh that could be a farm road then or Field Road snowmobile trail I mean I guess we could say need amenity we could say you know because that would be another Miss so we could say if there is a road connecting the neighborhood to County Road 10 that needs a trail or sidewalk along it as well to cover cover our BAS cover it m yeah yeah I think I remember talking about that before that we wanted to Trail all the way to 10 yeah yeah well because it's not clear yet if you live over here if you'll be able to get on to 10 to go to the commercial District M oh you would cross the rail road tracks MH quick okay anything else all right really good feedback thank you everybody um so next agenda item if we don't have anything else move on um other business is there does anybody have any other business to share no all right then we'll move on to adjournment so if there are no more items to talk about I will um adjourn the meeting can I ask for a motion to adjourn so moved a second second all right a motion's been made in seconded to adjourn all oo all in favor I I opposed all right meeting's adjourned e