Uh good evening everyone. Uh this is the July 20th park and recreation committee meeting and um as we get started let's just go around the room and for I take a roll call starting with Owen >> Owen Beckers
>> Jay Zean Blake Fber Chris Casey Alexheim Adam Der >> Larry Schulz >> Amanda Cahill Mary Larson >> Jacob Paul >> Tammy Leonetti then Brian McCann City Planer staff
Okay, thanks everyone. Uh, first order of business is to adopt the final meeting agenda as was uh, sent to you. Uh, would somebody like to make that motion? >> I move to adopt the final meeting agenda.
>> Okay. Is there a second to that? >> Second. >> Okay. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> Oppos. Same sign. Motion carried. Uh there's nobody to speak this evening for public comment. So we'll uh we went past
that. Uh next on the agenda is uh the approval of the park and recreation committee minutes from June 15th. Uh those were sent out in advance. Hope you've had a chance to review those. If so, u any changes? If not, a motion
would be in order to approve those. Somebody like to make a motion. >> Motion to approve. >> A motion's been made. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Motion's been made and seconded to
approve the June 15, 2026 uh minutes as they were submitted. Uh any further comments? All those in favor signify by saying I. I >> oppose. Same sign. Motion carried.
Well, this evening our uh main and only business is uh a introduction to the 2015 comprehensive uh plan update. And with that, I'm going to turn it over to to Brian McCann, who's going to uh walk
us through that. >> Thank you, chair and committee members. Uh yes, thank you all for having me again. Uh it's good to see you all again. Unfortunately, uh our director, Jen Brewington, wasn't able to make it this evening, so I'm presenting uh all
the information for you. Fun fact for you all, this is my first comprehensive plan cycle, so we're all going to learn together here a bit. Um so with that, tonight is really just a general overview. I'll try to answer any questions you have. Um, but some of those questions might have to be
addressed at a future meeting once we get more information from our consultant that we're working with on our comprehens comprehensive plan update. So, uh, how many of you know what a comprehensive plan is? Most of you. Some of you. Okay. Yeah.
Okay. Most of you. Good. Um, yes. So, this is our long range vision. This is how we anticipate the city being developed and growing over the next 20 years. We are classified as an emerging suburban edge community which means we're experiencing a lot more growth uh
than your typical suburban or urban developed community. So uh we have to plan reasonably to do that and we are also required to do this every decade by the metropolitan council that's set by state statute. Um most communities 99%
of the communities in the seven county metro have to go through this. So we are not unique in doing so. And the comprehensive plan document once it's created is really used on a day-to-day basis at least in my role uh when it comes to uh organized development of the
city. We use it to plan infrastructure all sorts of uh developments any new things that are basically happening happening in the city. This is our guiding document. So generally these are the main elements that you will see in a comprehensive
plan. You got land use, housing, transportation, parks and trails, which will be the big the big portion for this group that you will uh review when that plan is prepared. Uh as well as utilities, economic development, natural
resources, and community facilities. Um so all of these combined make up our comprehensive plan and how the city uh plans for the next 20 years of growth. Um, and then it's worth noting that parks and wreck is your main chapter,
but you might get pulled in on discussions regarding land use and natural resources just because those have large overarching aspects for the park and recreation committee to consider. So, the Metropolitan Council is our
regional uh MO, Metropolitan Planning Organization. As I mentioned, they have this right by statute to require that cities conduct a comprehensive plan update every 10 years. Uh they work handinhand with the city in developing these. They provide a lot of the data
that the cities need to do uh these updates such as regional forecasts um as well as working with our local sector representatives to make sure we're complying with all of their regional requirements. And why do they do this? Um they need this to accurately
predict how uh sewer capacity, wastewater capacity is going to grow in the future uh because they provide that to all the municipalities in the seven county metro. So they need to know how much we are growing so that they can plan their systems accordingly as well.
So yes, here um why we do this as I mentioned we have to meet the metropolitan council's requirements. Uh it's also something set in state statute but it's something that uh is helpful for communities to do so that we can reasonably plan for growth and develop
the community how the community wants to see it grow. And then we also use that to coordinate our infrastructure investments and also preserve our character. We do have a lot of discretion when it comes to comprehensive plans. We have general
requirements um for example example density with this upcoming cycle. We have to have at least three and a half units or households per acre in the city. But if we wanted to cluster all the apartments in one spot, we could do that so that the rest of the city could
grow with single family houses. Or if we wanted to uh mix it up and have an apartment here or there, we have the ability to do things like that. They just set minimum requirements, but we get a lot of discretion on how we want to implement that within our plan.
>> So is that like a change from last time this was done? >> Uh committee member, that is a great question. Yes. Um the last cycle the 2040 plan which was done in 2016 to 18 that requirement was three units per
acre at that time. So the requirement has increased by a half unit per acre. Uh which might not seem like a lot but that means any new development that comes in if it's a 20 acre development let's say we have to plan for 10
additional households. So, it does make a small impact. Um, and then just generally for your guys's knowledge, we're at about that 3 and a half units per acre right now. So, if we develop at the rate we've been going, it shouldn't
be an issue. Okay. So, here uh how does it impact the city of Victoria? As I mentioned, we have discretion with our plan. um where do you envision housing, commercial or industrial activity, uh future parks, utility corridors, roadways, things like
that. These are all components of the comprehensive plan. Uh and you guys will uh be providing significant input on the parks, trails, and recreational amenities within this plan. So, as I mentioned, we're emerging
suburban edge community, which means we are growing. Uh these are some forecasts that were provided by the metropolitan council to help us develop our plan. Uh 2020, you can see in the column furthest on the left in the table below, uh we
were at about 10,500 for population. We expect that to nearly double or actually almost exactly double by 2050. Uh for households, we're anticipated to go over double for that. We're supposed to get 4,000 more
households within the next 25 years about and then our employment is supposed to nearly triple. So, uh, over the next 25 years, we're anticipating a lot of growth just based on how our forecasts are trending and what the
metropolitan council is seeing just generally throughout the United States. So we have this growth and we need to accommodate for it and this is uh part of the plan that we just have to do. >> How do established cities meet those
requirements if they don't have any land? >> They're a bit unique. Um so a lot of the projects that they have are redevelopment projects. So if the metropolitan council is requiring increases in density like let's say a a
office building gets converted into a residential project then they have to meet a certain number of units per acre just the same as we do uh except their thresholds are usually a lot higher like 30 to 40 units per acre just because of how dense they are. So like Minneapolis,
St. Paul um things like that. Does that address your question? >> Because I I just feel that like being on the edge of the suburbs, we're very unique in that land is going to be continued to be annexed into Victoria.
So like some of our surrounding suburbs or closest neighbors don't have the available land that we have. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um really the largest and very beginning of this is community engagement. So, we're working with our
consultant right now. We've contracted Bolton and Mink for our comprehensive plan update. Uh, we will be utilizing them and working with them to develop a community engagement plan. Uh, we plan to have a few open houses as well as a
community survey for this. Uh, so that you all as residents will have an opportunity to comment and be a part of this plan development, not just as the parks and recreation committee. Um and then we'll also have a advisory committee set up. We haven't finalized
the details of that fully yet, but also plenty of online engagement and community events. You'll probably see us at maybe farmers market, concert series, uh classic car nights, either uh later this year or probably all of next
summer. You'll see us out and about doing a lot of engagement on this project with our consultants. So, how does this relate to your role on the parks and recreation committee? Um, you are representatives of the community when it comes to our parks and trails
chapter of this plan. So, your opinion really matters. We like to see uh you all engaged as much as you possibly can be in this process. uh we want you to voice the recreational needs that you are seeing and hearing in
the community as we start developing this chapter of the comprehensive plan. And then some other portions related to the plan, natural resource protection and open space preservation. I know you guys don't typically have a lot to do with that, but that is an important part of our parks and trails system. So, uh
any input you guys have on those as well is definitely important. And then this is the last slide that I have for you all. This is just a general timeline of activities um and major milestones that we hope to achieve with
our consultant to get us to a final implementation of our plan by spring of 2028. Um this is going to be a long process with lots of opportunities for you all to be involved. Um you're one of the major components here of the parks
and wreck review uh which we hope to have ready for you all by next fall. Um but other than that staff can stand for any questions you might have. Like I said it's my first time going through this as well. So I might not be able to answer all of them as well as our
consultant could. But I will certainly do my best to answer and if I don't know the answer I will write them down so that next time I can answer those questions. questions for Brian. Tammy, >> I do actually have one. Um, I was trying to think of how to formulate it because you sort of started it. So, the
Metropolitan Council, they're telling us, they're telling the city of Victoria >> that we need to when we develop, we need to have a minimum of 3.5 homes per acre. >> What
can't we say? No, we don't want to do that. we're going to stay at three or we're going to drop it down to two and a half. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what the catch is there because it's our community and I don't you see where I'm going with that? >> Yes. Yes. Uh chair and committee members, uh that is a great question and
the reason for doing that um and having to comply with that requirement is like I mentioned, they provide sewer to all of the metro and all of the cities. So, um, if a new project came in or even an existing project that maybe needed
sewer, if we don't comply with the Metropolitan Council's plan, they can turn off any additional sewer capacity for the city. we won't be able to grow anymore, which affects you as taxpayers and your tax statements because if we don't have development and building
permits to add to the general fund to pay for um new infrastructure and all these things, it raises your taxes. >> So, it's more of a financial impact. >> Correct. >> Other questions for Brian? Brian, in fall of 2027, you got that
parks and wreck review node there. How does that differ? Like in my experience, it's there's a new development. Part of it's probably going to be a park, right? That's how the most recent parks have probably been cropped up over in Victoria over the past x amount of years, whatever, right? How would that
parks and wreck review phase be different from or maybe that's not the right right way to ask, but if it's dependent on new developments happening with and a portion of the land being dedicated for the park,
>> I understand this parks and recre is more like long-term focused, but what are the types of things we'd talk about? Maybe that's the simplest way to ask. What are the types of things we would review or talk about or like foresight into over the next 15 years for the parks and recck committee?
>> Yeah, good question. Um, so the biggest thing is going to be new development parks. I think in my opinion, just in my role as the city planner, uh, because as someone mentioned, we have an annexation agreement with Lake Township. We're
going to continue growing as uh, those properties in the township want to sell and develop. And for that, we need to plan for where we want parks in these new areas in town, where we want trails. I think that's going to be the most significant portion of your guys' review
of this chapter when we start focusing on areas currently outside of Victoria's boundaries that might come into it by 2050. >> Got it. That makes sense. Thank you. You know, that's one thing that we've talked about um you know, number of meetings
back is as each of these developments come up, you know, we've kind of looked at them um at that development and maybe how it ties to existing developments, but it would be this might be an opportunity to
look ahead and say, "Hey, it would be nice to have like a a main trail that goes through this area. So, we kind of have that in mind before we get to the point where uh we're trying to piece things together. Um
so, anyway, opportunity exists. >> I have a question. Um, so after the Metropolitan Council review, I assume they they probably what they approve it,
they send it back and say there's a couple things we have concerns about and then address and goes back and forth to finally they sign off on it. Mhm. >> Um, so what has been the city's experience with, let's say, existing plans in place
when a new development or new opportunities come up and there needs to be a variance from what the plan is? Um, how does that process work? Do you have to go to to the Metropolitan Council and
ask for their blessing to change it? and if so, how often does that result in a favorable response percentage-wise? >> Sure, that's a great question. Um, so we get those types of applications right
now with our 2040 plan. We all the developments that you've seen come in. Maybe not all of them. A few of them have applied for what's called a comprehensive plan amendment where their line doesn't always or their project doesn't always fall in line with every
single requirement of our 2040 plan. So they ask for what's called a minor amendment in the Metropolitan Council's eyes. Um, city council when they review a development gives them the green light basically to have an amendment
submitted, but it's not up to our city council to actually approve that amendment. It falls on the metropolitan council. Um, we haven't had one rejected yet, but they look at projects regarding their regional policies. So, as long as
the amendment still complies with their general overarching goals, they typically approve them. Thank you. >> Yeah. And then as it relates to the 2050 plan, as we start developing this plan, questions have come up from other
communities. Well, how are they going to approve amendments to a 2040 plan while we're approving a 2050 plan? And the Metropolitan Council has provided a hard cutoff date on when they will accept amendments to the F 2040 plan. Anything after that just has to be incorporated
in our our 2050 draft. Is it safe to assume the Metropolitan Council reaches as far as White Bear Lake, Lakeville, Maple Grove, >> all of them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> The seven county metro. I can't remember all of them, but yeah, a very
significant portion of the metro. And I think there's only like two or three communities that actually don't have to do a comprehensive plan either because they don't use sewer from the Metropolitan Council or when the statute
went into effect in the 70s they got to basically say pass no thank you we don't want to be a part of this right >> that's upheld since then. >> Um on the trails question I know um like the county also does regional trail planning. Mhm.
>> Uh like the trail we talked about last week as part of their regional plan. Is that is that is the county like collaborating on this process with us? >> Yeah, that's another great question. You guys are full of them tonight. Um [clears throat] we work with lots of other agencies through this process.
We'll work with the county, the state because of highways five and seven. will work with our two local watersheds, the Minhaha Creek wershed and the Carver County Watershed Management Organization, as well as many other groups, property owners, business
owners, various stakeholders within the community. So, it's a very long detailed process where we get a lot of collaboration. >> How do they compare like Chaska's plan they'll submit in Victoria's to like make sure there's not overlap? Is that
something they'll review during this? And >> Yep. >> How do they pick which city gets what thing? Do you have any insight with that? >> Yeah. So, we just work within our own uh district boundaries or our own jurisdictional boundaries. So, we can say um I'll use like the south side of
town. If you know, uh county roads 10 and 11, that intersection, we imagine that to be kind of our commercial and industrial hub. When we started developing the 2040 plan, we talked with the city of Carver who actually abuts
that line with us on the very south side and they said, "Well, that seems like a good industrial area for us as well." So, there's coordinations with other cities when we have shared uh boundaries so that we don't have um a large industrial site next to a bunch of
single family homes, for example. There is some coordination there. Will we have the It sounds like we will, but the opportunity to partner with um like we've talked about it on this committee a lot. Um how Three Rivers
Park District, you know, um their access to water is is their access to water, but it it's like all of the like not all, but much of the city's water access actually falls under the jurisdiction of
the Carver Park Reserve and their amenities. Is there going to be like an opportunity for greater partnership there, do you think? >> That's another good question. I don't know the answer to that one. Um, I'm guessing that's more so a policy of
theirs in how they operate dayto-day versus um like planning new park areas. But it's something that we could definitely raise with them. Three Rivers is another partner that we'll work with for this project. So we can ask the question and
see what they say about it. >> Okay. >> What are some of the things that are in the U existing comprehensive plan as it relates to parks and trails? >> Um meaning >> yeah what I mean what's in the existing
uh Metropolitan Council >> for 2040 >> for 2040 plan? What what's in there regarding parks and trails or are they Yeah. Is there something that they have overall or is it just the cities including that in their plan and they
just make sure that they're not overlapping or how does that work? >> A little bit of both. So when it comes to our local parks, our neighborhood and community parks, we have discretion on where and how we want to develop those. But when it comes to the county's trail
system or the three rivers park system, that's something that the metropolitan council incorporates in their their overall plan. So it's a little bit of both. I have seen it is a the current one is available online
somewhere because I have seen it >> and read through some of the park and wreck stuff and the one thing that did like stick out to me was even way when that one was published one of the
priorities uh for park and wreck was access to water and finding as the city annexes new land, finding opportunities to have
like a public access potential for the city of Victoria. >> So, I know there's that one piece. I don't know >> a ton of other further details, but it is a lot of pages on Perk and Wreck within that plan.
>> Yeah. And that's really uh something that we've talked about in the last community survey that we had. The water features have you know that actually for the first time since I've been on here surpassed the trail gaps as the number
one item. And uh you know this appears to be just another good opportunity as we continue to expand as a community to continue to look at those opportunities. Other questions for Brian? >> So, is it worth our while to go back and
review? Are we going to start with the 2040 and kind of move forward or are you talking about doing a clean break and starting all over again? What is your anticipation for the process? >> That's another great question. Uh my
understanding from other staff has been that the 2040 plan was a much larger overhaul than this current plan. We're going to be working off of that 2040 plan mostly. So I highly recommend reviewing that if you haven't already,
at least the parks and trail chapter of that plan because it will definitely feed into what we're working with for 2050. Other questions? >> I did have a followup. And by the way,
it's the density thing is kind of stuck >> for the reason of the pressure that that puts on the watershed and our natural resources. So fully aligned with why we're the parks committee. >> Um I would Who is the metropolitan council?
Is this some type of state? Is it part of the state government? I I'm curious like who is dictating this? >> Yes. So, um they're appointed individuals I believe, not an elected body. Um and so they make decisions
about the metropolitan area. I can't remember exactly how many individuals are appointed on that board. Uh but yes, they make decisions for the entire metro. Uh they're pretty obviously powerful group if they can designate
density requirements for the entire metro. >> Um I honestly do not have as many details as I probably should on them, but generally that's who they are. >> I'm curious what is in it like what they must have some goals and things that
they're trying to do with this eight county or whatever it is what this you know >> regional area. So, I'm curious. >> Their biggest thing is managing growth and they also provide transit services. You know, if you drive downtown Minneapolis St. Paul, you'll see all the
buses down there have a Metropolitan Council logo on the back of them. They also provide a lot of grant funding for different um things for cities. So, uh, they do a lot of good as well, but because of our growth and just the
general growth in the metro, they need to plan for that accordingly. And that was the whole purpose behind the statute in the 70s requiring these comprehensive plans. So, >> yeah. Uh I I I say that I just it I'm
thinking through it from the perspective of if infrastructure, sewer systems, transportation, all that is important. I would think that they would be okay. Like why would they push for higher density unless there's some ulterior motive here that they're trying to get to that we're getting caught up in unfortunately.
>> But uh I can dig I'm sure they publish >> I've heard about them before. I'm sure they publish things. >> Yes, absolutely. is, but I I would I just it's frustrating because I feel like we should be able to control what we want in the city and we pride ourselves on >> being, you know, a spacious, green
community. The new developments are really like the roads are narrow. There's a lot of houses. It can be tough sometimes to get through. Yeah, >> I I point out too, um I think it was within the last year and maybe they come every year, but somebody from the
Metropolitan Council came to a city council meeting I was at and um gave an overview of some of the things they're doing and it was was good because I always uh viewed them as something you saw in the paper when there was a
controversy of some sort, but they actually do a lot of good stuff. provide the planning data and that so I don't maybe Brian can find out what meeting that is and I would encourage people on the committee have more questions on
that can just uh cue that meeting up and hear that presentation because it was it was actually pretty good. >> Yeah, it was a 10 15 minute presentation and light discussion with council. It probably happened about six to eight months ago. If you go back in our our
meeting records, you should be able to find it. Um, and then to your questions, um, regarding growth, we populations are growing. They recognize that. So, we need new houses, apartments, things like
that. And their goal is to just manage that efficiently. Um, we can't obviously tell people not to move Victoria or not have children in Victoria. population trends are going upwards and everyone just has to plan for it.
>> This is a huge assumption, but I'm sure most of their motivations is just founded in urban sprawl analytics basically whether it's people moving from out of state in or moving from an urban area to a not as urban area especially post pandemic. >> Uh does the Met Council work with the
DNR in terms of like wells and access to water? I don't know how closely they work together. Um, obviously the DNR is a state agency and the Metropolitan Council is kind of their own thing. Um, they probably work together just as much
as any other city or county agency does. >> Um, but I I don't think they're exactly handinand with each other. >> I'm curious because I I know from talking to like the water guys for the city that they have to get approval from the DNR when they want to add a new
well. And it's so but you need to add new wells to meet the density requirement. So it's a little bit of a competition there. >> Yes. [snorts] >> Anything else? If not, thanks Brian for providing that overview and answering
your questions. Um, next uh item on the agenda, reports and emerging issues. And I'm going to call on Amanda first because she uh gave the updated report for a committee to the city council.
>> Thanks. So, yep. Just one week ago last Monday, um uh all of the committees were invited to present their next year's work plan. So, I presented ours on behalf of us. So our
2026 work plan just touching on three kind of like focus areas if you can remember back to when we talked about that. So it was um public engagement for park projects, the west and south growth areas
and non-traditional park spaces. Um, [clears throat] so the one things I wanted to mention that I pointed out was so for for for park
engagement pro uh projects um it was just after the Brookmore park engagement event. Um and then how like that's combined with a survey that's still open to the general public to fill out. um
till the end of this month and we'll re be reviewing that results in August meeting. Um and then for the west and south growth areas we again highlighted
the access to water or water features. Um and then um it had just we had just reviewed the sketch plat for the Atoria project and I highlighted our excitement about the
possible future trail connections that that development provides access to. Um and then touched on um our Hunterbrook Marshall meeting. Um,
specifically mentioning like really just how engaged everyone on our committee was with that meeting and brought so many um different perspectives and comments and how we are so deeply
um focused on bringing forth what the community says in those surveys and engagement events so that the community continues to have trust in us that we're listening to them
and so highlighted that um for council and then um non-traditional park spaces um that kind of goes with um reviewing trails and I mentioned um or noticed
that like the trail gap uh website spot wasn't yet updated even though we have completed that um meeting and and insight into there. So like staff um is working on that to reflect
um our work. Um the council asked two questions. One member asked about our increase in numbers and my opinion on how that has been working since I've been here with a
much lower amount of members and what I shared like personally I feel that I've loved our increase in numbers because um people are bringing these different perspectives and pushing members to
think differently or about um something new so that um we're bringing like more strength to our meetings. Um even you know disagreements like bring the committee strength and then another um
council member asked about kind of our change in um park engagement. So, in the past, we would review these sketch plats or park amenities, but we didn't always have the
opportunity to get um community feedback and community engagement. So, um, again, I shared that it it feels like it gives our work more meaning when we're able to have the community feedback. Um, and um,
listening to them what we want or what they want these, you know, community members versus us making these decisions like separately. So, um, in that respect, I thought the community
engagement piece again is is working as long as we continue to always look through the lens of what those surveys and results are are sharing with us. So, >> thanks Amanda. >> Yep.
>> Other emerging issues. I just have one comment. Um the uh engagement I think's been really good this past year and I know I've and many of if many of you if not all of you have participate in at least one of those
events and it's it's good to hear from people in those neighborhoods the things that they're interested in. uh the one thing that I I I think those need to continue but I also think we need to be cautious uh of how we explain things going
forward because I think with those we also set an expectation and that expectation is already on top of what the developers expectation has what they've shared with people who move in that neighborhood like okay well you got this parkland and then you know there's
I think some residents that are wondering 6 months after the development starts the way the park isn't there yet. So I think we have to be clear on our you know when that park will be developed. Uh and also we've been
fortunate here and that there's been enough new development that some of the um fees in lie of uh land uh have been able to fund some of that. But I I'm I'm getting a little nervous about uh
setting expectations and if if development slows down or people are if they're dedicating parkland instead of fees that we get in a situation where the expectations really high, something's going to happen. But it's going to be, you know, a number of years before there's actually any park there.
So I don't know what we do about that other than maybe just share that concern with the council. uh and maybe ask them to consider additional funding source in future budgets for you know maybe that's
borrowing against uh future uh um you know I'm not going to they they will know best you know if the funds are available or what the other thing I think I mentioned at the last meeting I did think it was really good that at their last or several meetings ago that
they um decided to move ahead with other things that we ended up cutting out of the Huntersbrook and Marsh Howell Park. You know, those funds were sitting there for that for a purpose to develop parks and it's good to make use of that. And I
think we're going to end up with a really good project as a as a result of that. And I I'm guessing that in the next month, was it next month or the following month, we'll see a preliminary uh presentation at least from the
consultant on the development of those parks. Do you know, Brian? >> I don't know exact timing, but you should start to see something soon. They're getting more detailed plans prepared. Okay. >> All right. Anybody have anything else
they'd like to bring up for the good of the cause? Just a question. [clears throat] Once we're presented with the preliminary plan, is that when it goes out to bid at that point or is the project kind of out to bid as well or out for bid right now to compile that kind of preliminary
plan? That's a good question as well. Um, I know we're seeking bids on playground equipment right now for the parks. So, I think portions are out for bid. Um, regarding who's going to do any greeting or grading, seating, things
like that, I think that's still up for discussion. We haven't finalized those details yet. >> Thank you. >> Anything else? If not, great attendance tonight. Uh, good participation. Uh, got a good group
here. Uh, Brian, thanks for bringing that to us. Amanda, thanks for updating us on the your presentation. With that, uh, I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> A motion's been made. Is there a second?
>> Second. >> All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> We're ajourned.