##VIDEO ID:aIBY1CyTSas## e e good evening I will now call this meeting to order the first first order of business is to adopt the agenda for tonight's meeting Commissioners is there a motion to adopt the final agenda so moved motion can I get a second second have motion a second all those in favor I oppos thank you the motion carries our next order of business is to adopt the minutes from our January 21st 20 25 Planning Commission meeting Commissioners is there a motion to approve the minutes sub moved second got a motion and a second all those in favor I opposed thank you the motion carries we're now moving on to our discussion items our first item tonight is item 3.1 uh continue the public hearing for the West Creek Village Residential development to February 18th Planning Commission meeting is my understanding that the applicant is preparing additional M materials for the commission to review at the meeting on February 18th city planner mcain do you have anything to add uh yes thank you chair so we did notice for the meeting this evening since they requested to move it we just ask that the plan commission uh open the public hearing and continue it to the next meeting thank you I will now open the public hearing is there anyone in the chambers who wishes to comment on this item hearing no public comment Commissioners may I have a motion to continue the public hearing I'd like to make a motion to Contin continue the public hearing on West Creek Village to the next regular meeting of the Planning Commission on February 18th 20 25 a motion could I get a second second a motion and second all those in favor I close thank you we will continue this item to our meeting on February 18th with a presentation prepared by staff our second item tonight is item 3.2 discuss article one of the zoning code revision I will now turn it over to associate planner Travis beerley for a staff presentation chair Commissioners uh tonight is the first night of going through the zoning code in a full review um so part of it's going to be talking about the overall process and then we'll jump right into the first article uh that we'll be looking at we do have some goals with the zoning code as we go through it we want to make sure that we're transparent with the community because there it will be in effect and our conversations will not have a public hearing till later in the year here uh we also want to make sure that staff's available for comments or questions or anything that gets brought up to a planning commissioner city council member whoever get directed so that we can provide an appropriate response on it we also want to be flexible during the process because it is a lot and there will be changes there'll be things that we cover that we'll go back to and change and so on and so forth uh in addition uh this staff is also looking at updating the municipal side of the code and we want to make sure that the municipal and the zoning code line up with each other more longevity out of the changes the other thing that we want to do is we want to unite the municipal and Zoning code back together underneath one city code so it's not split and the overall goal is early 2026 to have this process done I know it sounds like a long ways away but it's not as far as we would probably like uh just a quick background on how we got there uh there's recognitions the shortfalls and the zoning code uh staff went through and reviewed the zoning code multiple times from in its entirety and at one point we had over 500 uh items to comment on that staff has gone through and then we've also made sure last year to address some of the more immediate items with the Planning Commission and the city council so we passed things such as updating our business districts or conditional use permits um and interim permits the sign ordinance and the fence ordinance those were things needed more mediate attention now we're looking at everything in a greater broader sense the process for this is going to be taking a look at the bulk standards and our performance standards and our overlay districts and our administrative and clerical updates so out of all those over 500 comments a lot of that goes into this some of it's just bringing stuff up to the Modern Standard uh some of its language changes some of its formatting and things like that so not everything is something something immediate that needs to be done as part of the comments uh like I said uh we're going to be making some changes building permits and predatory fenders those are municipal code items that are currently inside our zoning code so we'll be looking at moving those over through this updated process um with that being said what's going to be presented to the Planning Commission is going to be the updates of our current code in a new format so it won't be a complete red line from our current code to what's being presented we're going to work on lining uh the items brought forward um and that and this whole process we're looking at at least 12 meetings to go through the zoning code on its own uh that doesn't include uh any revisions or having to look look back at things or extend times that we're looking at different articles throughout the code nor does it include um time to look at the subdivision ordinance or any other items that might come up during this process uh like I said when we're tracking changes um as staff we're going to keep a master copy of all the comments of all the changes and we'll create a Redline version to be presented of everything as we go through uh tonight as Commissioners everybody has a copy of just this one article we have a printed binder and we'll have a digital copy as well going through and marking all that up and those comments will be not only from the Planning Commission but anything that we hear from the community or from the city council or from the city attorney or other staffers other things pop up we'll make sure to keep that flexibility moving forward um overall what that what the plan is is once we get a full Redline done of the entire code we'll give the planning we'll make sure to get a copy out to the Planning Commission so everybody H has has enough time to review it outside of the meetings uh to where we're comfortable to hold a public hearing and we'll hold a public hearing on the changes that are presented tonight next week and or next meeting so on so forth and all the Redline from then when we're looking at everything in front of you is a general list in order of everything that we're going to want to go through tonight we're just looking at the in general section which is article one uh that is going to include definitions and just some clerical and administrative things that we need to get through with the code and a foundational basis uh we'll move on to article two we'll spend a few meetings on article 3 then article four so on and so forth uh this is a little bit of a restructure in and it might not tie directly into if you're looking for specific language in the titles between what's being presented and what's in the current code if you do need help finding that or if anybody in the community needs help finding that uh staff is more than available to help track down the changes where the differences are and help understanding through the process so moving in the before we jump into this first section to take a look at it were there any comments or questions from the Planning Commission on uh kind of where we're at how we got there and then moving forward have a general comment or suggestion when you talk about doing keeping Redline changes I don't know if this is what you're talking about but my suggestion would be to also keep a change log of why the change was made so when it does make final approval five years from now we can have a log to go back to say all right this is why we changed it remembering decisions five years from now is very very difficult um so I don't know if that's already in place if that is that's great but just a recommendation is to keep a log of there's a Redline version but there's also like hey we made this change this update this is the reason why what whatever detail you want to put in there and I don't know if that need to be public or what but just like that way you can go back uh commissioner that's an excellent point that's something that we are doing because we'll have to type up the memo we'll have to make sure that we can present it to uh to Residents so that's an excellent suggestion and we'll take a look early at that process to make sure that what we've created so far we can continue and meet all the requirements that we need to okay so going going into article one uh it's going to cover different sections the definition scope and purpose applicability according to other codes rules construction area regulations U substantially similar uses uh the the review process by the planning commission for designs and then temporary Family Healthcare dwellings so the first thing that we're looking at is the definitions and you'll notice right underneath the title it says amended so what that means is we've taken what's existing and we've changed it or we've added to it or taken away from it but it's nothing created brand new so it's things that have been seen before the definition section has over has about 250 definitions in it uh that's a cons or that's a Consolidated effort to get the definitions throughout the zoning code into one area as well as make sure that some of the questions that have come up in the past or in different experiences to make sure we have it defined if we have a use we need a definition for it so that we can regulate it better so we have a better frame or reference um the definitions have been looked at by staff and not just planning staff but we've reached out to other departments as well as some of the definition definitions do have some Crossing some of the things to not in the definitions that we've done is we've updated or added defition for yards and setbacks uh those definitions have been changed in the proposed draft that's in front of you tonight uh compared to what's in the current code a lot of that is just cleaning up the language and making it better so when we go through the code and set performance standards it can be better and more easily explained and it meets similar language to what we have in neighboring communities as well as most of the Metro uh we have parking versus storing of vehicles that is being put in so that we can have yet again a performance standard of of defining parking with a set time limit after that it becomes storing um different parts that'll even go over in the municipal code uh to deal with traffic in vehicles as well so it goes just it goes beyond uh Building height uh we went ahead and we amended that to meet the Shoreland code uh currently the two definitions that we have for Building height and Shoreland is different than what we have in our general section under 16-1 so this corrects that schools schools one of those misunderstood definitions there is a statute definition for schools and that would be the definition that we would be using so that your prek that your public institutions but it wouldn't be like Mathnasium or any of those type of things yes commissioner oh my apologies um the other thing that we looked at was impervious impervious surface coverage uh earlier we had brought or earlier uh the city planner had brought in a proposal to do a 2% coverage in our definitions for R1 District that you could do a permeable surface in addition to the maximum impervious and because of how the Shoreland ordinance was written now it's applied everywhere in addition to that we noticed that there was a couple issues with the definition of impervious within our code that we've made sure to address by by making these updates and it further comply with uh DNR standards as well uh the other thing that we looked at was Cannabis a lot of rules with that there's still a lot of changes coming with that but we made sure to get a definition of what every single license type that we would have or type of use we would have in the community um just to kind of line everything up uh there were a few other changes but nothing too substantial um the next thing we look at is the an amended section for the scope purpose and intent uh basically what this is is this is saying what the zoning code is how it's used and why it's important uh this pretty standard language um this was reviewed by the City attorney he didn't have any comments on it um but we do need to say hey this is why we have the code this is how we're going to implement it and this is what we want to achieve by doing it the next thing that we look at is applicability and compliance which is amended um what this says is this is basically your non-con or this is saying that you have to conform with the city code um we're not going to allow for uh non-conformities to be created so when we look at subdivisions and splitting a parcel we're not going to create a parcel which exists which doesn't meet our current code or if we do a split that the building that's on the property will now need to meet this will still need to meet the setbacks height requirements and that type of thing uh the something that we did add to the code so this is completely new language uh is coordination with other codes basically what this does is this sets the parameters to if there's a conflict within our ordinances what prevails um this is standard language that's in the code uh it'll help clean up a lot of discrepancies we may have uh if you and this will this just helps explain what you're going to do uh it also permits uh lawful non-conform conformities as well so next thing we have is rules of construction this is a brand new item as well uh this goes back and says basically uh it helps with some of the definitional challenges that that we could have uh the term lot and parcel are two different things but they're used interchangeably um a lot is a property description a parcel is the summary of the property description but we'll put them back and forth the same with saying property or plot or piece and things like that so that's just one example what it is it also defines that when we use the terms like should and may or shall and must to show that interchangeability and and the applicab of that type of language we have area regulations uh this says straight out you cannot create a non-conformity we we won't pass anything that creates it uh the other thing that staff is looking into on this is creating some catch all language that that says if the code doesn't permit it it's not allowed we currently have language within the business districts of our current code as well as in the proposed code in other areas to have that catchall language but as staff since this went out it was suggested that moving it here will take care of any confusion uh and if there are amendments made in the future it'll make sure that you don't have to amend multiple places if you want to change those rules so it simplifies it and and it makes it better and cleaner uh going forward we have the determination of of substantially similar use this is an addition basically what this language says is that if somebody comes up and says that they want to open a business and their business isn't clearly defined in the city code is it similar enough to another business that that's how we're going to view it as a city they would do they would do a request through staff or the zoning administrator would come to the Planning Commission go to the city Council but what it doesn't do is it doesn't trigger the public hearing and it doesn't trigger a zoning text Amendment an example for this if it was to happen is a Papa Murphy there it's a take and bake it's not really a restaurant it's not really a convenience store it's not really retail so where do you classify how do you set the regulations for what it is because we don't have a clear definition of how that business would operate so this would be one of those things that they were to come to town they'd say hey what use do we category do we fall underneath the staff will come to the Planning Commission discussion provide a recommendation to city council city council say yep that's what it is and then we use those regulations in there so if it is considered a restaurant we'll use the restaurant regulations but Papa Murphy's is like I said it's Unique they don't have seating inside because they don't cook anything on site you take the pizza home so it's it's a goofy spot uh the next thing is the design review process by the Planning Commission this uh ordinance has not been touched by staff it was recently adopted in 20123 was the last update um there wasn't anything in there that that raised a cause of concern uh for staff going forward I got one okay so uh with look at boundary lines this this is amended um basically what it did is say if a property's in two different zoning District the last district will prevail um there was some language from 2017 that had a 20% Improvement Rule and this other stuff this ordinance is amended to clean up that type of language that's currently in the code um mistakes do happen when we Zone properties and you might have a home or a business which sits on what we see as one parcel but or one property but it has multiple Parcels in it and the zoning might have split on that so now you go to the less restrictive and you can make it a termination uh going forward without having to come to the Planning Commission and request a resoning or any changes to the zoning map in that effect temporary Family healthc Care dwellings is the last item that we're going to look at tonight uh this is an addition this comes from a law back in 2016 uh which allows for uh basically you to put a tiny home on your property if you are uh need of uh medical care whether it be physical or mental care you could have a family member or caretaker live in a tiny home in your backyard and the city would have to permit it um there are special rules to it but basically 300 Square fet can't have a permanent foundation it's got to be able to be transported by a pickup and it's got to connect to water and uh utilities things that we can't do would include saying hey it needs to match the color of the home or it needs to be in a certain area have there's special rules that go with it um in 2016 it was put out and the recommendation was to opt out of it and most the cities and counties throughout the state opted out of this there are a few cities but that's your Minneapolis that's your St Paul that's your your Rochester St Cloud duth your larger communities which have uh much more diverse housing especially smaller Lots and things like that where maybe an Adu isn't something they'd be able to do um with that uh staff is looking for discussion on the on the three topics that are here one are the definitions clear and easily understood that's a big goal especially moving forward we're going to be using those for the next few months as we go through the review uh the next thing is should the zoning code allow for an alter alternative process that's sub substantially similar use process and Papa Murphy is the example that goes in their staff we kind of talked about it and where would we put it and there's no clear way to go and we don't want that confusion in the future um there could always be a zoning text Amendment uh that's always on the table as well the other thing is uh should temporary Family healthc Care dwellings be be prohibited um with that uh I staff is looking just feedback on the discussion but we also stand for any questions or comments um outside of that as well thank you I will now open the floor for the Planning Commission to discuss Commissioners any comments or questions I have I have four uh questions regarding the definitions and I promise not to get into details but these are four I think substantive question questions the first is with respect to the definition of accessory structure I think we all felt somewhat constrained uh on the Smithtown Road discussion of that accessory structure and I wonder if we could perhaps solve two problems one by addressing the question of whether a Breezeway makes it an attachment and not an an accessory structure and secondly whether there should be a size limit on Accessory structures um you know the accessory structure in question two meetings ago I think it was was as large or maybe even larger than the U primary structure and I don't think that's what anybody ever intended and I think this is an opportunity for us to address that so I I just I don't know if others agree with that or not but I hope we can address that in the next revisions of the zoning code chair planning commissioner just to point out with accessory structures we uh did send notice to the paper uh to bring back accessory structures at the March 4th meeting and those items are addressed in the changes uh the Breezeway part's not in there because that's a building code and that helps with the attached part of that so that type of clarification we we looked at size limitations are also in there um I'd be more than happy to show you an advanced copy of the draft no that's fine I just want to make sure that we we address that issue because I felt like we were constrained unnecessarily last time oh and even a definition of a Breezeway versus an attachment and what it does is it'll fall underneath the performance standards uh so just looking at the accessory real quick uh we'll bring it back in more detail uh to meetings from now but uh real quick what we're looking at doing is creating basically a stop Gap measure where we want to get everything aligned we want to make sure the standards for accessory stres are put in place appropriately and then as we go through the review there a different type of formatting that we'll be looking at in uh three meetings from now two meetings two or three meetings from now I have to look at the list um is when we would be bringing that back and you see the new format kind of how that lays out but this definitely something that that staff has been looking at um and is 100% on the list and something we want to get get corrected before the building season commences if I could just want add one interesting part to the accessory structure I guess it's going to be energized this week but we uh my company developed for a county Dakota County a carport canopy and so when we started with that project in the city that it was to be built there was the need to First SE an amendment to a zoning code to allow a structure to be larger than 900 square feet so that we could get a variance to build this carport which was going to save the county energy and its operations so it was one of those where there was a constraint in size thinking about what we probably are all thinking about is structures in a property but then we're seeing it as an energy re generating resource on a parking lot so again we went through with success with the county with the city but it was a St it was one of those I don't think anyone had thought about it until it became kind of this idea that we you know that they were interested in pursuing so it's the flip side of um of how to think about that one and I don't know how frequent or commented is um but that's one of those where the 900 fot constraint became the reason for going to the city and seeking some some alternates and chair commission Commissioners the car ports the type of uses that are in there are all performance standards we have those in the code I I know it's early uh one thing that you'll notice with these definitions compared to current definitions these definitions have zero performance performance standards listed in the definition and that's done intentionally so that we can regulate it underneath our performance sections awesome you'll notice some of those changes are and there there there's only a handful but we intentionally pull those out as well as dates saying something is was legal before this date that has been removed as well because it's called a legal non-conformity which is already regulated so there's no point to have the extra information in there interesting okay but you know certainly certainly for myself looking through the entire packet and and uh my experience on the Planning Commission is that the the Planning Commission and city council uh really has to view an awful lot of this Through The Eyes of your next door neighbor right yeah and and the because your next door neighbor has a substantial investment that may be affected in in a derogatory Way by uh by what we approve at the same time so you know I think I think that's a that's that's a big item yeah that that and and you talk about preventative uh that will prevent an awful lot of awful lot of issues when we when we truly go through each individual item Joseph you want know the meeting you're talking about Joseph do you want to continue yeah um the second question is around the definition of junkyard uh which is maybe a trivial Point uh it's a it's a very broad definition um the term junk is not defined um but it caused me to wonder are we talking about um you know Auto Parts recovery places or are we talking about sanitary landfills um there wasn't a definition of landfill so I don't know if a landfill is a junkyard um and exactly what we're talking about here absolutely commissioner uh so junk junk even if you go to the state and you look at uh some of the administrative law cases and some of the other criminal cases in the state junk is defined differently there's no clear-cut answer for it so moving forward with that uh when we do look at junk and we look at that type of stuff we have to Define it by the type of use that it is items such as a junkyard junk cards isn't anything that we have listed on any of the proposed use tables so therefore it wouldn't be permitted um but because we don't have landfills um we don't have Salvage if we were to do say a junk card what we would see as a junk card would be a salvage yard for vehicles we would Define it as a salvage yard for vehicles and then set the performance standards in place on that so then do we need to Define junkyard if we're never going to permit it no we don't if just cut that out so there's no like confusion about because like what could happen then is someone's going to come back and be like well you have a definition but you don't have it as a permanent use corre I don't know maybe I'm overthinking that well I mean just merely for the for the purpose of example that was one of the things that I had noted also was was junkyard and and merely as an example is that if you if you drive down uh from Bavaria to Highway 5 and there's some homes that were there and have been there before any of the development around them occurred and and one could say junkyard or one could say an overflow of collection and and what is what is the fine line between that and and I think you know somewhere somewhere along the line um and and it would it would typically be in some of the the more established neighborhoods that have been there for you know 40 40 some years and then are developed around at the same time so I I I think it's I agree maybe we just get rid of the definition all together you don't need it chair commission weren't happy to strike the definition out um just to kind of touch on that example um uh junk will need to be defined in the municipal code will be one thing because junk will be something that will be part of our nuisance code which is the municipal code and then overflow of parking is something actually falls underneath the zoning code and performance standards um so it's going to be fun yeah so but no get get getting rid to one is a collection to someone else exactly so it is difficult to Define but uh as far as junk I got it noted on here to remove it from the code so when this would come back to be reviewed again it would still be listed but it'd be redlined out so we'd be able to see that we third one is nonconformity and this may be just my ignorance I think of a non-conformity as something that doesn't comply the definition would suggest that it's something that when begun did comply but no longer does comply with the current standard and I think it's confusing because it sort of collides with something that doesn't Collide now with the current standard um you have a pre-existing non-conformity and sort of a current nonconformity so again it may be just my misunderstanding and if if so I'll yield I just wondered if that could be clarified in some respect no commissioner absolutely um chair commission the the non-conformity actually falls under article two of the proposed language for uh the the city or excuse me the zoning code as we go through it um and it's better defin through there the regulations that are in article one is just setting the it's a setting basically the foundation the basis of how we're going to implement the code um but we do have list in here for non-conformities it'll be Article 2 division three um and we have generalized uh standards we have uses as well as structures non-conforming Lots uh and that type of stuff so we'll be bringing that back at the next planning commiss meeting for that for that language for more specific review okay I just didn't want to create confusion with current non-conformities and then the last point is water oriented accessory structures um I stumbled over this one because it's defined as a small above ground building or other Improvement which because of the relationship of its use to surface water reasonably needs to be located closer to public Waters than the normal structural setback and then examples include watercraft storage gazebos Greenhouse uh screen houses fish houses pump houses saunas and those didn't seem to me essentially um or or necessarily need needing to be close to water and within a setback um and and this one is almost a performance standard because of the definition and its examples and I just wondered if that was intentional um or if or if it was just confusing chair commission uh that it is intentional language that is language that's been set up by the DNR through the Shoreland overlay District um with that in the shorel overlay district there are certain performance standards that would have to be met but this defines what it is and what the DNR is looking at and what they've said hey as a city we're okay with you guys doing this uh big thing with the overlay districts is if we limit the number of say accessor structures to two so you can have your garage and then you're can to have a large shed right you meet meet all the standards if you're on a lake if you're a repairing property then at that point you'd be able to put in a gazebo or or fish house or Boat House something that you do to enjoy with the body of water that that you're adjacent to so it's a permissive use then and really I guess my uh concern is that it sounds like it absolutely must be within the set the the otherwise required setback generally with these the set and and don't I I prefer not to be quoted here without looking up the exact language but what it does is that there's restrictions in height or in your footprint that you can have depending on the type of use as well as how close something can be to uh the ordinary hi Watermark is where the performance standard sits um that is all that type of information comes from the Shoreland overlay which the DNR put out in 2018 and uh had cities go ahead and approve or ask for erences from it prior to the 24 40 comp plans being uh adopted basically it lets you put a gazebo closer to the water than it would let you put a garage or a storage thing right like so it sets it up for a little more flexibility it seems like it's the way I interpret it and and I don't have any problem with with that um but to say that it must be located closer to public Waters than the normal structure setback um seems to strain the definition because it doesn't absolutely have to be closer it's is that the DNR says it can be closer because it is useful to have closer to the water I don't see the word must but maybe I'm missing it the phrase is reasonably needs to be located closer to public Waters than the normal structural setback yeah it's so the way I read it is like structure means a small amount uh above ground above ground building or other improvements except stairways these things which because of its relationship reasonably needs to be so it's saying like because of its relationship to the water it needs to be closer to it because of because of it it's not saying you have to put it closer it's saying because you need this dock to be in the water it has to be closer than what a normal setback would allow you to do so it's not saying that you have to do it I it's not the way I interpret it at least and and uh chair Commissioners um that that's a that's a good summary of what it is there's 100 foot setback required for Shoreland properties from the ordinary high water mark If you were to put a gazebo or Perla or SAA right those are cons those are non structural items so it's considered Landscaping except if it has a hard surface with it so what would happen is you wouldn't be able to put anything within the 100 foot so the dnrs came out and said okay there are certain things that we're going to say is okay to put between the 100t setback Mark and the water and that's where this definition Falls the play and then in the um in the Shoreland code there's specific rules attached to that as well or can you just change from reasonably needs to May yeah I got hung up on needs that may be located closer rather than the reason reasonbly needs to we can do that I mean yeah you could we could probably reword it a little better if yeah we can take out reasonable needs um and we can put in uh maybe uh or something maybe yeah may as permitted by the DNR or whatever yeah makes sense be located closer to yeah we we'll take out the so read um starting relationship of its use to the surface water comma may be located closer to public Waters than normal um that that's definitely Red Line we can do that that cleans up the the language yeah I think my only problem with that is like the reason the reasonably needs is there is because the person who's going to use the water oriented needs to prove that whatever they're putting there has a reasonable need to be closer to the Shoreland than what's allowed I think that's why it's worded that way and just saying that out loud we can decide not to do that but I think that's kind of the reason it's worded that way is that if someone's going to come and say well I have a thing and it's a water oriented accessory they need to prove that that thing reasonably needs to be located closer to the shore than what is permitted the 100 foot setb whatever it is so that's like why it's phrased that way in my mind again if I'm if I'm in the minority I have I'm not going to sit here and and stop no it's true I I see the point and yeah it becomes a question for the person trying to be able to get that approval if it may be right I may be able to put anything level of subjectivity to well does it they would need to come to us and say it reasonably has to be this close because I can only put a 50 foot hose on it and that's you know as close as I can get to a body of water I don't know making something up right like but I mean I understand the kind of a means test term right and I think we could probably reword it a little bit to make it clear I I do agree with um the commissioner Joseph that there's probably a better way to phrase it chair commission before we make a change to IT staff will reach out to the DNR to get some clarification on on this and and bring up both points and see if there is a change that they would like us to do or what options there and we'll bring that back um to present the results of that discussion else I have a couple like General ones and I'll send these back to you guys in an email because I've like noted them redlined them myself um there's a couple spots where we have abbreviations um like I saw CB Central business district CBD a couple times and there is a definition for Central business district but it's not hyphen CBD there's a couple examples like that that I would just encourage staff to go through and comb a couple times I know that's like part of the long-term process um uh I had another General one sorry and and chair commission to that point part of that you're going to see throughout the code as it's presented there's going to be some of that type of clerical layout um as we go through because there hasn't been a final format inste of that as the code's been written over the years CBD for an example would be sometimes spelled out sometimes not sometimes hyph or hyphen or not hyphenated italicized sometimes not so it's going and figuring out that layout and that format uh the big thing uh as we go through the process is getting the the more substance thing but if there's grammatical things that come up or kind of layout things that are seen that could help show things easier as we go through 100% let us know as staff and that way we can we can take that into account as we do the updates and then my other General one is it just if this is a question or best practice question I'm not sure how to phrase this uh like the one uh commissioner Joseph just brought up like list specific things and my question is when we put lists like that under these definitions does that start to box Us in at all um even if it's just saying for example like and not all the time does it say for example you know examples may include but are not limited to um when there are lists uh Behind These Behind these definitions does that cause any long-term like the definition isn't clear enough that we have to provide examples do we need to redo the definition you know what I'm asking like I'm I'm worried about a many of these have and for example you know I just don't know if later down the road people are going to get to boxed into well that wasn't listed as an example so commissioner um and and chair that's a great that's a great question uh when we look back in some of the stuff on here what it is it falls back underneath this section of the determination of substantially similar use if we do have something that that has an example like the water oriented lists out specific things in there but a resident comes forward to say hey I I've got X idea I want to build a widget down by the by the lake but it doesn't really fit in here this would be a mode to go through to be able to get that answer without needing to go through a much larger process we can go through and ask a question and in two weeks they three weeks maybe they get the answer um so that that's kind of where that goes it as much is when we get done with this I would love to say hey this is the best zoning code that ever existed and it's going to last for 50 years we already know that if we codify in 26 in 28 we're already going to start making amendments to it because we'll have to go back through this when we start looking at the the comprehensive plan as well so no but that that is a good point but that's where some of this stuff comes in for flexibility for uh the staff and the city to do it so staff we can make determination someone doesn't like it here's a process that doesn't cost any money to the resident to be able to get an answer and I guess while we're on this so then this would be brought is that just between the applicant and staff is that something brought between so Council or an example would be you want to put the way it we'll stay with the water oriented you want to put you want to put a sawmill down by the lake right in here underneath these definitions a sawmill and as from a staff perspective isn't an enjoyment of the lake because you want to float logs out there and and you have whatever hobby right um but as staff we don't view it that way because we're taking it account everything else so what you would do is you'd be able to go to the zoning administrator and say hey I don't like that I'm being told no can you ask the Planning Commission and what happens is that you write an email or drop off a letter saying hey this what I'm try to do this is why I believe it should be allowed and this is why I believe it's a a similar use comes to the Planning Commission Planning Commission discusses it provides a recommendation to the city council and the city council determines is it or is it not a similar use okay so that's this is a method to when we do have those box in kind of situations this is the method to resolve those situations thanks for explaining that I don't have anything else I mean there's there there's an awful lot of detail that could be analyzed um but one of them one that came to mind was the definition of deck and a roofless structure and if you go uh in vicinity of 1011 uh there's a lot of enclos what would be uh probably three season um porch and and it has it's a deck like structure that uh that has a roof and I noticed uh I noticed many of them that were on the uh one of one of our new developments thought we had a yeah it's a good call I thought we had a three season though um page 19 uh chair Commissioners uh I apologize thought we had in here definition for porch that that doesn't need added so a three season a three season or a porch regardless three season four season one season whatever the case a porch is considered a deck that has a roof over it um that falls underneath and affects impervious cover for properties as well so I've oh uh so we'll make sure to get that in there but there's a difference between the definition of a deck a porch and a pergula MH and it all comes down to what type of cover is underneath and with that being said pergula is not in here either so we're going to do that as well just to help help clean that up so deck no rough porch hard Ru pergula has scre Greening or wood slats wood slats or what have you so the um and one of the uh on page 13 um Aly and by by definition uh a finger Street would fall into the category of an alley is um is finger Street not a more common term uh commissioner I believe finger Street would be a slang term when it comes to to zoning we'd be looking at is it residential is a collector is it a minor is it an arterial and those def privately owned if it's privately owned uh that'd be a private Street and that goes back to our uh comprehensive plan to where that type of stuff is defined as well as into the city Engineers Technical and design manual um and it also goes into like our subdivision ordinance and that type of stuff so that'd be down to the type of Street and then there's restrictions within the subdivision ordinance to what can be constructed on there and like I said the city engineer has to improve the design of the street as well even if it's a private uh with West Creek Village which we didn't see tonight they have private streets in there in the subdivision ordinance it specifically States different things that they can and can't do um now um and I'm on a HOA and and we just went through all of our bylaws and getting ready for for an annual meeting and one of the one of the topics I brought up was um was what would be Loosely defined as cottage industries um where where people are doing a variety of different things and one one in particular is is a guy whose whose hobby is um is working on cars and and apparently is very skillful at the same time and and so um you know for an HOA we can control that in if if it's you know if it's your next next door neighbor that's doing that that impacts you know the the neighborhood in general and and and I think that um you know address if if we can address some of those things some of what would be you know I mean uh you know there's there's a lot of of um families that are doing that are doing daycare uh child daycare and I don't I I don't know if that has to be spelled out uh in any way but if there's you know if there's a um one of them talked about in in a previous neighborhood uh his uh his whole garage was a uh was a um woodworking shop and saws going at various hours and everything else and and again you know it's neighborhood it be becomes really the key because these people are are buying with the expectation with with a defined expectation and so you know not not to use the word control but I think it's I think it becomes more preventative um in in in general terms and now would be now would be the opportune time to address some of those things so chair commission uh to your point commissioner uh when we look at the schedule where we have article 3 District regulations all as well as the residential we'll be coming up with looking at that um I'd be more than happy to talk to you about uh What uh cottage industry laws are with the Department of Agriculture compared to uh daycare which is actually regulated by a completely different department at the state level uh but Cottage the cottage laws for an example would be somebody who bakes cookies and sells cookies out of their home but there's regulations on deliveries there's regulations on traffic there's a health standard that goes with it and there's all these different things uh mechanics that's a mechanic shop being used for uh to work on other people's Vehicles is currently prohibited underneath our code and would be further prohibited underneath our residential zoning code um but when we these are good things to bring up when we get into um two the two weeks from or sorry two meetings from now three meetings from now and four meetings from now um in addition with that uh staff is fully prepared to take those meetings and extend them between multiple meetings and not rush through anything we want to make sure we get the best bite out of an apple when we started one of one of the um May maybe a bit of humor in the whole thing but uh one one of them was a comment in a mediumsized um outstate Town um a structure for poultry in the backyard and you know while we don't anti anticipate that um but it you know certainly it's very common in many many other parts of the world and and it's something that that you know um again you know I look at it as preventative um positions that we can take one one other thing just if I could one other thing just real real briefly um a uh an apartment building uh three plus families um is is that a um by by by definition is that how how a an apartment would be defined commissioner correct uh there are there's Minnesota rules I'm sorry you can't really see this on camera at all a small print but we uh we looked at that and then we also verified it with the Minnesota rules underneath the building code uh so you have single family two family three family and once you get above that three family it gets regulated as an apartment as a commercial structure at that point as far as building code's concerned but we still treat it underneath the residential code uh right now it'd be under R4 um but yeah yeah yeah I mean as long as as we have that definition that's that's fine that's fine with me I have a question basically under alteration say alteration means major alteration to a sign okay so um chair uh the alteration uh the definition laid out means any major alteration to a sign which shall not be included in routine maintenance painting or what have you so that alteration is specific to signs because that definition is used specifically within the sign ordinance part when we look at alterations to a building those are considered remodels or additions or subtract or subductions from the building so the definition relies specifically towards where kind of fits within the code um we could expand that if uh I mean I mean I guess I'm just saying like couldn't you call it sign alteration we can defin that's a that's a great thing to that point I was pulling this up there's a structural alterations already there so be more consistent some of this stuff is just kind of minor stuff um like where you have bolt house um B house everything else is a toal sized that's not a toal sized um and then I got uh commissioner means commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources County Commissioner what I had down well I mean there's different types of Commissioners that's we're planning Commissioners absolutely chair um so that definition only gets used within our Shoreland overlay so it only gets used with reference to the DNR and that's a definition that got pulled out of the Chand ordinance um as far as that goes we can definitely take a look at adjusting that let me just get it in front of me real quick if it's only used in that section can you do a definition only in that section or does it need to be in the larger the the goal is to put all the definitions within one okay got code I I thought you said earlier there'd be some specific got I misund yeah there there there can be in certain areas there might need to be that specific but the the ultimate goal is get everything into one place and that way when we do make adjustments we're not running into where uh decks were very common where it got changed the DNR changed their definition of deck to make them an impervious structure and it was still considered uh or sorry a perious structure but then still considered impervious in general code so it's it's trying to avoid things like that as far as commissioner with this what we can do is we could find real quick we just call it DNR commissioner or just sure straight out put it out or actually a better way to do it would be that in the sh land ordinance we could just write out the entire title and call it good and avoid all that type of confusion and that way we don't have to list out planning commissioner County Commissioner State commissioner for the wiet programs or all all that type of stuff um it'd be up to the uh the Planning Commission on which way they would like to go with that I'm fine with whatevers you want I just you're you're taking a broad term and dropping it down to a DNR um I mean if you can remove it that's fine or if you want to put it in the Shoreland we it it's just easy to write it out as we go through it that's that's fine if if the the Planning Commission is okay with it we'll just take it out and then when we do get to the shorel um we'll make sure to dispel it out fully and I didn't bring my post but that's okay um I one one other oh um I got quite a few here okay um under gas pumps I got reprimanded man years ago about gas um you got gas or fuel I mean diesel fuel is not gas and gas is not diesel fuel um whether you want to what you want to call it I'm just throwing it out there um I know it's a general term people use gas but you know if it's um so with the uh chair commission with uh you saying gas or saying fuel or diesel or anything like that we could we could definitely underneath gas L out these are all the things will consider gas the other thing to look at is now you'd have to list out everything one advantage that we do have is within law is that you can use common definitions and I'm not going to try I'm not trying to stop on bobber or anything like that and the City attorney but there are different sections in there this is a pretty common thing so uh to fall under simplest way to put it is if you drive a diesel truck uh do you say you're going to go to the diesel station or the gas station if you drive a vehicle that uses comp uh liquid natural gas you say I'm going to the the the LNG station or are you going if you're going to get propane are you going to the propane station so it'd be it'd be something to think about like that as well it's definitely something that we can we can expand if it's more comfortability but I mean you could sell you know like cin fever sells propane but not gasoline or diesel fuel um so uh with with that you're talking uh a large tank you go up to fill propane tanks but it's not it's not a gas it's not a service station or gas station right that that's a that's a completely different type of use is where where I'd classify that underneath that's I'm just just throwing stuff out there chair planning Commissioners anything I say I I promise it is just the discussion is we want to get this right and if we can have the discussion once maybe twice to get it to where we're all comfortable it'll make all our lives easier um I just want to make sure that uh uh we're looking at both sides of of any type of thing that we're looking at so that when we make the notes and make the changes we bring it back and we can say hey we discussed it we talked about it both ways here's what what we came up with um another one ground grade means the elevation grade closest to the sign to which reference is made and that one I had to Google I'm like what is ground grade and it says ground grade is also known as land grading or earthw work process of reshaping the ground to a desire elevation MH but again it references sign versus is and maybe it's just is there ground grading in a development that doesn't have a sign a chair yes there is yes there is that is that is a good catch going through that yes it could relate to a sign because basically it's just talking about the dirt but you have slope requirements when you build a home from your home so now you're talking about the ground grade there and near whatever so uh um in the only spot that we use the term within our zoning code is within the S ordinance however we needed to line up with the municipal side as well and make sure that it aligns with all the rules above us um I'm not sure trying to think is it would involve height have a building Weist you can look at it yeah let we'll we'll take a look at it because it's going to affect other definitions and performance standards if we change it or remove it so we'll take a look and see what effect it has um um so I will another one I got is the recreational vehicle dwelling uh it says 400 feet or less I don't know what some of these recreational vehicles are up to now some of these big motor homes or um I I you know what because they seem to be getting bigger and bigger and they you know have their fold outs and and so forth and um are you considering is that too small is it chair Commissioners I I kind of knew this one was going to come up between the zoning code and the municipal code we have recreational vehicles we have special vehicles and we have language that if we decided to just swap out the words it wouldn't make sense between the two so this is one of those definitions that B more or less is a placeholder until we get it figured out to how we want the language between the municipal side as well as the zoning side the intent behind this is when you look at it um just had it wrong page but I do got it I got a note here actually that says F recreational vehicle and special vehicles because we need those to align um and part of that is because the last time we codified was 1998 some of the language is from 1975 so you got 50 years worth of phrasing and and how things are done so um but it is noted to get that fixed already um and then repetitive loss means flood related damages uh sustained to structure to separate occasions um yeah is there a way to add tornadoes or something or is that just something that definition is specifically used within our flood plane ordinances okay so the way that it's defined works for the flood plane and since that's only place it's used it doesn't necessary doesn't say that we need to expand it if we start saying tornadoes and things like that um then we're stepping on some more FEMA things um and that might be outside the scope of what the city does or the city is responsible for and it's definitely outside the scope of Staff though if it's something we need to do we we will learn it I guess the only other thing I really have is if there was a way to consolidate all the signs under one sub it it it shares that in and Planning Commission is definitely something we looked at when we looked at the side ordinance um I know that my predecessor was working on the side ordinance um and it still took four months five months after I started in May to to bring It Forward after it got Rewritten was that third person third person to rewrite it in in a year and a half so it's one like streets they're they are all grouped by streets um I was looking at but more of that's just the way it's it's alphabetical that way so that's why it comes in under streets and yeah and the whole thing is alphabetical but to me if you wanted but it was like Street minor Street or you know principal um you might be able to think about just organizing it based on that sign and and then what it is then you'd have to change all the codes so where it says yeah Dynamic sign have say sign Dynamic versus in the sign code which you could take this document and throw it in a PDF and search for sign and it'll pop up every sign oh it's yeah that's you really wanted to search for whatever you can search for it so um another one that that also becomes uh part of the preventative theory is uh temporary and um by definition who's whose definition are we going to use so someone says well it's but it's temporary uh commissioner that's a great question so in here we have uh definition of temporary accessory structure temporary display temporary sign so we have three different Temporaries list into there what happens is when we go into the performance standards we're going to say your temporary for this is a limit of x amount of days x amount of hours we would set that limit in the performance standards excellent thank you any other questions comments yeah one one of the other ones um is that I I don't know um I'm not aware I'm not aware that that we have um that we've had to deal with solar panels and if if we haven't today we will tomorrow at the same time so so again you know that in my estimation that falls into uh now would be the time to address that I know I saw the term once here it's called solar collector I think in here yeah solar collectors page 33 then you go from there to wind so wind turbines are and I know some of those are prohibited in the city but so chair Commissioners um if you look on here if you look at article 9 underneath alternative energy that's where we're going to have solar regulations where we're going to have ground pump regulations t uh turbine regulations and that type of stuff but will that it be in the definitions yeah do those need to be defined then does turbine and all of those need to be defined if we don't I don't see turbine is a so if if it's considered that's a question you guys can take that away like I don't know and and that's one of the reasons we're doing the the definitions we're going to add to and take away as we go through this sure so that is a that is an excellent point um that would be like I think I think I remember seeing EV charger some yeah and and that's because that's specific use but if you put up a wind turbine do we have a do we have a definition for that right now no so that's an excellent point of saying what is this yeah um yeah cuz if I go throw one up in my backyard self make one versus you know the big Behemoth ones like putting some sort of definition I think it's probably going to be smart we may have not get to what that definition is until we hit article 9 but we're probably going to need one and this is iterative too when you get into the teeth of article whatever 119 you may go back and add definitions yes yeah absolutely that that's part of where flexibility comes from We're we're going to yeah we're going to go back and forth um one of the goals with this just to help with wrapping everybody's head around how big this is one of the ideas is once we get through everything to bring back a complete red line that's noted for the Planning Commission to take a look at and then taking uh a two three meetings off of even talking about the zoning code to give everybody a chance to go through on their own time uh to see if there's anything else they want to talk about and getting those changes done um though those St though as staff we have our goal timelines of when we want to hit certain criterias and marks that would be best case scenario drive forward we already know that that's not going to happen so just because we were going to bring this back at the L or to the last meeting and that didn't happen because we weren't prepared for it yet so there's a variety of of fun interesting things with this um I I would like to point out if there's questions about specifics I do have a list uh with uh just some real quick what is it type of stuff of the layout of the proposed zoning code uh it's the same thing that was put in the into the packet for tonight but it's got a little bit more detail and it's the entire proposed structure of the new code not just what we'd be talking about the night I just don't want to make the the document fully public yet because this has changed multiple times and it will change again um but if anybody wants to take a look at it or discuss it I'm more than happy to provide it so where were we at on the uh temporary Family healthc Care dwelling I think the city has opted out previously and I think that makes sense it has become a standard apparently I would say we continue to opt out until they require us to opt in yeah I don't know that we really want to get in no because I mean then there's also HOA different requirements that having a secondary building on a lot yeah and again what you consider tempor what's temporary is it three years is it 10 years is it um what's the definition to it what's the definition for you know until that person passes away and then what do you do with the structure yeah you're supposed to be able to haul it away in a one ton pickup oh I'm just going to change it into a Sheed or y alternative structure that is now not a temporary Family Health Care dwelling um I think we're opening a lot up if we try to regulate is it is it not and how do you regul who's going to regulate and make sure that it's no longer being used as a temporary family drawing care drawing and I guess if if we can continue to opt out I would continue I would recommend that we continue to opt out I me is there a vote on this one that's what I was just gonna ask do we need a motion or I didn't think this was a discussion only everything tonight is completely discussion only there's no official actions taken the official action that we taken by the Planning Commission would be if there's something specific like if this is something so this isn't in our code right now this is something that you said hey we need to have today and get it done then You' provide direction to staff to say hey can you guys get a public hearing scheduled for it and then what we would do is we would put it into the current code um which is fine because that's one of the one of the nice things that we got going on one of the Beautiful Things is though we have a new structure a new way layouts and all these amendments and all these additions and things getting pulled and moved and whatnot it doesn't preclude us from making changes to the existing code and changing our zoning code before we do a full update uh the one motion that would be done would be on the entire zoning code as a whole unless the Planning Commission would want to make um uh 11 motions so it that but that's not something that staff's going to ask for for several months I mean it makes sense to do it all at the end because like we just talked about the definitions we're going to go back and edit stuff as we get through them all totally agree to be like oh yeah remember that thing six articles ago we're going to need to edit that now and we haven't and staff has not published any public hearing stuff any even if there was a motion it wouldn't be able to legally hold up because we haven't done any of the legal aspects that we have to to be able to make amendments to the zoning code we will We Will We Will it'll be a nice big document a lot of communication stuff going out a lot of questions we're going to get later on this year but for now it's getting our basis in place step number one in general then we get to the detail we got we got one more section to go which is which is Administrative and enforcement at the next meeting uh that's going to include things such as the zoning Administration the zoning map the amendment process public hearings Board of adjustments non-conformities land use permits uh are the big things on there um so there there's a lot of different stuff uh that's going to go there but that's still a foundational piece to the operation of uh the city code or excuse me of the zoning code as well as the role uh that everybody has as planning Commissioners and even part of it staff's role in that interaction ction I know we're wrap like nice job guys I know this is a lot of Works probably really tedious hopefully you all got your eyes checked a couple times afterwards and uh yeah nice work it's just the beginning yeah it is but this is more fun than trees uh trees will be coming back probably around the July August time frame just to give give you a heads up that's going to be part of the subdivision code which even part of that with the municipal code we're looking at changing that structure and where things are laid out with within there so it's um it's fun I enjoy this I know Brian loves this he likes reading all my notes so so your question about the Papa Murphy's type are you looking for suggestions it was it was just an example to go back because a question came up up that we've never done this where we put in sorry I went past it uh where we've never had this in our code okay we've never put something that says in there hey in our code now we added which hadn't been in there saying if it's not specifically listed then it's not a permitted use why previously it would have been it's close or something like that could have been done going all the way back to 1975 probably going back to 1957 and then 61 when the Planning Commission was formed we about that time frame um but what that example is is Papa Murphy is can you clearly Define it as a use listed in our use table if the answer is no then is it close enough to a use where it's worth bringing to the Planning Commission and the city council to say it is going to be regulated underneath this use and if the answer is no it doesn't fit anything then the then the applicant or the whoever's asking would then need to do a zoning text Amendment go through that process so this is a it's a quicker process that doesn't cost um any applicant uh Financial strain just cost time uh to see if they can get an answer is a staff we would love to give one but we just enforce the code um it's up to the Planning Commission and the city council to tell us what that code should say and what that community standard should be I think like personally I'm in support of this but I think I'd like to see like a little bit more structure into like what what are the steps and like some boundaries around it um because I could see this going south also because if we say it's substantially similar use again everything we do here sets a precedent so as soon as you do one it's going to set a precedent for the next one and so I think we need to have a little bit of a formal process for us to incorporate this into the the code is my opinion my feedback to understand a little bit more about how that looks and and what that what precedent we'd set if we approved one of these and commissioner the way the way that it would work is um I'd say I want to put a pop of Murphy's in right okay can't clearly Define it to what it is it's not a restaurant because you don't sit down and eat there we don't cook food there it's not a commissary kitchen where we're sending out finished product or anything like that so fits into those gray areas between the definitions I would go to to Brian and and uh and Jen and I'd say hey know it doesn't really fit anywhere can you tell me what it's supposed to be staff would then turn around come to the Planning Commission and be like hey we have this applicant they're in the audience this is what they're looking at doing do you see it fitting in any of these categories and You' say okay it's close enough and we think that based on what they're going to do it's regulated that way you'd provide a recommendation to or not or the other way you say no that recommendation goes to city council the city council then takes an official action to say this specific use at this spe so that if it's a Papa Murphy's it is a takeen baked pizza that if you create a take and baked pizza it's going to be regulated as a sitdown restaurant meaning it's going to have to meet all the performance standards of a sit down restaurant or it is a commissary kitchen it's how it's going to be regulated needs to meet all the performance standards of that commissary kitchen or however it's defined so that's where go it comes down to the council making that determination of if it's there we and we get put in writing and it gets recorded at least in the minutes if not by resolution and and so like again so where my thought goes is this let's stick with the Papa Murphy's example so then the next applicant who comes is a take and bake pie I don't know Pi your poison yep now we've set a precedent of okay take and bakes are this so that point why would like at what point does do enough of these substantial similar uses become code and get written into definitions like that's I think what we should look at from like a more global perspective of like we do that one like what are we saying I I can provide a a direct example at the chairing commission when IND dos me for a couple minutes uh a few years ago when I was working with the the City of Newport we had a business come in and what they did is they um they were lawn care they weren't Landscaping they were LA Care they would fertilize your property they'd make sure that you know your flowers are still alive and your grass is really nice and green but they weren't putting in patios or walkways or anything like that so it didn't really it didn't fit in the Landscaping but it didn't fit in a retail use either or in a Professional Services definition so what we did as a city after a couple meeting is we determined hey the use isn't substantially close enough anything we already have in that case we actually did a zoning text amendment to create the use so if it's not close enough or it becomes something that is going to become repetitive the option is always there to do a zoning text amendment to get that definition in to get the regulation use within the code um that could run into some non-conforming things but if all of a sudden we have 20 different businesses that want to do a take and bake style right then at that point Point well there's a need for the community there's a want is the policy window available to something that the city would want to entertain that and then at that point Z text Amendment the city has the right to say no we don't have to say yes we can say no and if we say no to the process of we're just asking the question to now we're officially applying for a change and then even at that point the city can still say no it's it's it's it's it's our city unless there's a statute or federal law that that overrules it that makes sense thanks for clarifying the text Amendment that's a good point absolutely you just pop something in my head um where does a a food truck fall into play so food trucks um they're interesting so food trucks a good example of food truck would be taking a look at minneapolis's code which is fun and exciting because it's massive and covers anything and everything that we could ever think of being this far away however food trucks we could Define specifically what a food truck is we could and then we could set it up as a primary or secondary use or excuse me as an accessory use and then we can put performance standards on it we could take the method that uh the city Winona does where they say hey if you want to have a food truck cool cool absolutely you got to get a permit by the way you also need to have a hardstand building within the community to be able to operate a food truck outside of special events and things like that so there is flexibility there's different ideas to do it um but when we look at development would we develop space within the city that we would want to have food trucks or have some type of food truck event would that be something that um the Communications Department is looking at or or even Community Development or with something the Cil would want to do or any type of anybody else within the community or residents or the Planning Commission whoever so those would be different things but if somebody wanted to operate a food truck in town underneath our current rules it's not permitted because we don't have it listed out they could then go through a zoning text amendment to allow it as far as allowing food trucks as part of an event or or something along that lines that would fall underneath a City license which would then fall underneath the licensing section that we're going to that we're going to modify in the municipal code so it's I just know like you see them I mean Jess has got a few shock's got a few where they they parked in the parking lot and they're there all year long they're not I mean they're mobile but and they might move but if if they're on private property it's regulated different because at that point point it's not it's not necessarily an accessory use to the business that's there but it's not a primary use of the of the partiel either so at that point that'd be something that we would look at on the municipal side to to say it's permitted or it's not permitted if we want to permit it as an accessory use then that becomes a zoning code thing and then we can set those performance standards but we can do something similar to Performance standards within the municipal code as well so just because it doesn't fit NE within the in the zoning code the feedback is great because it helps when when we do meetings at the staff level uh with the minicipal code and we're sending it out to all the Departments we're saying hey there's this idea there's this idea and how do you think we could regulate it or how do you think do we need to regulate it do we need to license it do we need to do do whatever how would we do that process and so on and so forth so this this is absolutely great discussion um if anybody wants to talk about zoning cut offline I could talk for days on it somay in a different uh establishment we can do that any other comments or questions about this item tonight uh this item does not require formal motion so we'll move on to the miscellaneous section of our agenda agenda staff you have any miscellaneous items uh yes chair and Commissioners just a few updates for everyone the Rogers Behavioral Health application that you saw at your last meeting was withdrawn uh so city council did not consider that application at their last meeting uh looking ahead at our February for not 14th 18th meeting um article two as Travis mentioned one down 12 to go we're doing great great discussion question tonight uh we're also going to look at the West Creek Village preliminary plat which we continued the public hearing for this evening uh as well as a pool variance and an outdoor dining ordinance so next one's going to be a long one commissioners adjourn got a motion to adjourn second a motion second all those in favor I I oppose thank you the motion carries we are adjourned for