And for those of you that came from the other the other side, if you already started looking at the minutes, I just went ahead and dropped those in the chat so that you'll have them available to review when we get to that that part of our presentation. >> You're live. >> All right, I'm going to go ahead and
start recording. Brian, go ahead and start cloud recording. >> Okay, got it. >> Give me one moment. >> Okay. You good, Brian? >> Yeah, I'm just trying to record here.
Okay. Um, I just need to reclaim host. Hold on. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's connecting to the server. We are now recording on the cloud.
>> Okay. Perfect. Well, welcome again everyone and for those watching via live stream, we apologize for the the delay. There was a bit of technical difficulties that we have since addressed. So, uh we can go to the next
slide and so we will so I am Tiier Booker Dwire the deputy superintendent of student outcomes and school quality. We are going to begin with some opening remarks, introduction of guests and approval of the agenda, minutes and uh
public comments before transitioning into the core of our agenda and and are there any guests? Uh Robin, I'm just looking at you. Are there any other guests on the call?
>> There's nobody on the call that is not a routine person for our team. There's no new guests. It's less regular members. >> Okay, perfect. And so I will turn it over to uh Dr. Jessica Jones for
approval of the agenda and minutes. >> Morning. Um so I will say before we move into the approval of the agenda as presented, um one of the items that's listed on here would be item number one and it's under the description of review
of new assessment opportunities. Um, I do want to note that we already voted on that. Uh, we did have a piece of public comment back in the fall, but I think this may have been a typo >> on the agenda.
>> Yes, >> it is not a typo. In our in a couple of our meetings, there was request for us to bring it back with Malik to provide some more information. So, it is not a typo. We did already vote for it. we're bringing it back to um provide that
extra information and allow the team to make another decision. That that was that came out of our last meeting where there was a request in one of the uh committee meetings to bring this back with more information. >> So that's why it's not included in the
actual agenda because it does say ABtail previously presented material at the request. >> So it came from subcommittee is what you're saying. >> Yes, ma'am. So, is there a way that you can edit it to say they came from subcommittee and not the full committee because committee did actually vote on
these items and we did vote them down. That's why I wanted to clarify that. >> Yeah, it can be edited for sure. >> Okay. With that being said, I'll open the floor. >> I heard I heard somebody
>> I'm sorry. There was just whenever just a minute ago there were multiple conversations going on. I I couldn't pick up between who was who was talking. So sorry about that. >> Okay. So I'll open the floor to
a motion and a second of the agenda with the uh modification as as requested and acknowledged. >> So moved. Andy Cox moves >> Susan Trainer second.
>> Susan seconded. Is there any discussion? >> Hearing none, we'll proceed to vote. All those in favor signify by saying I >> I >> I >> I. >> Any oppose? Like sign.
Any abstensions? Motion passes. Next, we have approval of the minutes. Uh, as Rob indicated, he's put those the link to the minutes uh inside the chat to give you an opportunity to review. Uh, this too requires a motion and a
second. Susan Trainer so moved. >> Douglas Arnold second. >> Thank you. So Susan Trainer moves. Doug Douglas Arnold seconds. Is there any discussion? Hearing
and seeing none, we'll proceed to vote. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> Opposed? Any abstensions? The motion passes. Uh, next up we have public comment. So
Rob, I'll yield the floor back to you regarding public comment. >> Thank you. U we do not have public comment. I will go ahead and put the guidelines for public comment up for those to view even though we do not have public comment today. Um I want to note that um the in the future or at least
for now I will be the point of contact for public comment. We've changed it on our documents and on our website. Um, Alice has retired and so we do not want all the public comment to go to her in her retirement. Um, so it will now come
to me for now and I've put my email and my contact information up. But as we have no public comment as of today, uh, we are okay to move on to the next phase of our agenda if so desire.
hearing. >> Go ahead, Dr. Jones. >> Okay, we'll go ahead and move on with presentations. First on the agenda is Mr. Malik McKinley, review of new assessment opportunities as it is listed. >> Good morning, Mr. McKinley. I will pull
up your presentation unless you want to drive it yourself. >> I can certainly do so. Okay, I'm going to stop sharing and let you share. >> Okay. >> Good morning. I assume everyone can see my screen.
>> Yes, sir. >> And I I put it in presentation mode. So hopefully it's larger on screen. >> It's just >> we do not see it. >> Yeah, your individual screen. >> Yeah, it's not it's not showing presentation mode.
>> No. >> And I'm watching you click it, too. >> Uh, give me one second. now it's in presentation. >> Okay, great. All right, I know that there I I believe
there are a few new um board members here. Um, so I just wanted to take some time just to kind of walk through just a little bit of of uh who we are. Uh, again, my name is Malik McKinley. I
serve as a director of educational partnerships at ETSS. I've been at ETS for uh almost 15 years and work with the state of Virginia. So if there are folks on the call that uh need a contact at um
at ETSs, I I can serve as that main contact to put you in contact with any information data or um other services that you may need from ETSs. As I move through the slides, I just want to make sure I am on my um content
slide, table of content. Okay. All right. So, as we walk through just a little bit, just real quickly for anyone um that doesn't know who ETSs is, we are a nonprofit organization founded in 1947. Our mission is to advance quality
and equity and education for all people worldwide. And um for folks in the room, you know us uh from developing the practice program as well as um other tests such
as GRE. Um, we developed the SAT and ACT for college board. We developed TOEFL and TOIC exams for foreign language, excuse me, for um students outside of uh the country who want to come here to
work or come here to go to school. uh 50 million assessments are developed, administered, and scored uh every year here at ETSs inund 180 countries in over 9,000 locations.
As we talk about the practis program, we are in about 40 plus states including the state of uh Virginia and we serve as the main uh lensure program in the state of Virginia. We support educators on
their journey from uh truly in inception all the way through to professional development as you think about some of the assessments, products and services that we offer in the practice program. So, we're continuing to think about all the tools that we can bring to bear to
help uh candidates uh to to first of all build interest in the field and then also to help candidates um along their journey to metriculate through their journey and then also becoming a teacher of record and then also supporting them um to maintain them in the classroom or
to keep them in the classroom on a long-term basis. We are we're here in Virginia to to to help solve all of the needs as it relates to teachers and that's um that's one of our main goals as we work with
the department of education. So in terms of what practice is um again just very quickly for anyone that may be new we are the lensure program teacher lensure program in um the state of Virginia. Uh, as I mentioned, we're in 40 plus states. We offer exams from the
core academic skills for educators exam to um all of the lensure tests, which would be a biology test, a mathematics test, social studies, elementary education, special education, the whole battery of practice kind of covers every single
possible academic area, foreign languages, etc. Um and then we are um we we also operate um when you think about the practice program, we also have um tests that focus on actual teaching
performance. So um if if that is ever of interest in the state of Virginia, there are a lot of different um products and services that we can bring to Virginia beyond um traditional practice tests. For example, we offer a pro-ethica exam
um assessment which focuses on um the ethics educator ethics that candidates have to have as they're building u their understanding of the field. So there are a lot of different pieces of the practice program. I believe we are here
um to talk about a couple assessments real quickly. And um one thing to note as we talk about a few tests here. The first one is school librarian. >> Malik, are you advancing your
presentation as you're talking? >> Yes, I am. >> Because it's it's it's still on the contents page. I I I got the feeling that you were seeing multiple. Is everybody else seeing the contents page? >> Yeah. >> Yes. That's the only one that we've seen so far.
>> Ah, okay. All right. Well, these were intro slides anyway. Um, how's how's this here? >> We're now on school librarian. >> Okay. All right. Um,
so with the school librarian 5312, um, overall changes and and I know we've had this, uh, discussion before, so if there's anything that, um, and so this will kind of be a refresher for folks that were in the room several months ago. If there are um any questions or
anything that you may need after this kind of brief discussion, I can certainly turn back to our assessment development team or our research team to pull any additional information to help you uh understand a little bit more about these few exams here. But the
purpose of school librarian, it's aligned um align the test with the updated standards, terminology, and trends. And that was one of the that's one of the main goals or main reasons why we made uh changes to this
particular test. Updated terminology and there were changes to the category waitings for this exam aligned to the latest standards. And as you see with the waiting um there are various categories that
changed waiting. So that changed the number of questions. The overall time for this exam is 120 minutes. So as you think about some of excuse me, as you think about some of
the changes um in this assessment, we had changes in waiting. Um, as you think about the shift in some parts of this assessment, um, we did
change some of the terminology. And I'm not just going to I'm not going to read everything on screen here, but, um, there were name changes to categories. Um, there were addition and subtractions of content of specific content in this
assessment. And this again, this redesign work was in alignment with the American Association of School Librarians. As you can see on screen, you're looking at the alignment to
national standards and see the coverage from each individual area. And on screen you also have the study companion here. So as I mentioned in terms of the overall categories
you see the content categories listed here from program administration to professional development, leadership and advocacy. Number of questions approximate percentage of the exam. This exam is 2
hours long. It is computer delivered unless there is a need for an additional accommodation and there are 120 questions. We held uh the last multi-state study for this exam was in 2021 with 11 panelists in eight
states and there was a recommendation of 63 out of 100 raw score points which equated to a 154 on this particular test
and it's currently used by 28 states and territories. passing rate thus far is uh just below 90%. And um Rob, as we talk about these few exams, do you want to just kind of walk
through the same slides here? >> Why why don't we pause for just a second to see if there's any questions about the first one? >> Um just just to provide that opportunity if anyone wants to stay focused on library before they go to theater.
Does anybody have any questions or comments that they'd like to volunteer? I'll jump in real quick, Rob. Um just with a comment because I was in that breakout session um where a few of the members at that time had asked uh just
for some followup about the assessments and part of the focus was um and Malik I was wondering if you could just speak even just to the process of this um it was you know what process does ETSs go through to align the assessments to the
standards and I know you showed those national standards how is that um also kind of connected to or looked at in the scope scope of Virginia standards. So maybe just a basic kind of overview because that should overlap for all three assessments and in in the breakout session that we had that was that primary concern was okay we we got you
know the breakdown of each of the three assessments. Um there was you know a good amount of deliberation in that that meeting and then a few of the members had just said you know we'd be curious to know what that process looks like and and you know what are some guarantees that they are aligned to the Virginia
standards and that was kind of the crux of bringing it back. So I don't know if you want to speak to that process a little bit if you can. >> Sure. Certainly. Um so overall in the in the test development process we start with national standards. So, our
assessment development team brings together uh a group of experts, a group of K through 12 um teachers as well as faculty members from from uh leading universities from across the nation to
sit on what we call a national advisory committee. And that committee's main job is to look at the national standards for a particular field. So in the case of school librarian, they're looking at whatever the latest standards are from
that academic discipline and then they start to build or develop the test from there. But everything kind of starts with standards and as they in that initial meeting um they're looking at those particular standards and then they build out what are called knowledge and
skills statements which are the most important statements for that particular field. What? And and really the question is okay, what is most important for a teacher to know um as it relates to the field of school librarian or as it
relates to the field of theater. Um, and then once that's decided, we send out a survey to thousands of teachers across the nation so that they can also give us additional feedback as to what they believe is important because a part of
our validity process is to make sure that we have input from education stakeholders across the nation. Um, so a as we're continuing to do that, that information comes back to ETSs. We continue to process that. we
bring that committee back together. They're looking at standards again to see if there's anything that may have changed between the first time that they looked at the standards and this u follow-up meeting. Um, and then we start to kind of build the blueprint of the
exam, which is what you it it's kind of like the scaffolding that you see in our study companion. That's kind of what's built out from our assessment development team, but it all traces back to the national standards. um if there
if if there is a need for a specific alignment from um whatever the Virginia standards are, if they deviate greatly from the national standards, then um I can reach out to our system development department, have them uh look at
whatever Virginia specific standards you have, align that um show an alignment between that and also these few exams. exams and then I can share that with you all before your next meeting if that is
um the piece that may be most critical here. But if there's alignment between Virginia standards in the field and also the national standards then there's complete alignment with the national standards or or note that there's complete alignment between the national
standards and ETSS's standards for this particular exam. Mr. McKinley. Um, if and Dr. Jones, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I do recall when we had this first presentation,
uh, discussion led to, and it was not just for theater, it was actually for each one of these that there are skillbased um, standards that we have as well as knowledgebased standards. And some of
the concern was that if this theater or any of the others was added, we would have a gap between the skills that you would have to be required to meet now through our current system if if we went
to just an assessment. Um, we do have other areas that that have the same issue, but is there anything you can say about the design of the test that would maybe either clarify or confirm that there are skills that a
librarian would need to have but aren't necessarily reflected in the assessment that they would take because I know that that was part of the holdup before. Dr. Jones, do you recall is that am I accurate on that? >> You are. Most of that skills base did
revolve around safety standards. >> Yeah, definitely for uh for the A it did for sure. >> Right. And for theater, you're right. For for the the the set design and stuff like that. >> Um but even even uh beyond that, I think there was some discussion about
>> so let's say I'm an English teacher and I want to get my theater license. if we have this assessment, all I do is go take this test and now I've been trained as an English teacher, but I've passed the theater test. What is the
gap? What is missing that that we should be aware of when we make a decision like this? >> Uh, I mean that this is it sounds like a policy decision. I mean, there are states that have um that have add-on
endorsements where all you do where all you have to do is take two or three courses or take an assessment. Um and that's always, you know, from a state policy perspective depending on what the teacher shortage uh issues are in state.
Um, you know, obviously taking a test is different than taking coursework, but uh the amount of knowledge needed to pass an assessment, I imagine, um, a candidate or a teacher would have to
have from coursework or from their professional experience in order to to pass. But there's there's likely some things that are in courses that will not show up on the exam if that is the if that's the question here.
when you consider some of these exam there there's a lot of content on these exams but if you're actual if you're actually talking about um you know pedigogy or other types of practices that may not be demonstrated in a great
deal on this test then you know there might be need for coursework as a as a another option here with with adding on endorsements but I don't know what the I don't know what the endorsement process is like in Virginia, if it if there are
other exams where, you know, if I'm a biology teacher, can I just add on a chemistry endorsement without taking coursework? Um, >> there are and and there but in a lot of those cases, it is not a heavily hands-on I guess maybe um
>> Mr. Gil >> to to that point and that that's where the the conversation got extremely robust. We have a lot of hands-on demonstrate physical tasks that need to be accounted for. And and to Mr.
Gailstrap's question, you know, the test is one thing. You being able to perform a task physically and demonstrate your acumen for that test to the proficiency level is the other component. Uh we see that in in egg, we see that in theater.
I think part of his question was do we do we see that in library sciences? like what are those physical performance tasks that that librarian needs to have be able to show mastery of to say yes you can do this um and then report the
far the part of having safety issues. So if if I have to show performance in um mechanics, specifically uh plasma welding, does this test actually show that I know how to do that and cover all the safety associated with it? And I'll
just use that from an a standpoint. you see that also in in something to some extent teched, but then it was brought up back in the fall um about theater arts and and I'm glad that we stopped here because of the set design in the amount of work that has to be done and
having an add-on doesn't necessarily demonstrate your ability to do those tasks uh proficiently or if there's not any other questions about Um, go ahead and continue on, Miss McKinley. >> Certainly.
So, as we're looking at um, uh, theater, some of the same um, details here real quickly. Two hours, 120 selected response questions delivered in a computer. um deliver format. Um
you see the waitings here between categories, curriculum, instruction and classroom practices, creating and performing, production, history, literature and criticism. Um, as you can see, the alignment between
theater and the national core arts standards. As you dig in a little bit in the study companion, you'll see um the content categories listed here.
And you know, I mean, a part of this conversation, you know, I I can reach back out to our assessment development department to ask them to provide specific examples from these three tests
if that is helpful so that you can see beyond because I think everybody has access to the study companion and the sample test questions. Um, so two two things I want to note here. One is I can provide interactive practice tests for all three of these exams so that folks
that have questions about the actual content on the test, they can see the actual questions that are um not necessarily on the exam, but questions that um are part of the review process for these three academic areas.
Um and then I can also ask our assessment development department to pull um a few questions from from the test so that you can see how um classroom practice is implemented in
this particular exam. Ron, did you Okay. Um, so so that that's that's just something that we can um take note of here. Number one, um if if someone can forward me the vid the
specific Virginia standards that you would like to have aligned to these three tests, then I can have that prepared before next meeting. And then number two, if there's interest in actually looking at s at um test questions from these three tests, then I
can pull interactive practice tests, share those. I can share three codes um for everybody that's on this committee. Um and then at your leisure you can take a look at those questions so that you can understand for yourself
um how again how pedagogy or how classroom practice or how teaching practice is is brought about in this particular in these three exams. >> So I just have a quick question. >> Surely
>> um so the test is designed to have anybody teach that class. My my concern is safety along with agriculture and I'm assuming a librarian one as well. Um
I think the test is would probably be aligned with the standards. I don't think that's the question. I think the question is the safety piece of these three um courses. Um, I think being a
theater major and having a four-year degree in theater and fine arts, there's a lot that goes into that. And I would think that if you were going to give these tests as an option for all three of them, you would have some kind of endorsement attached to that because of
the safety piece. Nobody wants to be dinged on something terrible happening. So, um I just want to put that out there because I do think with these three, it's not like math. It's not like um um
L's. It's not like any of that stuff. You're talking about safety um procedures and precautions. So, I just want to put that out there because I do think that that is a big piece of this. And so, anyway, >> exactly, Megan. That that was from our
past discussions, that's where I was coming from as well. It's one thing to be able to well to use the example earlier of designing a set so that visually you get the interior of a castle or whatever, but building it so that you've got a wall that's 8 feet
tall and 12 feet long and it's not going to fall over on somebody. my area with is with lighting and so I've got lights hanging over students that are 10 20 feet up in the air and if one of those is not hung properly something can fall
and land on someone and I don't think you can give the skills required purely on a written test it needs to be hands-on execution do you know how to anchor this properly do you know how to clamp it properly build it so that it is
structurally sound etc. Those are my concerns. >> I had a question, Megan, and you are a theater teacher, so maybe you can answer this. in the schools school divisions that I've worked in and my daughter was
a theater student. Usually the principles of the schools where the the plays and the productions were going on had school facilities helping with the construction of the sets and running all of the lighting and everything. It
wasn't the drama teacher that was doing it. And when I look at the lure rags for theater arts, we do have some teachers who are the theater arts majors, education majors,
which is probably the pathway you took, but we do have many that do the add-on by coursework. And there's only through that pathway three credit hours required in technical theater. That's just one class
currently, which is the route through coursework. And I don't know that one three credit class is going to enable someone to really know how to build a set like Ron was describing. I certainly wouldn't
want someone running the lights in a production like that if they didn't have the technical skill. And I really thought most of the time facilities took over and did that part of a play um when
productions were going on in school auditoriums. Am I wrong thinking that >> it wasn't necessarily the teacher? But the principal over the principal is ultimately responsible for what's going on in in his or her building and they
would always have it and facilities and and those types of people taking care of of that piece of a production like that going on. >> Some of the schools are like that. A lot of the bigger counties are like that,
but some of the smaller counties, um, some of the teachers do a lot of it. There's like one other person that helps them. And so that that is a concern because you have two people and you don't have all cuz they might um wear
multiple hats. So you've got all these people trying to put on a production that might not necessarily be facility people and might not be, you know what I mean? it the the director and the teachers are heavily involved and it's
and just the safety piece is one part like performance is another like I just think that it's too handson but that's just that's just me I guess but it's it's a two it's too handson of a course to give it to anybody that's
how I feel but I could be wrong >> so Shelby I want to answer your question I also see that delegate Keys Camra has her hand up. Uh, so I will say from personal experience, the the drama teacher had to build the sets and I was the one helping them do that because I
was the licensed human. So there is a safety precaution and it's a lensure issue. We just don't have folks coming in doing that. And to Megan's point, some of our larger school divisions might have the capacity to do that. And I would even be kind of leaning in on
most of them probably are straying away from that because of the the liability issue. But if if you don't know how to do it, you don't do it because you could cause somebody to lose. And to to Ron's point, you don't want that being a junior high kid, sixth, seventh grade,
much less a graduating senior, 17, 18 years old, because well, I thought I could, but I wasn't trained and licensed to do such. Uh, Delegate Keys Gabri, >> thank you. I have uh two questions. Well, one question maybe a comment. The
first one was in the description um that was provided in the beginning, it listed persons who might be eligible for this as someone who had nearly completed um a theater curriculum. I'm not sure what
nearly means. So, I was wondering if I could get some clarification on that. Um that's my first question. Is he still here? >> Mr. Jackson, are you uh are you still here? >> Yeah, sorry. I didn't know if that was >> Mr. Jackson. Sorry, Dr. Jackson.
>> No, you're fine. I don't know if that was directed towards Mr. McKinley or myself. Um >> Oh, I think >> we're never going to answer the question. I Sorry. >> Yeah, I mean I I'll take a stab at it. I think from the presentation that was provided, they're saying nearly and I think Mr. McKinley alluded to this before um that in order to be able to
pass one of these assessments, it's likely I think I think there were those were the words off of the ETSs presentation, but that it's likely that they >> No, it said nearly. That's the reason I'm asking the question. >> Right. Was it in the presentation? >> It was in the presentation today. >> Okay. Okay.
>> Right. Right. Right. Um so in the ETSs presentation, it said nearly and and so I'm basing this off of the information that Mr. McKinley shared that in order to pass those that let's say that assessment in particular, you would have to have significant background knowledge
information and and as he noted, you would likely have had significant experience in that area in order to be able to pass such an assessment. Um, Mr. McKinley, is that am I am I >> I'm just um I'm trying to find where um it said
nearly pass. I'm just in in in my presentation I shared today >> um I didn't copy it. That's the word I read. That's the reason I'm using that word. >> Okay. Um
>> there was there were three or four things listed. Um well, I can go to my second question because it's connected to that. As someone who's been involved in oversight of an administration for a large school system, I do think we need
definitions for that because when it comes down to a situation where there has been a problem, those are the things that would be examined as to whether the system had done taken appropriate steps
to protect children in that in in that situation. Um, and so I have the similar concerns that everybody has, but that has been expressed thus far. Um, but that is my concern. If we don't know
what specifically that background is, those are the kind of the protections that are the things that we would look at. Um, but I'm also concerned about I think there was a comment about principles being involved um, providing
oversight. In my experience, those principles are relying upon the expertise of the people that they have hired. Um, so that raises another flag for me with respect to assuring folks that those who have the knowledge that
are necessary in that setting um that they are able to exercise that expertise in that particular setting. Um, what ends up happening in situations like this when something does go wrong
is, "Well, I thought they knew." And the other person says, "Well, I thought they knew and I thought you looked at it." And it really does put the school system in a bad position. So, I just wanted to make that comment. Thank you. >> I found the spot that I think that
you're referring to, um, Delegate Keys. Uh it's on the slide 14. Uh Mr. McKenley, it says a typical candidate uh nearly completed an undergraduate or graduate theater education degree. That
that's probably what you're referring to. And it was talking about theater. It was on the first slide after the theater title slide. >> Okay, >> that is correct. Thank you. >> So that I mean that's just in reference to a candidate that's in that's metriculating through a program. they
may have not actually graduated before they take the assessment. So, it just that's really just in reference to when the candidate is going to take the take a test. They may take it in order to student teach depending on the institution. They may take it during
their student teaching experience. They may take it after they graduate depending on whatever Virginia or the EP in Virginia's standards are around um completing an assessment. But that that's just in reference to the timing for a candidate and when they take the
exam. So nearly completed again just refers to the timing of when a candidate is going to complete a test. It might be in their last semester. It might be after they graduate. >> So I I guess I'm more confused now because I think the question I thought what we were talking about is people who
perhaps are teachers in other areas who now want to be certified in theater. Is that what we're talking about? >> That that is correct. But I'm just what all all I'm saying is that this test was developed for
candidates that are in a theater major or candidates that are in a agriculture major, candidates that are in a school librarian major. And I think part of the conversation today is can we use this assessment as an endorsement for other
teachers that may already be certified in another area so that they can add on a theater or add on whatever the assessment may be. But this test was designed for teacher candidates to help them um prove their proficiency, prove that
they have the knowledge and skills to be a teacher in this subject area. Brian, do you want to just give a a real quick explanation on why an assessment I mean how you can use these assessments like let's just say the math the
chemistry type situation because this does if this were to be approved and and go forward and the board approve it and all that it would allow this assessment to be used the same way we use other alternative assessments.
>> Sure. Sure. Exactly. So, um, even as, uh, Mr. McKinley alluded to before, some states, including Virginia, will adopt certain assessments to give a candidate, a teaching candidate or or a previously licensed teacher an opportunity to add endorsements to their license. Typically, you see that with secondary
endorsements. It can't be done with others that have specific content requirements. Um, you know, for example, like elementary education, they're going to be courses that you need to take, including an assessment. Um, but there are several secondary endorsements. um
you know for example biology, chemistry, earth and space science. So if I'm a chemistry teacher, I'm endorsing chemistry, but my school has a need for me to teach earth and space science. I can take that assessment if I have, you know, enough knowledge um if I'm prepared and I can take that and if I
pass it, I can apply to the my our office, Virginia Department of Education to add that endorsement to their license. So then they're able to teach other subject areas. Interestingly, and I think why there's so much rich discussion about these three endorsements is that the one of the initial reasons we brought this to the
table um last year and I believe they had even been considered at least in talk in years prior just hadn't made it all the way through the ABTEL process. So, we brought them back. Um and then there were some questions like I said in the um in the the breakout sessions after. That's why we're talking about it
again today that these assessments are a little bit different and there are genuinely a variety of different reasons why I think there was interest in at least reviewing these assessments for um for an option for somebody who um you know wants to teach in these areas. Schools one for these three are having a
hard time filling a lot of these positions. Um and so we you know I think even folks on the board um our office sometime get questions about hey is there possibility of having an assessment we have a candidate who has a you know a different degree let's say
you know in the agriculture field they I mean this is what we hear so I want to be very careful not to project licensers not projecting their own feelings or thoughts on this and and Brian's not projecting his own feelings or thoughts on this but we would get feedback for example saying they have a candidate they're perfect they have all this experience they have a degree in some
related agriculture field, but they don't have um but and and they've gone and and let's say they, you know, they've completed an endorsement and something else. So, they have their license, but um they're not able to go back and take all of this extra coursework to satisfy the very specific I'm just using agriculture as an
example, endorsement. Um and they would say, you know, is there an assessment that they can take because they know there are other assessments, as I just mentioned, that you can take in order to add an endorsement. And that's that's part of where some of this come from comes from. In other cases, it's somebody who's just interested in adding it. Um, and they were just, you know,
curious to see if there's an assessment to be able to add that endorsement. But again, I think in most cases, especially for these three, it's a need coming from a division. They're saying that they're saying that they have a candidate they'd like to consider, but there's too much coursework from the the coursework option, kind of alternate route option
to satisfy the endorsement requirements. Could there be a consideration for an assessment to satisfy the coursework? Um but obviously you know there are lots of concerns specifically for these three and I think two of them really in particular where there's uh enhanced
kind of safety risk and I think that's what leads to this rich discussion but Rob that's essentially where all this come comes from just an op whether we have school divisions that have candidates that they think are eligible but there's too much coursework for them to complete and they're saying hey could we consider an assessment or already
established educators saying hey I'd really like to add this assessment but I don't want to go back and take all this coursework Um, but that's those are just reasons why this would have come to the board. Um, but certainly not an argument for or against whether or not these very
specific subject areas or endorsements should have the assessment as an option. >> Thank you, Brian. >> Thanks, >> Rob. If I may follow up, please. >> Yes. Um I I guess what I have a concern from hearing this discussion and as well
as my background is that there doesn't appear to be a distinction between someone having the skills to do all the things that have been mentioned here by Dr. Jones and others that raise safety concerns or particular things where
expertise is required to make sure that people are safe in that environment. there there doesn't appear to be a distinction based on this test that we're talking about say with respect to agriculture and theater uh particularly
so that when the public examines what we did they know that those considerations were taken into account I understand the concern about teacher shortages it's a nationwide problem but I also understand
that public education is under a great deal of scrutiny or can be particularly when something goes wrong or a child gets hurt. So I I think that's in a nutshell what my concern is and I I
present that for consideration. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Mr. McKinley, you want to finish off your presentation? Rob, >> Dr. Cox has his hand up. Oh, >> I'm sorry. I did not see Dr. Cox's hand.
Um, and this could be Rob or or Brian, either one, but are these the only three endorsements that don't have any kind of assessment that goes along with them? >> No, there are several others um there
quite a few actually that just haven't ever come up before. So these were three that even when I came in to the agency were brought to me as um assessments that I think were in discussion and I think during maybe an extensive amount of transition they just never came to
the ABTEL board and so that's why we brought them the first time. Um and I think at that time those discussions were around teacher shortages and divisions expressing you know a desire is this a possibility. Um so yeah but
Andy um or Dr. Cox. Yes, of course. There are several other endorsements that don't have uh an assessment approved. >> Okay. Well, and that's something too that I think has been mentioned and I just wanted to double check is because certainly 90% of the endorsements um
that we have. There is some kind of a measure of content pedigogy that goes along with it. I think, you know, what what I worry about is that, you know, when we add a test like this, you know, we're hoping that the training that
somebody received in another endorsement will carry over to help them with this new endorsement and that may be putting a whole lot of pressure on a test. I guess my mind too goes to that, you
know, whenever I go to my my doctor or let's say it's an oncologist who's board certified in that, I don't know that if they were to sit down and take a test in surgery that just because they passed the test
in surgery that I want them operating on me because there's a certain amount of practice and experience erience and mentorship that goes along with that residency or whatever it is. I know
that's not a good example, but that's kind of something that goes into my head that we're relying on the initial um practicum or student teaching or whatever it is to carry over to endorsements that may or may not match.
I think I I don't I've never had a problem if somebody has a prek through six endorsement and they want to take the middle school math tests and they pass it. Well, then yeah, they're fine to add that endorsement because they are very very similar and the these seem to
be very very different than than what that initial training would be. But um then again, I was thinking too, and this is why I asked the question, um if these were the only endorsements that didn't have any kind of assessment to go along
with it, then that that kind of would make a bit more sense. But but anyhow, um all right, Malik, I'm turn it back over to you. >> Thank you. No, just a a last note here. Um, again, I I'll make the offer that if
there are if there's a subset of this committee that wants to specifically look at questions because it sounds like this is going this is going to continue to point back to what is the actual content on the
test that speaks to those concerns or those challenges that an agricultural teacher or a school librarian or a theater teacher will will face. I can again provide an interactive practice test to give you examples of those
questions or if you would like to actually see each live exam that's out in the marketplace right now, we can also provide that for you as well so that you can actually see questions because I I think until you actually
know exactly what's on the test, there probably probably will continue to be questions about the about the specific content. So, just making that as an offer. Um, if there are folks on the
committee that would like to see actual test questions from this cate um from each one of these exams, we could certainly provide that for you. >> But, Mr. McKinley, I I want to make sure I'm clear about saying it's performance
based. So the the reiteration of I can sit down and I can take a multiple choice true false fill in the blank is one thing but I need to be able to perform the task and meet the minimum proficiencies and standards. I think
that's the greater component that everyone was looking for and I know that I'd heard earlier where you know some folks would get that coursework and I also heard later on that some people just want the test to avoid the coursework. That's why think there's the I can speak for the committee by the
shakes of the heads. That's the issue. We cannot substitute testing for performance-based behavior because that performancebased says I not only know it but I can demonstrate it. And if I can't demonstrate it as the instructor, how can I perform that task for the student
to get them to do so satisfactorily as well? So if if there's a performance component, I think that would resolve what keeps coming back here. But we can't say that we use it as a substitute because we're trying to avoid the coursework that's actually going to teach us how to do the the steel or the
task. Is is that what I am understanding I am hearing from the shaking of the heads? Yes. Thank you. >> Dr. Jones, are are are you ready to move on to the next uh presentation?
Uh yes sir. However, we have we have been sitting for quite a while and I know that I've seen some folks with a a cup or two of of their preferred beverage. So could we maybe take a a a 10minute uh resolve yourself
and come back maybe at a quarter after fresh and and ready to proceed if that is if that is okay. >> That'd be fine. >> Okay. So, ladies and gentlemen, we'll go ahead and um reconvene at 10:15. We're
currently on break.