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Welcome to the Valuchia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in 10 minutes.
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Okay, if everybody wants to find their seat, we'll get started in in one minute. Okay, welcome to the October 21st, 2025 Valuchia County Council meeting. Uh we will call the meeting to order at 4:04.
council uh was a little behind for the opening today of the supervisor of elections uh office which is will benefit everybody that votes in Valuchia County. Hopefully all
of you. We do not have a a volunteer for the invocation today. So we're going to start in just a minute. I'll have everybody stand and we'll just have a moment of silence and then we'll go to the pledge of allegiance. You
would like to remain standing for that. So stand up. Professor, would you call the role, please? >> Mr. Dempsey >> here. >> Mr. Johansson >> here. >> Mr. Kent
>> here. >> Mr. Reinhardt >> here. >> Mr. Robins >> here. >> Mr. Santiago here. >> Mr. Brower >> here. Do you have a full quum? Do we have any publication? >> Okay, I will call your name. Um, when I
do, please come to the podium. You will have three minutes to uh talk about anything of concern to Valuchia County, something that we can perhaps deal with at a future meeting. Um, you don't have to give your full
address for safety reasons, but please tell us what part of the county you're from so that your representative up here knows knows who you are and and where you are. There will be a clock I think above my head on the screen in front of you so to
time the three minutes because we do have a lot of people that want to speak. So, I would just ask that you be respectful of of those that also uh want to address their local government and to also be respectful of of the people in the room, the people that are listening,
um, young people, um, people of of various backgrounds. All right. First up this morning, we have Keith Chester. >> Mr. Chairman, before we start, if I may,
a moment of personal privilege. I wanted to recognize a former county council member was here. If you want, I'll just yield to you, Mr. Chair, if you want to recognize the member. >> That's uh fine. I was actually going to recognize her. She is going to speak awesome on the consent. >> Okay, perfect. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
>> Before we vote on the consent agenda, I'll have you come up. >> Thank you, sir. But we we do have to complete what he said. We have uh former county council member Deb Denny's here >> and you have current citizen Keith
Chester from Dand. >> When writing about the cultural funding, some on social media referred to some of you as Nazis and bigots. And the former Dand Museum executive director Patty Partardee referred to me as a little troll. I will wear that title as a badge of
honor because I hold no shame in fighting for the unfair taxation of those coming behind us and how it is directly affecting young hardworking people's ability to provide shelter for themselves and their families. And I find it odd that some would refer to some on this governing body as Nazis for
their refusal to have the government forcibly take money some hardworking people earned in order to give it away to so-called nonprofits of the council's choosing, thus infringing on personal freedoms of those who earned the money. as Nazis truly did. And I certainly do
not believe any of you are bigots. While watching the no king's protest on the news, some were saying that we as Americans broke free from a monarchy in 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was signed. So following along with that point, I would like to
remind everyone that the fight for our country's independence started over what was felt to be the unfair taxation of the people by a monarchy. So I ask, is taxing Valuchia Countyy's citizens in an unfair and unbalanced way while using the threat of taking one's home and
property if they don't pay and giving away what is taken to so-called nonprofits much different than what started the Revolutionary War and taxes here are not being collected fairly and equally for the same basic essential services and that too is wrong. However, that process becomes worse when what is
being taken in an unfair way is in turn given away. It is not the government's role to make our charitable giving decisions for us. Here in Valuchia County, we have inadequate and deteriorating roads, sidewalks, and infrastructure.
We have flooding, littered waterways, and right ofways, and so much more that needs funding that falls within the realm of the county government's core governmental responsibilities. Every dime that is taken by force from Valuchia County citizens needs to be earmarked to those core governmental
responsibilities. And one should note the idea that we as taxpayers don't already heavily fund the arts here is absurd. Millions have been spent through the echo program. Millions have been spent through schools. In fact, there is a taxpayer funded charter
school that is dedicated to the arts. And millions have been given to colleges and universities. Please end the funding for the cultural programs and move $611,000 to the underfunded sidewalk fund. Increase the ROI by doing your core
responsibilities well and by ending the handouts. And let us not forget, in most cases, nonprofits already benefit from not being required to pay taxes. Thus, they don't help fund the roads and other infrastructure they too need to thrive.
>> Thank you, >> Greg. Wait. Good afternoon, commissioners. I'm here to talk about something deeply meaningful. The way we as a community choose to remember those who have shaped our lives and our history. Honoring someone is not only about placing a name
on a plaque, raising a statue, or renaming a stretch of highway. It is about ensuring that their story, their service, and their spirit continue to live in the heart of our community. When we decide to honor a public figure or a
leader who made a lasting difference, we take several important steps. Each one ensures that our remembrance is not just emotional, but enduring and thoughtful. A memorial is not just a personal tribute. It is a public one. Neighbors,
civic groups, schools, or veterans organizations often join together to endorse the idea. Petitionians may circulate letters written and meetings held. This step ensures that the
memorial represents shared values, not just individual wishes. Once support is gathered, the idea moves before local authorities or councils, historical boards or other groups. They review the proposal uh carefully considering
questions such as does this person's legacy represent the best of who we are? Will this memorial bring our community together or separate us? Is the location appropriate? A memorial must be
preserved and shared. It's because a teaching tool for becomes a teaching tool for younger generations. a sight of remembrance for those who follow and a reminder of the values that unite us. Courage, service, compassion, and
vision. So when we talk about honoring someone, we're talking about building bridges between past and present, between memory and meaning. Each step from proposal to dedication reflects our
collective gratitude and our shared humanity. Because in the end, a memorial is not just made of stone, metal, or a stretch of highway. It is made of love, respect, and remembrance of a community that refuses to forget. Thank you.
>> Thank you. And when you come up, please remember to tell us what part of the county you're from. Next is John Nicholson. >> I'm from >> Deltona. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. John Nixon, Daytona Beachside. Welcome back, David. You missed all the fun last
meeting. Uh, again, with regard to the $600,000 cultural arts, um, quite frankly, it's the easiest terminology I can think of. You guys stepped in it. All right. Everything I've read in all of the articles condemned
the vote. All right. Three of you said, "I don't want to pull the rug out from under cultural arts at this time." Yet, three of you voted exactly to do that. All right. I don't think it's appropriate if
you uh fund these organizations, they go through all the hoops and at the last minute you yank it. All right? Because they do their budgets. All right? Two years ago, you let them know that you're going to be cancelling this and they had meetings and they were working their way
down and then it was abruptly stopped after a year. So, did you keep your word? You told them if you did this we will do this and then you didn't. All right. You'll hear all this stuff from behind me. I don't know the numbers but they
they produce a great deal of money for my city and others. All right. Cultural arts is a money maker. It employs a lot of people. There's a lot that they buy from our community, but there's a lot that they find. They're not just takers. They're givers.
And they give to our community. I had years to convince my city that free is a good price. And we had Boys and Girls Clubs, we had the YMCA, we had PAL who ran our centers and cost us nothing and
saved us over a million and a half in in uh salaries and they didn't see it that way. So, they kicked them all out and the services to our kids dropped drastically. They offer a lot to people who can't
afford it. They offer a lot to our children. All right. I'm old enough to have been there, done that. The kids don't have that opportunity. This is a small amount of money. You could have waited another year and given it to Echo. You've given money, I don't
know how many millions of dollars to these organizations over the year for brick and mortar. All right. Remember what we did with Valuchia Forever? We said, "We bought this property, but we can't just leave it there. We've got to manage it." So you put in a system of
taking some of the money to manage echo. Logical. The same thing is here. You've built these buildings. You've created these and help these creations to grow. You can't just drop them. It's a waste of money. You've put this money into the
Athens Theater, Peabody, you name it. So, it's only logical that your next step should have been to go to the echo and do the same thing that you did with Valuchia forever. Have it fund our cultural arts. Thank you. >> Thank you for your comments. Patty
Party. Patty Cardi D district 1 that you um I'm retired with no affiliation with any arts organization but experience with many. In my recent retirement, I've gained something invaluable, time and
voice. I intend to use both in service to what matters deeply to me, the continued public funding of cultural organizations in our county and the elections. For more than 30 years, I've stood before this body. Sometimes to thank it, sometimes to challenge it, but
always armed with facts, hard data. Evidence of the value of arts and culture bring to our residents, our economy, and our identity. But in the past two years, those facts have been ignored. So now I ask you, what's really driving your decisions? Let's start with
the changes you requested. You asked for a revised grant application that made space for smaller organizations. That was done. You asked for a shift from general support to programbased funding. That was done. You repeatedly
raised concerns about taxes. So, let's talk about that. This entire allocation is just over a dollar per capita, less than 0.05% of the county budget. Meanwhile, cultural audiences generate $1 million
annually in local taxes through dining, shopping, and tourism. The return on the investment is undeniable. So, if it's not about the money, is it about morality? This is where my social media comment comes in. Two years ago, Florida's governor cut all cultural
funding because of one theater festival. The backlash was so intense that the funding was reinstated. Voters across the state and right here have shown their support. The echo referendum passed twice in Valuchia County with cultural facilities as a key component.
That program requires ongoing proof of public use, rentals, and economic impact. This year, your appointed cultural council, which each of you handpicked dedicated hours to reading and scoring grant applications. You dismissed their works without reading
your the grants yourselves. One of you decided to play morality cop, censoring programs that were not even funded by this grant. Others sat quietly, offering weak objections that were never going to change the outcome. Let's be clear, this didn't start with the drag show, and
it's certainly not about $1 per person. So, I ask you, what is this really about? You talk about the arts going to the local symphony, museums, and theater productions, but have any of you visited the 32 Head Start classrooms the Museum of Art Dand serves across the county?
Have you seen the afterchool program at the Chisum Center? They are free to the children who need them most. But by all means, continue pushing for county funds for motocross track. Shame on those of you who defunded the arts, and shame on those who knew better and said nothing.
If facts don't matter and results don't matter then what does feel free to contact personally we'll talk about my comments you are at >> Thank you for your comments Cameron >> Cameron Vincent. >> Good afternoon council and chair. My
name is Cameron Vincent, South Daytona, Florida. Um, I am the executive director of Art House Foundation. I am the vice president of the VCCA and I sit on the Valuja County Echo Gallery Advisory Committee. We come together to work with council and ask they reinstate the
cultural grant. Over 2,300 residents have signed the petition to reinstate this funding in just the past 13 days. And that's just on social media. When county council first began talks with cultural council about the possible cancellation of this grant, our organizations came together immediately to find a solution. one that would not
strip free and reduced co cost cultural programming from our Valia residents. Chair Brower, I understand your concern with the roads and the sidewalks. I get it. This funding that that we receive, it's a dollar per person per year and it
generates $1.99 in tax revenue per year. That is the definition of doubling your money. It is an investment that pays. It's a 100% return on investment. It makes you money. It pays for itself. As for reallocating cultural funding to
roads and sidewalks, a published 2022 city of Port Orange via third-party study found that it costs about $572,000 to improve just one mile of road and 5 million to build one mile of new road. 5
to $25 per square foot to repair or replace sidewalks. So I asked, are we truly considering cutting longstanding revenue generating cultural investment to cover the cost of repairing just one mile of road? Because that same $611,000 investment in
cultural grant not only returns over $1.3 million in local tax revenue, but also provides estimated $1.1 million in free and reduced programming and services for Valujia County residents for the people who voted for you. You asked that the grant process be changed. Cultural Council changed it.
Organizations across the county worked tirelessly to meet the shortened deadline. You approved the budget for this grant. We took you at your word. We took you at your word. We listened to your concerns and we began the process of getting the grant on the ballot so that we pull it away from the general fund. We heard you. We're trying to work
with you. It needs time. We want to do it like the echo program did. We're trying to listen to you, but the process takes time. While that work continues, we implore you to work with us now and reate reinstate critical funding. This grant represents
so much more than money. It's a small investment with monumental return. We're not asking you for more, only what you've already approved. Though we double your investment, the true return is measured in education, creativity, community pride, and opportunities for thousands of residents, children's, families,
veterans, and seniors, your constituents. Please, we ask you to put the grant back on the agenda. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Edward Tobin, >> Mr. Chairman, >> is it Tobin or Tobayian?
>> Tobin. >> Tobin. Okay. >> Mr. Chairman, I just want to bring up um um if we want to how we want to redirect the rest of the public comment section of it because our our rules call for one hour of public comments. And I think you have 40 documents there. >> Yes.
>> Would it be in order to make it into that one hour? I don't know how maybe we could reduce to one one and a half minutes of comments and get through them that way everybody could hear or do we want the full three minutes and just let it run as long as it can.
>> Okay. U Councilman Kent. >> Thank you, Chairman. Um I I agree with the audience. They want three minutes. They should get three minutes, but we're going to follow our rules. Hopefully, at the end of the hour, we're going to uh start the rest of the business and then these comments will come at the end of the meeting.
>> I'm okay with that, but I just we needed to address it because we're certainly not going to make it in the window. >> Okay, go. >> Uh good afternoon, council and chair. Uh my name is Ed Tobin. I live in South
Daytona and I came uh to support the uh the cultural grants that I understand have been uh deleted from your budget. Uh I came to give a shout out to the hub in New Smyrna Beach. They host Guitars
for Vets, which is a program to teach veterans suffering from PTSD how to play guitar and use music as a therapy. But my real reason for being here is that I recently joined the board out at the Barberville Pioneer
Settlement and I've just had to work with our accountant to revise our budget that we thought we had passed and now we have to revise it again. Uh and I'm hoping that we have to do it again uh with a reinstatement of uh some
funding for the grants that we had requested. So, I'd like to just remind uh the council that the Barberville Pioneer Settlement is not just a bunch of old buildings. We host about 20,000 visitors per year. 10,000 of those
visitors are school children. And those school children come on field trips all throughout the year. and they learn about the past, about things that their pioneer parents or or the pioneers that
that settled Florida had to go through 100 and 150 years ago. So, while the while the grant may or may not directly impact us, you know, at a at the very bottom line, uh I would ask you to
consider the uh uh reinstating it. I would also like to invite everybody hearing this to come out to our fall harvest festival on November 1st and 2nd. If we get additional
admissions uh through the gate, that'll help offset some of the uh funding that we may have lost. Anyway, so thank you very much for your time. >> Thank you for your comments, Anthony Earl. And I'll just u I'm going to the next person will be Ann Marie willer if
you want to come up and get ready. We've got a little more than a half hour which means about 11 people. So if you can say what you want to say in less than three it'll give somebody some other people a turn to talk. Go ahead Anthony. >> My name is Anthony Erlic. I live in
Barbaraville. I am the president of the creative happiness institute and all volunteer 501c3 um organization which promotes poetry and the arts and is based on the philosophy that the arts inform us,
elevate us, contribute to our health and well-being. Our motto is be creative, be well. We are one of the organizations that applied for a grant from the county with the guidance of the Valuchia County
Cultural Council. And I as I'm going to read two short excerpts from an opinion piece by the Orlando Sentinel editorial board published on October 19th. And I ask that the entire editorial be included in the minutes of today's meeting.
And lest any of you councilmen want to discount the thoughts uh that expressed therein as coming from outside Valuchia County. I'll tell you that the editorial board writer is a woman named Chris
Fluker. Before she moved to the Sentinel, Miss Fluker was for many years the editor of the letters to the editor page of the Daytona Beach Journal and of the editorial page of that newspaper. She has a deep lived knowledge of
Valuchia County. I'll here's excerpt one. Um at issue, this is from the editorial. At issue, a 611 pool of grant funding that the council established decades ago back when county leaders
understood the economic and community building benefits of arts and cultural programs. Every year a volunteer committee reviews and ranks applications from area museums, theaters, historical societies, and other community
organizations. This year, the committee recommended funding 33 requests, including art camps, history walks, art festivals, and other activities. Specific requests included the Dand Naval Air Station Museum's Memorial Day
event, a performance of Handles Messiah by the Daytona Beach Coral Society, an exhibition, an exhibit at the Mary S. Harold Black Heritage Museum in New Smyrna Beach,
etc. And I'll go on to uh excerpt two which comes from the last paragraphs of the editorial. Valuchia County should not abandon its decadesl long commitment to arts and cultural program programs. The council meets again Tuesday and has a chance to
reverse course which should be made easier by the fact that both the Athens and Shoring theaters have withdrawn their applications for county operating funding. This should be an easy >> Thank you. Thank you very much for your
comments. Ann Marie will you'll be followed by Heather McClean. And Heather, you'll be followed by Mayor Karen Shaz. >> Thank you, Carissa. >> Good evening. My name is Anmarie Wilker. I live here in Dand and I'm the president of Vuchia Pride. Two weeks
ago, I watched as you weaponized our organization against the entire Valuchia arts community. You pandered to us when you wanted our votes and then you turned around and used us as pawns in your manufactured culture war. Arts funding is not about giving public
money to private business. Arts funding is about upholding freedom of expression, fostering creativity in our youth, and investing in the economic vitality of our county through tourism,
cultural growth, and community identity. Our arts organizations bring people here. They create jobs. They shape belonging. And they help our young people imagine a future for themselves.
And now, after using Valuchia Pride as a convenient scapegoat for your funding cuts, some council members propose naming a street after a man who has never contributed to Valuchia County, has no relationship to our community, and is publicly known for promoting
division and discrimination. You're proposing to honor a man who has publicly demeaned queer people, questioned the humanity of those who transition, and suggested that black professionals are inherently less qualified. He advocated for the subservience of women, denied the
principle of separation of church and state, and used his platform to foster hate and resentment instead of unity and dialogue. This is the message of the man that you propose to honor on public signage in our county.
This does not reflect who we are, nor the values of the people who call Valuchia home. I am a proud Valuchia County resident, a nonprofit leader, an internationally recognized athlete, and someone working every day to build belonging. And for all of us who live,
work, create, play, and dream in Valuchia County, I'm asking you to do better. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Heather McClean, followed by Mayor Karen Shaz, followed by Grace
Boon. [Music] All right. Um, good afternoon, uh, Chairman Brower, council members. My name is Heather Mlan. I live in Dand, Valuchia County. Um, I'm the vice president of Valuchia Pride, an organization that has provided support, advocacy, visibility, and above all,
hope for LGBTQ plus community and our allies here in Valuchia County. At the October October 7th meeting of this council, you chose to withhold $611,000 in funding from being awarded to 33 cultural organizations in Valuchia County. By the time the meeting was over and in the last two weeks since that
meeting, the general public has gotten the impression that this council never intended to award those funds this year and that you'd rather allocate them to other parts of the budget. While I may or and many others behind me today and two weeks ago in this chamber um probably don't agree with that decision, I'm not here to talk about that today.
I'm here to talk about the fact that we witnessed our elected officials bully two of those arts organizations for doing business with our nonprofit organization. You told them that even though you continue to push for them to fund themselves rather than relying on tax dollar funding, they should only do business with organizations that fit the
council's definition of art. You use your position to create a chilling effect that has made other businesses and organizations given the opportunity to think twice about doing business with us and our organization. You grilled representatives from the Athens and Sho String Theater about their work with Lucia Pride as if it were a crime rather
than a business transaction or a community event. and you even insinuated that they should think about refusing to work with us, uh, which would be a violation of current anti-discrimination law. Our work at Valuchia Pride is not funded by government handouts or tax, um, taxpayer dollars. We are a nonprofit
organization who rents spaces and presents entertainment that is fully compliant with all local, state, and federal law. Our business partners are valued members of this community and should not be penalized for supporting us. With great power comes great responsibility. You represent all the
constituents of Valuchia County and whether you're aware of it or not about 10% of them are LGBTQ and that number keeps growing. 25% of Gen Z now identify as LG LGBTQ plus. So when I know you pride yourself on being pro business,
perhaps it's not great advice to suggest not doing business with LGBTQ support organizations. My advice to you is to educate yourself, open your eyes, open your hearts, and realize the responsibility you have as elected officials on this council. Thank you for your time.
>> Thank you. Uh, Deerry Mayor Karen Shaz, followed by Grace Boon, followed by Caitlyn Swan. >> Karen Shaz Deberry. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I am concerned with the withdrawal of council funding for the arts. I would like to cite the
comprehensive plan, your comprehensive plan in the funding portion of the cultural element. The county shall maintain the viability of cultural facilities and opportunities by assisting the relevant sponsoring cultural organizations through an annual
county budget appropriation dispersed as competitive grants to local cultural organizations to be used for operating costs and limited capital expenditures. The county shall help support cultural organizations that
demonstrate artistic merit and a history of public support through the percent or number of the public served, amount of public private f funding, professional management capacity, number of volunteer hours, amount of inind contributed
services, and demonstrating a substantial positive economic impact to the county. The county through the cultural arts grant requirements shall set a ceiling for allocations to a cultural organization for operating
grants. Please note the budget appropriations are for operating costs and limited capital expenditures. The appropriations are determined by the factors outlined in the comp plan. In contrast, echo grants are specifically quote used solely to finance
acquisition, restoration, construction, and improvement of recreation, historic, and cultural facilities for public use. And the process for screening those cultural grants for facilities is not identical to the one in the comp plan. Echo grants clearly do not cover the
county's obligations shall multiple times in the comp plan for maintaining the viability of cultural facilities and opportunities or assisting them through an annual quote county budget appropriation for operating costs and
limited capital expenditures. End quote. The amount going into Echko each year is determined by a separate millage amount chosen within the constraints of the authorizing ordinance, not a county budget appropriation. I believe the council could reverse its
decision to breach the comp plan through subsequent action at this meeting. And I thank you for your time. >> Thank you for your comments, Grace Buon, Caitlyn Swan, followed by Karina Martinez. Okay, Katherine Pante is switching with
Grace Boon. >> Thank you. >> Katherine Pante, address protected. >> Councilman Robbins. At the last meeting, you removed item H from the consent agenda, an item already approved by the county budget allocating $611,000 to
support public arts programs throughout Valuchia County. Rather than discussing the arts proven cultural and economic value, you presented a false narrative, claiming tax dollars were being used to fund drag shows and LGBTQ events. That statement was untrue. Tax dollars have
never been used to fund those events, and you are well aware of that fact. Your comments were not only misleading, they were designed to create fear and division in this community. Chairman Brower, I have long respected you as an advocate for the residents of Valuchia County. However, some of your recent
decisions have been concerning. While you emphasize fiscal responsibility, you supported spending over 10 million on a proposed motocross facility built on land purchased under the guise of conservation and an additional 1 million to subsidize a for-profit airline. This was the epitome of corporate welfare on
the back of taxpayers. Respectfully, that does not align with the principles of responsible governance. Councilman Robbins, I believe the public deserves transparency. While you sit on the dis while you sit on the dis positioning yourself as the arbiter of morality,
your own record raises serious questions. As a Daytona Beach police officer, you are reprimanded for spending time inside Lollipop's strip club while on duty. Your supervisor's written reprimand stated you did not log out at that location and you did not
indicate you were out of your car. Your CAD report was misleading and would have created an officer safety issue. If we are to discuss morality and integrity, it's fair to ask, why were you inside a strip club on duty on a taxpayers's time
and dime? You were not dispatched there, nor were you flagged down. And if you were misleading on CAD, how are voters expected to trust you? Now, this is not leadership. It's hypocrisy, performance politics, and it detracts from the real challenges facing Valuchia County. Flooding, soaring insurance rates,
unmanaged growth, and deteriorating infrastructure. Instead of addressing those issues, you chose to demonize people and use morality as a political tool. A copy of your reprimand will be entered into the public record. And come election day, voters will decide whether
they want leadership grounded in honesty and accountability or more of the same political theater. In closing, I want to remind all of you these art programs provide many free services to our community. The Museum of Arts and Science is free for all Valuchia County residents for the first Tuesday of each
month. Art House provides art therapy to autistic children and pay school for girls. There are free programs for veterans as well. What is not okay is to cleverly disguise personal bias from the dis behind the cloak of core government responsibilities. I hope all of you reconsider reallocating this $611,000
back to the arts where it belongs. Thank you. >> Caitlyn Swan, followed by Karina Martinez, followed by Craig Upper. >> Good afternoon, council members. My name is Reverend Caitlyn Swan. I live at 435
East Rich Avenue in Dand. I am a United Methodist minister, an educator, and a small business owner. I'm here because this council's decision not to award funding to 32 arts and culture organizations is more than disappointing. It's short-sighted and
unjust. I understand one reason cited uh for this was that two theaters, the Athens and the Shoestring, rented their spaces to Valuchia Pride for drag events to raise funds for their programs. Let's talk about that first. Are we really
withholding funding from every arts organization in the county because two of them did business with the queer community? That's not fiscal responsibility. That's discrimination. If organizations that receive county funding are now expected to pick and choose who they're allowed to serve,
then this county owes the public some clarity. Who exactly are you expecting them to discriminate against next? LGBTQ groups now, but sure, where does that end? Is it political groups next? What about religious groups? Should a
theater refuse a fundraiser for a Democratic candidate? What about a conservative speaker? And when the lawsuits start flying, as they inevitably will, will the county be stepping in to support them and defend them? Well, the truth is that this argument
about drag shows is a smoke screen anyway. The real issue is that this council is looking for an excuse to end all funding for the arts, calling it charity, as if supporting culture, creativity, and education were an act of pity rather than an act of progress. I'm
a clergy person and I know cl uh charity when I see it. This isn't charity. This is smart economic investment. These organizations employ local artists attract out of town visitors. Many of them my friends coming in from out of
county to spend their money here and to keep our downtowns alive. People travel from other cities, other counties to see a show at the Athens or the shoestring. They eat in our restaurants. They shop in our stores. They stay at our hotels. Every ticket sold is an investment in
the small businesses around it. Somehow, this council understands economic investment when it aligns with their personal projects and hobbies. I expect you'll be hearing a lot about motocross for quite some time. And here's the thing. I'm not here to oppose the motocross project. I don't personally
ride motocross, but I think it's cool to bring things to our county that people want to do and people want to see and be a part of. And that's what the arts do, too. What I'm asking is simple. Apply the same standard across the board. If you believe in economic development, then believe in all of it. You don't
have to like every play, every event, or every song. But you do have to govern for the good of everyone. Don't let personal taste dictate public investment. Invest in community, creativity, and vibrancy. Thank you. Thank you.
Karina Martinez, followed by Craig Upper, followed by Jason Parody. Good. >> Hello, my name is Karina Martinez and I'm a music major living at Sty University. When I first heard about the 32 cultural arts organizations losing
their grant money, I was honestly disappointed. But then I realized maybe not everyone understands the importance of arts. So I'm here to talk about it. Because I'm an orchestral music major, I'm going to specifically be talking about community orchestras like Valuchia
Community Arts. There's an article published in the National Library of Medicine that says that students who grew up learning an instrument on average do better in reading, spelling, and non-verbal intelligence compared to students that didn't. In
addition to cognitive benefits, learning an instrument gives you an opportunity to be in a music ensemble like a community orchestra. This is important because participating in ensembles helps with emotional regulation, sense of belonging, confidence, and creative thinking. It also creates community,
which is important in a time where so many young people are reporting feeling lonely. I'm not sure about the others in this room, but I want the youth of Valuchia County to thrive in life academically, emotionally, and socially. Unfortunately, with the loss of grant
money to community orchestras, less students will have access to the benefits music has to offer and the arts in general. Although they can get involved in school, that doesn't work for every student. The more access they have to it, the better. I community
investment in the arts is one of the reasons I'm a musician today and I've seen firsthand how it has improved my life and the life of my peers. I chose to go to Stson and join this community not just because they have a good music program but because I wanted to be part of a community with a vibrant arts and
I'd hate to see that community fade away due to finances. The youth are the future. So, I'm asking you to please reconsider your decision to take these grants so that more young students can thrive in Valuchia County. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you for your comments. Uh Craig
Upper followed by Jason Parody followed by Toana Downing. >> Good afternoon, gentlemen. Uh Craig Upper here again. Good to see all of you and um live here in Dan Dun's uh
district. So, I'm here speaking as the president of the Valuchia County Cultural Alliance and speaking on behalf of the hundreds of artists, educators, and organizations who help Valuchia County to be a place where people want
to live and work and and also visit. And as you know, for the past 36 years, the county council has recognized that funding for arts and culture is not just a luxury, it's an investment. until the majority of this council.
So, I'm a data-driven decision maker and I do that in my everyday work uh and also in my personal life. And so, I know I previously shared with you that the AE American for the Arts 6 study uh showed
that every dollar invested returns over $1.99 in local economic activity. And the arts and culture has helped to generate more than millions of dollars annually spent at restaurants, hotels, and other small
businesses. And the funding has helped to support jobs, attract tourists, and strengthen our schools, both public and private and charter. But when those funds disappear, the loss
is not abstract. It will be visible. Not if, but when. It will be visible. and cancelled programs, darkened stages, and children, perhaps the thing I'm most passionate for, children without access to creative
learning opportunities that continue to build confidence and innovation. The nonprofit arts and culture organizations took seriously your direction to become more self-sustaining. Many open their doors to outside groups and touring
productions to help offset costs and keep our families vibrant and active. It is therefore deeply concerning that hosting certain community groups was used as a justification to withhold this year's already allocated funds. Perhaps
the number one principle of public service, as you probably know already, is that you serve through a lens of public service and preference for all people, not just some people. And the arts reflect a full wide variety of our
residents, every background, every belief, every orientation. And that inclusivity, my friends, is what makes communities thrive. In closing, I think that this moment and today calls for leadership rooted in fairness and
consistency and vision. The arts are not partisan. They're the soul of a very healthy democracy, one that celebrates creativity and fosters empathy and welcomes every citizen to the table. Thank you.
>> Thank you for your comments, Jason Parody, Toana Downing, and you will be followed by Adam Maker. It's a parody. But yeah, everybody gets it wrong. >> Jason Parero. >> So, council members, I'm Jason Parero from Dand. I'm one of the owners of
artworks Dand. I'm here to talk about your decision to eliminate the $611,000 in arts funding, a decision that is economically irrational, procedurally unjust, and morally bankrupt. Let's talk numbers. The arts sector contributes 1.2 2 trillion annually to the United States
economy. Florida's arts industry alone generates $5.8 billion in economic activity. Every art attendee spends an additional $31 beyond admission, $47 if they're from out of town. As a business owner, that spending keeps our doors
open. On top of this, neighborhoods with robust art programs have half the school truency and delinquency of those without. The arts aren't a luxury. They're economic and social infrastructure. Now, let's talk about your budget. You approved $1.39 billion
in spending. The arts grant you cut, that's 0044%. Literally a rounding error. You found $30 million for the new sheriff's complex, $24 million for a new mosquito control facility, $17 million for jail surveillance cameras, $15.7
million for cosmetic upgrades to the ocean center. Let me be crystal clear about what you defunded. The Athens Theater requested money for Legally Blonde. Steel Magnolia, Sound of Music, Family Productions. The objectionable objectionable events you cited, Rocky
Horror, Pride events, those were third party rentals. Valuchia Pride never applied for or received a single grant dollar. You punished museums, symphonies, historical societies, and youth programs. This is like shutting down the public library system because someone checked
out a book you don't like. The Cultural Council vetted every application. Every dollar was accounted for. Organizations provided detailed plans. You you just reformed the grant process to fund specific programs rather than operations, then cut everything. Anyway, proving reform was just a
pretext for censorship. Your budget shows you have emergency reserves above the required 5% minimum. You're spending $300,000 to upgrade the county council chambers AV equipment that already works. Tourist depart development tax funds could be legally designated to
promote cultural attractions instead of the general fund. You could cover this entirely. The money exists. You just chose not to find it. Okay, here's here's what really this really is. It's ideological censorship disguised as fiscal responsibility. You're spending
$8 million in additional jail camera funding beyond the $9 million previously budgeted. I'd love to know why that line item was increased by 88% and who was awarded that contract. The arts attracts tourists, supports businesses. We've heard it all o over and over again.
Every econ economist confirms it. Every successful city invests in it. This isn't stewardship. It's bigotry. Restore the arts funding. Please do the right thing. >> We have time for two more if we if we hurry. Tana Downing and Adam M uh Macker
Maker Macker. >> Good evening. My name is Tan Downing and I'm a civil rights advocate and litigator from Washington DC. I'm here to provide a public notice to all of you. This in accordance with the USCS rules of civil procedure. So the Constitution United States is the
overarching requirement that every state must follow. I I'm sure that you all can agree with that. States cannot enact their own alternative legislation, substitute that for the guarantees constitution, then go out and enforce that as though that's constitutional. That would obviously be quite unconstitutional. So, clause one of amendment five to the United States
Constitution says no person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless presentment or indictment of a grand jury. That's clear. You got to have an indictment by a grand jury before arresting someone holding him over for a capital or crime. However, the state of Florida has enacted its own alternative legislation that permits prosecuting
attorneys and law enforcement to charge by way of information as opposed to indictment. That is unconstitutional. Now, an emolement violation is when you pay someone to break the constitution. There's two areas of constitution that actually reinforces this. The first is uh article 1 section 10 where it says
that no state shall create any law which shall impair the obligation of contracts. Police officers, prosecutors, they're all under contract. That's a contract to perform based upon the oath or affirmation that they took to support and defend the constitution United States. So when the state of Florida creates a law that directs those agents to disobey the constitution United
States, that would obviously be a direct violation of article 1, section 10. Now the second place that reinforces this is the 14th amendment. That's where it says that no state shall create or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of United States citizens. The privileges and immunities of United States citizens are at a minimum those that are enumerated
within the bill of rights in the first 10 amendments. they cannot be impaired and thus the state has created a law that is in that that they're enforcing that's uh in direct violation that of that particular amendment. So I'm here today to let you guys know that if we continue to pay these public officials to uh break the constitution that
criminal sanctions can come from that. I don't want to head down that path but I need to make sure that you guys are aware that paying people to bridge the constitution is a crime. It's a malignment violation and it is illegal. Now, I'm getting I'm getting ready to argue this on behalf of the more than 700,000 people uh that are currently in prison here in America illegally
unconstitutionally at the United States Supreme Court. And so, I'm asking you, honorable individuals, to please let's take a look at clause one amendment five, confirm the things I'm saying to be true, and then direct those agents to act in lawful constitutional matter so we can avoid any further litigation. I do have a notice that I need to put in the record. But before I do that, I want to say that I know that as soon as we're
done here, you're going to go to the attorney and you're going to ask that attorney whether or not what I'm saying is true. And that attorney is going to point you to a case from 1884 from the United States Supreme Court called Herertado versus California. And before you choose to rely upon that is the foundation. I must remind you that the Constitution of the United States of
America is the foundation, not a judge made ruling. The Supreme Court of United States has no constituted authority to be able to alter men or destroy any of the provisions or guarantees of Constitution. Furthermore, judges cannot legislate. We know that because clause one, article one says all legislative power is best in Congress, the United States. So, I know this is a tough a tough decision you guys are going to
have to make, but nonetheless, you're going to have to make it soon as we're done here. You're going to have to decide whether you're going to go and you're going to follow a judge made ruling, the lowest form of law, or the Constitution of the United States of America, the object to which if it is bound. I'm going to pray that you guys make the right decision. Thank you guys so much. God bless and have a great rest of your night.
>> Adam, where would you like me to give this chair the notice? Thank you >> to the clerk over here. Can you give him time to speak? And then >> Adam Meer, 313 Dirkson Drive in Deerry. I am here once again to discuss the
blatant and pathetic corruption of the Val Sheriff's Office, Internal Affairs, and especially Sheriff Mike Chitwood. In late 2021 through early 2023, after my license was suspended because of fraud executed through the clerk's office, I began submitting internal affairs complaints and aggressively speaking out
on social media. There were multiple attempts to take my life by poisoning and professional hit. Then, on February 20th, 2023, I bumped into Chitwood, totally by chance, right outside of his office. The sheriff looked directly into my eyes, barking. "What are you doing here?" he said, attempting to
intimidate. 6 weeks later, at midnight, my front door was kicked in with without a warrant for my home or property on two completely fabricated cases. And let's not forget about the events of August 27th, 2018, when my 21, can y'all stop talking, please?
When my 21-year-old girlfriend was allegedly blew her brains out with my pistol. How come I was never able to get the murder weapon retrieved? That was long before I was a falsely convicted felon. I deposed Sheriff Chitwood for over an hour on May 2nd, 2025, in which he fabricated information throughout,
claiming not to know who I was until after I filed my federal lawsuit. That was a bold-faced lie while under oath. Then, to make matters worse, on page 17 of the deposition, when asked if he would reprimand Sergeant Stickles for committing perjury, Chitwood clearly says yes. These these depositions took
place over 5 months ago. No action was ever taken. For any member of this audience or watching online willing to submit my citizens complaint form, shoot me a text either on Facebook or my cell and I will provide Shitwood's 73page depos deposition in which he made a complete ass of himself. It's not okay
to protect criminals just because they inherited $30 million worth of real estate. After you read the deposition, I'm sure you will agree it is time for Sheriff Chitwood to resign with his dignity prior to being humiliated in federal proceedings. I am so sick and tired of witnessing the social media darling that our sheriff
has become. Honestly, it's quite pathetic considering this man does not possess the moral backbone necessary to police a kindergarten classroom, let alone all of Valuchia. My entire life has been destroyed because of the incompetence and poor leadership of the Valuchia Sheriff's Office. The rule of law, the rule of law
is not properly respected in this town. Sheriff Chitwood has failed himself, his esteemed position, and the entirety of Valuchia County. I can assure you if any of you is able to to amass a significant amount of wealth and decides to leave that wealth to an individual, you do not do not want those funds being used to
pay off corrupt officials while attempting to have that individual murdered. Psalms 115:1 reads, "Not to us, Lord. Not to us, but to your name be the glory. Please, oh, sorry, because of your love and faithfulness. Please join me and submit
the complaint so we can finally rid our town of a very demonic force." Thank you. That's all I have. >> Thank you. And that concludes public participation for the beginning of our meeting. I'll hold I think we've got 22 more. I'll hold to
the second public participation. Don, did you still want to speak to the lawyer from DC? >> I was ask I was going to ask him for the citation to that California case. chairman. >> He's got the uh she's got the citation.
Thank you. Uh okay, that takes us to item one, the approval of the agenda. >> Motion to approve Johansson. >> Second. >> Motion to approve the agenda as written by Jake Johansson. Second was by
Councilman Kent. >> All in favor say I. I >> I >> any opposed and the agenda is approved seven to zero. And um we uh we will now
move to item two, the consent agenda. Um before I call our speaker, does anyone have an item that they would like to pull for a comment? Not to vote on but for a comment. >> Chairman, for comment items I, J, K, L,
and M. I, J, K, L, and M are pulled for comment by Councilman Johansson. Does anyone have an item they would like to pull for a vote? >> Chairman, motion to approve the consent agenda as presented. >> Second. We have a motion to approve by
Troy Kent, second by Councilman Santiago. And before we vote on it, I will call uh uh Deb Denny's to uh come and speak on uh item G. Good evening, Mr. Chair. Councilman and
staff, first of all, I'm Deb Denny's News of Beach, District 3. I'm here today as a governing board member of our Florida Communities Trust, the FCT to congratulate you on your grant award of $246,939 for our Door Sleeper Spruce Creek
Preserve. You should know that during the presentation process, Nick Dunham represented you well. especially noted that he showed up in person in Tallahassee, not just via phone. As board members, we are allowed to award up to 10 extra excellence points. Not
that your application needed extra e uh points because you scored so high, but Valuchia was in the house. My colleagues have heard my comments of lament through the years because of no applications from my own county. But that day,
Valuchia was in the house, and I made the motion to add the excellence points just for showing up to the support and smiles of my colleagues and staff. I'm here to congratulate you and encourage you. Valuchia has the added benefits of built-in match through our Echo and
Valuchia forever monies. Let's leverage those dollars. I'm going to share a couple of grants that have already been awarded. the city of Sebastian for a waterfront park extension 1.3 acres for reimbursement. Uh SCT grant was awarded
for 1,400 uh,000 60% with a 40% match from them of 694,000. Total project cost was over $1.7 million. The applications was for a park and open space actually included 1.5 acres of a
submerged land lease with the state. That can be done. Redevelopment of the project site consists of constructing a paso park including picnic facilities, playground, and a trail with benches, native landscaping, drainage features
will improve flood protection while also improving storm water runoff. And St. John's County, our colleagues directly to the north, the entire commission was awarded $3.5 million by our SCT towards a total
project cost of over 17 million. And the purchase of land is to expand the waterway access, provide a public park on the current waterfront parcel and protect the waterfront from residential development. Needless to say, there's much more detail to these
grant applications, but my purpose in sharing is to encourage you for applying for grants outside our normal box. These grant applications are public record, and I have an entire notebook that I will gladly meet with staff to discuss options and share successful
applications and their attachments. I look forward, just as I did with this grant, to make the motion to once again support Valuchia County. Great job, guys. Thank you for your for your comments. Uh we have a motion to approve uh the
consent agenda and a second if uh if we will take a vote on that and then go to items I through M uh just for discussion. Is there um any questions before I call for the vote? All in favor
of approving the consent agenda, please say I. I. >> Any opposed? And the agenda is approved. seven to zero. But we will go to item I uh for comment and on all of these.
Jake, do you need the uh person to come? >> No, but but she's already there. Thank you. Uh no, I I just want to point out to the public and and uh give a personal thanks to uh Donna Butler here. Um uh
transform 386 has done some great things. As as some of you are aware, I'm a co-chair on the flooding subcommittee for the round table of elected officials, and we've been keeping up on on uh what Donna and and Ben are doing
to to make our county a better place. And these five um uh items right here are indications that the ball's rolling. We gave uh we awarded a bunch of grants the other day to a bunch of cities in
some county and here's some task assignments to start turning dirt. So uh Donna and Ben and the rest of the team, everybody uh I appreciate everything you all are doing uh to get that money spent. I know uh bureaucracy it took us
a while to get the money. It took us a while to manage the money and it took us a while to expend it. But but here we are. So, I'm I'm pretty excited about this. Uh, a bunch of them are are analysis. Some of them are actual turning dirt. So, uh, let's get moving
and and go on to the next batch. I appreciate it. >> Well said, Donna. Okay, that covers all of them. Thank you very much. Uh we will then move to uh item
three which is a budget resolution award of contract to JJ Pro Management LLC for the Valuchia County Tax Collector Interior Renovation and Restoration. Uh David Santiago. >> Mr. Chairman, move to approve. Second Johansson.
>> Motion to approve by David Santiago. Second by Jake Johansson. Uh, >> as she timidly walks to the microphone, does are there any questions for council or for staff >> or for the uh >> Hey, Will Roberts is here also.
>> Okay, David, your name's just up for >> No, I just want to say I met with Will. Thank you for the meeting. Uh, he answered a lot of my questions, so that's why I move to approve. >> Yeah, I would keep your seat. Don't uh No other questions. All in favor say
I. >> I. >> Any opposed? And that resolution is passed seven to zero. Good. Good job, Mr. Tax Collector. Item four, road funding presentation by uh Tad Casper.
This is an item that was brought forward, brought back, I think, by Councilman Robbins to look at our road situation and um this is for discussion. >> Yes, sir. Good evening, Tad Gay Bear,
County Engineer. Uh this is, as you said, a discussion on road projects. You had uh wanted us to take a look at things beyond what we normally put in our road program. Uh for example, we normally put in uh uh capacity projects. That's usually our biggest most important uh aspect of the road program,
fixing the capacity problems we have on our road network. And we also have safety projects that we outline and uh and put in there. Uh this time around, you're looking for in addition to that or uh to help uh create situations where we've got better economic development
opportunities in different sections of the county. He wanted us to take a look at things just beyond or beyond capacity and safety. So, we took a look at uh what we've previously proposed and our road program. Next slide. >> Troy, did you want to interrupt or wait till the
>> If you don't mind, chairman, >> Mr. Casper, thank you very much. I I was just curious. I I don't know if maybe Mr. Robbins already had his answer question before this presentation just because we all got this. We read through. >> I'm not planning on going through all of it. Unless you had a question. >> No, I I didn't. I just wanted to see if
if everybody wanted to to see the presentation again, that's fine. But if not, then I think we're ready to rock and roll. >> Okay. Councilman Robbins. >> Thank you, Chair and and Mr. Ken. I think the purpose of this uh uh Mr. Ken,
uh, if we if we go back a little bit was trying to, uh, get to a a funding mechanism, I think, long-term for these because these affect all of our districts and and a lot of them are are much needed. I
have a couple uh, projects in here, uh, the bridge scoring on on Taylor Road that I'd just like to talk about uh, for a minute. if you can elaborate on that a little bit. Uh that you know some of these uh issues that are effects of these storms um are are are creating
some uh situations for for my constituents but uh I know we need some money for that project and we have >> what number is that? >> Um >> it's actually not on that list. >> Okay. >> That's more of a maintenance project. >> It was a follow-up email, but go ahead. >> Yeah, if you want me to jump into that.
So, uh, the bridge on Taylor Road, which is just, uh, east of four, uh, 415 W to Mocha Farms Road, has a scour problem. The piles are, uh, at a point where they're being exposed, and the bridge structurally has some issues, has some concerns. So, going in there and making
some improvements to that bridge would be certainly something that we could tackle. I believe we've got some money allocated to that. Ben can actually give a a better description of what uh, status is. >> Yes, sir. So, exactly what Tad said. Um, we had to put a load rating on the
bridge to reduce the uh the the weight of the vehicles that are allowed to drive over due to that scouring that occurred during Hurricane Ian. We are in design for uh what's called a crutch bent, which will uh restore the load rating to that bridge. And then um but
yes, we have uh programmed some funding um for that next year. We want to get that bridge back. It's actually the bridge itself is in really good shape. It's just this one or one pile that got exposed during the storm. So, it's worth saving and we we're going to need some
money to make that repair coming up here soon. >> Absolutely. Thank you. Um thank you, Ben, and and Tad. Uh but uh council, just u going back to what I said, I think what what led up to this is that we were looking for um a a a funding source, whether it's through
bonding. I think we had this presentation put together in lie of having a workshop because I think we can probably come to a a um maybe some solutions fairly quick. Uh I know uh Troy, I'm going to be relying on on you a little bit um in Orman Beach.
Can you explain uh how that worked for you guys? You were there for a while. >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, we had a dedicated millillage that we put for road projects. So there was no guesswork about how much money we were going to
have every year. We we knew exactly what we were going to have. We also did the same thing for renewal and replacement also, right? >> So we had renewal and replacement in Rose, but I know this is on Rose and and you're interested in that, but it would just simply be us looking at our millillage and and sitting down with um
George and our management team and and making a decision if we wanted to put a certain amount set aside specifically for that reason and that reason only. every year. >> Yeah. And I have I have no uh no issues
with that. Um you know, do we do it do we want to have that discussion uh now or should we wait till maybe January? Uh you know, because we have 5 million uh that that staff has been able to work into a budget. I think uh they had given
us uh some some bonding um options with that uh to to start tackling some of these. >> And I'll just say, you know, there's to me there's there's good and bad with it. I think the good outweighs the bad, but whenever you do that, you're taking money away from other things, >> right,
>> that you're not going to be able to spend it on. But when you have a need like roads and sidewalks and things like that, that's a good thing in my mind because those things don't fall to the wayside. So, I don't know. I mean, we could talk about it now. I don't know if George is prepared, if he has a millage
amount that he's been talking with staff about and said, "Hey, we could we could set this aside and it equals this much money every year." I don't know because I haven't had that conversation with him. But and if not, then we may need to come back. Uh George, hate to put you in the hot seat, but do you have y'all been talking about a a number or is that a
little premature at this point? >> A little premature, but we do uh he's pulled up the slide where we were trying to get to really was, you know, here are the opportunities that are out there for funding roads. And if you'll notice, of
course, we have property tax is one of the ones that's what you're talking about there. Uh the what we did in the past was the road bond second from the bottom uh where we bonded the gas tax. That's something
that uh we did successfully in the early 2000s. We actually uh you have to guarantee a a source like the gas tax. This that's consistent. We tried to pay some of it off with impact fees, but of course the
recession uh occurred. So, uh, there's pros and cons to doing that, but we were able to take $65 million, uh, and turn it into over $100 million worth of work by going out and leveraging that money with the DOT and
other uh, state funds. Uh, the last one there is general obligation bond. That's a little bit different and that's something that goes out for referendum. uh that's your most wide open as far as uh your ability and flexibility in
spending. Um but we would need time to to talk more about that if that's where you want to go. That's a would be a big commitment. But again, it would offer you uh probably the most flexibility uh if you really wanted to supercharge
the the road program. uh chair. Um maybe if we can get consensus to maybe uh have staff look at it, maybe put something together for us to see what it would entail. Um because I'll I'll be honest with you,
you know, I've I've been here 5 years now. Some people have been in government a long time, and they these projects almost seem like they never get done. And I know it's been a a a goal of all of us, you know, infrastructure, sidewalks, I need this bridge done. uh
but a a dedicated uh program where we can start making some meaningful headway um before I get in the ground. So um you know do we need just regular consensus for for that? >> I think this is so important. I think it
probably requires this just my opinion. y'all can discuss it and vote on it, but I think it would require a a workshop and then or because I don't think we can just ask him to bring back a millage rate. We've got all these options that
we really need to discuss. Some of them we can probably dispose of pretty quickly. Uh but I don't know that I don't know exactly what everybody's thinking, but everybody sitting up here wants to speak on this. So that's just >> Can I just add to my statement a little bit? Well, you can think about what you
bring in for Echo, all right, or forever, right? So, that's 0.02 brings in about between 12 and 13 million dollars a year. >> Add that up to what Tad will tell you that roads are running right now to take
a two lane to a four lane, it's probably the neighborhood, and he can correct me, but you're looking in a lot of cases around 7 to8 million a mile. We have a,000 miles of road. Not all of it, of course, needs that treatment, but we have we can identify. He has a map on
there that shows some of the problem spots. We have some bridges that need to be replaced. We have bridges uh that need to be built. Uh like Dun Avenue uh is one that would help relieve the problem at LPGA. LPGA is another, of
course, hopefully the DOT is going to come through with that. I believe they are. Uh but we also have Williamson South. That's a bridge that's needed to bridge basically between Daytona and Port Orange. So, the needs you could see
in the previous slides are great. Uh, and when you're talking about uh that amount of money, while $12 million a year would be great. Uh, we bring in about $20 million a year now in gas taxes slightly over. But that's what it takes just to maintain the thousand
miles of road that you have and do some of the resurfacing that's that's uh required. So we can come back with more numbers. Uh, but I think what we wanted to make sure we weren't going down a road that you didn't want to go to because I I do think probably in the
absence of a of a infrastructure sales tax, which would be your other amount, which I don't think I've heard anybody uh interested in, uh your other area would be bonding in order to do that. So if if you know we can have the discussion here today to make sure we're
all good and then yes we'll come back and it's actually a discussion that also would require the CFO uh in here as well to talk a little bit about uh some of the intricacies of bonding and borrowing who's he's become quite good at. Okay
>> Dad, how much do we need for that to uh square away that bridge there because people are going to people are having to go miles out of the way for just a >> trip. Danny, what tell us the I'm still not clear where it is. What's the intersection or >> it's right um >> Taylor and
>> it's right by the fire fire station on Taylor Road. >> It crosses Spruce Creek. >> It got there was 3T of water over it and it just >> decimated it. Um Okay. >> But pretty much uh chairman, >> it has a special permit only for emergency vehicles and it's causing
a lot of fines and a lot of issues there with DOT. And how much did we need for that, Ben? Um, we're looking at about probably threequarters of a million dollars to do the crutch bent and we should have the plans ready for bid here in the next 30 to 60 days. So, we're
hoping to get that underway here pretty soon. >> We're actually planning on using that um the $5 million that's in the budget now, but >> we do have other scour projects and bridge projects as well um that we'll need funding for at some point. >> And those are repairs, you know, not not
expansions. Uh and you'll see also we have a need for like the main street bridge uh which is really going into the the rehabilitation phase more than a repair. Uh again a bridge that was built in the 1950s. And if we could send that you guys put
together a great email with some of those other maintenance projects. If you can just send that because I think it spanned all of our districts. Um and then that way we can you know we know what everyone knows what we're dealing with. So thank you guys. >> Okay. Thank you. I'm going to call on everybody else that's up here, but I
want to ask one more thing of the council if maybe we could let staff know if there's any of these items that they don't need to waste their time on, whether it's property tax, sales tax, whatever it is. Um, let's vote to to
reduce the list if possible so that they can come back with something that uh we're never going to um >> chairman, you can take sales tax off for me, right? Right out of the gate. Never gonna happen for me. >> That's three of us. >> Yep. >> I think more than that. >> Okay, we can remove sales.
>> Thank you. That's what I exactly what we were looking for. Not surprised. >> Uh thank you, council. Uh Vice Chair Matt Reinhardt. >> Thank you, Chair. Um Tad, first off, thank you for the email yesterday kind of detailed maps. There was took me a minute to understand because there's a
lot of roads and bridges and color codes, right? Speaking of color codes, on page two and three, could you real quick define what colors? I mean, why it's that way? >> Sure. On the uh priority list, we'd set it up to try to make it a little bit easier to interpret which zone is which.
So, the color >> color just by zone. Okay. All right. Just want to make sure. >> Yeah. The highlight are projects that we uh are on the priority list, but we don't have the full amount of funding available with our current sources. >> Okay. So the funding types of things, you know, if you're going to go with either >> number number eight, the funding is
there for the Beville Road to Meline. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> And I was happy to see that um because I get a lot of questions about that. >> Sure. >> We've been talking about that and of course we saw everybody lives out there in my district has seen the >> the mow down the area uh that's going to go adjacent to that where the road's
actually going to be built. Um, of course they're still asking the question about Meline to Will Run >> and there's a fear of bottlenecking uh at that area, but the fact that it's backed up to to Matteline actually makes it a little bit easier for me to understand. >> Right. On the most recent priority list
that you all approved, we have that section of Waw from Meline down to Town West >> to Town West, which is just shy of Willow Run. >> Right. We just received $3 million from the Department of Transportation for the design on that. >> Oh. So, >> okay, good to know. that 23 million we have 3 million applied. We would need to
obviously come up with the remaining 20 million to go ahead and got >> poured into construction. >> And then the last question I had um I know it's not on here and I know we talked about it before but just for clarity for people that are listening the bridge
that is there any plan in the future for anything to do with that bridge that's on Williamson William I'm sorry the Williamson the one that crosses over 95. Yeah, that that's a part of that particular project. >> That's part of that project. Okay. Would be wide >> because I noticed it said it stopped it. If you're saying that there's money
approved or allocated from there to go to Willow Run, that's just shy. >> This is the entire plan. So, this would fill in the gap. So, we're not stopping at uh >> uh the plan is not really to stop at Willow Run. >> Previous project start stops at Meline. Then this would become the battle and go
all the way through and fourlane basically from >> uh the northern end after we complete that last section Strickland to hand all the way down to uh Port Orange. >> Okay. And then um George, thank you for bringing up about the main street bridge because that was another question I had
uh individuals that have asked me um and the Williamson to bevel that we just spoke about that's in the planning phase now. >> Correct. We're in design right now. >> Yep. Design and planning. Okay. So, how before ground breaks >> that could be done with design uh early part of next year and go to bed. >> Okay. So, we're looking close from what
we were >> correct. >> I appreciate it. And then lastly, this is more to and I know it's been asked by Mr. Kent, that bridge on LPGA, that little tiny one. >> That little bridge >> over the Tmoka River. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I know Mr. Chester put it on on social
media. I had He's right. He's right. That's a That's a nightmare. I hate going. >> Well, I mean, the entire stretch west of there is two lanes. So, I mean, the road be or the bridge being tight, it's no different than the rest of the road being tight, but that is a part of the section that we're negotiating with the Department of Transportation. >> I was going to say that's part of that
trade, >> right? They're going to basically take from west of Williamson and then uh all the way down to 92. >> Good. You just answered my next question. How much of that road is in the trade between there and Peninsula that we're >> All of it. >> Okay. And then we're taking Peninsula, >> correct?
>> Okay. And we don't know when that'll transpire. Uh, no. We're uh waiting on them to send back uh >> their comments on our last draft. >> Okay. All right. Thank you, chair. >> Thank you, Councilman Johansson. >> Yes, sir. I I just wanted to um
it'll be an interesting workshop for sure because we're looking at um about 80 different ways to cut uh property taxes. if we do a a geo bond that'll be packed with property taxes
probably that might not exist. Uh uh so so there's going to be some pretty healthy discussions. I'm sure Ryan will uh uh will do the best he can in ever so variable environment. Uh all things to
think about. I I think the the right now uh not enough money, but the the the safest option is probably a road bond because we're getting taxes or or a gas tax, but um you know, the bang for the
buck is probably with the geobotics, especially if we broaden it a little bit. So, uh, it's going to be a healthy discussion at the at the workshop definitely for me and I'm looking forward to hearing, um, good ways to get
a good bang for our buck. One of the one of the comments and and and complaints when we talk about impact fees is when people pay impact fees, they don't pay to pay for the whole thing. it's a part of the impact they make to let's say
LPGA. Uh so we put that money in the bank and by the time we get the money to pay for something fully uh it's eight times the price and that impact fee is is like one small portion of it. Here's an
opportunity to take some impact fees, take some bond money and take some matching grant money and really make an impact on on our community and and the infrastructure. So, uh, we we all got to do our homework when we
come to this workshop and we all got to know spend a lot of time with Ryan, a lot of time with, uh, Matt and Tad and and be ready to make a smart decision. So, I appreciate it. >> Yeah. Uh, good point. And that's just that's really what I wanted to say, uh,
Councilman Johansson, is I look at this potential funding list. We don't know what will be left on this if the governor puts property taxes on the ballot. It will pass because almost everybody hates property taxes. And then we don't know how we'll be funded for
any how will we build a bridge, how will we pave a road or build a sidewalk or or do anything. It's going to depend on possibly we're all looking in a crystal ball. May depend on what the state sees as important and that's what they're going to fund. hopefully, you know,
first responders will, but we don't know. So, what we're asking staff to do is look in a crystal ball and tell us what might be left. State and federal grants, will they come back? Who knows? Property tax, what will we what will they look like?
Um, uh, sales tax, that's probably how we're going to be funded at the county level. This the state sales tax will have to go up most likely. So that leaves road bondings and general obligation bonds if but again I'm also looking in a crystal ball. I don't know what we'll be left with but we're giving
you a hard task. We appreciate that and I will say when you get into road funding and it has its own unique characteristics but when you you're talking about the department of transportation and gas tax remember they index the gas tax. We do not we're not allowed to do that. That so we've not
been able to keep up with any kind of inflation and construction inflation far outpaced regular inflation and that's one of the issues. I mean we basically bring in almost the same amount of money that we've brought for the 30 years almost I've been here. So yet you know
that the prices of everything have skyrocketed. We used to be I remember giving a very similar presentation uh when we were talking about roads being around a million dollars. So you know that's what's transpired in
that particular period of time. So now uh you know uh again maybe the safer thing is the bonding of the gas tax but then we got to work on the gas tax because at the end of the day uh you know if we don't get to index it or and
then of course you also have electric vehicles cutting into it and other things too. So there's more and again I think a good strategy is to continue to work with the Department of Transportation and go to Tallahassee and help them too because they have been very good to us uh through the years
with road funding. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh Councilman Santiago. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll just be brief and I I agree with the workshop. I think we should weed most of this out in the workshop, but you know, you look at this list, there's just so much on it, right? And we clearly don't have the funds to do the whole list, right? Um
and and and and this is just probably the list that we felt that we could even put on paper. Uh there's much more out there. I was driving Howland Boulevard this week where I live nearby, the first section that was widened >> and you could see that it's starting to fall apart slowly and I said to myself,
this true story, I was like, man, we're going to need to find money soon to address this first section. And I said to myself, I don't know where we're going to get it. Mhm. >> So that being said is we have huge priorities on on road projects and we just going to have to make a tough decision soon guys.
Um waiting on the I agree with the referendum's going to go with the legislature is probably going to pass but we shouldn't wait for that because whatever that referendum happens and whatever goes from there is going to be years away. Um so we need to act and the workshop maybe give direction and and maybe it's a combination of multiple
things that we have here. I don't think we should just look at one uh funding option cuz you know we got to get serious about roads. Uh and I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just saying that we have to now going to have to make some tough decisions. Um and and I'm ready to make them. So I look forward to the
workshop. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Councilman Robbins. >> Oh, thanks. Um is it Ben? Ben still up here. Ben, do you know how much is um been spoken for out of that five million
>> roughly? I know it's off the I'm asking a lot from you right now. >> A lot of it's a lot of it's been spoken for. We've allocated some of it to uh uh say some safety projects that we're working on. Some of that depends on what we decide to do with Old Mission. Um whether we move forward with that as a
safety project or an expansion. Um, but yeah, all of that's pretty much been ex spoken for for this year. >> And and my followup to that is I'm I'm seeing some smaller I mean not smaller in comparison to some of these big ones, but like project name Orange Camp Road
widening 4 and 11,000. Would that benefit us? Uh, and then the other two were the Tamoka Farms Road number five extension alignment study. Would those is that lowhanging fruit? Is that
something we would benefit us addressing these like giving you direction today to use you know? >> Sure. >> Well, the uh the orange camp road widing uh was item number two on the 22 23 that's actually occurred already. >> Okay. >> Were complete and that's actually generated
>> the items that are noted as number two. Both those orange camp projects are the result of that study. Uh the Tamoka Farms road extension you can certainly we haven't started that. We have not uh brought a consultant on board. Uh so we have money allocated for that but no we have not uh have not done that. So
>> what action can we take any action today? What I'm trying to do is you know we we talk about this stuff over >> certainly you can certainly take action on that and direct us not to move forward with the farms study at this point in time move it down the priority list. If you want to move that over to some of the maintenance projects that
we've got that's fine. >> No I'm good I'm good with whatever direction we want to go. I just I just want to see what uh what and if there was anything that we can do uh today with our >> a good portion of what we've got funded
that uh has funded allocated to it is impact fee or proportionate fair share. Okay. >> So that's money that generally is not used for maintenance. It is for capacity projects unless the council makes the decision to uh to change that. Tad, Tad, just for clarity, I think I
heard you say earlier that the two highlighted projects, seven and 10, correct, >> are the two that are not fully funded at the moment, which I heard to say the other eight do have funding assigned to them. >> I just wanted to make sure that was clear for council.
>> You're talking about page two of the the list >> two and three. >> Two and three. One thing we would seek direction on, we've held off on that orange camp or the apartment, the old Mission Road safety project, uh, which is where we're moving the two lanes away from the canal
that's there to improve safety. Uh, we've held off on that because you'd request potentially going to four lane. We've stopped that project pending a decision or different direction. So the sooner I get direction on that, the better to a certain extent as to whether
or not we go fix that problem or we change. >> What are our options for that for that as we speak right now that's holding us up? >> Well, at this point I just need to know if we're going to if it's the council's direction to go to four lanes. If that's the case, then I tell the current consultant to stop work on the design
and then we start making modifications to uh to prepare for the design of the fourlane section. Our recommendation would be to stay with the safety project at this time. Uh as you see the needs are great. Uh and I just think that the
expansion of that particular road, they have other options. Uh when you start taking and you're talking about piping a canal or a ditch of that size. Now you're moving into the $10 million plus a mile
>> uh or area. So, let's My recommendation would be to go with the safety project that he has on there now. >> And I'm good with that. >> I'm good with that. >> All right. We'll get that moving forward. All right. >> Councilman Kent. >> Thank you, Chairman. Um, some of the
things I heard refreshing are David, I'm glad to hear you you talk about us making some tough real decisions in the near future. And, uh, Mr. Johansson, you're right. um you know, healthy discussion uh is what's needed with this. I I'll just tell you you this
council. I don't know. I know some of you get up to Orund um pretty regularly, others maybe not as much. But I would dare to say that Orman's roads are second to none in Valia County. And
why is that? Like why? Um because we had a roads program. because we put a dedicated millillage aside and said we're going to spend this on our roads every year because when you don't do that this is what happens and then we start relying on the legislature
and you're right David it's going to be a difficult decision and Jake a healthy discussion to have to say how much are we going to put aside because George is spot on when he says and and he's right it wasn't that long ago really at least I don't think so when it was a million
dollars a mile and now he's talking you two lanes are between seven and 8 million a mile. But if we don't do it now, listen, not just this council, but those that sit in these rented seats after we're gone. We're just burdening them.
Who we're really burdening are the taxpayers or our children that you're going to have to pay for this one day and it's just getting more expensive. So, I only say that so that if any of us are on the fence, we we kind of just have an open mind when we go into that
workshop setting about setting a a a certain amount of our millage aside for this. I don't know the staff's going to be crazy about it because when you take money from this pot, then you don't have as much left over here. But we got to make that tough
decision about infrastructure and roads and $12 million doesn't touch it. I I think we we've got to be talking like minimum like $50 million a year. And when you hear that, you think, well, that's not enough. But you know what?
You do that four or five years in a row, you'll be shocked at what you can get done. And then we're not trying to pull five million bucks out of this pocket to put over here for this pocket. And I look forward to that discussion because I've heard some I've heard some refreshing things on the day here
tonight. Thank you. >> It's going to it's going to come down to priorities. Councilman Johansson, >> which which Mr. Kent is why I'm kind of liquored up on some type of bond because because without saying without saying millage, you're
obligating millage to pay off that bond and and as as long as the as long as the interest rate is conducive to bonding, you are paying for that hopefully in today's dollars. The problem is you got
you got to spend that money quick. Got to spend that money real quick. Um um but but that gives us the opportunity to pay for a mile when it's $8 million a mile. instead of like we do with impact fees. We save it up. We save it up. We
save it up and go, "All right, Tad. Here's our $8 million bill this mile." He goes, "Well, that that was 15 years ago, brother. It's it's 20 million a mile now, and you only got eight." So, uh um we got to be careful about that. We don't know how we're going to back the bond, but but that'll come with
time. So, >> and and Councilman, maybe you'll be open to a hybrid approach where where we do a bond and we have a dedicated mill. Maybe the delicate millage is less amount because we're going to put so much out in a bond. I think it's a good idea. >> Keep in mind to start a road project is
not something we say, "Hey, let's go do it." And then we start moving bulldozers. It's going to take a couple of years to build build up the design plans and get uh get the rideway acquired for most of these projects. So, no way, Tad, that's why you're where you are. You're that good. We don't want to We don't want We can't wait years. You
got to have this stuff ready to rock and roll when we say the money's there. >> Okay. Councilman Santiago. >> Thank you. I'm going to throw a little bit of a curveball in here. Um because I know a couple minutes ago >> sales tax. >> Yeah, I am going to say sales tax because a couple minutes and I'm not
advocating for the sales tax, but I'm just making a statement that um I don't think we should be as shortsighted on that uh until we have the information, right? And I don't know where my answer lies because just an initial analysis of it, if we're talking millage or we're
going to try to hide it under a bond and the millage pays for it, guess who pays for it? the homeowners and and I'm again throwing all ideas out there. A sales tax is a sales tax if it goes that route is guess who it's paid by everyone. And the millions of I don't
know how many visitors we get it the visitors that come here all the time. So they pay for our roads too and they drive it. I know that the sales tax argument has been kind of sort of taboo because of the the the the failures, I'll use that word, of the last uh
attempt to do it um for whatever reasons or another, not looking to point fingers, but um I don't think it's I think it's shortsighted right now until we have the facts. I'd rather have staff saying, "Well, if we do bonding and do millage, this is who pays for it. This
is the amount. If we do sales tax, this is the amount. This is who pays for it. this is how it affects local residents. So, we shouldn't be uh confined to not looking at all the options until we have the data. That's I think the best approach. And and again, maybe it's a
hybrid of different things. And and if we go down, if there's support to go down sales tax, then we got to figure out what were the mistakes of the past. And I think a lot of that had to do with communication maybe and and and address those if it goes down that path. So, again, not advocating for it, but just I don't think we should eliminate it. I
think we should hear the data. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Councilman Johansson, I just one question uh to be asked if No, let's let it go for now. I'm looking forward to the workshop. >> Next item. Thank you for the
presentation. >> We have two members of the public that would like to speak to this before we uh make a final decision. First is uh Keith Jester. You can refer to me as troll if you'd like. It's fine. I wear it with pride.
The reason why the sales tax failed was because of things that had occurred before it. And we we plainly didn't trust the government to do what it was supposed to do. The sales tax is actually the most fair way to go because
the young people I always talk about that I advocate for, they pay some, but we pay too. Mr. Nicholson pays a little bit and he wouldn't mind at all. That way everybody's paying into the pot, but it started out as a sales tax
for roads and it grew and it grew and it grew and it got to be it was going to be a sales tax for whatever we wanted to do. So, I'm excited to hear y'all talking about doing something. The reason why you're where you're at today is because the can's been kicked down
the road for over a decade. Those people that that started all those politicians before you that started the cultural funding and all of that stuff when they should have been paying attention to the core governmental responsibilities
got you to where you are today. I'm not against culture. cultural things, but I'm against that when we have all these core needs that aren't being met that you're giving the money away. Regardless of what people say the return on investments is, your
core responsibilities aren't being handled and they haven't been. You don't want to be the council that was like the six, seven, eight councils before you that kept kicking the can down the road. Now we're to where we are. And I just beg you that whatever we do, it's got to
be something. There has to be a dedicated fund. Has to be a dedicated fund. It's not just about the big main roads. It's also about our neighborhoods. It's also about funding sidewalks. There's been a lot of growth down Marsh
Road. We've allowed Stson to put a facility down there. There's a dog facility that y'all approve down there. There's ball fields that Dan has down there. And certain times of day that road gets real busy. That's just one of
many. And there's some developments that have went back there. And then I call and say, "Hey, you know, it' be nice to extend the sidewalk out to 92 where there's a trail for safety. There's a lot of kids living here." And staff has to say, "Well, we only got $300,000 a year for
sidewalks." When we have over a,000 miles of roads, and that's that's pretty sad. So, I think we've got some priority issues that we need to to address. I'm excited that you're talking about it. The fact is is when we have wellbuilt
and welldesigned roads and infrastructure, it benefits everybody. Everybody benefits when you do your job well in this area from the businesses that want to come here that are able to >> Thank you.
>> get around to the citizens. Thank you, John Nicholson. to promote the sales tax. >> I absolutely do. Unlike you, I realize >> Okay, you're burning your time. >> John N. That's fine. Uh John Nicholson,
Daytona Beach Side. And yes, I believe that prices do go up. Uh couple of things. one, David, to answer your question, uh the half any sales tax was supposed to raise $44 million. All right. Uh the last time they did that,
looking into the figures, it was $68 million. So over the 5year period, it went up 50%. So it's only a half a billion dollars that you choose to give away or ignore for roads and and uh
improvements if you ignore the sales tax. So if you think a half a billion dollar gift from just the tourist, not the whole sales tax, just the tourist is a half a billion dollars over 20 years. Okay, I'm not about to really ignore
somebody giving me a half a billion dollars when I need it. All right, so that's your sales tax. But personally, I think all five should be looked at. There's absolutely no way you're not going to look at at grants. All right, you're you're going to look at federal grants. You're going to look at state
grants. That's a given. All right. Um, the reason why the sales tax actually failed was the impact fees. People were tiffed that you went 17 years and would not raise impact fees. But then you turn around and say, "Oh, we need to tax you
to do the roads for the new development." Do you understand why they said no? And almost all the people responding said it was the impact fees. Well, now you've raised it. And Daytona Beach after 19 years finally raised it. They were a little bit late. So that's a
that's a given. All right. Yes, it did go obnoxiously all over the place. Oh, we want roads. We want benches. We want lights. We want flowers. I mean, that's not what they want. They want the basic. They want the road. All right. If you can guarantee there's a list right here.
This is where the money is going to go. And another section is this is where the money is going to go for flooding. I'm telling you that flooding is an important issue right now and it will play an important fact on the elections.
So if you put a sales tax, half penny sales tax, half going to infrastructure, half going to flooding and listing just these it will pass. All right, you've done your impact fee. You've done what you can do. We have two, I think it was
200 million quote uh a year ago of what we needed. We're not going to ever get the $200 million. Now, it's easy to look at what Orman got from whatever percentage they did because I'm in favor of that putting
that little in. How much would that raise? If we look at what Orman did, if we do the same, nobody from what I understand ever complained about or >> thank you. >> They wouldn't have complained about us as well. Thank you. Okay, that ends
public comment on that item. Um, so let's wrap this up. Uh, we're asking the staff to bring this back for a workshop. We a few minutes ago got a consensus to take sales tax off. I did not ask for a
formal vote. I looked it up and down and everybody and somebody made a motion in the second. I didn't hear. I think we need to take a formal vote on that because I don't want to ask them to waste time on an item. >> Mr. Chairman, um
I'd like to discourage us from taking a formal vote on it. I I I think I think it should just be us discussing to say bring all options to us. Just bring all options to us. >> We did that before and and everybody shook their head. >> No, I I I know. I know. I think it's
just best for for all of us. uh it's cleaner to say bring all options to us for discussion and consideration and at that point we can decide. I think I would agree in that look at we what we can do is we're going to have the numbers you
almost have them here right so we >> okay >> it's not about that it'll come into what are some of the processes that would be needed to do the road bond or do the general obligation bond I think we kind of know what the sales tax procedures going to be and we could talk touch on
that if you were to go down that road be you know and even in the general obligation let me point out. I believe that's something that has to go to the voters as well. So, when you're talking voters, uh you're going to have a similar, you're going to have to have a program like you said, you're going to have a list and then and so we would
look at that versus the road bond being something where you're going to take our sales I mean our our gas tax and and look at that. So, I think we can put together a pretty good uh and concise workshop and just dig, you know, here's
the the dollar amounts, here are the lists, and then we can u here here are the options, what they entail. >> Okay. And from what I'm hearing from everybody, and I'll let you close it, Ted, is it uh you bring it back at not a time certain, but when it's ready and
>> Yeah, I think you're going to have your goal setting in in uh in January. Uh I I you're going to have I think we ought to touch on other stuff with that and then do the roads maybe right there after
maybe in February if that works. Okay. Anything else >> to add on that? >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Um item five is a quasi judicial hearing on a proposed vacation of a portion of the
map of how and courier's uh aotment. Um motion to approve. >> Second Joe Hansen. >> Okay. And then hold up a second. We have a motion to approve uh Councilman
Robbins. The second was by uh Councilman Johansen. Does anyone have any uh exparte to declare? >> No. Okay. >> None. >> I just needed to get that in. >> Um does anybody need a presentation?
>> Okay. Any questions? All in favor of the proposed vacation, please say I. >> I. Any opposed? And it's approved. 7 to zero. Uh item six, ordinance 2025-16, smallcale comprehensive plan amendment
from the agricultural resource uh to rural future land use designation for a 1.01 acre property located on Northell Road to land. >> All right. Good evening. Carol
McFarland, planning and development services director. Um, item six is a future land use amendment and item seven is an accompanying resoning application. So, with your permission, I'd like to do the presentation for both items at once.
>> Okay. Then, if if we're going that's great to do it that way. Let me ask if there's any exparte from on that and Troy's out of the out of the >> Okay, go ahead. Proceed. >> All right. So when you vote, the vote will have to be separate, but we'll do
the presentation as one. >> So this is um a 1 acre parcel uh located on the south side of Shell Road. Its future land use is uh agricultural resource which has a density of one dwelling unit per 10 acres and the
zoning classification is A1 private agriculture also one dwelling unit per 10 acres. They are a non-conforming lot at 1 acre. So they're asking for a rural future land use designation which allows
density of one dwelling unit per five acres. It can go down to one dwelling unit per one acre under certain criteria in the comprehensive plan. Um staff found that it did not meet those criteria. So they asked for a re denial.
the Planning and Land Development Regulation Commission um forwarded to the county council with a recommendation of denial. Um they found that there could have been better due diligence. Um but I would say that this is um next to
what's called a rural recreational area. It's a historic fishing camp and hunting camp. So you do see some lot sizes to the west that are a bit smaller than what you would see in prime agricultural area. There's three little parcels. I
think you can see it on the map above that are all one acre. Those three parcels of which this one is the middle one is from an abandoned 1926 plat. Those three parcels were the first three sold. And after that uh the development
fell apart and nothing else was sold. the v the plat was vacated. So, um with that public the PLDRC heard the um case on July 17th, 2025, voted to deny on a 42 vote and I am here for
questions. >> Okay, questions for staff. Uh Councilman Robbins. >> Thank you, Chair. Um thank you, Carol, as well. What What are our options? You know, when I when I look at this, if we can pull the map back up and I I see what
the PL I I see the concerns, but I also see, you know, there was some some obvious intent back in in 1926. Um and and obviously it's it's probably since uh changed, but as you said, it's
kind of like a a recreational. It's kind of like buying a lot up against um Ocala National Forest or uh even out here in Tiger Bay. I mean, there's three non-conforming lots there. How do we counsel or chair? How do we look at the
the property rights issue, uh, you know, and and let them let them possibly um I mean, do something. I mean, what's the purpose of having land if maybe you know, you can't put a >> If I could, I would just say that the
future land use um amendment that is a legislative decision. And so the council does have some discretion in that, >> right? Um, and those are the only three parcels that that are non-conforming. >> Correct.
>> They are actually both owned. The two on either side are both owned by the person who owns the big 40 piece acre to the south. >> So those are all in one ownership. >> So it's the the middle one that's really the >> Yeah. Yeah.
I'm open for suggestions. You know, I'd like to see everybody kind of I'd hate to deny somebody a a use. I mean, I'm familiar with this area. It's it's rural and it's um outdoor recreation, you know, camping
and stuff like that. So, >> so staff recommended denial because it didn't meet all the criteria. What didn't it meet? There is a criteria that says um that in order to have the lower lot sizes that
it be adjacent to an urban land use. Um the fish camp is a rural land use. >> Okay. >> Carol chair, I'm sorry. >> Yes, >> Carol. How much where it's where the map
is in red? How big are some of those parcels like three parcels away? Like those long thin ones? very small. Yeah, it it goes from, you know, two acres, looks like one of them is three acres down to probably, I'm going to guess 7,000 square feet.
>> So, you'd say like a half acre all the way up to >> Right. >> So, I mean, we have some of these small lots council. I mean, one lot away. I don't know, Don. What do you think? You look you were munching on
any before before any other questions for Carol. Do you have a question for Carol? >> No. >> Let's do questions and then and then debate the uh Okay, there's no other questions. So, uh Don, you didn't have your name up, but
if you'd like to answer his question. I don't have any opposition to their request. I just I I kind of agree with you, Danny. I'm kind of a property rights person, so I >> I can make the motion open it up, Don, if you'd like. >> Yeah, sure.
>> Uh council, I'll make the motion to approve uh ordinance 2025-16, the smallcale comprehensive plan amendment. >> Okay. Uh Councilman Robbins makes a motion to approve.
And that was seconded by Don Dempsey. Uh, Councilman Johansson. >> Thank you, sir. I I like the idea of of getting the Yes. I talk about that all the time, but I also
stress the importance of personal responsibility and and this lady or gentleman, this person bought this property and and and now is trying, as I understand it, to to make it fit his
needs, which which had no future land use of those needs. Um, if we go down this road, and I have no problem going down this road, but we can't stand on our high horse in 3 weeks
and go the zoning doesn't say it can be that way and therefore we can't do it. If if we're going to have latitude, we got to have latitude on on every uh every time. And and and we don't sometimes. Um, uh,
I I like getting to people where they go. It looks like it's out in the middle of nowhere with a lot of things just like it right around the corner. Um, um, but but I'm I also have a personal responsibility piece. Know what you're buying and know what you can do with it
and know what you can't do with it. Um, uh, we've run into this before. So, uh, I just caution us if we go that way. Thank you, Councilman Robbins. Uh, >> thank you, Chair Carol. Do you have the
language uh in in plot description from back in 1926? What it says? >> Um, I do not have that in front of me. I have looked at that plat. Um, it's a very standard one sheet plat. Um, what
what would you be interested in? >> But was it acceptable back then? >> We didn't have zoning back then. I know but would it have been I mean it's obviously broken down into into boxes so obviously it was uh um conforming or fitting for that time. I know it 100
years but >> yes those three parcels are whole lots from that plaque. >> Thanks Quest question for >> Councilman Santiago >> question for for Danny. Um, just wanted you to help me
how your argument on the question that you just made to staff if you don't mind because I'm on the fence. Um, can you help me understand your argument and your point that you just made and how that pertains to us approving this today? Well, if you look at the other
map here, it looks like they made this whole that was the direction that they were going where these small non-conforming lots back then and these ones carried over somehow or got left out. I'm looking, you know, yeah, probably, you know, the
guy could have did a little bit more due diligence, but but zoom out a little bit and look at everything else. We can't say it's not consistent with the area because it is what? 50 feet over they're allowed to do it and 50 feet this way they're not. Uh you know what I mean? I
see a consistency there. Um like Jake said, I I just want to get somebody to to a yes, you know. Um >> can can I ask another question, Mr. Chair? >> Yes. And then are you going to help us with this? >> Yes, sir.
>> I'll wait. >> Yeah. Uh Ray Tiner, good evening, everybody. Uh when Carol was doing her presentation, she was talking a little bit about uh uh extra comprehensive plan criteria that's um that staff felt at
the time uh wasn't consistent or your planning board did. Now that is uh being adjacent to urban, right? Um it needed to be adjacent to urban. So that criteria was not met. But however, uh as Carol pointed out in the presentation, it's actually not rural next to it
either. She talked about the different lot sizes and some of them are are pretty small. So, as a legislative matter, you could probably make that determination that it is adjacent to an urban type use.
>> Question, Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> So, where would be the closest urban type use? Is it that pink area? Is that what you're suggesting? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. I'm I'm ready. >> Okay. Uh, Councilman Kent.
>> So, we uh the seven of us have served together coming up on three years. And what I find interesting is I'm sitting here and um some things are are are pretty predictable and I like that because um I'm learning about you gentlemen and and where you stand on
things and Jake wants to get to a yes. Uh and I appreciate that. And Danny, I have found, is is usually the one who is trying to um explain to us why we need to change the rules that we have in place. And I have historically been that
guy who's like, "This is what the rules say. This is what you're going to do, and you knew what you were buying when you got into it." So Jake, I'm I'm with you on that. And Danny, I want to also be like Jake with this and say, "Let's get to a yes." But I'm leaning more towards a no on this one because you
knew what you were getting when you were buying it. And and when does it stop? When do you say, "Okay, so you're 50 feet away, but why not? What's wrong with 500 feet away? You know, it's only 500 feet, you know, thousand feet away. It's only a thousand feet away. Like
when does it stop?" Um, so I'm I'm just I'm kind of big on we have rules in place for a reason. Let's follow those rules. Um, that's where I am. Thanks. >> Thank you, Councilman Dempsey.
>> Well, maybe I can get you back over, Troy, because it's um, you know, it ends when you say it ends. When this DAS sends it says it ends, whether it's us or the next council or the following councils, I mean, this is out in the middle of nowhere. I don't see the harm in this. I agree with what Danny's
saying. I don't I mean moving you know so many feet over from an urban type of setting already I don't think it's that big of a deal if we're none of us are that smart that we can sit there and make these rules and these rules are always the correct ruling no matter how
they're applied. We are not dealing with a one-sizefits-all set of rules that applies in every scenario. You know rules are subject to interpretation and there's always exceptions to the rule. And so I I think it's I think it's the highest and best use of this property if
this is how this land owner wants to do it. I don't see any harm with it. I agree with what Danny's saying. So I'm a I'm a yes on this. Thanks. >> Okay. Um I I have a I have another question. Sorry, I know we're we're past questions, but this discussion is has
made me think of Daytona Park Estates. So, I'd like to ask staff. Um, has Ben here? Does anybody uh George, are you aware of um I'm I'm I'm thinking about George is
not here. Suzanne, >> good afternoon. I I'm going to hope that uh Tad or Ben are listening and and are on their way into the I think you're going to ask about road maintenance and >> how does it get to is the county going to have to maintain the road which
becomes a a nightmare at times? What about sewer? Um >> I don't think we have any sewer. Uh but there would be septic. Carol, do you have any information on the condition of Shell Road uh currently?
>> No, I do not. Okay. >> Okay. Here come the gentlemen. Thank you for your patience. >> Ben, I was just asking about on on u on item six, the shell road. If this is approved, how does it affect your does
it does obligate the county to maintain his entrance road for him? >> No. Um, typically in these situations, the uh entrance road, we if it's not to a county, if they're not building it to a county standard, then we have them uh
file a notice to future owners that they're obligated to maintain the road in perpetuity. >> Okay. >> To a to a minimum standard that allows fire department access and things like that if they don't want to build it to the county standard. >> My concern is I've seen that happen a
lot of times. >> I think that road is maintained right to the >> Yeah. Well, Shell Road is ours. Yes. >> Right. >> Shell is ours. >> I thought you were talking about if there was an access road coming off of there, but yes, Shell Road is ours to maintain. We maintain that road currently. >> Okay. So, then his entrance way is
obviously his to maintain. >> Yeah. Be his driveway off of the road. >> Is there a driveway there now? >> I'm not aware if there is one or not, but he would have to construct one. He'd have to get a use permit from us at the >> All right. Thank you. Uh, Councilman Robbins, Chair, just to help answer your
question, I I've been out there quite a bit because there's a um a boat ramp right at right at the end. It's kind of like a um that old fish camp there. And uh that road is God almighty. Uh it's actually a very
well-maintained road. It's super wide um washboard at times, but that's standard with a uh shell road. But I don't I wouldn't see any is there's no access issues there. And plus two, I believe that's part of the forest. uh one of the one of the forests there and they log it
quite a bit uh at times and do control burns. So they're they're you can get equipment in and out of there. There's no I'd say there's no emergency >> okay >> issues. All right. We have two members we have one member of the public that wants to speak on six and one on seven.
Um Gerald Lewis. Gerald, are you still here? I'm afraid that if I don't have you speak now, you might not if we don't approve this then seven dies. So, um, you can come up first and then John Nicholson also wanted to speak on this
item and then we'll proceed with a vote. >> Uh, Gerald Lewis of Deberry, Florida and owner of the property. >> Okay. >> Um, I'm just hoping that it does swing my way. Um, when we first looked at it,
uh, we were, uh, looking at the idea that it would be a difficult situation to turn it over. uh because of the three other the two other lots at the time and we didn't know that it was uh owned by the uh larger individual
uh that owns all the property there. But uh still it was you know close to the existing residents and we felt that you know at this point um I did not know that there was that much of a challenge with the um
uh with the conforming aspect of it. I thought it's a piece of property. It's an acre, you know, probably I think it was lot more than most of the other area, you know, other lots in the other portion or the fish, you know, camp area. I thought it would, you know, it's
going to be our residents, you know, for the future. So, I didn't think it was going to be that much of a a major uh problem at that point, but again, it is what it is. You know, I hope that uh you know, we can, you know, work it out uh because I'd like to be able to build on
that on property uh for my wife and I, but it is what it is. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you, >> John Nicholson. John Nixon uh Bside looking at the maps. I like the idea of
existing future land use map, proposed future land use map, both yellow except for this property. Um, once you start down a road, and I saw this in Miami, and I've seen it here in
especially Daytona Beach, uh, once they go in, it's built. Now, you've heard from more than one resident of Lucia County about overbuilding. All right, flooding comes up all the time, and they
all relate the flooding to overbuilding. Now you're going into a virgin area that is not developed. All around it is developed. So when you start to go into this and he now has a small piece of
property that's been reszoned and the gentleman that owns that entire yellow piece of property is entitled because everything around it is zoned for uh small lots. It would be in his best interest if you owned all
that yellow property to develop it into small lots. It makes you a heck of a lot more money than keeping it as it is. But if our future land use says we want to keep it residential as long as we can, you don't want to incrementally
break that down. And people say, "What's the matter?" Because it's across the way. It's X, Y, and Z. Well, across from my house on A1A are stores. I don't want them next to me. Although there is somebody pushing the city to allow stores
anywhere in my neighborhood because I'm beachside where all the tourists are. So, they want shops and whatnot right next to my house. They wanted parking for motorcycles for a mile either direction from Main Street.
Parking, paid parking is commercial. It would really change the character. I think if you start with this one lot, it'll start the ball rolling and it will change the character of the area. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Um council, I'll just say this and um I've been sitting on the the fence, too. I hear the property owner and uh you know your your heart wants to say yes. Um I've been as you know opposed to
changing comp plans zoning um actually because of the reasons that Mr. Nicholson just said once you do that it it often does start a cascading effect. However, usually when it comes to us to do that, it's for somebody with
a large piece of property that does want to change the character of a neighborhood with hundreds of of houses. Um I everything around him staff said was owned by one person.
>> I just looked staff is gone. >> I apologize. What was the question? >> Everything around Mr. Lewis's property is owned by one person. and it's agricultural resource. >> It's it's a business entity. It's an LLC. Um and there is timberland
operations on the larger parcel. >> No intent right now to change it. >> We do not have any applications for those properties. >> But if we change this, >> it would still go up to the county council. If we change this one, it's um
well, I could do that too and sell this land uh for development, but you would be limited to one house per unless we do what we're doing right now and change it. Currently, u agricultural resource is one house per >> 10 acres
>> and the rural is one house per five acres. >> Okay. Uh, Councilman Robbins, Carol, why couldn't it be changed to like an RR, which is still a rural designation, which is a minimum of 1 acre. Is that what this is?
>> That's what the reasonzoning application is. Yes. >> Okay. So, it's still a rural It still fits the rural character and contour of our our comp plan. >> Correct. >> Thank you, >> Councilman Santiago. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just to follow up on the chairman's questions, I
want to make sure I understand, too. I know you referenced the uh the other property owner, the larger parcel, and what's to stop them from coming in? I think you'd ask for that, right? Um but don't they already touch the pink area? >> They do. Yes. >> So, it would the the the dilemma here
with this one, part of the dilemma is that it didn't touch the pink area. >> Correct. >> So, it's kind of separate two different things. >> It touches the pink area already. So, I just wanted to make sure I was under clearly understanding that. So, thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Yeah. I just don't want to see the whole area go pink.
>> Okay. >> So, >> saying that they had the right. That's what I mean. >> Yes. Okay. >> All right. We have a motion on the table uh by Councilman Robbins to approve. A second uh by Don Dempsey. Uh
Chris, would you call the role? >> Mr. Dempsey? >> Yes. >> Mr. Johansson? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kent? >> No. >> Mr. Mr. Reinhardt, >> yes. >> Mr. Robins, >> yes. >> Mr. Santiago, >> yes.
>> Mr. Brower, >> no. And the motion passes uh for approval. U 5 to two. >> All right. Item seven, >> move to approve.
>> Item seven is the second half of item six. And Mr. Santiago makes a motion to approve. Second by Danny Robbins. All in favor say I. >> I. >> Any opposed and six and seven carries uh unanimously
since six was approved. Item eight, second public hearing concerning resolution of the county council of Valuchia County, Florida, expanding the geographical area of the county seat pursuant to Florida law for the
>> second >> the new sheriff's building. U motion to approve by Vice Chair Reinhardt and the second was by Councilman Santiago. Any questions for Russ Brown?
All in favor say I. I. I. >> Any opposed. And motion carries. Seven to zero. Item nine, authorization of reimbursement resolution of preliminary matters for capital uh improvements, not
envelum. Ryan Ryan Osowski. Move to approve. And you were just waiting for him to speak. Okay, we have a >> I've attached a pretty comprehensive agenda summary. If you have any questions, I'm here.
>> We have a motion to approve by David Santiago. I did not hear the second was from was from Danny Robbins. >> Okay. Uh any questions for Ryan? Any debate?
All in favor say I. >> I. Any opposed? And motion carries six to zero. I think he said his vote was affirmative on the way out. So motion carries seven to zero. Uh good job,
Ryan. Uh item 10, budget resolution, acceptance of FAA release and authorization to purchase Holenback property from Daytona Beach International Airport. >> Motion to approve. >> Second. >> We have a motion to approve by Vice
Chair Reinhardt. Second was by Councilman David Santiago. Any questions for Ryan Osowski? >> No, no questions, but I'll just tell the council. I I spoke with George about this. I just found this weird and George explained the weirdness to me
>> with Hulson back and airport property and we're paying for it from this fund. I I get it, but I just wanted the council to know. I was like, what's going on with this? >> I'm good with it. >> I bet you're not the only one. I I Ryan answered the question for me.
>> That that weirdness is exactly why we're here with this item to try to put an end to that weirdness. >> Yeah. It saves us money >> was the bottom line for me >> out of the general fund and gives the airport some capital funds it can use as well. >> Yes. >> You're welcome.
>> Any other questions? Uh debate? All in favor say I. >> I. I. >> Any opposed? And that item passes six to zero. We'll get Danny's vote on item 10 when he comes back. Um, and we have item 11 is
an appointment to the Sunreil Customer Advisory Committee. >> Correct. You only have one applicant. Mr. Satchfield is um seeking reappoint. You do have to ride Sunreil three times a week and he does >> move to approve. Mr. Satzfield.
>> Second. Johansson. David Santiago makes the motion. The second is from Councilman Joe Hansen to appoint reappoint Mr. Satchfield. Uh any questions? All in favor of the appointment, please say I. >> I.
>> Any opposed? And that also passes six to zero. And we will get Mr. Robbins vote on item 10. >> I >> So that becomes seven to zero. And item 11, the appointment of Satchel.
>> I >> probably not saving his name right, but apologize for that. And that brings us back to public participation for all of you that have waited. Um,
>> Jake, >> uh, I'm going to do what I did before and call several names so you can come up and get ready. Okay. Um, first we have uh uh Janet
Pots Patsu. I'll try with it. Pardon me. >> Pik. >> Yes, >> that's a that's a CK at the end. Okay. Thank you. And then Troy Henderson and Tara Wow. >> Okay. Um, good evening gentlemen. My name is Janet Podik. I live in the
fourth district, Orman Beach. I'm here as a local example of what the DC lawyer Tana Downing was speaking on tonight. I'm a wife, a mother of four, and a resident of Valuchia County for over 10 years. I'm also a homeschooling mom and have directed multiple homeschool co-ops
here. My husband taught in Valuchia County schools, excuse me, and three of our children work locally. Prior to May 14th, 2025, I had no criminal record and had never been in trouble with the law. On that day, I was falsely arrested by the Orin Beach Police Department on a
thirdderee felony charge interference with child custody related to a family court case that I was not even a party to. My bond was set at an astounding 200,000, more than many violent offenders receive. This arrest came just
one week after a Valuchia County family court judge during a family court case involving our close friend threatened to quote unquote put someone in an orange jumpsuit if the 16-year-old son did not return to his abusive mother's home after running away. My false arrest
happened as a result of my family being misrepresented in a family court case that we weren't a party to. Because of our efforts to support our friend Troy Henderson and his children, we were slandered and defamed by the guardian adidam which the judge allowed. Over the duration of the Henderson's family,
Henderson family's time in the family court. We watched as many abuses of power took place. My children's best friends for close to 10 years were the children involved in this case. And what happened to them was absolutely heartbreaking. In January, a family court judge put in an exparte order
which violated due process to take one of the minor children unlawfully from his father's home whom he had been living with exclusively for 15 months into the the abusive mother's home against his will. The judge then recused herself with no explanation. The ne the
next judge then upheld this unlawful order and a 12-year-old boy was forcefully removed against his will by police and a corrupt guardian advite. At that point, it was court-ordered that both minor children have no contact whatsoever with their father. There was never any allegations of abuse against the father. He was always the protective
parent and the mother was under DCF investigation. Sorry. The week before my arrest, I attended Troy's final divorce hearing. My husband and I stayed in the hallway since we might be called as witnesses. Over three days, we witnessed alarming conduct. The children were never allowed to speak.
even in private to the judge. The guardian ad light and misrepresented him and the judge repeatedly stormed out of the courtroom, slamming the door. The guardian ad lightum was seen entering the judge judge's chambers privately and coaching witnesses. At one point, the judge called everyone from the hallway into the courtroom to threaten jail. 7
days later, five officers came to my home and arrested me in front of my family and 8-year-old son. After several days, my elderly parents bonded me out with $20,000. In the days that followed, it became very apparent that our arrest was based on false information, not
indictment. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, Troy Henderson. My name is Troy Henderson. I'm in the fourth district. Um, I'm a father of four and can no longer stay silent about
the corruption, misconduct, and systemic failures that I experienced firsthand in our local family and criminal courts over the past 18 months. During my time in family court, I was denied access to counsel by a general magistrate and a judge. I was barred from presenting critical evidence, prevented from
calling witnesses in key hearings, and excluded from illegal exparte hearings. The guardian adidam who was neither certified by the state nor impartial misled the court DCF and therapist. She engaged in inappropriate communication with one party even gifting that parent
items all while coercing my children into arrangements that they did not want. She perjured herself in court, held private unlawful meetings with the judge and showed a blatant disregard for truth or neutrality. In December 2024, I was forced to
represent myself before the first judge, defending against false allegations of parental alienation. During that hearing, the so-called therapist admitted that his claims were based on discredited pseudocience. However, in January 2025, during an active hearing,
that same judge issued an unlawful exparte order which led to the forcable seizure by Orman Beach police of only one of my children without providing me the ability to present any exculpatory evidence. The next day, that judge recused herself and left my child with
the parent under an active DCF investigation and cut off from me and his brothers. Not being able to communicate with my son and having no idea when I would see him again was devastating not just for him but for his brothers and me.
The judge who took over was even more erratic. She had emotional outburst in the court, stormed out of the courtroom, threatened the entire courtroom with jail, met privately with the guardian adidam, refused to hear from the teenagers involved, even though the police said they would make that happen,
and reversed her own oral ruling in writing with no legal explanation. When my two youngest children ran away from their abusive mother to escape unsafe conditions, my best friend Janet Potsik, who just spoke, and I were trying to help them and were falsely arrested on information not indictment
for thirdderee felony with inter felony interference with child custody. We were jailed under an exorbitant $200,000 bond, even after no contempt finding in the family court and no credible evidence from the state prosecutor.
Meanwhile, those who violated the laws and procedures, the judges, the court officers, and others have faced no accountability. This is not justice. It's a broken system that punishes parents for speaking up and enables unchecked power and puts children at risk. I respectfully urge this council
to investigate this misconduct, starting with judges, magistrates, and guardian aditum. We need transparency, accountability, and reform before more families and children in this county are harmed. [Music]
Thank you. Um, Ter, is it Terra Laauo? >> My name is Tara Lao and I'm speaking as a mother and a Valuchia County resident for my family and others across the seven judicial circuit whose trust in our institutions is breaking down. Families here are being silenced, retaliated against, and denied due
process. Court enabled abductions and school restrictions are happening with no hearings, no evidence, and no accountability. The systems meant to protect our children now protect themselves. In my case, I was indefinitely barred from my children's school in Valuchia County. No notice, no
hearing, cut off from my child's IEP process, stripped of rights guaranteed by law. When I sought relief, I was blocked from filing. I'm now labeled vexacious. While my children were taken and returned and taken again, no abuse, no neglect, then placed under the
control of a documented substance abuser. Doctors and therapists have confirmed no concerns with me. Yet, false statements from again another guardian at Lightm and my abuser were accepted as truth. I am I'm I have even been gagged from naming that guardian at Lightum now who still is working in
Valuchia County cases harming other families. These restrictions followed off-record communications between court administration Mark Weineberg and Chief Judge Lease who Valuchia today just interviewed on October 13th. This happened after I exposed serious
misconduct. Then on July 22nd, right here in this chamber, envelopes bearing the name of the deceased clerk Diane Matusk were waved publicly. Legal mail tied to my active criminal court case was sent in her name years after her
death. After that meeting, Councilman Don Dempsey held a private discussion without the public present. His law office works alongside attorneys implicated in these very same harms, including Brett Casian, who continues to intimidate parents through threats and
emails under protection of the courts, the sheriff, and the Dan Police Department. Meanwhile, county and city attorneys accessed my criminal case using their government credentials despite being nonparties. I asked why, and not one of you has responded to my
emails. That should have triggered investigation. Instead, it's been nothing but silence. A deceased official's name is still being used on official mail, and no one has explained how or why. The only responses I've received is from Sheriff Mike Chitwood
calling me mental and crazy and the clerk counsel Antonio James threatening me to stay quiet. Let it be clear I will not be silenced. Th this council can't control judges or the sheriff. I am very well aware of that. But it can lead and I'm going to ask you that you proclaim
on the May 25th the family abduction awareness day be countywide following Daytona Beach's lead that Chris uh Fedler wrote Mr. Brower and you guys you did a a proclamation for that. I'm asking it be go countywide. All of our families are being affected in Valuchia
County. Hold a public workshop on parent access, mail hand mail handling integrity and records procedures. Request written policies from the school board. Okay, that's Thank you. >> Thank you, Dracowski. >> I was going to say good afternoon, but it's actually good evening now. So, good
evening, commissioners. My name is Michelle Ratowski and I'm from Port Orange. Um, I'm a mother. For over six months, I've been completely separated from my 14-year-old daughter. No calls, no visits, not even the sound of her voice. The separation began with an exparte order signed by a previous
Valuchia County judge, written and submitted by the guardian at Lightum, who claimed that my daughter would be both in physical and emotional danger if she wasn't immediately removed. This false statement resulted in sheriffs being sent to a public skating facility where my daughter was attending her
lessons with her peers and her coaches. Excuse me. In front of everyone, she was then taken away. 14 years old, humiliated and terrified without warning, without evidence, and without due process. Let me be clear. I have never been in jail. I've never been
charged with a crime. I have no criminal background. I've always been a hands-on mother, the PTA mom, the team mom, the cheer mom, the volunteer in the classroom, the kind of parent that every community depends on. And I also have 25 signed, notorized character reference
affidavits from people who personally know my daughter and I, each affirming that they've only ever seen loving, stable, and nurturing relationships between us. Yet, despite that, I've been erased from her life. Not because of evidence, but because a system allowed
one-sided decisions to stand with no oversight or accountability. This has shattered more than just our bond. It's affected our entire family. We've lost both of my parents, which are my daughter's grandparents, just months apart. June of 2024 and then most
recently February of 2025. Then only weeks later, April 16th, is when she was taken with no contact allowed at all. Our family has not been able to grieve together, to support one another, or even to comfort her through that loss. Her little cousins ask me, "Where is
she?" Every time they ask, "When is she coming back?" And I have no answer. In Florida, parents have constitutional rights to raise our children and to be heard before those rights are taken away. Under Florida statute 6113, all custody decisions must serve in the best
interest of the child. And that also includes maintaining a loving relationship with both parents. When those protections are ignored and when taxpayer funded professionals profit from conflict instead of reunification, the system itself becomes abusive. This is not just my tragedy. It's a public
issue. Your tax dollars are paying the salaries of these judges, the guardian edits, psychologists, and attorneys. While children like my daughter suffer the emotional consequences, we are asking this commission to take notice, to investigate how county funds are being spent, and to ensure that families
are being helped, not harmed. I'll never stop fighting for my daughter and for every child in Valuchia County who deserves to be reunited with a loving parent. Because right now, the people paid to protect are the ones destroying our families. And while they go home at 5:00, my daughter goes to bed each night
without her mother. Thank you. [Applause] Heather, is it Bent or Bendle? >> Bendle. >> Okay. >> These are my four children. My name is Heather Bendle. I am a mother of four, a certified public school teacher in our
state. Yet, I am blocked from even speaking to my children. On August 13, 2021, under fraudulent orders lacking any lawful jurisdiction, three of my four children were unlawfully transferred from Illinois to Florida by Illinois Circuit 19 despite me holding
sole legal custody at the time of the transfer. In 2023, my oldest daughter was then dragged down here against her will. Then came to find out I had the only legal custody of her. The transfers did not comply with UCCCJA rules. This was
not a lawful relocation. This was state enabled child trafficking under the color of law. Since arriving in Florida, the corruption has deepened. Judge Stasia Warren, in November 2024, you issued an illegal contempt order against me, punishing me for attempting to defend my
parental rights. You recused yourself after I exposed your conduct through a public records request. Judge Sandra Upurch, you denied my emergency motion for custody, citing unfamiliarity with Florida's emergency custody law 129.941D.
This isn't just negligence. This is willful ignorance of in the face of child endangerment. General Magistrate Alexander Alvarez, you ignored my sworn evidence of neglect and abuse. Evidence that includes Daytona police reports, school absences, and child disclosures.
You were put on notice. You did nothing. Child Support hearing officer Neil Kaufman, in June 2025 hearing, you silenced my testimony and refused to allow me to contest the validity of enforcement on a void foreign order under UFSA. Ellen Holtz representing Florida
Department of Revenue. You are now actively working to garnish my teachers wages for a support order that was never legally registered under UIFSA, all while ignoring my formal legal objections. And let us not forget Justin Sirlick, the father documented for abuse
in Illinois police reports, now holds my children hostage in Daytona Beach, where they have been consistently truining and academically failing with GPA near 1.0 in Valuchia County schools and is under investigation with by DCF. Despite all of this, I, a dedicated educator and
mother, is denied phone contact, visitation, or even updates about my children's well-being. I have no criminal record. I am a victim of judicial fraud and systemic bias. Stripped of my rights without due process. Punished for surviving, for
protecting, and for refusing to be silent. This court has failed. I have exhausted every channel, motions, appeals, emergency rits, including a writt prohibition, arguing the foreign order is void. Still, no one listens. To the seventh judicial circuit of Florida,
to judge Warren, Upchurch, Magistrate Alvarez, hearing officer Kaufman, and do council Alan Hol. I say we see you. This is fraud upon the court under the color of law. To the public, this is not an isolated tragedy. This is how children
are trafficked through the courtroom. My children are not lost. They are not they are stolen. I am demanding I be reunited with my children. We the people of Valuchia County demand an investigation into my case and every other parent that speaks today. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you're next. No. Oh, Dana. Uh, what's your last name is? That's what I was going to say. >> Thank you so much.
>> So, good evening, commissioners. I'm here to ask you to take a stand for survivors of domestic violence and demand accountability in our family courts. My name is Dana Hannesjack and I am the founder and executive director of Survivor Center, serving survivors of
domestic violence and family court abuse in Valuchia County. Just this spring, Valuchia County Sheriff Office recorded 94 new domestic violence incidents in a 4-week period. Nearly a 10% increase from the prior month. These are not just
numbers. They represent lives in danger and families seeking safety. At Survivor Center, we provide peer-to-peer advocacy and court accompanyment, walking survivors through the legal system so that they are not alone when facing their abusers. But our
work has revealed systemic problems in the family court system where survivors are often revictimized by the very process meant to protect them. While cases may be cleared by law enforcement, that only means that a report was closed
and an arrest was made, not that justice was served. Survivors are still fighting for safety and custody in courts for years. highlighting the urgent need for judicial accountability and checks and balances. We are calling for a formal
investigation into the family court practices and support for expanding advocacy services. Together we can ensure that the survivors in Valuchia County has access to safety, fairness, and hope. Let's make justice possible. As you know, it's
domestic violence awareness month. Let's stand with survivors and their children. Thank you. >> Karina Pilott. >> Good evening. My name is Karina Pilott. This case that I'm speaking on originated in Deltona.
I am here as a mother fighting for 5 years to reunite and bring my daughter Isabella home. What happened to Isabella was not child protection. It was wrongful seizure of a child. On May 27th, 2020, DCF ripped Isabella out of my arms for from our home in Deltona.
The removal was entirely unlawful. On July 28th, 2020, DCF filed a motion for reun reunification, which effectively acknowledged that Isabella should have never been removed. After re reunification, we temporarily relocated to New York due to emergent
family situations. Also, we were illegally evicted during COVID despite paying rent, adding to the trauma that my family had already endured. After going to New York approximately 5 years this week, my
daughter again was removed from New York. A woman that works for the Community Partnership for Children came to New York and took my daughter and brought her back to Florida. There was no ICPC process followed. No court
authorization existed. No judicial review occurred. No due process. Since that day, Isabella has been held unlawfully in Florida, separated from me for years. The impact on our whole family has been devastating. Isabella has a family that loves her deeply and
every day without her has caused immeasurable pain and trauma. My child needs her mother and it's imperative for her to know that I have never given up fighting for her. No how no matter how impossible the odds have seemed. The retaliation we have faced for speaking up about what she has endured is
absolutely reprehensible. What's even worse is that there are people out there, even some relatives, who have been made to believe that Isabelle isn't even my child. Imagine that. That's how far this system has gone to erase me, to erase our lives,
and to rewrite the truth of who we are as a family. It's the most twisted, heartbreaking thing we have ever experienced. What we what my family and I have endured is unimaginable. Imagine sitting in a courtroom watching a judge terrorize your child in front of you
while you're fighting for her every single day, powerless to protect her from those who were supposed to uphold the law. The actions taken against Isabella and our family were illegal, abusive, and a violation of our human rights. I am here to request that this
council recognize the these serious concerns and support a full investigation into the role of local and private agencies including community partnership for children children and the helping handing. I urge this council the audience here today and those of you who are watching
online to please acknowledge this wrongful seizure and kidnapping of my daughter Isabella and support an independent review and investigation of all parties involved. My goal is simple. I need to bring my child home and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen and to bring awareness to
these injustices. >> Thank you. Support accountability and prevent for this from happening to any other family in our community. [Applause] >> Jessica Saxton. >> My name is Jessica Saxon. I'm a civil rights advocate and litigator from
Washington DC. I am here to provide notice. This is accordance with USCS rules of civil procedure as well as rule 17 and rule 20 from the United States Supreme Court. As Mr. Downing was talking about earlier regarding the indictment by information issue, we have a very similar issue going on in family
court and in juvenile court. And the problem still remains that you are paying these judges to deprive parents of rights that are secured and protected by the constitution. It is an emolement violation. It is illegal and it is a crime.
I have today a lot of affidavit and when I leave here today each of you will officially have been served with these affidavit of criminal conspiracy against judges that you are paying. Now, federal code
18 USC4 that is miss prison of felony. And what that states is that whoever now having knowledge of the crimes that are cognisible by any court of the United States and does not as soon as possible report these crimes to a civil or military authority could be held liable.
So, I am here to provide notice. I will be filling out a service of process for each one of you in regards to every single one of these affidavit of criminal conspiracy. This is primaasy evidence of crimes that have been committed by the judiciary that you are paying in this county for unlawfully
removing children from parents who have spoken here tonight on your record in this court of public opinion. So I implore you to please discharge the duties of your office because every single one of you also swore an oath to support and defend the constitution. And you think it's funny, sir. Do you think
this is funny? Cuz I don't. >> It's disgusting. First of all, I don't know what you're saying because I wasn't laughing. I was just >> Because you don't care. Because you don't care. How do you know that? >> Because you literally just told me that. Because you literally just told me that you don't know what I'm saying. >> Ma'am, you need to direct your comments
to the council. >> I've directed everything that I need to say at this point. You will be held liable if these are not reported. This is not my laws. These are our laws. I didn't create these laws. Durlex said likes the hall is law. The
the law is hard, but it is the law. And every single one of you know that there are incentives right here from this county and in this state that incentivize these these judges to act criminally against against these families. It's called title four. Title
4 B, Title 4 D, Title 4 E. Every time a judge removes a child unlawfully from a fit loving parent, healthy parent, the state is incentivized through those Title 4 payments. I'm sure somewhere around here if we did an
audit, we would find a budget. We may be able to uncover some more criminal uh criminal actions. So, I am dropping service. Where would you like for me to to to hand this? >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you.
[Applause] Okay. I don't see the next person. Katherine Pante. >> She's she with Grace. >> Oh, she she spoke for somebody else. Chairman, might it might it be
beneficial to let these people know we may comment? >> I Yeah, I I was actually going to ask if we could have a five minute recess and talk to the county attorneys in the back room. Yeah, the folk you might want these
folks to stay if we have some comments. I don't want them to leave and miss out. >> Okay. >> All right. Thanks. >> Okay. Council. >> Okay. >> I I don't know what we're going to talk
about because I I don't know anything about this. So, I'm not prepared to speak about anything. I'm going to ask some questions. That's all. >> Me, too. >> I'm not prepared to talk about it. That's why I wanted to ask the council. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if they were aware this was
coming. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Mr. Chairman, I got a suggestion. I I suggest we maintain the the decorum and the rules governing our meeting and continue as normally scheduled.
I concur. We can talk about it in in council comments in closing comments. >> Okay. Tracy Paratt. Hello, my name is Tracy Perero. I um am a me I live in Dand so I'm part of Dawn's region. Um this is my first
county council meeting that I've spoken at. Uh it's been enlightening. We've learned of some extracurricular activities. We've learned of a lot of different things, but I've come to speak on the arts budget that was removed. Um thank you chair Brower and the members
of Alicia County Council. I help run Artworks Still End. It's a small co-op gallery down the road from Athens Theater. Today, I'm here as a community member to discuss the funding that was pulled from the local arts organization. Let's start with numbers. This year, you decided to withhold more than 611,000 in
community cultural grants that support over 30 arts and culture organizations in Valuchia County. The Athens Theater was supposed to, of course, receive 31,000 of that. That's less than the cost of repaving a small parking lot. Um, but the it would fund musician set
building materials and sign language interpreters. Meanwhile, your budget weighing in at 1.3 billion finds room for all sorts of extra options. And of course, we've talked about that tonight. The motocross recreation facility. Uh, I'm sure somewhere out here, someone out there probably loves motocross. That's
great. But it's hard to tell struggling art venues that we simply don't have the money when the county is busy digging dirt tracks for bikes. Now, let's talk about how the money is being managed. The counties projected 7.1 million in revenue from paid beach parking, but the
actual number came in closer to about 2.9 million. Uh, that's not a rounding error. That's a did you do that math on a napkin moment. And if any small business actually ran their numbers the way that that was run, we'd be laughed out of the bank. Yet somehow in county
budgeting, that level of optimism seems to pass as forecasting. So when I hear we have to make tough decisions, I'd like to know know tough for who. The arts are being asked to tighten their belts while discretionary projects are and unrealistic projections keep sailing
through. Let's also not pretend the reason this funding was pulled was purely fiscal responsibility. The public comments, the news stories, the votes, they all point to discomfort around LGBTQI inclusive or drag related art. You can call it what you want, but
to many of us it reads like selective morality disguised as bookkeeping. That's not f financial stewardship. That's censorship by spreadsheet. I support good management. I support accountability. But good management doesn't mean taking aim at the easiest
targets. And accountability doesn't mean punishing artists because you don't like every performance that happens in your county. So here's my ask. Reinstate the money to cultural grants. Stop pretending it's money when the numbers, the spending elsewhere tells a different
story. Show us that this county values creativity, connection, and fairness over obvious fear. We claim we're the Athens of the South. I ask you, do we still deserve that title? Are we content to be the county that traded culture for
carburetors? Thank you. Ellen Wittermouth. Ellen is not here. Randy Williams. Melissa Berghoist. Melissa. >> Yes. >> Thank you.
I'm going to introduce myself at every uh county council meeting that I come to. My name is Melissa Borgcourse. Okay. and um I live in district 1 and I'm here as a member of the Northwest Democratic
Club and I will be observing and then essentially reporting to my uh group about the activities that happen here. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh Jennifer Culage,
you'll be followed by Sydney Johnson. And Sydney will be followed by Fred. >> We'll get to him in a minute. Jennifer Culage. >> Thank you. And I want to start out by saying thank you for those that have called me back. Danny, thanks for
calling me. I I I like to continue the dialogue. We want to continue the dialogue, Jake and uh Matt too for your support and looking forward to the potential of more conversation around the importance of culture in in our county. Um, I would stress that uh,
culture is a core civic responsibility and I think if we went back and looked at the letter that 19 councilmen, former councilmen uh, spoke in and and sent to you, um, they stressed that point and you as stewards of of our community um,
our well-being and identity and working hard in very many areas. I mean, your job is tremendous. It it is tremendous but we are part of that cultural identity and part of um the public good in the service that you can provide. Um just as your parks, libraries,
education, they all enrich um civic life. This is not charity. I am a professional in the cultural industries in in our area and and this is a good investment that um brings um ROI back in in in unmeasurable ways and measurable
too because we keep sharing the data about the money that comes back to our county when you invest in culture. Um the IRI ROI of a public private partnership that has worked in this comm in this county for third over 36 years.
Um um Mr. Kent talked about the contributions of Tip and Davidson for culture in our area, but that did not come at just his investment. It was a partnership with this county that would enabled us to bring the London Symphony
to this community, Seaside Music and others. And he was a part of establishing the cultural funding along with our founder from Atlantic Center for the Arts, um Doris Leaper. So I I implore you to to to think further and think about um the value but that arts
and culture brings and also to consider that we've gone through a process. Um we've spent time I've I've hired a grants writer. I'm not alone as a an arts leader that spends money preparing these grants to present our best product. And then your cultural council
vets the vets it for high artistic quality and for public impact with the money we spend for our um audits. So you know that our our proposals are fiscally uh sound. I I wanted to say that many of
us are working at um uh incomebased models um and you'll have this um invitation to join us for our ACI ACA live concert um this Saturday. Um, we're starting a new series and Don, I know I'm in your district, you know how hard it is to build a business model with
entertainment. Um, that's what we're trying to do at Center for the Arts. Um, and and you all had a plan for a threeyear uh shift in how these grants would be be working so that that nonprofits can figure out other ways forward. Um, we want to work with you to find a way forward for the arts in our county.
Thank you so much, >> Sydney Johnson. Sydney not here. Uh Fred, is it >> Coulter? >> Yes, >> that's the one. >> That's obvious that you don't watch Daytona Beach meetings, which probably
good move. Fred Coulter, 820 North, Tuxedo Dand, Florida, right down the street. I also came here because of your of your actions last meeting with the arts funding, but it isn't the direction against the arts funding I'm here for.
Half of you when voting against funding it said that we need the money in our roads and sidewalks. And this shows a fundamental flaw with budgeting here in the county that's also everywhere else that I've seen in government. I have tw over 20 years of governmental budgeting
experience both in Daytona and other places. And the biggest problem that we have as budget officers, by the way, I wanted to mention that I've heard nothing but good things about your budget staff. So this is not a hit on your staff is that the elected officials
do not adequately communicate their priorities to the budget staff when developing the budget. That's why this year's budget looks a lot like last year's budget because they don't know what you like. And to do this properly, you need to do a deep dive on what the
county does. Everything it does. Look at every single program determines priorities. Look at it's nice to think about the new ones. And most strategic plans, and I haven't looked at yours in detail, but normally they just look at here's the new stuff we want to do. You need to look at everything because the
reality is you don't have more resources. You're going to have to cut something to do one of the new things. There may be things that you think we need to do that's higher priority, but it's going to require cutting something else. And the budget staff has no clue. They don't know what you think is lower
priority than this new program. the county manager is going to be looking at waste and inefficiency. When I've seen public hearings, I've seen commissioners digging into the details of the budget. We had a budget with public works where the county council, not you, a different county council,
spent an hour discussing whether or not they needed two or three toner cartridges. You're talking about every commissioner, 10 people on the budget staff, city manager, public works spending an hour discussing a $200 item on the budget.
that is not the role. You need to say we need to stop doing this then the city the county manager can do that. We need to start doing this and then he can look at your priorities and if some are going to have to be cut to make others happen he will bring that to you but you need
to communicate your priorities with the budget. There's a way of doing this the whole strategic plan. This does not require a a consultant. So we're not talking money unless you're horrible at hiring people. You have people on your staff who have the training to
facilitate it, but it's going to require you, your heavy involvement in the entire process, not just the beginning when you do vision statements and that stuff. You're going to have to go and listen to what they're talking about, determine what those priorities are, go back when they come up with plans, you're going to sit there and look at
those plans and say, "That's not going to work." And this is would probably my guess would be at least a year at least once weekend a month a whole day of you working on a workshop to build this >> and that's a lot of work for you which is probably why it's not going to happen.
>> Sandra Cook interesting way to ask. >> Good evening. Uh my name is Sandy Cook. I'm the executive director and co-founder of Halifax Reparatory Theater, which is a 501c3 nonprofit that's in Orman Beach. Um, I have a
whole lot of stuff written down here that you've all already heard time and time and time and time and time over again. So, I'm going to tell you something that's not down here on the paper. Um, my husband and I started Halifax Reparatory Theater a few years ago. We use that HRT for heart. We feel
like arts are the heart of the community. Um, we put up productions, we rent the theaters, we personally put in a quarter of a million dollars a year of our own money in order to make our dreams come true and bring outstanding
productions and education for the arts to our community. Um, we have every intention of continuing to do that. We don't we don't ask or get this grant. Um but the devastation that it causes by this grant being taken away um just kind
of shows that it's it's a trust thing. It's a trust thing that you know the entire community needs the arts. Everyone has spoken about it. Everyone has said why they should be revitalized. The amount that is put out and put forth
through these grants is so minimal in comparison to the cost of what it actually takes to put these things together and to continue to have it grow. And it does bring in more people. I can tell you right now, people like my husband and I, we lived in Orlando for 20 years. We grew up in Daytona. We were
here for the seaside days. And we want to bring that that fabulousness back. That was our goal when we started this. Um, stuff like this being stripped away by the county, in my opinion, is going to make people like us that return to Orund or return to Valuchia County to
try to help revitalize it and get it back to the glory days that it used to be for arts here, it's going to make us want to move out of the county. And that's a shame because it's a fantastic place to live. We're trying to grow something outstanding for our community.
and we hope that you will reconsider reinstating that $611,000 grant for those organizations that desperately need that help. Thank you. Thank you. Uh Jade Sujavanich Jade such a wage.
>> That's what I said. speaking for my family in District 1. Um, hello county council and officials. Um, it's been a year. I was a little late on sending in the picture, so I kind of
printed out one. Just a reminder of the flooding. I think I'm the only speaker who speaking of the flooding. It's been a year and 10 days. Um, in the picture, I actually wasn't here when it was this
high and there was water over the road, which is an infrastructure problem. Um, thankfully, hurricane season this year has been quiet. Um, and attending the county council meetings and then various town halls,
I've learned about how how the county prioritizes uh infrastructure projects. Like for example, about I think 5,000 ft away, there's the Taylor Road project where
water was over the road for about I think 10 days. And I think that's been on the radar of the county for a couple of years. So that's already in progress. There's been studies. But for properties which are which don't
flood as often or they've flooded for the first time, I know it's a slower process. So I just wanted the council to keep us in mind. Um we never know when the next hurricane is coming. There's I think 40 days left in the hurricane
season. We're hoping, knock on wood, hopefully this is wood. Um, that nothing else happens this year. Um, yeah, I've been I've been researching how funds are allocated.
Like I saw the the slide about the different funding sources, sales tax and everything. And I think one of them is CDBGDR, which is community development block grant disaster recovery. So I
guess I need to email um public public works and then try to figure out like what the process is on that. Like I've heard that perhaps there has to be multiple floods or something before that application process can move
forward. Um, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can to help them help help out my family. If anybody's listening, then they can also hopefully learn from it as well. Um, that's all I have. Oh, I I am disappointed that um funding was cut for
the arts. That's all. Thank you, Jade. Michelle I know you guys love it when I come up here and speak. I bless you every month. But I'm going to talk to you again about the issues that I'm having. We talk about crimes. There's been a crime and
actually I'm dying from it from the Fiser vaccine. But nobody wants to talk about it. um censored by news media, newspapers, my government, everyone, including the hospital that I worked at in my own county that terminated me
because they didn't believe that vaccine injuries happen. And it is vaccine injury awareness week. If you want to know how my life is when you're running, doing CrossFit, martial arts, and you end up being on $15,000 medicine, which
I'm going to sit here because I have tried to make my point every week. In here is tubes that I have to load up in here every week for three hours. There's
tubing, everything in here. This gets locked in here. I have to put my medications inside of here. I was healthy on vitamins. You want to see something? Here. I know the camera can't see all of that.
Do you see how many medications I take? And that's without supplements. That's what I have to do around the co clock to stay alive. Not only that, have to go overseas to be treated and get treatment because there is no treatment for me. I'm I still am
producing spike, which you're not supposed to after 1740 days. It's in my exoomes. There is no cure for me and it's pushed me into cancer. So, I'm se I'm without this medication, I can't walk. My immune
system attacks itself. The only thing I can continue doing is speaking out to save future generations. But the problem is nobody's saving me. Out of all the money that Dantis, which I was on his round table, I'm being ignored by him. So he's a coward by not speaking to me.
I just saw Latapo a few weeks ago. I'm tired of my life not meaning anything. Talk about crimes. anyone that realizes that a crime has been committed and I'm I'm dying because of a safe and effective vaccine that was supposed to
be safe that's not that's killing me. Everybody knows what's going on and nobody is doing anything for me. I've lost my house and everything else. Jeff, you've helped me a lot. A lot of you have contacted me once, that's it. Nothing else. Nobody else has helped me.
If it wasn't for um Corey Mills helping my disability and a few other things, very few people, but nobody wants to say she's dying. She's lost everything. No savings, no nothing. But I have to live on medications just to come here so I can aggravate all of you because I need
it to be heard. And I'm sure that they're not going to put me on nothing because nobody wants to hear me. Michelle, thank you. Um, Lloyd, you're next. And then Jennifer Morano.
And then Kathy Thompson. And we have, I think, eight people want to speak that we're going to try and cram into this last public participation time. Sorry I'm taking so long. I'm done. >> It's okay.
>> This is my life. I hope you guys like it. >> Lloyd Bowens. >> Thank you, Chairman Brower. Um, there have been many issues discussed tonight. I now need to bring you back to the decision you made regarding cultural funding. Uh, I was present at the last
meeting and spoke at the last meeting. My name is Lloyd Bowers, by the I know you all know me and I'm from the beachside Daytona Beach and but I also have the pleasure of serving as uh Councilman Reinhardt's uh member of the cultural council, a position I've held since 2012 and I also have the pleasure
of this year being the recipient of the Tiffen Davidson award uh which was a great honor by the Blush County Cultural Alliance and uh Councilman uh Kent in the last meeting you uh paid tribute to Mark and and uh Julia Davidson and
Trurillo and the contributions that uh Tippen had made to this community. But you failed to mention the cultural grant program that was started by uh Tippen, Gary Libby, and Frank Bruno in 1989 and has been a part of the county's funding
since 1989 and is now an integral part of our cultural arts organizations in this county. Three of you mentioned that you didn't want to pull the rug out from under these organizations, but that's exactly what you did because none of us know uh where we are now, including
myself as a member of the cultural council. Do we still have a cultural council? What do we do? We do license plates. We do art and public places, but what else do we do, if anything? And I referenced that February 18th, we had finished your work from last year at
this year's February 18th meeting and provided you with the program that you requested us to bring back to you uh for cultural funding, totally revamping it and also spending the dollars down for you over the time over the next three years. And based on that, the cultural
council contributed their time. the arts agencies did their time as well in submitting those grants, reviewing those grants, grading those grants, and then bringing you the recommendations here. I felt that that would be an easy ask at this point because we did what you asked us to do, but you did not do that. And
in fact, I'm quite not sure, not quite sure exactly what you did decide, but I did want to bring your attention to the comprehensive plan because it seems to me that if you're going to do away with arts funding and the comprehensive plan has to be a part of it. Why come I'm sorry. Mike and I have known each other
for a long time. Mr. D, if I quote this incorrectly, please let me know. But the comprehensive plan chapter 18 is the cultural element which forms the foundation of the county's planning. And interestingly enough, got to get through this quick. Uh 8.1, the goal, enrich the
quality of life for Valuchia citizens by increasing awareness of cultural opportunities in Valuchia County and support those agencies that provide said opportunities. uh policies 18.1.2.1. The county shall recognize and support the cornerstones of Luchia cultural
life. You mentioned Moaz, Museum of Arts Sciences, the Art Atlantic Center for the Arts, Museum of Art, demand the land, and the major cultural facility for Southeast Valuchia. I would ask you to please continue that and don't forget the objective in 18.1.5. The county shall maintain the viability of cultural
facilities by assisting the relevant organizations through an annual county budget appropriation dispersed as competitive grants to local cultural funds. Please honor the comprehensive plan. At least approve those this year. Thank you. >> Jennifer Morano,
>> Kathy Thompson, Stephanie Mason Teague. >> Good evening. Jennifer Morano, executive director of the Hub on Canal. You have heard all the facts. We've tried to convince you, but I the frustration comes from we followed
your rules. You were we had three years and instead of receiving any funds for all the work that we did, all the manh hours that I took out of my day to go to workshops and to work to re doo this grant, the other kinds of information
that I needed from my education director. So, we put her time in there. And then since we had such a short window, we had to hire a grant writer. So, we're in we're in the red at this point. It cost us money. But I do want to just tell you because everybody else
has been wonderful just what the hub is cutting and also what Art House is cutting. Um, oh, and I also do want to make a quick note that there's a video circulating with all sorts of hub content that we have nothing to do with. So, just so you know, that's viral. It's
kind of going all over the place and it is on all our information that it is not the hub's not responsible for that. Um, so we are there will be no Thanksgiving and holiday camp scholarships. We're cutting right now 65% of our summer camp
scholarships. We canled our Teen Clay outreach initiative. We're scaling back our hub on the run by 50% and that's a program that supports at risk you use out at risk youth esseer underserved adolescence of East
Valuchia. I am now looking we currently are open seven days a week. I'm looking to drop that to 5 days a week. We have got to just shut down the operations a little bit. Art House is losing 217 youth scholarships. They're down under Mural Series on Dunlton Bridge is in
jeopardy. They will have reduced youth classes and also staff layoffs and I did staff layoffs before all this started. So, I'm already working on a skeleton crew. So, I'm just asking you to reconsider. Give us some time to make the changes we need to make. Um, you
know, I I've been doing this for six months, like trying to make changes, and it doesn't happen overnight. So, I would appreciate the consideration of putting that grant back on. Thank you. >> Thank you, Kathy Thompson. >> Kathy Thompson, Orman Beach, but I'm
speaking for Daytona Playhouse in Daytona Beach. I left the last meeting um early, but I left with hope and optimism that reason would prevail and that you would honor your stated commitment to the arts and cultural organizations that inspired so many of
us to move to Valuchia County and to remain here. I guess that was misplaced faith in you. We are not charities and I'm tired of hearing you say that to us. We are notfor-profit businesses and we have
been in a partnership with this county for 30ome years. We carry the majority of our expenses. We carry the majority and all of the expense for our facilities. You offer us some dollars that that allows us to expand our
programming and most importantly to ensure that we can economically serve the challenged in our community, our seniors and our children. In good faith, we listened to you. We did everything you asked of us.
We developed a three-year plan that you said yes to and then you denied it all. Honor your commitment. Restore the grant in its entirety. And I would add include
the Sands Theater and Shoestring. They they had no right to be bullied out doing nothing more than following the non-discrimination policy all of us are required to follow in Valuchia. Stephanie Mason Teague.
Okay. Uh Lisa Nail null Keith Chester. So if you were one of those deceived into voting for Ekko, as most were, or you were one of those involved in the deception, you shouldn't be complaining now about how Echo funds are being spent
on a motocross facility. And I should say, if you didn't squeal about the mile after mile of woodlands that were chopped down and bulldozed over so recreational trails could be constructed out of petroleum based asphalt material, you shouldn't be complaining now about the environmental impacts from a motocross facility that
will be constructed out of mostly natural materials and on property that has already been heavily disturbed. And if you are one of those who are here in support of the cultural funding, I will remind you that the taxpayers have already been forced to spend many millions of dollars on cultural
facilities through ECHKO. So end the hypocrisy and move on. I should also note unlike the Echo program, the cultural grant program was not approved by the voters. It was another one of those spending programs that politicians added to gain favor from a special
group. And once government programs are started, they almost never end. The cultural funding program is another program that wastes money on non-core governmental responsibilities. No matter how some will attempt to spin it, it needs to end and the funds need to be
reallocated. I have a friend who with his two sons owns a small business that is operated out of a 3600 ft barn that is located on a small lot that is well off any main road in a relatively rural area. Their combined property taxes for the homes
they built for themselves using sweat equity and their business location is $44,270 a year. I repeat, $44,270 a year. On the other hand, there are many who pay little if any property taxes at all. So, when people start
tossing about that fuzzy math, saying this program or that program only costs this or that small amount per household on average, it is a disingenuous way to deflect the truth. Because the truth is about half of the taxpayers pick up the burdens of the other half and our younger hard-working people who are just
starting out are being hit the hardest with high property taxes. council. When someone quotes some study that says the return on investments for the government providing taxpayer handouts to this or that cause, please consider what the return on investments would be into having better designed, built, and
maintained roads, sidewalks, and infrastructure for everyone to include veterans, single moms, minorities, marginalized groups, and poor children trying to get to school safely. Everyone benefits when governments do their core governmental responsibilities
well. Quote from Mr. Vic Baker. Separate needs from wants. Address the needs. Let the private sector address the wants. Government should not be confused with charity.
>> Thank you, John Nicholson. We have two more speakers. Uh we're be we'll be a little more than out of time for this segment of public input. But John and then Troy Milwater
>> with regard to the Atlanta. Um I had personal knowledge of that. I used to go every morning or every Sunday morning to uh IHOP and one of the women there went through that and what she went through Bat you would not believe. So please listen to those people.
Uh secondly, with the arts, I had hoped you by this time you would have had somebody on the opposing side reconsider and I'm hoping that during your individual comments that that would happen. Um because you really never from
what I have been and I come to several meetings the core uh issues what what's the core uh purpose of of the government what is what is the core so I know Dempsey got
this often his $3 million for his son's motocross and that Troy got $40 million for his uh family so they don't have to go to uh St. Augustine. Well, yeah, that's true, but it they're not. But
when Don says this, he's talking about all of our children that go into motor motocross. When Kent wanted the $40 million, he wanted the maximum use of a facility that we already had. So, uh what is the core area? And these people
have an issue. I have an issue. I don't know what your core area is. It seemed like logical that if we have baseball fields and we have ballet classes, they're equal. One is intellectual, one is physical, but they're equal. So, um I
would ask that we discuss the core before we cut all of this stuff out. Third, uh the city got sued again. We got sued last year on our redistricting. We got sued again. So, I'm get I'm asking you guys to pay attention to the
city of Daytona Beach. It is valuable to the whole community. Uh they just had Btoberfest which was a very good event but everybody benefits from it. So please I'm asking you in the CRA that for 30 years they had a county
councilman on that board. I'm asking you to put somebody back in on the board. And lastly, doesn't anybody know a Republican? For God's sake, somebody's got to know a Republican somewhere. and what's happening in Daytona Beach and a
Democratic representative come came here uh last week and I asked her, "Are you aware of the corruption on our count our city commission?" She said, "Oh, yeah, but anything that'll give us a Democrat." Well, no. I don't like that philosophy.
If there's something wrong, I would rather you fix it. So, if anybody knows a Republican, ask them to contact their uh board to look at Doge and look at our figures, our numbers because they're playing games. Thank you,
>> Troy. You're the last speaker. Troy Milwater from Orange City. >> Hi. Uh my name is Troy. I'm originally from Dand. Um lived in the whole in the area my entire life. if I originally
wasn't going to come out. I didn't know that these meetings even happened. I don't necessarily get involved in the community very often and I feel like that's probably one of the reasons why so many things get overlooked by the community. Um it seems like there were two topics that really dominated this meeting. Uh one of them being there is
apparently a kidnapping issue uh for the courts. Um, as someone who grew up unfortunately going through the judicial system, I would recommend that if there is anything within your power to keep kids out of that system to do it. Uh, there's never a time where it's better
that they're not with their family. All right. Um, and then as far as the arts go, the only comment that I have to make on that particular topic would be it seems like the entire focus has been on the cost of this of this funding.
$600,000 is a lot of money. No one's going to dispute that. But if it cost you $8 million for a mile of road, I feel like maybe we should look at perspective a little bit and think that if that $600,000 can provide so much enjoyment to this community, so many
people that came out to speak on it, that perhaps that's a worth another look at, whether or not that funding will have a larger impact there than it would have on that less than 1500 feet of road. Thank you. >> Thank you.
And that ends public participation. We will go to uh uh closing comments by the county manager. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair and councel. Uh one thing I need to share is uh
kind of a good news uh but not always good news, but we got uh we fully committed all of our $2.2 $2 million provided by the D to upgrade to septic systems in the Deion Springs area. Uh so we're able to help 163 homeowners uh and
upgrading their systems. Uh some homeowners are still completing the construction and a rebate will be issued to their contractor once the work is finished. So this program provided rebates of up to $14,000. If you recall, we went to BAT to get that uh raised up
to directly licensed and approved county contractors. Uh we're going to explore future funding opportunities through the FD competitive grant program in 2026, but for now uh that program is fully committed and uh
over with. So just needed to announce that today. >> Question regarding that, Mr. Chair? >> Sure. >> Hey, George. Um what what was the um can you help me identify to the council and members of the public why was it just the Gemini springs because you know we have blue
>> it was the dillion springs >> it was special to that uh particular watershed my understanding is there'll be more that will come in the various other spring sheds when they're uh various times as they come up and I know
blue springs is really a the big one that'll be coming in the future so Yeah, I mean because um I mean constituent uh in in my district that is in the Blue Springs BAP, right? That's what it's called. >> And she has to replace hers from what I
understand. I don't know the particulars, but she communicated that, you know, she had a $24,000 >> bill to replace that. I mean, in that case, some people say, "Hooked me up to sewer, right?" Remember back in the days, it was like sewer is too much to connect to for at six or 8,000, whatever it might be. But
>> well that is that is actually uh you know we're working on studies you mentioned Gemini uh we we are partnering with the city of Deerry uh to have a uh septic to sewer conversion in the area around uh Gemini Springs and just what
you're saying I mean the connection now is competitive with some of the uh you know what you have to do to have a septic system in some of those areas >> is there is Is Valuchia County unique in this type of program or are we how are
we affected the other 66 counties? We you think we >> Well, in this case uh and Suzanne, you want to jump in? But in this case, we're affected because we have those springs which are uh important and seen as a as a very important natural resource. So
therefore uh you know we have B maps in and around to protect those springs. What what I'm what I'm trying to get to is possibly and maybe you all can look into this is is if if Aluchia County is subjected to these requirements
um more so than say the average county, could we make a case to the legislature for a direct allocation for Valuchia County because of our circumstances requesting some some direct funding of matching dollars um for this BMAP issue?
Well, in a in a manner we have I think Ben might come around here and speak, but that's one of the reasons you've got uh we had huge grants given to us uh to expand the southwest and southeast uh sewer plants and we're able to put in
advanced treatment. And then the idea there is uh you know those are urban enough areas to have sewer connections and eliminate uh wherever they can uh eliminate septics and go onto that sewer. So we had to have the capacity uh
expanded in order to even do that. So that was step one in that process. So they have been big partners and have given us millions of dollars uh for those plans. >> Yes. Um exactly what Mr. Director and Walt said I will note that um
specifically for DeLon Springs when they do uh the feasibility analysis uh specifically for spring shed BMAPs they're looking at what's causing the loading. So Deleon Springs was mostly a rural area and so um septic to sewer
conversion is a lot more difficult because there's not really service up there. We did participate with the state in funding a project that ran sewer service up the corridor to get the businesses and a couple of neighborhoods online. But the reason you saw those grants for the uh advanced treatment
units is anything acre or less is required to upgrade to that advanced treatment unit and most of your uh septic systems up there cannot be connected to sewer because there is no sewer service up there. Now in Blue Springs specifically as Mr. Rectenwald
said a lot more dense areas. Uh same with the Gemini Springs in the Deerry area. We've worked with the city as their utility provider to um identify uh areas where we can do septic to sewer conversion. That's where you're going to get more of your load reduction, places
like that. And then the Blue Springs BAP is not yet finalized. And when it does, you will see those requirements come in. And that's going to be a tremendous amount of load reduction that's going to be required of Deltona, Orange City, and the land and portions of the
unincorporated area. And it's going to be all those utility providers that have to work together. And we will be looking to the state for assistance in those septic to sewer conversions. But the people already held to that standard of that advanced treatment uh
correct me if I'm wrong that advanced treatment septic tank system right >> my understanding is in Gemini yes Leon yes I don't believe the BMAP for um unless that latest law that went into place that might be the case but my
understanding is typically they don't get held to that standard until the BMAP has been finalized which I don't think it has been for >> we'll we'll talk more behind the scenes just want to make sure we're Thank you. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Is that it? Uh, County Attorney,
>> um, just briefly, I know I've been, uh, updating you, but, uh, bills are now being beginning to be filed, Florida legislature already uh, for the session that begins in January. So, as we get more information, we'll continue our
updates uh to you and um session starts a little early this year. >> Okay, we will move to county council. And Don, you are first tonight. >> Yeah. Is uh is Brad here by any chance? He's not. Maybe I could ask this of
Mike. Um, is it possible that the cultural arts funding could come from Echko if we voted on it? >> Yeah, we've talked a little bit about that. The the dilemma that we have is the ballot language for the echo program
was directed for capital projects and the laundry list of uses. your cultural grant funding program at least the way it is now um is for uh covers operational expenses.
>> What would be the process if we wanted to tweak that so that the cultural arts funding could put in with echo funds and then they can compete against the other projects that routinely get funded every year for funding.
>> I'm I'm sorry. Could you repeat that last? >> Well, I mean it's I'm looking at the the ballot and uh it it shall Valuchia County continue to fund acquisition, restoration, construction, or improvement of environmental, cultural, historic, and
outdoor recreational projects for public use. I'm just wondering if there's any way to to fit the cultural arts funding. I'd like to get all this money out of general fund. I want to leave the general fund for true government purposes, but right echo includes
cultural arts. >> Well, it certainly does. It just um and you know I I think it's important to go back. Why was there a referendum on echo and forever? It was a bond referendum.
It val it authorized you to bond monies which generally are for capital expenses. Um, and it's being paid from your general fund because it provides that uh doesn't bind you to levy millillage. It
says up to 0.2 mills per program. So, um there is uh really that is the only reason why it went to referendum. Um if you want to set aside funding for a particular purpose, you're
free to do so through your budgetary process. you do not have to have a referendum for effect. >> So I guess the long and short the layman's answer is what we can or cannot tweak this to allow them to put into the echo pool of money.
>> I I think you have the authority now to exercise your budgetary authority over general fund to allocate money let's say I'm just hypothetically for a cultural purpose. You do not need a referendum for that. nor do you need to amend it
because a bond referendum is for using money uh for a capital purpose and authorizing you to secure that bond with your adorum taxing power that's what the voters approved um
so uh if you wanted to change echo to cover you know I I've I I use I know I use the term term operational. I heard Lloyd yell at me. Uh but what I mean is a non- capital purpose. Um
that uh that is not something you would go to referendum for. >> All right. No, I think it's important now that you've you know even echo and forever uh that comes out of your general fund
that's part of your adorum >> was voted on by the it was >> by 72% of the people. So that one them putting in against this $1.5 million a year we've been spending for basically a generation on paved roads through
environmental corridors. you know, how about we pull some of that money out and give it to these guys or pickle ball or motocross or whatever, but let them all come out of that pool because I think in my opinion, Echko
um contemplates what they're looking for. >> Well, Echo, I mean, certainly Ekko has a strong cultural component. No doubt about it. Just and how it's used. if if you wanted to get some kind of voter
uh approval for using your general fund for supporting operational purpose. Of course, everything you do has to have a valid public purpose. That goes for anything. But um you can have a straw poll, which uh state law does authorize you to
do. you have to pay for it to go up for an election, but you know, your budgetary power rests with the council and how you spend that money. Somebody had mentioned earlier that with Valuchia Forever, we had actually
made it operational, I think, is what Lloyd is what Lloyd said, that we kind of tweaked Valuchia Forever to make it include operational costs. Is is that doable with Echo? George, do you want to add to this as well?
>> Yeah. Well, I think to your last point, well, that was in the second iteration of forever. >> So, it went out and the voters voted voted and that language was was part of that. They made it clear more clear in the second iteration about the forever.
>> Yeah. It was for maintenance maintenance of the properties. So which is now to your first question you were talking about trying to make it sound a little easier without so you
for echo it's up to 02 ms right so in theory you could make it five mills and then that that 0.5 you have you know would go back kind of to the general fund and then you could use
if you wanted to for the art. So you you know that's how you would get there what you're trying to get to. That's outside of the of the echo, but you you would reduce the echo by that amount and then pay for it out of the out of the general fund. But it's all the general fund. You know, when you're throwing that around,
you know, it's 2 and 0.2 out of the general fund was dedicated so you guys could bond that money. That's that's why it went to the to the voters. Now, we've chosen not to bond echo uh because we've been able to cover it with the incoming
revenues. The forever you probably are going to see, we did bond a lot of it in the first iteration to the point where by the end I think the last many years uh was only paying off debt. Uh this time we we've done a very good job of
leveraging uh with grants and we haven't had to borrow money yet, but we probably will be coming to that. got some large purchases coming up that will probably require us to go borrow borrow the money. So, I hope that helps a little bit. But yeah, I mean you can the
flexibility is you'd reduce a little bit of the of the echo and then slide that money uh towards back to the general fund which then could be used for programs op you know whatever you guys decide.
So, >> and you saying the word maintenance was in on the referendum. >> Did you hear that, Mike? >> Well, I I >> No, I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I'll just wait and hear what my
colleagues might have to say on this or if it's not going to be disc Here's where I am, guys. I uh as you know, I've had that comedy club for six years. It loses money. I was packed every weekend. I still lost money. Did a lot for downtown. Every one of these
organizations does a lot for the community. They're wonderful. The Athens is wonderful. Shoring's wonderful. Um, but we inherited Sunrail and now the chickens have come home to roost and the county's got to foot the bill now. All
right. We got flooding that we've inherited because of purported de development over the last few gener decades, let's say. So, we've got a lot of other things to deal with. But it doesn't when it if 72% of the voters voted for Echo, which I was
against it. I didn't support it. But now that we have it, we gota we that's the will of the people. So they wanted 0.2 mill to go towards um echo which includes cultural arts. So I don't I don't have a problem reducing the
millillage if not this year next year but reducing the millillage for echo and carving out a little bit to keep this six maybe 11. It's I'm just open for the discussion. I don't know. I just I know that they do do a lot for the community. I agree with Mr. Chester and
everything that he says. It shouldn't come out of the general fund. Um I just know that these things are good for the community. I've run them. You lose money. Although the Athens makes money. They've shown a pretty good track record and that's awesome. But I don't
know if we should be subsidizing everything that's good for downtown. There's a lot of good restaurants downtown. That doesn't mean the government should be sending them checks every month. So, I don't know. I just um the ones who are truly losing money, um I'm not opposed to the echo portion
of our tax dollar being used to maybe help them out because that seems like that was the will of the voters with echo, but I would never want to take anything out of the general fund um for the arts because I don't think that's a government purpose. But as long as Echo's in place, I think it's fair
that maybe these people should have a shot of putting in for some of that money. So, I just don't know how we get there. But that's kind of where I am. I don't want it I I would rather have 611 go into roads and everything else and let their money come out of the echo
fund if possible. >> Okay. I just That's all. >> Thank you. Uh Jake, you had a question, but you're up next as well. >> Yeah, I think there's a couple options to pay outside the the general fund. Uh echo being one of them. Why don't we
just ask staff to bring back every option known to mankind that can fund it if you guys are interested. I was in the minority there so I I can't bring it back but I did mention last week or last last meeting that that I it's another I
want to get to yes. I was willing to make that happen. Uh um and I'm still willing to make it happen and if the 611 doesn't come back I'm still willing to make it happen outside the government. But but if if you guys are feeling a
little bit bit interested in getting back into it, but let's explore it and see how we can do it and make it happen. >> County Attorney Michael Dyer. >> Sure. And just to be clear, there is no prevailing side at this point. You did
you did not approve or disapprove grant requests last time. You are free as a council any one of you to speak or uh propose a particular course of action whatever it may be. >> Say that say that again. We did not
approve or disapprove >> a grant. You took no action in effect. So I know sometimes we get it's something that Mr. Johansson just said grabbed my attention. There's usually when somebody makes a motion to reconsider, you make it at the same
meeting and you say, "Well, I was on the prevailing side, so therefore I can uh make that motion, bring it up." There is no prevailing side here because you did not do anything. So, any of you could bring this issue up if you wanted to. You're not restricted.
Okay, >> Jake, you still have the floor of >> I I think we're still on Don's comment here, so >> I'll get into my stuff after we're done with this. >> All right. I thought with Don was done, but
>> Well, these are all comments on Don's subject of cultural arts. I I would just make a motion that staff comes back with giving us options. Um again, I don't want anything out of general fund. I I it's got to end with general fund, but
as long as we have echo in the C and Echo is cultural arts. If there's a way of working this we could put their applications in through the arts or the way George the county manager proposed is cut down on the millillage for echo
and go that I just don't want to see any tax increases and I don't even know where I sit on that but I just am trying to look for all the options. So that's my motion if you can get that. >> Okay. We have a a motion on the floor by Don to for the county staff to bring
back let me try and distill this down funding cultural arts outside of the general fund. >> I'll second it for discussion right now >> and the second was by uh David Santiago. Okay. Um >> Matt was ahead of
>> all these names still up for this now. Yes. Vice Chair Reinhardt. >> Thank you chair. Mike, thank you for clarifying that because I was under the impression that because we took a vote >> Yeah, I was too. >> That Jake and I could not because we're on the losing end of that particular
vote. I know I couldn't I could on mine because I asked to to go ahead and fund it. And I'm still based on that. I know it's not the popular decision by some, but uh again, not a fourth quarter ninth inning guy and I'm going to stand on that. >> Yeah, >> there are other you anyways I'm getting
into all that. Go ahead. It's all right. >> Yeah. No vote passed. So no vote passed. >> And and >> and I hesitate to go there, but I just want you to be clear. I mean, the whole the whole effect of a motion for reconsideration is to undo the vote you
took that meeting. You you are free as a counselor to bring up issues. >> Okay? >> So four meetings down the road, you decide to revisit a topic, you're free to do that. But you didn't have a vote that passed. So you had you have nothing to reconsider. >> We had a
>> a vote. >> We had a vote not to fund it. That was >> You had you had a It failed because of no second. >> No, no, I know it didn't. Mine failed without a second, but then Jake made a
motion. His motion was to go ahead and fund it minus those other two organizations, and we'll bring them back later. I seconded it. We took a vote and it failed four to two. >> That's right. Nothing passed. >> Okay. I'm just I'm still confused, but
Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. >> You're free to >> No, I got it now. >> It has to be in the same meeting. >> Same. Okay. I got Okay. >> It's not like you're banning yourselves for the future on a vote. So, >> thank you. That that just made it clear.
Thank you. All right. Sorry, Mike. Thank you. I understand. There is a motion in a second. I'm I'm And I'm in favor of that. you know, if it if it gets it back on the board, I'm absolutely in favor of that. So, I >> I'm done. >> Okay. Uh David Santiago.
>> Yeah, I seconded that motion because I'm I wanted to have discussion on on the direction for echo because I know there was some some explanation on echo, but I'm not yet convinced or been told that unless I missed it that echo allows us
for operational funding. It doesn't. So then why would we say go back and look at echo? >> I think what we were saying outside of the echo program >> outside of general fund >> outside of the echo program okay you
could reduce the echo millillage because it's up to 0.2. So say you figure out what $611,000 is and what that equivalent millage. So that might make it 0.1
59 or something like that. Okay. So you you just collect that amount on the echo and then the rest would come from the general fund. They're all in the general fund. Echo is in the general fund too. It's just you've set aside a piece of it. Uh >> well there's a mechanism to do
>> for bonding purposes is why you set it aside. >> So it sounds like there's a mechanis >> you could have an echo without without even doing that. understand >> just what you were talking about earlier about the roads. You could just just make a decision to decide and say, "Mr. Manager, I want a road program of X uh
amount of uh millage." >> So, if we supported that scenario, in essence, Echo would kind of sort of give back the 600 something thousand. >> Yeah. That's basically a way of of moving the money to
>> you're you're you're reducing what you're going to give for projects basically and then you would use the regular general fund millillage that you saved uh you could dedicate towards that. That would be a way of doing it. >> And you said still out of the general
fund. >> It is it it is the that's what it is. Where where is Ryan? He he'll beat he beat me into it to make sure I say that. >> Well, then then I have to change the uh the motion that I that I tried to repeat
and put on the uh table because I said the motion was to bring back cultural art funding outside of general fund. So really the motion is to bring back art funding >> through the reduction of echo >> through the reduction of echo.
>> May I say something? who who just asked if they could say something. Uh yes, Councilman Robbins. >> You know, and something to think about, guys, too. Um are we ready to pay for environmental um operational funds,
historical operational funds, and now now outdoor uh funds as well. you know, if we're going to go through echo, um I don't I think we're opening ourselves
up when it comes to instead of No, but but the operational the echo pays for facilities, right, Don? Okay. But you want to but but you got so what you're saying and I think what I'm trying to understand is you want Echo to
pay for operational um portions for for culture I guess and arts. Is that what you want? >> Somehow I understand that we ended up with uh Lucia forever being used for maintenance. I don't see it on the
ballot where it was necessarily included for maintenance. I don't see the word maintenance anywhere in here, but um I guess it's I don't know. But all I'm saying is I know cultural I I believe echo in the cultural arts
portion of it. I have no heartache in seeing some of that money go not just year after year after year to the same ones. But the ones that are struggling at least let them put in and make a bid for it >> because the voters because I'm against
it. Okay. But 72% of the voters are for their 0.2 2 million of their taxes going towards those four areas, including cultural arts. So, >> I don't have a problem seeing the money coming from that pool. I just don't like
it coming every year automatically from the general fund at 61. >> It's the same pool at the end of the day. >> Um, >> it is, but at least we're taking away from other cultural >> that's going to lead into watch the emails come in now. >> Um, yeah. So, uh, I I would like the
discussion of of what other options can be taken outside of government, outside of government that other counties are using or other arts communities are using in other counties
that are going out there and raising money. I saw a fundraiser going around this last week, week and a half. Uh I think you know on the Athens or or whatever and they raised 17 18 grand in like a week and a half, two weeks. So we
have another 50 weeks in the year. Compound that rate, you know, over the course of year, how much money are they going to? So is there other ways? And I think that was the um ultimate goal of the council to see how they can be more
self-supportive. But how do we how do we stick to core government need? You know, how do we get out of that? >> I think that was the intent of giving them three years to make that happen. Number one, number two, I'm sorry to butt in here, but we we pay
for environmental operational. any one of our parks or trails that we pay for. We pay for the operational. We pay for our parks. We pay for baseball. You you you give a echo grant to the city of Port Ors for new baseball
fields. The taxpayers are paying to hire the people to manage those baseball fields. Taxpayers are paying for the operational of the results of the capital that we use on Echko. Echo makes the building
and if as long as it's going to a government entity, which a lot of Echo does, the taxpayers are paying for the operational portion of that through general fund budgets. Maybe not ours, but somebody's. So, so if you think that
the echo funds is is not going or or or doesn't cost the taxpayers more money, it's it's part of doing business. And and and oh, by the way, we're trying to be fiscally conservative. I got that. But
but but we have to be good stewards of the government's money. And if the people want culture, then that's what they want. That's what we're here for, to represent them and what they want. I'm not saying, you
know, there's there's people out there that say there's 500 people complain about cultural arts and the other 5 10,000 people don't give a darn. That may be true. That's for us to try to figure out. Um, but but I I think
there's other opportunities, too. I'm I'm not going to mention the other funding opportunities, but I go back to the core, David. I think we need to have staff show us how to get there. And if we still want to do it, great. If we don't after that, let
me know. Um uh but but I am motivated as a citizen to help the alliance and all our cultural arts people uh uh get get 611 or more because I
I I like everything they do. Um uh and and I'd like to keep as much of it out of as much of everything out in government as I possibly can and that's why I'm going to work toward it. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh David Santiago.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this will be my public comment, my closing comments portion of of the day, too. So, I'll get that out of the way. And I think I'm last. Um but you know since since I returned from my vacation obviously this was a big topic for me and uh spoke with many people and just
contemplated on many positions that I've evolved over the years but I I I I start with one fundamental premise for me um is that last year uh I led the charge on the change of the program. Um, if you
recall, I was the front runner. You know, I I was critical of the program and at the end of the day, I made some suggestions on how do we change the program to work on a way to get the organizations uh independent and reduce
their funding year-over-year. Um and um I think we had like two or three hearings on that and because there was some there was a little bit of a stalemate on ideas and we finally adopted a program you know so philosophically from that
perspective for me you know I think it's wrong to have adopted a program just probably I think six eight months ago I don't remember what it was um and just um just walk away from it I that's not that's not what I would do so I'm just
speaking for myself So, I can't do that. That being said, I think there's an opportunity here though, also, Don, with your suggestion of uh the echo. Um, which I didn't know that was an opportunity. So, I'm glad I I drilled down on that question. I think for and
and I think there's a great opportunity. And Danny, I understand, you know, given all the fiscal issues that we've had a lot of pressure over the last, you know, 12 months or less. Um there's immense pressure on us on budgeting stuff coming from Tallahassee down. So um I don't
think there's any ill intent in anybody to, you know, how do we make these tough decisions because they're tough. No matter where we go on this, there's going to be a segment of the population that's not going to like one of us or all of us or half of us. Um so um I don't take that lightly, but I think there's an opportunity here maybe to
send this back to staff, Mr. Chair. um and for at least this year um send it back to staff for us to come back and approve it and withdraw those funds from Echko um in whatever legal ram way they they
can do it um and allow us to maintain the other the the the the 611,000 whatever math you got to do in our general fund but tap into there but I think it's worthy of a discussion as we go into next year's budget time. So,
this is really where we should be having this conversation, guys. Um, as we lead into next year's budget and we start seeing the numbers because we we technically approve this, but if we can dip into echo, I'm happy with that because we still keep the money and it comes out like echo like you said. But we really need to be having these
serious conversations on all um government uh u spending, right? Essential government services, as Mr. one of our speakers said, and have that serious conversation. Where's it going to land? But I'm not going to support pulling the program when I was kind of
sort of the champion of changing it. So I think we should find a way to fund them for this year through Echo and have staff bring that back for approval. I know I repeated myself a few times, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to make sure that that I'm clear. Um for this year, I think we should find a way to do it that
way. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Okay. Um yeah, I'll call on George in just a minute. I was just going to say the I'm trying to see if that fits into the motion that's on the the table.
>> Yeah. Um >> can I add one thing, Mr. Chair? We have the program, right, that that we created and well, we've already went through this project, but it should only be that program funded individuals that would tap into these funds. And maybe we need a new motion. I think I think legal is telling us we need a new motion if
there's >> Well, yeah. >> Yeah. Go ahead. The problem is this year >> that's that's you can't do it this year. >> You've already voted on and did the budget and the point 2 mills is already >> been voted on and gone to the echo
program. Like I say, you can't take it out of the echo program. The idea was you change the millillage, shrink the millage and and have a little bit less in an echo and then use that difference uh for the other. But you can't do that
uh now that you voted it. That'd be for the following year. This year you got to fund it. Well, you have to find some other way if there's, you know, well, we can look at some stuff, but um if you don't want it on the general fund, but you're you're very limited this year
because you've already voted on the on the budget. Next year is where we could play something. >> Okay. Let me let me ask you, David, um and the rest of the council,
your understanding is that we already had the program that um they had three years and then there was no more funding. My recollection of the program, it was three years of reduction in funding
because if you recall, I think there were individuals that were receiving somewhere upward close to 70,000 per year um and then it was kind of weaning them off of it um year by year. >> Yeah, it's been 611. >> Oh, I'm talking about per organization.
Correct. >> Individual grant. >> Correct. per organization because we wanted to also the idea at that time was if I remember was to promote new organizations to cut into the cultural arts program and not always have the same 10 or 15. That was the thought.
>> That didn't happen. Playhouse received $14,522 last year. This year the request is 30,743. So they didn't go down. >> That's a good point. I I but I know that was the program. I I I I
>> Okay. Yes, sir. >> Uh Tim Bailey. >> Yep. Tim Bailey, parks, recreation, and culture director. So, uh it might be helpful if I could remind uh the council what what was uh approved back in February 18th of this year. Right. So, um
what originally the maximum dollar amount that could be requested was $85,000. that was in previous grant cycles, right? So, what you proposed to do was to lower those uh funds from 85
to 70 in the year that we're in and then next year would be lowered to 50 and the year after that lowered to 35. That's for programming. the smaller grant agencies that had an operating budget of
40 grand or less, you uh gave them the opportunity to apply for up to $8,000 for operational funding, not programming. And that was for three years to get them started. And then after that point, they would fall out of
that $40,000 grant cycle and then be put into that programming uh cycle for grants. That's what what you all approved in in February of of this year. >> And Tim, because we don't have the presentation up, can you refresh council's memory from the last meeting?
Uh, so many organizations did apply for that 70,000, but what but I believe the maximum recommended grant was just over 31,000 because there wasn't enough money to go around. So actually the maximum award
was less than 32,000 for any individual organization. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Yeah. Let me follow up a little bit on that. So every year uh the grants are greater than what we have available which is 611 758 for a long period of time.
>> Uh the grants this year uh for programming for the 33 organizations uh their requested amount uh was uh $1.411 411 million. So knowing that we don't have 1.4,
we use their scoring and their 70 thou $70,000 aotment and do a weighted average to get them what they're eligible for. And that is what the cultural council recommends that we brought and that that's what we brought to you last last meeting. So yeah, they
might have requested $70,000 for programming, but the maximum dollar they received would be 31 and some change. Uh organizations that requested uh 35,000 would be getting somewhere close to half of that. So there's not enough funding
to go around per their request. So that's how you get to the dollar amount of 611758. >> And and the 61178 never changes. >> Okay. >> It hasn't for a long period of time. Okay. All right. Um, Councilman Robbins.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um, you know, I'll share a quick story. I was asked uh about a week and a half, two weeks ago, hey, Danny, what changed from when our budget time was till till that vote? And and I'll tell you, uh, we had about two
and a half, three weeks of of rain every day. And I got to compare where we were uh this time last year, the year before and the year prior to that uh based on this weather cycle that that we're going through. With that being said, nothing
has changed. Chair, we I forget how much we paid for it this council, but we bought property on the Florida shores if you remember. Uh a thousand plus there's a big big acreage down there, right? in hopes of of uh uh giving an area, you
know, additional area for volume and and certain things. We're doing some storm water projects. Uh but all up and down our 40 some odd miles of coastline and and even inland here towards St. John's, some of these problems still exist where we need this crit critical infrastructure. Um, and it's it's now
persisted where I can definitively say, you know, uh, you know, back a couple years now, it's not changing, right? So, uh, at the end of the day, I I I heard this I I heard this as well. Um, you
know, we have a couple options. Um, you have to paint your house or you have to replace a hole in your roof. What do you do first? probably fix the roof, right? But government will say, "Hey, we we want
both, but we're just going to uh tax it or move some shells around." You know, uh it's going to be unpopular for me to say that, but that's where I'm at because I I have some I have some storm water issues that that need to be addressed in in in roads. I have some
bridges uh that are scored that are literally costing my local businesses uh and residences not only time, fuel, maintenance, all that stuff, but it's costing some of these businesses a lot of money just in that one just in that one bridge. They have to travel miles out of the way even with a horse
trailer, dump truck, whatever the case is are our are our are our our middle class bluecollar folks. So, you know, um there's some real issues there. Uh and and that's it. You know, I'm not going to get into the rest of it, but that's that's where I'm at. It's priorities.
>> Uh, Councilman Dempsey. >> Yeah, I'm not looking to go back necessarily to where we were status quo either. I mean, I don't like the fact that we made this plan and then we kind of pulled the rug out. So this year gives me some heartburn. But you know looking at most of these applicants have
been coming year after year after year since 2014 for money. And I noticed looking at you know some of these 990s. I mean for instance the sans theaters report I mean they they went from 2.1
million in revenue in 22 to $2.4 million in 23. their wages went up from $657,000 to $841,000. So their their wages went up $170,000 in one year. Um they had zero money for
fundraising events, which is what Danny was talking about, not doing fundraising to raise your own money apparently from their 990 uh government grants 64,023. And so I I just having owned a comedy
club, which is technically a performing arts center, it loses money. Even I was perceived as successful. I lost money. I did it. I never thought to ask the government to give me money. I just did it because I thought it'd be good for the town. Got to meet a lot of people, had fun, but it lost money and I shut
the doors after six years. Some of these guys, it's their lifelong passion, and they're going to lose money. like the the land naval arts or the air station or whatever the the museum that's going to lose money. So my I I kind of my heart breaks for organizations like that
that they're not going to make money. The a sans theater they're making money. So them with their hands out you know and they're crying about 1% of a cut that really by looking at their books isn't going to make a hill of beans difference. They're not going to shut their doors over 1%.
that those organizations I don't think deserve um they're not in need of it. Let's just put it that way. They do a lot for the community though. But um these other organiza those are the ones that have been kind of on my mind recently. So I just want to explore ways
of of helping them out with but but coming out of Echo because the taxpayers 72% of the voters said we want money to go to these types of things and cultural arts is one of them. So that doesn't give me any heartburn. If if we didn't have echo, I'd be a no on this. Just
like if motocross was coming out of the general fund and we didn't have echo, I wouldn't even be asking for it. When I tried to do a motocross track 25 years ago, I was going to pay for it out of my own pocket. And I didn't even think to try and get it through government funding. But as long as there's a program echo, I'm all about if you want
pickle ball, I'm not in favor of pickle ball, but hey, they pay for it. We got over nearly $20 million putting an asphalt paved road, petroleum based road through the wildlife corridor that nobody seems to care about year after year, $1.5 million. Hey, it's out of
echo. So, this money coming to help the cultural arts that are truly uh in need of the money and don't just have their hand out. Um, I want to help. I'd like to see if we could help them and say yes like Jake says with uh but through the
72% of the voter approval funded echo either the way George proposed it or some other fashion. Thanks. >> You're welcome. I think I I the problem is that's not what we're being asked to do. We are funding
um Athens. We are funding people that are asking for more money each year. And I'm not sure if I don't think I can support reducing echo after 72% of the
population voted for for that um without asking them. So yes, Mr. David Santiago. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hey, um, Don, do do you think you could get there
with the today with the funding that's already been approved with the exception of the two entities that you said that you don't think should receive funding? >> I think Shoring was only asking Well, no, I wasn't pick shoing I think made a profit last year, too.
>> Yeah. Let me just be clear and staff can correct me. You had my understanding you had two applicants withdraw. >> Right. >> Right. So they're they're not pending. >> So absent those two, could you get there today? >> Get get where?
>> Meaning get to a yes with the uh absent those two. >> But that's coming out of the general fund, not out of Yeah, that's correct. I'm just curious. I'm just asking you a question. I'm not trying I'm not trying to put you on the spot. that would get me there is is because we did kind of give our word and I don't as much as I don't like the spending and I was in
agreement with the vote actually to be honest with you I it still has been on my heart that we just like you said we kind of made this promise and it's kind of you know I I hear them what they're saying too they they went through the hoops
>> we got two more >> so if you uh withdrew the Athens and the shoestring u there aotment uh or allocation was $39,832 combined which uh would leave a balance of $571926
instead of the 611 758. >> Okay. Uh Vice Chair Reinhardt. >> Thank you, Chair. To expand on David's question to Don, we can't do the echo this year. That's made very clear. We can't do it. we've already done. That's something to consider when we're talking about the
budget for next year. This year though, because they did everything that we've asked them to do because those two entities had to remove their their grant applications,
could you get behind approving the 571 926 for the remaining ones for this year? because they also answered the question and did exactly what we asked them to do. I don't know if I could do that unless we all voted that this would be
the absolute last year that we would actually >> cancel the or vote >> just on general fund in other words and then next and then when we talk about the budget for next year we talk about if we are going to do any type of funding for cultural that has to come out of echo that's a discussion for a
later date >> I'd like to hear what everybody else says before I commit on that. >> Thank you chair then sure >> okay Councilman Robbins Mr. Billy, I got a couple questions. Do you have the list of of asks um what we had asked the uh nonprofits to do in
terms of fundraising? Did we I'm pretty sure we had asked the nonprofits, hey, you guys need to fund raise. >> Yes. Uh in their application, they have uh they identify what they do to try to drum up more business to try to lower
their um use of general fund dollars. How many of them did fundraisers? >> All of them. Every every year they fundraised to try to get additional funding um through other state grants and other entities.
>> I one of my colleagues that said one or two of them didn't have any fundraising dollars come in. That's why I'm asking. >> I would have to ask them specifically. I I'm just I'm trying to get >> I'm trying to work something here, but I I
>> That's it. >> Councilman Johansson. >> Yeah. So, so one of the entities said that they invite other people in to bring in revenue to fund raise. That's not I don't think that's going to appear on
the 990 as fundraising. It's going to be revenue. So So when Tim says fundraising, he's talking about bringing in extra revenue to try to get off the government dole. When when Don's talking about
fundraising, he's talking about fundraisers as as in selling brownies and and claiming that money is fundraising money. >> That That's what I mean. That's a fundraiser. hiring a entity to come in and use the Athens theater is not a
fundraiser but it does raise funds. So I I just want to make sure that we're not again trying to interpret what what a government document says and say see they don't raise funds. I'm not saying they do. I don't know either. Um but but
um you know I I think at some point we got to cut to the chase and decide whether we're going to vote on this or not. Councilman Santiago. >> Yeah, I'm gonna think of see if I can get us to cut to the chase, Jake. Um, but to answer your question, Don, um, to
reiterate briefly, to me is that is is it's the the drive that I did last year, I feel compelled to stand behind it um, in in creating that program. Um, and that's the biggest driving factor for me. I understand the fiscal side of it.
We budget it for it. Um I would be okay with um releasing the funds for the exist for the existing applicants that we have right now. Not I think two have dropped out. Um but with the intent of
um figuring a solution um maybe in January we start talking about solutions for this what what we're going to do another tough decision that we're going to have to do. This January is going to be several tough decisions. Um, so I'm okay with releasing the funds to the
applicants that we have right now. Matter of fact, Mr. Chair, I I move that we >> we have a >> there's a motion. >> We have a motion. >> Sorry. So, Don would have to remove his motion to start another one or we vote on it and vote it up or down.
>> Oh, and right now the motion on the floor is to uh to uh pay the 57926 this year by uh downsizing of echo.
Can't do that this year. Okay. Don withdraws his motion. >> Mr. Chair, if I may. >> You may. I move that we approve the C list of current applicants for the cultural arts fund and direct staff to
prepare options for our January strategy session for future cultural funding options. >> Second. >> Okay. The motion is to approve the list of current uh applicants for this year
minus the two that have withdrawn. So the total is 579 uh 26 and then excuse me bring it back up for other um funding
mechanisms during the budget >> and it's and it's 571926. >> Yep. >> 5701 926. 571926. Okay.
Yes. Um, do we have public speaking and closing comments? >> I don't recall that's our protocol, Mr. Chair. That's >> But you've got an item that we're voting on, so I don't think you can not allow the public to weigh in on this. Um,
>> sorry, Mike. Not trying to do your job. send you my bill later. >> Yeah, there there's there's a couple God, I I hate being the bad guy because I I love the arts. I'm not against the arts, but there there's there's two things that I'm I'm really struggling.
One is that according to our rules, we shouldn't even be voting on this tonight. We should send this vote back to staff and have them bring it at the next meeting. That's that's our rules that we don't vote on the the fly, that we give the public time to respond.
And if you want to do that, then then that's fine. Um I I think according to our rules, that's the only way that we can we can do it. We can break to set our rules aside for this. But the other issue for me is that it for me this
whole thing is more of a of a philosophical a principled argument that I somebody said we're we're not a charity and I understand where she's coming from, but a nonprofit is by definition a charitable organization
that you can give money to and then take a tax deduction for it. So, it is we are making charitable contribution decisions out of public taxpayer money and I don't feel comfortable doing that when we have
people that are flooded out roads, sidewalks that need problems, people that can't afford rent and mortgage. I I can't with a clear conscience give their money away
um to a charitable as as important I think the arts is and and I I've told everybody that's wrote to me I think this strengthens um the arts because in a capitalist society they're all competing with each other and if they
have good programs they will be um rewarded by the public. Unfortunately, that probably means some won't. Like your comedy stop, the guy that was put on the list the this year that blows my mind. It's only $1,000, but a a writing
program. We have a $1.4 billion school budget, but we're we're being asked to give um more public money to a writing program. Um there's only so much money that we
can take from the public. So the the problem that I see with this is if we approve this, okay, we'll give it to him. And I do Where'd you go? I do agree with Mr. Santiago. Um I had somebody email me today and said they agree completely that this
shouldn't be a taxpayer funded, but he said you I feel like you went back on your word that you told him this was the last year. And I said, I don't remember saying that this was the last year. David just said it was and then I think he withdrew it. Um
I I'm not in favor of reducing um echo. If the council wants to vote for this that it's the final payment and that's it, um I can do that. But I think we're just going in perpetuity
with um spending taxpayer money for this. So that that's my struggle. Your name is Is that left over? >> No. And I just want to clarify, Mr. Chair, I I think the proposal that's on on in before us has nothing to do with reducing echo.
>> It doesn't. >> Okay. I just want to make sure for clarity purposes. >> You know, we'll decide that. Let's pay it this year and then bring it up the next budget season. >> Decide what we want to do. >> It could or cannot. We don't know what we'll do then, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Well, maybe
>> I'm good. Thank you. >> Okay. Anyone else? Okay. Two public comments. Uh, guess who >> Keith? you were for actually both of them say um that you were the second person. So Keith Chester and then uh
John Nicholson. >> Oh Jesus. >> I just remind y'all that >> I'm sorry. She did give just give me a third. >> I just remind y'all that same way with the roads. It's been pushed down pushed
down the road time and time again. The old adage can kick down the road. I've watched it for a very long time here. If you bring it back next year to discuss again, I'm afraid we're going to end up probably where we're at now. And we're
still going to end up with all the other needs. Some point, somebody's got to pull the britches up, be the big boy, and make the the hard decisions and and put your foot down. It's like council member Robbins said, do you if your
roof's leaking, do you paint your house? That's where we're at. I mean, staff went over all of the needs. And some say, well, it's only $611,000, but over the last 10 years, that's $6 million. How many feet of sidewalk would $6
million have done? What water issues could have been helped with $6 million? So, you know, every time we always talk about how the government's handing out the money, it's always just a little tiny amount in the bigger picture, but it all adds up. At some point, you've
got to decide where to cut. Somebody's got to be the the the dad, you know, you got to be the dads up here and you got to say no at some point because you've got these other things that you're responsible for. And I
again, if you don't take care of them as this council, you're going to be as guilty as the last 10 councils before you who didn't take care of our core needs. And now we're at a critical juncture. Somebody's got to make a
decision that's that's a tough decision, but it's got to be made for our future. Everybody talks about the kids and the veterans. We want to help all these different things, but we again we all benefit from good roads,
sidewalks, and infrastructure. Every single one of us, including businesses. So there's no group you can add to make your poster child that does not benefit from the government doing its core responsibilities well, being roads,
sidewalks, public safety, fire, all those things. That's where you need to be investing our money. Thank you, >> John Nicholson. >> John Nicholson beside I go back. You've never discussed what core is. You have
to determine what your core is. Now, he's saying you you shouldn't educate your population. That's not part of your core. No, you're saying we should not educate. We should not have education
because quality of life is an education. Sports are one part of our quality of life. So is our arts. All right. My proposition is that you've already budgeted
this money. All right? You spend it this year. Now, the next budget's not coming till when? October of next year. When is the election next year? Couple of days later. All right. So,
they can do without for a couple of days. It's on the ballot. It makes it very easy for Lisa to add one item to the ballot. Do you approve
of using echo funds for the maintenance of those buildings that you paid for over the last 40 years? To me, if you get 72% of the people saying you've got an excess funds in Echo right now, what
was it? $26 million. You can't give it away. All right. We keep building up this bundle of money to do these brick and mortar and we're not spending it. That's why we went to two two uh events a year to get these event this this
money out. So we have the money. So why not spend it on the maintenance? If we're spending it on the roads for evolution forever because there's no sense in having these areas and not using them. There's no sense in having these facilities, these opportunities
and and it is minority children on a lot of these people that could not normally afford the arts, could not afford music or whatever. It is not a giveaway. It is educating our population.
The arts are part of education. So my suggestion is pass it this year. Next year put it up to the the population. If they want echo and if they want valu at the 70 percentage and they vote for using this funds in the 70 percentage,
you're clear this is exactly what the population wants. Thank you. >> Cameron Vincent. >> Good evening. Cameron Vincent, art house executive director, South Daytona, Florida. Um, I would like to say thank you, sir, for calling it an investment because that's what it is. Again, we
talked about you double your money. It is a 100% return on investment. We're not asking for free handouts. We're using that investment to provide free and reduced programming to underserved and Valuja County residents in our county. So, thank you for that. I
appreciate it. I do want to talk about the fundraising. We all fundra. That's what we do. We don't we don't sit around waiting for handouts. Everything we do, every every time we speak to someone, every time we talk about our programming, we are fundraising from
scholarship fundraisers to Art House does the Fun and Funky, we do our um we do our street painting festivals. We don't stop fundraising. The problem is the majority of the companies and the businesses that donate to small
nonprofit organizations are hurting right now, too. This grant allows us to still provide for Art House 217 scholarships for camp for child care and for arts education that are helping
families out that are struggling. That's just one story of a thousand with all of our organizations. We're trying so hard. I don't work for Art House for the money. I make less than a Bies cashier. I have a second job. This is about
serving the community and trying to create resources and programming that make us more than just a two-day weekend trip to the b to the beach that's now disappearing. They come for the beach. They come for the race. They stay for the art. They
stay for the culture. We put heads in beds. It is a $1.99 earned for every dollar spent on this grant. And on the flip side, not only are we making the county money in tax revenue, we are then
providing so much free programming for people that can't afford it right now. We're not asking for an for an increase. We're not asking you to continue funding us for a million years. When you told us, we listened. You said you did not want the money to come out of the general fund anymore. You did not want
to pull this money without the taxpayers having a say. As soon as you told us that, as soon as you told us that, we have begun the steps of getting this on the ballot. So that if the taxpayers choose to vote for this, if they choose to make us a part of Echko or make this
a separate issue from ECHKO, they can make their voice known. That way, it's out of the budget. Please just give us the chance. Reinstate the funding for this year's budget, please. We need it. Thank you. Jennifer Morano.
>> Hello again. Um, thank you for continuing the conversation. Jennifer Morano, the Hub on Canal. It hurts me that you, some of you may have the impression that we don't fundra. We fundra nonstop.
We are, we are the biggest penny pinchers you will ever see. We have staff that works for free half the time. My salaried staff, if you figure it out, they're making less than a BES cashier or or less than, you know, a kid coming
out of school, you know, or or a a summer job. The passion is there, the fundraising is there. We meet with potential donors regularly. When you're cultivating a relationship with somebody, you can't just walk up to them
and say, "Hey, I'm Jen from The Hub and I need money and they're going to hand you a $100,000 check." Like, we hustle all the time. We're always out there talking about our programs, trying to get individuals and donors invested in
us. This is not I I don't like a handout. I'm going to tell you right now, that's not who I am. We will work for every dollar we have, but we're giving when we do outreach. That's in my case, $100,000 out to the
community. We're not receiving any funds for that. So, we have to all these programs we have to pay for and keep the roof on and keep the, you know, the roof fixed and the lights on. So, please don't have the impression that we are just waiting for a check.
We work 24/7. We go to bed thinking about how we got, you know, how can we raise more money and we wake up in the morning and we're ready to go again. That's what nonprofits do. That's what nonprofit staff people do. It's all about the passion and we work for it. So, thank
you. >> Thank you. And that's the end of the public comment on this. Uh, Councilman Kent. >> Thank you, Chairman. I uh I've not waited on this, so I appreciate the latitude and allowing me to speak at at this time.
I'm not going to bore the people that are here or this council anymore talking about how much my family and I enjoy the arts and and we go and spend our money where we want to when we're enjoying the arts. But I'm sitting here and I'm thinking,
how many times has this come before us in the three years we've been here? Why? Why does it keep coming up? I didn't bring it up. Other council members did because I believe there's been some indigestion,
some concern with this coming out of the general fund. And I have a problem taking taxpayer dollars and holding it here and then handing it out over here and choosing the winners
and the losers. I told y'all all the story. I got beat up. I got I had three people run against me for this seat. And I think most of it was because I would not commit Orman Beach taxpayers to spend $10,000 on a
Mary Mloud Bthoon statue in Daytona Beach. Did you hear that? I was an Orman Beach city commissioner and I got beat up because I would not take and vote to spend Orman Beach taxpayer dollars on a statue in Daytona Beach. Troy and
Heather Kent wrote a personal check to the Mary Mloud Bthoon Statuary Fund in Daytona Beach because that's how much I believed in it. But I didn't think it should have come from the taxpayers. That's not my call. By the way, I lost
four to one on that vote. Orman Beach sent 10 grand. Okay. They wanted to send 25, but because I barked a little bit, it only went to 10 grand. True story. go back and check the records. So, this has been indigestion and issues
for several members up here. Not all of them, but several. Why? Why have you all brought this up? Wh Why you're just going to give them the money again? Why are you putting them through this? We've been yelled at tonight. Fear-mongered tonight. One
group's talking about everything they're going to get rid of. And it was Everything for Kids, by the way. Did you hear that? everything for the kids. They pulling 50% of this from the kids and 47% of this from the kids. That's not accurate, but it's what it sounded like to me. You know, is fear-mongering because of you seven gentlemen, we're
going to have to cut these programs because that's No, that's your decision. You decide what programs you're going to cut. You want to cut from the kids, that's on you, not on me. So, I'm for the arts, but I'm for the arts. me paying for it and me giving what I want
to give out of what I make and I bring home after the government hasn't already taken 50 plus% of my wages that I've made. Okay. So, I just ask this
if this if you want to vote on this tonight and it goes please just do me a favor while I serve with you. Don't bring it up again. Don't make me go through this again. Don't make these fine people go through this. And they're fine people. Even though they got up and yelled at us and fear-mongered us. I think they're fine people. They're
passionate about it. How dare you take what's mine. What? That's not yours. That's the taxpayers. But it feels like that when it's been 36 years.
36 years. Gentlemen, when do you say, "I appreciate what you what you give the community and I want to support you privately, but it's not my role to hand out taxpayer dollars to you. That's just
not my role. So, they can beat me up on social media, call me disgusting, terrible names. That's on you. You got to sleep with with what you've done to people and what you say to people. But
it's not just the the arts. I won't take your taxpayer dollars and give it to another group that you don't think is worthy because I don't think that's my role. So I just ask if if if if this comes if we vote on this tonight, even though technically we probably shouldn't. The
chair is spot on with that, but if we vote on this tonight, just do me a favor. Just just while I serve with you all, don't let's not bring it up again. I'm tired of of of dealing with this for hours upon hours upon hours when you're going to end up voting for it anyway.
Thank you, Chair. >> Councilman Santiago. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh thanks, Troy, for the for your passionate comments and your history lessons on it. You know, because you know, if you know, to add to that history lessons, if you
recall the last two years, who brought that up each year? It was myself, right? And um >> issue. >> Yeah. I' I've brought it up and I've you know I've said to you know to to people that um that supported my
efforts during those times you know I'll have to be honest with you guys that that that I largely felt alone and I took I took the brunt >> of all of that for two years. >> Right. It it was largely channeled me to me and I didn't bring it up this year
for the reason that you just said a few minutes ago. Right. I also didn't bring it up because I figured that the last time and this is where I'm stuck. The last time we discussed it, we said, "Let's create this new program." Right. And and I feel compelled to my word. It's why I, you know, I I have my
philosophical fiscal concerns, Mr. Chair. I understand your fiscal concerns. They're s very similar to mine. But I also have my I'm struggle with my word that I gave that we created this program. Now, I didn't give, you know, my word on the
longevity of the program, but people went through the process for this year and all of us voted for the budget. I think it was 70. >> It was 70 and it included that money.
So, that's where I So, those two pieces make me struggle. Now, if we had this discussion in the budget, it might be a different position. And I probably would said similar, you know, I gave my word when we created this program, right? So, but if if if if we want to take it, I don't know where this votes going to go to be honest with you. I I this is one I
can't predict, Mr. Chair. Um but if you know, the the the dealmaker in me often says, you know, how do we we we we strike a balance here? Maybe maybe the the motion changes and says, and I'm not suggesting this motion yet, but I'll throw it out there, changes and says we
we we we fund the ones that are current, the 597,000, and it's the end of the program. I don't know. I'm just I'm just trying to strike a balance here because I know the motion says come up with options for us next year and I know it's going to happen. You're right. We're going to go through the same thing
next year and and and you're right because it's been happening for three years. So, I'm just trying to be a dealmaker here. I don't know if anybody wants to bite on that, but I know we have a motion also on the floor, Mr. Chair. So, I just wanted to throw another idea, see if that helps. But it
is a hot topic. >> Well, and thank you for the idea for another motion. However, I'm I'm going to go back to the what I said before that neither one of those should we vote on tonight. According to our rules, if
somebody has a motion for a vote, it's got to go to the next meeting. So, >> I think I have an answer for that, Mr. Chair, if I may. I think our rules allow for things to be what's it it could be accepted as a continuence because no action was taken at the last meeting. If
I can get if we can get a legal opinion, I think we're in safe harbor here as a continuence. I And maybe they'll they'll disagree with me. >> Yeah, I think you're both actually right. you have on many items decided bring back an agenda item on an issue.
This is one you took up last time. I think you're legally allowed to take action, but as the chair has noted that often times you may decide to bring it back and form an agenda item as your practice. So, >> and at same time, Mr. Chair, do we really want to go through this again for
four hours? >> I I don't think the body wants to do that. I think we're ready to take action. >> Yeah, we're Well, I agree with Troy. we're going to go through it again every year. >> Um because we can't make a a decision. And philosophically,
as much as I love the arts, I don't want to to tell uh all of our taxpayers to that we're going to give their money away um for our choice. Okay. So, the uh I was going to call the
question, but Jake, your name is up. No. So again, sir, you we gave the money away when we approved the budget. Um u >> No, we didn't. >> And and and we already assessed the taxes to the
people. We should have just not assess the taxes. Um uh number two, normally we would wait two weeks. And I I still do agree with you and I still think it should happen as painful as that will be. But but the reason we do that I
think is because it doesn't give people an ample time to communicate to us. However, I think you all got the same emails I got. Um uh and and the people that would argue for it were here. The
person that argues against it, at least via email, was here uh including us arguing against it because we did once before. Um, so I I'd be comfortable either way, but because of the rule
follower thing, which by the way, back to David's point, we did set up a a program that we're reiging on. Um, I I would I would like to go to the next meeting and and be quick about it. Um
the the longer we the longer we talk about it, the more doubt gets put in the question and we just make it quick and vote for it or against it and be done with it and move on. That's all I got. >> Okay. Then I I I think that the only way
that we can get there, Jake, is to deal with the motion at hand. And if it fails, which the motion is to approve a list of applicants this year and then take it up again during budget season, um
we can we can vote that down and then bring your um motion up to bring it back at the next meeting. I'm not sure what although I think you're right. I really do. I don't see the
I'm not going to >> Let's rip the band-aid. Make a vote, guys. We're in good legal grounds to to take a vote today. >> So, let me state the motion one more time. And if anybody mis thinks I misunderstood it, please I want to get
this one right. The motion is to approve the list of applicants this year for $571,926. And then we will take this up uh during the budget season next year to decide how we fund it or if we fund it.
>> Okay, Carissa, would you That's the motion. Uh and the um >> Can you advise who seconded the motion? >> I was just looking for that and I don't see it. >> Who made the second?
>> Okay, Matt made the second. David Santiago made the motion. Okay. Would you call the role, please, Cararissa? >> Mr. Dempsey. >> No. >> Mr. Johansson? >> Yes.
>> Mr. Kent? >> No. >> Mr. Reinhardt? >> Yes. >> Mr. Robbins? >> No. >> Mr. Santiago? >> Yes. >> Mr. Brower? >> Uh, no. What is your uh total?
>> I have that the motion failed four to three. >> Four to three >> with Dempsey, Mr. Kent, Mr. Robbins, and Mr. Brower against. >> Okay. >> So again, chairman, we're we're back in the same position as the last vote. We're just going to come back again.
Yeah. Okay. So, the motion fails. You can make a a motion of what you want put on the next meeting. Um, but we shouldn't vote on it tonight. If you want to make a motion different than this. Um,
okay. So, where does this leave us then? We vote Mr. >> M. >> Yeah, I'm asking the county attorney because you said we didn't make a decision last time, >> right? >> And no, >> I think we made it.
>> No grant applications have been approved. >> Right. >> Okay. And and David, you you went ahead. Are you done with your council comments? >> Um, yes, sir. Thank you. Oh, I'm sorry.
I did remember one thing. If I may, >> yeah, >> I just wanted to bring up to the council um share that the legislature is working again this year on um affordable housing initiatives including ADU um law
legislation on removing red tape mostly on ADUs and I think this year is definitely going to be a part of it. If I recall um this council about a year ago, maybe shy of a year ago, we had suggested some changes also on our uh
policies regarding ADUs and some flexibility there um in um helping to promote ADU capabilities and removing barriers. So, I just wanted to put it on the radar. If we can, unless there's objection, I want to see if, you know,
we can get staff to give us an update on that so we can I want to be I want to be a leader. I want us to be leaders in that area. Um, so unless there's objection is I think we've already given direction. We're just waiting for it to come back. >> Deputy County Manager Suzanne Kona. >> Yeah, Mr. Santiago, members of council,
I think that from all of the draft legislation we've seen come out of committee week, we already comply because we have modified our ADU uh provisions uh significantly in Valuch County. How about if I ask our team to
prepare a summary of how our regulations currently exist? We'll send it to all of council and if you'd like to talk about it, more happy to >> Yeah. I wanted to add fee barriers that are included there because there are fee barriers. Remember the concept here is affordable capabilities and there's
barriers um in our process I think that make it difficult for people. >> Okay. For the council's information to decide. >> Okay. Good. So that was your closing comment. >> Yes, sir. Thank you. >> The end of your closing comments. >> Okay. Uh Jake, did you ever get finished
with yours? >> I never got started. Okay. >> Um, uh, you know, I I asked the the the lawyers from DC who served us notice to stay. Are are they back there somewhere
that I can't see them? Um, I'm I'm going to ask for the public and and for the record for for Ryan to come up and explain to me how we pay for the judges
and and and everybody on the judges staff and things of that nature. >> Uh, the judges Ryan Osowski, chief financial officer. The judges are employees of the state and paid for by the state. There are some optional
programs, local funded programs that we pay uh some court service officers for like pre-trial services, drug court, that type of stuff. The judges are count. >> Do we pay for the guardian adm? >> There are some expenses that we reimburse related to the guardian adm.
>> Is it a pass through? the secretary, some property insurance, cell phone bills, some like very similar to article 5 responsibility >> administration. >> Yeah, >> got it. Thank you. Um I I I think I think that was a
I think that was a very important um education process for us uh that that things are happening that that we might want to be aware of. But uh similar to um
her name escapes me, Michelle Otter, I I struggle because I want to help but there's not much we can do. Um so so you know, you ask yourself after everyone I I go to the department uh directors and
say, "Hey, can you help her? Can you help them?" But I I don't think we're in a position to help that group with that problem. Uh and and I'll I'll I'll pass over to Mike Dyer. Am I am I wrong or is there something we should be doing?
>> No, you're you're correct. We do not direct the judges in how they process their cases, right? >> And they are um they are separate. Um >> we have no oversight other than their buildings. The county council is not the
right party to be complaining to. >> All right. Do we do we need to serve them notice if that's the notice of the notice or I hope they're listening. >> Well, um I I will be glad somebody one of us will follow up with the gentleman
that handed out his business cards to relay that. >> All right. Perfect. Thank you very much. Um there's a couple things going on uh in town that might be of interest to to council. There's a Southeast Felia
Economic Summit on Thursday. Encourage everybody to listen in or or watch. Um uh they're pretty interesting and uh they're going to be talking about storm water. We have a flooding subcommittee to
tomorrow at 2 o'clock at the Dennis McGee room and uh uh public and everybody are invited as well. That's all I have sir Kent. >> Thank you chairman. I have just a a
couple of items tonight. Um, I want to start off with a uh with a positive and uh George, it's for you. I've noticed on social media our team is doing a really good job of
not only talking about but showing pictures of the ditch cleanings and the waterways and that's hugely important. So, um I know you know Mr. Ryan's group is is working hard on that and getting
that information out there, but that's important for our residents to see and um there's no doubt in my mind that it's helped tremendously, especially with all the rain that we've had. So, great great job there. Um, I'm glad that uh the News Journal is still here because uh this
next one kind of um hurts my heart a little bit. But um and I say a little bit, but um we received an email from George uh talking about horses on the beach in Orman by the Sea. And I I had a
conversation with with George about this. And council, I got to tell you, um I've probably had and you've had probably the same 98% emails against the idea and maybe 2% for
the idea. Uh it might be 99 against and one for. Um it's it's that close. But the location is not feasible. Not only is it not ideal, it's not feasible. And as the I want to thank you gentlemen
for hearing me out on that idea. I still like the idea of riding horses on the beach. the location is wrong. So for that location and since I made the motion I am now a
nay on >> too soon on the on the idea. So I'm going to I'm going to pull that and um I hope that's okay with the rest of of you gentlemen.
It's just it's it's the wrong place. Um, we've got to have a place on the east side of A1A that can handle the trailers. And then I think it's the right place, but it's the wrong place for that. And then I wanted to briefly just talk about before our meeting
today, we several of us went to the supervisor of elections ribbon cutting for her building. I still did not get inside. I wanted to make sure I had plenty of time to get back here. But George and Suzanne, I mean, I I love
seeing some of my colleagues there, but I was most impressed that that you two were there. Um, thank you for taking the time to be there for one of our constitutional officers. And, you know, she has a very positive,
good working relationship, I believe, from what I see with this council. And that doesn't just happen. She's worked on that relationship and she's not been secretive. not that others have, but she will explain what she needs, the reason
why behind the ask, um, and is always willing to, of course, give money back whenever she has it. And, and that does nothing but help the investment in her and her program. Somebody mentioned today when they were talking about her about her
level of integrity. And as they were talking, I was just standing there shaking my head. Yes. because our supervisor of elections, I mean, she just has the highest level of integrity to do the right thing all the time, even when someone's not watching. And I'm
appreciative of that. And I'm appreciative, George, of your leadership, working on that relationship with all of our constitutional officers. But this one is the first one we got across the finish line. The building on the outside
looks just beautiful. Um, and it it serves the purpose. And I I I can't let the moment go by without saying the county owns the building. The county at some point in the future will start turning a profit because of the leases that that we have
there. And whatever we don't have leased out, George crack who get on whoever and make sure they get it leased out. Get the rest of those spots leased out ASAP. Um, hope you all have a nice evening. Thank you, Chairman.
You're welcome. Uh, Vice Chair Reinhardt. >> Thank you, Chair. I actually expand on what you just said. I did take a tour of the inside >> and and it's awesome. Great job, Janine Jennings. Great job. And she was recognized for that. So, um, one of the things that I
was so excited for Lisa to obtain that spot was the fact that she could in be inclusive, not having two separate locations, one for warehouse, one for the actual duties. and she took me through the warehouse. That's huge. Three bay doors. I was I
mean she is elated. I mean it just it's she's definitely uh one happy lady right now. And um I also like the uh the idea that um someone gave her the kudos that she deserves with respect to her her ethics and um nobody can nobody can uh
go against go against what she stands for and and that is appreciated. So, I commend also George for taking the steps necessary to obtain that building. Excellent choice. But yeah, it's in great shape, too. The whole the whole complex. So, it is. But, um, it was hot.
You couldn't do anything about the the heat, huh? I noticed your jacket got peeled off, too. So, >> yeah. I had to do that. I was praying for a cloud. >> Amen. And it did for a little bit. It did for a little bit, but other than that, I have nothing else. Uh, thank you, gentlemen.
Councilman Robbins. >> Nothing. Thank you. >> Uh, you were done. Um, >> I I just had one thing and that was going to be to make a motion to adjourn.
No, I wanted I wanted to say one thing to Troy on I know that was painful for you, but I think he made the right decision. I think the 1% that wrote to you were three of my daughters against my against my best advice and and maybe
Don Dempsey's daughter. Um but they clean barns and I said the picture what you're doing and then the beach but they still said we should do it dad. And um so anyway, we are
adjourned at 9:02. too.