##VIDEO ID:fw70yfsKfCE## e e e e e e e e e which e good [Music] afternoon it's uh 102 do we have someone online no okay it's a 3 minutes after 1:00 so I'm going to call the September 9th 2024 meeting of enra to order it appears we have a quorum but shall we call the role please pres Jessica gal uh Wendy Anderson Wendy is coming she said she may be just a few minutes uh Tyler is absent today Sarah Lee uh Bob fit Simmons he also said he wasn't gonna make it today John hoblick Jack seret Bliss Jameson Bill lights Alex zinski Suzanne Shyer Donna brosmer here okay one two three four five six seven eight eight is a quorum if anybody leaves we don't have a quorum although Wendy did say she'll be here so thank you very much Jinder um first apologies for the mask on today I've been having some breathing problems so I'm just being super careful for a while well I see a doctor um before we get into our business with low impact development which I know we're all waiting for anxiously I would like to bring up the County council meeting yesterday the item that was on the agenda was the reappointment or appointment of members to this committee um but the bulk of the meeting consisted of discussion of a motion that was made to um ask us to wrap up our work and to disband effective December 31st 2024 using the currently named um group of members on enra this okay so I made my first point this was an unended vote so the public and we had no way of knowing that that would be a discussion that would ensue and the discussion was very Illuminating if you go back and watch it because um clearly there is tremendous confusion about why enra was constituted what the benefit is of the way in which we work as torturous as it is or about the composition of the committee with diverse representation and that brings me to something that I would like some resolution on by the resolution that formed this committee there is a regulation we are required by law to submit our yearly work plan and to submit our yearly report our annual report on our work the annual report portion and we've had it ready since the beginning of this year thank you Sarah morisy um we were scheduled to have that reported to the council some months ago and that was tabled it has not been rescheduled and the work plan portion is important because the original work plan was set by the previous County Council based upon CI citizen concerns that have been raised over time but this Council has asked us to pretty much Focus on storm water which is what we've been doing most recently but that is not the same thing as having a clearly stated work plan for the year in my view a clearly stated work plan and so we don't spin our wheels on things that they have no intention of taking a vote upon um so I'm looking for feedback guidance some way to gain Clarity on this situation because there are very good people on this committee it's been a great pleasure to work with them and we are indeed spending a great deal of our personal time to do what we believe is a beneficial piece of work for our fellow citizens in our County thank you oh Suzanne so I have a question um for the committee because I think it's relevant to what you're bringing up um I watched online yesterday and saw the whole thing I know Wendy Anderson was there because she spoke in person so I saw her um did anyone else watch online or were they in the chamber you did yeah as you're speaking now and and you did and Jack did okay because that that puts like a few things into perspective as to like who was watching um the only thing that I just want to add to what you just said is um the committee has Guidance with staff and um I watching yesterday I don't I guess staff's position the best I can make out is not to show whether they support the committee or not and I'm saying that based on what unfolded yesterday so that was a little shocking to me because if staff wants to make the decisions and doesn't want the committee then just say it because I'm watching I'm just saying that's the way that it appeared to me um you're you're not wrong the staff works at the pleasure of the council and so um we are in a bit of a strange position in that the council voted to create enra provided a work plan and we're fully committed to implementing that if the council decides they want to do differently that's their prerogative and so we aren't the policy makers we implement the policy of the council so um I I yesterday when I spoke and I won't speak for clay but he can speak for himself um you know I was just trying to provide facts right that's our role in the county is to provide facts to the council and if the council says do it this way I will absolutely do it that way and so you're you're not wrong in your perception that's that's what we're supposed to do okay so I fully understand that and I appreciate your position as staff but I will say when Wendy got up and explained the timeline of what has occurred that was necessary and I I just I'm just saying whether anyone agrees with me or not okay I think staff could have said that and I'm glad she said it because I felt like somebody in the room needed to say it and she did but I would have thought staff would have said that that's all can I ask what staff was supposed to St to say specifically because remember something we are not asked of our opinions in front of the council and I did reflect that the enra committee did take up storm water and there were recommendations that were approved by this committee beyond that what else was I supposed to have said or Jinder was supposed to have said the schedule as to what occurred she spelled it out like how many times we've met what meetings had been cancelled that really revealed how much discussion how many meetings we had had discussing storm water that's all I'm trying to say I don't I can't get into whether or not there were five seven 12 meetings what I can report back is whether or not this committee had made final recommendations on the storm water recommendations you did it's relevant as to whether we met or not I would hope it's relevant to staff because it's relevant to the committee it's relevant to our decisions so I mean I like I said agree to disagree or whatever I'm just saying that staff did not say like how many times we had met I'm going to let it go with that I I did I do recall that both Ginger and I have indicated that this committee was committed and that we'd had good discussions on a variety of different recommendations and that we had made it through a large part of the work program that had been previously identified we as staff are facing the same situation in the committee in that our sitting County Council is not the same County Council that established this organization and what they directed to us and to this committee was stop and wrap up what you're doing work into storm water come up with recommendations on storm water and then we'll take it from there I have to tell you that yesterday staff did not expect the discussion that occurred yesterday we were just were trying to figure out what's going to happen with the committee and who is going to be on it and simple beyond that everything that came to us was a complete surprise as well excuse me I want to call on Donna and Bill next thank you Suzanne thank you clay and then Jack as well but I just want to bring us back that a large amount of the discussion we're having now before we devolve into any kind of finger pointing would be cured by having an approved making a presentation of a work I'm sorry but I don't think that was finger pointing so please try don't I don't want anyone reading into what I'm saying I was literally just talking because I watched and you called on me and I my opinion taken so a lot of it would be cured by having an improved work plan 100% taking that and and and if you staff because you are much more experienced in dealing with this than any of us if you have a different uh position otherwise I would I would say let's let's get in front of them and what do they want from us you know we have the LI to do Donna you were now I may be misunderstanding the the question here but I think it's a common misconception that that staff of any advisory committee is supposed to run things and they don't um the committee takes its direction from the governing body from whoever that the elected body and staff provides support um I I will share one of my favorite little anecdotes that kind makes that point um I was appointed in Palm Beach County to serve on what was then uh their version of The Grace commission remember those were the waste Fraud and Abuse things that sprang up everywhere and um it had been in existence for quite some time when I was appointed to it I sat there for three meetings the meetings were at 7:30 a.m. which was God awful to attend and so I was there against my will as it was but the only thing that was happening was that at each meeting a department head would come in make a report uh there would be a chance to ask questions no one asked any we would all say thank you and the person would leave and after three meetings I finally said what are we doing here we aren't we aren't asking any questions we're not evaluating anything we take a report they they leave I don't I don't see the point apparently the rest of the committee agreed and went to the County Commission because they disbanded the committee and the joke among staff was that anytime they wanted to get rid of a committee they were going to put me on it so so here I am but but I I'm I just bring that out because I I do think it's a misunderstanding about sort of not the pecking order exactly but but yes and and so we are the ones who were supposed to provide information and staff Provide support to us and I just wanted to clarify that point thank you um I think next was Bill oh Jack and then bill yeah I um you I had the pleasure of watching the meeting and U uh you know I as much as I uh I think I understand the relationship and understand the the nature of how the County government gets caught in these peculiar positions um I still believe that Suzanne's more right than wrong in that the support um by the county staff of the committee was uh was soft and in that I understand you you're in a spot you're having to explain yourself but the fact is that uh they did not I didn't think they had a full understanding of the significance of the review that we were going through and when and when Wendy talked about that they did get it that could have expressed on you but it wasn't also they they had this impression that we would get together almost on our own could we be provided a room that we could get together because Sunshine is keeping us from from really getting to the meat of the matter there could have been some clarity on your part about that versus say sure we'll provide them a room or that we that we would come upon the committee and tell them what we thought on individual items versus grouping together and and going through the extensive information that we have to review that that's information that in fact I think that you all could have expressed to the committee and did not I understand you know we're the driver but you guys are the conduit to uh the County Council and I and I still think that more could have been said at the time uh we we know the deal you know they're put it they're they're looking at us as a layer of bureaucracy they want less government and all these you know we're neither you know we're just trying to go through the things and make them reasonable and I think I think you know I I believe in the committee because I'm here and thankfully that you know that it died on the vine and that we move on um I was one of the few that was not reappointed so I might be reappointed by by uh Troy Kent when he's back um but it is a u by who um I Brower yes the chair reappointed you yeah well I'm I'm honored um I'm frankly surprised really I am uh because I didn't know but I'm I'm so glad you know I watched it and I that must have been thrown in I must not have been paying adequate attention that time um anyway I I you know to me I I think we continue on I think our days are numbered frankly you know particularly once we go through the election and all that if somebody if they're different players they may very well just say hey you know that that in group that's really more government and and cast it off and if that's the case so be it we'll all find other things to do but I think we've I think our heart is in the right place I think we're doing the right things and I think we're you know an appropriate committee for what is as I see it one of the biggest issues within the county which is development around environmental causes so that's that's my two cents and uh you know I I appreciate Wendy because I I'm convinced had Wendy not said that the trick would have been with Reinhardt alone and had he gone the other way this committee would be done come first of the year Bill and then John and then so I did not watch it did I get okay and what does that mean no listen so I wanted to just give you kind of The Facts of what happened right so um thir 13 people had applied to be on the committee um out of the 14 that would normally make the committee so even if everyone had been appointed there would still be a vacancy but Mr Kent was not there so everybody didn't get appointed Mr Kent will make his appointments at the next meeting so that um that would be when you would be appointed you just need to contact Mr Kent so we'll have two new members at our next meeting and then hopefully all of uh all of you around the table right now oh yeah Suzanne did not reapply and Alex zinsky did not reapply right so um our two new members are going to be Mr Burbank and Mr jono okay so then the next um I did not watch it um the way I recall us getting formed was that the um staff was going to propose some code changes and then the County Council said let's develop an interact committee to review those code changes and and then recommend approval or denial to those to the County Council which is what we've done um we have a very diverse board I think it has all sides of the spectrum and um I look at my role as um kind of running interference for the County Council and if there are things that I think are um going to be over owner then I would talk about them and recommend denial so if they dissolve us then it's going to be up to them to review the proposed changes so we're not a governmental agency and we're not bureaucrats we're just volunteering our time and I think it would be kind of sad but then they have to do the work and I think that's what we are doing is figuring out what's good and what's bad so uh Sly y oh I took it down because yeah I thought youd chickened out you have the nod I got the nod so I'll be quick you know served on this for two years and we've we've done a lot of hard work um and you're right bill it was at the at the command of the council to lay down our our our work plan for us and we've done that we've committed to that I think really what is up to us not staff but if it's up to us whether this committee survives or not is is hopefully you have a relationship with your council member and that discussion should be on the sideline between now and the next time they meet because if they're going to appoint Bill they're going to bring this subject back up it might even be an agenda item next time uh or at the next meeting so I would encourage everybody if you find Value in this committee then express it to your your representative and if if you don't then Express that too but I think that's the way you convince the council members that this is a good thing or a bad this entire committee would be reappointed because it made no sense otherwise and we have already going through this sort of a conversation so yeah I am disgusted in listening to this and I have to take staic and word that they did not have any idea that this was going to happen because quite frankly had you known I personally would have expected a heads up because I would have done everything in my power to do what Wendy did thank you very much and or at the very least to reconnect yet again with my council member to emphasize the importance of this work and how good this committee is and you know I do want to know if I'm allowed to contact Troy K to let him know how important these two gentlemen are to the work here not just the time because I actually know quite a long time ago and I'm sure our new members will be very good but if we really believe in this work which I have to believe those of us who dedicate our time to this St anywhere have other things to do if this work isn't importantance to the council and uh you know maybe we do all need to show up or do something because this is ridiculous to spend this much time having this is the second or third time we're doing this whether we're needed whether we're wanted and we're supposed to spend how much time on liid today the rest of the meeting exactly so with that um Jessica [Music] and if I could real quick just before you get started um there is no uh legal problem with reaching out to Mr Kent about um who you believe should be on the board so it's not like a sunshine issue thank you agreed um I watched the council right before this meeting and halfway through I was like are we having a meeting today they would have told us if not so I knew it ended up okay um thank you Wendy for being there the comments were well taken I think by some of the board I want to say I love the passion in this room it is clear from the discussion that those voting are not watching our recordings so keep that passion and take it to the council members directly I will say um and based on the discussion yesterday I think that seeing action of recommendations from us is the best way that we can kind of push forward give them results and say is the value that we bring um so I'd love to shift to the L aspects of it and my only caution on the work plan is that we now are reappointed we don't have a reason to go back before Council until these recommendations come forward if we give them a work plan we are giving them another opportunity to decide whether or not we should be here or not um but maybe in a way that we control and can know that it will be discussed and that we could appear so that's all I will say thank you let's talk about liid but I am still troubled that we have not complied with the resolution bill just one thing before we move on did we finish uh storm water so let me let let's recap and this uh is important because we um skipped over approval of the minutes and so the minutes are actually from the meeting where you did in fact make recommendations about storm water and now what is expected is that the development engineering staff will take those recommendations that you made in the July meeting uh and come back with actual you know proposed ordinance language um so you're done for the moment on that topic and um we'll need to get back to minutes and then for the rest of today's meeting the plan is to talk about low impact development and um Samantha has a PowerPoint that she's going to go through with that that summarizes all of the voluminous information that you've been provided um I guess for about a month now uh and a couple well and I want to I feel like I'm jumping around um I have a couple of things for you on liid but um just to recap on yesterday's council meeting so what happened in the end was um everybody so Suzanne and Alex decided not to reapply for the committee so this is going to be Suzanne's last meeting um Alex isn't here so we we won't see him again U Mr Burbank and um Mr gono had applied and are now going to be on the committee and we'll reach out for a orientation so a new member orientation and at our next meeting because we'll have new members oh and since Mr Kent wasn't there uh we have 12 members appointed right now Mr Kent has the opportunity to appoint two people there's only one other person on the list and that's you bill um no one else has applied so um we'll need to maybe reach out and get applicants Jack's on he's good yeah Jack Jack's good I'm surprised but I'm glad yeah um so so that's that's what what'll happen at the next council meeting Mr Kent will appoint his one or two if we have more applicants uh folks and then we'll all meet that part you know in October and we'll have sort of an organizational meeting right do we want to keep meeting on the same days do we uh and we'll have to vote for a chair and a vice chair right so we're going to do that at the next meeting hopefully today I'll stop talking and hopefully we're going to get through all of the liid stuff that Sam has it's a lot so we're going to try to go kind of fast not to you know hold down any discussion or anything but just to sort of frame everything so we can get some decisions made and um I have two things if you're interested um Tyler couldn't be here today so he sent us late last night some notes we haven't necessarily gone through all that we just got it um and then I also have the Matrix printed out if you're interested in The Matrix so I'll come around while Sam starts the talking we have to deal with the minutes first though yes yes sorry about that I move to approve the minutes did anybody have any observation involved in I I have a comment on behalf of Suzanne uh and and her significance uh uh page four and line 10 um they mentioned Andy Romano's um Park and Romano is is misspelled I just wanted to make sure we got you know thinking of you Suzanne and then I have a change I think page two line 28 I think that's half a foot instead of half an inch is that right yes what page line uh two page two line 28 it says to allow for a half inch margin eror but be a half yeah with the 6 in start anything else bill I act Jack you're you're good I actually pulled the sly you know I'm so proud of all of you no yeah I do more than that so so um just a reminder on page one lines 37 through 39 and page two lines one and two we we're just supposed to get the storm water the link for storm water I don't know or if that's what we got three meetings ago because I do know we got something on storm water um page two lines 31 through 32 I have a question yeah reads he meaning Todd casbeer noted that the safety Factor could be applied for a trial period with the metric being post implementation flood and the results prior to implementation I don't think that is exactly worded properly I I I don't know if it's discussing pre- and post or or the fact that the metric is whether the land floods or not does anybody um yes the part where it says metric being po implementation flood in the results prior to implementation I don't know if that means even prior to implementation of the ordinance or it's it's it it doesn't make does it can someone help me have that make sense it looks to me like he's saying um comparing the pre-imposed right well after implementation versus before implementation right whether a half a foot was a good thing or not we can go back and listen I might yeah or suggest yeah um and on page three line 25 stormw Water Pond located on site and addressed design storm I don't think that a scriptor for storm is design or is it okay thank you I didn't know that terminology and then and then I wasn't clear on page four line 16117 discussion ensued regarding exploration of Redevelopment standards creating a balanced approach and reflects a decrease in regulations and the community's desire to make Redevelopment easier I I think the gist is I are we saying so we discussed Redevelopment standards focusing on a balanced approach yes and reflects a decrease in regulations the discussion reflected a decrease in regulations yeah for re for redevelopment that's what yes that's right okay good that's it so we have a motion um approved and second made and seconded uh to approve the minutes all those in favor can we say with the corrections noted yes it's your motion wait who You Move Motion yes with cor thank you so Wendy move that we accept the minutes with the corrections noted and S has seconded it all those in favor I I any opposed the minutes are approved thank you okay so we're going to go through liid today it's going to be broken up into sections I know that you all received the PowerPoint um of last week at least but you received all of the information prior to that so we're going to go through each of the deliverables today um we're going to stop at the end of each section after I go over it I'm going to ask for comment and questions from you all provide your feedback we'll have discussion after you're done with your discussion I'll ask the public if they have any questions anyone from the public if you have questions or comments there are comic cards up front over here um if you would just fill that out and then provide it to Chelsea over there truste raise your hand yeah okay and then um we'll be able to take your comments or questions as well all right so we're going to get started all right we're just going to go over the milestones we have back in August of 2022 there was a $775,000 grant from the Florida Department of Economic Opportunity um for a grant to develop liid ordinance recommendations for the county and uh guide book for the entire region then moving into June 2023 is when you the enra committee made a recommendation to County Council to go through the liid audit tool it to evaluate our codes identify any barriers and then with a goal to revise the code to facilitate a hybrid use of L and GSI in October 2023 County Council directed staff to utilize the L audit tool to evaluate the code and develop a draft ordinance which encompasses voluntary L and GSI say GIS practices with uh incentives then November mber through this past April um we conducted the audit of our comp plan zoning ordinance and Land Development code and by we County staff we had Environmental Management zoning planning Road and Bridge development engineering fire rescue we had the health department weigh in on it we had a meeting with St John's River Water Management District and I'm sure I'm missing a few other County divisions and departments that also had input in that audit traffic engineering is one of them as well all right here are the audit results you were provided those back in April um just a snapshot of that then kind of overlap a little bit January of this past year through August we developed the future land use element Amendment company ordinance and the guidance manual which you were given a month ago to review August until October we're going to have citizen comment period so any stakeholders I I sent out a large email to all our different stakeholders Engineers land use attorneys everyone a cop across the spectrum that does any type of development um and to you all as well okay this is just a snapshot of when we have discussed L here at enra so 2022 just once four times in 2023 and now today in 2024 for a full discussion so we've touched on this topic just a few times over the past few years all right so our deliverables we have a comprehensive plan amendment to our future land use element we have three different chapter 72 land planning amendments that's one in our article one definitions and interpretation article two for our zoning ordinance and then article three which is Our Land Development regulations and then we also have an accompanying liid guidance manual to go with it how these are broken down is that we'll see as we go through today but you all know cooperad of plan policies um that that's our overriding goals objectives and policies then we develop our regulations which are Within Chapter 72 the chapter 72 changes are going to show how we removed barriers and then developed a new section of the code to implement our guidance manual a manual is going to have all of the very specific items within it the manual itself can be updated regularly by staff in order to change because you know there are new ideas new Innovative policies that have happened for liid so that's changeable which is a great thing for local government so that we can change it as the tides change right okay now specifics into our deliverables for the future L use element Amendment these are all the changes that occurred one clarification between urban and rural land use we allow conservation subdivisions within Urban residential land use designations previously it was only allowed within or directly adjacent to our environmental core overlay so we broaden the Spectrum for where you could do a conservation subdivision which has a lot of L practices within them the next is that we allow creation of a flexible process for implementing liid and GSI with incentives we restricted clustering to Urban low intensity and urban medium intensity L use designations with Central utilities that's very important that it has Central utilities because we want to Cluster all of those right to leave um areas large enough to have conservation areas and such um excuse me does that include sanitary sewer versus septic system correct thank you all right then we allow density bonuses within Urban low intensity and urban medium intensity so currently the maximum Urban low is four dwelling units per acre we allowed them to get up to six dwelling units per acre the current Max for urban medium is eight dwelling units per acre we have a proposed Max of 12 dwelling units per acre yes I just wanted to point out here um so a lot of our discussions among staff and there were you know often maybe 15 staff members in the room when we were going through these um was you know to balance this U making liid um interesting and and um attractive right to to developers in the areas that it makes sense to do these things while protecting the parts of the county where maybe density bonuses aren't appropriate and so this the where density bonuses are permitted in urban low and urban medium was very deliberate to protect with the rural parts of the county from overdevelopment or I shouldn't say overdevelopment from a different development pattern right um so you can do low impact developments in um nonurban areas but um density bonuses wouldn't be part of that development right so just to be very clear that that was a deliberate choice of to make sure that we're protecting the right areas of the county and directing development to the places it should be Wendy I I know we want to move Move Along at a pretty good clip today so I don't want to stop and ask questions on every page but could you um could you clarify the distinction between conservation subdivisions and clustered um developments because when I think I mean I think I know what a conservation subdivision is and and where it used to apply but I think of a clustered subdivision as basically the same thing because you do still have a significant amount of Green Space set as side which is why you're clustering to protect the green space and so so then my next question I'll just kind of put them all out there and let you talk about it is you know it's never bothered me to talk about having you know zero lot lines or close you know clustered houses um you know some people really take issue with 40 foot Lots or whatever like I've never cared about that as long as we have the Green Space preserved and the overall density of the area doesn't change and so can you address how you get to increase density in the clustered subdivision without losing the protected Green Space which is the whole point okay so um conservation subdivisions versus cluster subdivisions as are going to be within the zoning ordinance and our L development code um the zoning ordinance has a cluster subdivision provision within certain zoning classifications um that is where you are allowed to decrease the lot size and the amount that you decrease that lot size you have to set aside for um common open space areas so that's what a cluster subdivision is a no density bonus you you have to set aside that area that you are essentially clustering right that additional area has to go to Common open space elements um and that's within our type of code right then uh conservation subdivision is within our Land Development code and you are essentially allowed to um develop your piece of property with clustering those lots but you o have to set aside a certain amount of open space within that so you get density bonuses than a conservation subdivision depending on the amount of wetlands you preserve so the higher percentage of wetland you preserve the higher density you are permitted and that is done through our Land Development processes let me also kind of jump in the cluster subdivision has a very specific size lot that you can go to yes it has very specific standards in regards to that and as Samantha reference there's no density bonuses and it's allowed in just about a larger number of zoning districts in cluster subdivision or conservation Subs conservation Subs were created in 2014 as a product of the uh County's effort to do their smart growth initiative and it applies only in the environmental Corridor overlay so there's a differential there second of all there were no specific standards in regards to lot size or those types of things so therefore or it's uh allows for the developer to come in and be creative in their lot configuration and size and as Samantha referen there's a sliding scale performance base to get the density bonuses so if you do the bare bone minimum to get in a conservation sub you don't necessarily get any density bonuses but once you start going above and beyond in regards to preservation of wetlands and open space then you get a a a a greater level of um bonus and the densities and um in regards to how we can do it within the confines of our existing Urban settings such as Urban low and urban medium what you're seeing is that um the density bonuses they're getting provide them an opportunity to come in with a product that otherwise would not be available so typically when you see Urban low with a four units per acre you're typically seeing single family as opposed to Town Homes triplexes those types of things so therefore what we're showing is that there is an opportunity to go to a different type of housing type to increase your intensity that way or alter your lot configurations so the whole point is to still be within the confines of the densities that are assigned by our future land use element but still provide for incentives so that those that way folks who are utilizing the um the low impact development green storm water initiative we can do so um one of the things we heard in our conversations conversations with St John's was that they do support Li but what they're typically seen as the amount of land that is necessary to provide that same number of treatment from a conventional storm water system takes up more land so therefore what we're hearing is the reason why it's a disincentive is it may increase the amount of land that is needed so therefore if that's the case let's get the more density on the land that would be able to be developed for it and I I chuckled because I confused them last week of lot the conservation of cluster and cluster subdivisions I'm making sure I retain this correctly their open space that you set aside Wetlands don't count and conservation it does so that's correct thank you okay so we've identified where density bonuses are permitted so it's an urban low intensity and urban medium intensity and then we specifically put in where they're prohibited um so they're prohibit prohibited within the natural resource management area within Wetlands within areas that are vulnerable to sea level rise and within F designated flood Hazard areas or the hunar flood plane we also have put in the future land use map or future land use element amendment that bill within the FEA destinated flood Hazard area is prohibited for the development of lots and we made sure to identify that that was within an liid development so there was no confusion for a typical development additionally we allow a maximum 5% fler ratio bonus within low impact urban urban low intensity Urban medium intensity Urban high intensity commercial and Industrial last 10 years we've seen Fe change those those flood areas are there buffers to this as well or is this just flat whatever line te draws that's what a line draws by so it's a definitive line with no correct I just want to provide a quick editorial in regards to what FEMA is doing right now I can tell you that uh they are coming in and due to the extensive storms and uh responses that they've had to come they are really putting the pressure on local governments to step up in their enforcement of uh flood planing regulations we have currently a specific division which identifies that we're we're lucky in that we we are I would say doing a good job of it um but I can tell you this much that over the next several years everything we're hearing coming out of Washington and Atlanta which is the local office that we deal with that there's going to be a heck of a lot more specific standards so we're just anticipating that we're going to be seeing that development within the flood plane is going to be very very restricted in that aspect and and and being able to offer any kind of buffering or Alternatives will create um difficulties in getting and passing mustard with FEMA Jessica just in case it's helpful I ran the math because I am bad at floor area ratios the 5% increase is just about 2,000 square fet additional per acre 21 something now okay and as we did the the density bonuses then you're allowed to have four ratios so we did density and then intensity so this is for commercial Industrial Development right um and I do have to say that uh the low impact Urban I have to double check I feel like staff may have removed that from an intensity bonus section so is tentative at the moment um and the last thing we did within the future Lane use element is that we added Associated definitions and acronyms for low impact development and and things of that sort um so that is that concludes the future land use element amendments that we have proposed now I want to open it up for questions and discussions from you all if there is any I'm opening my notes and I do have to say that we do get into Bo specifics when we get into the zoning ordinance and the um Land Development code changes and then the manual itself okay so that's I'm sorry so that's what I was thinking about and I was gonna wait but I'll just ask you know on the prohibition in Wetlands what I was thinking about was a quarter eight just for the sake of the the example if a quarter acre of a wetland fell in the area and the Land Development code allow for that even though it's prohibited in the land use sement so um just to be clear so this isn't about the Wetland ordinance and whether or not you can impact a wetland this is should you be granted density extra density for Acres of your property that are wetlands so what this is saying is if you have 10 acres of wetlands and you're trying to figure out what your density is you don't get to count that 10 acres to get more units that's not to say that if you had to impact the Wetland for some reason like your road crossing has to go there or whatever that that you couldn't do that once you get to the land of Elon coat this is really just about the density the density yeah I had just most of the questions I had got answered in the presentation but just just yeah just sort of a sticky Wicked here on wording um lines 1920 2122 SG 2.1.3 um it says the Land Development regulations and any accompanying manual should set forth a flexible process for authorizing subdivisions and site plans implementing low impact develop techniques with Innovative designs and we definitely want to incentivize the low impact development that's what this is all about with great explanations with very concrete examples but I don't know what Innovative designs are as is that term I'm not familiar with or is it fluff in a way it is can you tell me which policy that is SG SG 2.1.3 do3 okay so we're right here um so that is language that we brought over from other policies um and it kind of just allows flexibility so um the Innovative designs we don't know exactly what all of those are at the moment right um and we have a manual to identify some of those design types or best management practices but we also wanted to allow the flexibility to change that at a later date so we didn't want to put ourselves in a corner to list out everything specifically particularly in the comp plan right which is really these overarching ideas and policies um you don't want to be very specific because then if it's changes then comp plan amendments are not the easiest thing to accomplish so I just found it kind of diverted the attention a littleit from the L that's known as planner speak among I I actually had more more planner speak comments but I'll send those off by an email and not torture the committee Clarity it's thank you I'm I also call it fluff when I write it so I like that term um on 2.1.5 and this is me being picky to is there a way to add language at the beginning that says in addition to where otherwise authorized I don't want it to be read that cluster is only allowed under this provision because we have it in the others bill just the way it reads now it's kind of saying cluster development is allowed if you meet these standards I would just say in addition to where otherwise permitted so that there's like the lad cluster and the norm yeah you add language clarifying language like that don't so um I had our planner look at this because I'm just an ecologist I don't understand all of the future land use but basically he's said this is okay it's good stuff but and it's not going to hurt the development community and our clients but the problem is that the incentives are insufficient um he talks about and I can send this email out if it helps but um you must preserve 30% of the land in permanent conservation and you only get from you know whatever we said the incentives were two to four units for to eight and that other counties more than double or triple the base densities depending on what's preserved in the amount Boulder Colorado doubles it Portland Oregon doubles it King County Washington triples it Sarasota County triples it Chapel Hill North Carolina doubles and Miami day doubles or triples so from the planners that's um some comments that we might be able to increase so he thinks it's going to be kind of like the conservation subdivision and clustering we just never do it it's a great ordinance but just never gets taken advantage of and so if we're going to do it why not just make it desirable that's definitely for discussion for you all as the committee BL um my question had to do with incentives as well so say a developer is um going to include U or plans to include um Li in in order to improve storm water runoff will St John's um water management allow um liid to provide credit for the storm water yes yes we had a meeting with them um to make sure that anything that we were proposing you know was something that they would accept and they said um a couple of things one anything that is about the volume of storm water if the engineer can demonstrate that volume amount then they'll count that as volume that is needed you know toward the requirement um and any kind of liid proposal for water so you know the district has water quality standards as well um that the engineer will have to demonstrate the water quality um Improvement of whatever BMP they're using and they will count that so um yes it's it's on the design engineer to demonstrate that volume but the district will accept it and they're interested in low impact development bmps okay and then to to tag on to that um and this goes to um something Jessica said earlier about the cluster versus conservation and I might have misunderstood but um so if a developer is going to provide storm water um will a developer have toide provide storm water um retention in addition to the cluster the storm water requirement comes whether you're doing a conservation or regular subdivision so we across the board we require all new developments be it a site plan for a commercial or multif family site or a subdivision uh for commercial or residential purposes they still have to do storm water requirements um what and then again it's those are the standards were talking about with Tad over the last several months okay for some reason when I was reviewing and I was thinking there was a like a double dip you you you're managing storm water twice yes yeah you're putting it in a pond and then you're also sorry you're yeah you're is it is it is it necessary to put it in a pond first before sending it out to the Natural Area the Wetland it to spread out well right now with given the changes at the state in regards to Quality even before it goes into the pond it has to be treated before it goes into the pond so that that way so you're you're seeing that um before the water can quote unquote post development exit your site we've been looking at but if your site includes the preserved area I mean like why do you need a pond if it's going into your own property that is just a wetland or a forest or whatever you don't necessarily need a pond although the pond is generally the the most efficient way to do it that there's a certain volume requirement that you have to meet um and you have to keep on site well you you have to either in some cases you can discharge the predevelopment volume right so if a certain amount of water is running off pre-development that amount can still run off post development so you have to retain on site the same amount that's being retained pre-development how you do that is up to the design engineer most often it's a pond what we're hoping to get is to to more treatment train approach right but we're probably not going to eliminate ponds and directing storm water to Natural areas absent some sort of burn or something is probably not going to get you your volume requirement is it I'm not sure that was the question all right I I'll try to articulate it in a different way okay if the developer is providing um storm order retention do they then have to provide additional retention for lid no the volume requirements aren't necessarily different that it is what it is right that here's your site here's what the design storm is here's how much you have to retain or detain on your site that's no different in liid versus a traditional development the difference is in how you meet that standard so if I have to retain x amount of water do I do it all in a big back Pond or do I have you know some treatment train things the volume isn't different from one type of development to another we're not um requiring more under An Li scenario it's just how you provide and we are not double dipping in that if say you're coming in with a conservation subdivision and you're doing at least 60% open space if you can utilize that open space as part of your storm water system you will get that credit Jessica I was going to say I think ideally if it's implemented and it gets to the code versus kind of St John's is that it would result in smaller pwns overall and more of the different treatment types and when we get into the code provision side of it I think we'll see that it helps with some of the items that we talked about with storm water and buffering where you can have some of those facilities in your landscape buffers and things like that to help utilize more of the site all right any additional discussion from the committee on the future L use element amendments oh barely I I I'm not ready to discuss it so much but I I think I'd like to uh Echo Bill's comment about density oops I'm sorry I think um I think we we may want to talk about that because I I tend to agree that what we're proposing may not be enough of an incentive to do what we're trying to get people to do so not not wanting to Sidetrack us right at the moment about it but want to just say I I think I yeah so when I it's up to the committee but um when we get to sort of the Matrix and you know the different incentives no you are you growling I would prefer the I would prefer the um discussion to occur now so that we can move on to the next thing um with uh the chapter 72 requir ments because this is the overarching policies right so if we want to have it larger um then we I I think the discussion should occur now um and then make a motion and then finish the land use okay this was a popular question I've lost track of gonna make the motion I make the motion to double the existing density as as the incentive just to get the conversation going so for clarifications that would mean in urban low that if you did that you the maximum would go from 6 to8 dwelling units per acre and the urban medium would go from 8 to 16 dwelling units per acre four to eight from 8 to 16 now and I would just I'm G to throw out one comment before the discussion we uh at the staff level had originally gone to four to eight the comment we got from the planners just so you know is that when you get to eight dwelling units per acre it gets you to a new future land use category which is urban medium so see Urban medium starts at eight um if you allow eight and urban low it is for all intents and purposes actually making it a different future land use I just throw that out so that was part of the discussion that we had internally not that you can't do it just I wanted you guys to hear that can we make it less than eight the less than symbol so if it is exactly eight if you my motion please go forward with what y'all want to recommend again what you're hearing and I'm staff is going be on the conservative side we're not going to necessarily push to go from a single family to a medium density in one F swoop if you feel based on input that that is an appropriate thing please go forward with I would amend my motion to go up to seven to stay within the Uli and then to go what's Urban high intensity TW 12 is the then you get high is up at 20 maximum of so minus one from the maximum for each let's double check because I know but if we're making these rules up why not just get what we want that's what you're saying that's where I'm I'm landing so why don't we propose triple and see where that goes well but to Samantha and Ginger's Point like we already have the categories and so maybe what we're trying to do is just sort of expand what the categories entail Y without bumping into the next category so redefine the categories I don't think we're trying to get people to ask for land use changes because that creates a whole different process with its own issues so I I don't think that's but that's certainly not what I was advocating in but um I and I don't know what the maximum allowed today in urban medium intensity is I can tell you right now Urban medium Den intensity allows up to a maximum of eight dwelling units per acre Urban high intensity goes from 8 to 20 okay so we're already allowing I mean the proposal already allows for a density increase within the same C atory okay so that's what you were saying all right so then I'm back to the original motion just double go from in urban low you're allowed to go from four up to eight and in urban medium from eight up to 16 then we back then we're back you were already pushing past the l no because Urban low goes up to four units per acre correct oh back to the original Point here yes we are not giving enough density in my opinion here as a bonus to get people to do this and we already know we're not getting people to do this so if we really want people to do this we got to do something different and just to clarify for the record even with the recommendation of six units you were pushing out of urban low into urban medium and even with the eight units into 12 you were pushing into the urban high so if you feel like doubling it it will still be the same impact in regards to progression into the next land use yeah is that a well I okay so so I I I hear you and I'm understanding you but you all proposed something that was already doing that correct that's what right so it's Apples to Apples you want to do it do thank you for that clarification we have a motion on the floor to double each of the incentives corre I second it Don got there first thank you both of you uh any discussion any additional discussion Mr hob I guess my question is under the ostes of low impact development by doubling these numbers is that really low impact development I and I I guess I'm trying to be conservative here in my mind we're trying to improve the rural communities and even the urban communities by low impacts and here we are talking about forget the low let's add high and question I don't know what the science says what it is but to me you would think there would be some science behind what's low impact and what's high density we were directed by Council to make sure we had an incentivized approach to liid Sure taxes do something different besides you know the density okay just one quick clarification when we say low impact development it's pertaining not necessarily to the densities or the it's the development form and how much of the site is being impacted by new development So when you say low impact development that means instead of having 10 acres with 10 individual single family homes with upwards of 60% impervious area you concentrate it on to say three acres where all that's impervious and so now the Seven Acres H is greater perious area than it does and it follows more the natural drainage in regards to soils and the grading and the overall impact and I guess my rebuttal to that would be is that sustainable on 10 acres of plant to double the density to Cluster to Cluster it's well it would be a theoretical maximum right so what we're what would be being said is you know you could get to a Max maximum of of some number you would still have to do all of the things that qualify you as a low impact development right you have to do four of the site design things you have to do two of the BMP things you may or may not ever reach the theoretical maximum which then makes the density bonus you know kind of MOT I guess but um at least it's that theoretical maximum right so if you can cluster if you can go up stories or whatever then maybe you could get to to higher that's thing just valid yeah and to that question I mean when we say low impact development we're talking in the structure of storm water right green storm water infrastructure so it doesn't change the maximum impervious allowed under that zoning District or building coverage it's going to be a change in housing product types usually so instead of doing 10 single families you do 10 duplex and you cut down your footprint or you do some multi family town home product and you can cluster and save it that way you still have to meet all of the Fire EMS school all of those capacity requirements to show that your impact isn't beyond what can be supported um but it's just about the site configuration Clay did you still have something no I was are you I'm good good I I think you know Clay the way you said that I think is really important as you move forward with these public meetings and whatnot not um form it is form looking at the site because you know John's question was good because it's it's a little bit of a misnomer low impact development and you start thinking about all the services that go along with development and now we're giving these density brones it's a little bit of a oxymoron so I think that you're commentary is very important as part of an introduction to this subject matter okay thank you right so apprciate the guidance if there's anybody from the public that would like to speak on the motion after Bill then this would be the time and it's more about where the water goes instead of having a huge pond with a single point discharge it's about Distributing the storm water into um maybe shallower area so it can percolate and treat and all that kind of stuff instead of how many units there are you're clustering those units going up so you have more land to treat your water and you don't have to fill as much I think that's John are your is your name thing up because that's all right I put it down uh Mr B out but he need to be on the mic thank you thank you um this sounds like you're almost encouraging people to go vertical if that's the case are you going to have a company changes your Land Development code you love right because right now they're on 35 ft that's pretty much all I had thank you good point any other comments from our visitors today from the public uh Bliss I would just like to add on to what he said that you know if you are going to go above 35 ft I think you would have to do it west of West of 95 or west of US1 or whatever because or else that would be handled if this are going to be minimum standards it would have to you know have a a a borderline for all of your Coastal communities that do not go above they already have um High restrictions and that is a perfect discussion for our two sections um the specific requirements for the incentives for height are listed in the manual so if there are restrictions on that we can definitely discuss that after the land use okay so I did I just want to make it clear this is um un incorporate accy only these proposals no correct which still does contain coastal areas um we had a motion to double the incentives as they appear on this page we had it seconded we have had discussion uh are we ready to vote all those in favor I any opposed the motion carries thank you okay were there any other Chang that the committee wants to discuss for the future Lane use element Amendment or is the committee okay with all of the other recommendations by staff all right then we will move on oh usually what was your question yeah um the question was if we are the committee is okay with all the other recommended changes to the Future land use element that staff has proposed or if there is any other changes I just had verbiage ones that I don't think you I want to bore you with okay all right then we will move on to the next section yeah this is great we're getting things done okay so um next section for our deliverables on the screen for everybody maybe all right is our chapter 72 article one definitions and interpretation um very simple changes here we're adding new definitions for environmental Provisions um green infrastructure green storm water infrastructure low impact development and the low impact development guidance manual so that everyone understands what those items mean um we also are revising the substandard lot definition which a substandard lot is any lot that's less than 5,000 square ft or 50 ft of width to clarify that an approved low impact development subdivision um the loss within those should not be considered substandard uh right now the code does reflect that if it's in a PUD or conservation subdivision things of that sort that are one of those or go below that they aren't substandard because our code requires variances if you have a substandard lot to develop them so that's just a clarifying language and that is the only changes those are the only changes within article one we did we did not receive those correct those would have been within the ordinance the ordinance okay so I'm breaking up the ordinance that you received into three different parts there's article one two three would anyone like Donna brosmer moves do we have a second Jack sett second any discussion all the all those in favor any opposed motion carries to accept the changes to chapter 72 Article 1 definitions and interpretation did we have any comment from the public on Sor this is a new thing do we have any comments in your problem right so moving on to our zoning ordinance there are a couple slides on this so first we have it to it permits L lots to be smaller in size and width than permitted by certain zoning classifications it allows liid incentives such as Building height and reduced setbacks to be permitted by right and not ire a variance or waiver from the zoning enforcement official just want to make a comment here this is an example of when we did the um audit tool right and we identified barriers and so now we're getting to um how that informed some of these proposed language changes that you're going to see and the specifics for the incentives the height the reduced setbacks and there are more we've said such as are all within the the main M cell okay so removing a barrier here um the current regulation or previous regulation we can say um is that there is a continuous non- mountable 6-in High concrete curb is required Around All Landscape areas so if you think of a parking lot our code currently requires there to be a curb around that entire thing right our proposed regulation is that a protection measure is required Around All Landscape areas and may be designed to facilitate the use of liid for storm water management purposes so we are change or proposing a change in the co the zoning ordinance itself so that uh developments other than liid developments anyone can now utilize landscaped Islands or landscaped row and parking lots and things for L storm water management purposes but they does not necessarily mean that they have to go through the manual itself to have a whole led development anybody can use it out so it's a the removal of a barrier so do we need motions I Look to guidance from the folks who know what's coming I think that once we get through the the zoning section just like we did the future land news element then we can have open for discussion and then do it correct yes we just had before we had article one and that was the only slide that's why that one went a little bit faster and now we're still in the zoning coordinance with these okay so just we're clear we're going to go all the way through Article 2 zoning and then we will vote at the end of that so thank you all right um another removal of barrier is that our previous regulation included specifications for the type of landscaping um within an interior landscaped area so it required a certain size tree with shrubs around it and things of that sort our proposed regulation allows for flexibility within those interior landscape areas if it's being used for Li storm water management purposes so if you're going to be putting storm water into a landscape Island you may not be able to put a large tree in there depending on the the species right you may want to have Wetland type plants just depending on the soils and and what have you for that specific site so we're removing a barrier here for anyone to be able to do on any type of development site all right and that is all for zoning so Jessica followed by S Follow by Jack in reviewing the Landscaping changes for flexibility is there any interaction between requirements for irrigation and use of L ID we did not change or propose any changes for the irrigation portion of the landscape ordinates however the current portion that speaks to irrigation does allow for flexibility as approved by the zoning enforcement official um we can add language in there to clarify that if it's l that there's more flexibility if there's storm water running into it you wouldn't have to have more your so I would recommend there being a motion to that effect Jack s Lee Wendy I I was wondering about the what is a protection barrier other than a curb that um allows for imp interpretation um from the engineer maybe they want to do large rocks maybe they want to do curb Cuts within it because it's the code can right now says a continuous non- mountable 6inch curb right so maybe there's doing curb cuts to allow it in there so it allows that flexibility from the design professional what if there was nothing there I mean when it says protection barrier you know I mean there's there's no curve let's say it goes from pavement directly into grass is is is that allowed no because that's there is no protection measure okay so it could be a a very small curb maybe Miami St Miami Cur okay all right thanks s then Wendy yeah um I was going to Pig you back on some of that but uh uh on the trees like there's flexibility now oh I'm not going to put trees in there the tree requirements though as in number does not change so that's correct the um here within the zoning ordinance it speaks to the zoning required Landscaping it's not speaking to the minimum requirements in the tree ordinance for how many trees they need to have on the site as in total Wendy so my question was related to that too I mean are we going to have specifications for what Li type plantings are I know that later on there are indications about native plants and and things like that but um for example later we get to language about a vegetated Swale a vegetated Swale shall not be in my mind just saw sawed in a Swale it should be plants that are actually adapted to what conditions and um you know so if we're going to you know allow them to not put in a tree where they used to have to put in a tree they have to put in something more interesting and functional than just a carpet of saw so have we have we sort of accommodated for that okay yeah I've highlighted on the screen the specific language that would um that's proposed that I you were sent um I hope that everyone sent it um but in here we say that they can install appropriate size number and type of native vegetation to facilitate the L best management practice so we are specifically saying need of vegetation and we're saying it needs to be appropriate for that location but we didn't want to put a developer in a corner and say you have to do this many of this type of plants because teach SES differ and and we interpret that there is no native turf grass okay so turf grass wouldn't need this requir thank you um we have have we we've asked our questions I don't believe we didn't have a motion on this no we don't have a motion and um you'll need to decide uh if we want to include in whatever motion that we uh change the irrigation language okay would someone like to move that Article 2 zoning changes be approved with the modification to irrigation do I have a second do we have a second okay Jessica gal moved and S morsy seconded any further discussion any so the vote all those in favor I any opposed the motion carries and we are at our 2:30 traditional moment to take a biology break no more than 10 minutes please application she has in um the information that you just Shar with he can sit so should be Pro to go out app but then all a sudden we'll take the money back let's play this scene um this CLC Miss's case is going in front of c and CHR R talk okay I'm and okay okay I my ni 11 do my job listen Happ here oh in you should you m it is 2:40 so exactly 10 minutes and I think the only person missing is Sarah Le right outside the door je could I bother you to just stick your head out sar's in the hallway thank [Laughter] you the rest the all right uh shall we all righty go for it Sam okay so now we're moving right along into our article three Land Development regulations what we're doing here is that we are adding fire service facilities to concurrency requirements currently they are not in our Land Development code um we are removing a barrier prev which want to um say that in our future land use element Amendment remember how we spoke about um the conservation subdivisions being allowed in more areas well now we are codifying that within our Land Development code so removing that barrier the previous regulation um only allowed conservation subdivisions within are directly adjacent to that environmental core overlay um our proposed regulation to is to allow conservation subdivisions within Urban residential land use designations we are adding a brand new division 19 called low impact development within that new division it identifies specific Li regulations um stating that they are actually within the L guidance manual we clarify that conservation subdivisions can use liid practices and gain incentives but they cannot gain additional density bonuses it states that liid subdivisions and site plans must follow existing procedures within the Land Development regulations that just means you have to submit your application to the land devel velopment office you have to go through their specific application process so we're just saying you have to do the same thing that you've always done but you have an L development if you meet these certain things um also within that new division we are requiring a submitt of an environmental impact assessment right now the code for a typical development only requires an environmental impact assessment if it is within the environmental Court not the Norma Norma yes thank you um the natural resource management area let's talk about that for a second if we could so regardless of the where for an lid you now have to do an E E eia assessment yes ma'am and and we are why do we why so um a big part of liid is your site develop how you do your site development design and so we were wanting that eia and it specifically says in there um well within the manual to identify how you are designing your site to meet liid so the fact that you looked at the Topo you're putting this over here you're conserving this portion of your site you're doing this that and the other so we were wanting there to be identified document that isn't completely different than something else a developer normally would submit to identify those items that they did during their site design yeah so the idea is that you know where the um the sensitive parts of that site are right so if you have a scrub J habitat on a particular part of the site or you have a wetland or all of the things that the eia would identify that that's done up front so that that guides the site design elements of liid because while we're focusing a lot on bmps that deal with storm water the first tenant of liid right is avoid right avoid minimize mitigate right so avoid is put the development on the right parts of the site and the eia gives insight into what the right parts are I I may have the nomenclature a little wrong and I I would look to Bill I think of eia as a a pretty burdensome regulatory type of document which when I hear the way you describe your expectation that is very different than what I think about when I say eia and maybe it's just the terminology I don't know I'm not expert so you're thinking of the federal process through the NEPA review yeah and yours is a little different but you do still have to talk about noise and air right on these let me read exactly what comes out of section 505 uh an environmental impact assessment by a qualified environmental consultant identifying the effects of the proposed development have on the area at a minimum it shall include information on Wetland protection tree protection surface and storm water management land clearance Air Quality protection of environmental sensitive lands and critical habitat and protection of endangered and threatened species so most of that we would do anyways except for the air right yeah everything else is the typical biological report um besides the air and um also you had to identify if your proposed development is negatively impacting the environment that's what the normal eia is now so so Jessica Bliss then Melissa I was just going to say in terms of where this applies it's tied to right the site plan or the subdivision and so the eia is not going to have more of a burden by then you have your tree survey you have your Topo you have all of those things your survey already has to show your wetlands and FEMA and all of that and I think the noise section is really just it won't have an adverse impact and it will comply with the noise ordinance typically so we get them done all the time at the zoning level so I think it's oh air sorry air quality won't be impacted and this is for the unincorporated areas yes ma'am do we really have that big an air issue in the unincorporated areas the only thing is that uh air quality may be pertaining again this is a generic eia so if you had something such as some kind of industrial use that were objectionable by the general public you would want to have an air quality anal fuel terminal but all right I'm just trying to to avoid redundancy because you know to get the envir I mean the industrial Zoning for such a thing they have to go through all the air you know they air quality um to make sure that you know they aren't polluting and well for land use and Zoning we don't require that for the site development we would require an air quality report and in regards to non-residential that uh involves industrial uses that may be generating these air impacts we would definitely want to be able to see it and conversely if you had a residential or a non-residential that is not a known gener erator of air issues that can be waved by the DRC yeah typically it would be a statement in that eia that says we're not going to contribute to any air pollution with this development it's not like there's some lengthy you know analysis with math and all that it's this development won't contribute to you know air quality problems if it is something like a gas station or you know some other kind of thing like that then then we do definitely want that information which is appropriate but I didn't want it to be overburdensome for the other uses and understood my question is a little bit like follows up also on you can't hear me okay I'll speak up um on the yes okay we said that applications for development for a low impact using low impact development still had to go through all the procedures and processes and any regular development correct so do we also require the environmental impact assessment on any other development so so two points yes liid has to follow the procedures of any other development except we weate specifically you can do these things without a waiver or a variance right so there a lot of Provisions that otherwise would require a variance but if you're doing a low impact development they don't require VAR so there is a procedure in terms of how we route your application that is the same but um doing the low impact development gets you some um ability to do things that you would really do administratively um the second part of that is yes we do require environmental impact assessments on developments that are within the natural resource management area currently this would just be saying if you're doing a low impact development regardless of where you are you would be yeah and and that's what's troubling me a little bit about that and help me understand it is if a developer is entertaining low impact development presumably they have the incentives and the desire to minimize negative effects on the environment in the development and we're adding and they're already going to do a series of things which will be incentivized that will carry that will be liid that will be less impactful on the environment but we're asking them is it is it simply because typical construction goes in and does you know scrape and fill get everything off and so you aren't depending upon natural natural topographic features to let the water flow the way it's always flowed that kind of thing I because it's like we're adding we're adding something a hoop that they have to jump through and that hoop may be very needed I just want to understand because for me I don't want all of them I think that in staff size we were thinking that this is a document that um the developer or their engineer their biological consultant is used to submitting and so it would be just a simp in our mind a simple way to put in that document okay this is how I made an lid development this is how I looked at the site um if that is something that we think is an additional barrier to doing an liid develop I don't think that it is a deal breaker with staff um if that was removed we were just thinking that it is a way for the developer to clearly tell us what they did to make it an L be on the site plan it's a document that they decision about where the clustering is happening well they they have to do the work of the eia to make those decisions appropriately um so we were thinking that they would submit that information to us so that we can then evaluate that site plan and say oh yeah they preserve the scrub habitat that's great good job you know versus you know they just deciding Willy yeah so we have Clay Bill Jessica again I just want to point out is that right now in the current code requirements we are utilizing the term eiia for an analysis that I would say 60% of what's required in an eia is required of any development so yes because we require Wetlands to be identified for site plans or subdivisions regardless of where you're at we require tree surveys and tree protection methodologies regardless of where you're at or what you're doing we still require analysis of surface and storm water management we still identify where land clearing is going to be the big thing is we don't necessarily require air quality except for as we were talking about industrial type uses and then specific speically the critical habitat and endangered species and threatened species are the issues that carry on more into the eia bill Jessica I'm going to ask Bill so this works um to me like clay said we have most of it but I think that a lot of times the developer has some information that the county doesn't of that layout so they always know the habitat and if it's not an endangered species we don't really pass that on to the county we know soil types but we only outline the elevations not so much the soil types I think on the survey when it goes in so it's providing that information that's not a burden because when they go ahead and do the borings on site you have that analysis done um it's just providing more of it to the county for the justification Bill still have I'm just kind of back to it's a and I don't know if I should bring it up now but um we're not doing this in rural areas right so Mark makes the comment apparently rural areas do not will not benefit from liid um liid is permitted within the rural areas we just did not have density bonuses within those land use classifications so land use classifications are the urban low intensity and urban medium intensity um so we wanted to make sure that that was within area with Urban Development not rural development and much of or not all of rural is that Nora a lot of it does so it's a nor and the other incentive would apply in rural areas it's just that density and intensity that wouldn't apply in areas so for instance you know one of the incentives is reduceed tree um replacement fee that would be available it's we just didn't want to increased density and intensity in Ral areas and that gets back to what Mr H was bringing up about character so therefore if you're an urbanized area going with density and intensity does make sense if however you're out in the rural area we don't want to utilize that as an incentive so that that way we don't have a highrise out in the middle of Pearson come in that Improvement so so someone would use it as a deer stand okay thank you that's it so went through the requiring this an eia um it Iden this section this division identifies waers and modifications to the manual are permitted um with approval by the development Review Committee the DRC is what the approving body for any modifications to the Land Development code uh currently for any site development project also within the division is that we identify a process of appeal to County Council which is the same process any other site would have to go through um it specifies that requirements for construction and maintenance of L best management practices are a condition of approval of a development order so just like a typical site you are required to keep it um what as the approved plan how do I say this so however your approved plan is you are required to keep that site in perpetuity that same way unless you came in for a modification so this is just identifying that the bmps are also a part of that so on that one and the next one identifies failures to maintain um or removal of liid maps that stuck out to me as I was reading through the matrices the crib sheet um where for in in the case of the homeowners association the LI Landscaping it has to be clearly con conveyed explained to the homeowners association that they need to follow that um and there also was a mention of a requirement to De over a certain percentage of buffer lands as an easement to the county so my I I have to look that up but my question is two parts is it only through code enforce ment that um the best management practices are maintained throughout the life of the subdivision or development that is our current process for any final site plan or uh residential subdivision development okay so all right thank you Bliss what pardon me real quick just to emphasize on that also part of that will be HOA documents that will be required to provide for covenants and restrictions that address the maintenance and oversight of that um so what would happen in theory is that some of these areas would be identified as common areas as a individ individual tract owned by the homeowners association so any Co enforcement activity would be going after the homeowners association to ensure that they either restore it back to and let's play play it out like you know you have a vegetative sale that's being utilized and uh the folks that live next to it don't like that so they come in mow it out s it up with St Augustine our Code Enforcement Officers would go back out site the homeowners association and identify that they have to restore it back if someone calls the code enforcement officer in reality ho have a difficulties maintaining unified so I would assume yes called would come in very diplomatic Mr yeah oh BL I was going to say um you know we had talked previously not this meeting but other meetings about how there are HOAs that you know become defunct more or less because they do not keep them do not enforce them and then they're still out there it's not like you know there's really any recourse and as these um in today's time with inflation and everything I am aware of other associations homelanders associations that can no longer keep up with the maintenance feed so things are becoming in disrepair and you know allowed for nature to take back over so therefore the liid is not necessarily maintained it's whatever is growing and um they're you know the the residents of these Association just flat out do not have the money to pay the maintenance fees to the landscape Crews to keep it maintained and they are now being defun and I just based on the few I know of I can foree this happening more and more which would be the same case if it were beautiful landscaping excuse me that would be the same case if it were not landscaped in in natives clay uh there was a on a side know there was an interesting discussion um that was held among staff with an applicant regarding the development of a Community Development District uh for those of you it's a creation that identifies specific infrastructure improvements such and maintenance of their of those infrastructure improvements so that may be something that in going into the future where it's actually a dedicated millage rate on your tax bill instead of an HOA fee so therefore it does provide um one method of ensuring collection of the funds and identifying specifically what those are to be utilized and restricting them to that um they are not without their critics so I don't want to say it's an end all be all but it's something that U we can be talking about at a later date as to a PO potential way of addressing enforcement so does does that mean this would be um taken over and all this this maintenance would be handled by the government no the a community well a Community Development district is an independent taxing district it's basically a another layer of government that's created by the developer to fund their infrastructure and maintenance of that okay so it's of the developer and then eventually controlled by the resident so like Plantation Bay and Flagler has a CDD that runs their roads and that's quite there are quite a few of them in the Pavilion in Port Orange is a CDD when you only they don't do it on property tax if you look at your receipt when you leave any of those stores you'll see an additional fee that's used to pay the CDD and one dayt all that but residential y okay so we were all of that came about because I asked about yeah go ahead Junior oh I'm sorry Suzanne I didn't so in line with what you're saying um there was an HOA in South Florida that did not keep up their their grounds and uh their retention Pond was completely covered in slime and the place did not look great they came before the IRL Council to ask for money for grant money to be able to help them clean up their act the IRL only has so much money to go around and there were about I don't know 19 applications and so they were they were denied but they had a three-part plan to clean up their act and they presented that in their application so um they're getting creative with what some of them that think ahead are getting creative trying to figure out a way to clean up their axe just sorry okay let's continue all right that is the end of the article three Land Development regulations um proposed changes so would anyone like to move that these be accepted or amended in some way Donna it's already out um given some of the discussion about methods of enforcement I I realize that code Code Compliance is the current method but I wonder if it simplifies it or um something to say will result in enforcement action and then that enforcement will would take whatever form is available at the time and maybe not just limited to Code Compliance just a thought yeah that would make it less prescriptive and more generic that we have in most of the sections of the code which just says you know chapter one governs compliance rules are and if we don't put who's going to be doing the enforcement then at what time are we going to identify that well and I think that as it relates to the enforcement mechanism to the extent that it is tied into the permitted storm water plan by St John's I understand that they and their new rules are adopting provisions on financial viability of applicants and getting stronger enforcement provisions on this that level as well so that if it failed at that level there's another arm that can reach out for enfor Sly I make a motion that we approve um the proposed changes to chapter 72 article 3 Land Development regulations second second at first by Miss but thank you Mr H and I saw you jack you were about to do the same thing um any discussion all those in favor any oppos we have yet another unanimous vote May the record ref FL is there anybody from the public that had any comment on that section oh I okay here's the good stuff okay back in here so to get into the guidance manual um we're going to break this apart in sections as well because it's large um and probably want to tackle it that way um right now we have five different chapters in it an introduction standards how you evaluate your site all of the storm water bmps um and then the maintenance section the introduction is just as is it's an introduction section I did not put that in here to discuss just kind of describes what Li and GSI are um in chapter two is the standards so you all have received the um the manual itself and we can flip back to the manual if it makes it easier for you but but I want to do an overview what the standards are before we get into the the Weeds on it so we have that a pre-application meeting with Land Development activity is recommended for the site we didn't have it as a requirement um there is a minimum of four site design bmps and two storm water storage treatment and convey conveyance bmps that are required So within the manual we have those best management practices broken down into two separate sections one is how you design your site second is what type of green storm water infrastruct or GSI practices are you doing um for storm water goad and um certainly this can be up for discussion but um we went back and forth quite a bit about how to um incentivize the bmps enough that developers are going to want to do them um and but also how to make it so that it's a package right what we didn't want to see is you do one Li type thing and you call yourself an liid development and you get these incentives right and so um you know we we came up with this four of the site design things and two of the storm water things because that seemed like enough to make it a robust enough liid development to be worthy of all of the incentives that you would get um and just as an aside sort of because we want wanted people to do multiple things um in The Matrix that you've seen we identified things that go well together so that it'd be easy to package something so like for instance if you're going to do curb cuts and you're going to do um a sale in your parking lot Islands those are things that go well together easy you've got two right so um that's how we ended up with the four site design and two storm water to make it enough to make it really look like a low impact I thought the pairings were very nice kind of like wine and cheese in The Matrix so yeah so did I so going back to our original recommendation to the County Council that because of sp250 they couldn't take Lock Stock and Barrel we were requiring a certain number of liid practices and then if you did if you went above and beyond you became eligible for incentives that's basically still what we're talking about here or not so much it's all voluntary right Council said make it all voluntary you know your original recommendation was that all new developments should do some liid elements specifically the site design stuff um but that's not what the council directed us to do so all of it is voluntary but we're still saying if you're going to be at L development and you're going to be eligible for these benefits you have to do more than one thing yeah bundle up some things make it thank you and we have the four sight design bmps versus the two for the storm water storage um because if you look through our BMP list there are a lot more site design best management practices that are listed so we figured that would be easier to pick four of those than just do two of the storm water so you'll see that as we get into it um within this chapter 2 standards we also have the specific cemental requirements um identified in here and it breaks down the specifics for how to submit a cover letter that details all the best management practices with the incentives implementing design we kind of just list them so that makes it staff easily identified okay so you did all those it's an liid development you'll probably get um certain incentives for fee reduction so whenever they do the intake simple and easy for staff to process um and then you have that environmental impact assessment that it we list what is typically required in the codee um if anyone has their chapter two in front of them um the sections a b and d are already required for an eia the additional uh language we put in there was to evaluate how the application of the chosen LED best management practices for the proposed development assists with the impacts to the pre-development conditions and then we say see chapter 3 and it describes how you would do a site for l so those are specifically listed um then we in the next section of chapter 2 list out all of the incentives um and what's required within them so for lot development incentives we have flexible lot sizes flexible building setbacks increased density increased floor area ratio for zoning incen so we have increased maximum height the BMP permitted within the landscape buffers or setbacks um on uh increased floor area ratio D I hadn't thought about this until Jessica pointed out the math uh and similar to our conversation about density and units per acre do we need to think about something a little bit higher than 5% and I note that we are strictly in urban commercial industrial type land use and you know 5% is just under 2100 square feet that is that's nothing so I just throw it out for a discussion we're Back to the Future Landing cell I'm going to have it on the screen for you as a comparison that may help in the discussion because I'm not passionate is the live local act Amendment this year allows you to go up to 1.5% of the designated floor area ratio if you do that's huge correct so it allows a 50% increase basically so why don't we just suggest that less extreme 30 I mean what's fair what will incentivize people to do it that's the real question and we did try to get that out of the development Community we sent out a survey asking you know what incentives would you be looking for what what would make you want to do a low impact development we got four responses so we can't necessarily answer that question very well but um you know the other thing on all of this because the way we've designed this is that the code changes are what you all just approved I'm just basically saying allowing for liid and introducing the fact that there's this manual and all of the specifics are in the manual um we have the ability then to learn as we go right and so we we we adopt a manual we think that what we've suggested are good suggestions and and we of course are taking input from this committee and other folks in the end we'll have some some documents some you know that'll go to council if it's not perfect well I mean nothing's perfectly right but if it's not right we have the ability to change it and that's really why we um chose this method of of implementation with the manual rather than have every specific thing in the code it's hard code changes you all know this um so whatever the number is that you recommend is is what it is and then we'll learn from that as people do or don't take advantage of it to those of you who know this type of development better than I do you anticipate where you see it is it more likely to be a residential nature or non-residential show limitations established in the comprehensive plan for non-residential Bel m because uh residential both multif family and single family is limited by the density and then Building height Etc you have four area ratio specifically right now in the urban low intensity for example to no more than 50% so that means right now within a urban low intensity designated parcel if they were able to do commercial develop and say on a 5 acre track they could put 2 and a half Acres of building area so what you're saying is that taking it from 50% to 55% may not necessarily trigger a great deal but it changes it from 2.5 acres to 2.6 Acres that can be developed on that so it it's it's m and it's also theoretical because again there's going to be a limitation going vertical that's what we've heard from folks outside our survey is that once you get over three floors now all a sudden you're having to put in elevators you're having to put in a variety different other fire suppression requirements so there's going to be for every Advantage you get by getting for ratio there's going to be a corresponding cost I would recommend that we go if you feel it 5% is insignificant and does not give enough to development Community let's go ahead and double it as we did similar with our densities can see if those provide sufficient efficient incentives thank you suzan so industrial is industrial one and two is that correct correct okay so um I'm questioning industrial being on this list at all and the reason I'm questioning that is because it is completely different for a cement plant um industrial for what it is all of these other items on here that is completely different and I can't fathom all these items that we're talking about applying to Industrial just to respond it would just be clust or intensifying using less land and allowing more storm water treatment for percolation I guess so it's the same as a commercial so I would think let me just put it out there I'm referring to the fuel terminal situation in Orman Beach right now I don't see that situation fitting in this realm I don't they don't have to do it though this is voluntary liid is voluntary so right but they but the Amazon distribution center to to Wendy's example the Amazon distribution center may have opted to do liid I understand but I also brought up a cement plant right so I I2 let me let me finish I2 is open-ended zoning I2 with all of this does not does not fit I was going to say um I think this is more applicable to the um industrial parks the business parts that you're starting to see I mean you see them they're everywhere like um you go down 95 where you're going down I4 and you see those large Class A industrial um parks and you you know you see the the storefront on the front and then you go behind and that's where all the doors and the dock eye is and there's just rows of them those were the industrial parks and so that's where I think this is applicable your cement plant is typically not going to be in that type of Park it's it can be in in an industrial park but it's going to have um you know it's just a different anval itself itself and it sits on a piece of land by itself itself I don't think and C plant is a the way staff looked at it again is similar to the concerns that Mr HBL brought up previously is that the low impact development and green storm water infrastructure is not necessarily a land use control in regards to the intent or the type of use it's talking about how you develop on the site so that's why we felt that industrial commercial and residential we all open to this opportunity um and and as you heard yes there are uses in all of our land use categories that create uh cringeworthy moments in some of our residents and and so the issue here is that it's not associated with a specific type of development but really a development standard applied to the property that that's why you saw that so I think where we are is if we if some we want to increase the floor area ratio bonus we'll need a motion to that and then if there's a discussion about what um land uses should be allowed to participate in low impact development we would need a motion to that I think we had Jack and then bill yeah I uh yeah I was going to go back to that too and it seems to me what we're doing is trying to get the attention of the developers whether they take it on or not and and part of this may just be the the image of bigger numbers in other words going from 5% to 10% sounds a lot better and so maybe maybe they can't do it and they turn the page but I I think what we're really trying to do it sell low impact development is a voluntary thing how can we build enough incentive in there sometimes they're not going to take it but but I'd like I'd like to U like to move that we move it to 10% on the FL area ratio BS I'll second that does that take care of your comment too or would you okay thank you so we have a motion that has been seconded uh made by Mr shet seconded by Mr lights to increase the maximum floor area ratio bonus from 5% to 10% all those in favor any oppos no um motion carries with one descent we well we went back we've been through this area the feature land use element and we' moved on so Bill you had a we need to go back and V on future l no we just did okay yeah and now we'll go back to chapter three of chapter 72 um excuse me the manual okay so in chapter two of the manual all right we we spoke about the lot development incentives just listing them off right now not getting into the specifics yet of what each of those mean um which we we can't do in a minute um zoning incentives increase maximum height the BMP is permitted within a landscape buffers and setbacks um BMP permit open landscaped islands and rents those are the things in the parking lots um BMP is credited as Landscaping BMP is credited as common open space um there's off street parking flexibility for numbers um and then increased lot coverage and environmental incentives we have a reduction in tree replacement requirements or fee incentives we have reduced building permit fees and reduced Land Development fees Land Development application fees and for other incentives we have a variance and or waiver not required for use of St me andp um within here and everyone was provided The Matrix today um on the screen The Matrix is a quick snapshot of those incentives I just listed and then all of the best management practices on the the leftand side the X's state that if you do this BMP then you have opportunity to gain those incentives and as you can see within that Matrix we have the ability or the developer has the ability to gain all of the incentives listed exes for that one BM so they have the option depending on what type of site they have so there more flexibility within that so I think one thing to notice is that the increased density and the increased floor area ratio is really limited to those bmps that preserve a significant portion of the site oh I'm sorry um so maintaining natural topography preserving the flood plane um conservation subdivision has its already its own density bonuses so um you know when staff was looking at this we really tried to Reser Reserve those density intensity bonuses with things that you get a lot of bang for your buck so to speak question plants is matri bmps are on the left cor yes and then these are the criteria within those are these I don't know how many of them there are 20 or sever of them Plus are those part of the restrictions to Cluster U clustering or the the four options or whatever that you can do to get your you need bonuses yes so um site design bmps are page one and two so you pick four up on page one and two and then the storm water bmps are page three and you would pick two from page three good and so now that everyone is looking at the Matrix in front of them I want to go through the specific incentives and then we will go through the requirements for the and the best management practices on the left so we want to just talk about that top row of the handout that's in front of you I so for lots of out Min on the screen zo everybody can see it so we are not following well so we're looking at the Matrix and we're going to go through the top of the matri explain exactly what each of those means and answer questions as we go through each of them and have discussion okay so for flexible lot sizes the developer May create the preferred minimum lot size for the subdivision development a lot development plan must be provided with the overall development plan and plary plat applications that second sentence is just the process in which they have to typically do it anyways um but this language what is the same as it is in a conservation subdivision right now so the developer right now if they did a conservation subdivision can create the preferred minimum lot size so for L they have this ability as well for if you're looking in your Matrix the associating b& PS with the X listed so in other words as a developer I want to maintain I'm choosing a BMP to maintain natural topography and to do that I need flexibility in the lot of side um no if you so if you decide to use that BMP then your incentive is that you can choose your lot size not have to be restricted to the lot size in the now you how you said it is probably true too right in order to maintain enough of the natural topography you probably are going to have to shrink your lot sizes right so they're somewhat actually Rel I didn't say it well yeah yes in this and if it's the same as the conservation maybe you've run into it before there's never been any questions that lot size includes width depth and area we don't have a requirement for depth in our code it's only lot width and lot area Okay so that is what minimum lot size is defined as any other questions on flexible lot sizes all right then flexible building setbacks um developer May identify the preferred minimum building setbacks for any primary or secondary structure within the development those minimum setbacks must be develop U identified on the specific plans and not some things um in the second sentence so same thing they get to pick their setbacks for primary structure that is your house right and secondary structure be the sheds sh setbacks uh would that be inclusive of property lines as well the setback is determined off of the property line right so they're going to pick their property line for their lot and then they're going to say okay people can build their structures within this footprint because I have a typically a front yard setback of 20 feet for a regular zoning classification they said I'm going to have a 15ot setback I'm referring to property lines that have uh other ownership other than the developing oh yes same thing yeah so for the entire development as a whole they would pick it and then for the interior Lots as well so you could have a zero setback on the property line next to an adjacent owner that's not related to the development in theory you could however you still have other code requirements you have to comply with like your lands buffer as because there's certain landscape buffer requirements for depending on what zone classification you're adjacent to for your type of development so you're still going to have to comply with the other portions of the code but this allows that flexibility and the the fire department has some say in what the separation between structures is so you you not ever really get to zero you'd have to you know of course make fire separation requirements but I get what you're saying about the exterior and maybe that's something that the committee would want to have a motion on that for residential developments um the setex are limited to the Lots themselves and for because there's commercial and Industrial developments right so the exterior lot lines are their only setback requirements personally I think the setbacks on the perimeter should be what is normal in any setback provision and in residential lives you know I wouldn't want to be an owner of a subdivision going in that's going to do lid and have an apartment three-story apartment complex on my property line in my backyard I mean I don't think anybody would want that um so I would think that the current setbacks on you know property lines to owners ship different owners should be maintained we have a question am I am I missing something with that point or somebody correct me if I'm wrong name Eric Turner with kimley horn and so with the uh setbacks is the intent for it to be more of like a front setback and not necessarily the side setbacks in terms of like you want to be able to use the back half of the development for preservation but then you're putting say like your home so it's more of like a town home or more of like a um Urban looking development where you've got the sidewalk and then you've got the building on it but the intent is not necessarily thinking as much about what's going on with your neighbors I guess more of a question in terms of what the intent was with it we didn't have a restriction on which setbacks that would be flexible we were leaving that up to the developer to choose okay we have Bill Wendy and John JY so on some parcels maybe it's not just an apartment complex smack up against the thing it's something like a hotel or something where they need to have a smaller setback on one side or somewhere else so that they can preser ve more land so I don't know that necessarily this allows people to smack up against the other property lines right we don't have a minimum in there but maybe that the committee would like to do is put a minimum setback they can't go under for certain types we were trying to we were developing the standards in here to not be overburdensome with the restrictions we put in um so but if the committee thinks a five foot setback all around for property boundaries is sufficient for residential and then commercial however is you go with the standard typical setbacks and you don't get that incentive that is up to you um Bill did you finish your comments because Wendy and Jessica so I'm just having flashbacks to um the months and months of trees and you know and we talked about tree buffers and you know in all the tree preservation area and we ask lots of questions and I would regularly say everything about this is liid and here we are and we're talking about buffers and so I I want to caution us to not set up two parallel sets of codes you know it like do they follow these rules do they follow the other rules do they have to follow all the rules are we even if we're reducing barriers are we adding kind of more layers of complexity and so like that's why I was asking back when we were talking about trees like let's just set the buffer at what it's going to be and um and I guess I would I would go there now and like yeah we want 20 foot buffers we want 50 foot buffers whatever like pick a number um and it and it applies to everybody I don't I don't like I don't like this flexible setback thing I understand it within the development lot sizes and things like that but um but yeah I think the entire development needs to follow the code that everybody has to follow and it should be big so just on the tree thing anything that's going to be used as tree preservation area we're looking for at least 30 feet wide right but you don't necessarily have to use that exterior buffer as your tree preservation area a lot of times people do because it's the easiest thing to do um and none of this would get you out of how much tree preservation you have to do um but we certainly could word it so that the perimeter buffers whatever they may be required for that development and it's say it's complicated but the the landscape buffer is depending on if you're a residential use adjacent to a commercial use residential next to residential right like that with is varies depending on the two uses so we could put in here that exterior perimeter buffers aren't flexible or setbacks aren't flexible but the other lot setbacks are if that's preferable put name down John putting Is So currently in rural B on Springs out neighbors can't build anything 50 ft off the fence line okay so within 50 ft set I would think that is reasonable um to put in here is your parameter or your perimeter property lines on a on a on a lid project I think that would be a minimum so that is based on the zoning right so if they're not changing the zoning then then then they keep that perimeter buffer whatever that is that's one way we could do it right because the buffer that or the setback you're talking about is different if you're are four so let's do this I make motion the perimeter buffers on lid developments should follow the current zoning that it's applicable to I said it I have a question the discussion on the motion and the um you are referring to that buffer that is around the entire development not the internal corre thank you setb perimeter setb just triple check um discussion Bliss my question is for I think Phil if you have that 50 foot buffer and you're trying to make an L apartment complex have you not and there are height restrictions have you not restricted the density with the 50ft buffer versus a 30 foot buff I don't know I need to defer to some I don't know about this one I mean I I don't know why you would try to take that away if they're offering it as an incentive but I don't know I think that in my opinion there has been a lot of thought that have gone into the compatibility buffers and Matrix that exists today and that it contemplates buffers based on housing type and density so even if you were to use a flexible housing type it's contemplated in the code I don't know that we really need to I agree we should not modify the perimeter buffer standards I think that's a good change because then you have that comfort for adjacent owners will it in some way limit your footprint maybe but also the rest of the regulations will go through allow you to have some storm water in those buffers that you didn't so you're ging back that density and I think it's a balance overall that's correct so what I'm hearing is that the perimeter boundar this the perimeter setbacks will remain the same as within the current zoning classification as it's already designated however if we are having individual Lots within a subdivision whether that be a commercial industrial or residential subdivision those interior Lots setbacks can be flexible yes okay so I want to make sure that we're all aware that means that a one lot industrial parcel that wants to come in to develop they cannot have flexible setbacks same thing with the commercial so McDonald's comes in they will not have flexible setbacks as long as we're on the same page okay I see John you still have your you have an additional and suzan discussion and then Bliss I'm going to give this another whal um because I've organized my thoughts a little better so referring to the industrial again it's my understanding that industrial one I I don't disagree with what you both that that's like hands down okay that's not what I'm talking about industrial one can be applied for industrial two and here in lies the problem industrial two is open-ended zoning so we're we the vote from what I grasp allowed industrial to increase their floor space by 10% an industrial to can be a rocket launch a cement plant a chemical plant um a fuel terminal and and any other array of things the point in low impact development is to help the environment am I missing something that we would allow industrial 2 to increase its floor space and who's to say how big that would be so industrial one could apply for industrial 2 and industrial 2 is completely open so I think you can throw out what's environmental from low impact development from increasing the floor space am I wrong in this assumption here I mean I I guess as proposed if that development picked four site design bmps and two storm water bmps um then they could potentially be eligible for sensity or intensity bonuses um just like any any other development right but they would have to do the things that were required in order to get that so in theory you're the the net benefit is good because you're doing all the things that are required to get the incentives certainly it's Up For Debate if you know which land Ed categories or which zoning categories you want to include I think this just allows a developer to explore that doesn't certainly doesn't require them to do that and and would industrial understand I understand it's optional but since I live in Orman Beach and we're the ones basing the fuel terminal right now and I2 is open-ended to everything I just named and a lot more low impact development would be the least of my concerns with all of these items increasing their floor space by 10% so I think the thing to do would be if if you don't want to include industrial is to make a motion that says we take industrial out of the mix well I'm not sure about industrial one I'm suggesting industrial two because industrial 2 is open-ended but industrial one can become industrial too Clay is gone but this is my understanding of the situation so why would we want to increase 10% for space of any of these and while this may sound far-fetched it's really not um we're dealing with this now so what we would have to do if you were to make a motion is in the future land use element um it's speaking to the underlying land use which is industrial regardless if it's i1 or I2 or I3 right so would have to have a restriction Within Chapter 72 the land planning code whether that be in chapter um the zoning ordinance I would presume um to state that I2 zoning does not it's not eligible for yeah yeah I'll make that motion the I to zoning is not eligible for I uh L Point order I got a motion on the oh I'm sorry yeah and uh it's been seconded and we just totally flopped so thank you John sorry and we had I was trying to keep track of the que of folks to speak and I will ask BL Don Jack in that order is it to the motion that is on the floor yes thank you um I'm for the motion I just needed clarification I understood the motion but then we started talking about the 50 ft so if you could clarify the 50 ft for me I'll be good so I think that the 50 ft was just brought up because it was an example it was an example an example it's just the regular whatever the zoning classification SE effects are now that's what theor SE effects would stay that's all I I thought we voted on that we didn't we didn't was John just okay brought me back to reality Donna and I I think I've lost track too because my comment was to Suzanne's concern so should I make it or not okay I'll save it State your motion yeah that uh the current flexible building setbacks be that that is the current zoning or current code setbacks of the parameter of that project we have second I think we had a discussion question from Jackson no I'm back to this okay all right are we ready yeah okay all those in favor of keeping the perimeter setbacks per zoning any oppos unanimous thank you I'm sorry I I had written down it pass and I I do want to jump in on the potential new motion um oh okay so to try and get this moving I made a motion that I2 zoning just the zoning not the land use I2 zoning is not eligible for liid not eligible for liid all of the L or not eligible for floor area ratio increase do you see that I'm listening to Suzanne I made the motion it's not eligible period what we were trying to discern could do an Li development but one of the incentives isn't additional intensity right would you not would you want to say they can't do an liid development at all and get any incentives or is it really just the intensity that is that issue that's important in The Matrix yeah I might not have understood the conversation but my motion was just to eliminate I zoning does anybody want to Second this motion as it is okay I'm gonna second so no l at all for for I2 I'm asking I guess I'm I'm asking a question of discussion that's what on that okay so where this started was the flexibility in the building setb backs and in the incentive of the floor floor area correct floor ratio right for I2 specifically why right okay so that seemed to me a discussion very worth having I don't we want to get rid of everything else that that I mean and and does this not set us up for potential legal problem I allowing I don't know I'm trying to answer I I would say that I brought it up on the floor expansion yeah yeah for the 10% because if you're looking at a Warehouse going 10% larger but saving I get that but I don't get it on all these other things because the low impact development environmental impact becomes null and void if you increased it can become null and void quite quickly if you increase the chemical plant by 10% or or any of these other items and I only say this because I2 is completely open-ended zoning so so I'm not changing my motion okay I I'm totally good if it falls flat but the way I was understanding that discussion went well beyond floor area ratio so that's why my motion is what it is Jack had a comment then Wendy then Donna then Jessica prior to our vote discussion yeah I I'm I'm a hard no against that motion I you know we want Li IDE and we want it in industrial as well as residential in these other places I don't I think that the 10% growth on floor plan on Industrial is frankly I don't even know that's an enticement um I think it's pretty minor and I think we don't want to exclude industrial of all things I think it needs to be part of the package of liid and I think it's the other benefits that we get here on taking this action is far better than it than the potential incentive of a 10% floor plan I I just don't think the 10% increase is adequate so I think I think which which I had the original motion of going from five to 10 really to try to entice folks to get into it I think that's really where we ought to be and and I really don't think it's relative to the to cement plants and all that I think you know you know 10% on a warehouse is insignificant in comparison to taking on a lot of these liid programs as I see it you um Wendy Donna Jessica I would Echo what Jack just said that um I definitely don't see the I mean I would I would focus this motion on just the 10% increase for the this what I'm calling heavy industrial um I've just been Googling green roofs on distribution centers and looking at the images that pop up and they're really cool and even Bliss is like oh neat and um and so you know I never say anything to you but you know we we we have a great opportunity here to try to get some of our manufacturers and distribution centers um you know to do some really cool and interesting things on top of their buildings around their buildings I would hate to see us kind of disincentivize them from playing along but I I'm totally in agreement with Suzanne that you know when we're talking about the heavy heavy polluters the the heavy industrial cement plants fuel terminals Etc um I mean they're not going to play this game anyway I can't see them doing it and um and if we want to have language that excludes the um the 10% um floor Ratio or whatever I think that um you that that would be fine but I I wouldn't want the general motion no l is applicable I don't want to cut off um Donna and Jessica at all but I'm almost to the point of saying let's call a vote because of the the comments do okay please do that because I live in the same area where Suzanne does and I understand her concern and motivation but I think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water um which I think um we are more inclined to do when when we're looking at one example and making a policy based on just that one example I don't I don't think that's good public policy Jessica and my only only comment is that if it is for the heavy industrial what we call Smoke Stack type uses Banning an entire zoning District that zoning District allows for distri distribution type uses not just the heavier uses as you go up it includes the Lesser industrial and heavier so I just want to say if I had made the motion I would not have made the motion I would have made it on I2 only and on the floor that's what I was going to say I just want to be clear about that and I didn't point out I understand it's one thing I I named the ones I could think of it's because it's open ended so to increase the floor by 10% is is can be a lot so let's let's vote on the motion that was to eliminate industrial from any of the incentives for Li just I2 I'm sorry just I2 um no liid incentives at all any none for I2 all those in favor all those oppos okay so that is not now we have a couple minutes left you one could move for the I2 no floor space l ratio I'm going to make a motion to remove the I2 on the floor space for the increase of the 10% all second any discussion all those in favor oppose okay the motion okay I was oh fails any other we need to count said we need to count well she she got it okay yeah thank you and we are we have two minutes left for our meeting um Bill you we have to go yeah exactly where where where are we in the process so we have we we were gonna yeah we were going to talk about each of the incentives still and then we were G to talk about each of the vmps still so it's it's another meeting another meeting yeah but but didn't we tell the Council it would be done today well I I I just want to say everybody's been a superhero today and um before before we adjourn I want to thank Suzanne for her time on the on the committee since I guess this is your last meeting so thank you for your your inputs and Jessica co-chair wishes to say something second to Suzanne of course um but I wanted to tongue and cheek say the comp plan and the ordinance we got through yes and that's all they have to adopt right so um so I what I what I think is going to happen is for our next meeting then we'll have organizational meeting in the beginning where we um select a chair select a vice chair talk about our meeting dates and then have the rest of the meeting devoted to finishing this Council thank you I also wanted to say that the manual is really the manual the manual is really instructive and awesome I thought it was a very good effort no no I'll do um we'll we'll do new member orientation separate from this meeting uh so they'll get all that instructions outside of the meeting and then the new members will just be here ready to go interest