##VIDEO ID:ieP9NmdBdmk## Mr Fitz Simmons Mr HCK Miss Jameson Mr Dono Mr lights Mr mberg here miss morisy see her yet Mr seret here and Miss Whit so we do have a quorum I forgot I know I was doing something wrong thank you has everyone had the opportunity to read the November 6 minutes that I just somehow got rid of evaporated my computer yes no okay does anyone 11 I'm looking for it again because I decided to go paperless today obviously that didn't work well does anyone have um any so someone like to make a motion to approve or does anyone have modifications to those Meeting those minutes I found December 4th too late this time sily but you've got a crack at December so uh motion made by John hobl seconded by Bill lights any discussion all those in favor of approving the November minutes say I any opposed oh who's there oh we need if she's uh yeah if Bliss is gonna be online we need to allow her okay so um let's take a pause in the vote on the minutes I guess and would anyone like to make um would like to move that Bliss be allowed to participate remotely any second okay the motion made by Donna brosmer seconded by Tyler melberg to allow Bliss Jameson to participate remotely any discussion all those in favor say I any opposed okay we will return then to the motion that was on the floor about the November six minutes that I still can't find and uh there was no discussion uh we were at the vote all those in favor all those any any opposed okay the November minutes are approved let's move on to the December minutes um M chair I did find two typos on page four that I would like to fix when we finalize these minutes would you like to call those out it's on page four line 32 there's the word close and it should be closed and then there's the word even and it should be event okay and I had a few things on the I did uh I felt that the sentence lines 20 through 23 was a little bit which page ma'am uh page page two excuse me I have a suggested rewrite that it reads Cher Lamers noted The increased rainfall patterns and flooding being attributed to new development though flooding is most likely multifactorial uh she added that she would like more voices on the data to help determine if it is strict enough it being the the boring requirements um if the increasing rainfall pattern continues and it just count sounded like that what was being attributed was awkward so I would just suggest a change that I can email over Cher lammer noted that flooding is being attributed to new development without recognizing increased rainfall patterns and that flooding is likely multifactorial she said she would like more sources or input on the data to help determine if given a continued increased rainfall pattern it is strict enough that at least was what I intended to say um so I don't know if that's legal to to make a change [Music] um and on page four line 34 uh toward the end the right margin in the even of it should be event maybe that's the one that Ginger said and that's all I had anybody else have anything okay so would someone like to move that amended minutes be approved second so we have motion made by John gono seconded by Tyler mberg any discussion all those in favor eyes I I any opposed thank you the minutes are approved as amended um something has happened here uh next we have old business an update from Ginger about liid and storm water management um Clay's gonna take it he just got out of agenda conference and so some of the scheduling um just got changed I I did want to point out uh two things that are coming up though on Thursday is our first council meeting of the Year Council will be doing their goal setting at that meeting that might be of interest and then next Tuesday the 14th council's having their special meeting regarding the moratorium so just wanted to throw that out there and then clay can give us the update on our specific ordinances and dates good afternoon um in regards to the storm water and liid ordinances as you all are aware the liid ordinance has been uh blessed by this group sent forward to the planning and Land Development regulation commission they have made uh motion and recommendation that's ready and um actually advertised for the fe uh January 21st meeting given that the storm water standards that y all have uh also approved are going to be going to the planning and Land Development regulation commission next Thursday January 16th the uh manager would like to take both of those proposed ordinances at the same time time to the council rather than trying to split that conversation up over two separate meetings so right now we're looking to see if it could possibly go to the first meeting in February um we would also tie that in what's that second meeting of February well we're seeing if we can get it on for the first but we're there's right now no promise as to what it is it will be going the both of those items will be in February but if we can get it in there we will correct thank you very much oh okay so one more time as I convoluted confused everybody and created Havoc amongst the board it's easy to do right now yes what was originally advertised for a January 21st for the elid that will be taken off the agenda and will be partnered with the storm water standards we hope to get it in there as quickly as possible the latest would be the second meeting in February okay great so Li will not be on the January 21st County council meeting we are also aware that this group is its time and appropriate for all to provide the annual report and your 2025 go e e e e e e e e e f excuse me I can't hear anything this is Don with the city of delanta I can't hear anything either but I heard you okay well I just heard okay well I hear you but yeah I thought I had a problem on my hands I'm glad I'm glad to see somebody else couldn't hear all right should be good can you hear us now yes thank you yes okay yes thank and Donald I think we heard you you are with the city of Delan yes okay thank you sir thank you welcome so I don't know at what point you lost the ability to hear us but we went over the draft annual plan made two date Corrections in it and voted to approve it and we were moving on now to our work plan Ginger did you have something okay we're moving on to the work plan which is on the the screen now [Music] um and I might note just one Tyler requested quite strongly and we agreed that this meeting given time we would talk about our number three priority there because there was something time sensitive about that that you will share with us today I hope um but other than that this how do we how do we so um just so everyone knows the way these priorities are ranked here is we received your priority rankings and Samantha did a snazzy spread sheet to take the average and this was basically how everything averaged out um the issue of the the the number three um I you know we will talk about that some today that's on the end of our agenda today I think um that discussion May determine whether this item is done in off of here or if it actually becomes a priority so I mean there may be some value in um having that discussion first and then deciding if there's more to talk about and it needs to be on the list I don't know how you want to proceed on that I am I allowed to oine on that I think that would be a good idea um because everything else is stuff that we've have been discussing or plann to discuss before um so shall we move on in the agenda to the reclaimed water irrigation Landscaping yeah and I mean if you'd like I can explain what my reasoning for this discussion is and I would just or maybe Ginger wit is preface before you kick it off Tyler it we were all sent links to comp plan to LDC on this item and to chapter 50 minimum standards to review so I hope we got a chance to do that and it's my understanding we have staff in the room to respond to questions and we have the land on the yeah and again just real quick before we get started um we had invited our U water resources and utilities folks to this meeting unfortunately there's some illness um so we don't have anyone from water resources and utilities so if there are questions that are related to that we'll probably have to just note them down and and come back with answers um but Mr Mr kbeer is here from um engineering so too big to hide but I Haven seen you and and Ben Bartlett our Public Works director unfortunately had a conflict in scheduling he actually has three different meetings he's trying to be at at the same time it's not practical no we have no clones so in my conversations with community members and listening to speakers at Council meetings city of D land L County mostly I've heard a lot of conversations that there are flooding problems I'm an echo sorry yeah so we have flooding problems that are in basins where we are pumping substantial amounts of reclaimed water into ponds for storage and one of the things that I have limited knowledge on the practice of I'm not an operator of this and I don't deal with utility permitting at this scale for municipalities something that I'm hoping that I'm glad to see that Don is on the line I'm hoping Michelle can also help inform us um I think we need to have conversation about it we need to actually research a little bit ourselves into the topic of is pumping water within our basins contributing to our flooding problem and I don't have enough information to have an informed position I'm pretty ignorant on this to be perfectly blunt in terms of scale and and that was also a question or a statement by chair Mills of the PDR see about that uh clay just one quick bit of clarification before coming in here I was able to talk with both Tad and Ben Bartlett and so Tad can correct whatever I'm about to say is if I misspeak right now in belush County you have multiple utilities and some have reclaimed that can be utilized for irrigation some do not most of them are trending towards that because they see that as an alternative water supply which gets some good points with St John's river Water Management District and it's just a good practice we in Valia County within our utilities do not require storage of reclaim in storm water ponds we don't want to do that what we have are tanks and Rapid infiltration basins so from a county perspective in what in regards to our regulations first and foremost chapter 72 in regards to subdivis Visions we don't require connection to reclaim in our subdivision standards because some of our projects are not in our own utilities uh a lot of our utilities serve like DeBerry oakill those types of areas so where our reclaimed standards are are in chapter 122 of the code which is our utilities and that's where it's a proximity requirement and capacity requir environment so if you were within the appropriate distance of our reclaim lines and we had the capacity and you're coming in with a project that would benefit from using reclaim we require you to connect so right now uh the concern about Luchia County Utilities potentially doing this it is not there just want to make sure everybody understood from our perspective what we as a governmental body can control we do not require that practice um in regards to the trail or Victoria trails and I was it was explained to me and again I'm glad our representative from Dand is here is that that was an augmentation of their storm water so if the ponds drop below a certain level and they need it for irrigation there's a meter on the reclaim and the HOA has to pay for the reclaim to basically rise the raise the level of the Lakes so that they can use it for irrigation if the lakes are at a you know sufficient level that valve is closed and no water is Flowing so just wanted to make sure we had kind of a clear understanding going forward what I was going to add is the amount of volume of water that we get from a rain event versus the amount of volumes that I've heard discussed are vastly different numbers for the sizes of area that we're dealing with the information I have is that there's 200 million gallons that got pumped into the development a 90day period that's one of the claims that I was told but that's over 100 acres of land and that represents actually very little well right and and these are the types of things I I'm being told this is what's happening I don't necessarily think that this is contributing the same level of issue as what we're being told it is but I do think that if we just ignore the conversation on it that then it allows these topics to be something that are discussed next week as justification for a moratorium rather than there being information with light put onto it and so I don't I think together as a team especially you know with Don able to help us I think that there's a lot of information that we can bring forward for conversation today that can go to Council next week that's the timeliness element is I know that there's going to be a lot of conversations where a lot of information has put forward and I think we have a responsibility to do a little bit of fact finding to help counsel with their very difficult task next week Ginger and then I love to say something my comment isn't urgent if you would prefer to go first mine may be derailing I'll try for it not to be yesterday at the legislative delegation meeting the cities spoke first and almost all of them cited flooding is a huge issue for them and and it was part of their requests for funding things to deal with flooding so it is a Hot Topic and we we know just from our Ive experience here we know that a lot of the development that's being cited by regular citizens as the cause of flooding we know that much of that development is taking place in cities rather than rather than the county I'm not going to get into how you do a moratorium or you don't do a moratorium but as I went through the reading the pread for Tyler's work here and thank you for bringing this up and also read a little bit about benan Bay in New Smyrna where they've extended the moratorium apparently according to press reporting I have no other Insight than than press reporting um they're saying either the the design of the storm water Pond there was deficient or the maintenance by the homeowners association is deficient and as I went through the chapter 72 and the chapter as I went through all of that I kept running up against the same thing over and over again setting aside increases in rainfall and Rising water tables setting that very important factor aside I kept running into an enforcement question and I think that's also something that that needs to be put out there we don't like to pay for enforcement but um we may need to and I all all I'm just one lay person's observations like with what Tyler is heard speaking Ginger you wanted to make a point yeah just maybe a little context and so you know a lot of the background material that you were provided was um related to uh reclaimed infrastructure and and the County's goals around uh reclaim and I just wanted to provide some background on that and and you probably noticed when you were looking at something some of these are really old documents right like for decades we've been promoting this beneficial reuse of Wastewater and um you know the the county and the cities are in a position where um particularly in our spring sheds Blue Spring is the the best example um you know we're under regulatory requirement to increase the flow of Blue Spring and the way to do that is to find alternative sources of portable water so that we withdraw less from the spring shed and so the county and the five municipalities that are within um the the vucha blue springshed have to find other ways to meet the water needs and so one of those other ways is an $80 million new water plant outside of the spring shed um one of the ways and the way that the county and the cities have been really relying on for the last couple of decades is to um reduce Reliance on portable water for irrigation by using reuse and of course you know when you think about like one water you think the concept of one water right like reuse water shouldn't be considered waste it should be considered a resource and so um we've been moving we and the cities have been moving um toward as much as possible getting the Wastewater res you know the the water that's coming at the tail end of the Wastewater Plant back into the community beneficially and so um I just wanted to provide that as a um as a little background to reuse Is Not a Bad Thing reuse is critical to the permitting of wastewater treatment plants to the the consumptive use permit and to the ability to have folks have clean drinking water by not using that clean drinking water in the outdoor environment right so a as the committee is thinking about you know how do we deal with the ReUse right is it appropriate to require developers which you know I think clay answered that we don't actually do this you know require developers to hold it in ponds or something um I I don't want us to get down the path of reuse being a bad thing um reuse is is a good thing and um at least um in in our case you know that's Advanced wastewater treatment level reuse coming out of those pipes and and you know Mike and his team and water resources and utilities have done an amazing job of getting lots of grant funding to upgrade those plants so that the water coming out the end is as low in nutrients as possible so usually about 98% removal of the of the nutrients you know know properly operated plant of the N exactly correct yeah thank you Ginger and and and just as an aside reclaim is used even for drinking water in Singapore and on board spacecrafts it's and if we clean it up enough and use it for irrigation we don't have to put it into our water bodies to pollute anyway Donna e hey I'm not sure if you guys could hear me but I lost audio again from you guys oh sorry do I need to repeat yeah do I need to repeat that okay right shortened shortened version um there are many reasons for flooding not just the one or two that have been broadly blamed and to the extent that we are able to distinguish what some of those are to um inform the County Council I think I think we're doing a good job I'm gonna throw this and go to Wendy in a second but I I I want to throw this to Tad a little bit I started making precisely that list for my letter to the council and and uh I don't know if it's a complete list this group might come up with a really complete list but on the agenda item for Tuesday there is a notation that there's a staff report on things that staff is doing I would imagine that staff is trying to identify I mean I I have a feeling that the flooding is going to turn out to be site specific in many cases rather than a universal uh cause of the flooding and so each remedy will be a site specific remedy I don't know if it's in our purview or ability to go geographically identify all that but we can certainly ask if that's going to happen and Clay's grinning so I'm I don't know if Clay's grinning because he's gonna he's B thank you so um so I too have been um sort of sucked into this conversation with Mr Mills and others in the Taylor Road um Jackson Woods area and having previously been on the Victoria Park HOA board and the Victoria Park Community Council and just to be clear it's the community council that manages the irrigation and the storm water system not the HOA everybody always just says HOA is a sort of a blanket phrase but that's it's not the HOA it's the community council nonetheless um in 2022 I did a deep dive into our uses of reclaimed water across the neighborhood I have all of the data in a multi- sheet workbook um the actual numbers of what Victoria Trails which is the section of concern for the Taylor Road and Jackson Woods um residents who are chronically flooded now the range that Victoria Trails purchased in reclaimed water goes from 59 million to about 130 million gallons a year a year um most of those purchases happen in March April and May May when we are in the sort of warming and dry season um less purchases later on as we're going into the rainy season um I appreciate Tyler's Insight that these volumes why they while they might might sound like large numbers are generally consequential inconsequential compared to volumes of rainfall um nonetheless there is a perception from those neighbors that that is a problem um as I've pondered this some more because again I've been hearing this for about a year as well and I'm trying to kind of wrap my head around this I don't know that reclaimed water I don't know that the source of the water matters um if irrigation is happening as it is happening in all of the new developments new developments are designed with Landscapes that need to be irrigated doesn't matter if you're pumping potable water I mean it matters in a conservation sense but in terms of total volume I don't think it matters if you're pumping potable ground water nonpotable surficial aquifer you know shallow well water reclaimed water the fact that the IR the fact that the landscape requires irrigation means that more water is being brought into to that local than previous unless it was in an agricultural system which also had irrigation and you know and so maybe it's you know six one way half dozen the other but it doesn't matter that it's reclaimed in the Victoria tra and Victoria Park as a whole system where they're actually holding the reclaimed water in ponds yeah that's happening um in Victoria Trails the one and only Pond where that water is held is not near the Jackson Woods area it is you know a good I don't know like tenth of a mile away and I don't think that the groundwater flows north there I think it generally flows to the South and the West I'm looking at Tyler for validation on that um and so so like where they're holding the reclaimed water there is not a source of flooding for them the ground saturation is what you're talking about with more water yeah um so you know again being site specific that is a closed I'm going to say semi closed Basin it's not entirely closed but we're talking about it we've been talking about it for four years as if it's a closed Basin um and some very very smart and highly um revered Engineers have you know identified it as a closed Basin we do see we saw this past year that there is a there is an overflow of that Basin that comes out by way of Freedom Elementary and ends up at Blue Lake and you know and Westminster Woods I mean it's not a totally closed Basin um it's just that it is it is there is a confining layer that holds the water there is adding 50 to 130 million gallons a year to that closed Basin G to contribute to all the flooding I don't think so would but I think a bigger question is should we as a county be looking more at landscape solutions that require less irrigation regardless of the source you know so our water-wise irrigation our our native plants our you know things that are embedded in low impact development I mean whatever language you want to use you know to not have to irrigate a landscape after it is established is really really should be the goal and again there's enforcement and there's maintenance you know and HOA takes over a neighborhood and they're like oh we have to continue irrigating because we've always irrigated well maybe you don't need to and maybe the HOA needs to go back in and shut off their common area irrigation once those Landscapes are mature and so so there's there's a lot of things here but I you know I've I've come kind of back back to where I originally was to believe it isn't even in the Taylor Road you know Victoria Trails area the input of reclaimed water is not the problem I think we're on the same page there it it's not the problem even in that particular site so um and and if we're going to have irrigation it ought to be reclaimed if it's available and accessible because that is better than using potable water there might be some places where we want to use surficial groundwater if it's available to reduce phosphorus inputs yes it's true the nitrogen gets mitigated what one of the things I'm going to go off and talk about nutrients for just a minute if you'll uh if you'll allow me um one of the things we see happening in the Victoria Park ponds is that the reclaimed water gets gets brought in gets stored it comes in with minimal nitrogen but it comes with lots of phosphorus the phosphorus then stimulates cyanobacterial blooms which are nitrogen fixers and so the night so they create they pull nitrogen out of the atmosphere and put more nitrogen into the ponds than what arrived from the city and so you know so you so we end up with these like green peas suit ponds that are just disgusting that absolutely so um so that's a completely different issue but um but I guess having lived in Victoria Park and I don't live there anymore for a number of reasons including learning too much about this is um is that I don't think and and this kind of what clay was saying a minute ago I don't think storing reclaimed water inside of these neighborhoods is is a good solution and I'm glad that that hasn't become a a sort of Norm so um those are my insights on it having been an Insider on this particular location thank you Wendy Donna then Jessica then John uh then I was Bill ahead of John or okay then bill then John Donna Jessica bill John thank you public uh I'm approaching the site specific issue a little differently um just based on the work I've done with uh municipalities both here in Colorado and um and yesterday at yesterday's ation meeting um yes we heard a bunch of cities talk about this issue but I think um Senator leak uh kind of zeroed in on one of the problems and that was in particular he was speaking about Daytona but I know it applies to Holly Hill as well where their own infrastructure has not been upgraded and updated and In fairness to this entire discussion that has to be a factor it has to be factored in and the municipalities need to accept their measure of responsibility for for fixing the problem too it's not entirely on water providers and water users I was going to say in the the context that we're in today where I think there's kind there's almost two discussions that's happening right there's in general what updates to the Land Development code or utility code do we see as important um and what can we do to address I'm going to say storm preparedness right because I think a lot of the flooding and there is some rainy day water retention concerns that have been brought up um sunny day I think I said rainy day but the focus has been after storms what the result has been and so I think that if we as we go through this discussion if we say in general you know here's some water-wise irrigation standards um and also maybe it would be a good idea to implement a rule that you know you can't gate 7 days before a noce storm or something like that like maybe if we can separate those out in terms of how we're approaching things so this is I'm I'm very in favor of reuse and um non-potable forms of irrigation but just I'm ignorant so to get an order of magnitude what is 100 million gallons a year on that acreage versus 54 Ines a year that we get through a rainfall like is it 100 Ines and then are we taking that water from the flen oer and putting it into a surficial oer unnaturally so those two questions second question again I I missed it I'm sorry are we taking the water from a Floridan AER that is from way deep and has a confining layer and we're putting it onto a surficial aquifer the reclaim you're talking about yes any non well even pable so when you irrigate I think most of the portable water wells um that are used for Supply are um not the Deep aquifer right because that water takes a lot more treatment right so we're talking about surficial aquifer water that goes to the water plant to be treated to be pable then it goes through your house your body whatever comes back to the Wastewater Plant and gets treated and then back out through reuse so that's not like deep aquafer water being moved now we do um you some places do deep well injection of that reuse water um we use Rapid infiltration basins and the in the ReUse Network um but but there are of course um issues with sending that water deep into the aquifer as well because you know Pharm pH ceuticals and nutrients and that sort of thing but yeah we're not moving it from one aquafer to the other that I'm aware okay and just one quick point about the pable water source um if this was 20 or so years ago we would be having the exact opposite conversation we're having right now it wouldn't be too much water it was not enough water and we had ponds disappearing um we had Lakes disappearing so again it's all part of the cycle that we're facing um I can tell you this much when a utility provider goes for a consumptive use permit St John's is protecting the Floridan aquifer to the maximum extent to the point in a real world example Orman Beach was coming up for its uh consumptive use permit in the early 2000s um they were looking out west of 95 they were able to successfully get a grant from St John's to use lower quality uh surficial aquifers east of I95 by converting from lime softening as their method of treatment to reverse osmosis so what you're seeing is there's a very distinctive and direct effort by the state regulatory and Regional Regulatory Agencies to not go after the higher quality more value valuable aquifer such as the Florida and aquifer and and and there's an incentive for uh utility providers to have better technology to improve the Lesser Quality Water the order of magnitude well well Tyler is working through mouth and his head I I got I got that answer so one one inch of rain is per acre equals 27,000 gallons of water so multiply that by 100 2.7 million on 100 acres for one inch of rain one inch of rain equals 27,000 gallons per acre that's if you were on 100 acres it's 2 point 7 million gallons for one inch um that section is probably I mean the whole Victoria Park is is almost 2,000 acres and this is a quarter but it's really it's it's less than a quarter because it's chopped up um it's probably 250 to 300 acres but the other way to look at it is the reclaimed plus storm water that's being distributed two times a week to homeowners their their clocks are set for it to deliver a quarter of an inch of irrigation to their lawns twice a week so that would be 26 Ines of irrigation that The Lawns are being supplemented with twice just yeah yeah yeah just The Lawns not the entire acreage of the development and so is an additional 26 inches you know and we we have rain sensors but they never work and so you know it irrigates in the rain and stuff like that so um yeah it's it's an additional 20 or so inches a year onto the lawns million 540 5 250 Acres would be 6.8 million gallons per inch of rain so what did you say Tyler 5.4 million per inch of rain times 54 so 367 million is what normally falls out of the sky for that for that neighborhood versus 59 million coming in unreclaimed 59 to3 yeah third to a fifth so on the year with 130 million gallons if it is 250 Acres of area that would represent about 19 in of additional effective rainfall so if I can jump in one of the things that I did as research in the last month is I pulled all of the drinking well permit records for this particular base and it took all of like two hours to do that it sounds really impressive and when a well is drilled they break it into 20ft segments and they identify the material type so in this area there is an extremely consistent 20 to 50ft thick clay layer that starts somewhere around 40 to 60 feet below grade so basically what we have is we have a giant bathtub that has a bunch of sand in it and and that sand is able to drain only a little bit at a time so when we fill up that bathtub the groundwater comes above the ground and we have a lake and so the flooding that we're having is a lake to me one of the obvious answers to this could be well if we're adding 19 inches over that area that actually could be contributing that that is about a third of our annual rainfall maybe we stop pumping water from below that layer to above that layer in areas that are flooding and we require that if you're going to have irrigation it be from a groundwater aquifer within you know the top X feet of grade above any confining layer right that that's my opinion STM water ponds those areas are all wet ponds so you have to keep them a certain elevation to avoid having an unsafe storm water Pond we didn't really get into it St water design too much but you have a wet Pond you have to keep at least a four to one slope for purposes in case somebody falls into the pond they can be reasonably climb even with a NE condition or a health condition or something along those lines to get out red design those wet ponds such that they break from that 4 to1 slope to a 2 to1 slope uh usually about 2 feet below the seasonal high elevation and if they drop below that now a two one slow and now it's no longer sa while it is somewhat of a secondary condition you do have that issue and they are wet bonds and the F gles if you um when you're bring in the reclaim water it's just generally to supplement that you're people are going to go ahead and water their bonds unless you're talking about a long watering restriction the water's going to used whether three claims any point whether three claims protable water's going to get added unless you tell them or force them to stop watering so um those gallons are going to be added to that Basin the one required no [Music] no but there aren't too many subdivisions that wants fenes on their bonds they're usually looking at as an amenity it's usually partially or adjacent to uh Lots or Community areas in the first place this kind of gets into groundwater fluctuates we had a really long and complex discussion a few months ago where Tad and I and uh our Geotech engineer friend uh I'll try to explain that it is uh an exact science where we have to use a lot of judgment on how we set a seasonal high elevation part of the problem is you have a lot of existing infrastructure that's been designed around our current Concepts and in order for us to fix quote unquote what may be perceived as problems with those existing systems would require a level of reconstruction or redesign of how they are built so that they can operate under the new quote unquote design concept so Tad's not wrong we can't just let the pond levels drop that's the reason that they're f filling them I somewhat have a disagreement that I would rather see us fill the pond bottoms to where we have a 4 to1 slope or fence the ponds or in some other way allow us to actually let that groundwater continue to drop down continue to Pump from that groundwater for irrigation but that's a you know the point of me tying these two things together is we do have water that we use for poble water use that gets sent to our treatment plants and that water has to go somewhere under a current design ideology at least city of Del land and most of alucha County we use reclaim water for irrigation as a way to dispose of that water we have to meet higher treatment standards and this is where my level of intelligence gets to below a fifth grader and I need Michelle to speak up on you know any technical items but we have to treat it at a much higher quality if we're going to discharge it to the St John's river or discharge it to an aquifer the permitting process becomes much more complicated and challenging for the utility agencies but those are reliable discharge points versus irrigation and so my personal opinion is that that investment and that effort is worth it in a bigger context but I don't know what that looks like that's just a judgment without knowing the the total cost um but I do think that irrigation restrictions from aquafer based water is something that we should consider whether it's reclaim or potable um I think that it has implications in some of these basins on the flooding you so before we go on to Michelle to answer some of those questions Ty pardon oh okay John then Michelle then um we started this conversation and the room felt like we were all thankful to T for bringing this up in a timely matter before the meeting next Tuesday but we're also supposed to be working on the Land Development codes that's that's our remit and we're stepping a little bit outside it to analyze although personally I think this is a very important conversation I'm trying to figure out how we turn this and I wasn't kidding about a whiteboard if um if we're stepping outside our normal remit and saying how can we be of assistance to the council maybe we do need to make a list of all these different things that have come up in our meetings that we're concerned about and that we're continuing to look at I or do we look at these codes and try to rewrite them I'm trying I'm just trying to get us down to something actionable we got the Whiteboard I know I had to move it to plug in my computer um so I'm just looking for what we can do that isn't is taking an action that ends up from this with an action because I think the discussion is hugely valuable but it it has to translate to something no um yeah so I've listened to different things we're concerned about your base and the trails and we're concerned about all the different scenarios that happen and you know I think Donna said at best that we have all these different inputs that create flooding and and Jessica's mentioned preparedness as well and I guess before you even get into How deep the water is is how deep water do you accept as a common occurrence versus what is truly flooding um because there's a lot of areas Daytona Park of states that flood and have flooded and will continue to flood no matter what you do and then you have the areas of where we've overbuilt or we have problems with not understanding the underlying uh resist resistance that the of the ground soaking in the water and then you have historical rainfalls of a thousand year or 500 years but where do you start I mean where is where has it become truly flooding of concern versus flooding of a magnitude level that we have to address and you know so I'm just posing that out there more than anything else because we can talk about scenarios all day long that's what we talked about the last meeting though in a way when Revisited what sto what design storm I learned that term but what's the Threat Level that we're really concerned is my question um and I think that you know maybe Tad wants to jump in but I've heard Ben Bartlett um talk about you know that traditionally the way that that they've looked at flooding is are structures being flooded right are people's homes or businesses being flooded um and and I think you know that's one way to look at it I think that's partly like how our Emergency Management um the other thing that I think is important to this committee um is you know are areas being flooded that there are environmental consequences for for instance Daytona Park Estates is a great example in many cases those homes aren't flooded but if their yards are flooded that means their septic tanks are not operating right so that you see the the lady with the video walking around in her squish she yard that is septic tank water she's walking around in because that septic tank has failed and so you know I think there are sort of two different things there are the structure flooding and are people being endangered in that way and their Investments being endangered there's also the environmental consequences of flooding areas where um we don't have Central Services for Wastewater John are you do you have an additional Jessica I have a I've been up I'm sorry I missed you it was actually Michelle first because she was after John sorry about that so many thoughts so I don't even know where to begin but um I will say there's also other Solutions too for storm water because you could always pump storm water right not like the best solution you try to use gravity and more economical Solutions but a lot of the storm water and flooding I believe is still always going to be specific to each Basin or that particular area Ben Barlett said either they doing the studies right so when those Bas studies come that's going to tell us a lot of information that'll help you know staff and everybody identify where do we have to Target and what do you have you know and then kind of drill down when it comes to the regs I think we could take another look at them with all these thoughts now and try to come up with what's important right so we have maintenance um standards preparedness you know so I think that's kind of maybe where we head moving forward is kind of my thoughts for now yeah okay then to John's point about threat levels uh that is also site specific and I have I have absolutely no idea how to write policy that addresses every possible scenario um and if that's our charge I'm gonna have to leave it to the rest of you and hear hear what makes sense um but we are clearly so diverse in in the source of the threat that um I'm a little bit uh confused about where to start to to write policy that addresses it Jessica so I was going to say to first to your comment Melissa on you know we're having the discussion where does it lead um I think the the introduction to water usage and irrigation it's kind of like when we do our primers on topics right on the background before we look at changes and I think that out of that discussion we do eventually narrow down um to the key points that we want to see in the regulations and we may want to spend time on the current regulations in a bit as it relates to the pable and irrigation and reclaim um but in the the course of where we are now kind of this discussion on on flooding and water usage I agree it's s site specific um on risk I also agree that there has to be a level where we acknowledge a you know in the contract world with attorney something nobody can control nobody plans for um I think that there are individuals in our community who are deeply impacted by preventable flooding and that's one set of items that we should address and it could be through Basin plans or regulations that just in general increase capacity in our system before storm events um and that are just best practices for nutrient reduction and things like that but I think that another part of it is that we recall that hurricanes are acts of God um and you shouldn't be able to go to Publix two hours after a hurricane ends there is going to be water on the roads you're supposed to shelter in place let emergency vehicles get out so that's all part of I think education cuz we did hear heartbreaking stories during the storm we also heard stories that said there was water in the road and those are very distinct and I think have to be treated differently this started with just a question on the septic um which is Du is there a limitation on use of septic in flood planes currently uh not in flood planes per se it's based on the depth to water table and it's as permitted by the Department of Health which that's now um shifting over to D so it's not a um Geographic restriction it's a site specific what's the water table like at your site issue and then if you have a depth to water table issue you can Mound that drain field and still get um a septic per and and then just you know just between what reality is and what law is for instance and the Nords Peninsula which I'm familiar with lots of old housing stock all subpc systems the most densely septic system area in all of bisha County and one that is not prone to flooding except for Road flooding on John Anderson um we had people with mushy yards too because the septic systems are grandfathered and people either do not maintain their systems properly because it costs money to replace a drain field uh or they don't have them pumped out um or when they do go to replace their drain field they're allowed to replace it if their home was built before 1984 they'll allowed to replace it much closer to the it doesn't have to be as deep let me put it that way it can be closer to the water table and so if you're building a new house you have to mound in a lot of places on the North Peninsula but you don't if you're replacing old systems and I'm going to imagine that that's replicated all around the county when the health department was dealing with this anyway it depends sorry just two quick points uh there's storm water and then there's flood plane every development that comes through has to address storm water but not every development that comes through has to address flood plane so when if you don't have flood plane on your property you're not an issue from that perspective in regards to new developments coming in we do have in our flood plane ordinance the prohibition against locating developments in a manner that would have a negative impact to those areas so we do have some uh regulatory teeth is it as as perfect as an outright prohibition not necessarily because uh the folks who live in the legal world tell us about takings and things like that so we have to be cognizant of that but yes for new development and Miss lammer hit it straight on the head we have a lot of projects that were approved prior to 1983 is everybody aware that St John River Water Management District was not issuing permits until 1983 throughout the district and so and those were the old mssw permits that were out now so that's that just kind of gives you an indication in 1983 we're about half the population we are now so we still had a considerable amount of our population going through not having storm water Provisions that we have currently nowhere close with the flood plane requirements and that's why you have dayona Park Estates and other similar projects Florida at Cape Atlantic Estates down near Edgewater those are all areas that have flood plane that are in have wetlands are lowly have close uh the groundwater table very close to the surface and none of them have a storm water plant none of them have storm water facilities so these are the areas that have vested development rights because they met that litness test for at least the unincorporated area of having a valid subdivision by 1976 that are able to continue to develop and that's where we have to issue building permits and allow for the septics and the Wells on 75 by 150 foot deep Lots in dayon of Park and we can't fix that here this committee that's more of a policy direction from the County Council in regards to what they feel is appropriate for special assessments to address uh infrastructure deficiency Ginger I just wanted to um expand a little bit on Jessica's question the only place that I know in the county that we have Geographic restrictions on where septic tanks can go is in our class two area uh so you know south of new samr beach east of us one um we have some we have a an ordinance that directs um where the septic can go on the lot um but if it's a vested lot and there's no um Central service available not allowing some type of Wastewater system you know a on-site Wastewater system would be considered a taking um the other thing is that the state is now um enforcing um in a way that they haven't in the past um for Replacements of septic tanks in in certain areas in the springs in particular but it it really is going to apply to any um Basin that has a basin management action plan where nutrients are the um contaminant of concern uh they're directing that upon replacement or repair of a septic system they have to be nitrogen reducing so it doesn't um uh completely eliminate that system but it does um attenuate some of the nitrogen so making progress in that area but even if it's a nitrogen reducing system if it gets flooded it's not working so um and and then I just wanted to address really quickly and I hope hopefully not talking out of turn and you're talking about how do we bring this back to the things that are the purview of this committee um I think that certainly if there's a will of the committee to look at the um landscape and irrigation standards um if you know if we we provided the water-wise Landscaping ordinance you know if that's not sufficient you want to talk about that that's a way to do it then I think you know we need we we all have a tendency to think about how do we fix the problems that we have but because this committee is looking at codes that are looking to the Future right what does the next development have to comply with that um you know maybe we be thinking about um where we should be permitting development and where we shouldn't or if you're permitting development in areas that are vulnerable to to to you know flooding or other hazards um that maybe there are different standards and so I think that you know we we have on our list um flood Hazard management I think you know that's a great place to look at should we be permitting buildings with septic systems in areas that we know are going to flood right those sorts of things um and then looking at that Indian River Lagoon overlay also that's our class two area if we wanted to do that so I think there are some places that this could could come in and it would be a regulatory tie um versus some of the stuff that the Public Works folks are looking at with their Basin studies and and how to fix some issues that we have right now so with that said are we ready to look at our work plan and decide Tyler I'm sorry did you go ahead I was gonna just kind of answer the question to the pain threshold um you know I personally don't think that we're going to find agreement within the community on what level of flooding is acceptable I don't want my yard flooding so I bought a house that I knew wouldn't flood there's a lot of people that don't want their yard flooding they buy a house their yard floods and then what do they do they're they're in pain and they're coming to the council meeting I don't want to tell them that it's unreasonable it's just they might have made a mistake that led to them yeah I mean you know there's a lot of things that can lead to that and so I don't think we get into a productive conversation when we go down that route what I I mean I'm an engineer I like to solve problems so I'm looking at this from a what are the things that we as a community can encourage the council to do we as a committee advising Council what can we encourage them to take action on that can improve the recurrence of flooding and our or reduce the recurrence of flooding in our community and I think that we've identified a lot of those already at our prior meetings but one of the areas that we have not talked about at all is how we move water around as a community both for drinking water for irrigation water for other things and I do think that that's an area that affects flooding and I do think it's a lever that the council should in these Basin plans be considering and whether that means that you have Zer escaping requirements because we just can't tolerate irrigation within an already flood prone Basin or whether it means that you have different plans long term to for how to deal with that reclaim water I think we have some short-term and some long-term changes that we as a community are going to come into agreement that need to happen but as our role as an advisory Council to the to the or an advisory committee to the council I see it as important that we do actually look at what are the codes that we have in place make a statement that hey we think that all of this is really positive that we already have in place you have these upcoming efforts that are going to look at what can the county take as actions so that's not our committee but what can they take as actions we also think you need to include these other elements in those studies because there's been a lot of conversation of it but if you just do a storm water flood study I mean I've never considered irrigation and any storm water flood study of any kind that I've ever performed it's like this isn't a I don't want to say A New Concept but this is an idea that like hadn't come to me as a contributing cause until I started really listening to the comments so that's my position on it it's not that we're picking a level of pain that we can and can't live with I think Don is completely correct that there's so many factors that this is a caseby case evaluation but there needs to be some guidance and some boundaries of what are the things that are important for us to look at and um so that's the timeliness of it to me and that's also the the purpose behind it and it's it's also a more holistic which the statutes are not holistic but as you said that's an element that we had not considered as a as a factor clay you've had your name tag up okay um Ginger all right so are are we ready to look at our work plan then and continue because that would be a good deliverable to have and the other the other I'm sorry following up a little on Tyler said this several times to make recommendations to the council we speak through the ordinances we don't go to them and say unless we do it in our private capacities look all these things we do our ordinances one at a time right we've done liid we've done storm water I'm personally very pleased that those will go to the council together hopefully what clay was saying at the beginning that makes all the sense in the world uh imagine that um but we don't we don't go in and make a a recommendation and say we need to look at all these things all these things are contributing factors and we're working on them we just speak to them through the through the ordinances and I guess that's the only way we can correct I mean that's the the the committee has charged with making recommendations to the Council on the environmental minimum standards and the land associated did you know implementing ordinances so I I I don't think it's um out of the realm of possibility that the committee could come up with some great idea that's not exactly an ordinance thing like Tyler's saying okay we're doing these Basin studies let's not forget to look at this thing and talking about water yeah I think there's a way to um get those comments to the to the staff that would need them and then that that could bring up right I mean Tad's here we've talked to Ben right um I don't know that that's like you you would stand up in front of council and say well this isn't in our purview but I I think you should think about this but I that could happen where you guys come up with great ideas and those just go to the staff kind of um outside of a normal like presentation to the council thank you okay work plan would someone like to move that the work plan be approved as presented or something else Donna so of Donna moves that the work plan be approved as presented do we have a second we have a second Michelle Whit any discussion all those in favor say I any opposed motion carries and our work plan for 2025 is approved Bliss I just wanted to make sure you're still there and if you voted on that motion I don't think I muted her but I can try I didn't I'm here okay and did you vote um for that motion yes thank you thank you and we are at the what time is it 218 Mark uh is this a good moment I'd like some clarity if that would that's okay in terms of our next steps so um our next meeting will be in the beginning of February which would be before the council um would hear the liid and storm water ordinances um so I guess I'm wanting to know what you want to be prepared to do at that meeting if we're if we're tackling storm water management minimum standards as our first priority um we lost Tad but [Music] um I I think the way to do that is to look at what I I don't know I'm I'm torn we won't know what council thinks about what you've proposed for the chapter 72 yet um we could take what you has been proposed but not heard and it will have been to pdrc by then so we'll have some feedback um we could take that implementing ordinance and sort of back into the chapter 50 right basically what we'd be looking at is what standards do we want to apply in all the cities right because now we've said here are the standards we want to apply in the unincorporated area and we'd be looking sort of okay now what do we want to apply in the cities as part of the minimum standard we can do that at the next meeting based on what has been put forth already but not yet knowing what the council has voted for so I'll say that um alternatively and I I probably should have brought this up before I made the motion and all that we could continue the discussion about landscape and irrigation and stuff and I guess my question is sorry I'm not being very clear do you want to tackle the storm water minimum standards before you hear from the council about the stormwater Land Development code changes um I I want to add to this conversation that we are about to embark on um that all of us have to remember that we are now moving into countywide minimum standards which is very different in terms of who they will apply to than what we did for chapter 50 because minimum standards now become something that if adopted in a revised format become imposed on all of the cities and so we have to understand that and then secondly um you know we all live in different areas uh and may or may not have uh seen personal Andor uh neighborhood issues associated with storm water and flooding but uh to me as I think about tackling that topic which I personally I'm okay with starting it because I don't see us doing anything fast except for maybe today um um I feel like I also need to to hear and I don't know how this happens what have the cities been experiencing and or doing I know my area um but that's you know one of 16 cities and so somehow in moving forward on minimum standards we have to think through what is happening outside the unincorporated area and what are they doing already you know um that may or may not be something to mimic in a minimum standard um because we have heard a long time ago when we first got started that some cities have uh something more rigorous than uh otherwise so I think some of that we have to think about how do we get that information and understand it uh before we start tackling and I sure don't want us moving forward without some way of communicating and sharing and inviting you know I mean we have a gentleman today from City of Dand listening to us that's great but you start tackling a minimum standard and that has the potential to you know blow up not in a good way thank you Sly uh clay and then Jessica Sly provides a great uh segue we have checked all 16 cities currently meet our minimum requirements uh if you go back to when these were originally implemented they had till 1997 to have in place in their ordinance equal to or more restrictive storm water standards a review that I conducted about a month ago shows that all of them comply with that minimum requirement no problem there's actually quite a few including the city of new smna beach and D land have made amendments that incorporate additional standards specifically for some of the close base and and some of the other aspects of it so we will be able to report to you in kind of a matrix kind of showing the critical design elements and whether or not that are contained in chapter 50 we should be able to do that to you for you at the February meeting kind of go through what y'all want to do and then at that point I think we could send it out to the 16 cities and ask them for them to provide their comments on the you know again just taking the changes y'all have recommended for 72 crafting them for chapter 50 because we are because it is chapter 50 we have to coordinate with all 16 cities before we do anything at all there's a minimum 30-day notification requirements the earlier we can do it and the more time that we can provide to them I think would be better thank you clay um Jessica Wendy then Tyler okay what was okay where were you relative to because Jessica has been up her long okay thank you oh I think that knowing this group and assuming which you know what they say about that but assuming some discussion that will happen on the 14th that our first meeting in February will really be a recap of that discussion I think that this board ends up being a Clearing House even if we're not necessarily the best um post for some of the discussions and so I think that if we can focus on here's why minimum standards are different you know procedurally how we're going to approach that and that overview of the municipalities in addition to an update on the flooding and storm water discussion that happens on the 14th I believe that we'll be well in hand to fill our time yep I'm I'm in favor of doing a brushstroke approach to uh minimum standards especially because the council's going to be reviewing them I think prior too it's good for us to have the knowledge and I think it's good for us to be able to understand uh where we need to go as a committee what recommendations we may need to make or anything like that so I'm I'm in favor of of doing that so just mechanically um two questions one the cities currently meet the minimum standard right not the new proposed correct okay and then mechanically will they have to once we and Valia County approves the um chapter 50 changes they have to go through their own Ru making yes and and what you saw is that uh valuch County basically came up with the standards starting in 1995 and gave the cities till 1997 to get it adopted so we would have to talk about the time frame uh you know again the majority of the changes that yall T made to chapter 72 were very technically oriented and so therefore I don't see that as a major stumbling block just in my own personal opinion because it's going to be a situation where people like Don at Delan is going to look and say yeah this Mak sense or no it doesn't and feed back to us and again they they have the option to be more restrictive so it just kind of sets in motion the discussion of what we've already have in place Wendy bonna I'm in no position to speak for the cities but just as an observer of many of the city commission meetings since last fall I think you know city is dealing with this and I think they are eager to find Solutions and I think I've also heard a lot of rhetoric from um people across the county that it is time for the county and the cities to work more collaboratively to find Solutions so I think if we can participate in that by offering up some some technical options for those round taes to consider um it it would be it would be us doing our part to help with that I'm I'm looking at the um the diagram that vCard fard sent around this past week and um and the very first item on this is establish a storm water Round Table I don't know what they mean by that there short description but I'm assuming that that would have representatives from each of the cities in the county as well as from other stakeholder groups and um and so yeah I think if we can offer up some suggestions from this committee to those to those countywide convers it would be useful thank you Donna then oh sorry just before we do that we do have a new participant um and I um muted him briefly but uh how do I unmute you yeah Sean Weinberg our our environmental compliance manager is gonna log in for me I have to be at City Hall at three o'clock for another meeting U believe it or not it's on this basically the same issue flooding we have an issue with Viator Park and City manager and a few other staff members so Sean's going to take over for me well thank you very much for joining you're welcome uh Donna and Wendy are you coming back again or is it Tyler Donna then Tyler this is uh mainly a I think of for procedural Clarity and I think it relates to Bill's question um so in imposing new minimum standards on cities uh does this effectively require them to up their systems if they need to do that in order to meet our new minimums uh is do we have the authority to do that and um how does this fit with home rule cities I'll let clay answer that under the county Charter the State of Florida is established such that counties can establish Charters and identify specific roles that they can do Luchia County's Charter allows us to establish minimum environmental standards that uh go into the cities other uh counties such as Broward and pinelis have similar type of rules and regulations um what this it would not necessarily pertain to the infrastructure that the city maintains per se it would pertain solely to the rules and regulations they utilize for their storm water management ordinances so they already have on a on the books standards that comply with our current chapter 50 this if this group recommends a series of changes that are consistent with chapter 72 mechanically we would send that out once we've got blessing from the council to do so they would then have 30 days to review those make comment get back to it and then uh depending on what the comments were the county Council would have to take final action on that ordinance then there would be a set time frame for those cities to amend their ordinances to being compliance with our updated chapter 50 those are all allowed under the cap under the CH Charter uh 202.4 of the charter is that correct and so um it it it is a a common practice that we've utilized here in beluch County um we recently did something of a similar nature to chapter 50 for our beaches and dunes permit what about four years ago five years ago so it it is um not impeding impeding on their home rule Jack you got it oh Tyler then Jack and ginger are you in Q or so I think definitely it's a good idea for us to get into chapter 50 next month most of the suggestions that we're sending to council for chapter 72 are pretty minimal there's a couple of them that may have controversy at a chapter 50 level but overall I think they're Common Sense things that address some failures that have occurred I think there's more that we can actually get into and discussion that's going to be unpopular with the cities and so on and so forth and that we just all have to be measured and you know recognized that this is the rule for everybody but I I I'm for this uh Jack then Jessica then sly yeah I was kind of going there I I'm very interested in the gaps between what we're suggesting as minimums and what the cities have in place now and if that Gap is larger and the significance of of the discussion may be better so maybe this next uh meeting we get into those differences but I'm but I'm happy to hear that a lot of them are minimal uh because that makes them easier to implement uh and and perhaps perhaps it means we're not going far enough uh but I think it does call for the next meeting to be kind of a recap of where we are and perhaps a grid that says okay here here's what we're recommending and here's how far away that is for each municipality as they are because then we say well you know is that is that reasonable and and and actually get ahead of it instead of suggesting it and then them coming back and saying that's that's unreasonable it's a little more proactive approach thank you Jack um Sarah then Jessica yeah I I just I think I'm gonna say something that piggybacks on Jack I I want to make sure that how uh not necessarily the next meeting I understand what I think sounds really good for the next meeting but perhaps soon thereafter I want it to be collaborative I I don't want it to be some something where you know when I hear this 30 days you have 30 days to review you know and when you get something like that and you feel like you that really doesn't mean input you know I I want to make sure um that we as an advisory committee approach it in a way that allows for input before we send something to C so I agree with you Sly on that um my comment was going to be more on Wendy noted the the vCard recommendations on flooding mitigation which typically we couldn't talk about so if we want to talk about it at the end we can um but I think that when we talk about what the role of this committee is is a lot of the hats that everybody on this committee wears outside of this room it's Lally of me I guess but most of it reduces down to an ordinance and so there are aspects in kind of the recommendations and work plan that we may not think of right the collaborative board meeting between local government and their technical staff um being one which you mentioned but also you know somewhere on there there's updates on infrastructure needs and if you boiled it down there could be a minimum standard that says on a biannual 5-year basis local governments have to submit their priority needs you know list for storm water infrastructure just some way to share information that's a regulation um but it it leads to the collaboration and kind of the policy building so I think there's a way for us to to work through that too is this an appropriate break moment it is may I ask a question or make a statement first yes Bliss thank you um while we're on this um talking about minimum standards and um I heard what Sarah Lee and and Jack both had to say um and Jessica I would um also like to add that you know instead of just a response um some of the smaller cities are understaffed and may need some um technical assistance from the county um understanding um everything in conjunction with what they are trying to do um so I just wanted to put that out there that um I think the the county may be needed to assist some of the Cities thank you so we need to allow time for that um I think now is a perfect time for a break although I will point out that I believe we covered everything on our agenda so it may maybe a break until next month if that's that would be a first wouldn't that kick the new year off interestingly if there's more discussion absolutely we we're not you know we have time but I recognize Michelle just wanted to make a comment though so all these new ordinances would be for new developments um the a lot of the flooding issues are the existing development so then what are the mechanisms that we could use to help rectify the existing developments address it I think that's the Silver Bow that I I still can't figure out is how do we do that can I um I think the challenge and Donna uh mentioned it um based on some comments yesterday at the legislative session I think one of the challenges that we have societally I don't care if we're talking the cities or the counties or let's leave valua go somewhere else and have the same conversation is we have areas that have been developed without infrastructure as we know it today and without regulations as we know it today and in some of those instances you know there are no good Solutions there's only expensive Solutions and that is certainly not this committee's charge right we're regulatory um and in in in the times we're living in right now where nobody wants to spend any money on anything you know it's really hard for local government especially but even even you know State and and higher up to come up with enough money to address individual and neighborhood and Regional concerns that are largely either infrastructure-based or individual homes you know that need rebuilt or perhaps you know there's three homes together that should now be a basin you know a pond um there are those are to me this is the easy work the regulatory work and the concern that I think some of us have is that a more torium does not address the problem that is quite frankly way more extensive then Michelle then Wendy thank you um the question about uh basically a coordinated Public Works effort to identify those deficiencies has been identified by the round table of elected officials as a critical element uh mayor paritzky from the town of Pon Inlet is the chairman of that committee and she has asked for that to be on the next available agenda and the again those of you may not remember we used to have a league of cities organization that disbanded the round table of elected officials has taken that place and that's basically where we're seeing uh the coordination efforts uh really being spearheaded uh so therefore um as been mentioned by many of the members on this board every city in vage County I think is mentioning hate saying it every city in all of Florida is grappling with this issue and so there is now a effort from that group to put in place that coordination element amongst the cities and the county in regards to flooding storm man storm water facilities maintenance Etc Michelle took her card down so Wendy we didn't we didn't respond to you so um so yes everything that that sarily and everybody else has said you know just second all of that that um yeah it's expensive and the work that we're doing is not retroactive um I did like what I don't know Melissa or somebody else um said a little while ago that it could be an ordinance that cities are required to do a review of their infrastructure and see what is needed to you know to update and you know and again you know that was a piece of this if if we're maybe going to forgo a break and just maybe visit for another 20 minutes before we depart okay okay well anyway I do find it interesting you know what vCard fard sent out and you know and I would like to point out that they they they feature um supporting a hybrid Li destructure they feature um avoiding and minimizing Wetland impacts um some things that we have talked about and been supportive of although we don't have our Wetlands ordinance going forward just yet um I think that this is this is an interesting framework that they've presented I don't necessarily agree with all of their sort of funding proposal pieces of it but um but I think that this might be an interesting it might be interesting to spend a few minutes to sort of respond to this and see if there's anything about this proposal that informs the work we have to do given how influential vCard is in policy development is that a motion I move that we spend a few minutes to review this so maybe a break is in order and then come back and there you go e e e e e e e e e e e e e e are you leaving okay cuz all right well you'll just have to live with what we do friends Romans and countrymen I'm calling the meeting back to order please thank you thank you very much um could I ask your Indulgence in going back to something please for for just a moment um at one of our very first meetings Wendy brought up a frustration that I think we've all had and that is we get into topics like water and it's related to many of the other topics but we have to deal with it discreetly each each set of of of laws we deal with discreetly and sometimes something we learn as we're talking about one set of ordinances makes us think back to another ordinance Tyler went broad today he said I want to talk about water and I found this other bit of water that we haven't been discussing and it's and it's reclaim water irrigation water that's another input of water onto the land well we talked about something at our last meeting and it kind of fell short I think because of the discussion of the Basin uh studies that are going to be undertaken and at this meeting we're talking about hearing from the cities but I know from other organizations that I'm part of and things that I read that we are having changes to our ground water levels as well and we're only addressing that from a boring position we're not we we you know we did reexamine as a body our design storms but we didn't talk about where that water table is predicted to be and we didn't we had the opportunity to say hey we want to hear from some people so if we're hearing from the cities do we want to hear from some outside expertise or what other counties might be doing near us I don't know what what information's out there uh uh of adjacent counties but it seems to me that if we're really trying to Grapple with the problem of water too much of it and not enough of it because as are both two sides of the same coin why would we ignore what's going on underneath the ground so that's just throwing that out there while we're inviting people to come talk to us Mr light what are you suggesting I'm suggesting we go back to calling in some expertise outside expertise like we did for the the borings we had an engineer come in Dr Anderson I definitely think there's some value in hearing from some other counties that have grappled with this perhaps longer than we have and you know and whether that's asking staff to review what they do or to to invite some um you know some experts from other counties that that would be use ful and then I I do love that we're now thinking about both surficial and and kind of Deep aquafer Water Resources and um you know their impacts on flooding as well as you know as a resource in other in other regards and so I don't want us to ignore that and I don't know if that means we need to have somebody come in from St John's or if we need to have um you know hydrologist come in and talk to us about that but yeah I do think that that's a really important perspective that we've been ignoring Ginger do you have an opinion on as or Samantha as you've gone to different resilience uh shindigs um yeah so work is being done in other counties right um you know folks in South Florida have been dealing with this longer than us and um they've done some different things than we do um related to groundwater and rainfall you know we there are um other areas that are looking at um you know what is the predicted future rainfall so not designing to the the current rainfall right because the standards we use right now from USGS are from 2013 um you know rainfall patterns have changed so um Samantha had a good point that the regional planning Council has done good work on the at least on the rainfall piece uh yeah and so you know we could um get somebody from the planning Council to come in and talk about some of the other work that they done and work that other Counties have done because they similarly to how they've helped us they've helped other municipalities and counties so um we could reach out to them and see if they have some input would that be amendable Mr hob I think it would be important and I know you suggested St John's Water Management District but I think maybe looking at a longterm and a shortterm historical perspective of the hydrology in this County over the past 10 to 50 years to see what those levels and in that little bit of science that comes into play and is there something that is alarming or concerning uh by those those numbers as well I think experts are are good for helping us make good decisions thank you so what I understood from John is maybe it would be good to hear from two groups from both the regional planning Council and maybe from the district Wendy I alluded to this earlier I am really curious and I'm looking across at John when you convert land from a fernery or an Orange Grove or pasture land to a subdivision you know acre by acre how much more or less water is being drawn to support that land use not just for yeah and not just for irrigation but for the domestic use as well and um you know because that is kind of going into the entire you know kind of basin recirculation and not necessarily ever making it back to the Deep aquifer so um so there there is some probably good information from St John's on that because they do perit and they do uh they do monitor your usage um in agriculture because especially in the uh high water use caution areas um there are some good data I'm sure that's available there but uh I and knowing the agricult the state of the agriculture industry over the past uh 10 years we've seen a decline uh probably more in agricultural production in this County than we have an increase and so so that consumption is is down from the withdrawal standpoint um and the the thing that always concerned me as a an AEG producer is we always got charged or accused of our withdrawals especially this time of the year when your free protecting and those kind of things but you always got damned for the withdrawals but you never got any credit for the recharge and all these Farms are on well- drain Sandy soils which is ideal for growing and and it was it's it's an interesting side of just not just Urban and you know public use but that agricultural side is is an interesting study as well that is we can look into that uh so Sam and I were just Whispering about maybe some some places to find some of that information the program for resource efficient communities at UF uh does some research on um on those sorts of issues the other thing is that the D when they're assigning um water quality um allocations for for water quality reduction they have um it's a nitrogen model but basically they're modeling pollution and they also are modeling consumption based on land use and so we may be able to and the Water Management District does a lot of consumption um model in based on land use so there there may be some of that out there whether well there's certainly some of it out there whether um we want to do all that at the February meeting or we want to like tackle some of it let us do some research and find out the right people um you know maybe it maybe a following meeting but I I think there's really good work happening out there and to the extent that we can find it and whether or not the expert can come and talk about it or whether you know we can have a small presentation you know if the staff ask has to do it or whatever I think we could do that personally and and John articulated it really well I I like the idea again of grounding ourselves in some in in some Regional knowledge and taking it from from there um and maybe it's a multiplicity of sources but I'd certainly love particularly to hear from at least one of them at the next meeting yep yep we'll work on M okay Jessica do you want to walk us through your vCard like sure absolutely um sure we can um so this was sent out um with a little bit more detail um Beyond it I know that this is the publicly um available infogra traffic um two County council members from vcards technical Review Committee um it is a a snapshot of potential flooding mitigation strategies to be explored um there's a little more detail in the backup for each but in general um there are ideas brought together either by um just our our members with expertise in the area that volunteer to the the technical board so I'll run through them very quickly um give kind of the the main insight and then we're happy to to talk about it more um the first is establish a storm water round table so that was really focused on like we said getting everybody in the room together so similar to what you see with the TPO where you've got a local government um body who reviews and discusses these items like clay said I think that the um elected official Round Table um is looking at serving in kind of that capacity and already talking about it and then we here it says utilize LMS which is I think local mitigation strategy which is a board um created to deal with FEMA funding mostly local mitigation strategy it's got um staff members from each local government that come together and talk about funding priorities um for storm damage I think that that using that Baseline and expanding that out to create a dual function board where you have the elected officials and policy makers and you have the technal technical expertise of Staff talking about Regional issues um in coordinated efforts whether it's using existing funding looking at grant funding um whatever it becomes and even talking about policy um I think it's important to all talk to each other because you've got boards like us who are trying to piece together what all 16 cities do and what they need um that's one I think it's honestly the one that has the most potential of the 10 of getting um solutions for existing problems the next one is adoption of a flooding mitigation fund there are a lot of ways to do that we talked about it uh you know sales tax a millage like Lucha forever um special assessment districts or just grant funding that's just all of these problems are expensive and we need to find money um somewhere and kind of highlighting on the legal side that new development cannot legally be held responsible for operation and maintenance costs it is excluded under the statute so to the extent that we want to deal with existing issues we're going to need to look at where that funding comes from pardon me to the extent that we're dealing with existing issues what we need to look at where that funding is going to come from to pay for that Beyond new development emergency storm water easements um some of our local governments here in Valia already have this it's just that for all storm water infrastructure on new developments there's an emergency easement in favor of the local government with jurisdiction so that in an emergency they are not obligated to but they have the right to go in and repair a pipe or something that's broken transfer development rights is something that was brought um up and drafted years and years ago I think in the map a and map B lists of the county um about preserving environmentally sensitive areas water recharge areas and um putting density in the municipalities for wetland that's what the flu used to look like yes I say the a and Bs yeah um in fact it never got moved forward yeah from the master planning side of things I do it yeah yeah I say that's the tip of the iceberg conversation yeah um the next one Wetland mitigation is you know build on the avoidance and minimization the county has vCard suggested a tier approach where once the county shifts to kind of the umam structure maybe the fee structure increases as well based on the quality scoring of the Wetland to disincentivize impacts to higher quality Wetlands repetitive law standards and r development um as we talked about today the county is going through all of these Basin studies those will be kind of mitigation plans like Ben told us um with priorities on how to assist in those areas um as a part of that vCard suggest looking at increased either standards or action plans for those Redevelopment loss and Redevelopment opportunities look at buyout approaches look at design standards um higher design storm um strategies there um the next one is the adopt the hybrid L structure to where there are some required elements and devise the remainder we've talked about that at length um the next two the review countywide infrastructure and the regional maintenance program go together which is that a few years ago the county and all of the local governments um to the state provided a inventory of their drainage infrastructure um I don't know that all 16 cities participated or all say municipalities so identifying the gaps and what we know and don't know about that infrastructure and then building on that to say okay we know where your facilities are how old are they what materials are they made out of when do they need to be replaced what's functioning and what's not and leading into what of this infrastructure is regional um and you know water doesn't respect jurisdictional lines right that's been talked about a lot and so what infrastructure needs to be under one jurisdiction it may not be the county could be do it could be um the state it could be the county it could be local government but where should we have one targeted jurisdiction that has control of Maintenance and kind of the flow of that facility and then how do we make sure that we're keeping an eye on maintenance for both private and public infrastructure um and then Technology Innovation where can we design um with the AI um assisted pumping systems for ponds before storm events to create additional holding capacity um where can we build in kind of prep and that one I think could expand into a million things so that is a very brief primer on the overall 10 that we put together quick quick question um I have a thought where this belongs but I was just wondering the concept of managed Retreat did y all talk about that or did you see that is going um I so your one area I thought maybe yeah that's where I thought it might belong did you talk about it or we didn't talk about the phrase I think that the repetitive loss and Redevelopment kind of built in that structure as well as some of the if you were to use the transfer development rights those kind of play into where should we be developing and let's focus on those areas so one of the County's priorities that um is to streamline the process for getting grants to buy out repetitive law structures so which caught my eye at least Autobon supported that um so we have and Clay mentioned it here several times and I think Tad as well that we have bought up some of those properties but I don't know if we're really taking a good look now at the patterns of flooding and where we're putting good money after bad this is wonderful because it brings together a number of problems and some sets of solutions as an infographic um and it's more holistic again going back to the frustrations that we have when when we deal with ordinances and I almost wish that we were starting over like we started today and so let's talk about water let's talk about too much of it let's talk about too little of it it and then and then break that out but that that's not the way it's worked and I also think Michelle brought up a a very valid point that we didn't pick up the ball and run with it but she said is there anything that this committee can do ordinance wise on existing problematic structures existing flooding is there anything we can do and a certain person I know once mentioned that yes we could be recommending retrofitting of swailes and curb and gutter and I think I think Miss gal might have some some thoughts on that I think at a long time ago at a vCard meeting you brought some of those things up before we were on this committee together did I I'm just Kidd well I mean I do think that there there are methods especially when you look at tied into Redevelopment we talk about how a lot of our problems are existing that things that have been grandfather and forgive me when we did storm water we kind of glossed over Redevelopment infill kinds of things because it was so little of what was in the county but as we look at chapter 50 then we're getting into that sorry no no agree yeah and so I think that most local governments have built into their you know code nonconformities and how we phase those out over time because it is legal to phase them out over time um depending on when they come in for upgrades over certain threshold or the value and things like that we should perhaps look at when that threshold is triggered what do they need to do in terms of storm water infrastructure I and improvements there but again this is just one group's perspective on trying to get some ideas on the board to talk about so so what I'm hearing is that we're going to ground ourselves in some additional expertise and that we may look at we may broaden our lens as we go through chapter 50 and look also at retrofits I don't think anybody can see my hand so I'm GNA say yes I support that thank you Bliss and I'm glad you're not shy and forgive me do you see her yeah I do I see that little hand now no I'm just kidding um here's what I know because I started saying you know something like the TPO and I was informed that local governments kind of already have this in terms of flooding but maybe staff can tell us more so the local mitigation strategy is a multi- jurisdictional um document and Committee of all of the jurisdictions in valusa county that get together um I say at least four times a year if not more uh to identify what types of infrastructure they need uh funding for and then we rank them on a list and whenever those funding opportunities come available then we collaboratively seek that funding for those items on the list and through Emergency Management yeah Emergency Management is the head of it and they had a few flood um because the flood plane management plan is a part of the LMS document as well so they had a few public uh meetings over the course of the past I don't know six months or so because they are updating the LMS document right now and the flip CL management plan yeah through the East Central Florida Regional planning council is the consultant they're using to update that and the only tweak I'll say to the vCard recommendation is that I think they are pretty right now in their scope of operations I want to say they're pretty limited to say this is the pool of funding we got from the federal government that we are deciding on um I think the vision here would be utilizing that same structure and members um to expand that to use local funding grant funding anything else we can pull in so it might be a little bit of a divide to make sure they're still following Federal mandates but having that same yeah and at the the last LMS meeting they actually talked about either having a subgroup of the LMS or the LMS as the whole um look for that additional resiliency funding for the infrastructure projects so that did come up kind of I will say the TPO is also something that's established by state federal I don't know some government they're mandated Federal to be created um so in the the detail breakdown on the the storm waterer Round Table we talk about how there are certain benefits of a state saying hey you all need to get together and part of that is who comes to the table um because I think in terms of the discussion on flooding we've talked about do a lot we've talked about St John's um and getting them to the table either through a state mandate or through asking very nicely of our local Partners at those agencies um I think is important and they have different weights but the TPO is just something that I'm I was more familiar with when I started drafting it was great to hear that we have kind of that same thing on the Emergency Management side what so about the possible retroactive policy so I'm gonna just don't please don't shoot me um trees so somebody sat a while back um and I'm not going to point any fingers that you know trees aren't going to be a part a part of the problem for um part of the solution for flooding and and I strongly disagree I disagree to the moment I disagree you know forever so when we leave trees in place they slow down the movement of water horizontally across the landscape they do facilitate the vertical transfer of water into the ground and yes over a longer period of time they do help with transpiration they do transpiration so you know we have put trees pretty far down on our work plan for this year and I didn't object earlier but it's kind of unfortunate that we have invested several months in reviewing tree ordinances and yet now we completely disregard them as part of our sense of urgency to develop solutions for flooding when in fact they may be a really critical component of that and and even retroactively like that's a thing that we could have developments that have been installed within the last 10 years do is go back and add more trees as you know as where they can um you know or you know add plantings around their storm water ponds and I know there's pros and cons to that but you know that's a thing that can help and so is that an ordinance we maybe want to review again in light of flooding that we can ask developments to to rethink how they do their trees in all seriousness all joking aside because I made a quip about trees we did move away because we got direction from the council to look at storm water and we're widening our lens now because we realize that these many things are related and I think in the I would I would like it at least that in the open and Broad conversations how do we solve this problems thing these problems things like that would crop up and then we go back to trees or go back to whatever and say we need to discuss this aspect of it if I'm if I'm making CU when we started trees that was we we were we were naive we didn't we weren't getting first a holistic presentation we changed that methodology where we would have a presentation by staff and then we would discuss and we also were were we had less of a 360 degree view of what we're trying to work on at that time so um Donna Jack careful is it she didn't hit you did she no I just don't want her to freak um is it fair to suggest that because we're approaching this from a stormw water uh perspective bringing trees into the discussion is not about trees it's about storm water and the relationship between trees and storm water so we're not revisiting trees I promise we're not um I I I just I don't think that it should be excluded um it isn't in my mind a a major component but I don't think that it should be eliminated either yeah I I think maybe it's an opportunity you know because we push down the line I I was for pushing it up because we had got caught in it and it was early and I was trying to get it done and so I suggested to Ginger that that it be kind of fused into the flooding area um because it's such low hanging fruit if you will but the the fact is uh you know I think we've got a we may just put that as a factor in this and because we're because it is a low priority okay then then as we go Ong in these other subjects um you know I think we'll we'll see trees as a potential option and maybe it maybe it's an impetus to finish off trees and put it away even before we finish all the other flooding elements more directly so in our storm water Cals land cover um runoff curve numbers we we showed a chart from tr50 5 there is more runoff generated from grassland or pasture than from woods so I'm going to say I don't really I feel very allergic to even moving back into this conversation like I feel my tongue swelling up as I'm trying to talk here um you know like I I I'm so far from you know agreement that we should go back to the conversation but I don't want to dismiss it it it's already something that's accounted for in our storm water engineering designs it's something that we do the ponds are considered grass they're not considered a wooded thing so um encouraging the planting of trees it's going to have positive and negative ramifications and I this is my allergy I'm not going to be opposed to that but encouraging it as a requirement or as a code or something else I'm going to have strong opposition and bring a lot of that argument up um just because it is already accounted for and I think we're getting into an area of science that is emotional and not scientific okay so we have marching orders for our next meeting yes and it seems to me this is a good moment to perhaps adjourn any discussion Bliss anything to say about adjourning I see your hand up going once going twice bliss all right all those in favor of adjourning any opposed thank you very much see you in February