Good evening, West Orange, and welcome to our continuing series of the West Orange Township Council Budget Workshops. We're coming to you live streaming from council chambers. You are welcome to join us in council chambers, but there will be no public comment in
public uh in council chambers or from the Zoom audience. At this point, I'd like to turn you over to our council president. Thank you, Mr. Fagan. And at this point, I will turn it over to Madame Clerk.
This is to inform the general public that this workshop is being held in compliance with section 5 of the Open Public Meetings Act, chapter 231, Public Law 1975. The notice for this workshop was emailed to the West Orange Chronicle and the Star Ledger on July 30th, 2025.
Councilwoman Castelino. Councilwoman Ruden here. Councilwoman Scarpa present. Council President Koviaak present. Thank you. So, welcome West Orange to our 11th budget workshop for the 2025
municipal budget. Uh this one is on August 4th. The draft budget from the mayor proposed to raise municipal property taxes by 6.2%. We've knocked that increase uh down substantially to around 2% and we continue to look for additional
efficiencies and savings. If you want to follow along, please go to the township website, westtor.org, use the search box in the upper right hand of the page, type in budget, and click on the first result and you'll see the top item is the budget version that
is dated July 22nd. We'll be working from that tonight and I believe Mr. Fagan will soon take you on a guided tour to show you directly. But before he does, I just want to clarify that tonight we are going to begin the
workshop by uh starting a discussion of the citizens budget advisory board's preliminary report. It is on the finance page on the budget page of the of the township website and a few Facebook
pages. Uh and also you can see that uh all of the board's members have joined us on the deis to facilitate uh discussion. We are not taking public comment. If you want to comment or ask questions, please send
an email to councilwwest orange.org which despite what you may think also goes to the mayor and several people in her administration. If you want to send just to the council, send it to one of us and ask for distribution uh to each of us. If you need email addresses,
search for council on the township website. Recordings of the workshops are on the township website. You can find them by searching for video gallery. Just want to remind everyone to please speak into the microphones as loudly as you feel comfortable, especially when
the air conditioning is going. Uh, if you're a council member on Zoom, please raise your digital hand so Mr. Fagan can see and then wait until the chair recognizes you. If you see me pointing or nodding to Mr. Fagan after you raise your hand, that is my acknowledgement that I will call on you
as soon as I can. When you are finished, please say so. I think we've settled on thank you at the end of your discussion. And lastly, I urge everyone to consider time efficiency in their comments and questioning to be sure what you say is necessary. The faster we carefully go
through the budget, the better. Mr. Fagan. Thank you, Council President. I am going to attempt to do as efficient as a job uh that Mr. Datiniac uh normally does in uh showing everyone where the uh
tonight's presentation is going to be. So, if everyone would find their way to the website and click over here on the right side department and um I think I already filled it up, Mr. Tiniac that's under departments
under finance and then under to the left side budget on the left side budget. Thank you Mr. and then it's the first click here the 2025 citizens budget advisory board
preliminary report for township council uh on the 2025 budget that's going to be displayed on the screen here. Uh, but if you like to follow along, please follow my directions and I apologize for not being as efficient as Mr. Diniac. So,
with that, I'm going to put the budget up. Thank you, Mr. Fagan. We're going to start off with a uh introduction to the report by Mr. Ron Charles, who is the chair of the Citizens Budget Advisory Board. And uh,
Mr. Charles, take it away. Thank you, Council President. Uh, good evening, Council President, council members, u, administration, council administration, clerk's office, and members of the public. It is our honor to present the preliminary report from the Citizens Budget Advisory Board. This report is
the result of a collaborative effort by the entire board who's with us tonight, just one member. It's driven by our shared commitment for transparency, fiscal responsibility, and a well-being for our community. We want to extend our gratitude to the town
council for their support of the body of work the board has undertaken as well as the CFO and the township administration and the clerk's office for their efforts in providing the essential data and materials needed for this report. As you have read and and the public can see,
this report includes immediate recommendations for the 2025 fiscal year aimed at strengthening and improving our financial outlook while balancing the delivery of services. The board recognizes this is a very tough fiscal year for the taxpayers due in part to
the reevaluate evaluation. Beyond this year, the report offers a comprehensive set of best practices with both short-term and long-term strategies designed to improve governance. I would like to note the report is preliminary as a working document. The board worked
quickly and under a quick turnaround goal for delivering the report for the use of the 2025 budget. A final report will be delivered at the end of the workshops. Tonight the entire board is as I said is here to answer any questions uh the council or the administration may have. Um so we are
here to kick things off mission just well he'll join us I think he's joining us a little late so thank you council president. Okay so I'm not sure Mr. Charles what you wanted
to do. I think you mentioned that maybe we let uh everybody talk uh in terms of what they think are items that are important to talk about as opposed to walking through uh the budget presentation which can be done by anybody who agrees it. I I'm in agreement. I think the board is
as well if if each of us talk about one or two items if that's okay with uh the council. Sure. And then we'll answer any question and more items that you guys have particularly. So do you have any priorities? I do. I two things. Um I think it's important to uh and what's mentioned in
the report is the schedule right here. We are mid August right and we're looking for a final adoption I think the end of September. So that's September 30th. Um in the report we talk uh talk about the the League of Municipalities and Njac's
recommendation for the calendar. I think that um the township should look um to maybe not come up the exact dates but but getting very close to those dates. I'm sure the CFO and and the new business administr business manager uh
are starting to work on that. Um at the county level, we're actually preparing our but our 2026 budget already. Um so I think it's important so that we're not sitting here next year Septemberish and u threequarters of the year has gone
by um and uh budget is not a finally adopted. So I think that's something that's uh important for for me. And the other thing was because of my career in public safety, um there was an RFP put out about two or three years ago, um for
an analysis to be done for public safety, both I don't know if it was just the police or the police and fire. Um and for some reason, it was it was not awarded or not put out. In the report, we talk about the overtime for the police. Um
and when you look at the overtime you the public may think that a million dollars a million one is is is a lot right uh certainly the number is large but how does that compare over the trend of three or four years right five years right um it could be
lower right getting us the data was a little slow but now that we have the data it's looking like the 1.1 is about what they spent over the last couple years actually means probably a few few dollars less but I think the more accurate way uh of tracking that is not
dollars, it's hours. It's overtime hours, right? Because why is that? Because obviously year to year people's salary go up. So the the average overtime rate is going to go up. So using dollars is not exactly the most
accurate uh to determine if the overtime is being managed well or if it could be could be lowered. So I I'm certainly recommending from a professional and from the board level that maybe we take a look at putting out the RFP again to do the staffing and and the staffing
house may indicate that it's it's all within reason. It's all and and that's something that we would like to know. Also may determine that we may need three or four or five or six different more officers right now. then the town administration would have to weigh well
is it better to hire those more uh more police officers and more firemen if it if it's both or do we want to run the overtime right certainly when you when you look at hiring you have you have the fringe costs which for public safety is about 63% more right
you have uh you have to consider that you have you have health benefits that are going up crazy in the state of New Jersey you have um pension costs that that are going up So, at some point, yes, the dollar amount of over a million dollars may look
staggering. Um, but I think that a better way of looking at this or getting and and listen, and it might it might reveal that we need to hire three or four more police officers, right? It may need firemen. I I think that that's something that that should have been
followed through when they put out the RFP. I I don't know what happened or why it wasn't put out or why it wasn't it was put out. I don't know why it wasn't awarded. Um, but I think that's something that we as a board are recommending and certainly me professionally as well. So, the two
things that I have is the schedule. Um, that's important to me and I think taking a look at both public safety as far as um cost savings dollar-wise and sort of operations staffing analysis. Thank you, Mr. Charles. I should have
also said this at the beginning that what I'd like to do is ish devote the first half hour to 45 minutes of our meeting tonight to the report. See how fast we can get through it. If we can't get through it completely, we will bring
it back the next uh the next uh meeting. Uh I realize that might represent a bit of a difficulty of getting everybody in person here, but uh uh we do have a full schedule of uh of budget related topics.
So I just want to let you know uh if I cut us off at some point, it's just because we need to get on to other things. Okay. So uh Miss Bennett, would you like next? Sure. Okay, please. Sure. So, I think um if I were going to
highlight a couple of points for the council to pay close attention to, I would direct your attention to page eight. Um on page eight, you'll see in bold uh the immediate actionable opportunities for budget reduction.
There's three uh bullets in that section. I would encourage you to become familiar with those and if not um exactly at least let me see if I can get there. I don't know. It's a lot of pressure.
If not I'll fix it right now. That's so it's those uh three bolded bullets in the center of the screen. Um, if not exactly, I I would encourage you to consider the spirit of these
recommendations. Um, and uh, I think related, I would direct your attention, this is the lawyer in me, I would direct your attention to, uh, the final page and the footnote. Um, there's one footnote in this document,
but I think it's an extremely important footnote um because I think it tells the tale that needs to be told about uh how salaries have impacted you. You want me to get there too, Joe? Whatever you want to do. Try to get there.
You got it. So, uh, on page 14, you'll see a footnote that talks about what the, um, 2024 municipal salary ranges are for, um, several of the key leadership administrative roles. And you'll see
across the board and without exception each of the um director or you know director level roles um we are exceeding in excess what
the um typical range is um uh in in this state and I think that if you look at that and I guess piggybacking off of what Mr. Charles just raised. If you look at our police department, it's a good example of how
it is um leadership uh heavy with two deputy chiefs and a chief who I I don't I'm math is not my suit. Um but if you look at the salary ranges for police chiefs, uh according to the League of
Municipalities, 166,000 to 188,000 is the range. Yet our uh police chief enjoys a salary um in excess of 300,000 when you consider the
457b plan and all the other benefits. And uh when when you think about the fact that that chief then has two deputy chiefs who are both paid in excess of what the average chief is paid in this state, you understand that there's a
police department that has um very highly compensated leadership and is dealing with an overtime um issue. You'll remember on Friday I raised um
the question with uh the fire chief around how he was so successful in reducing his overtime budget and he said it was as a result of staffing. I would submit that in this township it would be very difficult to remain within the
budget permitted for the police department with the um with the costs of the leadership. it would be very difficult to then um increase the number of police officers as a result of um the
extra salaries that we we afford our leadership there. And I think if you look at the budget as a whole, what you'll find is that in each of the departments, um the and it's not just the department head, but it's also their assistant is
um highly compensated and we might suggest overcompensated and then that is both to the um detriment of their department and also to the taxpayer. So, it's something I think that um we need to consider as a community if we're going to continue to um compensate at
this rate what that means then to the taxpayer and to the remainder of the services. I would just um add one other point for the council. Um I I think it's uh worth expressing that
we are seven people on this um board who are very different. We approach matters differently. Um we prioritize differently. Some of us are more conservative. Some of us are more radical progressive. Um it was a
pleasure working with this this entire um uh board. I will tell you I I think we approached our task and really had no trouble boiling this down to one voice. um uh with concerns for how taxpayers
are um shouldering, you know, the burden particularly in a year that um we've just gone through the uh revaluation and um have you know some significant tax implications with the schools. So, I
just I I think it um I think we set a strong example for how your appointees worked together um for the benefit of the taxpayers. So, that's I think where I would leave that.
Thank you, Miss Bennett. And what I think we'll do since we have you here in person is go through uh the priorities of each uh member of the board such that we're not going to necessarily discuss
sort of the next steps on some of these issues raised, but just to get them out there and if we have time left over, we'll talk about them. If not, we'll we'll come back to them perhaps at the next meeting. That works for everybody. Mr. Dovi, thank you. Um
given my background in real estate um I tend to focus on real estate oriented matters and uh as a board we've we did focus and address uh a couple areas that are more real estate oriented that are
uh needing attention in terms of being able to generate revenue, reduce debt. Um, one of those items is, uh, Rockspring Golf Course. Um, uh, we have received some updated
revenue information, uh, produced by Keer. Um, and that gives us the income that the township is receiving from Keer and that operation. Um what we still need and uh I've discussed this with the
CFO and we're going to sit down and get that information but we need debt information. We need to understand what the current debt balance is, what the annual interest expense is on it and also what the principal amortization is. So we understand that from a cash flow
standpoint. Um I think as a group we've discussed different ways of potentially increasing revenue. Um lots of us have different ideas about what how to go approach
that. I think there's a consensus though that the hospitality side of that business is not being achieved. Um and we also believe that the probably the rationale for that is um the amount of time that
has been given in terms of the length of the contract for the operator is not sufficient for them to justify putting capital improvements into the property. Um when the property was first purchased, I believe the township did
put in a couple million dollars into capital improvements. Um, we also need to track the capital improvements too, um, that have been put in from inception all the way to present. Um, and,
um, what also needs to be addressed is putting out an RFP for uh, because the contract is up soon. Um, I think there's a a year left or maybe not even. um and
putting it on an RFP so that uh we can have a competitive process which competitive processes I think are essential for the township's operation of its business because when you avoid a
a competitive situation without the competition there's there's less reliability in what you're being presented. by whoever's been selected. Um, and we've seen that with the downtown and which is the other
project that I think also needs to be addressed and I think everybody realizes that. Um, we haven't really gotten into that in depth in the in the report, but that's a much more complex situation
obviously. Um, but as far as Rock Spring goes, we do believe that there are opportunities to enhance the situation there and enhance the cash flow and revenue generated for the township. Um,
and we'd be looking to put out a longer term period for any operator so that they can advertise and justify the expenses put into the property. Um, and that pretty much sums up my perspective.
Thank you, Mr. Dowy. Mr. Libino. Thank you, Council President. As Moll said, we each brought to this committee our own specific areas of expertise. Um, as you may or may not know, I am a CPA
licensed in New Jersey since 1972. I've been the chief financial officer in the sea suite of the different corporations over my career and have done numerous budgets and other analyticals. Um not to be redundant and in the interest of time I just want to repeat
one of the things that malared refer to which is on page eight. It's the second uh highlighted item talking about the IT departmental budgets. that one when we looked at it, the 2024
budget was 700. There's five departments that make this up as it's as the writing says. Of the $734,000 that was budgeted in 2024, only 480,000 was actually spent. Basically, six twothirds of the budget.
Yet the budget request in total for these five departments rose again to $676,000 almost $200,000 higher than actual spending. It's a lump sum number and you as a council people need to really drill
in and have that explained as to what the details are. Airpool numbers are very hard to justify and very hard to support and that's what you have here. I'm going to jump over to the other thing only one other thing that I want
to point out. Uh page 10 under financial planning item H. We were asked by this council to take a look and see whether or not there was an advantage or a reason to pursue a uh a
forensic audit. And being the CPA, I spoke to several accounting firms, came up with different ideas on it, and this is a summary as to where the thing shades out. Now, as Mr. Tatiniac knows, and it's registered as
item 123-25. It's the corrective action plan for the fiscal year 2023 annual audit issued by the outside accountants. It is a 33page document highlighting deficiencies and things that need to be
worked on. That in itself suggests that a forensic audit is appropriate and we should be going forward with it. You can see the numbers. I'm not going to repeat them, but you can see that the ranges of cost on it. There was a number early thrown out that it could that this type
of water could cost upwards of a million dollars and that's just doesn't seem to be supportive. But one of the other things uh that the forensic order would do in addition to surfacing any problems in the back is as it says at the bottom there, it's a review of internal control
systems. That's the benefit that I believe West Orange needs in order to better monitor what's going on within the financial structure and administrative structure of the township. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lip.
Mr. Algebra, please. Thank you, council president. Um, and I want to thank the entire council for uh creating the board in its current configuration. I think this is my third year on the advisory board in one format
or another. And it's really the first time that we've where things have been structured in such a way that our work actually has a chance of being integrated into the budget. in the past we've just you know met a couple of times and there was never a structure if we did have recommendations to put them
forward um and you know I agree with what Michaela was saying about us coming from different perspectives and you know yet all kind of speaking with one voice on this and you know finding a lot of commonalities um you know personally things I feel more strongly about than others there's a few in here and uh
making sure Rockspring is taken care of sooner than later is definitely one of them because we need to be cognizant of how quickly that contract runs out and how long it typically takes to get RFPs out there. Um, you know, I think we all agree that we could be doing a lot better there with, you know, everything
from a restaurant to weddings to a small boutique hotel. Not dozens of rooms, but something that would handle a wedding party and make it a destination because it's such a beautiful site with such a great view. Um couple, you know, coming from my school board background, um a
couple of recommendations near the end of the financial planning section about budgetary line items of significant dollar amounts needing to be broken down into more deeply itemized requests. Um and using that explanation for significant increases, decreases area more often. Uh points INJ at the top of
uh page 11 there. Um, you know, we would see this on the schoolboard, too, where there would be some large items that just didn't have justification for them. And often it was because the way these systems were created in older computer systems, you know, maybe decades ago that there were leftover line items and
things had to be put in those line items because there wasn't an easy way to put them in other line items, you know, and I think $600,000 for auto parts, if that's the right number, I think is a good example of this where there's probably no better way in the current system to break that down into its more component parts. But having that
attached to the budget somehow in in the notes probably in in those Excel fields for the explanations would probably go a long way to resolving some of the questions and answering them ahead of time and saving time. Um I think one other thing I want to highlight is our
top recommendation in revenue um about hiring a town planner to lead the planning department and facilitate smart development increasing revenue for the township. um you know and coming from the planning board side of things and and seeing work product and seeing from going to
league last fall and attending some planning sessions, you know, what's out there and what's being done. I I think there's a lot to be said for having a body in this building eight hours a day, five days a week running planning, taking point un because and and really
understanding our town and not being spread around other towns. um being able to understand the requests that come whether it's from other whether it's from council or whether it's from downtown alliance which I'm involved in as a volunteer begging for ordinances
that we badly need to help improve our downtown and increase revenue and increase the value of West Orange for everyone. And I think it's an important uh a very important position that's currently missing for us. And I think
those are my highlights. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Albert. Uh I can see that uh there's a couple of members still not here, Miss Bear and uh Mr. Bril. So I guess we can move on or from that and I guess they could come uh
to another workshop and uh plead their case uh as the case may be. I'd like to just come back to uh Mr. Charles, you had talked a little bit about the budget process schedule and uh uh and then also about the looking at uh public safety
and overtime. As everybody I I think knows, we got the budget, we the council got the budget from the mayor very late this year, uh April, I think it was 14th. Um,
and that of course is a cascade of of what follows because now we're at at one point the state actually was threatening the council members with individual fines if we didn't get the budget introduced. But I just wondered if you might want to just highlight a a couple
of things. You mentioned that uh in in your position now you're already working on next year's budget and uh so perhaps for some insight two or three points of insight why that's important and uh and then we can talk a little bit
about uh the overtime. Okay. Uh sure. Um, so on the county level, and it's actually mentioned in in the report through the timeline, it talks about September, October to start the budget for for the for the following year. And that's exactly what we're recommending.
That's what we're doing on the county level. Um, this way the department heads have the budget. they can see what the following year's goals are far far as a department or a division or
as a unit depending on how big they are. Um and it it sets like the goal setting for the year, right? Um and then come October, November, that should be submitted to to to the CFO and then that process of of of reviewing. I I just
think that handing it over March or April puts us puts a puts everyone in a hole and we're we're we're not digging out of that hole. The other part too is that the workshops I mean this is workshop like 12 or and we have another one coming up
this week. We have there there's a better process than that if you actually than you know might be the most important words anybody says at our workshop today. And I mean on a county level, we do each of the our workshops are I get it. They're 20 25 minutes long for each department
with with with the commissioners, right? So maybe that could be done over two or three days or two or three meetings as opposed to 12 tonight. We're probably looking at like 15 when we're all when we're all done, right? And that's just that's bad
for the administration. That's bad for the town council. It's bad for for the public. like the the dragging that out. And I think that's coming out of the hole of whether we don't start until back in March or March or April. if
we're starting uh to look at things in Octoberish, Septemberish, then the ball's rolling, you know, and um I I do I do think that the the CFO and and the business manager, they I've expressed that to them and I and I think that they
are looking to correct correct some of that. Um the the other part of that too is I think the upgrade for lack of a better word in software um or in that's going to help greatly like some of the things that we
saw as far as line items the mulligan stew uh stew uh quote I think that was um something that we want to try to avoid if possible uh and I think the CFO has a pretty good handle on once the software comes in upgrading to that and
and that's going to uh the business manager run on a more effective operation for the for the town as well. The the recall of the data um is is going to probably be at a press of a button. the the need for managing the or
department heads to to manage you know on datadriven uh research I think that's going to help help us well and I think as a budget process and all I think I hope to be in a better spot next year timing wise that's that's what I
sounds good on the on the other issue of public safety and the the overtime I I agree with you that I think the focus should not on the dollar amount. It's a contractual issue. If we have to
pay overtime, we have to pay overtime. And it's not anything that any of us can do to actually cut a number in the budget because it's all going to depend on uh what is the outcome. And I think what we need to do, as you were pointing out, is focus on the hours and we need
to focus on the income. and income by in terms of the process that creates the financial obligation and see if there's a way to make that more efficient. You had mentioned something in the report when I say you I mean the board about
using the pitman process and you don't have to go into it in detail here but is there uh two or three elements of the pitman process that you think are uh particularly important and insightful uh as we consider where to go next? So the
pitman is is more for it. The fire department uses sort of like a pitman schedule. That's just alternative schedule that may that may come out of an analysis that I'm certainly uh recommending. There may be a four and
four schedule. There may be a five and three schedule. There may be a 21 day cycle. There's all different alternative forms to to scheduling. And I think that I don't know if the uh if the chief or the assistant chief have taken a look at that. I know that that was part of I think the RFP that was presented like
two or three years ago. I think that's something that um that may need to we look at look at it again. And I mentioned before about tracking a more accurate number on the overtime is is is the hours right because each year they're going up 3% 4% 5% rate. So the
so when you look at the million million one for overtime when you're looking at like oh that's a big number right that's a real but h how do you know that right it is it may be that that's a good number right it may that that they reduced it by 20% or 15%. And at the
time we didn't have the figures in front of us. And so that's what the report talked about. But once we got the numbers, we looked at the numbers over over three years and I think it was like one three one one year one two and and this year they're close to the 700,000 I think already already spent, right? So
that one one of overtime is not a far off number, but there's there's ways of looking at that. Is that an increase in 20% in hours? Is it a decrease in hours? Are they managing it the best best way possible? Certainly. Certainly being a
public safety uh professional for 40 years. I I'm not publicly or any uh privately calling for a reduction in police or fire or any of that. I just think that has to be a little bit more better managed, right? And from a fiscal
standpoint and uh maybe a capital and that that type of way. Okay. And Mr. Mr. Smaldo, not to put you on the put you on the hot seat, but you ran the fire department for quite a number of years. Uh, so you were dealing with this quite a bit. Is there anything
that you might suggest that we, meaning the council, and I guess the administration, too, look at going forward on both fire and police. So, Mr. Charles is correct. We did put out an RFP a couple years ago. I wasn't involved with it. I know that we put it out. We received them. I can't give you an answer as to why it wasn't awarded.
Um but I know that looking at the different schedules through the years um one of the things that we have that I mentioned before is there are some contractual obligations and there's comp time that which is a federal federal fair labor standard act uh federally enacted law that you know we have to pay
as you you indicated. Um I know that the chief was looking in the fire department said the fire chief was looking at the um a reduction with the additional staff members last year which is significantly cut cut the overtime this year which is I think reflected in the current budget.
Um and today I actually received from one of the deputy police chiefs I I forwarded later this afternoon to you. I don't know if you had a chance to re review it. One of the things I looked at was the bottom line was the hours and the hours have been reduced from 23 to 24 and we're still working on the 25 to
figure out what that's going to be. So I agree with Mr. Charles hours is hours. It's it's not so much what you can um what you're going to be spending. It's what is and what are the services that we need for those hours. There may be things such as additional patrols
needed. It may be things that there's hurricanes and snow events and and weather related events that we just can't predict. So there's there's certain things there's certain uh functions that are out of the control of the chief, but there are certain aspects that can I will tell you from my
perspective when I was running the fire department. One of the things I was able to bring down which I was glad to bring down because that was my orders was to reduce sick time. We reduced sick time by a ton as and what we did was we put in policies and procedures to to um
prohibit to prevent excessive absenteeism due to sick because that does drive overtime. That drives overtime, right? Because of min Yeah. Because of minimal staffing and things of that nature, which was fine, but then people took comp time. They started using comp time in lie of
sick time. So, um you know, so there there are drivers that, you know, there there's cause and effect. though we did reduce the sick time but and incidents and the biggest thing was incidents wasn't so much the hours cuz if a person calls out sick for 4 hours or 24 hours it's still one incident it was reduction
of incidents and um and the uh the amount of time that they were using the sick time for. So that was one of the big drivers. Yeah. So the the other thing that uh it's driving in public safety too is the FMLA, right? So I don't on on a county
level, county county level, we we've hired um a firm who tracks the uh FMLA. In my department, I have 9 like 62 employees. I have 142 who are out on FMLA,
right? That's a significant number, right? If you couple that with with the averaging 68 sick calls a day, it's hard to staff the the correction officials at those numbers. So, we had to bring in people uh on a county level that are are
are the FMLA being are they being is it being abused? Right? Are the doctor notes accurate? Certainly, if someone needs FMLA, I'm not saying or suggesting. Um but some of that goes to management, right, of of that. Um, and then the comp time, you know, the
federal laws 480. My my guys, I'm sure the police are fired, they're using that. If they're earning it in one week, they're probably taking it a week or two later, right? It's it's just it's a hard management of of of personnel both
on a public safety level. But, um, I think that managing that and knowing the numbers, I think that that that's important important important as well, right? Because listen, there may there may there may have been an incident, you know, god forbid if we have another co 19 incident, right? That's going to
drive up the overtime hours or or for a lot of things, right? But I think that when you when you ask or look for that those things from a chief or assistant chief or command staff level say, "Hey, listen. We have we're we're over 22%
this year of of overtime or we're projecting over 22%. But 19% of that is because of X factor or or or C factor or whatever. But knowing that, I think that's the management tool that maybe we
can fine-tune, you know, and and and get some of that to be pulled in line. Mr. Can we can we pull together all of that data right now in terms of the source of of overtime uh among some of
the items that you and Mr. Charles I I would have to ask the police and fire chief. I'm assuming that the fire has still has that kind of data because like like he was saying one of the things is there's contractual obligations such as personal days, sick days, vacation days and and actually for
even some of the older more senior firefighters is seniority days. So those are contractual obligations. Um so I'm sure they have that fair readily available and and I'm assuming that the police have it. So I can ask them to see if we can provide that data for you. So
Mr. Zinak, is any of the new IT coming in? Is that going to help us with that with this particular issue? So, the the new Edmond system, which is going to replace our current um purchasing and and financial software
package, isn't going to have the the detail level um necessary to say, you know, what was really generating the overtime. Was it callouts? Was it minimum staffing? Was it an emergency? That would be more the Prime Point
system that we're putting into place. Um, so right now the uh the fire department uses Planet, right? No, it's police uses Planet. What does fire use? Um, I think I believe they're using an internal which we created one years ago
or so. They may be using another platform, but they they had they had internal Yeah. processes they did. So, you know, so we're going to have an integration between their system and Prime Point at least in the first phase of uh of bringing Prime Point on. But hopefully
we can explore that data and and I mean I talked to um the the police chiefs. I I think they can give us that information of what generates that overtime. But I mean I I'll say I'll I'll echo it's it's a worthwhile
um and a necessary uh exercise to see you know what's generating and what are the solutions versus you know just saying to cut it like you said you can't just cut it you know but what can we do from a staffing perspective what can we do from a scheduling perspective like
you brought up pitman I think that's all necessary information that's not going to just help you know this budget or next year's budget budget. It's, you know, it's going to have long-term implications. So, you know, I I I support that uh initiative um from CBA.
We do, too. You know, the administration is always on board with whatever we can do to save time and and and you know, one of the big things, too, is when people are out and they're sick, we want to get, you know, make sure that their well-being is there, too. They may have been injured on the job. you know, we when we when we have a lot more people off, we put our we put
our staff that is working uh we're working them harder so that they're more prone to injuries and more prone to, you know, being on the job a lot longer. So, we want we want to see them, you know, we want we want them to operate as efficiently as we possibly can. The the one thing I will add um and I've
done it with Prime Point and I know um that it's been used this way. I mean, you can label the type of overtime. So you can say it's a short shift over time or you can say it's a a hold over overtime or you you know
you can put all the the fields in place. You just have to track the data properly and you know whoever's entering it on the fire side is going to have to or police side is going to have to make sure that those fields get utilized. But it's certainly possible. Um but it's
going to take uh you know effort between us and the other departments on how to properly track and utilize it. I'm sure internally they track but I mean what gets to us when we process overtime for you know each bi-weekly payroll.
Councilman Scarpa uh I was going to ask the question John Diniac just answered. Can't we assign some kind of codes and then sort them like you do on an Excel spreadsheet? So thank you very much. I hope we can do that as soon as possible.
Yeah. I mean, we what we want is as little like human input as possible. We want it to be automated and and tracked properly so that, you know, we're eliminating as much as we can the sort of human
inputting mistakes and um so it's certainly something that uh we'll make a priority with with Prime Point. That's good. We've got about maybe six or seven minutes. Oh, Councilwoman, I'd like just like to move on to a different topic because some of this is
long-term we analysis that we can't really impact right now in our budget hearing. So, if I could move on to like what we can do that's relevant right now. Sure. I was going to uh I think this is great because the report itself which is
very insightful it's it's not as deep as we need to go to try to realize some of the expectations and and suggestions in the report. So I like this being able to talk about and I hope uh we we don't have that much more time to come back to
this uh at our next workshop. But I want to follow up on this Bennett because uh one of the things she mentioned was the uh market basically market survey of salaries and compensation and we appear to be you know significantly over in a
number of of uh director levels and compensation is notoriously sticky upwards. you just you hardly ever hear of anybody actually being able to reduce the cost that you're spending either at a an organizational level or at an
individual. So I just wondered have you guys had a chance to talk about how we do this other than when the person leaves uh we reduce the uh the salary ordinance so that it doesn't happen in the future. But I just wondered if you
guys had any thoughts about how to actually effectuate this. Going to try to be the kinder, softer, and gentler Michaela Bennett right now. Um, well, thank you for the question, uh, Council President, because, uh, I did want to come back. I do think it's
important. Um, that footnote on page 14, I I think we should all be thinking about that as a symptom. um of a larger problem. So if you I know of, you know, I know in my own
household, in my own place of business that we have to be uh financially frugal, live within our means, budget when we need to, and I know of no place except West Orange where we pay exceptional rates for substandard
performance or uh qualifications. And I would suggest that that's what we do here and that that needs to be um considered and uh administration um administrations
put the leaders that they choose into positions and um look there's a fast and easy way for the taxpayers of this town to make sure that we pay market rate rather than a premium. Um and you know
in my mind that would mean a change of administration but um I I I think it's most important to just come back to basics and understand that financial wellness and the need for a
forensic audit. I'm so grateful, Phil, that you raised that because it isn't the it isn't the gotcha um opportunity to figure out who spent
what and where that I think is the real value for this township to go through the undertaking of um the forensic audit. I think it is the deterrent impact and the ability to understand
where to focus our corrective actions. Everyone who takes a position in this township should understand that the taxpayers care how our money is spent and that
we are not the cash cow for a bunch of um close individuals to enrich each other. So, uh, it's probably not the answer you were looking for, Council President, but I'm grateful that you gave the opportunity because in each of these
instances, as Mr. Charles points out, it is how something is managed or mismanaged um that leads us to the place that we are at right now. And so, the cure
is to manage correctly. There is a there is an available cure and it is to live within a budget, to be conservative where you can be and
um to spend in ways that enrich the lives of the people here in this town. So, I mean, I think I'll leave it at that. Thank you, uh, Councilwoman Scarpa. Yeah, I had a couple things if we're
kind of uh moving around more broadly. Um I wanted to ask the um Citizens Budget Advisory Board. Um if they welcome the idea of a working group to look at managing our Jity maybe more
efficiently. I know that that's been um something that we've wanted to look at for a while and we really need to work on the revenue side of our budget and uh I think we have talked about perhaps you know maybe small contribution to offset
some of the costs. I really think that um they're growing and that's something we need to look at. Also in terms of revenue generators, um some of our engineering services, our ordinances and some things related to
planning, we could be charging um you know better fees kind of like Verona does on storm water for some of these reviews and services that are costing us a lot of money particularly as we embark on a lot more commercial real estate development. um the developers really
need to be uh footing the bill for some of these um services. So I just kind of want to hear what they think about those two things. Anyone just raise your hand? I mean I have something to say about the Jitney and the writership very very briefly. Um council president
please just just to I don't mean to be mean but please raise your hand so that everybody doesn't talk at once. It's much easier to follow. Thank Just a very brief response uh to council person Scarpa. Um I think I think it's a great
idea to to to have a citizens group aboard looking at specific issues like the Jity. I and I would suggest that the Jity is a perfect example of where the idea of having wrership um afford the
cost of the Jity uh might be balanced also with not providing these free rides that are costing um in excess and overtime if the Jity ridership is how the schedule is planned but there are um
rides let's say for seniors to events that end up costing ing overtime. I think we really need to look at that piece as well. So, um but I don't I I do agree with you that um there are many uh Rockspring is another good example, the
Jity wrership to have a um uh an advisory board that extends into areas that you would like explored. I think it's a good idea. Okay, great. Thank you. So, we have reached uh 7 o'clock and uh
that's given us about 45 minutes to to talk about this. I uh I I regret that we we really need to move on to uh going back through the actual budget, but if if anyone is available to come to the next meeting uh the next excuse me
workshop or even if you want to do it online if that's technically possible uh we would love to continue the discussion because I think there's a lot of uh thought that you guys had that did not make it into the report. So, we'd like to sort of pick your brain uh on on
various areas uh if we can at the next time. Excuse me. Uh sound like a plan. Yeah. Yeah. I'd just like to know who is staying today. We haven't discussed that yet. Okay.
But it's a gate decision. All right. So, um, I'd just like to to kind of ask for your help because, you know, we're up against department heads and nobody wants to cut anything in
their budget and one of the big issues that we have discussed and that you have recommended is OT and on that there is a significant push back in getting that. So, I'd like your advice tonight when we deal with that, on how to deal with that
considerable push back and whether or not it's advisable to push back on that push back. Mr. Charles, so we haven't decided who's going to stay tonight, but but we'll discuss that I guess at break time. Um, one of the
things I I think being as department head in the county that I would suggest both to the administration and the town council when you're looking at a department's budget, I think it's very important to have the department head here because he or she may have some
significant expertise or knowledge that people in the room do not have a particular item. It's easy to pick and choose some of the the lowhanging uh fruit per se, but that that may be crucial to his
or her operation. I think to be fair and balanced, the director should be here and they should have and I know the clerk last week or the meeting that I was here, the clerk, she explained why um she was against cutting uh the budget uh her overtime budget
even though it it was a significantly low number in my opinion. I think it's important to have them there because they may be able to articulate why the overtime has been high, why it's been high for
that particular year and why they need the money. And you know, eventually I think the administration and town council will have to make a decision on on on lowering it or or not. But I I think it all goes back to also having them here
and to managing the overtime. If if we're talking about overtime, you know, the way the way it's managed, right? If if it's just willy-nilly, you you you don't know. You don't know. Maybe he he or she is doing a great job of running the department. Maybe that person
the overtime if he's not managing it or she's not managing it should be two times that. But I I think the tracking of the data needs to be better, right? And that's a significant improvement. You know, we may be we may be having a
recreation department who who who should the overtime should be 10fold, but he's doing a great job of keeping it where it is. Or it might be worse. He may be he may be spending 20fold when he could be managed a different level. So I think that that one having them here is important. Okay. To explain that and two
um the tracking of the data or an analytics of that is is is important. That's all I have on top. Mr. Can I just just add to that? Um, you know, the process of having um
department heads come and meet with us and and you the council is to educate um us with what their business is about, what's involved. Um it's it's not to
point fingers, it's not to place blame. Um if there is blame or pointing of fingers then there's typically reasons for that but that's not the purpose of the process and the process is to better understand what those individual
businesses are doing and what they need and so that whatever decisions are made to create efficiencies in those groups are done as a as a cooperative process rather than an adversarial one where
people are just biting heads. is that's not the intent and if if anybody listening to these workshops will see um most of the time any discussion starts with questions of the department heads
to better understand so that whatever recommendations we may come up with are suited for the specific situation. So I just th fig I'd throw that out there. Okay. Thank you. And again, I thank you
for the report. It's it's really amazing if you look at this how quickly you guys put this together. And uh it's it's just I can't say thank you enough. Uh this is the first year the Citizens Budget
Advisory Board, which had uh a much different a much more in-depth charge in the ordinance. And uh I think it's a really good sign of of where we're going. Uh, I just wish we had more time now, but maybe now is a good time to
perhaps take a a break because we want to move people around and and you guys need to decide who you want to be part of our process up here in the day. And uh maybe we'll take 10 minute break. Does that sound good? Mr. President, before we take a break,
I'd just like to point out that in terms of future meetings where you want to bring the uh CBAB uh into meetings uh remotely, we we we can bring them in uh the individuals in that is just in in the same manner that we bring in uh Councilwoman Scarpa, who by the way just
raised her hand. Oh, so I just want to make that point. Councilwoman Scarpa. Yeah. Before we take the break, I just wanted to ask Mr. Daniac to um have the numbers for us of exactly where we are with the budget, you know, when we come
back. Yes, we'll we'll have um where we are with all the voted on cuts and uh what that means for the average home. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. We'll be back in uh
in 10 minutes back at 7:21. So members of the Zoom audience, I will be putting us on mute. Welcome back, West Orange, to those in the Zoom audience, and thank you for your patience. We are uh going to resume
the uh budget workshop, and at this time, I'd like to turn the floor over to our council president. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Fagan. Uh we are waiting for Mr. Diniac to complete his IT preparation from having to move uh from
his previous spot on the deis. And uh it's quite important because we need to have that data up on the screen. Council President, if I could, um, for the the public watching at home, um, we were just reviewing the 2025 citizens
budget advisory board preliminary report to Township Council. Again, that's on the website. Go to West Orange, go to the finance department and the budget section, and you will see the citizens budget advisory board preliminary report. U, but now we're moving on to
the municipal budget as of July 22nd, 2025. This is the document we've been using for the last few um uh budget hearings. Um before we begin, I wanted to just do
a recap of um you know where we were when we introduced at about uh I'm going to go to my Excel here. Um we introduced at uh $994 on the average home. That's the
municipal uh increase and the library increase. Again, we don't have control over the library increase. That's set by the third of a mill calculation. Um but for all intents and purposes, the municipal
purposes uh increase includes it. Um so we've had uh an additional at least, you know, in terms of the council vote. We haven't put this to a true amendment yet, but um we've come up with an additionalund about $149,000 in
appropriation cuts and that reduces that um uh that increase on the average home by about $9.17. So, um, the last few budget hearings where we've gone back and we've made
additional changes, um, have gotten an additional $9.17 off of the municipal increase. And again, it's about $149,000. Um, so every 100K reduces
um the, uh, increase on the average home by about $6. So it's general rule of thumb. So just just for perhaps accountants who don't live in the town, what would be the percentage uh decrease that we have
uh obtained so far um just overall not not by the average house but it seems to me we've we've reduced it by at least 400 basis points. Yeah, definitely. Um uh that's a true statement. So the proposed
uh the initial um budget document from April uh proposed an increase of 6.02%. And what we introduced at was basically a flat 2% so 402 basis points. Um and
now we're sort of chipping away uh with these additional cuts. So, um, from where we were in April to what we introduced at on July 22nd, we've gone down 400 basis points on the, uh, on the municipal increase. So, we were at $243
on the average home. We went down to $80 on the average home. And with the amendments, proposed amendments, we're now down to like, let's say, $71 in the average home. Councilman Scarpa, does that give you the information you were looking for a
little while before the break? A little previous to the break. It does. I thought we were at 6.4 originally. I didn't realize we were at 6.02. Is did I hear that correctly? Yeah. So, what we introduced at was I
mean um what we what we started at our first iteration was 6.02%. Okay. And and now what is our overall where are we? So we started at $243 on the average home. No, I mean on the overall on the overall
um decrease. Are we down to 2%? Are we down to 1 point something percent? Where are we? We're 2%. At this point with the proposed amendments we're at 2%. Below 2%.
Below. Okay. Do you have you don't have the exact number? Uh well say that's what I was actually looking for. I actually am keeping tabs on where we need to go to get to zero if you want to
know my thinking. So if you want to get to zero oh what am I doing? There we go. What's the dollar amount that we need to get to cut to get to zero at this point by six?
Yeah, you're looking at like 1.1 million. We still need a million. Okay. Yeah. All right. Councilman Ruden. So, I just wanted to say that so far with all of these hearings, we've saved
the average taxpayer $172 in taxes through these hearings. and we hope to save more. Thank you. All right, Mr. Diniac, you have the con back. Thank you for that update.
Thank you. So I believe we left off. Um we left off on page 893 with the health budget. We were going through that.
I'm sorry. What page? So So page 93, we had an amendment vote. Correct. But if you want to revisit it, so I have on page 93 and 94 to remove
18,000. And we voted two to one, correct? To remove it. So are we revisiting or council president? That's okay. I I uh I I don't think that I have any other
power or authority than to just reopen and and come back. We can do this if that's what you were asking. Um yeah, we were just there and Councilwoman Ruden has expressed uh an interest in further discussion. Uh
if this is the correct page, I think we should uh move ahead with uh asking Councilwoman Ruden to tell us what she's what's on her mind. Okay. And also we have Mr. Fonino here. So did you want to present before I make
a request? I I don't really have anything further. I I sent you some uh information through Mr. Smar though. Yes. with some statistics that you guys requested. So unless you have any questions, I don't have anything else to present.
I mean, I do want to say and and I think CBA actually I I really like the point that they put in about justifying the significant um items. Um that that's totally
understandable. We should be doing that. So I I will bring the three big well two big items that I know we need to budget for and I think director Fonzian will back me up on this in in the Essex Health uh Essex Regional Health Commission. We have a $20,000 contract
for the health officer. Um we're going to need that 20,000. Correct. Yes. And then we have a $7,825 contract for the air pollution. We're going to need that. We've already paid two quarters of that. And then for the
Garden State laboratories, um that's it's $5,000 a year. Right. We're paying 5,000 1250 a quarter. Yes. Right. Okay. So, so before we go any further, I just want to make sure I understand
what's going on. I appreciate Mr. Fonino coming back. He sent us a men through Mr. Moraldo talking about the uh rodent uh elimination program on properties in
the town that are either owned or operated by the township. Did I get that right? And it it also had uh data on the complaints that have been made about uh rodents. That's correct. I I what I gave you the
data I gave you was townwide um and I indicated in the memo. It's very hard to drill down on township owned properties with this software we're currently using, but going forward, we have a parcel based software, so it'll be a lot easier. Uh, I know that doesn't give you the information right now. Um, but the
other thing to consider and is hard to really track is, you know, I could be on a on a a you know, a 123 Main Street. I'm just making that up. and there could be a stream adjacent to that property that is having a problem with rodents
that we then in fact would be able to um you know exterminate or you know put bait as a a proactive approach. Um but I couldn't necessarily track that parcel of land. So it's some of the data is hard to really drill down on. So I I did
my best to give you what I could give you. The the numbers are at least for me were eye opening. But I just wanted to make sure we're put everything in context. Now, Mr. Dinak, you just started going through some line items uh for the budget, right?
And I'm just trying to get a context of why we're going through them unless you've already had a conversation with Councilwoman Ruden and so you guys are, you know, trying to to push the information out so that we can all figure out what's going on and what we
need to do. Is that is that Yes. is what I heard because you I think you mentioned three different line items. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I just Whoa, we're going too far for the public. Um, sorry. All right. So, the reason I highlighted
is because I think it's good that we came back to this. I I would say we have to put a little bit more money back in here. Um because I think we took 18,000 out at the end of Friday and that would leave us with and you guys can do the
math if I'm doing it wrong. 31 68463, right? We took 18,000 out. Well, I'm saying contractually we need to have 32825 in here um for just the health officer, just the air pollution, just
the laboratory. Right. Right. So I that's like a bare minimum to pay our our and I'm not saying just leave it at 3285. I'm just saying bare minimum to pay those contracts. We have to have
that in there, right? Um so I think we need to course correct and you know we have these contracts whether we like it or not.
um we already paid half the year on them. Um so I'm saying we need at least the 32.85 in there um to pay these contracts. Okay. So So just to put it in context for everyone, at the last budget
workshop, uh I believe the council voted two to one to take out the $18,000. Did I do I remember that correct? Yeah. Okay. And and now Mr. Tin is coming back and saying we actually need to put some of that money back. Now I Yeah, I would say put it back.
Okay. So I I'll get to you just a second. Just a second. I just want to understand where we're coming from. And then the partial issue I think is is you have to have more votes to put money into the budget than you do to take it out. So do we have
we have a quorum of three now? You need everybody to agree. Yeah. Okay. All right. So for that context now I think we need to go to Councilwoman Ruden so she can carry us from here and then you guys can respond. Is that Yeah. Is that what we've been doing? Yeah.
Okay. Okay. So I just want to go through these line items for printing. We have spent to date 319 or the department has um and line item 030 030
for Essex County Regional Health. Um the ask was 35 but they actually need to just as Mr. Datiniac was was saying they need to um have to to cover air pollution license health um official and
that's 27825 for the laboratory contract that needs to stay where it is. the office supplies which is 110 they've only spent $189 and for EIG enforcement they've spent
$489 but it does not seem to be for EIG enforcement um it was for Amazon orders and business cards so maybe that can be reortioned somehow so the total that has
been or needs to be spent is 28,82 22 and we we um initially had a budget of 49. So it's the difference between those two that should be the actual budget
and I have to just do that math. So last time we had um cut it 19,000. Is that right? We cut 18,000. 18,000. So
taking the the um uh the the budget advisory council's advice that if money has not been spent and it's at zero to keep it at zero. If the money's been spent, we're going to keep it. and to remove $20,862.
But I I think just because that's a weird number and it could go up to 21, just remove $20,000 from this budget and that will cover the absolute necessity of what is being what is being requested and what needs to be covered.
Okay. I'm sorry. I I don't understand this. We cut 18. Now you're talking about cutting another 20,000. No, it should be 20 alto together because we went we went through we went through all of the items in for 112, 113, 114, 115,
116, 117, 118, 119. They're all zeros. Nothing has been spent. So, and there were budget requests for each of these. So, I'm I'm asking to take out all of that. So, that's what it seems like the the amount should be. I I don't know how I'm going to operate.
I really don't I I you office supplies I mean the year's not over yet. I I went back and if if if I could council president um I went back at at your request um and I should have mentioned this earlier and
I looked at because I did mention during both the previous two budget hearings that I offsetted a lot of operating expenses with grants between 2021 and 2024. I went back and looked at those
savings to the township and I'm going to just and I could send you this so you can see it, but um so in in one grant I saved the town in
operating and then that includes office materials, supplies, equipment and uh monthly cell phone and and uh MiFi service $23,683.58. That's in one one Department of Health grant and another uh grant. Um and and
this includes office supplies, medical materials and supplies, medical waste disposal, and other equipment that we had to acquire. $43,9281. Grand total $66,776.39.
So I was trying to do the right thing and saving the township the money. Now I'm being penalized and being cut for for trying to do, you know, an offset with grant money, the responsible fiscal responsible thing to do. Now those
grants are gone. I can't use, you know, that that money, those monies have come and and went. Now, how am I supposed to run the department with with a stripped down budget? I mean, any money we're not we don't spend will come back. I mean, I've But how am I going to get that
money back if I run out? Can you explain Can you explain to me why you're why you are paying for MiFi and cell phone when we have another budget that is covering for Miffi and cell phone? It would off it offsets that that budget.
You've been sp sending money to the township for my from the grants. I have not heard that at all, Mr. Dutiniac, because our our bill is is over $10,000 a month. I've never seen an offset charge the u received from the
health department. I guess in the past it was charged to a grant. I don't know what's happening now, but just backing up, just doing the simple math for the three items that I I I noted that are just contractual, forgetting
about anything else that the department does or needs to buy. Um, we need $32,825. And, you know, with the original cut of $18,000, we're in a $1,140 deficit just for those three items. And
if you cut it more, it's more of a deficit. So I I I don't know. I just plead for the council to just do the right thing and and put this budget back
to where it's it's manageable for the department to do their work. Again, it's 20k to for a health officer, 78.25 for the air pollution, and 5,000 to Garden State Laboratories. That's just three items. the three biggest
well I don't know how to deal with you know the recommendation that if it zero has been spent too date that's not to say that you won't get money we're going to be starting again with the budget in September and in September if you tell us that you need more money we will budget for it but we're looking at right
now where we are and what is actually needed again as the other department has it said we're I'm operating off a temporary budget So, I'm I'm I'm pulling money out of other accounts because I don't have money in the accounts to spend right now. Well, what else do you need besides what
has already been spent? That's I mean, I'm just looking at the items. If the if if the line item has zero and we're looking at signs and posts or decals and it's zero and it was zero last year,
too. Why would we continue? Are you saying you need a little bit of money to to buy for something that you don't know what it is right now? Because in the line items that we were given for the past two years, there has been no spending, right? And I I attribute some of that to
to offset with grants. Um some of these items like signs, maybe I didn't have to order signs last year or the year before. Huh? Or the year before. It's possible. I I I'm not looking at the UV fluid. I don't have it in front
of me. Okay. So, we made a we made a reduction of I mean you you you you cut out the noise meter, right? That's out, right? The 1500 is going away for the for the
the computer software. I I don't know what what else. Well, we have a very large IT budget. So, wouldn't that be covered under the IT budget? I don't know. I It was It was always taken out of my budget.
So, I I can't speak to that. But, but that's that software is no longer that's that's going away. We're not going to be renewing that maintenance contract. I'm done. Okay. Right now, Councilman Scarpa.
Yeah. Um I since we've got Mr. Fonino here and we're doing his budget, I had brought up this idea of this supervisor for the nurses and he was going to tell us where that's hidden in the budget. I mean, that's an expense that I think,
you know, maybe we don't need to incur. teachers and nurses are professionals. I don't think they need all these levels of management. We have something coming up um for a position for 33k at our next meeting for uh a support person.
Supposedly, there is a grant. There's some money from a grant, but some of it were probably funding. I'd like him to tell us more about that. Yeah, Councilwoman, that doesn't appear in in this page. Um, we'll get to it when we get to the health center.
Could you tell me a little bit about it now? So, you know, maybe we can figure out if there's some extra money somewhere. I'm glad to order. Yeah, if if if you can do it easily. I I know you have offered to talk about it when it comes up. Yeah, that's fine.
In our process, but the councilwoman heard that and then asked if you can speak about it now. If not, we'll hold off on it. But Sure. I I I don't mind. Um Okay. Please. So I don't know John public
and Mr. Fonino just please with the air conditionings going if you could try to speak into the microphone you probably reduce the level a little bit so you can don't have to be cringing your neck. So, uh, Councilwoman Scarpa, initially,
uh, in May when I came before the council, um, I we had asked for $30,000 in line 100 on the page that's on the screen for professional services in order to fund our uh, public health
nurse supervisor, which is a statutory requirement for the the public health practice standards of New Jersey. Um just just to clarify statutory means it's required under the law. Just want to make sure everybody understands that. Okay, please go ahead.
So we we were we we had previously fund this with um with grant monies and then the federal government um rescended the grants which we have since got back. So that ask is going to be less for this
year. What is the total amount of grant money that we've gotten for that position? 24,951. Okay. So, can we keep that position to 24,951 rather than 33k?
Just the amount of the grant so we don't have to supplement it. That That's the amount that's going to fund that position that's been approved to fund that position. That's the gr the grant money we're getting. But I saw 33K on our um I I don't know
and the resolution that's coming up. What which which resolution is that? Uh for our next council meeting. Um so you're telling me that that person is going to get only the money that's funded by the grant, the 24951.
Is that No, I'm asking for the I'm asking for the difference from the from the council. Well, we don't want I don't think we should have the difference. I think we should just have that person whatever they're getting from the grant fund that you know we don't need to for especially
for one quarter. We don't need to we don't need to fund the whole 33k do we? Well the the grant the only grant only carries us through the end of March. So I'm asking you know for the remainder of the year
ender end of March next year. End of March next year. Correct. Right. So that will be in the next budget process, not 2024 because that that'll be in in 2020 2025. That'll be in 2026.
Yeah, that's okay. About 9,000. Okay, let's let's hold on. Councilwoman Scarpa still has the floor. Sorry. Yeah. No, it's Go ahead, Councilwoman Ruden. So, um, I'm sorry, Councilman Scarpa, did you
give up your floor? Yes. Okay. Are you applying for any more grants to cover some of the expenses that you you got covered in the past? So, we are we have made application for one other grant, but it's it's strictly
to fund uh salary and wage and a professional service agreement. Are there other grants that you can be applying for? Not at this time. Okay. So, how much are you losing from grants
that that has been covered up? Out of that 30,000 the grant will cover 24,951. Okay. All right. So, I guess we should drill uh go back and look at this. We had talked about the your request for
for wrath control and I read the um report that you gave and I think you you hit the problem right on the head which is that we don't know this this amount of money is intended for um public
property and we don't know by by your report whether or not the rats are on public property. You said that there were no rats in town hall. There were no rats or outside town hall. No rats at at the library. I'm not sure where else the
rats would be. They're not inside the building mate that I know of. Well, I mean they don't that hopefully not, but um they have been um outside for sure. Um but what what I'm trying to say
is like we had a problem in the parking lot behind Supreme. So the parking lot is ours. The problem was on an adjacent property. That's a situation where we could bait the parking lot to to control it. Like I was saying, I was trying to
to to say earlier was that you have to tackle this. It's a, you know, from multiple angles. So you you put the property owner on notice to exterminate. We exterminate our side of the property. You clean up the garbage. You control,
you know, those types of things. And that's what eradicates a problem, a rodent problem. It's not one, you know, it's not just us putting bait out. You have to get rid of the garbage because they're going to go for the garbage before they go for the bait. So, it's
it's a multi-step process. Okay. So, I appreciate that you put the data together. To me, it does not show that it is necessary to spend $11,000 with 69 rodent complaints 13 this year and 13 of
them being mice. Mice just live in our area and we have a lot of of feral cats that may be able to eat the the mice. Um, it doesn't seem like a lot of complaints and we don't even really know that this
is happening on public property. So, I would not be in favor of approving that authorization without better data going forward. So, that for sure I would like to remove. As for the rest of that, so that takes out $11,000 from that
request, leaving us with $38,000 of which you're saying 32 are absolutely necessary. Yes. Contractual. So, why don't we split the difference because I seeing only zeros
in these categories almost all the way down so that you have some money but but maybe just a little bit a little bit a little bit more than what we gave you last time but still
being responsive to the the zeros that we're seeing on the line items. And if you need this in 2025, we're going to be starting the budget process in another month, you request it. I just don't know if it's going to be enough. Honestly, I I I really it I'm
not comfortable with it. And I just want to make a statement that you do know that rats carry disease and it's a very serious problem that we're faced here with. And I I think by
just eliminating any control on the township side is is dangerous. I think we have a responsibility when if we have a problem in our parks or we have a problem. I understand but it hasn't been proven to us that this is happening in public
in public areas. If the data is there that it's happening in public areas that we need to address, absolutely let's talk about it. But these are just complaints that could be on Main Street due to restaurants. They're not at our public buildings, which this contract is supposed to cover.
I I understand that the data is not there, but I I wish that you would take my my professional judgment. I'm telling you there's a problem and and and it it really needs to be addressed. I I know I don't have the data, but I'm I'm
speaking from from my knowledge of of the complaints that are out there, but it says 69 rodent complaints from January 1st of this year until until July 31st. And of those rodent complaints, 13 of them are mice and the
rest are rats that could be anywhere around town. Mice are most likely in apartments and things like that. They're not really things. So then there are 56 rats that could be anywhere in town and we're going to throw $11,000 at a problem for 56 rats.
That's not Let Let me Let me just That's not rats, individual rats. That's complaints. Rat complaints. That's 59 individual rat complaints. That's not to say that that's 59 rats we're trying to bait. Okay?
And this is this is a pay as you go program. We're not prepaying. When we want them to go out and and bait, and I'm sorry, Mr. Devi, um when we want them to go bait, we will contact them and send them out and then they'll bill
us because we to be very clear, we haven't paid them anything yet. Correct. We haven't had them bait. Um and we haven't used the And what I strongly disagree with is that it is a public safety because they go into our sewers, our sewers. We own
the sewers. It's our responsibility. If they go into the sewers, they they don't walk along the street. They don't have rats don't have definitive property lines. They go wherever they want to go and they travel through the sewers, which is our responsibility. And so I disagree with you wholeheartedly that
that we, you know, this is not a public safety hazard. Okay. Mr. Debi has been very patient. So please, you had mentioned that um the rats or the mice or whatever the the the rodents
are both on town property and private property and you're trying to manage from the p from the public property, our town property. But if some of the source of this is coming from private residences or private businesses,
then it does fall on your group's responsibility to hold those private property owners accountable for not dealing with the issue that is emanating from their property. Um, and much of the cost that's involved here could actually
be on the part of the property owners rather than the township. And so if you can get a handle on on that element of, you know, on that aspect of things, then maybe this could be brought down to a dollars and cents
discussion rather than esoteric perspective and opinion. So that's a great point and we do we do hold the property owners um responsible. Like I I mentioned earlier, it's kind of you kind of have to tackle the problem from both sides. So, we we used to be
permitted to put bait in the stormwater catch basins. That was we had a baiting program and something the town did long before I I became here. Um, but the D uh doesn't allow that anymore. So, we're trying to find alternative uh methods to
support um you know the exterminations that we order because when we had a complaint in the past, we would put the property owner on notice to exterminate and then we would bait any catch basins that were nearby to a problem. We can't do that anymore. So, now the only thing we could
really do is address if there's a if there's a problem on a on a private property. um as I was speaking earlier the example um adjacent to our property or or an easement or something like that that we have control over that's where
this service would come into into play you know they they're licensed to do this work and it would be you know on a complaint driven basis so uh as Mr. Diniac said, "We're not paying anything upfront is we're paying as we go type of thing." So, um,
no, I hear you. Um, but if if there is a problem that's emanating from private property, um, I mean, you're not expected to go and spend township dollars. No, we can't do that.
Right. But they should be not just noticed but I mean held accountable and and if where possible assessed for the costs that you're incurring for the township on township property if the source of the the contamination or the
rodent problem is coming from off township property. Yeah. So, so, so the way it works is, you know, we'll go out, if we verify there's a problem, we'll we'll order an extermination and we see that through and if they don't get it, if they don't get it done and and provide us proof,
then we bring them to court. I mean, we try not to have to do that, but it has happened. Um, but pretty much people are compliant because they don't want to they don't want rats on their property, you know, nobody wants to live with that.
So, we do do our best in that regard. I did have a question. Were you suggesting um to Council Ruden, could I just I just ask that you raise your hand and be recognized just going forward, please go ahead. Um were you suggesting that that the
rats poisoning should be put in the sewers? No. What were you suggesting? What I'm saying is that the the rats are going into the sewers and they're coming from other places. So if we if they are in our in our public areas and running into the sewers, why not catch them
before they get into the sewers? No, we're not permitted to by the D to do the baiting. So we have to come up with alternatives. So we're not allowed to do that. But if they're coming off our property, we don't know where they go. We, you know, we don't know where exactly they've been. And as I said,
they they're they're wrong. You know, they go where the food source is. And it it may not be specific to one property or another, but if we can catch them prior to entering the store or taking things with them, they that that kills the colony there. Rats are not by themselves. It's a colony. And and they
and when there's I mean the adage is that when there's one, there's probably at least four or five more going along somewhere along the line. So at least that. So we so while maybe 59 reported so far, we don't know how many that could be. That could be hundreds. It may
be more. I don't know what the colonies are. Yes. But the fact is they do travel to the source system. It's an easy avenue travel. It's a highway. Okay. I still have not heard any any claims that there is a rat problem on
our public properties. I do understand that they can be coming from our restaurants or areas in downtown and that they can then, you know, go into the sewer system if possible, you know, if they if they travel that way. But it
doesn't sound like the problem is happening on municipal property. So for that reason I I do not want to support the that that that uh treatment. And I think done
if if we're finished discussing this, I there's been so many numbers thrown around that I think it's important to clarify the numbers and you know the issue that we do not have, for lack of a better term, geollocated data
of where the rats have been seen. Not that and this doesn't include any rats that have not been seen and been reported uh uh to the township. So then the the second thing it seems to me is
that this $11,000 budget item is a not to exceed amount that may not necessarily be used. We only use it as needed. Correct. So, we could have the budget item, and I
understand the budget item sticks out in a budget, but we're we've just said I I think it's we've said that we may or may not spend that money. We only spend it when we are aware of a
problem that we can address on public property. Right? So, at the last meeting, the three council members voted 2 to1 to cut $18,000 out of the budget. Mr. Diniac has come back in and said
there's something that leaves, I think, a little bit more than $1,100 that we do not have in the budget to pay contractual obligations. Is that correct? We had enough to cover. Well, just just a second. Could I just
ask Mr. Ziniac, just to make sure that we're clear on this, please. That's that's correct, Council President. Um, so we started with $49,68463 and uh we cut 18,000, leaving us with a a balance of
$31,68463. the bare minimum that we would need for this budget account. I talked about the 20,000 due to Essex Health Regional for Essex Regional Health, excuse me, for health officer, the 78.25 for the
air pollution, the 5,000 for the Garden State Laboratory, and then we've also spent in a couple of the sub accounts um a total of $67,9.36. So if we add all those items up, the
bare minimum and that this would allow um Mr. Fonino to not have another penny to spend for the rest of the year would be $33,54.36. We have a budgeted amount right now of $31,68463. So that leaves us with a deficit cuz now
I'm including the paid um against those two line items of $1,819.73. Okay. So now, Councilwoman Ruden, you're disputing those numbers. No, I'm not disputing it. I I thought that the agreed upon amount that was
absolutely necessary was about 32,000. Excuse 27,000 uh 8 uh 825 for the Essex regional, 5,000 for the laboratory contract, and
then there was another 500 for what has already been spent, although not necessarily in the in the right categories. Um well, yeah, it's 33,504. Yeah, that's right. 20,000 7825. Okay.
5,000 for the laboratory and and well it's $679 that's been spent. Okay. So that works out to be $33504. But that's the bare minimum. He wouldn't have anything left to use at all. Okay.
If if if I run out of bonded paper, we can't give people marriage certificates, death certificates, and that that $1,300 in printing is what funds that. So I' I'd hate to have to do that. Okay. And then we spend a lot of time
also talking about this $11,000 not to exceed contract to actually bring in a state agency to address the road problem. Now, is that part of the this numbers we're talking about? Because I haven't heard it. No. No, it's not even factored in. And
and honestly, council president, we couldn't even spend $11,000 um from this this budget. uh we could spend like you know we could have spent uh you know about
$7,000 with what we requested but we we wouldn't have been able to spend $11,000. Um so but this this contemplates not having any money for rat um rat rodent control.
Um, again, this is this is just bare minimum contractual obligations we have to the two agencies I mentioned. Um, and then the money we've already spent. Okay? And that gets you to the 33,000. I'm not
saying only leave Mr. Fonino with that. I'm just saying that that's what we absolutely need right now to cover what we've spent and will spend contractually. Okay. So, I think we're clear so far.
Councilman Ruden, you're also talking about, I think, taking out another $11,000 for this rodent issue. Is that I I Yes. The road issue is we haven't so far we have 33 335 and the difference now is between 49 and
33, which does not include the roads. Okay. I don't know where the 49 is coming from. We're talking about uh $33,000 in change uh of the contractual obligations. We have less than $32,000 left in the budget.
Mhm. Right. Mhm. Okay. So, what else am I missing? Then there's the $11,000 rodent control contract. Totally separate. And uh we take that out. That's that's even less money.
No, we've we've already removed it. But he's saying add it. He's saying add it back in. We've we've rem the what is left over between what is necessary and what what he originally
requested is is $16,000. I am suggesting that the 11,000 not be included in that and that would leave with that would leave Mr. Fonzino with an additional
$5,000 to spend on whatever this is, but nothing of none of these categories have been spent so far. So to me, that seems a little excessive to leave 5,000 just on the table when nothing in these categories has been
spent. Nor am I really hearing where that money is needed. And there was just a purchase for printing for those certificates that you're talking about. We just spent $319 for that paper. We go through that paper pretty quickly.
A lot of marriages. A lot of marriages. A lot of deaths. Some births here and there. Mhm. But it's it's a need. Okay. I've got another hand. Quick question. Um the grant money that you've received this this year, has that
all been spent? No. You still have some grant money available but it's allocated to certain things all of it. Yeah, it's allocated. Yeah, it's uh salary and wages and um professional service agreements.
Okay. Uh there's small amount for um equipment but Okay. Yeah. Councilwoman Scarpa. Yeah. How about um if uh Mr. Fronzino
has some savings from the um this nurse supervisor. There's he's ask was asking for 33k. If he uses just the amount of the grant 41951, he's got about $9,000 savings right there
and just cut the hours of that person. I mean, I think we should just give, you know, give them what the grant is paying for and how use the savings for something more pressing. Mr. Fon, are you aware of this this resolution that's on the agenda for the
next council meeting? It's agreement between the township of West Orange and Courtney Rhinish for appointment as the consultant public health nurse supervisor. Now, it's got a it's got a resolution number of 171-25, but we have three different resolutions
all carrying the same number 171-25. So, I don't know what's going on. I didn't know that was on and I've I've raised the issue but the the the resolution says whereas contractor included in its proposal for professional services a proposed hourly
rate of $80 per hour at approximately eight hours per week for a total of $33,280 for the term of this contract. So my first question is is this for 2025 or is this for 2026? That's for 2025 into 2026.
And this is the this is not for what we're talking about now with the health department budget. This is coming up a little bit later. Right. Yes. Okay. So, Councilwoman Scarpa is suggesting that this be in this uh proposal be involved
in our discussion about what to do with the health budget. Do I get that right here? Yes. I think there's a considerable savings there. We could apply it towards this if it's more pressing. Okay. So again, I I appreciate everybody
not going to a motion uh which starts a whole another ball rolling and I'm glad we're having all this discussion. So, it sounds like, and Councilwoman Ruden, correct me if I don't get this, but uh right now just in the health department budget,
not the other budget, health department budget, the bare minimum that we are contractually obligated to pay is roughly $1,100 more than what we have now in the budget. Is that correct?
Yeah. Again, So, so it's not true. You're saying that's not true. What we're contractually obligated to is 335 of the total budget that was requested, which is almost 50,000. Okay. But we've already taken out
$18,000. Mhm. Right. So, you keep bringing up the bigger number. That bigger number no longer exists because uh you guys voted two to1 to take out the $18,000. So, please don't bring up that number again because it just blows my mind. I I can't I literally cannot
track all of these numbers that are being discussed. That's why I'm having to go back over them. Okay. So, when Mr. Diniac says that right now in the budget we are we have a shortfall of more than $1,100 to meet the contractual obligations that the
township has. Is do you accept that? Is that correct? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Okay. Because that that sounds like what Mr. Diniac is raising the issue for because he thinks he we need to put the money back. Now over and above that, we keep talking about this $11,000
uh contract with the state agency for roading control, right? Do do I understand that? Mhm. Okay. Now, is that $11,000 is it still in the budget? No. Okay. So, it's gone. So, you're asking
for two things, I think. You're asking for the money to put back to meet the bare minimum contractual obligations. And then you're also asking to put back the $11,000 not to exceed budget for roading control on public
publicly owned and operated property. I mean, we're we're asking for for money for Mr. Fonino to be able to do the work of his department. Um, yes, we would want that 11,000 in for the rodent
control. Um, but if that's not what the council wants to do, we at least want money in there so that he can buy his supplies and and and and have some breathing room rather than having no
budget left for five months, five and a half months. So, there's actually a third ask here, I think, or potentially because the the $1,100 that you said, the short shortfall compared to the contractual obligations, that's one thing. Putting back the
$1,100 plus whatever the change is, then you're asking for an additional amount of information to basically uh fund whatever operating costs are coming up the rest of this year. Yeah. And what would be that number?
I mean, I think a reasonable cushion. I mean, I'll let Mr. Fino speak. I don't I don't want to speak for I apologize. But um I I would say an additional $5,000 just to cover, you know, these and other expenses that
might come up. Okay, so sounds like there are three asks here. One is the $1,100 and change to get to bare minimum to meet contractual obligations. Mr. Fonino says he needs an additional $5,000 for that.
And then you're also asking to put back in the 11,000 uh for the road control. Is that is that what we're looking at here? Yes. Those are the three acts. Okay. Councilwoman Scarpa.
Yeah. I'd like him to take the $9,000 from Courtney's uh position and just use the grant for uh 24951 and then he's got about 9,000 to play with. Okay. So, so now there's a fourth
element here and the fourth element is it legally possible for us to discuss a contractual obligation from a different department that might be used to fund some of this stuff as Councilwoman Scarpa keeps arguing.
Mr. I mean there's there's nothing wrong with with saying reducing one and adding to another. I mean, that's amendments are done that way all the time. Um, but I think Director Fonino brought up the
fact that this is a position that we need to fund. Yes, it's statutory. Um, so I don't know how we can reduce the compensation to the entity. Is that is that what we're we're saying here?
That's not what I'm looking to do. No, but is that I'm looking That's what they want to do. take the 9,000 third and reallocate it to Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I thought it was reducing the payment Essex regional for the the
nurse professional or whatever it was. Okay, I understand. Oh, okay. So, the resolution says the resolution says we're going to spend $33,280 for the term of this contract. Is that not what we're going to spend on this contract? Yeah, I I didn't even realize
that that's it went to resolution. I don't I didn't not I'm not aware that that's on the next we we don't have anything we just checked. We don't have anything on the agenda for that. Okay. What I tried to say at the beginning of this whole digression is that there are
now on SharePoint three different resolutions all carrying the same resolution number 171-25. I sent that to you in the questions. What is today? Monday. this this morning. Today, yeah, it was sent today. We just I just sent that that out this afternoon.
Yes. Um and the 171, I believe, is for one of the U land use board attorneys. I don't know I don't that's been the one that's been carried over because we have we have resolutions that are being carried over from the previous meeting. So,
we're starting at this meeting and the numbers in the 180s, I believe, Dina. Yes, 180. So, so any number that's on there that's earlier, they're from the previous meeting that were held over. I don't I just went on to the site here. I didn't see that. U and we're looking we're looking for that right now that reszo up
for what you're talking about. We didn't see that in Okay. So then it raises the issue of how is it that I have this. I don't know. That's And so do I. I'm perplexed too right now because we're we're we we're trying to figure
that out right now. So um that's a question I think we have to answer for you tomorrow. I just don't know the answer right now to look that up because I have that's the first I've heard of this being as a res. So this this this resolution is dated
from the June council meeting. The June council meeting. Yes. So that one was Yeah. I was going to say because if it's if it's carried over for that and it's not on this I didn't see it placed on this recent agenda. So
give us the day tomorrow. Tomorrow we'll figure that out for you please. If you like. Okay. That's the further when you said that's the first I heard. I know that those other numbers are from the the land use board attorney resol that were carried over the July 22nd. So what's on SharePoint now is one, two,
three, four, five documents all with the resolution number 171-25. Yeah, we're gonna have to do Okay. And there's a couple more with 172. Okay. So, it's not clear. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not clear that this is
something that is even exists legally at this point. Do I get that right? So, we're talking about 33,000 and change and you guys seem to not even know anything about it. So, right, it's on SharePoint. I guess that's where
Councilwoman Scarpa found it. It is. It is. And I asked about this a number of times. Councilwoman Scarpa, do you want to uh be recognized to speak? Yes, I do. Yes. Um
I would like the exact statue that states that these nurses need to be supervised. And I'd also like to know at what levels and at what funding because I I I just really feel that we should do
the minimum if it is even is a requirement. So maybe legal could provide that for me or uh perhaps Mr. Smearldo. I'd like to see in writing what is actually required. Thank you. I I I want to be sure that
that our three administration uh people got your request so that they so that your request can be fulfilled, but I'm not sure if they heard everything over the air conditioning and I I'll get to you in just a second. Councilwoman would like us to uh get the
the regulation from the state for the reason why we need this position. Is that correct? Right. So yes, you're talking about Councilwoman Scarpa, you're talking about the statutoily required position. Is that correct? Yes. And the details that surround it to
what levels this position and needs to be um uh put forth. Yeah. Okay. And that's all you're looking for, right, Councilwoman? Yes, right now. Okay. Mr.
And related to that, um, Mr. Mr. Fonzino, quick question. Um, the grant, there's a grant for the new nurse supervisor. Is the grant predicated on a $33,000
salary? No, but the based on the hourly rate and the number of hours um that and that 33 is derived from It goes from the hourly. What's that?
It's the 33 grand is derives from the hourly rate that you're talking about. Yep. So, there's an hourly rate and a set amount of hours that that person works per week and that's what it it's yearly. Here,
correct. That's an annual rate, but we don't know at this point whether this contract act, this resolution actually exists. Is that correct? I wasn't aware it was coming. This is the first I'm seeing it. Um, we're going to have to look into this.
Council President, I'm looking at here. Well, as I stated, we're carrying over from July 22nd the land use uh attorneys is is marked as 171 and 172. I don't know why that was in the SharePoint
there. We'll have to look into it. So, I apologize, but I don't know why that's there and we'll we'll we'll go get that till tomorrow. Okay. That's not necessarily absolutely gerine to our discussion now. Correct.
This is something that would take some additional finagling to apply any amount of this funds. So, okay. So, so we have the I've never seen this before where the administration has
come back and said we want three things and it appears that we may or may not have the votes for this, but to add them back requires all three of the council people who are in the quorum now to vote for.
Mhm. So, to hopefully simplify this, we're asking for a total budget for the department of $39,000. Um, so that would be an overall cut
instead of what we're at. We're we're a cut of 18,000 right now. We're asking for an overall cut of $10,68463, leaving Mr. funds with a budget of $39,000. That's what we're asking for. Um, so that's a cut that's a cut of about 20%, right?
Yeah. That's So what you're saying is you're offering to take a 20% cut and it's to leave the number at I remember 39,000. We'll make it a round number 39,000. It covers the the three
contracts. It covers what's been spent on paper to RR Donnelly and the other various items, business cards, Amazon stuff. Um, and then leaves him with, you know, roughly
5,000. Yeah, around there. Around $5,000. So, so if I can get the information down, I'll make the motion and see if we can get a second and then I can't imagine
that we have further to discuss, but if we do, we do and then we'll we'll vote on it. Uh, so, Mr. Tiniac, you're requesting a a return of part of the money that has been cut so far
and you want the budget to be is did you say 39,000? Uh, correct. So, I am requesting that the budget be increased by 7 $7,315.37.
Okay. And this would require a three 0 vote. Okay. So, I move that we adjust the budget for the department to
$39,000. That basically involves requesting a budget increase of $7,315.37. Is that correct? That's correct, Council President. So, there's the motion. Do I have a second?
Uh, hearing none. The motion fails for lack of a second. So I feel empty after spending so much time doing this and then having this happen. But uh it is what it is. The
So what else is there to move on? Is there anything else in this budget that we need to discuss? I would like to make an amendment a different motion. We've cut it by 18. We need to increase this to just cover the contractual difference that was that has
been mentioned many times, $1,100 plus add a little cushion in for um spending. So I would like to add in um
return back $4,000. I'll second that. Okay. So, the motion is to add back this amount of money that
Mr. Ziniac specifies is the minimum bare minimum to operate the department contractually contractual obligation. And that number is $1,100 and what else? $1,100 plus to add back in an extra
$3,000 just for whatever spending. But I want to make sure that the contract for the RAT is not included, which is why I'm not approving the first motion because the rats were 11,000 and we're only removing 10.
Okay. So, Mr. Diniac, what's the number that the minimum to meet the contractual standards? Isn't it,00 and something else? I just want to make sure we get the details in the motion, but I think the motion was to increase the budget by 4,000. Correct. So, just a
flat 4,000. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I can work with that. Okay. So, the motion on the floor, and it's been seconded, is to add $4,000 back to the budget. Yes. And we have a second. Is there any
further discussion? Madam clerk. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa. Yes. Council President Koviaak. Yes. The motion carries. Thank you. What's next?
Okay. Um, council presidents, the transportation omnibus salaries and wages. Um, I think we discussed but we did not uh vote consent or
anything else here. So, do we need to vote consent on the health department budget before we move on? Oh, I'm sorry. Or this is page 95. Uh page 93. We just voted to amend and now we're asking for consent.
Is there consent? Yes. Consent. Consent. Okay. Thank you. What's the next page? Moving on. Uh sorry, council. Moving on to page 95. Transportation omnibus. Um this is the
um uh the bus drivers. Okay. So, there was a a president. Yes. There was a $50,000 overtime, which is what we discussed last time, and that was going to be evaluated, and I think
hopefully some changes being made forward. I know that year to date you've already exceeded that, correct? So, um, I'd like to have just some sort of promise from the from the administration that this policy
in terms of overtime be reviewed so that we do not have a dispatcher making overtime money for driving a bus and that a part-time worker be filled in in that capacity to save us money. So, we are meeting with our
transportation people on Wednesday. We already gathering information and data over the weekend and today. Um we did hire additional staff as we mentioned the other day to help offset these these uh people who are working. So we have a larger pool of part-time
drivers that will only work when there's you know a need. So we are addressing it. We we we heard you on Friday. We immediately began on on addressing this and um so we have a meeting scheduled for this Wednesday. So,
okay, there's nothing we can do this year unfortunately, but just going forward, let's try to address this. And and just to be understand that while there are some things that could have may may or may not have been able to be uh adjusted to, one of the things that
council president could tell you is that him and I have had conversations for a very long time about implementing a wrership fee program. I think we're both in favor of that and I think that's what the council and the and and the uh citizen advisory board. So, we're not opposed to that. I do have numbers. In
fact, I got a call again today from the company that wants to provide us the information um that you know we have we have some plans in place to begin a wrership program. Um a a fee I should say a fee for writership. So, this isn't
something that has been sitting on the wayside. But as instructed by the council, we have to wait till we can get capital money to implement this program. And I believe the numbers that I'm looking at for just that equipment is somewhere around the $100,000 number. So for an
investment to charge and we've been looking at our our regional partners in in and around the county and looking at what they charge and and what they don't charge. And um so that's what we're exploring to to come up with a fee for service for the town of West Orange.
Okay. But this is not going to be impacting the 25 budget. It it won't because we have we have to purchase the equipment. We have to install the equipment. We have to issue um we're looking at a um a user like license or you know a card a card system
so we know exactly who the person is. So we we've looked into this into this model. So uh so that people can that people can uh you know we know that that there are residents and what what we could do to make sure that we capture all that information and and the fees
associated with the cost. Sure. Sure. Councilwoman um Mr. Smearaldo, can you change the policy from here on in that overtime is not paid for the dispatcher to be also a bus driver? No, I I can't right now. I I'm not
saying that we won't. I'm just saying to tell you that today, no, I can't do that because I haven't even met with them yet. So, let let us explore it and let us develop the plan. Um, but we've heard you and we're, you know, like I said, we hired people. I I spoke to the the the
um dispatcher this morning and so we have that, we have an understanding right now. So, we're going to be working toward that. But to promise you today, right now, I'm not going to do that because I'm not going to break a promise if it doesn't happen. Let me look at this. We'll develop what we have to do and then we'll move forward from but our
goal is to reduce the overtime. Okay. You good? Yeah. Council Garba. Yeah. My question is twofold. Um what is the overall cost of our jity with all the cost uh associated and how much will
this system save us? What percentage uh savings or contribution to the overall cost do we see? The councilman answered to question one. I don't know the answer yet. That's why we're collecting all the data where we're going to be putting something together for the council. And question
two, uh again, I think based on the data that we have going to be presented to us and what we're looking to charge, I I can't give you that number right now, but it's we're looking at it. So, we will get we will get you a report and we will provide that to you and and this
way we can make a clear definitive um decision on this. Yeah, I'd like to see a break even. I'm sorry. Could you say that again? I would like to see a break even. We would too. Yeah, we would too. So, in the report or whatever you're
going to present to us. And since this is not going to have an impact on the 25 budget, I'd like to move on. These are all good questions, but it's not going to get anything done today. So, I wanted to ask if
what the township does when they exceed the overtime, right, funding in July, what do they do? What are you going to do the rest of? So, you know, we hopefully we'll have some breakage in the hourly um
and in base pay. um probably more the hourly that we would have some breakage because again we're we're putting in values of what we think they're going to earn. Um so the the hope is is that we come in a little
bit under that's what's happened in prior years that you know I think in 2024 um the OT figure might have been $71,000 but there was room in the hourly um so was able to absorb it. So that's what we're going to have to have for for this
year. But I I think you know even though we're not changing the overtime budgeted figure, I think what we're talking about um in terms of mitigating overtime still is going to have a budgetary impact for the rest of the year. It's going to have a cash flow impact. Um it's going to be
you know for the overall calculation of of the Jitney's costs. It's going to reduce them. So, um, you know, it was a a good conversation to have last Friday and I I think it's bringing about meaningful change, um, for the operation. So, you know, we've spoken
about it, you know, several times since Friday afternoon. Um, so, you know, I think there's going to be a good impact. I I just want to make a comment. Since the Jity is a service that is a regular
service and we always know when we're going to need it and even the senior visits are regular, there really should be no overtime or very little overtime in this budget. So, I'd like to just put that out there that this should be avoided at all
costs. This is $50,000 that doesn't need to be spent. So I think what we have pending is consent on this page unless there's further discussion. Consent. Consent. Consent. Should we break this with since we have
to dinner? Okay. So do you want to break for another 10 minute 10-minute break? We will uh we will take another 10-minute break. We will resume operations. No overtime given at 8:49.
Thanks members of the Zoom audience. Who do we have to thank for our As you heard council president indicate, we are taking a short break and I am putting everyone on this. Thank you. I myself
in anything. She is competitive getting international brand deal. She's selling everything now. I think she just sold uh bought a $13 million home. I mean, this woman is crushing at 27 years old. We should celebrate her because it all inclusion
celebrating woman, right? 13 million home. Now, I'm I the uh the gun. Now, that kind of was over the top. They already hated her about, but then when you go out with the pistol and start licking off shots like
that, I mean, that has to drive them extra crazy. I know. But again, we're Welcome back, West Orange, in the Zoom audience. Thank you for your patience. We are resuming the budget workshop, and at this time, I'd like to turn the floor
over to our council president. All right. Thank you everybody. So we just Whoops. We just gave consent.
A slip of the thumb and now I'm totally lost. We're on page 96. Thank you. of those now. Um, can you give us real figures of what was spent on this? Sure. Okay. So, we're on page 96. It's the
senior citizens budget transfer senior citizens transportation program. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. I just asked Mr. Dutinia to give us the real amounts of how how much has been spent. Sure.
It's there. I just want to remark that for this entire request for the past two years it's been 2600 and in two years only $191 was spent. Um so we have um one
expenditure um for office supplies so far this year and it's for $28767. So that's on uh excuse me line 113 office supplies. Okay.
All right. So is there any discussion on why these items need to be in in the budget? I if if I could if I can I could say this much um in terms of cleaning supplies um and I think I I mentioned
this previously um we were working off a stockpile that we had from COVID um DPW health we we were kind of supplementing it using that stockpile. That stockpile is depleting. So, I I I think we're probably going to need to keep the, you
know, the cleaning supply um budget where it is. So, what are the cleaning supplies that you need? It's wipes and and things to to clean the interiors of the buses, disinfectant. Yeah. Would 250 be enough for cleaning for the
rest of the year? For cleaning supplies? Yes, I think so. Okay. Is there anything else? Well, the only thing I'm not sure about with the fire extinguishers, I know they recently checked them. I just don't know if they have to be replaced or
recharged. Um I have that's the only thing I don't know. And that that would be something that would be of consideration because we are required to have fire extinguishers on board, but I just don't know. I know that they were checked a few months ago. I just don't know what their status is now, if they
need to be recharged or not. That's the only thing I would say for consideration. The only other thing I have is the license renewals. We haven't asked them to submit those because the budget hasn't passed. So I don't know whose license are licenses are up for renewal.
So these are the drivers drivers. Yep. And that's something that we pay for. Is that Okay. So, I would just request that we have that information so that we know like, you know, if the licenses need to
be renewed and how much that costs per license and per person. Mhm. So that we can Yeah. You know, they don't renew at the same time obviously. So, um but I can I can get that information. We'll find out. I know that the
extinguishers. Yes. So, we've got two information outstandings. Does that mean we want to pass on this page or do we want to put a number to it?
I'd like to put a number to it. Council President, if I may, just so we could get through this. Um, you know, we we can concede to at least half the 1300 for now if that's helps with moving this along and then we can still provide that information.
So, what you're suggesting is out of the budget of $2,600, you're offering to cut it by 50%. We'll do 50% without getting the information and and if if there's need be, we can always tell you later. So, but we'll still get the information.
We're not okay to help with this exercise today. That's all. Is there any further discussion? Counciloman Scarpa. No, I don't have anything. Councilwoman Ruden, no.
So, we can by consent reduce the budget by 50% to $1,300. I or is Yeah, that I just I do have a question. Why do we pay for license renewals for people? Why don't they pay for their
own license? I it's something that's was established before I got here. It's not something I implemented. Okay. Is that I mean, shouldn't that be something that a professional pays for their own license renewal? We're going to have to look into that. I
I'm not aware of this policy. I didn't know that we had this in something like that. So, we'll look into that. What are the license renewals for? The CDL license $44 renews. Yeah. They have to be commercial, right?
They have to be certified. Let me clarify. This is only for the full-time employees. Yeah. Not this is not for the part-time jitney need. This is for the senior drivers. And how many how many CDL drivers do we have? Full time. Yeah.
Five. Five. Yeah. So, even if everybody got a renewal, that would be $2 50. It's not papers. Again, I I'd have to look into it. This was established before my time.
Okay. I'd like to request that that policy be evaluated. Why we pay for renewing other people's licenses when they need to come to us with those licenses when they apply for the job. They have to have a CDL license. So, they should be in charge of all all new employees are required to
have. They have to have we're not we're not correct for the part- timerrs. Um I be honest with this the first I heard about this with the uh the full-timers. I didn't know that. Um so we're going to we have like I said we have our meeting on Wednesday. We'll look into that.
Commissioner Boie, did you have your hand up? No. Nope. Okay. Yeah. Um, I think we need to look at a lot of these policies that, you know, we've done this in the past and this is why these line items are here. I'd like
to see the directors really take a more active role in managing the costs of each of their departments. I think for this we $1,000 should be more than enough and then, you know, if there's really a pressing need, we can add some money back. Are you done, Councilwoman?
Thank you. Yes. So, we have on the floor an offer to cut the budget by 50% to $1,300. We have some outstanding information requests. Are we ready to consent on
this page at $1,300 for the 25 2025 budget? I I'd like to make a different motion if that's okay. I'd like to make a motion to reduce this entire budget to to $1,000 because each of these are items that have not been
spent and also need a policy review. So, I second that. So, I think let's just reduce it to $1,000 and reduce 1,600. Okay. So, we have a motion to reduce the
budget by uh $1,600 to $1,000. We have a second. Is there any further discussion? Councilwoman. Okay. I think they're discussing whether they have discussion administration. Good. Not really
discussion. No discussion. I I'm sorry that was totally inappropriate words to use. I sorry. Is there any further discussion? I I just think with the uncertainty of of of going back and having to check the fire extinguisher, I'm a little concerned
that we might be a little underbudgeted. So, I' I'd appreciate if we could do the the half and then if we come back with the information, then we could lower it. I mean, I I just worried that we're not going to have money to buy fire
extinguishers. I don't know which ones are due, which ones aren't. So, I just want to say that we we're covering um for 287 for 287 has already been spent, correct?
For license renewals. Um no, we we spend money on office supplies. Office supplies how much that was for 67. 287 for office supplies.
and and we are we discussed allocating $250 for wipes, which is a lot of money. No way are you going to use $250 in wipes. That leaves another $500 for fire extinguishers, and your request was only
$450. So, you're well within what you what you asked for. It's leaving 500 for extinguishers when you asked for 450. What about first aid? Like I I don't know. Like I don't I don't
first aid. You I don't know what the status is of of that. Have to check into that. See if we can afford to trim that. Okay. Well, I think we already have a motion on the floor. We do. And I second
figuring out the discussion uh for the discussion. And yes, once you find out this information, you can certainly come back. We can Okay. We can change it if we need. Look, Madam Cler. All right. So, this is to remove $1600.
Uh, Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scarpa, yes. Council President Koviaak, yes. The motion carries. Consent on this page. Consent. Okay. Uh we're on page 97. This is
animal control and um this is for salaries and wages. Um, please note a portion of this is paid for by the animal control trust which uh monies are derived from the sale of the dog and cat licenses
um and for the amount that we keep uh separate from what gets sent to the state of New Jersey. It goes into a trust and we can pay for certain animal control services with that money. So, we've allocated $17,000 of the salary
and wages to the the trust fund. So, we need discussion. Yes. The only thing I would like to remove is euthanasia equipment. Oh, we're not there yet. We're we're just at salaries and wages. Sorry. Oh, page 97. Yes. Okay. I don't think
I'm sorry. I move to consent. Consent. consent. Page 98. Page 98. This is animal control. Um,
the majority of the budget is paid for by the animal control trust fund from the revenues derived from the sale of dog and cat licenses. Again, the monies that are not sent to the state of New Jersey. Um,
so the ask is the same as it was last year, $2,184.83. Okay. And I know this is very small, but I would like to remove the ammunition and the euthanasia.
I do not believe that we should be euthanizing dogs. So that is and the tranquilizing materials the tranquilizing that material that you need that you need safety of of the okay our animal control you have to control
never mind just one at a time please I I'd also like to just inquire what is dog pest control answer that if you want yeah go ahead So when when we uh bring dogs in, we
have to sometimes that they have fleas. Mhm. And they have to be treated with flea spray, flea and tick spray. And has that been used? Has there ever been a cost? Cuz I don't see any cost for that for two years.
It's used. Was it Was anything used this year? I don't believe so. What percentage of this budget is is coming out of the trust? the majority $23,000 worth of it. 20 $23,53
budget request is only 21. The budget request is $2,184. Yeah. So, it's all coming out of the trust for the most part. Yeah. The taxpayer is being asked to fund $2,184. Okay. So,
and what is the ammunition used for? that that line is not correct. I I'm not sure. We don't we don't have tranquilizer guns. So that's an old that's an old outdated line. Okay. So then I'd just like to remove that and the euthanasia equipment.
Um we although that line may not reflect that properly. I mean, we do use it for other the tranquilizing things or other materials. I'm not I didn't remove the tranquilizing materials.
No, this is uh line 111. The ammunition again the the line doesn't really reflect it. Well, if you can't wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Please finish what you're saying and then Councilwoman Ruden will respond. Basically, yeah, the the line is not accurate accurately reflect what we would be using the monies for. We don't have a tranquilizer gun, therefore we don't
have darts. So, um, and in terms of the euthanasia equipment, I mean, truth of the matter is that they need to have that equipment available and they have to put an animal down.
Councilwoman, um I would assume that that's done at a vet, not either at the vet or the vet comes here, right? But then that would be covered under vet services. When he comes down, we have to have the
equipment here. Well, you know, we have a he comes to our facility every so often to take care of what he needs to take care of. I would like to get it removed. I'm not comfortable. We can't can't
we can't operate a shelter then. I don't know what else to say. I mean, we need the equipment to do the job. If we have a sick animal that needs to put to sleep, we need to have the equipment to put it to sleep. Okay. Any further discussion?
I just want to make sure that uh we have the line items that Councilwoman Ruden wants to remove. Okay. The line item is 111 and 119. So, do we need to go to a motion or is that something that the administration
agrees with? It's It's $184. We'll I understand. I understand. We'll consent to that. Okay. Okay. Consent. Consent. That everyone I didn't hear from Councilwoman Scarpa.
Do you consent? Yes. Thank you. I think we're now on page 100. Sorry, Council President. This is page 100. Uh, senior health salaries and wages.
Um, any discussion? None. Councilman Scarpa. No. Is there consent? Consent. Consent. Page 101. Senior citizen health center.
The uh recommend uh the introduced budget this year was $37,487.50. What is this president? If I may ask, what is liability insurance? That's for the nurs's personal liability
insurance. So, is that is that along with the same lines of licensing? We are insuring them instead of them insuring themselves. We're reimbursing them for the cost of getting personal liability insurance. And how much have we paid this year for
that? We haven't paid anything. Again, we're operating off a temporary budget, so we haven't they haven't submitted that those costs. Okay. Is that something that can be reviewed by policy? It it seems to me that professionals usually cover their own expenses to be a
professional and that we don't we shouldn't be reimbursing them. Historically, we've we've reimbursed our nurses. Why? Correct. So, Councilwoman Ruden, what you're asking, I think, is that we change that policy. Probably not something we want
to do in the middle of a year, but we certainly have uh four more months, okay, to determine that and apply a new policy next year if we change it. But please, Mr. Tiny, um this reimbursement is for our full-time nurses. These are our
employees. This these are not um third party outside contractors. Just just to get that on the record, do we do generally speaking, do we reimburse all professional licenses? I'm thinking about engineers. I'm thinking
about thinking about. So, our attorneys know because for the most part they're um firms and their third party even though we have an attorney that is like
a an employee but you know has a firm that that bills the municipality. Um so as an employee we're not paying for for Calus or whatever it is. Um but some of our other professionals, our clerk, I
believe we reimburse for uh their membership uh I mean their um their license renewal. I think our QPA we reimburse or or pay for the license renewal. Um I don't know about our engineer. Um
I know we pay for her training. All the trainings are paid for. Our um our inspectors will pay for especially some of the inspectors that we have sent to schools. Um it's a requirement they pass test and we we pay their licenses such as like the fire inspectors and things
of that nature. So we we uh we require them as part of the job so we pay for it. Things of that nature. In the past you pay for the CFO. Um not this time. But why not this time?
Fly under the radar. I don't want to be on a bill list. So Okay. Well, maybe others might want to be under the radar also. Exactly. Oh, no. I didn't mean it for everybody. It's a personal thing. Okay. Um, can you just um elaborate on
the line item 110? Medical supplies. Various different medical supplies that we need to run vaccination clinics. And um, you know, what have we spent so far this year? Um, so we have
spent, I added this up, um, $754.92. Um, we spent money on ep Epipads, epinephrine, epine auto injectors.
And, uh, we had a medical waste pickup as well. And we have the flu season upcoming. We have a clinic for that. Do we get any grant money for this department?
So, one of the nurs's salaries, part of her salary is offset by a grant. Yes. Okay. Are you using typewriters? We do. Do you have a maintenance? Has there been a maintenance charge for
typewriters? So in in in this department, I'm sorry, we don't use it in this department, but that line is used to um to buy toner for printers. We have one main printer over there and
one auxiliary printer, but we do use a typewriter in the main health department office. They still use it for marriage corrections on certificates. Okay. And here we have the professional services, the $30,000 in this line item.
This is line item 100. Uh I'm assuming that this is related to our discussion about the mystery resolution. That's correct. Okay. I spoke with the clerk and she
said that the resolution had been uh pulled so it hadn't yet be been considered. So, I'm assuming at the appropriate time we're going to have that on an agenda, but I just want to know what is the
relationsship between that pulled resolution and uh the line item here, line item 100. Thank you, Councilwoman Scarp. I'll get you in a second. Okay.
I wasn't, but I I think I'm done. I'm here. I'm sorry. I'm done. My question looks like he's been struggling with that this year. There's little charge not this year. Okay.
And then next year is separate. request. So how much do we need? So gi given the circumstance with the the grant being reinstated um I can do away with this request for
this year but I will need so that the grant will cover 24,951. So then I I will have to request the difference in next year's budget. because it only goes till March of 26. So I I think that I can give that up for now. Okay.
So, excuse me. Perhaps we should hear from Councilman Scarpa first. That was great. I was going to say if we had to have it in there, just have funded the amount of the grant. And um I think we should look at the professional licenses. I'm a you know a speech pathologist. Most of us pay for our own
licenses. Maybe that's just something we can look at across the board. Thank you. That's it. So, Mr. Fonino, you were suggesting that what should we do with the 100 line item for professional services? Do you want
to knock that down? Is that or do you want to just just remove it at this time? I'm sorry. You can remove it completely at this time. Okay. I'll I'll request the difference in the 26 budget. Okay. So, we have consent to drop the $30,000 that's in the uh 100 budget line for
professional services. Consent. Consent. Consent. There was no request. Well, it's in the budget. You can see down the 7,000 plus,000. Yeah.
Okay. Consent. We have three consents on 101. Thank you. So, we're good with 101. We're moving on. Yes. Uh, this is the retired citizens. Retired citizens SNW. Um
we took out um the open position before we uh introduced the budget um and we modified the older time. So um that was prior to introduction. So that's all reflected in the introduced
budget. So that was part of the first round when we went through the budget, right? Correct. Yeah. Okay. So this has all been modified to reflect this is this has all been modified. We had an increase to the overtime and we did uh you know we took the open position out. So
is there any discussion? Yes, I have a question. Council, can I go ahead? Do you want to do you want to speak? Yeah, I have a question. Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, we can hear you. the the
senior livability coordinator. Is that a grant position? I thought it was a grant position. No, no, this is paid for out of the operating budget. So, this is a full-time person. I
thought it was a part-time. If I may, I I believe that the grant initially funded part of the salary of this position and then the township um it was part of the grant agreement that
we would absorb this employee as a part-time employee. So, this is a part-time employee now. Yeah. Not anymore. Okay. Oh, no. There's no grant. That was just the initial the initial uh I think it was like $10,000.
Yeah. We I remember we appropriated the extra $10,000 last year. What was the initial grant amount then? 35. May um it was 10,000 per year, I believe. But that predates me. Um I'd have to look
back. She for two years. What was the grant? The grant amount was how much? I'm not sure, Councilwoman. This that predates me. I'd have to go look that up. Mr. Fonino, do you know?
I I I don't know for sure. I want to say it was 10,000, but I Miss Van Dyke would know better than me. I I wasn't involved in this uh grant application because I wanted to see is this another one of these situations where we can
just cover the grant amount and are we getting the grant next year? We don't have the grant anymore. Um, so that's why I said nothing is being covered by the grant that that we don't have that grant program anymore.
Um, did we not qualify for it? Not not uh apply for it. What happened there? I think it was like really only a startup type of grant where you know they gave the initial seed money and then part of the grant agreement was um
to hire that person as a part-time employee thereafter. So, we have no no benefits or anything for this person? No, she's a part-time employee. Okay. All right. Thank you. That's it.
How many hours does she work? I'm sorry. Jeff, Joe, sorry, just a second. I thought she jumped off the No, no, they You asked me to lower it. I lowered it. 25. Okay. Councilwoman, how many hours does she work a week?
No. No more than 25 hours per week. So, can you just explain to to us how a grant position ended up becoming a full-time position that we now pay for entirely? That's not uncommon. Um, you know, some
of the the public safety grants, and Mr. Moraldo can speak to this. You know, you get you get grant funded for a few years, but then you have to keep them on for, you know, what is it? Minim what's safer? A minimum of three years. Grant is minimum of two years. Uh they
pay for two years and then you have to keep them on for another three. It's total five. Is that what she is that? No, I'm just saying that's that's fire. There's there's grant programs that that they require that. So, what was the grant um program requirements
for this employee? Partners for health. Okay. It's a Partners for Health. Was it Did it require that the township then hire her hire this create this position permanently? I believe so. Yes. But I I'd have to confirm. I would have to confirm on Miss Van Djk. But I believe that that's the
case that this then a $10,000 grant position then become a a full-time position that we hire indefinitely. Again, I I I don't want to speak to the specifics because I I would Well, it's marked as part-time. We're
not talking about a full-time position, are we? No, but it's a generous salary for part-time. It's a very large salary for part-time. So, Council President, I didn't invite Miss Van Dyke tonight because I assume we're going to finish Mr. Director
Fondino and Director Reynolds. Um, we are scheduled to meet again. Maybe it'd be best we hold off on these two pages until we can have Miss Van Dijk to come here to defend her her budget and then we can finish up with Director Fontino and then move into Director Reynolds. If that's going to help us save time
tonight without having a second guess, I can speak to Miss Van Dyke tomorrow and ask her to be prepared to answer these questions. I think that's in fairness to everybody. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's Yeah, just have the grant requirement, please. I I will make sure that she she presents that to you,
Councilwoman Scarpa. I'm I'm finished. Thank you. So, so we're going to move forward with Mr. Fonzina. See how far we get or is this the end of He's one more. He has one more page, but no, this is the next page is
is for next page. Senior 103 is for seniors. That's the one I'm going ask Miss Van Dyke to come in and go. Okay. You don't have anything else. Just the garbage. I can't Oh, sorry. So, we've already gone over this page in
the first round, correct? Page 104. Yes. Yes. Or 103, actually. Um, I just want to ask real quickly, does do my colleagues have any questions for on page 103? Because as much as I like to
see Miss Van Dyke, if she doesn't need to come here to defend this because we don't have any questions, we we don't need her here. No, I will have questions. Okay. Okay. So, we're skipping 103 for now.
We're going to 104. Is that correct? Correct. Yes. Is there any discussion? I just have a question on 155. It says garbage trash rolloff containers. What is that?
They're dumpsters that um you know if if we require if the town requires a dumpster then that's okay. You know they they charge us out of that line. Have we needed a dumpster this year? Yes. How many and what have we
I don't know the exact number but I could tell you we we use one for the street fair and I'm sure Mr. Reynolds could speak to the other um we use them for street sweeping waste and amongst other things, but he he could probably tell us. Can you f fill us in on how much has
been spent year to date? Mhm. That's a 20,000 um plus request and in the past only less than 6,000 was used. Um so we have
spent 7,500 to date on rolloff containers. Okay. Do you see a need for that coming up in the next four months for another
rolloff container? Rolling for just This is our Would you like a blindfold too? Okay. So, the question is, do we need rolloff dumpsters? Yes. 25 Lakeside Avenue uses a sweeping dumpster because
so you can put sweepings anywhere that carted off and taken away according to waste manage management uh of our uh wastewater management storm water management policies. We also have a location 590 Mount Pleasant Avenue. We have dumpsters up there. Two for trash,
one for sweeping. And we probably go through on a given year, we sweep from April to December, weather permitting, probably go through 12 dumpsters down at public works and maybe about six up at
recycling center. And how much is each dumpster? Uh, that'll be a question for Mike. I don't know how much the dumpsters are, Mike. I don't know what it is under the contract. I I think they're 325 a dumpster. So, do you need more for the rest of
this year? Are you saying that you need 12 more? No, I I use 12 for the year. Okay. So, how much is 7 7,500 has been allocated? Correct. Is that enough? Are you good? So, 7,5 Yeah. 7,500 and 350.
Yeah. 325. That should be enough for the Okay. So, can we reduce the the the rest? That's so roughly 13,000. Mhm.
So, there's an offer on 155 to reduce the uh budget request from 20,400 to uh I guess 13,400. I'll second it. Well, it's still a request. We're we're we're trying to stay away from motions if we don't need to. It just slows us
down even further. So, so the uh the administration is conferring. We've conferred. Okay. And what's the conferral? Yes. Okay. So, we're good. We're good. Yeah. I think for the rest of you that's
Thank you so much. That's doable. Okay. I'd like to make a motion to reduce that line item on 155 um by 13,400. I'll second it. I'm about to take vote. Is there any further discussion?
Madame clerk. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa. Yes. Council President Koviaak. Yes. The motion carries. Thank you. So, are there any other disc any more
discussion on page 104? No, Councilwoman Scarpa. Consent. Consent. Nothing for me. Consent for me. Consent. Thank you. Consent.
We're going to 105 next. Page 105. So, whose budget is this? 105. It's recreation. I didn't I didn't ask Mr. Kio to be here tonight because we talked about director Reynolds because he was previous. I think he's in the 60s or 70s something area.
All right. A little higher. So, I do have some questions on this one. But let's let me just let's just wait. So, this this is not something we're going to do tonight, correct? Because this is Mr. Kio's page. Yeah, we're not doing Mr. Kio's page
because he's not here tonight. I I I actually spoke to Director Kio. He's going to have um Deputy Director Johnson show up because Mr. Kio is on vacation as of tomorrow. Um so, I have already prescheduled them to Thursday and one
will miss Van Dyke and uh what whoever else we think we need to bring in. I'll look at the rest of the the schedule. Yeah, I just asked only these two records tonight because I just it's voluminous. Okay. So, thank you, Mr. Fonino.
Thank you. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. So, who's going to be first? Refine the page. We're going to be page 76. Wow, that was fast. No, 7. No, nothing. We're having to go
back. Going back. Oh, you never We skipped over DPW director. Uh, director Reynolds, page 83 was not available that even way. Oh, no. We're should we should be on 79.
Yeah, council president. We're going to do page 79. That's that's where Mr. Reynolds uh starts. That's interesting. Okay. Um so page 79 uh obviously has significant change
because what we did here is we we added a line for the maintenance at 10 Rooney which was previously part of the library appropriation uh line item even though it does not get
sent to the library with a third of a mill. it was lumped into the library um outside cap appropriation. So I don't remember which but maybe the June 9th hearing um I showed that we had
reallocated that correctly to our public building operations and maintenance and we dramatically reduced the amount that we budgeted in the last couple of years which I believe was what $700,000 for 10 rooney. Um, so it's now $325,000
for 10 Rooney. So, you know, if you're looking at a year-over-year budget, this one goes up, but we also put the 10 Rooney, that $325,000, and that's that bottom line. Um, because again, it was $700,000 in the previous
budget in a different line item. Um yet we still had uh decreases to um some of the line items um and the overall increase goes to 265600
again you know that's with reallocating 10 roy so all right I have a bunch of questions okay you ready go ahead Okay. Uh, janitorial services.
Yes. Um, you have a contract for this? Yes, we do. And the contract is um 628 6 uh 628 853. You have requested 74,000.
Since it's a contracted rate, can't we just reduce it to what the janitorial The contract only covers certain things. It it covers all the cleaning of the buildings, but if we have any incidentals or emergencies like we had recently where um we had the interview
room over the police department um somebody couldn't hold themselves in so they decided to decorate the interview room. So I have to have them come in and decon the room. So things like that that's I just left a little bit on there for situations like that. We've come across some of these problems also with the patrol cars with the same thing
happening. Mhm. So we we ask them to come on and do a decontamination the cars or the building. The jail cells, same thing. Double frost that every now and again. So we leave a little bit there for that. Okay. So that's that's a $12,000
difference for what may happen. So can we can we bring that down to 66? The contract is for 62. I'd leave 4,000 in there for some of those issues that you just
described. Would that be okay with you? Mind you, everything is allocated, right? Yeah. Everything is is in for the rest of the year for them. Yeah. So, we're at Yeah. I mean, we encumbered 62
when we had that emergency, you know. That's Right. So you'll leave us 4,000 then for the for the incidentals. Yes, we'll work with that. Okay. So what are you looking to reduce it to?
So it should be um from 74 um well actually it should go down to 66. It's 62 60 66.
Let's make it 67. Okay, that gives it Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. Okay. That's 7,000 reduction. Yes.
Okay. Um for HVAC, um you have spent nothing this year on HVAC. I realize that that could happen at any time. Uh I believe we have the 072 service service contract HVAC
there's nothing charged against there maybe nothing charge or build out till we get because I've just had carrier here our or vendor doing a bunch of work here. Do you know how much has been encumbered for that? Yeah, we don't have it. Oh, that's
that's the part, right? That's just as of today. Those are the quotes. There's nothing there. No. So, came out of the building. So, since we're we're in August and
6,000 was requested and maybe something could happen, would you be okay with reducing that 3,000? It's still just till the end of the year. Then you get another budget request. I understand that. But at any given moment, I could have a condenser or compressor go. That's $5,000 right
there. But that's the service fault. Just just for a compressor. Yeah, but we look we do to 5,000 just reducing it 1,000. All right. Was now that you said that the air conditions are going to break tomorrow.
Okay. All right. The miscellaneous miscellaneous repairs in town hall. Yep. You've spent your your request was for 16,000. You've spent 6,618. Can we bring that down to a total of 8,000?
I still have I still have the rest of the year to go. Yes. I'm still still leaving you 1,400. That may be a little too a little too thin for me right now. There's a lot of repairs that go on this building as new with all our other buildings. So, like I said, I have a
How about 10,000? I have a handicap door down downstairs right now that the paddle's not working on. I come out there, I have to replace the paddle and the panel and the door. That could be 6,000. Would you agree to coming down to you're you're requesting 16. Would you agree to
come down to 11,000? That still gives you 5,000. Same. Say no. Yeah. No problem. Like I said, that's a little thin still.
That's a little thin to get me through through the rest of the year. Well, can you Well, can you can you do 12? Like I'm at a bidding parlor. Well, we could we could try to get by with 12. Okay. Thank you so much. That's a
reduction of 4,000 right there. All right. See, I don't want to cut things so thin. So, if I run out with that, that line item is done. Before I go from there, right back here. Yep. You come right back and we'll give
you money. Um, all right. So, for promise, you make me say promise. Yeah, I promise. Um 077 for u maintenance of all buildings.
You've spent $1.99. You've requested 225. Can you bring that down to 210? That's still leaving you with $10,000. Bring it to 210. 210. No, that's what we Yeah. taking out 15.
Okay. I misunderstood you. the truth. So 300,000 with the incumbrance. Yeah. So I would say no. Yeah. I No, there I don't think there's any room to cut here. There really isn't. Nothing. No. Okay. For 551 Valley, this has been
discussed odd infinitum. We are no longer going to be paying for the rental for the arts committee. We have already spent how much to date?
I think we can bring that down to 9,000. From 15,000 down to 9,000 with a savings of 6,000. And if the arts council would like to maintain their building, they can pay for it. I'll second that one.
Counciloman Scarpa, please raise your hand, please. Oh, sorry about that. So, Maldo, so the mayor and I met with the arts council last week. I did send you today their uh profits and losses. I think I asked them for their budget. That's what they sent me, the profits and losses.
So, you should have received that today. We did. Um, so we did meet with them last Tuesday, I believe it was. and um they don't want to leave the space. They do want the council to assist them. They do uh wish that they could remain in a
partnership with the council. I'm just giving you what I came out of the meeting. Mhm. Um what they're asking for is that they understand that the council does not desire to pay for them anymore and they were hoping to at least get to November
1st and then they would seek their own um fundraising and then this way to try to save to take that money that they get from their fundraising giving the opportunity from August to November 1st to do fundraising so that they could start start sustaining themselves. So,
I'm asking on beha I'm asking on their behalf to you. I'm presenting to you what was in the meeting as a synopsis and that was the request and they ask and they understand that the council may or may not want to support this anymore. But that was if that's the case as it is
is we're speaking tonight that you consider paying for this to November 1st. That was that was what I was told to ask here and that's that's up to you to decide what you want to do. question, Mr. Devi. Thank you.
I'm recognizing. Thank you. Um, the understanding is they've got money in the bank. They've got about $40,000. I don't know that I I know they just said this to profitable. I didn't review that, so I don't know that. I I I can't
answer that for you. Well, I mean, if they do have that kind of money, that would more than cover the rent from now to November. I'm just relaying the message for I understand. Sorry. I get it. So that's that's my speech. We did meet
with them as as requested. I did get you the profits and and losses statement. And so I'm here to present their request. That's all. This doesn't have to do with funding. I'm sorry. Go ahead. This doesn't have to do with funding for the for the arts council. This only has
to do with the rent. And I did notice in the space study that this township paid for that the mayor requested that the space realignment also suggested that the arts council moved to the library. So this is in very much in line with
what the mayor would like. um they came before us, I guess, at the last meeting and I think the council spoke with one voice that this is not this is not something that we should be paying for um out of out of township and taxpayer
money. If they would like to cover the dis the difference to stay in nove till November, that's their choice. But my uh my request is that it this move down to $9,000 from 15,000 and that they can and
that we reduce this by 6,000. I'll second that. I mean, to me, this is no, I mean, this is this is the council cutting it. I mean, I think we've said our piece, Mr. Smaldo, uh,
there was some discussion about moving the arts council into the facility at 10 Rooney. Where does that stand? That's just like all the other projects with the um the capital request. We haven't discussed any capital cost yet. the the
the plan that we did for for the feasibility study was to create a space for the seniors the senior center uh up at 10 Rooney because um while originally it was supposed to be over here at the library uh which was
with the original concept, it was felt by all those who were involved that um this the parking space is very limited. the the uh access into the facility may be challenging for some of our seniors whether it be taking the elevator in or walking up around the path. Um so so we
thought what would be the most uh uh plus the fact that the library is already up at the senior center I mean at the um at 10 Rooney and we were looking to relocate the jitneys up there that we would look to put the seniors in that space and within that space
provide the arts council a a an area that they could take to store their paintings and maybe possibly even present them in the senior center because we would have staff there to make sure it's protected 24, you know, within hours of operation. So, that was that was the thought process behind
that. So, but we we haven't even um specked out the um this the space yet because we have to you know, we're going to have to get plans drawn and things of that nature and and then, you know, with the build and all that stuff. So realistically, you know, we're we we're
talking probably at least a year out at the minimum if not more to for that space. You know, that's that's also subject to presentation to the council on approval for per for capital. So right, I would say a build that is at least a year from the time we get monies at least.
At least not yet, but two years. Two years by time plans went into effect, engineering, architectural, MEPs. Yeah. So, you know, and I'm talking when I say a year, I'm talking after this the money's allocated, everything else, we we can begin the process of building
out. So, we're we're we're a long way out to to actually moving that particular part of the we're not doing it in the next three. We're not doing it by November. Let's put it that way. Guaranteed. Mr. Di, is that for the arts council or a different document? No, it's for our
senior services, but within there, we would carve out a there's there's enough rooms in there that we could donate a an office to them and as a space to just store some of their arts to lock it up. It's a small it would be a small area 10
by 20 or whatever it may be. It's it's a 48 4,800 square foot 4,800 square foot area. Um, and that was part of the original thought with when we did the feasibility study. And uh, the rest would be all for our seniors. You know, there would be, you know,
senior activities, there would be, um, there would be a little stage put in there or whatever else they can think about, you know, through the direction of Mr. Van Dijk's office to figure out what would be inside that space. And the the cost that you just outlined building
out the space that's you're suggesting that the town should be paying that to well build out their space for them. the space will be included in the core of the bill that costs you know we can negotiate with them but that was the the suggestion so that this way we're not we
would then we would eliminate the flying item all together would be once it's done it's space I mean one of the one of the sebab members suggests that the arts council charge their board members market rate uh when they use the space for events
rather than just using it for free we could you know that's that's down the road if we actually do the project and well that should be actually commencing immediately. I agree. I mean why postpone
I mean this is they've the council has already basically said they're not going to fund their existence and you know at least the the rent and all that. So to continue it any any amount over you
know past today doesn't make sense fiscally. Well, that's fine. You know, we're here to discuss that decision decision. That's I am I'm just reporting to you what the meeting I had and I'm reporting to what what you know what our
thought was with the um with the feasibility study and not everything will be accepted or or agreed upon and you know but just you know reporting what was asked. Okay. I have a comment.
Councilwoman Scarpa, would you please raise your hand? No. Would you please raise your hand before you speak? It has been I didn't realize that you saw it. Put it on mute. Raise your hand. Be recognized as unmute. This is This is really difficult for all of us here.
I know. I've had it raised though for 10 minutes. I didn't realize that you saw it. Please go ahead, Councilman. Um yeah, I just want to say that one of the problems we have with the budget, we can only cut so far is we need to
generate revenues. Right now we're generating revenue from that space. I'm not sure how prudent it is to start throwing a lot of money in there and uh putting these other um people in there investing in there when we are generating revenue. I would like to see
us generate revenue from that space. I know the seniors are not interested in going into that space in the library. Thank you. I'm finished. Good. Mr. Swallow. I don't know. I I don't know that the seniors don't. I
know that the senior director does. She's the people that she deals with want to go there. They like the idea that they could be brought up to the senior center and the library as an all-inclusive trip. But uh that again this is this was a report that was presented a study and you know nothing has been done with it yet. We just
presented it as as an option of what we could do to serve the residents better. That's all. So I just I'm pretty wellworked out with the seniors. So you know there might be a small portion that are interested in that but I know the majority that I've spoken to are not.
Thank you. Okay, Councilwoman, are you expecting to get through this page before in the next seven minutes? Yes. No. Yeah, really. There's no way. Well, there's also a motion on the on
the floor. I'm sorry. Is there a motion, Penny? Yeah, you made a motion and it was seconded by Councilwoman Scarper to cut this 6,000 So, so we're discussing based on the motion. Do you have a a motion?
No, I've been I've just been writing down the line items. Okay. That are up for discussion. Okay. I definitely heard is that Councilwoman Ruden starts asking a question about something and says you're she's interested in cutting and
she doesn't make a motion and then Councilwoman Scarpa seconds a motion that doesn't exist. So, I think that's what's actually happened here. So, I want to just go back to Councilwoman Ruden. Okay. Um, I will officially make a motion now.
Okay. And what is your motion? My motion is to reduce the arts council by 6,000. I'll second that. Okay. So, the budget request is 15,000. You want to reduce that by 6,000. Correct. Down to 9,000.
Yes. Did have we discussed yet? Uh so so we have a motion now there's discussion. I just want to ask how much uh has been spent on the uh the subsidy for the arts council uh on this line item so far this
year. So we spent 14 um but we have not factored in the $500 per month that they've given us. So, so eight months, that's four grand less.
So, what's the net here? 10. So, the net is 10 and Councilwoman Ruden is suggesting that it be reduced to nine. So, we've already we we correct me if I'm wrong, but the sub the sub account would be
overexpended, but we could absorb the hit. Okay. The hit overall. Okay. And so, and so what you're suggesting or indicating, Councilwoman Ruden, so their their August subsidy payment would not be made. Is
that Do I understand that correctly? I don't know if it already has, but that's essentially that's already in covered, isn't it? No. 14,000 includes
January through July. Okay. I do believe we have a 30-day clause with them. You speak into the microphone, please. I do believe we have a 30-day notice to them. So, I don't know if if we'd be in breach with that, uh, you know, to get
the exact number. Um, I believe that that was the agreement. It says 30-day notice and since it's August 4th, um, I don't know if we'd be in breach. So, I'm just letting you know that. That's all to make your decision and whether we
whether we pay it now or we have to let them know for the 30-day notice. So, okay, Councilwoman Scarfa. Yeah, I thought that agreement was with the landlord, not with the arts council.
They couldn't foot the bill for the August. Isn't that agreement with the landlord? It is. Yes, it is. The agreement with So, right. Okay. Who's the counterparty? Is it the township with the uh with hands? Yes.
Okay. So, that's the contract. And you're saying that you're not sure whether it has a 30-day I believe the agreement with them was that we have to give the arts council 30-day notice so they know to start paying the bill, but I I could double check that. I just want to make I just want to make
sure we're not breaching anything that we Oh, that's for sure. Councilwoman Scarpa, are you are do you still have the floor? No, I'm done. Okay. Can we
Mr. Bowie? I've got a Are we done with that line item or No, we have a motion. I'm sorry. I'll come come back to me. Come back to me. Okay. So, this
if I if I could if I could. Is that okay with everybody? Yes. I'd like to suggest that we give careful consideration to the fact that our contract might require us to give a 30-day notice and what the impact of of
that's going to be. All right. So, is what we're saying is we're going to cut off this money to them on August 4th before the August payment is made. And we don't know whether we need to give 30-day notice
is I I don't have that answer for you. I just want to make sure that we're I'll I'll find that out tomorrow for you to just let you know what we're Councilwoman Scarpa. Yeah, we can if there's a problem. I read the contract. I don't remember seeing that, but if there's a problem,
we can always put it back in. I think we should just move forward. Thank you. Okay. Is there any further discussion? You're just teasing me, ready? No. You're scratching your ears, making me think you're raising your hand.
You're But you're not. Not for this item. Okay. I got other things. Okay. Okay. So there's a uh uh just to close my discussion, I I I I know there can be an argument made that
this is not an abrupt change that uh uh that they have been that the arts council has been told for months that this is is in the works and that they should prepare. I think that's I think that's a fair statement. Um,
I'm uh I'm inclined to sort out the contract and and uh give them the 30 days notice before we cut off the money. That said, that said, in 2013, I voted against this contract. This was one of the four to
one Joe votes when I was on the council before, and I didn't think it was a wise use of our money. uh and I still don't but I also feel that these folks have had this subsidy for 12 years and this
is a little bit too abrupt uh of of an of an action but so anyway any more discussion madam clerk councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa
yes council president Koviaak no the motion carries Thank you. So, it's now 10 o'clock and I agree with Mr. Tiniac. We are not going to get through this page. So,
let's just save it at 07A rental 551 Valley Road and we will pick this up at the next meeting. Is that okay with everyone? Do we have consent? I'm okay to stay. Can question, please. Hold on just a Hold on just a second.
Uh, Madam Clerk has a floor. Um, I apologize. I just want to make sure I at least I have my records prepped. Um, I know there was a discussion to reduce 071 by 7,000, 072 by 1,000, and 073 by 4,000. Um, should I keep that or and for
discussion on Thursday? Yes. Okay. But you have o71 by one by what? 7,000. Mhm. And that was for janitorial services, right? 072, the HVAC service contract, uh,
reduced by 1,000. Correct. And 073 for miscellaneous repairs, um, reduced by 4,000. Yes. Okay. And then this one too. And then 0 07A. Yeah. And we just took care of that one in in its entirety. So, okay.
That was a motion. Yes. But the first three were basically consent by the administration with the council. So Okay. It wasn't actually a motion. Okay. So, but but that that was okay. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Councilwoman Ruden is is a hard bargainer.
I do not want to try to buy be a cross with her on a house sale ever. Motion to adjurnn. President. I'm sorry, Mr. I forgot about you. Sorry. So for Thursday night, Thursday evening, we have director Reynolds
coming back. Um, we still have Miss Van Djk was not available Thursday or Friday, she said. But I did invite the recreation department. We still have the building department. So I don't know. And if you're inviting the the sebab to come back, um, would it be fair to say
to invite Director Reynolds and the recreation department and trying to get through that? Then I'll save Miss Van Djk and Mr. uh, Mr. beyond you for another day. Yes, I I I would do that because I again I want to devote the first uh 45 minutes or so, maybe a little bit longer to the
meeting on Thursday to delve into some of these great issues that they've raised. Okay. So, so we'll we'll plan on DBW and recreation for Thursday night. Yeah, I think that that should pretty much fair. Okay. I just wanted to make sure we're so I make sure Thank you. Thank
you. That's at 6 PM. Okay. Please be reminded I have the uh the mayor's office hours that night too. So yes, Council Scarfa. Yeah. Can I just ask Mr. Diniac to make sure he has the running totals for us?
Yeah, we'll update with what we did tonight. Great. Thank you. Anybody else? Motion to adjurnn. Got to have a second. Going to stick here. We got a second. All those in favor
I I All those opposed are we? We are adjourned. Mr. Fagan, please with extreme prejudice.