Good afternoon, West Orange, and welcome to the special township council meeting for August 22nd, 2025. We're coming to you live from council chambers and um as you will see that there's only one
person on the day is today that is council president uh council president. Everyone else including the township attorney is joining us via zoom. So, at this point, I'd like to turn the meeting over to our council president. >> Okay. If I'm the only one up on the
deis, who is this person sitting to my left? >> And should she be here? >> I don't think so. >> Would you rather be somewhere else, Madam Clerk? >> Yes, sir. I would. Thank you for asking. >> Yes. >> Uh, for the record, uh, uh, Mr. Burke is
on the, uh, on the call now. >> Super. And recording has started. >> Yes, it has. We are live. >> Welcome. from uh West Orange uh to uh a special council meeting late on a Friday in late August. So, thank you for attending. Uh madame clerk.
>> Yes. This is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with section 5 of the open public meetings act chapter 231 public law 1975. The notice for this meeting was emailed to the Star Ledger and the West Orange Chronicle on August 20th, 2025.
Councilwoman Castelino, >> present. >> Councilwoman Ruden, >> here. >> Councilwoman Scarpa, >> present. >> Council President Koviaak, >> present. >> Will everyone please rise for the pledge of allegiance? >> Pledge allegiance to the flagy.
The council is now in their public meeting. >> Thank you, madame clerk. Uh we are here with basically two items on the agenda. Uh only one of them is where we're actually going to take action tonight. Uh but it probably requires a little bit
of background. Normally during uh a council meeting, we are required to have public comment and we're happy to have public comment. Because this is a a Zoom hybrid meeting, only public comment in person is allowed. And before we went
online with the Zoom, I just asked everybody in the audience if they wanted to do public comment. Nobody did. That's going to save us somewhere between five and seven minutes where I go into my saliloquy about how we do public comment. So we will move immediately to
the uh agenda item and uh just want to put this into context. We had another special meeting this past Wednesday, two days ago uh because of the way that we are required uh uh by the town attorney's legal opinion for the council
to promote legislation. So, at Wednesday's meeting, we voted unanimously for nothing to move the resolution forward onto a more formal agenda, and that's what we're doing today for uh an actual vote that has uh
legal implications. So, just as background, uh the mayor sued the council more than two years ago largely over the issue of whether the town attorney and his law firm could continue with the township. And the town attorney and firm are also parties to the
litigation. And we've said uh previously at uh at public meetings, the sides are trying to reach agreement to settle litigation. These discussions have continued for months. During this time, the former interim business administrator resigned. And according to
an email he sent, the mayor appointed assistant the assistant business administrator to interim business administrator effective May 1st along with a significant increase in compensation. Under our form of government, council has advice and consent authority over certain high
level mayoral appointments. We also have an ordinance granting similar powers. Council is here today to consider using this advice and consent authority over the interim business administrator appointment. The settlement negotiations have included several mayoral
appointments subject to the council's advice and consent, including the town attorney and business administrator. The town attorney has provided a legal opinion that council must first approve any Well, I just explained that. Uh let's see.
Uh once we approve this on Wednesday, this approved legislation then goes to the town attorney for review and to be put into proper legal form for the consideration for another vote, which is today. The vote today has uh potential legal implications for the status of the
interim BA and potential financial implications and hopefully we will reach an agreement on settling the litigation very soon. The resolution resolution 192-25 is now on the township website. The
title of it is resolution memorializing the expiration of the 60-day period of the mayor's apparent appointment of the interim business administrator and withholding council authorization of any extension of such time period at this time.
So along with the town attorney's return of the resolution into in proper form, he sent a letter to the council. And I just wanted to read uh uh some excerpts from that just so you get more of a flavor of of
how uh your municipal government is and is not operating uh efficiently at this time. Uh this is excerpts from the letter from Mr. tran to the council. The law department was sent a complete copy of the resolution for the first time on
August 20th, 2025 at 5:15 p.m. It is evident that a council member or members drafted this with no input or review by the legal by the law department, excuse me. The law department has not had time to review the legality of the resolution
nor opine that the same is permissible under New Jersey law. Notwithstanding the plain language of the resolution and the timing of the township council established the following. One, the language indicating that quote the position of the interim business
administrator is part of the discussions of potential of to potentially settle the litigation filed by Mayor McCartney dot dot dot without successful settlement so far end quote is wholly inappropriate. And two, the fact that the township
council is seeking to immediately adopt the resolution by scheduling serial emergent meetings serial s i a l approximately 51 hours apart is highly problematic where a no emergency exists,
b the law department has not been given sufficient time to review any potential legal issues, c no threat to health or safety exists, and d the only purpose for The short timing of this resolution appears to be to intimidate the mayor
andor force a settlement of the pending litigation brought by the mayor which has nothing to do with the business administrator position. Just going to end it with that quote uh excerpt from the letter and then I want to just make a couple of
comments. First of all, uh as we as we look at this and as as you can see from the resolution, the promotion of the assistant business uh administrator to interim business administrator came with
a a substantial significant increase in uh compensation. If we are not going to be moving to a settlement quickly, we can save money by not keeping him at the uh appointment
level. Second, I can't help but notice that the town attorney sent this letter when he and his law firm still had approximately another 20 hours to conduct further research on the legality of the resolution, as he references in
his letter. But you should also know that the town attorney has months ago appointed a special counsel to advise township council on legal matters related to council meetings. This is because of the conflict of interest between him and his law firm and the
township council which has twice tried to remove him and his firm from township service. This is directly related to the ongoing litigation. The special counsel firm has aly reviewed and amended the draft resolution and advised the council
on its role in the special meetings this week. Uh Mr. Burke who uh is uh attending the meeting from uh Zoom is a partner in the firm serving as special counsel. And one last thing, this is not a
meeting to discuss a personnel issue. This is a meeting to discuss council's advice and consent authority. We will not discuss anything related to a personnel matter such as performance and qualifications because of the potential legal ramifications.
So we have one agenda item. It is consideration of the resolution. Uh the resolution memorializing the expiration of the 60-day period of the mayor's apparent appointment of the interim business administrator and withholding council authorization of any extension
of such period time period at this time. I'd like to make a motion, council president, to uh move that resolution. Although I second >> although I and then I just want to discuss before we vote. >> Yes, we always uh have the potential for
to discuss. Madam clerk, did you get the second? >> I did. >> Okay. Uh so we have a motion on the floor. Is there any discussion? If there is, can you just raise your hand, your digital hand, uh so that Mr. Uh Fagan can let me know that somebody would like
to speak. I'm just going to call on uh Councilwoman Castalino because she >> Burke has his hand. >> Oh, Mr. Burke has his hand raise. >> Mr. Burke, >> Council President, thank you. I just wanted to reiterate our instructions from the the prior special meeting and recommendation that um you know, you can
have some discussion if you'd like, but please don't refer to Mr. Maldo or uh you know discuss his employment or any potential adverse actions against him uh because he hasn't been rice noticed for the meeting. >> Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Burke.
Councilwoman Castalino. >> No, thank you, Council President. I just want to apologize to the public and and and our staff that I am not there today. Uh originally, I'd wanted to meet on Monday and so I could be in council
chambers. Um number one uh for that cuz I feel this is important. Number two I'm not going to discuss uh because I just I I I think that it's all about this position has nothing to do with the person who fills it cuz that person is
outstanding uh in in his role. So this has to do with uh you know where we're at now. I'm very disappointed that we're here. I can't believe that we're still here. And um yeah, I I hope uh uh the
mayor is watching and that we could resolve uh all matters uh sooner than later. And I just want to apologize to the staff cuz I know morale has been down and uh that's a shame. It it shouldn't be. They all do such a wonderful job. Thank you, Council
President. >> Thank you. Is there another hand raised, Mr. Fagan? >> No. No. Council President, >> is there any further discussion? >> Uh, I'm sorry. Um, Councilwoman Ruden, just raised your hand. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Hi. Excuse me. I'm also sorry that I'm
still homesick with COVID. Um, I I just wanted to put on the record that according to our code, a um appointment, especially a department head, can only be interim for 60 days. And that 60 days was from May 1st to July 1st. So, I just
wanted to put that on the record so that everybody knows that um no appointment has officially been made since July 1st. Thank you. >> Yes. And just to to follow up, that's a very good point, Councilwoman Ruden. Our
ordinance allows the mayor to make certain appointments that are subject to advice and consent for a 60-day period, but not additional to the 60-day period without the advice and consent of the council. So, that's really what the uh
ordinance that we're looking at enforcing today uh with this resolution. Is there any further comment discussion? Madame clerk. Okay. Councilwoman Castelino, >> yes.
>> Councilwoman Ruden, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Scarpa, >> yes. >> Council President Koviaak, >> yes. >> The motion carries. >> Thank you, Madam Clerk. >> Um, I just have one question. Resolution, was it changed at all since
the copy that I had? Okay, >> I went over. It was not changed. >> All right. Thank you. So having done that uh the resolution also asks that certified copies of the resolution be handed to certain members of the administration including the mayor and
we hope to have uh action taken by the mayor based on this uh very quickly. So we will move on to the second agenda item. Uh Councilwoman Castelino, I think this was your agenda item. I would just like
before you speak to ask if if we could schedule this budget workshop at another date other than uh Tuesday evening because I have an obligation there. But anyway, please go ahead and speak. >> Yeah. So, we have to finish up our
budget and um you know, we have to go over uh some other departments, administration being one of them. And um so yeah, so we need to get a date sooner than later. So I wanted to uh put this
on today's agenda so we could discuss dates because apparently we need to this is the way we operate now. So um with that being said I don't know if my colleagues I know a few of them are busy next week but I don't want to go you
know later than the week after. So, I know some people are finishing up some vacations and whatnot and and this would be a longer meeting because we have I was I figured we need a couple hours we got to block out. So, I just wanted to know when everyone's scheduled so we
could schedule the next uh budget hearing so we could wrap it up. >> Thank you, Council President. >> Certainly. Madame Clerk is going to get her calendar because she's an important part of this. Uh is there any >> Go ahead. >> Excuse me. you know, um, did Mr. Did I
guess we also Mr. Diniac wasn't available today, so we kind of need his input, too, but I just wanted to to I'm not sure we have to pick the date right now, but as long as we have on the schedule, maybe Mr. Burke could weigh in on that. Um, I don't want to waste a lot
of time here if Mr. Datiniac isn't here because he's a integral piece of when we can meet. Thank you, Council President. >> Is there is any of the council members who cannot make a workshop next week?
>> There are some times that I cannot I cannot make on Wednesday >> and I cannot make for most of Tuesday as well. And I have a planning board meeting on
Monday evening at 6:30. >> Okay. >> I have two Tuesday night. I am good. And uh >> is this >> uh >> we're talking about next week? >> Okay. So next week, Mr. Datiniac is only available Wednesday or Friday during the
day. >> I can't do Friday. Well, I could be online on Friday. >> I could do Friday. I could do Friday online. >> When When you say uh Friday, do you mean during the day and uh in the evening or
what time or you think >> I could be available anytime? >> I think he's >> I'm only good in the um morning on Friday, I believe. I have to check. So, you're only available in the morning,
Councilwoman? >> Uh, yes. >> You think? >> I'm pretty sure, but I'll get back to you. >> Okay, this is sounding kind of complicated for next week. >> Can I Can I make a suggestion? >> Sure.
>> How is September 1st? Because it sounds like Friday is going to be difficult. >> First is a holiday. Yeah. Is >> that Labor Day? >> Yeah. >> You come in on Labor Day. >> I'm happy. Councilwoman Ruden, I salute your dedication. >> Absolutely. Anything Anything for the
community. >> Yeah, I'm available Labor Day, too. >> I am not. >> And I doubt Mr. Diniac will agree to that. >> Yeah, I veto that. >> Those of us in government with lives have other plans for September 1st. So, we really do need to look at another
time. >> September 2nd. I had I go back to school so I'm only available in the evening after the second. >> Yeah, I'm fine that night also. >> So are we now seeing that we do have
some availability for September 2nd? >> That works for me too >> in the evening. >> Yes, >> I'm good in the evening September 2nd too. >> How early can we start? Because I'd like to >> I could be available at by four. >> Great. Uh, that's good for me.
Uh, I need five. >> Madame Clerk, does that work for you? >> September 2nd, 5:00 p.m. >> I guess I don't get a dinner break. Yeah, that would be fine. I don't care. Um, I'd have to check with Mr. Denniac, but yeah, I could I can mention that to him.
>> I can I can bring you some Panera. >> No, it's fine. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um >> I I mean if we need to go later so she could have a dinner break. I'm like we need to accommodate our staff too. >> Yeah, I'm fine with that.
>> I I'll get a salad or something. It's fine. But you don't want to consider the 29th the Friday during the day. >> Next Friday during the day. >> Yeah. In the morning. >> I Well, um
>> I I can do the morning online. You can do the morning online next Friday the 29th. >> 9th, correct? >> Can everybody do this uh in the morning on the 29th? Maybe that's a little bit easier. >> Yes. >> Okay. What time?
>> I'm so glad you're here. >> Thank you. >> What do you think? 7 a.m. >> Oh, yes. That would be perfect. >> No, that's that's too easy. Too too early. Too late. >> Much too late. >> When would you like to start? 9:00 a.m.
>> That works for me. Or I >> That's fine. >> Fine with me. >> Actually, can we do 10? >> Yeah, that's fine, too. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm going to run both of these dates by Mr. Diniac and then I'll let
everyone know which works. >> Do we want to set up another time just as a backup in case that doesn't work for Mr. Diniac? Yes. Let's Let's hold to the budget meeting on September 2nd at 5:00 pm >> as our backup. >> Yeah. As a backup.
>> Okay, >> that's good. >> With or without silence. >> Okay, perfect. >> All right. Is there any other items for discussion? this being a special council meeting that we're not really uh we're
not legally allowed to speak about any other items of substance but if there's any uh other comment we want to make I will entertain that or entertain a motion to adjourn >> uh so
>> yes >> yeah I was I I just it was clarified be prior to the meeting I had pulled a an item uh 18725. Um that would automatically go on
September 8th. I'd like to make a motion to put it on one of those budget hearings. Is that possible? Am I allowed to do that? So we could get it on sooner. I know Mr. Reynolds needed it sooner than later. So if we are going to be meeting sooner, we could
>> Is that possible? >> It's a budget workshop. It's not a public meeting. >> I know. >> So, you're talking about two different things. >> So, I I probably couldn't. >> So, Council Cast, are you asking for a
special council meeting to to get this uh moving? Is that what you wanted to do as opposed to a uh uh a budget workshop, which is uh Madame Clerk points out is not a public meeting? >> No, I know. I know. I just didn't know
the need for uh for Mr. Reynolds. So I I I don't know. I was I think he could wait to the ETH. If if not, I was trying to get it on sooner. >> Okay. Can Yeah. All right. Will you speak to him?
>> I can. Yeah. >> All right. And then you can let me know and then we'll go from there. >> Okay. It will be it will be much easier to schedule a tentative tentatively schedule another special meeting today while we have everybody here in a public
venue. Uh uh so we might want to have a tenative uh date for the special meeting date and time for the special meeting. >> Well, it would be one of the dates that we picked for the budget. So we could open and close and then go right into the workshop. >> Okay. So that's >> perfect. Right. >> Okay.
>> Yeah. So as soon as >> I just want to make sure it gets done for him sooner than later. >> I would Can you hear me? >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Yes. Hi. I would like to request that if there is a special meeting to put that
on that the cafe ordinance also be put on at the same time. >> Then you're going to get into hours of discussion. >> Not really. Actually, Councilwoman, the only problem with that is that's probably going to need a long public
comment and that should probably wait to the 8th because it's going to require public comment. >> Yeah, that's true. If you do it at 10 on Friday, >> we will if if we notice it >> and then we'll and we'll never Yeah, but we'll never get the budget done. We'll never get the budget done. I don't think
it's fair to do that. I think we as much as I know you want to get it done first. We don't have it back from planning, which we should for the ETH. And if it does come in sooner, I would have supported that. But I don't want to get criticized. We didn't give proper public uh public comment on it. And and we
shouldn't >> I'm sorry, Councilwoman. We've had public comment on this three different times. >> I would agree to get >> Okay. Okay. Guys, guys, guys, let's remember that the three of guys,
>> let's remember that the three of you are remote on Zoom and it gets very difficult to understand when all three of you are talking at the same time. So, can we please just sort of fall back to our regular process, which is please raise your digital hand and Mr. Fagan
will will get us going. Please. >> Uh, >> can I raise your digital hand? >> I'm sorry. Did you want to >> I wanted to raise my thing. >> Please, Mr. Cler. >> I just wanted to say that if if the if we end up having the budget workshop at 10:00 on August 29th in the morning, a
lot of people work and they if we add the cafe ordinance to that agenda, they're not going to have the opportunity to even see the meeting or, you know, come to council chambers to comment on it. Um, if we have it on the 2nd of September, that's a little bit
more reasonable because it's at five o'clock, which is still kind of early for people who are getting out of work and getting home. So, those things have to be considered also council. Oh, wait. I got two. >> Council Ruden,
>> thank you. Um, I just want to say that this has been to the planning board for review twice and that they have weighed in on this extensively and that their planner um said that this was in full compliance with our master plan. We have been through the gamut with this
particular or ordinance and this is just you know I feel that pushing this forward anymore if we are having a special meeting is just unnecessary delay and hurts the residents. Thank you. Well, I'll just weigh in. If if you want
to take a vote on scheduling this, uh, we can certainly do that if someone wants to make a motion because it sounds like we have some, uh, disagreement on on the timing of this. So, does anyone want to make a motion regarding the scheduling? I think C councilwoman Castelino wanted
to make a motion to have a special meeting if needed for 178. And I'm just requesting if 178 is going up that the cafe ordinance be addressed at that same time. >> I'll second it.
>> But we have two different tenative dates. So I need to know what time which meeting. I would like to make a motion for Friday for both to come up for Friday if it is needed >> at 10 in the morning. >> Correct. Thank you.
>> Wow. So, we began by discussing the uh public works uh legislation and I think we had agreement on that that that was going to go onto the agenda whichever of the two special meetings I mean the the
workshops that we have and then attach the special meeting >> correct >> designation to it. That seemed to be acceptable to everyone. Now, we appear to have a difference of opinion about the uh uh cafe ordinance, and Councilwoman
Ruden is has made a motion to include that in whatever special meeting we have ahead of the September uh um >> 8th. >> 8th. Thank you. Sorry. Uh the September 8th regular council meeting. So, I think
we have a motion and a second. >> We do. >> Yes. I second it. >> And uh does anyone want to discuss? >> Uh I I I do. >> Okay. So, are you raising your digital hand? Okay. Councilwoman Castleina, please go ahead.
>> Okay. So, I love to support and and keep working together, but here here's my problem with this. The only reason I wanted to have uh the one resolution move forward is because we really need it for our our to get uh the equipment
uh rental equipment order before we we lose our spot. I love to help out the residents with the uh outdoor cafe ordinance. The problem is it's just not fair if we don't have the proper public
comment and that is going to take a long time and then even if we have Friday morning people will come on and then we're never going to get to the budget. I do not have that much time on Friday. So I I really going to ask ask you
ladies to reconsider my colleagues and I I want to just do the one resolution. If not, then we'll just make a way to the the ETH because it's just we just we just got to, you know, I know everybody's excited and I I feel bad. It's been all summer that uh it should
have got done and and you're right about that, but I just think it's it's too wrong to make it right. I just think we have to have fair public comment uh in the evening and uh at a regular meeting and get it done the right way. Uh
otherwise we're going to jam up the bubble the uh the budget hearing and not have time for both. It's impossible. That's my I'm going to So I'm going to be a a no for both. >> Okay. So just as a reminder, please just
say thank you at the end of your comments. >> Sorry. Thank you. And I see Mr. Burke's hand up on the computer. >> Okay. Yes, that's who I'm going to call on. Mr. Burke. >> Thank you, Council President. I apologize. I don't want to um disrupt the council too much, but I did just want to point out that the township code
says that we really shouldn't be transaction transacting any business at the special meeting other than what we noticed this for. Um, and I just wouldn't want to uh have us discuss too much here and then there be something that would invalidate, you know, whatever we do at this next special meeting uh because we did more than we
should have in this meeting. So, I just wanted to caution uh the council and uh say that, you know, maybe we should should be careful about discussing too much more. >> Okay. Could could I could I get your opinion on what we're debating or discussing right now because we we did
notice on the agenda that we were going to try to schedule workshops. So, we've we've gotten to that point and then uh then we started talking about scheduling other items in relation to the budget workshop
timing for special meetings. So that was notice. Is that correct, Madam Clerk? >> That is correct. >> Okay. So that was not noticed in terms of uh either of these pieces of legislation,
but we do have the schedule for that. Um uh we have the schedule for the special meeting. So what we're looking at now is we have special meeting dates but we don't have the power or the authority to schedule
the agendas uh at this uh special meeting today. Is that correct interpretation of the law? Mr. Burke? Um well so looking at the code uh president of the township council may at any time upon written request of the majority of the council members call a special
meeting. Um so I think certainly we can we talked about the budget meetings. I think that makes sense. I think the discussion we've had so far is is reasonably related enough to the budget meetings. Um I just because we were sort of getting our toes towards talking about the merits of of the other ordinances and stuff. I just wanted to
to um advise that we maybe pull back a little bit on some of that. Yeah. And it sounds like from what you're saying is that we should not be discussing agenda items for the special meetings. That's that's how I'm interpreting what you're saying. And it's and you're just
talking about what's what it says in the ordinance. So, it sounds like we would need another special meeting in order to be able to discuss and vote on these agenda items. Does that does that sound about right?
>> I think I think so. I think you could you could set the agenda for the special meeting if you if you were to call it as the president. Um, but I just wanted to to to jump in before I know there was a little bit of discussion about the, you know, the public comment concerns about this other ordinance and things like
that. And I just didn't want us to get too far into the merits of discussing that ordinance while we're at a special meeting that really wasn't noticed for that ordinance and uh have there be some problem that that somebody would try to argue that you know we we exceeded the scope of this meeting and and bring some
question to that ordinance into into question. >> Okay. Well, that that makes sense. But it sounds like we we need to uh resend the motion and the second and we should not be scheduling agenda items without a
special meeting where these specific pieces of legislation are are uh on the agenda. Um does that does that sound like Mr. Burke what what we should be doing? >> I I think you're okay with what we've done so far. If you if you want to all,
you know, decide this budget meeting and then decide uh that you want to call a special meeting or not with that, I think that's fine. I just didn't want us to to start uh you know, the council members were were giving their thoughts on the ordinance generally and you know, the concerns the town's people may have about that and stuff and I just didn't
want us to get too far into that. >> Okay. So, pardon my confusion, but you're saying it's okay to schedule an agenda item, a specific piece of legislation on agenda item, just not to have discussion about
that agenda item. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Burke. Councilwoman Castelino, >> uh, I'll take my remove my motion for the special meeting. I'll res I'm going to rescend it. >> Okay. So when you say special meeting,
you mean the as the agenda item, the piece of legislation as an agenda item. Is that correct? >> The original uh the original as if if it's needed, then we could always make a special meeting after today. So I'm just going to walk it back. >> Okay.
And uh >> otherwise, Madame Clerk, there's no issue. It it should be on the ETH 187. >> Yes. >> Okay. But the motion and the second on the floor is to add the cafe ordinance to the special meeting. So there was no
motion by Councilwoman Castelino to it. That didn't need a motion to have um >> ask. Okay. >> Yeah. So >> again, too complicated, but thanks. >> Yeah. So we should really find out from Mr. Reynolds whether or not we even need
a special meeting for that purpose. So, Mr. Burke, just to confirm, we can decide to add either one of these pieces of legislation to either of the special meeting dates that we've set up and we need to confirm. Is that correct? We can at least just
add them without discussion or at least take a vote. I guess take a vote without discussion. I I would say uh council president that that you have the power to set an agenda and you have the power to call for a special meeting. So I would probably recommend doing it that way.
>> Okay. Uh so now what you're saying is we don't need a vote. We just need a council president that understands what the heck is going on. >> No, I I certainly wouldn't phrase it that way. I think we have
>> uh so I'm I'm uh if if I'm the one that sets this leg this uh >> uh the legislation potentially I I would say yes, let's try to move forward on uh the p the public works uh issue. And I I
will also say I completely share and understand Councilwoman Ruden's frustration with not being able to move forward on this cafe audience uh uh ordinance. I'm sorry. It has been virtually the entire summer that we have been trying to get this uh moving
forward again after being stuck and we still don't know if we can if we can move it forward. That said, we have uh ample evidence that there is a great deal of interest among residents and
among uh business people who have businesses in town about the cafe audience. And I think it's likely that we will get uh significant public comment on uh that ordinance when it comes uh onto an agenda when it eventually gets to an agenda. And I
would I would like to not uh I would like to accommodate that as easily as possible. And that is going to be at a regular uh council meeting where people will have a tradition and understanding of of when to come to the
council meetings. But scheduling public comment at a special meeting in in a morning or in an early afternoon, an early evening, I think is going to make it more challenging and more difficult for people to uh make the public comment
in person. So I would uh advocate uh uh leaving the uh cafe ordinance to the regular agenda on September 8th. um only because not because of anything of Councilwoman Ruden's extraordinary
efforts to try to get this moving, but only because it would accommodate residents who who would like to uh have the easiest way for them to make public comment. So, I'm just going to unilaterally giving what Mr. uh
uh Mr. Burke said that that's we'll we'll do that. Um uh and I think that's >> so I I just want to ask there is a motion in a second to add the cafe a
ordinance. So does do we just how does that work? >> I think we're asking you Mr. Burke. >> Um I I would recommend not making that motion right now because I wouldn't want to invalidate the ordinance. So, I'd recommend uh >> So, should it be rescended?
>> Yes, I think that would be the best move. >> So, Councilwoman Ruden would have to resend first and then Councilwoman Scarpa. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Yes. I I don't understand why one ordinance can get on yet not another.
>> I'm recommending that no ordinances be be voted on in any way right now. I don't want the ordinance to be put up and then have something invalidated because we discussed something outside the scope of the special meeting. So I you're welcome to make the motion if you disagree with me, but I don't want you to have the ordinance passed and then
invalidated. So that's why I'm recommending that there be no motion on it right now. >> We're not discussing the the pros and cons of the ordinance. We're just asking that the ordinance be put up for for a vote. We've been trying to to work on this on
this exact resolution for about six months and are continuingly getting pushed back by the administration. So there we're not really talking about the ordinance itself. I'm just asking that if there is a special meeting that this
be part of it. And we have had public comment on this three times. Very extensive public comment. I think we've heard everything that the public has concerns with and we have made substantial adjustments to the to the
ordinance as a result of the public comment. We're just talking about scheduling this on and the public will have a week to to be notified about this. >> Thank you. I'm not sure if Councilwoman Ruden's
comments were directed towards Mr. Burke, but it it seems appropriate, even though Councilwoman Scarpa has her hand up, I think it might be more appropriate at this time to just have Mr. Burke respond uh to Councilwoman Ruden's follow on this.
>> I I am just cautioning the council that the township code provides that we should be conducting no business outside of what's been noticed for the meeting. I think we're already pushing that a little bit by talking about agenda items for a special meeting that's related to the budget meeting. I think that's I can
make an argument that that's related enough that the the budget meeting was noticed for this, but getting into motions about what to add to that agenda and stuff I think is pushing it a little bit too far. So, if the councilwoman doesn't want to withdraw her motion, then it can be voted on. But I think it
would be more safe for the council president to set that agenda than have the council vote on it because I wouldn't want someone to invalidate that ordinance by saying that it was put on the agenda improperly at a special meeting that it wasn't noticed for. >> Councilwoman Ruden,
>> yes, I think that that this would be properly noticed and that the public would be able to weigh in. So, I don't think that it could invalidate an ordinance um in the way in the process that we're doing it. We're just moving it forward
to finally carry out an ordinance that we've all been working on and concerned about for about six months at least. Thank you. >> Yes, Councilman Ruden. Uh you're absolutely right. Eventually, we will move this forward and we're talking about a number of days that uh uh the
difference here. Uh we do have Mr. Burke saying that it would be inappropriate at this time to take a vote that was not noticed in this in the agenda of the special meeting tonight. Perhaps uh not tonight, today. Uh so I think your
argument seems to be with me and perhaps we should talk at uh you and I uh at a later time and try to figure this this out here. And uh we I think we need to abide by Mr. Burke's council, which is that we should not be taking this vote
uh now. Tonight, today. I keep saying tonight. Sorry, it's been a long day. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Uh, yes. I'm I'm just my my issue is is not with you, um, Council President. I'm I just don't understand how this could
possibly invalidate anything having to do with an ordinance that has been on the agenda several times for first reading back to the planning board twice. We've gotten their initial response. The second planning board
meeting had only one change to it which the planning board itself did not discuss. They went back and discussed everything else. But um however, their their planning director or planning um specialist said specifically that this
ordinance was in compliance with the master plan. >> I see the sign. >> Okay. So it I don't I do not believe that posting this on another agenda just to move this forward would invalidate the ordinance.
We just, you know, we just passed a resolution today and that that's not going to be invalid invalidated. So why would it be invalidated if we put an put this on a special meeting that uh council councilwoman Castelino has
requested for 17825? Yes, I again I share your frustration, but I I do think it's important that we follow the law and we follow the legal guidance. Uh the last thing we would want is to spend any time and then have something happen that invalidates uh the
action related to the cafe ordinance and slows it down even more. Um so again, I share your frustration. You've been doing great work on this and it's been totally frustrated. Now, you're being told it might take another week or two
to get there, but I think uh I think it's the appropriate thing to do is to follow Mr. Burke's guidance that we not put it on, that you and I find a time to talk about this to see uh what we can do going forward. But I think uh
I obviously can't force you to resend your motion uh or resend the second, but that's would be the orderly uh that would be the orderly pro process uh for the meeting so that we can uh we can adjourn.
>> I understand. I would just like to hear uh Councilwoman Scarpa's thoughts before before I make a move. Thank you. >> Okay. Well, you you won't be making a motion. you would be rescending it at at this time. So, I just want to clarify, Councilwoman Scarpa.
>> Yeah. I just want to say that this has been stonewalled now for months and I really feel unless there is a definitive uh reason why we cannot do it that we
move forward. >> You have to say thank you. >> Thank you. Council President, can I just ask Mr. Burke question? >> Sure. Uh Mr. Burke, uh Madame Clerk would like to uh ask you a question. >> Certainly. >> Mr. Burke, if the council women do not
resend their motions, how how is that handled? >> Do we take a vote? >> Yes, I think we need to vote on them then. Um, I think just briefly to clarify, my concern is just that the code provides in a special meeting, we cannot conduct business outside of what
the special meeting was noticed for. This special meeting today is what I'm cautioning you about. We have noticed this meeting for budget uh scheduling and for this other resolution. We're now outside of those two things. I think scheduling another special meeting and
commenting that we should maybe have one in conjunction with the budget meeting is related enough to that, but I think adding things to that agenda and arguing about whether they should be on that agenda or not could potentially exceed that that would certainly be conducting business. And I wouldn't want anything
that was added to that to be challenged in some way because we exceeded the amount of business that we should have for this this special meeting today is what I'm talking about. Okay, thank you. The other thing is uh there was no resolution approved to
place resolution 18725 back onto an agenda. It was a resolution that had been tabled previously and I was asked to put it back on the agenda um on the ETH or yeah on the ETH unless it's needed earlier then a special meeting
would be called. >> Okay. I I have to stop this as council president. I think we have gotten uh extremely clear guidance, legal guidance from our council and I'm sorry if people feel like any of the council members feel like they can't accept the legal
guidance, but we have to follow the law and I think in the long run this is the the way to go. So, uh either either you uh Councilwoman Ruden and Councilwoman Scarpa, you can either resend your motion or second. Uh but I'm going to close the meeting because we have legal
advice that we should not be doing this and uh and I I I think we've uh drained the me drain the uh issue and I think it's clear from Mr. Burke that we can't do this.
Councilman Ruden. >> Yes. Out of deference to our council, I'd like to resend the motion. >> A second. >> Thank you. When you say second, Councilwoman Scarpa, do you mean you also send your second? >> Yes.
>> Great. Thank you very much. And uh so there so what we have done now is we have scheduled budget workshop, tenative budget workshops. We're going to confirm that availability and then we're going to attach a special meeting that we have appropriately approved tonight,
>> today, excuse me. And >> it's practically night time. and then we will we will figure out before the before the meeting how we should do this scheduling and uh I appreciate everybody's patience and everybody's
concern uh we will get this done but we have to do it uh according to uh Mr. Burke's guidance. Do I hear a motion to adjurnn? >> I make a motion to adjurnn. >> I'll second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I
>> I. Any opposed? The meeting is adjourned. >> Thank you, council. Madame clerk, >> thank you.