Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody in West Orange. This is our. Uh, 15th workshop for the 2025 Municipal Budget. This one on September 12, 2025. Before I go further, I'm going to ask Madam Clerk to do her thing. Please. This is to inform the general public that this workshop is being held in compliance with Section 5 of the Open Public Meetings Act, Chapter 231, Public Law 1975.
The notice for this workshop was emailed to the West Orange Chronicle and the Star Ledger on September 10th, 202. Councilwoman Casolino? Present. Councilwoman Rudin? Here. Councilwoman Scarpa? Councilman… I've spoken with Councilman Scarpa, she is on her way. Okay, thank you. Council President Krokowiak. Present. Thank you, Madam Clerk. Uh, the draft budget from the Mayor proposed to raise municipal property taxes by more than 6%. We've knocked that increase to around 1%, and we're looking for additional efficiencies and savings. We're also looking to, uh.
Finish our workshop. Budget workshop, uh… process. Um… If you want to follow along, please go to the Township West website, westorange.org, use the search box in the upper right hand of the page. Type in budget, then click on the first result, and you'll see the top item is the budget version dated July 22nd that we'll be working from. Today. That will soon be updated after this meeting. Uh, and then, uh, Mr. Tiniak will take you on a guided tour, uh, presently.
Uh, as we move forward. We are not taking public comment. If you want to comment or ask questions, please send an email to council at westorange.org. Which, despite what you may think, also goes to the mayor and several people in her administration. If you want to send just to the Council, send it to one of us and ask for distribution to each of us. If you need email addresses, search for Council on the Township website. Recordings of the workshops are on the Township website. Find them by searching for Video Gallery. Uh, our, uh… Citizens Budget Advisory Board.
Representatives tonight at… on the dais. Our Ms. Edie Baer, and also, uh, we're going to have, uh, Mr. Todd Debovy. Uh, who has requested another CBAB member who has requested an opportunity to comment. On the CBAP's proposal for a forensic audit, before he has to leave for another commitment shortly. Lastly, I urge everyone to consider time efficiency in their comments and questioning to be sure what you say is necessary and on point to the task today.
The faster we carefully go through the budget, the better. Mr. Teniac, you understand the… Slide on the screen, so… You'll have to take it from here. Thank you, Council President. So, before we actually go to the website and… and we start looking at. Um, the budget documents for today. We are going to do a quick recap of where we started and where we are currently. And, um, also provide guidance to the Council. Uh, that is interested in the $0 increase on where you need to be.
So, I'm going to begin up here. Um, with my, uh. Mayor's proposed budget, so this was the budget that was given to the Council in the middle of April. Uh, it included a $243.31. Increase on the average home, um, on the municipal side, so not including county. Or the school taxes. Um, just a point of reference, the average home assessed value is $615,47.
So the council… In their budget hearings. With the department heads, with the administration. Reduced that proposed budget. By cutting the average increase by $162.48. Um, leaving the average increase. At $80.83, that was what was introduced in July. We've had, um, further hearings since then.
And through what will end up being a resolution to amend the budget. At this point, the Council has reduced. Uh, the budget further by $43.72. Um… They did that with cutting $710,000 in appropriations. Uh, so that leaves the… Average home increase. At $37.11. To get to a $0 increase. The Council would need to cut an additional $603,000. That gets you to…
You know, maybe half a penny or close to zero. Um… So that's… that's the recap of, uh, where we were and where we are now, and. Where you would want to go. Um, anything else, Council President? Uh, I asked my colleagues, does anybody have any questions? Okay, so… Yes. Let the record show that Councilwoman Scarpa has arrived?
Thank you. So, as I mentioned at the introduction, I guess before… why don't we go through what you were going to show us in terms of what people are going to get to the budget online? Oh, yes, and then we'll get to Mr. Debobi. Okay, so, uh, for the public at home. Um, watching through the Zoom. Just want to go through a very quick, uh… tour through our township website, westorange.org. Um, from the front page. I usually go this way, I go into departments.
And then I go down to finance. And on the side here, um, these hot links here, there's a budget, or hyperlinks, I should say. Uh, there's a budget section. You can open that. And under the 2025 municipal budget, I'm going to point to two different files. Um, the first is the document that we're going to look at today. It's the municipal budget as of July 22nd. Uh, it obviously does not reflect. The amendments, this is the introduced budget. Um, when we figure out all of our amendments, we'll put out a new version.
The other, um, file that I want to point to is the 2025 Citizens Budget Advisory Board Preliminary report to the Township Council. This is going to be replaced very soon with a final. Finalized version. Um, but everyone at home is welcome to… Download the file, print it. Um, it's searchable, and there's a lot of great information from the CBAB. Mr. Tinak, sorry to interrupt, but there are now two versions of the CBAP report, one that was sent around today. Yeah. Is this today's.
No, this is… this is the old one. That's what I was saying, it's going to be replaced with that version that… that came out. Okay, and they're still saying that that's a draft? And… Yeah, we'll just call it V2, or we can leave this version up, and… Post… have them both posted, it's up to CBAB. Put both of them up? Or replace. Don't ask Mr. Duvovey, he's power-hungry. It probably makes sense.
That may be to kick them both, that way it's a trail. Yeah, so we'll, we'll label it. So that it's separated, or we can put today's date on there so that the people at home know that, um, you know, this is a… an updated version, but we will get that up on the website. Great, thank you. Any questions? As I may have explained, and you, uh. Mr. Bovee has someplace, another commitment to go to, so he requested that he be allowed to speak. Uh, about the CVABs. Uh, most recent.
Rationale for the requesting the forensic audit, and uh… So I just asked Ms. Baer, who's. Who was the appointed person. Uh, if she would just give way, uh, so Mr. Devovey could make his, make his comments. I'm sorry, Council President, do you have anything you want me to put on the screen? Okay. Thank you, Council President. Um, and… As, uh, was just said, um, my comments are specific to.
Uh, the merits are… of, uh, whether or not to consider doing a forensic audit. Um, we have heard, uh, from our current CFO, as well as our council president, and… from the 2023 audit that had been conducted that. Historically, funds have been moved around without proper tracking of those funds. Uh, this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to understand how those funds are used, and even whether.
They were used for their intended purpose. For a town with a $100 million municipal budget. We cannot afford to lose track of any taxpayer funds. Further, the lack of accountability for each and every dollar calls into question several concerns. First, are funds being misappropriated? Second. Systems being used to manage and handle those funds are insufficient. Third, the people who are responsible for oversight of the financial management of taxpayer dollars are not. May not be competent in carrying out the tasks they were employed to perform.
Um, I will note that… we are in the process of updating systems. Um, we have a new CFO. Um, and I think… Speaking for myself, I see improvement just in those two. Aspects. Um… When questions are asked of township staff as to where the funds went and those questions are answered with, we don't know, or just as concerning. Those questions are met with silence or a refusal to answer. The only way to secure answers.
Is through engaging in an independent third party to conduct a thorough review and audit. An issuance of a comprehensive and detailed report. Such reports identify lack of sufficient policies and procedures. Failure of employees to follow said policies and procedures, and provide evidence of potential. Uh… criminal behavior. It is not sufficient to leave these questions unanswered. As this is a material breach of elected officials, fiduciary duty to taxpayers. Accountability is paramount. An example of another industry that uses audit reviews is trust and estate management, which I spent 30 years.
Doing. Um, corporate executors and trustees tend to be financial corporations, such as banks and company, uh, trust companies. The level of government oversight of these businesses is massive in that multiple agencies, federal and state. Review the records of these businesses to ensure proper handling of fiduciary client funds. The U.S. Controller of the currency and state controller's offices. Conduct regular audits of these firms' business practices. Penalties and sanctions for identification of any failure to comply with federal and state laws.
Governing corporate producers are steep and can result in loss of national and state charters, which can eliminate a corporate fiduciary's ability to conduct. It's business. Audits are typically conducted every 1 to 3 years. Because of the severity… well, I'll just add, too, that sometimes they're conducted simultaneously by different agencies, so. During my course of my career. I was constantly answering. Two auditors. Um… Because of the severity of punishment of corporate fiduciaries, corporate fiduciaries themselves conduct their own internal audits annually as well.
These frequent audits by multiple agencies and internal audit departments ensure that client funds are safeguarded. And have a major impact on how fiduciaries conduct their business. All of which results in fostering an environment of accountability. How does that relate to township? Given how much money passes through the hands of municipal governments, it's imperative that governments, and especially West Orange, are audited. Regularly to safeguard taxpayer dollars. It is the apparent lack of oversight of municipal governments that results in loss, misplace.
Were stolen taxpayer funds. Often in amounts that are staggering to comprehend. As municipalities are run by human beings, errors are bound to occur. However, if there are no regular audits to minimize such errors. It fosters an environment that is susceptible to purposeful misappropriation of funds. Therefore, regular periodic audits of the financial records of any municipality. Should and must be made a part of how municipalities conduct business.
Um, in our report, we refer to an audit that was conducted by Clifton. Uh, and that… and the audit results… that they uncovered have shown that the immediate payoff of the cost of the audit. Can be substantial. Um, if the amount of immediate benefit that was said to be in the millions is only 1 million, the return to Clifton taxpayers on their $150,000. Investment was over 650%. If it is 2 million, consistent with their indication of millions plural.
That number's over 1300%. The Comptroller's report that was done for West Orange identified noncompliance with both 2007 and 2010 state law. Regarding pay for approved sick leave at retirement. It did not quantify the cost to the township for such a noncompliance. But given the size of West Orange's payroll, it does not take much to conclude that the cost is likely. Substantial, maybe million. The independent audit conducted of 2023 for West Orange identified numerous areas where accounting was incomplete, inaccurate, and funds were unaccounted for.
Amounting to a total of over a million dollars. This related to grant funds, revenue collections, and funds due to the count. The citizen budget advisory board's estimates for conducting a forensic audit of 3 years is approximately $100,000. Which is actually in line with Clifton's expenditure of $100,000 for 2 years, plus an overview of 3 years in between. We have all heard about the township's former CFO's involvement in Dover's financial troubles.
Which they have attributed directly to his involvement. He worked for them for approximately a year. And appears to have caused material damage to Dover's finances. The former CFO was working for this town since 2011. 13 years. Do we simply ignore the message that our cursory audit of a single year has uncovered? Coupled with the news of other municipalities' findings related to the same CFO's practices. The benefit of a forensic audit will not simply be a potential immediate payoff.
It will establish an environment of accountability that will provide taxpayers with a future payoff of untold dollars for years to come. In the form of improved business practices. And we'll focus decision-making by elected officials for years and years into the future. These potential dividends pay down the road will materially change for the better the financial and economic. Condition of West Orange. This can, in turn reduce the tax burden on West Orange taxpayers.
And will likely result in a material increase in the overall tax base for the township through increased real estate values. Lower taxes and enhanced market values will achieve the goal of. Allowing our senior residents to retire in place, as so many have expressed. As impossible, given the current real estate trajectory. And it will significantly improve the financial picture for home and property owners long into the future. The business case for West Orange moving forward with its own forensic audit is clear, compelling, and quite frankly, indisputable in terms of the potential benefit.
For West Orange tackbears and residents. I appreciate your… allowing me to… To speak. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Dubovi. I suppose that, uh. We should ask questions of Mr. Bovee, because I'm not sure when he has to leave, but he has to leave. Does anybody have any… Follow-up questions? Sure. Thank you, Mr. Devovey, for your work. I know the committee's been working hard on this.
So… so last… 2 years ago, we… Council voted to. Do a financial audit right before the departure of… Uh… Councilwoman Williams and Councilman Rutherford. So, I guess, what, 2023 was that? Yeah, that was… that audit, yeah. That audit, 2024, right? You… you started 2025. Um, so my question for you at that time, pricing was coming back of, like, a million dollars, number one.
Um, so how did Clifton… get an audit done for $150,000. We were looking at pricing for… And again, I don't have it in front of me. So, I don't remember how many years that, um, it was for. I think it maybe started out as 5, maybe? I'm not sure, the one from… no, for us, that we were looking at, then they were gonna scale it back. I've… I've only heard, uh, discussion of about 3 years. 3 years, okay.
To respond to your question about the cost. Um, the million dollar number that we had heard. Was anecdotal, I believe. Um, I don't believe that a whole lot of research was put into. That number. The Citizens Budget Advisory Board. Did look into and spoke to. Different accounting firms, and actually received estimates from more than one accounting firm.
As to what it really costs. And that's where the $100,000 number that we've been told. Comes from. So… I think it's safe to say that. Taking a fact-based. Estimate that we have. Versus the anecdotal, uh… estimate of a million dollars, which… Probably was more designed to dissuade us from even considering. And then my next question, what would the recommendation be of the committee because, um…
Council President has been speaking to, which I agree with, of having more of a targeted approach. As thrown out the whole year, like. A specific task for forensic audit, as opposed to just reviewing. The year in its entirety, um… I mean, have you thought of that, or what would be targeted? I haven't actually given. That question, uh… A ton of thought. Um… My immediate reaction is that.
We really don't know what they're gonna come up with. I mean, you know, we can't even just look at 2023 as an indication of what they're going to uncover. We just don't know, and so… by pursuing specific tasks or limiting. The scope of what the auditors will look at. Potentially limits. Uh… what we find, and may… Um, end up with… uh… missing out on…
You know, uncovering. Situations and… and. That… that result in… in major… uh, financial benefit to the town, and… Modification of our business practices and policies. Okay. So, two things. Um, which I'll consider. Because I did vote for it last time. My concerns are this. One. Going into it without… a targeted focus.
Because I don't want to get in a situation where we go through, say it's $100,000. And now they need more money and time. And then we're just, like, I feel like we're just adding on. You know, we're in that situation now with the current lawsuit. Uh, from the mayor, and… and that bill has grown. To an amount that is way too exorbitant. So, I don't want to get in that situation again, so it would have to be something very structured and targeted for me to give support to. Number one, uh. My other frustration last time was it took a while, because, again, these tasks.
Also have to be administration-driven. Where they're gonna have to put out the bid. Which they… the council could ask to see, and the committee. Um, the… and the gentleman on the dais now, we're not here, the… in their roles. Previously, so I'm sure they'll… they'll be more… Um, forthcoming with, you know, getting the information out there, but again, it's the administration that has to drive this. So, last time, I felt like we had a roadblock there, because the bids didn't get out.
When they needed to get out. And then election happened, and Councilman Rutherford didn't come back, and then everything stopped. So. Again, I appreciate your efforts, but I want to make sure it will be targeted. I know our job tonight is to put money into the budget. And the reality, if this does get started, how much would you need for 2025? Because then it would continue into 2026. So there's a… At this point in time, does the committee have a recommendation. For what would be needed for 2025, because obviously it's September.
By the time this gets up and running, and the reality of it. Is that we had a conversation about the planner last time. We're probably looking to, like, November, December, before anything even remotely gets started. So, if you have that recommendation, I'd like to know that… what that is tonight. Um. I don't know. Um… The, uh… I'm trying to remember even what our report says in terms of what the recommended years were that we were recommending to be looked at.
Yeah, me too. I didn't have time to back… 2021, 2022, and 2020. 2023, okay. So… So, really, our focus is historical. Um, and in that sense, I mean, you know, if we… I think the first initiative is to pursue. The historical look at certain years. Um, and I think there are tied to the prior CFOs. Tenure here. Um, going forward. That's probably a whole different… uh… decision to make.
Um, and probably whatever is found in the. Historical review of prior years. Would dictate whether or not it makes sense to even consider doing. Further audits. I know my little speech. Refers to doing regular audits, and that's probably what you're referring to. Um… No, no, no, no. My apologies. No, it wasn't, because we do do regular audits, and in 2023, we actually changed the auditor.
And then we saw a different kind of audit report. So, and I was… I had supported that also. Right. So, the forensic audit, to my understanding, is something very targeted, something very specific, like whether you… you mentioned sick time, are you looking into sick time? You know, what are the parameters of what you want to target? So in order for me to support it, I need a little bit more information. And I need also a commitment that administration is going to put.
You know, a bid for it and whatnot, because if they don't move forward with it. Then we're all giving… putting money in a budget. That's gonna sit there and be transferred to another line item, and not used. I share your concern about… the issue of, uh, the administration doing. You know, carrying out the… the task of pursuing this. If the decision of the Council is to go forward. Um, I don't know that we can get around that.
This administration… has historically been reluctant to provide information. I mean. That is also going to be. Say, you know, let's jump to… They put out the… the proposals, um… They actually engage an auditor. Uh, but if the information that the auditors request. Isn't properly responded to. Um, you know, that's a real possibility. That we can't control, the administration controls that. All we can do is demand and expect that the administration.
Will cooperate in conducting the audit so that the auditors have the information that's needed. Uh, as focused as it… as it's determined. So that we have a result that. That is meaningful. Um… So I share your concern with that. And, you know, that comes from, I mean… I have been asking for rock spring numbers since we bought the property.
Yeah. And our prior CFO. Quite simply, did not provide me with anything, didn't even acknowledge. The request, and I made them multiple times. I started out politely. And obviously, over time. My request became more contentious. Um… That's the frust… so I share your frustration. But you, the council. We can't control this administration, but that doesn't necessarily mean. That it should dictate whether we do an audit or not.
And just to clarify, I don't, and I don't want Mr. Titiniak to think that, I don't… I don't think you're gonna give any issue, like, I know you'll be most helpful. With this whole process, if that's the direction. The Council, but also has to get approved by the Mayor's office. So, and I, you know, and in fairness to the mayor, she may be fine with it. But we just have to make sure, and even Mr. Smeralda could tell you, couldn't answer for the mayor right now. Sure. So I just want to be… I'm just being realistic, I'm not taking sides on this, I'm just… I'm always a realistic person.
And those are, you know, the realities in order to get this done the way you're envisioning to get it done. So, for tonight's purposes, um, you know, I'm willing to hear. Any recommend… any recommendation, if anybody wants to put a little bit of funding towards this? I… from what I'm hearing tonight, um… I… I don't think we need to put the whole thing in, because I don't realistically, it's just not going to get started to the end of the year. That's what happens.
And, uh, thank you, Council President. That was all my questioning for this evening. Anybody else? Yes. Um, I would… I would like to ask Mr. Detinyak if the Council authorizes whatever amount we authorize. Is there some way that you can safeguard that money so that it does not move into another line item? Great. So, um, I was actually going to address that, because I know that was one of your questions as well. Um, so the audit… Uh, appropriation is a separate appropriation, so if you.
If you put money in the audit line item. The only way it can be moved to a different line item is via a resolution, transfer resolution. So I would bring you a transfer resolution, and you would have to actually vote to move it from one line to another. So, it would… it would sit in that… audit line item until it was utilized for the purposes that you intended. Forensic audit. Obviously, the independent audit.
Um. So… so it, you know, it couldn't be used for… you know, I'll pick a… FireOT, or something like that. Unless, you know, again, we did a resolution, and we transferred it, but again, if it's resolution, you have to vote on it, so… Yes, it would stay in that line item. Now. Could it be unutilized and just roll to the next year, and then roll into fund balance? Sure, because you'd have to actually…
Utilize. A point. A forensic auditor. Um… Council President, can I address some of the other. For questions about, or… Could you hold onto that? Yes, the floor, she may be adding to… I just, I just have another question. In your experience, have you ever worked with a municipality that has done a forensic audit? That's just a yes or no question. No, I have never done a friends or one. Are you familiar with the whole process of a forensic audit? I am, yeah. Okay.
And… From your… from your, um, experience. Is a municipal audit done one year, you get the information, then the second year, then the third year, or do they. Or if you're looking at multiple years, would the. Would the auditor be requesting all of that information at once? What is the process by which. If I'm going to, um, address. Councilmember Casolino's concern that maybe only one year would get done. Is it done all.
All together, or is it done year by year? So, the independent audits are done. One year at a time. That's not to say, though, that the auditor is not going to look into the current year, because they do. Um, because obviously they're going to provide an opinion at a certain date, and that date is going to be in… In the subsequent fiscal year that they perform the audit on, so they may look at things that happen in. Sorry. In the current year. Um.
Forensic audit is what you requested to be. I mean, you're gonna… We, as a township, would set the scope. Um, so, you know, the CBAB is referencing Clifton, uh, you know, Clifton did a multi-year. Forensic audit. Um, so that can be done. Yeah, this is not… this is not an audit. In order that's… in the prescribed, um, accounting principles of the Division of Local Government Services. That's our independent audit.
Our big, thick audit. Right. You know, they're going to be utilizing those principles, but this is more of, like, the GASB… Forensic audit. Principal, or, uh, you know, the way you would conduct a forensic audit from GASB. So, it's different. Like, you're not gonna get… The same schedules, but they're going to be looking at. And again, you can tailor it to what you want to look at. You know, they could be looking at. Sort of internal controls. They could be looking at specific grants, you know, was this one grant spent correctly? Were all of the grants spent correctly?
Um, and I think… the big numbers that came out of… When this was being discussed in 2024. Was because the desire was to… At first, was to review every single transaction. And I think when we came up with, you know, we do 6,000 POs a year. That's why that number was so great. Um, again, referencing the Clifton Forensic Audit, which I have not read the whole thing, and I definitely will.
You know, they did sampling on purchasing. So they probably said, well, what's a significant item for Clifton? Maybe that's $25,000. Maybe they looked at every PO over $25,000. Um, so… I think… if I recall correctly. We came up with, like, an ISI amount, and I can't remember what that number was. Um, that would shrink down the number of transactions reviewed. But again. It's… we sort of can tailor it to what we want it to be.
You know, did you… but originally it was… we wanted to look at everything, and that's why it was such a big, big number. So another major concern, obviously, is. If the QPA goes out, when it goes out. What the timeline is. And this is a question for the administration. If this board votes to add in money, that would be a 4-0 vote, so that that would… That would be a very strong mandate. Would we get the cooperation from the… Administration, and I know you might say, well, that's up to the mayor, but I'm asking you as.
As the person who is really the next in line under the mayor, whether or not you would support allowing the council, along with the CBAB board. To take a look at the RFQ before it goes out, so that we can. Tailor it so that it's not just. You know, a million dollar response, that we can be a little bit more focused in terms of what we're requesting. So, the first part is correct. The mayor sets the order, and the mayor says that we do it, you know.
Um, happily, uh, get involved with it. I would actually personally defer to Mr. Dutiniak to set it forward, because that's his expertise, and. And, um, and then at that time, I don't think there would be an issue with sharing what. The proposal is. There may be some things that. Maybe requested that aren't legally allowed to do, or whatever the policy is, and I would trust Mr. Diteniak to. To guide us on that, but we… I don't think there would be an issue with sharing any.
Anything of that nature. But again, that all also falls under. You know, the mayor's orders. Thank you. What I'm requesting is, can you hear. Can you… can you help us. Be involved in the process before it goes out, so that there is. No miscommunication about what the request is. I would say, and again, deferring to Mr. Duteniac, but if you sent it to us when we create. We're going to create the document. Whatever it may be, whether it's this particular one or any other bid.
Um, and if there's an interest, we could share with it, and we can ask you for your input, and we can take that into consideration. And again, it would have to be based on. On, um, what the actual, um. Askless. I, you know, I can't… this is a hypothetical, and I don't… Again, I… I would refer to his expertise. There may be some things that we're asking for. They simply just can't. I don't know what the ask is, so… but… But the short answer is. We would like to cooperate as best we can to ensure that, um. That we can move forward with this, because it's easier to… to do those kind of things together than it is to try and fight, and we'll be back here again next year.
Talking about maybe adding money to a forensic audit, so… Thank you. I… I see the floor. Anybody else have questions? Do you want me to respond, or…? Go ahead. Do you want me to respond to Councilman Rudin? Yeah, responding at all. If he was deferring to me, I don't know if he wanted me to speak, okay. No, I'm just saying the part was, you know, every piece of the statement. Yeah, it was. I'd like to add to that? That's fine. Yeah, sorry. We are part of the team together, so… Here's what I'm thinking. I don't know when Mr. Debovee has to leave.
So I would like to get the input, the questions asked. You already know what you're going to say, and uh… so I'm… that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to frustrate you. It's just… And I think Councilwoman… I just wanted to address, um, maybe going forward now, um. Because the CBAB… the latest update to the CMAB report. Um, also expands on and touches on things that I had didn't raise. Maybe now might be the appropriate time to pass it on to… My colleague on the board. Well, I have some, uh, a question or two for you. Sure. But I thought… and then you can… I don't know when you have to leave, but 4, but…
Okay, I make the time. Okay, thank you. It shouldn't be too long. Go ahead. Yeah, my questions were similar to Councilwoman Rudin's. It was about putting out the RFQ. And, um, if we do go with a broad scope, which I tend to think we need to do because, you know, we don't want to… miss any opportunities. If we put it out more broadly, and we see that we don't see any fruit to, you know, their work. Can we change the scope and tailor it? More specifically, you know, in 6 months.
How tight do we have to stay to the scope of work in the RFQ is really the question. So, I mean, if we… If we hire someone and they're coming back to us and saying, hey, we've done… we put in 100 hours, and we're not really finding anything. You know, we're gonna have to pay them, and then… then sure, I mean, you can go ahead and change the scope. We may need to… Do a new RFQ. Uh, that would be a question for the QPA. But I think it's… it's better to sort of figure out where we want to be, and.
Again, to back up Mr. Smeraldo, you know, we don't want to put something together you're not happy with, because that solves nothing, and we're back in the same place, so… Um, but I think… I think I honestly look at the Clifton report and see the scope, and… You know, you can look at what. They came up with the audit firm, I don't want to mention their name, but the audit firm that they came up with. You know, if that's something that is interesting to you, then maybe we could utilize the same sort of scope.
Um, but I'm guessing, too, if we did hire a forensic auditor. You know, they found something. They're gonna come back and say, hey, maybe we need to drill down here. Like, you know, we might just be touching the surface, and… And then, you know, you can expand it based on… on what they find, so… Thank you. You're welcome. Any other questions for Mr. Devovie? Or, I guess, for Mr. Tinyak, basically? No, I just… Sure. I just… I just really want to… I want to thank this board, because.
Um, the Council had requested more information to justify why this would be needed, and I think you… You've provided this to… I think, well, totally, to my satisfaction, but… I think to… to the best of… to the best of your ability, beyond everything else that we could do in terms of finding out and being transparent, I think the most important thing that we can do as a council is to rebuild public trust. And that is what you are offering us an opportunity to do.
I really appreciate… I appreciate all the work that you… you all did. And, you know, thank you. Yeah, I just want to reiterate that, too. The work you've done is incredible, the time and the energy you've put into it. And I think that the public will see how important it is for citizens to be engaged in their municipal government. Thank you. So, if there's no other questions, I would just like to just clarify a thing or two of what Mr. Debovy had said at the beginning of his comments.
And he started out by talking about. A lot of… and I wasn't clear whether he was saying. These instances of his concerns had actually happened here. Whether he was saying they potentially could have happened, and we were talking about losing track of funds, accountability. Misappropriated funds. Uh, and the appropriate systems to handle, uh, may not be… may not be competent. Um, and while he has seen some improvements with the updated systems and new CFO, and just stop me whenever you don't… you hear what I.
This is what I was typing, and if I… if I mistyped it, and if I… mischaracterize your comments, but I'm principally just trying to find out whether you're saying that this has happened here, or that this potentially could happen here. Big difference, so… Um… what I was referencing was, um… Uh, in terms of historical. Uh… what was, you know, in terms of. Funds not being tracked properly was identified in the 2023 audit.
That's directly from that document. Um, some of the other examples that you're pointing out. Um, were merely me. Making suppositions, and that's how I thought I presented it. Um, it's not… I'm not saying that that's… that there's misappropriations being taken place. I'm not saying that our systems are, you know, but… we've had a lot of discussion. Amongst these… in these budget advisory, uh. Workshops about…
You know, our systems, um, that they weren't able to… properly do what they needed to do, and Mr. Diteniak has been. Great, and… in getting our systems updated, replaced with more, you know, better, more comprehensive. Program. So, um… I'm not making accusations in any way. Um, but the audit report did identify these specific things that have occurred.
And, um… it's only, you know, we can only… We don't know what the cause of these things was, um… Then that… that might come out in a further audit. Okay. Uh, so now, Mr. Dutiniak, now that you know what you want to say, I think everybody's finished asking Mr. Devovey so he can go if he wants to. Certainly, you're welcome to stay. But you had had some comments, maybe you want to just make it an answer to Mr? Yeah, no, I'll be here. Before he leaves in case he needs to clarify. Very, very quick, just… I know there was a comment about.
You know, cooperating with a forensic audit, I mean. We 110% will cooperate with the forensic audit. Because if… if we don't, the forensic auditor will put that as the first recommendation, give her to the guy who didn't cooperate. Um, so, you know… you know, maybe I've changed my stance a little bit on this, um… I understand, and I want the public to be, um… assured that we're doing the right thing.
I went to the council to be assured of that, so if that's… the direction that we want to go. Um, you know, I welcome it. I also welcome… not… you know, I don't think… I don't know if we'll find, like, a smoking gun, per se, but even if it's just to… Revamped some of our policies and procedures and internal controls. I welcome that as well. Um, and sort of going through the Clifton forensic report, there is a lot of that, and… And that's great. I mean, I… I welcome that. However, we can improve. Again.
Whether we find, you know, instances of misappropriation or fraud. I hope we don't, but… I know that we're gonna find improvements to our policies and procedures, so I welcome that, and I think. The public and the Council and CBAB welcomes that as well. Let me ask you this question. What do you think we should budget for it for 2025? Um, you know, again, I think the original… The original scope was…
Was every transaction, and we provided the number of POs, and that's what drove. The estimates through the roof. Um, but I think… And I have to ask the QPA how we do this, and again, I think the CBAB has had some conversations with accounting firms, you know, how do we ask, and then still put out the RFQ? I have to talk to her about that, but… you know, just having conversations to say, like, hey, what would you guys look for? You know, you're the experts, you guys do this all the time.
Um, you know, what would be the areas of concern? Um, because I think they're… the areas of concern are going to be the same in every municipality. So that we're not, you know, looking at. The $11 PO, and having, you know, some staff members spend 15 minutes reviewing that PO. Uh, and there's no value added to us. So, I would defer to them, and their expertise. They do this all the time. And again, I would recommend everyone read this forensic report from Clifton, it's right up on their website.
Um, just going through it, there's a lot of great information, so… I would say… have a more manageable, realistic scope. Um… and with sampling that the audit firms do now, like. Are they gonna find every instance of… of… noncompliance? No, but they do a pretty good job, um, with the sampling that they do. Uh, so again, I would say a limited… more limited scope. And we could use this as an example. I mean, this is just done in 2025, so… Clifton, I believe, is a similar… they might even be bigger budget than us, um…
I'm sure they are. I'm sure they are, yeah, it's just a full city. So, I mean, this could be the benchmark, essentially. Uh… So… So… Oh, you want a number? Yeah, I need a number to make a recommendation. A million dollars. Well, I, I… I don't… you said the number for Clifton was, like, 100-something thousand dollars. 50. 150,000 is what they paid. I mean, maybe that's a good start. Maybe that's a good start. But for 2025, or do you put, like, 15, 2025, and the rest in 2026?
That's the math, because, right, if we don't use it, we lose it, right, at the end of the year? Well, I don't want to get started on this. The person that has the floor, if you want to speak, just raise your hand. I apologize for interrupting you, but… No, I'm sorry. I don't want us to get off on… on these tangents like we do. Just, if you want to speak, raise your hand and be recognized, please. Yep. Perhaps we put half in. Um, do $75,000. $75,000? Yeah. Okay. Um, but I, again, I think… now we need to have the conversation… you know, with… sorry.
With some of the firms, or…? You know, even pick these guys' brain. Again, I don't want to say their name on… Budget hearing, but uh… you know, maybe we can reach out to them. And my last question is, what page in the budget would you insert it? That's a good question.
I'll come back to you. Okay, fair. Thank you, Council President. Thank you. Councilwoman Rudin. I just wanted to hone in on… on what my… Colleague was saying when she… she was saying about the scope. Um, I was wondering if she was referring to the years. Um, were you… were you referring to the years? I'm like, do we… do we put in half of the amount saying. We… the years that CBAM picked out were 3 years. Do we… do we ask for all 3 years at… half that amount.
With the intention to come back with more money the next year, or do we authorize all of the amount? I mean, I would… I would want to authorize the full amount, but I know the Council has been reducing, so I hesitate to say put $150 in there. Um, but at least putting something in there, we can start the process. Um…
Does 100 sound reasonable? To you, because maybe we can get it all done. And that's still… Yeah, or… Yeah, or we, you know, then you can add more at the end of the year, transfer more in, um… from another, you know, that… I'm sorry, that might be… It might be a good idea. Thank you, and just in terms of the page.
That's what I'm looking at. I think it was 32. I'm not sure, that's just my opinion, but you tell me. Thank you. Is there anybody? Yes? Councilwoman? So the reason why I wanted… I just want to make sure we only take what we need, because we went through this whole budget process. And… and you yourself, Councilwoman, there's times, you know, where. You know, we said, okay, well, you're not going to use it this year, we'll put it for next year. So I just want to be fair throughout the whole process that we've done. To only put in for 2025 what will be spent in 25.
And then we can put the rest in the 2026 budget. I just want to be very careful about that. Because I… I… you know, it's all about the buy-in support with the community, and I just want to make sure. Supportive of doing this, but I just want to make sure that we don't take too much for this year. Because we've told a lot of other. Department heads, they couldn't have. Funding, uh, and they would get it next year, so I don't want to… I think we should be consistent with our… our ask and our promises we make.
To, uh, on this budget. Thank you. Mr. Devovie? Um, I just… Would add that, um… reading of the Clifton audit. Um, it's clear that. You know, we're addressing the same issues. Um, that they've are… that, you know. That they, uh, addressed in their audit. We're looking into the same. Or we're concerned about the same things that they. We're able to uncover.
Um, you know, a call to Clifton also could be helpful, and… doing some homework beforehand. In crafting scope, and um… an approach, and could help guide. The cost of this thing, too. Yes, one of the things we should… we should get is the RFQ that produced. That led to that… to that plan. That should… that should be helping us. Question, yeah. Um, did you see any… the length of the time that it took for them to do that audit?
Did it specify anywhere? It might be in there, but… Yeah, because that would be interesting to look. Took them a year. A year. Takes a while, that's what I said. Right, that's why I was thinking, you know, we could be okay with the 75. I just don't want to miss any opportunities. So, at page 52. In the audit document. Accounts and controls. And I will just… I will just point out that. I was on the council for 10 years, and pretty much every audit. Had concerns. But they were relatively minor. I don't want any concern with compliance is a concern.
But, for example, they were not concerns that were elevated to the level of. The state regulators becoming engaged, and no reference to… no referral for potential criminal. Uh, but there was just about every year. That's why I was surprised. To look at the 2022 autumn, which, of course, when I wasn't on the Council. And there basically were no concerns expressed by the audits… auditor, and I… I applaud the Council for getting a new owner who came in and made a real difference in this.
Um. I don't know if this is the appropriate time for me to do this, but I did look at what the. The, uh, Citizens Budget Advisory Board, uh, wrote in the, uh, today. And also, just listen to Mr. Toovey, and I just want to have a comment before we move on. Uh, to put you perhaps a vote. I don't want to go through that if that's not… what we need to do. But I just want to say I applaud the board. Including Mr. Bovee's comments just now. Uh, for building out its request for a forensic audit with additional information and goals.
And the board, in only its first budget, as a reconstituted and empowered body. Continues to demonstrate that it is now. A big asset in helping significantly with the township's budget and financial matters. The board's rationale repeatedly cites transparency and accountability as deliverables from a forensic audit. I have pursued those two goals in addition to fiscal responsibility, since I started in municipal affairs nearly 20 years ago. I'm all for transparency and accountability, and I will also point out what I consider to be a billboard.
Of that accountability, that many of the people responsible for our finances. During the board's target time period are gone, or are on their way out. Already. They have been held accountable. Just not nearly as quickly as they should have been. However, I'm not sure a forensic audit of 3 years that in a few months will be 2 years in the rear mirror. With a function now under the leadership of a demonstrated, highly capable CFO. Justifies the potential expense. Compared to the projected deliverables.
I argued against this expenditure absent a focused business case. Uh, when it was first proposed weeks ago. Uh, for a number of reasons that I believe the board's rationale delivered earlier today to the Council doesn't fully address. The board says, quote, the reasons to pursue a forensic audit include transparency to the taxpayers, identification of potential improprieties. And the proposed corrective action plans, as well as a review of the internal control systems. If the Council decides to engage a forensic auditor. The CVAB recommends that the audit cover the years 2021, 2022, and 2023, end quote.
But my question is, are residents concerned about how funds were spent in 2021, 2022. 2023, or today, and in the future. And it seems to me that the latter period is a better target for our increasingly limited resources. The board argues for a, quote, 3-year forensic audit to enhance transparency, promote responsible governance, and restore public trust, end quote. I would argue that the Council, this council. The CFO and the board are doing just that.
The board does not mention the 2023 audit in its written comments, which found numerous problems without a forensic audit. The board does not mention the new CFO, who's only been here about a year. He has made many. Improvements, uh, improving the function, including developing the corrective action plan to fix the problems found in the 2023 audit. The CFO in the CBAB's target years is long gone. And the new CFO continues to improve the function under his leadership. This CFO has committed to and demonstrated improvement in every facet of the CFO function.
I say that after nearly a decade on council, with the previous CFO, which required me to frequently challenge him. The new CFO has greatly improved our dysfunctional budget process. Including the selection of software that will soon provide a resident-facing interface. Providing substantial and significant financial and operational data. That's transparency that will hold the Council and the CFO. Accountable. The CBAB's rationale for… is lofty, uh, and has important goals.
Quote, Over the years, residents have expressed growing concerns about the township's financial management, including unclear budget allocations. Increasing municipal debt, rising property taxes, and a lack of public access to detailed financial data, end quote. I could add a ton… a dozen more of my own concerns along those lines over the years. But the CBAB rationale has not a single mention. Of a specific problem in the 3 years they target in the forensic audit. The CBEB says results of the forensic audit can, quote, serve as a practical roadmap to strengthen fiscal accountability.
The audit could reveal systemic weaknesses and financial controls, outdated accounting practices. Or patterns of wasteful spending, end quote. I would argue that the new CFO has already demonstrated his expertise in improving many aspects. Of the CFO function. The CBAP states, quote, Lastly, a forensic audit acts as a powerful deterrent against our… against future financial mismanagement or impropriety, end quote. I believe the current council, the CFO, and the CBAB itself are serving in that capacity already. And if we come up with evidence that this is not the case, we can always reconsider.
The… the audit. And please note, I'm not arguing. Uh, with the goals that the CBAB expresses. I'm in total alignment with them. I'm just not sure that this is… This is the way to do it. I was peripherally involved with two forensic audits in the private sector, and one lesson I took from those. Is that the forensic auditors need to have as clear a target of potential areas of concern before they start. It makes for a much more efficient and fruitful process. The CBAB rationale does not appear to have this.
The Council, the CFO, and CBAP have gone through this budget exhaustively, demonstrating the dysfunction of the previous budget process. And the improvements to it in real time. We've had extensive dialogue and transparency among us, and we found many issues that need to be addressed for greater budget efficiency. We've made substantial reductions in expenditures, including some that the CFO. The business administrator or assistant business administrator. And department directors objected significantly against. We have impacted certain services. As the best way forward. Yet, with significant reductions in the proposed municipal property tax.
Council is asked to give some of those hard-won savings back for forensic audit. The lofty goals are admirable, but I don't believe that case has been made that we should do that now. So, I just wanted to make sure we heard that in case anybody was thinking about making a motion. Councilwoman Rudin. Yes, I… I hear what you're saying. Some of those issues that you raised in… in your remarks have already been addressed in this exact meeting, but I think. The clearest argument. For this audit, is that the CFO himself has said.
That he would welcome it. The Clifton Audit. Cost $150,000. And it resulted in. $5 million of savings moving forward. What else do we need to know? And looking at that. If you look at the Clifton audit, it will help us limit the scope of our request. And come up with. Where we are inefficient. And what we can do better. If the CFO himself is requesting this.
I think we owe it to him to get a clean slate to… get the answers to the questions that he himself has. I don't know who raised their hand first. Okay, that's one. Yeah, I believe that once Mr. Dutiniak reaches out to the auditors who did this audit. And has a substantive discussion with them about what… how they approached it, what they look for. I think we will have a good idea of how to tailor it. And I'm confident that, um. We should move forward with it. Councilwoman. So, thank you, Council President. And, you know, I felt the way you had felt.
For quite some time now, and I was on the fence today because of the email that came through and talking. Uh, to actually a few of the other board members. And, you know, in the years meant in 2021, 22, and 23, especially 21. Um, you know, they follow the aftermath of COVID, there was a lot of… Um, just trying to keep the town running, and as much as we wanna… Criticized the former CFO. I am going to… I have to give justice where justice is due.
A lot of people weren't paying their taxes back then, and unable to pay the bills, and… get funding. I thought he did a good… a really good job at the time, because we were… town was a mess. Town was a mess, you know, a lot of people were home, as I always say, in their pajamas, and… And… and there was people out there and trying to get the work done and keep the town running, and uh… he was one of them. However, um… I think there are some best practices, especially with the grants.
Council President, I… I think… We could definitely have better best practices. And, uh, and that's why I'm changing my mind on this. However, I don't want it to become a rabbit hole. And that's why I wanted to have a very detailed. And my biggest… And we need to get this over with. The public. The people out there that are, you know, to build trust up again, I think… and I even feel better with Mr. Ditiniak's comments this evening.
Um, I think you should change your mind. I… and again, that's why I said with Councilwoman. And she's all gung-ho, she wants to get it done tomorrow, but the reality of it, and I think we have to practice. Our practices with, you know. Go with the 75. For this year, because the reality is, they're not going to spend all that money this year, and that's not fair, I said to the other departments that had to take a hit. And have to wait till next year. Um, so I think some… a lot of good's gonna come out of it. I think it'll put a lot of…
Um, a lot of… you know, tidbits out there that are out there about what practices were. And we can move forward. I think we have to… you know, move forward on everything, you know, on everything we do, we have to… We worked really hard on this budget. I really appreciate administration's hard work on it. And, um, this will help the CFO to move forward, and the administration, so I hope you change your mind, because. Especially if we put money back in, we need your vote. So… But I think it's… I think good could come out of this.
Thank you. Mr. Devovie. Um, Council President, I appreciate your comments. But I do want to address a couple things you said. Um, specifically the… not making the business case. I think, um… Focusing on the current. Period, time period. Um… I don't almost suggest that that's… Not a focus, because of. Our change of personnel here.
Um, however. The comments that I've made concerning. Um, the merits of doing… the audit, refer to other reports and audits that have been done. Namely, the Comptroller's Report, which identified. Uh, the paid leave, um, sick accrual of sick leave. If… if we do find that a prior employee who, while they may be long gone physically.
This township is making payments to these people for retirement. Benefits. Um, if… if there were improper approach, uh. Uh… things being done. Those… those payments are at risk. And… and could be, at a minimum, stopped. And maybe even clawed back. So, I think… you know, not gonna guarantee that we're gonna come up with. Something that points to real dollars or actual dollars, or quantifying those dollars.
But… that could actually… if there's something found in those 3 years. We may have to go back further. To quantify the amount of the… of what this town might be shortchanged. And… and go after that. And… These… these are real… we know what is being paid out. To these former employees. And it's big money. And I think we owe it to the taxpayers. To review this. I mean, we… I mean, to hear a comptroller's report say that our…
Our own policies are not in compliance. With state law. And two different laws that were put in place. It begs the question, alright. What are the current numbers. Used to calculate those payouts. And are they compliant or not? And that has to be looked at. So… Um, I think the case… Has been very well made. I think the Clifton audit results. Just rubber stamp that. That result, and um…
I think going forward, for this meeting. Um, I'm gonna pass this on now to my colleague, uh, on the. Systems Budget Advisory Board. Um, because she can also… Address more… better than I, the… the actual content of what we… uh, recommended in the CBAB report. So I, again, thank you for your time, and um… consideration. Thank you, Mr. Bovee.
Did I see a hand up over here? No, welcome. No hands? Oh. No more hands up. Mr. Virginiac, do you… do you have, uh… I realize you're not a councilperson, but do you have any… Any, uh, opinion. Before we go there, before we go to the opinion, I just want to say, uh. Comptroller's report that Mr. Bovee referred to. Came up when I was sort of not on the council, so I wasn't paying particular attention, but. My memory is that the controller… the state controller said that.
West Oranges. Policies were not compliant with. State policies and regulation and law. But it seems to me. That in order for them to determine, perhaps they looked at. What our policies were and what our approach was. Without looking at the numbers. But isn't that… wouldn't that be something. Mr. Genek, that you could do, if that was… if that was an issue, we could… Apply the right regimen. And… and, uh, see if that was something that we did inappropriately.
So, from what I recall, and the State Controller's Office, they like to, like, hurl bombs. Um, and, you know, they sort of, like, eviscerate you in the, in the. Press and the public, and then when you come back with. The answer… they don't say anything else. They don't, like, publicly forgive you. Um, what I looked at, I remember it was something to do with. Comptroller said that we lacked. The appropriate language. Referring to the 2007-2010 sick leave reform. But I think in our contracts, it did reference that language, so…
Um, that's what I recall from that, but I'll look back. I'll look back at the comptroller's report. Um… So, that's my comment on the comptroller's report, yeah. Did you want me to say anything else about the audit, or…? Oh, yeah, if you want to, but I just wanted to make the point. You know, we're talking about a lot of theoretical benefits and a lot of. Theoretical problems that we're looking to. To find, but it seems like, to me, with this.
There isn't any theoretical about it. If we weren't in line with the policy, we could go back and check the numbers. As related to what our process. Sure, and I don't know, because I wasn't here. Um, I don't know if the comptroller's office actually came in and really… did an investigation, or we were just one of many. Communities that they… probably pulled contracts off of PERC, and… Um, you know, dinged. So, I don't know if anybody…
Those… because they have gone into communities where they really did an investigation, and they put a specific report together for that. Municipality. Um… So… So then go on to… I think we've drained that issue, but go on to whether you had any additional thoughts. About the… the advisability of a forensic audit. Yeah, I, again, um… You know, if the Council wants to embark on something like this, we are… I'm fully supportive, and I think the administration is supportive of.
Um. You know, I don't know if we're gonna find the… Like I said, the smoking gun, but I think it's going to help us. Improve our internal controls and our policies and… and… You know, really tighten things up. Um, not just in the finance office, it's gonna… Be across all departments, and, you know, it's gonna even impact. The governing body, and maybe the decisions that you make in the future. You know, regarding utilization of fund balance, or debt, or whatever.
Um, Zello, if it's something that's gonna help the township improve and make us better. Uh, I'm… I'm all for that. I really just want… I want West Orange to be the best. And not just Essex County, but in the state, and everything that we do. From running a jitney to… you know, having a fun balance policy. Like, I want… I just want it to be the best, and I want the public to be. To trust it, in that we're doing… Um, what's best for them?
Again, whether it's, uh, running a rec program, or. Doing a bank wreck. So… Awesome. So I'm… I'm the same way. I suspect everybody in this room is the same way. I always try to take a look at. What are the potential… benefits and compare it to what the potential cost is. So we have… everybody has to make their risk assessment as to whether they think that we're going to. Make back whatever money we put out there, either in the short term or the long term. Sure.
Uh, I… Yeah, I don't… I don't know if there is going to be a dollar value. Attached to a report that we get. Like, I cannot predict that. I don't know if anybody's gonna say, well, you missed out on $5 million, and now you're gonna make $5 million more. If you institute these things. I don't know. I know that we're going to get recommendations. Uh, to improve processes, I know that, and I know we're gonna get dinged on certain things.
They're not going to take $100,000 or $150,000 from us and just go, you guys are good. They're never gonna get another forensic audit again. So I know that they're gonna find something. And I mean, I know that things are out there. Um, nothing. Nefarious or… you know, but I know that there's policies that need to change, and we need to do things better. Um, but I'm just one person, and, you know, I'm… I'm trying to plug along and… and get the new systems up and running, and…
Um… So, that's my point on that. Okay. Yeah. I just want to say, aside from developing better and more efficient. Policies and procedures that will change, uh… save the taxpayers dollars down the road. There's the element of trust. The public doesn't trust us anymore. And if it does nothing more than those two things and restore the public trust. I think it'd be worth it, because that's the only way we're going to be able to move forward.
In this township. Yes, Councilmember. My last point, you know. Some people don't trust us. There's a lot of people that do trust us, but… but the main issue here is… Mr. Titaniak is one person. He's been trying to, you know, like, he just said it so, so eloquently. He's trying to get these systems up. And there's a lot more best practices out there that he just doesn't have time to get to, so I think this helps him expedite.
All that, and I'm good, so I hope to change your mind, Council President, because. I… I… I wasn't sold earlier today, but… It's… the case has been getting stronger for me. And, uh, I… I think we should do it. Thank you. Well, I think if, uh, if you push any harder, you're gonna break my right arm, so please don't… it's already touching my neck. I think that, you know, we have department heads that come before us, and oftentimes we don't really understand what.
The need is, but they tell us they need it. We have… we have a department head here who is actually saying to us. He needs it. And I think he needs it to guide in very specific things that are coming forward. To have… to have guidance in, and this will set the record very clear for him. As to what… what should be done. So I… in… in this case. You know, we've had to take a leap of faith in many areas with departments… department heads who say. You know, I need this extra… cushion, and we give it to them. This is…
This is what he's asking for, and I think we need to be respectful of that. Councilwoman. Yeah, I've also sat here, this is, I think, even more important, I've sat here for… through budgets as a councilwoman now, and for a decade out there. And we have heard. Over and over. Um, department heads come and really not know what they needed, not know what they needed for the department, and they've said things like. This is the way we've always done it. And I think that is the root of the problem.
That people have been doing. Poor processes for years. But they just didn't have any guidance to another or better, more efficient way of doing it. And I'm sure you're probably seeing some of that as you get to know all of us. So, I think that's a good reason, too, and it will really help, um, Mr. Detinyak do his job. Anyone else? No, just call the… hold a vote, or make a motion. Well, just before you do that, I just want to say that.
I, uh, believe every word that I said based upon my experience and my expertise. And, uh… I also recognize that we're in a situation with the budget that it takes all four of our votes. Now, I was totally comfortable. Well, I won't say total comfortable, but obviously I was comfortable with. Serving on the council for 10 years, where I quickly became known as 421 Joe, because I was constantly being outvoted on stuff. And I have to tell you, I don't think. I don't regret any of those votes, 4-1 votes, because.
The reason I'm back here is that chickens have come home to roost on a lot of the. The items that I voted against. And I'm not going to go into detail. So… But in this case. If everybody in this room thinks that this is the way we should go, I guess. I will, uh, join, and… take the $150,000 risk. Uh, with you to see, uh. To see what we can find. I'm certainly not comfortable with it, I'm not convinced, but I don't want to stand in the way.
Of, uh, of something that might… potentially very much benefit the township, so… Unless anybody has anything else, we can just… somebody needs to introduce… I'm not introduced, but motion to, uh… To the issue. 75? I… I just… I wanted to go back to Mr. Dutiniak, because Mr. Dutiniak had said 100. That's what he had said. I mean, if you want to start with… like, I don't know what it's going to cost, but if you want to start with 75, and we just say, this is what we have.
For this year… To start. That's what we have, um… And we make it work. And then we can refund… Then we can expand… We can expand it. …into next year and budget in 2020. And it is going to take them more than 3 months to do this whole job. This is gonna take a long time, yeah. This is gonna take a long time. I'm comfortable with that. I'd like to make a motion to add $75,000. Into… into the budget, onto page 52 in Accounts and Control. I'll second it.
Any further discussion? Nope. Madam Clerk. Councilwoman Casolino? Yes. Councilwoman Rudin? Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa? Yes. Council President Grokoviak? Yes. The motion carries. Thank you. What's next, Mr. Dutiniac? Please? I should've said… Okay, so just looking at our agenda, we are going to start on page 31.
Uh, this is the… Sorry. Um, business administrator salaries and wages. So, I guess I'll go on… I'll pick a shot at this. So there has been some… complex and complicated changes. In our business administrator and assistant business administrator positions. This year, and…
Given the mayor's last. Request or, I guess, directive is a better way of saying it, that. Uh, she wanted the… recently returned Assistant Business Administrator. To essentially get a raise. Uh, to the top level. Um, he is of the salary ordinance line for Assistant Business Administrator. And I think Mr. Detinyak will… clarify that in a minute.
And so, the council. Requested and obtained legal advice about what our role is and is not. In these matters. And without going into too much detail. We found out we have very little direct. Uh, influence over… What the mayor wants to pay. Personnel, again, because of our form of government. So, we've… And please, the rest of you who were in the executive session.
You know, can certainly clarify for me, but I do want to caution you just about saying anything that came directly out of the. Out of the executive session, but… Uh, so… I asked… Mr. Dutiniak to prepare a certain. Treatment of the issue. For the budget purposes for the year. Depending on what the Council's will might be.
So, that's what we were about to get into, but… Councilwoman Castellino. Has something to say. Yeah, so Council President, I think at this time, I appreciate the information that we have received today. I know we're still trying to resolve another matter. And I'm just gonna speak to that, um, gently. And I think right now, uh, I'm not ready to consent on this page. I think, um… I like to… to wait.
On this page right now, we have some time. We're trying to resolve. Like I said, another matter. And I think at this time, uh, we just, um… I'm sorry to not finalize it, but I'd rather. Non-consent right now, and that's all I want to say at this point in time. I know we have to the 30th, if we were to make any other reductions, correct? So I'd rather, right now, just… hold off on consenting.
And… and wait. Adjust a little bit. So if I had to summarize your comments. You love endless budget workshops. And you would like to have at least one more in order to try for the opportunity to settle. I was just trying to be humorous, because I'm pretty crazed about this, but… Yeah. You're saying that you do not want to approve this today. Or consent to it today with the… with… with the absolute necessity… well, not the absolute necessity, but.
For the opportunity that we might be able to address it sometime in the future. Before the… before… Yes, I… I think so, and I think we have to the 30th, we only need to do a budget workshop, we could always address it on the 30th, too. I mean, it could be part of the… just the amendment, so… Yeah, we have to get it done by the 30th. You know, this process, though, you've consented to everything else. As long as it's okay with the council. Well, we could obviously call a quick Zoom meeting. Zoom emergency, and it would take 5 minutes. Yeah, I don't mean to be a pain, but… There's other issues out there that we… and I apologize that…
You know, I wanted to complete everything today, but… Um, we… we… I definitely need till next week. I agree. So, just to be clear. Even after we adopt the budget, whenever we do adopt the budget. We can still amend it. It just takes a resolution. Uh, actually, not a resolution, an ordinance. To amend the budget after it's been adopted. Do I understand that correctly? Is that still cool? So, you know, you would do a resolution… Resolution, okay. And our amendment would really be transferring money in.
Um, once we adopt. It's sort of done. You can't add… new money, unless it's an emergency, or you're doing a Chapter 159, and that's where. That's a grant, it's offsetting appropriation and all that, so… Well, I'll talk to you offline if I need to… if we need to add any money to this, but at the end of the day, I just… I don't want to talk to it now. But again, theoretically speaking. Um, this… could be, uh, an issue, because if.
If our prayers are answered. And there is a change that the Assistant Business Administrator level. And the business administrator level. What you're suggesting is that we don't have money. To pay a higher compensation? Is that what… Is that what you think might be happening? I'm not… I'm not making any comments right now, Captain President. I just wanted to defer this to next week, that's all. Okay, so I think Councilman Scott, I had to… Yeah, I agree completely with Councilwoman Casolino, and I don't feel comfortable signing on it.
Okay. I have a process question for our clerk. Does consent require four? If we were going to consent to a page, do we need 4 votes to consent? Just three. Yeah. Okay. Not a super one. Yeah, no, we're… I know we're going against the clock. Alright, so out of, out of, um, deference to the Councilmember's request, I would. Go along with that. Hold off. So, it sounds like the Council does not have consent on this page, page 31.
At this time. Is that…? That's correct. Do I understand that correctly? Not right now, no. Okay. Okay, so we are going to move to page 42. And this is the Information Technology Salaries and wages. I think that, uh… If you and I recall the same thing, there was.
A decline to. Consent to this page. And… it was not discussed at that budget workshop. And I don't… I have not learned since that time that there's any reason, or there's any issue that is still pending. About consent for this page, so I asked my council member. Colleagues, uh, whether there is anybody who does not want to consent to this page. Yeah, I think we should consent. No, I do not… I do not consent to this page.
I think there are some issues that we have not really talked about. And that require… require some… some answers that we have asked. Or, at least I have asked. And have not gotten any satisfactory response. So I'm not… I'm not prepared to consent on this page. Okay, but without knowing what… what the issues are. I just have to ask, are the issues. Pertinent, directly pertinent. To the consent of this page. I can understand that there… that you have concerns.
About personnel. But in terms of… Approving the budget. Knowing what we know about what we can say and do. And what we can't, at this point. Are you saying that you believe. That there are reasons that we. Could potentially have addressed. On this page in order for you to consider consent. Yes. Okay. But I'm also understanding that you can get consent without me.
Yes, that was my next breath. Okay. So, if we only need 3 consents, I think maybe we need… oh, sorry, that's okay. I just want to make a point to my colleagues. I just want to make a point. So, I understand… You didn't get a particular question answered because. It was an appropriate setting at the time. I'll just leave it at that. Um, but from what we heard. In that setting. And again, it was close to action, so I can't have to talk in code here.
I do believe you… you have to be fine with this, and… but again, that's my belief. Well, and I've been working with. Contracts for… for years, school board, and here. And so I recommend that we consent this, and… But I still recommend you have an in-depth conversation so you understand it as well. And you gotta be careful, because you don't want to have a personnel issue.
I… I have requested information, and I was told it was not. Within the purview. Of the Council to have this information. So, I don't know how more I can have the conversation. So that I could feel comfortable with. Allocating this amount of money for the rest of the year. So, Madam Clerk, do we need a, uh… Do we need a roll call vote? Yeah, if… yeah, yes. Okay, so I guess I will move that.
We consider consent for page 42 of the budget. I'll second. You want to call for discussion? Oh, I'm sorry, I apologize. Is there any further discussion? No, because we can't just really disgusting. Matt? Any more imprecise discussion? Yeah, I do have… I do have a question on this page, yes.
There is a $10,000 offset. What does that mean? So. The… there's one individual that's a department head that. Performs some IT duty. Now, this doesn't give him additional money. We just charge $10,000 of his salary to this line item for the IT work. And website work that he does for the… For the municipality. So, it doesn't change his salary, it's just we allocated $10,000 to the IT.
S&w line. Okay. For it. And also, is this… Is this employee covered? I know he's covered… by a union contract. Is this person also eligible for the… Longevity? It was. What is this person still covered by a union contract? I'm a little confused about the longevity issue and the contract issue. Are you talking about the one with the $10,000 offset? Initials MF?
Yeah. Or DA. Da. Da is covered under a union contract. Um, and his longevity… uh, is because of the date that he was hired. It predated when the longevity was… Was, uh, eliminated. Which is, like, year 2000, so these are employees… 1999. Yeah, 1999. Anything else? Any other discussion? Madam Clerk? Uh, Councilwoman Casolino, to consent.
Yes, Councilwoman Rudin? No. Councilwoman Scarpa? Yes. Council President Krokowiak? Yes. Okay, the motion carries. Thank you. Mr. Dugini. That's it. Wait a minute. Wait, we're done? What do you mean? When you say, that's it… That's all the budget pages. You mean you're resigning effective immediately? I don't need to resign effectively? I didn't win Powerball, so I can't. I can't resign.
I'm going September 21st. I thought we had scheduled for Monday? As a backup, is that still… I did not schedule anything for Monday, so… We could schedule Zoom. We just… we would just need a quick Zoom. Yeah. Okay. Is there such a thing? A quick Zoom? Yeah. I look forward to my husband. We don't have consumers. Okay, so… What… what time on Monday? Because I'll have to do the 48-hour notice. No, we're not going to be running Monday. Oh, okay. I'm just… I'm just…
All right. Well, remember, I need 48-hour notice, so… Yes. And also, the RFP for the forensic audit on the Clifton is on the Clifton website. Yes, but can you pull it up? Because I tried and I couldn't get the whole. Maybe routed to us? I'll email it. I couldn't sign in, you can sign in as a clerk. Are you talking about the report itself, or are you talking about the RFP? On their website. All right. I'm going to send a doc to everybody. Great, if I have it.
The request, the actual request. The RFP, yeah. Can you include the CBEB as well? The what, I'm sorry? The Citizens Budget Advisory Board. Oh, yeah. Sure. If I can remember everybody. Is there anything else? What about this thing? Oh, wonderful. Yes, I would love to… Yes, I would. Okay. Even though I have a feeling… I'm sorry, no, I want to go to… Mr. Dipenney, can you make that really user-friendly? You said 20 minutes.
In your… Versions. Um… Let me try to… Oh, not gross. I mean, if you want to schedule… to do this next week, and hopefully the other should be resolved. There we go. Yeah, if we're gonna have a meeting next week. Then we need to fill in the space, because we… We seem to have this goal of…
Budget workshop has to last the last 3 years… 3… sorry, not 3 years, 3 hours. So we would need content to fill it, so… It's up to you, Council President. Whatever you'd like to do. I'm open to whatever anybody wants. What do you guys want to do? Do you want to… I don't have a preference. …put forward now, or sometime next week? What do you mean? Well, I have a short week next week. I'm just… I'm trying to… I'm trying… failing to be humorous, because if I… because if I don't laugh, I'm going to cry. Oh. So… So the question is, do you want to move this to next week? We're… if we're going to have another budget workshop.
We, you know, we can set aside an hour next week, because this other thing is going to take very little time. And then we can do the… then we can do the, uh, debt. …iss issue. At the same time, not at 5 o'clock on a Friday. Yes, leftovers, yeah. Mr. Tinyak, the issue has been raised about whether you want to go home. My understanding is you do want to go home. I want to go home. We're happy the next time, if you want to take… It is 5 o'clock on a Friday. I would like to go home with you. Plus, we need to zoom in anyway. Wow.
You're cool. You can… we can do whatever… Yeah, we can do it next meeting. Just because I need it to be zoomed in as well for the people at home. When is the next meeting? What are you talking about? We don't know yet. Okay. Are you going away again? No. No, no, I'm saying zoomed in. Zoomed in on the screen, so that people can see the presentation. It's a municipal finance term, that's why we're not familiar with. Um. All right, what we need to suggest a date?
If we could do Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday next week, Thursday, Friday, I'm out of 5. I have… I have two meetings on Tuesday, so if we could do on Wednesday, I know you have a planning board meeting in person. So, right before would be… make sense, right? Well, then you have to be over. She has to be, yeah. She has… she has to be here for, yeah, it's… 6.30, so maybe we can start… start at 515, just to give a little cushion? Yeah. Okay. Would that work? So if he wants to do it earlier and go home.
Not be here all night, that's okay with me, too. I'm available… I'm not gonna be able to get here before, but 5.15, yeah, 5.15 on Monday. When Wednesday. Wednesday. What's that? That's gonna be in person. 17. 17. Okay. 17th at 515? Yes. Mr. Fagan details. Okay, yeah. I think it would be appropriate at this time to, uh.
To ask that a birthday cake be presented. Be brought to the council chambers. His birthday. Yeah, so we… it can't be a Zoom only. If someone is going to spend their birthday… Is it good about you? A budget workshop. Budget, then we have to do it in person so that that person can get a cake. What flavor? Paid for by… donations by the… admiring other Council colleagues. That it's no impact on the budget, because we're pretty much signed off on it. Then we gotta get them out of here so we can go to dinner. I'm just kidding.
Okay. Thank you, everybody. I'll entertain a motion to do adjourn. Second, hi. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Meeting is adjourned, or the workshop is adjourned. Thank you. Oh my gosh, use a good stuff for me to, um, on your chair. Discussion we're gonna get from your chair. Yeah. I didn't see it. It was on the chair. Okay, uh… Mr. Megan. Mr. Fagan's replacement. We can… we can sign off now.
Please choose