Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good evening, everyone. With the power vested in me as chairperson, I call this regular meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: of the West Orange Zoning Board of Adjustment to order. Today is January 15, 2026, Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It is 8pm, and this meeting is being conducted virtually on the Zoom platform. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Notice of this meeting was given to the Township Clerk, the West Orange Chronicle, the Star Ledger, posted on the Township Bulletin Board, all in accordance with the Senator Byron M. Baer Open Public Meetings Act.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Kindly rise as we pledge allegiance to our flag. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And to the Republic for which it stands. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: One nation, under God, indivisible. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: the liberty. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Justice. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: roll. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Please be seated. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Fisher, please be kind enough to, impart the opening statement. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: The Zoning Board of Adjustment is a quasi-judicial body. It hears evidence from sworn witnesses and makes decisions as would a court of law. The applicants are here because the projects they propose do not meet the requirements of the West Orange Zoning Code, or they have been denied permits by the building inspector. We are our first avenue of appeal.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Board members have a two-fold responsibility. First, to see that the applicant is treated as fairly as possible, since no zoning code can foresee all possible inequities, and second, to protect the welfare of the community as a whole, which is the basic purpose of municipal zoning. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Our procedures are simple. The applicant presents his case, objectors then present their case. Citizens in the audience are then given an opportunity to speak, both for or against an application. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: We expect the conduct of these proceedings to be dignified and orderly, so that all parties may obtain a fair and impartial hearing. As our proceedings are public, so is our decision-making, which usually takes place the same evening.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Because appeals from the decisions of the Board can be made to the courts, and in some cases to the Township Council, solely on the basis of the record before this body, and since the rules of evidence and case law are technical, we would like to advise all persons of their right to legal counsel in these proceedings, and we, the Board, will consider an adjournment to anyone who wishes additional time to obtain counsel. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Fisher. Ms. Chandler, call the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I see him. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Your microphone's off, Mike. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: He's frozen. Alice Weiss, Board Member: He's frozen, so move on.
Alice Weiss, Board Member: We'll come back. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The record will reflect that he's here, he's just frozen. He's coming back. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Dr. Benzi? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Excused absence. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. DeBovey. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Ms. Miller. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Excused absence. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Present. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss. Alice Weiss, Board Member: present… Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I am here as well, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Future meetings of our board are scheduled for…
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: January 22, 2026 as a special meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Regular meetings on February 19th. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And March 19th, 2026, those are regular meetings. All of those meetings are utilizing the Zoom platform. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We had a matter listed for tonight, ZB24-17. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: With Pardo Property at 104 Winding Way. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Which is being adjourned at the request of the applicant. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: That will be to the March 19th, 2026 regular meeting. No further notice will be provided. If you are here tonight with an interest.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: in the Ardo application, 24-17, this is your notice that it will be heard on March 19th. Mr. Endler, please place your appearance on the record. Trevor Endler, Esq: Good evening. Trevor Endler, Esq: Trevor Endler from Javerbound Work Act on behalf of the applicant, Pardo. Trevor Endler, Esq: I appreciate your time, and… Trevor Endler, Esq: We'll look forward to seeing everyone on, March 19th. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, and although it's already contained in the application, are you consenting to the extension of the statutory period to render a decision?
Trevor Endler, Esq: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you so very much for that. Trevor Endler, Esq: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Enough. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I have another announcement, an unfortunate one. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And this is a totally apolitical announcement. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: But, we here in West Orange, Philip Neuer, Chairperson: He's a long-time member of our leadership in our community. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The Honorable Richard James Cody passed away. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: On January 11th. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Dick served for about 50 years in the New Jersey legislature.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: He's a long-time representative of this community. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Then there came a time when he became governor of the state of New Jersey. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We used to jokingly call him the governator. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: again, Dick and I bunked heads as many times as we agreed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: But I always respected the manner in which he carried himself. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And, his passing is noted with sorrow. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Before we move any further, Mr. Barbie has been reappointed. His original appointing authority is no longer a member of the Council.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The present member sitting in that seat has reappointed Mr. Barbie. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Fisch will kindly administer the oath. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Is Mr. Barbie back on? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Sam. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Someone, perhaps should briefly reach out to him, because… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: If he comes back in the middle of a… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: hearing, I would have to swear him in in the middle of the hearing. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It just says, let's try. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Oh, there you go, it looks like. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: There he is. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Barbie. Yep.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Mr. Barbara, I need to swear you in for your latest, term as a, board member. So, if you could, repeat after me. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Raise your right hand and repeat after me. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Aye, state your name. Alice Weiss, Board Member: It looks frozen. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I was just… oh, there he is! Good! Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: You have to unmute, unmute. William Barbee, Board Member: I am unmuted. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Okay, now I can hear you. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: So, raise your right hand and state after me. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States.
William Barbee, Board Member: Hi. William Barbee, Board Member: You solemn… I swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey. William Barbee, Board Member: and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. William Barbee, Board Member: And I will bear truth, faith, and allegiance to this saying. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: and to the governments established in the United States. William Barbee, Board Member: and to the governments established in the United States. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And in this state, county, and township.
William Barbee, Board Member: And in this state, county, and township. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Under the authority of the people. William Barbee, Board Member: Under the authority of the people. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Looks like the moderator is causing an echo. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: If you could mute. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And if you could continue repeating, I will faithfully Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Impartially and justly perform all the duties. William Barbee, Board Member: I will faithfully, impartially, and justly perform all the duties. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: of the Office of Zoning Board Member. William Barbee, Board Member: of the Office of Zoning Board. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: According to my best… according to the best of my ability, so help me, God.
William Barbee, Board Member: According to the best of my ability, so help me, God. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Alright, you are sworn in for another term, Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And thank you, Mr. Fisher and Mr. Barney. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: This is the first meeting of our board for calendar year 2026. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Which is, our reorganization. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: So that the next item on the agenda is to appoint Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The chairperson for this board for calendar year 2026. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I open the floor to nominations. Is there a nomination, or nominations to serve as chairperson?
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I see a hand up from Mrs. Weiss. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mrs. Weiss? Alice Weiss, Board Member: Okay. No, I didn't know if you were waiting to… can you hear me? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Loud and clear. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Okay. Alice Weiss, Board Member: It gives me great pleasure to move to nominate Phil Neuer. Alice Weiss, Board Member: As our chairperson, I think Phil has demonstrated an exceptional ability Alice Weiss, Board Member: To navigate the complexities of running this board, and they are very complex. Alice Weiss, Board Member: His full knowledge of local land use laws.
Alice Weiss, Board Member: And the master plan is what helps guide us. Alice Weiss, Board Member: He comes to each meeting totally prepared. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Which requires many hours of work behind the scenes. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes? Alice Weiss, Board Member: He's occasionally can be a little tough, we know that, but his inner heart It's showing more and more. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Like a fine wine, he is aging well.
Alice Weiss, Board Member: And he is dedicated to the proficiency of the zoning board Alice Weiss, Board Member: And it's service to the township of West Orange. So, I hope you will join me. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Done. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any further nominations? Please, okay, by raising your hand. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Are there any other nomine- Mr. Cohen? Laurence Cohen Board Member: I have a question first about, the ordinance law, the local law of… Laurence Cohen Board Member: of the election, it says something in our ordinance that,
Laurence Cohen Board Member: The, the, ordinance number 2… 3577-12, 25-47-5, ordinance number 2560-19. Laurence Cohen Board Member: The Zoning Board of Adjustment shall elect a chairperson and vice chairperson from its member. Each shall serve in such capacity for one year, dated from January 1st of the calendar year in which elected. Member… this is the important part. Members may not be elected to successive terms as chairperson and vice chairperson.
Laurence Cohen Board Member: And I was told this issue came up last year, and I think this is enough warning. I don't think this makes sense, and I think that we should maybe cut this out of the ordinance, too many ordinances, because it really does take a lot of experience, you know, to get run up to speed and be able to run Laurence Cohen Board Member: The zoning board. And if somebody's just limited to one term. Laurence Cohen Board Member: that means that, they may not gain enough experience, and also, I've looked at other zoning boards, and it's very rare to have this sort of,
Laurence Cohen Board Member: a succession requirement that you have to leave your position. That doesn't mean you could… you could actually run one year, not run the next, because you're not allowed to, and then run again. So you could… every other year, you could be the chairperson of the… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: of the zoning board, but that's what our rules say in West Orange, so I think we have to either follow this rule, or… Laurence Cohen Board Member: Or, or, try, or go to the town council and, change it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: referred. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Mr. Cohen.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Sure. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: So the, the board has… the township, received an opinion from, John Drill, who is, Laurence Cohen Board Member: the… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Some might say he's the leading land use attorney in the state, that that portion of the ordinance was unenforceable because the municipal land use law does not give the municipality the power to determine Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: The term of, and the voting for chairman or vice chairman, etc, on its various boards.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And municipal land use law requires that be left to the boards, themselves. So, I've reviewed that. I believe at this point. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: 4 or 5 attorneys have reviewed it successively over the years. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And have all agreed with that opinion that the ordinance is, unenforceable and of no force and effect upon this board or the planning board. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Well, why if you say this is a nonsense, ordinance, why didn't you try to have it changed and… or cut out? Why would… wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do? I mean, for… we have to follow the rules, the laws. I mean, it should be challenged then.
Laurence Cohen Board Member: it… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: it… I mean, I'm not the township attorney, but, this has been… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: deemed unenforceable. So, and that's been the position for, Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Three years now since the opinion was received. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I mean, is there any case law that you are citing? Because this is an ordinance. You follow the local ordinance. There's no super city municipal law that states otherwise, or state or federal law. I don't understand. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: So, I mean, I didn't write this. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: John Drill did, but I can cite some of the case law that he said, and
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: In New York, SMSA v. Edison Township Council, the court struck out an ordinance, which purported to, require an applicant to give notice of a hearing on an application inconsistent with the MLUL provisions. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: In Planning Board of Leonia v. Borough Council of Leonia, the, court struck down a municipal resolution purporting to direct who should act as engineer for the Planning Board. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Stating that, it would be an impermissible attempt to aggregate the board's appointment power contrary to the MLUL.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: And the MLUL provision at issue in the Leonia case was, NJSA 4055D24. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Which, in addition to governing the election of a chair and vice chair, authorizes the planning board to employ or contract for staff and services that may deem necessary. So, it… it is the… has been the opinion for numerous years Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: that, now that this ordinance is unenforceable, it's been reviewed by the, I believe the township attorney,
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: My predecessor, me, and others, and, Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: it is unenforceable as a matter of law, and I cannot Recommend that the board. Laurence Cohen Board Member: What do you… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Follow an unenforceable ordinance. Laurence Cohen Board Member: your opinion, but what your cases that you cite are kind of off-point. They're very. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: No, I… Laurence Cohen Board Member: for making, like, a specific designation of what somebody should do. This is just a regular, term, term limit. I mean, the New Jersey law says that, regular members have 4 years, and the alternates have 2 years, and so we have, we have limits.
Laurence Cohen Board Member: And, I don't even know… do you know the reason why West Orange even did this? Why did we do this? Do you know? Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: I have never been the municipal attorney. I don't have any idea. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do you have any other nomination to make, Mr. Cohen? Laurence Cohen Board Member: And I just want to ask, do you think the responsible thing to do is, I mean, you could, you could yourself ask the town attorney. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Or you can… anybody can come before the Town Council and try to avoid this provision, say it doesn't make sense, and, you know, I think that's the responsible thing to do. Is that something you would do, you know, in the future?
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: It never hurts to clean up a, you know, ordinance of unenforceable provisions, but, Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: you know, I… I defer to… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: the municipal attorney on what they want to do, because I have no interaction whatsoever with the council. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Mr. Cox? Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Zoning board attorney. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Listen, so this is the… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Mr. Cohn, this issue has come up now most probably over the last 4 years, okay? And we… we as a board have been… we took the opinion of, Brill… Drill, and we've been abiding by that. If… so I would say…
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: let's… let's move on. If you want to make a nomination, make a nomination, and if… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: You want to bring it up later and have the… whatever we decide tonight, we'll go back, but let's move on. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Before we move on… Before we move on, Mr. Fisher. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Are you aware that Mr. Warner stated, live and on this platform, that the opinion that you just cited of Mr. Drill does not have any weight in law? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Boy. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: If he did, I'd disagree with him. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, well, he did say that at this, at a board meeting. Are you aware that the Town Council has twice rejected
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: The opportunity to repeal the law. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: I mean, this is not a. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: It's a yes or no answer. Do you know that the Town Council has twice rejected Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: proposal to repeal the term limit law for the… Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: In my view, it does not matter, and I cannot advise the board to follow an ordinance that is clearly unenforceable. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, so it's only unenforceable if a judge says something. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: And a judge has not said so. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: That's your opinion, Mr. Scott. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No, it's not an opinion, that's a fact. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No judge has said so, but that may change this year.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do you always interrupt? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Especially when you do. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I don't… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Interesting. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Potts should not call cuddles black, Mr. Neuer. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I'd also like to say that I'm very disturbed. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Mr. Fisher, I think you are going to be in court. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: this year. Laurence Cohen Board Member: No, it doesn't have to go to court. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: It's going to go to court. Laurence Cohen Board Member: It just has to go with the council. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: It's going to go to court. Laurence Cohen Board Member: And I lost it or anything. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Council is all… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Gentlemen and gentlemen… Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: to reject repealing this ordinance. This year, it's going. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I mean, it is. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: I have given my advice to the board, and that is the advice that I recommend the board follow, so…
Laurence Cohen Board Member: I mean… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: As the nominee, I happily accept the nomination. I've listened to everything you have both said. I accept the nomination. Are there any further nominations for this position? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, I declare nominations closed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Chandler kindly called the roll. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: A vote of yeses in favor of me serving. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Excuse me. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: person. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: During an election, aren't you, Mr. Neuer, supposed to step aside and turn that over to someone else?
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Not a contested election, and that's the reason I. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Well, before it was contested, you didn't turn it over. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No one had a… you should have turned that over before. As soon as this was done, you should have, asked someone else to serve as chair. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I have no problem, Mr. Schwarzbaum, I appoint. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I'm the vice chair, sir. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes, but you've taken a position. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I've not taken any position about a candidate. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I have not taken any position Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: on any nomination. That is a lie. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: No, that's not a lot. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes, it's a lie, and it came out of your mouth, like many.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Scott? Laurence Cohen Board Member: You can do that. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I know. Laurence Cohen Board Member: You're hurting your own. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: you have… Laurence Cohen Board Member: own precision by doing… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Fire. Laurence Cohen Board Member: you so rudely, Brad. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I'm serious, Brad, it's not our fault. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I think… I really like Phil and Brett. I think they're both great people, but I can't stand how they fight so much, and that's very disturbing. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I agree with you, Mr. Cohen, and that's why I'm trying… Laurence Cohen Board Member: for air. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: over to me. Laurence Cohen Board Member: When we temper something, it's bad, it's bad. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you, Mr. Cohen, I appreciate that. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Schwarzbaum, you are designated as chair for this election. Kindly continue.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: We have one nomination, can we… let's call the vote, and take a… take a vote. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Do we have a second? William Barbee, Board Member: I'll second. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Not good. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Good. Okay. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Huh. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I abstain. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. DeBovey? Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Abstain. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: How many YA… can you… Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: We have 1, 2, 3… 1, 2, 3, 4 yeses, 1 no, two abstains.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Mr. Neuer is, elected as chairperson of the zoning board for the coming year. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you all. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: I hand it back to Mr. Neuer. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I would just like to say I'm going to try to bring this to the Council, this ordinance, and try to have them back it up for reasons, legislative reasons, or just to knock it out, because it's causing legal problems for us, and I think it's not good to be not following our ordinances.
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: And it will be going to court this year. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Once again. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I don't think we have to go to. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We now move on to the election for our vice chairperson. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I open the floor to nominations. Does anybody wish to advance a nomination? William Barbee, Board Member: I will not nominate, or… Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I will advise that as Vice Chair, I am not seeking to be nominated, nor will I serve as Vice Chair again in accordance with the municipal law. William Barbee, Board Member: I nominate Irv Schwartzman for, Vice Chair.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Barbie. Mr. Schwarzbaum has been nominated. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Nominate Mr. Cohen. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Cohen has been nominated. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I'll second the nomination for Mr. Schwartzbaum. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: There is a second for Mr. Cohen. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: See you in second. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Therefore, Mr. Schwarzbaum is the only nominee. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Miss… Chandler kindly called the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I abstain because of the law conflict. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Duvovey? Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: abstain. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott?
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss? Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Let me also state that in the times that Mr. Schwarzman has served as Vice Chair, he has done an admirable job. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: That's an opinion. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Scott, stop interrupting. You don't have the floor, and you haven't been recognized. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Mr. Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm in the chair. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: when I am ready to speak. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And you serving illegally, again, will not stand for the rest of this year.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Parliamentary procedure, you don't… you have not been recognized. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you for the, election of Mr. Schwarzda. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We now turn to Board Secretary. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I will open the floor to nominations. I will unhesitatingly Philip Neuer, Chairperson: nominate Diane Chandler Zimmerman as our Board Secretary. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I'll second. William Barbee, Board Member: I was sick. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Second by Mr. Danamilla. Are there any other nominations? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I will declare nominations closed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And I will make it very clear. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: that Ms. Chandler has done an incredibly superb job as our secretary the past few years. She works diligently, despite the workload that she has from her other responsibilities in the,
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: With the administration. So I am very proud and pleased to nominate her for secretary. Ms. Chandler Conley called the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie? William Barbee, Board Member: Yep. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen? Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Devovey? Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum? Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss? Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes, thank you very much for all your hard work. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: You're welcome. Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You'll indicate that this was by unanimous acclamation. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Next, Zoning Board Attorney. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Does anybody wish to nominate someone to serve as zoning Board Attorney? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I will nominate Steve Warner and Alex Fisher. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: both who have served this board for the past few years to continue their service as zoning Board Attorney. This was… we found them as the result of a vetting process. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: And we were fortunate to be able to get them on board. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And, the resolutions and the other submissions from them have been impeccable. So I nominate Mr. Warner and Mr. Fisher. Is there a second?
Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I'll second. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Second, Mr. Schwarzbaum. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Are there any other nominations? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, I close nominations. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I can't say enough about the quality of the work we receive from our attorneys, and I urge you all to vote yes. Ms. Chandler, kindly call the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. DeBovey. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum? Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Seeing as they're together, I'm going to vote yes, but I really only have confidence in Mr. Fisher.
Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss? Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Next on the agenda is Site Plan Review Advisory Board Representative. This is a fairly thankless job. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And over the past couple of years, Board Member Robin Miller has served in that capacity. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And when she informed me that she would be unable to attend the meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I did receive confirmation from her that she would be willing To serve another term.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And so, therefore, I nominate Robin Miller to serve as our representative to the SPRAB Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Is there a second? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: A second. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Are there any other nominations? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none… Declare nominations closed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: On this one, I'll simply declare a unanimous vote in favor of Ms. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Miller, I don't believe there'll be any other… since there aren't any other nominations. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Next is our consulting engineer. This is not the municipal engineer. Ms. Carabayo remains in place, appointed by the administration, and she provides some very helpful advice and information to us.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: This is for the consulting engineers. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Presently, we have Mr. McNeil. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Although, it's my understanding that Mr. Hess will soon be returning from his surgical adventures. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: So, it's the firm of CME Philip Neuer, Chairperson: that I am nominating to serve as consulting engineer. Is there a second? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Danamill, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Any other nominations? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, I'll close nominations. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: and declare a unanimous ballot for CME. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Thank you, appreciate the opportunity.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, and continue the good work, Ryan. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And for the consultant planner, we also have CME Associates. Currently, it's Christophany. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Again, Chris has written some very fine and focused reports. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: One of his consult… one of his associates, Mr. Elgart, is here tonight, but the nomination is for CME Associates to continue serving as our consulting planner. Is there a second? Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I would also like to say I've been, you know, I had, like, a joke or something that I shouldn't have said, you know, whatever, just a comment that I bet you… I had a phone call with, just a nice little chat, and now I've been reading his reports.
Laurence Cohen Board Member: And they're subtle and very good and comprehensive, and he does… he does really get all the issues in. He's very fit for the court. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Cohen. Are there any other nominations to serve as our consulting planner? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, I'll close nominations, and because there's only one nominee, declare a unanimous ballot for CME Associates. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: This time. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Thank you all, we appreciate the appointment, and then, Mr. Chair, as you had just pointed out, we do have Miles Elgart on the call as well. I forgot to ask that he be made a panelist so we could chat before the meeting, but he actually helps with the reports, and he, as of last year, is now a licensed planner. She'll probably be seeing more of him in the coming year.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thanks for the warning. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Welcome aboard, Miles. Myles Elgart AICP, PP - CME Associates: Thank you, thank you, happy to be here. Just. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I don't have anything else by way of reorganization. Does anybody else have a… nominations? Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Do we have to have a backup to Sprab? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: If the situation presents itself, I usually cover it, but… Okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Fine. No problem. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, mr. Fisher, you have to do a swearing-in. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: so, if the professionals could please raise your right hand.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in his proceeding? So help you, God? Ryan MacNeill, PE: Yes, I do. Myles Elgart AICP, PP - CME Associates: Yes, I do. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Okay, all professionals are now sworn. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Next, the minutes from our December 18, 2025 regular meeting have been circulated. Does anybody have any suggested revisions, corrections. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: to the minutes as prepared by our secretary. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, I will move adoption of the minutes. Is there a second? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Back in. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seconded by Mr. Scott. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: All in favor signify by saying aye. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I…
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Any opposed, say nay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The minutes are adopted by a vote of all to none. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Next item on our agenda… we have one resolution tonight. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I know everybody is anxious to get public service concluded, and Mr. Fisher and his group are working diligently. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: That resolution is in draft, and we'll have to go to the attorneys for the applicant and the interested party, so we hope to put it on the agenda for the January 22nd special meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: For tonight, we have Resolution ZB25-06, for applicant meal, 13 Lowell Avenue.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Does anybody have any comments, questions, suggestions for revision to this resolution which has been circulated? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none… I move adoption of the resolution. Is there a second? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Schwarzbaum. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Chandler, this is a resolution, kindly call the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes? Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. The resolution is adopted. I know, Ms. Chandler, you'll do the necessary with the applicant. I don't see the applicant in the room. Is the applicant in the panel, in the audience?
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: If you are, raise your hand so you can be admitted. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Anybody, Megan? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Well, they didn't have to be here. That's okay. Diana, you'll be in touch with the applicant, please? Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Absolutely. West Orange Township: Sorry, I couldn't get to my audio quick enough. West Orange Township: Yeah, no. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We now turn to applications for tonight's meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The first one is application ZB25-04, Panorama LLC, property at 410 Eagle Rock Avenue, commonly and happily known as the Chit Chat Diner.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Counsel your appearance for the record. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Council's name is Robert Cassion. I'm ready to open if you would like, sir. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please, the floor is yours. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Chairman, members of the board, Council's name is Robert Cassion, the firm is Cassion Pomaco One Bolin Drive in West Orange. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: I represent Panorama LLC, doing business as the Chit Chat Diner. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: My client is the owner of 410 Eagle Rock Air. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: This is an application seeking amended major site plan approval to permit construction of an additional parking area to increase the number of parking spaces for the existing restaurant use.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: We are seeking to amend a previous approved site plan. The original approval for the new diner was granted in 2015. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: In 2017, minor changes to the building were approved. In 2021, a covered deck at the rear of the building was approved, subject to a number of conditions. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The parking requested at that time Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: At the time of the original… at the 2021 app was 117 spaces. The board required… the board granted the approval with 81 spaces plus 4 bank spaces, for a total of 85.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The current application has no changes to the structure, no additions to the building. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: But… or changes to the parking requirement. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The application seeks to reconfigure the parking in order to add parking so that there is a total of 104 spaces. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: 96 physical spaces, 4 bank spaces, and 4 EV spaces. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The property is located in two different zones, the B2 and PURD zones.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The existing restaurant is a pre-existing, non-conforming use. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Again, the applicant is seeking finer major site plan approval, and any variances or waivers the board deems necessary for approval of the application. We are violating the minimum distance of 100 feet for the cliff from the cliff face, and of course, we do not have Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The required number of spaces, but we're reducing that Violation by 15 spaces.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The witnesses you'll hear from are Nick Gatsanas of the applicant entity, and Mike Petrie, the engineer and planner. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: I'd like to call Mr. Katsanos if he is on the screen. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: He is on the screen. Mr. Fisch will kindly administered the oath. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Okay, please raise your right hand. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in its proceedings, so help you, God? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I do. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Alright, you're under oath. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Witness with you, Mr. Gassion. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Kachanas, can you tell us what your occupation is?
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Yes, I'm the general manager of the Chit Chat Diner at both locations, handling day-to-day operations. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: to business addresses. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: for purposes of tonight, it's 410 Eagle Rock Avenue. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: In West Lodge. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you generally describe the business that is operated at 410 Eagle Rock Avenue? Generally, briefly. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: It's… Diner, restaurant, serving breakfast, lunch, and dinner, hours of operation, 7 a.m. to midnight. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: And can you tell the board what it is you're seeking approval for this evening?
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: We're just seeking approval for additional parking spaces. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: That's it. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness. Obviously, the engineer will go into great detail with regard to this application. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Who knows? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: When you first opened up, did you have any parking available to you other than… On the property itself? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: When we first opened. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yes. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: At that time, no. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Did you eventually acquire some… the right to use additional parking spaces in the area? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Yes.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And where was that? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: That was… I think it's been reconfigured now, but we were able to utilize the, parking at the bowling alley. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Or what used to be the bowling alley. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I wasn't able to hear. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Were you… are you still able to use that bargain? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Yes, we have, we have a contract. We are able to utilize 30 parking spaces in that area. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hello, how much longer? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: It's essentially month-to-month. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Month to month. So the additional 15 spaces you're seeking are to enable you to accommodate your customers.
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the board, let's go around the room. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Starting with Mr. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Barbie, questions for the witness? William Barbee, Board Member: No questions. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: From the diagrams, it seems like these parking spaces occupy the cliff off Eagle Rock. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Supposed to be 100 feet. Laurence Cohen Board Member: anything… this is a super steep slope, it's a cliff, and I think the variance is asking for 4.7 feet. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I mean, this is an enormous ask, so I'm wondering if you would just be happy
Laurence Cohen Board Member: to leave the… leave the trees, and also trees, and I don't think they were designated. I think the engineer asked for them to be designated. What trees are you going to cut down? Trees grow very slowly on a cliff like that, and so that's hundreds of years of growth, even though they may look small. Is there any way just to keep it as such, and just Laurence Cohen Board Member: Not ask for these extra parking spaces. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Cohn, that goes beyond his direct testimony, but I'm confident that his engineer will be addressing those issues. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Okay, okay. It's just a big concern, thank you.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hold your question, and you can bring it back in when the engineer testifies. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Cohen, as was pointed out by the Chairman. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: The engineer will go into detail about that and is more ready and capable to answer those questions, but obviously, I thought the ben… or my client thought the benefit of reducing the parking violation justified some of the issues that will be discussed by the engineer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Casillo. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: mr. Schwarzbell. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Can you tell us, based upon your current needs,
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: How many spaces do you need? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Good. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: With respect to… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: The maximum… in other words, you're going… so you're going to go from… you're at 85 spaces plus 30, so you have 115. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Right? And you're going to… you're requesting. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: to go to 134. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: That's not correct, Mr. Schwarzbaum, but if you could wait for the engineer, I think he could give you more detail about the parking. We have 85 based on a previous variance. We're seeking additional parking, which is actually 15 additional physical spaces.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: But we have 4 bank spaces, and 4 spaces because of the EV qualification. But again, I think the engineer… I mean, Mr. Quesados runs the business to some extent, he's a very qualified witness, but I think the engineer might be better able to discuss it with you, if that's okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: I'm asking from a business question. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: how many spaces do you need? Would… would… Niko Katsanos, Applicant: From a… from a business perspective, as many as I can get. I'll take… I'll take the whole cliff if… if it's possible, but I understand there's some… there's some restrictions, but I… the proposal, or what we… the application is for 15 additional spots, which I think would be very beneficial.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: I'm glad to hear that your business is doing very well. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I appreciate it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you. How do I say… pronounce your last name? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Katsanos. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, Mr. Castanos, it's good to see you again. I think I've seen you there many times. My wife and I are frequent, diners, and I understand you definitely need more space there. It's very, very crowded. So you say you may… you have a month-to-month with the bowling alley, directly adjacent? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I think, and I guess the zoning board would be better… have better knowledge of it. I think they subdivided that parking lot, and they've kind of separated it out, now that the, gym has gone in. But the… the side that we use is still… is still, available. I think they… they put a curb, they… they inserted a curb or something, but, we have 30 spaces that we are able to utilize.
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Alright, so I never knew that. I never… I don't think… is there a sign? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Telling people driving in that you can, if you're coming to the chit-chat, you can park over here. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I believe there used to be some signs, additional parking at the bowling alley, but, since it became the gym, I don't… I don't believe the signs are still up. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yeah, I don't think I've seen them. Okay, mind you, I wasn't looking for them, but maybe I just haven't seen them also. Okay, maybe they're not there. And you're concerned that you may lose those spots, because you don't have a contract, is that right?
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Correct, it could be terminated at any point. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Alright, thank you. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Just a clarification, sir. There is an agreement, but again, as was pointed out by Mr. Gonzanos, it's terminated. They can terminate on 30 days notice, but it goes on until such occurs. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Any further questions? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: No further questions, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mrs. Weiss. Alice Weiss, Board Member: None, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: No questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: No questions here, I'm looking forward to other testimony. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Duvovey. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: No questions for me, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Dockney, do you have questions for this witness? Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Just one question, I'm not sure he would be able to… Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: answer it, but I'm a little curious. Even just looking at Google Maps at the property right now, I can see cars circling around looking for parking. The entire parking lot is full on the Google Maps area, and I understand… I say, congratulations to you, I seem to have a very successful business there. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Thank you. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: But, Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: So what currently happens? Obviously, you're seeking more parking because you believe you need it. What currently happens when you are at capacity in your parking lot, and…
Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Where do the cars go? Do people simply say, no parking available, I guess I'm going somewhere else to eat, or… Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Definitely no parking on Eagle Rock Avenue. That tends to happen freely. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: currently happens. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: that tends to happen frequently. The… Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I guess customers who frequent the diner regularly that know, would know to park further down, by the bowling alley area. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: But that does happen a lot where we do lose customers because of the parking situation.
Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Okay, but you don't have people attempting to park on the… Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: On the grass on Eagle Rock Avenue or anything like that? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: No, not anymore. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Okay. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: That's really my only question. I want to know what happens when you are full, and if that is causing any other circulation issues in the area. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Chris. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. McNeil. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No questions for this witness. I'll save them for the engineer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Carballo. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hey, Beth? Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: I don't have any questions, Chairman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you very much. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the public, This is your opportunity to ask questions of the witness.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Based upon the testimony he has presented, it is not the time for you to make statements in favor of or in opposition to the application. That will occur later in the hearing. This is simply to ask questions. Kindly raise your hand so that you can be recognized and admitted to the panel. West Orange Township: Hi, yes, we have, Reedy. I apologize if I'm not saying that name correctly. West Orange Township: State your name and address for the record. Riddhi: Hi, I am Reedy, I am, can you hear me? West Orange Township: Yes.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Okay. If we could just get your last name, please. Riddhi: Shani, J-A-N-I. I am at Villas at Crownview, right under, Chit Chat Diner. Riddhi: 1044 Smith Manor Boulevard. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: What is your question for the witness? Riddhi: My question is, what is the capacity of the restaurant itself where they need so many parking spots? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: The restaurant capacity is around 180 seats. Riddhi: 180. Riddhi: And you're looking for 100 and… How many spots?
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: We currently have 85 with 4 bank spots. We're seeking an additional 15. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Reedy, do you understand that Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Banked spots are not built now, they're reserved for future use, so they're not in use at the present time. Riddhi: Yes, I understand. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please continue. Riddhi: No, that's what I wanted to know as to how big the restaurant is. We are also, frequently there. We often do takeout orders, and I know that you guys have a big takeout order, customer.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do you have any further questions? Riddhi: I'm sorry? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: any further questions? Riddhi: No, that'll be all, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you very much. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Megan, anybody else's hand up, please? West Orange Township: Yes, we have a couple of others. West Orange Township: We have, Kevin Malanga. Please state your name and address for the record. Kevin Malanga: Thank you. Kevin Malanga, Ridge Road. Kevin Malanga: Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations on being reaffointed Chairman. Good evening. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Kevin. Kevin Malanga: board. Kevin Malanga: Mr. Crew? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You know the drill… you know the drill very well. Please, start your questions. Kevin Malanga: Oh, it's Kevin Malanga: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Catsanos, when the parking lot is filled, in your experience, when observing the
Kevin Malanga: seating of your restaurant. What percentage of the seats are occupied? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: When the parking lot is full. Kevin Malanga: Yes, sir. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: It's difficult to gauge because, there's separate factors. During the week, lunch and breakfast time. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: You have multiple vehicles. Well, I'll rephrase that. You have one person per vehicle, because they're either meeting for business lunches, or business breakfast, and things of that nature, so the parking lot may get filled, or, or,
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: almost filled, yet there's not that many people occupying tables, because, say, 4 people are meeting, that's 4 cars, but that's 1 table. On the weekends, it's a little bit different, where there might be a less number of vehicles, but because there's families coming, more people per vehicle, so it's a little hard to gauge, to answer that question for you. Kevin Malanga: I have no other questions, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Malango. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Megan, other hands up. West Orange Township: Yes, we have, paul Washa? West Orange Township: I apologize again if I… I'm not stating that name correctly.
Palwasha: Yeah, you said it right. I'm Palawasha Daftani from 1043 Smith Manor Boulevard. I'm also by the Crownview Villas. Congratulations on your success. I remember when you guys Palwasha: built the Chit Chat Diner, and yeah, I understand it's very busy, I've seen it, I've tried to come myself with my kids and family, and we've done it Palwasha: so many times there, too. I guess, you know, one thing, is there a time limit for families? You know, is there, like, a 30-minute, 1-hour time limit for families when they come over?
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Not sure. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: In other words, in other words, do you have to… do people have to leave at a certain time? Niko Katsanos, Applicant: No, there's no… there's no set time. Palwasha: Wow, okay. And then, you know, I was looking at the map on Google, there's not much space behind your parking lot, and I'm wondering, is there a… Palwasha: you know, geological instability. If you, you know, put extra parking spots more closer to the edge, you know, a risk for rock falls, landslides, you know…
Niko Katsanos, Applicant: I'm not qualified to answer that. That's probably something for the engineer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hold on, Nick. Pawash, we have an engineer testifying on behalf of the applicant shortly. I believe that that question should be addressed to the engineer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: So please stick around. Palwasha: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Questions? Palwasha: Okay, okay. I'm trying to understand those two zoning spots, so where exactly are we trying to add more parking space? Is it, Palwasha: To the left of the restaurant, where those trees are, that little strip of land.
Palwasha: Like, beyond where the, you know, tree, where you guys planted, you know, a couple of trees and bushes? Like, is it in that little strip of land where you wanted to add more parking spots, or… Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: will give details better than Nick, Mr. Cassanos can, if the Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: A witness can just wait a few minutes. Palwasha: Okay. Alright, I think that was my main concern, more for environmental… Palwasha: Concerns, but okay, that's all for now. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Palwasha: Thanks. West Orange Township: Not seeing any other hands. Anybody else wish to ask a question?
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Anybody else? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Going once, going twice… Public questioning is concluded. West Orange Township: Oh, cow. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please take the timer screen down. West Orange Township: Yep. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Gacion, any redirect for your witness? Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: I have no redirect for my witness. I would like to call my next witness, unless the board has something else for this witness. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: This is your case, sir. Go ahead. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Petrie. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Alright. Please raise your right hand. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in this matter, so help you God? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I do. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Alright, you are sworn.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Petrie, can you review your qualifications as both an engineer and planner, please? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. I, I hold my bachelor's degree from NJIT, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: in architecture in 1984. I have been licensed as a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey since 1992. I have been licensed as a planner in the state of New Jersey since 1993. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: or 94, I don't remember. And I have, continued my licenses
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: They are current, and they have been continually current since original licensure. I have. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Have you… have you appeared before this board and been qualified as an engineer and a planner previously? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I have, in fact, on this property as well. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Chairman, I submit that Mr. Peachtree is qualified both as an engineer, and as a planner. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the board, any questions as to qualifications? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none, Mr. Peacher, your license is in good standing, sir. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: They are. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I am happy to recognize Mr. Petrie as an expert in the fields of engineering and planning. Please continue. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Petrie, could you just give us a brief history of the approvals with regard to this property? Brief. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly, and I'll cut down, because I know that you summarized initially. The original diner was approved in 2015 with 182 seats. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 81 parking stalls, and 4 banked or future parking stalls.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The applicant came back before the board in 2017 with some minor changes to the building to include a partial basement in that building in lieu of a full crawl space, as well as some exterior building changes. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Those modifications were approved in January of 2017, and the resolution adopted in February of 17. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In late 21, the applicant, along with this professional, came before this board to seek approval of a covered deck
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: at the rear of the building. The proposed deck had a seating capacity of 74 patrons, but the applicant agreed at that time J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To a condition that limited the total number both inside and outside to the originally approved 182 seats. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: However, the addition by square footage increased the parking requirement to 117 spaces. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And the applicant continued to have the 81
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Spaces on-site, plus the 4 future spaces for a total of 85. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: That was memorialized in, January of 2022. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Petrie, can you review the existing conditions at the property? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm going to share my screen, if that's okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, the property is located at 410 Eagle Rock Avenue, and this is the property in question. It's very irregularly shaped, as you can see. Has a great deal of frontage along Eagle Rock Avenue.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I would say just west of the entrance to the reservation, and just east of the intersection with Prospect Avenue. It's designated as tax lots 1.01 in block J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 109, and that is this parcel here. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That comes along the face of the cliff and abuts the rear of the improved diner property, and then the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the property that's generally, rectangular in shape, which is Lot 105 and block 111.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Combined, the two properties have a total of 4.42 acres, and are, as the diagram shows, highly irregular in shape. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The lot 101, which is this lot J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: here, along the cliff face and along Eagle Rock Avenue, is zoned PURD, while Lot 105 is zoned B2. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: While the B2 allows the diner use, the PURD does not, which is why the application is… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Properly here before this board, and has since its inception appeared before this board.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you please review the overall layout plan? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So… the overall property J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm just going to move it over a little bit, because some of the faces are covering it up on my screen. The overall property, is primarily open space, as you can see here in the long leg that runs along Eagle Rock Avenue. The developed portion of the property is crowded to what is the west or northwest corner of that lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This, sheet is SP2 in your set. It shows the existing diner, which is here in this brown color. It shows the, the…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: covered deck, which is immediately behind that, in that same brown color. There's a dotted rectangular area in the rear, and that's the area that's going to show the specific proposals that are here, and that rear area is what you're going to see in all of the future plans. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Business. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Petrie, other than the green and the brown colorization, is this the same document that was submitted in the application set? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, it is. It's on the cover sheet, or it's on the set that's before you this evening.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: No, no, we don't need to give it an exhibit number. Please continue. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The plan shows… the line that's back here in pink is the… is the face of cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And this plan shows the area that is designated within that 100-foot setback from that face of cliff, so there's a substantial amount of the development of this property is already within that 100-foot setback. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: If this application is approved, will there be a small amount of demolition that takes place?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, there will be. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Please review that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, in your set, SP3 is the demolition plan, and basically what's going to happen on the westerly side of the parking lot, there's going to be some curbing removed, and that curbing is going to provide the ingress driveway for the expanded parking area. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And along the, the easterly side of the improved portion of the site, again, some, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Curbing is going to be removed there, to allow for the egress drive and some of the,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: curbed islands that will delineate the parking in that location. The existing parking lot will remain unchanged, primarily. The existing concrete pad that serves as the refuse and recycling area will remain unchanged in its entirety. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you review the proposed improvements? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So again, what we're proposing to do at the… at this location is to expand the parking into the rear portion of the site, so behind what is currently the refuse area, and this.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. PJ, please identify the drawing. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm sorry, this is SP4 in your set. Again, color has been added to clarify. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And this is the detailed layout plan. That's the title of the plan that's in your… in your set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: As I mentioned, the curb that was being removed to provide the ingress driveway, that is located here. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We will, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We will eliminate the curb there to gain access. There are currently 9 spaces in the back row of parking.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: When we're finished, we're going to end up with 7 spaces at that location, and we're… we're going to end up with one additional space, in the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Opposite area of that parking bay, which is just… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: North of that rear parking lot area. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the proposed J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Rear lot would be developed around the refuse area, and that's this area here that's shown with a stipple. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: pattern, so one would drive from the entry drive of the overall facility, come up and into the rear. It's all one-way circulation, and we did one-way circulation for purposes of trying to limit our disturbance.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Understanding that when my client came to me and asked me to expand the parking, The goal was to J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to… Improve the lot with an additional 25 to 30 parking spaces. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: when we laid this out, and laid out what we felt was a safe and effective and efficient parking layout, we only came up with 15 additional spaces. So, we fell far short of what J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: our client was looking for. Basically, I know what he was looking to do was to ensure that if his lease with the property down the street was ever, terminated, he would be able to have those 30 parking spaces on site. Unfortunately, we were not able to achieve that.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So we have 6 parking spaces along what I'll call the westerly property line. We have 7 parking spaces, including EV spaces, along the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Southerly limit of the parking J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the proposed parking area, and then we have 3 parking spaces immediately to the east of the existing refuse area on the opposite side. Again, one-way circulation. We do have a 24-foot-wide drive aisle in the rear so that we could accommodate vehicles backing out and into that.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: But then it reduces again down to the 14-foot, single-lane, driveway that comes back out and connects to the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Connects to the, existing parking lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, we have incorporated a… I guess, sorry, 16 spaces in the back, 6, 7, and 3. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: we… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Lost 2 here and gained 1 there, so that is a net increase of 15 physical spaces on the site. We do have…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 4 EV spaces shown on the, on the plan, 3 in the back, 1 in the front. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: what I will say is that, in my reading of the… of the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: FAQs that have been published by the state. I'm not certain that we actually even need to incorporate these spaces, but those spaces do represent, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 4 credits. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Now, whether those 4 credits take the 117 and reduce it to 113, or take the total number of spaces on site and increase it by 4 is subject to interpretation, depending upon who you ask. But, there is…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: there is, that stipulation in the state regulations. And the reason I say they may not be required is because there's… the requirement to incorporate EV spaces is only if there's an expansion of the use, which in this instance there's not, simply an expansion of the parking lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are also stipulations, that would suggest that even if they were required, the number of spaces would only be based upon the, the
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: increasing… increased spaces that we are proposing, and lots under 25 are not required to provide EV spaces. So, we provided them because we think that it… it helps our variant situation, it helps us come closer to the ordinance. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I will note that all of the stall sizes and all of the drive aisles throughout the, throughout the site, including the new areas, are all in conformance with your ordinance requirements.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: And you review the grading and drainage plan. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly, and this is… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Sheet SP5 in your set, again, it's been colored for clarity purposes. I'll pull it down on my screen a little bit. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So… There is a… there's… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: A grade in the rear of this property, there's a grade break in the rear of this property today that… where some of the water in the back… some of the stormwater runoff in the back goes towards the slope, and portions of it go away from the slope.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We did a series of test pits in the back. What we found was that the soil conditions are a dense clay with a permeability rate of less than half an inch per hour. So this is… this is impervious material. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And 4… between 4 and 5 feet down, we hit bedrock in each and every one of the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: of the test pits. So, we understand that the essence of this area is impervious today.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The disturbance of the area is 0.44 acres, and the new motor vehicle surface area is 0.18 acres. Both of those J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: are below the major threshold limits. As such, at the time of submittal of this application, there were no stormwater management requirements for this development. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We have, however, collected the stormwater runoff into two new inlets. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: One in the rear, and one at the, I guess, the north… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: westerly corner of the proposed parking area. And those two inlets will collect the stormwater and tie it into the existing system, which ultimately discharges to Eagle Rock Avenue.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The purpose of doing that, and the purpose of, of, Of curbing this, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This parking area, is to ensure that the water that's currently running off and towards the face of the cliff today and down that cliff is cut off J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Before it gets there. So from a stormwater perspective, we are actually reducing the amount of water that hits that cliff that could potentially,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Provide more stabilization to the slope because we're reducing that runoff that goes in that direction. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you review the lighting plan, please, Mr. Petrie? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. When we were here in 2021, there was… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Welcome. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm sorry. SP… SP6 is the plan that's… that's before you. Again, the, color's been added, and the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The pink represents the ice luxe throws of one half and one foot candle.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Based upon the lights that are proposed. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, when we were here in 2021, there were concerns from the residents that… that live in the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: did… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the former quarry area down at the bottom of the hill about the lights, and we… we actually did a new lighting plan and replaced the lights in the existing parking lot at that time. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Those lights that went in were LED fixtures, they all had house side shields, and they were all mounted at 20 feet in height. The…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: proposal that we have before you utilizes those exact same fixtures at that exact same height with those exact same house side shields. So, what we're doing here, and these lights are dimmable. So, what we're doing here is we're proposing fixtures J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that match what is currently there, what was put in in 2021, and have the same house side shields that were put in in 2021. So these were designed to minimize the impacts off-site again.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you please review the landscape plan? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly, and the landscape planning your set is sheet SP7. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And this shows both the trees that are proposed to be removed with X's, and the trees that are to be retained J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: have circles around them. So, the symbols that we're using along what I'll call, again, the westerly sideline, these X's here are the trees that are being removed. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There is one tree near the property line that's being maintained along that westerly property line, and all of the trees near the slope
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: are being retained. None of them are being touched, none of… there's no grading at those trees, and so all of these trees that exist along that… that top of… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Slope are going to be maintained. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We do… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: eliminate a total of 9 trees, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, all along this westerly side, not near the face of the cliff. Those trees generally are between J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 4 and 6 inch diameter breast height. There is one tree that is between 6 and 13 inches diameter breast height. As such, your ordinance requires 12 replacement trees that are a minimum of 2.5 inches in diameter.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: What we are proposing is a total of 12 trees that are all 3 inches in diameter. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We have two thornless honey locusts that are located, along the, the new end island that will service, to delineate the parking spaces at the, at the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: easterly end of the new parking area. We have, three, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Evergreen trees that are located at the Westerly side of the existing
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: refuse area to provide screening for that refuse area, and the remaining trees are located along that westerly property line. Again, those are similar evergreens. All of those 3-inch caliper trees count towards your, towards your replacement program, so we are in full conformance on-site. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Did you have an opportunity to review the consulting engineer's report? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, I have Mr. McNeil's, letter dated 12-15-25. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I think on page 3, his first Comment number two.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Was the fire circulation plan for the existing parking area. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: My comment is that the fire circulation plan in the existing parking area hasn't changed. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We do note that the fire apparatus… if the fire apparatus needed to access this rear lot for some reason, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: in the event of a fire, they would have to come in the out driveway. That's the only… that's the only reasonable access to get there. But I…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I would caution and suggest that the fire… the fire department can get to this area today, and this area is accessible by hose. If there's… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: If there were… A need, a fire in this rear lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: with… with one of the cars on fire, I'm gonna suggest that I don't think the fire department's going to take their million and a half or two million dollar vehicle back here and park it next to the vehicle that's on fire. That's my… that's my opinion, that's my understanding. I haven't spoken to fire officials in the past.
Ryan MacNeill, PE: Sorry to cut in, Mike, just… just wanted to touch on that point. So it was more, kind of the refuse and the fire circulations, and I definitely understand they don't need to get to the rear, parking area, but it seems like it conflicts with one of those existing parking spaces. I think you call it previously designated employee space. Ryan MacNeill, PE: It was more so… Ryan MacNeill, PE: I guess, if you could provide testimony on when the refuse truck would be coming, and if there would be parking at that time.
Ryan MacNeill, PE: And then similar to how you could maybe adjust some of the fire circulation to avoid that space. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay, so, I wonder if it's going to be best for me to go back to the overall plan for… for a second. I'm just gonna pop this up. So, the existing parking. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: what the witness do. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This is SP2 in your set. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: They ask the questions when they are done. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the… the… The spaces that are… are… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please do not interrupt me.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Phil, you're on… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: there are designated parking spaces within the lot that are… that are assigned to specific employees. So, the purpose of that, when it was originally approved, was to allow for J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Daytime access to the, refuse area so that they could, they could collect the refuse J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Meaning that one or… actually, there were two or three of these spaces that, at that point, blocked it, that…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: cars would have to be moved if they were being… if garbage was being collected during operating hours. Similarly, there's a space at the rear of the deck J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that has a similar condition. So, that hasn't changed, and those spaces are assigned to employees with the understanding that in the event of an emergency, this car has to be moved, and in the event of refuse pickup, there are two cars back here that need to be moved. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, we… we have that in the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That was in the original approval, and it continues in the current approval.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That was granted in 2021. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So it hasn't been changed. I understand the concern, but that's… that's been in operation since the… since the facility originally opened. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Any other comments on the engineer's letter, Michael? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, the applicant will submit a tree expert report, to the forester as a condition of any action taken by this board. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: On page 4, number 4, the applicant agrees that the species would be included in the tree experts report to the forester as a condition of any action taken by this board. And page 4, number 5,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the applicant agrees to accept a condition to include any steep slopes disturbance as a condition of any action taken by this board. I did take… we did take this seriously, and we did take a look at that steep slopes disturbance, and while it's not in the set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I can… hold on a second, I think I can… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We analyzed the steep slopes in the rear, and these areas in red J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: are the areas that would… that would potentially be disturbed by this application, and those are the areas that are 25% or greater. There… there's a total of 680 square feet
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: of… Of 25% greater area that's being disturbed. And it's literally on the… on the perimeter. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Of the… of the… project. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, this document was not submitted, but I did want to show the board that we did look at it based upon the letter that was received from Mr. McNeil. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Chairman, how do you want to mark that document? Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: I feel you're, muted. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please market A1 for identification. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Thank you.
Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Michael, you finish with that particular exhibit. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I am. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Then, how about changing hats and going on to some planning testimony? You've been qualified as a planner also. Can you just review the variances that are required by this application? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly, and I'm gonna… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm gonna go to the… I think, to the overall plan to start, because I think this is the place that makes the most sense. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The area that's… that's outlined J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Here, with a dotted line is the limit of lot 105.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The parking is in the PURD zone. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Because the parking expands into the PORD zone, as it does to the east of Lot 105, this is, in my opinion, considered a D2 variance for an expansion of an existing non-conforming use in that zone. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the bulk variances are all listed on our title sheet. There is a minimum setback of 100 feet from the face of cliff, and I'm gonna just show you what this is today. So, this line, which is…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: On here in kind of a… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: A light orange color is the face of cliff based upon the survey that was prepared by others. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The dashed line that parallels that Runs right here. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Through the diner itself, through the deck itself. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: and across to this westerly property line. So… so everything that's existing J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to the left of this line, as shown on the screen, is in that same 100 foot. So here's the parking area, it's… it's about… at its closest point, it's about 14 feet off of the, off of the, existing face of cliff.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We have… A fence line that's 4.7 feet from the face of cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The minimum number of parking spaces required for this property is 117. There are 85 existing and 100 proposed when you include the credits and the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And the reserved spaces. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The steep slopes disturbance of… 25% slopes or greater is…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: as I indicated, 680 square feet, and we're not allowed to disturb those slopes. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are also two waivers required, and they both deal with lighting, so I'm going to go to that lighting sheet, which is SP6 in your set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The minimum lighting levels in the B2 zone are 2-foot candles, and our minimum lighting level in this rear parking lot is 1.7. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And the height of the lighting fixtures is limited to 18, and the existing fixtures and the proposed fixtures are both 20.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, from a positive criteria with regards to the D2 variants, I offer that the existing expansion is located within an area that is significantly different from a topographic perspective from the remainder of the PURD zone. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There's no way that the area J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: at the top of the hill can be developed as part of that bottom-of-hill development. And that's why it was originally subdivided off of that tract. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This topographic difference, is…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: an existing condition on the site, an existing topographic condition that, in my opinion, can be considered under a D1 criteria. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It further makes this property, because of that topographic condition, particularly suited for the proposed use, because it's clearly… the usable land of this property is clearly more closely related to the B2 use. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Then the abutting property, which is probably several hundred feet below this.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Furthermore, the existing development, as I pointed out in the overall plan. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: SP2 in your set. The existing development already encroaches into that 100-foot top-of-bank setback. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, and… and into that PURD zone, so I think that the expansion of that is not a significant deviation. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In my opinion, the following purposes of planning are advanced by the proposed application.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: First, the promotion of the general welfare, as the improvement represents a safe parking lot configuration that maintains more patron parking on-site, which benefits the public utilizing this facility. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Similarly, the proposed parking expansion promotes the free flow of traffic. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: By reducing the movements onto and off of Eagle Rock Avenue by patrons who would otherwise need to park off-site in the, in the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 30 spaces that are located at the gym property.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We believe that the application also continues to provide adequate light, air, and open space by virtue of the fact that we remain J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: below both the B2 and the PURD standards for maximum coverage, and we have provided tree replacement on-site in accordance with the West Orange Ordinance. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I offer that the same purposes of planning service benefits under the C2 criteria for bulk variance requests. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I further offer that the irregular shape of the property and the topography offer purposes for relief under the setbacks for the C1 criteria.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I offer that the waivers for the lighting levels are supported by J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The fact that this is a more desirable visual environment as it relates to our neighbors, given the fact that the light poles and the light fixtures will match what is existing. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Similarly, having the light pole heights match is more appropriate from a desirable visual environment as well. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: With regards to detriments associated with the granting of these variances, I offer that there are really none that can be established. The area we are expanding into is generally not steep.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: With the exception of the outer perimeter, as shown on that steep slopes diagram that was marked A1 before. So, these are the outer limits J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that I'm talking about. This is the only area of steep slopes that… that is really being disturbed. And so the… this area J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Is generally measured by computer at only 680 square feet. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Parking in an area like this, where there is no on-street parking to further burden.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: is an equalizer for the use. As the applicant themselves testified, you know, when there is no available parking on site, those patrons who know about the parking down the street can drive down there and use it. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: But again, that's more movements into and out of this, Eagle Rock Avenue, corridor. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: because of that. So, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: By curbing this parking lot, as I mentioned in my testimony with regards to stormwater drainage, by curbing this parking lot in the back, we prevent any stormwater runoff that's currently running down the slope. We cut that off.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We collect it, and we bring it into a stormwater drainage system and bring it out to Eagle Rock Avenue. So, that will… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that will act J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to further, ensure that the runoff from this property doesn't negatively affect the slope, and therefore will help it remain more stable. So, in my opinion, there's no real detriment, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To the public in any instance associated with these improvements. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Can you review the negative criteria? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Again, I offer that the proposed expansion really is an expansion… really isn't an expansion of the use. The use already exists. What we're expanding is the parking.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The use itself is not changing, the number of seats is not changing, the number of the square footage of area available to patrons is not changing. What we're doing is increasing on-street parking and bringing it closer to conformance with the ordinance requirements. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: As such, we are improving the nonconforming condition as it relates to parking today. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The guide rail that's proposed behind the curb at this site is… is a unique guide rail. It's a reinforced guide rail.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The guide rail has steel posts. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It has a timber face along those steel posts, but in addition to that face, there is a steel cable that runs between those posts behind the wood so that there's further protection for cars. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's exactly the same detail that's been functioning on this site since it opened, and it is, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's… it's there in place to ensure a safer condition.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: in my… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: opinion, the impact on the master plan and zoning ordinance are virtually non-existent, as the area we are working in is not wooded. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The parking area itself is not steep. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And… and what we're doing is surficial in nature, we're not building up, we're not building a structure that goes up from there. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I see certainly no substantial detriment to the public good, as the entire design is based upon servicing the public need and improving the traffic conditions associated with patron use along Eagle Rock Avenue.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In my opinion, this board has the ability, based upon the supporting law, to grant the requested variances under both the D2 J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Criteria for the expansion of the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the use and the C1 and C2 criteria for the various bulk Variances that have been requested. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Did you have an opportunity to review the Planning Consultant's report and the original Planning Consultant Report from the Nishuain Group? You had two separate reports there.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, the, the… The current planning report by Mr. Dockney is dated 12-10-25. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are a handful of items that he's listed. In fact, on page 3, item number 4, we have no objection to the bulk variances that were established in his report. I think I've addressed each of them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: On page 4, Item 4, the steep slopes, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: as I indicated, we, we… we prepared this document, or this display, for that specific reason, so that we could show the board that we're very limited in the steep slopes, that we are disturbing.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And on page 4, about lighting, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We understand that the existing lighting may exceed the levels along the frontage of the property at Eagle Rock Avenue. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And that we may be below the standards in the rear. Our goal here, though, is to ensure the appropriate lighting at Eagle Rock Avenue, at the entrances and exits. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And to minimize lighting as it relates to the residents located below this property to the rear. So, we felt that the standards… the standard standards for the industry, which call for a half a foot candle in the rear parking… you know, in parking areas.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Were an appropriate thing to implement at this location because of the sensitive nature of the use immediately behind us. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Page 4, variances regarding the cliff face. We agree that a variance for construction within the 100-foot setback is required. I think we explained J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: why we did what we did. I didn't achieve my client's goal, which was 25 to 30 parking spaces, but I refused to push the parking lot beyond the limits that I felt would constitute a safe and effective parking lot.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: As it relates to the face of the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The existing parking area is located within 14 feet of the cliff, and the proposed curb line that separates the parking area from the cliff is about 8 and a half feet off of that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Face of cliff, and behind that, there is a guide rail and a fence, and the fence is what is actually, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that… reduces that down to, I think, four and a half feet. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The page 5 design waivers, I think I addressed in my, in my testimony with regards to the minimum lighting levels and the maximum fixture height.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And… And I think the planning testimony that's been provided, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Addresses the comments remaining with regards to planning. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Nishu Wain Group prepared a, document on August 22nd, 2025, with regards to the follow-up, from the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: from the Site Plan Review Advisory Board, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Item number one in that letter was regarding stormwater, and it was resolved per the memo.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Item 2 regarding EV spaces. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We did relocate them. However, some of the further clarifications that have been provided by the state suggest that the space that we did in the front for handicapped parking, and I'll see if I can get there on the overall sheet, again, this is SP2 in your set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Can I blow this up? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the most easterly handicapped space, we… we added an EV charging station there, and the recent clarifications from the state suggest that you can't do that. That you… that the…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That the handicap space J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The existing handicapped spaces can't be utilized, that the space has to be a handicapped space specifically for, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: for EV charging, and it doesn't have to relate to the door at all, so we can relocate a space in the rear and provide a loading area at that space that would, in essence, serve as an EV. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Handicap, accessible space, if that's what the board wants us to do.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We would not increase the number of spaces on the site, we'd simply provide a loading area next to one of the existing spaces. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Item number 3, we agree that the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that the clarification indicates the ADA parking space doesn't count towards ADA requirements, and that's… I misinterpreted the comment when they made it, that they said we needed to add another ADA space, and by count, we don't need another ADA space, but I understand that the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that the ADA spaces that count towards the ADA requirement can't count towards EV. Doesn't make sense to anybody, but neither do most of the state laws. Item number 4, we did provide turning movement plans as part of the submittal. Item number 5,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We did provide pedestrian access route from the rear parking area, that comes down J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Crosses through the parking lot in striped areas, and accesses the sidewalk at the rear of the building. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We agree that there's an off-site parking agreement. However, this agreement, as the applicant indicated, can be terminated within 30 days… with 30 days notice, and so that's why this parking becomes important. We had a kind of an open-ended agreement at the,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: At the, bowling alley, when the bowling alley was closed, but now with things in use, we don't know how long that J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Easement will stay in place. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Item number 7 in that memo is a statement regarding refuse pickup, and I don't think any, response is required. I think that addresses the memo's J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: At least… In my… Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. It is witnessed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Before we go to questioning by the members of the board and the public, we are past our usual 9.30 breakpoint. It's 9.38. Let's take a 7-minute break and come back at 9.45. We are in recess.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Welcome back, everybody. It is 9.45. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Recess has been concluded. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I see most people have gotten back, but let's give it a… Give it another few seconds… to repopulate. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We have a few board members who need to… Return… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Gascio, while I'm waiting for a couple of more board members to return. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I went back through the paperwork. You have applied for a D2 variance. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And as a D variance, if you were to be approved, it would require 5 affirmative votes.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do you agree? Your audio is off. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Your audio is off. Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Yes, I understood that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know I require 5 votes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, just wanted to make certain. Let's just see… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We're still waiting for a couple of board members to return. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Before we resume… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It's just… Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Chair, I think we're all here. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Oh, there's Mrs. Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Ms. Chindler, kindly call the roll so that we can confirm. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: A, a quorum, and B, that everybody is back and can vote.
Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: course. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen! Laurence Cohen Board Member: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Danamiller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. DeVovee. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Schwarzbaum. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Year. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Error. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: He's here as well. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Here, sorry, here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss? Alice Weiss, Board Member: Here. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And I am here as well. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Gassione, you finish with, Mr. Petrie on direct? Robert Gaccione Esq Attorney: Are you ever completed with direct, I assume there may be some cross-examination. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Your assumption is probably correct. Let's start with Mr. DeBovey. Questions for the witness based upon his testimony? Yeah, just a few questions.
Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: the… I just want to make sure I'm clear on the current conditions Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Of the existing improvements as they relate to the cliff face. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Am I right in saying that… Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: The pres… the… the closest the improvements go… come to the cliff face is 14 feet, presently. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Is that right? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I want to make sure that I have the exact number that's on my… Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: drawing its… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 14.6 feet at its closest location.
Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Okay. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: And what would be the closest… post-construction. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 4.7. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Was there any other way to… Configure the parking. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: to… Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Have a result that, doesn't come as close to the cliff face as it does, as you're proposing? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: And how many parking spaces might you have lost? Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Of the 15 that you're adding. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 2 to 3.
Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Okay, so you would have been at 13-ish. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: 12, 13. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Okay. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: As far as… and I don't know if you can speak to the drainage Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Issue, and maybe this is for somebody else, but… Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Have there been any storms where the existing drainage system Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Was insufficient to manage the amount of water produced from A heavy downfall. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The existing system has a detention facility built underneath the parking lot, and the system discharges to Eagle Rock Avenue to the drainage system there, which is part of the county drainage system.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I am not aware of… of any… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: storms where this system has failed, and if it were to have failed, it would flow by gravity to Eagle Rock Avenue. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There's… there are no improvements to the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'll say to the… to the backside of the highest grade on the property. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Okay. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Alright, that's, that's all I've got. Thank you very much for your… Responses. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. DeMode. Thank you. Mr. Danamillo. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: I just have two questions. I had a bunch. Thank you for your professional, testimony. You covered most of my questions. One, the EV spots. Will they be EV ready, or will we actually be installing, what, level 2 chargers?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We have, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We… we… if… if we're… if we were to install them, we could do it in phases, we could do… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 2 now, and then 2… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: one and one, I guess, over… over a 5-year period, I… I would think that from a practical perspective, it's… given that there are only four of them, they would all be put in at one time. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Okay, my second question may be easier to reference, site lighting plan SP6, but, 5 of the 6 lights look great.
Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: They're aimed from the perimeter towards the building. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: I'm concerned about the light, and this leads to my question. Yes, that one. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: That one's aimed towards the cliff. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: if we are… get to a point, where we may consider approval with a condition, would you consider potentially relocating, exactly, to the Evergreens, such that, I mean. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: half a foot candle, one, and then only a half-foot candle, that's nice, but there's probably at least a tenth-a-foot candle aiming at the… over the cliff and off to Newark.
Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: I'm concerned that the… even if it's furthest away on the site, it might shine like a beacon over the cliff. Reversing that might go a long way as a condition for approval. Is that something you'd be open to? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Absolutely, and it's something that can be done, with… with ease. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: Thank you for understanding that. I have no further questions. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Danny Miller. Mr. Sussman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Sussman? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yep, I'm sorry, no questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. Mrs. Weiss?
Alice Weiss, Board Member: No questions, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Schwarzman. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Thank you for your testimony. Can you go over the drainage from the back of the property, where the detention basin is, is going to be, and the flow, as well as the curb? How are you… you… you testified about a curb. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Let me start that the existing detention system that services the site is located below the parking lot, to the
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: east of the covered deck that was recently constructed. The… so in this location, I'm circling on this plant. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that detention system discharges to an inlet along this curb line that ultimately discharges out to Eagle Rock Avenue. Now let me talk about what we're going to be doing, and I will refer to sheet SP5 in our set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, the… Currently, the… the…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: crest of the hill is located in this area. And so from… from… from this area, at about an elevation of 430 to 40, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This portion of the site today pitches to the back. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And to that cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This portion of the site today pitches towards the front. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So what we're doing is we're grading this the same way it's graded today, so we have the least amount of disturbance, we keep this high point right in this location, and we pitch back this way. But we… sorry, I don't know what happened there. But we've curbed this whole
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: parking lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, any water that's running this way now, and down the hill, will hit this curb line and run and be collected into this inlet at this location. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And ultimately, we'll connect into the storm sewer system at that same location. There's the inlet there today, which discharges out to Eagle Rock Avenue via a pipe. So, the front portion of the parking lot, or the, I'm sorry, the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the North… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Westerly portion of the parking lot drains to this inlet, the rear portion of the parking lot. From this point.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To this point, all of this water drains to this inlet. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Right now, all of that water runs down the slope. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, from that perspective, the water that runs down the slope today has the ability to, to… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Negatively impact the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And that's what causes failure in these situations. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Stormwater runoff running down a steep slope causes erosion and causes slough. It causes failure of that slope.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: By putting the curb line in, we cut that stormwater off. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And we've checked this pipe. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to ensure that it has the capacity to handle the 100-year storm. Pipes are generally sized for a 25-year storm, but in this instance, if I size this pipe for a 25-year storm, the water J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: if it… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: couldn't get into the pipe, would top the curb, and you would have a concentrated flow on the slope. Not a good design. That's why we did it the way we did it. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We made sure that this pipe has the capacity, and if an overflow occurred, it wouldn't occur to allow here, because this inlet is lower than that inlet. So if the pipe filled up, it would bubble out this inlet, and it would come this way.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Rather than coming down the slope. So we took every precaution in order to ensure that we provided the best protection to that slope from the stormwater perspective. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: What is the height of the curb? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The height of the curb is 6 inches. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: 6 inch, and the inlet… so, and what's the size of the pipe for the inlet? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This is… this is a 12-inch pipe at a 1% slope, and that 12-inch pipe has 3 times the capacity that I need in a 100-year storm to get that water out of there. So it's not… it's not like it's close, Mr. Schwartzbaum. We sized it to ensure that
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It is not gonna fail. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: And you're going to pitch the parking lot to go into the inlet? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, so all of our grading here shows… because right now, as I said, this is the high point. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And this water from this point back goes to the back of the property. So we've followed that grading pattern, and we've pitched J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: This contour shows that this water from this high point is going this way, ultimately into that inlet. This high point here directs the water down along the curb line, and ultimately into that inlet there. So, all of this stormwater here
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Travels perpendicular to that contour, and then ultimately down and along the curb line and into that inlet. So. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That's how we designed it, and… Look. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I've done a lot of work in this town, and I've… I've worked on this… the slopes for a long time, and I've evaluated slopes when there have been catastrophes. Robert Gaccione Esq: I know the damage that uncontrolled stormwater can cause. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I took this very seriously. I knew that this was the biggest concern that this board would have, and I wanted to make sure that what I put before this board was going to work permanently.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Would a higher curb help? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: it's not necessary, because a 6-inch curb… first of all, a 6-inch curb's a standard curb, and second of all, the 6-inch curb has the capacity along the gutter line, because we analyze that. We look at when a drop of water hits here, and it's got to run J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: here, it's gotta run along this curb, all this water's coming here, and it's also running along this curb, and ultimately going down into this area. We analyze the pitch along this curb, and we analyzed, what's called the gutter flow depth.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To ensure that… that this area along that curb doesn't get more than two and a half, three inches deep at its worst condition. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay, so you're saying if we have some downpour of, I don't know, 1, 2 inches… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: an hour, whatever it is. So we've… because we've experienced some of that, that the curb line, as well as the pitch and the inlet, will… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Be able to handle it, and we won't have runoff over the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Correct. The only thing that's gonna run from the cliff is anything that's behind the curb, and that's what happens today.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay. The… and in regard to the EV, spaces, So… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: From your testimony, it appears that initially they are not going to be designated EV spaces? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The EV spaces are… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: are signed for EV, they have the charging stations, they don't have to be dedicated. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The… Okay. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Because they… you're… I believe you just testified, and I just want some clarification, that you're not putting in the charging stations there, so therefore there's no reason to dedicate it to an EV.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, no, no, no, I said… I'm sorry if you misunderstood. We showed an EV space in the front by the handicap, and there's an EV charging station, it's shown right here on SB5, but we're not putting that in because, that eliminates this as a handicap space. I don't understand the laws, I'm just… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And they're continuing to put out clarifications. Not all of the clarifications make sense to everyone, but… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Basically, we could make this space EV and have a loading area next to it, just by moving this curve back a little bit, and that would… that would work as the EV handicap
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: accessible space. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the handicap… accessible space doesn't have to be anything other than an EV space. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That someone could use the loading area to provide charging for their vehicle. It doesn't have to have anything to do with the building. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I don't make the regulations, I just try to listen to their interpretations and implement them. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: One last question, and this is really following up on, Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Mr. Dattamill's comment in… so, are… you… you testified that the lights are dimmable. Yes. So, is each one dimmable, or are they going to be, ganged by…
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: fixtures. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: They'll probably be ganged, but the lights are individually dimmable. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay, and the reason why I'm asking that is, you know, in the event that we find that we have a lot of light pollution just from the… over the cliff. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: We have an ability to reduce that lot. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Exactly why we selected this light. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Okay, no further questions, thank you. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're welcome. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Schwarzbaum. Mr. Cohen? Laurence Cohen Board Member: I have a question about the maps and the diagrams. What are… are there bankable, parking spaces here that have not been built yet?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, let me show you… Sp2 in the set. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are… I wonder if I can blow this up. Nope, can't do that. Okay, sorry. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are 4 parking spaces that were part of the originally approved site plan along the westerly… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Curb line of the ingress drive along the westerly side of the building. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And so… If you were to drive in.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There's an area for 4 spaces along the curb line. It pinches the driveway. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I… I looked at those spaces, and… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I've… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I don't like the spaces myself. I think they… I think they constrict fire access, and that's why I'm not a huge fan of them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: They're there, they're approved, the board approved them initially. Somebody else designed the site when it first came before this board, I didn't.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So I… I haven't suggested that those be built, because I… I don't… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I don't like the way they pinch the fire axis. Laurence Cohen Board Member: That's all we're talking about, only the… there's no, like, 80 spaces or anything you're planning to build in the future, nothing like that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, no, no, no, no. So we have 81 existing physical spaces on the lot. So there's parking in the front here, there's parking in this portion of the PURD zone. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There's parking along the side of the building, and there's parking behind the building. And this is the… this red line is the curb line.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: At the rear of the building, so there's parking in this area. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: What we're proposing to do is to reconfigure a couple of these spaces. We lose… we actually lose a space, and we add 16 spaces back here for a net gain of 15. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Right. Do you own all the green property, the green areas? Chit Chat owns all of that? Yes. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes, Laurence Cohen Board Member: I guess one stipulation might be that, you know, you enhance the green area with more vegetation. I mean, you own a lot, which is very nice. It's actually much better than I thought it was, when I understand it now. You own a lot of this green cliff here. You could make that, you know, more beautiful for the community.
Laurence Cohen Board Member: more green. You could add something to the community, that'd be great, and then, anyhow, I'll go back to some… is that an idea? A good idea, maybe? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Everything's an idea, so… Laurence Cohen Board Member: Is that something your client might be interested in? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, as I said, we are… we are… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In terms of the… the area along the cliff, and I just want to go to the landscape plan, because I think that's the most appropriate discussion to have that on. So… so… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In relationship to the face of the cliff, there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 trees that exist in this area today.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: There are 9 trees along this… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'll say this westerly property line. Those are the only trees that we're eliminating. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We're not… we're not touching these trees that are close to the… to the slope, that are close to the top of the cliff. We're not touching them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, we are incorporating two new trees in this island that we're proposing that this end island that's right next to the walkway, the pedestrian walkway that gets you to the building, we are providing screening to the
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To the side of the, the refuse area, and we are providing screening along that that… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: westerly property. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Right, but I'm speaking about the area way to the east. Laurence Cohen Board Member: With it, which is on the… almost curbside to Eagle Rock. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In this area? Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yeah, yeah. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We… we're… we're not touching that, but we certainly could add landscaping in there if that's, Laurence Cohen Board Member: Which is… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The board feels is appropriate. Laurence Cohen Board Member: really, you know, ecological, you know, like a pollinator or something, you know, for bees and trees that are natural, you know, something… beautify the road and the town. It might be an extra, you know, people would enjoy that and see Chit Chat as being a great,
Laurence Cohen Board Member: a great, business for West Orange that likes West Orange, whatever. I think it might be good. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, I… I think they are… I think they already are, but I could see… look, I think this… this face of cliff comes out here somewhere pretty close to Eagle Rock in this area, but we certainly have an area in here that we could put enhanced plantings in, and I think that, you know. Laurence Cohen Board Member: I don't think that's an unreasonable ask, because that… Yeah, something that's just not aesthetic, but also, like, ecological might be great, you know.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay? Laurence Cohen Board Member: And then, I just have some questions about the cliff. This is, I believe it's not a natural cliff, it's a quarry which was man-made blasted, is that it? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That is correct. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm sorry, I think I referred to it as the quarry earlier, but I remember when they shut the quarry down. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Are there any special, dangers for, that man-made… this man-made cliff collapsing? You know, with… with… Laurence Cohen Board Member: Within the perimeter of the extra parking spaces.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The… the, the rock face, and I've seen… I've seen the rock face from below, I've seen the rock face from above, and I've seen the rock face from a helicopter, actually. But the, the rock face, you know, in… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: you know, is generally… is generally stable. What… What negatively affects rock. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: is… is freezing water. So… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's one of the reasons when we put this together why we determined that we needed to pick that water up and not let it flow in its current,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In its current direction, and get that into a storm drainage system, because by taking water off the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We… we help to stabilize it, in… in my professional opinion. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Okay, and your fence, your fence is going to be 4.7 feet from the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Is there a way that this is very, very tight fenced, that nobody or no little animal, you know, somebody's dog or a little kid could squeeze in between and then fall off the cliff? Is there gonna be a very… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Mr. Cohen, I don't know if you had the opportunity to go to the site, but the fence that's there today is the same fence that's going to be installed around the rest of the property. So this is a… this is a… I think it's a 6-foot-high aluminum
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Picket fence that has, spindles that are less than 4 inches apart, so you can't fit through them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, yes, I think that it's… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The fence is an… was an appropriate choice and continues to be an appropriate choice. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Or is an attractive nuisance that teenager or kids, you know, could climb. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's… Affirmable? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: it's not really climbable. I mean. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I've stood on top of the guide rail that's there to look over the fence.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Myself, but it, it… I don't know. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It would be… it would be a tough climb. Laurence Cohen Board Member: But as a property owner, just be careful with that. I mean, in the olden days, kids were much more adventurous and got in trouble doing things like that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I understand, because I happen to have been alive in those olden days. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yeah, me too. So we were… but I don't think kids are as adventurous these days, they're more into. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Cohen, it's getting late. Let's try to. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Okay, anyhow, you did a great presentation, and you, convinced me a lot that there was a small… this is a small, footprint that you're adding, too. Thank you.
Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Mr. Chairman, I have one quick question, if I could. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Let me finish, regret Mr. Scott to go, and then I'll come back to you, Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: What was your question? Mr. Scott, you're up. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Thank you. I'll just remind everyone that the Board did vote that we should go in alpha order when calling members for questions and comments. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, Mr. Petri. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Did I hear correctly, and I apologize if I didn't. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: That trees are not going to be taken down? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Or is it just a small amount? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the trees… Let me just go to the landscape plant so that we can… Do this right.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So this is SP7. The trees that… that are… that exist along the face of the cliff. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the top of the face of the cliff, those trees are not being removed. The only trees that are being removed are near the westerly property line. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, these 9 trees are being removed, the ones that have the X's on them, and we're replacing these trees with trees along this property line. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to kind of replant that same. We're replacing with trees along the westerly side of the refuse area, and we have two additional trees that we're planting in the landscape island that helps define the parking spaces.
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, thank you. And to follow up on what Mr. Schwarzman was asking. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: About the curb, and I understand that, the standard is 6 inches, but as a condition of approval, would you be willing to go to 7 or 8? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yeah, I think the county has a standard detail for 8-inch curb, and if the board were so inclined, we could certainly… I'm just going to go to the grading and drainage… I'm sorry, yeah, the grading and drainage plan, SB5, and you're set. We could agree to increase the height of the curb along J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: whatever stretch you want, but I would think that starting somewhere in here, perhaps along the back of these parking spaces, that would be,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: even through here, I wouldn't have an issue raising that curb to 6… to 8 inches, if that's what the board felt was appropriate. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, thank you very much for that, sir. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Are any, disabled spaces being taken away? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You mean accessible spaces? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes, accessible spaces, because I… I know that there are many… there are several in the front, and there are none in the back, and there's none on the side. Are any being taken away? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The answer is no. The handicap accessible spaces are required to be the closest in proximity to the entrances.
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Okay, thank you very much. And, my final question, would be on, what is referred to as, cool paving. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Is that something as a condition that the property owner would consider, cool paving? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Going to a… Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Eliminate the heat island effect. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yeah, I think that's why… that's why we have, that's why… that's why we've incorporated islands. But, I… I don't know that this is… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: an appropriate location for cool paving. Generally, cool paving has a porosity to it, and I don't want to introduce water into the soil at this location.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Because it's a… it's a very high clay content, as I said, based upon our test pits, and that… that is… that does not take water well. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I see, so you're saying that the technology for cool paving might interfere? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: with, with the moving of water, or it would absorb it. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, my concern is that the introduction of that type of pavement may put more J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: water into the soil, and this particular soil at this particular location has a… has a very high clay content. I think I said that the, that the… that the…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Infiltration rate is about a half an inch per hour, and so, therefore, that would cause that soil, because it doesn't absorb water well, it causes the soil to become slick. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And it slides… I'm sorry, you can't see my hands. It slides amongst… on itself. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And that's exactly the situation that causes, slope failure. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I see. All right, thank you. That's all the questions I have, Mr. Petri. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're quite welcome.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Can you take down your share screen for a moment, Mike? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Certainly. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Liebman? William Barbee, Board Member: Ms. Neuer, you forgot me before you go. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm gonna get to you, I'm just trying to… Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Hopes to go in order. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We still have one more… is he still… Mr. Liebman? Marc Leibman Esq: I'm here, Mr. Chairman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I was hoping to get to you tonight. Marc Leibman Esq: Yeah, I mean, I have… I will take 5 minutes of your time. Marc Leibman Esq: All I have is an administrative extension. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I know what you have, I just want to give you the opportunity, if you want to leave, you can, but you can stay till the end and we'll see what we can do, but we do have a hard stop.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: At 11 o'clock. Marc Leibman Esq: Alright, bye. Marc Leibman Esq: That's fine, we'll stick around. I've invested over 2 hours on the meeting, so I'm gonna stick it out to the end here. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You're welcome to stay. Mr. Barbie! William Barbee, Board Member: Okay, thank you. Ms. Petrie, thank you for your presentation. I thought it was very thorough. All my outstanding board members, William Barbee, Board Member: It raised all the questions, particularly, litter, and, DeBobi. William Barbee, Board Member: Can you pull up your slide? I think it's number 7?
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: SP7. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes, sir. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes, so… William Barbee, Board Member: So, have you considered the… now, one… well, I'm not going to ask about the trees, I'm not going to ask about the drainage, because that stuff was already answered. But what is the impact, because you created this impervious surface. William Barbee, Board Member: Have you studied or considered the impact it'll have on the neighbor to the west of the diner? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Again, that… that stormwater, and I'm… I'll… I'm gonna go to… Migrating drainage plan.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The whole parking lot's curbed, so any stormwater that's running in this direction is collected in this inlet, which is the northwest corner of our parking lot, ties back and into the same system that goes out to the street. So, in terms of J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: you know, impact from the impervious surfaces to the adjacent parking lot, and it is a parking lot. We're cutting our stormwater off with the curb line, and we're including the guide rail, and we're including the fence for separation. William Barbee, Board Member: Alright, that's all for now. Thank you.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're quite welcome. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Sussman, you said you had another question. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Petrie, for your testimony. Going back to the drainage, and this just came to my attention when Mr. Schwartzbaum was asking about the drainage. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Do you know if the owner has a maintenance program in place to keep those outlets clear? Because if they get backed up with debris or leaves or something, it doesn't matter what the capacity of your pipes are. If the water's blocked, that driveway's… that parking lot's going to fill up very quickly in heavy rain.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Even in 2015, when this was originally approved, there was a requirement for stormwater maintenance manuals to be filed, and those are required to be, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: serviced… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: periodically, depending upon the type of system, and the reports, I believe, are supposed to be provided to the municipal Engineering Office for all of the properties, in the municipality. I know that J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: that that's… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: That those reports are not frequently filed, but they are… they are required to be filed, and so, yes, there is a responsibility to
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To, maintain that system regularly. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yeah. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I'm not so much concerned about filing of reports, I'm concerned about keeping those outlets cleared, so they don't back up. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Right. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I understand. I mean, the good news… the good news on a property like this is that the pipe that we're tying into has a good deal of pitch down to Eagle Rock Avenue, and this portion of Eagle Rock Avenue also has a good deal of pitch. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And so, I think what we're… what we're dealing with here is pipes that are less likely to clog, because the… the…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Pipes that are flat. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: clog faster than pipes that are steep, because there's… in pipe flow, there's what's called a cleansing velocity. So, the faster that water flows through a pipe, the cleaner that pipe stays. So, when you have steeper pitches on the pipe, those pipes pass those solids through them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And so in this… in this particular instance, I'd be less concerned about this pipe going out to Eagle Rock Avenue than most… most properties. You want to watch them as you get along the… the valleys where those pipes get flat.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: On the mountain, it's… this is… this… this stormwater's easy, in my mind. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I understand that. I'm not talking about the water flow through the pipe, I'm talking about the outlet itself at the surface. If that gets blocked, the water doesn't even get to the pipe. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I… I understand. And… and it's a good question. I mean, look, the… the… I… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I've had the opportunity, as many people that have spoken so far tonight have said, you know, I… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I get to this facility fairly regularly. It's a great meeting place, it's an easy place to get to, and a lot of people say, I'll meet you at chit-chat for a cup of coffee, or for breakfast, or for lunch. And I think this property is very well maintained.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You know, in my opinion. You see, you see properties that suffer from neglect, this is not one of them. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's a well-kept property. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Understood. I just want to make sure that the owner's aware of it, and they… Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Keep it cleared out so it performs its intended function. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Understood. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Thank you. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: You're welcome. That's it, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Sussman. Mr. Petrie? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Spoke to me a little bit about the guardrail. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And the ability of the guardrail to withstand the vehicle. There's a guardrail, and there's gonna be a fence.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The aluminum fence? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, Mr. Neuer, I don't do it often, but… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The term guardrail has gone out the window because somebody hit one, went, you know, went through it, and damaged their car and got seriously hurt. So they call it a guide rail now. They changed the terminology. It's not meant to guard you. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: But in this… in this instance. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The guide rail has been designed to stop a vehicle.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So, because it's not only a post and rail system, but it's a post and rail with a metal cable. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: As you would see on the Garden State Parkway, for instance. So, in this instance, the guide rail is very well reinforced. Yes, there is a fence behind it. The fence is there more for pedestrian J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: safety than it is for vehicular safety. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And… and it's the same condition that exists on the site today. So everybody… everybody who's been there has seen it. If you notice it, there's a guide rail behind the curb, there's a fence behind the guide rail. We're doing the exact same thing.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you. That's all that I have. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're welcome. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Dockney, questions for the witness? Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Yes, thank you. And one very quick question, if you don't mind returning to your exhibit on the steep slopes. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: I just wanted to clarify, so you have multiple colors here. You said it's only the red that is the steep slopes that are technically in violation of the township ordinance? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The red areas are the slopes that are 25% or greater, and those are the areas that are restricted from disturbance. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And so the other slope areas can be disturbed, but the 25% can't, and that's… we have 680 square feet of disturbance.
Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Okay, so just to clarify that the blue and the yellow areas on this exhibit are lesser slopes of, say, 10-15%? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Correct. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Okay. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Thank you, I don't think I had any further questions. The, the… Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: testimony provided was very thorough, and then the questions asked by the board members covered everything I think I was curious about. Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you so much, Chris. Mr. McNeil. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Petrie, apologize for interrupting you earlier. Just getting a little too excited to talk engineering. I have two quick questions for you. So, I know, kind of getting back to what we discussed.
Ryan MacNeill, PE: So that existing parking space, obviously in existing condition, there's been no issues with that refuse circulation, as far as you're aware. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Correct. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Okay, alright. Ryan MacNeill, PE: That's that, and then for drainage, so I know, have you taken a look, or do you see a need for upsizing any downstream piping, based on that increase of, flow and, really volume to those pipes? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, the increase in flow is fairly minimal. I… you know what, I think somewhere in this pile of paper, I have… actually have the,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the calculation. But I, I think, I think the increase that's coming from that portion of the site is less than a half a CFS. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Bye. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Alright, yeah, so no… no need to upsize any of those pipings to the discharge so that you go rock. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Okay. Ryan MacNeill, PE: Alright, thank you. That's all I had, Mr. Chairman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. McNeil. Ms. Carballo, any questions for the witness? Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: Yes, I have, two questions. The first one. Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: Have any geotechnical studies been conducted for a stability analysis of the slope?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We did… we did perform test pits, as I said in my earlier testimony, and the top J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 4 to 5 feet of the… of this area that's being redeveloped is… is a heavy clay with a… with a permeability rate of less than .5. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: inches per hour, and that is over Bedrock, which is located between 4 and, I think, 5 and a half feet. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Deep in this… in this rear parking area. Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: Has anything… has any assessment been done in regards to, like, you know, the rock and the soils for slow failure?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, but my… My experience tells me that the… that the worst thing that you can do J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: in… in soils like this, with rock conditions like this, is introduce… is introduce water into the soil. So, I think… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: By virtue of putting in a permanent surface with curb and eliminating that water going into that soil, we're going to improve the stability of the, of the, of the slope.
Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: Okay. Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: My second question, have any consideration been taken to monitor the, slope stability during and after construction? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We have… we have not suggested such a monitoring, we have not undertaken such a monitoring, because the… the topography that's shown on the survey that was prepared, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Before the original development, and the topography in this area that was shown on the as-built survey are…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: remarkably similar, so I would, you know, I would say that we didn't… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We weren't alarmed by anything. When we did our test pits, we did not notice any, horizontal J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Cracking in the surface of the soil, which would suggest that that soil moved, and… but it is why we did the, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Why we did the test pits, because we wanted to ensure that, you know, we understood what we were dealing with in this area. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay, thank you. No further questions. You're welcome.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hey, Ms. Carvallo. Zayibeth Carballo, Township Engineer: You're welcome. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Petrie, take down your screen, please. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the public, this is your opportunity to question the witness based upon the testimony which he has presented to you this evening. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: This is the time to ask questions, not to make statements in favor of or in opposition to the application. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please raise your hand so that you can be recognized by the moderator and admitted into the meeting in order to ask your questions. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please remember to keep them to questions only.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Raise your hand so you can be recognized. West Orange Township: Yes, we have Ms. Palwasha back to ask a question. Please state your name and address again. Palwasha: Hi, it's me, Palawasha, at 1043 Smith Manor Boulevard. I had a. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Welcome back. Palwasha: Thanks, I've been here all night, I didn't realize it's gonna be this long, I'm putting my kids to sleep, but I'll make it quick. I think I have, like, 3-4 questions. you know, my concern was about the light, you know, I don't want it to be a beacon on the cliff. I already have one lamp post that I see on top of the cliff, and it's pretty bright. I don't know if it's from…
Palwasha: the restaurant, or from somewhere else around that area, but I like the fact that it's going to be dimmable. Hopefully, it won't be an issue. Palwasha: So, that was one of my concerns, so if the lights are dimmable, but to my understanding, it's dimmable, right? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: They are, yes. Palwasha: Okay, and the other thing was, Palwasha: you know, I was reading online, I feel like the parking is still too close to the cliff. After the construction, you know, some of the cars are gonna be, like, 4 or 5 feet from the cliff.
Palwasha: you know, what's gonna be the stability? I mean, how are we gonna avoid a catastrophe? I mean, I think during Hurricane Ida in 2021, we had those apartments, you know, they were on a cliff or something like that, and there was a landslide. I mean, there's nothing on the bottom of the cliff, but Palwasha: still, you know, you have cars, I think… Palwasha: I would assume over time, you know, the cars, being parked on that area is gonna cause some type of erosion. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay. What do you think?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay, so, first of all, a clarification. The 4.7 foot setback to the face of cliff is a fence. It's not the parking lot. Parking lot's a little over 8 feet. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: From the face of cliff, so… but we have to… we're not allowed to put any structure, so we have to tell you what the closest structure is, and that's the fence. In terms of… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the pavement causing erosion. What I've… what I've indicated to the board is that we have, we have curbed the lot.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And we have provided drainage within the lot so that the water doesn't run onto the slope. I think that's a really important point, because it is the water that causes slope failures, exactly the cause of the failure that you're talking about of the apartment building. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: The soil got too much water in it, and it ultimately sloughed off and collapsed, and we had… we've had several of those conditions over time. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And we've done repairs in several instances for conditions such as that within West Orange. So I'm very familiar with these conditions and what causes them.
Palwasha: Okay, and the other question, since the EV batteries, charging spaces are going to be in the close to the cliff, is that going to have any side effect, to the water, you know, running downstream, over time? Because, you know, we have… Palwasha: fish and geese or whatever wildlife that's there, you know, I just don't want it to be harmful to them, because there's a lake there, Crystal Lake, like, there's two Crystal Lakes, I think one by the bowling alley, and there's one
Palwasha: under the cliff, that's also called Crystal Lake, but I just want to make sure there's no, you know, toxins or anything leaking from cars that are now closer to the cliff edge. Palwasha: What is your take on that? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, EV spaces are a state requirement, they're not a local requirement. As I indicated in my opening, I'm not sure that we're even required to incorporate them, but by incorporating them, we get closer to the J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: requirement
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: contained within the ordinance for on-site parking. We are short, even with the addition of these 15 spaces, we're still short of what the ordinance requires in terms of parking. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: So… so the EV spaces help us to get closer to that. I… I am not aware of any situation where EV… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Spaces have caused damage to downgradient, stormwater drainage systems. Palwasha: Or… or ponds, or lakes. Palwasha: Okay, and to my understanding also, the trees are basically… are the trees that's gonna be cut off between the professional building and Chit Chat Diner, nothing really by the cliff edge when I was looking at the map.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're exactly correct. The trees that are being removed are between us and PSE&G. The trees that are along the cliff are not being touched, they're being protected. Palwasha: Okay. Are we gonna be seeing those cars, potentially, by the cliff from… Palwasha: from our view, or is that gonna be really out of sight? I'm just kind of curious if we're gonna be seeing, like, if we're gonna be seeing a lot of the light beam from the car, now that there's gonna be a couple spots near the, cliff?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I don't believe so. The guide rails are at the same approximate height as the lights on the vehicles, so I… I wouldn't suspect that you'll see that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I'm not saying that there's not some large truck that may have higher lights, but, you know. Palwasha: Damn. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yeah, but for the most part, I would say no. Palwasha: Okay, and I know I have, like, 20 seconds left. Does the parking spot have space for snowstorms? If you have to put a snowbank or whatever? Like, is that gonna clog up the pipes, over time, or during that period? Is that gonna affect anything?
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Okay, great. With the soil. Great, great question. On a, on a site such as this, you know, when you… when you have, slope areas, there's… there's usually very little space for… for the stockpiling of snow. In this particular instance, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: When it snow… when there's a heavy snowstorm. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And they plow the lot, they may lose parking spaces, for a period of time. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And… and in a situation where parking is tight, the… the owners generally pay their… their snow removal contractors to take the snow off-site in those… in those heavy storms, because they can't afford to lose the parking. So, I… I haven't…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: been in this lot during a snowstorm. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: it's, it hasn't been an experience that I've had, so I can't tell you exactly how they do it today. Palwasha: Okay, thank you. I know everyone's tired. May I add a suggestion? You know, the one strip of land that you have, I was thinking maybe adding a sidewalk for the future, walkers. You know, you have at least 100 houses and the building. That would be a great, you know, Palwasha: you know, walking place for more customers to come up to you. I know you're struggling with the parking space, but, you know, I don't know if that's a township in between Chit Chat Dine or something that you guys can do down the road, maybe having a sidewalk.
Palwasha: for customers. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We could certainly look into that. I know that's something that has to be approved by the Council, but we could certainly look at that. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It's actually like evidence will be county reissued. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Ms. Palasha, can you please confirm your last name for me, please, for the record? Palwasha: Sure, Duftani. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Thank you. Palwasha: Thanks. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you so much for your questioning, Mr. Tltani. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hands up, members of the public, questions for Mr. Petrie? West Orange Township: Yes, we have Kevin Malanga. State your name and address for the record. Kevin Malanga: Thank you, Megan. Kevin Malanga: Kevin Molanga, Ridge Road.
Kevin Malanga: Mr. Petrie, good evening. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Good evening, Mr. Malanga, how are you? Kevin Malanga: I'm splendid, thank you. How are you? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I couldn't be better. Kevin Malanga: What is the planning philosophy behind having a 100-foot setback from a cliff face? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Generally, those requirements are established in order to, limit tree removal along those locations, but the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You know, they can also be aesthetic in nature, but generally they deal with protecting the top of the slope so that trees aren't placed in those locat… or trees aren't removed in those locations.
Kevin Malanga: And does it have anything to do with… activity of humans. Kevin Malanga: That could possibly destabilize the cliff face. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, it certainly… it certainly does in terms of, you know, from a… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You know, from a use perspective, you know, you're trying to eliminate J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I guess, activity, you know, people… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You know, near the top of the slope. Kevin Malanga: Earlier, you referenced the Nish Wayne report.
Kevin Malanga: Yes. Of July 2025. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Kevin Malanga: There are photographs in that report that show the cliff face. Kevin Malanga: Do those photographs accurately depict the location of the diner, the parking lot, and the cliff face? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I… Honestly, I'm… kind of pull that report. I don't know that the… Kevin Malanga: Would you like me to put it on screen? I can certainly do that if… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yeah, I don't… I don't have the… I don't have photographs in that August 22nd, 2025 report.
Kevin Malanga: Okay, I don't know if I have the capacity as a member of the public to share screens. West Orange Township: You can talk. Kevin Malanga: But would you know if I… if I do? West Orange Township: Yeah, I think that he… I think that you can. Kevin Malanga: I cannot… I don't see share screen here. West Orange Township: Maybe I need to promote you? Which, which report is it? I have that agenda as well. Kevin Malanga: July 25, 2025. It's actually a red line report of an earlier report. Kevin Malanga: And it's page 3. West Orange Township: I think I'm just gonna promote you to panelist, and then you can share. That might be the quickest way.
Kevin Malanga: Okay. West Orange Township: athlete. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good suggestion. West Orange Township: Here you go, Kev. West Orange Township: Are you here? Kevin Malanga: I am here. West Orange Township: There you go. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You may have to take down the. West Orange Township: I will take down my timer. West Orange Township: There you go. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Give it a shot, Mr. Malenga. Kevin Malanga: Alright, I clicked on share, and it, is asking me if I want to share a link. Kevin Malanga: But do you… Do you see my screen showing the… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: So… Kevin Malanga: No. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Nope. Kevin Malanga: That's not working, because it's just asking me to share a link. Kevin Malanga: Well, actually, maybe that'll work. West Orange Township: In the meantime, I'll try to find the agenda.
Kevin Malanga: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It wouldn't be on the agenda, because it wasn't submitted by Mr. Malanga. West Orange Township: Oh, okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It's part of the application. West Orange Township: It won't be a link in there. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: No. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It wasn't submitted to the board secretary. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Wasn't it a report from the board, planner? Kevin Malanga: Yes, it was. It was part of the agenda. West Orange Township: Okay, and you said July? Kevin Malanga: It was July 25th, 2025. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yeah, I have the August 20th, 25, and it doesn't have photos attached, so I'm sorry.
West Orange Township: I'm not seeing it either here. Kevin Malanga: Let me see… West Orange Township: CME, Chit Chat… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I don't see it either. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It's 15-145 slash 410. West Orange Township: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: planning for you, July 25, 2025. West Orange Township: Okay, I think I've found it. West Orange Township: Let me see if I can share. West Orange Township: my screen. Kevin Malanga: Megan, thank you very much for finding that. Kevin Malanga: And Mr. Chairman, same to you. Thank you. West Orange Township: Can you guys see? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Go one more… yeah, go another…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Go one more page. West Orange Township: That's only 2 of 2. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It didn't have pictures intact. West Orange Township: Hmm. West Orange Township: Incomplete. Maybe there's another? Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: I think there's the one that follows up. This is just the completeness. There's one more from Nishwain. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: Yeah, there's a July 25th from Nishuayne that has photos that was a follow-up from the completeness. I have a hard copy in my hands here that definitely has photos. I do not have it on my computer in front of me, though. West Orange Township: Architectural… oh wait, that's all Seton Hall. West Orange Township: Affidavit of mailing, chit chat, legal notice, con… engineering.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Try 25-12-10. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Planning… oh, that's CME, that's not Mishuayan. West Orange Township: I'll see maybe that one, revising. Site Plan Submission Checklist? West Orange Township: I'm not seeing… can you see it on? Oh, I'm not sharing the agenda now. West Orange Township: Shut that down. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: If you go onto, the agenda, and go onto… West Orange Township: Page. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: It's the, 1, 2, 3… or… That's the fourth item down.
Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: 15145 slash 410. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Eagle Rock Avenue Planning Renew. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Oh, that was exploring. West Orange Township: chickens. Alex Fisher, Planning Brd, Esq: Yeah, that's the one you're looking for, right? It has pictures and everything. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Mr. Chairman, I opened that document, I have the pictures, I'm looking at them. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Can you share… West Orange Township: Why don't you share? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: How do I do that? West Orange Township: At the bottom of your screen. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: 24. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yeah, I see shared, okay. West Orange Township: Yeah. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I have it in a… West Orange Township: It should show you some screens from your computer. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay, let's see what happens.
Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay, there you go, share. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Did you get it? That… oh, did you get it? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: It says you started screaming. West Orange Township: Look at you! West Orange Township: Okay. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay, Kay, I, can you see it? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I can see it. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Malayla, which picture are you referring to? Kevin Malanga: The second one, that one right there that shows. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: the bottom. Kevin Malanga: Right, it shows the closer view of the site. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Kevin Malanga: So… Mr. Peacher, do you see the fence that is… Kevin Malanga: Along the cliff face and the parking lot.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, it's… it's along the… It's behind the curb of the parking lot, yes, I see that. Kevin Malanga: Okay, and what is the distance between that fence and the cliff face? I see there's a grassy strip that's there. Kevin Malanga: So… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: At its closest point, it's 14.6 feet. Kevin Malanga: And is… that runs true all the way through the site, not just where you are proposing the expansion of the parking lot? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: No, it's… that's at its closest point. It's not at all points, it's just at its closest point.
Kevin Malanga: Was consideration ever given to placing parking along the curb? Kevin Malanga: Of that area further to the east of the proposed improvement. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In that location, there is, there's one-way circulation. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: And parking… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: angled parking as it goes to the east. So, no, you wouldn't be able to back out of the parking spaces that are there. Kevin Malanga: That would be an interference with that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yes. Kevin Malanga: Okay, I have no other questions. Thank you very much, everyone, for finding the report, and for allowing me to question pertaining to it.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Thank you. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Malanga. Mr. Sussman, you can take your screen down now. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay, I don't know how to… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You know him enough? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Up, up the top, there's gonna be a stop share, it's red. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Okay, Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I don't see it. Alice Weiss, Board Member: What's it? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: It's on your overall, Oh, now, now we… now we… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Now we have your life. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: There you have my… okay, we'll get rid of that. West Orange Township: Yeah, X out, all of that. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Mr. Sussman, look at the, the upper reach of the, Zoom meeting screen.
Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Oh, I see… it says MS, my… it says my screen? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In the upper reach of that screen, towards the center, there's gonna be a green that says you're sharing your screen, and right next to it, there's a red that says stop sharing. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: I don't see that. Let me see. West Orange Township: trying to see. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Oh, wait a minute, okay, it's over here. Okay, I got 3 screens going, okay. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Yo? Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Good? Okay. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Thank you. West Orange Township: We have Sam Webzler. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm sorry, there's… I, I… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Diane… Diane's screen is still being shared.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: What's that? J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I think Diane's screen is still being shut. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Megan's drink. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Megan, sorry. West Orange Township: Screen. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Take your… take that screen down, please. West Orange Township: Yes. West Orange Township: I'm trying. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Nice picture, but… West Orange Township: I don't know what that is all about. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: out of time. West Orange Township: I don't know what… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. West Orange Township: I don't know what that is. West Orange Township: Let me go… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Can you try putting your timer back up? West Orange Township: Damn. West Orange Township: I'm chime in. West Orange Township: It's a new laptop, so I guess it's a little wonky. West Orange Township: Here we go. West Orange Township: I don't know where… Share, stop sharing.
West Orange Township: Where it… I'm not. William Barbee, Board Member: Maybe just exit the meeting and come back into it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Well, she's the moderator. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yeah, she may not… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: If she exits, we all exit. West Orange Township: Okay, and now… I've, like, opened up a big… okay, let's see. West Orange Township: Share. Stop share. West Orange Township: I can't figure it out. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, then… Megan? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: You see at the top of my screen where it says, webinar, and if people click on webinar, you can see all the members without that.
West Orange Township: You are a rock star. Is that better? Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yeah. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hello. West Orange Township: So let's go to Mr. Wexler. Samuel Wexler: Hi there, this is Bree and Sam Wexler. We are, at 1046 Smith Manor Boulevard, part of the Crown Villas. I have two questions. The first one is, could the construction or expansion of the parking near the cliff Samuel Wexler: Cause environmental damage, including the release of toxins or pollutants into the lake, harm to the surrounding vegetation, or impacts on local wildlife.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: In my opinion, the answer is no, because the water that we're… that comes off of this parking lot is not directed towards the lake, it is actually directed away from the lake, so… Samuel Wexler: Okay, and then my next question, I apologize, it's been a long meeting if part of this has been answered, but given that the restaurant does have a liquor license, have the safety measures, been adjusted, you know. Samuel Wexler: for… for this, instance, because… because of having the liquor license? Like, is there,
Samuel Wexler: you know, with that guardrail or guide rail you mentioned, you know, for scenarios, is it able to withstand multiple impacts and attempts of force in case there's more than one instance? Samuel Wexler: And I just want to make sure that that reflects on, like, the cliff stability. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: I… I… I'll try, I'll try. I don't know that I understand the question, but the, the… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Design of guide rails has nothing to do with the use, it has to do with the condition, and…
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: generally, the guide rail, there's a… there's a standard for requirements for guide rail when you have a certain drop-off within 4 feet of a parking surface. So, in this instance, the guide rail has been designed to stop a vehicle. I… I can't… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: tell you more than that. I mean, if… if somebody hit it, and then somebody else hit it right behind them, I don't know what happens. Samuel Wexler: What about… what about, I mean, like, over time? Like, let's say there is an accident, and then, you know, another time later, there's, you know, another incident in that same area. Just want to make sure that that guide rail can withstand multiple impacts. Not necessarily at the same time, of course, but over time.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, just, just like anything else, if, if, if, J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: If a physical improvement is damaged, it needs to be repaired. I mean, if… if you drive your… if you drive your car into a building, you know, and you don't repair it, the next person that drives the car into the building at the same location could knock down the building. But… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: you know, you don't… that's not how it works. I mean, if you… if somebody hits something, and they damage it, it has to be fixed. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You don't know the condition of it after it's been damaged.
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You don't know its ability to withstand impact. Samuel Wexler: Okay, thank you. And this is Sam Wexler here, her husband. What, during construction, what, what are your, Samuel Wexler: your plans on avoiding any sort of waste that's gonna go into the lake below? I asked that already. Samuel Wexler: During the construction period. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: Well, there is… there are requirements under the state standards for us to file a soil erosion and sediment control permit application. There is a plan contained within the set, and that plan is designed to,
J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: To ensure that stormwater runoff… or that, sediment is not directed down the slope, or… or… J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: to the, to the property to the west, for that matter. So… so there are measures in place. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: and those are overseen by people from the state. This is in… within the Hudson-Esex Passaic Soil Conservation District, and they have inspectors to come out to ensure that the plan is implemented appropriately.
Samuel Wexler: Thank you. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: You're welcome. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, folks. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Megan, hands up. West Orange Township: Yes, we have one more, Miss Reedy, I believe. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: First Lady. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: reading. West Orange Township: State your name and address for the record. West Orange Township: Oh, I'm not sure where they went. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Rini, do you have questions? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Hello? West Orange Township: She's had her hand raised for a little while. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Well… West Orange Township: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We'll just wait until… she can speak when the time comes. West Orange Township: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Anybody else with a hand up? West Orange Township: Nope. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Going once, going twice… Close off the public questioning section of the application.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Did you take your timer down? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Actually, you can leave it up. We're now at the point Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm sorry, Mr. Gastion, do you have anything further? Robert Gaccione Esq: I do not on my direct. I would like a brief moment to sum up after any comments from neighbors or interested citizens, but that's it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, so then… so then I will… Mr. Gascio, let me open up the floor to public comment. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Because we're getting very close to 11 o'clock. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the public, this is your opportunity to speak on the application, either in favor or in opposition to the application. You will be sworn under oath.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You will be able to give your testimony, your statements, your alleged facts, and you are subject to cross-examination. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please raise your hand so that you can be recognized in order to provide testimony. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Megan? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Any members of the public wishing to speak on this application, please raise your hand. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Megan? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Brill? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do we have Megan? West Orange Township: I'm sorry, I didn't realize I muted. Yes, we have Miss Reedy again, and I unmuted her, but she's not responding. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Sorry, Ms. Reedy, but you have to be responsive in order to be able to present.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do we have any other hands up? Any other member of the public wish to be heard on the application? West Orange Township: No, not yet. West Orange Township: She's the only one. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Well, we've given her the opportunity. West Orange Township: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I declare the public comment portion of the application closed. Take your timer down, please, Mr. Cassione. Robert Gaccione Esq: Mr. Chairman, you're gonna try to have the vote tonight? If you are, I'll make sure I keep my comments short. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Brevity is the soul of wit. Robert Gaccione Esq: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. Obviously, this is a situation where Robert Gaccione Esq: We're reducing the noncompliance, and there were certain issues that were raised. One had to do with the light fixtures being adjusted. We can do that.
Robert Gaccione Esq: Adding planting near Eagle Ridge, Eagle Rock, we can do that. Robert Gaccione Esq: and the 8-inch curb cut along the 8-inch curb along the rear, we're willing to do that. Pedestrian access has been added. The tree replacement will be complied with, and then some. So I think this application does nothing but improve the circumstances. Robert Gaccione Esq: Because we have additional parking we're adding that would reduce the intensity of problems, if any. Robert Gaccione Esq: on Eagle Rock as a result of ingress, extra ingress, and egress, because no parking is located here. We still have the 30 spaces down the street, but they can be terminated on 30 days notice. I thank the board for their time and attention. I've cut my summations substantially in order to try to give the board time to deliberate and vote on this matter tonight.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you so very much, Mr. Gastio. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Does everybody see this picture with the rocks and the water, or am I the only one stuck with it? Robert Gaccione Esq: That's all I have. William Barbee, Board Member: We all see it. J Michael Petry PE PP AIA: We all see it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, so. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: If you… if you… Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: as Brent said, if you… on the top of your screen, it says, on the left-hand side, it says webinar. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Click on it. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yeah, I don't have that. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: move your mouse over where you see West Orange Township screen, move it over, and then you'll see Webinar.
Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: webinar. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yep. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Did that a long time ago. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I will exercise the chair's prerogative and offer a motion. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I move to approve the application for preliminary. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And final site plan approval. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Together with a D2 variance for the expansion of a prior non-conforming use. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: and the C bulk variances are set forth in the, Philip Neuer, Chairperson: notices and application, and as testified to by Mr. Petrie. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I… would make that approval conditioned upon a number of items. One, the curving
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: In an area closest, or along the, cliff Face. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Will be raised to 8 inches instead of 6 inches. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: As approved by the… Engineer… the board engineer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Make certain that it covers a sufficient, area. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: 2 in the leg, the vacant area, I'm calling it a leg, along Eagle Rock Avenue. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Which is vacant, and does… and in which there are no improvements, Suggested or requested
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Will be the subject to additional landscaping. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: To the reasonable satisfaction of the zoning official. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: With respect to the lighting, it will be dimmable so that to the extent that it causes problems for any of the neighboring properties, then the brightness can be dimmed. Laurence Cohen Board Member: complete. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Those are my conditions. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Oh, I'm sorry, the approval is also for the waivers regarding the lighting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: As requested in the application. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I would include findings Consistent with the testimony of Mr. Petrie, which we find to be highly credible,
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The concept of directing water, which currently flows across toward the cliff face. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: is being diverted away so that it is controlled. The drainage improvements are a substantial improvement to what exists on the property now. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The, approval of this application will promote the general welfare Philip Neuer, Chairperson: There will be safe parking, Mr. Petrie's testimony about eliminating additional,
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Trips off of the site to the bowling alley, or the former bowling alley for parking. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: It's a safety factor. Laurence Cohen Board Member: The, as I said, the drainage has been improved substantially. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes, ma'am. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The application contributes to light, air, and open space. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The maximum cost permitted is not being affected. Chris Dochney, CME Assoc: The use itself is not being expanded, it's simply the parking that's being expanded? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The property is in a regular shape. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: which is, supportive of a C1 variance.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The, we don't find any detriments. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Again, the stormwater was improved by moving water away from the cliff slope. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: With respect to the negative criteria, as Mr. Petrie testified, this is not an expansion of the use, only the parking. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And it becomes a lesser noncompliance, which is an improvement. One of the goals with respect to nonconforming uses is to try to bring them back into conformity, and this application accomplishes that. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The guide rail is an interesting feature. It has steel posts and steel cable.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And would be a safety factor. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: That's my motion. Is there a second? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: A second. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm sorry, I didn't hear who that was. Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Scott seconds. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Scott seconds the motion. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Chandler? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: May we have a roll call, please? Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Barbie. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Cohen. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller… wait, I'm sorry, excuse me. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr… Schwarzbaum. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mrs. Weiss. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Trust me. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes.
Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Dana Miller. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: I'll say yes if we add the condition that the sixth of the six lighting posts not be oriented toward the cliff. Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: That was omitted in the conditions the chair… chair added. With that… with that, additional stipulation, I vote yes. Robert Gaccione Esq: But then… I meant to add that in my brief summation. We agree with that. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Can you repeat that, please, Mr. Vandermiller? Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: No lighting fixtures will be oriented towards the cliff. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: As the presenter of the motion, I accept that as an amendment. Mr. Scott, as the seconder, do you accept the amendment?
Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: So the motion as amended has been voted upon, other than me. And I vote yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Hey, M. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank everyone. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: What's that? Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: And I… and I said your name just for consistency purposes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Lawyer. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Yep. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, I voted yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Yep, I was just doing it so that we could have it straight. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, so the D2 variants required 5 affirmative votes, we have 5 affirmative votes. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The application is approved, subject to the conditions stated on the record. Mr. Gastione? Thank you.
Robert Gaccione Esq: Thank you for your time and attention. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I'm speaking, Mr. Gasciardo. Robert Gaccione Esq: I'm sorry, I thought you called on me, my apologies. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: No, what I'm telling you is that the resolution will be drafted by legal counsel. You will be provided by… with a copy before we can present it. I don't think we'll have it ready for next week, but it should be ready for the February meeting. Ms. Chandlin will be in touch with you with respect to that. Robert Gaccione Esq: Thank you, Mr. Norr. Can I now speak for 30 seconds? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please! Robert Gaccione Esq: Thank you. I just want to thank the board for their time and consideration. Obviously, the board is very knowledgeable, went into great detail with regard to this application. Yeah, my apologies for cutting my summation short and leaving out some details, but that was in order to get to the 11 o'clock curfew. Again, thank you for your time and attention.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, sir. Niko Katsanos, Applicant: Thank you all. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Mr. Liebman, are you still here? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: I see him there, there you go. Marc Leibman Esq: I am. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, Philip Neuer, Chairperson: We're past 11 o'clock, Mr. Liebman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: And I can impose upon the board to say, even though you think you're only going to be 5 minutes. Marc Leibman Esq: Yeah, I mean, it's really an administrative approval. The boards I represent, I don't even make the lawyers show up to do these. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Bill, can we try for 5 minutes, if everyone's willing? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: If everyone's willing to stay, is anybody else to leave? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay, this is, application… Bear with me.
Philip Neuer, Chairperson: CV22-12, Seton Hall Preparatory School, Property at 700 Prospect Avenue, an application for expansion, for extension. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Of the time in which to, Philip Neuer, Chairperson: comply with certain requirements under the approval. Cancel your appearance for the record. Marc Leibman Esq: Yeah, for the record, my name is Mark Liebman with the CSG Law Firm on behalf of the applicant in Seton Hall Prep. It's really just a very short, argument. I don't even know if I would call it an argument, just a… Marc Leibman Esq: presentation. The statute permits us three one-year extensions. Your ordinance permits an extension. We need an extension because there's outside agency approvals that we're still pursuing, including county approval and, I think, some soil movement that we need to get done.
Marc Leibman Esq: And some plans that are still in resolution compliance. Marc Leibman Esq: From an approval that was granted in Oct… it looks like it was approved in September 28, 2023. The resolution was adopted October 19th, 23. It was published. Marc Leibman Esq: October 26, 2023, and we're asking for an extension for one year to October 27th, 2000… Marc Leibman Esq: 26. And just to remind the board, this was an application a few years ago to expand a Marc Leibman Esq: Maintenance shed that's on the school's property and converted into, basically, a gym for the students.
Marc Leibman Esq: And then to convert another building on the property to a maintenance shed. Marc Leibman Esq: There was a D2 variance granted for it, and we're just asking that this prior approval be continued for another year. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do any members of the board have any questions for Mr. Liebman based upon his presentation? Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Do any members of the public have any questions of Mr. Liebman with respect to this application? Kindly raise your hand so that Ms. Bro can recognize you. West Orange Township: I'm not seeing any yet. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good. Public questioning is closed. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Anything further, Mr. Liebman?
Marc Leibman Esq: No, thank you for hearing, Mike. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: You can thank Mrs. Weiss. Marc Leibman Esq: Thank you, Mrs. Weiss. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the public, this will be your opportunity to speak either in favor of or in opposition to the application. Does anybody have any testimony they wish to offer? Please raise your hand so that you can be recognized. West Orange Township: I'm not seeing anyone yet. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Seeing none… Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I will close the public comment portion of the application. I will offer a motion to approve the application for an extension for one year in accordance with the statute. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: I have a clear and vivid recollection that Mr. Malanga taught us a lot about bird strikes, and it was a very interesting underlying application.
Michael Dannemiller, Alt #2: So I move approval of the extension. Is there a second? William Barbee, Board Member: Okay. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Second, Mr. Danabella. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Ms. Chandler kindly call the roll. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Burby. William Barbee, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Cohen? Laurence Cohen Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sports Bomb. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Scott? Brent Drapper Scott, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: This is Weiss. Alice Weiss, Board Member: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: Mr. Sussman. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: Yes. Diana L. Chandler, Board Secretary: And Chairperson Neuer. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Yeah. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Thank you, Council. Marc Leibman Esq: Much appreciated. Thank you. Have a good evening, everybody. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Please send me regards to Mr. John Thomasi, Sr.
Marc Leibman Esq: I will as soon as I see him. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: With the emphasis on the senior. Marc Leibman Esq: Yes, he's… his office is right next to mine, Mr. Chairman. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Okay. Marc Leibman Esq: I will pass the regards. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Members of the board, thank you for your very hard work tonight. This was a very productive meeting. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: The meeting is now adjourned. Irv Schwarzbaum, Vice Chair: Good evening. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Good night. Philip Neuer, Chairperson: Good evening, Happy New Year. Mark Sussman, Alt #1: buddy. Todd Dubovy, Alt #4: Have a good night, everyone. Good night. Myles Elgart AICP, PP - CME Associates: Good night. Laurence Cohen Board Member: Very nicely.