Good afternoon, West Orange. This is Joe Fagen, the Zoom moderator, and welcome to the West Orange Township Municipal Budget Meeting for uh April 27th. Uh you're welcome to join us here in council chambers at 66 Main Street. Uh
or um and I just want to point out that we have two budget meetings coming up. This is the first in a series of three that so far have been scheduled. We have one on May 5th and one on May 12th. At this time, I'd like to turn the floor over to our council president. >> Okay. Hi. Thank you everyone for being
here and those on Zoom. This is our first budget workshop. Madame Clerk, >> this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with section 5 of the Open Public Meetings Act, Chapter 231, Public Law 1975. The notice for this meeting
was placed on the Township of West Orange website on April 16th, 2026. Councilman Koviaak >> present. >> Councilwoman Ruden >> here. >> Councilwoman Williams >> present. >> Council President Scarpa >> present. Please let uh the record show
that Councilwoman Castelino has not yet arrived. Uh would everyone please rise for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic to stand
indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> The council is now in their public meeting. >> Okay, great. Um, is there anyone who has public comment before we get started? Well, okay. Seeing none, we'll close public comment.
>> To close public comment. >> Wait a second. >> Just because or is it public comment for the budget in its entirety? Is it by >> No, it's not by department. It's five minutes.
>> Five minutes on if you have something you want to talk about >> just in general on the budget. >> It would be on the budget, but if you have something else, >> Yeah. No, I move to public comment. >> Okay, public comments closed. >> Wait, no second.
>> Yeah. Uh, all in favor? Any opposed? Public comment is closed. >> Okay. So, Mr. Jatiniac, I'd like to uh invite you to give us a little overview of the budget. >> Thank you, Council President. Just give
me 30 more seconds. So, Council President, I I'll fill in time said Mr. Face of the Time and I'll fill in this on his behalf. So, I just want to say on behalf of Mayor McCartney, um I want to thank you for uh having us allowing us to submit this
budget today. I do want to thank all the department directors, chiefs, department heads, and so on who helped us put this together. This was a long process. I do want to recognize the fact that Mr. Datiniac, as you could see from the detail, spent a lot of time putting this
together because based on last year's presentation. So, I want to give him a lot of kudos for putting this together, and I appreciate him putting in all the detail. Hopefully, that's enough for everybody, and I know that there's going to be more questions, but maybe some were answered already based on his uh
the due diligence. So, we're ready to present. Um, and soon as Mr. The teniac is ready to go. I'll turn over him. Okay. before we begin looking at the
2026 budget document in detail and I will take the the viewers at home of a little tour of our website and how to find um our latest posted proposed budget. Uh I just want to talk about what are the major drivers for 2026
that we're going to be getting into more detail over the the coming budget hearings. So our budgets have to balance. Appropriations are balanced by revenues. The main revenue generator for the township is
taxes. >> So that is that me that is obviously our focus uh today and and for the for the next uh budget hearings is what is the impact on taxes. So the impact on the
taxes primarily this year are due to appropriation or spending increases. So and we will post this budget driver worksheet tomorrow on the website. Right Pete? We can post this tomorrow on the website. Um so what are the drivers? So
the first thing that we'll look at is is our salaries. So, our non-public safety salaries, these would include DPW, our office workers, our or health inspectors, our construction code inspectors, our recreation personnel. We
have an increase year-over-year in what we're budgeting by $490,000 on our public safety side. That's our our police and our fire uniform personnel. Now, our increase in salaries
year-over-year budgeted is $1.7 million. The next line item that we're going to look at is insurance. So, we have an increase in insurance of 409,000. That includes our health insurance, our liability insurance, workers
compensation, and unemployment insurance. The next major driver year-over-year is our utilities and our solid waste collection. So for utilities, we're talking about electricity,
gasoline, water, our basically rental of our fire hydrants from American Water. Uh I don't know if I said gasoline and and diesel fuel for our fleet.
and our solid waste collection is our payment to the joint beating. The next item that we don't control, but is part obviously part of the levy and is part of our our appropriations is our appropriations to the free public
library and that went up year-over-year $56,000 and very quickly that is due to the increase in the NVT uh net valuation taxable that came from our revaluation.
Another major driver is our social security uh employer share of FICA. As our salaries increase, so does our cost um uh for social security and Medicare that is borne by the the employer.
Unique to Township of West Orange is the 457b employer contribution. This is a direct contribution to certain employees. Um whether it's through a employment agreement or a collective bargaining agreement. Um there is a
contribution to uh a $457b plan. That's up $84,000. We have legal expenses that we're anticipating an increase of nearly $280,000 this year. Bless you guys. We all remember how many snowstorms we
had. One of our major, the major budget driver this year is our snow removal services. This includes the purchase of salt and our our outside contractor snowplowing services. That's up 2.2
million, nearly 2.3 million. Debt service and and capital contributions. We've talked about debt service a lot in 2025. We'll continue to talk about it in 2026. We have an increase in debt service payments.
That's our payment of bond principle. Uh bond anticipation note principle, bond anticipation note interest, and bond interest. Uh that's up 282,000. Then our public safety departments, our
largest uh departments in in terms of employee size and and and salary and wage expense. They also have sizable operating budget increases for this year. A lot of it due to one particular program that we I'm sure we'll talk
about tonight. And then I know we hate to lump in, but there's a lot of smaller departments that have gone up, but mostly down this year to try to offset. And all of those smaller items that I have not highlighted,
they sum up to a $1.1 million decrease in appropriations, but ultimately leaving our appropriation driver at 5,991,000. On the revenue side, what were we able to do with revenues?
And in miscellaneous revenues, some are up, some are down. Overall, we were able to increase miscellaneous revenue a somewhat poultry amount, 150k. Our major revenue increase receipts from
delinquent taxes of 1.1 million is directly related to um how we when we adopted the 2025 budget because we had such a a long runout for um the fourth
quarter tax bill. We had a much larger tax receivable at the end of 2025 than we have in previous years. that allows us to anticipate a larger amount for receipts from delinquent taxes simply because we were owed more at the end of
the year. So with all those factors, we look at an increase to the amount to be raised at $4.6 million. Then I'm going to hopefully find my tax.
There we go. So, I know it's not really the best formatting for um well, we'll look at it again later on, but I just wanted to as as we're talking about tax driver and I wanted to talk some numbers.
Sorry, >> council president. I just wanted to ask a question about when we can ask questions. There's a couple of points I wanted to follow up with you on. I don't know if you've got more of a presentation. I should come at the end. >> What would you prefer? >> I mean, I was just going to talk about
what the proposed increases. I was just sort of getting into that. >> Okay. And then >> we'll just I'll just wait then. >> S. Okay. >> Yeah. First. So on the net valuation side of things
which is when we talk ratables that's what we mean. So the ratables are are what we use to calculate um the taxes. So we come up with an amount to be raised and then we would
divide that into the ratables to figure out our tax rate and then what that particular property would pay. So if we scroll down, we look at what's one tax point. One tax point or one penny on
the taxes is $994,000. So if you said to me, John, I really need to cut the tax rate by one penny. I would have to reduce the amount to be raised by taxation by $994,000.
What is one penny on the average home? It's about $60 on the average home. So for each penny we go up or down, we cut the average residential property by $60 or increase them by $60. The average residential property for
2026, same as it was in 2025, is $615,472. So when we apply our rates, 2025 is finalized. 2026 is our proposed rate. We are looking at an increase on
the average home for local taxes. That's everything we can control. our police services, our fire services, garbage pickup, sewer, recreation programs, inspection, all that is, let's
round up, $280 on the average home. The library piece on its own, due to that increase in our net valuation taxable going up to $10 billion, is a $32 increase on the average home. I
don't have control over that library tax increase. The two of us together, the local tax and the library tax is $311.99. Any of the increases that I show here are purely estimates. Well, except for
the proposed here, but the increase on the school that I have shown here is only based on an estimate of what I've heard in the press. The increase that I show here for the county and uh the county open space is based on
2%. I do want to point out that I estimated the levies for the county to go up 2%. But what does it show on the average home? It shows 2.5%.
So why is that, John? It's because we lost $54 million in net valuation taxable. So if all things had remained the same, if we did not increase taxes at all in terms of the the amount to be
raised, local taxes still would have seen about a $25 increase due to that loss of net valuation taxable. So to reiterate what we're looking at right now, what is proposed is $279.54
on the average home >> 65 >> I'm sorry >> which is 61500 615,000 >> Councilman Koviac. >> Yes. Thank you. I just want to point out a few things that I think are significant and maybe significant for
people to understand and maybe you didn't want to go into depth that I may have to and you'll have to correct me but one of the things you talk about is the net value taxable valuation taxable and that's basically our tax base.
>> Yes. our tax base, if you look at this, actually declined as you just mentioned. The pie from which we get our tax rates shrunk. And that's why you were saying everything's going to be a little bit more expensive. >> Correct. >> But it's even it's even more drastic
than that because of the library tax. Now, the library tax >> should if it was associated with the net valuation taxable should have gone down, but it didn't. it went up half a million dollars. Do you want to explain or do you want to take the chance of me
explaining because it's it's really significant >> uh made a significant difference in our taxes this year >> as it did last year as it did last year. >> It did. So the the library tax increase last year as well. Um but the library
tax calculation is based on the 2025 net valuation taxable which was the $10 billion resulting from the revaluation. So the the they don't use the current year NVT to calculate the tax the
library levy. They use the prior year. So, I'm assuming next year 2027's library levy could go down. Um, if if we're applying the third of a mill correctly, it would go down. But the
reason it went up is because it's now looking at a10 billion net valuation taxable from 2025. >> Do you want to throw in about equalization? Um, do you want I I think you you take that
want to go anywhere you don't want me to go. So So >> that has made it >> Councilman, can you talk into the microphone, please? >> Bigger part. >> Um, but that's also it resulted in an increase last year in the tax. I mean the the library is getting somewhere on
a on the measure of in combined in these two years like threequarters of a million dollars in additional revenues. >> That's correct. Yes. >> So that's one significant there's a there's another thing going on here that I I think everybody should uh should recognize is that what you call special
items on I think page five is things like pilots and other special taxes like the hotel tax, >> right? In some cases, some of these pilots are actually uh
reducing the revenue they're bringing into town, which of course is not what we wanted and not how they were sold, not how the pilots were sold. But so Prism Prism loss revenue brought in this year from the pilot is less than last
year. >> Correct. >> Rockspring Golf Club is a a significant reduction of more than $100,000. Correct. >> You pointed this out on sort of the uh the combined uh smaller stuff. But this
is the type of thing that where we want to rely on increases in the revenue. We're we're not seeing them here. And it's uh it's uh pretty disappointing. >> When I present finance part of my finance presentation, not just the
departments, we we're going to walk through all revenue. So, um, >> Kelina, did you have a question? >> No, I just wanted to know how we were going to if we're going to stay on track and let Mr. Datiniac go over page by page so we could Sorry. >> I wanted to get a sense of, um, you said
we lost 54 million in taxful. Could you give us an idea of where that came from? What that 54 million? >> It's primarily the Stonehill property. It was included on the tax roles for 2025 when it it probably should have come
off. It should have come off. Not probably. It should have come off. So, >> how did that happen? >> Yeah, >> I I don't know if it wasn't relayed to the assessor to to remove it from from our ratable base. Um, but it it wasn't
and then it was removed for 2026 rightfully. So, >> yes. Do you want to explain Do you want to explain how that might have happened in terms of the pilot that's over there? I'm sorry. Am I speaking? Go ahead. >> Oh, sure. Um, so the Stonehill property
is has a pilot. So, payment in lie of taxes. So, normally you can go a couple different ways. Many of the the pilots, they will have a land value that stays on the books and then the building improvement value is zeroed
out and it's tax exempt so that they pay land taxes which are significantly less than the improvement value and then they pay the pilot. Usually with those with those particular pilot agreements, the land taxes become a credit against the pilot. Um, in in terms of Stone Hill,
the entire property is taxexempt land and uh and improvements. Um, so it's not part of the ratable base, it's just they're paying a separate pilot fee. So,
>> okay, that's important for the public to understand because we've talked about this and the advantage or disadvantages of pilots and this comes up frequently and I think we need to understand what giving these pilots does to our township to our tax. >> So, so the pilot and and we could talk
probably all night on the pilot. Um the pilot the one you could say disadvantage is that um as tax rates increase they are somewhat insulated from those tax rate increases because the agreement
dictates what that they're going to pay. Um, so if you're in a municipality and you know tax rates keep going up 5 6 7%. They are insulated from those increases because they're only paying based on a financial agreement. So if you're if
you're part of the tax roles, you're you're along for the ride along with everybody else. Um, that's the one disadvantage you could say about a a pilot in terms of the the community. >> Counciloman Williams, did you have something? Yes.
>> Yeah. I wanted to know what was the only >> I'm sorry. >> Apologies. What 54 million is the total amount, but what is the amount attributable only to stone yield? >> It's it's like almost all of it. Um yeah, I I can talk to the assessor
whether for a breakdown, but it's almost all of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very important for the public to understand. >> And do we have any additional pilots that are impacting the budget in this capacity? You said it's almost all Stonehill, but do we have >> we don't have anybody else that came off
the tax roles this year that would that would impact us that way. Um the other thing with the Stone Hill pilot is that there is a redevelopment area bond associated with it. So part of that revenue that comes from the pilot is pledged to pay that bond off. Um so you know even if it generates X amount of
revenue, a portion of it is pledged to pay the bond. So it can't be used to offset taxes. What about what was presented to the public and to the council? How it was going to increase over time? >> It it it certainly should increase over
time, but again, there is an amortization schedule that goes along with it. I don't know if that was presented to the public. Um I only learned about it after I got here. um pretty sure >> that there was a redevelopment area bond that goes along with it and and we
actually in the past 6 months went ahead and and um retoled that amortization uh so that the there was a better impact for the the municipality because the initial payments were going to really eat into the revenue. So we were able to
work with our financial advisor and the legal team from Stonehill and and redo that amortization in a more favorable way. Only so much we can do. We have to pay it back. But uh >> so the same thing is also happening with
prison. >> They have a set aside on the revenues that we're using to pay off debt that they borrowed for. So those things are are drains on us. And uh yeah >> one of the many reasons why we need to be very very careful when we start considering uh pilots
>> pilots >> we're seeing exactly why we need to be careful significant revenue loss. >> Thank you. >> Um so do you want to bring up our public works now or or actually Oh go ahead.
I'm sorry. >> Yes. Um, I'd like to I I see members of our of our uh SABA in the audience and I'd like to know why they aren't sitting at the table. >> They're going to they're going to come up after we all ask all of our question.
>> Why aren't they sitting at the table and >> because that's the way we're doing it. I want to keep it streamlined and and flowing. >> Who decided that? >> That's the way we're doing it. Right, >> Council. So, I'm okay with that because last year we had 18 budget hearings and
no disrespect to the committee. Um, as long as they get I'm fine as long as they get their opportunity to speak at the end of each section and get chance to get their questions. But even us right now, according to the rules that my colleague presented to us on March 10th, we're breaking right now because
we're going on and on here. We should be letting Mr. Diniaak present to us have all our questions after the finance part and each section because we can't afford to have 18 budget hearings this year. I do not want to be threatened of a fine. So um and we need to absor we need to
absorb the information because at the end of the day we get the fine and this is on us. I just got stopped leaving my house. I apologize for being late, but a neighbor had asked me and was asking about the budget and and all the rhetoric that's on social media. So,
yeah, we need to do our jobs up here and ask get to ask our questions. And I appreciate and hope the and I'm supportive of the committee asking theirs when the time >> get after each of each of us. >> But I'm not done. And if we are going to talk about, you
know, these meetings last year half hour was about arguing about the process and what we're going to do. And at the end of the meeting, it was about another half hour of everybody trying to get their their calendars to line up. We need to sit down, get our information,
and make decisions in a formative and timely manner this year. And that's what I'm uh I'm I'm okay with council president decision. >> Yeah. So you're saying that they're going to have an opportunity to ask questions after each
>> after each of one of us have asked our questions then they'll have a turn >> after each section. >> After each section yes >> I just wanted clarity on what that means because you said after each page section >> after each department >> department is going to present then we're going to ask our questions and
then they will get the turn to ask their questions after each of us have had our turn. three presentations tonight how it went last time and we have >> I I don't want to discuss it any further. I've made a decision. This is how we're going to do it and we're wasting time.
>> Fine. I like I don't I I'm speaking here. >> Excuse me. Councilwoman Council Williams have the floor. Go ahead. I would like to actually make a motion that we codify the process that you're recommending and if we have a
majority vote then we move on. This debate back and forth over process is a waste of time. So my motion is that we accept your recommendation. Okay. >> That the CABAB will have their opportunity to ask questions after each presentation. >> I'll second that. >> All right. Let's have a vote.
>> Okay. >> 678. >> Sorry. Councilwoman Capalino. >> Yes. >> Counciloman Kovia. No. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> No. >> Councilwoman Williams. >> Yes. >> Council President Scar. >> Yes. The motion. >> So, let's move this. >> Okay. Good.
>> President, just a point of information. >> Sorry. >> Can you just let us know what we're doing since? >> Yes. We're going to go through the presentations. We're going to do each department. I had sent an email to Ron. We're going to do each department and then after each of the council people
ask their questions then CBAT will come up to the to the podium and ask any questions they have >> any any one they could come up if there's more than one who have questions but they will go after we've all had the questions. >> Okay. So councilwoman that's not what
you explained to us. You said the representative of the evening would come up like we did. >> They should all have an opportunity. They have different questions. are they going to have >> because they might not have planned for one person to do it. So we'll just let anyone from CBA who wants to come up to the microphone can come up
25 minutes added to our discussion if each of them have five minutes. >> I think it's important that they have an opportunity to speak with us >> and and again are you done councilwoman? >> Yeah. Just make a point. >> Is that going to be for moving forward?
>> I'm going to ask the committee if you're one representative like we did last year. I was understanding you sending one representative to each meeting and then you would the representative that came like last year would get a chance for the committee to ask your questions of the evening and and and and be done.
So this way um >> you know we because at the end of the day folks you know we got threatened with fines that we were late. be here all summer and I'll be gone uh two weeks in June and I I don't want to get a fine
nor do I want my colleagues uh to uh continue the process without me. Um so I appreciate it uh council president if we could stick to what we've been doing. >> Make a motion. >> I make a motion. >> Yes. Thank you council president.
>> I'm sorry for any public comment with when I have a motion on the floor. Counciloman. >> Yeah I but I want to hear what CPAP has to say. They may not have prepared today to have one person do it. And if they haven't, we want to hear from everyone. >> But there is a motion for >> Yeah. But I think we need the information that we need to follow
procedure, which is there's a motion on the floor. >> Yeah. Becca, >> look, I I as a council president have been told that >> it's it's up to me to determine how it >> follow how it goes. So it's I would like
to hear what CB has to say and how >> there's a motion on the >> that's fine but they you have to have a motion and a second and then a vote and then they can because someone already made a motion. If that didn't happen then they could have
>> Well, it's my prerogative. >> No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not a prerogative. >> Okay, that that was my understanding. So in fairness to them, in fairness to them, if they have not prepared for one person to to ask all the questions, I
really think we need to give each of them an opportunity. >> Well, we have a motion on the floor and you've already made it clear. So let your vote be reflected in your decision. So, my motion is that um the committee
has the representative ask the question after each section. I'm seconding that. >> Well, that's a different that's a different motion than can one or more people. I thought I thought the question is >> how many people from CBA could come
could come up. Isn't that what we were? My motion is that the representative of the evening come to the podium, which I was understanding was going to happen when you asked me if I'd be supportive of them coming up with their representative at the end of each
section. Um, so that's what I thought I was walking into here this evening. So if the represent I am supportive of that because I want the representative of the group to come up and be able to ask all of the groups questions after each each
section. That's that's what I was under the impression was going to happen this evening and that's how I'm going to support. That's my motion. >> We have to vote the vote no. Vote no. We could be here all night on on and never get the budget done. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> Councilwoman Castelino.
>> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Councilman Koviaak, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden, >> no. >> Councilwoman Williams, >> yes. >> Council President Scarpa, >> no. >> Okay, the motion carries. >> Okay. >> And I apologize to the committee, but Coun Council President, you got to
communicate this. You communicate to us one thing. You got to >> I said I knew that I would have them come up after I didn't see >> the representative. Yes, you did. So, >> put it in an email. >> I just would like to ask CB, have you prepared for one person to ask all of the questions to me? So, Council
President, I just spoke with the members of the Cabb in the audience, and I I will be prepared to ask questions on behalf of SBA. I do think anytime you make a departure, though, it should be clearly communicated to everyone how you're going to proceed. I just want to
make sure I'm understanding since it's going to be me. You want me to sit here, get up, and walk over to the podium every time you want the comments from Sabbad to be heard. Yeah. >> Then come back and sit down over here. >> Each section >> after each section, I mean, if you
prefer sitting, you can, but after each section, after each council person has asked their questions, then you'll have the opportunity to make any questions and comments. >> Fair enough. Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah, and I did communicate that to Ron in an email. >> I'm just not sure it was clear, but
okay. Sorry about that. >> Council President, I had was not involved in this discussion at all, and I want to put that on the record. I also want to counter your point, um, Councilwoman Castelino, we were threatened with fines twice. We never had any fines. There were no fines. And
the reason why our response was so late was because we got the budget so late. >> No, we had 18 meetings. Councilwoman >> and we also saved the taxpayers. Each and every taxpayer saved the budget. >> Let's move on. Mr.
I do have a question but I have more insinuation that fines was due to >> this is >> the insinuation seems to be that the the fines and the delays and the and the
extended time period that it took to pass last year's budget was due to CBA and that's not the case. >> No said no. Well, but that's basically what you're saying. >> Okay. So, let's just move on. Um, >> wait. First, but but here's the thing.
This is why again we're having the workshop and no disrespect to the public. We're supposed to be working in this meeting with us and the SBA is there to answer their question and comments, which I'm supportive of. What
slows us down is us. And I fully recognize that, Mr. Dovi. No, I'm not blaming on you, but if we don't get it together and get a a streamlined process, we're not going to get this budget done again. And so, we've had our budget and I know I call and ask
questions before I get here. I'm prepared tonight to move forward and hopefully only have one or two questions and we get what's scheduled this evening, but if we don't change what we've been doing, we're going to have another 18 meetings and we're going to be looking at September. >> And that's what we're trying to avoid.
So, let's let's just move forward. Mr. Diniac. >> Okay. So, uh I'm going to direct everyone's attention at home to uh the Township of West Orange website, westar orange.org.
And if you want to see our 2026 budget document, you can go to departments, click on finance, click on budget, and we have our 2026 proposed budget. Tomorrow we're going to post my budget
driver worksheet. And if we have any presentations in the future, such as PowerPoints or or anything from the departments, we'll make sure to get those uploaded and and and noted as to the date that they were shown. Um so
that, you know, we're trying to be fully transparent in terms of our our budget process and we will get those documents up to uh to everyone with with certain restrictions like names and all that sort of stuff. Um, so I'm going to click into the PDF document.
And again, if you're at home, you can download this. You can print it out. Uh, each one of these documents that we put up, we're putting up uh with the OCR um uh uh file formatting so that they are
searchable. Okay. Um, so we have the Department of Public Works today with us. Well, we're going to go through three departments for everyone at home so that they can sort of gauge uh maybe what time to listen in if they're particularly
interested in a certain department. We're going to start with the Department of Public Works. um anticipating maybe an hour and a half uh with the Department of Public Works and then Mr. Smold, are we doing police second? >> Fire. We're going to move on to the fire
department second and finally uh finish up with the police department. If we're unable to finish any of the departments tonight, um they'll be moved to the May 5th uh budget hearing and we will um you
know redo uh the agenda for for May 5th. So uh I'm going to scroll down to uh we will start with the salaries and wages for the department. Um we have a detail available on the website. I'm going to
go to it. Unfortunately, it's a lot of pages. Um, >> yeah. I think the >> So, I'll open up with the Department of Public Works. I'm going to be opening up and handling the um administrative components of it as the um interim
director and I have our superintendent, Mr. Lour. I want to introduce him here. He's recently promoted into the position. I apologize for the org chart because there was a question that was raised about I was having that done. I think I got to check and see if I had it finalized. I can get you a copy tonight. Uh there was a couple departments that
we had to re um uh um revise or and finalize. So I sent you some over the weekend. I will get I should get the rest of them to you by tomorrow. >> Can you give it to all of us, please? >> Absolutely. No, it'll be sent to everybody. It will be sent to everybody. So um and I will have that out for you um by tomorrow. If I have get if I have
it tonight, I will forward to you for your emails. So but u I just want to mention that. So, the Department of Public Works um every when you're talking into um the all the major departments um this is the the the strongest department and um the
Department of Public Works really proved themselves this winter um with the storms that we had um as evident by the um we see some of the unfortunate byproducts in in the budget, but also the amount of hours that was um was
logged in by our our professional professionals at VBW. And uh so and while we mentioned it earlier in the year after the storms, I I do want to take the time to recognize the fact that they that this this group of dedicated people went above and beyond this year more so than than they normally do
because we were faced with many challenges that we hadn't seen in in many years. And some quite frankly some of our um our employees were never experienced it before. So this was a new beginning, a new learning for them. And uh and they they learned quickly. So, we're very happy with the performance
they did. And with that, council president, we're ready to to start our presentation for DVDW. >> So, um before we introduce, uh Mr. Lour, I just want to start off I'm going to start off with the salary and wage uh portion. Um
>> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Go ahead. >> Thank you. Um when we are presented with the organizational chart, will it have years of service um in that document? Is it possible for us to understand years of service so that we can realize who
might be close to retirement? >> Actually if you look into the salary ordinance guys there the date of hires there is associated the date of hire employees inside your budget. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> We can we can provide the council with a column that has I think I it's there just hidden um their years of service as of 112026. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. Um so we have again available to the public uh a breakdown of what goes into the salary
and wage calculation um based on uh uh guidance from our legal council. We are not providing the names um as we have done in the past as not only myself but my predecessor has
provided in the past but we were it was too moody Joe um so we have listed by position a date of hire um I know it can be a little bit small if you're viewing maybe the zoom but we have a column with step and step
is important because we have salary guides for all of these employees based on um collective bargaining agreements that we have. We have a base salary column for any individual employees that might have longevity. We have uh their
longevity percentage and their calculated longevity amount and then a calculation of total salary and if they have a clothing allowance based on their union. Um, the one thing I do want to point out which I think is important to point out, sometimes we will fund what
we call vacant positions in our budgets. We currently um have an acting uh or interim uh superintendent of public works, director of public works. Uh our our business administrator, Mr. Smaldo, was filling in in that role. Uh but we
do have a budgeted amount in the amount of $168,000 in there for a a superintendent of public works. Um that was anticipating a hire in 2026, but that position is vacant. I know under name it would say
vacant, but because we blocked out that uh um I'm I'm sorry, not superintendent, director of public works. Uh on the next page, I apologize. director of public works is listed as vacant um for $144,827.
Pardon me for misspeaking. Um so that is vacant that is budgeted for u but there is no one currently filling that role in in terms of being compensated for it. So looking at the overall calculation
for uh 2026 and comparing it to 2025 in terms of base salary, we have an increase of $147,956 primarily due to some new hires and step increases. And then also we had a cola increase for all the unions listed there
of 3% year-over-year 25 to 2026. We have a decrease in longevity and that is due to uh an employee has retired in the previous year that had longevity. The overtime ask is for $175,000
more and that's based on uh the amount expended in 2025 and then what we have already experienced in 2026. and clothing allowance has a $2,800 increase. Uh again, based on the the
headcount. So all in all, the ask for public works is for salaries 3,335,81110, an increase over last year's budget of $316,42540. Do
>> we have any questions on SNW before I turn everything over? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Um, so the overtime, is that all snow related? Is that events? Um, what's calculated? Everything.
>> It's everything. Any anytime that there's overtime is calculated to that. Obviously, the snow events >> are the most expensive. Um, but there are times that DPW and again I have two individuals that could speak to that. Um, there's overtime worked for for
other things, you know, things outside here or um cleanups, leaves. Uh, >> how many vacant operator uh positions do you have open right now? >> We we don't have anything budgeted in those positions. We only have the vacant
director of public works. >> Okay. Well, budgeted. >> Maybe you might have it in the to0, but it's not it's not budgeted. >> Yeah, because I know we didn't fill some positions last year, so you're not going to fill them this year. So, that I obviously is going to would create
overtime when you're short staffed. Is that the or chart chart? >> Yeah, we there there was an org chart sent to you. >> We got on the email >> on yesterday for the DBW. There was one sent yesterday. You want to check your email for DBW. It's It's not a uh >> a notice,
but you should have you should have a copy of that in your email from yesterday. Sent this >> probably about 2:00 yesterday, I think. >> Yeah, there were some vacant position. That's why there's not vacant positions here. I noticed, but I on that email
that I read last night had vacant positions. So, your intent is not to fill those vacant positions at all with this bud current budget. You won't be asking for that, >> but you're asking for the overtime. >> The only vacancy that we have in here
and it's worth the 144,000 is that director of public works vacancy. So, you know, if you wanted to if you wanted to change that to a two drivers or something like that, you know, you could. But, um, when I went through this
budget, I tried to trim as much as I could knowing that it was a it was a a big increase. So, >> so, so the reality if we're not if we're not going to hire someone for the director to the end of the year, why is
it in there right now? So, we could pull that number one, unless do you need the drivers or the overtime is sufficient to compensate for the drivers. >> What's just >> or for the vacant position? >> So, first um I just I had I received the
updated version. So, you should be at the top of your emails if nothing. >> Okay. >> Um, so >> because you're missing quite a few positions. That's what I'm asking. >> Right. We have we have the positions. We need the positions. We have the drivers.
This is part of the driver part of the the driving of the overtime is that we didn't have these people in positions. We we've lost some through retirement. Some some actually left for various reasons. Um, and so we're looking to fill those positions, but knowing that,
um, that those positions weren't there, uh, the the CFO is looking to keep costs down. And so, um, part of our our understanding is that while we we would like to have these positions filled, if if they're not going to be filled, then that's the the cuts already made in
within here. Now, as far as a DPW director, um, we know that that didn't come to fruition this year. Um, so that that salary was left in there by the the by Mr. Datiniac. Um, and we know that we're not moving forward with that position right now because of the the
term limit on it. And um, as of now, I'm assuming the position as the director acting in that capacity or interim and Mr. Lour is running the day-to-day operations for us. Um, and I'm not receiving any additional compensation for that particular position. It's just
part of my roles and duties. But what the job of Mr. Lator was promoted. So, he receives a um a um a raise with that those responsibilities. >> So, I like to I'm sorry, I'm not done with my comments. And maybe to make it fair, maybe like I went first, we go
around the room. Who gets to go first next time down? So, so we all don't >> storm the gate here. >> Um so, no, because I like to propose that we take that position out of the budget. I make a motion to to take that out. It sounds like you're not going to
fill it and it sounds like the overtime's going to compensate for uh the other vacant uh issues that you have. So, >> no, no, no. Let's have discussion before we start making motion. >> Well, well, you still have to
>> Well, I'm going to make the motion so we could discuss it. So, if somebody wants to second, >> I would second it and we could discuss it. >> Well, >> so again, that's my pitch. I I just want the um hear from Mr. Lour, too. I think I appreciate both gentlemen being uh you
know stepping up for for the for the township and the budget crisis. True. >> So the director the director position no obviously it's not someone because we don't give you nobody wants to give a contract. So, and there's a new mayor
position obviously going to be uh open in the uh the end of the year or there's a race and so we're not going to be hiring that that position. So, I I really thought the position was going to be out of the budget. So, it's just a no-brainer for me to pull it and um you
know that will help us out right now with with what we're looking to do. >> And I would second that. Did you want to >> I'm I'm done with my comments. Thank you, >> Councilwoman Williams. >> Thank you. Um, so I'm looking at it from a different uh lens and perspective. I
agree that we should probably remove the supervisor or director of DPW position since we know we're not hiring that. I would like for us to eliminate the overtime. And so it seems that if we had more staff, then we could fill the
position and reduce the overtime. The overtime is paid at one and a half times salary. A salary is a salary. So it would save the municipality if we were able to fill a position as opposed to having to pay one and a half times what
that salary should be afforded. So that would be my recommendation that we consider doing that instead of paying overtime. >> I just would like to hear from Mr. Datiniac the other expenses that go along with hiring somebody like the pen, you know, retirement.
What What would you say? >> So great point. Um, so tacking on to the salary, you have to tack on 50% for fringe benefits, right? >> Um, we could get someone that takes family medical coverage,
uh, which, you know, we value at close to $50,000. Um, so just hiring someone, it may be a full year expense of like $75,000, $80,000. I doubt one person will remove 75,000 to
$80,000 worth of overtime. Um, and I also I don't know if it's short staffing that's causing overtime. I don't I mean I'd have to leave that to the the gentleman sitting to the right of me. But >> then can moving forward we start
segregating the the the cost of overtime so that when we're looking at this moving forward if we need to find solutions obviously so if it is being allocated towards snow removal leaf removal whatever the allocation is we
need to be able to understand that as well >> absolutely I would agree with that and I think we need more detail in all areas of all departments um in terms of things being cost centers and really understanding what is cost, what the revenues and expenses are of each and every department. Um, councilwoman, did
you have any Councilwoman say her name? She >> No, I'd like to I'd like to to continue with the motion that Councilwoman Castelina >> Okay. I just want to see if um Councilman Koviaak had anything he wanted to ask.
>> Well, I I sent 12 or 14 uh questions about public works. I don't know if now is is the time that you want me to talk about them. I'm I'm not really clear how we're going forward, but that's that's where I'm standing. >> But we're talking about just a motion on the floor. >> Yeah, we have a motion on the floor.
>> Motion on the floor. >> Ready to Yeah. >> This is to remove the direct positions for this year. >> Okay. Yes. For 2026. >> Councilwoman Castellino. >> Yes. >> Councilman Koviaak. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden.
>> Yes. >> Councilwoman Williams. Council President Scarpa. >> Yes. The motion carries. Okay. >> Okay. So, Councilman Kovak, did you want to discuss your questions or do you want to listen to the entire presentation first? >> No, it's whatever you guys want. You You
have the I have the com. So, >> I I would say if it's related to the salaries and wages, it's a good time to ask them now. >> Okay. I I like to hear from the director. I mean, the supervisor said >> director. Well,
>> just make sure you're speaking to the >> just just cuz well, we're having a conversation. We started a conversation about uh overtime versus hiring another staff and obviously you didn't put the staff in in the budget. You're Are you comfortable? Like I want to, you know,
you are the department head. Are you comfortable with that? Well, obviously I would like all the men that I I have that have, you know, are vacancies because just lifts the burden off of the rest of the workers. But I it most of
what we do the over it the overtime isn't guaranteed. We're we're emergency personnels or snow and leaf, you know, we want to get the leaves up. So there's 10 days in the budget for us to work six
days a week as opposed to five because we get that much more done. Uh some of the things that we get overtime for is a sore backup and three guys come in. That's all we need. We don't need another guy. We just need the three guys
that have to report. Tree comes down across the street. I have a fourman tree crew. poor guys come in unless they need support, but it's not it's not adding a man that that makes this job less
because I can pull from anybody. My guys can do just about every part of every job we do. So, it's it's, you know, it's just if if I have three tree guys and I need another guy to drive a truck, I get somebody that maybe not so acquainted
with tree work, but he can drive a truck. he could drive a tandem to all the stuff away. So ours is as is on call basis, not like the police or fire department where they may be running
staffing lows and they have to hire somebody just for that reason. We are we are emergency response barricades for a car wreck, speedy dry. Um, I help out. We pumped out uh Robert
Court on Easter Sunday. >> Yeah. >> 100,000 gallons of water and it was me and two sore guys. And I was the guy walking around in the basement in my waiters. >> So, it it's as as needed. We don't plan
anything around overtime. Uh, every once in a while, I'm sorry, every weekend, our infrastructure in our pump stations is so old that they have to be visually verified that the pumps are running.
Easter Saturday, pump station went down. So, Saturday and Sunday I was here, overflowed. Had to get it. We had to fix it. But again, as emergency calls, we do
There's not a time when, you know, I have a shade tree guy going, I want to go do some trees on Saturday. Doesn't work that way. Or put up street signs unless there's some kind of emergency that requires us to be there. Um, some
of the work we do do um painting and uh buffing the floors. Sometimes we have to come in on the weekends because the offices are busy during the course of the day. Can't paint a Can't paint a room. can't buff a floor, which is exactly what happened this past weekend.
We painted a couple of rooms, we buffed a couple of floors. Um, but again, it's not we do more with less. >> Whatever I have, we use, >> right? So, it sounds to me like you're saying the expense of having another
employee really wouldn't make a difference here in in terms of the way >> it wouldn't. Although it it's, you know, it's always nice to have five five sets of hands as opposed to four or three. Um, sometimes we have to beg, borrow, and steal. I have to take some guys from
the grounds crew. We're well verssed in in tree work, right? I need one of you guys to go here. Or, you know, I'm going to be tearing down two kitty parks. I'm going to need a couple of truck drivers from another department that isn't with
the grounds crew that you need to use. >> So something doesn't get done, but something does get done. One thing may not get priorities. Everything is a list of priorities. Bruce. >> So >> yeah, it's always nice to have a couple
of extra sets of hands. >> Can you finish? Because I think >> just just is was so is the big increase because of the the snow. That's why you bumped it up so much. >> I was here four days from the snowstorm. I didn't get home until Thursday.
Um, and that I still had to come back that afternoon. >> And you don't feel that? Um, I mean, you know, again, I I hate to predict because the here we were bailing school district
out this year. Um, okay, I'll leave it there. if that you could cut from that line. I' I'd appreciate it, but I'll leave that up to >> So, looking at your org chart, there's actually four vacant positions. Um, one
under masonry refuse refues, um, one under traffic and roads, there is one under sewers, there is one under
>> vacant grounds and >> one under trees >> and then one under trees at the very bottom. So five total >> five total positions and your feedback is that those five
positions don't need to be filled and that it would not have an impact on overtime. >> No. No. have an index. Again, they would just be they would be sets of hands to help out with sometimes unruly jobs. >> Okay?
>> But as as we've the way we work is we're we're we're short of one person in one staff, you just move somebody over. >> Okay? >> So, it's not a staffing thing because we're not held to any legal quota as to it's a matter of what needs to be done
at any given time. >> Thank you. Okay. Council, >> do you have a minimum hourly amount that is required when when a worker goes into overtime?
>> If it's a call back by union contract, if it's a call back, somebody's home sleeping and I got to go in, it's four hours. >> Is there And is that contract contractually obligated? Okay. >> That is contractual. >> When is that? When will those contracts
be renegotiated so that we don't have a 4hour minimum >> that out? >> Well, they would come up anytime we negot negotiate a new contract. >> So the the >> and when will that >> the ACME contract that that's covered under uh goes till the end of 2029.
>> Okay. is do you have any better breakdown of what is causing the overtime? Because my understanding is that our our your staff um only plows about a third of West Orange. So why was there so much overtime for snow plowing
when when your staff is only plowing a third of the township? >> There are there are currently 25 routes in the township of West Orange. So everybody gets service as as quickly as possible. Um the public works does 13
or no 10. We have private contractors doing 13 for one group and four for another. >> 13 routes. And how many routes were in total?
>> 27. 25 27. I I I didn't bring that with me. >> No problem. Thank you. I apologize. But every every um every employee is either in a truck or behind a snowblower. >> Okay. So, our our biggest increase was
in snow and we've got to figure out a way to cut this cost. So, a couple of questions. Is there some way that your staff and what do you need to gear up so that the township can be be doing more snow clearing rather than paying
Grabowski $575 an hour? >> Absolutely. That goes hand in hand with the five new truck drivers you can give me. That that would do it. That would do some that would put a dent into what we have to do.
>> Okay. So you just said before, so this would be a big change in terms of our snow capacity if we had more truck drivers. >> Absolutely. But again, I I work with what I have. >> The negotiation for uh the private
contractors came well before my tenure as the leader here. And uh I wasn't part of the contract negotiations or or the bid process. I I can only say that this is what I was left with on my doorstep.
And we only every every person that was a truck driver or above was out in the plow doing a route. I have 10 other guys that they don't have uh CDLs. They are shoveling. I have five for up the hill. I have five
for down the hill. Five guys. >> Do you have enough equipment if we had five more truck drivers? My understanding is at this time I'm waiting on trucks that were ordered two years ago. Takes it takes some time. I have three
trucks with snow package and I believe three more pickups with the snow package. >> What would it cost us to hire five more truck drivers or even three more truck drivers? >> Well, that would all depend on the whatever the starting salary is that you're going to you're going to propose.
>> Okay. What is that? >> If we hire, you know, if we hired five, and mind you, we have nine A-line service trucks and I have to rent three herk rentals. The herk rentals are sometimes an
A-flight truck, sometimes they're spares because my trucks are antiques. They're 30 years old >> and keeping them on the road is is very hard. >> Costly >> and they're very costly. It's absolutely very Sometimes it we have to come to the
point where you got to stop bitting things with a a band-aid. Say, you know what? This is done. >> You know, it's time for surgery. >> And uh I have probably five trucks that
are 30 years old or older. Um, the hills aren't kind to the trucks. You know, the the drivers are as good as I think anybody out there. We we do a pretty good job, I believe. Um, but
again, to get more either get more trucks and get more drivers. Otherwise, if we get the trucks and we don't get the drivers, trucks are going to sit. >> Okay. So, how much would it cost us to get, let's just say, if we started out with three more truck drivers, that
would certainly help with this $2.2 million excess. >> So, um, we've been hiring truck drivers at typically step two, step three is is what we've been offering. Step three currently is $61,75.
Uh, and then they're offered a full benefits package. >> Okay? after two months they can get health benefits. Um so you're looking at like salary and fringe in the neighborhood of like $90,000 $95,000
>> and that full benefit package. Um does that include longevity? >> No. >> What does that include? >> No, that includes uh health benefits. So uh medical prescription, dental, they pay based on the current chapter 78 tier
4. So, uh, up to 35% of the calculated cost of of the medical and prescription, and then they pay a set amount for dental, which is a small amount. It's a pretty cheap plan relatively. And they get pension. >> And then they get a pension. Is the Is
the pension contractual? >> It is stat the pension I I'm sorry, I didn't mean pension. I meant >> um the no 457. No, 457 is not offered to uh the ASME uh union is it's where our truck drivers
>> so are found. >> That seems like a a pretty good deal that say even round that up that that we spend $300,000 to help us save plus the plus the rental of trucks, which we as a municipality
pay a lot less than what what Growski would pay to rent their trucks. um that seems like a very good investment to help us deal with this problem. >> So yeah, we would have to purchase the trucks. Um like you said, yeah, >> initially bring in more staff, continue
to rent the vehicles as we need them, and make a make a significant dent in what just happened this year and what could happen next year. And so that's that's one thing I would like to to see if you know I could
propose that. The other thing is I'd like to to know is can we can you take on any more routes right now without doing this? You have 10 10 routes right now. >> Absolutely not. >> Okay. So can we get other vendors? Can
we can we go out and and do a bid to bring in other vendors because we have one vendor who's half the price of the other vendor and and I know we have hills. I know it's a difficult town, but there have got to be other vendors who are cheaper. >> Sorry.
>> So, we put out the bids every year and they respond and and we we re we award based on the responses. We don't tell them what. We could look to change the numbers, how much we're going to charge, but the problem is I don't know if we're going to get those numbers. We could we
could certainly speak with the the purchasing agent when this contract year is over and rebid it in a manner that's consistent with lowering the costs. >> Are we obligated to continue with Shower and Grabowski till the end of the year?
>> I think it was June. It was a June. It was a all I can say is it was a June negotiation. >> Okay. So >> I don't know if it's June to June. >> We'd have to look at the idea. >> Okay. So I would like to request that we throw wide net out there and we get in
get in bids and that that we not restrict it to only one or two or three options that however they respond whatever will work for us to save us money. Um, and I'd also like to propose that we add Would that satisfy you to add three three truck drivers. Would
that also help you? >> Oh, I'll take anything I can get. >> Okay. >> I'll take anything I can. >> So, to me, this seems like seems like a savings, >> but they'd have to be CDL, right? >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Counciloman Cesley, are you done? Councilwoman, >> I I just have a question on that. So
just so >> happy to this discussion >> just so you understand too anybody we have been hiring lately has been a CDL driver so that this way we we can make them multifunctional so that that's what we've been doing. We don't we don't we're not hiring labors per se.
>> If I could still hold the floor >> for one more second. We've been we've been hiring at at step two and three. Why aren't we hiring at step one? It's for competitive because our our salary range is so low. We were we had
tried for the longest time. We just couldn't compete. People are going elsewhere. They're they're going to the vendors. We're hiring. >> Um so we had in order to be competitive, we had to hire that that nostep ranges. >> Yes. Council. >> So, so I had asked you a while back and
we talked at prior council meetings. So I believe we do these contracts in the summer and what happened last year, Mr. um um with Mr. Reynolds is we you know we kept tableabling them and then they some
vendors weren't available. So, I know that it's time sensitive when we put the bids out, number one, but I've also asked I know the school board is interested because I had spoken with the superintendent and and two of the board members. Is it possible to do a share
service agreement with them because we handled it anyway for them this year. So, maybe that may be AVID changes to uh >> I will discuss with our QPA and and I I will reach out to Mr. more to see if there's something we could do together.
>> Yeah, cuz then now's the time. I mean, now's the time is when you you plan all this. And again, so I don't know if it's necessary to to to move from the overtime salary at this point or let them vet out what they're going to what their needs are. And by the time we get
done amending this budget, you could give us a recommendation. So, we're not telling you how much to put here or there, but you could come back to this category and we could have a more thoughtful conversation when you vet out your numbers.
>> Councilwoman, I believe I'm aware that I am aware the board of ed is in negotiations with Grabowski already to take over for them next year. >> Don't they have to bid out? I think at this point we
>> they do from what I >> you know I would just say right now I if they're if that's something to the board we're not >> we're not 100% sure on that. I would I would leave that conversation now. Let me let me reach out to Mr. Moore and get a better idea of what's going on. >> Yeah, they need to get out cuz cuz
that's why they had the situation. They turned down a high bid. >> So I would hope they rebid it out. They probably did. Again, Councilwoman, you know, I don't know the particulars what went on there. I I don't think it's fair for us to talk about at other agencies. >> Sure. >> I I think it would be best for us to to
>> Not a problem. >> Uh so, Council President, if we we actually we brought up a lot of great points. Um I just want to go back to a few of them. Um Council Money, you said cast a wide net. I think that's >> that's that's a great point. It's important that when we go out to bid, we
get as many submissions as we can because the, you know, the more the more bids, the the more competition, usually the lower your prices. So, I I I think that's a great point. Try to get it out as as as far as we can. Obviously, within reason. You know, we're probably
not going to get a vendor in New York State that's going to send plows to West Orange if we were going to stay going that route. Um, and then for the overtime, uh, I have up on the screen here, this is through payroll number
eight for this year. Um, we've already expended $367,000 in overtime. So, >> the the damage is pretty much done. Yeah, this is this is really snow. All snow. Um, so the damage is somewhat
done. So, I don't see any room to cut overtime for this year, but I think the conversations that we're having are important for the township going forward. I mean, please don't snow until 2027 or actually just never snow again. Um, but
>> it it's important to start talking about this because I think we've seen that when we have these significant snowfalls or even just the volume of snowfall that we've had, >> our current model is extremely expensive um and is probably not working for us
financially going forward. >> It's not. >> Can I just ask what percentage of the overtime is for the snow? Is it 80%? Is it 70%? Can you give me an estimate? >> I couldn't tell you. >> This is It's probably 80% of this
number. Yeah, maybe had a little bit of leaves left over, but >> yeah, we had a little bit of leaves and we did have two force main breaks right after the snow stopped. >> So, we were doing overnights uh >> repair sewage pipes.
>> Yeah. have a mechanism in place for you to document the categories for overtime. >> Um, we have the capability to do it. We could we could code it. Um, but we we
haven't we haven't done that from a public works perspective like we don't code time separately for for different types. Um, but we could look into it and we even go back to the start of 2026 and see if we can >> that would be helpful. understand the the sewer problems. I think that would
be very helpful. Councilwoman, >> um Mr. Lour, we we we have spent um $367,000 and you're saying the majority of this money or possibly 80% was for snow. >> How much overtime do you expect for leaf
collection? beef collection historically has been um 10 Saturdays at eight hours per man
usually two crews roughly 10 men crew >> no no five total total of 10 men usually two crews everybody doesn't want to be working on Saturday >> and That's 4 hours each minimum like you
said. >> Well, it's we run an eight we run an 8 hour day. >> Is that a six day work week or a five day work week? >> Five day work week and we work on Saturdays with at least two crews. Sometimes one, but at least two crews.
>> Get them all picked up >> of five men per crew. >> So, you only work on Saturdays during leaf collection period. Is that correct? Or you always work on Saturdays? No, it don't always work out. >> All right. >> Special event. Special events.
>> Okay. And um >> when you clarify, so you know, leaf pickups are just not dedicated to Saturday. These guys are working on leaf pickup Monday to Friday. Also, it's not a matter of we only do one one day a week a leaf pickup. It's six days a week. So that's so it's it's not as if
like we could say, okay, we won't we'll we'll re rededicate our some of our crews on Monday. They say, "Okay, you're not working Monday. You're working Saturday." It's not that. It's they're working they're working Monday through Saturday. >> I understand. >> You want to clarify for the record.
>> I I understand that. But I'm still looking at a big difference between $550,000 in overtime, $550,000 overtime which you requested and what has actually been spent which is 367. So, I would like to know if if there is
a room to reduce this by at least 50,000 with the with the um I guess promise or or I I would hope some support to hire you more crew to hire you more truck drivers.
>> You need that money. I was going to my my concern would be to take that out of the budget >> when we really don't know because it's up to the administration to do hiring. That's a projection that we can't predict. Um we don't know that there'll be people that will come in for these
jobs for this salary. We've tried to hire in the past and it hasn't panned out. So if he needs the money so that we can do the work, I would rather us be able to reallocate it toward the end of the year as opposed to cutting it from
the budget. And then he clearly at 367,000 and it's just the end of April. That that's concerning. So >> and and you I don't think you were in the council at the time, but when we when we met last year for the budget, one of the things we did discuss was
that we cannot predict the weather. Um and um last year in September we were talking about snow and we and we wound up getting walloped in in se in December and January and February um like we haven't been in in probably 6 8 10 years
whatever the the number is. Um the other thing is the leaves did not cooperate this year. they they were staying on the trees for a long period of time and then with the the unanticipated snow all of a sudden that those leaves were underneath the snow which also led into our long uh
our long snow removal and then we had to clean up leaves in mid January we got a warm spell. It was just it was just unfortunately we that's the that's the difficulties to try and to to to manage the uh the weather related work. So the other concern with the leaves is
have we evaluated whether or not bag leaf pickup would be a less costefficient process than leaving them on the curbs? >> We have not done a formal um but that that's something what we could look into. I know that was um um a suggestion
from somebody we uh spoke with recently um and we can we could certainly look at an analysis of doing it in the past. I know it wasn't and I'm I'm going to leave the operations to Mr. Laapour here, but the um some of the concerns we had was is how we pick them up, how
where do we get them and things of that nature. So, and I I think I'd rather leave this question. >> Are you finished? >> Check up is better. >> If we could maybe do and look in since we're in the rebidding process now, see if that's an opportunity that would
provide savings. Obviously, we won't be approving this budget much sooner than June. So, if we could have that information expeditiously, that might help us reassess and then really look at some real cuts. >> We should have that. Councilwoman's been asking for that for a while.
>> Ruden. >> Yes. I would I would like to make a different proposal. Um, we are one of the last municipalities in our area that still collects leaves and this causes an enormous expense to our taxpayers and it
causes an enormous amount of work for your crew. You just outline out outlined how much you you spend just in the in the fall. Well, you didn't say exactly the numbers, but two crews of 10 men,
eight eight hours on Saturdays. We can stop doing this and still add men for snow and for other and and for other projects if we just stop the leaf collections. The other municipalities around us don't do this. The reasons to
cut this is that it would be a savings of more than half a million dollars in terms of our own budget if we stop doing this. It is environmental insanity to continue doing this when everybody else either mulches their leaves or their
landscaper deals with deals with the situation a and residents who do their own lawn can bag it up and bring it over to the recycling center. So I would like to propose that this year we start something new and stop the leaf collection. The leaf collection is also
very very dangerous and it caused us a big problem when there is snow and it also causes flooding. And I talked to a resident the other day who because there were leaves out in front of his house, the leaves pushed held back um rain and his entire basement flooded. Never
before happened. It happened because leaves were left on the street. So, here's an easy fix. We're in dire straits. We need to save money. Let's stop removing the leaves. And I know it's something that we all need to get used to, >> but I think it's time. >> I would agree. And it backs up the
sewers. Um, did you have >> Madame Clerk, would you be so kind as to do what you normally do when I ask, which is poll our neighboring communities and see who is actually doing relief pickup. >> Okay. >> And who's not. >> Sure. Corona has it.
>> We'll ask our staff. >> Yeah. I think a real savings. >> We'll just go ahead. >> Okay. So I would like to make that proposal that we cut out leaf collection going forward and we start right now.
>> Yeah. Councilwoman Castle. So I hear you and I think it is a good recommendation but again you know we have these conversations and we're at the budget hearing and
you know I know we were absent with the administration uh coming here. These are things that should be already vetted out before when we get the budget. You know again I'm not going to hold up the budget for it. So, if we can at the very
least get a couple plans back from DPW um to consider these kind of proposals. I mean, are you recommending that we you're not making a proposal to cut the overtime today? Because I would just recommend to leave it and we come back
to this. We don't close DPW out today. If you come back with some recommendations, >> I'm asking Mr. Jatiniaak, what's your thoughts on this and our timelines of what we what's realistic of what we can do at this point in time? >> I wouldn't recommend cutting the
overtime. Um, again, I think damage is already done and without a clear plan that would say we would eliminate the 10 Saturdays this fall. I think we're still going to have overtime. I think even if we went to the process of of picking up
bagged leaves, we still would have some sort of overtime because we'd be running trucks on on the weekends and have crews picking up on the weekends. >> And and just one last point. Um so so we talked about staff. So again, I want you
to think because even if we hire staff at 61,000 plus the benefits, you probably don't need to hire them and get them uh in place till probably October. So that you know, so you're not looking at the 90 to 100 or whatever 150,000.
You would only be looking at a couple months. And being that we're trying to do zerobased budgeting, I mean, is that is that a possibility that if you decide to rent more equipment that you're able to budget it for those couple months
that you needed in the budget and and be able to implement that? >> Getting into a what if, should we, could we? We we we don't have the answers for you. So, let us put this together for you. >> Yes. >> Because it's just, you know, you're asking us a lot of things to say, can we, could, should we?
We really don't have that concrete evidence answer for you right now because I can't I can't give that to you without looking into all the things that you're asking. >> All right. So, you have everything we So, you're going to talk to school district. You're going to look at the snow plow doing the snow plowing recommendations, the try to get to the
leaf the leaf uh proposals. Uh look at that and then come and come back to us because I don't see any need to keep harping on this right now. I think they heard us and they'll have to get back to us and then we could >> move William and then it's up to the
administration. >> So I I just wanted to affirm and thank you for clarifying the three options. So one is school district shared services. >> Yes. >> One is leaf bag pickup
>> and one is eliminating leaf pickup completely as an option. That's >> just cutting it completely out of the budget. That is a recommendation. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying it's going to work and I'm not saying you support it. I think we need to come back with your
professional um recommendations and see if that makes sense. Again, we're just the elected officials coming up with suggestions on how to make this a lighter burden. >> And there really was a fourth then if you're adding that line, >> the hiring hiring and the new hires. >> Okay. And the rental the rental cost.
>> Yeah. and and equipment >> for the snow. Is it feasible, easy to rent equipment or is it hard to find? >> We've been renting from Herk Reynolds for the last five years. We rent usually rent one more loader and three snowplow
trucks. >> Council Moviac, I think you had a question. >> Yeah, if if I could. I've got four questions. I've been holding my hand up and I thought I got recognized and then everybody else answers. Could you just explain to us, including the council, what your process is for people to be
asking questions? I thought you said it was just going to be one person at a time, but it's like a pingpong uh game here. What What's the process? >> Raise their hand. I acknowledged. I just saw your hand now. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> You've acknowledged me before, but not asked me. So, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing something wrong. That's all.
>> No, go ahead. >> Okay. So I want to throw in another mixture which is we just approved a grant to look at not a grant but a a joint accept a grant to talk to East Orange about how public
works the two sides could work together. So I think you need to throw that >> building study which we just entered into that >> just entered into that agreement by resolution from the council. So that's that's in the process right now. Millennium is is researching it. So that's and that and I believe they told
us that that that analysis is going to take over a year. So it's just uh but we're but we can include that that's going to be part of the information we're going to share with them because we have to speak with Millennium to get that information. So we can add that into the into the uh into the into the
the grant the study the feasibility. >> So I just want to make sure I get these numbers right. Last year, our budget for overtime here was $375,000. We spent another $150,000
last year over budget, $522,000. We raised the we increased the uh budget this year by 175,000, almost 50% more. And yet of that 550,000, we've already
spent 367,000. And so essentially, if we wanted to meet the budget, we only have another $133,000 of overtime to do both the the leaves and whatever early uh >> snows >> snowfall that comes. Is do I understand
that correctly? >> Correct. Mhm. >> Okay. So, I I think we're potentially cutting it close. So >> we are okay. >> And and the and the other thing I want to just bring up because this goes back to my private sector work. What we're
talking about here is we're trying to figure out what all the potential costs are with all the potential variations in the private sector. We would build a model. we would build a model with all of these inputs, all these factors, and
try to figure out where the sweet spots are. But it doesn't sound like we're doing that. And I'm not blaming anybody. This this not an easy thing to do. But we've got all of these factors in in in public works where you're talking about,
Mr. Lator, 30-y old trucks, and we need to figure out what the real cost is to keep those 30 those 30-y old trucks running. we got to figure out where the sweet spot is to hire people and and all of that. And I think I I think Mr. Tiniac, you've done some wonderful
modeling and uh spreadsheet work. So, if if you could find some time or find somebody who could could help you do that, it would be a whole lot easier for us to answer the questions and how to fit it into all of these different ideas uh uh that we we don't have that information on now. So, I would
recommend a model and as soon as possible. Thank you, Mr. Fuzz. >> How feasible is it to do something like that? Mr. >> I I agree. It's it's it's not a solution that we're going to come up with here tonight. Um and you're right, there is a
lot of moving pieces to it. Um we for me looking at public works and and we look at hiring new people, but we don't have the minimum staffing issues that we would have with with public safety. So, it's not like as as Mr. Lour said
before, if if someone's out, we don't bring someone in to fill in. We don't have to do that. So, we have to look at we're bringing in new people to replace outside contractors if we're talking about cost savings. Well, what happens if we hire seven drivers and I go ahead
and buy seven trucks and then it doesn't snow for four years? And you'll go, why is the budget so high? Why are we spending on all these drivers? Because as we see in in the steps, you know, you may be hired at step two, but every year
until you get to max, that salary is going to go up. So that carrying cost of that employee is is really going to increase. So we have to look at beyond just snowplowing, what else is that employee going to do? or you know we
just take our chances with outside vendors and in the good years where we don't have much snow you know there's some savings and in the bad years well have we done a cost analysis to see where we've even landed over the past five years whether contracting it out or
doing it in house is the better option do we have any maybe not five years but since you've been here >> no we haven't but I mean just back of the napkin you look at this here and you go, "Oh, you know, it was a disaster having an outside vendor and nothing
about their work just financially it was so expensive." Um, but you're right, like we haven't looked at how many drivers and we have to be honest with ourselves. How many drivers do we need and how many trucks do we need to replace
two vendors? >> The two trucks that we ordered that are we're waiting for that was done with the 2020. We we we haven't we haven't ordered any trucks yet. Um we've talked about or do we have a truck >> city? >> Years ago. >> Oh, so we still haven't gotten it years
ago. Okay. Yeah, I thought you were talking about new orders. >> Last time we approved one >> that Yeah, I was going to say that was the last time we approved a >> we still haven't gotten >> and we still waiting. >> It It takes years from ordering to
getting them. Um just uh food for thought. The vehicles that were ordered, they're like a Swiss Army truck. >> So, they do everything. >> They do they have a they have a hook lift where when you're ready to do snow, you
pull the spreader up. When you're out doing other things, as fall, picking up brush, whatever else we have, pull on the dump body. So, there's actually two different bodies for these trucks. Uh we just we did just get a a chipper truck.
Same idea. It's a 550 smaller smaller dump truck. It has a spreader and a chipper box. So when we're out doing trees, we pull the chipper box up. If we're in the middle of a nightmare winter like we were this year, the chipper box didn't come up
back on the truck. We kept the spreader on. But they're 10 minutes. If you decide one morning you got to do this, it takes 10 minutes, >> right? Um, and school of thought in in
in my work is every five years you need to increase your fleet and weed out the stuff that I have with antique plates on it >> because and there's no, believe it or not, parts are very scarce for F700s,
uh, GMC 8500s, which is a similar truck, just a different brand. Um, so the days of buying these humongous trucks to do what we need to do. We don't need to do that as much anymore, even though we have some routes that are
much bigger than others. And and certainly the Walker Road is a hill. Um my my idea is to, you know, look forward and start planning on five years five years down
the road, new sweeper, five years down the road. Um, uh, garbage trucks. My garbage trucks are 30 years old. I remember getting them when I was just a week hot here. So, it's, um,
we want to be, you know, penny, you know, dollar smart, maybe penny stupid. Um, but we we've gone away from getting what we need as we move along. It's we don't have to get
We didn't have anything to stop. I just have a quick question. So, >> yeah. Are >> are you allowed to purchase any of the the uh trucks for the Franklin Avenue uh location through the community block
grant dollars? Because because we bought a van for the church, why can't we buy ourselves a a truck? >> We we could certainly put them for the CDBG uh branch. A lot of our awards tend
to do with infrastructure. They go to engineering because of just this the amount of money that's available. We can ask to put in we can suggest it. I have done that >> in in my previous roles for other vehicles and they don't always they're not always the priority within the
crane. So we we can request it. We can ask it but it doesn't mean that they'll they'll give us that just because we said we need. So >> the location is is in the area. But it's in location the area, but I I like I said, I asked for specific equipment for
certain areas of of in the CDBG zone, and it's just those aren't always the priority, and we seem to be successful with our infrastructure with the grants through directoral. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To add one more wrinkle to Councilman Koviaak's ask or and and then this is a
good ask. I mean, I do believe that we need to really look at this in depth, but we also don't know what we're doing with DPW. Um, so if we're going to be looking to add trucks and manpower when we're not really sure what we're going to do with that site, that that's that's another variable.
>> What's that >> in in in in that plan? So, um, again, ordering trucks though, as we heard, can take years. Um, we do work with Enterprise. Um, we've been expanding Enterprises
role in the municipality and um, they are able to source trucks a lot faster than some of our um, just New Jersey based vendors that we've used in the past. So, you know, that that does help us. Um, but yeah, that that's a variable
we have to consider is what are we doing with DPW? Um, because obviously we don't want to buy trucks and then we don't have anywhere to park. So, wouldn't it make sense at this point to not talk about ordering trucks, but talk about how what other ways we could
save money? For the time being, you're okay with renting if we need for snow. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. But more manpower would help you when there is a when there is snow or for any any other any other project.
My opinion though is that a very we see how significant this is to the township's budget. Um a a serious study I think is needed. >> Um and and I think we all need to
>> get behind this because it's >> it's going to determine what we do in the future concerning snow removal and we can put leaves into that as well. I think it's all somewhat related. Is that something we bid out >> or is that something we do in house? The study
>> I think we try to see if we can do it in house >> some in house and see what the challenges are and stuff. But uh but I I will say this is one of the conversations both John and I and I have had especially when the second storm is coming through. Um, you know, we we realize that the just the costs and
everything else that we're we're we need to evaluate a little bit better on this because it it is expensive and and one of his concerns is the vendor costs, you know, and getting back to some of our routes. So, >> but if we do have to pay for a study like this and it's 15 20,000,
um, I think that would be money worth spent considering the the $2 million. Not saying that and I don't have anybody in mind or anything like that, but I'm just saying if we are unable to do this successfully in-house, it's it's
definitely worth the the cost to the taxpayers for a long-term more financially viable plan to to do these services, >> which was also what when when we came to you about the um the feasibility study
with the city of East Orange was those are some of the thoughts we had is how do we how can we do we have certain equipment they they they possess that we possess that they could use and and vice versa and things of that nature. And >> um one of the things we did speak about was that this past winter we actually uh
relied on East Orange to loan us a couple piece of equip because two of our trucks just >> failed and they and they bailed us out basically, you know. So um so this is something that we'll look into. >> Would that be part of like a forensic audit? I know we're looking at doing a forensic audit. Will any of that?
>> No, I don't think this would be part of a forensic audit that that's too much of like a managerial decision. They're not going to be looking at that. Um I mean, if there was something like that they found that, you know, hey, you're recording your overtime three times the amount, not one and a half, that would
be like, you dummies, you made a big mistake. But I don't think anybody's going to come in and say, well, you know, maybe you should have hired more drivers and got trucks instead of doing this. This this is purely managerial. it's operational. Um, you know, just
again thinking we have a great group behind us, lit literally behind me. Um, that that could be an area that they help us look at, you know, involving them in more than just, you know, uh, the the budget adoption. Again, up to
the the council because they they are your advisory board. Um, but you know, we have a lot of intelligent people in this room and I think working together we could come up with a with a great solution. I mean, I would like to say I would do it all by myself. There's just
simply too much to do. And I would love to be the hero, but I I know I hate using the term bandwidth. It's cliche, but I don't have the bandwidth for this. >> Um, >> inventory somewhere. >> We we have an inventory for Yeah. for
insurance purposes and um >> yeah, >> but like with replacement costs and all that, I don't know if we're >> we don't we don't have that current. We have our fleet inventory, we have the age and everything else with them, but we don't have a replacement cost. >> Yeah. As far as like a true asset
management of and I mean we want to we want to do this for everything. And I think um uh director Carbalo is probably going to talk about in the very near future um the water sewer infrastructure
uh mapping. Um you know that that's an important asset that obviously causes us issues all the time. >> Right, Councilman? >> I was just going to say we've also just entered into a a debt management plan that's going to limit our borrowing on
an annual basis to $5.5 million. So, I I don't think we should spend too much time thinking about buying these huge pieces of equipment. It's just >> I would agree. >> Maybe we get one maybe we get two over five years, but we're we painted
ourselves in a corner with the debt and I think we need to change our way of thinking uh going forward. >> Sure. I that that's a great point and I'm I'm going to turn it back over to to to Mr. a tour very briefly, but I I think we can also look at the smaller
body trucks um for snow plowing. I I don't think it's a given now that you have to get the big Mac trucks, right? >> That's exactly what I stated about 15 minutes ago. The new the trucks that are switchbacks are fits,
>> come with four-wheel drive. They're easy to drive. They can make our hills. We certainly did it with five of them during the course of this winter. >> Long as you keep up with the snow, size of the truck, doesn't matter. That's why
we have so many rats. >> Very few people can claim that, you know, somebody's first and somebody's lasting because there's somebody in almost every section with 10 or 12 streets, you know, is there's somebody there
dedicated to their plow. that that's how our routes are set up. >> Um we certainly we can ex we had to shrink our routes at one point and go to to uh contractors
because we just didn't have the amount of people through attrition. We went from 63 people when I was hired down to 23. That's quite a bit in 40 years. >> Crazy. So, you know,
so yes, Mr. Denniac is right. We can do it with smaller trucks and we can get more out of them. They're a little easier to work with, you know, but the big trucks, they're they're they're going away at the dinosaur because they're just so
old. >> How long would it be before we were able to get a fleet asset report? a complete asset report. I have a list here of all the >> vehicles and equipment we have that we
we service whether it's your mechanical or or utilized during the course of it. >> And so can we also segregate that repair list with that so that we know what we're spending on what trucks? So, if we are continuing to spend a tremendous
amount of repairs on the older trucks, we can figure out whether or not it makes sense to >> rent them >> um get those off of our >> you know, trade them in, sell them, whatever the process is. >> I think we track all that data with Enterprise, right?
>> Only up to 5. Only up to 550s. >> Okay. anything above a 550, you know, a loader back hoe, the F700, the garbage trucks, the Vner truck, the tree truck doesn't have anything to do
with the enterprise. >> We would have to add those and and sort of compile that data separately. Um, but as Mr. Tour said any any vehicle under an F550, right? >> 550 and below. >> Um we track the the maintenance on all
of those vehicles individually. >> Enterprise if we're renting it through Enterprise. Correct. >> Even even trucks that we don't rent through Enterprise, they're tracking our our maintenance. That's part of a separate maintenance package that we have with them. >> Councilman, did you have a question?
Yeah, I just wanted to we have a couple things that we need feedback from you on which is um removing the leaf collection um if how we can do that and what that would save us. Um and I I just think
that we should move on do the rest of the budget until we have until we have that feedback from you. >> Yeah. So that >> and so to to move on to page 129, >> Council Mobia. >> Yeah. I was just about to say I've got about a dozen questions that I submitted
uh before the meeting. I was hoping that would like speed things up. I I just want to have an opportunity to maybe try to bring those up at some point. That's that's all >> you want to just let me know with by like this when you're >> I'm ready now. I'm ready now. Well, they should be ready because they have the
questions and Go ahead. >> So, uh we're moving now into the It's zoomed in a little bit. Okay. Um the operations budget for public building operations and maintenance.
>> Get you at the end at the end of the section. >> Councilman, I guess. >> I'm Yeah. Councilman, did you want to ask your questions now? >> Yes. I'll I'll start on page uh 243. There's a janitorial contract uh last year was budgeted $74,000. We spent uh
less than $59,000. We've got the same $74,000 proposed in the budget this year. Uh I just wanted to find out if there was indeed any reason to expect that even though we only we spent less than $59,000 last year, why we would spend the whole $74,000 or whether we
should uh cut it closer to what we spent last year and and book the savings. So, so our contract with the uh the previous janitorial service expired I think it was March 1st or February 28th. Uh and we just hired we had to go out to bid
because uh the company that we had hired we wanted to um use the option to hire them again for another year and they just said that they didn't make enough money um and it wasn't cost uh efficient for them. So we had to rebid and we went
out and so the the new company is was awarded and I think that's around that that figure or so to uh to keep them keep that new company in service. They just started literally five six weeks ago. Um so we um they they just that's
what they and that was the the best bid that was the most responsible bid because I think the next closest bid after that was about $100,000 >> to clean >> clean up. It's not just one building. That's that's it's all our buildings around the town. So So
>> So there's also library included. Correct. >> No, the the public the public area of Ten Rooney was included including our tenant on the second floor, but the library itself, no, they have their they take their own their own in within their own facility. >> But we do all the common areas and
whatever else is not rented by the library or used by the library. >> Go ahead, Councilman. So, also on page 243, there's a a maintenance budget uh for all buildings. It was uh >> 143. >> I don't page 243. >> 129.
>> Oh, you're >> Councilman Kovak is is is referring to the the pages that the council received where it was the four 429 page packet. For everyone at home, we're on page 129. No, no, he's he's actually doing what's online. >> Yeah, the bills in
>> He's doing online. We have 129, >> right? He's he's looking at it online. >> No, what's online is page 129. What he's looking at is what was given to him in the uh >> voices >> in the share drive. Yeah. >> It's it's okay. I'll I'll refer to the page that the public sees, but I know
exactly what you're talking about. >> Okay. So, it was budgeted last year for a little over 58,000. Uh we wound up spending a little bit over 527,000. Uh, we've actually reduced the budget slightly to 505,000
this year. And I'm trying to figure out because if I if I read the numbers correctly, we've already spent pretty much all of that, >> right? Have we we've already spent >> No, we've spent $125,000 so far. >> Okay. So, so is this regular maintenance
or these special one-off projects uh on these maintenance issues or are they both? >> So, it's both. Yeah. >> Okay. Could you just tell me just some of the major uh one-offs that we're doing for maintenance? >> Uh air conditioning breaking down. Uh
most of the heaters in the fire department failed over the course of the winter. >> Ouch. Uh my, you know, the garage at DPW froze the sprinkler lines because it was minus 20 a couple of days
>> and they all burst. Um roofing, >> toilet fixtures, it it it's they're every the infrastructure is old. >> Yeah. >> And again, almost like the trucks were going back with band-aids. Mhm.
>> Um, some places get something new, some places get something that's fixed, but I can assure you and everybody here, if I can do it in-house, I do it in house. Whether it's mechanical work or whether
it's repair work uh, with with the people in public works, we don't I don't, like I said before with the painting, I'm not contracting that out. I'm not I try to contract as little as possible because I'm a union guy. Contracting stuff out
>> means you lose your job. >> So, and and it, you know, doing it yourself saves a lot of money. I >> My phone's ringing all day long. We got a floated flooded toilet. We have lights are out. We have rats. We have >> Oh,
>> hornets. We have this that. So, taking care of these buildings. Um, I can't tell you how many times on the library that the door closer just falls off the door. >> You know, yesterday the elevator stopped working, >> right?
>> I didn't have to call a contractor. I my guys fixed it. >> It it and it's every day. I'm the biggest landlord in town >> and I own really crappy buildings. I'm so sorry.
>> So, >> thank you for >> But that's like I just I just wondered if there were major projects that were were you were planning to do, but it sounds like it's just pretty much regular maintenance. >> Okay, that that's fine. On the same page, uh 551 Valley, uh there's an indication last year the budget was 15
grand. We spent 18 grand. Uh this year the budget's been bumped up to 18 grand. Could could you just explain what that what that property is used for and and uh who we're paying rent to and why it went up, please? >> I don't.
>> So, we are on uh >> 078. >> Yeah. >> What page? >> This is page 129 of the >> 129 says hammer. No, 078. >> Says rental 551.
>> Yeah. Is that the arts council? >> No, it's next door to the arts council. >> Oh, the substation. >> Police substation. >> Oh, yeah. >> The police substation. >> Yeah. I was just wondering because I thought it was it was a public safety uh
but it's on the public works uh budget. So, I'm just wondering what's what's going on. >> Yeah, I have that one highlighted. >> I don't believe we own that building. I believe that's a rental. >> You know what talking about, John? >> 07 07
>> 07 a like a halfway down. >> Okay. >> Thunder sprinkler system. >> That's it. Time to bump her up. >> I'll check with the QPA. >> Yeah, this is not around the corner. where we have the the traffic. Uh
we're not 100%. We'll we'll check with the QPA. We'll get get you an answer on that. >> I I think this is this is actually the >> Is that the lot? >> I think this is the arts council. I think this is 555 Valley Road, not 55. >> The Valley substation is at is at um 540
549. So what we need to clarify what this >> I the history of it and I it's $2,000 a month. I think this was the arts council. I don't know why it's 551 here. And >> so we just saved 18 grand.
>> So this should this was >> removed last year. Why was there why was there a payment >> done every year? And so she put $18,000 back in. >> I I I put 18,000 in. This is me. Yeah. >> Can we take that out? >> So I make a motion to remove $18,000 7A.
>> The question is is is it somewhere else? Like was this what we promised to pay? And >> no, >> no, no. This this was used for rent last year. >> There's no additional money promised >> cuz we had it on a separate page. It
wasn't in this part of the budget. So this is more money that went there. Is that what you're saying? Because if it's not moved >> No, that we had that on a separate page. This is payments to Villa to Artez LLC. So
>> 555 Valley Road 551. >> We had that in a different part of the budget last year. >> Yeah, it was in a different part of the budget. I mean >> I'm saying what if this was in this line is that two things that were paid out on them and we didn't know about it. >> Made the motion.
>> Yeah, this this this is what it was January through September that we made payments and I believe September was the last month. Can you just let me finish stuff instead of interrupting me, please? >> Sorry. >> No, no, no. I'm just I'm trying to get the floor and it keeps getting taken away from me. I'm just
>> Go ahead, Councilman. >> All right. Well, we have a motion and a second on the floor now. >> No, he has the floor. >> Does he have >> He has the floor. So, there's no motion. >> There's no motion. >> Councilman Koviaak has a floor and he has a lot of questions. So, let go ahead. >> Okay. And and while I respect
Councilwoman Ruden, we apparently don't know what the heck this is. So until we figure out what it is, we we should not be doing anything uh you know with it until we know what we're doing. So as soon as we do know what we're doing, we can refer to Councilwoman Ruden. She can
make her motion. Uh also I think on the same page, there's a contract for privatized services that uh budgeted for $214,500 last year. We spent just under that. We bumped up the budget for this year to $223,000
uh and change. I'm just wondering why it's increased. And it appears that we spent all that money in the first quarter. So, I'm trying to under understand why we would do that. Spended all the money in the first quarter when we still got three more quarters to go.
And I I'm assuming it's a contract, but I don't know. >> No, I thought it was snow. >> Yeah, >> I had I had that flag. I thought it was snow. >> Okay. So, this this is for um Denafhrio and for Sterling Securities.
>> Terrible. >> My Sterling I thought that was a separate >> that's the court has a separate line item for their own. This is for our >> our security in this building. Um and it's not it's not totally spent. It's um
it's encumbered. So, we do that when we we pass the resolution. I'm just trying to get to the page here. >> And it's and it's both it's both contracts because Denafhrio, don't they do all of the uh lawn care and gardening and >> correct? Correct. >> Combined. So, it full.
>> So, Denafhrio was encumbered for um 154,000 or that's what's remaining still. And then Sterling Securities, what's remaining is 52,000. We've actually spent dollars out the door is $16,520.
That's what's actually been cut in checks to them. The rest of it is encumbered. $26,880 is what's left in. >> Okay. So, did it increase because the the contracts themselves increased? >> Correct. >> Okay.
>> The bits that came in. Yes. >> Okay. Uh also on the same page, we have flowers budgeted last year for $4,000. We spent uh uh 27% more, $5,100 and change. Now we've got a budget for $5,100.
Just trying to figure out why it increased. Were we not doing a good enough job with the flowers last year? >> I I I increased the sub account um to more accurately match the spend from last year, but the overall recommended
budget um only went up the $400. But I wanted that sub account to be more um in line with was what we actually spent on flowers last year. >> And so so my question is why did we spend more on flowers? I I love flowers just as much as the next guy, but if
we're trying to keep the budget tight, maybe we go back to the $4,000 and book the $1,100 in savings. I'm just >> Oh, I'm working like >> I think was were the the flowers for outside here? >> The the flowers uh we plant in the
spring and the fall, mums in the fall, um some annuals in the spring. We've already planted at the pool. We'll be planting here on Wednesday. Uh more often than not, the flowers are 20 anywhere around $2,500 for each
planting season. Yeah, >> that's that's where the number comes from. Uh I try to plant fewer flowers by using perennial bushes because they're cheaper, which is what I'll do out here today uh tomorrow or Wednesday. But
that's what the number is. It comes out to about $2,500 per planting season. >> So you want to cut the art center council by why not cut the flowers? Yeah, that's what I was I was going to
say unless there's some imperative. >> So, we just So, we cut weeding and now we're going to cut we just >> I'm not I'm not talking about weeding. I think weeding and and uh and lawn care is important. >> Yeah. >> Look should look nice around here.
>> Where's Linda Styles when you need her? >> Okay. So, I'm I'm uh moving to uh cut the budget back to $4,000. Second. >> Oh, wait, wait, wait. Questions? >> Yeah. Did you just Is that a motion?
>> Yeah, I just moved. >> Motion. Okay, I second it. >> So, is that not what we're going to do? We're not making motions here when we come up. >> Oh, I just didn't know if it was fit. >> You guys, you were going to ask your questions and we weren't going to make motions until you finished with all of your questions.
>> Okay. So, that's what we agreed to do. No, >> no, we didn't really talk about that. We can make motion and then let I just want you to have an opportunity to ask all your questions. Make the motion if you'd like. >> Okay. So, we'll save that. No, no, no. We'll just save it till we make motions.
Uh this is on this is on my version of page 253. It's uh uh for the uh road repair, equipment, curbs, drainage. the uh the budget last year was for a little
over $9,000. We spent a little less than $4,000. The uh budget went up this year. And I just want to confirm that uh we expect to come close to the new budget level, which is $10,000. >> Um budget three.
>> What line item are we looking at? I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. I'm at 253. I seem to be the only one using the budget that you sent us. I'm I I don't know why, but this is >> other than a page number. >> I did not a motion.
>> The last one we have is 200 wildlife environmental. >> Yeah, I don't have >> you said it's okay. So, we're looking at street repairs. Yes. Um >> that's another section. >> I'm sorry. So, we're on street repairs page 140 for those at home before
section because I have a question on the section too. Councilman Koviaak, is it okay if we just stay apologize? >> I didn't realize I was the only one using this budget. So, please take it away. >> Can I say something? >> Yes.
>> I think it's >> we're going to get We're already confused. We're going to get more confused. I think if we're switching pages then we need to make the motions and you know take the vote as we go because I think it's just to sit here
and have all this discussion and then move on to the next thing and then have to come back again to that. It's >> I I don't think that's >> Councilman Kovac. Do you want to make a motion about the flowers and then we'll >> I didn't get to comment about the flowers yet. >> Oh, okay.
>> No, I I No, I don't. I just I just want this process to be as efficient as possible and uh I I'm totally confused on what to do now. So I went to a different page that blew it all up. So please >> you want to make the motion about the flowers? >> No, I do not want to make a motion at this time. I will I will wait.
>> Okay. Do you want to have a comment? >> I do. So I am going to believe in the flowers because he already went out and bought them, didn't you? Or I don't want to show Oh, in the f you didn't buy them. >> No, no. Apparently, I have an open PO for $2,500 to
>> get the flowers. >> Yeah, I I you know, I drive down Main Street. I drive around town. I I mean, for the little bit of money that we're going to save, I say keep the flowers because, you know, we things are looking shabby. Things are looking shabby and and that has to be it's part of overall
balance. It's it's only a couple dollars there. Um, in regards to my I want to go back to Sterling um, with the security. So the Denafhrey was 154. So you're saying Denafhre's 154 for all the
properties throughout the town which we do every year with all the various little islands and >> correct. Correct. Okay. >> And Sterling is how much for the year for the security and this is only for uh the gentleman that we have downstairs
every day. How much is that? I mean, that's not you. That's Mr. Tatinia question. >> Yeah. So, it it it varies between um like $5,000 and $6,100 per month. I guess it's the number of days that we're open. >> Um
>> Okay. And that's contractual anyway. I just wanted to get a better handle on the year. >> Okay. And when's that contract at? >> Um that goes through the end of the year. >> The end of the year. >> Okay. No, I just made I'm just making a
a a mention because I got a comment from another security company that you know when we go to bid it out they just did a go out to all >> 68,000 annually is what the QPA is telling >> just to make sure when you you know when it's up that we make sure it's bid.
>> We send it out. We so our QPBA has a list of every any time we send a bid out, anybody we send in the past has been awarded >> or sent to, they all receive emails. So that we we make sure that we we notify everybody. Sometimes companies just
don't respond. >> Okay. I guess they missed the advertisement because >> Yeah, they could have missed the advertisement. I you know I don't know who the company is, what the situation was, but we had more than one bid for this contract and we awarded based on the the price. >> Yeah, we award awarded this bid with
resolution 27-26 >> except I recall. I'm just making the comment again. >> We we advertise we send our QPA is very thorough. She has a list. I mean, depending on the on the uh bid, she can have anywhere from four to 20 people
going out because we just some we don't send out. If if we keep sending out and they're not responsive over the se several years, she doesn't she's not going to >> send it out again. But >> but we do advertise it and and it's it's on our website and and there's there's services out there >> that that alert people too. A lot of
these companies belong to these services. It's not just West Orange, other communities. It says, "Oh, um, Easter Bus is advertising for security also." They and they and they people can bid on it if they want if they choose to. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. I'm good on
this section. I just, you know, we'll go back and get the information on line 07A, the rental. >> Should we finish up this page? >> I think we should finish up this page and u and have the motion on the flowers and then we can move on. >> I'd like to make some comments. >> Okay.
Um, okay. For the janitorial services, um, our contract last year was 58,000. >> What was that? >> 71. >> That That's how much we we paid.
>> And what we when when did we switch contracts? What month? >> March 1st. >> Okay. So, for how much did we pay them for for the first two months? So, we've we paid uh
skipped it. Sorry. Oh, 71. Oh, we paid nationwide um $15,437. >> Okay. And the contract for the company that we now have is 74,000.
I think every both of them together will equal out to be about 74. Yeah. >> What what is the contract? How much is the contract for this one? >> I don't have the newest company's bill in front of me. I only have the previous
vendor Nationwide. I I I don't have the uh >> the new one. want to put it in the budget based on what the >> um agreement was. Right. >> Yeah. But I I don't have the monthly bill. I don't >> I don't want to misspe. So,
>> okay. >> Okay. So, >> can we make the motion on the flowers and then >> one second? No. >> Oh, you're still going. Okay. >> Um for the the the privatized services, um this is
a question for Mr. Um, is there a way that we can get rid of of uh private landscaping? Shouldn't the DPW be mowing our own lawns and and doing whatever we need to do on our
public properties and saving uh what what we're paying for for the denio. >> This this brings us back to our earlier situation with manpower. The last time the township mowed the lawn and kept up
the parks, we had 12 guys, 12 men. Now I have five. Physically impossible. Um, one half of the crew would do baseball fields and clean up garbage and
take care of tennis courts and basketball courts and set up the pool while the other six men in two crews of three would cut the large properties, one crew, the smaller properties, another group. It's it it would take six
more men just for parks and grounds to uh fill that slot. Can we do some of it right now and cut and cut these costs? And also, shouldn't we be reducing our costs in in regard to the dog park which
has no trees and that was part of the bid? >> Contracted? I know we contracted, but there are no trees. I I don't I can't speak to the dog park, but there's absolutely no way we would be able to cut any any grass except for somebody
making a complaint about something grew too high or or uh the landscapers missed something. We I don't have that capability. I don't even have equipment. >> Yeah, equipment's gone. >> We got rid of all our equipment. Last
year when this was up, uh, I screded up some old lawnmowers and and I was looking to borrow some, uh, Toros from, you know, surrounding townships that I've worked with, but it never came
to fruition. So, uh, and that was just in case of an emergency. So, you know, we don't have we don't have that capability. Not as in that. >> Okay. um for hardware. Um you spent last year,
>> so we know where you are >> 110. You you spent just under 4,000. You're asking for 5,000. You haven't spent anything this year. >> It looks to me like $5,000 has already been encumbered.
>> That's encumbered. Yeah. So, we do um we do what we call a blanket purchase order sometimes where we'll encumber money and then draw down as as we need to. Um so, let me pull up uh 110, >> but there has been no expenditure to
date. Correct. It's just been encumbered. We've spent actually spent uh $473.3 of that $5,000 incumbrance. Um and it's with Home Depot. >> Okay. So,
Council President, I'd like to make two motions if that's okay now or Okay. >> So, I'd like to make the first motion would be on line 110 hardware to reduce it back to what it was, which was just shy of 4,000. So reduce that by $1,000
for hardware. >> So is there a second? >> Yeah, I'll second it. >> So I'd like to hear like >> situation that I recall us getting into last year and I'm just going to make this comment really quickly. I don't
think any of us uh know what the machines are, know what the hardware that is being replaced. That's not our specialty. We did the same thing last year with screws and plugs and things for the fire trucks and the fire department when they hadn't used uh
their equipment. I think at some point we have to leave it to especially if it's daytoday uh mechanical issues problems for our staff to make those decisions. If we don't have the money
and we don't keep it in the budget, what are they? they already don't have the equipment that they need. At least give them the capacity to repair the equipment that is the dilapidated and not in the best condition. So, how did you feel about reducing that line item
to 4,000 as well as Mr. Datinia? Well, like always, we make do with what what we get, but to have the money and be able to, you know, when we need hinges or we need nails or
uh nuts and bolts, I I I would rather have the money than not for emergencies and unforeseen emergencies. >> Mr. Duten, >> um I'm going to agree with um Superintendent Lour. Um, I, you know, we
can't stock everything. There are times where we have to go to a Home Depot and get supplies and, um, I I think it should stay at what it's at. >> You know, with the things that make the town look pretty, that's one thing. But
with the things that a department is going to need to be able to function or meet that need, I think those are items that we should not be um removing from their budget. I think those are items that we should not be removing from their budget for with unforeseen repairs. This is a
repair cost. This isn't something to make the town look pretty. >> Councilwoman Castellina. >> So, um, last year, I just want to remind the council, we did thoughtfully, surgically
remove a lot of money. Then we got we were able to get the tax bill down. So I was supportive of a lot of items. Then the state turned around and said we took too much money out. So we got to find that balance this year without
having another 18 meetings. So I had asked Mr. Datiniac and Mr. Moraldo just to remind all the department heads if they you know just double check it again before you come to us and anywhere they think they could remove please remove so
we don't have to go through this process line by line and you know put them in a situation where they you know feel they have to remove it if they really think they do. I don't want to do that that to our staff anymore. So, I'm going to ask
you one more time. If there is a place where you think that you could remove, please do so. Um, if not, um, you know, I'm fine with leaving that item in there. It again, it's it's a to remove a little bit more for him. Even if $500, I
don't see it necessary at this point. That's Thank you, Council President. >> Okay. Before I make a motion, I just like to make >> already made a motion. >> We can vote now. We could vote if everybody's done. >> Well, then I'd just like to add one one more point, which is that this is asking for an increase of $1,000. I'm just
asking to maintain the same budget that we had last year, not not an increase. >> Yeah. No, I respect that, Councilwoman. >> Okay. Councilwoman Castellino to remove $1,000. >> No. >> Councilman Koviaak, >> no. >> Councilwoman Ruden,
>> yes. >> Councilwoman Williams, >> no. >> Council President Scarpa, >> yes. Okay, the motion fails. >> Okay, I'd like to make >> Well, I just I need to make a correction. I apologize. We actually went to the new uh janitorial April 1st.
It was to resolution 11126 and it was in the amount of $63,911 with the award contract. So, I just want to make sure that we I spoke about March. I I'm sorry the months of blending. I just didn't >> Thank you for the clarification. All
right. Mhm. >> But to that point, it is still the amount that you put in the budget with the new company as well as the previous company that no longer is with us. Thank you. >> Okay. And we move on to from this page.
Do we make the motion about the flowers? >> Um, no. I'd like to make a second motion since I still have a floor. I'd like to make a motion to remove the $18,000 proposed in line item 7A rental 551 Valley Road.
>> Do we know what it is though? >> It's for It's for the art center. >> Are we sure? >> 51 is the Valley. >> Okay, then I'll second it. >> Okay. Well, I would like to follow up on that because when when you go to Google Maps and you go to 551, what you see is
the big glass entrance way into the West uh West Orange Arts Council facility. Right next to it is a small single file door with a township logo on it. So, and it looks like it goes upstairs. I'm I'm
not certain. I've never been up there. So, >> not us upstairs. C Councilman, I believe that that was the old substation and traffic before we took over the gas station on the corner that that's where traffic and the
motorcycle that's worked out. So I I would imagine that the symbol is there just because nobody's taken it off yet. >> Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. I I have confirmed it is definitely the arts council rent from the prior year from >> Can we move this from DPW because this
shouldn't even be in DPW? I I would like um for it to be So, can we confirm that it is the mayor's desire for the rental to be in the budget and then put it in the right place? it well it was me that put the the
18,000 but um >> but it shouldn't be in DPW's budget period should it >> this is this is where it's been charged in prior years this public building operations and maintenance sort of big um catchall >> we have for instance with the downtown
alliance for instance with some of our other commissions and boards they all have their own separate >> support for commissions yeah >> exactly so I I would like the arts center gallery to have the same thing. >> Well, right now we have a motion. So, let's just
>> and I'm discussing the motion. So, okay. >> So, >> well, if it fails, then >> if it fails, >> it's going to be out of budget anyway. >> Yeah. So why don't I vote >> and then if it if you wanted to put it
>> into support for commissions >> to put it back in somewhere else which is why I'm asking that it be put in the right place as opposed to us just eliminating it like are we going to start eliminating other line items in this capacity? I mean what we had talked
about also was doing a deep dive counciloman >> at all of the um boards and commissions and organizations that we support so that we could understand how we're allocating those funds. So if if we're just cutting, are we going to be
consistent with cutting others as well? >> We'll see. >> That's up to the council. Um >> let's just make let's just move forward and we'll do as we arrive and each of them will make the decision. We have a motion and I second it. Let's take the vote. Go ahead.
>> Councilwoman Castelino to remove the $18,000. >> Yes. >> Councilman Koviaak. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden? >> Yes. >> Councilwoman Williams? >> No. >> Council President Scarpa? >> Yes. >> The motion carries. >> Councilwoman? >> Yes. I have a question. Um, it says that
we paid or charged last year for 7A rental 18,000. >> Correct. >> Can you confirm that we actually paid that? >> Yes. N months months January through September >> through September. And did we receive any rental income from the council? Can you confirm how much that was?
>> Yeah, we can send that. But we received rent income from from the arts council. >> Can you confirm the amount? >> Sure. >> What What do you mean rental income from the arts? >> Not rental income, the contribution from the arts. >> Oh, you mean the the cost sharing? Yes.
>> Yes. Understood. But I just wanted to clarify what that meant because there's not $2,000 that comes back. Their portion was only $500, >> right? And we I knew we received it for every month, but we we will confirm and and and give you the analysis. >> I think we can move on from this
>> arts council. >> Okay. But my my question is that if we if we received $4,500 from the arts council, wouldn't this number be reduced? >> And where did that 4500? No, because there were other items in addition to the rent that was paid on behalf of the
arts council. There was utilities, >> central monitoring for the alarm, internet, telephone. >> The state accounting rules don't let you offset like this. You got to take it in. >> Yeah. You can't really contra appropriations. So, you take it in as as a miscellaneous revenue, not
anticipated. There's only certain times that you can contra for appropriations. >> Okay. >> Okay. Now it's shade tree notes >> right now. >> Shade tree. >> What page page are we? 132 shade tree.
>> So for the public the this is department 7202 shade tree care. Um the the budget last year was 313,000. We spent 97,000
and uh we are requesting 260,000. Councilman Kovak, you had your hand. >> This is a procedural question. If we're finished with a page, should we not vote on the rest of the page? >> Might need to come back later. We'll >> haven't heard from CBA. Yeah. >> Generally, yes. But
>> yeah, >> if you want to go back to anything else, >> we'll get on. I'm sorry. Thank you. Sorry. So, Council President, on behalf of CBA, I just don't understand why you keep passing through
pages. We have information from each of these pages that we want to bring to your attention. you're making motions and you're voting on things that would essentially render the work that each of your appointees have done as
I wouldn't say moot but less than useful to your discussions and I wouldn't want to slow the meeting down so I don't know if you can at each page just have us come up and share with you okay perhaps before you move to motions and that way
you have the benefit of our >> hard work. >> All right. Oh, I think we could do that. Did you have anything on the last page that we just finished? >> So, I can summarize what I have. >> Sure. Go ahead. >> Okay. As quickly as possible. Um, just
first um as a point of information or order, the first 13 pages of the budget, when do you review that and when can we ask questions about that? So, if we're talking the revenue tax rate page, that'll be when when I present on whatever date that's going to end up
being. >> Thank you. Um, and I just because it's here and it's been asked by three other members, um, the meeting between the CFO, the CBA, and the council president usually occurs
before these workshops begin, and we would ask that we get that scheduled as soon as possible. Um the the last item unrelated but related. This was the first page that had redactions of public employees names and the SBA strongly
encourages this council to and the administration to make sure that public information is maintained for the public. We are very uncomfortable as citizen members of a board that we have information that you've redacted and the
public is not is not um aware of that. We we strongly encourage you to unredact. It's a it's a precedent that you're setting. It's the first time you've done it and um I don't think it I don't think it's lawful or we don't
think it's lawful. All right. Um overtime budget for DPW and other um and other um departments in town that would be affected. Have you considered and
contemplated the impact of the World Cup in um estimating your budgetary costs and how that might increase? That's one I don't know if you want me to go question by question or >> it's up to whatever's on the Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, I I'll I'll answer that. I I did not
consider World Cup for >> the DPW budget. Actually, I didn't consider for any of the budgets. Now, >> I'll answer that. >> Okay. Number two, um we recommend that any vacant positions that are in the
budget be cut. Um number three, there's uh organ you're mentioning an organizational chart and a 400page budget. We have a 211page budget that we've reviewed and we do not have the organizational chart. So if that's
possible to get to the SBA, we would appreciate it. Um the next question uh is there a process in place that identifies which routes happen first? I believe that question is related to snow removal. Um and then the concern is that
there are some areas that are plowed, replowed, and salted while there are other neighborhoods that haven't been touched. Um and the next question is for weeks when the staff has to work six days. Um, is it possible if the township hires
temporary workers so that there isn't so much overtime? And um, then there was just a comment from another CBA member regarding CDLs. Do you need CDLs for each of the individuals that are um, on
the leaf collection crew? >> Maybe it's better to go question by question. I forgot some of them. The first question um, >> the questions. Yeah, the the first question um regarding the the the big budget the 429 page I didn't print those out. So the SBA that picked up printed
copies they they have essentially the same um without redaction um the same budget that we're looking at up here on on the website. We did set up a share drive for C as many CBA members as we
could and we shared a link um to the CBA members that we have email addresses for. So you can view the full 429 page online. Um and it includes backup information like invoices and and um
some more detailed budget documents. It it it just it's so many pages to print out. I I gave you electronic access to it. Um, you know, if if somebody has an issue where they they just can't view it on a computer, you can let us know.
We'll we'll make a big copy for someone. We just didn't default to it. Um the um the organization >> um charts uh >> the organizational charts we could just supply them. That's I'll send it to the
the clerk. And we can pull on that shared point too if it's a little bit easier to keep things sort of organized for both groups. Um and I think >> chart something that would not be given to the public now that we've redacted employees >> some of the things that we're going to
do especially when it comes to the police we are going to redact. I asked the chief today that was one of the questions we have because of Daniel's law and things of that nature. Um I had the chief redact the names um because we have to protect those laws. So, so that's why with some of the charts were
being redone because we just want to make sure because of the fact that um names that are up here, we don't want it out to the public and we asked our legal for that opinion. >> So, I just as a point of information, Daniel's law, you can redact address, you can't redact name, public
information, name, salary. I I think I provided you with the um legal reference to that. So, maybe you can pass that through Mr. Samero again. >> I believe Mr. was aware of it and he made an opinion. >> We didn't get a response though. >> We did. >> We did. >> We did.
>> So, we didn't get a response. So, >> I believe you. >> Yeah, I believe you were. >> Yeah, let me look it up. >> Um, so yeah, for as far as the the public document that we're looking up here and and we do have that that big black bar redacting. Um, that was our
attorney had said before you post this, you have to redact the name. We're we're just following um our attorney when it comes to this document. And then you had four other questions and now I've already forgotten. Can you go to the next one after? >> First.
>> Uh >> if there's a process in place that identifies which routes occur first because some of the areas are plowed and replplowed and salted while other neighborhoods haven't been touched. As I stated earlier, there's some 27
routes. We divide up the routes per driver. No, you know, maybe within that route, there's somebody first and somebody last, but I can assure you that there's
no less than 25 to 27 trucks out there plowing at any given time. Now, if somebody falls behind because of a breakdown or an accident or whatever, we move another truck into that same area
when somebody is done because obviously some routes are a little bit smaller than others just because of, you know, Gregory and Northfield Intersect and Walker Road. Um, if somebody's having trouble finishing their route, when somebody else is finished, they move
over to help. And that that is regardless of whether they're a contractor or or public works because the sooner we can get out of here, the happier we are. So, nobody is is first
and last except to within their confines of each route. I mean, I can probably, if you'd run with me, I can sit here and tell you where the routes are. No, that's okay. >> No, I don't think that was the question. This is not my question, but but ju just um it's I think the question is is there
a process in place that identifies which routes happen first and and if there is if that could be shared, but there it's not a question about >> No, it's they all happen at the exact same time. >> Okay. >> When everybody comes in, they all go to their resigned route and they keep
working it until it's done. >> So, could this be the discrepancy between some of us I'm sorry. Could this >> the floor? >> No, I I'm asking her question. I I'm This is part of her question. Could it possibly be that the routes that we do
in house that they're seeing trucks sooner than perhaps some of the routes that are outsourced? >> It's not my question. I know how well they do our street. I So, but there are questions about other parts of town being done at a different time. I would
wonder if that's because they're subcontracted out and maybe the subcontractors take a little bit more time. >> That's that's not the statement. I think what the question is is that there are certain areas of the town that are less accessible than others. We don't have on street parking in some areas where we
have in others. So what we've had to do is to address that is Mr. the tour has to then go to the contracts we have to get the either the vendors in or our own staff to the we have to do overnight parking removing vehicles and things of that nature. So, it's a slower process in some streets as opposed to others
only just due to the sheer volume of vehicles that are in the neighborhoods. >> Okay. And I think that hits the nail on the head. It was the valley that was mentioned as the neighborhood. And so that's probably the issue. >> One of the things we did with the valley this year, we worked with the county. So, we asked the county to borrow their um their uh garage, parking garage. So
when we were in the process of clearing, they graciously allowed us to any resident who wanted to wasn't obligated. They could have parked up there to help us with the system and we have that standing um we have that standing um agreement with them now. We we just have to call them and notify them what we're going to do. >> The only problem I have with that is
then how do you get back from the Turtle Back Zoo parking lot if you live in the valley? >> Well, it's just >> escape. Yeah, escape. >> Yeah. Well, that that was just it was just an option that we were looking for because we just had so many cars in the valley that >> maybe we can consider using the school
parking lots if we're going to do a shared >> may not have all the conversations we could ever get through until the next snow comes but um you know we have to get snow schools plowed too in order to put cars there. So that that we we looked at that option on track. >> Yeah. The other was about the temporary
workers contract I think. >> Right. So that last uh question was for the weeks when staff have to work six days, can the township hire temp workers so there's not so much overtime and also um do we require CDLs for everyone in
the leaf collection crew? >> So as far as the temporary if we're going to be looking at the whole program that that's something we could just explore whether we could use them or not. Um, as far as the CDL drivers, there were some people I actually I'll leave that to you, but there was many that are required.
>> All right. So, any any given Leaf crew will have tandem trucks, which are uh three axle trucks andor garbage trucks. All these vehicles require a CDL driver. Uh there will be a loader operator,
again, required CDL driver. somebody that drives a pusher with a cattle pusher on the front. Doesn't have to be a a CDL driver. And anybody that's a laborer will usually be blowing out the
leaves. So the the crews are made up of multi- uh position players. So it's they're not all they're not all CDL. Um and and it ranges from labor, light labor all the way up to the top.
Thank you. Uh there was I I just realized because I got a nod. So there's one other point and it was just um the removal of the rent for the um 551 or 555 alley. We that we support um the same action as last year. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Do you want me to answer World Cup one? >> Go ahead. So, so World Cup uh Miss Ben and the committee we purposely um are going to have that we we were awarded the FanFest
bus from u from the committee from the FIFA committee and which is awesome for a street fair and we purposely put it on street fair day because to have another big event was it's it's just too expensive, you know. So, everybody's
mindful of that. um the high the um the high school uh coach and the mountaintop league, they were going to talk and work together to do something up at the high school for watch party, but mainly the focus has been really focusing on and advertising for the um for all the
restaurants and the bars in town to >> well for us yeah our cause so that's purposely why we did that. So there won't be any additional cost with that. We kept on the existing events of the year. >> Council President. Yes. Um I just wanted
to let Miss Bennett know that on April 23rd at 11:07 a.m. Mr. Seero. >> Yes. >> You're welcome. >> Okay. Council woman, >> I just want to I just wanted to follow up on on one of Miss Bennett's points,
which is that the redaction of employee names, which we have never done before, is a clear violation of OPRA regulations, which requires that employees names, titles, salaries, overtime that they are explicitly public. They are available through an
OPRA. And I want to just put on the record that this this is setting us up for some trouble. >> Yeah. Okay. C. >> Okay. So, this is what Mr. Samero wrote. There is nothing wrong with redacting the names of employees on the budget as part of the council agenda that I am
aware of. While your citation is not inaccurate, that pertains to public record requests, i.e. OPER requests. If you were to make a proper OPER request, the information would have to be produced, but that does not dictate what the governing body elects to disclose for the purpose of a budget discussion.
Furthermore, it makes good sense not to list the names of indivi individuals at a council meeting as it only will invite discussion on an employee by employee basis. This was an operational decision for the purposes of completing burrow business in an expedient fashion. The
identities of the employees have no bearing on the budgetary discussions and anything to narrow the focus of the attention and discussion is for efficiency purposes only. And then he went on to say, "If there is uh if Miss Bennett was aware of any other authority to support your position, please bring
it to my attention and I will gladly consider the same." >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, let's Can we move on? >> Yes. >> Okay. Shay trees. >> Shay trees. Um so we are on page 132 of the
um online budget document shade tree care 7202. Um the one thing I do want to note is that um part of the 2025 unspent money is been earmarked for um the new tree
planting because we had >> put this out there many many moons ago. We just don't have a number yet. So that paid or charged amount for 2025 we have earmarked um but we we don't have it completely set yet. So just just want to
put it out there that this this resolution that's on for tomorrow is is getting charged that 2025 >> council president. So 91 with pruning. So last year we spent 82,700.
So that's the money you're like the additional monies that you're talking about. We should have spent it last year. Is that what you're saying? >> No, >> no, no, no, no. It's trees. The the tree budget. >> Okay. Well, that's the 40. Yeah, that's line 200. >> But we had 9600 spent. We are going to
charge that 2025 line because we had >> we had earmarked it for back in 2025. We're just finally getting uh contracted. So, so it's like doubled, like more than doubled.
>> It's not. It was >> 210,000. >> We budgeted $313,000. >> What you spent last year, but you only spent $82,700 >> because we we weren't able to iron out that number for for the tree planting. >> And you can't lower this number at all.
>> I mean, I'll I'll defer to to take a thousand >> Mr. the tour >> because there's the pruning is on an emergency basis. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, we had a good year. So, I mean, you could lower it and then, you know, we don't have such a great year.
Um, >> I know we made commitment to keep on track with the trees, but like everything else, I I mean, we cut back last year a little bit. What can we cut back this year? >> I Again, like I can't predict what the the future's going to be for emergency
tree services. Um, and that's what that 091 line is for. >> No. Yeah. 210,000. >> That is just pruning, not planting. >> It's pruning. It's tree removal. Um,
>> a lot of dead trees. I think how many vendors do we uh qualify for it? >> Right now we have three vendors >> doing contracted tree work. Uh we haven't as of yet we haven't utilize them. I believe our first uh goround
will be tomorrow for a tree that's hanging over high tension wires that my guys are not qualified to do. >> Nor would I like them over high tension wires. >> Again, I go back to the same thing I said before. If we can do stuff inhouse,
we do it in house. We, you know, there's four trees over 30 inches in diameter, two with that are hollow and two that are just failing. They're just out there. So, they're coming down because they're hazard six. They're hazard
priority six. So this the these monies are to take care of whatever we do as far as tree takedowns, emergency tree takedowns, which is a different price, and pruning.
Now, pruning is a unique set of skills. A private company, a contracting company that all they do is tree work, they can do 10, 20 trees a day. My guys, they're they're tree work. They're tree guys,
but they're public works guys. Nobody's been their whole career cutting down trees. Save one man. He he's that's all he's done. But to, you know, be expedient in what we need to do and and a lot of these
prunings are hazard proof. They're hazard proof. Not to say that they're all, but they all need to be pruned and h trees need to be taken down. Uh like I said, some things are beyond our scope,
our abilities. I I'm not ashamed to say that. It's a it's a lifong >> no that Yeah. >> God that you need to know what you're doing when you're doing it. Um so Beth, this these are these are the numbers that are
are what we need. >> Okay? you know. >> So, so my question so but do you gauge how many you took down last year with the with the numbers to >> you know I wish I brought that I I'm going to say that the township took down
the town tree guys put down upwards of a 100 trees. >> Terrible. >> The contractors probably in the range of 200. I thought that was part of what um we had when the report the tree is that sounds very keep
>> the arbor pro. >> Yeah, the arrow. >> Yes. >> Tells us which trees are bad, which trees are >> um >> All right. So, you're going off of that to get this 210 number and you can't reduce it at all. >> What what we have encumbered right now because this was I did this as a 331. It
was the 825. Now we have 161,000 encumbered and that's with for all the emergency potential emergency tree work pruning um and what's stump grinding >> thing we got to realize >> not spent sorry Mr. Well, I it's not
spent, but it's encumbered. >> Yeah. >> Sitting there. >> And depending on the on the contractor, they they like to gather not so much the emergencies, but if they're doing a pruning, they're going to they're going to set aside a week and come out here. They're going to come to West Orange and go a week. So that they're they're not going to come and do peace meal, you
know, tree here, tree there, street there. So they so while we encumber this is so that they can we can schedule ahead and they come. So we have scheduled a lot of different tree prunings already. So that's why a lot of this number these numbers have been encumbered. And we also have some uh dangerous trees we're investigating right now that we're going to be working
on as well. >> Looks like a lot of them when I look around town. >> Yeah. Councilwoman Ruden, did you have something you wanted to talk about? >> Yes. Um we have tripled this budget at least and I was wondering if you've
already spent 161 and you're asking for an additional 127,000. Um, isn't there some leeway to to pull this back by 40 40,000 and then if you need more money, come back to us.
But I don't want to to create a budget where it's so much larger than the trees that we're planting, three times larger than the trees that we that we seek to add to our uh municipality. And I don't want to give license to having more
trees that may be coming down unnecessarily. I believe Mr. Kip is on top of every tree we do take down and he's the uh resident professional as far as the trees are concerned. Um if he says it's
a hazard six, it's a hazard six. If he says it's a viable trait, it's a viable trade. I don't have his education. So I defer to his his standing on what needs to come down and what doesn't. I know at this I don't know the exact number. I
know at this point in time we have several trees that need to come down. >> I'm I'm sure that that you're acting responsibly. I'm not qu I'm not questioning that. I just think that the budget is is doesn't need to triple from
the prior year. And I'd like to suggest that we make a cut of 40,000. >> I I'll I I'll I'll go a little less if you want to go to 30. >> I will agree to that. >> You want to make the motion
>> about 091? >> Yeah. >> I make a motion to reduce line 91 contractual services pruning by 30,000. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. Is there any discussion before we vote?
>> Let's take the vote. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Councilwoman Castelino, >> yes. >> Councilman Koviaak, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Williams, >> Council President Scarlet, >> yes. The motion carries. >> It gives you 20 more than what you
encumbered. Um, council president. Yeah. Oh, sorry. >> Excuse me, council president. It's 7 o'clock. >> Yes, >> take a break. >> So, um, one, I would suggest a break if at least finish his paid. Take a break or or take a break. >> Let's finish two. I have two more
department heads on debt, >> right? >> Um, I don't think we're going to get to the police. So, with your permission, I'm going to tell the police chief just to head home. >> Sure. >> Because it's uh we only go till 9:00 and I doubt we're going to finish this and get the fire department >> 8:00. Yeah. >> Absolutely. Go ahead. >> Yes.
>> Thank you. >> And that should be my suggestion. You can finish. >> Yeah, let's finish the page. >> Yeah, let's finish the page if we can and then take a break. >> Yes. >> Um Mr. Lour, can you can you tell us what shade tree supplies you need?
SH supplies are chains, uh, teeth for our stunt machines, the two different kinds of stunt machines. There's teeth for them. There's teeth that we need to put on our new chippers
or I'm sorry, new chippers on the chippers when they wear out. New just new teeth. And uh, we just bought, you know, I'm going to I'm going to stumble with this. We just bought a new uh anchoring.
Again, I'm I'm not versed in tree work. >> Don't let her stump you. >> Get large limbs down. >> So, um >> Okay. So, last year, last year there was a budget request of 5100.
Nothing was spent. This year you're asking for 5,000. Has anything been spent? >> You just mentioned that >> we just encumbered the $5,000 so I can have an open PO with Northeastern. >> Correct. Nor Eastern Arburist,
you know. >> Yes. >> Store. Um I I purchased, like I said, I purchased these two items to help take down larger limbs. Unfortunately, some of the guys dropped the saw out of the bucket and bent the bar. So, we
actually bar >> and like I said, we just ordered teeth for sump machines and the chippers. >> Okay. So, with all of that, what do you expect your have you have you can you tell us how much has been spent to date
for those things, Mr. Dutiniac? >> And is there anything else other than that that you need? Just want to see where we >> So, we only booked the encumbrance of the 5,000. If you ordered something and and you haven't gotten the invoices, you haven't put them in yet. So,
>> I got got the stuff, the materials, and I got some stuff I'm waiting on, but it it's um I don't want you to think I'm running willy-nilly with the money. >> No, something breaks. It could be anything.
It could be a It could be a brake stop. It could be a bent chain. It could be anything. >> Okay. >> You know, a new pole saw that breaks. >> Okay. >> To be able to go up there so we're not wasting our time waiting on money and I
can get right back to work. >> Right. Okay. Thank you. I just want to I just want to make sure last year there were so many overrides in terms of what we budgeted and then what what we saw was actually spent. Is that locked down now or when will it be locked down? >> Not not in Zenv. Um, not in the current
system. So, we weren't able to actually get that sub account to to not lock. Um, with Edmmonds that's coming on board um May 1st for Binance and purchasing um it's much easier. So,
you can can't overexpend the sub accounts. With both systems, you can't overexpend what we could call the control budget. So in the case of like shade tree care, the control budget is the total of all the subs. So 313,000. Can't overexpend that in total. Um but
for Edmonds by default when we did the setup with them, it's on so that the only way you could exceed it is with a internal transfer done by me or the QPA. >> Okay. So as of May 1st, we're going to have a little bit >> Well, I say May 1st it goes live, but
I'd have to load all the the budget data in. So realistically in 2026 that budget will be in Edmonds but it's it's going to take you know probably a couple months to get running on Edmonds. >> So when Mr. Lour looks at his budget
does he know that he's either gone over it or >> we don't allow them to go over like I said controlwise we we can't stop them from going over the sub accounts. They can see it, but there's nothing in in the current system that prevents them
from doing it. When they're using admins and they try to exceed the sub account, it will say you've exceeded the sub account in your requisition request, >> you know, and it won't allow it to push through. >> Okay. So, is there some way that you can speak with all of the department heads while we're >> as part of the admin training? Yeah.
they all get an understanding of that's going to be the new >> process is that they're not going to be able to exceed their subs and they're going to have to come and ask us. >> Any other questions on this page or can we >> not for me? Thank you. >> Knock another one off. >> All right, let's
>> Okay. >> No, wait. No, no. Doesn't see >> have anything on the tree on the trees? >> I'm sorry. Let me know if I'm missing. >> What do you need? Five minutes. >> Need to vote for that or
>> No, no, no. Just go. >> We're all getting along here. >> Excellent. >> Removal get through the DPW in the next half hour. That's the goal. >> All right. >> Baltimore right.
>> Okay. Um >> Okay. So, welcome back everybody. Um we're working on DPW. I think uh Councilman Koviaak had a number of questions, so I'm going to let him ask his questions. >> Thank you, Council President. I just
have two questions on street repairs. >> The first one is line item 114, which is equipment curb drain restora. I guess restoration >> for the public. >> This is page 140. Yes. For the for the public at home.
Uh basically, uh we we spent uh almost $6,000 less, about twothirds less than we budgeted last year. We increase the budget this year uh to $10,000. There uh has not been any charges on it that I can see. I just want to be sure
that that uh uh Mr. Lour is reasonably certain that you're going to get close to that bogey when you didn't last year. So, we're on 7504 Street. Uh,
>> I'm sorry, Councilman. Can you say that question again? >> Yeah. Well, just basically, we spent $3,700 last year on equipment, curb, and drain restoration. We've raised the budget slightly to $10,000. We haven't spent anything yet. I just want to be
sure or I want to just see if Mr. Lour is reasonably sure he's going to get close to that $10,000 cuz I I don't want to leave it uh on the table otherwise. >> All right. Well, well, currently the storm water situation is uh we're being
increasingly pressured by the the state. >> So, we're you know we're in the process of doing inspections, cleanouts, rebuilding uh catch basins, for lack of a better term.
So a as we move forward trying to keep up with the state, we may have a lot more than what we're used to dealing with. You know, if if something was clogged, we used to go out and fix it. Now we're actually into a we go to every we're trying to get through every catch
basin because as we're required by the law to do so. If they're broken, we need to repair them. If they have broken pipe, we need to repair them. If a head is falling into the basin, we need to repair. >> Okay, that that's good. That's a great answer. Thank you. Uh, a couple of lines
down, line 200, street reservicing. Basically the same question. Uh, uh, the budget was knocked down this year to $7,500. I just again want to be reasonably sure that if we only spend $4,100 last year
that we're going to get closer to the 7,500 this year. Last one. >> Yeah, I know which one it is. I'm I'm trying to So, part of the part of that is that that's like for the street repairs, like the pot uh potholes and things of that nature we take from
there. A lot of our street resurfacing actually goes to our engineering department. This is more for like we we get a pothole in the backyard to go to the cold patch or the hot patch, whatever the case may be. That's what that that's so that these guys can go pick up a load of asphalt tar or something like that to do a minor
repair. It's not it's not to resurface the entire street because there's no way we're going to resurface any street for $7,500. So >> So, >> right, just just want to make sure you're getting close to the 7500. Just a yes or no would be would be fine.
>> That 111 11 is a $2,000. I was just waiting for Mr. Lour to answer. >> Yeah. Are you close to that 7500? >> Uh, you know, >> I'm at I'm at a loss to give you an
answer. I I I I really don't know. I can't I can't speak to that. La >> last year, the major driver for for that was an Osborne guide rail repair that cost nearly $3,000. That was the major item last year in in that. Um, so it's
an on as as needed basis. Um, I'm guessing that was an emergency repair on Osborne. >> Well, yeah, Osborne has is a dead end and guard rail was replaced as as we are
in the process of replacing one on Ferris the bottom of Ferris Stanford. So, you know, again, I I don't know why we spent what we spent last year. I've only been in the position for a little
while, and I can't I I can't say with any certainty what if we're going to make it to 7500. >> Okay. So, but you're actually replacing a guardrail on the bottom of Ferris. So, that's probably going to be about three grand, same as last year.
>> Yeah, it's a little bit It's a little bit more work. It's on a hill. It's on a curb. more safety issues would be closing this probably have to close the street off or with cops. >> The other one was on a dead end. >> Okay, that's uh I'm not going to make a
motion on that. Thank you, Mr. Lour. I'm finished. >> Council President. >> Yeah. No, the only one I saw too was 111. Uh line item 111. Um the ask is 5,000. Last year's asked
5,000. You spent about three. I mean there's extra 2,000 in there. I didn't Again, same question. >> If you think that last year we didn't have a snowstorm like we had this year. We have more potholes this year we're experiencing than we ever did. So I would just if you want to cut it, that's
the pleasure of the council. But we haven't really seen all the uh the blossoming in our roads. that if you go right out here on this 280 Mount Pleasant Avenue, >> you know. >> Okay, I'm good. >> Yeah. Councilwoman Rubin, did you have it? >> Um, what would you like?
>> I I on everything that was just brought up, I would like to see some cuts made in each of those items that were that were just requested. So, um, I'd like to I would have initially suggested taking two out of Stone Road and Kerosene. I
understand we have potholes, but we spent nothing. So, I think taking out taking out 1,500 from that seems reasonable. So, I'd like to make a motion to take out 1500. If anybody wants to counter with a different number, that's fine.
>> I'll give I'll give you a thousand to a,000. >> Yeah. 111. I make a motion to to remove 1,00. >> I'll second that. to remove 1,000. Cast uh Councilwoman Castle. >> Wait, I have discussion.
>> Oh, so sorry. >> So, last year we spent 5,000. >> No, >> 496. >> Less than three. >> 296750. >> That's why I don't want to go 15. It's
too high. And I'm not going to touch the other line items, just so you know. Now, Councilwoman, I'll be okay with thousand there, but I'm going to leave the other line items. >> Okay, let's have the vote. >> Okay. Councilwoman Castelino, >> yes. >> Councilman Koviaak, >> no. >> Councilwoman Ruden,
>> yes. >> Councilwoman Williams, >> no. >> Council President Scarpa, >> yes. >> The motion carries. >> Okay. >> Go ahead. Councilwoman Ruden, you have the floor. >> Okay. Um, for street resurfacing, I just
want to follow up on what was previously said. We we have spent nothing to date and mo most of our street resurfacing is done by outside contractors. So, I would like to remove two 2,000 from this
budget. >> So, I make a motion to remove 2,000. And I'm sorry, what line item was that? >> Line item 200 for street resurfacing. I can't 2000. No second. >> Okay. All right. Um, do you you want to do you have anything else before I call
up Seb? >> No. Okay. >> I don't know if I missed it. 136. Did you pass it? >> No, we didn't get there yet. >> We are not held on board. Oh, Mr. Kobe. Council
>> not Mr. Yes. Unless unless something happened and I didn't know alone. >> Councilman Kakovia. Go ahead. >> No, that that's all I had. That's all I had. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes. >> Council President, if we could go to page 134, um, Department 7506,
parking facilities. Um, the ask is $2,950. Uh, it's what we pay in our rent to New Jersey Transit. Um, if we could okay this page or
ask um the CBAB if they have any comments on this page and then we can move past it. >> Okay. >> Okay. Good. We're done. Another one. >> Do we need to make a motion? >> I'm sorry. >> Know what that is? parking facilities. Uh the Mississippi lo the rent where the
why do we think of rent? >> Uh transit owns it. New Jersey Transit owns it. >> Part of part of that lot >> parking lot they own it. >> The lot is it's it's I don't know the exact amount but there was several spaces that really don't belong to the
way that the property line was. So, in order to square off the parking lot, I think years ago, I don't know when this was um we rent that. We rent it could be one three five I don't know. >> Yeah. Okay. See, this is where I'm challenged.
>> $4,000 here and $4,000 there, but we're willing to keep $3,000 and we don't know what it's for. >> It's like a quart. It's a quarter of the lot. >> Yeah, it's a portion of the lot. I don't know the exact dimension. >> It's a sizable portion. you can pay this. >> Can we find out before we approve this?
Can I get clarity on how many spaces it is? If it doesn't make sense for us to pay them $3,000, why if it's three spaces? >> I mean, it's >> it was done by resolution I think back in 2022 was the most recent resolution.
So, uh it's resolution >> 32122. >> I mean, it could be five spaces that we're paying 3,000. you do you need all the spots there? >> Um maybe we don't. It depends on what the charge is. If it's three spots and we're paying $3,000 for three spots,
then maybe we don't need the spot. >> I know. >> Again, let's get the information. I agree with that, but I think it's a little more >> we don't have to disagree. We want the >> 321 32122. >> And thank you for bringing that to our
attention because I just didn't know what it was. I just assumed it was. >> Okay. So, should we have um CBA any other recommendations on DPW? >> Um I we can go through each page and
then >> if they want to come up. >> Okay. >> Right. >> We we we didn't do page 136. >> Okay. >> No, I know. I know. We're we're doing 134 and then we're going to move to >> Wait. So So here's where I'm confused now. Are we doing the whole section at
one time moving it or at the >> Makes sense to go page by page by >> page? Yeah. Um, >> so are we caught up, madam clerk, because have we been doing that all along? >> We're good on 135. >> No, I know that's now you have to go >> because we said we were going to go back,
>> but we don't have anything. >> We don't have anything to cut. We don't have previous the previous pages. >> I'm not saying I guess I'm not saying to do the whole like do we approve the page? It's like, do you want to move on to the next page and just go in sequence order so that >> CBAT can make their comments and
>> let's Yeah, let's do 136. >> Are we going to consent on each page? >> That is up. I I thought that the council did not want to consent. >> I think we might need to go back. >> Yeah, >> we would have we need to digest it. Okay. >> Point of order. How are
>> you going to consent on any of the pages that we know that there's not going to be on any any issues moving forward? like CBP doesn't have any commentary. We've already, you know, >> but what if there is a motion at the end
and we say we're going to do um something different and it may be something we've already voted on, then we have to resend that vote. I agree. >> So, again, if we can just >> Well, you want to get through the budget, but we do, but I don't want us coming back. Yeah. Yeah, I think we
>> have to come back and undo things if we want. >> Yeah, we need to digest it too. >> Okay, digest it. >> Okay, so are we on 136? Where are we, Mr. Tinia? >> So, the next next uh department is 7502
salt fluoride and plowing. Um this is what we spoke about earlier in that um this is where we have our snow removal services are um uh salt purchasing
and uh like I said it's sort of damage has been done. This paid charge is what we've we've actually paid for snow removal. Um the ask is for 3.1 million, an increase of uh 2.2 million over last year's
budget. >> Okay. >> Crazy. Of >> Hold on. CBA has Oh, >> yeah. >> What page are we on? >> Yeah. >> What page is this?
page 136 on the >> no public doc. >> Before CB goes, can I just say one thing? I just looked up the the agreement with NJ Transit. We have evidently signed a 5-year uh five-year um lease and this is the charge. I don't
think you can break a lease. >> And this lease runs through July 31st, 2027. It is for 20,000 some odd square 20,250 square f feet for parking lots, metered parking lots that we use right now. And this is a there's a contract
through the end of next year, next I mean the middle of next year, July 31st, 20 27. I could send you the resolution and the supporting document. >> I I'd just like to know what that is really. I know I I understand, but we're
going to have to renew this contract in 2027. Okay. So, we need to understand how many spaces that is really. >> I don't know. I know it's the the square footage. I don't know how many spaces that transposes to. >> It's 20,000. >> Dab should probably
move that out. >> But that's what that's for though. We've been renting it since it says since 2012. >> Are they going to pave their part that thing? >> Yeah, I mean that's what I'm saying. Like that parking lot is crazy and we're paying to lease it. I mean,
>> yeah, we have to look at that. >> I will send I will send it to you and it explains everything's uh maintenance, uh, repair, security, all that's in here. Alteration, addition, improvement, compliance with the law, even >> a paid parking lot. The meters don't work. >> That's on us cuz it's hard. >> No, it's not our meters. If it's their
parking lot, >> it's their necessarily. >> Well, part of it's not everything's meter, but anyway. >> Okay. I'm sorry. >> Okay. Let's move forward. See back. Just briefly on that point, the citizen budget advisory board recommends you
find out how much your revenue you're generating from the meters, if at all. >> So, okay. Uh, page 136. So, there's a couple of questions here. Um, and I think I know the answer to this, but
because it's a seab question, I just want to present it so that maybe you can provide clarity. Um, how much of the snow removal and salt was spent to help the board of education? I was at the council meeting,
so I heard your answers, but I uh, so the board of education approached us. Um, it was the Friday before that real big snowstorm that we had and um, we were able to set them up with some of our
outside vendors. The original plan, I think, was going to be that we we assumed we'd be build by our outside vendor and then we would have to go back to the the board of education for reimbursement. The outside vendor actually wound up just building the board of education directly for plowing
and salt. So, they they kept us out of it. So, uh we didn't have to like front the money to the vendor and then get it back from the BOE. So, it it didn't cost us anything. And were there any additional costs as a result of the vendor being unavailable to the township?
>> The vendor had separate drivers to do just such uh parking lot clearing, not not the drivers that were working for us. >> Thank you. >> So they had a whole separate crew. >> Thank you. And then uh just one more question on uh line 110 snow removal. Um
there was some question with the SABA around um state of emergency declarations and the ability to open budgets that are not available except during state of emergency and we wanted to know if that was applicable here in the township.
>> So because we don't have a budget um for 2026 and we're operating on a temporary budget, we have of course exceeded it. Um, so had it been later on in the year and we were with an adopted budget, we would
have to do that emergency resolution. Um, but we have included all of the charges so far um that we incurred in 26 in this introduced budget. So,
it's we're we're making sure that we we we are including everything we've paid. It's not like I'm trying to hide any of it and say like even though we've spent 2.7, I'm only going to budget 2 million. But had it been later on in the year and we would have been adopted. Yes, we
would have had to do a resolution for exceeding these or we would have had a deferred charge at the end of the year. So, >> so I think it's the recommendation of the citizen budget advisory board that you look into some sort of emergency funding budget for a portion of that so
that it's not coming out of the uh 2026 budget. Thank you. >> So, the the other the other thing that some towns many towns do is they maintain a trust which they used to call it the snow removal trust.
>> Oh, last year. Um and and then it became a a broader category of storm recovery trust. And towns that would budget extra money, you know, let's say they budgeted a million dollars for their snow removal, but they only spent 500, they would say,
"Okay, I'm going to take the remaining 500 and put it in this trust, the rain, a rainy day fund." Essentially, the township of West Orange, to my research, has never had a snow removal trust. doesn't have a storm recovery trust, has never put money aside. Um,
that's one of my recommendations is that we start to do that. Now, can we is this the year to do it? Obviously not. We spent so much there's nothing extra. But in the future, we'd have to commit to funding um,
you know, OE that potentially we can put aside for for that rainy day. That's >> so going back to uh when M Bennett brought up the school district and I'm I'm glad I know it's easier that
they paid their own bill which which was good but if they didn't they didn't have their bid for that bill had it I mean for the contracts to begin with >> shouldn't they they know they rejected the bids. So now are we in a situation
because they're piggybacking off of us? Like how like shouldn't they have bid that out? >> Whatever >> I thought we were going to have to pay it and then they would reimburse us. >> Whatever purchasing decision that they made is is for them to make on their
own. >> We don't have an issue. >> We we simply introduced them to a vendor. >> Okay. and and what they ended up doing was a deal with with a vendor between the board of education and and that vendor. >> Okay.
>> Technically, that should have been bidded out. >> Yeah. Councilwoman, >> so is there a possibility or I don't know how it works, so I'm asking the question. If we were to bid and include that in a bid, would it be a or do we know would it be a discounted charge
because it's a bigger area? Is does it work that way? I I just don't know. >> It it it it might um we would have to just see. We would have to see what what the the biders would would send in. Would it be
more attractive to have more properties to bid on? Maybe. Maybe. But I I mean I get getting to do like I think you said it was a twothirds like twothirds of a town is pretty attractive too. and is it leading to a reduced rate that I don't
know I think coming back to what we said about casting that wider net um my hope is that you know maybe there is a vendor in Hunan County that says I can do this I have the trucks I have the manpower I can get to West Orange and I can do it
for$225 an hour $200 an hour um that that is my hope and again nothing I don't want to make it seem like I'm disparaging any of our vendors. I think they did a tremendous job with record storms. Um
the hope is though that we can get a a better price. >> Um and I'm again not accusing anyone of >> price gouging or anything like that. I believe that companies set their prices based on their expenses and their capital investment because obviously
they're buying trucks and and and it's a lot to do the work here. So, um, but we could see what it looks like. Is it more attractive to add those properties? And then, of course, we would need some sort of shared service agreement with the school.
>> Okay. Councilwoman Ruden. >> Um, do any of the vendors use our our salt? >> Both our vendors are supplied with our salt. >> Okay. So, when the board of ed used our vendor, did they also use our salt? And
did they pay us back for the salt that they used >> at that moment? The vendors had their own supplies of salt. They didn't use our salt. Uh they didn't use our salt for the school jobs. They have each one
of them had a pile of their own salt for other jobs that they do because they didn't just plow for us. They they have contracts with Satan Hall University. They have contracts with uh other
places. Shopright per se, they use their own salt when it came down to dealing with the board event. >> Okay. >> Yeah, both companies have sizable yards and while they may not have the tonnage that we can max out at,
>> they keep a lot. We >> It's It's part of uh what we negotiated on. There's salt in our streets. They they they use our salt. Okay. Can we check off this page? >> Oh, I don't know. Is everything >> See, Bab, you don't have anything on
this page, right? On 136. >> They just talk. >> Okay, let's move on. >> We'll see. >> Um, so the next uh category here is department 7503, street cleaning and
drainage. Um, the ask last year was for $64,16. We spent $35,313. We are asking this year for 41,200, a reduction. Um, and so far this year,
we've paid or charge $10,826. >> Anybody? >> Excuse me. I I've been asked by my street supervisor, we've already expended 67% of our budget for our sweeper brooms. We have another threequarters of the year to go. I can
only imagine it's we're going to need more brooms. So, I he asked me if I would uh ask for another $2,000 because we will need sweeper brooms. We have two sweepers, rear broom and two
side brooms each. And uh they will certainly we will certainly go through the money that we have here now. >> Well, we just I move that we um >> Yeah, we just took a thousand. We >> I move that we give you $2,000 for this sweep of booms as your prayer requests.
>> I'll second. Is there discussion? >> Yeah, now there is. I second it. >> Okay. So, um on line item 112, you're you requested um snow plow attachment. There was also a previous request for equipment which
I'm not sure if that also included snowplow uh and an earlier on an earlier page. >> Can you swap some of the money out from there >> so that you can get your 2,000? >> I think you're already spent. >> Yeah, we already spent
>> snow plow. >> Yeah. >> Did was that was that actually spent or encumbered? >> Let me pull that up. Give me one second. I can pull that up. By the way, the New Jersey transit contract, >> all the maintenance on us.
>> My point what it's for, >> send that to all of us tomorrow. >> Yeah, we already paid this one. >> We bought uh plow blades and rubbers
from local equipment for for the 4,496. That's paid. Yeah, >> that's already. >> Yes. Okay. And for the safety gear that >> was that encumbered >> uh safety gear is encumbered. >> Okay. So what has actually been spent with
>> that's road safety supplies that's with WW Granger. We haven't spent anything. >> Then I would like to reduce that budget and bring it over to you. Is that is that >> just understand that um we are required
as the township and the department to supply safety gear whether it's goggles, ear protection, gloves, boots, raincoats. So I I don't don't know exactly how much it will cost to restock the shelves, but
it may be $2,500. That's a that's a you know I have 23 guys. It's >> barely $100 a man. >> Okay. Can we call the vote on this one? >> Second. I call the vote >> for the the brooms. I'd like to suggest
that it not be $2,000 for the brooms. >> That I would add in another thousand,000. >> We need to call a vote on the >> We have a motion for 2,000. >> Vote it up or down. Have to have discussion about how you're going to vote yourself.
>> Line 111. is uh to add additional $2,000. Councilwoman Castelino, >> yes. >> Councilman Koviaak, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden, >> no. >> Councilwoman Williams, >> yes. >> Council President's Glass. >> Okay, the motion carries. I was very excited how the streets street my street
today. >> People love the street sweep. Like, look, there's some things that are away. >> Okay. Is there any other discussion on 138? >> No, let's move to the next. >> Moving right along. Council President, did you want to ask the >> CBA?
>> Did you Did CBA have anything on 138? >> 138. >> 138. Yes. >> Street cleaning and drainage. >> Okay. Keep this moving for firemen. >> 140. >> 140. We did, right? >> Did 140.
>> We can go to 142, which is signed. That's >> Anybody have anything on signs? >> Good on signs and no. >> Um, yes. I have a question. What has actually been spent to date? There we go with signs everywhere. So,
we're going to have >> down and so >> I mean, we got some street signs that need to be replaced. You can't see where they are. >> I mean, it may not be a priority and they may not have spend it yet, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be done. There are plenty of street signs that need to be replaced.
>> All these ordinances, too. >> And yeah, and we have ordinances that are changing. So, >> so we've spent so far $4,377.50. We spend too much on signs. >> Okay. >> I mean, we we we spend it, but it's just ridiculous.
>> Does Cabb have anything on signs and posts or can we move? >> Okay. Thank you. So, uh, safe street grants, will the construction create additional signage expenses and will some be
covered and is there any overlap? >> Anything in the grant would be put in what the director director Kvalo would I would I would ask that question when director Kala comes in with the engineering. >> Yeah, we're not >> that she she includes all those things into into her.
>> Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Great. So, >> and those grants were not seen for a couple years. >> So, we're on to 143, right, Mr. Duteniac? >> Oh, I have a question on 143. >> Yes, council president. Sanitation and pumping services. Um,
we asked for 6455 last year. We spent 4,85 and 25 and we're asking for 6,400 this year. >> Councilwoman Castelino, go ahead. >> Just so the the toilet rentals, I saw that. I'm not going to squeeze you too
hard there. Just curious um where are no pun intended but uh is that where are they are they for like the street fair and events or just job sites? >> They could be very very few sites we go to are job sites. Most of the port johns
we have out are under the recreation budget at a couple of department. >> Oh that's right. That's correct. >> Uh Redwood. >> Yeah. High school. >> The high school has three or four of them. Okay. >> Can we take that out? >> No. No.
>> No. No. I'm I'm I'm a little different. >> Here's the downside. >> Well, do you need to go up 500 on it or did you Because we only spent 616. >> Again, those are in the recre we can't >> Got it. >> The recreation department does necessary
at the parks because >> because there's no facilities. >> There's no facilities. >> Uh God's honest truth. I don't know. Uh, >> you spent six, but I spent 615. It could have been uh last year's
parade. We We do get eight eight for the parade. >> So, I don't think even though I do a budget for the parade, I don't think I ever see any of that money back. So, I'm I'm I'm pretty sure it was at least 615 for parade day.
>> Okay. Councilwoman Ruth, >> did u Mr. Deniac, did we spend it this year? >> This year we have encumbered. >> I I mean actually spent, not encumbered. >> Well, encumbered means he needs it. Effecting.
>> True. >> Yeah. So, we haven't spent anything as of today. We have encumbered Oh, talking to the mic. We have encumbered $2,000 with Johnny on the spot, >> but we have not spent anything. Yeah.
>> Yes. >> Does that mean that the bill maybe from the parade might not have been submitted as yet? >> No. I I'll explain to you exactly what happened. >> Okay. >> The company, United Sight Services, which we contract with every year as we do with the parks, um they forgot to
deliver my portagons. How? So, in the midst of a Friday or Saturday night conversation with Sheila Roth, I'm sorry, Sierra Le Paresi, uh, we didn't have any port John, so I had to steal them from all the parks. >> Okay.
>> And I put them out. So, we won't be getting a bill for that. >> Okay. >> That's not normal. >> You can make up your money. That's what we gave them. I make a motion to remove the $2,000 from the portable toilet rental in 1119 since it was not used and it will not be used and we have the
Johnson that we need >> next year. Next year, but we're in 2026. The >> street fair. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. >> How many do you need for the street fair? >> Um, four. >> Sprill has not gave me all her wants and needs yet, so I'm not sure.
>> How much how much was used last year for the street fair? There's a couple there. They put them. >> Can we just um move this line so you get an opportunity to check with Miss >> I can hazard to guess that we had at least six to eight. >> A couple who will handicap and
>> there was a whole row of >> a lot of people. It's could be eight. Could be eight. >> And how much is that for a one day event? Yeah. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> Then I want to hold on this until we get an exact number. Okay. Can we get All right.
>> So, can we go to 145? >> Okay. >> Yeah. I don't know. >> I'm good on that page. >> 145. >> Everybody else get out there. >> Yeah. We're moving right along. >> Um, >> does CBA want to council president? I'm sorry. >> See, no. CBA didn't have anything on
that page, did it? >> Next page. Do you have anything on 145? >> Yeah, that's where we're going. Okay. >> Uh, the central voters. uh this is department 7902 central automotive um >> this was from last year this we spent
that was >> we budgeted >> $595,000 we had to spend $699 so we required a budget transfer to cover it uh we are asking for $66,000 and uh $66,850
um for this year and uh we've spent so far I say spent but paid or charged So there's incumbrances here of $344,000. >> So you took out it went down to $417. >> We went to $66,000. >> That's what the the budget ask is for
this year. >> It's on the bottom. >> Okay. We originally we're looking at 656. Yeah. >> Counciloman Castle. >> No, because you went down. That was my question. You went down on the recommended budget. You had a budget request and then you went down.
>> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. Council colleagues, anybody have anything on this page? >> No. >> No. >> We spent enough time last year as >> the kinder, gentler. Seb, Mr. Diniac >> wants to point out auto parts again. I
know that's one of your favorite subjects from last year. That's what I >> um so uh just pointing out that last year I think we were upwards of 600,000 but the actual spend was 418. Um we noticed that you've reduced by 50,000
and we wanted to thank you for that. Uh line item 150 tires and tubes. It looks like you're um recommending a budget about 10,000 over your actual spend last year. We'd recommend considering a change to that. We'd recommend
considering a change to line item 152. Um it's it appears as though your budgeting request is about double what you spent last year. So perhaps an adjustment there. And line item 157. Um
it looks like your actual spend last year was a third of or just over a third of what you're requesting this year. So we'd recommend if you'd consider a change to that as well. Thank you. Will you explain it?
>> Um so um one 15 uh tires and tubes. Let me address that one first. 150. >> Um so our payer charged is is 8,651.
We have 20 actually $20,000 encumbered now. Um, are we going to use the whole thing? I'm not really sure, but I I think of Central Automotive as just as a whole. Um, so it's tough to just change sub
accounts. Um, so right now the payer charged is actually 28651 because there's a $20,000 encumbrance. I can't say for certain that we're going to spend the whole 20,000 or if we're going to spend the whole 46,000.
It's it's it's just hard to say. I I can't I can't plan for how many tires they're going to need throughout the year. >> Um I will say though that the the 152 the glass we have spent. Um
>> Yeah. And I'm going to go to the actual >> Yeah. 12774. >> Yeah. That's one that >> just through March. It's crazy. we have in we have spent like dollars out the door is $5,000 and then we have encumbered another $7,770
something dollars. Um so I I probably wouldn't recommend cutting that one. Um >> same thing 157 >> and 157 that is >> spent 72,000 already. It's It's on one of the fire engines.
>> They're in the back dying to tell us the story. >> So, do you know which engine that is? The big $72,000 that diesel engine >> four. >> I'm sorry I'm yelling in the back of the room. We We have engine 4 had
significant work done on it >> um to the tune of like I said $72,000. We spent that already. That's that's already been spent. >> Okay. >> Ford is a 20-y old vehicle. >> It was bought bought with engine one at
the same time and just they're they're they're aging. Now, you know, I'm not going to steal a Chief's Thunder, but I kind of know because I bought engine four and engine one. So, >> that's I was the one who purchased them and they were twins they were twin sisters that they were built simultaneously. And
um >> and a dump truck crashed into it on >> and a dump truck crashed into an back in 2018. >> So um so these vehicles are they're they're getting past their service life. So to I'm not surprised it's $72,000.
I'm actually shocked it's not more. >> Mhm. I'm inclined to to leave everything put because we're we're not buying any new vehicles this year. Am I correct in that statement?
>> I think so. >> Um, Mr. Koviaak, you have any thoughts on that? >> On what specifically, Council President? >> On this line item um 150 with the tires and tubes. I >> I do I >> uh No, I unless there's a real
discrepancy, I I tend to go with what they what they recommend. Yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Yes. It's a 19% increase and you've hardly spent any of it so far. That's not to say that we shouldn't leave you with a nice cushion, but this is this is
a very big cushion. So, I would like to propose to reduce this by 4,000. >> Which line item? >> This is line item uh 150. >> Tires and tubes. Okay. I I just think
that's um not the recommendation from our supervisor as well as our CFOs. So I I don't want to support something that they believe is necessary >> given the age given the age of the equipment >> the age of the equipment I I just I
again we have to >> this is central automotive understand >> one thing I will before I turn it over to uh Mr. Lour I inappropriately called Mr. a little poor. I apologize. Um, >> so I don't know if I him or Lenny.
>> So, um, but, uh, one thing I learned this year with the storms and I know from a personal experience with a lot of the snow, we went through a lot of tires because there's when there's a lot of snow out there, debris goes out in the road. We had a significant increase in
>> repairs and things to our vehicles. Some were tires, not all. My family experienced three flat tire hires in the that two months. So, we just it's as a result, but you know, it's I I want to turn over to the Lour again. He could tell you a little
supervisor. >> All right. Uh this isn't going to sound well to you guys. Uh he's looking for uh to have that $50,000 back in the auto parts, but I I digress. uh
the the amount we're asking for in tires, we have to remember that every petroleum product as we speak is going up 10% a day. >> Absolutely. >> That includes rubber. Um so we might
certainly get to the end of the year where we don't have any funds to purchase any more tires. And mind you, we buy the tires for every vehicle in our roster >> given the global issues.
>> So many of these tires are humongous. >> Um, as far as uh, you know, we're we're looking to to do, as I said before, more in-house work. I'm trying to ship out as few vehicles as possible. So whatever we
can do you know and that includes you know oil and and uh hydraulic fluid and stuff you know stuff to that and now we have new new kind of freon which is a fortune and for some
reason everybody can't drive without air conditioning so you know the uh the numbers I mean I I think the numbers are low for that end But I obviously know you have a job to do,
but so all I can do is ask and maybe a slight increase. Um, we have four employees who are contractually allowed to have vehicles for take-home. I would like an accounting and those four are the fire
chief, the police chief, and the animal control. I would like an accounting for every other vehicle that is being used by an employee because those cars are also getting a lot of wear and tear and tires.
Okay. And I'd like to and also like an accounting for for th for those vehicles um which of those vehicles required new new tires and also repairs. >> All right. Well, those are contractual.
So, can we >> can we move on to the next page? >> I'm good. Leaving it. Thank you for the 50. Yeah. >> Anything else? >> Okay. 147. >> This is uh sewer and pumping stations.
Um the ask this year is for 87,000. We spent $82,548 last year. This is for maintenance on our pump stations. >> Yeah, we know that on that side of >> we know our pump stations are are old and falling apart. I think we really
don't have that. Definitely one of the band-aid pages. >> Does any of my colleagues have anything on this? >> No. >> No. C Bab, do you have anything on page 147? >> Duct tape. >> So, I I I will say that um you know, we
do have some projects in place right now and and we'll be putting some new projects together to work on our pump stations. We did receive um congressional monies a couple years ago um for pump station and
fingers crossed we are in the running to get more money from Senator Booker. Yeah, we took Yeah, we took uh >> Cornwell. >> Yeah, >> now grab. >> So, we we are, like I said, in the
running, fingers crossed, for um for money from from Senator Booker for a pump station improvement project. Um >> how much >> and sewer? The ask is two and a half million. And right right now we're in the process
of uh changing one of our worst stations which is at uh across the street from the hospital. >> Okay. >> And that that's part and parcel of a million dollar grant that we're using and we're rebuilding it from scratch.
>> The pumps are failings and that's the that's the ticket. At every just about every one of the pumps stations, >> we have one at least one failing pump and motor. >> They're supposed to alternate. Sometimes they don't. They don't kick on when
they're supposed to. But again, we're doing in-house maintenance where we're cleaning out all the wet welds and trying to provide as little friction as possible to get these get these things to continue working. >> Thank you for all you do. I think you've
done a great job. >> I think it's time for Mr. Veio Captain >> Fire Chief. >> Okay. >> I want to thank Mr. Leapour and M for showing up tonight. >> Great job.
>> Both of you did a great job. >> And and listen, I know you got thrown in the fire very quickly. >> Yeah. >> With your position. Thank you. You have been performing. Thank you for all you do >> in house.
>> Okay, sweet. I just want to get yours president um >> third >> while he's coming to the uh the table here. I want to introduce fire chief Anthony Beckio. >> This will be his last budget presentation. So, I want to thank and
his time with us. Um I know that he's looking forward to nine o'clock and and June 1st. So, but um I just want to thank him for all his years of service and then coming here to sit by and I know what a chore it could be to put a fire budget
together. So, welcome Chief for your last one and then have fun. >> Okay. >> Um they do the 18 >> point of order. >> Wasn't this supposed to be a 4 hour, not five? >> Oh, we said it from till 9:00. >> 9:00. We're here till 9.
>> We're not even doing the police. So, >> we're going to get fire. >> I thought we were stopping at 8. with how much 78. >> Sure. >> Just grab his mic. >> Before we get started, um, thank you for, uh, allowing us to come in here and
present this way. Uh, I wanted to introduce Deputy Chief Nick Gillow, who's here with me today. >> And, uh, Chief Gillow is the, uh, person sitting number one on our civil service, uh, chief's exam. So, >> okay. >> Likely my successor. Um, nothing's been
named, but uh, Chief Gill is good enough to be here because uh, maybe next year you'll be seeing him in this seat. So, >> it's going out. It can't be that everything I present to you all is for
Nick's benefit because I'm not going to be here. So, hopefully uh, you'll be amenable to everything that we talk about. So, >> I'm very page one. Sure, Council President, if it's okay, I'll start with um the salary and wages, just a quick
overview, and then obviously um Chief Eekio give a lot more color. Um so, we have a roster. Again, we've redacted the names for for the public, but you all have um the names uh in your own
versions of of the budget document. Um, so the fire uh has a a more complex compensation system than than what we looked at for DPW. Uh, it's some it pretty much mirrors what the police
department has. Uh, and if we're looking at at my salary worksheet here, I tried to spell out all the individual pieces um for for all the the uh the parties that are reviewing this budget document.
So, I list the position. So, we have two two collective bargaining units in the fire department. We have an FMBA which is rank and file firefighters and then we have a superior officers um union that covers the uh captains and
the deputy chiefs. Am I correct uh in that? >> And then um of course our fire chief would be unrepresented with the with the employment agreement. Um so similar to those uh collective
bargaining agreements and with our salary ordinance there's a base salary uh that the officers earn. There is a longevity package that is in effect for for both the um the uh rank and file and
the superiors. Uh longevity is 2 4 6 8 and 10%. There's a holiday pay which is 7% of base salary and that's because obviously the fire department does not close. It's 247 365. Um so our members
will work every holiday there is um we have some allowances for different uh specific roles in the fire department. You know when you get into fire administration there's an allowance there's an inspector. um
uh stipen that some qualified uh employees get. And then we have the 457b program. This is for newer hires that will not receive retirement health benefits. Uh they get 10 a.5% of their
their calculated salary, which would be their base salary plus longevity plus holiday pay. uh 10 10 and a half% of that is put into a deferred compensation plan on their behalf so that in retirement if they need to purchase
health benefits they can utilize that 457b money. It is not restricted to that. U but that was the intention when the contracts were negotiated back in 2021 eight was that when it went effect Yeah.
Um so that is for newer uh firefighters. Um, if we get down to the totals, um, we're asking for an overall increase
of $741,000. What drives that? Well, base salary is 289,000 and that is a a mix of the 3% COLA increase that our members received pursuant to their collective bargaining
agreement from 25 to 26 and the fact that many of our members are in what we call the steps. So, if you are in the steps, you're receiving a base salary increase due to that. And the base salary increase also has that 3% cola
Um there is an increase to non-uniform in that we have uh some non-uniform administrative personnel in the fire department. Uh holiday pay again goes up because as salary goes up and and 7% gets applied
to base salaries that holiday pay is going to increase. We have an increase in the amount of allowances based on again those that are are getting fire inspector licenses which we obviously want because it enables us to do the fire inspections that we need to do in
town. There's actually a decrease to longevity. So as as members retire and those members that might be at 10% are then replaced with the younger generation who don't receive longevity
until year five of their career. Um we can see a flux in that uh that longevity. The the big driver obviously is overtime in that um we had a an expenditure last year of of 1.4 million.
So, I'm requesting uh a million450 for the 2026 budget um to cover overtime. And in in a second, we'll look at sort of what we've spent in overtime. Now, um we have college credit uh for our
members. A more educated employee is a better employee. It's my opinion only, but I think many people feel that way. Uh, and then we have a clothing allowance, which again is contractual. If we look at
um overtime for for the fire department, >> uh, we're at 486,000 for the year so far. Um, and again, that's that's why I'm requesting that uh, million450
um, because of where we're at already with with overtime. Um if there's any questions about the salary and wage calculations or council >> Yes. Um Chief Beckio, thank you so much
for your service. Um I would like to know if you've considered any other um time schedule for your employees so that you would be working I forgot what it's called the 12-hour shift. >> That's that's for PD. That's >> just for PD, not
>> they work a 24 hours that there are other shifts that could be entertained in the fire service. There are different types of shift variations, but everything you're looking at right now >> is contractual. >> Okay. >> So that's why I we couldn't change that now anyway. So is it something that could be that could be discussed at contract negotiations? Okay.
>> Yes. But the only thing that that Mr. Datiniac presented that is something maybe outside of contract negotiations is overtime. And I'm prepared to to talk about overtaking. I'm sure that's a concern for you. But yeah, >> everything else that he mentioned is contractual until 2028 and that's when
you open the contract and you can change things if if the unions and the administration negotiate that. But until then, it's it's contractual. So, >> okay. >> So, Chief, can you can you give us an I can you explain to us um your overtime
needs and what ways you can see to cut this? what can you do differently to help cut the amount of overtime? >> So, I I do um again non-contractual things. So, we have a 17 person minimum staffing and I heard Mr. Dinak talk
about compare us to DPW. Um even the police don't have the minimum staffing like we have. So, what that means if you don't understand that it's that there have to be 17 people in operations any given day. So, um, most shifts are assigned when we're full staffing, which
we are right now. We have an academy class, so we're not truly at full staffing, but at full staffing, we have three tours of 21 people and one tour of 20 people. So, that means that at when when three
of those tours have um five people off, we're into overtime in order to satisfy minimum staffing. >> Okay? Mhm. >> If the one shift has four people off that only has 20, we have four people off and now we're into minimum staffing
because we dropped down to 16. >> Okay. And did I explain that? >> Yes. So I just have a question. So this uh the requirement that there be 17 at all times. Is that >> contractual? >> Contractual. So is that something that can be negotiated at the next contract? >> Yeah. I mean anything's negotiable.
>> Safety >> almost anything negotiable. >> Okay. and I've used them. >> So, >> okay. Are there other are there other fire departments that you know of that have less than 17 >> we're pretty consistent with with town
towns that are our size. And then when I say that, you know what's happening in Montlair? Um they went against the study. Unfortunately, a study came out that said they were understaffed and they went against it and chose to do what they did. Um but um Bloomfield,
Belleville, uh they're similar towns to us, similar staffing. Um South Essics, which is South Essics, South Orange and Maplewood, similar staffing. Um so we're we're pretty consistent. Uh >> okay. And and do they have the overtime that that we have?
>> They don't. And I'm going to get to that in a second. So uh in contract negotiations, uh for several years, the department took zeros. That's a thing that happens in negotiations. The administration doesn't want to give raises. So for those zeros, the other
side says, "Well, we we expect something for that if you're not going to give us a cost of living." So concessions were made. Days off were given. Um we used to have to you if you you wanted to use a personal day, you had to do it when
there was staffing available so as to not come into overtime. One of the things was what we call um personal days on demand, which means you can take off whenever you want. Um we didn't always have that. Uh and I'm sure if you track back 15 years ago, you would see the
difference in overtime once that came into effect. in addition to another um um piece of of um compensatory time which is part of the FLSA which is the labor law that we fall under. Uh when
you work an overtime shift uh you're entitled to either receive cash or or compensatory time for that up to a certain amount. You can then use that time whenever you want. Again, doesn't need doesn't mean we have staffing. You can use that time whenever you want. So
what happens is in theory someone works one shift, let's say a 10-hour day, and they make overtime. Well, they get 15 compensatory hours. Then they want to take off their next shift, their next regular shift. So now someone's got to come in and work 15 hours for the 15 hours they want, and that person gets 22
and a half hours. So it grows exponentially. Um, and again, that's that's federal law. >> Do you have a minimum of required hours for overtime? minimum and you take an like if somebody wants to go into overtime, do does it
have we have four hours? >> We have a 4-hour minimum by contract. >> Okay. >> I'm pretty sure all the I think all the labor unions have a 4-hour minimum. >> Um so that's the that's the primary driver. It's people take off. So there
could be a you know we have a 17 minimum as I said and some there could be a day could be Super Bowl Sunday. It's not a we have we have a handful of blackout days that they can't Christmas you you can only use your compensatory time if
you find somebody to work for you. You can use it and somebody's going to come in for overtime but you have to be able to find the person to come in because that's kind of a hardship to the town and based on the FLSA we we can exercise that. But on another
day, for example, a Super Bowl Sunday, um you know, you could have nine people who are supposed to work on that shift or or 21 people are supposed to work on that shift that day and and half the tour takes off. So then you everyone else is replaced with overtime. So it's
um that's that's pretty much what drives it. Now, back to your initial question is what do I do to try to rein in some of the overtime? I move people. I I try to set up every every year or or or half year. I look at our at our um you've
seen our organizational charts and I try to adjust based on people who I know are retiring and quite frankly might not be here for the last 3 months of their career. So I try to adjust so as to balance out those tours. So not one tour
automatically has 15 people every day and this one has 18. I'm going to put put somebody else on this shift. So at least it balances out. there's still going to be overtime, but those are the kinds of things I can do and I have the I have the right as the chief to do that. Um, and we still end up
unfortunately going over budget. So, um, yeah, that's where we are. >> Who identified the blackout days for the township? Is that contractual? Is that negotiated with the >> I think years ago, Chief Moraldo actually put out the days because the
way the the FLSA is written, it says um uh I don't it says it's it I'm using the word hardship, but it certain days where we can't like we can't use overtime as a reason for denying someone a day off, but we can make it we can we can um um
determine a specific day where we might have trouble staffing and then that becomes a hardship. So that's why those specific days, you can still use your compensatory time, but you have to find somebody to work for you because on Christmas, nobody wants to work on Christmas. So unless you find somebody,
you can't put it on the department to have to find somebody because then all of a sudden we have on Christmas day, we have 16 people and we have no one to come in for overtime. Um then you have to hold >> then we hold people and hold people who don't want to come. We have a we have a requirement. So, so those who ball out
and we can't get that uh those people for replacement somebody's getting help which becomes problem especially you know with holidays. So that was one of the things that I did address with the unions at the time said look they came to me because somebody called out sick and somebody got held on Christmas I said just because it's secular doesn't
mean any bearing on me at this day. I understand why it's unfortunate for that person but this one day from another out of the 365 if you guys want to police that we can work together. So we came up with a list collectively with the unions to figure out those blackout dates. So
and I think it's like a half dozen or whatever whatever the number is. Um and so that's how we work together to make sure that that doesn't happen again for certain individuals. >> So it is in the contract >> policy the blackout are policy >> blackouts policy but the the ability to
use FLSA it is the federal law. off. So, >> I just want to also add that um just for clarification and for anybody watching at home, the West Orange Fire Department also manages runs the ambulance. >> Yes. >> So, it's not >> Yeah.
>> It's not just fire. It's I mean, how many calls are you getting? >> One of two agencies in Essex County that it's a firebased EMS, us and Belleville. And we've collected, I think last year in revenue 1.7 million. Yeah. >> In in return money. So, we're one of the
few departments that brings money back in. It doesn't pay for the cost of the EMS service, but it helps offset the cost of EMS service. >> I want to say that worth every cent. Go ahead, C. Councilwoman Castelino. >> So, last year you came in and you and to
your credit, you cut overtime by a significant amount because you had new hires and you were going to get them up and going. And then and I know it's impossible to figure yeartoear now this year obviously yet you took away too
much. Is that the case? >> Well I I took away too much. Okay. >> But I think if we look at 2024 versus 2025 we're down in overtime. >> We are >> um and and the hope is that you know we can stay flat
>> based on where we are so far. But yeah, you know, we we took a little bit too much from 2025 >> cuz I remember almost a million dollars >> versus 2024 the overtime costs were a lot more. >> So also I and I' I said this last year
as well when when someone takes an overtime shift, they can ask for that their compensation to be in time. >> Yeah. >> Or which gets banked >> or in dollars. >> Um that can change too >> and use though, right?
>> No, no, no. You're talking vacation. That's this is time that they worked. So, it's their they've earned the money that money and this is this is uh it used to be there was no and they've changed it. It's now 480 hours. So, as you get people who have accumulated more
up to that 480, well, now they're going to start to they take cash. So, um it's it's hard to manage that. Uh and then again, like I said, often they'll take the time and then they'll use the time. It really depends on the on the person. So >> So So now you have six new hires coming
in. They're in the academy now or they're going or >> Correct. They're in the academy now. >> And well, I'll talk more about it when we get into operating, but um Okay. >> And we plan on having another five or six in September. So >> yeah. >> Um it's called training, but why there's
such a significant jump in our ask for this year because we're we hired one last year. We're hiring. >> So wait, so it's how many in the fall? another minimum five, maybe six >> in the fall. >> In the fall. >> Good. Well, everybody's retired. >> Yeah. So, um
>> Yeah. So, that's where we are. Okay. >> But back to salary and anything else. >> I have a question. So, um your overtime is based on the pensionable rate, not the base salary. Is there some way that
you can help us by paying out the longevity or the holiday pay in one or two um time frames rather than included in the salary? So that >> that's a HIM question. >> Can we do that so that we can we can
have the overtime based on what the salary is, not the pensionable salary. We couldn't just do it without going to the unions and it would be a negotiated item and there I don't think any union would would go along with it. We would have to we would have to give something
for that and it would have to be very valuable. >> Um >> are there other townships that do that? >> There are other townships that they treat longevity differently. It's not part of base salary. It doesn't become pensionable. They might pay it out quarterly. They might pay it out once a
year. It might be a flat amount instead of it being a percentage based on salary, but all of those things are negotiated. Um, so in 2028 when our contracts run out um well in 2028 or end
of 2027 there is going to be negotiating um for all of the contracts with maybe the exception of ask since they have that extra year. Um, these can be all aspects, but I will say based on my experience and I know everybody up here would say they are going to be
monumental things to change. >> Kovia, go ahead. >> I just had a question about uh 457bs. Uh, just so people people who don't know know, it's deferred income that is in addition to your base salary.
>> Correct. So, the way that the 457B program works for for the FD and also PD because um you know we will get to that at some point. Uh when they negotiated the contract, they said for new hires
and I never forget the effective date, February something, 2022, whatever the signing date was, anybody hired after that would not be eligible for lifetime retired benefits. Now, we know that many
um police and firefighters can retire after 20 years. So, they tend to retire at a younger age. Not this guy, but um they can retire at a at a younger age. So, that retiree health benefit is much more expensive in that when they retire,
they are no longer contributing chapter 78. So, we would be bearing the full cost of of them. Other employees that that still have lifetime retiree benefits, whether they're in DPW or in any of the other departments, are
usually retiring at an u advanced age. Um, and and >> social security comes into play. Please buy don't we don't get social. So, that's that's a big >> that that's a whole another thing. Yes. That they don't they don't qualify for social security. they don't pay into it
and they don't get it. And there's been some changes in the last couple years, but for the most part, yeah, the police and fire do not get social security. Um, they just get their their their pension. But employees that retire at a later
age, you know, will spend less time at a non-medicare insurance plan and then when they go to Medicare, the cost significantly drops for them. So, why am I saying all this? I guess at the time um the the administration thought it would be
better to pay on an annual basis during that particular employees career then bear the legacy costs of what could healthcare be in 20 years in 25 years and we will see if that was truly the
right decision at some point later on in the future. But the way the 457b works is the the employee will get 10 and a half% of that calculated salary. It's not just base salary. It's the base
salary plus longevity whenever that new employee becomes eligible for longevity. It's it's the addition of the holiday pay um and and any other pensionable stipen. So you would take all those numbers together and add it up. So,
we'll I'll give you a quick example. You know, Joe Smith is making $80,000 base salary. He gets 10,000 for his holiday pay and he gets uh uh another 10,000 for longevity and stipens. So, he's 100,000.
You multiply that by 10.5%. So, now we're going to give an additional 10,500 and put it into a 457b plan for that employee. Their total compensation is 110500.
Their pensionable base upon which in police and fire they contribute 10% is the 110500. The overtime rate and I don't know if this is from the collective bargaining agreements or if it's uh fair labor standards act. The pensionable rate um
the OT rate is based on all of those items added up. So the OT rate is based on that 110500. >> I get it. >> I know I said a lot, but >> no, the the is is there any way to to pull out the 457b?
>> It's negotiated. It's contraction from the from the total amount. >> So we we I did a I did a a calculation for every employee listed on and you could even see it up there what we've spent so far for for firearm in terms of 457b.
Um, I did pull it out for every single individual that is entitled to it and it goes against a separate line item. So, it's not part of the base salary of the fire department SNW. It sits in a statutory line that's specifically for
457b. I think just just to follow up I I know you were trying to read my mind but I I also want to just flag you mentioned chapter 78 which for those who don't know it's a state law that requires on a
sliding basis contributions by public employees for their healthcare cost. >> Correct. >> So I just want to throw that out there. What I was wanted to know is uh how a an employee can get a 457b
contribution well in excess of whatever the either the base or the pensionable salary can be in a particular year. >> So how could that happen? So the 457b
is the the contribution that we make cannot exceed what the federal limit is for the 457b. We have not hit that point yet where new hires
that are part of that 457b program have exceeded that maximum. >> Is it a cumulative or annual? >> Annual. We have we have individuals that they are allowed to contribute beyond the max because they're of a certain age
and they're a certain number of years away from retirement. >> So they can Excuse me for interrupting. Just I want to cut this short. So in other words, they can decide to take some of their base compensation and put it towards a 457b. >> Everybody can do that. Yes, >> everybody can do
>> you can only go >> over and above the 10 and a half% up to the limit. It's similar to 40, not 401ks, but uh >> IAS. >> It's It's similar to a 401k or um a 403b for the the school employees. >> Um
>> No, that's fine. I I just wanted to to be sure that that's what happened because there's a there's a big number in the in the budget and if anybody sees it, then they now they understand >> that and that's the employer contribution. The employee contribution, you know, that's that's up to you. If you want to contribute, anybody here can
join one of our 457 planes. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Um, are we Oops. Now we got to go. >> One second. >> Um, can we talk about the clothing allowance? >> It's contractual. >> But I I understand, but it it's what we
spent is actually less than what was budgeted and there won't be any more spending in that area. >> So, it it >> Yeah, it could be because somebody left or they got pr-rated. you know, maybe they started late or they left early. So, there's there's there's prorating
that happens with the clothing allowance because you're intended that you're there for the full year. >> What's that? >> But the clothing allowance that was spent was spent was based on every every single person who has who receives it. >> Correct.
>> Is it going to what was spent was 729. So, is it going to go above that to >> No. Clothing allowance is 773 last year, >> right? But this year >> Oh, yes. This year we've calculated it out to be 729. Yes.
>> So, isn't there room for savings right there? >> Um >> $7,000 of savings. >> You have 12 new people, >> I guess. But if if we have new employees that might get some >> that willing allowance >> be $7,000 >> it would be prrated anyway. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. We I you're right. We did calculate it out to be 729. I we could >> Right. That's Yeah. That's that's that's with the new number. Yeah. >> Yeah. So,
>> yes, it could be it could be cut. >> Okay. So, um what do you recommend? >> 729 is what we calculated it out based on the >> the membership >> asking for 80. So, bring that up to 73
and um reduce it by seven. >> 75 instead of >> I I So, when we do this, can Mr. Diniac make make that go on? >> Yes. So it's it's 75 is to be safe, but yeah, we did calculate it out to be 729 with the new numbers.
>> So that's what So I'm going to make a recommendation that we reduce it by 7,000 because that is actually the real spend that is needed and should be reflective of what the real spend is. >> So she had but you have no people. He
has got it doesn't get a second. And it doesn't >> it includes every single person for the clothing allowance. >> Yeah, the payment's in April. So I may >> it will be and every single person will have a clothing allowance. They're only entitled to 900.
>> PFO recommending take it down to 75. So I'm going to move that we reduce it to 75. >> Yeah, I'll second. 167. Okay. >> Okay. Um, >> so you got 5,000 off. >> All right. Thank you.
>> So to reduce to >> 5,000. >> 5,000. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. Councilwoman Castelino. >> Yes. >> Councilman Kovia. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman Ruden. >> Yes. >> Councilwoman Williams. >> Yes. >> Council President Scorpa. >> Yes. The motion carries.
>> Good. 115 >> council. >> Yes. I I just again I submitted six questions. I don't know if anybody's had a chance to take a look at them. We can just run through them real quick. If not, we can uh go slower.
>> I Okay. Well, we could we start Can we stay in order because last time that got confusing. Can we stay on 115 and if you have questions on 15? Okay. Again, I have the the online budget, so I don't have that number, the page number.
>> That's the fire department. >> It's fire department. It's the first It's the first OE page. >> Sure. >> First OE page. >> Um line 082. >> That's what I have for the >> for training and education.
Uh the uh budget last year was 35,000 plus. Uh spent a little under 28,000. The new budget is 75,000 and as much as I think it's really important for fire safety training and education, I just
wonder uh if 75 is uh is too much for what the history is. So I just wanted to throw that out. >> So I I have justifications for everything that I asked for an increase for and I think they're they're pretty um they're pretty good justifications. So, but I did want to say that because I
remember last year and the year before and the year before sometimes we do borrow borrow from Peter to pay Paul because we have to within our and and quite frankly back I know we like to compare ourselves to other surrounding community to say this our OE budget is significantly less than any fire
department that you mentioned before comparable in size. It's much lower than anyone else. And I and I go to my chief's meetings and we can and so I'm I'm well aware of that. So unfortunately, we do have to kind of within our $100,000 operating budget
that it usually is. You know, maybe if we if we don't buy a nozzle that year, that's go to that got to go towards training. So it comes out of that. Um the sub accounts, again, I know it would be a lot easier if I sat here and we took everything out of sub accounts the way they were supposed to. It never
works that way. We also we have a trust account from penalties from you know fire lane penalties things like that. We're allowed to use that money um for training and equipment. We try not to. It's supposed to be for that that spend
that we want that maybe you guys aren't going to give us. That's what it's supposed to be. But the past two years I've depleted that because we don't have enough money. It's and and we shouldn't have to deplete that account. It's it's things that should stay in an operating budget every year. And the minute you
take it out, well, then the next year it's going to cost you twice as much to bring it back. And so I understand your what you had to do last year. But I'm speaking from for for my department now in that the things that I'm asking for here, it's not it's it it's not exaggerated. Uh to your point,
Councilman, why it's so the the um the training and education line. First of all, again, what I'm asking for now is what most of my um colleagues in Essex County, that's lower than what they have every year. The reason I'm specifically
asking for it this year is we're going to hire at least 13 people. Hiring, I've said this last year, is a minimum of $5,000 in training and education minimum per person. So right there, without doing any of our other training, we're keeping up with our um our
certifications. With any without doing anything else, you're looking at um 5,000 time 13. So $65,000 just for the new hires that we're definitely hiring. So 75 is probably not
going to be enough, Councilman. But if I put in 125, I think that would have been a problem. So yeah, we're probably going to have to tap into our our other account, which I don't want to have Chief Dillow do, but again, so that's my
explanation for number one question. Um >> Okay, >> thank you. Just a quick question. We pay we pay for their trip to the academy, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Yes. Please go ahead. >> Um your second question, which was how does this fit into the T budget? What
what line was that? Uh it's line 135 on page well on my page 232. It's a little bit under >> training and education >> prescription. Okay. So uh for years and I think I might have even mentioned this last year. Uh we have a uh I don't want
to say antiquated. We have an antique accountability system for our department. No one no one uses what we use a big giant board with magnets to show who's coming to work. It's um it's silly. I'm embarrassed of it. I'm embarrassed that I'm leaving and it's
still there. Um, but the police department has for years used a program called Planet. You may be aware of it. It's in a budget, I'm sure, somewhere. Um, we there are two companies that do and they integrate with our uh current
um system. Uh, one is called Planet and the other is called uh VCS. We've interviewed with VCS. Mr. Diniac says they actually in integrate well with our system. >> Prime point. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, um, Prime Point, um, so we'd
like to, um, sign on with them. It's a $10,000 a year subscription. Um, except it allows for us to, it allows for our people to we we have a lot of moving parts in the West Orange Fire Department because of EMS. Uh, and
not to get off on a tangent, years ago, it was the council's decision. Um we we were in a position where we were under a grant a staffing grant and the council didn't want to keep the people who were under the staffing grant and what we did is we took an engine company out of
service which went against even the chief at the times but we we managed to save the jobs and we took over EMS and we did killed two birds with one stone. We brought in income through EMS and nobody got laid off. Um, so that worked,
but but because we do AMS, we do rotations. So it's not like you watch on television and the guy's in the same firehouse for 30 years and he's all salty and no, we we all bounce around. One day someone's on the ladder truck, the next day they're on an engine, and the next day they're on an ambulance. So
trying to maintain that isn't the easiest thing to do. This accountability software will help us. It allow remotely uh when our people come to work, they won't have to call the deputy in the morning and ask where they're supposed to be going. They'll know exactly where they go. They'll be able to submit cards
for which we I say cards. We now use a card system for someone to take off. Again, antiquated. Um this will allow them to do it all through the computer. Uh so that's the $10,000 there that we're asking for. So >> yes, >> um Mr. Diniac, can you just verify the
the cost of the subscription >> to >> for where are we going? >> We met Mr. Dinak didn't meet with them. We met with them. We have a quote. >> You want to go with Planet or or >> BCS? We had we had leaned towards uh and that's where we brought it up to Mr.
Diniac and he says, "Oh, they they work well with with Prime Point." >> And you have a firm $10,000 subscription >> $200 something like was that what it was? I think it was like $10,200. I put in an even. >> Okay. So, that's going to be a yearly cost going forward. >> Going forward. Correct.
>> Okay. Um, >> your next question, Councilman, was uh, what is this? Why not? I say I don't have the the corresponding numbers. You had said, "What is this? Why nothing in 2025?" >> Oh, okay. It's
205 station wear. >> Okay. So, again, um, we have 13 hires that, uh, by contract, we we pay for their initial set of uniforms. Um, I put here at $1,000 each. It's more like $1,200 each for every new hire. Um, we
have to that was never included. We would have to find that money. Sometimes if we had uh money in a in a leftover capital account for PPE, which is we shouldn't go to that. That should be going to turnout gear. We would use money there. But again, we're hiring 13
people. So, that's an expense that we can't just find. If it was $2,000, we could we could we could take it out of the maybe the nozzle account, the nozzle sub account, but that's too much money for us to again, most of this because of the the amount of people we're hiring this year.
>> Interject on that too, that so the New Jersey Department of Labor requires any employee in particular under standard 10 that the anybody entering an immediate danger life and health IDH atmosphere, we are obligated to buy them that
equipment in the get-go. that that's why we have to buy the first set of turnout gear station wear and we also have to buy them their their turnout gear and we also buy we we started um where we buy them academy gear because station wear
is very expensive and they can go through it in the academy like three or four sets in the academy just from the training. So what we do is we buy them the the cheaper version so that this way it's >> we actually and because we're economic heroes we changed that. >> So now they buy their own academy wear.
So um yeah because we're economic heroes. I just wanted you guys to know that. >> Um I did not Williams. >> Um so uh so that that was that question. The next is not spending close to vote. What is this not spending? Line item
070. It's I think a couple of pages beyond. It's a staff uh uniform and tablet. >> It's uniform. >> Oh, okay. That's fire prevention. Um I got to find that out. >> And I'm just asking because we're not
spending close to the budget. So >> Well, that's the that's the full fire prevention dollar amount. Is that >> No, no, no. Not No, it's it's before that. It's the it's the uh >> staff uniform mentality. >> Yeah. So the budget is 2500. Last year
we spent 226. Uh same budget this year. >> Oh, >> looks like so far 317. So >> yeah. So I I don't have written down, but I I know the reason why I put that there. >> Because because all of our most of our tablets now are all uh Apple iPads. We
use them for um for inspections and we use them for EMS. Um, and there's only one place to get an Apple iPad fixed, >> unfortunately. They're awesome, but there's only one place. And, um, so I
I'd like to, and I asked our our QPA, I'd like to establish an account with Apple. Um, because what happens is we we have nothing and we have to have them fixed. So, I know that the council doesn't like reimbursements, which I can totally understand, but what happens is
somebody has to go and put out their own money to have this iPad fixed. there's no other way to do it and that's not appropriate. So that's where that line item comes from. >> Okay. And and I completely understand that. My question is if why would you budget for 2500 if you're only spending
you know $200 $300 >> because I don't believe that we only spent 225 >> that like I said there were we we reimbursed and I don't know that it how it got charged back to that to that right line item. So that's why I'm saying that. >> So do you have any data that says yes
we're spending $20? you probably find out how much we spent last year through >> through um reimbursements. Um >> okay. It's it's obviously not a major issue. I just wanted to flag it in case it's some it's an easy uh uh get back. So it doesn't sound like we're going to
do that >> decide that tonight. And then the last one is line item on the same page 160 fire prevention. We uh we actually reduced the budget slightly this year to $30,000.
And as much as I think fire prevention is important, I'm just wondering if we can be any more efficient on uh this line item. >> Well, I again I and I and I'm I'll I know it sounds like I'm being stubborn here, except everything that we have
here is even including our fire prevention is less than our surrounding town. So for for me to arbitrarily say we're going to cut it, we we spent it. I mean, that that means we're taking something away. That means if you if you want to say to me we're not going to do school visits and and and distribute school materials, I'm I'm okay with
that. That's probably $5,000. Take out the I I have to say we're not doing it because the council voted it down. So, I I don't know how much, again, I use that word arbitrary. We spend the money uh on what we're supposed to spend it on and it and we stay within the budget and
it's less than our surrounding communities. yet it, you know, everyone's still looking to cut it. I'm not really sure how >> we navigate that. >> Thank you, Chief. >> Appreciate it. >> Done. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Uh, so I assume 113 computer software on
that same page. Uh, is Lex, you have Lexiple. Is that a new program you're bringing in? >> It's not a new program at all. We've had it for since uh the year after I became chief. Um, Lexipole is a is a policies and procedures platform. Um, it's where
we all of our policies and procedures of which we have about 230 uh reside. They allow the platform allows them to be changed instantaneously. Um, and if something if something needs to be changed, whether it's federal law,
state law, uh, it happens automatically. Lexipole actually keeps track of that for us. Uh if you've ever had to develop policies and procedures, it's it's an arduous task and my friend sitting next to me here can appreciate it. It's not something that
that one, two, three people can do. Lexipole kind of helps us with this. So when I look at that dollar amount, that's my that's my policy and procedure assistant. >> Yeah, that's okay. My my question is you only spent 780. It was only budget for
781 last year. There wasn't anything. I'm not even really sure where that 781 came from. >> So the lexipole >> was it another part of the budget or >> it might not have said lexipole. It might have said computer. Maybe it was maybe we changed the >> I think we we changed it later on.
Lexipole was paid for out of 160 the firerevention program last year. >> Right. >> Okay. So So now the fire prevention it was paid out of there. Okay. So, if it was paid out of there in line 160,
is that was that part of the 32,000 that you did for >> Apparently, it was, but like I said before, we we take things out of accounts where we shouldn't be taking them out of like the the fact I can't be guaranteed that next year um our
inspector is going to write $30,000 worth of parking lane violations so I can use it to buy station wear. It shouldn't work that way. So, what I'm trying to do is is right or wrong. We shouldn't be spending that money on things that we spend every year. Again,
next year, I can guarantee you Nick's not going to Chief Gillow here is not going to come back and ask you for $13,000 for station wear, but this year we need it. >> Yeah. Now, >> we didn't need it last year. We hired one person last year. So, some years are different. >> I get it. But we're trying to do bud a
zerobased budgeting. So, I'm just saying like the 15 should stay in 113. Should 160 be less because that's where how you paid for it last year. That's all. Or if you really need that money, like for example, we're just trying to line up the line item. So, I know you
need the money because my next question was going backwards to page 115 on line 112. You are only asking for five for life-saving protected clothing and last year you spent uh 18247
20,000 budgeted. >> Which number was we looking at? I'm sorry. >> Going back to the first page of operating 112 life protected clothing. You're only asking for five with new hires. So that's where So I guess if you want to clear >> the reason I the reason I asked for
$5,000 and I I have a whole list of >> No, no, that's okay. But I'm saying it's less than the year before. It's a lot less. Like last year you spent$18247. You already spent to date 1328 and you're only asking for five. Did you
Was there a mistake made there? >> The reason I asked for five was because we weren't sure if we were going to be able to uh if we were going to need to rent gear for the academy recruits. Okay. because occasionally we we try to let them use gear that we have, which sometimes is out of service life and we
can't and that happened a couple of classes ago and we had to rent gear for them. So again, 13 new hires, I I assumed that we might have to rent gear and that could be $500 a higher. So that's where I came up with that number. >> Okay. So you'll be okay because you're shorting yourself.
>> No, I think we'll be okay again because back to the number that you said it probably wasn't all for for rental gear. And we probably took something out of that that line from somewhere else. It's just >> okay. >> Certain lines don't have enough money, so we take it out of another line. That's how our
>> Just don't say the words mulligans do. >> You said it. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. I didn't say. >> They really are >> because we're trying. Councilwoman Newton, did you have any? >> Yes. >> I just want to I just want to follow up on that. >> Yeah. We're trying to get these a zero
bas. correction that was made to move Lexapro um from the fire prevention lexro sorry let >> lexapro right um fire prevention to to let the pole um that
>> I I I think that we need to take out the 15,000 from from line item 60 I understand that this is sort of the fire prevention program has sort of become a little bit of the slush fund because you're you're spending money uh in this
category for items that also come out under public safety education. It's almost the same. And then you also are spending within this budget 4,000 for a fire safety course. And who is that fire safety course for
since each of the new recruits are are going to have a fire safety course? Hold on. I'm sure you're looking at stands fire. >> Yeah. What we want to do is kind of
clean this up in all departments and have everything actual. >> Yes. >> Reflecting the actual cost >> education, right? We >> then it helps the future chief for next year be much easier
>> final budget. >> Yeah. We're not looking to take the money away, but just just transfer the line item so it's easier next year when the new chief >> doesn't get a headache. >> But you're following what we're trying
to do. Zero based budget in house inspector course. >> Yeah. >> Is that what you're talking the $4,000 from the fire inspector course we did last year. >> Yes, we're just trying to What was your question? I'm sorry. >> Yes, sir.
>> It's when we held the class. >> Okay. So, um I think since we're since we're switching funds, we should reduce the fire prevention um by 15 by 15,000, which is and you'll still have plenty of
money because zero money has been spent in that account to date. >> So, this came up last year, too. The majority of our firerevention budget is spent in the fall. That's fire prevention month. That's fire prevention week. It's our firerevention openhouse.
It's that's just the way it happens. Um, so I I can't I can't say that. >> And there'll be $17,000 for that fire prevention. >> Isn't that a community event where the >> It's basically an open house.
>> It's an open house for the fire department and the in the valley area. So, it's a big community event. >> It's a great thing for the kids. Absolutely. >> We're not cut No, we're not cutting it. We can't >> the lexipole came out of that account last year. We're trying to clean up the accounts.
>> I mean, why are we trying to clean up the accounts? Let's have the CFO clean up the account. >> That's our job. We're oversight. >> It's not getting oversight. >> That's what our job is. So, I' I'd like to make a motion. >> That wasn't point of order. >> Yeah.
>> Point of orderment. >> You make them all the time. So what? >> Let's >> It's not Let's be respectful. >> Time to talk. It's time to go. >> Let's be I'm I'm gonna make a motion for to reduce uh line item 160 by 15K
because that's moving over into the line item 113. >> So So what I'll do, Councilwoman, >> it's exactly what it's exactly what you proposed. Now for a woman >> line item 160.
>> So what h what have so so chief so chief so if this is accurate because I don't want to short him. >> Yeah. Make sure >> if if the if the lexipole came out of line 160 last year because it's like you
have an add-on of 15,000 for it which is fine. You were right to make that category but you took it from line 160. We're just saying reduce line 160, but I know what you're you're panicking, >> but you're not you didn't hear what I
said about the about the trust account. >> Yeah. And what I'm saying is we we have to take money of that. And that's not a guarant that's a we don't go out writing tickets to make money. >> Oh, so you >> last couple years we made some fire lane ticket money. And I and I had to spend it on things like I hate to use it, but
like toilet paper. That's the kind of We're not supposed to spend it on that kind of stuff. I'm kidding when I said toilet paper, but we spend it on things that are considered training and equipment. In theory, Lexiple we could probably squeeze in as training and equipment. And so we'll use we'll we'll
write it out of that budget, which in theory, that's not what that's for because it's it's not a it's not a it's not a set number. It could go away. >> I know, but you're not using all that truly on fire protection and fire prevention programming like that. That
should only be for I don't mind letting you keep that kind the money in your budget, but it's got to go to a different >> put in the right lending >> more. I'd rather give it you put it back. >> So, if we put it if we put Would it be better if we put it in in our in our the fire department operate operating
budget? Is that would you rather we did that? I >> if you need it. Yes. You just need to put in the right category. >> I wouldn't have asked for it if we didn't need it. So, I mean that's kind of what I'm saying. That's it's >> we're just trying not to have this conversation next year with the new chief. So So because if we see fire
prevention next year and I get it you guys tap into that every year for your for your stuff. I get that. Where else? Where could be a more general account line that we could bump up for you so you have the money that
>> Well, the reason we the reason that Mr. Datiniac added it to line 113 was so that it had its own line. So you knew what that was for as opposed to us putting it at the thing. That's what we need. That's what I'm asking for. If next year we come back and we've underspent
>> what I'm saying we need, >> then say, "Well, you underspent it. We're going to cut it." We haven't understo we we did spend it. It's it I'm trying to communicate. But you, like you said, you robbed Peter to pay full. We're trying to get you to line up all
>> No, that's that's what we just did this year. We we we we added he Mr. Gross never did it for me. Mr. Diniac added the lines that I've been asking for for years. So, I appreciate that. So, we could present. So, you can see actually where like you never knew Lexipole existed. We've had it for seven years.
You never knew it existed because it was hidden somewhere and I couldn't get it on the on the budget. So, now it's on the budget and you're going to cut >> anything away. We were just trying to re re forget it. I think >> No, I I think you are taking something away. >> No, I'm not. I'm giving you a credit
somewhere else. Yeah. Taking it a delete. If you only spend every year 15 on true prior prevent for the programming. That's great. But you could take that 15. I'm offering you to take that 15 to
put it somewhere else general line item. So if you need it, it's there for you. He's grabbing the 15 from the trust account. So, >> what I'm saying is that's that's >> He's still spending $45,000. >> I don't want to have to tap into that trust account. >> I I understand that. I
>> How about this? Since it's 908, we can we can get through this fireball pretty quick. Why doesn't the chief give you a breakdown of what we spent in true fire prevention last year and then balance down the 30,000 besides the 15? Then then it's a >> Okay, >> the argument is is done.
>> We move on. And it's not an argument. We're just trying to get where we asked last year to be. That's all we did last year. We asked for this clarity. >> Yeah. >> And I don't mean to say our thing. I mean, >> I know no, I know. I know. I know. It
gets long and it get I know it's a tedious process, but as years go by, it should be less tedious. >> Yeah. Right. And council >> Williams, but we have an hour. >> All right. It's all I'm not going to second the motion. The motion was on the
floor of it. >> I'm not going to sec >> Let them come with another I'm leaving it because I'm not going to take away the money. They want to leave it in the account. >> Let us let us do like we do with the other things for the DPW. We can they
give you some ideas and we're going to back it up with with the this the facts and and if in fact he is less than what he's he's claiming here, then then we can make that cut. >> I mean, you can make the motion. See if it gets second. Not going to second. >> No, I think we should. >> What was the the exact motion was to
reduce it? >> Since we have added 15 15,000 into line item 113 to accurately reflect the use of Lex pole which came from fire department program. we should adjust our
our um prevention program and take a good look at what that what else you're spending on because you spent 32,000 last year 15 of it was for was for Lexipole 17,000
four of it went to to the fire safety course then you had handouts and coloring books and computer square >> what is computer Square >> can you let me know what you wanted to reduce it by? How much?
>> I wanted to reduce it by 15 since we're transferring it over to the other. >> Wait, did I be able to and to and to remain infos? >> How much was it? >> 10,000. >> Yeah, that's the info. >> That's our inspection.
>> It's going to require inspirction. That's >> I don't know why I stole it for sure. >> Oh, that's right. The company is CSI. >> Is that something that you use? >> The company's name is CSI. >> Is that something that you use every year? >> And so can you create a line item for
that so that we know that that's what it is? >> Sure. >> Okay. And take take that out and now and create another line item for computer. So that computer square it's 108. Now we're reducing that amount. And now I'd
like to really understand what Excuse me. Excuse me. I have the floor. >> I know, but >> excuse me. What we're What we're diving into is to find out what the firerevention program is actually being spent on. And 10.8 is actually being
spent on Computer Square. We should have that. We should have that as a separate line item so that next year we know exactly what we need to budget for. So that's what I asked you. You said you gave me a hard. >> So could you clean up for maybe? Yeah,
you have lexol on here. It shows you saying it doesn't say line item. >> It's okay. >> has its own lineup. >> So let's take that let's put that into. So now we have >> Okay. Can I just say something please? Because we have a motion on the floor and without a second we're not supposed
to debate, argue, and whatever. We don't have a second. I wasn't even given an opportunity to call for a second. So, and now we're debating and discussing and everything. So, unless we have a second, we're really This is inappropriate. >> I know, but the dilemma is I I was going to second it, but I won't second it
until I know where the money was going because I didn't want to delete the money. >> We have the conversation offline, >> but but I I can tell you and Mr. Datinia can tell you exactly what that money was spent on and we can correct it and have it correct going forward so that we know
exactly what you need for the fire prevention program. >> Well, obviously it was 32, >> right? 10 of 15. >> Just to clarify, we're not approving the fire department budget tonight. Correct. >> Right. So we so whether the council
woman has made a motion. It has been seconded yet. We said we would get you the information. So why don't we get you the information? Even if it fails fails tonight, you could still vote on it at a meeting. >> You could clean if you wanted if you want to change it out. >> Yes.
>> So why don't we to end this discussion so we can move forward budget. We'll get you the chief will get you the information and then we can present it back to you. Then you can make an informed decision on what you want to cut. get the line item. >> Is that fair enough? We >> Yes. And and just I I I'm wondering
whether or not the firerevention program and the public safety education should be merged. >> That's up to them. >> I understand. But we have two separate categories right now and we're trying to get accurate categories so that we understand what they need each year. It's the same. They're providing the
exact same items. They're both providing >> They're both very They're very vague categories. I know that they're very vague categories. So I I understand what you're saying. >> Yeah. >> I I have to sit with my fire official cuz this is basically his this is his budget. This isn't mine. So and find out
have him do more of a breakdown, but I don't know that that's going to be h going to be presented this year. So I can try to give you a better idea as to I mean I think Mr. Diniac presented what was spent. Um >> yes, but I mean but we could just leave
it tonight >> and then clean it up. Let us know what category you want to create or move it to the 15 from the >> that's already moved. >> No, no, we're leaving Lex Pull where it's at with 15. That's done. So now
>> I So she we want to deduct the 160 a 15 from line 160 >> and then relocate that in the line item that you identify for us. That's up to you. However, we need to be mindful that
if we deduct, >> we have to have a super majority to add it back. >> Correct. >> For everybody to add it up. >> I am mindful that >> you do it and I don't know if we can do it differently, make the motion to relocate it and then at the same time
>> or either do something separately because otherwise run the risk of reducing his budget. >> I I get that and we're all big people. So, I think if we give our word that we're going to relocate it, then it should be >> do that motion first. Um, yeah, I I
would just recommend that we do that motion first. The only other comment that I had um Chief, and thank you for um just really whittling down your budget. I appreciate that we are the fifth largest township in Essex County
and your fire budget doesn't reflect your true accurate needs. Um, but I want to address that because you were will >> second busiest by the way. >> Oh, and it's going to get busier in the apartments. >> Um, so you you were willing to take a cut in uniforms.
>> Um, you said that they cost $1,200 and you only budgeted a,000. That was um >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I I would just ask you not to short change the new hires. And if you really
need $1,200 for uniforms. >> Well, I based on a thousand based I I just got a bill for this new when I when I did this. They were about $1,000 for two sets of pants, two or two short sleeve, two shirt, whatever it was about $1,000. Then the new people went to the
academy and I just saw an invite. It's higher. That's why I said it to you. So between then and now, the price went up. I I don't know. So, >> so I I I would just say obviously we're trying to get to a zerobased budget. If that's an actual cost and this is for
our new hires that are coming in, I I would ask my colleagues to reflect this line item with the actual cost. I don't think we want any of our new hires not being prepared to go out and serve the public. >> I would agree. We want to move in that direction and reflect our actual costs
wherever possible. So, I'm I'm more than comfortable increasing that to an actual line item. If it was $1,200 and we know we have 13 new hires coming in, I'd like that to reflect the needs of your department.
>> 205 call. Well, do I need to make a motion to increase that line item or what are we doing? >> I'm just getting the numbers. No, >> I can get you more accurate. I mean, you do that. >> I got you more accurate number. All right. And again, I and I put 13 down
because that's what we anticipate. So, >> that the whole budget is forecasting, you know. >> Yeah. Okay. >> It be 12 and 15. That's the exact lie. I don't know exactly. I just know it was more than a thousand. >> All right. Just finish up on that last
page. The 2020 now, right? >> Oh, I'm sorry. See, wait. >> Questions on the >> page and then let them come up. >> We We jumped around. I just want to make sure. >> Yeah, let's cover the whole questions after we do this. >> I think we didn't we miss a page. Yes,
we missed a page on page 116 and I'd like to ask a question on that. Okay. So on line line item 200 for medical and psychological exams. Uh last year we budgeted 2,000 said that hires
>> we hired 13 we're hiring 13 people this year. >> I understand. I understand. But we also have a contract with Dr. Kelly and Dr. Kelly is the um >> I think we went through this last year too. He he doesn't do our Bruce protocol. It's a different he doesn't do what we
>> It says it says medical medical uh care for police fire. It also says for medical medical evaluation for all employees physical exam um all of this
why are we not using what what else >> he doesn't do it includes a stress test. He he doesn't do that. That's not >> why does he not do a stress test like I think um Mr. Smaldo had said once before he He'll he'll do examinations for fitness for duty. He'll do examin he'll
um testing doesn't do umization. So he does other things but he doesn't do >> the the Bruce protocol is a is a stress test on a treadmill that that's not his but that's not what he's contracted to do. So that's why we use the care station. Um which is part of that. The
other part of that is psychological exams and obviously he doesn't do psychological exams. So we we sent we use a company in Oakland um for that. So that's where that cost comes. >> Okay. We have to see that come up.
>> Anything else before we prior to you have any other questions from the council? >> No. >> No. Page 120, you have uh you put a new item, new line items on 120. >> Okay.
>> That's part of your new ask a new organization. Chief, >> that was my question. >> Page 120. >> Uh yeah, I mean I can speak for OEM. I'm not the OEM coordinator, but um last year you zeroed out OEM. It's a new OEM
coordinator. He he made an ask because there are certain things that he wants to implement. I think it's $4,000 is >> Yeah. >> It's nothing in terms of what what's Yeah. So >> I mean he wants to make a presentation. >> Yeah, he does.
>> OM OEM fall under the perview of the fire department, but the new OEM coordinator would like to come speak to you speak to you. Fine. >> He may have some thoughts. >> All right, Miss Bennett, take it away. Hopefully we can then be done. Okay,
very quickly. So, we had one question. CBA has one question about college compensation. Are there limits? Um, and is there any reimbursement requirements if a course isn't completed or something? >> They they it's all by contract. They
change it in the contract. It used to be that uh if you had if you possessed X number of credits uh and you were metriculating or you had a degree in fire science, there was a couple of of things, fire science, fire engineering. Um but you could do if you had a
bachelor's degree, like Nick and I did this, for example, you could go back and get credits in fire science and you can accumulate a certain amount and get a certain amount, a percentage of that. They this last contract they negotiated um if you had a bachelor's degree I think it's is it straight up bachelor's
degree straight up bachelor's degree so you get compensation there is no reimbursement for I would love that but there's no reimbursement for continuing education uh it's just if you have a bachelor's degree you get that type of
>> Thank you. Um, so I I think you covered this, but I just want to make sure there was a I think it was 2024. Your very good management reduced the overtime budget by about $100,000. Is that right? Or was it more than that? I don't remember. >> 600. >> It was more than that,000.
>> Yeah. >> Last year >> 2024, we had a significant OT spend. We were able to lower it in 2025, but not quite hit our mark. Uh, in terms I would Yes. And what I would attribute that Yeah. the question >> attributed to having full staffing.
Usually that's that's the the the that's what creates the variation at the most part. Again, as I mentioned before, there are certain things people take off. I can't do much about that, but >> it's it it when you hire more people and you have, like I said, that the 21 on each shift and 20 on one shift. If you
have that to start from, you're in better shape than if you have 18 on each shift. We had we had a long-term I don't know if it was illness or injury. >> We have a few unfortunately when sometimes there's long-term injuries and then there's also people who do take off you know towards the end of their career
that might be the time they decide to have their shoulder surgery or whatever and if they're out for six months that's um that's pretty tough to juggle. So, >> um, and so then the follow-up question
to that was, um, uh, are you with these 13 additional hires, are you fully staffed? >> Fully staffed. Well, we'll be fully staffed until there's five that leave the day I leave. So, on June 1st, we go
back to being down five. So, >> okay. And then, um, seven deputy chiefs. In theory, we're actually then we're down 11 because or because we the others aren't done with the academy yet. So, >> right. Understood. So, you have seven deputy chiefs? >> Six deputy chiefs.
>> Six. >> Four of them are shift commanders and two are administrative. >> Okay. And so, I guess the question is, does overtime get impacted by the new hires? It do you think over overtime would reduce or
>> overtime get impacted by the new hires? I think overtime's reduced with the new hires when they're eligible for overtime as well. So, even this new class that's coming in, >> by the time they're done, by the time they finish their EMT school, they also since they're um they're not able to
drive yet. So, we they have a certain period of time where they can't work overtime. Um we usually try to get them on shift as soon as we can. Um but, um yeah, and again, it's it's a it's a cycle. I mean, in a perfect world, we would we would anticipate and send them
to the academy ahead of time, but that's not the um and actually, quite frankly, I I talked to Mr. Diniac about that because I knew, you know, you don't always know when people are going to retire until they they what we call push the button when they announce this to that pension that they're going to
retire. We I knew I was retiring. So some of my classmates knew they were retiring and we were putting this class together right that's in right now and we talked about possibly and with Mr. Smaldo if we could put 10 in instead of for or 11 in instead of the six and they
decided it was just because there's more to it and there was health benefits involved and so we kept it at the six. >> Okay. And then um one of the CBA members asked about a staffing analysis. Have you done one? Is it possible to do one? Um I correct me if I'm wrong. The
council voted it down. They put one they they last year or the year before. Am I wrong? >> Year before >> I'm almost the council voted it down because they got they put it out for bid. That's a fact. I remember that voted >> there were like 10 there were like 10 bids that came in. It was for police and
for fire and the council and I mean it was significant. You know how analysis cost. I think the cheapest one was $65,000. So the council voted it down. So, >> so and the I think the question was would you recommend that though under the >> I I would recommend it because
um but I found and and other towns around us they don't follow the stat they they have in their mind what they want to do. I I can I can tell you as the fire chief and I'm going out so I have no reason to not tell you the truth. According to NFPA which is our standard we're underst staffed. We're
having an ISO audit which uh happens. We we were able to get a better grade the last time we did. We went down went from a four to a three. Be great if we go to a two. If everybody knows what ISO is, it's our it's it's your fire insurance rating. So if if we do better on our
assessment, your insurance goes down for the whole community. So it's a great thing, but they base their stand they base on the NFPA standard. So we're below the NFPA standard. So if you if you were to hire a staffing have someone come in and do a staffing analysis, I doubt highly
because they have to follow the standard that they're going to say anything but you're underst staffed and that's what they've said in other communities and they still cut staffing. So I don't I don't know how to answer that. >> Well, no, I I appreciate the answer. I think you answered the sebat. There's
one additional question. Condition of the firehouses. Is there any need for upgrades or equipment um that you're aware of since you're >> since you're on your way out, you can be honest. >> So, I have to give credit to um our town
engineer. She's she's very receptive and responsive to us. Um >> but at the end of the day, it's a lot of money. And it's it's not a it's not $200,000. It's millions of dollars to upgrade these very old firehouses that are lived in 247.
in with with dirt and they're just they're they're old and um so and even unfortunately what happens and I hate to to uh quote Mr. Lour I mean Mr. tour. Um, >> but we do we do a lot of band dating >> and you know there was a significant
amount of money that was spent at fire headquarters and I know some of you had come around and seen the conditions that we had and and it was great they they spent money to fix it but if the ones who of you who didn't come around come around now you wouldn't you'd again say oh my god this place because the the
things that were fixed were not necessarily you know they were it was done by the >> bandit's a bandit >> so it's a shared It just it's a shared theme of the seab >> thing and quite frankly and I could say it amongst friends it also goes always to the lowest bidder
>> goes to the lowest bidder and I'm going to say because I was there for the whole work we get what you pay for >> and I hate to say that but unfortunately that's we got what we paid for and there's issues and I just spoke to the engineer last week about issues that can't be resolved and she said maybe you
have to bring the town attorney into it. So there's there's things that don't work and there's no warranty and that person's no longer in business because they were the lowest bidder and that's what they do. And so there's just a little >> that's the consistent concern of the
sebab is that we're hearing a theme of band-aids etc. And that at some point you know you have to have >> everything though and and and I respect the council that we're trying to debt service down. That's that's where the juggling happens.
>> We're we're we're trying to support, you know, >> being responsible. Yeah. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> To go back because to the education for the firemen, this might be an opportunity where the partnership with Grand Canyon University is an
opportunity where they can receive it at a tremendous discount. Um, and then if we have cohorts within the township, something that was almost up to 40% for five. >> Okay, cool. Do they do fire science program? >> They do. Okay. >> They do. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, we can
offer there's New Jersey City University because they were local is where most of us if we took credits that's where we went because um I went. Now, everybody just does it online. I physically went, but uh but so that's usually where
everyone goes, but I'm sure the >> Would you consider paying for it? Um so, No quite now. They could say good. >> Nothing. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yes. Councilwoman Castelina,
>> Councilwoman Castleina has. >> So, next time, Mr. Soraldo, obviously, we're going to have the police department. >> I just checked with the chief. He's not available next week. He's going to come the follow.
So what I did was and maybe to help with this u process if you have questions um send them ahead but I I sent out today hold on one second >> what's our meeting next Tuesday night >> next Tuesday night 4 4 pm
and I hold on >> engineering maybe >> yeah that would be a good one to get out of >> we're back here tomorrow >> John, do you have that in front of you? I don't see the uh I know I sent it out today, but I don't see it.
>> Yeah, it's just a budget. >> Hey, John. >> Yeah. >> Do you have the um the schedule I sent out there, but I I can't find on my phone for some reason. >> Oh, wait. My budget. I'm sorry. Here. I got it. Um so, next week I have planning and zoning, engineering, construction, and clerk's office on deck.
>> No, >> planning, zoning, engineering. No. >> Construction >> and construction. >> Yep. And if we have time, the clerk's office. >> Wait, wait. Can you go through that one more time? So, >> planning and zoning. >> Construction. >> Engineering. >> Uhhuh.
>> And the construction office. >> Can you just send us an email, please? >> Yeah. I just sent it out to the I sent out to the directors, make sure they're available. So, if they're all good, we'll send out We're going to send out the whole thing. And then >> and send to CBA, too. >> And then um and and if if time permits, we have the clerk's office. So on the
11th we're going to have police recreation help the two tax offices and OEM which I don't think we're going to get to. So we're going to have to probably figure out a fourth date. >> Okay. >> So >> and we really need to get those what you scheduled done in that time frame or
charts. >> Yeah. All the orb charts. Well, I sent you or charts just a little while ago. So you should have got No, it's not all of them. No, I'll get you the rest. So, >> and did you send that to CB as well? >> I just sent it to the the the council
just before I sent it to Karen. Karen can send out. >> Yeah, I'll send it. >> Second. Second. All in favor? I >> Any opposed? The meeting to journ tomorrow. in that.