##VIDEO ID:l25wUePa_wg## a [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome everyone joining us in council chambers and those joining us virtually to our November 12th uh council meeting um I apologize for a little bit of a delay getting started uh we do have a few things to go over in our conference agenda so Madam clerk this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the annual notice was emailed to The Star Ledger and filed in the township clerk's office on November 21st 2023 and published in the West Orange Chronicle on November 30th 2023 councilwoman celino present councilwoman gber Michel councilwoman Scarpa present councilwoman Williams pres council president Rutherford here mayor McCartney before we begin uh we were I was just informed when I walked into council chambers that our former business administrator former Police director Mr Jack SE has passed away today uh yeah we just were Friday well I was just told today so I don't know when it when it happened Friday Friday okay what happened it happened Friday yes many like many of you that are just learning I just learned as well um for those of you that have been around a while Mr sers has been a fixture in West Orange uh for decades uh so I would like to have a quick moment of silence to uh honor his passing before we get into the rest of our meeting thank you um all right so we have a Proclamation uh the 2024 extra mile day Madame mayor okay council president thank you for the moment of silence for Jack thank you so good evening everyone welcome so let's just explain extra mile America was set up a few years ago uh Nationwide inviting municipalities to join to challenge people to do more than just wish for change West Orange is one of those registered municipalities we registered about 14 years ago however West Orange is so fortunate to have individuals who accepted that challenge way before this National initiative began so we are here tonight to recognize and thank those individuals who have served and those who continue to volunteer to serve to affect positive change in our community so that was the invitation thank you for accepting the invitation and our Proclamation reads that uh basically saying the same thing that West Orange is a community which acknowledges that special vibrancy exists within a community when individual citizens collectively go that extra mile and do more than just wish for a change I'm not going to read the rest because I had our surgery on Wednesday and um is very small farm so we know why we're here so we're our first uh group to call up is the West Orange planning board all all of us getting pins you want your pen on the picture all right we're waiting for all the volunteers to come up okay way that okay canat there you go you'll be in the picture great everyone all right so we have if w and anyone from West historic preservation commission [Laughter] I'm how you doing the downtown Alliance what's this which one's this down that I know I think everyone else is s right behind environmental Commission get are what open space commission very careful yeah we can thank Joe for helping to assemble all of these older adults Advisory Board I see you don't give it tose the KE congratulations congratulations and we only half our West Orange human relations Commission here here double up here have to go back two have some stand West Orange Arts Council just on mayor's program for the uniquely gifted I got a couple inches here an extra one that's what I performing public relations Commission [Laughter] I'm don't troll there St to Municipal Alliance we could set a few more on this side too the ren house board of directors yeah there you go okay and do I have West Orange Animal Welfare Le I know was invited we'll get everything out to everyone that was not able to attend so we're saying thank you thank you for doing more than just wishing for a change thank you okay I just and and the West Orange pedestrian safety commission The Advisory but I think most in different in different capacities take as many pins as okay everybody look this way okay you can stay there for the rest great year absolutely we got the best draft class right she when you got the new forward hopefully I got give thank you and I have in fact it's in my the last two years it's in the back seat of my you come to my house thanks Beau all YouTu hello thank you thank you good people so for those of you that have served we certainly do salute you uh this was not the easiest year to serve uh but you guys came through with flying colors so thank you for what you've done for West Orange and we look forward to an even better 2025 um we still have a few minutes left about 4 to be exact uh for Council liaison announcements um we will start with councilwoman Williams uh liaison announcements yeah I don't have any of those thank you Miss SCA okay uh Economic Development did not meet this month we'll be meeting next month so there's not too much on that oek as we know concluded our season so there's not too much there but we're looking forward to next year and the uh older adults Advisory Board I want to thank everyone who served it's been a long year our seniors did really enjoy their trip to Liberty Middle School to see the community band and they are asking me to make it a monthly event so I am looking for ideas of where we can go each month on a little field trip for our seniors we have our group from the degman house who don't have wheels do not drive and really appreciate all we do so thank everyone for their service and that's about all I have thank you uh Council good evening West Orange the open space and Recreation um commission met uh this past week last week and that's our last meeting for the year we are going to get out a date for our tour in the spring so look out for that um the next meeting will be in January The Pedestrian safety Advisory board meeting as you all know I mentioned last time canel its October meeting and we're cancelling the November meeting due to scheduling conflicts for most of the board members so I will keep you posted in next thank you that concludes my B on announcements councilwoman thank you council president um first Saturday of December I have to pull up my calendar uh uh our holiday openhouse in the township uh first downtown allines will be hosting breakfast with Santa at Washington Street School in the morning uh with our F our trolley rides to follow throughout the Main Street and um lellan Park and later on the recreation department will be putting on their celebration here at Town Hall so we look forward to that uh also um I had the opportunity uh this Sunday to go with uh mayor McCartney uh to my Parish our lady the Lord's church has celebrated 110 year anniversary uh Father Jim Ferry did a wonderful job with our special guest Corel uh Joseph Tobin so that was a very very uh beautiful mass and celebration with the Cardinal and 110 years in our Township so uh we're very uh appreciative to all those who made that possible through the years and yesterday was a beautiful day um Veterans Day uh was celebrated here in the township and recognize uh our veterans were the highly decorated and I'm sure Mr uh Fagan will probably have something on this with all his details um in the township I just want to thank for the first time uh putting this presentation together she did an outstanding job Melody of show Walter she had taken over the event this year and um and public works and our police and firefighters so just just a beautiful job of Mr uh uh Joe Brennan uh hosting as well in our Elks Club so just a really nice event and I was glad I was able to be present thank you council president uh thank you colleagues um so tomorrow night planning board has uh special in purpose in person uh meeting to consider to further consider the West Essex Highlands development um one of the things that came out in our last meeting uh colleagues for the first time at least since I've been on um the planning board is that uh when discussing the West Essex Highlands development um it has frequently um in the conversation has frequently been said that uh the settlement agreement governs um and it was acknowledged on the record by everyone at our last council meeting our last planning board meeting that the planning board is not subject to or a party to that settlement agreement so while it has been discussed uh at nauseum honestly um the settlement agreement has uh the planning board is not a party to it now the ordinance that uh was drafted uh and duly passed by the council at that time does incorporate many aspects of that um settlement agreement but the planning board is not a party to or subject to nor abound by uh that particular settlement agreement which I think is important because that's what we've been talking about this entire time now the settlement agreement governs and it does not at least at the planning board level uh so for those of you that are interested in that particular project uh come on out tomorrow night or watch via Zoom the link is on our website uh this Thursday we have um joint meeting uh where we will adopt our budget for 2025 uh the budget includes a 3.2% increase uh Which is less than uh the rate of inflation um I'm on the finance and budget committee and we did a tremendous amount of work including today to uh present that budget to the full board for a vote this coming Thursday at 4:00 so uh look forward to that meeting as well and that's it for me uh on leison announcements I will say uh every year um it is always hard for me to make the Veterans Day uh program I've only made it once in the last five or six years uh because my family and I travel this year was no different but had I been in town we certainly would have been there celebrating uh I do come from a military family including my father who is a veteran of the US Navy we acknowledged him on Sunday at church um I think that's it for me anything else before we go into our regular meeting no all right Madam clerk this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the annual notice was emailed to The Star Ledger and filed in the township clerk's office on November 21st 2023 and published in the West Orange Chronicle on November 30th 2023 councilwoman celino present councilwoman gber Michael present councilwoman Scarpa present councilwoman Williams council president Rutherford will everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance States na God indivisible with liy and justice for all the council is now in their public meeting uh thank you madam clerk as always we will begin with public comment um public comment is for those that are in person only so if you're joining us via Zoom you will not have the opportunity to comment um and we will begin with Mr Fagan followed by Mr P thank you uh council president um as was mentioned at the beginning of the meeting uh Jack SARS passed away on November 8th uh he was a former uh Police director and business administrator and gave many years of service to West Orange and on a personal note uh Jack grew up in West Orange as did I and we both played on the palal Mustangs in 1969 not 1869 1969 uh so Jack is certainly going to be uh missed and a well remembered here in West Orange uh I want to start out with a uh a public safety notice uh but before I do that the mayor had mentioned earlier that she had um eye surgery and could not see and uh I could well and I can attest to that uh because the first thing she said to me this uh this evening when she came in she says Joe you look wonderful how much weight did you lose so we know that there were some that's a joke you can laugh so we know that there were some problems okay not all these jokes are intended to be funny by the way okay um fire pits and any recreational burns are now prohibitive in West Orange until further notice of course that only makes good sense given the current dry conditions that exist throughout the state uh if anyone is using a fire pit the uh fire department will show up on scene and extinguish the fire and the West Orange Police is instructed to uh advise the fire department of where uh where fire pits are and uh I was alerted before the meeting that this notice was inadvertently removed from our website um and uh I want to make people aware the residents aware that this still is in effect and uh it will be reinstated tomorrow on the website and of course there is a Statewide ban for recreational fires throughout the state that has not changed uh the only thing that has changed is the intensity of some of the wildfires around the state uh so please be aware of this and uh just uh practice common sense and adhere to the uh the restrictions uh New Jersey Transit has changed their schedule and we are in the process West Orange is in the process of uh updating their Jitney schedule uh that has not yet be compl been completely ironed out but please be aware that that will change and updates will be posted on the website uh I believe uh this is phase three psng uh notification is hereby giving of their uh milling and uh Paving schedule uh this information uh this uh chart uh it begins today November 12th through November 19th and this is posted on West orange.org so you can see where this will fit in uh to to infected area uh certainly expect delays and um you know uh plan accordingly uh and as they say that's from the 12th through November 19th um essis County Mobile Health Clinic Mr pesi may want to talk a little bit about this there was uh this is very beneficial to West Orange residents and that's why I pointed out um the uh one today of course uh was earlier today but there are three others and this information is posted on our website uh so uh please please check it out if you feel it could be beneficial to you um earlier this week we had a water main break um and uh it was about 25 homes that were uh affected and we had this information posted on the website with updates as it became available but I want to point out to Residents that if you go to our website you can sign up for code red and you would receive water alerts directly from New Jersey American Water you wouldn't have to rely on something like our website so this is very beneficial information you should check it out and sign up for it there is no cost associated with this um coming up at the West Orange Public Library November 15th there's an anchor property tax relief program uh this is intended to guide you navigate you through the application uh process which is fast approaching I believe that's December 6th and it could be a little bit daunting so if you attend this seminar perhaps you can uh get some easy or even difficult questions answered on how to uh apply for these for this program uh as uh councilwoman castelino uh pointed out yesterday was our annual Veterans Day ceremony uh unfortunately I was not able to attend because uh I'm coming off of uh of being sick in fact I'm I'm feeling better tonight thank you um but there were uh um Joe Brennan who himself is a Vietnam veteran um is the uh uh MC of the ceremony of course the uh West Orange Elks and the VFW is involved uh each year in the program they're great Community Partners and um I believe councilwoman Williams and councilwoman celino were there yesterday uh Pastor Adams uh who himself is a US Navy veteran uh was there and uh Rabbi kasowitz was there to uh deliver the benediction invocation and the gentleman that you see on the uh left there are from the uh Essex troop uh the um and from the Essex trbe right here in in West Orange and they uh participate in the um with the council members in the laying of the um the wreaths uh the tradition started by the Gold Star Mothers back during World War II per World War I I might be mistaken uh also the uh junior Roc Air Force Junior r RC partic anticipated as did the uh West Orange High School uh band quartet um that sang uh provided the music for Taps um also uh new to town hall um you you may have noticed if you came in downstairs is welcome to West orang Town Hall these are wayfinder signs uh they're going to be on the first floor and this uh that was the lower level I'm sorry this is on the first floor and there's on the second floor and now this is a work in progress this is only our first edition there's going to be some updates as we uh as as we find out what works what's confusing and what will work better we will change this up uh but the these will be uh on every floor and it will guide uh residents who come into town hall to uh helpfully uh hopefully find uh out where they're going uh uh without um getting lost and as I say these will be on every floor there's going to be one uh between the first and the uh between the lower level and the first floor and that one is going to be uh essentially a mini version of the eign outside so uh I'll be updating announcements there as people walk by they'll get some uh some notification of that uh if you want to uh email the council as was mentioned by council president there is no Zoom uh there is no public comment from the zoom audience but you can contact the council atwest dar.org and send them all an email at once uh thank you very much council president for your Indulgence and at this time I'd like to pass the mic to uh my colleague Mr py thank you Joe hi Anthony pesi representing County Executive Joe de fenzo uh just a couple uh upcoming events um before Joe puts the holiday light slide up while you put it up uh so Holiday Lights is a become a a tradition at turtleback Zoo um this year begins on November 22nd and on a range of dates continues to December 31st um last year we or every year we ask residents to bring uh either non-p perishable food items uh new toys or Used winter coats uh the public is uh bring stuff you know Open Arms the the the way people think of others during the holiday season is is magnificent magnificent uh last year for instance we we collected uh 28 tons of items um during this uh six- week program and I know uh a lot of our food is uh donated to the Community Food Bank in New Jersey and they always tell us that the food that we collect during the holiday season uh is a major supplier and helps them sustain themselves during the months of December and January um so there is no admission to Holiday Lights the only admission like I said is the non food winter coats or or used toys um at the bottom you'll see on the bottom left is the historic Holiday House Tour uh which is uh Saturday and Sunday December 7th and December 8th uh one of the stops on the tour which is self-guided is the um Edison site and Glenmont um information about those two events are on our website which is essexcounty nj.org and then uh finally if we can just back up the calendar a little bit uh before Thanksgiving on November 21st starting at 9:00 a.m. at the Cherry Blossom Welcome Center in Branchwood Park is our Thanksgiving food distribution uh we're going to have frozen turkeys and boxes of food 1,000 of each uh while supplies last uh we know that inflation is uh you know hurting everyone this time of year we want to make sure that we give everyone an opportunity to have a nice Thanksgiving dinner um and anyone in ess's County can participate in that event thank you thank you Mr pug Ley um and Mr Fagan uh we will now open public comment to those that are in the gallery please approach the microphone give us your name and uh address uh you will have five minutes to address the Town Council been through this drill before name is Philip lnof 11 London Avenue here in West Orange first of all and I realize that all the provisional votes have not been cast but the way it looks councilwoman castelino I will give you an early congratulations that's the way it looks like it's going thank you to council president Rutherford thank you for your service I'm sorry it didn't work for you uh I hear my comment this evening is dealing with ordinance number 2881 d34 which is an emergency special emergency appropriation in an amount of not to exceed of 1.8 million dollar to fund contractually required Severance liabilities uh I've lived in this town a long time since 1977 I've always believed that when we pass a budget on behalf of the township it covers all what CPA I will say generally accepted accounting principles which means when you have employees who are earning Severance during their term that money is being funded in each budget and we as presidents are paying our share of the those taxes to cover the seits to be told now that there is a special emergency allocation of 1.8 million dollar is unconscionable it is deceptive it is not fair to the residents of this Township I urge each one of you to either vote against it to begin with on first reading or at least to find out how many people the list of names that are included in this amount it should never have hit and special emergency allocation to fund and I think you as our Council Representatives need to pay attention to that and candidly if there is a clawback provision for inappropriate accounting that should be enforced and maybe that will come out during the uh uh this this special audit that's being asked for thank you thank you sir good evening Town Council staff and neighbors Johnson you have to give us your name and address my name is Stephen Johnston and I live at 49 Sheridan Avenue in West Orange I rise tonight to request that the Town Council pass an ordinance requiring that all publicly accessible single occupancy restrooms display a g a gender neutral sign in other words ensure that restrooms available to the public and used one person at a time are not restricted based on gender single use occupancy gender neutral restroom bills have been passed in Maplewood Montclair Jersey City and Princeton and an executive order was issued in Hoboken many have been in in place for years New York City required single occupancy restrooms to be gender neutral in 2016 the entire state of New York followed in 2021 the state of California also required gender neutral signage on single occupancy restrooms as of 2017 there are several reasons to pass such a bill these include gender Equity disability rights and lgbtq plus safety we've all seen lines outside of a women's restroom as men did not wait recently while in a Milburn restaurant I saw a line of individuals form outside a women's single use restroom as the men's single use restroom stood empty this legislation removes an arbitrary and insubstantial demarcation that forces women to wait for a restroom for no reason other than a sign on a door as an individual with a disability signage on a single occupancy restroom can delay access and so cause distress this leaves individuals who need access to a restroom as soon as possible stranded and in the awkward position of waiting in pain having to ignore a bathroom gender sign or begging others to move up in a line allowing single occupancy restrooms to be open to anyone regardless of gender can remove this barrier and Quicken access even the knowledge that all single use restrooms in the township will not be barred to someone based on gender will Aid those like me who live with the distress of a digestive disability as a member of the lgbtq plus Community I've been misgendered on numerous occasions for those who fall outside of the gender binary gendered restrooms force a non-binary person to make a difficult choice that could impact their safety a female friend was once told she was in the wrong restroom because she wore a pant suit requiring that single-use restrooms have gender neutral signage prevents the self-righteous from policing restrooms gender expression and queer bodies the passage of this bill will help ensure members of the queer Community can move through Society with more comfort knowing that they will not be turned away where single occupancy restrooms exist in West Orange this legislation is supported by the American Psychological Association and the National Institutes of Health which support gender neutral restroom policies as essential for health and well-being as I have said since June 2024 when I first brought this bill to the Township's attention I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have our neighbors here in New Jersey have seen the value of this legislation entire states have as well millions of people live with the benefit of the right to of bathroom access regardless of gender and you can add West Orange to that number thank you thank you good evening my name is Joseph vinaa I live at 34 Stone Drive congratulations to councilwoman calino on your reelection I'm here basically to speak on an ordinance that involves three words quality of life I understand that there's an ordinance that's pres that was passed on first reading before the council which is now before the planning board which is an ordinance to prohibit popup parties in neighborhoods that ordinance will be coming back to the council and I wanted to speak this evening because I don't know if I'll be available when it's before the council uh this is an important ordinance because I think the quality of life is important to everyone in this town I lived in this town for over 50 years in fact one of the council women wom who women who ran for election had quality of life on one of her election brochures uh we have an issue in Olstead and I've been advised by members of the police department it's also an issue in other parts of town of parties that are quot quote popup parties the problem we've had for at least three years is that prior to a party being held in a private residence it's advertised on social media by what appears to be a professional party host tells tells people who the dish jockey is going to be who happens to be someone probably with a great following which draws a lot of people how much the party is going to cost to attend and the location and other things this is what happens on the day before the party uh the outside or the outdoor Johns are delivered additionally tables and chairs are delivered and deposited on the driveway and Lawn on the day of the party which is usually on a Saturday at around noon a dish jockey arrives starts putting his equipment together on on the deck by the pool and the music starts by about 1:00 cars start to arrive in the neighborhood the cars continue all day and as the music continues in addition to the loud music which is heard all over the night you can't be in your home without hearing this music you can't have someone on your deck without hearing the music and not being able to have a conversation the cars inundate the entire neighborhood from Pleasant Valley way up to Stone Drive and all across streets the host of the party I don't know whether it's the owner of the home but it's it's it's they put a woman at the the gate the entrance of the backyard where the pool is at a table and that's the woman to whom the attendees have to pay to attend the party during the party in between the music announcements they announced the cost of the that's being sold at the party obviously that's a violation of the ABC requirements there are other violations which I'll go into uh during the day from about 1:00 till whenever the party ends now if the police do arrive if they are called by 11 o'clock at least the Music Stops if the music doesn't if the police don't arrive then the music continues till maybe midnight during the day it get so congested that if the police are called they don't let residents drive into their own neighborhood unless they prove or show that their residents because there are so many cars the cars are parked corner to corner driveway entrance to driveway entrance in front of homes during the day people are walking throughout the neighborhood mostly going to their cars because rather than pay for the alcohol that's being served at the party the party to which they had a paid admission charge they have their own beverages in the car so they drink alcoholic beverages soft drinks and and um soft uh fast food by the time the part's over maybe sometime after 11 o'clock cars are driving through the neighborhood screeching going through our driveways making K turns and even during the day which is so disturbing you'll see these nice kids you know leaving the party and they're walking into someone's driveway or backyard to urinate it's absolutely disgusting now uh one of my neighbors had even told me that she had spoken to a particular council person here and was told the parties are okay they're not illegal my son goes to it well let me tell you you can't run a business in a private residents according to the zoning laws in a z in an R zone in a Township of West Orange so the fact that someone is charging people to attend a party in their home charging people to buy alcohol beverages in their home that's illegal now having spoken to the police uh the problem is that even though it's a zoning violation our zoning official doesn't work on the weekends so no matter how many people call the zoning office it's it's a voicemail what's more problematic is that the zoning official lives maybe three houses away around the corner and she is also unfortunately for her like all the neighbors inundated with the noise the congestion in the cars but one good thing about it is and I don't want to make a joke out of it but you get to meet your neighbors because on a Sunday morning the morning after the parties the neighbors are out walking throughout the neighborhood in front of their homes picking up bottles cans fast food wrappers and condoms which are left on the street after the part's over this is an absolute disgrace uh I don't know how much more I have to tell you uh but I don't think you want it in your neighborhood we don't want it in ours now uh the questions I'd like the council to answer this evening at the end of public comment are one how many of you have ever gone to a family party to celebrate a birthday an anniversary an engagement a barisa anything and had to pay to go to a party in a private house I've asked people from Bergen County to Mammoth County no one's ever had to do that I don't know if how many of you have but if you have I think it's absurd and the other question is if any of you do Vote or want to vote against this ordinance please tell us this evening the reasons why you'd vote against it so that when it does come up for a second reading members of the neighborhood and the other neighborhoods where this occurs could appear here and respond to that thank you very much good evening thisan good evening Council I I just would like to follow up on um Mr litn offs Miss Ruden can you state your name and address for the sure Joyce Ruden Woodland Avenue Council elect um I just wanted to follow up on Mr lman um concerns about the ordinance 284 288 1-24 and I know I'm going to sound a little bit like an owl but I have a lot of who's who wrote this who is this for and who on the council will authorize spending on $1.8 million when we don't know have any information in the this um special emergency authorization of who is getting this this is the exact opposite of transparency and this should never have been brought to the council so I urge you to get information to what appears like several or one golden parachutes and um discuss this with the citizens of West Orange and do not do not pass this forward into second reading thank you so much good evening Council Michaela Bennett Old Indian Road uh good okay uh the council was misled to believe that they had the authority to appoint the law department head for a term in excess of what the law allows it is true that the mayor authorized by njsa 4069 a-43 May appoint Municipal department heads the relevant statute reads as follows 3-13 dob each department shall be headed by a director who shall be appointed by the mayor with the advice and consent of the council each department head Shall Serve during the term of the office of the mayor appointing him and until the appointment and qualification of his successor what this statute means is the mayor May appoint department heads to serve during her term the department head will serve during her term and will only hold over until the new mayor appoints her successor this does not prescrib the length of the term the length of the term of the appointment is found at njsa 4A col 9- 139 the council was led to believe otherwise that guidance was misleading inaccurate and false in the agreement for services for the township attorney of the township of West Orange the third whereas Clause States whereas njsa 40 col 69a 43 a section of the fauler ACT provides that quote each department head Shall Serve during the term of the office of the mayor appointing him and until the appointment and qualifications of his successor I'm adding emphasis here which takes precedence over njsa 40a colon 9- 139 requiring that the appointment of the municipal attorney be limited to a term of one year suggesting that the state statutes were in conflict with one another they are not the mayor appointing department heads during her term is not in opposite to the length of the term of appointment being limited to one year by State Statute leaving aside the concerns that language in the agreement raises about whomever drafted it and their ability to D digest and advise on law the council must correct their actions that violate law the appointment of a municipal attorney is authorized by state statute I read to you what that states that means a mayor shall only recommend the appointment of a municipal attorney for a term of one year this is further supported by the long-standing history of the West Orange Township attorney appointment for every year that Mr Tren was appointed as Township attorney his appointment was for a term of one year as the statute requires it is only during the McCartney Administration that the council was misled and advised to violate State Statute and that error should be corrected I am asking that this Council resend all contracts and resolutions that violate this state law the mayor may cure by recommending appointments of her department heads for the term prescribed by law at her earliest opportunity but the council may not perpetuate an unlawful act and it was unlawful to appoint Mr Tran for a term longer than one year with the time that I have left I would just like to raise the ordinance the ordinance sits on for first reading uh 288 1-24 if this Administration will not tell you who they should tell you how many how many employees require you to pass require you by contract to pass an emergency appropriation of $1.8 million how many they won't tell you who have them tell you how many I'll bet you it's one maybe more but I'll bet you that one is involved and you need to know because there should be no contractual obligation that causes you to emergency appropriate nearly $2 million that's not how your up sh and I thank you but just if I could finish the thought and that's not appropriate for you to approve thank you hello Lawrence Callen Lincoln Avenue um I was out campaigning and and learned a lot about the town I just want to report uh just some observation the biggest issue was that the taxes are too high I particularly uh heard comments from Seniors who say they can hardly afford to live in their house anymore um they're waiting for um a godsend of a a bill from the governor to stay in New Jersey or something like this and they also mentioned their friends that have moved out and when they didn't have enough money to live in their homes that things didn't end too well for them many times they the shock and the stress of moving caused Health crisis for these people so this financial crisis is also Health crisis um observation about some of the the bills on the agenda the 1.8 million I'm sure the people that I I campaign that I met while campaigning would be against that they'd be against the $160,000 engineering survey for Crystal Lake um I know it's attached to a grant to to refurbish or probably pave over and cut down trees and just Urban urbany this uh C cify this this area they'd be against that too I mean we can't just look at a grant and say oh my God this is great and then pay money for something toward the Grant and then when you look at the overall outcome of what the grant is it could be uh NE uh negative for the town for the long-term health of the Town um I I went to the Crystal Lake um and be uh because I saw uh advertisement from Doug Adams campaign literature and it was wonderful to visit um right behind uh the closed down bowling alley and um I walked there and there's this old man fishing and uh he says he's been there for 65 years fishing and he said it used to be pointed toward the condominium he said this used to be full of animals and woods and this was wonderful he said they um they did um you know they fixed this and they they did dredge some of the the lake and some of the fish um became uh you know a little more uh varied he says there there's uh there's perch and there's there's U Blue Gill and there used to just be catfish whatever but he he wouldn't uh I don't think he would appreciate if this became a non-natural more urban urban uh citified area where he he couldn't really just spend his last year's fishing and I think we have too few places like that in West Orange so we should consider that also there's an animal control um agreement with um Rosland for $116,000 a year I think that we we did the animal control for them I think we may be selling ourselves short by charging only 16,000 I mean that's hardly enough to to employ somebody uh who's in animal control so unless there's a sweet deal from rosand toward us a reciprocity it doesn't make sense I think it should be a higher amount um that's basically it I just feel sorry for the seniors that are uh you know we have to get the budget down lower for whatever I think inflation and actually in coming you know toward 2000 uh to the next year is probably going to be lower than this three or 4% we should have zero or something zero budget or lower or or maybe even lower the the tax have one year where the the people at West orang say we're not only are taxes not going to rise but your property tax but they're going to be lowered that's what you know some seniors were just hoping for thank you very much thank you sir anyone else good evening Council Mr ORD my name is Richard fredman I'm the president and treasurer of Belair at West Orange Condominium Association uh consisting of 250 homes on about 165 Acres uh we all probably know about the fires in Livingston which consume parts of 192 Acres uh many of our residents are concerned and this does doesn't involve balair at West Orange it actually involves much of the township of West Orange uh what we can do with the township could do to lower the risk of a fire occurring in our town uh many of our acres are heavily wooded many of our streets Baxter Frederick's kovak hunt and Rome are somewhat surrounded by trees some of it belongs to the township some of it are ours I called the fire department today for some advice on that but I was only able to leave a message I would suggest that if it's not taken seriously at this point in time time it should be we have a lot of dry acres and it doesn't take much without the rain for a fire to start somehow I would love for the community the uh Council uh to communicate with the fire department and send out notices uh to various areas to see what we can do so that a fire doesn't start preventative action can go a long way to preventing the kind of disaster that could possibly occur in our community uh and certainly um perhaps the town engineer I Used to Know Lenny leapor when he uh before he retired for many years uh could go about clearing some of the areas where we could just have a tnd box fire started and decrease the chances of it so I don't have any questions per se but I just want to tell you how important it is that we look into this and whatever we could do to prevent it uh will be money well spent thank you thank you good evening T Dei Bernette Terrace I think um those of us who have attended Council meetings in the past over the years uh there has been no shortage of situations where information provided by the Administration has been lacking or misleading or outright false um the $1.8 million resolution to for emergency spending is one of those examples where there's no information given to us there's no uh uh calculations that show how the amount was arrived at for whom uh this is a municipality when you come to work for an municipality and a public setting your information can be disseminated um the information that is missing is how much and to whom the money is going to um and I think that this resolution should be uh rejected until that information is provided I also agree with uh another Resident U Miss Bennett uh with reference to the in information or the legal advice that was given to the council in connection with um Mr TRX and the uh with reference to his contract um there have been so many instances where that kind of information has been provided in this instance it's provided by the person who benefits from it most um I think that places a huge responsibility on the part of the council to knowing now that that information was in conflict with State Statute to fix it now and tonight um and let the cards fall as they may um I think that's all I've got for tonight thank you thank you anyone else all right seeing seeing none uh public comment is now closed I do want to thank all of you for uh your comments uh we will begin with councilwoman celino sure thank you council president okay let me start off with um so uh let's start off with the $1.8 million um the accumulated uh leave payout that is 27 individuals we do have a the list we were given it today um we do have the names the breakdown uh individuals don't only need to get paid out um they they have the choice I believe in one lump some or they could break it over a few years and I'm going to uh let Administration or or CFO answer this question council president when you want him to to respond so but as far as that's said um there's 27 individuals there's um I'm just reading the names of folks that have been with us for 40 years uh older contracts uh banked their sick days so those numbers do add up um but that's what the contracts were back then and again I'll let the CFO uh talk to this and the procedure and and the process and Mr vinaa thank you for coming and talk about the papa parties I definitely agree with you I um had asked the chief to see if he could find something that we could put on the books I spent the majority of my time this summer talking with residents and uh and uh discussing their quality life issues um just talked to somebody this morning that there was event uh on Valley Road Saturday night that the police were at uh twice and so yeah something needs to get done um I I hope my colleagues will support it when it comes back to uh to us and um I'll let them talk to it but yeah I will be supporting it um this craziness has to stop in the township and I know there are a few situations and In fairness to my colleagues they're worried about if somebody has an event and they don't want it interpreted as a popup party so we do have to be careful with that and I'm good with that too but overall I just can't believe the behavior of some residents now we have a a a mercantil license so if you you know work from home or any business in town you have to register we have ABC uh uh uh requirements um just the violations just amaze me and um really disappointing and um but we did we did pass uh couple meetings ago the uh open container that you cannot have open container alcohol or use of cannabis in the Township in public spaces so our police officers do have a tool in their tool tool built for that and so hopefully they'll be able to utilize uh some of these us it could help them with some of these situations when they arise and they're in your you know come to a neighborhood and see that um but again everything about balance and hopefully we'll be able to figure this and the ordinance we we'll pass through but yeah we just had another event this ped Saturday night and uh very disappointing to see that another neighborhood that this was carrying on for for many years which is just ridiculous beyond belief um what else um yeah the uh Mr frean thank you for coming down uh the the fires have been scary really really scary even traveling on the park with this weekend um I had asked the chief I'm not sure if it went out on Friday or Thursday if a reverse uh I know he's away now if the reverse I don't know what we call it 911 or 411 with information to to go out to the residents because I know we did have alerts on Facebook not everybody's not on Facebook uh my myself included I don't go on there too often so um we and there's folks that just don't look at our website so um I'm not sure maybe Mr smala could confirm if that went out to notify a residents via phone phone call to beware and to be alert of fire safety in their neighborhoods um any other um comments I'll defer to the administration and let me see oh Crystal Lake so yes so so um at the last meeting I had mentioned that uh Senator mcken advocated and we have a million-dollar Grant coming to us for designated for Crystal Lake um so the soft cost would probably I I assume that this tonight is included within that Grant re refund for swt P for and that was one of my questions when we get to the resolution because it usually is um it you know we're not looking to urbanize the lake we're looking for the residents to enjoy it I mean the history of that lake has always been to for for our community to enjoy that and great history there that Mr Fagan even has I believe history boards up there did you put up there with the scouts reproduction Sun yeah reproduction Sun yeah so yeah we want to encourage fishing and and quiet Recreation we don't want to urbanize the lake uh some of the that funds will also be to improve aspa itself I know they're in need of a new stage for the floor or or whatever you know the recation department and uh as you know deems uh uh viable for that project um but again it will come to the council and at that point we'll be able after a survey um or study is done be able to determine what will go there uh but that will be on the recommendation of our Recreation director but yeah but I I have no intent of seeing that urbanized we want to see our residents enjoy it and it's its beauty and I know that it has been stopped with fish each year there's a a fishing derby for the uh uh young ones in uh in June for the little ones so uh we hope to see that again this this June as well and I think that is it for me council president oh wait and Mr Johnston sorry um your comments I didn't get a chance to call you today I asked you for your phone number that we'll we'll have a discussion but yeah we're we're always going to do what we need to do I know the chief had responded to you over the weekend again uh that we uh that the mayor said she would move forward within the public spaces and but we do have to have a conversation with our business owners to see how the what what uh and how impacts them directly and and the cost um that would be included but I don't think anybody from what I heard at the last meeting was too much against anything it was just more about making sure our business owners can Implement uh without a huge cost impact and to see what that is so we just need time to study things before we we uh pass ordinances any case thank you very much coun president thank you councilwoman councilwoman gabber Michael good evening West Orange thank you all for joining us here in person to those of you online um I am going to start off with Mr lit one off thank you so much for uh your advocacy and speaking up about the uh $1.8 million Bond um I too have many questions our council president sent a detailed email uh today asking for all the information that most of you have brought up tonight um for me it's important that a we need to see the actual contracts for the vill to make sure they're valid um I would like the opinion from Our Town Council because there I would like to know who's saying that's contractually obligated um and then who is it for we just found out right before we walked in we received the packet of names of who and the amount for each payout um but it would been nice to have Thursday evening when we received our packets because I don't have time during a meeting to sit and read through these many pages where I'm supposed to be paying attention to a public comment B the rest of the meeting so I was going to ask that this be tabled so that way my colleague and I have the time to read it go through it and then have time to ask questions um also because you know we're we were in the dark about this um so hold on I lost my train of thought I also would recommend that we go an executive session if it's needed in the next meeting to discuss whatever it is because this is sensitive information um I don't know that if the Administration can place this on the website that I'm going to defer to the administration they might they might not be able to with names maybe titles or departments in the payout amount I'm not sure but again I defer to the administration to what they can and cannot put online um so that's how I feel also um It's Our obligation to the T to the town it's Our obligation to the town dictates that we get written confirmation from the comproller that this payment is not unlawful um and I've read a report and understand that West Orange has identif was identified as violating this law so I just want assurance that this type of payoff is legal um that's really important to me we have to make sure we do our due diligence before we vote on bonding $1.8 million um so I'll put that to the side uh Mr Johnson thank you so much for your advocacy for coming coming out as you know um 100% supportive I've had conversations with you on the phone I've sent you emails I even brought this up in the last meeting and asked for a followup um the our in business administrator did send an email that this is something the mayor is supportive of and you know they are going to place it um once legal has a chance to look through all the paperwork so I hope that will happen the next meeting if not the meeting after but I am 100% supportive so thank you for coming out here tonight and for your advocacy um Mr Vina uh thank you as well um quality of life is very important for residents and I understand what you and your neighbors are going through and I'm sorry um I actually happened to drive by one day to visit a constituent and I guess one of those part parties was happening and it was really difficult it was like cars double parked people in the streets in their cars like so you have double parked Cars and Cars on one side and it took me about 10 or 15 minutes just to drive a few blocks and it was just Madness so if this is happening often um I can understand why quality of life might be diminished for neighbors and for residents um you know we made a motion I believe I don't know if I made if someone made the motion I think I second it but I am in support of this I think that we have to reward the ordinance a little bit but I'm sorry for your quality of life issues and for the residents that have experienced it throughout Town um to answer your question I myself personally have never paid for a party you know but you know and I'll leave it at that um Miss Ruden thank you for coming out speak Council congratulations um I covered the 1.8 million U Miss Bennett thank you so much for your due diligence and your advocacy always um you always come here with facts and I plan to make a motion during a new business for us to resend the resolution approving uh the directors so that way we can follow State Statute and do the right thing you we're not perfect but we learn and we fix our mistakes and we move on it's all about good governance and doing the right thing so thank you for your due diligence Mr con thank you for coming out to speak taxes are high yes you know I was shocked as a freshman council person last year when the mayor proposed a 16.2% tax increase you to like rub my eyes I thought it was a typo I thought it was 6.2 um but we are working diligently and you know this year council president worked really hard in the budget alongside the council and he was able to reduce the increase so you have him to thank for that and you know we voted to support that so we are working hard um for the people and trying to find ways to bring income in so that way taxes aren't skyrocketing I don't think that we can ever reduce them I don't know that's possible um but we'll work hard to try to stabilize and Mr Freeman thank you for coming out here tonight um just so you know there is a Statewide Fire band due to dry conditions and in due to increased wild fire activity all throughout the state um no fireworks fire permits are banned um so we will do our best I know that there have I have received calls from residents who are concerned with fire pits and I believe that the the fire department has been called so there you know people are doing their due diligence and working together we're all in this together if you see something say something um and Mr doobi thank you as well for your advocacy and for always coming out here and and speaking so on that note I conclude my response to public comment I will ask the administration for an update on uh contracts to see where we are with our police and fire with our Union contracts with ashme the teamsters and the dispatchers Union so if we can get an update just to see where we are thank you so much thank you councilwoman uh and I'm going to excuse myself briefly but councilwoman uh Scara followed by councilwoman Williams if I'm not back before she finishes okay great thank you thank you Mr pesia and Mr Fagan for your wonderful presentations as usual and for all the Vets I want to say um thank you to the students in vets unfortunately school was in session and I work at Washington school so this year un I was not able to attend but uh it looks like everyone had a wonderful time Phil itoff uh I just want to say thank you to you uh for taking a detailed look at the budget and um helping us understand that this is not the the way we do budgeting and that and that what we should be doing is we should have this in the budget we should be forecasting for it and we really need to look each month at our budget and understand where we are and I think um councilwoman gber Michael made some uh very nice uh suggestions I have I really agree with all of them including looking at contracts and getting a better handle on where we are everyone knows we've got 170 million dollars of debt I've been concerned about it you've been concerned about it with 11% carrying costs on that it has to get under control and I'm hoping our new CFO is going to do that and I think with our new Council we are going to make sure that every month we were looking at our town finances and I would like to ask you to think about serving on our citizens budget Advisory Board because we need more voices in our community who are knowledgeable we need the CPAs and the finance guys to step up and hold us accountable so thank you very much and round up some friends because budget season will be coming soon um uh Stephen Johnson uh I I understand all of your points I think they are good ones and I I think our Administration uh will follow up and assess the feasibility of your request I know I've seen some um emails from the chief and I'm sure he will get back to us on that jovina thank you so much for coming out I am so sorry that I was unable to read your concerns they were so much more effective with you reading them but I want to let you know that I did read it for btim to Chief Abit and he assured me that we were going to get a handle on this situation AG I want to assure you that I it is shocking that this kind of behavior has gone on in our town and disturbance of our residents for so long I will of course be voting for The ordinance as is um I just I just can't even believe that this has happened in our town you know I grew up in our town and went through our schools I've been here a long time and I cannot believe that this kind of stuff is going on and we need to uh to really follow up on it and I think the chief will do that I'm a yes Joyce Ruden congratulations thank you for coming out tonight um I'm looking forward to working with you Michaela Bennett thank you so much you've brought um your expertise is also invaluable you have brought to light um a problem that I have had for a long time where getting complete and accurate legal advice has been um very difficult for us particularly for me and it's been a problem I've had to go outside and basically get a lot of my own do my own research and get advice from those wherever I could um I think the fact that there's no one here from the legal department tonight to address the these concerns makes a statement about the lack of attention to detail and the the lack of advice that we've gotten but um please continue to keep us honest um Lawrence Cohen thank you for all you do and for learning so much about the election process and how the problems of our neighbors you know how concerned I am with our taxes and with our seniors but it's not just our seniors we've had I've had neighbors having to move out of town because uh our finances are such a our taxes are so out of control um and uh terms of Crystal Lake I agree with you I was just shocked and confused when I got Pastor Adam's flyer about development at Crystal Lake I had not really heard anything about it I mean I know that we did get a grant to clean up the lake um and I think that's a great idea aidea but I do have a question to the administration of how much is it going to cost the municipality we have a million dollars for the cleanup how much are we investing in this endeavor and I can't vote for it until there's a lot more detail about exactly what we plan to do there um the animal control I don't know enough about and I would defer to the administration on that terms of the costs associated with it but zerob based budgeting is something I've talked about for a long time too and I think that would be a a good goal to move towards uh Richard fredman uh I understand the fires are uh really out of control we also have a lot of neighbors that like to have fire pits and we have a lot of um residents who have called me and are calling about that particularly at this time when we have such a problem um so thank you for bringing that out and I will ask our Administration to answer your question about exactly what we can do if anything to assist and Todd doovi once once again thank you for coming out uh of course I totally agree with you and we I don't think we have legal counsel to answer your questions but maybe someone else can that's about it thank you councilwoman councilwoman thank you council president I um want to say good evening to the residents of West dor thank you um Mr py and thank you Mr Fagan for your information um regarding the $1.8 million Bond appropriation and those that spoke regarding uh that concern and that uh resolution um very disappointed that this is happening at the 11th hour at the end of the year um when it was not a part of our budgeting process um but I do understand um that we do have to pay out the people that have to be paid or that are retiring um obviously the administration will go into further detail um and explain uh whatever can be disclosed publicly but we do have the information in front of us identifying uh the individuals and the amounts that they will receive um there's been a lot of concern in and a lack of trust um over the past couple of years with this Administration um um these are the types of things that cause the concern um and while we can't go into talking publicly about the individuals um certainly I would hope and expect that this would not ever occur um in our Administration again I want to thank Mr dyak for everything that he's done thus far um I feel that financially with his uh coming to us as a Township that there has been a tremendous amount of transparency he's extremely informative when he comes to the meetings and gives us information as well as if we call contact him directly with any inquiries um so things will continue to get better um things will continue to improve and things will continue to get um more transparent and I'm confident of that um as far as the fires are concerned um certainly there is the state ban as my my colleague mentioned and as far as fire pits are concerned um please everyone in West Orange do not light any fires do not throw cigarette butts out we have a very very very um High uh incident of of fire it it appears that it would be common sense um but we all know that Common Sense isn't always so common um but anything that the administration can do um whether it be updating the eboard and putting um more messaging around town would certainly be helpful and an effort that we can continue and and try and protect our community in Livingston the fires are very devastating and I'm not even sure if they are 100% contained um when I was in Livingston on Friday they the fires were still going um as far as the popup parties are concerned so yes I did identify the popups as a strong issue for for me um because of some of the language um I do believe that popup parties are a nuisance in our community and I do um I'm very sorry that they have continued um and have devastated the neighborhoods in the way that has been described initially when the first pop-up party um was brought to our attention as the body the governing body it wasn't as um egregious as they have become so unfortunately when we first talked about it there was one particular um resident that was having the pop-up parties since the initial complaint has has happened or occurred a couple of years ago um obviously the popup parties are in different places throughout town I think that we do have to be mindful um whether or not any of us has attended a pop-up party and or a party and had to pay is quite irrelevant what we need to be focused and concerned on is whether or not these popup parties are creating a nuisance to the residents has nothing to do with whe whether or not we've attended before um and our concern is the nuisance to the residents so yes we do need to figure out the appropriate language um but we don't need to and and it's parties for profit is is the concern and and the right terminology a popup party is my concern because again people have popup parties so I don't want to create an ordinance where we are Banning a specific title and not the occurrence or the incident and I think what the appropriate name would be is parties for profit I don't think that that is something that any of us want to see happen and continue to be a nuisance and or a disturbance so I think that is something that can be addressed is the title and not necessarily the popup party um pop-up parties happen all the time it's the parties for profit um I agree with you uh Mr Cohen just going out knocking on doors taxes are extremely high um not just in West West Orange but taxes are High um inflation is devastating um our seniors who are on um incomes that we don't have a lot of room um per for people to just live we have we're in we're in a very very very expensive Community but at the end of the day we have to be mindful as a Township as a municipality Pace in point an additional $1.8 million appropriation in November November we're we're November we haven't even receed the capital budget my question is are we going to get a capital budget this year and and you know we just have a lot of of cost that we have to Wrangle in um so I'm an agreement as far as Crystal Lake is concerned um yes we do need a little bit more information about the cost to the municipality to Township and what these upgrades are going to be a lot of times when you get um a grant there is also a a match or some output from the township we have not discussed that yet so hopefully the admin Administration will be able to respond to those questions and um I think that about covers I think that covers everything that was addressed except for Mr Johnson and The Single occupancy restrooms again I'm supportive of that I've spoken to you about that and I have no issue um with with that change again we discussed how it would impact our businesses um and we may need to make sure that there is no financial hardship um if we do um move forward with passing the ordinance but I'm definitely in support um in every capacity and I do believe that it would um certainly be a move in the right direction for our community I think that completes um all of my responses to public comment um certainly waiting for more information from the administration thank you thank you councilwoman uh as always Mr Fagan and Mr blei we certainly do thank you for your timely information um especially this uh you know two things Mr Fagan mentioned the heightened fire risk that has been well discussed already uh and the anchor application program I think that is crucial so uh please for those of you that are seniors that are looking to take advantage of the anchor program uh please do stop by the library on November 15th uh you can check our website for additional details um Mr linov I do agree we should not have needed an emergency uh appropriation now I understand that that's a special designation so when we get to that obviously I want to have that discussed um we have had some discussion about this today um not enough to uh at least for me to vote on it um but some of what was shared um with us today is it it it contradicts some of the opinions that people have so number one it's my understanding that this money has already been paid this is not money that will be paid so the bond is coming after the payments have been made to uh spread those payments out over the course of time with interest um but if that is the case then you know I don't understand why it's an emergency appropriation if we knew it was coming I would assume that that would be in the normal appropriation process and we certainly do have some additional questions that we will handle when we get to 2881 uh Mr Johnson Johnston I am in support of uh and we've had this conversation multiple times uh of your uh recommendation to the council and to the mayor uh that all single use restrooms be gender neutral uh it's been done in other municipalities and in other states um Mr Vaya um I've never had to pay to attend a private party at a private home however I generally don't go empty-handed um so while they're may not be a stated price generally I will bring something as a gracious guest um and I think part of uh my concern with regard to the way the language uh represented these parties in the ordinance is that folks could decide to um um have a charge not necessarily that it goes to pay make a profit but for uh the college graduate or the high school graduate or the um you know newlywed couple or couple that is to be newlywed uh the other concern I had is that it was a knee-jerk reaction or at least it felt that way um I if we're going to do it especially since the summertime is has now passed I think we should be clear about what we're trying to accomplish uh and one one of the things I've said that has gotten a little bit of push back which I really don't understand why um but people that are going to break the law are going to break law right so what do we do what are the tools that we have when folks cross the line um and then the last part of that was what about very large parties that have no charge for anything including admission or alcohol or anything uh you still have that nuisance um if no one was charging but you still had cars parked on both sides of the street which I've had in my neighborhood um uh at certain points of the year it you have these parties that are attracting a large number of folks that is still the same nuisance um and so what are we doing or are we doing or are we providing an opportunity for folks to um to impact a party that is otherwise um you know in concert with the law so I I don't think we need to go quickly and that was my argument initially and I and I think we should be intentional and deliberate about how we how we craft the language so that we don't have unintended consequences especially since the peak party season has now passed um M Ruden congratulations um if she's still here yes she is congratulations uh councilwoman elect I wish you well in your tenure I wish uh Mr kovak well also um and to your point we should know who is getting the money uh there is a list here uh of those employees and there's some things that we can talk about in public and some things we can't um but in addition to the number of employees and their the amounts and the names and the titles that has been provided thankfully we got that today um we as Council mgber Michael mentioned need to make sure that the calculus was proper um and coming up with those numbers so again we'll have more discussion about that when we get to it um but we've not seen contracts and and there is very little Trust uh at this point so everything has to be double and triple checked um going to ask uh and Mr trink is available by phone or at least I'm I'm told or maybe he's on Zoom uh uh tonight I would like to know his opinion on um the state is it 40a 9- 139 where the state says director serve for one year at a time uh I've had some conversation with um one of my colleagues about this um I don't know I don't know if our ordinance is um consistent with the state or not I would certainly like to know I do think it makes it difficult for Mayors to attract quality Talent uh at the top of the org chart if that particular individual has to worry about keeping their job every single year um and there's no I'm not this is irrespective of who the mayor is um to perform that role well you're going to need competent uh talent in these multiple departments uh and I'm not sure that having to qualify for that and meet what could be political needs on an annual basis will help us get that kind of talent and if we do then my expectation would be that we'd have to pay more because they could very very well be out of a job in a year and I know some folks are going to disagree with that but would you leave your job especially if you're highly compensated or highly accomplished professional would you leave your job for a one-year assignment with no guarantee that you're not going to be out in the job market again in a year and then God forbid if you are in the job market again in a year it's probably not going to be because they have a good report uh which will make it harder to find another job so uh there does have to be some balance um and I and I recognize how we got here right it's because there is no trust it's because we get so many things time and time again done in a way that just doesn't seem right or Fair uh so I certainly do understand and share your C your your sentiment with how we got here um but I I I'm I'm concerned about the ability to deliver highquality services for a Township of 50,000 people with multiple departments if the department heads are going to have to fight for their job on an annual basis I think that would invite too much politics into that decision um and so I would make that um I I I certainly would like to know what the state says understand the rationale for what the state says um and then understand how that has played out in practice um Mr Cohen do appreciate you uh showing up tonight so I've already discussed the 1.8 million I'm not going to go back to that uh there'll be further discussion later uh with regard to Crystal Lake uh and aspac uh and the 160,000 that's on the agenda tonight I'm certain that we will have a full uh discussion about it at that time I intended as uh several of my colleagues did as well to pull that for discussion to learn more about uh what that really does and what that entails before we actually vote um and for your uh with regard to your comment about the animal control services shared service agreement uh you know that number does seem a little low but rosand is also a small town I don't know if that's a fair number I don't know I think if I'm recalling correctly two years ago we went in we did this or maybe it was a year ago but I think it was two years ago we did this same thing and there was some testimony at that time about the number of calls our uh animal control officers had to attend to in rosand uh and it was in the single digits um so you know we'll have more conversation about that tonight Mr smdo I hope you're prepared to discuss it um so while the number does seem low um it it may in actuality not be uh but it is worth understanding before we vote uh Mr fredman I want to thank you for coming tonight and representing the belir community um I think your commentary highlights uh for us uh that climate change is real and it is affecting people in ways that some folks may not have anticipated um we at under this Council we've tried to address climate change because the Administration has not taken a single major project on even though there has been agreement to do a townwide solar project in conjunction with the Board of Ed and the Board of Ed was present in the meeting and willing to work with us to do that that would have a major impact on our carbon footprint with save us tons of money on an annual basis and provide some money up front to the township but that has been sheld because of politics now because we didn't do anything major the council decided to do what we could do which was take up the tree ordinance take up the gas powerered uh blower band and other things around the edges uh that will have an impact uh but not necessarily A Major Impact uh but that is the reason why the tree ordinance has to be honored because with these conditions and now we're over 40 days with no or little or very little rain less than a half an inch in 40 days and no rain expected in the next week or so I think the next time we can feel confident about having a storm is the 21st or the 22nd I just looked at it a moment ago with these conditions we have to get we we're not going to get in front of it we're already behind but we have to do everything we can to mitigate the effects of climate change which includes a strong tree ordinance it includes a c gas powered blower band it includes a townwide solar project it includes um so many different things with regard to development whether it's per impervious uh or perious materials recyclable materials in the build um and providing other incentives for developers to be more green uh we just had a project that uh Incorporated a green roof or at least they're hoping to incorporate a green roof into their project and they're doing that because they recognize the impact that climate change is having we've already had a fire near belir um and if that fire were to happen now with the level of of how dry the the woods are between the recycling center and belir it would be devastating for that community and every single community in West Orange has the same concern so I don't know what can be done I'm glad to see our uh one of our Union representatives from the fire department here uh tonight but I don't know what we can do uh to you know improve our uh resistance to fire I I I'm happy to hear the councilwoman's suggestion I believe it was councilwoman Williams I I don't know uh to put it on the boards or to increase our Public Communication about it I support that wholeheartedly uh if there there's anything else we can do townwide I'd be supportive of that too the last thing we want to do is say we could have would have should have after we have a tragedy um so uh thank you Mr fredman um Mr doovi um I've addressed the 2881 we will address that again later I did address uh your concern with regard to Mr trink and and I was told that he's here he's available tonight so if he is available I would certainly love to hear his thoughts uh on the consistency between the state law and our local ordinance um now one of the uh with regard to uh Mr DAC before you speak on 2881 or anything else I want to be very clear for the public um while it is appropriate for him as our Chief Financial Officer to address some of these issues um most of this is not of his doing so he is picking up pieces from a prior CFO and some things he's going to agree with the way that they were done and some things he's not and some things he won't have a choice but to do them because he's joining us at this time under these circumstances so with regard to this these payments we'll have a full uh and robust discussion about them uh I'll give you an opportunity to respond in a moment uh but we'll certainly have a full conversation about it before we vote uh but also with regard to the capital bu budget um I will remind the public he just started in September so yes we should have a capital budget right and and I don't know if if um there are obstacles being put in your way in delivering that or not I do know that I have been very clear I am a one-issue voter uh when it comes to the capital budget there will be some things in there for Parks or I will vote no there will be uh some things in there for the library uh and we're going to address some flooding issues or I will vote no that's where I stand um you know we played politics with too many things and the quality of life has now been impacted to a point where I am no longer willing to even entertain a conversation about why or who or what if we're not going to do certain things for the residents of this town that is going to end my commentary on that um and I was surprised uh to hear that West Orange has been cited for violating the terminal leave payout rules and law uh so when Mr Tran is on would certainly like to hear his response to that as well uh so we've had a few items uh that have been tossed to the administration I'm going to ask Mr smdo to weigh in first followed by uh Mr detc and then if we can Mr Fagan uh get Mr trink connected with us he's not on okay uh he's not on yet I can I'll ask him to get on if you y when I'm done presenting I'll call him and see about getting right thank you okay so um so I'm going to just go down to what I've written here so um with regards to the or emergency ordinance 2881 D 24 I Amer of Mr tenac um so that would be Mr Linton L went off um Council elect councilwoman elect Ruden congratulations um Mr Cohen I believe spoke about it Mr Bennett spoke about it and Mr doovi so um Stephen Johnson so i' I've met with stevenh Johnson a few times on on a few and I know he's had multiple meetings with the mayor And in regards to this particular issue with the single use bathrooms and others um and that the administration is working forward uh toward um moving forward toward the the single use bathrooms I will let you know that I'm I'm sorry I don't see back darus uh uh so um the the chief did notify the Law Department to have try and have this on for next meeting for the 25th just so you realize that we did do an inventory of our public buildings from my understanding the only single use build uh facilities we have in our public buildings are uh three fire stations town hall and that's the only other U facility we have um so would be fire headquarters stations three and four and the basement here of town hall which I wouldn't recommend anybody [Laughter] using I'll accept you Megan um so Mr Vina um the popup party I know that um we are looking at that it has been sent to the planning board it was not heard at the last planning board meeting I am not sure what schedule's going to be on because as I'm sorry no not the plan board no not the plan it's gonna be on the next one I don't know the schedule our planning board schedule is so back and council president can attest to that so I I will talk to the director tomorrow see when this be placed on so all right so we'll talk to I'll talk to her tomorrow okay um Mr Cohen regarding Crystal Lake we received a $1 million Grant from through the governor's office um this particular resolution for tonight is to to look at how much is going to cost the uh the Township in doing the program this is nothing to do with urbanizing to your point about fishing and things of that nature I I was a kid up there I used I get up there as a kid we all used to hang out up there that was my neighborhood that area the the the vision of the the current um director of recreation is to put in a fishing pad or a fishing dock to make a path that's inclusive to walk around the entire facility to enhance the experience of the OAC that is Our intention that is what we're looking to do we're not looking to urbanized just put black Tob and somebody can walk around whatever but there's a lot to it the total cost would we're estimating right now if this project were to go through will be $1.6 million including the $1 million Grant this is what we would need to pay for it's not a matching fee the $160,000 that's on for tonight is a reimbursement of that $1 million so we have to put it up front we would be reimbursed through that Grant this is to get us an idea of to what we would like to see to be placed up in and around Crystal Lake and that's why we were asking for this money we just received this money three weeks ago yeah three weeks ago and we're working on it now because this is a time sensitive Grant it has to be completed by December of 2020 5 so we're trying to move this forward this is for the betterment of West orangs we're looking forward to making between the library and OAC and Crystal Lake we're trying to put some small little jewels in and around the the town to make it improve for the township so that's what we're looking at with that particular project um Mr fredman is it Freedman or Freeman I'm sorry Freedman I'm sorry so I don't know if you know I'm the retired fire chief for the township West orang so I know a little bit about firefighting just the Tad um I will tell you some of the areas that you're concerned about are not um publicly owned property they're private properties we just can't go on there and clean them up we would encourage our neighbors or those properties to do so but with regards to leaves themselves um our DPW is out right now they started November 1st they're going in around all the neighborhoods a lot of leaves have fallen early this year because of the drought they are out there picking up the pile because they're very large one of the things that wasn't mentioned which was a problem in the the past is cataly converters and leaves do not mix well and we've had a lot of car fires in the past we've had a lot of major fires where there was um U problems with leaves on the streets so the prevention is to make sure that we get our leaves picked up um some of the things that the citizens can help instead of putting piles in front of their house if they have if they don't have a landscaper they can actually bag them that makes them less U vulnerable so these are little things that we can do but if there is an issue you call the fire department if and you said you call today and you left a message and I'm sorry they didn't get back to you but if you feel it's an emergency you can call 911 you can also call 325 4,000 if it's a you feel it's a non-emergency but needs to be investigated the dispatch will send out a fire apparatus to to investigate and they can determine because big fires don't start big they always start start small so if you see something that's bad please let us know we'll send that and we have our our Personnel is on 247 they're ready to respond and they'll take care of it okay this is not where we I can talk to after the fact okay um so let me talk to you after the fact um when I'm done I can meet you outside talk to you more okay um so um okay what else uh um regards to uh Union contracts we were asked a question before they are ongoing right now with all our unions our labor unions we met with the all I believe every Union at least once um up to last week we're trying to negotiate still with them um and that's about as much as I'm going to say about that because we're in negotiations but we are negotiating with every Union okay um excuse me Mr smdo can we put on the next agenda a closed session to get an update to see how this is progressing that's your call if you would like to do that and please let us lose you maybe bring it up on the new business on new business we put under executive session and then we'd be happy to talk about it okay um regarding the public solar array um just so just so to give you an update one of the things from that meeting we're talking about council president what you talked about earlier was that um from that meeting what we had with these companies in the past one of the things I can report on a positive is that the Renta house is actually I had a meeting with them today on I sit on the board there we are we just received Hut approval to move forward with putting a solar array on top of the building which will help that building out um in the interim I mean since then though I know that the mayor has had conversations with the Board of Ed the board of head has decided not to partner with us they're falling out and that the mayor is actually looking and has had conversations with some of the solar panel people to continue that dialogue and to move forward because we we can't get together with the Board of Ed we decided to go on our own and that's what we're doing now okay um and then regarding the capital budget Mr detc is busting his butt since he got here um he's catching up um he does have a presentation for you next week um it will be included with what's the cstar we're going to have uh just a general presentation and I'm not going to leave I'm I'm not going to steal his Thunder I'll be the intro he could be the star of the show and he could tell you what what's going to go on with that I believe I answered all your questions but if I missed something please let me know thank you Mr maraldo uh Mr BC step out thank you council president um just to to back up uh Mr smar Aldo on the November 25th meeting uh we will have a capital presentation we we'll have some of our department heads up with some visuals uh and we'll talk about our 2024 Capital program even though we're at the end of of 2024 um backing up to uh Mr lipof and I apologize if I said your name incorrectly um we were talking or you were talking about Gap um so the the municipalities in the state of New Jersey we follow a regulatory basis of accounting or Ooa I think was the term they used to use special purpose vehicle was something that they use now um so if you look at our our Audits and it's all the audits of all the municipalities in the state of New Jersey um we receive an unmodified opinion on the regulatory basis of accounting is set forth by the Department of Community Affairs division of local government services and we receive an adverse opinion on us generally accepted accounting principles so what does that mean um so we don't acrew on our balance sheet for uh future Severance costs we also don't acrw for um you know post employment benefits such as the net uh pension liability that we share with the state of New Jersey nor do we acrw for future uh health care costs like those Legacy Health care costs um you can find some of that information in our notes to the financials um but it's not on our balance sheet um so as a as a frame of reference for just speaking about Severance liabilities and in the most recent audit which is the year ending 2022 audit um we had a an unaudited uh liability of around $ 11 million um uh for for future payouts I should say for accumulated sick vacation personal time comp time any other sort of compensatory days that a union or non-union member may have banked and available to be paid out in in retirement um so let's get back to the 1.8 million as the council president said um we've already paid made these payments to these uh former employees at this point um you know beginning with payroll period one um you know we made a sizable uh payment of $500 something, spread between seven employees um so these payments have already been made why are we doing it at the end of the year um because with the special emergency designation we can spread the impact to the taxpayers over the course of five years so that 1.8 million instead of raising it all in this year's budget or having to raise it all in next year's budget as a deferred charge for an overe expenditure of appropriation we're going to raise $360,000 of it and that's going to be the impact to the taxpayers for 2025 then 2026 will be you know another $360,000 so that has been the township strategy in the past if I go back to November 8th of 2023 which is nearly a year ago um the council passed an appr roation for 1.5 million for severance liabilities in 2022 they passed an ordinance for $950,000 in Severance liabilities in 2021 an ordinance for $500,000 in Severance liabilities so this is not anything new to the township it's a strategy so that we're not impacting the taxpayers with big lump sums all at once you know we're spreading it out now you know we can talk different strategies or maybe we're putting more money into the budget every year to fund these liabilities um and and starting with the 2025 budget I apologize for the pops on the mic my wife who does voiceover work would be very angry with me for how I speak into the microphone um you know for our 2025 budget because transparency is important um the state of New Jersey is going to require us to provide a very detailed listing of of all of our current Severance liabilities it used to be broken out just by collective bargaining unit now there's going to be a more detailed you know by employee listing um so you know that that information will be available for 2025 on a bu employee basis uh and again that's that's part of the division of local government services a new userfriendly budget requirements um so let me see if I if I'm answering all the questions um yeah so I addressed the that we don't follow Gap we follow akoa I encourage the the accountants out there if they're if they're bored one night to read through our RMA audits they're pretty interesting and there's a lot of information to gleam from our notes to the financial statements um but again back to these payouts um we've already made the payouts uh we are now asking for this special emergency uh so that we can spread the cost over and I say the cost I mean the impact to the taxpayer over five years um I think I covered everything is there anything else council president are we so do you do you know if we've been cited so so looking at the the office of State com controller they they did uh and I have I have their report in front of me so let me pull it up um they they have three findings related to and I don't know if we're all looking at the same thing but they there were three findings related to uh the 2007 sick law rule the 2010 sick law rule uh and two of those two of those findings reference our employee manual and basically saying that we allow for payment of acrude sick leave at a time other than at retirement um I've only been here a couple months but from what I've seen from the way our our our timekeeping system is set up is that unless there is a Bonafide retirement our system would even calculate a payment of sick time referencing our Personnel manual that at least from what I have was was updated way back in 2006 um we do reference the fact that paid uh paid sick time is only paid at the time of retirement so I I don't know why the office of State com troller noted those uh made those two notes based on the employee manual again based on what I see we do reference the fact that sick time is only paid out in retirement um all of the accumulated leave payouts that I've seen here if we paid sick time out it was due to a retirement um because there are some here and they're not noted in the list if it was retirement or not you know we can go back and and add that column in so that you'd have that differentiation but for those that were just separations we we we did not pay out SI time Mr DAC on that point though and so that is actually one of the reasons why the prior auditor failed to get another contract is because those things were not properly disclosed to us but it was not my understanding that they were saying and or that the state had said that we had in fact made a payment at a time other than retirement but that our uh handbooks allow for that so I I I think what council mgber Michael and now Council mcara and me I guess all five of us probably want to know is have we made those payments at times other than retirement we know that payments were made earlier this year prior to you accepting your role where all of those payments that were um were those were all of those payments in in compliance with the law I I couldn't answer that I can only say that just on what I looked at we didn't pay sick time out for for any other than a retirement now if you ask me was was the calculation for this particular employee back in payroll period one uh in compliance with the law I I couldn't provide an opinion on that um I haven't done the due diligence to review it so I I couldn't I couldn't give you an answer on that colleagues any questions on it councilwoman Celina So to that point so on this list without again trying to keep confidentiality but we had uh two two employees that had had passed and so their calculations are are in here I assume that goes to their estate correct correct there are two employees that did pass um and and payment was made to their Estates yes yeah okay anything else colleagues not regarding that well let's finish this one out and we'll come back Mr Dak I sent you an email so we can discuss offline sure anything else colleagues not right now I have time to think about it please continue Mr detc or was that it I I think that's it um you know I think I've I've dressed the the ordinance and and the reasoning behind it thank you Council what was the year of the law because I know up until a certain year employees were grandfathered in where the the retirements the payouts were capped with the sick time what was that uh so it was 2007 um law and the 2010 law I believe that the 2007 law addressed certain positions such as like CFOs and then 2010 attempted to address everyone else um but we are we were Bound by the collective bargaining agreements that were in place at that time um so there is a sort of window there where that application wouldn't be at the effective date of the 2010 law if you had a you had a collective bargaining agreement in place I'm not a labor attorney so I'm not going to try to pretend to speak to the Nuance of it but generally speaking if you had a contract in place at that time you waited till the the contract expired and then a new contract went into place and that became your effective date so to that point maybe I guess for uh our purposes maybe a column could be added of their start date so we know if they were way before that timeline because that when you look at some of these payouts their start dates because I I know the employees you know they're 40 years ago so they were grandfather Yeah the majority I would think are all pre you know maybe there's a couple that are not pr20 but the majority of them are are going to be but I I will put in uh the higher date along with uh the type of severance uh separation whether it was retirement or you know termination or you they resigned yeah that would be helpful thank you so M Mr D have to PE it back up of that um in the report did the com controller State limits for the payouts I thought the limits were 15,000 after a date contract dat so that is finding three um say that again I didn't hear that's finding three from the comproller okay that the terms of West orang uh terms of West oranges Union contracts are not in compliance with the 2010 law with regard to payment of recruit sick leave because they allow for payments at a time other than at retirement and do not cap the payment at 15,000 for employees hired after May 21st 2010 in four of its contracts I I'm reading directly from the the com trollers um so I will put the higher date in um for for all these these employees and what is the date of that correspondence from the control July 7 2022 like to know the uh payments that trigger that third um whatever that is from the state um where it says that we've not capped the payment at 15,000 I'd like to know which payments trigger the state to site us that way now you may not be able to do it now that's fine um but you know I would like to know what payments triggered that I I don't know if it was a particular payment or if it was just a review of the contract and the the Personnel manual um it it it sounds to me more like they were reviewing the language um but I'll confirm I I got I gotta read it's been a while since I've read through this particular one thank you for the next meeting because again I'm gonna ask that we table this so that way we can read through um can you reach out to the com controller make sure that these payments are lawful because I don't feel comfortable voting on something that can be deemed unlawful I don't considering we all took Oaths to uphold the US and New Jersey constitutions sure I don't I don't know if the com controller is really there to be sort of like a judge of of our Municipal practices I I know that they sort of have a mission to go out there but I have never heard of anyone reaching out to them for an opinion um I he may want to give an opinion I think especially after this last report I think it's important I I will I am not going to commit to doing that I will have a discussion with the administration about it um because you know obviously reaching out to the com controller shines a very strong light on a community so in the effort to be fully transparent with this governing body I will consult the administration on on whether they want to do that or not right just know that if they don't do it that I might not be able to to vote on this because again after our last report it's really important that we follow the law and if they don't want to then that's a little bit of honestly I I understand that I understand that because I've reached out to them too before for various reasons reasons to investigator pass CFO so I'll leave it at that anything else colleagues I had a question not not Rel to this I have a question on this so if we don't pass this what what is the alternative if we if this gets denied so what does that leave us budget wise and I don't want to I'm not I don't want to say it in like a a threatening way of like you better do this or else but the reality of it is is if we don't take this action what will happen next year is that the state of New Jersey will say you have an overex exendin your trust fund because to also to to to back up a bit I should have mentioned this before we make all these payments out of out of our general trust so the municipalities are allowed to have a line accumulated sick and vacation you know but it also includes things like compensatory time and all that so that you know you can put money aside in the trust so that it carries forward until you need to use it um so we make all of our payments out of the trust and and this is going back the last few years and then the emergency sort of funds the trust then so right now we have a negative balance in in the trust where are the accounts out there we have a debit balance in the trust for this particular line item so I would have to raise that money as a deferred charge over expenditure of a a Trust balance and that entire amount would hit us in the 2025 budget so you'd have a $1.8 million deferred charge essentially um rather than the 360,000 that by spreading it out by doing the special emergency you know that that would be the impact next year 360 instead of the full 1.8 so if we want to correct that moving forward again you said this has been a practice that's been here for ever I guess um so if the council wanted to correct that movement forward you would have to so so e that that that's a that's a good question and it's a it's a difficult thing to implement because we still have uh liabilities to pay out our current employees now we can do things like when we when we uh negotiate contracts you know we can look to limit those payouts in in in the contracts you know that that could be a bargaining item what we can do for funding those those liabilities because if we say we have an $1 million future liability you we can put money in the budget to fund that accumulated sick vacation you know but again there's a budgetary impact to that by putting $500,000 in there you know that's $500,000 of Appropriations maybe we can't use somewhere else um or that we don't want to use somewhere else because there's a tax impact by putting $500,000 in there um so we can do things like that but it's it's going to cost the taxpayer last question according to the the contracts now employees contracts they either get paid in one lump sum or it's up to them if we break it up is that correct right so when we have particularly larger payouts we can sort of I don't want to say entice it's it's it's a wrong word to use but the employee can save on on the the taxes by spreading that payment out over two years um so budgetarily it helps us cash flow wise it helps us um but ultimately you know we're paying out the full amount like the first three items that you have on the list there those are split payments those were retirements from 2023 and they took half in 23 and half in 24 well Mr DC is there some guidance on the number of years that the employee can take uh the payments over yeah because some of these are from 2020 in 2020 I could be wrong but I read it earlier today I did it quickly I got it this afternoon I thought I saw a couple of those in there for 2020 I I I believe there's only some splits from 2023 um the most I've seen in my career was when I first started in Orange and we did three years um I've never seen more than that uh because people want their money uh and they typically once they've severed their relationship with the municipality they want to get everything they can and then go um so I've never seen more than three years is it is there guidance though about the number of years there isn't no there's thing that I've ever seen the state's never put out an lfn um you know recommending you know multi-year payouts for the employees uh it's just usually something that that town municipalities can negotiate for budgetary purposes for cash flow purposes and they sell the sort of like you you won't get hit with all the taxes all at once right I have a question sure were you gonna speak IC I acknowledge you counc I counc M okay uh Mr Dak doesn't state law supersede contractual agreements and then that's one question I have for you and then another question is how much do you recommend we budget next year for this so we don't have to do emergency Appropriations again what's the plan forward so you don't know point point number one I you know I'm I want to comment on it I'm not a lawyer but I will say that when it comes to things like sick payouts and all that yes the the the state law does supered and and we're seeing that as as a CFO group with the sick leave incentive programs um you know those were programs where people would sell 10 days and get paid out for five it was it was a pretty common program um and it was the intention was to pay it out now so that when the employee was retiring at the highest rate that they made as an employee they weren't getting paid out for 200 sick days so you were whittling down the sick days and paying them at you know their their rates as they progressed um state of New Jersey says no more of that and they said we don't care if you have it in a contract don't do it anymore it's against state law so you know we're seeing now unions grieving it and we'll see what happens with that process but uh a lot of municipalities have just said I can't do this anymore I don't care that it's in it's in a contract so yes like those things can supersede the contracts they can be challenged by the the groups really anything can um so I know was kind of like a a wishy-washy answer for you but you know I'm not an attorney I will say yes it it happens state law supersedes the contracts and and then they can fight it out uh so your second your second point you know how much should we budget I don't want to throw out a a number right now because you know we have to see what 2025 is is going to look like um and we're going to have to look at what's the the taxpayer impact just based on all the things that you know we have every year like Debt Service and the pension costs and you know what's what are salaries going to look like for next year you know we're in the middle of negotiations but you know we can sort of gauge where we think it's going to go so we're going to have to you know put it in an increase for however many percent and and then we can look at how do we fund sort of things like this like our our future liabilities um so it could be a moving Target uh but I think we have to have a plan long term of you know what do we want to maintain as a as a a funded amount of our future liabilities in 2022 I think we only had $300,000 funded of you know the 11 million a pretty small percentage so you know as a as a group we sort of have to come to a consensus on you know how much do we want to put in there to fund these in the future so that we're not doing the special emergencies I understand the special emergency strategy though I do and that they were spreading it out over the five years rather than taking those those big hits in the budget so um you know it's not it wasn't the worst strategy in the world I guess you have to pay it out so they felt like this was the best way to spread it out oh question and the other thing the the piggy back on as to anticipating we have employees that have may reach their their service time within what their pension requires for them to to retire but some employees are in tier one and they have especially police and fire where they have a an incentive to stay longer um it's percentage incentive so they may decide that they're going to go in 30 years we don't know some employees intend to leave when they when they want to leave but sometimes they yeah I'm going next year but then they don't and we don't we can't we don't force them the only the only police and fire are the only two that have a mandatory retirement age and that's age 65 so all the rest of the employees do not have a mandatories we don't know some retire right at 25 years as you can see some of these employees we had for 40 some odd years so we don't know when they're leaving one second Council I'm gonna call call on you next um and then you councilwoman calino but um Mr moraldo to to your point um instead of waiting till the end of the year when we know and I this this has been the we've had this conversation now four times not necessarily by you but the council has had this conversation four times and the reason for waiting until the end of the year has been given uh consistently it's that we don't know who's going to retire we wait until everybody's going to retire and then we you know we uh you know pay for those funds whatever they may end up being um if we were to overestimate then we would be able to replenish the trust fund and not have to borrow as much the the following year or maybe have to borrow anything the following year and if we underestimate it's going to have to come out of um you know the capital fund I mean the operating fund but it's coming out of there anyway or well I mean at least the way I understand it from your uh explanation Mr detc um you know we're making these payments anyway so I I think what the council is trying to say is that uh and I think they've said it well I'm just going to say it differently let's get ahead of these things and I know you're new this is not to put it on you this was not your doing uh but let's get ahead of these things um so that we're not getting to the end of the year and and trying to figure out and and folks don't trust and don't understand and then you've got to go quickly and you know no one wants to go out into the bond market in December and and it looks like if if this gets approved you will be uh you know that's when you're you're going to have Mis pricing uh so you know if we can get out in front of it and understand it as a part a part of our budgeting process I think it helps the council and I think it helps the community uh councilwoman Williams you wanted to comment yeah I did because I remember when we were going through the budgeting process and we were looking at our police and fire and we had so many people that was close to retirement age um and so I know that we can't really gauge that but I was very concerned at that point um looking at our inventory and the number of years especially from the fire department we had several firemen who were very very close to 25 years um so it's it's very concerning because if they all retire at the same time not only do we have the loss of personnel but again we have this payment so we we really should figure something out the one I'm sorry Council if I if I could just say one more thing um because I'd be remiss if I didn't uh there is a a Debt Service cost to obviously going out and and borrowing a note uh and that is whatever the interest is on the note and the cost of of assembling the professionals to go ahead and and and get that note so that is part of the the cost of this um so you know when I say A $360,000 impact you know I'm leaving that out the reality of it is is that you know we will have Debt Service interest on that note and we would have spent some money out of our our Capital soft cost to go ahead and get that note and I I apologize for um jumping ahead of you councilwoman councilwoman SC I just want to say it's unconscionable that we're not budgeting for this I mean how are we supposed to approve new hires and determine how many people we should be hiring and how we're going to to organize our departments if we have no handle on what the costs are going to be moving forward over at 10 15 20 I mean there's no strategic planning that goes on here we and we need to we I would like to even see us looking at our budget every month in our council meeting I would have liked to seen the supplemental debt statement for this I want to know how much this 18 you know $1.8 million is going to affect the bottom line I I can't see how we could not do this um so I I think we said if we would have budgeted for this in this year's budget that would have been a $1.8 million uh hit to to the 2024 budget um which I don't know if anybody would want to an increase that big um as far as like projecting forward um you know I it's a good plan it's a it's a good planning Prospect I don't know how it would impact the current year budgets but I think it is a good idea to see you know what has someone cost over the course of a five 10 15 20 year period because we do have steps in place so a lot of our employees go into a step system so we know that there are sort of annual movements and we can project out those Cola increases you know two 3% over the course and then really see where someone lands um you know the with newer employees these Legacy costs have gone down dramatically you know they're going to be down by that 12,000 or $15,000 um sick leave payments you know new employees canac crew vacation past one year so we're not going to have you know bigger um vacation payouts and and I think also what drove a lot of this is that uh during the covid-19 pandemic there was a lot of time that wasn't able to you know be taken and it was converted into what they call the limited time due days so that probably was a lot of vacation time that was converted into that um so as those get paid out obviously I hope we don't have another pandemic where this happens again um you know we won't have those those liabilities but I agree with you in that you know when you hire someone you can't think of just one year I mean obviously we budget for one year but we do have to think about those implications for you know the course of their career because you know hopefully they are going to spend 2025 30 years with us and we also have a lot of discussions on whether we need to use consultants for things and you know that all should be looked at very strategically as a whole and that's something we've neglected to do and I'd like to see us do that moving forward I I agree 100% I do anything else on this issue did you have something else n on this I just want to note um Mr smdo I do want to thank you for your commentary regarding the the catalytic converters we do know that they do cause fir so um having an educational campaign around parking on piles of leaves is helpful but also providing bags or letting uh residents know where they can acquire those bags is helpful allows us to talk about it all one time there are bags um available here at Town Hall um the administration office I I forget there's a charge from it's nominal I think 50 cents a bag something like that and I believe they're also at a DPW engineering garage that could pick them up there as well um at a nominal rate and obviously uh U places like Home Depot and Lowe's and all those also have those kind of bags we we encourage uh and I don't believe that the town will pick up bag leaves and and plastic bags um so we encourage everybody to use the paper bags because that helps with the Recycling and Disposal of it so and we can I can ask the uh I can ask the uh public information officer if he could put up a something about the bag if we don't have it and talk about the beles we can talk to the fire department about that well can I interject before we because that's that's the point that I wanted to make thank you um so I had spoken to our director of DPW about the bags because that was one of the biggest complaints um or a big complaint going around was the leaves and the leaves on the street and how they take up parking and how parking is already challenging in different areas throughout town so I actually called and I asked him why don't we bag leaves in West Orange and immediately and and if we could even go to that process and immediately it was um not receive favorably um just bagging the leaves um it would cause problems for DPW because then they don't have a mechanism to pick up the bags the bags of leaves are heavy especially when they get wet um so before we start communicating to the public about the use of bags and leaves we might just want to make sure um our DPW can handle that I will speak to the director but I'm I'm talking in this particular circumstances where everything's dry get these things off the street it's probably more I'm talking from like the police chief and I differ on speed tables and speed humps he loves them because it's enforcement I hate them because it slows my fire trucks or not mine anymore fire trucks and ambulances so we have a difference of opinions you know and and I and they both have value the the speed humps have value same thing here paper bags in this particular situation are prudent you know we're taking things off the street and get rid of them now um they're not heavy they're not wet and but I also agree with what the the director is saying that when they do get wet wet and heavy they get compacted they do come out in the street they flatten out and they do become an obstacle and and I know they have a schedule I know they're out there all the time they started said they started on November 1st they were out there working on Saturday I think I believe they were working yesterday they pretty much work almost um around the with this yeah it's and and I think in this particular because of the fire situation it's more emerg for us to pick it up but I think also because it's dry our season is going to be a lot shorter because there's a lot of leaves on the ground right now a lot of is yeah I think the fire hazard takes precedent uh over the inconvenience to DPW not that we want to inconvenience you but we certainly don't want to have you know I'll have a conversation with them tomorrow and we discuss I think it was more about just the Manpower and the possibility of injury more so than anything else but I do think it's something that we need to look towards um as a town even if it meant us having to buy different equipment and fund that so that we could do our Leaf um collection differently I just it's just too too inconvenient for us to have loose leaves all over town I think we should revisit that all right I still had a couple items um and I'll come to you Council testing um is that on the fire on the Le yes okay please not exactly leaves but the recycling center years ago we did have the compost catch on fire yes we did yes so what remedies do they have are they wetting down or C right now the U uh Mr def is overseeing that and and they're they're moving piles around he is working on it he has had conversations with them they're they're looking to reduce everything so that we can reduce the fire because the big thing with the compost that it's the piles is it is decomposing and it's causing a friction inside which could cause a fire so they're they're moving the bailes the piles around and they're and they're working diligently to make sure that these things don't catch on fire because we understand how um volatile that can be and know and and the company is very aware of it because of the fire we had I think it was in 200 16 or something like that it was a it was Easter was on Easter it yes it was on Easter Sunday um mayor paresi was in at the time so because I got a phone call from him so um but yeah we and and it was it was it was a difficult stubborn fire um and uh so we're we're we're cognizant of it Mr Deo is on it right now working on it and he's he's provided US Reports on it very good thank you all right so uh you know in addition to an educational campaign believes it would be helpful uh if and when we pass a gender neutral bathroom ordinance that we do an educational campaign around that too um we say that hate has no home here we're a stigma-free town that's an opportunity or natural opportunity I think uh to try and um increase tolerance understanding awareness kindness toward a marginalized Community uh and show that the township is serious and sincere about advocating for their interest well Mr uh Steph Johnson's not here right now and um I I know in the meetings that he has had with the township he's met with our health director um he has met met with the mayor this and our staff and administration to discuss um these these um um what he calls challenges or inequities um and we're working on that and we have changed things on our our health page for that and with his input so we we are actually working with him at this with Stephen at this point to to make these changes so um no I get it I just think that as we do it let's look for an opportunity to elevate the work that's been done to the community so that we you know continue to strengthen these and I believe I believe that is their goal to help that I think that I think that's their goal to do that to make that promotion and if not we will make sure that you know that happens but they already changed the website yeah perfect we've done a lot of that already with with the input from stepen thank you uh and then the final thing I wanted to say was with regard to the townwide solar project I'm dis appointed to hear that the Board of Ed um isn't interested in partnering with us anymore they were very enthusiastic about it when last we met or at least when I was in the meeting um I will tell you that it is one one of the things I said and and I think I think you were in the meeting but maybe not um was the mayor needed to put out an RFP uh for that for the solar project um and that was when the resistance came at least as as far as I could tell um I don't know what the council will do uh if it is presented at that time but the mayor has had ample opportunity to put out an RFP it appears that she's having conversations with solar developers uh that's all well and good but to award that kind of a project to someone will require the township Council if she's not including the council or trying to to get us to a point like she did with the Downtown Development I would encourage the council to vote no if it happens before December 31st I will vote no um we've got to make sure that we approach these processes properly the Main Street development wasn't done properly this one if it's done the same way should meet a different fate um even if it is good for the town because enough is enough uh you know we don't have to create tough votes so let's do the work that's required so that it isn't a tough vote and that would be my encouragement to the administration I'll bring your message back thank you I have a question um you had a comment and then councilman scar my comment just going back to my school board days when I was there and we try to bring in solar panels and again there's a new buildings and grounds uh Team there um so maybe the reason why I did come back they they're they don't they're not going to move forward is because of the way their buildings are because we did that study years ago and um it was challenging to get done then so I don't don't see any difference in their facilities from then and now uh with their roof lines and what not I think Liberty Middle School was the only real place they could have put put something um and the high school but it was taken away parking spots so again I I mean I I don't I could see the school board uh wanting to do it and then their facilities people coming back to to say they couldn't do it because that was my uh experience years ago with the school district all right I mean we don't know what the reason is and we do know that developers are willing to um do the work on the roofs should they need it uh to be able to support the solar so you know the point I'm making is exactly that we don't know why uh we had an understanding and Way Forward that got ditched at some point along the way with no communication to the township Council and no further updates so that is the process that needs to stop Council yeah I just want to say I want to know the reason I want to know the reason why not interested in doing this with us just like you know the shared services with the garbage has been an issue for years I want to know what the obstacles are and and I I want an RF I won't vote for this without an RFP going out I mean I've had it with this stuff I will not vote for it I wanted to participate on that committee and I would like to be involved in it well I don't make that choice all right um so I think we have uh gotten through all of of the questions and answers on public comment I want to thank you guys for being patient as we uh deliberated learned some new information um it's time now to get back to our consent agenda Madam clerk thank you um approval of minutes of previous meeting public meeting October 29th 2024 consent report of Township officers none reading of petitions and Communications and bids none Bill list are there any questions on the bills no okay is that a consent consent thank you resolutions are any resolutions being pulled this evening yes 35 yep I have really questions on that one do you want it pulled question does anyone else want it pulled uh I have questions also so yeah yes let's okay we'll pull it it pulled okay okay anything else anyone else I I want to pull uh 317 I just have a I'm pulling it for questions I'm not necessarily going to vote against it okay anything else being pulled colleagues I'm good that's it Madam clerk okay is there a motion to approve the consent so mve we need to um move State the motion because for the record you have to State the motion she did no she said so moov said sove the clerk stated the motion I said is there a motion to approve consent agenda and she said okay so move okay thank you I will say it no worries and then councilwoman Cino seconded it um all in favor I any opposed the motion is carried all right 3:15 Council woman gabber Michael I'll just read the title resolution authorizing a Professional Services contract CME for professional civil engineering and land surveying Services associated with the aspac and Crystal Lake Improvement in an amount not to exceed $160,000 is our Township engineer on director carvalo she's not available tonight she has been not feeling well so she's not available well I hope she gets well soon I guess my question is why did we go with CM when I'm looking at the what was bid Matrix seems to be cheaper they Base Service was 134,000 and CMEs is 160,000 but then when you look at total Services Matrix New World engineering comes out to be 163,50 and cme's total is 220,000 so that's you know close to $660,000 more so I just I wanted to know why are we going with CME it's not the lowest can we table this until the next meeting off second so so let's just say before we do that just a second so this is an issue um because we have been told consistently that we have to go with the lowest so when I saw the cover letter and I saw the two asterisks um she has a I don't know if you sp this yeah it has I'm going to read it I'm going to read it new world engineering although it says New World engineering I'm sorry Matrix New World engineering although the least expensive is missing land surveying services in their proposal that were outlined in the request for proposal so help me understand are we help me understand so the survey isn't in there right the the land surve in Services is not included help me understand why they would even be considered at all if the if the bid was incomplete which is what we were told with regard to the Garbage Contract we were told we could not even consider we didn't even get the data we had to ask for the data on a on a proposal that was returned to us that was incomplete so that's that's the first thing first thing second thing is how much does land surveying cost what is the approximate or or estimate or do we have one expensive surveys for especially on that okay so what is it is it 50,000 is it 100,000 is it 25,000 there was something I read in here about the storm water runoff too so um you know so that is more than just a meets and Bounds surveys that's more detailed and so so shouldn't we have an estimate of what that cost or an understanding so that we could have if we're going to consider them because it seems like they were considered which is different than what happened in the Garbage Contract yeah a very good point council president and if they are being considered then we should know what that cost is thank you well think you I remember the the the contract with the garbage the the bid we didn't take was still on the list not in the four options we could choose from no no but they were listed they were listed on that proposal but but they were out not not so my recollection is we were presented with four four options from which to choose correct and they were not one of those four now we knew about the information and it was raised in the council meeting because some information was provided to us prior to the information that was presented for us to vote on in this case it's all being presented at the same time council president yes sir um in in the attachment that was provided um by our Township engineer on page 67 of that PDF uh under uh CM uh proposal they do break out the land surveying Services obviously we don't have uh a comparison from from Matrix because they didn't provide one but CME is estimating at 40,000 so CME is estimating that of their 200 20,000 20,000 40,000 of that is for survey from the from the base service bid uh for 160,000 40,000 of that is land surveying 40,000 of the base 160 is survey correct and that that can be found on on page 67 of the PDF I say page 67 but 67 of the the oh yeah you're not looking at a computer this isn't that way it's it's page eight of cme's uh proposal right so it's it's page two actually here uh land surveying Services is that right correct I'm looking at the fee estimate that was on page eight of cme's actual proposal and it's uh it's 40,000 listed for land survey all right so you know I could bring my computer I believe that's fine I just like this just highlights the issue right the issue is that in one case we're told one thing and we because we wanted to CH if we were going to keep with the Garbage Contract we were going to choose the lowest cost operator that kept the service the same that would have saved saved us a million dollars a year we were told we could not consider them because their bid was incomplete and then we have this presentation which maybe I'm reading it wrong maybe we're not considering Matrix new world but their bid is in complete they are included in all of the information that is presented to us so that we can make an informed vote and a part of that is unknowable to us at this moment when we're asked to take the vote that to me highlights the problems with doing business we can't do it one way because it meets a need here and a different way because it meets a different need here and then when there's no trust now we don't know so so I have a question If it's 40 ,000 if that's the estimate for land surveying if if if you just assume even a 20% deviance even if it was more than that 25% you're looking at $50,000 $50,000 for those Services still brings them below the 220 that CME is charging councilwoman so the only thing that I want to bring to our attention is with the garbage proposal it had to go before the state for approval before it could even come back to us and be put out to bid and then once it came we we did we were aware that there was one bidder that did not bid on all of the yeah it was on our list and it was on our list no okay so we're not debating the Garbage Contract but what I'm saying is we were told we could not consider that that option at all right because we had because the bid specs weren't met because the bid was incomplete is the actual term here we have Matrix New World providing a bid they're listed amongst the responses this isn't a bid Council this is a request for proposal all right well they're responding to an RFP which I'm using learn the terminology Loosely they've responded they have what would be an incomplete response because a portion of the services needed are not bid on I don't know if they provide those services or not but the point I'm making is when we try to cons consider an incomplete bid a bidder who responded with an incomplete response let me tighten up the language a little bit we were told we couldn't and so and that was not one of the four options that we were provided now it wasn't part of the presentation that was up on this screen right here multiple times it wasn't part of Mr def's testimony how did we know about it we were giving the information prior to us getting in here was on the list okay all right well we weren't able to consider them they were not an option no no but there is a difference between an RFP and an RFQ when we do an RFP this was an RFP that's an RFP garbage was an RP but this is on the list too they're showing us that it's here all right so and it wasn't selected so we were told we could not once we decided that we did not want to change change the level of service and and this is I I don't understand why this is under debate once we decided that we did not as a council the majority of the council did not want to change the level of service we were providing with regard to garbage we could not choose an option from a vendor who responded to that RFP with a cost for that exact same option that we chose show that was a million dollar less than the one that was awarded that option with two previously undisclosed conflicts of interest from our town attorney like all of that stuff smells funny I that just doesn't look right and it's maybe it's me no told we'd be sued remember we were that's what we were told so that's not going to affect this there was another reason there was a there's there's always one but it just never seems to match up right like we catch up because we we again I I I get where you're going there but there was a whole explanation can we just talk about this one are we allowed to choose can we because I know we we're voting on a resolution that is an up or down vote on CME so if we vote down CME is the mayor going to come back with another option from this list or would it excuse me why don't we just table this i' like table I'll I want to understand what's going on with the process this this is if if it was to be voted down would the mayor then have to come back with another vendor from this list complicated I would leave that to the director to the side because I don't know if the mayor had anything this is the director put this forward so if if you want to vote it down you vote it down I don't know if we're gonna get the same server I don't know I as the council woman suggestion if we table this I can speak with her tomorrow I can provide you the answers we can give you more detailed answer and we could place this on for the next agenda and then we can make that decision get a lawyer lawyer to table it that that's fine we should still know the answer to that question we should have legal if we are going to vote on it in two weeks we should still know the answer to that question reason I will I will get those an I will I will talk to her speak to her and we'll get those answers for you than try to get her today right so I make a motion to table this resolution yeah we second we all second okay okay councilwoman celino the table councilwoman G Michael councilwoman Scarpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Redford yes the motion carries all right 317 Madam clerk yes resolution authorizing interlocal agreement with burrow of rosand for animal control services 2025 is director fanino uh available I will find out so I just want to know what the number of calls for this service have been to our Animal Control Officers I I just want to say that I hope when we have these kind of questions moving forward that we contact our directors it's 9 o' 9:30 they' worked eight hours all day and then Madam clerk you I mean Madam uh councilwoman you can do it the way you choose I'm just making a stat I know I am too do we have director fono okay I just sent him a text see if he's available to get on the meeting okay so I was fine with this because I remember voting on it but the public asked a question and we should be responsive to the people that vote for us I'm not arguing that point I just said we could have asked information Chim it's not about whether they voted for us or not because we represent everyone no it's yeah well they voted or not they're here and we should just answer their questions as best as we can and I I believe the council president was correct in the in the question I I don't have the answer so I'm I'm not gonna make it for the statement but the the amount of service that we provide to rosand is is nominal in the sense of what we do so I don't know how they determine the 16,000 but we do provide that service for them um and I believe in the past if if we dealt with a dozen animals one a month that's probably lot I have a suggestion but I want to see if I can get him yeah if not why don't we just vote for it why don't we vote for it if we can't get him and you get the answer to the question for the public for next time for next I'm not concerned about I want to I I I recall when we had this the first time and I don't I can't recall when it was it was I think it was two years ago that same question was asked it's a legitimate question we asked it then I was satisfied with the answer then uh you know the public whoever asked that question tonight was not satisfied or maybe they weren't a part of the process back then so would love to answer it for them but for me I'm fine uh voting for this I believe he's getting on yeah Mr Fagan when uh Mr feno joins can you bring him over thank you sir the [Music] [Laughter] Jeopardy not tonight unfortunately everybody sick well the CO's going around oh no stop no the kids all I know my son was sick on Wednesday uh I'm am fine if Mr fono is having a difficult time uh moving this for a vote um do you see him Mr fanino okay I offer a motion that we approve 317 okay okay yes thank you uh councilwoman celino yes councilwoman gber Michael yes councilwoman scor councilwoman Williams yes council president ruford yes motion carries I just would like us to get the answer for the public for the next time ordinances on second and final reading 2879 d24 and ordinance amending chapter 3 section 17.1 of the revised General ordinances of the township of West Orange ordinances and resolutions preparation is there a motion to introduce on second and final I move to introduce on second and Final second okay councilwoman celino yes councilwoman de Michael Yes councilwoman scar yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Rutherford yes we public comment now yes public hearing so we are now uh going to open the microphone for public comment in uh Chambers only if you're joining us by Zoom you will not zoom you will not be able to participate in public comment uh it's now open Madam you have the microphone thank you so Michaela Bennett Old Indian Road it says this is being presented to you by legal do you have legal at the meeting I didn't know that you could have a meeting without your legal council present can or available I I don't know I thought by contract they have to be at every meeting but how do you move and ordinance on second and final reading when you don't have the moving Authority present TR that as he is available by phone if we need so all right thank you Mr um sir again my name is Richard fredman I don't claim to know everything about accounting but I do want to make a comment and perhaps you can help me with this uh you made the comment earlier that I believe that we were not in Conformity with gap because we had an so I'm sorry Mr Freeman so this public comment is restricted to this particular ordinance oh I'm sorry no that's fine said made the comment that I yeah want to say something but will there be another opportunity not not tonight but uh I do have your phone number and I am happy to hear and pass on pass along your concerns or you could come to our next meeting or email us you can email us you know I'm happy to email it's so much better to say it verbally so Mr Rutherford if you do call me I can express much better absolutely thank you very much council president uh director fanino is on the call if you that's okay he director fanino if you can hear us uh they no longer need to speak with you this evening yeah it's totally we want the answer for the person no let's get he can send us an answer and email he's fine okay yeah we've already voted on it now we're not going to go back and unvote or or resend it the information gonna the information moving on um 2879 anyone else so Madam clerk did you read the title uh did we just did it no I didn't an ordinance amending chapter 3 section 17.1 did I read this yeah I'm sorry I wasn't sure if you yeah we just need to close our hearing so um for those public comment is now closing no one else wants to comment for those that are are not aware this is is a request that was made of councilwoman Scarpa uh regarding how we receive um ordinances that have changes to them uh that's the only change that's on here um and so I although legal is not here um I'm comfortable with the change that has been uh offered and as it is caption here so can I say something yeah okay so I wrote an email to everyone regarding ing this um there was a the ordinance this week the storm water ordinance um that was 33 Pages The copier in my office is single page so I can't double side it um and if I make 10 copies which is what is required in the meeting that's 330 Pages um plus the uh there's four toner cartridges at $166 a piece um when they need to be replaced and you know I don't mind doing it but to me I feel like that is such a waste of paper um and my suggestion was that I would send I would send home black and white copy double-sided like you always get them and then send on Friday morning the Redlin copy over via email so that you guys can compare and highlight what you need to see um I mean it's up to you but it's time consuming it's you know it's a waste of paper everyone talks about the trees um and there's a cost to the toner which is expensive so it's just something to be considered by all of you do you have it in your budget well well this doesn't this change does not require you to at least yes it does says ordinance which revise or amend provisions of the West Orange municipal code shall be drafted in a manner showing the revisions or amendments being made to the code right so it does not require you to print it but we do want to see it her purpose need her point was councilwoman Scarpa and I apologize that's okay councilwoman scarpa's point was when we have ordinances that have changes she wants those changes highlighted I think there were a couple that that's couple that weren't they couple that weren't yeah I want them clearly highlighted it's very difficult to read all so this requires that and what you just suggested would be consistent with this I think all right would that be satisfactory to you councilwoman to receive it via email no I want it I want a hard copy well you can print her hard you could print and she did she printed my hard copy do they want a copy too I don't mean to be a yeah I need to highlight and make notes on on it and compare it to other versions if you really are looking at this critically you can't do it on the computer I do I just take I just my I'm you know the eyes are going all right so so you can work that out going forward we get anyway you give it to us anyway in paper yeah but it's black and white you can't see the changes yeah I want I want the redline version of everything they don't want yeah you don't have to make five if they don't need it some people are really proficient the yeah some people if we need to we'll we'll we'll see what we can do to accommodate that all right but what whatever that accommodation is would not violate this ordinance now it might not be satisfactory to individual council members but that's and then the legal department has to be reminded that they need to provide it to me because I don't write them they you know so I'll I'll make sure I remind them as well I offer a motion that we approve uh 2879 okay yes okay councilwoman castelino yes councilwoman gber Michael councilwoman Scarpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Rutherford yes the motion carries all right ordinances on first reading 2880 d24 an ordinance amending and supplementing chapter 7 traffic subsection 7- 7.3 temporary parking prohibition for snow plowing and removal 7-14 .1 C night parking restricted and 7-12 parking prohibited for street cleaning and maintenance of the revised General ordinances of West Orange I make a motion to introduce on first second thank you okay councilwoman castelino yes councilwoman de Michel councilwoman Scarpa councilwoman Williams yes council president Rutherford yes and just so they were're clear this is only for snow plowing um or other street cleaning and maintenance correct this is not this is only for those moments no also night night parking this is for Oxford Street I think it's Oxford Oxford think it's for Oxford let's see I'm sorry which one is that 288 Oxford terce West yeah St all yeah this is just for Oxford terce so this is because what's happening is Oxford ter such a small little street that we're trying to get it that we can get on either side this was a request from many of the residents to have this G through so um from many of the residents many of yeah director cabalo this is this is a response to what the residents wanted this all right so the way I read this so the first one is it's it's a temporary parking prohibition for snow plowing and snow removal right right and I I totally understand that second section uh night parking restricted what does that mean cuz we don't you can't park on the street at night now on some of them you can streets we can Street we can depends it was two to six town wide no it's not no it depends on the area in my street you could park outside all right and then and then the final one I understand okay so so it is no more so two to six it will be no parking on Oxford Terrace cor right and do they have I believe it's two to five not six all right whatever you know it's a three it's a three-hour window that's just to make sure that nobody parks continuous overnight but will they have other accommodations for parking will they have other accommodations for parking since we're now removing their ability to park on the street I believe these are residential neighborhoods they have uh driveways driveway they have driveways they can park in the driveways so we have one resident that lives on Oxford Terrace that's been into a council meeting and they don't have a garage or a driveway I'm not I'm not aware that I could ask the director on it okay we could have that answer for you if you want to pass this tonight we can have the answer for the next meeting it's up to you yeah it's on first reading so that's fine we just want to make sure that none of the residents are are going to be inconvenience I'll ask you have all of the residents been communicated with I cannot answer that factually I believe so but I can't I will get that answer for you as well so what I would like to know is if there was a complaint that came in was that how was this addressed with the rest of the residents that may not have complained do they know um about these changes Council if you have Council if you have that address for me offline you could let me know I will I'm I'm going have to go and look because I don't know it off the top of my head okay is there any responsibility to let the residents know when we make these changes on this yeah yeah they have to send a letter they send a letter they also have to read the letter yeah they do just want to make sure I will say that our our DP our engineering department sends out when we're doing store uh streets all letters are sent out copies I I believe you've been getting the copies of the letter not the not the actual list or maybe I I don't know that they give every single list but they do copy us that these are the letters that are going out to the residents so you do receive them there's not and they they'll post on the polls right okay good all right anything else that's uh so we introduced 2880 Madam clerk 28 so sorry yeah resolution I'm sorry resolution that's suppos in ordinance oh my goodness um an ordinance of the township of West Orange in the county of Essex state of New Jersey providing for the issuance of special emergency notes and an amount not to exceed $1.8 million to fund contractually required Severance liabilities resulting from the retirement of employees in the township I'm for the to adopt on first read to no to uh table until the next meeting second okay yeah because I would vote no because I didn't get the supplemental debt statement I want to know how this affects our debt do we get a supplemental Deb statement for something like this every time we Bond we should get the supplemental death statement it's a special emergency right so okay that's we still need to know how it affects our budget yeah okay and then you know the questions that I have that I've stated council president did you give a second on that yes was it you on the table right okay let me just take the vote councilwoman celino the table yes yes councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman Scarpa yes councilwoman Williams to table yes council president ruer yes uh Mr detc if we were to have passed that tonight would that Bond have been issued before December 31 um we may have gone out for notes before the end of the year but the more important thing is to have it established as a special emergency so that we can spread the budgetary impact across five budgets rather than all into 2025 so so providing the authorization this year allows you to float the bond next year I mean we can do the note next year but the most important thing is to declare a special emergency so we could spread it out over five years yeah all right so and I understand your distinct distinction there I know a note is a shorter term than a yeah because yeah there's two two pieces to it yeah there's the note for the cash flow which you know we could do this year you know we may not um but then there's the other side of it so that we can spread out the impact from a budgetary perspective over either five years or one year so if we don't do this at all it'll all be raised in 2025 got it thank you very much you're welcome did we want this on the next agenda yes okay thank you uh right yeah yeah I think I made it pretty clear how we going to vote pending answers to my questions so before we move into pining matters uh um new matters Council discussion I did just want to congratulate Dogwood green uh as uh what looks like the first uh cultivation oper cannabis cultivation operation to open in West Orange retail dog with green is retail they retail sorens I thought it was the other one I'm sorry well I can congratulate them anyway number congratulations dog with green are they number number three right number two oh no the other one's Den Valley well congratulations Dogwood green welcome to West Orange we wish you well but they're they haven't even come back to us yet and they're doing construction and stuff yeah but all right uh Council uh pining matters new matters Council discussion uh colleagues anything gab M so the first thing is the forensic audit when I went on the website I noticed it wasn't just the 2023 year that we recommended and I guess talked as a council there were some changes made um I believe I believe all changes were made based on but when I checked on the website is it showed 2021 2022 and 2023 that's not what we agreed on so we had agreed just look at 2023 for now and we mentioned it in the council meeting because we were made recommendations to edit the parameters because there were certain things that weren't necessary I will double check because I I believe that it was said out as requested in the meeting and everything was sent to you for final approval and then we put it up there based on that I will I will discuss with the the qpa tomor so yes so what we were given and just to go back and um so it was edited um and those final edits um were Incorporated what was not included was the conversation we had in Council chamber about this RFP with regard to cost and I it got past me I didn't I didn't notice it um but the uh the RFQ that I have does list all three years and it says and we had agreed in count in that council meeting to just do 2023 based on what we find then we can go back out to 22 if needed then we can go to 21 you know or as far back as we decided to go but for cost purposes to only do 23 I I believe that's correct I I believe that's what we did discuss and if that's not what's on the site I'll I'll take a look at it I know we did have that conversation yes thank you to clarify that right away something else I wanted to discuss was um in reference to miss Bennett's public comments I wanted to make a motion um to resend the resolution that we adopted last January and for it to be onee appointments going forward well I believe that's doesn't under new matters you want to do that for the next meeting correct I need I I see Miss Bennett send something already in I forward it to Mr Tran he's no longer available to get on but he said it he will look for it he will have an answer for you for next meeting so this way if you want to question can he review it if it's about him it's special counsel have to look at it it's it's he's still the Law Department we have to forward it to the Law Department I know but it's a conflict of interest the last time this happened there was special councel if if he reviews it and he find feels that there's a conflict of interest I'm sure he's going to pass it out well we can't just I just can't circumvent that process because he is still the appointed law director so until he's not so so I made a motion all right so before we go through that because I think you're fine I think you're on Good Grounds but you did have a question councel before we yeah because you do have an attorney that you did case I I know but if there was an argument made I would think he would have used that argument for your for the case he's been taking a very narrow approach and he's looking only at that case that's right yeah um yeah but that's part of the case that no it's not it's not part of the case I'm violating New Jersey Constitution by bypassing the legislative process for him to hire his law firm and Bild the amount that he's built so that's that's the lawsuit that's the lawsuit and it's that narrow now it's he also reviewed that we voted him in as the director for four years no that's not part let me let me say something you and this is pending litigation so for us to talk about this openly I don't think is appropriate so that's all very factual it's very black and white she stated that we are violating the Constitution I'd rather that we don't continue to violate even though some of us are uphold and I'm sorry two to uphold time out hey wait a minute wait a minute ladies Council people one moment one moment we're gonna wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait Council woman Council please councilwoman councilwoman listen stop please for stop stop stop stop all right so ridiculous it is what we are not going to do is argue about something we can't make a single difference about in this argument so if we want to discuss it we can discuss it offline after the meeting um but not nothing that we say or do in this proceeding is going to affect that at all um if if oh Mr trink is no longer available yeah I I tried to get a hold of now that was two hours ago we tried to get them and now it's sleeping T so so on on that same general issue we've now had three different township attorneys representing the legal department in our Council meetings in the last two months we have or or actually we had two in the last two months we've had three I don't know when the last time Mr trink was here now if he is still the head of the legal department it is his responsibility to be here if he's not going to be here I I don't know I I don't even know that that was ever question before but the fact that he's now sent two other folks and then on a night where he claims neither one of them could be present he can't be president either and he has no one else to send I I did speak to him about your question before he did say if it is a question under the faul ACT he will review it he will look at it and he'll his he'll have his office provide an answer to you for the next meeting and you know based on the information provided us so Miss Bennett said sent this document in so I forward it to him for review so so we will be in the process to get you an answer for the next meeting which which is understandable and acceptable the problem is he's not here right and a part of that job as head of legal is to make sure that we have legal representation in the town council meeting so if we have a legal question we have our own attorney who is supposed to be responsive to this body as well to answer it that's what the C says yes so Mr Trent needs to bring himself and sit in that chair if he's not going to have somebody else there I recommend he do that uh and not send someone else um especially since they can apparently cancel on a short notice or whatever and he not find a suitable replacement to answer simple questions like this I you know I find that unconscionable to use the councilwoman's word um but that I'll end I'll end that there we're not going to change that uh any further tonight too uh colleagues anything else on new business pending matters oh that's right right that's right can you tell me what the motion is please the motion is to resend the resolution that we adopted last January authorizing department heads to serve for the term of the May the mayor's duration and it's supposed to be onee appointments and I would like a new I would like that rescinded that's one resolution another resolution giving onee appointments you want that rescinded the resolution giving onee appointments for years for four years or the duration of the mayor's term we don't know how long right right so the you're resing the one resolution and we like a new one on okay you want this on for next meeting yes yes a new res solution that you want onee appointments one year appointments for the Department is okay I guess I guess I don't know this is why we need legal maybe they serve as as holdovers until January should be a new yeah the effective date should be for for January really for like for next year for the new incoming Council but for us it should be for the duration of this year they serve and then January should be a new contract from January to December 31st of next year I thought we listened to comments that talked about the one-year contract and we said we would get um more information but the rationale that was presented to us about why directors don't have just one-year contracts um spoke to not having continuity and them worrying about whether or not they were going to have their job on a year-to-year basis we talked about having the appropriate talent and and them not wanting to work for our Township if they're going to be at risk of termination or non-renewal so so shouldn't we find out whether or not our document the fauler ACT is the correct governing document before we resend anything I mean we're making a motion and we don't have legal councel to tell us whether or not it's a valid motion or not and we're doing this based based on what other legal Authority a resident can come and tell us anything thing that doesn't make it fact until we get more information I'm not suggesting that you aren't right I pleas address okay um but we do need to have factual information before we resend anything to make sure we are correct I get I get it if I mean I get it but based on what legal Authority are you finished Council yes I'm asking councilwoman based on what legal Authority would you do this this resent you so do you want to answer no I don't want to answer so I think I think part of what this highlights for us is what happens when you do not trust the township attorney even if he were to give us advice on this because it affects him I don't trust it either I mean and and rightfully so so conflict what I you know look going forward we there people in West Orange are concerned about whole host of things many of which are under our Authority and to the extent that we engage in these political gamesmanship or brinksmanship kind of activities it is going to hurt West Orange residents that is a reality so when the council makes a vote let's just honor the vote if we don't like the vote let's figure out a way to present something new or make some changes but let's honor the vote because once the trust is eroded it takes that much more work to get it back and like we're at a place now where I don't know that that's even possible with this particular Township attorney so should he be able to stay for four years I don't know I read the state statute or I had it read to me I didn't actually read it myself it was read to me didn't seem like it was not in uh compliance with our local code but maybe it is who's the right Arbiter for that it's not shank he's not the right Arbiter now you got to send it to him send it to him he need to send it to someone else we need a second opinion and and you know hopefully we can trust that person but that's the rabbit hole that we've now gone down is a lack of trust Council woman and that's where I do agree with you we needed to go to someone else to make the opinion and because I I'm not I can't vote on this without having the an opinion I would like for us to go into executive session in next meeting to discuss this with a attorney that doesn't have a conflict so it should be special counsel okay I I'll speak we we can put on Executive session for next meeting and I'll speak to U Mr Trent tomorrow an advisor you now have three three items on Executive session is that right well we yeah we we also need no the 160 yeah and then no that's not on no yeah that was table that was table Ted the Union contract the Union contract and what was the third thing and this this is the third thing right so it's the bond the 1.8 Union contracts uh and the new business that the uh Council mg Michael raised with regard to the consistency between our local code in state law on these director appointments okay okay that covered it it'll happen this year on January I really didn't want to well it's true one way or Township has SP y anything else colleag there's a motion in a second so how is that being handled I I withdraw the considering Council woman SC do you withraw thank you thought we could go discuss second session okay I think that's just I I have something still Yes councilman this is different matter sure this is all pending matters new matters okay so just for Mr smdo uh had sent a a email to the chief this morning so we so there was um the situation that I mentioned earlier on on Valley Road there was a pop there was a party or soccer game and the issue was a determination couldn't be made because there wasn't a zoning officer like we don't have a zoning officer on the weekends we only have one zoning official and we have three inspectors no and I know that and I know contractually I don't know if somebody could be on call for when a situation like this occurs I still don't understand I need to talk to Chief but he's away why um the police could handle it and they defer to the zoning officer but if there and this isn't the first time I heard this so is there any way we could someone can be on call so if a situation arises we can send somebody there now again I'm not sure contractually if we're able to do that or not I'll talk to Miss Adam okay because I'm thinking you know that may be a way to solve some of these issues that come up important and you know if somebody's on call they could go over there and make a determination over the weekend so we we've I read those emails as well and we've had this issue with other sports too y um and while we may or may not be able to have a zoning official check on the weekends is it not appropriate to have the uh body camera images from the police that respond to the scene to inform the zoning officer and and serve as a basis or have their reports serve as the basis for whatever infraction is that not appropriate I I don't understand I I don't know that answer I'll have to talk to the chief about that there's policies with bodyw warn camera I don't know if how that can be done I you know that's his expertise so I just you know for the record want to say that there we had one that had like hundreds if not a thousand people at one of those things where and you know and it was the same issue it just wasn't soccer it was a different sport if if we were able to because a lot of those were on uh Thursday night Friday night Saturday as well if if we were able to effectively address that one we should be able to use the same tools and techniques to address this one at least I would hope and I know that the police were involved in that one so uh I'm not trying to create an additional job for the zoning official yeah or additional hours on the weekends but I hope that we have the the tools and the toolbox okay I will talk to her and I will talk to the chief about the B uh body warn camera policies thank you we just have to think outside the box to find someone who has the authority to deal with this situation it is the Zone in official I mean we've talked about it as well but she can't use the body warn camera footage she has to if she's going to write a summons um she has to be the eyewitness all right so let us know what we did with the other one that was on on watch on um just for further reference that was shut down well the cops the police went to that so yeah the zoning official I don't believe did or maybe she did I'm just well she did after the fact yeah all right anything else pending matters new matters Council discussion yeah I have something I have something for new matters please so um as you know we have that for the ABC Board um there is the the one outstanding hearing that you have so I've been advised to tell you that we need need to complete that by the end of this year because with the change of council coming that if we do not complete that ABC hearing that it has to be dismissed and start all over again and then you'll have to everybody who's going to be sitting is have to go through the whole thing all over again because they can't it's not like the planning board is zoning board where they could just uh do an affidavit so we'd have to bring everybody back so um it's been suggested to me that the week of December 2nd there is nothing on the calendar as far as um um Town Council meetings planning board so on and so forth um that I believe I except maybe the planning board maybe the third but the the week of December uh the 4th I mean so December 2nd and 3rd I believe are open that's a Monday Tuesday um planning board yeah it's a Monday Tuesday December 23rd are open um I'm not available Mondays and Tuesdays I'm just I'm just letting you know yeah I'm just I'm I'm I'm passing on the information you this is yours to make a decision on I'm just telling you those days are there and that um if it doesn't get completed then um then this may get tossed out then that start all over again so schedule like for Thursday the 5th and it is believed they probably need two more nights of testimonies of you should schedule at least two nights possibly a third to have in December in December yes there so many social can't see how we can do three maybe one but not three I mean there's so many things on the calendar you're gonna stop I'm just I'm the messenger I'm I'm I'm presenting to the I I can do the fifth or the sixth it requires me to move something on the fifth I have enough time to move it than I can do the fifth and the sixth as well six is a Friday night it doesn't matter I'm willing to commit to a Friday night I can't do that I can't do that i f that's it but not but so the fifth is at least one date seems like can you make the fifth what about the Saturday can we do it on a Saturday is that now I have a downtown event Saturday the 7 all day yeah work all day yeah the nth is night before the council meeting no I can't do any Monday or Tuesday okay I mean if the rest of them can you can go ahead and schedule that time I just won't be there well can we do it on the 2nd December 2nd I can do the second so we can do December 2nd and then we can do again December 5th I can do the second and the fifth I can do the second third what night is so let's do the second and the fifth the fifth or the sixth I can do let's put two calend I have to move the second I have something on the second I gotta see if I can move it so I I I had something on I could move you can do the third I can do the third so we can do the third and the Fifth Third and fifth the third and the fifth is fine you do the third can you do the third what's I yeah Tuesday yeah you have to read in too because you missed the first meeting I do I have the tape yeah you got to do the tape I I did I listened to you did the third and the fifth okay and you're good on the third and the fifth I'll have to be yeah you're good on the fifth only the fifth correct so I'll just have to recuse myself or not vote on whatever no no you could listen to the have listen to the tape well let's see if I can how long it is all right so we're looking at the third and the fifth okaye that to the attorneys and let's see what they say yep yeah because the police have be available too we said December 3rd and 5th correct correct anything else what time 5m watching 5m or people a chance to get get here get some dinner the following week December 3rd 6m and December 5th the following it's not stff on the calendar I have a young child who's on two sports teams so yeah two travel soccer teams can they do the short version and get it in one meeting no what the hearing yeah no both sides got to present witnesses can we say we got another we got another eight hours for you that's so we got the 3D and the 5th starting at 6 and you're GNA send us an email letting us know that's going to be a long week why not do the 5ifth and the 12th we don't have a council meeting that week yeah we do you do on the 10th no on the second I'm talking about no yeah so if we do the fifth and 12th I mean on the third there's no council meeting well you said you needed three days but what about the 12 for the third dat once we get into the if we mess if something comes up and we miss a date like that weekend the week of the 16th you're done yeah all of us have to be Chang every one of us second and maybe the 12th it's third third the I'm sorry the third the fifth and maybe the 12th I tell them they better get it in you can't tell these people you got to get it in when it's a hearing like I don't even understand what you're saying right now we don't even know if the other are going to be available yeah Witnesses he let us offic he'll let us okay get everybody all right so I'm going to give them the December 3rd 5th and and you alternate date of a 12 you need an additional date you're going on 12 you're going on 12 to check 6m 3512 okay it's Thursday right I I have I have something on every Thursday I have a meeting but I'll I'll Smo it all right okay thank you is that it anything else pinning matters new matters no we can then adjourn this meeting and go into ABC is there a motion ijn I'm toj okay hang on um okay all in favor opposed okay the meeting is adjourned and we are opening up as the ABC Board good night everybody thank you West Orange good night