Let's go. Uh, good afternoon, West Orange. Uh, this is Joe Fagen. We're coming live to you from council chambers. We're just a few minutes behind schedule. Uh, this is the September 2nd, 2025 West Orange
Township Council budget workshop. And uh, just a quick reminder, tomorrow schools open and I'd like to remind everyone that school buses will be on the road. So, please drive accordingly. Uh you are welcome to join us here in council chambers. Uh but whether you're
at home or in council chambers, there will be no public comment uh at all. At this time, I'd like to turn the fall over to our council president. Thank you, Mr. Fagan. Uh welcome West Orange to our 13th workshop for the 2025 municipal budget. The draft budget from
the mayor proposed to raise municipal property taxes by 6.2%. We've knocked that increase down to around 1% and we're continuing to look for additional efficiencies and savings. If you want to follow along, please go to the township website, westtor.org,
use the search box in the upper right hand of the page, type in budget, then click on the first result, and you'll see at the top item is the budget version dated July 22nd that we'll be working from today. And in a minute, Mr.
Diniac will take you on a guided tour on the screen. We are not taking public comment. If you want to comment or ask questions, please send an email to councilwwest orange.org, which despite what you may think, also goes to the mayor and several people in
her administration. If you want to send just to the council, send it to one of us and ask for distribution to each of us. If you need email addresses, search for council on the township website. Recordings of the workshops are on the township website. Find them by searching
for video gallery. We're hoping to have someone from the citizens budget advisory board uh up to join us here on the uh deis. Oh, is somebody here? Yeah. Who is that? Oh, good evening, Council President.
I apologize, Miss Bennett. Service. Welcome. Uh just as a reminder, please everyone uh try to focus on speaking into the microphones, especially if and when the air conditioner is on. We get to
skip all the stuff about raising your digital hand because councilwoman Scarpa is has rejoined us on the deis. Welcome, Councilwoman. Good to be back. And last, lastly, I urge urge everyone to consider time efficiency in their
comments and questioning to be sure that what you say is necessary because the faster we carefully go through the budget, the better. Mr. Diniac, we actually have a uh an agenda. I will let you do the open
take it away. But first, Madame Clerk, thank you. This is to inform the general public that this workshop is being held in compliance with section 5 of the Open Public Meetings Act, chapter 231, Public Law 1975. The notice for this workshop
was emailed to the West Orange Chronicle and the Star Ledger on August 25th, 2025. Councilwoman Castelino, present. Councilwoman Ruden, here. Councilwoman Scarpa, present. Council President Koviaak, present. Now, Mr. Diniac,
where shall we go? Thank you, Council President. Um, good to be back in the chambers. Um, so we're going to start off by showing everybody looking uh watching at home how to look at the budget document that
we're going to be using today. So, I'm going to just back up one screen, two screens. Uh, this is the west orange.org website. You're going to go to departments. You're going to go to finance
and on the left side we have our budget uh submen and I'm going to point to two different things here. So the first is that we're going to be working on the municipal budget as of July 22nd 2025. But we also have available on the
website the 2025 citizens budget advisory board preliminary report to the township council. Uh, I'm guessing at some point that'll become a finalized report, but um, you know, you can download this, you can print it out. It's searchable. Um, so I encourage you
at home to, uh, take a look at, um, both documents. There's a lot of great information in the in the CBA's report. Um, we're going to start today. Uh, the first page we're going to go to,
oh, let me pull up my agenda. I'm sorry. Um, so we're going to look at the agenda. So we're starting with the mayor's office salaries and wages. Moving on to litigation expenses, uh, tenantship attorney, township attorney, other expenses, the business admin administrator salaries and wages,
it uh, salaries and wages and other expenses. We're going to request a visit to fire department other expenses um because we had already voted on that. uh utility, other expenses, and then I have a debt service presentation
um that I would like to make. Council President, if you want me to go out of order and do debt service first or just leave it to the end, that's up to you. Um yes, let's leave it to the end if you don't mind. It's uh not a problem. It's a bit of uh bad news and good news and
uh I don't want it to be a downer for everybody, so we'll just leave it towards the end. Okay. Um, and then the proposed agenda for next meeting is obviously if something doesn't get uh tackled tonight, we'll move it to the next meeting, but hopefully we're in the position to finalize the budget
amendment um and and sort of look at the final tax rate numbers. Okay. Um going back to to the budget here present mode. We are going to go to page
15 on the budget document. Um mayor's office. So this is salaries and wages. So we are proposing a salary and wage. Okay. So council president if I may. Um so the mayor has made a recommendation. She was
asked hasn't asked for tonight and she apologized for not being here tonight. She has a a death in the family so she cannot be in attendance. So she sends her um regrets. But um with regards to the person who was in her office as a keyboarding clerk one, she's actually
more than a keyboarding clerk. One, she's a secretary to the mayor, which is an unclassified position in the civil service world. Uh for those who remember, the mayor's office had a uh a stalwart in there for a very long time and she retired back in uh I think it's December 23 and we were able to uh
finally hire somebody last year in an entry level clerk's position. However, this position is actually a confidential position and it's more than just an entry clerk level position um dealing with u legal and other uh u matters that
by the office of the mayor. Not only that, uh this person has taken on more responsibilities not only just as the secretary but also administering the website. So we we are making and the mayor is making the request to promote this person to actually to this position that's equal to some of the
administrative clerks such as the police department, the fire department, the clerk's office, well not clerk's office, sorry, the health department and and others. And this would be in the same realm, same pay, but it would be at a lower step obviously because she's entry
more of a a a new person at the level. Um, and again, this is an unclassified position, but we would like to uh take that for consideration. And the salary that we're looking for will be um step three of the salary guide from 1125
in the amount of 65,264. and that's for your consideration. So what we have on the budget is the keyboarding clerk one position which is not a confidential position. We're trying to make that into the into
something that's confidential for the position of the office itself. We had a hard time trying to find locate somebody last year and the person who came and stepped in. She's done an admirable job for the last year. um she has fulfilled the one-year probationary period successfully and and has done a
fantastic job and um and in in this position would be effective after Janu June of this year. So it would not be for the full year salary. The salary is for 67,000 but it would be less than that B. We'd have to figure that out for now um with Mr. Diniac. Um, but so it
wouldn't be the full amount for $67,000, but it is or they say 60 or 60 Yeah, $65,000. Um, it would be prorated to her anniversary in in June. So, I'm unfamiliar with the use of the
word confidential in this context. Could you tell me what what that means in this? So, confidential employee is one that is bound by whatever is going on in that particular office. They have no they they cannot um uh be able to provide that to the general public if there's something of a matter say a legal matter
or of that nature within the mayor's office or any other office. You like the police the chief of police the the the administrative clerk in there is a confidential employee. There's things in the police department. Same thing with the fire department, the health department. We have to deal with vital statistics. This is somebody that is
trusted, been vetted to handle sensitive material. And we understand that they have the ability to keep that in in that in that vein without being able to provide it outside to other other people. And they and they're basically a person that they could be relied on to handle personal matters or confidential
matters and personnel matters depending on the there's there's one in in the administrative office as well. And this is the the role there. There's they're limited. There's only so many that could be um per department. There isn't one in the mayor's office right now. There's only
one person per department and we're set by that. So, at the most we could have in the township right now would be nine total and I believe we have a total of about eight right now. So, we're and then we're asking for this this request. So, I just uh I want to just make sure
that as we're talking we have the numbers uh that you were suggesting uh but I didn't write them down. Could you just give me the numbers again in terms of the step and the total salary? This employee is currently earning $47,000 a year and the proposal would be
to uh I'm sorry I haven't it is 65 264 65264 which would be prrated to um June. So it' be 6 months I don't have the exact date in June but it was uh sometime in
June. it to be for it could be potentially for July 1st for 6 months. So the differential between the 47 and 65 for the last 6 months of this year. So the employee joined uh a little bit more than a year and a half ago and uh is now at step four of that level.
Uh she is at step three of that level of the of the same step three. Uh I'm sorry. No, she's she's step four. She's at step four of the clerk level. Yes. and we're looking to hire promoter to step three of the admin of would be equivalent to the admin clerk level.
So the the request is for $10,650 for the 2025 question. Yes, please. Yes. So, I just want to step in because I've done some work with the PO um through the PRC and the downtown um with this and again we're going to
not use names with this position and the skill set that uh this person has for this position is is is very good. Very good. I was surprised that she came in at this level,
especially when her predecessor left and all that she does in that office. And so I'm okay with this. I see what gets done and what she the initiative she takes on her own um
to go above and beyond for our residents. And I just recommend for my colleagues, if you don't feel that way, you need to probably speak with the mayor or or talk to, you know, Mr. Smileo could elaborate
a little bit more, but she does a lot. She and and she's not an just answer for a problem. Yeah. which which I'm glad because that that office needs that kind of organizational skills and computer
skills and communication skills. So, I'm I'm satisfied with being able to to fill the mayor's request on this. Is everyone else What is step two
of the new position? No, the proposed new position. You're saying that step step two is 59331. Just so we understand too this and I I meant to say that before. I didn't mean to step on you. Councilwoman is this person is um also she while the the the
position is 35 hour week position 8:30 to 4:30 she rarely works that um she she does work a lot more hours now nights, weekends and whatever whatever is requested of her. She never says no and never complains and no she does not. She she does a she
does a fantastic job and you know we we're here we're here to present that because we support her because she she is doing a fantastic job. Well, I'll I'll speak uh in this very difficult uh economic and fiscal environment that I
don't feel comfortable uh as we are cutting across the board at various budgets on giving such a substantial increase in promotion this year. Uh I I would be more comfortable if if the proposed
promotion and significant increase in uh compensation was presented as part of the overall budget uh next year. I would agree. We can't we really need to get this budget under control this year, but we should definitely think
about it next year and put it in next year's budget. I don't know whether we move to consent or we move to a vote. Sounds like we have a difference uh in agreement. So yeah, I I mean sorry. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
I know council made a was looking at a lower step for maybe this year. Does that satisfy Councilwoman Ruden? I'm really not sure because I'm a little confused about what this confidential um position is because it seems to me
that the confidential position is just allowing more secrets being kept from the council. We don't get answers when we ask specific questions. So I I'm not really sure what is what is confidential confidential only to the within the
administration or does that extend to confidentiality shared with the council? So the confidential is that it's the position of the person. It this person is not permitted to speak to anybody other other than go through the mayor. She's the one who takes in the phone
calls. She takes in does the work for on behalf of the mayor with which is within the mayor's office. So the mayor has to have somebody or or the department head has to have somebody in there that they can trust to get the work done and to be able to present that work at the time. It's it's the the that person themselves
is not hiding releasing or anything else. This is not about whether it's a trust to somebody else. It's just a matter that it's a trust to the mayor between the mayor and the person sitting in the position or whether it be the police chief. It' be the same as if the police chief. You're not going to get information from the police chief secretary just because you call up the
police chief. You know, the police chief is the one who has to be responsible for letting everything out. This is just somebody doing the work on behalf of that person that that department head in this case would be the mayor can trust. That's what that's about.
Council Huden, any good. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Council President. So just uh as a point of information for everyone uh the state of New Jersey defines confidential employee um by statute and it says confidential
employee is an employee whose functional responsibilities or knowledge related to collective negotiations make their membership in an employee organization inappropriate. This status is granted to employees who, for example, have access to confidential information regarding
labor negotiation, salary data, or the development of the management's positions in collective bargaining, thereby preventing them from being included in a standard employee negotiating unit. Um, I just share that with all of you because there is a
statutory definition. Um, and then I did also want to share that one of the recommendations of the citizen budget advisory board. um that you can find on the preliminary report on page 8 states uh further recommendations for fiscal
year 2025. I think you all know this at this point, but one compensation a implement a hiring freeze and delay in any promotions or pay raises except those necessary for health and public safety through at least the end of uh
2025. Um, this was not presented to the citizen budget advisory board. So, I can't share the opinion of the entire board. But what I can tell you is it's I think it's possible to make sure that this employee is a confidential employee uh but still maintain the
recommendations of the SBA at least through this year. Thank you, council president. Thank you. That's what so and and thank you for the definition because I was going to elaborate. So usually with a confidential employee or not
usually they would not be in the union. So she would does you know that person would need to know for that recommendation that they will be coming out and lose protections of the union union and just be on the civil service
under civil civil service. Correct. Which is the same for all the other confidential employees that we Yes. And just to share with my colleagues, I even when I was on the school board, there was various positions, the you the the BA secretary,
various pos the superintendent, administrative assistant, they're all confidential employees. So, this isn't anything unusual. So, that's why I'm not rattled by this. Um but um again I
for the rest of this year this would go into effect next year or you wanted as of this year we were asking it would be for in effect for for this year of June this year. Yeah June or July 1st would be July 1st. So when we're asking
I mean I I wish it was in the original package so yes it it would have been introduced sooner in the year. Mhm. and I see where their the push back is because it's the end of the year. I just know the work that's coming out of
that office and I'm com I'm fine with it. But obviously, you know, it doesn't have the support. It doesn't have the support. But I think you I think you should think about it cuz I don't want to lose the employee
either. She's very good in that position and um and is working way above the original uh job description. Do we want to entertain a motion? I'd just like to just have one one
further comment. I think that that this employees salary should should be adjusted. I don't think that this is the time right now because we're getting this at the 11th hour. a a big increase that's going forward, but this employee
should should come back next year. And I hopefully we're going to be done with this and we're going to start again very soon. And um and I I would I would definitely entertain that when it comes to us at an earlier date.
So, what do you want to do? We want to do a motion or we want to just uh not support. I don't think a motion's necessary to Okay. All right. Anything else on the mayor's budget? At least on the salary and wage side.
At this time, nothing. Do we have consent on page 15? Consent. Consent. Consent. Page 16. Mr. Tatiniac, is that the next No.
Where have we already hit that? No, I forgot to do something. Um I forgot to talk about where we're at right now. Oh, yes. So, the original um proposed budget
had the increase on the average home um not including the library. I won't include the library right now, but the average increase was $243.31. Um, we introduced after a series of budget hearings,
um, we introduced at $8083 on the average home. And then through the proposed amendments that we're going to come up with, we're now at $53.82 on the average home
um, for the municipal. What%? Uh, you're like 1 point something percent. Um, let me see. Uh, 1.33%. Um, the library is up 11.69% or $1821.
The school is up 2.7% or $26327 on the average home. And then the county open space is up 11.77% or $829 on the average home. And the county tax is up 2.6. 62% or $45.17
in the average home. What's the total dollar amount that we've cut? Um just in the amendments, you're at $439,000. Um that's just the amendments. So after we introduced
um so cut some serious money. Uh let me go back to the document. So we are going to move to
page uh sorry go into present mode we are going to litigation expenses page 19. Okay before we go there Mr. Zeniac I think there might be people who are listening in about why it is that we would exclude
the other I guess I don't know whether you include the o the uh township open space tax and the uh library but perhaps to explain uh sure I I think I I know but perhaps your
yeah so you know we said that we were going to keep open space flat because obviously the revaluation sort of skews that form formula and and would dramatically increase the open space levy. Um we're we're not going to do that this year. Um so we're keeping open
space levy flat. Uh the the library levy is set by the state of New Jersey. They have a third of the mill calculation based on the net valuation taxable of the community. So as the community um increases in value, the amount that goes
to the library through statute um increases as well. So uh we have a minimum funding for the library that we have to provide them. That's the library levy. Anything over gets um approved by the council. So,
and just to uh play devil's advocate, when we don't include the library, and it's understandable because we do not have control over their budget, right? What actually happens is that we leave out a a significant uh sure
minority portion of the the total tax that uh you would pay for the West Horns related, right, taxes, right? Uh, and that's that's $18.21. I mean, really, you got to look at it in
total because we send one tax bill out and the residents get one tax bill and, you know, we can sit up here and say, "Well, we didn't do it the school, we didn't set the school levy." But, you know, ultimately we're all in it together and we get yelled at because we collect the taxes. So, um,
but we've done a pretty good job, I think, from where we started to where we're at today, uh, cutting what we can cut. And that's the local tax uh piece. So that's that's what I what I was talking about with the $53.82. That's what we can actually um impact
with these hearings and with CBA doing their work and and all that. So So I just wanted to throw that out in case uh the other council members wanted to take a particular uh tack about how we
communicate these changes in the budget. So, uh, I just wanted to throw that out there. We don't have to decide today, but if you think it's better or more appropriate for the taxpayers if they know that the numbers include the library, maybe we'll just try to do it
either both ways or consistently one way. But anyway, just I just wanted to throw this out. So, please let's go on to page uh page 19, please. Um, so page 19 is litigation expenses.
Uh the ask is for $629,45.36 and okay somebody So um I appreciate that Mr. Dutiniac met with me before the meeting and we went over some of the numbers of what actually has been spent. Unfortunately,
our general litigation is kind of lumping a lot of different things in and a lot of this expense is um litigation caused by the mayor suing the the council. Um so we have already exceeded the
recommended amount of two 272,000 and we spent closer to 325,000. Um so that's that's um just the reality. We found that um there are many areas in
here that can be cut. So I am suggesting a total cut of $126,00045.36. That would bring the general litigation which we have already spent $325,000 and cap it at $425 which is quite a lot.
And maybe my council colleagues would like to take a stab at even reducing that even further. But I wanted to leave a little bit of cushion in there because so many different lawyers are covered under there. As far as tax appeals, that is not in this budget anymore. So that
is completely zeroed out. The $18,000 for labor matters. They have already spent 42,000. They have um put in escrow another 72,000. It's not necessarily true that they will need that much. So that whole
budget can be capped at 70,000 for litigation ABC matters. They have actually spent um 1 thou uh $1,020. Is that correct for the ABC?
Yeah. Actual paid is 1,020 and we agreed to 8,000. Now, why why do they need that much in the in this last quarter? Cuz maybe that can be cut a little bit.
Oh, I'm sorry. No, 5,000. 5,000. Okay. Okay. So, that's what we paid. Okay. So, so we we put in a cushion of 8,000. That brings us down uh $126,45.36 reducing that budget.
So, I appreciate that you and Mr. Datiniac have done some work on this. I just wondered if we could go through each line item on this so that we can get a better idea in terms of what what is in the budget that everybody is seeing. And then you're you're throwing out a lot of words. I mean, a lot of
numbers and just so we can see in each line item how how this is progressing and and um it's just a little bit it's bit challenging to me to keep hearing. So I I just did for general litigation
the total would be 425,000 that we would be authorizing because they have already spent 325,000 this year. So that just way blew out the litigation general, right? Yes. Okay. Just way over what what the budget should be. And again, I'm attributing
that to a mayoral um Well, does that include does that Hold on. Just one at a time. Just raise your hand, please. Uh, Councilwoman, so the attorneys in there, that include uh Gova's bill, too. Yes.
Yes. And that's got to be up over 100 grand. That is is very close to that. 95. Yeah. But these are expenses that we did not need to have. So, um, you know, that has raised our our budget significantly. And
just to remind the public that the mayor has sued the town council because she has requested the right to maintain her attorney, Richard Tran, even though the prior council did not approve his contract. And that's what we we the
taxpayers have paid over $100,000. I would say closer to $120,000 this year just in litigation, wasting taxpayers money. Okay. So, the next line item, did you
want me to go through that again? Yes, please. Tax appeals. Tax appeals that has been zeroed out. I just want to add something to general litigation. Okay. So, just so we understand that, um, right now the rent leveling board, we did not allocate money from the past because we haven't had many
applications. This year, we've just received two. Um, and one of them is going to be quite significant. Um, and it's going to be for a capital improvement project. um that they're they're asking to raise the rent on a large apartment complex. I'm not going
to get into the details of that matter, but um it there may be a possibility that's going to be heard this year. And the fact that it's I I think it's 160 units or more in this property, it could become a um a long um
you know, request or hearing. It may be on multiple nights. So, I just want you to take that into account that we may need some additional funds that we weren't anticipating, but now all of a sudden we have two applications that may be coming in front of the board. We haven't had an application in four or
five years and now all of a sudden we have two that are up and coming. So, I would just caution you that, you know, we may need uh when you're deciding on your cuts, we may need some additional funding for that. So, just that we're not you're not blindsided. That's all. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's all. So, I don't want to go
past general litigation yet because I have a question. Yeah, you're stuck on general litigation. Okay. So, we're not in litigation yet, but uh you know, every other week I open up. We're going to be getting sued by developers in this town. So, is that
factored into this $100,000 too? I don't for the affordable housing. No, that's not that's not in the general litigation. Would that be a separate spot? Yeah, Mr. SM. Yeah, we the right now the litigation I don't know what what what
the amounts are going to be for litigation. All I know is that what we're paying for the affordable housing pro uh process is through either through um the offices of u Miss McGovern who represents the planning board and we also have our affordable housing planner that is but that's a separate contract that has nothing to do within the
litigation. I could let Mr. the teniac. Um, find on that more, but okay. So, yeah, it would get charged here. I mean, our our attorney would presumably handle the case and then if they had to farm it out
to someone else, it still would get charged here. Um, so I, you know, I don't know what those expenses are going to be. I haven't had a conversation with our attorney about any projections on, you know, what these individual
um I also don't don't know who the attorney is going to be um for the end of the year. Um so I I I caution that and I think we had a conversation where I said I don't know what the next person is going to charge if there isn't a a
new person. So and that was my next set of questions. So we have a case with the mayor and the council that is not settled and we have the current attorney handling X cases
and if a new person comes in obviously just what you stated we don't know what those charges are going to be. So, and we're looking to budget 100,000 additional.
Yeah. So, I think uh Councilwoman Ruden's ask was to bring litigation general up to 425, right? 425,000. Um so you know an increase in the litigation for general reducing the tax
appeal reducing the labor matters reducing the ABC but bringing up the general. Yeah. But for the affordable housing cases obviously whoever is the attorney is doesn't you know it's not because there's always an assumption that person's getting paid
the whatever 42,000 for the year. that's not the case. It gets charged extra money to represent the township and would go in. So I category here. I mean, I would say I don't know what the next attorney's contract is going to
look like. If it's going to be, you know, a flat fee that includes, you know, ABC, not ABC, XYZ, I'll say leave off ABC, but Got it. I I don't know if it's going to be a flat fee or if it's just going to be, well, I'll charge you $200 per hour
for whatever I need to do for you. Um, so I don't know. That's the unknown. Um, you know, again, it would be great to say it's $10,000 a month and they're going to handle all the litigation unless, you know, they have a conflict or they just don't have the specialty.
But I don't know. I I I don't know. And I don't know if anybody here knows what that's going to look like um with the new contract, but you're you're you're right. It there could be additional fees for um expenses for
these these cases if they ever go to just one time. Yes. Okay. But the good news is that the labor matters which you budgeted 348 for you only
spent 42,000 so far this year. Yeah, I feel pretty comfortable in in reducing that because we spent a lot of money when we were going through the contract negotiations with all the unions. Um and and now that that's
settled, you know, those those fees should normalize, those expenses should normalize. Um you know, right now we're just getting sort of contract language ironed out and incorporating theus and all that. So,
you know, there's not much say there's there's always going to be work for the labor attorneys, but it's not as um extensive as it was last year. or so. I think we'll be okay. We have a we have a a pretty big incumbrance right now, blanket for the attorney, excuse
me, and um we're in September now and I, you know, we're definitely not going to suspend that whole thing. So, so I'm thinking, councilwoman, going back to this category, general litigation, because I'm not optimistic we're going
to be settling anytime soon, which is severely unfortunate. um that we go higher on that line item because we are having savings. I don't want to go over uh what we have on the bottom number, but we do have some room
there. I know you're looking to save and and you know, but I I think we have to be realistic and we have a lot of litigation in our future and I think you need to at least increase it 25 another 25 to 50
bringing us what' you say four and a quarter bringing us down to 100,000 a savings of 100,000. Yeah. I I mean you gotta you don't want him scrambling meaning the CFO figure out how he's going to plug these holes because
you know it's been unfortunate that but this should have been this should this should be done. How much is to go to mediation? Is that like $500 or would that fall under general litigation? Uh I I I I wouldn't I wouldn't know. I'm
sure mediation you're probably looking at like 50 to $100,000. I would think um for a mediation session. No, it's not going to be one session. They're going to want a retainer and then they're going to charge per hour. And this is so ridiculous. This is this is not bound by the
I know. I put you on a spot. I'm I wouldn't even talk about it. I wouldn't even say that you think it may not be settled soon. I I would just not say anything about this. Okay. This is I'm more optimistic ongoing and I don't think your attorney would say All right. But we're
Tell everybody you leaning the other way. No, I know. But again, we're talking money here. So, I don't want to be, you know, we we have other items as well because we have a lot of messes going on right now. I just we got to be prepared. I would say, you know, when when we go
to mediation for the labor attorneys, you know, it's six figures with the unions. Um, now I know it's not as much prep work and there's not all the financial analysis, but 25,000 I want to say 50,000, you know,
I would I would briefly raise this another at least 25,000 because we have other items out other items out there. I'm just going to leave it at that. Okay. I just want to make sure we're prepared. So, just to summarize, you
think we should put back uh $25,000 into the general litigation budget just because of what might we have a lot. Yes. Okay. I don't want to, but I think we have to be realistic. So, I know Miss Bennett had her hand up, but I also heard comments from the other
council women. So, do do either of you want to follow up with this? Yes. I just I just want I just wanted to put an exclamation point on this that all of the lawsuits that we're looking at are being caused by the mayor who handed in um who has not handed in the
affordable housing plan. Um it's still late and now we have been um ushered two affordable h two builder remedy lawsuits. Have we received a third and a fourth already? Not that I'm aware of. No. So this
litigation is really the responsibility and the cost to the taxpayers is really the responsibility of the mayor. So I I think it's very unfortunate. I just wanted to add that that comment that we have to add more money back in because the law because the mayor did not
protect us from builders remedy lawsuits. Thank you. Councilwoman Scarpa, did you have anything else to call? No. Miss Bennett. Uh thank you, Council President. I just wanted to point out that uh Mr. Denniac is saying that that he can manage. It is
September through December that you're talking about for this budget and you should effort to be as lean as possible. So if there's a number that's lower than what is proposed and he's saying that he can work within the confines of that number, I think you should trust him in
that regard. Council, yes. Did you want to say? Yes. Okay. Just raise just raise your hand. Okay. Mr. Dutiniac, we had talked about lowering it 126. I understand Councilwoman Castelino is concerned that we might not have enough because we're
looking at affordable housing lawsuits. Um, are you comfortable with 126? I mean, when you bring up So, I I'll work with whatever you guys give me, but you know, going back to the lawsuit, if you don't settle your
lawsuit and you continue to to pile up bills on both sides, well, we're not going to have a lot of money left over. Um, if we have to defend the builder's remedies in the next couple months, which I don't think we do, you know, we're not going to have much left over. So, it it's it's hard to say. We will
work with what we have and if we get a bill and we don't have available money, we will come back to the council and ask for an emergency appropriation and and we'll handle it. Um, you know, if I had a crystal ball, I would have picked the Powerball ticket
number and never came back. Um, still I don't know. I I Yeah, this is true. Um I I think at least from the perspective of labor if we go back to labor matter I I feel comfortable with that cut I we will be okay there
the general when when you know again the variables are uh I don't know who the new attorney is going to be and what their if there is a new attorney I should say um and and what their fee structure is going to be and what that contract's going to
look like. I'm not really sure. Um, the other is that, uh, I don't know if the ongoing litigation is going to end or if it's going to continue, and I don't know what we're going to have to do with, uh, the builder's remedies in the next few
months. Um, beyond, you know, just having our own in-house attorney, you know, responding to it. I don't know. So, so you you throw out emergency appropriation. There's a downside to
emergency appropriation. You can't just, you know, if you're sitting at home and you're hearing, "Oh, yeah, we'll just do an emergency appropriation." But there's a downside. We basically pay for it twice. Whatever the the cost is, we wind up paying it twice because uh we'll pay it this year and then we got to get it
back next year, right? So, we'll we'll pay the money and then we'll ask the taxpayers for it in the in the tax bill for next year. So, um, you know, we're fronting the money essentially, but we we we'll be okay,
you know, from a cash flow perspective, but, uh, again, it's deferred. It's a deferred charge, so it's deferred to next year. Well, what do you want to do? Well, I'm my concern is that that by allocating more
money, we are essentially giving the mayor permission to continue suing the council. And I think that we all want want this over. So, I would not be in favor of of granting more money at this
time. I would agree. So, I I think the mayor is going to do what the mayor is going to do. She is totally not interested in in the numbers here. Um, she's going to do what she's going to do. We as a council have the
responsibility that perhaps she doesn't feel she has to safeguard uh with prudence what we're spending, what we're not spending. So if if we think that we should should uh take a
step that better benefits the taxpayers uh out of additional prudence, I'm I'm fine with that. But I I'm not going to worry about whether giving paying for these attorneys is going to encourage her to to spend more money in
litigation. It's just I I I don't think that's what's driving this this problem. Now I I yeah I I just again we don't we have some unknowns. We're we are saving money and making a
cut on the labor matters. So I you know again I'm going to stick with my original recommendation just throw that move the money to that line item and let's call it a day. Yeah. because if we if we don't spend it all then it comes back into the general
surplus and we don't we don't really lose it. Uh whereas it's a little bit harder hit on taxpayers if we yes if we um underestimate and then have to go into an emergency appropriation. I would like to stay away from those as much as possible. We're all hoping and I'm and I
and listen, I I know this has been tough and I there's I know there's been a lot of ill feelings with the mayor, but the mayor doesn't want to spend this money either. So, to to to make all those comments, too. I I I I'm going to I am going to make that statement. And um it
this whole thing has been unfortunate. It's been frustrating. Everyone, we need to to get this this this done and over. I just but the reality is we do have a lot of messes right now and it's extremely unfortunate
and I echo council president's sentiments you know we council's here to be prepared I think we need to be prepared so I'm going to stick with my recommendation for the 25 on what you recommended so I think yes please I just want to ask are we there was a
there are a lot of different different attorneys who were lumped into this category are we paid up to date with each of these attorneys? Probably not. Um, our process is that
all attorney bills will go to our um director of of law, the law department. Um, and they're reviewed and sometimes they're kicked back to the attorneys because, you know, there are things on there that, you know, they're
questioning or question. Thank you. Um, so I'm I'm sure that we are not all paid up with with our attorneys because that's the process goes the law department first, then it comes back after it's been reviewed to the AP office and then it's paid. So I
know we have bills that are with the law department right now. So So when we talk about the number 325, that's the amount that has been encumbered, correct? Not the amount that has been spent. It it's it's paid and encumbered. Okay. So how much of that is
encumbered is 72,000 and paid actual checks out the door is 252,000. So given the fact that 72,000 of that is encumbered does that you know that might not be spent and that 72,000 I believe
was for the labor matters. No there's a separate 72,000 for labor matters for two attorneys. The 72,000 in litigation general is made up of a bunch of different attorneys. Um, some of it
is the non-escrow. Um, planning board work. Uh, yeah, planning board work. Um, but rent leveling uh is on there. Um, special counsel ones escrow planning board is in there.
Yes. Yes. Yes. So why is that lump there? Because it's not litigation. It it always has been. Well, can we lump it out and so we could save it? Because I like to see it. Mhm.
If we take it out of here, we have to increase the planning board OE. Then that's how it should be. It should be it should be. We need to see what they're spending. remember we had a whole well not not for your sake but we had a whole
conversation with those resolutions on how we want this tracked if it stays in that line item we're not able to see it and track it well we could we're tracking it by vendor but we're not it we want to see it on the statement how
much they're actually spending where the money is going it really should be under the planning board then it's not a litigation it's not litigation it's escrow it also for zoning also in here. I mean, I know that's not on you. I'm not sure if that's coming out of the law
department, but you're this CFO, so I don't know how this works. If you need a category, again, I'm a little disappointed that law department would lump it in litigation when it's not litigation. I guess because the way we're set up is
that the law department reviews every bill. Got it. That's why they kept everything within uh that cost center. Um because again, whoever the you know the attorney I won't say
full-time planner should be reviewing all those astro bills. Exactly. Sorry. Had to had to jump at it. I it's it's internally any attorney reports up to the the law
director I think it's just called um and uh and that's just the way it's been. Um and I I guess that's why again they would put it there. So that would have to be a conversation with the BA and the
mayor about, you know, again, if you want it to be in a different place and you want the attorney to review things different, maybe we'd have to talk about it. So So, so let me just finish my comment. So again, um, so we're here making
amendments for all the other stuff. Whoever reviews what is up to administration. We're just here when it comes to the budget. So, if we're in our purview to pull something out of that category and put it in the planning
board category, I I'm making that motion. That's right. And I'm seconding it. Okay. So, just before So, it's administration who reviews it. That's their problem. Before we we do this, I just want to make sure we're all talking about the same thing because one of the one of the things I thought when
this first came up was that you would just pull the money out of general and have a separate line item, another, you know, like 07080 and it would be for that category. Is that not what you're talking about? Well, they're not they're not they're not a law firm. This is what I don't
understand why the that escrow money for the planner the planning company this is for the planning board attorney. Oh, I thought you meant the I'm sorry. This for Savo and Shock. So, okay. So, my apologies. I thought you
were talking about uh the the planning consultants fees. That's where I was totally. Yeah. This is this is for work that they do where we can't collect in escrow. um to residential work essentially.
So did did did I ask the right question? Is there a problem with pulling that money out and put it on a separate line item within this general budget? We still I you know again if if that's if that's what you I mean yeah I
mean it really should just be called law department or we want to see what planning is doing. It should be legal matters and each of these should have a separate line item. We have Wenson here, Antelli, Sudter, Savo, McGovern, Mayor Tran, and Gova
Burns. Each of them should have a separate so that we can see. But I do think also that the planning and zoning, as we discussed in our last council meeting, they need to be under planning and zoning because the we're not even
sure who's assigning um Mrs. uh Ms. McGovern work or or um Mr. Warner work. That's just being assigned. The council doesn't have any any information on on that.
So, and that's coming out of those general budgets that we asked to break down last last council meeting. So, I just want to say something. Since we have 72,000 encumbered, that's not
not spent, not promised, nothing. And and on top of that, giving an extra $100,000, that's 172. And we're only talking about September, October, November, and December. Three and a half months basically because December is,
you know, over on the 15th. Nobody's suing us after that. Well, just just perhaps to to clarify, um the $72,000 incumbrance is going to be spent. It's It's not spent now, but it is we we have some
we have some documentation that says we've got a bill coming and that's why we encumber. That's so uh council president um in the beginning of the year um our AP department creates what we call blanket purchase orders um to lock up funds for
these different professionals and we do it for a lot of different vendors you know from the professionals to you know auto parts to body shops and all that. So, you know, we may not end up spending um that full 72,000, but we try to put
in an amount there similar to last year. Um you know, there's some we look at historical what do we spend for, you know, antelli caner and we put put a PO in. So, it it's not that like the 72,000 are
all supported by invoices. So, if we have let's say 50,000 for you know I'll use I'll use Anteneelli again. We have a $50,000 blanket for Antelli. If they send us a bill for $5,000, we draw down against the 50,000. If at the end of the
year there's $45,000 left over, we uh we um cancel out the uh the blanket and the money goes back in free and clear to the budget. So it wouldn't be encumbered anymore. So I missed a little bit. of
so given that there's substantially more money. I mean, even if even if there's only $25,000 that has not already been spent, that's already there. So, that's why I want to go back to my original motion because I think that that builds in that cushion that you were looking
for. You're comfortable with that motion. Then if if we run out of money, I'll come back to you and say that we're out of money. We'll we'll either try to do a transfer. If a transfer is not possible, we'll do a deferred charge and then we'll know better for for next year. Um,
it won't be the end of the world. So, what we have on uh All right, I I'll I'll back down and I'll Okay, so I'd like to make a motion. Okay, let me Before you make the motion, can you just explain what the number is and where it's coming from? That way,
you don't have to explain it in the in the motion. So you got a $72,000 incumbrance. Yes. Then you hadundred thou $100,000 added to the general litigation.
That goes to 425 now, right? Yes. And then labor matters goes to 70,000 and ABC matters goes to 8,000 because they've spent 5,000 already. And I'm not
sure um madame clerk if we have another ABC matter this year. Um not that I'm aware of right now. Couple of transfers, but that's Yeah. So So that's a little pad right there. And tax appeals cancels itself out.
That's been moved. Okay. So hopefully you can make a motion in a much shorter manner. Maybe just give the actual number. Mr. Madam clerk, can you just pull the Sure. Sorry, Mr. Tatiniac, do we have to do separate motions for because some are
being increased, some are being decreased. Need four votes for the increase. Right. So then, yeah, that's what we'll do. Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Okay. Good point. So now we have to go line by line.
Yeah. Okay. Um, I make a motion to increase line 060 litigation general to 425. Second. Any further discussion? No, Madame Clerk.
Okay. Second. Okay. Councilwoman Castelino. Yes. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa. Council President Koviaak. Yes. And just just for everybody who's uh following at home, uh to increase a
budget uh item, we need to have four votes. So that just passed, correct? Yes, the motion carries. So that's I guess you did the math on that. 01 061. Do we need to make a motion since
that's already been zeroed out? Yeah, zero it out. Yeah. Yeah, that's we need to go through a process to make a motion for that. No, cuz you have the credit. Was this the way it was presented at the very beginning or this is a new change? Well, we're taking the 108,000 and
zeroing it out. Well, then yeah, we I think we should make a motion for that. The the question on the bottom it's 07 line 070 funded by reserve for tax appeals which give the 100 that comes out too. Yeah. So they're both lines are coming out.
Got it. We do that one. I make a motion to remove the 108,000 from 061 litigation tax appeals to zero it out. Second. Okay. Um,
any further discussion, Madam Clerk? Councilwoman Castelino. Yes. Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scartha, Council President Kovia, yes. The motion carries. I make a motion to decrease
the 062 litigation labor matters from a recommended budget of 348,134 and6 to 70,000. Second. Okay. Any further discussion? Is there No, she No one seconded it. I
seconded. Oh, I didn't hear you. Sorry about that. Is there any further discussion? No math over here. Um, no. Okay. Councilwoman Castelino, yes. Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scarp, yes. Council President Kovia, yes.
The motion carries. Okay. I make a motion to increase litigation ABC matters 063 budget line from $45 to $8,000. Second. Any
further discussion? 8,000 was the number, right? I thought we were bouncing between eight and five, but it's eight. They've already They've already spent five. Okay. And we're just up to 8,000, so we need four votes. Okay. Councilwoman Castelino, yes. Councilwoman Ruden, yes.
Councilwoman Scarp. Council President Kovia, yes. The motion carries. All right. Okay. So, we just cut $126,45.36 and now we need consent on page 19. What did you get? 12535540
126 $45.36. Okay. Is there consent on this page? 19ent. I did the m I don't know. Is my math wrong? Well, I got to ask Mr. Tiniac. I got 125
350540, but his math would be the math we go with. What What was your math uh Mr. Diniac on that? I could have I try to use the numbers on this page. 425
minus 272866. It's 152. Oh, no, no, no. Did that one. Yeah, it's a cut of 12604536. Okay. Okay. What's in that's in the
next page? 22. Mr. Denniac. Yes. Okay. We are moving on to page 22. The ask was for $81,000. This is for township attorney salaries and wages. Seems to me we can uh cut a substantial
portion of the open position. It's September and we don't have one. We just cut the whole thing and deal with it in general. Well, that's another question. Where is hats? Oh, I'm sorry. Please.
So, right now for uh Mr. Spence, he's here. Where does that money come out of? What cap? Oh, he's uh charged to the other expenses. The litigation general. He's under special counsel.
So he's there. Yeah. Yeah. He This is for salaried. It's not litigation. So I don't understand why that's categor categorized in litigation. It's it's I guess they really should have just written it as legal expenses. Um
can we change that going forward? Yeah. Call legal expenses. But that's that's where uh Mr. Burke who sits in at the meetings he's he's charged there as special counsel it's also and just to make a point this is no different from when we did the IT
department and asked for certain breakdowns or the other department so you know this isn't picking on anything it's just certain things should be in the proper categories so that's that's all I don't want to create controversy
here it's that simple agreed um it's what we need to do our up. Okay. So, so the ask is Okay. So, so your re recommendation council president or who made the re to take out the 385?
Well, the problem is I'm I'm optimistic. I I I'm I'm hoping for a settlement soon. And if we do get the settlement, then we will get the new town attorney and that new town attorney will appoint uh the assistant town attorney with vice
and consent and discuss and consideration with the with the mayor. But we really need we've got a laundry list a mile long of all of this different legal related stuff that we need to get to. So
I we're in the same situation where we don't know whether we'll need to use all of this. Well, let's just leave enough for the fourth fourth quarter, which is 3 months. Yeah, I could I could live with that. Yeah, 25% of this
three months. Yeah, that's what it would uh that would be like the maximum. So yeah, if you want to divide that by four, it's basically uh if you want to leave in 10,000, that would cover roughly the
Yeah, that's good. The last three months of the year. Does that sound like a plan? I I have a question. Um Mr. Dinacc, would it be coming out of this budget or would it be coming out of
the litigation budget? So the the way it's been done in the past is you have you have an employee. So these are employees. Um they get paid a salary bi-weekly and
then you have the separate uh professional services contract. So, if you stuck to that same formula, you know, you would have your new attorney be the attorney and then presumably your
appointing a assistant township attorney, which I don't um madame clerk or Karen, so formal. Um I don't know when you last had an assistant township attorney. It was a few years ago, right? Where you actually had a retired.
Yeah. Um, yeah, it's been okay. Nobody says you have to do it. Well, again, if if they come in, we're going to have to we're going to need to have a budget item line item, right?
Or you just give them a professional services contract. You'd be done with it. You don't have Yeah. Why don't we do that? Oh, yeah. I don't know. I don't really like the idea of having Oh, sorry. I don't really like the idea of having an assistant attorney. I think
we only had it because of all the conflicts. I would like to see our attorney be sitting there and answering our questions because whenever there's an assistant attorney in that seat, they usually can't answer any of the questions and it's a waste of time and money. So, I would rather just have our attorney in there and forget this
assistant attorney position and then if we do need, you know, to fund whatever happens, we can do it with a professional services contract. Miss Bennett, Council President, um
I suggest you just reduce the budget to $20,000. 200 $20,250 which is exactly one quarter and separate it between the two positions. I and have a legal department with
employees in the legal department just knowing something about other townships and their legal department. It's important that you have a legal department with multiple attorneys in it because there will be conflicts of interest within the legal department.
So, Miss Bennett, what you're suggesting is not only to reduce the assistant business assistant assistant township attorney, but also to reduce the line item for the township attorney. Just re as you as you all had suggested,
reduce it to a one quarter of the budget for one quarter left of the year so that you can then revisit this for 2026. Well, so we've got competing proposals. Yeah. And we need to figure out whether we want to to do that or not.
The same proposal to me to reduce it by and leave a quarter on the table. I'm good with that. Yeah. Oh, so now you I thought you wanted to get rid of that position. Okay. Yeah. Like the same same Yeah, I said 25%. Yeah. Which is 82
90. Right. So we're just Okay. Who's done the math? $20,250 moved. No, no, no. Remaining 20. That's
82. Two positions. Oh, no. One quarter. 425 is already we already have that position filled. Okay, let's just hold on for a second. Let's Mr. Diniac, you're Mr. Numbers.
Can you do a quick uh 25%? Well, you you've already paid though the township attorney. That's that's problem. So, um my computer's froze. I can't I want to see how much we paid him. You want to leave one at a time. Mr. Tiniac, please finish.
826595. Of course, 38500 * 25% is 8265. Back. All right. So, what what have we paid so far? We've paid We paid 31,000
$221.72 already for our who? The assistant. The attorney. Township attorney. Yeah. 31, $221 cuz their salary. The assistant or the the township
attorney? I thought we were just talking about the assistant, right? No, I I think what was what was requested or recommended was cutting the whole thing to one quarter, but we've already paid our attorney. Yeah, that's that's that would be that's
problem with that. But because you need we can't be without an attorney for a day. Yeah. Yeah. We can't like the new per you know new person would come in and I don't think you heard me. I said it's my mistake. I I made a mistake.
Can I make a a a recommendation? 38,05 divided by 4 is 9,625. So I think we just need to reduce the budget so that it is only 9 9,625. That leaves us a quarter for an
assistant town attorney. Oh, I did it by 25%. That seems reasonable, right? And we're not going to change the town attorneys. No, no, because that's by contract. Okay. So, want to do this? Yeah, that's I said that's 25%.
Okay. So, I'll make a motion. I don't know that we need a motion, but uh for the assistant town attorney, there's a number that we want to reduce it to. So, I can't remember that number. We want to reduce it to 9,625.
But, but just a qu But here's the thing, though. are you? So, what was charged? Because in the beginning of this year, uh we had um uh who do we have? We had attorneys from M. Trren's office. So, did that get
charged to this line item already or that also got um went to the the litigation line that you that uh that you don't like? Yeah. So, these are employees. Um, and I guess in
the past, and I won't name names, but in the past we've had Mr. Quaser is the only one. He was the assistant and Mr. Tran was is is the township attorney. He's a salaried employee and he's paid bi-weekly. That's why I said we've
already paid X amount of dollars um through salary. Um, but we have not paid anybody to be the assistant. So even when different attorneys came to the meetings, that's just part of the professional
services contract with the with the firm um with Mr. Tran's firm. So okay. said. Okay. Motion to make I'd like to make a motion to reduce the uh the open
position for assistant township attorney to $9,625. Second. That's a saving us savings of 28,875. Is that line item 012? Actually, we don't have a line item for that.
It says the salary and wages here. Oh, on this page. Department code 1701 22. The cut is to base pay. Okay. Mark down the right page. So, we have a motion that's been
seconded. Do we need any further discussion? No. Madame clerk. Councilwoman Castelino. Yes. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa. Yes. Council President Pukovia. Yes. The motion carries.
Next page is 23. It's township attorney other expenses also including municipal prosecutor. Okay. So I'm going to ask if can I ask a silly question please? So my silly question is
so all the the past conversation we had was all to the litigation. What's being charged under legal services for 38,500? because it's it has didn't have anything in 2024 and we haven't charged anything this year. Why? What? So, we haven't charged
anything. We didn't pay anything out in 2024. So, do we take out the 30 I make a motion to take out the second the 38,500? Like, do you need like is that talk to me. Do you need that in there or what is
it? I think it was really just uh like emergency funding probably for litigation is what they probably used it for. Um okay gone. So
let's go. We haven't spent it through eight months. Um and we didn't spend any in 2024. Right. The prosecutor we do spend money on just so I I I don't want to cut the prosecutor but if you want we spent so far this year it was 35,000
was spent in 2024. We've spent $25,000 $25,000 so far this year. Yeah. So we could cut something. So we cut down to 35,000. Mhm. Just just to let you know that part of the reason that the prosecutor wasn't in
was that with the timely passing of judged down, we didn't have all the cases going on. Judge the the the current judge is now sitting there and she's handling both uh dockets in one day. So, so you can anticipate I would assume you're going
to anticipate the prosecutor is going to be, you know, those two two sessions every I think it's every two weeks. everything. I would leave leave the prosecutor alone because I don't know how many more sessions they they're doubling up on the sessions to catch up on everything from
when the when the judge passed. Okay. So, they spent 25,000 so far. It's budgeted for 43561 and you're not comfortable at 35. No. Okay. All right.
Anybody else? How about at 40? I mean, I said to leave it, but it's your budget, so it's $3,500. Let's just do consent and move on. Yeah, I I I consent
because who knows? Because we don't know. Because we don't know. Did we? No, we can't do consent cuz we're removing 38,000. Yeah, we have to Yeah, we have to take that out. Oh, two separate two separate items. You're right. You're right. Oh, you Yeah. Uh, Councilwoman Ruden
second my motion. I didn't hear that for the 385. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Now we have to vote. Yeah. Any further discussion, Madame Clerk? Councilwoman Castelino. Uh, yes. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Council President
Kovia. Yes. The motion carries. Okay. All right. Done with that page. We didn't do consent. Is there consent for this page? Consent. Consent. Consent. Page 31.
You guys want to do a break before this one or you just I think you want a break. You want a break? Well, it's up to you guys. We can do a fivem minute break. Oh, it's okay. Council President, I'm just saying. Okay. I just know that everybody wants five minutes. Strict strict. I'm
going to come get you at four and a half minutes. Um, Mr. Fagan, are we all 636 Zoom audience? I'm going to be putting the microphones on mute. We are taking a short break. You can watch activity uh
on the video output, but there will be no audio. Is that going to take Welcome back, West Orange, and thank you for your patience. At this time, I'd like Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't unmute myself.
Has it started recording yet? We're doing beta test. Welcome back, Rest Orange, and thank you for your uh patience. We are back from a short break. At this time, I'd like to uh turn the meeting over to council president and to resume the budget workshop.
Thank you, Mr. Fagan. We are now on budget page 31. Council president. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Um, council president, this is for the business administrator salaries and wages. Yes. The ask is for $320,86.
Um, okay. So, let me try to clarify something and try to speak as simply and and clearly as we understand. We understand that the mayor sent an email
that was supposed to go to the council that was instructing I think Mr. Tiniac to uh Mr. Swaldo who has returned to the assistant business administrator position and the mayor has appointed
herself business administrator said in the email this is dated August 25th. So this is a week ago Monday. It says Mr. Smart should be placed at the top of the salary ordinance guide for the assistant business administrator position. So what we have right now on
page 31 is I think not Mr. SMaldo. Oh I take that back. He is you are at the max as assistant business administrator. Is that correct? Do I understand? 44995. That's the max. Well, hold on. Just I I I just want to
hear and factual. We don't have to discuss it or anything. I just want to make sure that factually we're about to the mayor the mayor when she sent the the memo that's what she stated it as. Okay. The max for the salary. So so it wasn't a promotion or it wasn't a salary increase. It was
the same position that you were before. Same position. Yes. Okay. Okay. So at this point we don't have anything I don't think to discuss. We can just unless somebody wants to discuss more please raise your hand.
Well, it is the same it is the same position, but it is not the same salary because the mayor according to Wait, wait, wait. Just one time, please go ahead. The mayor according to the um letter put you as deputy BA at the top step. So,
that increases your salary. Can I be speaking about your salary? Um it increases the salary for this position from 139 to 168.
So as I said M council president the mayor9 hold on just one coun the mayor said it was actually I believe August 23rd not the 25th because the resolution was passed on the 22nd. So the mayor dated it on the letter on the 23rd. I guess she received it on the
25th and she put into the letter to Mr. Titaniac that I was go assume the position of assistant business administrator and she she put it uh and she stated to him that it went to the top of the salary range. Okay. So earlier in the year when you were assistant business administrator
you were at a salary of 139484 and um I think it was a little less. I think it was at 135 somewhere around there. Okay. I it was in that range. Yes. Okay. I I don't know what to say except that that's what the numbers that we have. So when we originally did this, we
prorated the salary for assistant business administrator um from January 1 through April 30th and then we prated the salary for business administrator top step uh from May 1st
to yes the end of the year. So that's why those numbers look the way they do. Um because they're they're prated for the time periods that I that I I laid out. So
okay. So now now we have a better understanding of why these numbers are different. Right. But I'm just asking you, Mr. Tinyak, because it's your job. Mhm. He is being the assistant business administrator is being compensated at
the same level as he was before all of this took place earlier in the year. No, no, no. Okay. So, please explain what the difference is. So, I I don't know. I don't remember the exact salary off top of my head. I think you said 135. It's pretty close to that.
Um the mayor as stated um moved the assistant business administrator up to the top step. I just I don't I don't know how much I should be able to say about this, but that that is the case that that the assistant
business administrator was put to the top step um pursuant to the mayor's uh order or instructions. Yes. Okay. So, just to clarify, the the email that we just got uh an
hour or two ago was sent on August 25th at 8:03 to a number of people. Um, and we, meaning the council members, as far as we can tell, only got this email an hour or two
ago. And what it says is, "Please distribute the attached letter to the council." And then it says in the next paragraph, uh, effective August 23rd, 2025, Mr. SMART should be placed at the top of the salary ordinance guide for the assistant business administrator
position. And that's what as far as you're saying, that's what you've already done. Yes. Okay. Yes. So, I mean, again, I don't know how much I should say, but after the resolution that was passed on the 20,
right, on Friday at the special meeting. Yes, that that Monday, you know, we followed the instructions to put the assistant business administrator back to the old salary and then was given the instructions by the mayor to to move it to top step and that's what we did.
Okay. And can you tell me what the two numbers are on an annualized basis between the old number and this new number? Yeah, please. the the current number is 168731. Well, procedurally
they have to remove the one line. So the original salary at the start of the year was 134 985 I'm sorry 895
uh 985 34985 okay and then the current salary which is the maximum step uh is 168731 okay now so before we start debating this I'd like
to know what it is that are the council's options if we do not agree with this. I'm not saying we don't agree. I'm just saying if we do not agree with what the mayor has instructed you to do and I realize we don't have uh
a municipal attorney here. What is the option or options for us? We can go through the process and uh if we have four votes, we could change that number. I think
I don't know. That's why we need an attorney here. We could use an attorney. Question. I've I I reached out to uh I think we could I could simplify this. Let me simplify. Okay. So, let me take a let me take a shot at this. So, this way we just talk budget.
So if we go to page 31, we go to page 31, you have the first two uh physicians there. Then you have assistant business administrator.
That was at 44495 because that went until what? May May 1st, right? It's for four months. Okay. So I'm going to again So so you're going to need to plug change that number
to what that position is paying out per the mayor's instruction to the end of the year. So the mayor made this change. You got to now uh calculate the what she's because this is her
proposed figure and then we we we work back from there. So, um, you have to calcul you have to take the $449.95 because that's what was spent and then add on the what's going to be from the 25th to
the end of the year with the new number. That's step number one. And combine those two numbers. Then on this last line as business administrator, um you would need to put plug in what
was actually spent there for budget purposes because that unfortunately that number didn't go through to the end of the year. So um you would have to change that number too to what was
actually spent. Does that make sense? I mean, yeah, it makes sense. So, I mean, honestly, compatible with the budget. Well, what you're saying is that there's no change then. Uh, well, I'm not anticipating any change to the salary for the rest of the year is
basically what you're saying. So, so what I'm saying is that's what I think we should start with is what is what the mayor wanted to spend and what was spent and make that
compatible. I mean, at least on this one line, you know what you spent for the couple months and change that number. I mean, I'm just I'm just trying to make the budget make sense to what reflect
what's happening. Can you tell us what's been done to date, please? Just one at a time. So, I don't know. That's that's my recommendation. I mean, I wish we weren't even having this conversation right now and we could just leave everything, but it's really unfortunate. This is conversation we're having. So,
um I don't know. I would start there and then let's see what those numbers look like. Mr. Tin, do you want to respond to that? I mean, is that if that makes sense. I could be off the wall. That's how my brain's working it to understand it the
budget wise. A second. Miss Bennett is having we could we could only talk budget here. We can't talk anything else. Right, Miss Bennett. And then you council Murray. I just demonstrated for all of you that math is not my strong suit. And now I'm
getting a bunch of questions from board members on this on this issue. So I'm going to do my best to understand this. One of the questions or one of the comments I have um is is the mayor expecting to be paid
as the BA? So that is something I I think that is coming up to just understand from a line item perspective. Number one. then, and I'm not sure how we get to this math, so I'm just going to ask the question because I trust this individual
who's asking. The BA amount reflects an annual amount of $29,226. That's 139,484 divided by 8 months times 12 months. Again, I don't know, but I'm
okay. You all are nodding your heads, so maybe this is making sense to you, and I'm the one. Okay. And then the last question is, did the mayor need council approval to increase the assistant BA salary? And the last question is,
is the assistant business administrator a contracted position? and therefore a new contract needs to be drafted in order to make any of the changes that you've just described. So there's several different questions.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but this person does not have a contract existent at this point. Okay. So did you want to try to respond to any of the points from Miss Bennett? Again, I don't mean to put you on the on the No, I because again I'm not an attorney.
I would say, you know, we have to follow Faulner Act um mayor counsel and that determines what the mayor can do. I mean, I will say I guess the mayor is not taking a salary for this. Um that I
can I can get on the record and say um so so there's nothing uh nothing being paid extra to the mayor beyond her mayoral statement. So what question? I I think before you go I think Miss Ruden, Councilwoman Ruden,
did you have your hand up? Yes. Okay. And then I'll get to you. So in from January till May, this position paid for $44,995. Correct. From May to July 1st, this
position received a 51% increase to go to the BA position. That is $17,416.67 per month. That should have been 52,250. However, after July 1st,
um this position was not no longer a BA position because it was not it was not um approved by the council. So, the salary should have at that point been reduced
to what it was prior to May 1st. As of July 25th, the mayor is is requesting a 25% increase from the original assistant BA salary. So, I mean, I just want to put
all those numbers out there. So, what I think we need to do is to adjust the salary. I I don't know how you do this, but from July 1st to August 25th, there was
about 20 um I'm sorry, um $34,000 approximately paid out to BA when it should have been far less when it should have been an interim position since that position was never
confirmed. So, there has to be some sort of adjustment since that position was not confirmed. And and I wrote a letter to the mayor on July 1st and said, "This position has not been confirmed. What would you like to do?" And I received no answer. At that point, it would have
been appropriate to put the position up for council consent. So we can continue to do the mathematical well I'm sorry you've been waiting you know this is an important point because
you know I'm going to watch what I say but again I'm really aggravated over this because I really feel bad about the employee about about what's the employee here. So a fact the mayor took over as the BA on
what the 22nd August 22nd 25th. She could only hold that spot for 60 days. After 60 days she could appoint somebody else. She can in fact appoint the former interim BA back to being the BA again.
And then in 60 days she can appoint somebody else. She got to appoint herself. She could appoint whoever and this revolving door endors. So my question is because it's budgetary and I'm going to keep it to the budget. What do we need a budget for in 60 days from
now? Because there's two more 60-day cycles that we could play revolving BA and um one of them uh twice the mayor could do it and uh one time uh she could she'll have to plug somebody else in whether so there may be a fee for that.
So, if I'm budgeting properly, I need to we need to budget for those 60 days that we're playing Revolving BA because this is ridiculous. Things need to be taken care of and settled and but we are here to budget and that's all I'm going to
talk about is the budget. So, how much do I need for the revolving door? Mr. Diniac. Again, that is that is up to you guys because if you're settling and I don't know what you're settling, but if you are settling in the
next couple days, I'm assuming that you're going to pay a BA and I'm assuming that that that salary is going to be 209,000. So, I would say don't don't cut it so much that then we can't end up paying the BA through the the end of the year. Um, you know, if you tell
me, hey, like you said before, give me the numbers for what what has been paid through the end of August and then keeping the assistant BA at that top step through the end of December. I can give you those numbers, but I don't I ultimately can't tell you when to settle
and what to settle on and all that. So, yeah, I can give you numbers. If it's just we're going to keep someone at the assistant BA max step and what that looks like, I can do that. But beyond that, I I don't I don't know.
I don't know what you're planning. I don't know what you're settling on. Well Well, we we were trying like in and what I'll speak for myself. This mess wasn't configured in in in anything. This is just ridiculous
nonsense. um sideshow, but um I I just again it's about being prepared and and finishing out this nightmare year. So um
I don't know. I I I don't know. So we have an option. Uh well, go ahead. Okay. the administration came and and and requested a salary raise for somebody in the mayor's office and we we
unanimously said there will be no other increases this year, especially so late in in the budget process. Why would we take the same position and then increase it 25%. That doesn't make any sense. That's right. No, it doesn't.
No, I and I don't think we should. I agree with you. And in in addition, you know, according to to the state law or Faulner law, this township should not even be having an assistant BA because we are we are smaller than 300,000.
So, unless the mayor is planning on writing an ordinance or resolution adding in to our code that we now have an an assistant BA, which we do not have on our code, then we're just adding another legal position. So, I I'm not
sure where where we're going with this, but I do not understand a a lastm minute request for a 25% increase for the same job that this person has been performing. So, and I'll I don't like to bring the
litigation up, but this is another perfect example of the lack of legal guidance from the town attorney that has been going on all
year. I am certain that he knew what was going on here and decided not to advise the council and not to give legal guidance to us. So, we're sitting here with any
legal guidance on what we should be doing. And I can't tell you how frustrating this is to have this happen over and over and over again. And I think given this situation, I
think we should take the step we we think is appropriate to take and then we'll go and talk to our our conflict council and see if they can advise us. Uh but anyway, go ahead. I just want to say I am really disappointed and angry that the council
is being manipulated and the taxpayers are being manipulated like this. This is unconscionable and it cannot go on. Unfortunately, it can go on and it has been going on for all of this year. Mr.
the tiniac. So from a purely budgetary perspective um this what we have put in here will cover um the assistant business administrator
staying at max salary because this was contemplated to have the assistant business administrator be at his normal salary for he or she's normal salary whoever that is for 4 months and then 8 months at the 209,000.
So there's enough funding in here to cover either scenario whether the person stays at max 168 for assistant or goes back up to to 209 at some point. So nothing needs to get added to this line.
Um there is enough to cover either situation, right? and and that certainly is something to consider except that it does not address the issue of whether the council as a majority thinks that
this is the appropriate way to move forward. So if we want to continue to pay out marginally higher significantly marginally higher compensation to this
person while we try to figure this out we at least I am concerned that if this person is being compensated at the higher level than what we would allow that we can't get that money back
and we wind up just overspending on something. So my recommendation and I guess we can vote on it or discuss it further is to figure out what the what the weekly compensation levels are at
the old uh assistant BA step and figure that out for the rest of this year because I agree if we are going to be kept on getting jerked around on this we'll just fine If
they if the mayor does not want to settle then fine but we are the whole reason we took this approach was because we were felt like we were wasting money uh on this situation because we can't get to a settlement. So, I
think we should just continue on and if if and we'll save the money and if they want to hang around for a couple of more years, fine. But we are not going to play that game. And I to the detriment of taxpayers. So, I I didn't see who raised their hand
first. I just want to say I completely agree and the mayor has till the end of July, till the end of August, right? We're not introducing till September. We have some time here so she can end this next week.
I completely agree with you, Miss Bennett. Uh, thank you, Council President. So, from the Citizen Budget Advisory Board, I think I understand, but I'm just going to read. So, the $29,000 salary amount that I heard Mr. Denny XA
and that I received from one of the members. It's suggested that you include that in the budget for four months worth. I think that works out the math to $17,416 a month and you multiply times four
months. So that's September, October, November, and December for a total of $69,666. and the six is in perpetuity. Okay, so that's one of the recommendations that the business administrator
line item in the budget gets reduced to that number. Now, I don't know if there's already been something spent, but at least for those last four months that it's that number. Um and then to stick with the other the
other message that I received was there should be no increase in salary that the assistant business administrator role should remain at what it was budgeted for when the budget was presented to the council sticking with our
recommendations about no promotions and no raises for the remainder of 2025. Thank you. So, I thank you for that and I think Councilwoman Scarpa makes a very good
point that there is there is time to revisit this at some future point in the near future if things change. But I think based upon what's been going on all year and
especially over the last several weeks that we should prudently on behalf of taxpayers just figure out the budget item for uh the assistant business administrator for the rest of the year. And that's what we
should do and we can basically take it from the uh business administrator pot. Uh that's that's certainly one way to go. At the same time, we will get legal direction, legal guidance from the conflicts council and see if we can uh
see if we need to do anything further on this. Is that does that make sense to everyone or is there more discussion? I'm just looking to to get the numbers right. Yes. So, I I would like to first of all,
from July 1st to August 25th, this position was overpaid $12,500. So, that money needs to be returned to into our budget. That's point number one. As of August 25th,
I think we're still dealing with the same. Can you give Can you give us a number right now on how much has been paid for this position and the BA position? Everything all mixed in together. What do you have? I have 85. I
have 98250. I could be wrong. So, I'm not sure I while we're waiting for the numbers, I'm not sure I understand. It sounds like you're saying that we should try to claw back some of the money that's already been spent. And
uh viscerally I can agree with that. But I think legally uh as as far as I can see he should keep the money that he's been paid at the level that yes that was legally uh um legally directed
by the mayor until we made this change. So, I'm not in favor of me of of making somebody give back the money when as far as I can tell, certainly it's not that person's fault,
but also as far as I can tell on the legal that he is, this person is uh is rightfully granted the compensation level because that's what the mayor ordered at the time. So,
I see a little hand. That's all. But that I that's true. But if the position is being held as a held as a holdover and it has not been approved by the council,
it is he is not legally entitled to that salary. Um okay. So we need to stop talking because we need to stop talking. We don't have attorney with us but we need to stop this conversation and I
hear what you're saying but at the end of the day I agree with him with council president and you know whether you agree whether there should be that position opposition I mean at
the end of the day that position was done with how could I put it? It's so hard because folks, the reason why just you got to be careful what you
say up here. So, I am not inclined to take, you know, to to go backwards. We we we know where we're at with this. I think we need to end the conversation. Um, as far as having the two positions,
we were going to consolidate it because the well because the person that was going to be in the position could definitely handle both positions. They're big positions and we have a lot of buildings that and infrastructure
that needs to be take care taken care of and overseen. So to say that we don't need this or that, I I think at in this chair tonight, we're all frustrated. We need to watch what we say because things are being managed very well and it's
unfortunate we have other issues out there, but um we just need to move forward on this. I think we should just today we could um adjust the two line items
and then see where we're at on the 30th because that's where we we vote on the final budget or leave this to the 30th. We have to the 30th. Can I can I make it just just raise your hand please and be recognized please?
Okay. So we have two different categories here. We have assistant BA and BA. What we need to do is go back and adjust the assistant BA salary and then adjust the
BA salary to reflect what actually was paid during the time this position was held as a BA. So if you could put in the amount that was paid, that's what I said at the beginning, right? up until up until August 25th,
which you know I do believe that there should be some clawback. I I hear that that not all my colleagues believe that. But if you could tell us how much was paid as BA
and that would be from May 1st until August 25th. Um so SBA uh the amount is $69,742 approximately $69, $742. Okay. And now
that was for three months. No, that was more than three months. That was for five months, right? That was for uh May, June, July, and August. Four months. Well, you're working off that 209 number.
So, yeah. So, that was for four months. Mhm. Okay. Now, the 44995 that was four months. Was for four months. Okay. So, that should be the difference
between Let me just get that. And we have September, October, November, December. So we have the exact same amount that should be added back in 44995 and then add in into the into the
assistant BA that same amount 44995. And if the mayor wants to come back with something before September 30th when we have to pass this then then we can make an adjustment at that time.
Exactly. Is that clear to everybody up here? What what I'm suggesting? And that is leaving in the additional 125 that this person already received. Well, you should leave that in. Yeah.
Without council consent, right? Without council consent. So, Mr. Tiniac, I just need to rely on you for whether these numbers work for what uh Councilman Ruden is trying to do. Um I have the numbers now.
So the assistant BA position should be 89990. No. Before we go any further, Mr. Tin, do you understand what Councilwoman Ruden is trying to Yes, I understand what she's trying to
do, but the mayor has appointed the assistant business administrator to the max step, but I don't think this budget is taking that into account. Correct. No. Okay. Just just want to make sure. Okay.
So you're doing eight months at the original salary for assistant business administrator and just leaving the four months that was paid for business administrator. Correct. Correct. Correct. That's what we're doing. The other alternative is to just not
make any change tonight. Just no. Leave it to the next time and get some legal guidance. And that's probably the most conservative prudent approach to take. I'd like to move forward tonight and we can still get legal counsel and we could revise it if legal counsel rises us up.
Right. I don't want to do that because once you take money out of the budget, you need four votes to put it back in. Put it back in. Just one at a time, please. So, we have to September 30th. I say we
leave it alone tonight. with the caveat I will go that way on September 30th. I'm not going to wait any longer. We've been waiting long enough. I think this is what we need to do. Well, uh we've discussed this ad
nauseium. Were you raising your hand, madam clerk? No. Okay. Uh so if it looks like there are differences of opinion among the council, we uh we can just consider motions. Somebody like to make a motion and it needs to be pretty detailed. So
Okay, I'll make a motion. Um let's talk numbers. Okay. I make a motion to increase the assistant BA position from total salary from 44995
to 89990. I'll second. Is that the only change you're proposing for this page? Because it seems like they're related. going to make an adjustment to the BA salary to reflect what actually has been paid. So, I would
like to You're not going to add an Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Go go go ahead. Finish and then I'll get to you. The The other would be to reduce from the BA position 139484 to 69742.
So, are you giving us an eitheror in your motion because I don't think that works? No, I'm I'm saying that we have to do two two different motions. One is to increase the assistant BA salary and the other is to reduce the BA salary because
that's where we're at right now. If there is an agreement and there's a a new contract, then we then we adjust this question. Okay. So, you you said adjust the uh BA compensation to reflect what has been
paid, correct? So far. Okay. Yes. So, do you know what that number is? Yes. Um Mr. Dutiniac said it was 69742. So, you would you you would propose in your second motion to reduce the VA
level uh by 69742 or two to to what was actually paid. Okay. Okay. So, let's go back to the first motion on that line item and Okay. And make sure that the clerk gets the
proper wording. I got it. Okay. Okay. Is there any further discussion? Just a math. I just like Mr. Datiniac to do the math and make sure the total for the year is
159732 to reflect the two different positions. Now, I'm not sure how this weighs in with longevity. Yeah, I I'm not prepared to vote tonight for this. I'm sorry, colleagues. Well, there's a ver there's a motion and a second, so you can abstain if you wish.
Yeah. Okay. Should I call the role, Council President? Yes, please. Okay. Councilwoman Castelino. Yeah, I'm going to abstain. Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scarpa, yes. Council President Kovia,
I'm going to abstain as well. Okay. Thank you. The motion fails. I needed I need time. Well, I just uh and advice. Yeah, this this this
requires legal advice. Okay. So, that was on the first one and then Councilwoman wanted to make a second motion. Council Ruden, do you still want to do that? No, it's going to fail as well. Yeah. So, no. Yeah. So, you're not going to do the second one?
Not. We'll revisit. Okay. We'll revisit it. So we are now left I think can wait we haven't we haven't please please please councilwoman please raise your hand okay please did you want to speak yes I would like to ask councilwoman
Castelino if there's any number that you are comfortable with not tonight I'm not saying I won't go here I'm just saying I can't do this tonight I I need to vet this a little bit and I will I will reach out again to uh
the conflict council and see if they can uh give us some advice going forward. Yes. Can I make a different type of motion? Sure. That on this page. Yes. I mean the the right now what we
have in front of us from the email that we received today was a 25% increase. So, so councilwoman, I'm going to advise you to let's wait till we talk to conflict counsel. Please, I'm going to ask you to please I know you're anxious
and I know you like to get things done. I'm going to ask you to stop talking about this now and let us deal with it at a later date. Okay. So, I I understand what you're saying, but once once because this has already
happened and you're not comfortable with clawing back, we're going to be again in that position where an individual will be paid based on something that we did not consent to. You You're exactly right. And and and that's the frustrating part
about this job. So, I feel your frustration. I know there are games going on and I'm not saying that there's not because I'm very disappointed that we have to be here having this conversation and and especially on a position that I
know the person that has has worked this position has been doing an outstanding job and putting a lot of hours in. So, I'm really aggravated that we're here. But unfortunately, we need to stop talking about it and try to figure this
out in another venue. So, with that, I'm really going to ask you to to move forward. And I apologize to the public. I've been an elective official for over 20 years and never had to sit here in
this kind of situation. And then I got to hear how how morale is down in this building. Well, this is why morale is down in this building because there are selfish people and and those selfish people should take a look at what's
going on with this town and figure it out. We need to end this. With that, I'm going to make a motion if we can move forward to the next page. I just have one thing I want to say. Okay, hold on. We have a motion on the floor and we need to see if that gets
second. What is the motion toot the next page? I have nothing I'd like to say. Okay. So, is there a second on Councilman Castelino's motion? Okay. Not. Okay. So, that fails for lack of a
second. Now, I want to understand what we're doing here. Once we get legal counsel, which should be in the next 48 hours, I think we could do it quickly. Can we have a meeting and another budget meeting
quickly to put this in place to put what we really would like to do in place? Yeah, we can probably just pick a time right now uh for let's do that and and then if we don't need to do it then we can just cancel.
That's wonderful. But I think we need to be set up to do the right thing. This is all about doing the right thing for the taxpayers and to stop letting ourselves be manipulated. Well,
yes. Yes. Uh so we have a suggestion uh by Councilwoman Scarpa to schedule the next uh budget workshop to potentially address this. So today's Tuesday, we need 48 hours.
So it's either Friday or next week. We have a meeting on the ETH. So why don't we Yeah. Why don't we have the conflict attorney come on the ETH and talk to us in close session? Why don't we do that? Would
you rather do it sooner rather than later? I I I don't I'm not going to be able to to do it sooner. Let's just We're meeting on the ETH. Let's let's have we and will we be able to make the uh the amendments that we want to make? Yeah.
Yeah. We kind of know where we're going. Yeah. All right. As long as we can get it done. Okay. Yeah. So, anything else? Who will be speaking to the conflict attorney about that? I I will please. So, so the close agenda close session.
So, executive session. Yeah. Executive session. Okay, we'll get we'll give you a time time to be noted. Okay, we get do it before the meeting and a also a um category take the word
category personelation and like that. So I got you should ask him which category this should fall under. Okay, I'll please I'll ask. Yeah, thank you. Okay. So, I think if I understand everything, we just need consent on page
31 and then we can move on. No, we don't want to give consent. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to give I'm not going to consent. Give consent. No way. Skipping it. I mean, we're skipping it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No consent. We'll go back to it.
Okay. Another fun topic. Okay. Okay. What's next? Information technology salaries and wage page 42. Is that right, Mr. Tiniac? Did I get that? You are correct.
Um, so the the ask is for $324,25320. I am going to make a recommendation. Sure. That we I I would I don't want to have any conversations. I think we should move this to your conflict council
next week. Oh, okay. So, add another item to this. Yes. Okay. Well, if we're agreed, I will I will add this to the list. Okay. I I'm fine. I would consent it, but I
think should have a conversation. Okay. So, on page 42, we want to just skip it. We'll come back to it. Councilwoman, um I would like to go back to page 28 because we
um kind of skipped over this and I think we need to make a change. Uh this has to do with the courthouse. Uh Judge Dow unfortunately passed away. Was that the total amount that was paid to him?
No, that that was what Judge Da was budgeted for for the year. Okay. So, can we can we reduce it by the amount that he was actually paid and then just zero that out because we already added in money earlier today for
Judge Donahue to take over his cases. What? Earlier today, we we talked about adding money to the court. No, no, that was money. No, no, that was prosecutor's office. Yeah. No, we we need the full amount of
uh Judge Dow's salary for Judge Donahghue because essentially now he's going to double sessions. Judge Donahghue has doubled their sessions. So, do we need to take a step to do that budget-wise? No. Okay. No. Transfer. Can we can you tell us how
much was paid to judge um Dow? Uh why shouldn't it reflect the actual category even though we don't have to make a motion but just correct these line items? Yeah, I guess we'll we'll change it.
I I don't know off top of my head exactly what Judge D got and sour. I'd have to look up more in her category. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, stuff like that happens all year long. Yeah. It's It's just that this is
September that we're doing the budget. I understand. I'm just surprised that she would get the in he he was not working for quite a few months. So, I'm I'm just surprised that the entire amount
was would then be transferred over to Judge Donahue. I didn't think of that. He was He was not working for What do you mean? He was ill for like But it wasn't wasn't that long. Two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't he very sudden very sudden and
unexpected. Yeah. He was working. We met with him. We met with it about this budget about two weeks two or three weeks before Yeah. his untimely illness. Jane. Yes.
Okay. So, are you good, Councilman Ruden? Not really. I I just I I would like to know how much he was paid because it if he has not been she hasn't she didn't immediately take over his cases. So there is some sort of a time lag here
that there could be some savings. My understanding was that we had visiting judges there for a while. We did have visiting judges to it doesn't just shut down. You know, you still have to I don't know what they were paid. I don't know how that number what they
were paid, but there was there was visiting judges filling in when Judge Dab wasn't available and yeah, somebody couldn't judge and judge Donnie who assumed the remainder of the schedule. I believe it was July 8th or 16th. It was I forget
the exact date. It was It was no more than mid July. It may have been sooner than that. Mr. Dutinia, could could we uh ask you to work out what the numbers were on all of this in terms of what Councilwoman Ruden was asking for
and then also uh where money went to uh visiting judges and uh whether there's any left over that we might be able to address. I'm gonna say no because we factor we calculated out Judge Donahghue's extra
compensation and we pretty much ate up but let's let's see what uh Judge D was pay let me see because because actually on page 29 at the next page says is would that be relief judges? Yep.
And in 2024 we spent 4,900 and you budgeted this year 48.45. I don't know what you spent so far, but that's could be part of the numbers you need to get, but that may be able to bless you.
and relief public defender on 30. We spent 18275 in 2024 and we increased it to 22750. I don't know what the rationale was for that. We left it alone. So the spending was down. I can't I don't have any notes here from
when she was here. I didn't write anything. At the time when she came, they had only spent 5,000 Mr. Fagan, how many people are on? Zero. 19.
Wow. Okay. Okay. So, speak into the microphones. Have you noticed I don't think the air conditioning has come once. No, it's great. We have the window open. It's perfect. Oh, yeah. Knock on wood. If all is here, we have 19. And uh I just want to say
that we're going to have to change Mr. Diniac's name to Smith because uh closed caption has so far provided 48 variations of his name. So um approximately $26,616. Oh my. And what exactly is that number?
26, $616 for Judge Dow. Okay. And excuse me, council. How much how much for um the relief
judges one item line item 190? That's why it's pretty close. Yeah. three uh $3,300. So they filled in for judge for judge down. So now you're talking about the difference between 40 and 26. Would that
would be the judge who is now working full-time getting an additional $14,000. Does that sound right in the next three months? Yeah, there's really nothing to cut. Um, what judge Judge Donahue is going to get
versus what Judge Dow has got, it eats up the full amount. Okay. She's not getting all of Judge D's salary. It's prrated obviously. Yeah. But it's an additional 14,000.
Um I guess 22. Yeah. Yeah. puts her to 625. We anticipate that judge Don annually, but it's rated amount. Yeah, perrated for this year, but she's anticipated to be about 625 for this
year. That was what we with the agreement when we set it up for to pay her. So 625 plus whatever Judge D made and relief judges the totals the other. So then there's 4,000 left over. I don't
know what the math is because she I'll just get you the numbers if her salary is now 625. Well, with her salary plus prorated sessions, additional sessions. We anticipated about 625, but that's not
a it could be it could be a little bit more, a little bit less. Depends on how many sessions she she needs or requires. So, and I can't tell you that amount right now. I don't I know that she's she's been doubling up her sessions.
Okay. So, the difference between her salary and now would be 21646 and we have allocated 26. So, it seems like we could safely take out 4,000. you want to. I mean,
you haven't listened to me in the 50 sessions we've had. So, I do listen to you. You don't. But if you want to, we'll we'll survive just like all the other cuts. We'll we'll survive, you know.
Well, Mr. Din, you you know the numbers and I I value your opinion, your professional opinion. So, if you think you need the $4,000, yeah, you need to tell us. Yeah, I've said it over and over and over and over, and I appreciate the the
vote of confidence now, but let's be honest. Like, we've come up here and we have said, "Don't cut, don't cut, and you guys have cut cut." So, I appreciate the vote of confidence now, but I don't think it's entirely true. Sorry. It's
just so freaking hot in here. It is. I'm not taking my jacket off. Hey, take it off. You're not on camera. I am. Do you want to? I look like a witch when I look to the side. I'm like horrendous looking. But does everybody want to take a minute break?
$4,000 out. I don't care. We'll we'll survive. But I was just trying to reflect what her what the salary is. No. Let's uh let's take a fivem minute break. We'll be back at uh 7:45, please.
I think we can we're still on people. Take a break. Mr. Fagan, you can mute us. They are on. It's not a problem. Then we can't hear. We're not muted up there in the spring.
You can see them. He said I didn't realize it was I'm the one that's warm. To those in the West Orange, we are on mute. We are taking a short break and we will resume the budget workshop shortly.
Thank you for your patience. Thank you, West Orange. Welcome back. Thank you for your patience. We are ready to resume the budget workshop. At this time, I'd like to turn the floor over to our council president. Thank you, Mr. Fagen,
contrary to what you may have suspected given the last half an hour to an hour, that is not firetruck coming for us unfortunately. So, uh, Mr. Dinak, I I don't mean to uh
uh poke the bear and uh but I was sincere in asking uh for your professional advice. If if you don't want to address this issue again, we can just move on. No, let's cut it. Okay. Um 4,000 you said? Yes.
Yeah. Go ahead. Okay. And we'll uh do we we don't need to do we need to increase Judge Donahue with a vote or can we just cut and
I would imagine you can just cut. Okay. Okay. Madame clerk seems to think we need a vote. Yeah, I would. Okay. I'll make a motion. I'll second it. And the motion is to reduce
Judge Dow's salary by $4,000, right? To $36,854. I have a motion on the floor. Is there any further discussion? Yeah. So, so my discussion is you're going to increase the other judges.
No. Um I think with this we're just taking the net of everything else. Yeah. and just saying cutting four from the one. Um, and so the extra from Judge Dow's line really is used up by uh Judge
Donahue. So I mean ultimately it's one line item for salary. So um Okay. And what was the total number? I'm sorry. 38,000 36 Oh, I'm sorry. Um um 36,854.
Oh, thank you. No. Any further discussion, Madame Clerk? Councilwoman Castelino, yes. Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scarf, yes. Council President Kovia, yes.
Motion carries. Thank you. Are we consent on this page? Consent. Consent. Consent. Okay. So, can I ask a question? Certainly because I thought we were consent on
that page prior to now. So I know you wanted to go back. Can we move forward with anything we haven't consented on yet so we could get we got to get this budget done like to go back on things we had already consented I
think should be done at the very end if that's what you want to do. But I think we got to we got to get this done. I think our next page is uh pages uh 43 to 47 information technology other expenses.
Do I understand that correctly? Yes. Yes. Central IT the ask is for 101624. These were the details. We were going to get more details on this page. Yeah, we did that the last time. Um I can bring it up. Um,
and I can hand some out. This has a budget reduction of uh $10,000 plus a little bit of change, 9% decrease. Do we have discussion or consent?
Um, I I'd like We're just looking at one page, right? Is that right? Okay. Yeah. We asked for a breakdown, right? And Yep. narratives and we have it up on the screen, but I
I'll hand you a live live copy for you. Thank you. I think it was on silent. Yeah, mine's on. Thank you. company. These are all the, you know, the
programs you're bringing in, right? To No, a lot of this is existing, too. Okay. Next. Yes, please. And we've actually discussed this before. We did. Yeah, we went through this.
Do you have two more copies, John? I can make two copies. If he doesn't, I can give you mine. I did have for everybody. So, in the original budget request, it was 114,000. Correct. Yes.
And that's what it still is. No, 101. 101, but in this p page that you just gave us, it still says 114. Yeah. No, we we we did 101 in the introduced budget. Yeah,
I got So, this number is not correct. Yeah. No, it's correct. We just we just cut. You wanted a cut and we cut. It says on top. The numbers on top. Recommend budget 101624.
Okay. You took out the firewall. You took out copy service contract. And are all of these fees fixed except for the miscellaneous repairs? Yeah.
And what is miscellaneous repairs to date? See, we don't have it broken out. Um, this is my own breakout because we just have that one line. So, It's It all goes against that 0 one zero.
Well, it's hard to analyze this. So, I would just say move to consent unless the um budget advisory had a lot to say on on the technology. I did have my hand raised. I
missed it. No, it's it's okay. I I'm I'm hesitant on raising my hand because the way we have this the way we have our recommendations drafted, it's in total the five IT departmental budgets. Mhm. So I don't know when it makes sense to
share this recommendation or remind you all of this recommendation. Um they recommend the recommendation was that there are details to support the requested budget amount be submitted for review and then without any additional
support the combined budget should be reduced to the actual um spend amount in 2024 which would save budgetarily $195,000. Wow. I would only add that in the breakdown um
$58,392 which amounts to just under $5,000 a month is for this micro computer consulting and I think you have on the I think on the page prior there's
significant staffing for it director etc. So, I don't I'm not sure what micro computing computer consulting means, but Joe T, right? Yeah. It Joe. Yep.
Yeah. He's part of the team, right? Yeah. We talked about that last time. He's part of the T the consultant. We don't really know what he does, right? I mean, I just share with you I just share with you the recommendations. So
like to make statements like that is not fair. This is why we Okay. So that's any further discussion consent. Consent page 43.
Consent. Um do you have a breakdown for page 44? Yes. Council President, just a comment from somebody online is that it is difficult to read these additional details and if there's
any way to zoom in. Mr. Fagan can control its own. Thanks, John. Okay. I was I was told that they're I was told that they can see the flags and maybe you can make it a little
larger so the flags are not visible. He's saying Mr. Giniac has control. No, I that's Thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, here we go. Zoom in on the computer.
Thank you. A little better. Thank you. Okay. Um, so central IT, we originally asked for 90,186. We cut 15,000 out to 75 18610.
And then uh these are the major um charges. It's uh these four listed here and it equals $74,1040 leaving a difference of $1,175.
I have a question. Um I was I was looking at Comcast charges and I know that we get a 2% back on our usage. Where is that reflected in the budget and is it separate for the rena house? Is there separate from ours?
I I think are you talking about our the revenue we get? Yeah, it's in the revenue side. So we get a check one check each year. So we both leaning back. Um, so that's reflected in our anticipated revenue. The cable
franchise fees. That amount is it's a set amount. It's to the penny. Does the rent a house get a percentage of their usage or is it It's the whole town. We get franchise fees. Yeah, they don't get it. No, we get we get it. We get it. Okay.
Thank you. Yes, Miss Bennett. Mr. Denniac is the Edmonds Gov a new Yeah, it's new this year. So last year the budget was 90,000. You only spent just
under 25,000 and the increase in spend is from this Edmonds GovTech. Yeah. Yeah. Legitimate spend. Yeah. Mhm. Thank you.
What's that? And if I remember, that's um that's for implementation and it's going to go away pretty quickly. Uh yes. Can you explain explain to us what vehicle tracking is? Race cars. Yes, that's for the um that's for the Jitney services. What that does, Pasio
is an app that's on our phones on on all our uh our passengers. And what it does is it gives the updated live area where the bus is so that somebody who's on their if somebody needs to catch the jity they could see in real time um
where the bus is located so that they can hopefully get there on time and meet the bus on time or if the bus is delayed there's you know sometimes there's things delayed whether it be the trains are late or there's you know there's accidents or things that unforeseen reasons why there may be a delay for our
jity to get on time or uh you know or or actually if they're early sometimes couldn't wind up early. So, okay. Can you explain to me what the difference is between this IT page and the other IT pages?
They both say central IT. Well, there's it's it's uh it's a sub it's sub. They all say central IT, but then they also say like online expenses, PD, I assume police department. This says other Oh, okay. This one's online. You know, I I can
understand breaking out PD and FD. I don't I don't know why years back they broke out this online versus the central IT. I don't know. What is Atlantic tomorrow docu share?
Um trying to see if what we spent on it. Is that the archive scanning? No, that's fauvionics. Fovionics. Fovionics. That's the one. Yeah, it's it's what we used in the um the building department um and planning and and zoning and health and believe
that's it for now that we've scanned all the documents and that's the access fees because they it's it's up in the clouds. They we scanned, we paid and now that's the the fees to have the access to the clouds with the cloud actually. I don't I don't know exactly. I don't
remember. I don't want to give a you know a wrong answer on this one. So check my Yeah, I don't know. I'll have to ask the IT director. So, it looks like that's cloud-based.
If it's if it's the I believe that's the Phobionics or they they have a different parent company name, but that if that's the Phobianics is the is the software we use. We scanned all our our plans from I believe we said from 1940
till 2023 and then we have the ability to upload anything from that point on and it gets served stored up in the server in the cloud. Okay. So then the only other question I have is that it says the recommended budget is 7 on the original document on
718 it says 74,000 and on this one it says 75,000. Well, you know, we we came out to like the big ticket items came out to 7410 and then we had a difference. So, there's a
little bit of breakage. Um, so so what is the actual total? The actual total that we introduced was 75,18610 and that's the total of these numbers below. Yeah, that's
we we listed the major items and then the leftover the difference is 1,17570. That's the sort of cushion in this budget. Okay. Yeah, because I guess you know Comcast
could come in a little bit more or We good? No, I'm just adding up these these numbers. It's 7410 and then and then you have So, how are we You're just adding in some pad right there.
Yeah, that's what I said. It's It's the cushion. Yeah. But aren't these exact amounts that you Comcast is not exact. Comcast is an estimate. Yeah. Okay. If they add an account or
Okay. Is the Comcast based on number of computers being used? It's um internet separate internet connections I guess. So is it for e each and every uh iPad is a separate account? No, this is the hardwired accounts.
Okay. Yeah. Does that seem like a Yeah, iPads are AT&T. They Oh, okay. Wireless. So, is this a monthly? This is a yearly charge. And it's monthly. Yeah, we we pay monthly.
Yeah. Okay. And do we get the same bill every month? No, it it it does vary. Okay. How are you with the usage? All right. No further questions on that.
Anybody else? Make a motion to consent. Consent. Consent. Consent. 45. We're getting another sheet. TD. Yeah, we have a couple more sheets. I looked up Atlantic tomorrow.
Yeah, it's uh one of their services is workflow automation, which seems to fit with what we're doing. Now we're doing police includes 45
to members of the Zoom audience. We are not on break but copies are being made. So, we apologize in advance for whatever dead air there might be, but we are still live here at the budget hearing in council chambers. That's less
If you just pass them down in on that. Thank you. And council president, I just want to make a statement on all these IP programs because when we do get them and
the contract year after year in resolution form, we we we do have a you know questioning. So, some of these names should look familiar to you because we they do come across our desk, not at budget time, but
other times when they're presented to us and in the bills list. Any questions on this page? Oh, sorry. Um, this is the PD IT budget. So, uh, introduced was 400. Well, I'll back
up. We requested $452,98555. We cut $42,000 out. Um, and we introduced at 410,9855. Now, Mr. Dinac, oh, sorry, Council President. Yes. Uh if any of this was covered in a grant, is it on here or no? That's in
the grant separate section. If any of these were covered, it's a grant because I know time to time, especially the cyber security, we receive grant funding for Yeah. So if it was covered in a grant,
um the previous CFO would put the grant offset. Okay. Yeah. within the the budget category to show. Remember that. Um so we don't have anything this year
grant-wise covering any of this. Okay. So I mean change the systems over next year. You'll be able to Yeah. I mean a lot of these a lot of Oh yeah. Yeah. We we could tack that. I think you meant like a lot of these
things are you know they're going to stay the same. They're not going to be influenced by Edmonds or Prime Point or anything. This is this is all police side stuff. Okay. Thanks. Good. President,
I'm sorry. Somebody didn't Yes. Sorry. Thank Thank you. Um so, Mr. the Tennia. Just for the benefit of um the public and information, last year the spend was $287,154 um which only used about 63% of the
budgeted amount of $452,000. Your original request for this year was the same as last year despite the fact that there was a significant underspent. Mhm. So, if you could explain I it's it's hard to understand. I I appreciate the
details, but what changed from last year to this year to cause an increase of 40,000? Is that the right number? Um, so we're ultimately requested less
than than what was requested last year. Um, so the spend this year at this point is $334,000 right now. Um, so, you know, I'd have to look back and see what was going on in 2024. Probably was things that didn't
get reported until beginning of 2025. Um, but where we're at right now is where we're at that 330 I say 34 uh $33,000 spent because we have 321843
paid and 11,610 encumbered. But I just just to make sure the question there was a budgeted amount of 452 I'll call it 453,000 in 2024. It's a
identical budgeted amount this year. Right. But last year the spend was 287. Right. Are you suggesting that part of what we've spent this year is um charged from last year? No. No. No. No. It's because this this
payer charge number and and again the old system the old MUNDEX would take into account what was spent this year against last year's budget because their budget software automatically pulled it in. Um I don't have that luxury. I had
to create this. I had to take what was spent at the end of 2024 and that's the number I used. But I'm sure if I look into what was spent in 2025 against the 2024 budget, it would increase this number, this 287.
But what I'm saying is for this year, we're at 30, like I said, $333,000 approximately through through the end of August. Yes. Yeah. Um I'm finished.
Are are all of these figures that we're looking at yearly costs? Sometimes they're new programs, aren't they? Yeah, they're they're they're these are the annual costs listed. Yeah. So,
I mean, there could be they could vary. So the the difference between all of this and the annual cost and your actual ass ask is 76,9 let's just say almost $77,000. No, it's 45,000
cuz we we introduced at um at 410,000 not not 452, right? Um, no. You've said you've spent Oh, what I spent 334
and your request is 410. Mhm. Yep. 411. So, that's a difference of almost $77,000. And these are all fixed and firm. So, what would be the justification to have an end? You got another September, October,
November, December. But these are fixed yearly costs that you've put in. Okay. So, how how does that add up? Because that you've already accounted for all of the all of the costs, monthly costs.
Oh, I'm I'm just saying what we've spent against the budget. I we don't have everything encumbered. Um yeah, sometimes there's programs that haven't been rolled out yet. So, like for example, we're looking at the uh now I'm not sure it's going to be implemented this year, but we're looking
at the uh Edmonds, but even this on the police department with the um traffic with the park parking and all that. So, yeah, there's things that they may not have done yet.
But expense you have in this budget is the Eastern Communications. That is the entire radio public safety system for the police, fire, police, fire departments, which you know also runs EMS and the OEM and it also uh any other units that whether they be our
non-uniform vehicles if they have radios and things of that nature. So sometimes the Eastern Communications that depending what happens something breaks. It's this is a this is an older system that they they're constantly trying to update and um and they you know I can't
tell you if they they that's going to be the exact amount to 154 maybe less but you know you know sometimes the system um we could have we could have issues with each other and I don't know if that's the all fixed cost with it. I don't know what the breakdown is but I can tell you that's that's the largest
item is that's that's the public safety that's the public safety radius. I'm still seeing $77,000 in here that, you know, you it doesn't really explain how you could possibly spend $77
additional,000 when these are all fixed costs and like micro micro computer consulting 14 uh 14.98 per month. you you put in the entire amount 17,976
and Eastern Communications is 154,000. So all of these I mean they're and they're very high numbers and we still have a pad of 77,000 of from what you've spent now to what you will spend
and you you've you've spent all of this because these are all systems that we need to have in place. So, is there any reason why we can't reduce this? We've been through this. If you guys want to reduce it, I I I think I've noted the difference of 45,000. So, we
could say it's a decent cushion there. Um, but it's up to you. But it's even more of a cushion because it's the actual cushion is 77. The only thing I would suggest here, this is the police it um I before we make any cuts,
I would talk I would want to talk to the public safety to make sure that there's nothing here that's critical to the infrastructure for public safety. And if there's something that could be cut, then we'll ask them to provide that fix. I wouldn't just arbitrarily cut tonight without having some kind of input
from the the public safety professionals before we do anything here. But these are all fixed programs. It's not it's not something else that they that they need. But but you don't know that. All right. I'm suggesting to you that not that we won't cut it. What I'm suggesting to you
is that let us let us get you an answer so that we can make a a more um informed decision than before we just cut because I know that the public safety people have been here. I know the police were here and you know so I just want to make sure this is a critical area for for safety. So, I just want let's just
uh make sure we have it right before we actually make a a bonafide cut. Okay. I cut you off, please. But, you know, no, you know, and and like I said, it's not the end of the year. They may be rolling something out that we don't know. So, I would like to hear
from from whoever the chief sends to talk to us. But if they're rolling out something else this year, it should be in this budget. It should be, but but see again what should be and what may not be. We're trying to get there. I know this
isn't a perfect document that you want. But yeah, that's why I had asked earlier like some of this cyber stuff was it covered by a grant because sometimes items in here are covered by grants. So again, let's get the chief here before
we go cut money out of public safety. Same thing with the fire. We have a lot with the MS. We have a lot that they've been trying to do. We're trying to, you know, do something with the the traffic department with bringing in uh the
parking. So, again, like we should have to listen to our directors. They made a cut of 42,000 from their original ass, which is a nice significant cut. I hear what you're saying because I know what and just so the public understands too
is they're you know what they're trying to do is go to zerobased budgeting you know put what you need unfortunately Mr. Diniac did not inherit that system. So he's trying to get us to that system. So he's been very patient with us and just
his first year trying to get what was done for previous years with a very antiquated system to a system to where you know all CPAs and all numbered people would appreciate. So
let's talk to the professional. Okay. I'm willing to hold this for the professionals, but I just But we did we did do zerobased budgeting here, but that's not what CBAB is looking for. CBA is saying that you only spent X amount, so that's really all you should get. That's not zerobased
budgeting. I gave you a breakdown of of the the major items. Um, that's zerobased budgeting. I started from zero and I said, I need all these things here. Now I have a a difference and I acknowledge that
things can happen. Um so if you took that away, you know, hey, I I get it. But this is the zerobased budgeting. That's not what CBA is is advocating for. Yeah, you're talking you're talking
about uh spending year to date is up like 20 25%. Yeah. Anyway, Miss Bennett has been very patient. So, the CBAB is not advocating for you to cut anything that you need to spend. That's
not what we're advocating for. But I think what council member uh Ruden was saying was the spend that you itemized is $365,000. 350, right?
300. Okay. And I think what you just said was that leaves you with a cushion of $45,000. And what the Citizens Budget Advisory Board is saying is reduce that extra
because every dollar comes out of taxpayers pockets. And if you don't need it because your actual spend is $365,000, split the baby, take $25,000 out of that, you still leave $20,000 above and
beyond what they expect to be able to spend. So if something happens that you don't expect in four months, you've got a little extra, but just recognize that every dollar of that little extra is coming out of taxpayers pockets
in a very difficult year. So the citizen budget advisory board on the IT issue said please itemize and thank you Mr. Dateniac for itemizing but our recommendation is spend what's itemized
thank you just a second I just want to see if Mr. wants to respond and then we come to you council council and I appreciate the committee's thought on that but from being here for a while I and it's a he's getting them to a
place where they put everything in. So I just want to make sure there aren't any loose ends out there that they need that they didn't account for because that has happened. I've seen it and it could be something you know very important that
should have been on here. So, and it should be on here or they don't they don't get it this year. So, let's just make sure I hear you. I I have no problem reducing that, but let's just make sure for the next conversation. Council President, just in response,
Mr. Tren had the opportunity to be here tonight. He phoned in. He he he made sure that his position was understood by members of the administration. Same is true for the chief. if I don't know if the chief is out sick or taking a vacation day or a five and two day, but
you know, he could send whomever is in his place to these meetings and be available when their budget items are being discussed. You know, I I Okay. Well, Miss Bennett, that I mean, they're relying they're relying
on Mr. Diniac to I'm sorry. I I I we don't I don't I'm not trying to belabor anything. I'm just saying to your point, this is going on and on and on and the administration admits they're putting 50 $45,000 extra into this budget. I'm just saying
it's an opportunity to save some money. That's all. And we could call somebody. We didn't call. Yeah. You know, we hone it in. So, let's call this right away. He always answers 247. Hold on. Counciloman Castle, are you
finished? So I I I hear this here actually I'm I was a little befuddled that whether it's a chief is really in you know or is it the IT director that's supposed to be in charge of all these items.
This is what the IT people do. I would like to reach out to the IT people. They're the ones who handle this and you can have a conversation with them. They're the most intimate with this and they're the ones that should be can answer that. So, and and and to and I've said this before
at prior meetings. It seems not just this year, every year we never have the IT department here to answer these questions and you gentlemen are stuck trying to figure out this and it gets frustrating. So maybe next year at the budget hearings you have the IT
department rep represented. So you you gentlemen aren't aren't stuck trying to to figure all this out. But yeah, let's have let's just double check that and revisit it and let's move on. Thank you. Absolutely rude. Yes. I I just feel that with every other
page that we've had to to go through, there has never been a $45,000 cushion that has just been left on the table and that we then go back to the department and say, "Hey, what else can you spend $45,000 on?" They put their
budget together. We're approving it based on what their actual hard costs are. And this is this is just giving them an opport another opportunity to spend. And I think that if we want to be responsible, it's a it's a pad. Take it out.
And it truly if if there's something very urgent, the four of us are going to approve putting putting money back in if it's needed. Miss Bennett. Uh, thank you, Council President. This is coming in from a different council um um uh citizen
budget advisory board member. So, the question is, does the U police department bid out communication systems and dispatch software periodically? Um because they are very large budget items and they should be
Yes. bid. Yes. Yes. contracts. Uh I know they bid them out. Um and just like any other they go under public contract laws, whatever. Again, a public contract rule they are. I think we got I think we got Eastern
through state contract. State contract. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, that was recent, right? Didn't we switch recently in the last couple years? I don't. Okay. Exactly. I don't we've been using Eastern for
years. Um whether they're on the state contract or whether we bid out, we've been used Eastern is our provider because they it's not easy just to replace a a 700 megahertz trunk system with all the radios and and all the intricacies that go there. We have two towers that we have to maintain. We have
to it's it's a lot more complicated than that. And I know we've through the years we've we've uh dealt with them and however it was done through the procurement process. And if it's state through state contract and that's how we we have them now. Um I'm not sure what the current procurement is for them, but
Eastern was has been with Town of West Orange for a very long time because it's just it's it's a costly expenditure uh for every year. I I I know when when I was the chief of the fire department back in 2003 or four, we received a
$500,000 grant for radios back then. to replace that cost now would be I can only imagine what it would cost right now. So, okay. So, so where have we left this? Are we going to come back to this when we have
uh more IT and and operations people here? Is that is that what you wanted to do? No, I don't. I I think that we don't leave a $45,000 pad on the table and that we move to remove it if I mean they've had their opportunity to let us
know that if they needed something else and this is what they've said that they need and and this is our responsibility to re in expenditures is obviously saying that this is a
cushion. So, if this is a cushion, it's not we don't we don't see in here just expenses for repairs, which that can be an unknown item. These are very fixed consulting fees and IT services. And
there's nothing in here that's going to change that I can see. So, I would like to make a motion to take out the the cushion of 45,629.52. How about for tonight we take half and then give them an opportunity to give
back to us and then we consider removing the rest of it. That's a good idea. That's more Well, I think we have a motion. So, uh either resend your motion or look for a second. I'm just I I think giving even a
$25,000 pad in this at this time is unnecessary. I think we should just do what we've done with every other department and every other page. If they have spent it, they need it, then they get it. And they they have requested this amount, we're giving them the full amount, 365, 356.
And by the way, that is almost $80,000 more than last year. So, we have a motion. Do we have a second? Not a second. Okay. Motion fails for like a second. Do you want to make your motion?
Councilwoman, can you just repeat the amount that you were um trying to get it reduced by? $45,629.52. Thank you. Okay. You want to make a motion? Yeah. I'll make a motion to reduce it by 30 to 30,000. By 30,000. Take 30,000.
Second. Is there any discussion? Uh, still. Well, while you're thinking, uh, I don't think when Mr. Tiniac says it's a cushion. He's meaning that it's sitting there that
it's not that he's agreeing to this thinking it's not going to be spent. We're talking about the police department. And that goes right to the heart of all government, but especially local government. And if if we're going to
propose taking money away from the police department, it I'm going to require that somebody come here who knows what's going on in terms of operations and it to to discuss this. I am I I have no idea what's going to
happen and I don't think anybody else up here on the day knows what's going to happen if we take out $30,000. And I'm I'm going to have to have justification in order to do that. Yeah, I I agree. And uh you you said you wanted to talk,
but yeah, 30 is too much. So if you lady, if that's what my council colleagues, is that the motion on the table? I'm going to be I'm going to uh be a no. Is there any further discussion? We can always put it back in though if they come to
you know what then let's just let's just wait. Let's let's wait then. I I I hear what you're saying. I know the point you're trying to to prove and I I understand it and we are going to get there. I mean, this has been a very and I've been supportive,
but once in a while we need to use our heads here and we need to be patient. We got, you know, we're going to have another meeting. So, what's the difference? We wait. Let's see what happens with this. And believe me, by next budget, it's all going to be done
differently. Everybody's learning that, you know, things have changed. It's not the way things the way have been done for all these years. So, um, but I I'm I'm not going to go against the CFO
for the rest of this budget. So, would would you agree to your original making your original proposal? I you know what I to me I rather just wait till the next meeting. It's not a big deal. I I I everybody understands
morale shot across the board and we we need to we got our point on the table. Make a note. We're going to come back to this. They need an explanation otherwise this gets either reduced significantly or it goes alto together. Everybody has
to understand we're doing things differently. The IT department included. So, any further discussion, Madame Clerk? Councilwoman Castelino. Uh, reduce by 30,000 right now. No.
Councilwoman Ruden, yes. Councilwoman Scarpa, yes. Council President Cucroia. No. The motion fails. Okay. Since we're going to come back to this page at the next at the next uh budget workshop, do we want to just uh
pass on this without Yeah, let's Okay. Oh, yeah. I don't want to consider Okay. Yeah. Just confirming. Okay. Page 46. Um what we we we're holding over three
pages. Page 31, page 46, and was there another Was it 28? No. What was the third page that we are reviewing again admin.
We did. That's page 31. Page 46 is police. What about 28? What are we doing with 28? Um, we will back to it and make a couple of extra just over 42. 42.
Um, we had it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. For the mayor's uh mayor's budget and No, the mayor's budget. We we didn't we we consented on that.
Oh, we did. Okay. Sorry. Okay. It was um admin SNW um central it SNW and uh now this page. Okay.
Okay. Did we also we also uh held up on IT SNW, right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now we're at page 46, central IT fire department
expenses. Got a new page. So this is um I have another page here, but it's it's the only level of detail is Pascac data services and IT cyber security. Um,
let me pull up what we spent. Okay. So the the request is for 1 uh 13,000 14,87182 um it's primarily for pass CAC data
uh services they provide um IT services for FD and there's a difference of 1,37182 and I did say cushion I wasn't misqued in the with the previous section But
that is the difference between what we've asked for and uh what we are going to end up paying Pasc data services Pasc is a private company IT company can I suppose I'm sorry
is is a this is a flat fee that you pay this is a yearly fee correct is there any reason to maintain the cushion of 1371 one just beyond if there was something else needed in fire it we would have some
money to pay for it that's that's all it is we're only talking about three months three four months it's $1300 leave it alone they might need it I He's very responsible with his budget
he's very frugal I like to take that money from there and put it towards what he actually needs, which I know what he actually needs is the foam. So, I'd like to reduce this. What foam? He said that he needs some foam
fighting. Oh, the foam. What did you think? The firefighting foam. Firefighting foam. So, I would like What? What? What is it? It's Well, it would be about five four or five barrels. That's I think foam is about $300 or $400 a barrel.
It's just you know it's it's something something. Yes. Well, can I ask a question then? Why wouldn't the foam be in here to begin with or did not it? Just please. Oh, I hear what you're saying. Okay. Sorry. She's in Italy. Phone.
I think she was in Italy. I meant phone. Yeah, that's what I thought too because I know he doesn't have a phone. I know that. Yeah. Counciloman Ruden has a floor. I'm sorry, C. The chief is actually listening and so I asked him and he said
that there's actually another uh infosshare software that we have to use also. So they they can use the 1300. They they can't he's requesting that it stays in the 1300. I'm good. What what is it called? Infosshare. That's I don't know what that software actually
does, but And how much does that cost? I don't know. Oh, you just said he needed I just said I guess it would be needed. He said yes. Stop. It's the chief is very frugal. I think we should just let him. All right. I move to consent. Consent.
Consent. That we are left. So, Mr. Tiniac, it does not look like we're getting to uh the death plan tonight. That's okay. It gives us more time to we get in trouble with more time.
Have a notice. Well, have anxiety that this the thing about the debt management plan is we're talking about millions of dollars. No, I I know we have to have a long conversation. I know. I hear you. Yeah, we're talking about millions of dollars when we're talking about significant
long-term impact on the budget and on We need our wits of that. We need our wits about that for that conversation. We are in quite a bit of debt trouble and yes, we are. We're trying to get to a plan to get our heads back above water.
I call it a crisis. Oh Lord. while we're waiting. Pardon me. Once again, thank you for your patience to those in the Zoom audience. We are just waiting for some copies to be made. We are not on mute, so please pardon the
dead air and we will resume the the meeting momentarily. Thank you again for your patience. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. I'm sorry. But now it's in I mentioned it earlier but uh While
we're waiting for time here, uh, tomorrow, September 3rd, is the opening of schools. Of course, the roads are going to look a lot different tomorrow. We're going to see school buses returning there. I'd like to remind everyone in the Zoom audience that uh it's required when the school bus lights
are flashing that you stop and uh please follow all motor vehicle regulations regarding school buses. Remember, school children are our number one priority uh and safety is our number one priority. So, I just want to make that announcement while we're waiting to resume the meeting. School's open
tomorrow. Please drive safely. It's amazing how many people go around school bus. Amazing. Amazing. That's funny. They just had a thing on TV today where TV cameras on every single school bus. Good. And if it goes by, they send the local police to
They should do that every time. Yeah. Absolutely. and double it fine if it kids are on bullet. So, okay. I'm sorry to have slowed things down. Um, this is central IT nonuniform
expense. Again, I'm not really sure why this is not in central IT other or that's for next year. But um the major um components of this budget are
Fovionics. That's the online document retention. That's where we scan our building permits. And I mean really we're scanning everything now. Uh Arbor Pro is software that's used by um our tree expert. Uh we originally got that
in a grant, but now you know we have to pay for it ourselves. Uh we use minicity. That's a new platform that we've been building out. Um, started with the merkantile licenses and now it's expanding to
actually we just went live with our staff. The staff is training with it, using it and and learning and tweaking as we go. Um, that went live July 8th. I think that was the date that it went um live. Um and um once that's all all the
tweaks and everything else that we're anticipating in a few more months that we can actually go live to the public and that was the whole idea of this platform. This was a a long build. This was actually a build from the ground up um based on our data and based on our
needs. So this was our IT department in particular, a couple individuals did a fantastic job in steering this, but it took over it took the all the departments to get involved with it and and there's been a lot of positive results from it so far from our staff
and there's been some kinks too. I'm not going to lie. You know, as with any software, there's some some shortfalls that we're correcting, but the company's very responsive. So we're very to date, we're very pleased with with the results. And then we have um
um Munex. It's a software uh license renewal that we pay every year. Well, this was the 2025 payment. And then we did buy batteries. Um we bought double A and AAA packs of batteries.
So there really not much left over. Yeah. And actually we ended up spending $834. um with troubleshooting the chamber audio. Um so that difference is even less now.
Council Ruden. Yes. Um you mentioned that Munetex just went on just went I'm sorry Mudicity just went live. How much have we actually spent on on Municity?
on municip so far we've spent under 12,44026 and is that for the year? Um that was Yeah, that's that's for the annual support. Um oh no no no I take that back. We we also
spent $1,225 for an RDS instance. I don't know what RDS is, but I think when you add both up, it comes out to the 13 online document retention. What does what does that mean? All of the building
permits were are now online. everything that was up to TW when we uh contracted with this uh company everything up to 20 from I believe it was 1940 may have been even before that cuz our vaults were huge and and there
was right up above our head um they were scanned in up to 2023. Um since then now our staff is able to scan and they don't have to teach them how to scan and put these things in there. So when as they get time they they put the documents in there. But yes, the the whole intention is that we
want to go paperless and we're trying to get these u these documents all served up. It's not just the planning department. It's u the part of the health department's using it. They the health department can't use the entire system because certain things like uh I believe it's death certificates. Yeah, the vital statistic records.
Vital statistic records can't be scanned in. So um and then also the planning and zoning have been scanned in there. There is an annual fee for fauxionics. Yeah. this much every year. I mean, once we've we've caught up with the backlog just to
use it on use it every year it cost 37,000. Yeah, it's the access to it because um we're going to attest this is we use it for Opas and things of that nature. This is this is this is a necessity. This was instead of us keeping the papers and things hopefully not disintegrating the
getting old or whatever the case because some of some of them were very very frail you know some of the older paper and they were able to to uh keep them and also uh what was good about this is for freeing up space was that um this is the only product on the market right now
that I'm I'm aware of that the state of New Jersey has approved for raised seals because everything has to be uh anything has a raise seal has to be accounted for, you know, whether it be an engineer or an architect or whatever the case may be. Um, the race seal has to be captured
and this is to my to my knowledge is still the only company that's been approved by the DCA as recognizing um for record retentions. So my my only question is that it seems like a lot of money forward is essentially cloud, you
know, paying for the cloud because, you know, I get that you're you're scanning in all the new stuff. But even if you're scanning in, you know, several hundred a year or thousands a year, that seems like a lot for the class.
Yeah, it's cloud, but it's the indexing. I think you're really paying for the ability to quickly search and find um because it's not just like, you know, a dump of PDFs. They've indexed everything and it's pretty easy to should. I mean,
I say it's pretty easy. I I don't use Fionics, but what I understand, it's pretty easy to find what you need. Um, but you're you're not wrong in that phobian is expensive. I don't I agree with you on that. But um
honestly, what happens with a lot of our records, they get wet, you know, they they're in like the most extreme temperatures over in that closet over there that no one goes into the old CFO's office like downstairs.
Downstairs, they do get ruined. So, this is a way to preserve them. And then, you know, once we do scan them, we can destroy the the physical records. Um, so, you know, we're not taking up space. And we actually had looked up before we
contracted with Phobianics, we we almost contracted with a company where they were going to take everything off site, then categorize it, but the cost for that off-site was almost the same amount of money. And then anytime we needed documents, they would have to go retrieve it and bring it back. So,
there' be a delay. this we just and the way is is is the way it was explained to me. So if I have a box that's for 123 Main Street, box over here, and a box over here, they all get scanned, but the clerk wants to see 123 Main Street. All the scans go into one spot. It's like
individual file cabinets in the cloud so that there's there's not searching for every department. Hey, you have it, you have this. It's it's one search and and the documents can come up. So that was the the reason that we did that because if we went to the other system which we were from my
understanding we were serious about purchase or contracting with them we may have wound up going to Fionics anyway because we'd have to pay offsite the amount of even what we already have gotten rid of the amount of of paperwork that we still have around here is is
quite exorbitant that's for sure Okay. Y consent. Bills. Last but not least, um I think did we do all was central IT
utility bills? There was there was a question. I don't think that we did get consent on the fire department page 74. We didn't it's on here. Oh, did you put that? So, this is for turnout. Oh, yes.
Yes. Um, in the spirit of revisiting things that we've already consented to, um, I want to go back because something came up today. So, if if you'll indulge me in going back to the fire OE. Um,
and we did consent on fire department. It fire department. We already consented. We consented on that tonight. Oh, not fire department. It say it fire. Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking about fire department. OE, sorry. Was that 74?
Yeah, pageuh 74. 7374. Um, the fire chief reached out to me this morning. Um, normally he has capital for turnout gear, but at this point we don't have
capital for 2025. He needs three new sets of turnout gear. It's approximately $15,000. I said I would ask um the council by do a capital. Well, we could always put it in capital
and reimburse the account. Um but I I said I would ask at the at the meeting to see if the council will uh add 15,000 to the OE budget to buy the turnout gear. If not, that's okay. We'll as long as we
can commit to turnout gear for this year and we'll chief was telling he needs about 10 to 12 sets a year. Uh and the reason being is that we started years ago on a replacement program not only just for the individual uh new hires. Um but the
replacement the yeah they have life expectancy. They have a life expectancy of 10 years from the manufacturer of the bulk, not of the cloth, not 10 years of the manufacturer of the actual suit. So the the companies actually hold off. They only make the
bolts of cloth a couple times a year because and then they get large orders from all or wherever they get them from and then they cut them all up. So this way the date is specific to the date it was manufactured in the on the bolt and then assembled then then later on
assembled as a as an ensemble you know a turnout ensemble and that includes the pants the and and the jacket which is you know it's just quite an expense and that just it's a necessary requirement. It's a push
requirement. So, we have we have one new hire that needs equipment and then we have two that expire, two sets of turnout that expired or are expiring, I should say. Yeah. So, I'm okay. So, our option is either to add to the budget
or just if we can commit at some point this year to doing turnout gear, you know, we can he he can take it in his OE budget now and when we get capital, we reimburse his OE budget. I I just wanted to put it out there. I said I would ask
um so this qualifies as this qualifies as a capital. Yeah. Turnout here is capital. Yeah. Because it's a 10 year it's 10 year life. All right. So we'll put in capital. What gets it to them faster? Yeah. Doesn't matter. So this this will get it to them faster.
They have to order. They have they have a recruit in the academy right now who's using he's using old gear that they can utilize in an academy because it's a controlled ser controlled environment, but once he gets out of the street, he needs to have a new set of gear. The other two individuals have their their
gear has reached the shelf life. Well, we definitely pulled more than $15,000 out tonight. So, I have no problem I have no problem putting leaving OA. Any further discussion, questions?
And and it will be labeled as such, just turnout gear, 15,000. It's not going to go into like a miscellaneous count. We'll just make sure that it's replacement turnout gear. I could even note the year. I want to understand this expense. This is for a uniform. This is not the uniform. This is the
safety equipment. the where it goes. It's the It's the jacket and the pants, the fire retardant. And each of these costs $5,000. It's pants, gloves. That doesn't include That's the That's the turnout pants. And that's the
turnout jacket. That's not the helmet. Doesn't include the helmet. It doesn't include the the actual unstation wear which has to also be either cotton or NOMX type of material which then they themselves are about $800 just for the station wear. Um it's it's it's it's an
expensive um it's a it's an expense that's we're kind of held to held hostage to what the cost of the industry is. I would call this a have to. Yes, this is definitely a have to. Why wasn't this in the original budget? The chief had well two people they just
went through a uniform inspection. They noticed that we just hired a new person. As I said before, we do the fire department has traditionally done about 10 to 12 unhation wear a year because as I explained before there's a 10ear shelf life. You have you have approximately 88 firefighters. So every 10 years if you
do one every do 10 years in theory in 11 years the guy who got year one will get your 10 or 11 I should say. So it's it's just a replacement program. And then when we have new people, you have to issue a brand new set of gear to a new person. You don't issue
uh gear to old gear to a person use all the time because it's just not going to be safe. When is this new person going to be hired? They were hired already. They're in the academy. He's in the academy now. Yeah. And you got to order it. It takes time to get it.
We haven't done a capital. We haven't done C. We didn't do capital last year and we've been paying for turnout gear from grants. The assist is the firefighters grants and so the chief is always applying for grants and and u you know for various different you know whether it be safety gear or
training equipment things of that nature. It's just an ongoing um u payment that we have to make and um you know it's just and and and I know you're when we said we just hired a new firefighter. I understand what the committee says, but you got to remember themies only happen once or twice a
year. So, we're kind of subject to getting when it takes it takes about 16 weeks or longer to get a firefighter trained just to get on the trucks. That's what the EMS EMT training. It could be 14 to 16 weeks depending on the academy. So, you're talking four months
just in training and equipment and things of that nature and sending them off. So we have we're we're we're limited as to when we can hire and when we can process how many same thing goes with the police academy. How many firefighters do we have? There's a staff of 88. So I mean this that's a very big
expense. $5,000 for each one. So can we get some sort of information in terms of you know when you're going to need to be replacing the next that would have to ask Chief that I'm sure he'd be able to Yeah. be part of capital plan. Yeah. He
usually does um when do we get his report? He always gives us a report every year. Yeah. The annual pictures and everything. It's usually usually puts in his annual report. He's very thorough. He's very thorough. Yeah. I trust his judgment to have to. Any other discussion?
He said last year they used over $100,000 in grant money to buy um Yeah. fire fire station gear. Thank you, Chief. Just a very quick comment. I understand he's very thorough, but he's asking you
to make an expenditure that's not included in the budget and there is a way to know if you know that you have 88 firefighters and you know that they each need one. You know the dates of the suit so you're not out of compliance and it's really just a matter of managing. Again,
this is like a manage manage issue. Nobody's saying that our firefighters should not have safety gear. The issue the issue is setting up your budget. Well, that's all in all to due respect to that um to the committee. Sorry. Sorry, council
president is if you listen to what Mr. Dutan Dutinak started out with is that he puts this in the capital budget and we haven't had a capital budget. This council, the last council at the end of last year, we're way overdue with
a capital budget. So he it wouldn't have been put into this budget because he would have put it um in the capital, but we're not even there yet. That's why I said what gets it to him faster. And by us putting it into his OE gets it
to him faster. That's the only way because I I just want you to explain that he he does a great job managing his department. He does. This is purely my idea. Um, obviously the chief told me he needs turnout gear, but I said I would request it in the OE budget because I I just was
nervous. I didn't want to not have the funding for it. Um, yeah. I mean, the chief will definitely put it in his capital request. He already has his capital request from last year. Um, yeah, last two years. So, we'll tell you what. Can't wait to
But this this was this was on me to I said I I wanted to ask the council because again I got nervous. It's $15,000. I wanted to have at least know that it was going to go into the budget because who knows what's going to happen with capital if we have a hard time getting something approved. I I wanted
to make sure that we had the turnout gear in there. So So I make a motion to That's going to be his cheapest request. I'll second it. I make a motion to put 15,000 into the OE for the fire department for the for the uh
the gear turnout gear. Does that meet your requirement? Yes. Yes. 15,000. Do I have a second? I second. Yes. Oh, sorry. Councilwoman Scarper. Okay. Councilwoman I'm sorry.
Any further discussion? Please go ahead. Councilwoman Castelino. Yes. Councilwoman Ruden. Yes. Councilwoman Scarpa, yes. Council President Crophobia, yes. The motion carries. So, on behalf of Chief Veio, I'm sure I'm saying thank you for him. He hasn't asked me to, but I'm sure he he would
likely want to say that to you tonight. So, thank you. Hey, I'm glad we have the firefighters that are going to So, it utilities, is that the last um util utilities? No, I think nonform.
No, we we have utilities on page 112 to to 116. We're 4 hours. 9:07. Council President, are we going 10 or 11 or tomorrow? We also need what do we have left? We
have this. What do we have left? Utilities and debt service. That's it. 112 to 116 and then and then debt service. So we can pick up. I mean, and we have a review of page 31, 42, and
46. Well, when would you like to get together again? How about Friday? But not in school. Not late. Oh, you're in. So, it has to be either 12 or 4. No, I'm not doing four o'clock on a Friday.
No, I don't want to do I don't do four o'clock. I usually do have I don't think that the staff should do four o'clock on a Friday. 12:00 you can do well just for an hour. Oh yeah. So so so can I make recommendation your
page? We have page just 112 for the 112 to 11. It's four pages. Oh, four pages of I mean, is it that I mean, we're gonna have to come back anyway.
This I know, but if we could just focus on debt service and really just have our brains because I don't want to like we'll go through this and then be fried for debt service or maybe start with debt service. We could start with like you said, that's extremely
important is a debt service and we really need to be focused for that. And I don't understand like am I missing something why this should be take us so long? No, but we're going to have to come back
anyway. That's that's my point. Okay. Think I make a recommendation we come back to debt service first. So our brain my brain's working. I'm not want to speak for everybody but No, good idea. Sorry, Councilwoman, but you got me uh
my brain crying by the end of the night. I'm going to be It doesn't sound like it's going to be Friday. Um what's How about Thursday night? No, Thursday. I have open space. I can do that's We're going to have
There was a zoning board meeting Thursday night for that. Okay. In chambers. Uh no, it's uh virtual. Well, the zoning board is also on on the fourth unless we can do Well, it has to be 48 hour notice.
I could come like three. You don't haveity. We're not on those boards. So, all other boards, this is the priority. Correct. And I'm not I don't think we should drag 48 hours. Yeah, we can do Friday.
I'm not She can't do late. She only do 12. I can only do an hour though. We're not going to get it in now. Have you not had been to one of our budget events? Yeah, we got all these other things. You need an hour per page. Okay. So So next week,
the 8th is our meeting. That's the Monday. Mhm. And and and you know what? We're having executive session. So we So how about the 10th? Is there a planning board meeting with
the 10th? Yeah, we all should listen into meant the GFO. What is it? Tweet. Meant the GFO. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Okay. Done. Boom. Boom. So, we can't do Thursday. Yeah. Town paid. Oh, that's why we're doing the meeting
on Monday. Okay. Town didn't pay. Don't worry. I'm pulling all those bills. Got recording. You can't do Thursday. Oh god. No. Um, I'll be here. Rent leveling board. We have rent
leveling board at 6. I can do 12, but you can. No, I can I only have an hour left. Well, as long as we have a quorum, we can go forward. It's true. So, maybe we start at noon. Why don't we Why don't we do Friday for
one hour and see what we get done? Friday at noon. I never if we want because we have a phone but wait she's not Friday. Friday I It's going to rain. No, no, I have the
babies or the one baby. Um I could probably just do an hour. How long will that uh debt presentation be?
Um, probably like 20 minutes, half hour. It depends on the questions. Um, I don't usually ask any questions, so it's okay. I'll try to condense it. I'll try to condense it as best I can. There's a lot of data in it, but the overall message
is more of like here's the annual plan to stick to and if we stick to it, we will get to a point where we can be pay as you go by 2039 or something like that. Yeah. But it but it's a road map. It's
supposed to be a road map to say, you know. Yeah. And you can you can go a little bit more, you can go a little bit less, but like if you sort of stick to the road map, you will get to a point barring any like ridiculous in interest increases where we could be
um pay as you go and really reduce the debt. So, just a couple questions on the on the presentation. You talk about I think it's $22 million in authorized borrowing that we need to do over the next two years. would you please just provide us a list of those uh so we can go in and
see if we agree with you on the urgency and necessity of this because if we can cancel some of that stuff out it yeah any spent yeah I make a recommendation can we
is Friday can we instead of having a conference do we have a conference agenda planned for next Monday can We wait for not have council press not have one and skip start the meeting at 6 and do the the the earlier
report from 6:00 to 7. Good idea. That's a good idea. I like that. Yeah, I know. But we don't have conference agenda, do we? We don't need that. We should doing our business. Yes, we have a couple of requests for conference agenda on Monday and
No, just tell them we're we're booked. We have more. We also have we also now have an executive session. So, can we come earlier? I'm saying can we come at 6 or 64 for what?
Well, we could do executive session at 5:30. Yeah, we could come earlier and then do the presentation from 6:00 to 7. I I think what's we can move around the agenda. The thing is people are used to being able to do public comment at 7 o'clock. So yeah, whatever we can do,
make sure we have public comment. Yeah, executive session. Nobody's going to miss us. So is there anything else? We should come earlier on Tuesday. Monday. Let's just stick with Monday. Okay. So we're talking about 5:30 or 6 o'clock for executive session.
Can we even be talking about this? We haven't noticed this, have did we? Yeah, we did. No, but not not council meeting. I think budget workshops. I said not council meeting, right? So, it's okay for us to be talking about that.
No. Uh at a budget workshop. Yeah. It's not We can't put pick a day for budget like Oh, that you can do because I I put that on the notice, but I'm just, you know, I don't know. Again, it's it's a legal question. So,
yeah. I just think more people would have an opportunity to walk. Yeah. They should and it would on Friday at 12. It would be great to do it on Monday, I think, because people should see the deck. I'm sorry. You're not here Monday night. I'll be here Monday night. He's going to
Oh, I thought it was Tuesday. Sorry, Tuesday morning. Oh. Oh, okay. All right. Forget that idea then. So, you can do it Friday. You couldn't present it to us on Friday. Present Friday. Okay. They just leave it Friday. I'll figure it out. On Friday, even workshop,
I'll figure out how to get there. Uh the fifth. Yes. Okay. Friday 12:00 noon. Okay. Yeah. I have to do a zoom. Friday. Yeah. I have to do it zone. It was so nice having everybody here. I missed you all terribly.
Madam clerk, just for clarity, that's September 5th, 12:00 budget workshop. Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. I do have one question for Mr. Datiniac. You don't have to answer it tonight. My one concern with utilities. So, um you don't have to answer it tonight. just
like I just want to make sure we're covered and we have enough money um budgeted with this summer with you know what's going on in New Jersey with the electric bills going skyhigh. Yeah. Um I just want to make sure that we're
in good you know obviously this budget was crafted so long ago. Are we going to have enough money to pay our electric bill for the rest of the year? I I think we'll be okay. The the new rates went into effect July one. Sorry. Okay. Um, so it's not a full year and uh, you
know, I tried to when I put together the electricity budget, I tried to account for the increase because we certainly knew it was happening. Um, we we should be okay. Okay. Are we changing the time for Monday's
meeting? I don't know. We can't talk about it. Oh, it's 12 right now. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's 12 o'clock. No, no, that's Friday's meeting. Oh, that's the budget workshop. I was going back to the town's meeting, which you're not supposed to talk about. So,
all right. Well, we could we could give you a time tomorrow. Yes, absolutely. Independently. Yes. I don't understand. Can we send please send an email to Madame Clerk about what you think is the optimum time your preference Monday?
We can't do budget. So what's uh I just don't think we should have we should have consent agenda. Well, we're talking about executive session, too. Oh, can we have it? Can we have it before the meeting? Absolutely. We have to find out. No, nothing. Nothing. We'll talk about
what is that notion? I'm available anytime after fuller. Okay. So, I just want to thank Mr. Datiniac. I know this has been a very stressful budget season and and are we still online, Mr. Fagen? Uh yes, we still are online. The meeting
has not been adjourned. Motion to adjourn. Uh 13. I thank you. 13. Your meeting was there. Good night. What's I can show you. Oh, you do. Yeah. No, I don't. Okay. We are adjourned. Uh,
and