than this is to advise that notice time date location to the extent known agenda of subject meeting was promly posted in the public place reserved for such similar announcements on February 25th 2025 and transmitted to the times The Prince and packet in West Windsor
Plainsboro news on February 25th 2025 and filed with the Township Clerk on February 25th 2025 Trish please call a rooll yes yes yes
here here we have a quorum thank you I don't think I have any comments so I'll open it up to the public for to come up to the microphone to speak on non-agenda non- pending items step up the microphone state your name and address for the record you'll be war
in seeing none next order of businesses July 17 2024 meeting minutes uh let it be known that Mr pankov has arrived any does anybody have any uh
changes amendments uh clarifications regarding July 17 2024 minutes I move the approval of the July 17th 2024 meeting minutes second second by the mayor uh
all in favor say I okay um thank you I just want to make sure that hold on a second want to make sure that uh the people that are eligible to vote were eyes
you couldn't vote so okay so Mr Lao abstains and then the rest of us uh are approved thank you okay we're going to talk of the draft site plan subdivision check list is next
on the agenda David that's me and and Sam I think you're contributing right okay good to know we all contributed good evening everybody um for the record this is David Noak with Burgess Associates tonight discussing uh
the draft site plan and subdivision checklist uh just wanted to just go over a little bit of background about why we're doing this because it's not necessarily just for the fun of it um it's been about 20 years since the township has updated it's site planed
subdivision checklist ordinance so by way of backgrounds and the board often hears this too but by way of background when an application is filled out there are checklists that dictate what materials need to be submitted with that
application the last time the township updated its checklist ordinance was about 20 years ago or so since that time there's been changes in technology um so some of the requirements of the items in our checklist ordinances are just a little outdated so for example one item
dealing with soil directed people to use the Department of Agriculture nobody really uses that anymore it's in another resource so technology has changed resources have Chang there is also a major change in the municipal Landry law regarding the time of application role versus the time of decision
role back in the olden days uh the municipal Landings law was structured so that a municipality had the right to change its zoning regulations mid application so if there's an application in front of this board the council could theoretically while that application is
being heard change the zoning which would maybe require an additional variant or even change jurisdiction and that applicant would really have not much to do about it was kind of an unfair system and that was changed to the time application rule so whatever is set in ordinance at the time of an
application now rules which means it's very important to make sure that everybody knows and everybody's on the same page about what's required on those checklist ordinances because those checklists are designed to ensure that the board the public and everybody
involved have enough information to make a coherent and intelligent decision on an application it's also there to guide applicants about what their expectations are now these ordinances for checklists typically apply to any type of
application so somebody submitting a site plan for 868 units near the Princeton train station or they're submitting a smaller application somewhere else in town for maybe a gas station whatever it might be those ordinances those checklists all apply
but an applicant has the right to request a waiver or you know provide it certain information or request a waiver from not providing certain information it's important to have that all laid out because the board can only really
requests what's on those checklists if you have an application if you want additional information that's not on that checklist item a we can't hold them up for being complete or incomplete based on that and B they don't necessarily need to give you that
information so often times it's better to have that identified on a checklist and Grant the waiver rather than go into an application thinking that you might not be able to have that information so that's the background about why we're updating these checklist ordinances one just to make sure that everybody's on
the same page about what needs to be submitted with an application making sure that resources and um uh uh directives in those checklists are up to date with current technology and making sure that applications have
enough information for all of us to make an informed decision so those drafts were prepared we had gotten some questions back from Council what I did is that I tried to organize those questions in the different categories uh planning and legal questions landscape architectural
questions traffic questions and Engineering questions so what I was hoping to do is just go through some of those questions provide the answers and those are all outlined in the memo go through each of those categories and then after that we can take additional questions regarding the site
plan checklists the subdivision checklist open it up to the public and just do that kind of in a coherent fashion can I ask a question yeah so it's it sounds like the checklist is casting a very wide net on the items
that need to be here to correct yes and you know forgive me I'm just throwing this idea out there does it make sense to have checklists different checklists based on the zoning or the
area or the type of to make it more efficient uh you can't necessarily do that per zoning District okay uh but we do have separate checklists for say like a concept plan which would require less information or a minor site plan as opposed to a preliminary and final site
plan so we try to organize those checklists by application type not necessarily by zoning type so we do it in a certain regard already so if it's a concept plan less information is needed than a minor cyclan and for a minor cyclin less
information is needed than a full-blown glan final cyan yes yeah because what I was just thinking is that so you have an applicant goes through a hundred and I don't know I don't remember how many l items there are but goes through 100
items checks off 27 of them whereas if it was more customized for the type of and I'm just throwing out an idea here customized for the type of application the area or or whatever they're building there' be let's say 30 checklist items
and they check off 29 of those you know it's more like yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm doing it instead of like thinking about 70 something that no bearing yeah that was my idea behind asking no and I totally get it uh for application types
it's smart to take a uniform approach because you're going to see a lot of overlap right so an application for a fast food facility facility fast food restaurant is going to obviously look a lot different from an application for 20 multi family units right but that being
said you might be interested to know what the architectual plant are going to look like for both or what the traffic patterns going to look like or the signage or traffic Generation Um storm water controls so even though they're very two different applications you're still going to be
looking for some of the same information so that's why we organize it with application type like a preliminary final site plan or preliminary final subdivision as opposed to um use types I'll Sor okay
thanks um the uh question the question I would have would be um I think you said that in your uh intro was that if I'm an applicant and I have a application in
front of the planning board and you know I don't think I need a traffic study for example then I can ask for a waiver of that yeah and I can be granted and I don't have to
provide you with a traffic study I don't have to hire a traffic engineer or whatever um or whatever else is on the um checklist if there are I don't know 10 items that I don't think I need then
I can request a waiver or maybe I question I can come into the township and say hey why do I need this or do I need this or whatever and somebody in the township can provide me with that absolutely there's multiple stops for that too right so when an application
and Sam feel free to interrupt me too when an application comes in Sam is typically the first person to get it right so he's looking at completeness right away then for site plan or self-division applications in front of this board we go through the TRC process so if an applicant is building a
thousand units somewhere hypothetically and and they say you know what we don't need a traffic study during the TRC process quazi might saywell you know what I'm going to disagree you guys should provide a traffic study and you should be looking at X Y and Z yeah this is quasi again uh answer to your
question typically the traffic study trig is triggered or required if it generates 100 trips if it is less than 100 like one one or two single family home you do not need it yeah so that's
in industry standard if it is 100 and more trips adding to the roadway system you will need a traffic stud anything less than 100 you will not it if when an application comes in and I'm reviewing it for completeness and it goes in front of the TRC for a virtual meeting um and
the applicant says you know I don't need since we're picking on quasi I don't need a traffic analysis done the TRC will strongly indicate that we the staff would not support it when it comes to the planning board and typically that's enough on on any item if the staff's not going to uh support the waiver request
then they won't get past TRC they'll submit what we are asking them to Smit so typically any waiver request that comes in front of the board as far as I can remember a a site plan checklist waiver Fran's pretty good about listing them in his report David also I don't
know of any case where the board disagreed with the staff's recommendation that that waiver be granted or whatever so we typically don't have a problem with that and the applicants are very accommodating to submit what we're asking for but we're getting to a point now where as David
explained there's more like we have an air and noise consult so we never had a checklist requirement for submitting a noise study or an air study or something like that so we consulted them and there's language in the checklist now for that if it's not in the checklist I
I can ask but they don't have to require it or submit it and the board can't require that either I mean so we're trying to get everything brought up the speed in anticipation for the next round four of affordable housing applications coming in maybe in 2026 or
2027 and I I I noticed um on in a lot of these applications for the checklist Pages there's a lot of just simply Na and how how do you handle those that's reviewed when an application comes in and I send it out
to the TRC members to review that's something that we discuss at the TRC meeting whether whether or not it is applicable or not or why do they believe it's not you know it's not needed for the type of application that they have yeah most of those uh Nas if
they're significant items will list as a waiver request and make sure that by the time it gets to the board it's something um that's clearly uh indicated as a waiver basically when David and uh the
other professionals when we're working on this updated checklist it's I viewed it as what information is needed to understand the impacts of a project and their compliance with the ordinance um
standards the design standards uh and basically is the information that they're providing coming from either a recog recognized Source or from a recognized methodology
of of doing these things so that there's there's a a standard of care a standard of practice is met and that's an easy way of filtering out the bad information the uh the professionals who aren't doing something quite by standard
is we can point to the checklist so it's not just our opinion that hey this isn't good enough or this isn't enough information it's that no you're not meeting this checklist which is referring to the standard and outlining how things are supposed to be done so it's a tool to help the
professionals make sure the information's thorough enough for us and the board members does does um somebody from TC specifically acknowledge the N we reviewed the Nas and we agree with the
nas right instead of just signing off on the sheet it's just like a mitigating risk kind of thing it's it's discussed at the TRC meeting definitely whether or not um the staff would support that or not and if if the staff doesn't then we
have another TRC meeting and they submit that information and we'll review so so just by signing the sheet that all the Naas are agreed to and plus all the items that are checked we go over each one of those to make sure the staff is acknowledges that and supportive of
that request how is it ensured that a line item for an NA is not is not missed and skipped over by accident and you know agreed to someone initial each and each 100 each of the hundred items typically no I mean I'm trying to think
for like like the Chick-Fil-A application that took three TRC meetings before it was able to get in front of the board so it was viewed three times basically so it nothing pretty much got through on that I mean mistakes happened but I can't remember one where we um
where it was missed during all the TRC and then it came in front of the planning board and was missed during that review also yeah usually they'll be brought up in reports as completeness issues during the T TRC that this information's not uh provided and it's
missing and needs to be provided whether it's just information relating to uh a note on where a source of something is coming from or something more uh detailed like a design aspect of of maybe a summary
table of the landscape plantings or the tree removal count not just showing a wooded area and that it's all being cleared it's well how many trees are in there you know you got to get a detailed number for us so that we can verify these other design requirements are
being met with Replacements so it's really up to the Judgment of the experience of the professionals to know my my concern is there's 100 items on there you're going down you know are they numbered they're not numbered right so yeah one thing that you might not have seen is in
addition to these ordinances yeah because there's no reason though in addition to the ordinances what we've also prepared in concert with that are fancy new checklist forms right so actually if you go to the website right now you can download the checklist forms which are
scans of scans basically we have Rewritten those in a Microsoft Word format that will be able to put into a PDF that people will be able to kind of Mark and and in those forms you'll have the
item the requirement and then a check box for the applicant and check box for the township okay yeah that's what I'm looking for exactly yes I you can't see it from there probably that's what I was asking for I yes we currently have that now and we will when this eventually
gets introduced and adopted by the governing body um I just didn't want to confuse the issue by sending you you know two sheets for the S check hear you you know my background is in operational risk so I'm trying to mitigate risk and
so I don't want a 100 items looked that oh number seven which is not numbered number seven gets missed and then what happens is they come before the board and then we don't think about that item and then we don't bring it up and it's something relevant U bike racks in the
wrong place or bike racks at all or you know or charging station although we always bring up but you know get my point this will put all of those items and that ordinance in a coherent format so that way an applicant be able to pick it up they'll see a section for map details they'll see a section for sketch
plat a section for minor and then preliminary or final so and then checked by the applian checked by the township y That's what I was looking for I'm do Roman font 10 11 so it'll be there and the board members get that checklist whether it's a subdivision or a site plan depending
on the application before you in the packet that I send to each of you along with the staff reports okay so and they're all on the website too under the application on the planning board agenda so the public can look at those um prior to the application being
heard so I have a procedural question so you say they can ask for a waver right and then the TRC agrees that okay the waiver is you can go and ask for a waiver right but the waiver only the planning board has authority to Grant
the wer so when an application comes in shouldn't the planning board first talk about okay these waivers are granted or not granted because if at the end planning board doesn't Grant a waiver then all the three meetings before are worthless the typical way it's done is the
applicant makes a presentation in their presentation they list the design waivers and the checklist waiver so there's two different types of waivers so that's part of the application as they present it typically what Mike does then is after um the application
presented the applicant will go over each waiver request and why they think that waiver should be granted and Dave and Fran in their staff reports will list those waivers and then Jerry when we are getting ready to vote he will enumerate all those waiver requests in
the resolution and then basically i' I've known in the past um that the chair may say does anybody have any issues with any of the waivers let's talk about them before we go through everything else right and I'll also ask the professionals your opinion of the of W
and they'll say yeah yeah we support it it's fine and then we'll have our own opinions on whether it makes sense or I mean site plan weers I remember I never remember talking about viewers of the checklist no am I correct we sometimes
call those admin waivers admin uh yeah I think that yeah typically admin waiver or checklist waiver okay and then you have your design waivers which would be you know more site plan or subdivision oriented like grades or things like that but the yes exactly yeah my my only concern
about in general is that you're talking about a checklist and you're talking about the possibility of a waiver on an item on that checklist and if you and if you grant that then we never see
it we do not Grant we do not Grant W we never Grant waivers during the TRC process administrative process the board always grants the waivers and that's typically done at the end um and they're usually typically I would say minor waivers maybe okay maybe I'm using the
wrong word when I say waiver but what I'm saying like for instance I'm an applicant I come to the I come to the uh TRC DRC or I come to Township and I ask hey um this particular item I don't see
why I need to provide it I don't need to hire a professional to to do this whatever this is say an acoustic study for and you say F you don't have to okay now I come to the planning board meeting
I haven't done that because you told me I didn't have to now I come in front of the planning board it's not a it's not a waiver or anything it's just not there because it wasn't part of the it would
be waiver it would still be a waver it would still be a waiver and you as the board and this has not popped up yet but because this happens all the time but if there was say an application in front of the TRC and say hypothetically I'm just going to use an acoustical study that they request a waiver from or parking
count or something like that and they submit an application to the TRC we say okay we'll support the the waiver request and then it gets to you as a board and you as the board collectively decide absolutely not we want to see an acoustical study that is 100% within
your right to still request that study the meeting might need to get carried in order to do it but just because we would support a waiver request in TRC does not mean you as the board need to support that waiver because and who knows something might pop up during the middle of the hearing that we as the
professionals didn't think about um or something that you as the board members see that we didn't see so yeah or something that wasn't on the application and all of a sudden they submit it and whoops we forgot to show this to you guys so you as the board always request or always have that
opportunity to request something that additional information that the caveat is it needs to be something that's on that checklist item because right now say if you were to say if it was it a variance free application for a drive-through and you were worried about noise to the neighbors and you wanted to
know what the acoustical would be the applicant could say well this is a permitted use we're not going to provide that information to you at least with this checklist item we can have that authority to to say no this is a checklist item it's something that we need to see either request a waiver or provide it and if they didn't want to do
that the board has a legitimate reason to deny the application okay so okay now I'm kind of getting it in that if we don't put it on the checklist we're not getting it and if yes don't have it on the checklist
obviously we're not getting it and if there's a disagreement between the applicant and the township whether it's it's um professionals or whether it's the board then that's that's up for uh
um rejection of uh on a vote because of they they didn't provide that information yes thank you now in this that scenario could we still deny it based on it's not on
checklist but we feel like it's need and maybe they can argue or Sue that hey um I'm not going to do it because I don't have to but we can still deny it if we wanted to you could deny it and it would be litigated and it would go in
front of a judge and judge would make a decision okay you you don't require a noise study because it's not in your ordinance on your checklist but the board after hearing the application thought it was necessary the applicant can State well it's not on your checklist we're not going to submit it you didn't think it was important enough
the ordinance and put it on the checklist so no and then the board can say well we really need that that's a missing piece of information we're going to deny the application because you didn't submit something that wasn't on the checklist and then we pay Jerry a lot of money to defend that in court
yeah and that happens periodically where certainly now the checklist is not as substantial as it as it will be but it's something no one has thought about and it it really comes out of the how the project is engineered and landscaped
etc etc etc and I think I think we do have some Powers there I agree remember there have been some application in the past where they said that the conditional you know that this document needs to be submitted or this
needs to be provided and only then the approval will be given isn't that yeah we do that all the time yeah that's us I could bet you it was department of traffic study where some you know egress or Lane wasn't long it was a study
needed done on that it's always like waiting on some Department if I remember correctly wasn't necess as for a waiver of that document is when we got got into the me of the application something else may have been presented by the applicant during the public hearing that wasn't
brought to our attention at TRC for the traffic let's say and quasi is like well I heard new testimony and and most of the staff reports said subject new information presented at the public hearing quasi may say well you know I need you to update the traffic analysis
based upon X Y and Z and the board determines that that's something that it's techical and we'll leave that up to the staff to make sure that happens and we'll make it a condition of approval and then quasi will check it during what we call resolution compliance review afterwards yeah also environmental uh
studies also I think are subject to condition of approval based on waiting for it to come in because you know some insect is is affected so what I'll do is I'll just because we already talked about a lot of stuff already let me just go through some of
these issues um I'll skim over it so that way we can get some more questions and and save some more time for that but this was a memo that was dated February 25th um so starting off with some planning and legal questions uh regarding the S plan ordinance it was
page three item e uh this deals with the review of concept plans and there's a question about why there's no time frame for the review of a concept plan and the reason being is those time frames typically dictated by the municipal langes law so you'll hear Sam at the end of some hearings that it's getting
carried do you agree to extend the clock and the applicant will say yes we have a time frame to review certain types of applications and if we don't get it done in time and they don't accept it you have to deny it without prejudice or they get an automatic approval um for a concept blend there's no time frame so
there's really no reason to for the township to to buy themselves for that uh both the site plan ordinance and the subdivision ordinance uh have a new requirement regarding the provision of physical fiscal or socioeconomic information um that includes certain
information regarding population school kids potential tax revenue things like that that stemmed from a prior draft order to be prepared several years ago um that we kind of put on the back burner uh and it's just additional information especially in consideration
of the fourth route of affordable housing of getting some more information and some more insights onto what these developments mean for the rest of the community uh there is a question about whether or not the information that's provided in those documents can be used
to deny an application so for example number of school kids or or total population and the answer is no uh if you're a permitted use like that you certainly cannot deny an application based on the number of school kids uh same thing with traffic generation as
well um that was a similar question for both the cyan ordinance in the subdivision ordinance so again that requirement it's not required by the municipality not required by the municipal landies law typically towns have their own uh capability to identify what they want in those checklist
ordinances we just wanted to see in consideration of the fourth round of affordable housing coming up what some of the socioeconomic impacts of these developments might be but certainly would not be used as a mechanism to deny those applications and David uh uh I'm
I'm looking at page seven where a lot of that is set forth with with respect to school age children impact on the school district Etc and I think this is all good stuff but I but certainly it's going to pop out at somebody who's going to say exactly you said you can't do this you can't deny an application
because of this I think we should have something in here that says this will be this will not be used by by the planning board in terms of their review but it will be forwarded to the um school district for their school district
planning which is legitimate I mean just just to further your concern I mean my concern is if that information is in the packet and we deny it not for that for some other reason they will claim that you denied
it because of number of kids yeah and so we we want to be careful so at least I think we want to cover ourselves here to say we want this for a certain reason uh and it's legitimate because a school district should have this information they have to do planning as well and we
are going to forward it to them and and we would for forward it to them and one of the if I remember we don't get many General development plan applications but I think one of the checklist requirements for that is to provide that information for fysical studying to determine whether we need to hire more
police or more public Works folks or the plant more Parks or something because the number of of people or kids coming into the community so we have to take in consideration that and again you know the school district we work with them on any of the rezonings we do specifically
to affordable housing requirements so Dr aderhold is well aware from the minute our first application comes in and um you know we will'll share our affordable housing uh housing element fair share plan for this next next go around with them too so they're also prepared for
that yeah okay um moving on then to the engineering questions that were offered um there's a question regarding when the submitt of an environmental impact statement and green development practice
checklist um it's our understanding I talk to Fran last week we believe that's actually something that's supposed to be submitted for all development applications so the environmental impact statement and the green development practice checklist the ordinance in a different section that discusses the
environmental impact statement makes it clear for all development applications for the green development practice checklist it's not as clear but that's the impression that we got from looking at the ordinance um and just a followup on that whenever I've asked an applicant to fill
that the the green development practices checklist none of them have objected to it we haven't had anyone object to that or requ a waiver on that the next question was uh are lant bears required to have a New Jersey license and I did not know the answer to that prior to this and the answer is yes
they are uh there's a question regarding site plan ordinance on page 14 item F why is the item that's pertaining to existing ponds streams water courses and designated green belt and wetlands not included in a preliminary site PL
section um so that's something that's called out in one portion of the final site plan and not in that same section of the preliminary the reason being is there's already a section in the preliminary site plan ordinance that um requires those items and that's in item
3E and 3F so the preliminary site plan ordinance already requires that information so it was just duplica as to put it again so if someone's PL for a combined preliminary and final site plan they have to go through the preliminary checklist requirement where they would
catch that and then go through the final checklist requirements and and catch that so they'd fill out the checklist for both preliminary and final if it's a combined application y uh similar question for the cyan ordinance page 14 item F regarding the location of easement
rights of way in public areas uh there's a question about why those aren't included in the prary site PL section and the answer is they already are under items 3 C and 3s those items are already requested in that section uh for the subdivision ordinance page
three item three is there a specific date for the USGS which is the United States Geological Survey topographic quadrant map uh we believe that's somewhere back in the 70s the you'd be surprised that the federal government does not necessarily update those too often andless BR has an update yeah just
scrolling around on the website before the meeting they actually have updated uh Maps available for the two areas or the two maps that make up West Windor one being Princeton quad and one being the heightstown quad and there's a 2019
version of each and a 2023 version of each well I said corrected that so should all I'd say my suggestion would be put comma current edition because then then it'll be
timeless yeah yeah I I would have no problem with 2019 or more recent yeah we put most most recent um current edition most least they know that 2019
works you may want to put the specific uh Maps there too the one from Princeton the one from heightstown unless there other uh geological maps those would be the only two I think right those would be the only two that would overlap West Windor so if they're looking at Maps
they're looking at the wrong area can can you put current edition footnoted and a link to the website that always gets updated uh we could try to put in a link um most recently yeah I think can
you send me the link for that chance yeah we can throw in a link then because we have other links in the ordinance too so might as well because then the current edition you go to the footnote it'll always tell you what the current rule is and and all of these documents are on the website and typically when an
applicant is applying they'll have an attorney representing them usually it's attorney that knows our town so when they go on the website to download those documents they'll have that link there or that you know and it won't be from the 70s it'll be current current plus their professionals they hiring I mean
should know what the current you know yeah current dates are in the subdivision ordinance on page five item 17 uh that item had originally pertained to uh ads built rating plans and there's a question about what's replacing that and
the shorter answer is that item is not being replaced uh we had discussed that with Township staff and it's really not appropriate there because that information is already regulated in another section of the T order in section 200- 252 C1 and two typic
typically an asil grading plan is something you do at the completion of a project before certificate of occupancy gets done so to have that as a checklist requirement before an application is even being heard to approve the project
it's impossible to submit an asbill because the Project's not done right and there's already again as David said it's addressed in another section that we use for requiring that information as part of a certificate of occupancy
application so uh staff feels it's already adequately the town adequately protected in the location it's currently at it doesn't need to be part of this checklist uh the next item was also on the subdivision ordinance page seven
item nine that deals with the naming of streets uh I fought Sam on this one because I know how badly the board wants to name Novak Boulevard somewhere in Township I know I I'll take a bathroom not a Boulevard um the long and short answer of it is uh a couple reasons um one
applican typically don't have street names ready by the time of the application you'll just see Street a street B Street c that information usually gets figured out later and historically the township engineer Mr gzik has worked uh with emergency services to make sure that there's no
conflicts with the naming of those streets yeah we also work with the Princeton post office because we do have uh 08540 ZIP code so we have to check over in Princeton uh municipality with them
to make sure that there's no conflict with the the coverage with the two municipalities and while I made a joke about my name I think there is a Township policy not to name streets after people right except CTI except for C yes we call sway at the office though
seriously I do think there is an ordinance that was adopted in the late 80s or early 90s that says that developers cannot use Township employee names because for a while they they were using that so so oh no way really yeah they were so some of the subdivisions are prior Municipal Employees yeah who
who's the employee was named Marvel I do not know probably one of the ex- Mayors in town could be yeah often what happens when you name something after a person you find out 50 years later that the person was a monster so it's it's it's a
smart uh smart methodology um uh moving on subdivision ordinance page eight item 17 there's a requirement for environmental impact statement uh there's a question about why that was deleted uh I will call that an overaggressive deletion on my end I
think I got a little trigger happy when I was selecting other texts so that'll be corrected and added back in so that's not being eliminated that was typo uh subdivision ordinance page 13 item 12 this chapter 143 to be amended
that deals with uh uh Soil Conservation uh at a discussion with bran and typically that information is handled by the Mercer County Soil Conservation District so right now there's really we don't see that much of a reason to update chapter
143 uh Mercer County solil Conservation District takes care of that for us yeah what happened too I was explaining to David that uh at the time that [Music]
was standards refer to the County Conservation District some towns West Windsor being one hopal Township being another decided that they wanted to control that inhouse and not defer to an outside agency so originally chapter 143
was where those standards were detailed in addition to what's currently in chapter 143 at some point in time before my tenure with the township um that was done away with and those standards uh were deferred to the
County Conservation District and chapter 143 was revised to remove those from there so this is a checklist section that was overlooked at the time that chapter 143 was revised this checklist requirement should have been changed to
eliminate the reference to it so it's it's a late change okay um sticking with the subdivision ordinance page 13 item 15 uh there was a question as to when the number of replacement trees would be determined for an application and that
would be typically be be determined during the application process so during the review of it uh moving on to traffic engineering questions quasi I apologize in advance as I try to pretend I know anything about traffic um there was the first question was was regarding the San
ordinance on page nine item 15 how is the extent of a traffic impact state determined and who typically determines it so to answer the second question the study area of a traffic impact study is typically determined by the applicant's traffic engineer but there are certain
industry standards they need to follow um the study area should be extended to adjacent intersections or roadways which will carry the generated trips to and from the proposed project site a minimum of one and up to three signalized intersections along adjacent roadways uh
adjacent to the site should typically be included for any small or mediumsized development and for a larger development study area would be significantly higher to account for access to Major thoroughfare and freeways the assess the regional impact so
there there are industry standards that would determine what the extent of that traffic impact statement is uh a related question was is there any wording that could be considered regarding truck traffic generation which may affect the residential area but may not be in the immediate area of that development but
could be impacted by it I discussed that with quasi um it was our understanding that there's really no language that you can put into that study because that would violate typical industry standards but what the township could consider in
that checklist item is requirement for applicants to provide data on truck traffic volume a truck traffic circulation plan and the impact of truck traffic traffic movement on adjacent public roadways originating from the public uh from the project site so that would get you some additional
information on truck traffic volumes and generation and circulation patterns should you be interested in seeing that in an application and then finally when is the requirement for a traffic impact study determined that would be determined like we said earlier during the TRC review
process quasi brought up the uh trips generated as a typical threshold it would still be vetted during that TRC process as well and typically when a traffic study does come in for TRC inevitably quasi is
asking for additional information so it kicks it back to a second TRC meeting not only for what quasi is looking for but bran may have some um changes that or he's looking for in the civil engineering uh package that was submitted with that so I I don't
remember any major application getting through TRC without two or three meetings at least before it comes to the planning board sorry sometimes they even changed the orientation for example the Chick-fil-A they used to have it on the South Side they completely reversed it
Mirage and then took it to the nor Northern side that's one of the reasons they had to go through three trc's to be clear just a a little bit too typically if it's a new application coming in um I can't require but I'll strongly
recommend that an applicant submit a concept plan to TRC so we can take a look at it before they fully engineer out their site plan because they're more apt to make changes based upon staff comments if it's a concept plan rather than them submitting a fully engineer
plan in so like for Chick-fil-A or for really any of the projects that the board sees typically it's a concept plan that may take one two or three TRC meetings before they submit a fully engineered plan to TRC to review that and that may take a meeting or two
before it comes to the planning board so it's vetted quite extensively before the board gets it and then finally there was a couple questions regarding landscape architectural stuff um some of these recommendations came from Dan um I did consult with Ed Nik as my office though
to see if he had any issue with them they were both on the same page so no P attended for example on the site plan ordinance page seven item d there is a requirement regarding superimposing and why that's being deleted and that was recommended because that's already a
requirement in section 200-3 C2 so it's covered somewhere else we're trying to remove those duplications um the same thing with site photographs that item is already required in section-3 C2 uh there's a question in the site
plan ordinance on page eight item F why eliminate the language for the effective height of a proposed firm or fence so again that effective height of a proposed fmer fence and in discussing that with Dan it was determined that it wasn't really appropriate to limit a
landscape buffer language based on effective height only but rather the overall effectiveness of the buffer in the fence so you didn't want to just look at the height you wanted to look at the totality of that buffer so that's why we took out the language regarding effective height and try to get it more related to what's the overall
effectiveness and that can be related to both height width and density of planting [Music] uh site plan ordinance page 12 item e wise requirement regarding a Landscape Management and maintenance schedule agreement being deleted it's being deleted because it's already established
in item five later in the ordinance for final landscape plans so that's already there so again just removing some duplication and then finally on page 11 item e uh why is there a mention of a planting schedule but not a maintenance schedule and that's because it's already required in paragraph five in the prior
page so some of those changes that were made were really just to remove duplication uh some items were actually almost repeated fatum so we tried to clean that up the best we could so those were the preliminary questions that we got from the council however obviously you can open it up to additional
questions from the board from Council as well and you know take it one by one any anybody else bran quy Sam anything to add sir no okay planning board colleagues um one
General U comment for both checklists um where the word certified or licensed comes up um I'd like all possibilities of that looked at if the
word with capital S State should be prior to it that a person is a state licensed whatever is or state I think that was related to surveyor as well it did come up for surveyor but I think for any any
professional yes I don't know if we have have to say New Jersey state because because I mean it is our local our our thing I mean counsel you guys can do what you want but I just say get the word state in there I I would have state of New Jersey or New Jersey state I
would because because I always ask are you licensed in New Jersey is your licensed current yeah professional planners are Li required to have a national license as well as a state license were the only one of two states that require that does anybody know the other
state I forget I was hoping so know the other state that was a question on the plan Tennessee I'll look it up after this um but yes we'll make sure to specify yeah the certified or licensed comes yes yeah and both check okay thank
you just in addition to piing um there a couple references to recent assertion original language said sometimes the last six months uh yeah so for sometimes like
like for example the the US uh USGS information we'll put in most recent only because sometimes it gets updated but it's maybe once every 10 20 30 years um so sometimes putting a date on it can be a little bit difficult but we can try
to yeah every memo that I prepare is using oral photography right now from 2020 because the state has an identity yet um but yeah we can put in language regarding more oh yeah I think it's a place popped up some of the other comments too so we
can add that in anybody else M um I was curious what you had said about the height of the fence in the BM and you went into some significant detail there about width and height coverage you know coverage and
how it looks and stuff like that um actually um um is that then is that kind of wording GNA then be in that checklist somewhere no just like on the side somewhere for people to understand what
uh why it is that way I we want to put too many words on it to Define it right we want to allow the landscape architect to determine what he or she thinks is an effective buffer as opposed to restricting it just to height right but there are specific regulations in our
site plan design standards and our subdivision design standards that talk about what needs to go into that buffer so replicating that in checklist ordinance I don't think is 100% necessary it's just removing that reference to height because it's not just height that's discussed in the site
planner subdivision design standards its overall effectiveness I think the Restriction I think right I think there's a height restriction on fences there's a highight there's a high restriction on fences but I think the part of the problem too was that when people look at this requirement they
would specifically Focus take it too literally that they were looking at the effective height of the um physical BM or the physical fence and not including the planting material on it so I think this language is intended to take the
entirety of the proposed buffer the the physical material plus the plantings as well the combined combination of the two I I I think I recall an application where we uh required the applicant to increase
the height of the fence from like six to eight feet or8 to 10 feet I remember that I don't remember where it was a couple years yeah could have been so we're always conscious of the height regardless of whether it states
it or not so a a language question yes site plan checklist item three uh parenthetical G page five page five tell me if when you get there it was item G you said uh
three G on page five of the site plan checklist I am there l i d a r what is that lar lar information it's still it's it's foreign language to me what what are we talking about here oh oh uh lar information is
basically uh I'm not the best at explaining this but it's basically a laser that's bounced off of the ground in order to get topography so um yes it's like a light based radar that's utilized overhead to determine
what the Topography of a site is so it's a common phrase in engineering worlds thank you that's a whole fight between Vio and Tesla whether the you need that or not for Auto driving I just did I just stumbled on it I have no idea
what it was thank you anything else okay um I'll ask the public to step up and um state your name and address for the record uh and um let's see what you have to
say um I'm off to the recreation commission meeting right after this so um Dan Weiss 15 can Brook Drive council member here want to um go back to this notion of including an estimate for
school children in this um I think that's a little can be Troublesome as of some of the conversations we had that it's not something that's anybody is using to make a decision on it's just kind of peripheral information and I think it adds risk that it could be used
against us in the event that application for another reason that um on sort of the other side of that coin is um what's the basis of somebody coming up with that number and would we
like the uh the developer to to or the applicant to bring up that number I would think that our own School administration is probably the best people to answer based on you know Decades of their knowledge of how development
impacts um School page and so if there's no real formula or basis that the applican can use to do that the value seems to be just not very useful L we give them maybe a say just spitball for
every one bedroom apartment X number of children two bedroom some fashion of that model but again if we're not using that information to make a decision is it going need I mean I I
have the same concern that if if it goes to court it will be used against us and there are numbers like rgas has done a study and published a number that Statewide but they are worthless because uh because they don't apply to West Wier
like there number West Winter does have more updated numbers though that are specific Afric could number out of the air it's not going to be used for anything what value is it for them to try to figure it out I will say this it's something that's absolutely not required in a
checklist ordinance so there is concern about it more I I I have to say I I think it's a point that's very well taken yes as well as the mayor's concerned that if we're if we're not going to the data might not be very good probably won't won't be we're going to
have a qualification that says we're not going to use it is we're just going to pass it off um but so there is a challenge if they're not happy with the result um of a decision by the board they very well can say judge they asked us to provide all
this information uh I think you can make a reasonable assumption they had in the back of their minds at the very least that when they were making a decision so I would be comfortable taking it out and I think that's probably a better approach and and I'm actually even thinking of another
scenario where they can submit information and there could be a disagreement of know action it I'm also kind of inclined to take that out as well yeah I I think it's a I think it's a good thought David yeah I mean the school district has numbers we
can pretty much tell based on apartments Town Homes homes roughly how many kids will be generated the school district does have number for West Wind in different number for cbor so and when we worked on the round three for affordable housing we worked with Dr aderhold and
in the school board demographer and so when we were looking at rezoning properties determining what type of housing type was on there the school district was able to determine how many kids that property would produce so they could plan for the future so the school
district's aware of it well ahead of an application coming in or in the case of a housing element before the ordinances are adopted that to reone a particular property yeah to remove it now I'm just curious uh uh from historical
perspective um is the school district still using Stan cats's uh no no they St or they have updated stuff no they did another study after that they have done yeah they did but see again like Woodmont and Princeton Chase
both are apartment complexes but the ratio is vastly different it's like two or three times more in Princeton Chase compared to Woodmont now you can say that it's far off from school district I don't know the reason but even within Township
the variation is great so they so they've updated yeah so we just average out and assume five they indicated that their developments typically don't have a lot of school kids because it's a higher end type of Rental Community and actually
had asked me to check with the school district Dr outer hole to determine how many kids were coming out of the wood by the um uh Market Fair and how many kids were coming out of an older uh apartment complex across from the Windsor athletic
um Club over there and it was something like it was 400 and some units over at the Avalon or over at the um atantic reality and it was more than 400 kids coming from that development but if if you went over and it was a similar size
development for Woodmont I mean it was less than a 100 it was a lot different and they were and they were both ging departments similar sizes but one is a higher end and it's a higher rent in there for that that's good to know than let me ask question how I I agree with
all the points about taking it out makes sense how does the school district determine or find out about new developments and that the possibility of generating School children typically any new we we haven't
had a a single family subdivision come in in in in 10 15 years um with that being said yeah all the new development is highdensity residential and it's and it's it comes in because of the affordable housing requirements so we
work with the school district ahead of time once we determine what our number is uh how many affordable units and then we're able to work with them and they their demographer to determine how many school kids that's going to produce you let them know about any new developments how many units so what type of unit and
they come up with okay that's going to generate X number of kids correct and that's the reason why the school district was able to um anticipate the round three numbers of school kids that would come in because they had that number well in advance of the
subdivisions even coming in front of the planning board so they were able to do their Capital plan and and you know go out and actually have that those additions put on the schools well in advance the kids coming into the district Sam going one step further even
that you let them know when Jason is about to issue cosos that's far more important too so even the developments that they were aware of was going to happen the crystal ball sometimes isn't is a little cloudy on when cosos are going to be issued and when people are going to move in so um
as I as I said during the budget hearing today um my office is the first office that gets any Co requests for a commercial or a residential certificate of occupancy which which you need to get that before somebody can move in or before a business opens so I'll give Dr
adle the call and let them know that you know Co is going to start coming out for the Avalon project so you should be aware you know make sure the bus route's in in play so the new residents know where the kids could go and that new development to be picked up and so forth so they're I'll give them Advan warning
or any cosos are issued residential wise okay thanks and before Linda goes I say any change okay you got Linda G 20 haor Drive council member you I I had Pages a lot of questions much of it's been
already answered so I'm not going to go over everything you got the typos everything tyos to questions about that whole school board section and all of that so um I I agree with the board seems like the majority of the board at least um would want to take that section
out I think that was going to be problematic but I mean once you ask for that information I would assume would would not want to pay for all these studies they just go to the school district and ask them for their demographic studies um and the latest
ones that they have I believe are on the uh School District's website anyway uh and once you put these thoughts into someone's head people are are sitting out here and board members it's hard not to kind of use that information in the back of your
head about the fiscal impacts that are coming in um so I agree just we'll take that out yeah it would have been it's it it sounded good in concept but the more we talk it out I agree with everybody it's not a good idea right right um on
on the issue of uh Township engineer whoever present future what you know being um that the names names the street names and all because many of you were on the board when we there was an application that came in on Old Trenton
Road and and U maybe the development name is nice but then when we started looking at the street names that night because we discussed that um it it seems as if maybe some people retire ing from
uh you know the company and they wanted to honor them by having a street named after them and I we we just I of um I believe said no to what they had I guess presented at some point I think
ultimately we did give um uh Township engineer Francis uh you know the authority to kind of get final final approval but they had to come back with some different things so I'm saying I would want to know they may not know at the T PRC
level uh but I would not known the planning board when we get um you know the site plans be able to look at the names just to Linda I mean I can tell you based on my experience with Avalon there was lot
of going back and forth because fire companies kept objecting this company kept objecting he has to coordinate a lot and that itself took a long time to finalize the street name the planning board doesn't have all the information
so once they decide the names they can inform the planning board but don't don't make that decision at the planning board they have way too many books who have to approve the recipe before it becomes final I know I know but I would want it to go with a theme the theme is
um I mean like flowers you know all sort of flowers or it's on trees or something something else I would like to see some consistency and um perhaps not no I mean planning of managers at at development
compan yeah that kind of I'm looking at section 2-56 which is Street sidewalks and Alleyways and and under street names um there might be some massaging that could be done in that section to avoid that I I know it's Township policy not to name it after people do you know if
that's actually codified or this was back in turn it back in the early 90s when that came in Ray Raider was on the C the committee at the time be before before the change in for of government and it definitely went into play and it was an ordinance that said
that it's not in the land use section of the code I don't know what codified section of the Township Code it's in but I I do remember that going in so maybe that's something if we're wor about names that's something I with Sam and massage that section consistency the the development made
streets would flow it's a nice theme um thing was about traffic studies um because I think I'm concerned about when large developments come in could be commercial we we've seen things
come in the trucks and there's a lot of concern that half a mile mile down the road residential sections and the impact to them some of these very large developments can have have um somehow
negative impacts so uh at the TRC level can you expand the traffic studies to to include those kind of impacts when it's a very large development let's say for example Bridgetown one of them it's the
the storage facility the first thing in traffic study what we look at is whether or not study area if it is we flag it right away that you miss that intersection you need to include that you meet Miss that roadway
or a highway you need to include that into the yes I think you had recommended or suggested that there could be some language put in there regarding truck traffic volume truck traffic circulation plan right we add that as a requirement in the checklist ordinance too it it
sounds like right yeah that that's the response that we have it on 15 on the traffic engineering questions number 15 that's but but again we cannot have to
a that is not required with the industry do we have to follow the industry standards all the time ex otherwise if it doesn't follow they they're not going to be libl for any compliance so I cannot request them
something which is not required by the industry but adding that truck language at least provides us some some additional information yeah for example if if it is a storage facility the primary trip generation will be trucks so we can definitely ask for the truck traffic numbers and how uh the
circulation plan how they plan and and what are the different hours of operation we can definitely ask that yes I want to go back a sec to Linda's comment about the names I've already
seen at uh the Avalon development there there already is now a sign that says Nash drive or something like that which they wouldn't have put the sign up if it hadn't been approved um yet uh John John
Nash was a uh West wior resident we already have Nash Park you know near the uh the shopping center um so in in a case like John Nash well but so that's where I wanted to know how
strict are we going to be on person names especially if let's say some historical research digs up uh a a historical figure in West Windsor there's a new development in the area where they might have have lived lived
and had their livelihood um that might be worthy of a street name perhaps so that's why I'm wondering okay well I know but but I don't wonder how strict are we gonna be on person names with what Linda has said in what
I've just said can you take take that Dave resp I I can because I usually don't get involved with naming of streets um so I don't really know the thought process that goes behind what gets identified with what street name um I don't know about what ordinance
happened in the like you say n you want to honor someone who yeah yeah done some significant work yeah yeah washing often times for someone you know who's contributed a lot to the township I'm
just no I I understand the dynamic what you were addressing I just um I don't want to I don't want to close the door yeah that's what I'm saying I don't want to close the door yeah yeah you you'd rather have that name linked to if it's going to be named after somebody somebody linked to West Windsor history
hopefully in a positive way um as opposed to just the name of a developer or the name of whoever was the richest guy to buy that name um yeah typically you know I think the planning board hasn't or the Zony board typically hasn't gotten
involved in that from what I understand it might be worthwhile for the township to consider additional guidance in the site plan of division standards to guide that but um I don't even know if it should be in Addus that the subdivision and site plan standard pertain to
planning board or zoning board applications the naming of streets has nothing to do with either of those boards if you want to have some regulation on it there should be a should be another section of the existing code or a new code to address that I think you're opening a major can of worms if you kind of start
scrutinizing names because there's you're going to be able to find something on every Poss POS name oh that's so and so's brother-in-law's cousin's Uncle you know you know so they name it it goes before the committee is this an acceptable name or does it have
some you know crude meaning in another language that we don't want it in the town that kind of thing but I don't know if you could like you know like a Nash drive an Einstein way a Harrison a Hamilton you know to in this point the
historical figures yeah is uh isn't that a function of Township Council now they choose the name or who choose no as we heard the developer will submit the name to the engineering department the engineering
department will coordinate with both post office both towns and with Emergency Services the police to make sure there's no similar sounding streets in either Princeton or West Windsor and um that's all that they're looking to do
to make sure for emergency services reasons and for postal delivery reasons there's not going to be an issue with the fire department the police or the post office delivering them there engineering department then is the responsible party then not the developer
correct okay yeah it's uh there's section 200- 56 under streets sidewalks and alleys there's a subsection L for street names and there's several different um design requ requirements
for street names but basically street names subdivision names Shall Not Duplicate or nearly duplicate the names of existing streets or something goes to what I was saying like office endings of proper street name
should types of streets freway uh you want some common sense there and it requires the developer to submit proposed names to Community Development so that what engineering
does those and circulates them to all the different agencies to look for conflicts I I I just bring up a point in Princeton for example um Princeton has Elm Road Princeton has Elm Court oh and the Princeton University decided to name
its name Main Road in its campus Elm Drive so there's three Elms in Princeton and it can get confusing at times and I would just I just wonder what P university has done with their
Lake Campus in terms of the naming of their roads in there uh were those approved by the engineering department I'd have to check on that honestly I always laugh a major a major way in Bucks County is called
explain this to me Street [Laughter] Road I've been the uh let called Street Road figure I've been the pl I've been the pl consultant I've been the pl consultant
for Rockway Township now in Morris County for 14 years they have a Mount Hope Road and a Mount Hope a I still get them confused to this day you're probably not the only one no no no out of bridge was actually that said about TR demand from the applicant
what the um you know more than industry standards might be but you know I mean I'm just trying to think that say parking or for lighting we do as we have different standards compared to what um you know rsis or even so um
you think about the traffic differently uh yeah the traffic uh what the the qu the issue in question is the truck so that's in order to address that issue we that's why we are adding some languages
so in that way even though it's not required by the standard it is kind of like an added requirement speak like Township requirement that's why we are adding that language which will not violate because
I I don't want them the applicant to think that oh it's no nobody in no other Township asked for it and it's not required by Duty or or other uh state agencies or federal agency why you asking it you you see what I'm saying
because they they will definitely question that in the TRC meetings that it's not required anywhere why are you asking it so but again in order to address that issue the truck issue we are we are adding some additional language that we are adding we are
asking for them to provide the track traffic data and the traffic C Tru traffic circulation plan that will pretty much address the concern so we yeah how justify them for
you know um how justify having standards parking or lighting I can answer the parking one um I maybe even the lighting one but bran will correct me when I get it wrong um for parking the residential site Improvement
standards establish maximum parking standard right so for C types of residential unit residential products they establish a maximum but they say that the municipality or the reviewer which is us can lower those standards based on surrounding environmental
factors so maybe public you know Community factors uh location to mixed use environments location of public transit so the ability to reduce that is already baked into the residential site Improvement standards uh for something like lighting and in full disclosure
I've never seen an application in any Town not have to request the waiver for lighting for whatever reason um those are Township ordinance specific standards so we as a municipality have the ability to Grant a waiver from that as opposed to something that's more
industry-based um which is more of a uniform approach but for a for example like lighting that's one of the powers that we have as a board is to grant that waiver from that request because sometimes maybe a
0. five average isn't the best if you're trying to provide additional lighting for Public Safety or if you're near a neighbor maybe you want that reduced even more there's a little bit more flexibility with that and in addition to David what just David said even though
we add those language into a requirement they they can always ask for waiver our track our project will not generate this many of tracks so there's no need to provide this information they can always ask for it so if they do then if based
on Case by case we'll have to approve it debate that you know when applications come in and we're not really sure is this lighting enough or is this parking enough or is it too much you so you're sort of trying to find the standard which works for our Township and then usually you're looking to
Industry standards or you know you're not expert here you know so and the other so we we look to you folks to of guide us and and I'm sorry and answer to one of the aspects of answering your question would be all these parking
lighting it is in inside it doesn't go outside the site project side when I but when I ask for traffic circulation it does include the public roadways the intersections the our surrounding area so that's not included into typically
into industry standards it goes into the public right away so that's why I cannot ask them for or force them to submit something which is not actually required by the state or federal agencies so that's one of the reasons
the parking lighting everything is inside on on site they don't go into the outside the project area so we can ask any any variance or any waiver we can put any language but once it goes outside the project side that becomes
more like a public so we cannot force them to do something which is not required by the industry about how does how do we arrive at what's the appropriate you know um for that application based on what
standards say and you know what you folks are um so subject debate quite and that yeah that popped up with the last application too with be Creek um in terms of parking requirements
uh the everything is always application specific right so for parking requirements we have an array of different parking requirements B Bas on zoning districts I think our lowest one is probably for the 400 steps application is one parking space per
unit uh other areas we hold people to the residential site Improvement standard requirement 1.8 to 2.1 for Garden Apartments don't ask me how I memorize that um different standards for different types of unit products so when those applications come in we're looking at typically what the residential site
standards would require what our ordinance standards require and then always what they're providing and sometimes those applicants will have their own Industries not to use that phrase again but they'll have their own experience on what their parking needs are going to be based on other products that they built uh that popped up for
the Chick-fil-A for example so our ordinance specifies a certain parking requirement for fast food in general they as chickfila said hey we have this many other establishments in operation based on that this is the information that we know that we typically require
for parking so we try to create a a standard for our parking requirements but there's often a lot of either site specific factors or um we'll call the Market factors that play into account too so we have to look at that and then
B basically make a judgment call to say whether or not that's reasonable or no we're not really buying that because of X Y and Z or yes we buy that but as a condition of approval please Bank certain spaces so that way if it turns out that you're on the lower end of that
requirement you're not having an unus parking area so at least when it comes to something like parking it's really a balancing act of what do we require what do we typically see in the state what are some general standards that say The Institute of Transportation Engineers
might find because they have certain standards that they look at throughout the country and then what does the specific end user find with their Market product and we look at those four factors and we see based on that how far apart they are how reason reasonable
they are and if they're really far apart what's going to be the negative impact of that what's the substantial detriment to the public good um are they providing too much parking is that leading to an increase in impervious coverage and if they need a varage from that then we start to get an inclination of hey something here might not necessarily be
right there's no black it's a it I tell everybody with this job it's like I'm juggling but I'm juggling knives and nobody ever taught me how to juggle so it's you kind of figure it out as you go along but uh working with the other experts is always
a big help with that because they have their own insights their own expertise uh and by combining all that experience together you get a a pretty decent product thank you okay anybody else okay
okay um Andrea Mandel 46 Ellsworth Drive um um I don't know which Ellsworth name after and I've lived there is there more than one excuse me I didn't know there was more than one El worth uh I assume it's a
family a whole history and I'm there kind of over Dr anyway a lot of names of streets that are named after various people um I'm the council president in West Windsor and I've also as everybody knows been on
the planning board with all of you interesting life probably thinking probably when what did something like 75 planning board meetings over the various years I've been on it and I don't remember ever not having a waiver for
parking for application and just totally off topic of course um our our ordinance generally requires an exact number of 27.3 parking spaces I think we are allowed to round one way or the other
and um maybe if that if that's an issue and we don't want to do that waiver I've always wondered if we should have a little bit of a range so that we don't need to but that that's a totally other issue in our I don't hate that Che yeah I don't hate that idea at all for parking or for lighting sometimes still
but yes yeah lighting is another whole whole thing I want to thank everybody for that whole discussion on the waivers because I think a lot of my questions involved how do these waivers work I still have an issue which I don't think was brought
up in that we talk about a complete application and as Dave went into the history now a complete once an application is complete uh meaning that you've accepted it in as a complete application which I assume also means
everything in the checklist has been check checked off and that's what makes it a complete application um once that happens that application is now in stone and the clock starts running and everything we do has to be uh based on that plus
asking for anything additional after that becomes difficult so I'm a little concerned where it exactly how that waiver process works for instance Suppose there the TRC says yeah I think they'll do the waiver at the planning board the planning board goes looks at
it and says there's no way we're not going to do this waiver that doesn't restart the clock as far as I know uh I believe that unless you actually rejecting the application outright if you're not giving that particular waiver and there are times when we have
projected a waiver on a sign or something here and there and the project went ahead um if you are with the clock is still running so um I would like to see a little bit better definition of
exactly in here of what it takes to say that something needs a waiver um but doesn't um and and obviously you can't give the waiver but you're going to consider that application complete any whether that
has to be signed off by a particular officer perhaps um the ah head of engineering or perhaps a couple of people um I'd like to see something a little bit more ctive other than the way this is written right now it's well you have the right you can go to the
planning board and ask for a waiver I don't want a situation where somebody comes in doesn't fill out anything on this whole checklist basically says I'm going to ask for a lot of waivers and then comes into the meeting and and says the clock's table do something with
it yeah I think unless unless they believe a waer is warranted they won't deem the application complete so your concern just take a extreme case they won't submit anything and say I'm asking waer for all 50 items on there Sam won't
deem the application complete so if there's going to be a court case the court case will be whether the application is deemed complete or not the application is deemed complete only when they as a TRC feel comfortable that the waer request is Justified and they
can support it to the planning board it's very likely that the planning board will still say no that's the question I asked before that what happens if the planning word says no the applicant can say hey heck I'm not going to thing is
keep in mind there's two different types of waivers there's a design waiver and there's a checklist waiver so if the board denies a sign waiver that's not going to start to clock over again or anything on that one now I don't ever remember the planning board not going
along with the staff on a waiver request for a checklist requirement anything is possible on that but I guess my question to Jerry a little bit way this was written I felt sort of said well uh you could you know we're accepting this and you can go to the planning board I I
would just like it a little bit more in stone I could I could tell you that if someone an app came before the board and had 20 items for waivers first thing I would do it I would ask the professionals you know what do you think of why they ask for 20 waivers it
doesn't seem logical that they didn't get signed off by the professionals prior to coming here and maybe the professionals would agree with 19 and maybe there's one left over but if the professionals didn't agree with 20 then you know the meeting End early if the if
the staff during TRC doesn't agree with all the checklist um waivers it will never make it to the planning right so um I'm just looking at the way this was written and by the way one of the problems I think we had is that when we got this document which I usually don't
print out except they coming um a lot of stuff is missing so like some of the things you said in other words we go to section three and all we got was D but the change was with we didn't get the document we got didn't have a ABC or anything like that it so when you when
you say to me oh this isn't another place in the document we never the council never actually got the full document well this this is the full document we only changed portions of the the only thing we saw were the places where that would change otherwise
it would have been a like a 50 page okay it's a it's a PDF so I don't I I would rather see the whole thing and then see where the changes are made in the in the document well that's what we did we we identified those changes but to reference the ordinance online I mean we can add the whole thing it's just going
to take a very long time to well I mean you had to take it out in order to do this yes say rather than take it out um I think I would want to see you you had to go through there and say I'm only putting in this stuff that I'm changing rather than go through that effort I'd
rather see what else is in that ordinance so that I can know like when when you made that change uh and you're saying for some of these things it's some where else in the ordinance well I don't know Andrea we could do that when we send it to council for introduction yeah right now I don't know if it actually said the same thing or if it's
like other language Andrea after tonight they will send you the final draft ordinance then you can decide when you want to interview mean I'd actually like to see the two checklist did you guys also get the you didn't get the form too no actually I was gonna I just sent I just sent you yeah because the form has
decided to be nice and not ask for well the reason I didn't do it on the ordinance is because the form had everything on there so you'd be able to follow the form and see right I what I was going to ask for from you was do you have a check list that reflects what's here and that way I'd have a much I
could compare it to the current checklist and that would mean more to me than yeah so I can either amend the ordinance to include everything or when we send it over have those checklists included because those checklist will have everything on there what we can do
is we can amend the ordinance and show the whole ordinance and then that's what'll get introduced but I'll also send over the checklist too so that coin time to do if the council wants that and that's what it's gonna I I because of the word format I
have to replicate everything so but it's fine but it's just it's not gonna be done the future if we could see the full ordinance where it goes um just talking about the one I'm talking here it says waiver of information it says no application for de development shall be
deemed complete unless the items information and documentation listed in the applicable checklists are submitted that's what you're removing no that's what we're adding under added text is underlined and text being limited to struck throw so right now there's no language in the
ordinance that says oh I'm sorry yes okay that's being that's being there board May wave submission David why don't you send her the complete ordinance after the meeting and then there's no I mean she can decide whenever she wants to introduce it so we
can if if she's not happy we can move there's no need to work on the language here this is for technical questions is Dave gon to come to our meeting is is he going to come to our introduction meeting which meeting I when we
introduce this I didn't hear you I said no no no but you can ask before well this is my chance to yeah yeah yeah you can ask technical questions but language smiting you can do at your own Leisure um no this is this is yeah no no
no ask ask any technical question that's what this is for okay one problem I have on the concept plan uh you've removed the whole thing about the location can you can you can you tell the page number and stuff so uh I'm this is a change document my changes
so I have on three I don't know if I'm following along it's you're talking about page three 200-2 where it says sketch concept plan under a the first one is number one yes okay so you've um you're taking out there the location is
property um the location of the property is being removed there you've got that in Brackets believe can I see your thought that's not too good it still in there no that's still yeah that's still in there
yep that that's that that information is still going to be in there so anything that's underlined is added text anything that's struck through is deleted so one through seven is going to be included yeah so a lot of that information is remaining the same we just I just took it out of a paragraph format because I
thought that was really difficult to to read and putting it in a um non paragraph format other if you would got a list that's thank you actually is that in there uh that might not be in there that's why I looking
at yeah okay so you added showing its connection within the M okay yeah yeah okay are M those are your edits yes but the red text underneath that is in there yes yes so these are these are these are
things those are your proposed additions yes okay I seen uh oh you had you never saw this I don't think so no I saw a bunch yeah actually you know what hold on I I might have spoken too soon I'm sorry okay that's the S plan one um so the number one where I had where you had the
location of the property is shown connecting with in the map surrounding area I did add that yes so in the new draft that's going to be added that will be put yes I I'm sorry I did see that so okay and then on I also added a seven and eight under that proposed storm water infrastructure and potential environmentally restricted areas yes I I
will add that is critical when I've seen seen these concept drawings that's not in there and the final thing comes back totally different totally agree because the storm water changes the entire design and when I mentioned to Linda that when we resubmit this I'm gonna have make sure you have a color printer
because I have the red which is what we're changing the ordinance and also what we're adding is a dark red and a light red I know we I gota I gotta figure out how to change the dark red but we will change that to like a blue or something so it'll be easier to stand out should be around 86 uh after T is a
u which you added I think a u that's in a blue um um I wanted to make sure that we have a map showing the project and its connection to the surrounding area so that was on which page I'm sorry that would be um that would be six uh should
be probably still on page six you it could be on the next page the property relationship with ring area yes yep that be incorporated in there too all right I had another change but we're taking that whole section out where we're asking them to do that whole thing that's going to be all removed yes
yeah I know L Linder I want to give Linder credit she's been questioning about that since since the uh day day she got this I uh I I I am a convert to that so I agree should be re took out this which I always like
having in there the superimpose that's on my page eight it's a d in an e yes that is actually I think elsewhere in the ordinance so that's why we took that one out okay and that one is somewhere that probably just don't have it in this and I actually be I got to
check the reference number I don't think that's actually in the requirement that's somewhere else within the ordinance that requires that that's uh superimposed that like a may be the site plan like a separate ordinance for what's on the site plan or something it's 200 because that's another whole
large what has to be included with that yeah 23 C2 uh which is an aerial photo superimposing the plans with tack boundaries so that is in the uh preliminary requirements already that I think everybody's always found pretty useful oh yeah very much
so we' had a whole talk about the traffic study which I did have some questions on Where the study area and some of the guidelines you were talking about I think we have gotten for we have gotten submissions that didn't have that kind of extent so is there a way that we
can make um be a little bit more specific as to the size of the um of the uh area for the traffic study I yeah thank you but I don't determine that it's a traffic engineer for applicant
who determines I can conquer with it or I can object it or I can ask him to expand it so you can't put it on as a requirement you can object for specific reasons at that no absolutely no okay it's sort of like the hen house
being guarded by the fox but take take what you can um and then I think you also said that the Landscape Management maintenance schedule is elsewhere that is elsewhere in the ordinance yes um and then there's another on the
traffic study get through as fast don't worry you can tell them mayor I'm moving quickly what huh you're what it is um okay and then um then
there was also my 14 it was f um this is this I believe wasn't in my ma in the major side plan section uh but that could be a matter that somewhere else yes that's a that's referenced
elsewhere okay and same thing I think for K that that was just because I we didn't have the whole thing and then the environmental impact statement green development practices checklist that it will be both of those
will be um in in all of them yeah looking at the Eis section it says it has to be submitted with every development application and that section also talks about the green practice checklist so I'm assuming that they're both subit at the same time and the Eis if I look at them a lot of times that
gets a bunch of not applicabl uh yeah all over it too um okay so those so those will be still required and everything yep subdivision I'm pretty sure most of the questions I had were pretty similar let me get that one up because I I also Incorporated your
changes into that one too because like for instance there's a whole the the grading plan and stuff you said that was somewhere else um these are very very similar other than there's no concept plan in the
subdivision the the grading plan information is I believe that's in a separate section the ordinance as well um IM in section 252 is that actually
outside of the checklist requirements it's regulated elsewhere outside of the checklist so that's two uh 200- 2502 so that's one of the things that might be requirements for the drawings and the site plans and all the other stuff that's part of
the required okay oh the other one I had was on the trees which I don't remember exactly where it was um there tree replacement right yeah the tree replacement now if I remember our ordinance we Pro we kind of say that if you've done it through the um through
the planning board already then um it doesn't go through the regular permitting individual process you can sort of do that through the planning board so I'd want to make so is that is the um so the way I read the
requirements here they didn't have to actually do an inventory of all the trees they changed the original one was you had to do an inventory I don't have remember which page I'll coordinate with FR on that we we have something say identification and identif let me
try that again location and identification of all existing Street trees greater than five inches uh in diameter at measure breast height and all non Street trees greater than two and a half inches at breast height so I'll coordinate with Frank to make sure that matches up with our
pre-order EP I think I made sure to do did that with Fran with Dan beforehand but uh let me coordinate with FR that like to make sure that does get done at this stage and you're and you're correct Andrea too that if an applicant when an applicant's a site plan approval that
would suffice they wouldn't have to apply for a tree removal permit and I remember we did that in the in the ordinance so I'm assuming that whatever we make people pay for removing those trees or which we the trees in most cases that we're going to do that for an
for a larger applicant that comes before the planning board and the only way we could do that is to have the actual count come before the plan if I remember if they can't replace the trees on site then they have to pay an amount to have it replace for the town to place them somewhere else in the area so all that
would be determined at the planning board if they can't replace it on site and they have the same three tree Max or whatever that everybody else has so any if those trees come down they'll have to find another spot for them or pay us a nice little chunk of money for good size
trees okay I think that's it okay now thank you thank you okay um anybody else from the public wish to speak I don't see anybody
uh anybody from the council public they spoke already the the rest of the public does doesn't want to speak let me just outline what the next be that staff would make the discussed tonight um we'll get it over
to the clerk's office so they can distribute it to the council members they'll have a lookie over it if they're okay with that then we'll introduce it at a council meeting it'll be referred back here for the planning board to make comments on the verify it's in compliance with the master plan and then
it'll go back to the council for a public hearing um if it gets approved at the public hearing the mayor signs it 20 days later it becomes effective and we're set to go that sounds good any any other comments from uh planning board go ahead
I'm just curious why the checklist wasn't updated 20 years until now is I've only been here for five or six years I was going to say that
there's uh yeah every time it's like that we have certain items on the cleanup list that this is on it signage is on there hopefully lighting one day do we remove our all references to eight track plays and thumb drives we still have laser disc in there
though just in case I do have VHS Apes I still I collect those no we'll worry about it um okay any any other comments from uh planning board
um just I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing sove by the mayor second Simon second say I okay um meeting jour CL
session so what does April look like looks good you don't have to 16 shoting for Dre session west8 thank you okay meeting
Jour March 19th coming in but it's going to be a quick meeting um just catch up on catch up on minut resolutions close session it should be fair