the October 15, 2025 Five planning board meetings called to order. This advised that notice, time, date, location, and to the extent known agenda subject meeting was prominently posted in the public place reserved for such or similar announcements on October 2nd,
2025 and transmitted to the times, the Princeton packet and the West Windsor and Plansboro News on October 2nd, 2025 and filed with the township clerk on October 2nd, 2025. Please call the role.
>> Yes. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> Mr. Mr. Mr. B. Miss Far. Miss Apple. Councilman Whitfield.
>> Yes. >> Mayor North. >> Yes. >> Vice Chairman >> here. >> Chairman Park >> here. Okay, we have a quarum. Thank you. Um, at this time, I'd like to open it up to the public for
any comments on non-aggenda, non-pending items. Please step up to the microphone, state your name and address for the record, and you you'll be sworn in. Okay. Nobody's running up to the microphone,
so we'll move on to the minutes of September 3rd, 2025. As usual, Trish did a very thorough job giving minutes. >> Yep. >> Does anybody have any changes, recommend um modifications,
um clarifications in the minutes? >> No, I don't. Anybody? No. Move to approve the September 3rd minutes of the Westminster Planning Board. >> Second by Rob. Um,
>> please call the role for those that are eligible to vote. M >> Mr. Patel, >> yes. >> Mr. Lavaro, >> yes. >> Councilman Whitfield, >> yes. >> Mayor Marte, >> yes. >> Vice Chairman Overberman, >> yes.
>> Chairman Karp, >> yes. Minute to approve. Thank you. Next up is resolution PB25-06. Um Martina, do you you want to just enumerate just summarize what the
resolution is? Does anybody have any um Oh, you know what? You don't have to. Um anybody have any changes or comments or clarifications on the resolution PV256? This is for the
polo to cha restaurant phase three. Uh hearing none. Seeing none. Um I'll entertain a motion to approve the resolution PB25-06 as written. >> So move. >> Moved by the mayor. Second. >> Second.
>> Second by Mr. Whitfield. Please call a role for those um eligible to vote. >> Mr. Patel, >> yes. >> Mr. Lavaro, >> yes. >> Councilman Whitfield, >> yes. >> Mayor Marte, >> yes. >> Vice Chairman Hoververman, >> yes. >> Chairman Cart,
>> yes. Thank you. Resolution is approved. Lost my agenda. Okay. Uh any less on report reports available to be um talked about? No. Okay. We'll table that for another
time. Um okay, I think David, I think you're up with um work draft sign ordinance uh working session continues. >> Good evening, Andrew Carter. The record is David Note and Burges Associates back
again. Uh before I get started, I introduced a couple people before the meeting, but let me introduce her formally public. >> Uh actually, one of the first projects that Cibil uh started helping me with was looking at old signage reviews and
applications and beginning to organize what waivers what. So you can thank her and or blame her. >> Uh tonight we're continuing our discussion regarding the draft signage regulation. So if you recall last month we had gone through a lot of the threat
changes and regulations set forth for for commercial districts as well as for planned non-residential developments. So you have your standalone commercial building versus your say for example Nassau Nassau building type buildings. We had left off at a section regarding
temporary science and that held the political science. Um since that meeting Martina and I had uh several many conversations and uh the result of those conversations is that we've left that section off for
learnings for now. So the idea is to simply focus on commercial signage and at a later time go back to those signs. Might be asking why >> again you went so fast David. What what are we going to skip for now? >> Sorry. We are skipping uh the regulations set forward for temporary science.
>> Temporary science. >> Yes. And that included the regulations for political science. >> Understood. Understood. Okay. >> The reason being is the more Martina and I began to dig through the more we found that there was a lot of um conflicting opinions
andor case law on it. So one of my favorite examples arena was there's a New Jersey directive that I think it was from two maybe late 90s early 2000s regarding that you need to basically give preferential treatment to the American flag you can't really regulate
it as well as a P flag the MIA flag and then we later found a health division cases after that saying you can't differentiate flag so we were finding a lot of contradictions between state regulation
federal court cases, so on and so forth. So, we're continuing to research that, but rather than hold up the rest of these edits on commercial signage and planned on residential signage and next
redevelopment signage, we wanted to go forward with this. Um these changes are largely based upon applications that we've seen in front of this board and typical things that applicants are granting waiverss from some of which makes sense to tweak. So
the reason that we won't be talking about temporary science political science tonight is for that very reason. We're still looking into it, still researching, and I'm sure that'll be a robust conversation at a later point, but not tonight. We're we're not going to also be talking
about flags. >> Uh I mean we can still talk about flags in terms of commercial development. Um that's still on the table. >> Uh we had made several edits to the uh Iraq ordinance last time regarding flags and >> number of flags and so on and so forth.
>> Flags of flag polls >> uh a number of flags and flags. Yes. Uh none of that I don't believe has changed since the last iteration. >> Okay. We've amended first part over the last and so what do you want to do
last month and then circle back you have time and just show you the changes we made based upon first time sessions residential nonresident develop session
>> so having having said that um I do have one item I want to go back into at and you just tell me when the appropriate time would be and that's within the prohibited section. I want to re I want to revisit something in the prohibited course. Yeah. You tell me when the appropriate time >> Well, you know what? I think where we
left off last time and and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think we got through the Princeton Junction redevelopment signage regulations. >> So, what page are we on in the the >> That would be page bring out my mouse so I can move this quicker. Page 14. And the meeting was
that that section really begins. >> Wait, is my item is in a section prior to that? >> Yes. >> Go ahead. >> Okay, you're on. >> I'm gonna plug in my mouse quicker. >> So, the changes that you'll see in this
section are not that significant. Um, so as we scroll down to page 14, uh, we kept all the same language for the time being regarded temporary signage, how long they can displayed for, uh, wall
signage. We didn't really touch. Um, one of the discussions that we had at the last meeting was about letter height for commercial signs and for planned non-residential districts. And it was my recommendation at that time to get rid of those letter heights. The reason I haven't done that or recommended it for
the Princeton Junction redevelopment area and again it's open to that discussion is one of the goals of that district is to kind of create a more downtown environment where you might have more intimate signage that's really
supposed to be geared more towards pedestrians. So in that case, when you're trying to cultivate a pedestrian environment and you have buildings that might be closer to the street and signage that's supposed to be more oriented for pedestrians, I can see a rationale at least there for having
letter height regulations. So that's why we kept those regulations in there and we didn't necessarily remove those from commercial and plan out residential districts. Um, and as I go through this, if you have any questions, obviously feel free to interrupt me. Uh on the bottom of
page 14, we added some additional language regarding blade signs. So we do have a definition of a blade sign, but essentially a blade sign is very similar to a hanging sign. It's just not as um it's more structured than a hanging
sign. So a hanging sign is typically going to be, as the name implies, hanging. A blade sign is going to be more vertically oriented and attached to a building. Again, another type of sign that's supposed to catch pedestrian eyes. So we added that additional type of sign type in here and just replicated
some language that we had from other districts as well. We offered no changes to street address signs or monument signs or awning and pantheon signs. >> Hold on. >> Yes. >> So number three on the hanging blade
signs it used to be 6 in height. Now it's 18. Letter number three under B hanging signs and blade signs bottom of 14. >> Yes, >> the letter and logo height shall be maximum. It was six and now it's 18. Three times as large. >> Yes.
>> Okay. I just want to make sure that's right. That means we were either I guess we were too small in letter height prior. >> Yeah. And it also matches up with what we've done in other districts as well. Um, you know, one of the types of in the
RP1 district, which we're not amending obviously with this ordinance, but in the RP1 district, we had established a uh >> hanging sign and blade sign of that size. >> So, we amended that just to be more consistent with that district. >> Okay. So, >> and six is uh six inches is kind of smaller then.
>> Yes, absolutely. So, it's still 10 square feet. 10 square feet per side. How's I don't Oh, okay. So, you can have a two-sided sign. Is that what that means? >> Two-sided blade. Two sides of the blade. >> Okay. You should I think you need to
elaborate on that because it's kind it was at first it was saying pens unless it's a three-dimensional sign. Yeah. And I I don't know. It just seemed a little >> Yeah, we can I can take it with >> just just Yeah, just more descriptive in
that. Um, I don't I don't know the what the words would be, but it's, you know, so it's a two-sided sign. 10 square 10 square feet per side seems a little >> I don't know.
>> I I think way to phrase that where and I we might have actually already had that language in the definition of area. Okay. Um, the maximum sign area for a two-sided sign shall be 10 square feet
per side. May something regarding like um two-sided sign maybe needs to be added some something that infers it's, you know, that it's not on one side. >> Yeah, I think we have language in the definition of sign area that I can replicate there as well.
>> I'm just making too big a deal out of it. >> No, no, no, no, no. I it listen my philosophy if somebody reads it and they don't quite understand what it means you're not going to be the only one. So >> but but I see where Michael I see where Michael's confusion on this because I can I'm a little confused on it too. So
that number two item the maximum sign area shall be 10 square feet per side. Okay. Question. The sign area is that the lettering itself or is that the whole lettering
and the background? >> Oh, it depends on the type of sign. So, the definition of sign area is the entire space within a single contiguous perimeter enclosing the extreme limits of a sign or when a sign consists of individual letters or logos, the space
bounded by the largest vertical height or the lettering/lo by the largest horizontal width. Where are you reading from? >> That is in section 200-4 definitions. >> I'm looking at the definitions on page one. That's not there. >> It wouldn't be. Yeah, we're we're adding
we'll go back. We're adding or amending those two definitions. >> So, so, so it's basically each side of the sign is 3 and 1/2 by 3 and 1/2 approximately, right? Three and a half time three and a half is approximately 10 square feet.
>> Yeah. And we can probably even get rid of that language per side because the next sentence in that definition is for double-sided identical signs. >> Only one side constitutes total sign area, which I think is exactly what we're getting at as well. >> That's kind of what I was getting at. >> So, let me just take out her side and if
anybody has a question, we go back with that area. I mean, I'm going to think unless the sign is up against the building, it's going to be a two-sided sign >> typically. Yeah, because you want >> blade sign or a hanging sign, it's going to be two sides, whether they're coming
or going. >> Exactly. >> If it's pasted onto the the building, then Yeah. Then it's only one side. >> Yeah, I agree. So, I think we can just get rid of per side. That'll remove that ambiguity because now in my mind in my mind's eye as John Sterling Yankee
announcer used to say I can see somebody saying well you would take the 10 and then the 10 and 20 so I can have 20 square feet. So I think we just keep it as 10 square feet that elaborate per side. I think the definition of sign area goes back and covers that. >> Okay. So if it's 18 in
that's a foot and a half, right? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Okay. So, I guess you can only get like two lines on that, right? Foot and a half. Foot and a half >> if you're maxing it out yet. >> Okay. >> No. No. I I hear you. Y can always come for a waiver, right?
>> Yes. >> Actually, variance or waiver. >> This actually would be Barry since the redevelopment. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, so I think I need clarity on the definition of a laid sign. Let me tell you the image that's in my mind
right now. Correct me as necessary. Um, okay. Sometimes outside the Wendy's restaurant uh on Highway 1, they have this thing they plant in the ground and it shoots up like 8 feet or so and it's
sort of flaggy like vertical and it's got, you know, some type of sign message on it >> and it's in and it it's not a permanent sign. It's a temporary sign. They could take the stake and plant it wherever. Is that a blade sign? No, a blade sign is
defined as a double-sided sign which projects perpendicular from a tenant facade. Um, I can show you a picture on my laptop here of what that would look like. And obviously, it's not great. >> Then what what then what is the signage term for what I have described? >> Can you describe it again?
>> Temporary. >> Yeah. >> A banner. Okay. A vertical a vertical banner >> and that's not and that's temporary. >> Fine. I'm just trying to get on board with where we're at. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, imagine um here's the face of the wall right here. My chest. The blade
side would be >> so structurally sign. Right. Right. >> Whereas the hanging sign be >> exactly okay and I hope our all our viewers saw that. >> You can mark me as exhibit A1. Do do
in our like definition documents, do we have any visual like um >> examples? >> We should. >> Good. I like that. I like that. >> We should. >> Um I don't think we >> here's why. Because then there's no ambiguity as to description. >> Here's an example of a blade sign and
you know here's an example of a hanging sign. Right. >> Yeah. I think I think we need that. I'm a very visual person, so I like I like to see things. >> Uh what we can potentially do if that's something that the board and the
township >> I don't you you on these are on this is on the website, right? >> Yeah. On the e code. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And we have so we have um >> examples. >> We have 24 attachments with our ecode,
right? So attachment one is for example lot definition diagram. So those are actual diagrams of what these Yes. So that's something we can actually >> But is the reader required to go to an appendix or is it within the like >> illustration within the text?
>> Yeah, I mean it it would be worth a conversation with coded system about which way they think would be the best way to actually codify it. >> It would be better. >> Actually, I I disagree. I think it'd be better if if you're talking about a blade sign, you have the you have it right next to they have the picture
right next to the definition >> like that. >> Oh, well that's true. Okay. >> And that's Yeah, >> I obviously No, I see your point, Stephanie. >> I'm a compatible to either one. It's just usually coded system will have an idea of what works best when you codify something. >> But you're right. It could be a live it
could be a live link since it's going to be a >> or it could be C appendix whatever number >> with the link with the link to it. It just makes sense to me. >> Good point. >> Because to me, like a blade sign, it it
could be it's 10 square feet, right? It could be it looks like a hanging sign, but it's just a different position and it's horizontal and attached to the building as opposed to hanging from um a vestibule, let's say. >> Yeah, I think that's definitely something that could be uh incorporated
into the ordinance. >> Okay. >> I'm just making a mental not a mental note, making a note in plan. Anything else regarding uh hanging sides or blade times? >> No. >> Uh I'm just going to keep on scrolling through again. Interrupt me if you have
any questions, comments. Uh we did not change anything regarding street address signs, monument signs, awnings and canopies. Window lettering. We did up the percentage to 40%, that was based on the conversation we had at the last meeting. 15% people thought that was a little
unrealistic. Um so we uh yeah we added that >> window signage over the um center. >> Yeah. >> It's more than 15% that's in >> what what number are you looking at? What letter?
>> Oh it's the next page >> 15 >> page 16. >> Oh got it. Okay. So does that exceed 40 and and Sam you said the acne site has what of >> Yeahite
is that 40%. >> Just about >> okay >> and nobody seems to complain when we do that it's just auto >> no the only the only complaint I have is that the bakery in the acne site has a flashing sign
>> the O P O P it flashes all the time and I know that's not allowed by >> Does it flash when it's closed? >> I don't know if they keep it on 24/7. I don't know if it's 247. They Michael, they start early in the morning. So, I don't know. >> Okay,
>> we'll have a picture of that in the, you know, >> do not do this. >> Good question. For this indoor area, 40% is for security. So, you be able to see inside outside or >> Yeah, it has a little bit to do with security. It also has to do with visual
clutter as well. So, you know, there's great examples of nice window designs that incorporate, you know, open air and are very attractive. Um, maybe this says a lot about me. When I think about window signs, I usually think about like a seated liquor store. That's where my
mind always goes to where somebody has like the deals of the week flashing up in all the windows and you really can't see inside. So, on one hand, yeah, you are right. It's a it could be a security issue if you can't see into the building. Uh but it's also a um also an aspect of visual clutter as well. So
trying to reduce the amount of noise visual noise in front of the building. So it's a little bit of both. >> So now I mean I've seen like stores have window size. Is it per window or let's say you have 10 windows and 40% of those 10 windows can be
>> Yeah. We look usually look at the total. >> Okay. So if I have 10 windows 100 square f feet each then that's >> I can do 40% in each window. >> 40% of each window. Yes. And or I guess if one window is larger and the other window is smaller you can put a percentage on the larger one. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. So you can cover 40% of total window area. >> Yes. The 60% needs to be open. Uh the next one that I added in was banner sides. Now, this is going to get a little bit confusing because a banner sign is very similar to a blade sign.
So, where a blade sign is a double-sided sign which projects perpendicular from a tenant facade, a banner sign is a double-sided sign which projects perpendicular from a building facade. Now, what's the difference? Typically, you see these banner signs, which is not
going to be like the temporary banner that you were describing before. It's essentially what looks like a larger blade sign that identifies a building name. So if you have a larger type of development, um for example, I think the the development in the RP1 district WQ
Avalon, they have banner signs that attach the side of the building which identifies the building name. That doesn't necessarily identify each tenant within there. Those tenants can have their own specific smaller signs. These would be a slightly larger sign that
would identify the name of the building should that building have a fancy name of sorts. have those kind of spons um I personally like the way they look but again it's signage can be partly subjective while you think about that one
uh we also added language for temporary A-frame signs these are uh established as uh basically an A frame sign is also known as the sandwich board sign. So basically you walk past the cafe, coffee shop,
um not the CD liquor store that I was describing and it's has the deals of the day and that looks like I always like these types of signs because I think they add a little bit of visual interest. Uh makes it downtown look a little bit more lived in and they always work on me. When I see an A-frame sign,
I always walk towards the three on there mostly because my vision is getting worse and worse. Um, but we uh yeah, so we do have new regulations that would permit these types of A-frame signs and where they can be located and only allowing one for business.
The next set of regulations we added were automobile service station canopy signs. These mirror the same types of signage regulations for automotive service stations that we developed for commercial developments as well as planned non-residential developments. Uh
Allan at the last meeting had recommended a more concrete measurement of sign area because I think last time we just said it can't exceed the sign canopy. Uh so looking at some prior applications to West Windsor, I
recommended um a uh that the width and the height of the canopy sign shall not exceed 15% of the canopy face to which is attached. And then finally we added new regulations flag signs there. Right now
there are no flag signs. So for automobile service, right? So like a synco, right? So it has like um whatever that's the thing the roof over the pumps
>> and so on the side there. So let's say it's 30 feet wide by 5t >> tall, right? >> So whatever area that is, you're saying you can the SOCO logo can only be 15% of
that area. In that example, 22 and a2 ft square feet. >> Yes. Yeah. That's >> actually most of those can most of the the roofs of such canopy are no more than like two feet. >> They're pretty narrow. Yeah. >> I just said five. I don't Yeah, it's
it's it's narrow. So 30 feet by two feet 60 feet 15% what whatever that is. Um >> be 9 square feet. So it' be a little more modest. Um >> and then the letter height can but the letter height can only be what? I guess it can only whatever it can fit on that
height, right? >> Yeah. We did not establish a letter height, so we're only looking at the percentage of that canopy facade. >> What about if you have a really long um gas station name? >> They have to come for a waiver. >> Exactly. >> Yes.
>> Yeah. For here it would be a variance. Uh for other places in the township it would be a waiver. >> The reason I wanted to add this is because there was an application for the was it actually or >> I forget which gas station.
>> Yeah. All right. So not that one. There was a gas station within the Princeton Junction redevelopment plan area that wanted new signage and really we had no gauge on how to measure those signs. So, >> okay, >> even though it's not a permitted juice, I wanted to at least have something in
there. So, should a new gas station take over at one point and they need to submit an application even if it goes in front of the zoning board of adjustment for suspension and not performing use >> at least having some sort of sign measurement in there. >> We'll see. Okay. Thank you.
>> And then black signage we're also adding to the district as well. And that mirrors the same language we had established for commercial developments as well as planned non-residential developments. On that note, if you go back to page
one, we did amend the definition of flag and sign as well. And you'll see in the definition of flags, we removed the reference to national, state, county, or municipal flags. And on the definition of sign, we also removed the definition or fortune that
dealt with uh nations, governmental agencies, charitable, philanthropic, civic, professional organizations, so on and so forth. We remove those to pursue
a greater degree of content neutrality. So rather than have certain aspects of favoritism shown in those definitions, just remove them completely. H1. >> Oh, I'm sorry. All the way back to page 11. >> Okay, one moment. Good. Yes, just going
back to flag flags for a moment. Right. So, the maximum um flag pole shall be no taller than the height permitted for principal buildings in the district. So if the it's anywhere in that district, if the maximum height is 30 foot
building, then the flag even though the flexible is going to sit outside a 10-ft building, it can go up to 30 feet is what you're saying. Okay. >> Yes. >> Sorry about that. >> Back to page one. On page one, you can see where we took
those uh less content neutral aspects out of the definitions and that essentially was what we did not cover in the last meeting. As I mentioned, we did go back and we did revise the draft based on the
comments that we got back from the planning board at the last meeting. >> You talking about page one? >> Yeah, on page one. Yeah, that's where we you can see we uh amended definition of flag. >> We got the reference to national, state, county, and municipal flags. And through
the definition of sign we got rid of the you know other language that was less content neutral. >> Do I have a comment? I mean English is not my first language but the way you flag is written it looks like the pony made up of cloth panels fabric and that's how I
actually now that you say that I'm reading it the same way. Um it should be a sign that is made of cloth canvas fabric or like material that is mount. Yep. I will correct that as well. Good catch. >> Otherwise, again, a lot of the other
edits we made since the last meeting >> flag doesn't have to be the next flag. I mean, I can put anything and call it a flag. >> That's why we pull the temporary sign. >> Yes. >> Yep.
You push your family press up one time. >> I mean should be some accepted flag approval committee. >> All right. Right. And now with the the FIFA season that's going to be upon us in the next uh 18
months. >> We'll be seeing a lot of different flags in the state of New Jersey. >> That accepted flag, right? >> Well, no. I'm thinking people's nationality flags, you know, because of their their football teams. are known flags mean. >> Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Those are known flags. >> My name and I want to advertise. I want
to get around the sign ordinance. I can just call anything a flag, right? >> Well, as long as it means the whatever our accepted definition of that is. >> Yeah. That's that's kind of the whole struggle with flag and and signage
regulations content neutrality because you know depending on which legal case that you're looking at or directed particularly the new stuff that's coming out you're really not supposed to give favoritism to one flag over the other
>> whatever fits in the box >> flag always has to fly above all the any other >> well that's in terms of zoning though we can never >> in terms of flag practice yes you know US flag but Well, good point. Do we need to make reference to uh the uh the in
relation in regards to the to the our nation's flag, do we have to make a reference to the flag code of the United States of America? >> No, >> not at all. >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> I don't know. I mean, because I know there's there really are certain rules about, you know, the hanging of the American flag.
>> You'd be sending out a lot of zoning violations. I I don't think we'd need to anyway on because we the principle of preeemption means that federal law in general conflicts >> would would govern but you know unless
you itemize all of those things. We just rely on the preeemption and >> that makes us it easier for us then. >> Yeah. I always when I'm driving around if I see uh flags it's so far the American flag is always above the other flag
>> which is part of the flag code of the United States of American flag below the I don't even know what to call it but it's the flag from Star Trek the >> Federation I believe. Yes. Well, um,
>> I think they corrected us since then, but I believe that the United Federation was above the United States for at least a week. >> Um, so yeah, a lot of the other changes we made in the ordinance were based on planning board comments. Uh, the one I'd
like to really bring to everybody's attention and then Curtis, we can go back and talk about temporary signs. If I'm sorry, not temporary signs. Um, page >> prohibited signs. If we go to page seven, uh you'll see under item one, which is
signage plan, there was a discussion at the last meeting of whether or not we really want to have applicants come back if it's a existing non-residential plan development and if there's no site plan that's required, are we really going to make people come back to add a new sign
that requires no waiverss? And what we did is that we added new language in there that would bypass that process and just res require a zoning permit and that is uh item B which is new for completely conforming signs which are proposed in existing non-residential
plan developments. No site plan shall be required. Applicants shall be required to obtain a zoning permit. So >> that makes sense. should hopefully streamline the process for again conforming sides and existing
land residential developments. Uh that is essentially what I had. Uh if we want to jump to page 11 which is prohibited size actually I guess it begins on page yeah
page 11 and that would be section five. So, the item I'd first of all, the item I'd like to look at is on page 12. Uh, parenthetical 6, parenthetical 8. But first, I need you to look at an illustration. Um, this
is for you guys. Andrea, you want to come and get it. You guys in the back can see it too. >> Get it to the appendix. >> Well, no, no, no, no, don't because it's for discussion. >> Okay. Um, so, uh, I I I'll read the sections that I'm concerned about. uh
parenthetical six under prohibited signs. Silhouetted or three-dimensional signs, for example, signs lacking a background and having letters, figures or devices silhouetted against the sky or other open space, not a part of the
sign and or signs in which objects or representational devices are present in the round or other than in a vertical plane. Uh eight, any sign erected upon, against or above a roof or on top of a
parapit of a building. The illustration I've given you is uh Pennington Market. This sign, this signage has been there forever, as long as I've known the Pennington Markets. And you can see it's individual letters
um illuminated in on their own whatever yet it doesn't have a backing. It's on a roof. Um and uh I I'm'll be honest with you. I'm in terms of sign signage
variety. I'm okay with something like this in West Windsor Township. And I don't understand where? >> Well, I Well, I don't know. I mean, we can we can talk about that. I I just I just don't see this as a necessarily
egregious uh sign for West Windsor Township. I'd love to know what other people think. Um, since I've just sort of sprung this on you, >> I I see I find that commercial developments sometimes every sign's
exactly the same, just no logos. is just like the name of like sometimes when I'm let's say going over to like Hillsboro there's a development there even the Starbucks slowly it's not a logo Starbucks it's just a Starbucks every sign in the development it's the same
exactly the same >> so I'm >> Was that in more of a planned community type of situation not not like Michael I think Hillsboro in 206 there's a whole variety of stuff >> no I think that kind of thing is imposed by the land
>> by the landlord absolutely 100% It says you can only have sign like this. >> So, >> well, like Palmer Square, Princon, New Jersey. >> Yeah, that's impossible by the land, not by the township, >> right? I I don't I don't know. I don't have a problem with the Pennington
Markets sign, but I don't know. >> With no one's ever come to be ask sign up. I mean, I guess I'm just sort of asking, you know, in terms of the development of our our signage package, what what was
the reasoning for this prohibition? >> Dave, I mean, what I mean, you you're you're you're the sign guy. What are you >> the sign guy? Um, if I was to take a guess that going back to the item number six
or former seven, new six, the solo letter signs. If I was to take a guess, that's probably a reaction to a lot of signs that people saw maybe being developed in the 1950s and 1960s where you would always have an attraction of a
sign. So, I'm thinking like the old Steve Boy sign, you know, be the actual silhouette of the big boy holding donut, something like that being a three-dimensional sign. I I think that that language in that section was trying to prohibit against that. Uh in terms of
item eight >> which is the roof. >> Yeah that's a roof one. I guess being erected upon or against quite frankly I don't know on top of the roof maybe that the the
thought process behind that was to limit the visual appearance of the height of the building. So if you had a building that was maybe 25 feet and there were added ladders on there that made it two feet taller, would the building therefore look two feet taller? We don't like that idea. So let's take
it out. That that would be my only guess that might maybe throw a regulation like that in there. They could do that guys have a problem but rather than on the side building they could roof sticks out.
>> I mean that's an example. I doubt because of the nature of highway traffic they they wanted them that high. >> Okay. But >> yeah or if you want to you know this is something that the the pass interested in. I think that's a really cool sign. So you can just amend eight to read uh
any sign erected on top of bit of the building. That way if you have a slope roof or maybe a manard roof you can have signage on there. Um, and I don't know if that would conflict with item six. >> Six.
>> Can I >> Yes, sir. >> I don't know if this going to be controversial what I'm about to say. >> Say it. >> Or maybe just common sense just someone wants to put a sign like that.
Let's say we want to put a sign that doesn't fit into any of this. You need a variance or a waiver, right? So, they have to hire a lawyer. they have to, you know, put together all this stuff and come before the board. Why don't we have a signage kind of package where they
submit all their visuals, their, you know, pictures or whatever and it just comes before they don't even have to be here. If we deny them, then sure, hire the lawyer, come before the board. It will help speed up things and you know
just to have them sit here get on the agenda for like you know a two-hour presentation of you know why they you know this sign is you know is 24 in opposed to 18 in. If they would just put a package together it comes in our in
our package and we kind of review it and okay yeah it this location this building size okay six inches taller in letter height. Yeah, I I'm gonna approve it. Go ahead. Let him Let him do it. >> They're not asking for official
>> They're asking for official approval. I'm saying I'm saying they don't have to go through the the whole, you know, rigomearo. >> But just to add to his thing, right? Let's
say there's a business that gives you a sign package what he's saying, right? saying that we want this sign to be approved and you put it on our agenda and they don't show up to like don't bring a lawyer, don't bring anybody. Can
we just discuss and approve? That's what essentially. >> No, I'm not even I'm not even saying that. I'm saying that it's an existing shopping center, new tenant comes in, he wants to change the sign on there and he wants to raise the letter height from 18 in to 22 in. >> Closes 18.
>> It closes 18. Don't hire a lawyer application for waiver variance, whatever. Get on the agenda, twohour, whatever presentation. Just sub. Hey, I'm gonna fasttrack this sign um waiver package. Here is here's all my pictures.
Here's what it's going to look like. It comes before the board. It's in our package. We discuss. We vote. Yeah. Go ahead on your way. >> It's not here. You just >> That's what I'm saying. >> That's essentially what I was saying. I mean,
You know, why clog up the agenda for and the expense of the applicant because he wants to add six inches to his sign or their sign or an extra sign. >> Interesting question, please. It's an official application either not here or not represent
>> not an application. It's >> they're asking they're asking for >> asking for they're asking for an action from the board to change a sign add a sign um which is not allowed >> by code is not allowed. >> So it's a it's a whether it's a waiver
or a varian either by law I mean I'm not lawyer I'm putting >> I'm not thinking law now I'm thinking you know common sense fasttrack. >> Yeah yeah I understand but you will still have to discuss in public with the >> Yes. We have to discuss in public. >> Yes. We get in our package the the
fasttracked applicant has asked and given us a package of significance. It's they don't have any >> only signs only >> they wouldn't have post they would have >> I think they they would still need
>> okay I guess I'm put up I guess the bure bureaucracy has gotten >> well that's the difficulty is unless you're waving you know the notice requirements because you never know the neighbor might have an interest in this. They'll want to know. >> It's I mean
>> neighbor show off this idea. >> It was just it was a concept. >> So I mean Michael's made some interesting points. I'm thinking uh and my mind was going back on past applications. Michael, so uh when Wegman's changed their logo, um Wegman's
came here before us. when Walmart changed its logo, you know, to take out the little dash and just go Walmart with the the asterisk of a daisy or whatever, you know, they came before us. And and using another real life example who has
not come before us, and I think it's still pending is Princeton University with the Lake Campus. Um they've come before us with the the master plan. They came before us for the revisions to the general development plan, but they still
have not appeared before us with a signage package. >> Okay. So having said that, Sam, how is that response to that signage situation different than what Michael's talking about? >> Well, it's one of the examples you
introduced. At that time, we didn't the ordinance didn't allow signage in a planned commercial development be approved administratively if it complied with the code. Before they had to have a sign package that had to come in front of the boards, but they buried from that
sign package in any way had to come back in front of the board changed. We're eliminating that. They don't have to do that. Wouldn't have to do that if they're keeping the same size just changing the >> Okay. >> So, so are you saying that if Walmart
eliminated just a dash wall in my change overall signage approval? Yeah. even if it's the same size. >> That's why we made that change either. >> Yep. >> I mean, so >> Okay. So, that's an improvement.
>> Yeah. >> That they don't have to come back now if they just >> a lot of a lot of what you've heard based upon these changes, they wouldn't be coming to be in the future. >> Okay. So I mean what's different than if
somebody knew this is a place in next to then by in old days they have to come here used for Windsor Greens for example this was back the lady board was extremely tall they could use
>> that's ridiculous >> and they didn't use those others they would come out of the for to get a home. There was this over on the where the the food store was now over there to the left of that. It was like a kids zone or
something and they wanted to have different color left. I remember this each of the letters in there. It was a two meeting allocation number. >> That's what I'm trying to avoid. That is that that's insane. That that's really insane. So, you know what? I'll go back
to what I always say. The market will dictate. If they don't like the colors, then people will not go to that shopping center. And guess what? They'll change the colors on it. >> Totally different. >> I think science has become a little bit more range.
>> I mean, it used to actually a little history about it in 1930s. It was a runway. for the land there and ground they building the widget center found with some foundation cuts that the plane used to be.
>> Oh wow. >> So that was in 1930s. In 1938 the avoid the Martian aircraft coming in as a way >> and Nassau Park used to be a sod farm. >> Exactly. Uh let me throw out another scenario then because while everyone was
talking about that. >> So we did update like we just said we updated the language to say that if the conforming sign in a existing non-residential plan development no site plan required just a zoning permit. Let me throw out another crazy idea. Hypothetically say I'm going to bring up
the scenario. Say the Walmart had a sign that was approved three years ago and that sign required a sign area waiver because it was 10 square feet larger than what was permitted and the board had no approved
that application. 5 years later Walmart decides to rebrand. They want to update new signs. They want to replace that sign in kind. Right? So it's not getting any larger. The dimensions are not changing, but it's going to be a new logo in that same
footprint of the sign. Technically, it would still require a waiver because it's larger than what was permitted. Is there interest to say that if the sign is conforming and or was previously approved,
they don't have to come back for a new waiver? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean it's like Walmart gets bought by Target or Target gets bought by Walmart. They don't have to come to us to ask the problem with this as I said it's been only five years since it been done was
very everything they wanted to see. >> No, they don't have to come back. It's the same footprint. >> I that's okay. I think that would cover. >> We we've had cases where they're grandfathered in because they were approved for whatever. Even if they haven't installed the sign yet, if they were approved for it, then it's good to
go. Yeah, >> it's like one business buying. >> So Curtis, that does not answer your question though about what we just talked about before, the the roof sign here. >> Yeah. So >> where where at this point? Where do you feel our discussion on that type of sign
is now? this type of roof, individual letters, uh, individual lit letters, and also on a roof. >> I I would recommend if you're going to change anything, not to necessarily allow signs above the roof height. I
remember that there was a certain developer who will go unnamed in West Windsor, who wanted to build a taller building and have that sign planted on top of the building and it looked a little garish. Um, however, if it lines up with the roof or like a mansark roof
like this, I think there's some potential for flexibility. >> I wouldn't want it to go above the roof line or on top of the roof, >> but I don't have a problem with this sign because it's on the facade of the Isn't that Hold on. Isn't that
considered a facade the background of that or no? >> No. I I think because it's not flush against itself. >> Yeah. Um >> yeah, I I went on Google Maps to take a look at it. You can see the shadow behind it a little bit better, too. Um
but yeah, it's a more of an oldfashioned type of sign. >> See, the way I see it is something like that, they will have a full application, not just sign. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I saw when the pennington market came, they must have
come with the sign must be part of the full application of that, right? The petting to market is so old. I don't even know what kind of rules they had to and obviously the sign has not changed in 50 years. >> No, but this looks like a facade. >> The sign is way before even we're
thinking about what thigh sign should be. >> Oh, is this is this a curve? It's it's >> looks like it's a little bit of a >> It's slanted and the the I don't think it's flush against the roof. >> No, no, no. Those are individ they're
they're raised. You can see the shadow. >> They're raised, right? But the roof this roof is is slanted. >> Yeah. Right. So, it's on the edge of the roof. >> Yes. And >> over the canopy, you know, the walking canopy. >> I see what you're saying. Yeah. >> If you take a look at my >> Is that the same location? Oh, yeah. You
got a better view of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I have >> it around for the audience. >> There you go. That's great. >> Yeah. It looks like they're anchored in behind it. Yeah, >> I'm surprised in 60 years a
single storm has knocked that out. >> No, I don't think I don't think they've ever lost or right. We've had storms and stuff, but I don't think it's pretty resilient in this case. >> Oh, okay. It's more threedimensional when I'm looking at it here.
>> Got it. Okay. Uh, but that essentially covers what we changed and what we went back and what I wanted to bring up. Does anybody else have any questions about these regulations in general thoughts, concerns? Uh, I will tell you right now that civil
will be working on that appendix for the fit and touches. Is that all right with you on that? >> So that'll be its own discussion and its own ordinance. Uh well it could >> but I mean because this is an ordinance. >> Yeah I guess it would have to be adopted as an ordinance probably as a part of
this ordinance still. >> Well part of this ordinance or or separate because >> they're talking about the appendix for the sign >> types. It would be part of this. >> Okay. So if as if if as if as if as if as if as if as if as if as if as if as if as as the planning board might take
action tonight on this submission for ordinance to be reviewed by council and action by council. >> It's not complete. >> It won't. Yeah, >> it's not an official action. There's no
direct staff. This is the way you want it done. We'll put it in the proper format. The next process is 14 gets introduced to council. It'll be council for that colle. >> Understood. Understood. But again,
tempor temporary is not part of the theme right now. >> Exactly. >> And hypothetically, say if we pick a sign type that isn't as illustrious as potentially another example, um that can always be swapped out. I don't think that would necessarily count as a
substantive change at that point, but any anything else? Anybody? Anything else? Okay. Um, >> public. >> Yep. At this time, I open it up to the public any comments on what we discussed here regarding signage.
Can you hear me? There we go. >> Um, Andrea Mandel, 46 Ellsworth Drive. I'm the council president for West Windsor. Um, while looking at this and looking at the discussion, by the way, thank you for doing the signs. I've been
on the planning board a number of years and I know how many hours we spent on whether TJ Maxx's J came down below a few inches on on that sign because they don't have letters that are all the same size. So, we should be
working and thank you for finally doing this and getting rid of hopefully most of those problems. Um before this does come to council. Uh um I I noticed like for instance there was some discussion here what a blade sign is. I had to look on my phone to see what a blade sign is.
Um I would like that council could possibly see some samples because to just talk about something that's 10 in versus 18 in and versus another size is hard. um one of the definitions you had
there which was for sign a sign um that you didn't use the word size you used another word I forget what it was but it was very confusing because it was is that the size of the logo or the size of the sign and to me that meant that if
it's the size of the logo you could have a sign size which is the word I might have used um 10 times as much but have a small logo or a bunch of small logos as long none of them are over a certain height or space. So if you're talking about say
a blade sign and you're talking about something like 10 square feet or whatever it was then I think that should be um the size of the entire blade and not whatever you put on it because I think was a just making a specific I
think that was a little um uh not uh clear. Okay. Yeah. So I might just must say 10 10 square f 10 square feet size or something like that. Anyway, what I am asking is that there be a little bit of an explanation to council um and
particularly some samples say some pictures and maybe even a few somebody can drag in a few samples for some of these types of signs so that we understood understand it. Uh maybe there's even something that could be left in the council room while people
are looking at uh at this and before we might hold a work session or discussion on this. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. And uh yeah, we can absolutely prepare like a separate memo with examples of what those signs look like both from the internet and then
>> something that is um that something that actually shows the the size we're talking about. So it's not just a little picture. So, uh, people have an issue with spatially thinking what's 10 in 18 in if had a couple of signs that we could see that would be >> a fun SketchUp project as well
>> or just go go get somebody sign and that they're lend lending or something like that. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, >> Dave. Also, with that um uh because I know it comes in the ordinance, you know, the lighting of the sign. There's
different ways one can light a sign. And if you could show examples of that, too. >> Okay. Any other members of the public wish to speak about signage? Okay. I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. So moved by the
mayor. >> Second. Anybody? >> Second. >> Second by Martin. All in favor say I. I. I. >> Okay. Second. >> Yeah. >> We need We don't need a close session. Anything to talk about may
>> Okay. meeting adjourned. >> Do we need to Are we acting on this at all though >> to pass? Do we have to >> Okay. I hope so. Yeah. >> Do we need to take some action on this item? >> No actions. It works. >> Oh, but no. But don't where so doesn't
it come to the point where we as a planning board say now we are ready to pass this on to the >> fish. So that's coming up in another meeting then right? Okay. >> Okay. So it was I I thought we were going to wind it up tonight.
>> It's wound up. It's just the f the final document has to be put together. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. >> At some point if I do it then it gets back to the planning board and then back. >> So at that point when it's back to the planning board that's when we say yes
it's a go you know ratify it. >> No meeting on the 5th typically on the 19th but that will see tomorrow whether the application be >> so I'm sorry. So no meeting November what 5th
>> first Thursday first Wednesday >> your leadership He'll give me a fruit that