Good. >> Good evening and welcome to this uh meeting of the West Windsor Planning Board for Wednesday, May 6, 2026. Uh this is to advise that the notice of
the time, the date, the location and to the extent known agenda of this meeting was prominently posted in the public place reserved for such or similar announcements on April 23rd, 2026 and transmitted to the Times of Trenton and
the Princeton packet on April 23rd, 2026 and filed with the township clerk on April 23rd, 2026. Could we have the roll call please? Mr. Patel, >> yes. >> Mr. Shaktel, >> here. >> Mr. Panco,
>> yes. >> Mr. B. Miss Bar. >> Miss Apple >> here. >> Councilwoman Jvers >> here. >> Mayor Marte. >> Yes. >> Vice Chairman Overberman >> here. >> Chairman Cart.
>> We have a quorum. um chairman's comments and correspondence and if any board members have any uh comments and correspondence that is welcome as well. I have none at this time. Does anyone else have anything they want to say to open the meeting?
Okay, we'll move to public comments. The uh the floor is open for public comments from the public on any non-aggenda item uh tonight or pending before the planning board. Um is there any public
comment? Seeing none, we'll move on. Uh we have before us for tonight for approval the April the March 18th minutes of the planning board. Are there any changes or modifications to those minutes?
>> Yeah, I think there's just one typo. Uh, page five. Um, like the second line and all other conditions mentioned by council. Uh, I think that's councel like C O U N S E L meaning our attorney.
Yeah. >> Thank you, Linda. Are there any other comments on the March 18th minutes? Could I have a motion to approve with corrections? >> So moved. Bill >> Hitman. >> So moved. >> Second.
>> Uh all those in favor of approving the motion, the minutes with comments, uh say I. >> I. >> All those opposed, nay. >> I have to abstain. >> Uh okay. And Allan is abstaining because he's not here. And likewise Sue, they were not both of them were not here at
such meeting. Um, we're going to invert the order of review tonight. Uh, we're going to The first uh application we'll be looking at is PB26 03 Princeton Ascend. Uh, please take the
the mic and and introduce yourselves. >> Make it angle it angle it so it's closer to your mouth. Thank you. >> You can make it taller. >> You can tell make it taller. raise it too. >> Okay. All right. Now, now thank you. Good evening, members of the board. My
name is Gusto O'Neal. I'm an attorney with the law firm of Claire Harrison Harvey Bransburg. I'm here this evening representing the owner of the property at 43 Princeton Heightstown Road, Princeton Ascend, and an application for some accessory signage. Um
earlier this evening I put on everyone's chair a copy of our exhibit package. Um just to orient the members of the board to the to the property. Um >> these are new before you get started just going to put in the record. Proof of publication and service are in order and the board has jurisdiction.
>> Thank you Jerry. >> Thank you so much. Um just to orient members of the board to the location if anyone's not familiar with the property. a copy of an aerial showing an overview of the property was provided at exhibit A of my exhibit package. Um, this
property is located, as I said before, 43 Princeton Heightstown Road. Um, the red balloon from Google Maps is right next to the building. As you can see, it is an L-shaped building. Um, if you're going north on Princeton Heightstown
Road, you'd obviously be traveling into Princeton. Um, this is a bit a busy road. speed limit is 50 miles an hour. So, the purpose of the application before us before you this evening is to provide some accessory signage so that my client um his building is more
visible to to members of the public. >> It's a 40 m an hour speed limit there. >> Oh, I had seen 50 so I'm not sure where >> Yeah, I think >> I don't know exactly where it was 50 at some point but I guess I think
>> that I stand corrected. Thank you for that. Um, my client did previously receive approvals in 2017 to construct a uh mixeduse building at that location. The building has 23 multifamily units, five
of which are affordable. There's also uh over 12,000 square ft of commercial space within that building. Um, the building, as I said before, is an L-shape. Um the application as I noted before is motivated before I'm sorry is
motiv uh motivated my my client's desire to have his tenant spaces more visible to anyone that's on Prince Nightstown traveling past the building. Um the commercial spaces that are in this building range from a sub shop,
there's an IV suite. There's also a number of other uses that are that are in the commercial spaces. Um there are two commercial spaces that are visible from Prince Nightstown Road, but a lot of the commercial units are located in that L portion of the building that's not as visible from Prince Nightstown
Road. Um so if you're a tenant in that back portion of the L of the L shape of the building, you're you're not as visible from the road. Um provided at exhibit B. I did provide a
copy of the site plan that was initially reviewed by the board back in 2017. Um, on that site plan, there is a note towards the bottom of the page showing where this sign is being proposed to be located. And so the the location is going to be
the same as it was back in 2017. So, it's on the southern portion of of the property. Um, exhibit D, I did provide a picture showing exactly where the uh sign is going to be
located. So, this is this is a view is if you're looking as you're traveling south on Princess Night Road. So, where you see that large tree, that tree is going to be the exact location of the sign. My client actually put that tree there as a marker so that he would know where he wanted that sign to be located
um when he returned for approvals for the signage. I also pro provided in my exhibit package at exhibit C um a copy of the proposed signage plan. I did have our signage contractor form and signs um
prepare a rendering showing what the signage would look like if you were a um if you were traveling on Princeton Heights Road. So the images were rendered if approved. This is what the signage would look like. Um, as you can see,
it's easy for someone who's on on the road to be able to see it. The tenants are all clearly identified. I know that there was a question from the board's planner as far as whether or not we would have that text be black and white or if we were going to change the colors um in keeping with what the perspectives
are. So, for example, if Chase Bank moved in there, if the um logos were going to look were going to be um consistent with the brand or if it was going to continue to be black and white, we have decided that we're going to go just with the black and white. So, what you're seeing in those renderings is exactly what it's going to look like um
when constructed, if approved. Um there was also a note from your board's planner about the um proposed landscaping. We are going to be proposing landscaping as you can see on the third page of exhibit C. There is going to be landscaping. So consistent with the ordinance um what we're
proposing we would submit to the board is going to be aesthetically pleasing. It's going to look nice on Prince Nightstown Road. Um, it's also going to kind of pull from the the brick of the building at 43 Princeton Nightstone Road. So, the bottom of the signage has
that brick. It's going to look nice just like, as you can see, the the brick um of the buildings that are nearby. Um there was also a question that we had received related to um the size of neighboring signs at neighboring businesses and whether or not what we
were proposing was consistent with neighboring signage. I did provide at exhibit E of my package um measurements of the neighboring signs. So we're proposing a sign that's going to be uh see just went over these numbers.
Just want to make sure I'm being accurate with what I state on the record. So, what we're proposing is going to be 10 ft across and uh I'm sorry, 100 trying to do quick
math. 10 feet across and 10 feet down. >> Signs. >> Oh, I'm sorry. It's it's going to be 100 total square feet. Um, and that is consistent with other signs that are located along Princeton Heightstown Road. My client actually went out and measured by hand the signs at the
neighboring businesses. Um, tab A of exhibit E, 61 and 63 Princeton Heights Road. That sign is 12 ft high. Um, 6 1/2 ft across at 64 Princeton Heightstown Road. The
large shopping plaza, that height is over 14 ft. Um it's over 16 feet across in width. >> Excuse me. Could you repeat that again? >> Sure. So at exhibit E, um I provided some dimensions of neighboring signs because one of the one of the comments
that were that we received was um just to provide the board with some uh context for other signs in the area. So this sign that's located at 64 Princeton Heightstone Road, my client actually went out and personally measured the sign. Um that sign is
over 14 feet in height, 16 feet across. Um, and then at another neighboring shopping center, which would be the Ellsworth Center at 9 Cranberry Road. It has that Cranberry Road address, but it's very close to um
my client's property. Uh, that sign is 17 ft in height and about 10 ft across. >> Can you give me or somebody um figure out the square footage >> of those two? >> Oh, the area of that. So >> I tried to was working on this this
week. So I'm glad that you provided signs. I appreciate that. But >> yeah. Yeah. So 61 and 63 Prince Heidson Road. That would be 12 1.5 by 6 and a half. That would be uh I believe 75 ft.
>> Which one you saying? >> Uh that would be >> 61 and 63. Prince of Nightstone Road. >> That's CD NJ. It's 12 and 1/2 by >> 12 and 1 half by 6 and 1/2 >> 16 and 1/2 >> 6 and 1/2
>> and not to complicate things >> you've got area caps. >> No, but I should probably get sworn in first. >> Um we have the swearing in of all our professionals please. >> Yeah, if our professionals could raise their right hand, do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give to be
the truth? >> I do. Just if you can just go around, say your full name. David Novak, NOVAK, board planning consultant with Burgess Associates. Edward Snikus with Burgess Associates, board landscape architect.
>> Quasi Misu, traffic consultant or an associates. >> Francis Kuzzek, township engineer. >> And sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to caution everybody. It's not as easy as just multiplying the width by the height. The definition of sign area in
our ordinance when we deal with monument signs or signs like this is that it includes only the area that encloses the extreme limits of the lettering and the logo. It does not include the base and/or cap of the monument. So >> thank you. >> For example, if you're looking at the
elsewhere center um sign, that would only include the portion that's surrounding the text there. So the sides can be much larger in terms of width and height but still have a area that's less than what you would think it would be.
So sorry it turns from an algebra problem to a geometry problem to a calculus problem. >> And Jake while you're talking what what is the allowable for this zone? What is the allowable signage area? >> Absolutely. So uh the applicant actually
requires three variances. the allowable area for a what we call a monument sign in of this district. This would be more akin to a project tenant identification sign, but those are not identified as a permitted sign in the Princeton junction redevelopment area. So, we apply the
monument sign regulations to be a little bit more comprehensive. Uh the allowable area of a sign in that district would be 30 square feet. Yes, we also allow a maximum sign height of six feet and uh we only allow signs
for those buildings that have a setback of 50 ft from the right away. So there's three bars required, >> right? >> And that's discussed on page four of our memo. >> One sign you haven't mentioned is at 50 Princeton Heightstown Road and I think that actually conforms that would be I
think across the street from your site. Um it's the building that's set back from the street. There used to be a a tailor back there and I think another real estate agent. Do you guys know where I'm talking about >> the brick? >> I'm not familiar with the brick building across the street. That that's that that
ah the sign it's it's >> banker. >> Uh may maybe it's it's it's a smaller it's a much smaller sign. It probably does conform, >> but >> I would be want to throw I just wanted to throw that in there that not all of the signs along that section of roadway
are non-conforming. I just wanted to throw that up. >> I would be willing to bet that if we're talking about the Caldwell tonight. >> Yeah, I'm sorry. 50 >> flavor that I just want to >> No, I'm just I'm wondering if that was a uh sign that was there before the
adoption of the redevelopment plan because that building is set pretty >> doesn't change. >> Yeah, that building is set relatively close to the right ofway. So, theoretically, they wouldn't be allowed to have a sign under the new zoning regulations. I say new as in the RP7
district standards which have been adopted for years. But >> I I had one question. You have started off your um testimony. I'm not sure you have an expert witness there. >> I do have um my signage contractor who I
was going to call as well. >> Planner. >> I don't have an expert planner. >> All right. Well, you started off by characterizing the interior area as uh retail the interior. Can you tell us what the uses are within the interior?
>> Yeah. So, I also have my client who's going to be with us this evening and I was going to have him actually testify to the different uses that are happening within the shop. >> From my perspective, I know the site. I eat at Jersey Mike's and I have no problem finding it. number
one. And number two, you have offices in there. You have a dentist's office. >> There's some type of a tutoring uh office. And the units in the back, which look like a bunch of town houses together, which is also part of your
property. They had been given approval for um to to basically utilize businesses, I believe, on the first floor or within that area. >> Live work we call it. I'm sorry. >> They >> right. Has anything ever transpired?
I've never seen any signs back there. Do you know? >> My client is going to testify that. Yeah. >> Would you like >> Yeah. >> I'm sorry. >> Okay. So, your client's going to testify to that. >> Yeah. >> My from my perspective, you've mischaracterized what actually is in the rear there.
>> That's not That's not retail. Those are uses that people want to go to a dentist, you're looking up the dentist. You're not just driving by a street and say, "Oh, I'm going to pop into the the dentist because I see the sign." And the same by the same token, the um
the tutoring uh business that's there. Um so I think that's a mischaracterization. Number two, David, the signs that she has shown us, are they all um
were they before the ordinance uh was passed? I mean, are they comparable? You know, it's like, are we comparing apples to apples or were these uses I think they were some of them were way
before the U. I would imagine that 64 Princeton Heightstown Road as well as the CDNJ Professional Plaza. I would think that those are probably before the adoption of the ordinance. >> The Ellsworth Village Square, I'd be
surprised if that was adopted before the adoption of the redevelopment plan district. That looks like a relatively newer sign. >> Yeah. >> But chases them, >> right? >> That was before >> that predates. That predates. >> Yeah, that predates it. Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. So in terms of comparables, these
signs are totally they were not part of what we were doing right now. >> No. Uh but we did request that analysis anyway >> and and I understand that but >> you know in terms of substantial detriment to the public good which they'll have to touch upon. One of the
things that we looked like at is whether or not this sign for a lack of a better phrase sticks out like a sore thumb in this district. Oh, okay. The other the other question I have is you're using the term Princeton Ascent. Is there any name on the building
currently that has Princeton Ascent? >> To my to my knowledge, there is no name on the building currently. It's simply just the facade and it's the brick and then the >> right. So, by well, I'm not sure whether you're going to be causing more confusion or anything by using that name
Princeton at the sense since number one, you're not Princeton. Number two, it's essentially um I think I think in a sense it's a little misleading because nobody like for
example the uh the uh one of 64 Princeton Heisttown number one that's the market that's a hu that's a very large I mean it's a huge shopping center it's hardly comparable
to what you have and certainly they do need a sign of that nature. Yours is very uh it doesn't compare at all in terms of retail to that.
Alan, how does how does this how does that situation using the words Princeton Ascend at Palm sign different than CDN J professional plaza down the street >> or the Ellsworth Village Square and then all the names underneath it? >> Well, Ellsworth Village Square every
well people about my age know Ellsworth. >> No, but I mean like CDJ I mean there's not a company called CDJ. I I'll just say that's Prince. Yeah, that's Princeton descent. It's a different in terms from CDJ. CDJ, I have
no idea where they got that name from. And um you know, >> I mean, I just don't see a difference between Princeton Ascent having that on their sign compared to CDNJ Professional Plaza on its sign down the street. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not terribly
objecting to that. What I am objecting to is the characterization of this as a retail center. >> Okay. >> I just sorry to interrupt. I don't recall using the I believe I characterized as a mis mixeduse building. So if I misspoke and use the
word retail >> and you would you describe what was happening in that you used it as a retail. Those are retail uses back there which they are. >> I'm sorry to interrupt. I mean the flip side of that is you know a little bit
about the business. No retail establishment will rent in the back unless they are guaranteed that there's a sign on the road. I'm surprised that uh the sub shop went there because uh sub shop would want front >> facing sign right on the building.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Saying come in the back. The sign says entrance in the back. Uh the facade >> jersey Mike says entrance from the back or come in the back something like that. I don't remember exactly the entrance for Jersey Mike in the back. So when I
first went there I was surprised that they even rented there because there's no sign fronting on the road. No retail establishment would >> and I I understand that and that's why you have professional office in the back and that's why you have um the tutoring
in the back. Yeah, but that's >> and that's that's I believe part of the reason and I'm not saying that there should be no disability. What I'm saying is from my my perspective as a planner this is pretty
it it's too much signage I think. Uh I mean I think when you're getting up to 12 feet for a monument sign it's like really stretching what the definition of a monument sign is. To me, that's almost a uh a freestanding site where you're
getting up that high. And I think in terms of the actual size itself, if it were cut down in size, you could still fit the number of tenants. I think how many tenants are you showing out of sign? Seven. >> Seven. >> Seven. >> You can certainly
>> proportionately >> do that. You can fit it on a smaller >> sign. But the other signs are also 12 and 14 inches. I mean, it's not these are not smaller, >> but again, they're not a lot of them aren't comparable.
>> So, Alan, I'm going to go a different tack on that. Um, let's go to let's I'm coming down uh the Princeton Heightstown Road about to go over the bridge. >> Yes. And I there's the Ellsworth sign on the right side right after the traffic
light. But going at the legal speed limit, you the lettering is still too small to read. >> Oh yeah, that >> but you're about to hear my point though. At traveling through that intersection, you you can read Duncan, but that's about all you can.
And when you're stopped at the traffic light, yes, you can see it as well, right? you can see if you're stopped at the traffic light and you're looking at >> which does happen frequently >> but but but my point is is that that um most of the time or like in this case of
Princeton Ascend that you'd be going by at at uh the speed limit and so your your eyes need a certain height of lettering to be able to take it in. >> So that's why I'm I'm okay with this monument sign. I don't see it that different than the CDN JSON which is
126. I >> I see a difference because I I I think what's going to happen then is you're going to start seeing that same type of sign coming up along the the road. People well you can't site this as
precedence if you were to approve this but you know applicants will say oh look at this they're getting this huge sign and we're going to do the same thing. we want to come in as the same thing and they'll come in with that argument. While that's not legally binding certainly,
>> do you consider the CDJ sign at at its dimensions a huge sign? >> Um CDJ in the context of No, in this context as if you're just basically doing you
comparing the uh the lettering area, I think it's it it works. Maybe I'm used to it at this point in time. It's been there for >> very long time, >> like 10 years, 15 years. >> But the thing is also when you come out with a CDJ sign and you go to turn
right, you're going in with the traffic. The way this sign is placed, you're going to be cutting across the traffic and you've got to deal with looking at the sign. That's >> Yeah, that's that. And that traffic along I71 through there is not always
the slowest traffic. >> So or emergency vehicles, anything coming through, you might not catch it as you're trying to cut across traffic. The rendering that Foreman prepared is helpful for that because you can see that if you're a driver, you're nobody's going to stop there. When you're making
any kind of a turn, this is far enough back that you are going to have the perspective. You're going to have the you to be able as a driver to be able to >> to me it's still a deterrent >> to have that sign where you have to cross trap.
>> Why Why is the lettering so big saying Princeton Ascend? What What is that? >> What >> uh I can ask my signage contractor to speak about the um intent of the design if he would like to hear that testimony. Whatever. because I mean in that area it
there's a lot of traffic >> especially right now >> um and and I also don't see any any numbers like like if you look at the CDNJ sign um it has 61 and 63 address and also for for police fire emergency
services there's there's no like address there's no number there um if someone's looking for the businesses I don't know if the businesses are saying in the principal sense center. That's part of what all those businesses say. They just
give out an address and it you hope people find it because it's kind of small. >> Okay. Um yeah, to the extent that there's, you know, design feedback, I'd be happy to talk to my client with work with the township professionals to make it something that's um more appealing for the township because I understand
what you're saying about the the need for numbers for your police and fire to be able to identify the building. >> Can I go back to your comment? picture. >> Your stop line is here, which is in line with the sign. >> So, you've got to be stopped further
back. You can't roll forward and walk around and you've got a crosswalk there. So, I thought that this was helpful for the perspective that in my opinion as someone who would be in a car. To me, that would be easy for you to be able to
look to the left and to the right and be able to >> I've come in and out of there many times. And I just seem to feel that it's it's a little difficult to turn left even without the sign. Um, so the location of the sign, I mean,
there's really, as far as the site, I don't know that there's another um, location that would accommodate um, you know, on this. It is a tight site. That's kind of part of the physical circumstances of the property that are leading us to be making a
variance application. >> And if you look at exhibit B, sorry to interrupt. If you look at exhibit B, uh this is the prior site plan that was submitted before this board back in 2016. Um there was a sign that was originally
proposed in that application and then it was ultimately withdrawn. However, if you look at the corner there where that sign is, southwesterly corner, uh the plan still includes the Ashtto sight line. So the sign is out of that sight line.
We made sure of checking of that before uh during the TRC process. >> I don't have a side triangle >> which is good. >> I I I understand Sue's safety concern of that and so that's what I that's that was one of the things that we brought up right away during the TRC >> the TRC
>> during the TRC conversation. Yeah. Anytime you put up a large sign like that. >> Yeah. You you we'll swear you in. You'll get your chance. Augusta, do you have anything more to say at this time? Um, I would just like to reserve just to be able to make a few remarks, but I know that in the interest of time, I do want to bring up my signage contractor who
talked about the design as well as my client to just talk about the difficulties his tenants have had with >> understood >> not having signage at this location. Um, would you like to go first or would you like to go first? >> Can we swear them? Uh, Jerry, can we swear both of them in at the same time? >> Yeah, yes, we will. And and just for the
record, um, we talked about the five exhibits. They're certainly all in evidence. >> I I didn't hear that actually. I'm sorry. >> The five exhibits A through E are are all in evidence. >> Oh, great. Thank you. >> So, we're going to Please, gentlemen,
please stand up to be sworn in. But is he going to see all you're also going to testify? >> Okay. Yeah. Please stand up. >> Please. >> Yeah. I'm going to swear you both in. If you both No. If you could stand up, if you could raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm the testimony about to
give be the truth? So stone. So sworn or affirmed, if you could state your full name and spell your last name. And sir, why don't we start with you in the front? >> My name is C H I A N. >> Thank Howard. >> Howard.
>> Thank you. >> And the spelling of the last name? >> J I N. >> All right. Thank you. One of the issues that I wanted to um cover is the intent behind the design of the sign. If you could just tell the board um thinking behind why it was
created the way it was and what elements you pull from u Mr. Jin building to be able to inspire the creation. >> He's um he's testifying as an expert on signage. Correct. >> Correct. >> Why don't you qualify him, please?
So, I've been working in the sign business for like seven years now out of Philadelphia. I've been involved in design uh creation of mostly pylon signs and monument signs. This is a freestanding sign which is can be go
both ways as far as this one is a monument because of its height, but it looks like a little pilot. In your seven years um in the sign business, how many? >> Yeah. >> Thousands.
>> Thousands. Okay. Um have you testified? Okay. Um is there any more? >> We we accept. Thank um you speak to the intended that behind the sign. >> So when I met Mr. Jim Michael, I came to
the the location and I looked at this the where the possibilities of putting a sign at his location. The this the actual location was chosen already before I got there. Um I know we you had concern
about the sign being in sight of the stop. It it really this picture doesn't do that justice. It's from a different angle. This the sign the stop sign is quite a few feet ahead of that. I know it's hard to show you on this picture, but it is.
>> So the corner of the sign is actually set further back >> sign. >> So no, >> this picture shows if I you're right because the angle from which I took it. If you stand like this, the the stop
sign is is ahead of the the edge of the sign quite a bit. >> I'm just I'm just, >> you know, you'd have to see it to believe me maybe, but but this picture doesn't do it justice in a sense.
>> Um, so the design of the sign generally I've done this type of sign in many locations. Um in fact um this sign comes from the pylon design. It's a sign that is has got a
long a lot of longevity but it is not a circle Christmas tree. It is nice and clean. It has letters that are fairly sizable but not big. The um it is done on black and white
with a what they call backup routed out backup system which will light not bright at night but it'll be nice at night. But black and white during the day is e much easier to read. If you go any smaller than this with a 40 m an
hour it's hard to read that and it's not by a stop. It's not by a a traffic light. And I'm not going to I I just want to make a comment what what Mr. Shel said. Um there are tenants in there. I mean
I'm off the record here. All those tenants that I I do signs for them as well in in in shopping centers in retail. It's a retail environment that they operate under. They try and get their name out there uh by signage
and that's how they get clients. Not only just by people knowing that. Okay, just to revert back. I just had to say that only because I'm in the sign business and I know what people get with the signage and what the intentions are.
Um, the size is not big in in the it's big for you. So, let's get that out the way, but it's not huge in the sense of obnoxious or overbearing. it. Uh, it's hard to see on pictures like this
because we we're actually putting it in the picture. It's a picture that's not 2D at all. It's just a single face picture. When you put another piece on it, it's just flat. Um, but the size was chosen so that it is readable and that's
the the real reason for that. letters and how to >> well the side the size of the letters or the sign of each panel is created at that size that it's readable. It won't be readable from far, but it'll
be readable much easier from just coming upon it as opposed to some of these signs are so small and you can't you will struggle to read them and many across all over uh different locations. Even at shopping centers just to
accommodate tenants, they'll make a sign this big and you can't see it. Basically the article is about fast. >> So So that is the prison is the name of the building. That's what it is. It's
not I mean we could make that smaller, >> but it's just aesthetically pleasing at that size. That doesn't mean we have to go with that, but that's what it is. The sign itself is halo lit. Are you familiar with the terminology halo lit? How does it just
explain what that is? >> So head means at night the face does not light up. >> It it has light that shoots out the back towards in this case um it's an aluminum backing and the light will shine and
create a halo going around the letter. So it's it's not bright. It doesn't shine in anyone's face, but it's a sort of standard above when it comes to lighting up letters. >> And are the tenant the the tenants one through seven is that is there lighting
for those elements of the sign? >> Yes, there'll be lighting. So, they are back lit. >> Exactly. So, it's a panel and it's routed out letters. So, it's it's it's not a cheaper version. It's a decent sign and then it's backed up with acrylic. So, and it I've done a lot of
these and it's it's gone very far. >> What if what is the height of the letters posted for each of the tenants? >> You know what? I don't I don't have it in front of >> I just got to see what the I don't know
if we got the actual light the um it's a square tube. They are probably and and I'm looking at it probably seven to eight inches high. >> Seven to eight inches. And u in the
signs along the road for example the CDJ. What is the height of those letters? >> I don't know the height of the >> And you know the height of the letters of >> So I'm sorry I I don't want to I'm
talking about the tenants, right? Yeah, the tenants, >> not the Princeton. The Princeton's are bigger. >> No, I'm talking about >> Sorry about the tenants. Tenant tenant identification. I just >> saying that it's seven eight inches for this, >> right? >> And for the Woolre market, do you have
any ideas to what height? >> Do you have any ideas to what the height is for Ellsworth? >> I just know they're small. >> Well, they're small, right? But what's this quadratizes? Because my point is that if your letters are basically the same as some of the
others, you know, that's >> I I don't believe that they are. I don't believe that they're really much larger than what's out there. >> So, to answer that question, if we made that smaller than that, you won't read
them. I mean, that's the reason. >> So, if you made them five inches, you're saying people aren't going to be able to read. >> Oh, yeah. Five in most of it gets like this. >> I know what five inches is. Yes. >> No, I get it. But from 5 in from far, you can't read.
>> So 5 in. So you're saying 7 in then you can read doing 40 miles an hour. >> Well, I'd have to give you the actual but but it it it's readable from that from further away. Let's put it that way. I know you're comparing, but it is
more clarity. When you make a when you cut a sign out from a when you route out a sign or even if you put it as a vinyl, 5 in is small >> and seven in is >> is bigger. It's bigger. >> No, but I mean it's bigger. It's easier
to read. I know it's not semantics. It's true. >> Well, I I understand that. I know we spent two years working on signage ordinance way back that council never um
approved, but during all that uh work that we did, we had um signage lettering based on miles per hour of the roof. So if you had a high-speed road like Route
One, the the size of the lettering on signs on Route One were larger than ones on a 25 mph road. >> Yeah. I mean, so the Princon ascent is a bigger letter
in this case as we see. So when someone is pulling up to Prince and Ascent, at least the sign of 7 to 8 in high in letters is easier to read as they're pulling up who's in there, you know, and
and and so yes, it's not obnoxious, but it's easier to read. From my experience and the sign business, >> that small amount makes a big difference. >> Yeah. um thanks to Chad GPD. Um so 7 in
sign it's roughly 1 in per 10 ft at 40 m hour. So to 7 in sign it will be visible from 70 ft. You need to go get close 70 ft closer to read it. So I I don't think even 7 in you will be
able to read if you're driving very fast. So, >> um, got that's >> Howard, is there anything else for us to, uh, that you present to us >> from your perspective?
>> There was something that I don't remember. There was something else I wanted to say that question about. >> So, so each seven signs will be same size. There's no one big sign and five.
>> No, they all >> the same size. >> Consistent. It's 10. It's one through seven. It's consistent height. >> I mean, I can make the sound bigger if you want, but >> no. No. I mean, we're trying to look in this case almost steal a little bit of
without being obnoxious about it. I think it's just concern. We want the businesses to be successful, right? We And we want people getting there not to be frustrated because once you pass by, boy, you're in the middle by the train station and the bridge. >> There's no easy way to turn around.
>> Yeah. There there there isn't. So, um it just to me when I just look at this, it just seems like Princeton Ascend is this is all too big. Maybe the tenants names, you know, the businesses should be a little bigger. Um, so people just don't
miss it. Um, >> to the extent that there are any design changes the board would like to see in order to approval, I'm happy to discuss it with my client. I I think that, as I said at the beginning of my presentation, the intent here is to make sure that this
that my client's tenants have this ability. You know, as it was just brought up, that is a treacherous road to try and turn around on. So, you want to be able to make sure that people are getting in there and can see it and know that they're going to Princeton ascend and don't have that issue um going to
get rerouted if they miss the shots. >> Yeah. >> Are the tenants what what address are the tenants using? >> So, that I'll put on that's as far as as far as the the I always put at some point we'll put up a number on the if there's no number on the building because a lot of these buildings have
their own number. I'm not sure if it's got a number, but I'll we put on numbers on the side or aesthetically pleasing to what the owner wants the the address number of the building. Always do that.
>> See the in this case, there's a good chance I'll be putting it on the um brick. >> He's uh pointing that bottom portion of the style. That's where a lot of people put their their identification
>> their um >> you know we could put we could put another place >> landscaping in front of it like these look like impatients you know they start this size and by the end of the summer they're >> well that's true too but >> then then it would cover it so I wouldn't want it to be >> No no that's true too but but it can be
managed if that was the case. >> Yeah. Um, I can put it on the side. A lot of times we can put it on the on the um up and down north south on the side. So, a lot of people put it there. I'm just telling you people put
I don't see anything on the but I know what you're saying. It is it is common. I want to the tenants, but are the tenants telling their their clients and customers um we're in the Princeton Ascend shopping
area? Like are they saying that? I don't know what they're saying. >> They might how are they identifying this prince Princeton ascend is very big compared to the tenants here. So that's all I'm saying. I I don't know. Well, CDNJ is bigger than the the it sign the the
content the tenants. >> See, >> what she's in emergency services. So, what she's saying is put numbers like this. So, emergency services if you say >> 64 that's not a that's that's that will be
established and that's a problem. And the other comment you heard is if you said West Windsor Ascend, you will get more support than Princeton as so >> it is Princeton. >> Yeah, I hate to break it to you guys. There's a lot of things named Princeton
in this community from an outsers perspective. >> This picture here of your sign. What I'm curious about is >> number on the bottom just because my eyesight right it's on the bottom. Do you have >> which sheet?
>> Decide a >> Oh, okay. >> Go ahead. Do you have >> do you have any plans to relocate any of those poles? >> Yeah. So that there is an intent for those polls >> and where are those poles going to end
up being? >> So uh that would be more appropriate question. So one of the post here I think it's temporary that belongs to the neighboring problem. >> The one in the back. >> Yeah the one it looks temporary.
>> Okay. >> And the other one I think belongs to PSNG and last time when we were discussing and Fran mentioned that the county road will be improved. So, uh maybe uh your
team could help to uh relocate with the county to relocate this pole >> because if this pole doesn't get relocated, it kind of >> takes >> takes away from your sign. You can't see
the tenants. You can't see. What I can say is that just in case you know Brandon and his team can't do it, we can pay PSNG to do the relocation. >> Francis, do you have some thoughts on this polls?
>> Yes. >> Thank you. >> So during the TRC uh when we were looking at this application, I pulled up the county's plan for the reconstruction
of Inston Heightstown Road in this area and looking at the um the placement only exhibit where everything the signs farther away the smaller image not the blowup image. You'll notice in the
bottom view that the curb line in front of the neighboring property is a lot further out in the road than the curb line in front of Princeton Heightstown Road. So eventually when Princeton Heightstown Road gets improved, this curb line will go back in front of
the adjacent property. And also when that happens, that utility pole you're concerned about uh gets relocated um on that property because some underground utility work that the county has to do there to reconstruct some of
the the drainage connections into the county system. Um, last I heard from the county, they uh are working through some uh final easement acquisitions. Uh, I don't know
yet when they're going to be announcing a bid date, but the the Princeton Heightstown Road project is going to be in two phases. The first phase being between Granberry Road and Alexander Road. So this area, this strip and this
property will be in that first phase. So that utility pole relocation would happen sooner rather than later in relation to the overall project. Um but eventually yes that that pole will be getting moved uh I believe further away
from the driveway. Um so but that's that's my thoughts about that. Sure. You said >> because this property line is further out, they're going to be moving it back.
>> The curb line. Yes, the curb line. Right. So, the the sidewalk is kind of about where the the curb line's going to be. >> Oh, you see closer to the road now than it is in their plans originally.
Not not really because when you look in front of their property, their plan already shows the curb line in the correct location in the final location. So in relation to where their stop line is, where their curb line is for their driveway, none of that's going to change. It's the neighboring property
where the changes are going to happen. >> Is it going to put the sight triangle different? Is it going to make that different? No, because again their um their driveway isn't really changing from where it is today. It's the
neighboring property where things are getting pushed back, >> but the road is going to come closer to the sign. >> Not in front of Mr. Jyn's property, not in front of Princeton Heights Road. >> This property over here is going to
bring that line in more. Right. >> Yes. Yes. But they're also the countyy's also establishing shoulders whatnot. So the edge of the road and the curb line is not going to be where the cars are traveling. If that's what your concern
is, >> where the cars are supposed to because if they're ready to turn in there, they're going to be off the >> Well, the difference is there's going to be three lanes. Right now there's only two lanes in front of this property with huge shoulders. In the upcoming project,
there'll be three lanes with one lane in each direction and a center turn >> center, right? A center turn lane. >> The middle is a turning lane. >> Correct. >> Shared in both directions. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Right. So, anybody waiting to turn left will be in that waiting turn lane rather than stopping traffic
>> in in the opposite direction. Correct. >> Coming the other way. >> They Right. Coming the other way. coming from the high school, they could turn right into the >> drive closer to the explain what I'm saying. They're going to cut closer in here to
go in. Correct. If you're traveling >> uh not well, compared to is today as in this photo. Yes. That shoulder line and that lane will be closer to >> the side
>> the buildings. Yes. Correct. So what what he's saying is this is going to be a shoulder a bike shoulder. So the actual lane you actual distance you turn in is not going to change. So
if you have to move like six feet now to turn in the lane. >> My question is when you're turning left out of that driveway are you cutting down that line even more? No, because the as your already said this has already been what they provide back.
Let me let me give you >> right the location of the sign is in accordance with the approved and it's really the type of sign that you're >> It gets a little confusing >> because if you look at the site plan they included in exhibit B, they're showing the curb line and the
adjoining property already kind of lined up with where it's supposed to be. But if you look at the and this is nobody's fault because >> because that shows the existing condition. Exactly. So it's not necessarily misleading. It just shows the existing conditions where the site
plan shows what that future condition would be. >> Yeah, I think Mob is correct and we applied for the construction I think back back in 2016 or 2017 already at that time the county was
planning the road alignment and then we already took everything into consideration. So the plan that Mr. Novak has was based on the plan of county road you know
reconstruction what uh improvement and the location of the monument sign is marked on the plan that has already taken the uh road improvement into consideration. >> Okay. >> What's timeline
for the for the the uh county's project >> with the roads? Do we have any idea? You know, >> I mean, I don't want to you don't want to put up a sign that needs electricity for the backlighting and you have you have this and like would >> Well, as Mr. As Mr. Jyn said, that
temporary power is for the adjacent property. That's not for Mr. Jyn's property or for where the sign is going to go. >> It's It's in front of It's in front of the uh the building next door.
>> Yes. Yes. Yeah. >> In front of 47th Princeton H. The VCC property if you remember VCC. >> Yeah. The daycare is I believe that was a zoning board application. >> So okay. >> Yeah. The county was supposed to go to
bid last year. Um I think the state wants some permit that there's no Indian remains or some silly permit the state wants. So county is waiting for that permit. I spoke to S. He's optimistic it will be done this year, but you never
know. I mean, no Indian has been there for 200 years. So, >> does the board have any more questions for either Howard or Michael as they're at the mic? >> Yeah, I I just have a question. Just following up on what Linda has said. It
seems like the the term Princeton Ascend that's taking up a large portion of your sign where you're supposed to be you want to you want to have the sign for your tenants. From my perspective, I think
that the uh that the Princeton and the Ascend that can be narrowed and you know basically you'd be losing you know square footage. But it won't take away from the sentence itself.
>> That was going to be my I was actually going to ask that same question. If if you were to reduce the size of the phrase Princeton and Ascend, uh, but still leave enough room maybe for the address number. What width do
you think he can get that sign to the maybe 10 feet or so? >> Oh, the width. It's 10 feet now, right? I thought it was 12. Uh, oh, no, I'm sorry. The the base of the of the base of the uh the >> So, the base is two feet, right?
>> Yeah, the base is 2 feet >> and then the actual sign >> is a 10ft width. You're right. I'm sorry. I was looking at the footing. >> I could redesign Princeton ascent if that is something that you want to do. >> Do we want to make that smaller? Do we
want to give them bigger panels? I I'm I'm just saying would argue the fact of the seven I could make them 10 in high. >> Well, you're the ordinance itself requires 30 square feet and if you want to fit tenants on that that's obviously
never going to happen. >> You're up to 100 square ft. I think that there is some middle ground that can be reached and particularly as David was saying and as I'm saying and as Linda had said if you're reducing the
Princeton ascent you are going to reduce something off of it. I don't know what that is. I don't have any measurements here. >> Okay. I mean that I mean that's up that is not my call but it can be done. >> It just has a potential and you're right it is 10. I was looking at the footing in the foundation. I think it's 12 ft
wide. >> Yes. the proposed sign on your right from edge to edge is 10 feet. If you were to reduce the size of printed and ascend and have the still have room for the address um what width you can get that shrunken down to if it would be potentially maybe 8 ft wide or something along those lines.
>> Yeah, I mean >> I I would not want you to reduce the the height of the tenant lettering. I think 7 in is kind of small already quite frankly for a 40 m per hour road. So we're talking about now 30 in of width
where for argument sake where a sand is in right >> and 18 in in width for Princeton. I can you know I could bring them down to is the top fine >> again you have to bring that down.
>> Okay. So, I'm just >> I was focused more honestly I was focused more on the width of the sign because there's also been discussions about >> the proximity of that sign to the the sight triangle. If it's even possible to narrow the width, push it a little bit further down. >> Yes, I can take it down to probably
20 in or even smaller if you want, but then it starts getting tiny. The letters get tiny, the address will get tiny. You want big you want big numbers on there, right? >> You could also put the address on the building itself. Well, that's true right there. >> Yeah. I mean, they were just on the
concerns of if you want on the on the pylon or on the monument, they could put it on there. I >> I'm going to I'm going to to this mix already. I'm going to even throw out yet another idea. >> Um if could could you please come here?
>> So, and give one for the table in front of me. So my my frustration my frustration with uh the word ascend is that you have it descending uh the sign. And so my suggestion is that the a
that you turn it 180 degrees >> so that the ascend starts with the a at the bottom and goes up as opposed to what you have on your exhibit. >> Are you following me? >> No, I'm follow I'm following you because we have done. So ascend reads up.
>> So basically here >> no starts at the bottom instead but the word ascend arise >> going up as opposed to going downward. >> Okay. So that's correct but and that's
using the name that the ascend is what's giving you that idea. Right. So my and also with with this with the suggestion we sign the bottom the letters are on the same side of same relation to the u to the tenants.
>> So that so >> Jim you understand you understand. >> No I understand I understand what you're saying. >> Yeah. >> So I don't know if that's acceptable to you but >> what what the one other idea since we're talking about ascend is what what if you had the word ascend go go go vertically like this way instead of it being
slanted? You mean like mean like >> the same as Princeton? The same way Princeton's >> right. >> Yeah, that's that's all my idea wouldn't work with that because you'd still be looking at the letters. >> It would not.
>> Yeah. I'm just throwing it out right now. Yeah. >> I was going to say, does the board understand my suggestion? >> We don't. Do you? >> I get the concept. I just don't want to see the word ascend decent. >> Oh, I guess that that's my point. >> That's to me that's
>> it's not about the size of building. It's about the placement. >> Can I can I just ask a question? Are people looking for the building that's called Princ? Are they going to look for the tenant? >> Let's do something. In my opinion, I would be looking for
about the days of development. >> But the people that live there, people that live there, that's a name of the bird. That's a name of a burden. Narrow the width. You make smaller letters. You've still got the ID Princ.
and then make it more narrow and put the tenants right underneath >> the bigger bigger that would be a harm. >> I'm sorry. Yeah, the reason is that you know words very hard there and if you
make it you know small letters I think that such and between us and the sign or stand up and then you know Mr. that power that that
so many >> I was just giving you another >> that would be similar to Ellsworth center because Ellsworth center has Ellsworth and then it has uh village square under it
>> that's a that's a bigger board >> I'm just >> right but I'm I'm I'm just making the point of uh how it looks not >> not dimensions.
>> Yeah. When you have one main >> um so uh uh does anyone have any other questions for uh Howard or Michael right now? Okay. um our professionals have not
reported yet, but uh I'm very concerned that there's been so many uh suggestions and considerations. Uh I'm I'm concerned that uh it's too
nebulous now to act upon as as a uh to try to you know conditions and all that stuff. So, I'm wondering if at this point in the proceedings if you as the applicant would take everything that you've heard and seen and come back to
us at a future at a future meeting. >> It would uh because it it's very nebulous right now. the the board has made many suggestions going in different directions. Yeah. >> That we would want you to to consider. Um you know the concerns of the board.
You've heard us very clearly the concerns of the board. What my my request of you is to just take all this in and come back to us when you're ready. >> I don't I I'm I don't have that ability to make that.
>> Oh, no. So we we will we we will schedule you as soon as possible. >> Yeah, it would be it would be as you as soon as but also giving you enough time to represent to >> if it was the 20th we would need everything in by the 10th which might be a little bit of a tight >> turnaround.
>> So maybe maybe early early June >> and they wouldn't have to notice. >> No no that's my question to you Jerry. Would they have to? >> No they would. This would it's not that it's being withdrawn or denied. It's being continued and and there'll be a recent issue made to India.
>> Changes. >> Yes. The the the our representatives are are are accessible to you. >> Okay. >> Uh >> well, do we should we put something? >> Well, we're not it's going to be
continued. We're not we're not making we're not taking any action. Just want to make sure do we have the list of what >> for them? >> I I I've been writing some notes and I think a lot of the discussion points have focused on not to be too broad but the the size of the sign and ways to
potentially alter that and reduce that whether it be width or height. Uh my two cents would probably be width quite frankly. Um and that could be done through adjustments to the lettering of printed and ascend while also still adding or allowing some space for an address sign. Uh the other thing that's
been brought up that might be related to the width of the sign or the size of the sign is that setback from the stop sign. Um granted it is that of that sight triangle, but just reassessing that especially with the county changes, making sure that that is >> safe. Um >> safety >> bends, you know, it might be a two birds
one zone. If you reduce the width of the sign, you get that extra maybe foot or two further away from the intersection of the driveway and the street. But that's something we can talk about with the professions. So the the size of the the tenants lettering >> of the >> should that >> oh of the tenant lettering as well.
>> Think that through again. Think that through. >> Yeah, >> that's you know >> and the >> the address the address of the property it seems to me putting it on that sign just uses valuable space that can can be used for the other purposes we're
talking about and just put it on the building. So it seems >> the name >> the address the the No, no, the address. >> Yeah. >> Is there a record that >> actually going to be draft notes from
Zoom after this? I believe so. >> I think what makes sense is to have them testify tonight. Um I >> I'd like to wait on that for the next meeting. Um and thank you for coming out tonight and I know it's probably been frustrating for you as tenants because I
know you want your name on the street and I I so understand that. So, but because of the the the concerns of the board tonight, I I um I think it would be incorrect to take definitive action on this. >> And but allow you time and time and
place to to understand our concerns as a planning board and to come back to us. >> Okay. I I knew that you weren't going to take um action on I just thought maybe you want to get to us on the record, but >> No, we we'll we'll do that at at the next at the next meeting. Um, I was gonna say, Michael, Michael, you
understand our our approach tonight and why we're we're delaying that. I just want to make sure that's you understand that. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, um, at this time, uh, we're going to take a fivem minute break. Wait, >> let me finish. We're going to take a
fiveminut break to allow the next applicant to put get all their exhibits ready and to have the board have its materials in place. Do you want to say something? >> Yeah. Yeah. Jerry, since we don't have a fixed date for them, do do they need to notice?
>> No. >> No, it it'll be carried um what what I think we should do. Well, I think we should carry it to um the 20th just for purposes of identifying at that point what the actual date will be. >> Okay. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> So, Augusta, do you need any more clarification on our approach now >> as Oh, I understand that the reason for the continuence. I just want to make sure that everything that was brought up tonight that I, you know, can make sure that I work with um Mr. Chin and
>> and likewise if you feel free to contact our our representatives. >> Perfect. Yep. Mr. Novak has been very generous with the time. Sorry. >> So, we're going to take a we're going to take a five minute break while we change uh applicants. >> Uh oh, Cardiff. Yeah,
>> I do understand. I do understand what I said. I thought it was so I live above my office as well.
50 is the closest. >> I always told my I always told my dentist as me so when I when I sit in the chair like it's amazing.
>> Yeah. you know, make sure I get this right. So, We're going to move this car once again. helpful. >> I'm like that's Oh, that's it. >> So now we have
something coming out. Yes, it is. My dad. >> Okay. Well, thanks for that information. So, I'll talk to them soon when they're gonna be writing you. Okay, thank you. in the past.
It's okay. I took some of your Did I take some of your stuff? >> No. No. For the last application. that I don't need that, right? >> I'm just trying to separate yourself. >> But you understood what I did with
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Why not get out? Did you guys even talk about that? >> Don't mess. >> Oh, that's Gentlemen, are you ready? You ready? >> I don't get that.
>> Similar to last time, I really want the same. >> Sure. Okay. That's a time >> question. Yeah. >> That's how I differ for >> bike. We're waiting for one more board member
to come back. Thank you. We had this conversation at TRC. She can support. Oops. the one what we just got. This is the >> We'll find out. We'll find out. >> That's what I'm trying. >> Okay. At this time, we'll uh
>> Welcome back to part two of the uh Westminster Township Planning Board. We'll now review PB26-02 Market Fair Tenant Improvements. >> Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Uh Jeffrey Chang, law firm of Fox Roth from Princeton. Yep. Uh before Mr. Chang
starts, proof of publication and service are in order and the board has jurisdiction. >> Perfect. >> I always forget to say >> yeah, my first line on my ally says, "Please confirm you have jurisdiction and notice adequate." So, thank you, Mr. U Councelor Muller. Um so again, Jeff Jeff Chang, uh we're on here on behalf
of Teachers Insurance Annuity Association, owner of block uh 7.15, lot 14.04 uh in West Windsor. It's also known as 3535 US Highway 1, Princeton, New Jersey. uh known as Market Fair Mall. Uh the property is currently improved with the existing Market Fair
Mall consisting of approximately 280,695 square feet, associated parking uh and driveway access to Route One. Uh this evening we're here uh applying for a preliminary final site plan approval uh reaffirming uh C variance and design
waiver relief um to do some internal and external remodeling for the mall. Uh we have some exciting tenants that uh we'd like to share with you guys. Um and my team will also discuss the signage improvements uh hardscape and landscape improvements as part of this application. Uh specifically there's two
building additions approximately 274 ft in size and also 145 ft in size uh and also 140 foot vestibule uh and some landscape islands in the parking area. Um just for housekeeping there were pre-existing bulk variance relief that
was granted. We are I guess diminishing dimminismously uh mitigating it pursuant to western code section 200-201A7 deviation for maximum improvement coverage where 60% is the maximum permitted 77.95 is existing. We're
taking it down to 77.94. Uh and then also we're seeking a design waiver from Westminer code section 200-27B one deviation for minimum number of parking stalls where 1,46 spaces are required 12,000 oh sorry uh yeah 1,210
are existing uh and were previously approved and we're bringing it down to 1184. Uh we have traffic count and reports and also we'll have testimony explaining the uh reasoning for the reduction and that we don't believe that'll be affecting uh the uh center at all. So, with that being said, I have a
number of professionals this evening. Uh, I deferred to the board how you would like to swear them in. >> We're going to swear in all the professionals uh for the applicant as well as our own professionals. We swear everyone in at the same time.
>> We have one shot. Still one shot. >> You're good. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. We swear. >> Yep. If if everybody who's going to testify um could stand. >> Yes.
>> Except all professionals. Um if you raise your right hand, do you swear or affirm the testimony about to give will be the truth? >> I do. >> So from starting with the the board professionals, if you could just state your full name and then we'll go to the professionals for the applicant and I'll
ask you each to state your full name and spell your last name. But Quasi, why don't you start? >> Quasi. Mu, traffic consultant, last name M O D. Francis Guzzk, tan engineer. >> David Novak, N Ov,
uh, board planning consultant with Burgess Associates. >> Ed Snikus, SNI EK US. I'm a board landscape architect with Burgess Associates. >> Rob Astraloff, Bowler Engineering, OST
LF, uh, landscape architect. Oh, just I'm I'm sorry. Hold on. O S T E R >> L O F >> L O F. Okay. And you're the landscape archite. >> Okay. Should I >> qualify them now? No. When they put them, we'll qualify them.
>> Ben Crowder, C R O WDE R applicant, civil engineer with Bowler. >> Oh, thank you. >> Anthony Pino, P A L I N O, general manager of market fair.
John Tyikina T ai K I N A All things planning and development. >> I'm sorry I didn't I didn't catch that again. Could you say your last name? >> Iina. T is in Thomas. A I K is in Kelly. I N is in Nicholas A.
>> And your position? >> I'm the planner. >> Oh, the planner. Okay. Thank you. >> Ian Ramos. R A M O U S. And I am an architect with Westark Design Studio. Thank you. >> May I proceed?
>> Uh, yes, you may. Thank you. >> Perfect. So, my first witness I like to have is Anthony Pelino, uh, general manager for Market Fair. I think it'd be nice to just explain, uh, how the center is operating, you know, why we're asking for these improvements, what kind of tenants that we can disclose uh, this
evening. Um, so I'd like to talk about that. You also, just as a housekeeping, you received all those exhibits reduced 8 by11. Those are the ones that we're being later this evening. Correct. >> It's part of our submission package. It was just a handy reference for you guys for this evening.
>> Thank you. >> So, with that said, Anthony, could you come up qualify him? Counselor, >> please. >> I'll talk. >> So, Anthony, if you just give uh your background u if >> he's not appearing he's not testifying
as an expert, is he >> or just operational? Yeah, I mean you could give background information about it, but we but we're not going to qualify it. >> So you uh hit on a couple points of you know why we're here this evening in terms of the the tenants that were uh
going to be added to the the property um highlight the refues um gates things of that nature the board might be interested based on the comments that we have to the TRC. >> Okay, again my name is Anthony Pino. I'm the senior general manager of market fair. Uh thank you for having us here.
Um, so I work for the thirdparty management company Centennial. I've been with them for approximately three years. I've been managing market fair for that time period. So we are here um requesting approval so we can take a former Bahama Breeze space, a very
outdated former Bahama Breeze space that is exterior facing only. And we're looking to reface that um redo that for a new incoming tenant, a very popular tenant uh located near the southern Jersey area. Uh I can disclose that that
is Lcala Fire. Uh we've worked very diligently with them and also obtained our liquor license for that tenant. Um so uh and then the the space next to them, if you're standing out in the parking lot looking at the former Bahama Breeze, there is a back of house area.
It just looks like the back of our building. Uh that is the back of a vacant tenant space currently. It was the former South Moon Under. We are bringing in, and I can disclose this as well, Coler Signature Store. They will be facing both inward with their existing storefront but also outward
towards the exterior. So we're going to be creating a storefront entrance for them directly next to the future Lcalifa fire as well. Um what Jeff was alluding to was that is sort of a service area where there are some compactors at the moment. We do have some designs that is
going to show that we're going to add some gate structure. So it's going to be a very nice looking gate, not just a a wooden gate. Um is potentially going to have a logo on it. And it will be monitored and maintained by us, the landlord. Um, my janitorial staff, we do
go around and checking the compactors every single day, multiple times a day. So, if a truck does come to unload the compactor leaves the gate open, we will be constantly checking that to make sure the gate is closed um as soon as possible. Um, but that gate is made uh
mainly to block and cover the existing compactors. So you're not looking at beautiful Lcala, beautiful Colar Signature Store, and you're also at the your peripheral, you see compactor. So we're going to block that off. Um, now if you're still standing in the parking lot, shifting a little more to your
right, the former TGI Friday space, uh, that's a 35 to 36 year old building. Extremely extremely old. It's been TGI Friday since its creation. Uh they have left. Um we are going to be bifurcating
that space into two spaces. I cannot disclose the tenants because we don't have any signed leases yet, but one of them will be a very famous national athleisure brand and then the other one will also be a very famous national uh food and beverage concept. So we are
looking to also include um a patio for that food and beverage concept. So with these addition of the four new tenants, this is going to help market fair, you know, continue to adapt to the economy, continue to elevate its already um
high-end tenant structure, you know, with William Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Westm. I I can disclose that we just renewed them for another decade, all three of them. Um so keeping our keeping our base, our strong base there. Um, additionally with the opening of Eddie
V's last year, really helping up helping out our um, variety of tennis. >> What when help me out, when was Market Fair built and opened? >> Uh, I believe it's in 1982. >> 1982. >> TGI Fridays was added on around 87.
>> Trying to get a perspective of how long you've been there. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> I have nothing further from Mr. Pino. Uh, obviously questions or comments. uh everything he's described and we walk over great detail by civil engineer.
>> Any questions? Owners represent. >> Do you have um additional vacancies at it market fair beyond those areas that you just described? >> Uh we do. Yeah. Aside from what I just mentioned, we do have two more vacancies and they are interior
only. Uh so it's a little difficult for us. I'm sorry. We have three vacancies. Uh two are interior, one is exterior. It's the former Bobby's Burgers Palace that is currently um vacant, but Wonder is going to be taking that. We just executed the lease, so uh the building
department will be seeing some plans submitted pretty soon. And there's no site work for that. That's just an interior renovation. >> Jeffrey, please continue. So, my next witness, I'd like to have both Ben Crowder and uh Rob Oelof uh
qualified. Uh Ben's in charge of the more civil design and then Rob is an expert in landscaping. So, I figured just have both qualified and they can tag team this uh this portion of the presentation. >> That's fine. >> All right. So if you did you call your qualific educational
qualifications uh confirm I don't know if you've been before this board but I know you've been before many many other boards as expert at civil engineering um and you are good standing. >> So again Ben Crowder uh I'm a principal at the firm Bowler I run our northern
New Jersey office up in Rididgewood New Jersey and Bergen County bachelors of science degree in civil engineering from the University of Pittsburgh. uh 17 years of site civil design experience, licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New York. Actually haven't been in front of
West Windsor, but I've been in front of uh many, many boards in New Jersey um and Pennsylvania uh over the years. Licenses are current and in place. >> We accept your qualifications. >> Good evening. Uh Rob Ostoff, uh
landscape architect. Um I've been with uh Bowler. Um, I've been a landscape architect for 12 years. Uh, licensed in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Uh, graduated from Purdue University in uh, 2013 with the Bachelor of Science in
Landscape Architecture. Uh, and I've, uh, testified in front of boards in front of, uh, in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Uh, >> and your NJ license is in good standing. >> Good standing. >> Okay, we accept. >> Thank you. So um in no particular order
in the narrative I guess you hit a couple things what's currently existing there what we're proposing so could be oriented uh hit on a couple things you know in terms of expansion park you know circulation setbacks the varian way that we're
speaking this evening um also you know you know fire and safety uh circulation uh any approvals that we have in assassin that we file for um and discuss I think we tie a lot with that one.
>> Sounds good. Uh Mr. Chairman, I'll mark these as I go. Just exhibits for the record. So, very quickly, I'll mark A1 just to familiarize the board with uh the overall property for the application >> number from the lower right. >> Yep. So, it's uh sheet CO1. It's plan
titled aerial exhibit prepared by my office with a date of May 5th, 2026. Before we zoom in really to this focal area that you had heard um from Anthony about where we're focused in this mall, A1's giving you a bird's eye view, just
as I testify, we'll say everything to the top of A1 would be to the north, but the overall market fair mall site is about 27 12 acres. Uh located within your B2 zone, you can see that delineated thick yellow dashed line on
A1. When we zoom in on these plans, some of these renderings, certainly the elevations from the architect, we're really honing in on the southsoutheastern corner of the mall. And as you had heard, the former vacant Bahama Breeze location and the former
vacant uh TGI Fridays really being fit out for those four tenants uh that we had briefly described. So, as we zoom in, we're really going to be focused in only in about 65 acres of this overall mall. No change in access uh points
relative to Route One, Meadow Road, Canal Point Boulevard, which you're feeding into the mall. No change in general access and circulation throughout the mall as it exists today. We're really honing in again on the southsoutheastern corner of this site. What I'll do now is I'll get into some
of the zoning really quickly. Uh I'll go A2 uh Mr. Chairman, just to mark this. This is an exact copy of our overall site layout plan uh that was submitted with the application uh most recently revised and submitted back uh to the
board. Uh that was March 13th, 2026. >> And then in the lower right corner, the sheet number >> uh that was C301. >> Thank you. >> Same exact orientation here, just a little bit more black and white. I've zoomed in on the property and again we're going to be focused in just on
this southern southeastern corner of the overall mall. Nothing else around the overall mall is changing with our application that's before you this evening. We have one variance with the application. You heard uh Mr. Chang's introduction. Currently existing
nonconformity within the B2 zone you're required 60% impervious coverage as it exists there today 77.95%. We'll be slightly reducing that. I'll walk you through that shortly to 77.94.
So, as it relates to that impervious coverage, as you'll see from Rob very shortly, as we're activating these areas, either through landscaping, establishing that outdoor patio for that food and beverage tenant that you had heard from Anthony, also introducing
some hardscape improvements, the ability to screen some of that current service loading area, that's adding a little bit of imperous coverage into that space. So what we had done early in the planning process through some of the TRC discussions is how can we you know we're
adding impervious in this area to activate that area. How can we look to implement additional green space across the rest of the mall property and where we resolved is along this eastern property eastern area of the mall that really fronts US1 is introducing 13 new
landscaped islands within the parking lot. So you've got wide expansive asphalt areas. We thought it'd be a good idea to actually break up some of those long rows of parking, implement landscaped islands. You'll hear from Rob, they'll have shade trees in there with additional plantings uh just in
this area so that by the time we enhance this area for some of the goals and, you know, high tenency we're trying to attract on this portion of the mall, we're compensating by adding some additional green space back into that imperous area of the of the overall parking lot. So it's bringing it down to
that 77.94 slight improvement from what's there today. Certainly with the introduction of these landscaped islands, they're currently parking spaces. So one of the things we like to look at and as our design waiver with the application is uh
associated with parking per your code. For the mall, five spaces per,000 square ft is the requirement. So that rate basically equates to 1,46 parking spaces. As operating today, there's 1,210 existing. By the time you put in these
13 islands that really occupy two parking spaces each, you lose another 26 parking spaces and you're down with our proposed condition at 1,184. So certainly we have a deviation from what your ordinance requires. What we like to do and what we submitted with
the application is we actually had our traffic engineer, Mr. Fhemis, here. if I I can't answer anything from a traffic perspective, but within that report, we did a parking accumulation study. What they do is they study over a full weekday in June of last year and a full
weekend uh how the parking lot is occupied. And what they found that during the peak hour, so at the highest occupancy of this parking lot associated with the mall and those existing 1,210 parking spaces, only 58% of the mall was
occupied. So the reduction of that uh and in the reverse of that that'd be a 42% vacancy of parking spaces in the peak hour and that was actually at a Saturday at 3 p.m. So thereby that data certainly from uh the applicant owner
perspective making sure there's ample parking on the mall is a is is certainly something we wanted to consider as we then you know implement some additional green space help mitigate some of that imperous coverage as we're really looking to activate and enhance uh those
two you know dark spaces within within the mall that you had heard earlier. So, what I'll just briefly introduce and I'm going to pass it off to Rob a little bit more um because he gets the pretty pictures. Um I'll mark for A3.
This is uh sheet L101 rendering exhibit prepared by our office of March 13, 2026. Same orientation for purposes of testimony. Top of A3 will be to the north. We're now zooming in uh to that
southsoutheastern area of the site. You'll see the 13 new landscaped islands implemented in the parking lot. I know there was a comment within one of the review letters. Those have been implemented uh just to continue to allow the drainage patterns of the of the mall
parking lot to be maintained like they do today. And what Rob will do is probably walk you through a little bit more of this activation space, the outdoor patios um as it relates to really the former TGI Fridays and your
Bahama Breeze. So, um, with that, I'll I'll pass it off if there's any questions. Civil landscape, we can certainly tag you any questions, uh, you might have as we move forward. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Go ahead. I have one question. When the parking study was done, Bahama Breeze
was vacant and TGIF was vacant. >> That's correct. >> Okay. So, if they're I guess they're now going to be occupied, you see any any really uh anything detrimental in terms of losing the space?
>> No. And there were there were some conclusions uh within the traffic report. So when you look at what was occupied with those spaces vacant, it equates to, you know, a lower parking ratio than the 50 that the town requires. By the time you reactivate some of those spaces, you can see that
with a 52% or a 58% uh occupancy, even when those are reactivated for their use, uh you still have ample parking within the mall. Correct. Mhm. >> On the south end you have you got Eddie V's and they do valet parking. I don't
know if that's just for convenience or parking is a little tight on that end. Then you got Seasons 52 now Lascala restaurant. Um all you know more of the high-end with with bars, liquor licenses. So that's um that's nice. But that that brings in a lot of a lot of
people too that want to park down >> that end. >> Yeah. So what what's also interesting, you know, we looked at the within the traffic report, the the full accumulation of of how much of the mall during that peak hour is actually being occupied, but if you look through that
report, they actually uh Dave's Dave's team really looked at each section of the mall and where cars were actually parked. And that was helping drive where we put these landscaped islands, but also taking into consideration once these uses are activated that you're not, you know, while we might say it's
58% occupied, well, if it's 100% in this corner and and zero back here, that does no good. And that's, you know, the conclusions were certainly when these come back in order just based on how it was parked in those study periods, it would be accommodating those uses.
>> Yeah. >> I think now serves lunch. They expanded. So >> yeah. Yeah. No, I I have been to the mall. I mean it's finding a parking is never problem. I went there for Chinese New Year. Probably attracted 5 600
people. Still parking was never a problem. So >> cool. I'll uh I'll let Rob kind of continue on some of the landscape architecture. Thanks, Ben. Um, okay. So, again, we have exhibit A3 here is the uh rendered
uh landscape plan. Uh, what you see here in in light uh green are the existing trees to remain. And then the dark trees, the dark green trees are proposed trees. As Ben said, we are adding a bunch of um I think it's 13, right? Uh
parking islands. Each one of those will get at least one tree. Most of them will get two. Those are all planted with um honeyloust um at 2 and a half inches in size. Um moving towards the Lascala uh side in
the um on the west um we've provided uh landscaping in front of the uh Lascala uh architecture which our architect will talk about uh in a a short minute. We are providing some uh site furnishing as well in addition to the landscaping. So, some places for benches for people to
sit while they're um while they're waiting for their table perhaps. Right. And then moving further east um towards the loading dock, there is a dedicated uh entrance to the new colar space. Uh so they'll have their own entrance that's lit with ballards um that leads
to their their new door. Um, as Anthony testified to, there is a loading dock that that happens sort of in the center of this space that's going to be screened off with a u metal louvered fence uh and gate. So, uh the louvered fence will not allow any visibility
through. Um, so we'll be fully screened off. Uh, and it's a biffold gate, so it can open both ways. And that's been coordinated with Anthony and his team on access and uh um, you know, security for the compactors back there. Uh moving
further east, we have the uh food and beverage which is suite 200. Uh this is where we're providing the um the outdoor patio here for them. That outdoor patio is surrounded by uh one existing little leaf lynen. Um which is pretty nice
tree. We we wanted to keep that. Um and it's also surrounded by uh u vehicular rated ballards, right? so that uh any of the uh occupants that are using that terrace are secure uh and and there's no uh chance of um
>> any clarity on on uh these these patios. So in the narrative there's it says there's 998 square feet of enclosed patio addition yet you've already mentioned exterior patio. Can you point out which is which and where it is on
the site plan? Sure. I Yeah. I mean, I'm probably not the best person to answer that question, but our architect will answer that. Yeah, >> I deserve the question. You You'll take it. Thank you. >> But keep going. >> Yeah. I'm I'm all outside the building, right? So, uh when I say patio, I mean,
yeah, I I understand the the question, but um take care of it. >> He he'll get to it. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, so new patio for the uh for the future um uh dining space there. And then all the way to the uh north and the east is
the uh future athleisure wear. Um but there is a a walkway that leads from the existing sidewalk there. We've created a little niche that also has some additional site furnishing and ballards there for lighting and security. Uh the benches can be used for people that are waiting for Ubers or getting dropped
off. Uh nice little little habit there. And uh we're keeping all the existing trees that lead to the main entrance of the mall uh which is right next to that. Uh I will highlight that at the uh exterior patio next to next to the uh
the future dining we do have to remove some trees. Uh we are removing uh 13 trees. The ordinance requires that we replace 18 trees at 1 and 1/2 in caliber. We're providing 27 trees at 2 and 1/2 in caliber. So we're in excess
>> trees upon the new islands. >> Correct. Yes. Those are included in the new trees, the proposed trees. Yes. So we're in excess of the ordinance. >> They love those trees. >> Uh there near the uh patio space. There's one crepe myrtle tree which is a flowering tree. It's get about 20 ft
tall. Uh some you know the uh and then uh there's also a GKO uh by Lobo which is over by the collar space and one additional uh honeyloust. All of the parking lot trees are honeyloust. >> Aren't they pods and thorns?
>> Not this one. This one is a seed thornless and seedless uh honeyloust. These are >> correct. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. We don't want to we don't want anybody set up for that. Yeah. No. These are specifically uh the species is um skyline, I think, and and they're
they're bred to not have those seed pods or thorns. Uh I think there was a mention in one of our professionals reports about additional seating. >> Did you see that? >> Yes. >> Do you agree with I think it was Ed?
>> Yeah. I I I mean we are providing there is one bench here right next to Lcala uh the entrance here. There's a second bench uh on the way to Coler and then there's additional seating uh over by the future athlete wear. So,
we're happy to discuss it with the board with the planners and and the professionals, but um you know, I think we are providing seating. Maybe perhaps it was just missed on the the review. >> Mr. Chairman, should I respond to that now or wait?
>> Uh go ahead and finish your >> That's pretty much all I had. So, >> go ahead. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Anything else you want? >> No, I think that's that pretty much sums it up. So, >> can you point out where the main entrance to market fair is? >> Sure. Right here where you see this kind
of uh this is the skylight that leads to the main entrance here. So, the main entrance of the mall is this kind of corridor right here. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Ed, did you want to respond? >> Yes, if I could. Just regarding the uh bench locations, and we've looked at this in other modifications to
restaurants where you have an entrance into the restaurant, uh possibly having a bench right near that entrance area for someone who's looking to wait for a pickup or wait for a table if they're sitting outside. It's that sort of thing that we look to do at the entrances.
>> Yes. And and we are providing one bench. It's it's hard to see, but we are providing one bench right immediately adjacent to the entrance. What about the other entrance? The ramped entrance that goes into the patio area that along that frontage. >> You're looking for perhaps benches.
>> Something near there is what I was saying. >> Yeah. I I think the intent of this uh this dining is that it's not a reservation. It's kind of a grab and go place and sit and that kind of thing. It's not like a dinner reservation type place. >> Sort of an open cafe. >> Correct. Exactly. And we're providing uh
you know multiple tables and chairs with umbrellas within those those patio space those new exterior patio spaces. >> And then you have the new uh bench seating area off to the right of that. Correct. >> Correct. The existing entrance >> by the uh existing entrance to the athleisure wear. Yeah. >> Okay. I think that should be sufficient.
I was just trying to get clarity on the the nature of the restaurant. Sure. What's anticipated there? Yep. But thank you. No problem. >> Are there any other questions for either of the engineers? Thank you. >> Thank you. >> My next witness would be um Ian from uh
who's doing architecture. So, do you want your boards up? >> Yeah. >> So, we'll we'll just set up the boards real quick. So, I just need to qualify you. Uh, Ian Ramos uh architect uh if you could just
um educational background from uh you um this isn't to the other hearing we had. Uh we uh can you just give educational background um you know confirm that you tested before as an expert in architecture license New
Jersey back in good standing. >> My name is Ian Ramos as I said I'm an architect. I went to University of Cincinnati got my bachelor of architecture degree in 2005. I became a registered architect in 2011 in the state of Ohio. I got my New Jersey license in 2024. I am currently
registered in 32 states. I have been in front of these boards most recently the borrow of Morris Plains as an expert. Um >> I asked that. >> Yes. Well and welcome. >> Thank you. So if you could just walk us
through the improvements for the article standpoint, you know the square footage, the patio that we were talking about closure of it uh and then just a high level of materials that the venting and emphasize that it's going to be uh consistent with design. Uh it's going to
nicely uh for >> sure I will start with the very first um >> be A4 >> yeah it will be A1 >> so it's A4 exhibit but it's A1 sheet >> exhibit A4
>> and sheet A4 A1 exhibit A4 uh really what this shows is an overall elevation you'll see the various areas that we are proposing to improve. Below that you will see the storefront proposed materials that we're proposing for these various improvements. And the idea here is we are trying to bring consistency
and cohesiveness to the design of the mall with these new improvements. So a lot of the materials you'll see here such as the white aluminum composite panel NT tube and the various each finishes of white off white and some of these brick these materials that you will also see throughout the mall in
other various locations that exist today. So the intent is to bring uniformity in that design that already exists in these new areas. >> Then if you could discuss a little bit about the patio. >> Yes, I have another exhibit here.
>> This is sheet A3 which will be exhibit A5. Actually this one it's on the other side. Apologies for that. >> So we'll mark this one A6 and it is sheet A2.
>> So A2. So it's A6 or A but >> yes. So previous question here about the enclosed patio. The existing tenant that is there right now as we know is vacant is the former Bahama Breeze. They have
an enclosed patio roughly 998 square foot and the intent is that this area substantially similar in size and location as the current existing enclosed patio for the vacant Bahama Breeze. So you can see right here that in floor plan this existing exterior
wall that you see is the back wall right there. What you see right here is the enclosed patio with trifold opening door. So those windows all open up and allow the exterior breeze and all that to come in. So it's really an indoor sort of outdoor space. And as I mentioned, this square footage is substantially similar and the location
of this patio also substantially similar to what exists for the Bahama Breeze restaurant right now. >> And you may recall Bahama B had not as eloquent as you were, but it had a kind of fencing on the bottom plexiglass. Yeah, I believe it was it was enclosed
very similarly to what we're doing now. Obviously a much nicer I I would say uh but it was enclosed with the Breeze when I was operational. >> Yes. So the other thing you will see on here is that we are proposing in addition to these tenant spaces that have been talked about previously by
civil engineers and by Anthony we are doing some slight improvements to existing mall entries and really those are about materiality and again trying to match the existing well entries that have been recently renovated. There is a white ACM panel and you'll see on this
entry in another entry which we have more adjacent to the TGI Friday's restaurant that we are trying to bring down materiality to these entries so that there's consistent materiality between what is already existing and these two new entries well I'm sorry existing entries that we're modifying with new materials
for this area right here we do have a slight increase in uh GLA of 140 square foot and that is simply related to the expansion of the vestibial we are bringing that vestible out making it slightly larger which slightly increases roughly 140 foot the overall GLA of this
>> but it's not trigger any variances double check that I looked at the old approvals so there's no material then wasn't the material change no are triggered with that 140 foot vest >> correct >> and as you'll see I will note this again
for sake that while we do show signage here there's no intent here to get signage approved these are for reference only for the tenants it will locate our sign. >> That's that's the question and I know that you in your your letter J indicated you weren't asking for any signage
approved yet on every sheet I mean it's detailed in terms of square footage of every sign. So my problem is approving this with the signage with the spec specicity
that you have. Somebody could say well the board just approval for all of that. So, can we have a disclaimer on the on the each of the sheets indicating no approval? >> We could certainly add a note to those compliance, but in my application and
you'll see the TRC Novak. We are going to be with signage. We're not asking for anything like that. and and I understand that the thing is that you know they may not be here when you come in for your signage you know
somebody might forget it. So it's just I think putting it on the plan a disclaimer uh basically is what >> yeah I have no problem saying these are not scaled uh we will be is in compliance with those science
regulations >> still be in compliance. Yes, I'm fine with that. >> I was going to say Jerry, the type of issues that Allan's talking about, that could be part of the resolution. Correct. That does not the signage has not been covered. >> Well, when when it gets to the point of
resolution, >> well, it I think it's sufficient to to do it the way um suggested here, which is uh no specific signage is being approved. Um and they have to be conditioned and they'll have to come back in either resolution compliance
which I think would be fine um as a way of doing it. >> Alan, would that does that meet your >> concern? That's fine. I just didn't want anybody to forget it. >> So I want to ask a question about the enclosed patio. Um it uh
is that separate from the indoor space of of which is I think Lcal's fire. Well, I mean, it's it's a patio, so it's part of the indoor space, so there's flow between the two spaces, but yes, it does have a separation on that. There's an existing >> like in terms of of of HVAC concerns, it
would there's not going to be like heat lamps in there or anything like that. >> No, I do not believe that's intent. However, I'd have to probably defer to the >> to the owner. Okay. >> You know, I mean, for this enclosed patio, would there be heat lamps for more seasonal extended seasonal use?
space does have heaters like radiators going along the ceiling. It is a sprinkler space as well. >> Okay. >> So, it is part of the building. There are two doorways going in and out of the space. Keep that two doorways.
>> So, it would be extended use of the space, not just the three summer months of the year. >> It'll be >> okay. Okay. >> That helps me. >> It'll be heated and air condition. Yeah. Okay. >> Of course, I get that. I just wanted to
know use some space >> with the outdoor patio. Um, what protects um, you know, the people eating dinner there that if someone loses control of the car that they don't go up the curb and right into them?
>> I think that was um, >> happened. things can happen very very >> Can you talk about the not necessarily for this witness but for the vehicular ballards that are proposed around the patio area >> I I know it was briefly discussed >> the questions about the the exterior
patio not for Lascala fire for the other restaurant right >> I think Lind is talking about in front of this >> in front of this restaurant what protections are >> no we don't currently have any ballards in front of this space right Well, if it far is up the curve, then
they're going to go right into them. >> I mean, the only thing we're getting is that it's essentially an upgraded it's upgraded what the hot breeze had there. There was no ballers there. I don't know if there were safety concerns at that time, that improvement. Uh, so
we're trying to stay consistent with that uh previous model. >> You know what? Can you maybe focus on Yeah, I'm looking at the architectural plan. I'm seeing a stucco base and some columns there. Sorry question. >> Just in terms of uh Linda's question,
she was asking about veicular safety. Uh the columns and the stuckco base, would that provide any safety from an oncoming vehicle if somebody was to say >> certainly yes. So you will have pilasters, which is a brick material right there. So just the substantiality
of the construction behind it would be enough more than likely to stop a vehicle. Additionally, as you do have curves coming over here, it's going to be hard for a car to maintain that speed if they were to go over that curb and then to go through this. Now, of course, I can't testify nothing would happen. However, I do want to point out that
this location in size is substantially similar to what was there existing with Bahama Breeze. >> Which which restaurant was that one? >> This is the Scalifa, right? I mean, are there any large um like planters or anything that you could
put there as a further >> further thing if they're sitting there? >> Well, would it be problematic to put solids there? >> We don't think we're opposed to putting large planters if it does not violate.
I don't They said they were able to do that. I certainly think we could do that. I just don't viate >> apart from the difficult to justify having behind an
aual and a bump deterrent actually perfection would be another People could sit out there and just pay and then leave. They don't have to go into the restaurant and around >> fully enclosed. Okay.
>> The windows open. Yeah. >> So, so all these you can see the dash lines, they indicate that all those will fold back. So these openings, while they do have glazing, all that glazing opens up and so it really is allow that indoor outdoor activity with the breeze and
everything coming through, but it is a fully enclosed space. >> Yeah, I just had safety concerns. That's all. >> Okay. All right. >> Questions. >> Does anyone have any more questions for the architect? Yeah, I have just one for
the owner the honor's representative. >> Um, we were talking about APA that just in mind that many of your doors into the common areas you press it and nothing work. Do you ever maintain them?
>> We do. Yes. Often times you find that they are not working. They are service that those doors are under contract without a fire. So it is up to them to maintain in their work. >> Yeah. I've noticed all too frequently
that they don't operate their specific >> well into the common areas. >> Yeah. >> Like near seasons by the where TGIF had been
mainten fix and I did go through the one by today. I did have to press it a little harder than I would like to check sensitivity. >> Thank you.
>> Any other questions for the architect? So by last >> and Jeff and Jeffrey before we start with him um you need a variance because with respect to impervious cover question for
David um and for you when when the impervious cover is being reduced why do you need a variance? >> You know I was going to bring that up as well. Uh two weeks ago we had the Bear Creek application where they had been granted a variance for a front yard setback and then they came back for a
revised plan where that setback was increased. So the non-conforming condition was reduced. This is somewhat of a similar situation. I think the applicant might have just applied for it for abundance of precaution but that variance was granted. They are proposing
this work that would reduce that nonconformity for the variance. >> Yeah. for Bear Creek and I'm working on that resolution. We actually said the the the prior variance re remained and I don't think you need a variance here. >> That that's why I wanted to have the
conversation when I actually get here and I actually noticed and applied it in the application. I don't want to be a situation where oh it should have been a variance and then I'm defended. So I agree with you. It should not be a variance. However, I like to play it safe. We're lawyers. So I want to make sure um we're making progression
reducing it. if it needs silent areas, but I just want to make sure that I had any issues. >> We we certainly could put in the um in the resolution that the the prior um that a variance is unnecessary. Did they get a variance years ago? I assume they
did right? >> I believe that they were granted a variance during the last application. >> I can bring up my old review >> just to confirm >> that still obtains. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. empty, but it wasn't empty. I didn't want to have a problem.
>> Yeah. >> That being said, uh, your educational background, uh, confirming 54 before I don't go together. Um, and also your license is in good standing, New Jersey, please. >> Great. Hi, I'm John Taikina. I'm a
principal with all things planning and development in South Brunswick, New Jersey. I've been a licensed planner in the state of New Jersey since I completed my studies at Ruckers University in 1992. I've spent the last 33 years doing this, testifying for planning and zoning boards around the state and across the
country on behalf just like this. My license is current uh renewed last week and in good standing. Uh I was last in West Windsor um in 2008 and then again in 2016, but it's been 10 years, but it's nice to be back. No,
>> Linda, you remember that back in 2008? Yeah, I mean you've been around so long on as a council member. We accept we accept you as a as a as a >> Thank you so much. I did have an opportunity to review your master planning ordinance >> community so long. um the application
>> and had the opportunity to visit the site on uh uh several times in 2026 uh seasons 52 PF Changs Tommy's um but it's nice working with the bowler team because all the facts are in uh are in
order. Uh we don't need a bulk variance anymore so we can uh forego that. Uh we do need a waiver or an exception um for our parking. Um the standard for that is uh set forth in the statute
section 51. Um your planner did a nice job of of laying it out there as well in his uh his outline. Um where we want to make sure that uh this is within your site plan review uh powers as a planning board. It certainly is. uh the request is reasonable and uh it's it would be
somewhat of a a hardship or impractical for the applicant to comply. So in this instance, we're reducing our parking uh from the previously granted variance by an additional 26 spaces to provide for additional uh pvious surface or landscape surface. Um and as set forth
in the parking uh analysis that was provided with the application at our peak we had 58% parking utilization or 42% vacancy. Uh as Mr. Shaktell accurately pointed out we also factored in the uh what was empty. Uh so we made
sure that we still had a buffer there and we still had an you know additional 20% that would have been vacant uh by that um by the measure that's set forth. And we also noted that uh we have very good distribution across the site. So
you have kind of Tommy's on one side, you have PF Changs in the front, then we have this other uh restaurant uh kind of restaurant row here at the southeast corner. Uh but again, we have good good parking uh distributed all the way around that southeast corner. So we are
in good shape there. Um again we do think uh that that request is reasonable and it would not be reasonable or it would be a bit of hard for us to try to provide uh the additional 200 spaces uh given the competing um measures of
impervious surface coverages uh etc. So again we think it's uh an appropriate uh modification to the center that u is not going to have any negative impact on the uh the property or the project as a whole. we are somewhat uh contained to
ourselves. Uh we're not going to overspill if we uh with the parking, we're not going to park be able to park anywhere else. Uh which is kind of nice uh that we are somewhat contained to ourselves. And then obviously no negative impact or night impairment to your master plan, your zone plan. Your
land use plan in 2020 uh continued to be too uh district as it was uh as it was set forth. Um and it was interesting. I used the same I didn't realize because I did my outline before I got um Senovac's
uh report. I used the same quote that it's the intent that land use category to preserve the existing pattern of development in the district and where future development is proposed. It's should be done in a manner that's attractive and and presents a unified
design. And again, I think as evidenced by Mr. Ramos's testimony, we're doing a nice job of kind of pulling together uh as we as TIA continues to make investments in the center. They really are doing a nice job of pulling together the design of these disparate uses as we
uh continue uh the investment in the mall there and as it continues its evolution, I guess, across its uh it its 40 years uh here in the township. Uh so again, I think you can grant the relief requested. I'm available for your questions. There any questions for John?
>> Yes. >> Uh, okay. Are there any questions for any of the applicants? Uh, officials. >> Did you want to make a closing statement before? >> No. No. Uh, no. We're happy to go to the reports. >> Okay. So, we'll go to the professional
reports you guys before you decide who goes first. >> Go for it. From planner to planner. from planner to plan. >> Although I think it's just up now it's working. Good evening everybody. Uh for the record this is David Novak with Burgess Associates. We had a memo dated April 16th, 2026 where we ran through uh
the proposed improvements its relationship to our master plan or zoning regulations identified the design waiver relief reiterated the C variance relief that was requested. However, discussion with uh council I would agree that that variance is not required.
believe the applicant has addressed all the comments in our planning review regarding the site plan, parking and circulation as well as the architectural plan. Um noting that there, you know, the the board will not be approving any signage with this application
about what um otherwise though I think these improvements do match what's going on with the rest of the mall. Um I'm looking forward to seeing an outdoor patio area as well, which would bring additional livelihood to this center as well. Uh, so I have no additional comments or questions. I'm happy to
entertain any questions from the board though. >> Any questions for David? >> Okay, Ed, go ahead please. >> Thank you. Good evening. Ed Snikus with Burgess Associates regarding landscape architecture. Our review is dated uh
April 24th of 2026 wherein we went through the overall landscape architectural design. Uh just as far as the applicant has already testified to they've already addressed the issue of existing vegetation removal. I concur with the amount of trees being removed
as well as the number of replacements being proposed. The only thing I ask is that there be proper protection be made for the existing Lynen tree to be retained on site with the adjacent construction. I'm pretty sure they'll anticipate that as well. >> And this is the tree they plan to keep.
>> That's correct. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Yes. And we u Rob did on testimony say we we will uh protect it and save it. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh proposed entrances and patio areas just talk about the various improvements being made to those areas that they're adding some
decorative features which I think will go along and enhance along with the architectural improvements. The improvements to the streetscape essentially where they call it sort of a restaurant row which I think is going to be very significant. We did point out that there's a new crosswalk being added uh along the parking area which I think
is going to be helpful for ped pedestrian safety. Um in the proposed landscaping I found it very comprehensive and agree with the proposed landscape uh species and design that's being shown. Um, in addition to that, the landscape amenities, the
benches, uh, street, the bench and, uh, ballards that are being added to the streetscape. Um, I believe they reflect other character, uh, improvements or street, uh, excuse me, amenity improvements that they previously improved. Um, so it's going to be
reflective of those standards. uh the loading area fencing that I was happy to see from the TRC meeting that they've added additional features to that fencing, making it much more resilient to the uh garbage pickup and uh disposal activities, but yet adding a very
aesthetic feature to that side of the building. What's often difficult in these types of buildings is where the trash enclosures are, but yet the fencing I think will go a long way to screen that. Uh and then lastly, the proposed lighting, ballard lighting, and some building wall sconces are being
added to the building. Um we found that satisfactory, but just wanted to clarify with any of the parking area improvements, does that affect any of the existing lighting or proposed lighting for the parking area and um you mentioned the Linda tree in addition in your paragraph 4, you talk and you
testified um to this as well about um a bench or two near the newly uh the new entrance to the restaurant. We'll make that a condition. No, I've conceded that it's not necessary because of the nature of the restaurant that's in that area. Okay. So, sorry.
>> I did understand that. Thank you. >> Yes, I could. Sure. Yeah. I mean, as as far as the lighting goes, uh the the limit of the lighting improvements is to the areas that we're improving only. It's intended to enhance the lighting on site and have no impact to the existing lighting that was previously approved
for the parking lot area. So, all of that will remain. all the uh new spaces that we're improving will get new independent light that will meet the the ordinances. >> In fact, some of the planting that's being or the planting islands that are being added to the parking lot, they're encapsulating some light, I believe, as
>> correct. Yep. >> Okay. Thank you. So, here's here's a a crazy thought I had during your your talk. So, it's New Jersey state law to uh for an automobile to stop when a
pedestrian is in a crosswalk. New Jersey state law. >> That's correct. >> Yet yet in this situation, this crosswalk is within a private property. Does that law still abide for a crosswalk in a private property? >> I believe it does. And >> does anyone know that?
>> I think it relates to title 35. Is it >> title 39? >> Oh, 39. Thank you. Sorry. >> So, it it Yeah, Ben Crowder, again, for the record, it most certainly does. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Good point. Thank you, >> Quasi Massud.
>> Yeah. Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ed. Good evening. Quasi Massud, traffic consultant for the board. We issued a letter on April 22nd, 2026. We uh at this time we can say the applicant has addressed all outstanding traffic engineering comments. We
reviewed the traffic uh parking study exhibit and the traffic impact. They're all in compliance. So, we don't have any comments, further comments. So my my my wondering about uh parking in the uh as as Anthony mentioned, this
has been open since 1982. And I'll be honest with you, I've never in the 40 uh four years of the existence of market fair ever heard that there's parking problems at market fair, >> right? >> I don't know if anybody else uh on this board who's been around this community is long that long.
>> Yeah, they have ample parking. Uh, and I was going to say, Anthony, have I mean you in your years in knowledge of the property, have you ever has there ever really been concerns that there's not enough parking at market fair? It's under the amount of parking it should have. >> So, I've been at market fair basically
every day for almost a thousand days. >> No, not not one complaint about not enough parking. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. So, we don't have any any further comments on as far as traffic engineering is concerned, unless the board has any anything for me >> because I know they're asking for a
design waiver in regards to parking spaces. >> That's it. Thank you, >> Francis. >> Yes. Good evening. Francis Guzzk, township engineer prepared a memorandum of April 24, 2026.
Um, so in there they've addressed most of the comments, uh, requesting testimony. Um, no objection to the waiverss as requested. Uh, a couple things in there. Um, I
haven't heard about. There was a a request in comment 2.01 for them to provide a traffic protection plan to show how the parking lot will be reconfigured during normal business hours.
um and remain safe for the uh the retail public. >> Yeah. And for the record, we we can comply with that. >> Okay. So, yeah, I'm I'm comfortable with that being a a condition of approval.
And then, similar to the question about site lighting, um there were three comments related to lighting. The first I believe has been addressed with the statement that there is no proposed changes to any of the parking lot
lighting and with that I don't believe there will be any resulting changes to the average foot candle level. Um I would ask though uh what their reaction to comments 3.02
and 3.03 are in the memo. 3.02 02. There was a prior uh condition of the PB 2404 project that all nonsecurity lighting to
be off by 11 p.m. and nonsecurity lighting uh will remain on until 1:00 a.m. Uh lights will dim a lower level and then motion sensors will be provided as necessary.
And there was also one that um in comment 3.03 about non-security fixtures will be dimmed to an average of 1.29 foot candles from 900 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.
>> Yeah. So, as it as it related to that former application, I just confirmed with Anthony as far as continuing that forward as it relates to those those dimming and the the security features for just the lights remaining on that are necessary for the security around the mall. And that would just be within
this area where we're doing the new lighting. Obviously, as you'd heard from Rob, um there's no changes to the the previously approved parking lot lighting that was recently done. So, just a a clarification on the property in regards to lighting over by
the theaters's end of the property. Um, does it does it still follow this lighting constraint or because I mean on that that's a longer use for uh of the of by users that you know if they come to a 10 p.m. showing at the theaters.
>> Yeah, I think that's why there was a a condition reflecting the use of motion sensors in case somebody's there on the project. site at a later time than the motion >> also. Okay. >> Yeah, it was for the entire center. >> The entire Sorry.
>> Oh, no. I was just trying to understand 3.03. Are we lessening the lighting? >> Just dimming. >> Well, dimming, but for security reasons, um, you know, people come out the malls, it's late at night, you're off of Route One, >> and then every every fixture has a a
motion detection. So, when any person or vehicle is detected in that area, those fixtures will turn on and it's actually a web system. Um, quite interesting. They all talk to each other. So, this fixture will turn on and it'll kind of notify the next fixture that there's
potentially a person coming, so it'll potentially turn on as well, >> right? So, at a certain time, it dims and the motion sensors activated. And then when the motion sensor goes off, it brightens back up. So it doesn't stay dim. It lightens back up and then once no motion it goes back to being
>> dimorens. There is ever since 24 application that was a requirement. So that's currently happening on the site. >> Yes, we completed the project in uh 2025. Every uh brand new light fixture currently at marketare is LED with
motion sensor detection as the dimming. So, so my comments requesting that those conditions from that project be applied to any new lighting exterior of the building >> on this project. >> You're saying it would be for all areas
like where the restaurants are >> that's was in the prior application was the entire center. So that would be carried and applied to new lighting in these areas being reconstructed. Are you Are you okay with that? Linda,
>> just want to make sure it's safe. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think >> Yeah, that's why they have motion sensors. So, somebody's there, the lights kick bright back to being bright again. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Go ahead. TV was obviously comply with that.
>> So the standards lighting standards that we as a planning board approved in 2024 >> still apply for this application. >> Yes. >> And they agreed that is that okay with you Linda? >> Yes the board agreed. >> No I just wanted to if you if you have concerns
>> well it's just it's always security and people coming out of restaurants right and lots of stuff goes on. Oh, >> and this addresses that. >> I think I think >> Yeah, it it is it is very bright at market fair. The reason we actually had to come in for a variance was our
project was too bright. We had to actually dim it. >> Yeah. So, other than that, I don't have any other comments unless the board has any questions. >> Questions from the board for our professions. >> Just real quick, give me the tree count
again. Is it you're adding 27 trees, but you're taking out 13? Now >> it's 25 they're adding. Correct. Yes. Not 27. >> Yeah. Taking out 13. >> We're adding more trees and also larger caliber. Is that correct?
>> Yeah. I'd like to read into the record uh the report from uh Chief Timothy Lynch of our fire and emergency services of West Windsor Township. Um overview, the applicant is proposing alterations to the existing site for tenant
improvements. The conclusion, this proposal has no impact on emergency response for fire department services and we have no comments on the application. Thank you, Alan. Um, at Okay, at this time with the
board, are there any questions for the applicant or any of the applicants professionals? >> Okay, Jeffrey, do you want to make a closing statement or anything else we need to hear? No, I think uh we rely on the testimony experts we provided. Uh we're h Markf is obviously very happy to
be here for 40 plus years. We're trying to expand it next evolution to make it better, get better quality tenants. Uh we're happy uh that we're here this evening and hope you guys will approve the application. >> So at this time, what is the pleasure of the board upon this application?
>> Do you want to open the public hearing? >> Very good. Very good. I thank you. You can see I haven't done this too often. Uh the the floor is open to uh uh public comment on the application. >> Don't rush it.
>> A lot a lot shorter than the other one you >> Yes. Ed and I are used to a lot more people in the audience. >> I know. I know. Uh so uh do I do I actually need a motion to close the public comment? >> Yes. >> Okay. Could I have a motion to close public comment upon the application? >> Second.
>> Moved by Alan, seconded by Simon. All those in favor say I. >> Okay. Uh what is the pleasure of the board now upon the application? >> Let me indicate what's before the board. Um if the if it's a pleasure of board to approve the application, the motion
would be for preliminary and final site plan approval. One design waiver with respect to the parking which is less than required submission waiverss for both preliminary and final. And the few conditions we talked about just a few minutes ago. There's really only three
of them. I could go back them. winds the Lindon tree. The other two deal with the lighting. >> So moved as enumerated by the planning board attorney. >> I'll second that. >> And uh just to make it clear that whereas uh the application did mention a
bulk variance. We discussed that and that is not applicable in the situation. >> Right. And that will be noted in the Yeah. And cherry also the traffic protection plan. >> Oh yes. I'm sorry. Right. and I had that marked. >> Go ahead and say that one again.
>> The traffic protection plan um that Francis set forth in his paragraph. >> It's 2.01. >> Right. A typical traffic protection plan shall be provided for how the work will be done within the existing parking lot
during business hours. No, no signage. >> Right. Right. Okay. >> So, I'll be happy to second as it's enumerated. So, so the uh the motion is on the floor to approve the
the preliminary and final site plan approval for this application PB2602 market tenant improvements with uh conditions as outlined by council uh noting that there is no bulk variance
needed and also that signage will be handled at a later time. Mhm. >> Uh, could we have a roll call on the vote on on this motion, please? >> Mr. Patel, >> yes. >> Mr. Sheel, >> yes. >> Mr. Panov, >> yes.
>> Miss Applegat, >> yes. >> Councilwoman Jvers, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Marte, >> yes. >> Vice Chairman Hoverman, >> yes. >> Thank you. Have a good evening, everyone. >> Thank you. >> So, I' I I'd asked Sam, but he's not
here. When's when's our next meeting? Does anyone know? >> Curtis, I know the answer to that. So, we have a meeting in two weeks, >> guys. >> Okay. We have a uh one application in
two weeks. If you remember where the fog dash is, Princeton Executive Park. >> Oh, >> Yes. All they are doing is proposing a subdivision for financing purposes. However, that requires an approval from the board and there's a couple variances because of just setbacks essentially in
impervious coverage. >> Two weeks the third >> BOGO's coming back. No physical >> Wednesday of of May. >> Yes. No physical improvements. It's just a subdivision for financing purposes. >> So, that's in the month of June. Yes.
>> June 3 maybe. Maybe the the the ascent coming back. >> Okay. that but not they're not coming back at 20. >> Next June 3rd. June 3rd. Okay. >> Noticing birds. >> Uh does the board have any other concerns for tonight? >> Oh, just just update uh the you know the
lighting for the uh what was it? The garages. We talked about that. >> Yes. >> When can we expect that? >> So uh Francis ID brought that up at the last planning board meeting that that that we don't have anything in ordinance about lighting for park garages. >> Correct.
We want the board wanted one just in compliance. I don't think it's a heavy. >> Well, we have a new land use manager starting >> on the 11th, so it'll be on his to-do list. >> Okay, great. That's good. Okay, good.
>> How does that sound? >> I'm sorry. When is the next meeting? >> I believe the next meeting is >> May 20th. >> Two weeks from tonight. And it's just a uh subdivision for financing purposes. No physical improvements. So,
>> oh, and the resolution for Bear Creek. >> Yes. >> Yeah, we're we're >> now