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Part: 1

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Yeah. Wait till she says to put your little arms around her. Then she'll give you a melt. Yeah. That'd be fun. Good evening, everybody. It is 6:00 on Tuesday, July 21st. We are calling the planning board meeting to order. First on the agenda, public participation on any matter not subject to a public hearing. You have anything you want to talk about? Not subject to the public hearing. Oh, no. Next is review and approval, previous minutes. We have two of them, 5/5 and 6/16. They're both on our shared drive. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes on May 5th and June

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16th. I second. All those in favor? Sorry. Aye. Great. Next on the agenda is our public hearings. First on the agenda is TV Realty and Development for a special permit site plan and stormwater permit for zoning ordinance 3-70.44 and 610 and 4-110 to allow a multifamily 44-unit development at 0 Lockouts Road, Parcel 245-1, Zoned Residential C. We did receive a request to continue to

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the August 18th meeting. The note says, "Dear Jay, the clients have opted to redesign the swap-out of the duplexes with larger multifamily buildings." They're in the midst of updating the stormwater as well. Do I hear a motion to continue to August 18th? Can I just ask a quick question, Chair? Sure. So this is our second request for a continuance, correct? No, first. First? They didn't continue at the last meeting? No, they're with you. Okay. Thank you. I'll make a motion to accept a continuance until August

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16th. 18th. 18th, sorry. Thank you. Do I hear a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Okay. Next on the agenda is a continuation without prior discussion. Sovereign Builders, Inc. to amend a special permit site plan and stormwater permit granted 7/16/24 for a contractor shop to also allow for retail and motor vehicle trailer sales at 1026 Southampton Road, Zoned Business B and Water Resource. Good evening. Todd Cellura from Sovereign Builders.

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I had thought that Rob was going to be here to present tonight, but I'm ready to proceed without him. It's- Okay ... yeah, somewhat self-explanatory and- Just before you continue, I just want to let you know that the six of us up here will be voting, okay? Because we do have three that are absent. Okay. Okay? And so that's a quorum, that's correct? That is a quorum. Yes, it is. Okay. It's your choice if you continue. So this is a special permit to amend the site plan that was previously approved at 1026 Southampton Road. And so, it is our desire and intention to

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put up the building there and have the ability to sell retail some of the things listed in the application, which are, let me read it to you. So let's see. So we're requesting permission to be able to retail sell outdoor power equipment, including snowblowers, chainsaws, mowers, tractors, mini excavators, skid steers, trailers, and potentially estate-type golf carts. And it is by special permit allowable under the zoning. And so they go through the very sections of the

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zoning and the response to that. Do I need to go through that, do you think? Or... So, yeah. The specific site is an appropriate location for such a use, structure, or condition, and that's one of the requirements. And the proposed sale's use is appropriate for subject property, which is located within the Business B zoning district, where motor vehicle sales are allowed by special permit. The proposed use is consistent with the commercial character of the surrounding corridor and is compatible with previously approved contractor shop development.

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The site provides adequate area for display, customer access, parking, circulation, and associated site operations without requiring substantial modifications to the previously approved layout. The use as developed will not adversely affect the neighborhood. The proposed amendment represents a limited modification of previously approved commercial development and is not anticipated to adversely affect the surrounding neighborhood. The retail sales component will operate within the approved building footprint and site layout previously approved by the planning board.

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Additionally, property is located within established commercial area where vehicle-oriented and retail-related uses are already present and compatible. The location has got high traffic, obviously, and it's at a street light, so it's got good access from both Madeiros Way and from Southampton Road. Adequate and appropriate facilities will be provided for the proper orientation of proposed use. The site has been designed with adequate parking, loading, internal circulation, drainage infrastructure, utilities, and stormwater

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management facilities to support the proposed use. The site design provides sufficient space for display while maintaining safe vehicle and pedestrian circulation throughout the property. All operational areas will continue to function in accordance with the approved site design, applicable municipal requirements. And then lastly, the plan as approved conforms to all rules and regulations unless specifically waived. The proposed special permit amendment complies with applicable requirements

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of the City of Westfield ordinance, including Business B zoning district regulations and applicable water resource protection overlay district provisions. So let's see. Yeah. So the following comes directly from the City of Westfield zoning ordinance under Section 3.170, special permit standards for reviewing within the water resource protective overlay. The ordinance language is presented below in italic text, followed by the response. Special permit may be granted upon the finding that the proposed use and

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development therefore meets the following standards. The use is in harmony with the intent of this ordinance and district and will not interfere with water resource protection. The response is the proposed amendment to allow retail sales of outdoor power equipment, motor vehicle/motor vehicle, which is how it's written in the ordinance, remains consistent with the intent of the ordinance and underlying district as it represents a continuation of low-impact commercial use previously approved on the site. No changes to impervious coverage or stormwater management

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are proposed. The use does not introduce activities that would adversely interfere with groundwater or subsurface water protection. The use is appropriate to the natural topography, soils, drainage, and vegetation, other water-related characteristics of the site, and is designed to minimize substantial disturbance of these natural site characteristics. The amendment does not involve additional land disturbance or modifications to approved drainage systems. The site was previously approved with consideration of topography, soils,

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and water-related features, and the proposed retail component will operate within the established footprint. As such, the use continues to be appropriately sited and avoids impacts of natural resource areas. And lastly, the use will not during construction or thereafter adversely affect the existing or potential quality or quantity of groundwater available in the district. The requested amendment does not extend the limit of approved work, therefore, there will be no additional impact to groundwater

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recharge or quality. The nature of the retail sales does not involve hazardous materials or processes that would pose a risk to groundwater resources. Approved stormwater measures will be constructed as designed, ensuring protection of groundwater within the district. I said you could make that It's all good. Thank you for coming. Good evening. Good evening. Sorry I'm late. I had it in my head for 6:00, so I apologize. A couple minutes late. So I'm not sure what Mr. Solera took care of for me, but just the overall review? Yeah, just the review of the ordinance and your responses to-

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Yep ... the various components of the ordinance. Great. So pretty straightforward change, kind of a retail use similar to M&B Tractor, that type of- Yes ... small equipment, maybe some golf carts, all the fun toys. Variety of... Yeah. We're not going to be a Monty's or anything like that. We're not selling motorcycles or... But it's more like a smaller version of M&B Tractor in Springfield. We want to be able to sell basically gentleman farmer type equipment. If you have a little home with several acres. Every man that I know that has an acre or two

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wants a little tractor. All the stuff that comes up on Mr. St. Hilaire's Facebook page. Yes. Marketplace. Are you changing the building? The building is the same. The size of the building is the same. Same footprint, just utilizing a portion of the building for this potential for expanding into the remaining portion of the building obviously exists if the business does well, but leaving some of the spaces kind of as contemplated originally, and then the first portion of the building being the retail. So basically four of the units adjusted to the retail use.

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You said the first four units? As contemplated, we had a building footprint- Okay ... and then within that, we had kind of demising walls between the units, assuming that those would be condo'd off or rented separately. So four of those spaces are being utilized to accommodate the retail space. Mm-hmm. Okay. Because it used to be eight. So there's no partitions up right now for the- Yeah ... the other spaces. It's just not- Correct. There would be an open retail space- Okay ... display similar to a minor dealership. And previously, we didn't really know if people would want potentially one or two

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units, depending on the size of their needs. So we- You held off. Okay, thank you. Cheryl, you had a question? Is all this equipment going to be brand-new stuff coming in, or any of it going to be repurposed, reworked? I would assume that used sales would be a component of the retail sales, so like an accessory to the retail sales, just because I'm assuming there's trades and those types of things. So it's new and old, I mean, reworked. I'm sorry. Used. It's both new and used. I would say so. Yeah. You might take a tractor or something in trade. Any maintenance going to be done on it,

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on any of it? There would likely be- Minor ... star on. Is it going to be a maintenance facility, but repairs and maintenance that go along with the sales of a piece of machinery. Will the maintenance be done inside or some of it outside- That would be done inside ... depending on the size? No. I can see where this goes, and it's a reasonable place. There's concern of oil and/or spillage. So it would be done inside the building. We would be required to have floor drains, which would go into a tight tank, a oil-water separator- ...

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which is required by code. But I think it automatically goes to a place where there's a fear of oil being dumped on site. It would only degrade or ruin the land. It would be very carefully policed because we don't want that. We don't want to ruin either the groundwater or the land, so to speak, or devalue the land. So- So as part of the building permit process, they'll submit a set of architectural plans that would include mechanicals and plumbing plans, so to speak. Yeah, I saw that- So if that- ... in there.

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If, depending on exactly the nature of that use group for that portion of the building, if that requires, which it may, floor drains, those would be done. Those would be incorporated into the updated plans for submission on the building permit. Anything that is proposed would be internal. Right now, the way that the back of the building was designed, that we had kind of a loading dock situation where there was a grade change- Is that it? ... from the finished floor to the parking lot grade of about four feet. So should that change,

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and should equipment and/or vehicles be able to enter the building, that would require different plumbing. But either way, it would be required to be accommodated, adjusted, and with that, typically an oil-water separator would be provided so that the plumbing or floor drains go into that, and then the- Right here ... effluent from the bathrooms goes directly to the sewer. And then the floor drains and any sort of plumbing related to a use like that would have an oil-water separator to trap and control

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any sort of floatables or any sort of oil or grit. Any commercial use, even a contractor shop, would be required to have a floor drain, which would go into an oil-water separator, which is separate from the sewer system. It's a separate system. So those would be required by the plumbing inspector for what was previously approved. Any time you have a commercial space, they're going to require a floor drain, but that's plumbed into an oil-water separator, which is a totally separate system than the sewer system. Those two don't mix.

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I'm looking at the list of equipment that you're talking about selling. Snow blowers, chainsaws, mowers, tractors, mini excavators, skid steers, trailers, and residential estate type golf carts and related equipment That seems like a lot of various equipment for a small area. If you weren't doing the tractors, mini excavators, and skid steers, and trailers, I'd say, yeah, you're probably okay. But the minute you start adding those last four items, especially the trailers, you take a lot more space than you've got available here, I would think.

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If you're going to have five trailers out there, a skid steer, and three or four different tractors, you're eating up most of that parking lot. So, Todd, maybe you could explain the primary sales items and then obviously some of them are kind of secondary or tertiary to the operation. Our discussion to date has been that this could need to take the entire building and site. So, in a perfect world, the business is good, it proves to be a positive location for Mr. Celora, the thought process would be that it could grow into the rest of the

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building there in providing additional retail space in the building as well as additional display area. Mm-hmm. Is that fair to say? And the component of trailers is that if someone buys a tractor, they might want to buy a trailer to take it. Well, yeah. I don't dispute the fact that the two go together. What I'm looking at is- The space ... the space you've set aside for it with the six contractor spaces. I don't see how you're going to get all that stuff in that space. And you might not initially. The smaller stuff, you can have it inside, maybe a few

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golf carts, that kind of stuff. Yeah. But the minute you start going to tractors and trailers and skid steers and excavators, you can't just put five of them in a little space. They just don't fit. Well, the building is 12,000 square feet total. Well, yeah, but you're only talking about using a portion of the building. 6,000 square feet. And you're talking about using six spaces for contractors- Actually- ... who are going to have their own equipment ... four remaining spaces for contractor. Right. But the space that you've allotted for showing the equipment, you're not going to get very many tractors, skid steers, and trailers in that space.

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And initially- And you're not going to get them inside either ... Monty's is 10,000 square feet, which is packed full of snowmobiles, ATVs. So 6,000 square feet is a fair amount of feet. I don't want to be as big as MB Tractor. It's a small business. I'm not going to have 30 tractors outside. And if it turns out to be that robust, I need a different location, or I need all of the rest of the contractors' bays. And one of the other things is there is a sister business down the road.

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So as far as storing inventory, there could be limited display on this site and also some inventory stored on the other site. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah, on my other site. Yeah. On my self-storage, which we have lots of area, we could store crated items. So we're not really needing to store all of that. What's his sister business? Oh, it's a storage business on Medeiros Way. He had approved it. I forget the name of it. It's Pioneer Valley Self Storage. So it's basically contractor storage, essentially.

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So large bay contractor storage type business- Right ... just down less than a stone's throw. But if I remember correctly, we also conditioned that there was no outside storage of vehicles. Where? At these. That's pretty much standard for all our- There's significant vacancy still. Obviously, it's filling up, but there's some vacancy now- Okay ... that could be made available inside those units. There's a place in Holyoke, I believe, that kind of does something similar, Ken's Auto Sales on- I know of Ken's Auto. Yeah. He sells snow plows and-

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They sell snow plows. Yeah. They sell some- I buy them plows from Ken ... they sell tractors, they sell lawn mowers and stuff like that. I didn't know he sold tractors. Plus automobiles as well. It seems to be a similar business. It's- My concern is have we ever approved oil changes and repair over the aquifer? He's next door neighbors at Al's Tire Shop. He's Al's Tire Shop. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was an existing use. Okay. So the language in the aquifer district prohibits motorized vehicle repair businesses. So I think that's not the business here. I think the intent is that's a

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smaller accessory part of it. So I don't think it's specifically prohibited, but that's something the board can contemplate. I know on the auto sales you just approved at the last meeting, you didn't allow oil changes. Right. Any other questions? I have a question. It might be a little bit off topic, but explain to me how that oil water separator works, and is it 100% efficient, or does it get 98% of the liquid separated, and how do you dispose of it? 100%. So oil is

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lighter than water. I realize that part. And so, it requires a maintenance schedule, which there are many of them in town. You have to adhere to that. But the system is 100% So you take the oil out, and what do you do with the oil after you take it out of- It's maintained. So the floatables get separated. There's baffles in the tank. That would be serviced on a maintenance schedule. Serviced how? Somebody comes in- Somebody comes in- So Safety Clean or a company like that

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... Clean Harbors or Safety Clean. Right, Safe Harbors, and where you have a manifest, you have a schedule, and you have a record of it, how much was removed and where it was disposed of. And that takes place inside the building, not outside? No, the oil water separator is a tank that's outside the building. It's outside. But- So there's slight possibility that that oil that's taken out of there may spill on the ground if there was an accident. Well, it's done through- Well, they use- ... pretty controlled means. So they would have a system that you open the ports. There's areas around the tank that have...

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Similar to the rimming that you see in the concrete of a gas station. Yep. There's those types of things to prevent anything from getting outside of the concrete area. But there's typically a concrete apron around the ports. Those ports get opened up carefully. There's a pump truck that essentially vacs- Sure ... out that oil into the truck. And they have a whole process that they have to go through. Obviously, they're DOT approved vehicles. They have very specific safety protocols that they have to follow. Again, a company like Clean Harbors or somebody

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does that work. As far as the sizing of the tanks and those types of things, that's all done through the mechanical engineer. So a plumbing engineer would need to size it based on the size of the drains and the equipment being stored. So that's a pretty significant conservative calculation that's done. And then that tank would get sited outside the building, typically about 11 feet outside the building, in an area where it can be easily serviced. So pretty good protocols in place. There are a number of those over the

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north side of town that are constantly being maintained. A couple more follow-up questions. Thank you for that information. The area around the tank where the spillage could occur, how much does that hold, approximately? That's actually sized based on a calculation. There's multiple calculations typically, and I don't have that number in my head, but there is a code for that. So those- Yeah, they use a vac truck, so it's highly unlikely. It's almost like a septic pump truck-

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Yeah ... where they put a tube in. Right. And so you'd have to have a failure of the hose or something, but it would be highly unlikely that a company that is tasked at servicing these things has equipment that is prone to failure. And you have asphalt in the area. Let's say you did have a spill on top, which is the odds are so small. Whenever you hear of oil water, oil especially in the aquifer, there's a fear of people dumping oil, which is a reasonable fear. It's an alarming scenario potentially.

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But you have asphalt around the tank, so if you did have a spill, it's on top of blacktop. Right. And then you would use Speedy Dry or some other oil containment process to absorb the oil before it has a chance to migrate into the ground somewhere. But- And it's a double-lined tank? What's that? It's typically a double-walled tank. Yeah, double wall. That's what- Yeah. And there's membranes and there's alarms. I don't know that alarm system for a gas tank, if that is required. But for this, it's typically just a double-wall tank, I believe.

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Okay. But I guess I'm not trying to do anything here. I'm just trying, in my mind, highly unlikely does not mean impossible. That's just my- Extremely unlikely. You're not pouring oil down the drain. The drain is a plumbing requirement, so I think whenever you have a floor drain, which is a plumbing requirement- Right ... there's a vision that we're going to pour oil, or someone's going to pour oil down the drain. Oil is contained and removed. It's put into a container and then removed by a similar company.

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The oil water separator is really just a secondary fail-safe in case something spilled on the concrete floor and within the building- Right ... and some dribbles into the floor drain, and then it ends up in a place where it's separated and removed. Yeah, I understand that. I just wanted a better understanding of the process of removing the oil and where it was done and how it was done. So thank you for answering those questions. Sure. And they are required for not only where you have some sort of repair component, but any sort of overhead door

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now requires an oil water separator. So almost anywhere on the north side that you have a new overhead door- Right ... they're required to have a floor drain, plumbing vented to the... It gets vented up to the ceiling and there's some plumbing there. And the people that are doing the removal of the oil are trained. They're not just hired and- Safe Harbor ... tomorrow you're going to go do this. They're trained. It's a company like Safety Clean, and that's what they do, is they carry hazardous materials. Right. So it's very carefully regulated, where there's a manifest of how much was

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picked up- Right ... and where they disposed of it. And the owner, myself, would have a record of this- Right ... that would be good insurance that the property maintains value over time, because we don't want to spill oil on the land. Of course not. And the people that are trained have a certificate that they've been trained to do this. Correct. Thank you And on spillage, and they've been trained on if there's an accident and all that, yeah. Thank you. Rob, we got a letter from Joe Kitner. Mm-hmm. You seen it? So I think his concern was addressed in the original site plans. It does show signage- It does ... on those earlier plans. So he was just looking at the

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current change. So I think that's been addressed. Yeah. There's nothing overly innocuous here. As Jay just said, there is signage. The valve, marking the valves, that's an easy thing. But he does say, second to last line, "It does not appear there will be any repairs done on site." And we're being told that, yeah, there will be some minor stuff done on site. I'm just wondering if it would change his answers at all if he knew that there would be some repairs being done on site. Yeah, so the application doesn't mention any service or repairs

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or oil changes. So, that's probably all he was looking at. Yeah, I don't know that it would necessarily change the stormwater design, but... And maybe, I don't know if you can clarify what portion of the business would be service. It's not just repairing used equipment for sale, but it's actually people would come in with their- We have assembly, right? We have assembly. Assembly of equipment. It comes in a crate, and so you have to put it together, most often. Right. So it's not heavy repairs. It's fair to say it's accessory or incidental to the sales.

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Correct. So- It's not our intention to be a service center for tractors and so on. Well, in that- But warranty with- ... particular business, you're going to have no choice because you're going to have warranty work coming up. You're going to have welds that'll break. You'll have- Absolutely. There will be some warranty work and some repair work. But- And then somebody's going to want to have something serviced where they purchased it, I'm assuming. Yeah. I would. But we're not going to solicit outside service. We would service the clients that purchase from us, warranty, or we really have no desire to be in

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the repair shop business. But it is part of that business, for sure, in terms of warranty and maintenance of vehicles that you sold. Right. So there's going to be repair. It's open to interpretation. Am I understanding that right? Yeah. I mean, if I bought it from this gentleman, I would expect if it broke, I would bring it right back to you. Yes. So. So- That's agreed ... the other part, so the conditions that we set forth in 2024 would stay the same. Correct? Those don't change. Correct? Yeah, those didn't contemplate this use being there.

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So if you- Except for the fact that adding this portion on would- Let me just- Like Greg was saying, you would have probably a minor repair for the fact that, like you just said, if you're buying it and it has to be repaired, especially if you're bringing in refurbished equipment, if something needs to be worked. That's understanding is that there could be some maintenance going on. Correct? Correct. Okay, so then that would be tweaked on from the special permits from the 2024 then. Yeah. So your condition back then prohibited

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maintenance of vehicles and motorized equipment, prohibited- Yeah ... specifically. So yeah, if you're amenable to this, you would need to change that condition, too. That's why I'm asking that. Yeah. So now it's opening up something a little bit different, so that would have to be revised then. Correct? Yeah, and then the next one says no engine oils or fuels. So we can... Okay. So thank you. So four and five. Yep. Yeah, good catch, because I wasn't... Again, this wasn't presented in the application, so I forgot about that. But that would have to only be specific to this particular

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portion that's being added on, and nothing to do with the actual contractor units. So this would- Or the others, yeah ... be a separate entity on its own. And we could certainly accept a condition that prohibited any of that work being done exterior to the building. I think that would be appropriate because- Well, that's part of my question I was going to ask Rob, because when I was asking him, if it... Well, let me ask this question first before I go to the next one. Is any of the equipment that he's looking at putting there, because I can see where you can put snow blowers inside, say that somebody's coming in to look at, to purchase things,

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chainsaws, mowers. But I'm concerned about where you're going to store and how you're going to house it, and how you're going to have the room for mini excavators, steers, trailers, anything that's large, because they will take up space. You don't have much room on the outside to put these things because there isn't much room- Right ... when you're looking at this plan. So I'm just trying to figure this out that when I drive down the road and start seeing things on the outside in this very limited room, are you saying that everything will stay inside? No. And the work, the maintenance will stay inside?

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I'm saying I believe the, yes, the maintenance would stay inside. But I would think that for a retail operation such as this, you could expect to see tractors, golf carts mini excavators, maybe mowers here and there, exterior to the building in a display area. Can you show me where this would be at in here? I was just pointing at where the dumpsters are. Right by the dumpsters. So most logical location for the display- Would it be in this area here? This unpatched area. This patched area. And is that area going to be fenced?

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If you're going to leave them out there overnight- It's not proposed- ... you better fence the area ... Yeah, it's not proposed to be fenced. There'll be cameras on the building and would be certainly policed by the owner. But you don't have any intentions to fence the front area off in any way. So we were showing the northern portion of the site, as display, the corner capturing people coming north and south. I think to be fair, that could grow if the business continues to grow. I think the realistic possibility is that this business does well because of the nature of the north side of Westfield. I think it's more of an industrial contractor

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area. I think it's a logical use for there. So I could see that, they could arguably, over time, maybe transition their need for parking out front into more of a display. Right now, that's not what we're anticipating, just because it's going to be getting the business going. But I think it's fair to say it could grow, and I don't think we would want to not be able to display equipment out front. But our current proposal is to use 6,000 square foot of the building in this

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northern portion. And if Todd decides that having tenants using contractor spaces makes more sense going forward and just keeping the business a certain size, I'm sure he could do that. And we would be happy to come back if the expansion is necessary, either to the south in the building or exterior to the building because of the nature of the business. That would be logical. But I think we want to be transparent and say we hope the business grows, and if it does, we do agree he would likely need more space. Oh, I agree with you there. How big is that spot?

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I understand why you want to put out front, South Hampton being a main road, but how big is that area? So you're putting larger equipment out there, just kind of figuring in my brain how many actually could sit out here based on what that lot area is. It's 50 by 50. 50 by 50? That's not that big. No, it's not. It's a little smaller than that. It's not far from that. Yeah, so you could probably have 10 to 15 pieces of equipment, depending on the size. Certainly, if you're talking trailers, you're not talking putting

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many trailers out there. That's not going to happen. To Rich's point, this would be capture the eye, maybe one of each. This is going to be a handful of items to catch the eye. Maybe not 10- No ... of each item. Initially, that would not be the case. You actually answered my question wrong, because the fact of when you're looking at this and seeing, I grew up on these mini tractors and stuff- Yeah ... so I know how much room they take. Yeah. So I was just trying to figure out what your plan would be, like you're saying, on growth. And that's what I was concerned about is are you later

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on looking at stealing some of these parking spaces in order to accommodate? I would think that would be the most logical. Right now, am I correct in understanding that the north portion of the building would probably be built first? Would you build the whole building? I think we'll probably put the whole thing up. Okay. So if we put the whole building up, we would have this area available in the front, depending on how tenants take place. Somebody could come along and say, "Hey, I'm going to pay a lot of money for a lease. I want to be here. This is a great location for me." And then

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you'll have a decision to make, right? A business decision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we would love to initially have some good tenants. But yes, the hope is that we take up the entire space over time. Let me give you an example just for perspective, because it's a couple things that you guys have looked at within the last decade anyway. So the Indian motorcycle facility, that's probably a good example of a similar size. I don't remember the exact size. Do you know the one that runs kind of next to the rug place? Yeah. It was owned by Dennis Bulldog. So granted, those are bikes, but a lot of those were inside.

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He would bring them out sometimes. Certainly, you're not going to bring in a mini excavator in and out. Probably not going to bring a tractor in and out. Not to say you couldn't, but in a perfect world, there's a few of those outside initially. And then mowers, chainsaws, those types of things would be obviously inside on display most likely. Yeah, that's why I see that. Yep. And then the inventory initially can be stored in the other location should it need to be as the season comes upon you. And these would be put on a pad, the big equipment? The equipment will be out front on the asphalt. Yep.

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That's one of the things that I would definitely... We think we need to do is make sure that all equipment is parked on paved- Yeah ... ground. Like you've got a big sectional, it's a long and seeded area north of the building. Right. I wouldn't want to see 15 excavators parked across the front of that on the grass. You have a big rock with the excavator on an angle. Yeah, a big rock. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. I do know what you're saying. Yeah. My last question I have is the snow. It is tight So the snow- Yep ... can be pushed to the ends of the parking lot. Again, similar to a lot of the projects that we have,

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there's not a lot of extra area. They don't want you pushing snow into the basin. So most events will plow the snow off to the sides. There'll be piles here and there. Any major events, maybe we'll borrow one of those tractors on display and- Check it out ... stockpile it and truck it out need be. That's probably the reality. It's a small area, it's worth trying to fit everything. And until the tenants take shape or, Todd will know, I'm guessing, in the few years to come here, how this business is going to take shape and also tenant makeup as well, which will help him adjust along the way.

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So, whether that parking ends up being needed, there's only so many parking spaces needed for a retail use like this. Similar to Amante's Motorsports or some of these other places, they do pretty well with limited parking. People are coming specifically to buy these types of, whether it be a dirt bike. They're limited display as well. They're- Yeah ... 50 meters outside. Right. They really, yeah, and that particular business is- This place- They do great job ... Hall Power was the same idea. Yeah. They had really nothing outside. They had a couple. Yeah. But everything was inside, and they did parts and service. And to Rich's point, the mini excavators need a spot outside.

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But we're not talking about carrying- But- ... you know ... 6,000 square feet, you can put a lot- A lot of stuff ... of experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Thank you. Well, yeah, but the 6,000, you're not going to get a lot of the mini X's inside that building with everything else you got in here, because you're going to have offices and sales floor. They're smaller than they look. I just bought one. They're great. Hmm. But you would have offices and you would have- As long as they're either stored inside or on pavement, I don't have a lot of problem with them. It's reasonable. I just think that you're going to be very packed. If you get any kind of quantity of inventory there, you're going to be walking on

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yourself. That's an opinion. I know I have trouble finding a place to park my tractor, my four-wheel, and everything else, because there ain't never enough space. Sounds like a potential customer. No. No. You already have all the toys. As long as the motorcycles got a hole, I'm good. So, let's hypothetically say we got a mini excavator, and you blow the top end of the motor. What do you do? Outsource? It has what now? Supply the motor. You blow the motor. On a warranty, it blows a motor. Do you outsource it? What do you do? You would have to install a new motor. If the factory said that the motor was warrantied. Right. I'm just getting to the level of maintenance you might-

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Right ... potentially have to do. Sure. I think it would be our responsibility. It's not the answer. If you want the answer that makes you feel better- No, I want your answer ... the true answer is we would service it there, but it's not our desire to be a heavy machinery mechanic or any of that. It's incidental to we want to sell. Right. But of course, part of that is you have to stand behind your product. And so that whatever that may mean. But the goal in that is to be very careful and be very... I know where we are. I know where the property

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is, and I know that it's a sensitive topic, and I want to make sure that we comply with the sensitivity of the topic by being very careful. If you have to change a motor, I don't know that that means that we're going to be losing oil everywhere. We wouldn't do it. We would drain the oil, and then it goes from there into a proper legal containers. I understand the whole process of it. I was just kind of bringing up, that stuff happens. Mm-hmm. And if you're like, "Well, maybe we'll do a couple oil changes here and there, maybe a little warranty work," but warranty work could be an overhaul.

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Could turn into a different animal. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why I'm asking. Well, not if we have the right brands. Okay. Yeah, but if you're not planning on having a heavy equipment mechanic on line, because most of those are diesel, so you're going to need a diesel mechanic on line to do anything with the motors, really. Which- You can't just... Unless you're going to have an amateur working on it, and I tell you, I wouldn't want an amateur working on my equipment. I'd want a certified diesel mechanic on a diesel motor. So, I think the statement about having to outsource some of that major repair is maybe a good idea to look at.

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Mm-hmm. Because you'll blow a line. I blew a head gasket. I had to have the head gasket replaced on my diesel. And unless somebody knows what they're doing, you don't want the- Sure ... shade tree mechanic doing that. Agreed. So. I drive by MB Tractor all the time, and I also drive by Ken's Auto Sales all the time. They're two really different operations. Mm-hmm. MB Tractor is, that's what they do. They sell tractors. They're out there overnight. They're all over the place. Ken's has a pretty robust business, but you really don't see a lot

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of supply. So they either have it inside, or they have one or two models that they display, and then special order it. But, it's roughly about, would be about your size. He's a very small shop, and his showroom is super clean. Yeah. He's immaculate. He installed my plow. It's like a two-bay. It's a tiny little shop. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he does a- Yeah ... a large- He's got a fenced-in area. He's got some supply in the back there, and- Right ... yeah. Small parking area.

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Yeah. Not that large. It's- Yeah. And sometimes on a sunny summer day, you might see five or six of the tractors out in front. I haven't seen the tractors. I'm going to have to go take a look. But to kind of piggyback on Ray here for a half a second You clearly have an understanding of what's needed up on the North End, okay, the sensitivity of the North End. But what if you sell? We've got to figure out some way of making sure whoever you sell to understands those sensitivities as well.

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Mm-hmm. So they don't bring in a diesel mechanic and start bringing in stuff that we don't want up there being fixed. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of a thought of mine. We can condition it so that the service is related to warranty and repair of vehicles sold by the establishment. That's reasonable for me. Mm-hmm. Because truthfully, we have no intention of people bringing us other brands of tractors and asking us to fix it

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or do anything. The goal is to sell and stand behind the product that we've sold. Is that reasonable, Rob? Seems reasonable to me. I personally wouldn't bother, honestly. And it's no test of your integrity, but it's not enforceable. Okay. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And like I said, it's no test to you, but you can say that to anybody, and, "I can fix Joe Schmoe's whatever, whenever I want." But if it's in the- You could write it ... if it's in the special permit, right? It'll be in the special permit when it's sold.

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Fair enough. And whether it's enforceable or not, at least it's there. Well, it is enforceable. It is enforceable, right. May be not easy to enforce, but yeah. You have to prove it. So if he's in business 10 years, and he sells a machine from 10 years ago, okay. We could do a sting operation. Yeah. Bring in your lawnmower. We'll be in the woods. Just from a business standpoint, it seems to me that the retail space on Southampton Road has more value than a repair garage or a diesel repair garage. So that may be

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something as the business gets going that logically gets subbed out to a different location to maintain the retail space, right? Minor hooking things up and connecting them and putting them together, assembly, versus wholesale, like Rich said, wholesale engine repair or changes- Right ... that may be a different animal, right? A good example is the tractor place in Belchertown, and I can't remember the name of it. Mm-hmm. But they don't have a mechanic, so they sell tractors.

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They have no full-time mechanic. They assemble, sell, and if there's warranty, that's what they do. That's it. It's like Goldock. He had sales, and down the end of the street, he had maintenance and stickers and things of that nature. Orchard Hill Tractors, the name of it. Yeah. And they have no mechanic. And they never have. I know the owner, actually. They just assemble, sell, and deal with warranty when it arises. Any other questions? So again, repair business itself would be prohibited. So, this would need to be related. But maybe poor Rob can answer. So the site plan, the back is about

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three or four feet lower than the front. So you're talking about having garage bays in the back for certain- I think once Todd has more detail on the architecturals, we'll know how we want to get into the back of the building. So there was some discussion about adding a ramp for that, in which case... So right now, as it stands, if we have a loading dock, technically, we wouldn't need a floor drain. But if he's doing repairs, then he obviously would need a floor drain. So we're anticipating that we'll be bringing vehicles in, so we would need a floor drain, and we will likely look at how to bring those vehicles in.

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There will likely be a ramp up, which we would be happy to provide that detail as the building design takes shape, just because you don't know exactly what your bay looks like or those types of things. Yeah. Or a sunken bay. Sunken, yeah. Yeah. Actually might work better with the height. What's that? A sunken bay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I had a quick question, just looking at the property. Is the five to 10-year plan to try and make a very successful business that you're proposing, or is this something you want to build for this and then move it if it's successful for another reason?

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Wow. Because it looks like a really attractive property. Sorry. I wish I could look that far ahead. The goal is always to go big or go home. Right. But, so part of what's happening here is I'm going to offer an opportunity of partial ownership to some of the guys that have worked for me for many years and their kids. And they're quite a bit younger than I am, and I hope they really go. Two of these long-term employees of mine have kids that are 17, and they would get an ownership stake as an opportunity to- Right ... they go to boat school, and they want to have a chance at

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doing something. And so the goal is to go big, put some young blood in there, and do well. Yeah. I can't quantify what do well means, especially in this world that we live in, which is AI going to take away everybody's job, and then nobody's going to buy tractors? I don't know. It's a very uncertain time, but the goal is to do well and put people in place with Young folks that are ambitious, give them incentive and watch them go. Yeah. Would that mean moving if we outgrow this? Yes, that would mean moving.

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Yeah, because the comment came from looking at all the businesses that have been proposed here that have a significantly larger outdoor footprint than that. So I'm all for a business, I just would like to see it be planned for whatever its intended use is. The only concern I have is how much outdoor space there is in this proposal for what you're proposing as a successful business. But, so that's all I have to say for now on that. So your plan is to be a part of running this business, is not just opening up space for somebody else to come in

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and put a business in. You're planning on running it yourself to start with. Yes, and I have two longtime employees that have- Okay, yeah ... young kids. You are going to, everything you're telling us is you're going to come in there, and you're going to help set this business up and get it running, and you're going to work at it, and it's going to be your business- Absolutely ... along with partners, and that's up to you. But you are going to be a prime- I'm absolutely ... prime mover in running this business. Correct. Okay. Yeah. I'm the- Do we- ... primary owner. The ownership stakes of the others would be much smaller than mine. And I actually, I have the most to lose.

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I need to be there. Do we need to see the ramp design, or do we want to see the ramp design? Do we need to see what? The ramp design. The ramp design. To the back. Or how they're going to- Oh, with the loading areas? Yeah. Yeah, because it's a four-foot difference. We should definitely provide that to you. Yeah. All right. Okay. In a perfect world, if we could do that administratively through a condition. Mm-hmm. Because it won't change... It'll be very minor change to the exterior. And like Jay had mentioned, it might not be a ramp, it might just be an accurate entrance with the floor drains. We should show you when we get the mechanicals pulled together,

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I think, just so you guys understand how the oil/water separator is going in, those types of things. It's peace of mind, if nothing else. Okay. We had-- Go ahead. Do we agree on a minor change on that? What's that? Huh? I'm sorry. I didn't hear you, Cheryl. So, he's just going to present the- Yeah. Yep. That's fine with me. So we have a draft decision, special permit, site plan approval, stormwater management permit. It's an amendment. Subject property, 1026 South Hampton Road. Draft findings and special condition. Having considered the additional retail and vehicle sales use proposed,

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the findings described in said original special permit are hereby reaffirmed, and its conditions shall remain in full force and effect, except, one, condition one shall include reference to sheet C4 as revised 5/20/26. Two, to condition two, the following items shall be added, retail sales of outdoor equipment, trailers, and off-road type vehicles, no cars or trucks, including outdoor display as depicted on the site plan.

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So I was editing that as this was going on, so I added some updates if you want to refresh it, or I can just go over it. But that would be the change, conditions four and five that currently prohibit maintenance and oil on premises to accommodate this. Oh, here we go. Okay. Change conditions four and five to allow maintenance repair activities for this tenant only. Also allow only servicing of vehicles, equipment sold or to be sold from the premises, and indoor work only. Indoor work in, you

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must submit the floor plans. So... I... So have we come up with the idea of what we find acceptable to allow for maintenance, since that was a debate? I think Ray's got a good handle on it. What was my handle? Your handle was basically, they're going to be doing it, and if it's major, it should be outsourced. But the reality is, there will be some light maintenance on there, and it should be done indoors. Okay. Did I read it wrong? No. It was a question more for the gentleman to bring up the point that stuff happens, and big stuff can happen. And to no fault of the owner,

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it's more of a factory defect. You get a bad set of rings in the pistons, and next thing you know, you're eating the problem, or the warranty work. Yeah. So that's why my question was, if you did run into an issue where you've got to pull the whole top end of a motor off, would you outsource it? That way, you didn't have all the headaches to go along with that. That was why I asked. The odds are good because we don't want to be diesel mechanics. Yeah. We don't have the desire or the training. Right. Assembly, yes, for sure. Some basic maintenance and

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warranty, for sure. And a lot of the times, these companies, if they do have a factory flaw, they send their reps, they send their mechanics. Right. It was more of a question than- Right ... a request. I think the concern would more be about fluids than- Whether it's a big job or a small job- Well, the big- Depending on what it is ... the fluids come along with the- Yeah ... apart the body of the heart and leaves. Yeah, but 20 oil changes comparing to one overhaul. That was my question. Yeah. All right. So we don't- What about putting in something about parking the inventory equipment on pavement only?

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Yeah, I did add that also. Good. That they would come back- To number two there ... to do an additional expansion, is that what you're saying? Well, right now it says it's limited to what they show and on pavement only, which is where they show it. I think I don't have an issue with it if there's floor drains because- Mm-hmm ... unlike some of the other ones that we said we didn't want it, they didn't have the particulars to pick up the mess if there was one made. I agree with that. As with something that large, you'd have to have hoists and stuff in order to be able to pick things up if you have to replace an engine. Karen. Any other discussion?

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All right, so let me read it one more time. "Having considered the additional retail and vehicle sales use as special permit in the underlying district proposed, the findings described in said original special permit are hereby reaffirmed, and its conditions shall remain in force and effect, except one, condition one shall include reference to sheet C4 as revised 5/2026. Two, to condition two, the following item shall be added,

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Q, retail sales of outdoor equipment, trailers, and off-road type vehicles, no cars or trucks, including outdoor displays as depicted on the site plan on pavement only. There will be a change to allow maintenance repair activities for this tenant only, and there will be a change to allow servicing of vehicles, equipment to be sold on premise, and indoor work only." And they'll be submitting the floor plans. Is that acceptable? Yes. Great. Okay. Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? At this point, we can

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add a condition if we think- Sure ... we need to? Yeah. This is the time to do it. That way they're- Before we close the- Yeah ... per the engineering department, they proposed that the inlet valves of the infiltration system be clearly marked, so if they need to be accessed, everybody knows where they are, can get to them quickly and easily. That's fine. Yeah. Again, that is already shown on the- Is it shown on the- ... earlier set of plans. So yeah, that wouldn't change. It's already- It didn't seem like they realized that that was done. Well, they weren't looking at the old plans. They were just looking at this change.

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Okay. So it is on there. Okay. It's already on there. I missed that. Thank you. Okay. Anybody else? We don't have to add in there if they wanted... So they have to come back if the area is looking at being expanded to house more bigger equipment in the condition? Well, the condition is that it's limited to what they show. So- But- ... if it's a change, they should come back and say- If they change, they've got to come back ... "I need to expand this or change." If they expand, they've got to come back. So you're saying that the applicant will automatically come back? Well, I don't know if they automatically will, but they'd be out of compliance if they wouldn't. That's a good question. So let's say things go well. Mm-hmm. And the display area outside needs to grow.

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I would think the display area outside might need to grow quicker than potentially expanding the building portion. So if that's the case, would you like that to be done administratively through your planner, or would you like to see that? I think at the time, that can be a decision the board makes. Okay. If they come and show you, can decide if it's a minor change. Yes. If they grow in a couple of parking spaces- Yeah ... or if they're going to change the whole front, you might want to do the hearing, have a hearing over there. It's a tight space, so that's why I'm trying to look at, see what you might- Yeah ... what your ideas are. Well, we can stick with what we have for now, but we understand that any changes

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would require us to come back and see what you guys think. Right. That's what I'm asking. Great. Is that fair? That's great. Okay. Thank you. Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? I'll make a motion to close the public hearing. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Okay. Do I hear a motion on the amendment? I'll make a motion to approve the amendment as presented. I'll second. Okay. With the conditions. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, with the conditions as stated. I'll second that, too. Okay. We'll start with Ray. Yes. Jane. Yes. Cheryl. Yes. Dylan. Yep. Yes. Rich. Yes. And I am a yes. Thank you very much. Thank you, guys. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Have a good night. Good luck. We'll keep you posted.

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Okay. Thanks. That concludes our public hearings. Next on the agenda is review of plans not requiring approval under subdivision control laws. It appears we have three of them. First is 0 Pocastic Road, Parcel 48R, 28-1, Delbarton LLC. So, you just saw the 61A release on this not that long ago, but this just splits that into these two lots shown. And

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what are they, just breaking it into two lots? Yeah, A and B. Okay. Do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion to approve the A and R. Second. Pretty straightforward. All those in favor? Aye. Next on the agenda is 1295 Southampton Road, Plum Road Development LLC. So, this one out of that bigger parcel, this one carves out that lot. Lot B as its own new lot. Lot B is its own new lot.

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So there's a conservation restriction on the rear L-shaped part of this. It doesn't really affect the A and R, but that's what that additional line is. Okay. So Lot B won't have any conservation encumbrances on it. It's all outside of that boundary. I'm looking at this, and I see there's a leach field. Looks like it's crossing over that line, which means- Yeah, they're showing an easement. So in favor of- Oh, that's what that... Okay ... Lot A. They're making that arrangement. Okay. That's legitimate? Yeah. It's not an A and R issue, but

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they should certainly get an easement. If they ever sell that off, they would need to have access to that. Any other questions? No. Do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion to accept this A and R. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Last on the list is 5 Clark Street A and R. Coming before us. Again, you should be pretty familiar with this special permit that created that second lot, Lot B, I think. So this is just the A and R plan that will be recorded to actually create the lot that you approved already. And you let us know that was coming last week, I believe.

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Do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion to approve the A and R. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Okay. That concludes our A and Rs. Next, last is other business. Review of ADU and principal dwelling common ownership regulations. John Bowen wanted to bring this before us. So. So John's not here. I don't know if you want to talk about it or not. But basically, ADUs, accessory dwelling units, we have a restriction, as many communities do, that they can't be sold off separately to a different owner. They have to be accessory to the main house, and if they're

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under a separate ownership, they're not really operating as accessory. So, I think John thought that should be revisited to allow condoization of these. Did he give a reason why he thought that should be done? He said something of it makes ADU market more marketable, maybe. Yeah, I don't agree that they should be able to buy them off as condos. Again, when we did the master plan, one of the big things was that this was a

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single-family dwelling city. Now, we'd had multi-families, but when they did this, they created, to my mind, a nightmare. And I think we should maintain the ownership, and we shouldn't be able to condoize them. Yeah. I know it's something the board talked about when we were drafting this, and that was something we wanted to see. Physically, it doesn't change anything that occurs, but I think it feels like it kind of subverts the subdivision control law and density intent, if not actual density. But...

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I think the original owner of the house loses control over that. That he has no control over who would buy that condo unit from the person who owns it. And I think it could degrade the value of a piece of property, in my mind, if the person living in the main house doesn't have control over who is in that unit. It could also go the other way around, Jane. Okay. I see both sides of this coin, because if you look in

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the Boston area, you get two-family houses that become condos. The first floor is a condo, the second floor is a condo, and that's how they've set it up. I could turn around and condo my property, allowing my kids to buy it. Now they get property ownership. Right. Okay? And that's a good thing from my kids' perspective. It allows them to build and grow wealth. But I could turn around, they own the ADU, I could turn around

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and sell to somebody that they absolutely do not want. Right. Okay? I kind of see both sides of it. And I know you had your hand up, so if you want to speak to this, because you're- I don't know if it's- Sure. I'd be interested in your opinion. It's- So I might bore you a little bit because I've been thinking about this for about a year extensively. To the extent where I'm actually going to condo off. I'm building a house in Nathaniel Hill. I have an 81-year-old mother-in-law who would love a beautiful little ADU. I do have pictures of them. I know Jay might even have them on the drive.

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But I can give you an example of this as it relates to, I would say, a high-end neighborhood in the city of Westfield. I can also give you an example that John Raymakers, you know Johnny Raymakers from town, is doing on Otis Street in Westfield. And I would just start by saying the concept that we're dealing with, and I hear Rich's point, but the concept we're dealing with is use. So planning board is used to regulating use, single-family, two-family, retail, whatever it might be, right? Condominium ownership is regulated under Chapter 183A, separate from the zoning stuff. Now, if there's a zoning prohibition, that's a

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different story, right? But if there's no zoning prohibition, the attorney general's office has essentially said that they have not put any provisions in place for ownership. And your points are all well taken and are a reality, but I would ask you, if somebody can build next to you an ADU, by right, without anybody being able to say no, they either pull a building permit, or they might need site plan review in Westfield through the ZBA, depending on the particular case. Would you rather have that be rented by somebody, or would

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you rather have pride of ownership, owner occupation? So in my case, the reason I'm going to condo mine off is because there would be a separate tax bill. And we call my mother-in-law Judy Booty. So Judy Booty's ADU will have its own tax bill. It'll have its own water line as required by the city of Westfield. It will have an exclusive use area on the property. We're going to do one driveway just because we're a family. I anticipate that in the future, that will likely be utilized by one of my seven kids between the two,

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my wife and I, or a family member, or it could be rented, or it could be owned by someone else. Now, that is a different scenario than someone else, right? So if you think of a condex in a duplex, right now, a two-family in the city of Westfield, a three-family, a four-family, an eight-family, could be completely condo'd off regardless of whether or not-- You guys don't have any provisions for any of those. You haven't protected that. I think the fear of the ADU

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and also the aspect that the accessory use needs to stay accessory to a primary structure, right? Which is either a single-family home, two-family, or three-family home based on the way the AG is interpreting it. So I'm going to stop in a second, but I think the big picture is ownership versus use. The use is already allowed. The ADU ship has sailed. They're going to be developed. Do you want them to be done in a fashion that they're rented, which is easily done? In our case, because there's a zoning freeze on

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Nathaniel Hill, so in our case, it's easy to do. Also, the provision that you put in place for kind of half prohibition, it says may, the language is a little soft, but it says there's a prohibition in the residence A zoning district. There's not one, or one single family. There's not one in the two-family. So Johnny Raymakers can condo his off because he has a two-family that exists. He's on Otis Street. He built a separate ADU with all separate services. The primary is the two-family. The ADU is the

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single-family. He has a really nice lady, I think from South Hadley, who's moving over here. She's ecstatic because it's a brand-new two-bedroom house with a single-car garage. Cute little unit. She's happy. He's going to retain ownership on the two-family, so he'll be the other condo owner, and that could be sold and those names could be changed. But that's no different than any other condominium. That's no different from any other duplex. You could buy a duplex tomorrow thinking that it's going to be rented and say, "Hey, I'd rather condo that off." Ray owns one. Cheryl owns one. They live next door to each other. Cheryl gets sick of Ray.

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She sells it to Mr. Seloy. So there's all these options, but is that really the intent to prevent that? And from an ownership standpoint and from a rental standpoint, the only regulations that the Commonwealth has on occupancy, is long-term rentals. You cannot do short-term rentals in an ADU. That's a restriction, and that's, I think 31 days, I think is how they define it. Anything greater than 30 days is considered normal rental, not

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short-term. I don't mean to interrupt you, but if I rent a duplex- Yeah ... I go into that renting it, or if I buy that duplex knowing that that's what I have. Same with a condo. Yes. If I have a single-family home- Yeah ... and I have an ADU that is owned by somebody else- Yeah ... and I want to sell my single-family home, I think it's going to limit maybe the number of people that are going to want to buy that single-family home because they don't know who's in that condo.

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They don't know who that's going to be sold to, and it's right there on their property. You mean, if you're in the primary unit? I'm in the primary unit. Yeah. And that's the way I'm looking at it. Yeah. But I think it degrades, in some cases, the value of that property, and it's going to make it harder to sell. That's the way I'm thinking about it. I tend to agree. I think there is some question about that. We have an example in East Hampton, same situation. Right. There's an extra side lot, but it's not quite big enough. There's a primary structure that exists.

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Right. They got an offer for what they were asking for. It didn't affect the value of that particular one. But- That's different neighborhood. It's not a high-end neighborhood, but yeah. But there was an ADU already on there. No, in that case, there was a primary. Right. So there was an existing, say, three-bedroom- Right ... small home. Right. They had a side yard that was vacant. Right. They can do the ADU in the side yard. Right. So, yeah. But the ADU isn't there now when they're buying it. It may have been a different scenario if that ADU was already there as a condo that was owned by somebody

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separate than the person buying the property. If you're buying it and you're going to put it in, that's one thing. I'm looking at it further down the road, Rob- Right ... as to, those are usually pretty close together, and that's your primary property. It was a single-family home on your piece of property, and you had control over it. If there's somebody separate that owns that, 90% of the time it's going to work out fine. Yeah. But maybe 10% of the time it doesn't, and you go to try to sell that, and there's somebody in there that

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makes it harder for you to sell your property. So how is that different than a duplex? A duplex you know when you go into the duplex what it is. I rent half of a duplex or half of a two-family home. I know that I don't own that. I don't own it, so I can leave. But- I don't have to sell it ... but there's two units there. So, in the primary versus the ADU, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. So in the- I'm saying that if I rent a- So the difference, excuse me, Jane, the difference is with a duplex, an owner occupying one side of

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a duplex- Yeah ... you have the right of eviction. Mm-hmm. So if you- No, let's call the duplex the use. So let's call it a two-family. Right. Yeah. Side by side- Right ... townhouse, two-family use. Right. So let's say you buy one. Right. One side, and Jane buys the other side. So now we have a context. That's the same scenario with the primary and the ADU. Same scenario. You buy knowing- Right ... knowing what it is. Yes. You buy knowing what it is. Yeah. And you may or may not know that person there. You have no control over that person. And they might be awful. And maybe somebody nice will move in. I know a lot of people in the 55 and olders that are having a lot of problems with

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people that move in around them, and they're kind of sorry that they bought there. I actually have letters from, I don't know if you know Michael Pill. You've heard of Michael Pill. So we have a bunch of letters from attorneys arguing that zoning doesn't dictate ownership. But the question is, why are we dictating ownership as a community? Is it to prevent ADUs? Because if it's to prevent ADUs, we're not doing that. Right. They're going to happen. They're continuing to happen. We see them all over the place. And Westfield is probably minimal in compare-- We must have 15 ADU projects in

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Amherst alone. So they're happening. So the question is, is the ownership really the question? Because you can have all these same problems with a tenant, and you can't get them out. Right. Usually, with the rental stuff. I'd like to continue this to when John is here, since John's the one that opened a can of worms. Yeah, me too. I was just- I think that's a smart idea. But I think this is really helpful because it wets the whistle, and it gives us the opportunity to go out, take a look. I was living in New York when they went through the co-op phase.

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Everything went co-op. 8, 10, 16-unit buildings converted to co-ops. Okay. I see both sides of the coin here. I do too, and it's not void of downside. To Rich's point and to your point- Yeah ... you could have a complete problem with your ADU neighbor or your primary neighbor. Sure. So that is an actual reality, but that's no different than any reality in any other condominium situation which is allowed, and which is not regulated. I think, if I have to guess, I bet you the Commonwealth within the next year

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will come out with some sort of, either there'll be case law, somebody will sue, and there'll be case law whether or not you can do that, because there are already some similar to that, or they're going to clarify it. But- When you're buying a condominium, though, you know that that's the situation. I want a single family home, and I want to buy this home. Well, I don't, and the person who's trying to sell that property may have a harder time selling it because the person buying it has somebody else owning a piece of his property that used to be the whole property for that main house. That's all I'm saying.

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I agree, and I think you might not want to buy it. I might not. Right. But someone- Right ... that can get into, and the whole idea is that, let's call it attainable. It's not affordable, it's attainable for that segment of the market. But they lost the value of that ADU that was there, that originally had value for the person putting it there. So- But the ADUs have more value for sale. But they gained the- It's like 30% ... I'm not arguing in favor of or against. I'm not either. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Yeah. Yeah. But they gained the benefit when they sold it as a

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condo. So- Right ... if you rent it, you build it for 100 grand, and you sell it for 350 as a condo, okay, you made your profit up front. If you rent it over the course of time, you make your profit every month as an annuity. I'm talking, though, about the person who owns the house originally. Now he wants out of his single family home- Mm-hmm ... that I, as a buyer, would be reluctant because first of all, I have a smaller yard. If I could rent it, that would be different, but this is owned by somebody totally

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different. Who has control over what? It's an opportunity cost, for sure. It's bigger. Yeah. Yeah. That's just what I'm- That's a great way to put it. It's an opportunity cost. Right. And Dylan's generation, the mere fact that they can get into ownership makes them the happiest people on earth. Absolutely, and I think there's something- Because it is brutally hard for that generation to get in ... there's something that has to be done about that. Yeah. I'm just saying- Something ... when I have that property, yeah, I sell the condo, I make out, but when I want to sell my primary residence, I may have a much harder time.

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And Dylan, I'm sorry, that wasn't a... No, I- Okay ... I was thinking about people younger than me. I don't know if affording a property is part of this discussion or not, but obviously people in my generation below can't afford that primary property regardless. I know that. ADUs could be a solution to that, but I'm not sure if that's part of the discussion or not. Right. It's- Yeah. I think the provision's more, not so much about the individual and the lot, but the neighborhood and the change

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from a single family neighborhood where this one entity's controlling this lot and this ADU to basically a- So- ... neighborhood with a bunch of- It's a good point ... increased density. So, it was the bigger picture probably the zoning is looking at than whether it's a- I realize that ... investment or- I'm just playing devil's advocate. I've heard the term, so give you my example. I live near Munger Hill. So, what did you expect when you moved there? You expected a single family residence, A zoning. Mm. You didn't expect the ADUs. I get it. But they're coming, and they're coming to those neighborhoods, too.

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Right. And really it's about ownership. It's not whether or not you think philosophically an ADU is a good idea. I think it's more, is it better to have somebody that has ownership? It's an opportunity to provide not only home ownership, but attainable homes in the city of Wesley. A basic home now, I can tell you from firsthand, a basic home is $400,000. Sure. Very basic. Yeah. If you buy anything below that, you're buying something that you're spending a lot of money fixing it up. It's probably built in the 1950s, and even then you might be paying that.

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So, the market is very... $400,000 does not get you the same that it used to. You used to be able to build a house in not that long ago. Nope. It's kind of crazy. But an ADU is 900 square feet. That's not going to afford a person who has the family ownership, as far as I'm concerned. Typically would not be a family, but- Right ... people starting out. So, do you have that picture on your drive? We have an ADU. I have to tell you, it's pretty cute. Oh, I'm sure it's cute. Two bedroom house, two car garage. Porches don't count. I'm sure it's adorable.

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I'm just saying, I know myself, I would never buy a property with an ADU or a condo on it. Just that's personal, but I don't think I'm the only person in the world that feels that way. No, I agree. So that person who's trying to sell that property is limited, that I may have normally bought that house, but because of this issue, I would not. So that's a two bedroom ADU with a six foot front porch, six and a half foot deep basement, walk in from the garage to the basement, two car garage, cathedral ceilings in The one side of the living side of the house, two bedrooms and two full

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baths in 900 square feet. I'm sure it's beautiful. It's nice. But that's not the issue. What's that? How many square feet? 900 square feet. Yep. That 900 includes the garage? Garages don't count. Basements don't count. Porches don't count. Basements count, but they have to be- Yeah, they have to be under- ... under half the rule ... 710. Some people say six and a half, some people say 710. But yeah. So- So you're crawl space ... I'm 6' tall, I can walk. No, it's not a crawl space. Johnny Raymaker's is a good example on Otis Street. I can walk through, no problem. It's interesting. How much would that sell for? In that neighborhood? So that's not a starter home then. No- Well, what neighborhood? The lots in my neighborhood cost 200.

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So, on Otis Street, a similar unit, not quite as detailed, is pending for 349. Still not cheap. Right. Anyways, that's- Just note, so in our single family neighborhoods, or both of them, there is a provision for two families through special permit. So it's not that we're exclusively special permit. So if an ADU were to convert to condo, it would basically become non-accessory and then would need to be considered a two-family

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dwelling. So I guess there's that mechanism, but... I got one question. You probably got it, and you probably got it. So if you have a detached ADU on your property, and you decide that you're going to sell that said ADU, whose frontage is it? So it's a common ownership in the land through the condominium association that gets created. What we've done on the case of Johnny Raymaker's, for example, we have an exclusive use area for the primary, and we have an exclusive use area for the accessory dwelling

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unit. There's a six-foot stockade fence, beautiful brand-new fence in between the two. You would never know other than the... So all maintenance is separated- But are we dividing the frontage requirement? No, it's all on one lot. All on one lot. Even though it's two different lots? So that's- The owner, they just own the units ... the lot is owned by an entity, owned by ABC LLC. It's pretty cool. And actually, that's a cute little one as an example. You would never know that they're on the same property. The lot is owned by ABC LLC. They have two dwellings on it. They sell one to Rob, they sell one to me.

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Okay. But the lot itself and the exterior of the buildings are owned by the condo association. How big was the original lot? He was just under the requirement for lot size averaging. So in the neighborhood on Johnny's, it's not big. It's what, 15,000 square feet, 20,000 square? It's not like a full acre. So it's a small- Small lot ... even smaller lot with a main home. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And again, for an ADU, it doesn't matter. It's lots and lots- No, I know, but I'm just saying, he sells the ADU, and it's got this amount of property with it because it's like a condo

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now, and then if he tries to sell that original house, he doesn't have very much land with it. That's my point of- Yeah, he has basically half of the subject parcel- Right ... in this particular case, that would go to the two-family, which is a rental- Right ... which really doesn't affect the value of that property. He actually just got an offer on the two-family from someone from the neighborhood. That was... So far, the few that have been done, we're not seeing any real significant adjustment in the home value. I do see maybe in the higher-end neighborhood that that could be the case.

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Yeah. Because obviously there is that opportunity cost of dealing with someone else. Right. For sure. And then you're buying that two-family, you have control over it. But when there's an ADU owned by somebody else, I'm just saying you lose part control over it. Yeah. If it was rented, you would arguably have control other than renters have- Right ... a lot of rights in Massachusetts. But yeah. Oh, I see. I think we should put this on August's agenda. We can continue it. Yeah. As long as John- Yeah. John's done a little more research on this. Yeah. He's a little bit more passionate on it. I'd like to- I'll just say this may be less important. Apparently, there's going to be a ballot question to allow lot 50 foot

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by 100 foot lots by right anywhere with- Say that again. Do what? Wow. When's that coming? I think it's on the fall. Say that again, please. A ballot question that would allow 50 by 100 foot, 5,000 square foot lots. Ballot question? 5,000 square foot lots. If you have city water and city sewer, by right. What's the frontage have to be, the 50? Which is... Yeah. So this is more of a feasible way of maximizing limited space. I'm thinking sardines. Similar to your infill zoning, right? Yeah. Where the whole premise is keep the density close to where you have city services, increase your tax base, hopefully

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create attainable homes. Well, you don't have as much land to build on anyway. But the other key to that with the averaging is to match the lot sizes in the area. Right. Yeah. I don't think we've ever done any at 50, even though that's kind of a traditional size. We're usually in the 60 to 70 foot range on our infill, but- It's tight with a 50-foot lot. I have a project in Chicopee we're doing, and there's 50-foot lots proposed for a portion, and it's pretty tight. You know those Sears and Roebuck homes? Yes. Those fit pretty good. Anything bigger than that gets tight.

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Somebody once told me the decisions you make now are the ones you regret 20 years from now. My planning professor that I had, John Mullen, my solution 20 years ago is my problem today, or vice versa. He's your problem today? Well, yeah. Zoning's constantly changing. We think we're creating good things, and sometimes we are, sometimes we're not, right? Okay. Anyway, that'll be interesting. Yeah. I'd like to see- Negate the need for our infill ordinance and probably a lot of this discussion too.

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Is it helpful to see examples? Jay, let's keep this in mind for next meeting. Well, I appreciate your information. But I can send Jay the ones we've done. Right. So you guys can see how they work. Yeah. Just a couple different examples. I'd be happy to. And then you guys can put them on the screen if you want. I'd love to see them. It's just a case study. Yeah. I would love to see them. Yeah. So for the September meeting, is what you're looking at? A couple of that one. Yeah, obviously. I mean, I can map- Yeah, September is fine ... 20 years. Yeah. September meeting. September? Okay. Yeah. Thanks for that discussion. Thanks, Rob. Thank you. Thank you, Rob. Next on the agenda is changes to Chapter 40A, Mass Zoning. So not on the agenda, just an announcement. The governor signed a budget bill that includes some changes

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to mostly variances on ZBA stuff. But, I sent you the changes. Okay. I saw. Do we have anything else we want to talk about? Where did you say? It should've been in your email. Oh, hold on. Okay. Good, I got that. Yeah. This, possibly the ballot question, and possibly some changes to the site plan approval statewide. We'll be looking at probably some updates to our local zoning at some point. Actually, I do have a question. Can you get a hold of those people with the solar field up on Southampton Road? There is so much trash over there, and it needs a good cleaning and mowing.

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It's right back to what we usually do every year. All right. Well, we can put it on the next agenda if you want. But they have been pretty good, I thought. No. Ray? The state mowed it for them the other day. Oh, is that what I noticed? Yeah. Oh. It hasn't been mowed in quite some time. And shredded the rest of the trash. Yeah. There's a lot of trash in there. We'll add that to the next agenda. The only good thing is the trees seem to be growing. They haven't got all dead trees up there at least this time. Yeah, they finally took hold. Okay. Do we have a motion to adjourn? Motion to adjourn. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. We'll see everybody next month. Enjoy the summer.