Not at the right time. Good evening, everybody. It is 6:00 on April 7th, and we are calling the planning board meeting to order. First on the agenda, public participation on anything anybody wants to talk about. Nobody's here. Next is review and approval of March 3rd and March 17th meeting. I make a motion to accept plans from March 3rd and 7th, you said? 17th. 17th. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Okay. Next on the agenda is public hearings.
And tonight we have Nick... Well, actually, let me read my little blurb here. We have zoning special permits and/or site plan approvals. After the applicant present the proposal, board members will begin asking their questions. We will then invite the public to ask questions of fact. We will have a separate time for the public to speak in favor of, speak against. When we recognize you, please come to the microphone, give your name and address, and direct all questions, comments to the board. The purpose of our public hearing is to allow board members to collect evidence and
testimony supporting or contradicting public published legal findings we are required to make and approve, or deny an application. We cannot act outside the bounds of the zoning ordinances nor the stormwater ordinance where also sought. Please understand public hearings are not a community referendum nor a town meeting. We ask you to keep comments civil and positive, remembering we're all neighbors working to move Westfield forward. While you are free to express your opinion, ultimately, legally, the board can only deliberate on the findings of fact, not on yours or our personal opinion. First on the agenda
is Nick and Ally Connor to amend conditions of a special permit granted for a commercial kennel dog daycare at 202 Union Street, zoned industrial A and floodplain. For this hearing, the chair recognizes Rich Sollo as the voting member for Cheryl Crowley. Hi, everybody. Mm-hmm. I'm Ally Connor, 75 Alexander Place in Westfield, and I'm the owner of Camp K9, a doggy day camp and sleepover facility located at 202 Union Street. I apologize in advance. I have a sore throat. I'm here today because I'm looking to amend my special permit.
Most of you probably recognize me from previous meetings. We've come before the board on three separate occasions. March 3rd of 2015, the year that we opened our business, to ask for our special permit to allow us to have our doggy daycare. May 3rd, where at that point we then expanded our total numbers. Our very first meeting, we were granted to have 25 dogs in the building only, and we came before you a year later, being busy and having the space adequate and asked to increase that number to 50 dogs a day, and we were
granted that. Then in May of 2019, we came back again and said, "Hey, we're looking to increase that number to 80 dogs a day because of the space allotment that we had in the building," and that was fine. I'm here today because a couple of weeks ago, on February 17th, another boarding facility/daycare came before you to... kind of proposed a similar concept of daycare in a kennel, and during their special permit hearing, they weren't given a restriction on how many dogs they could allow in the building. They, of course, suggested what they thought they were going to
do, but it wasn't really ever proposed back as like a have to. And so I'm here today, we've been in business now for almost 11 years this June. We follow all the safety protocols that are currently in place, and then some. We are currently compliant with what is accurate for Ollie's law, which as of right now happens to deal with licensing and a couple of other small things. Things like ratios and stuff like that are not really official yet through them, but we do find that we do follow company standards, and those are fine in our training materials across the United States.
So at this point in time, not necessarily looking to have 100 dogs in the building, but I'm looking to remove the 80 cap. We have the space in the building to go up to 105 dogs a day based on the square footage that we currently have. I'm not necessarily comfortable doing that, but I want to be able to remove that number because there are times, especially over the summertime, where we hit that 81 number. We do have a computer system that allows us to check in and check out the dogs, and it tells us what's happening. But what it doesn't account for is dogs going home. So a lot of times we will say have
83 dogs in the book, but realistically, three of those dogs go home at 7:00 a.m. And so it would be nice to be able to not turn away a customer, knowing full well that we would be able to accommodate them, only being 81 or 82. Might be kind of hard to explain without showing you on the computer, but, realistically the reason why I'm here is to remove that amendment along with the selling amendment. There was a second amendment given on my special permit on May 7th, letting us know that if we were to sell the business to anyone else, that number from 80 would have to drop to 50, and the overnight piece would have to go down to
And I'd like to remove that. I'm not in the market to sell, but in the off chance that I would be willing to do that down the line, I would want someone to be able to purchase the business as is, and not have to go down, as long as they're following all the rules and regulations that are currently in place. And because Ollie's Law isn't fully in place, the expectation of it when it is in place will put those things into place, such as ratios and things like that. And the organizations that'll come together to monitor those things should be enough to allow someone else to buy the business down the road and be able to
check on them and all of that. Go ahead. Questions? Any questions? It all makes sense to me. Is there a regulation that says we can't do what she's asking? I'm sorry. Say that again, John. Is there a current regulation that says we can't do what she's asking? If we didn't do it for the last one, we probably should just- Not that I know of There isn't a city regulation. So the problem is, is that kennels themselves, like the overnight piece, is what has been in the past regulated, but there's never been like a ratio to it. Where the daycare part, probably about 14, 15 years ago, became newer to the market, so to speak.
So before us, there was a couple other companies here in town, and there was recommended numbers, but there's no set law. Even in the kennel law itself right now, there is no particular ratio. There are recommendations through the trainings, but there's nothing in the law that says, "You can only have this per square foot." Ollie's Law is looking to do that. That's going to come down the road. As of June of 2026, that piece of the puzzle will now come into play. They'll start doing that more and bringing that to the forefront, but that's not something that's in the current law now. It's something they're working toward.
Isn't Ollie's Law going to call out the square footage per dog? Or- So as of right now, it's all in the planning phases. I attend most of the... I read all the agenda minutes, and I try to hit as many of the calls as I can. Unfortunately, they're at a very bad time during the day. But I do read all the minutes, and they're going there. It's going to get there sooner or later, but my guess is it's still going to be a little while. They still have to figure that out. The people that are on the board, the advocate, her name is Jen, who's advocating for the daycares and kennels.
She's trying to get the folks that are non-daycare kennel people to understand that the ratios can fluctuate based on size of the dog. And so that's where they're going to get hung up, but I foresee it happening down the road, but probably another year or two. That's supposed to be the end of June that that's supposed to be tied up, correct? So June 2026, everyone is supposed to be in compliance with what is currently Ollie's Law. So currently, Ollie's Law, back in, I think it was December 19th of 2024, was where they started implementing the city licensing had to be required at daycare facilities or training kennels.
That was one thing. The other thing had to do with collars. The safety aspect of things, which is ratio and dog counts, square feet, and a couple of other things like they're looking at overnight care ratios and things like that. That's in the second phase. That'll begin, my understanding, in June, and then they'll start proposing that, and then they'll have to start, I guess, voting on those things, and then it will come to light, I'm sure, at that timeframe. What is your total square footage? So inside the building right now, we're approximately 6,900 square feet. We've had a little bit of gain in our square footage. And then outside, we've actually gained a tremendous amount since we were here last
time. It's hard to kind of put a figure on it. I think when we were here back in 2019, we still had our original build-out outside, which was probably close to like a 10 by 12, 10 by 14. And now we have three separate play yards outside that are completely fenced in. And that's probably another 1,300 square feet outdoors. That's outdoors, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we've been offered additional space in our building, but I'm not ready to take that yet. How many kennels do you have now? So as far as kennel counts, there are 16 kennel units. We call them cabin units. And then we have large crates in the facility, and
we have another 25 of those. So that's it. The most we've boarded is about 40 dogs a night. So you think, and what is your play area now? The kennel space takes up what? About 1,100 square feet? The kennel area goes the long way across the back of the building, so I'd probably say about 1,100 square feet. Yep. So that leaves you with about 6,500 square feet inside. Yeah. There's five separate play areas inside that are large. And then there's a smaller play area that we would utilize if we needed it for a smaller dog group.
All right. Thank you. You said you're comfortable up to 105 dogs? Yeah, I would never do it, but I would be... Square footage-wise to ratio-wise, based off size of dogs, yes. But that's not what I'm willing to do. I'm not looking to do that. I just want the flexibility to go there. I know where I'm comfortable, and I'm comfortable closer to 90. When it's busy. On a regular basis, not so much. But I want to be able to dictate that myself. It's really hard for someone to understand who's not in the business, but you could get a day like, I'll give you an example. Last week on Monday, there was a lot of small to medium-sized dogs there, and there were 65 dogs in the building.
But to us, it feels like a small amount because they're so small. Other days there's 65 dogs in the building, and they're golden retrievers, and they're German shepherds, and it feels like a lot. Our staff and myself, we police when we say, "Okay, nope, we're not taking any more for the day." So even though that limit has always been at that 80 number, that doesn't mean we take 80. We have to look at size. We have to look at the play style of the dog. There's a lot of things that come into play with that. But there are times when you have a great group and it is 80 dogs a day. You also have to remember there's a daycare piece and a kennel piece. So you might have 45, 50 dogs on the daycare schedule already, but then you have
another 30 or 40 dogs that want to board. They're also playing with those dogs in daycare, but it's like crossing how they come and go into the building. So if a customer drops off their dog for an overnight and they pick it up at seven o'clock in the morning, based off the way it is now, there's times when I would have to deny someone coming in for the day because of the cap. So that's kind of how that works. You said the ratio allows you for 105 dogs in your space. Mm-hmm. What is that ratio of footage to dogs? So it depends. Like it's basic-
10 square foot per dog? It depends on the size of the dog. So it isn't a standard number, but basically the way it's looked at is 1 to 15 is the ratio. One staff member to 15. And as far as square footage per dog, it really depends. You're looking at anywhere between 75 and 100 square foot per dog, and that depends on the size. A dachshund doesn't require the same amount of space that a golden retriever would require. Obviously. Yeah. So the great part about the software that's out there now, and we've had it since we've opened, is that it tells you all that. We can see it. I can see it for weeks.
Mm-hmm. So when someone goes to put in a request, I can see everything, so I can say, "Okay, this is what it looks like right now. Nope, not based off of weight or size," or, "We can't take any more of that," but we maybe could take a 15 pound. It's very easy to see those things. Mm-hmm. But to be honest with you, that just comes with experience. We've been doing it a long time now, and I follow a lot of different training modules, and I know what works and what doesn't work in our area, and I'm very comfortable with saying no if necessary. And I think that's the one thing that separates me from somebody else is I'm not afraid to say, "Okay, sorry, we're full today," or "Nope, we're not taking this type of dog," or "We can't take your dog, it's too excitable during this type of
day." I'm pretty comfortable with what we do, so I'm okay with saying no when necessary. Okay, thank you. Mm-hmm. I just did some quick math. Sure. And with 85 dogs- Yep ... you're going to be good with about 61 square feet per dog. Per dog. Mm-hmm. All right. Back in 2015 when you came here- Yeah ... I wasn't part of the board, so I looked at the video today, and your husband had a very dapper suit on. It looked very nice. Yeah, he probably was dressed up . Well, and at that time, you were asking between 20 and 25, you got 25, and your husband stood there, and he said that you could probably ask
for 50. At the time. At the time. Yeah. But I wouldn't do that because I'm all about safety. Yeah. And he said the same thing when Agawam was trying to get in over here. Yeah. You were all about safety, wanting to know how many dogs were going to be where. Yeah. I just think in my mind that 85 dogs in that space is... 100 is crazy, but 85- I would never do that. Okay. Yeah. You just have to understand, it's not about having 100. No, I know what you're saying. It's having the ratio. So let me give you another example. We also do grooming, and so when we do bathing and nails, if I
have 80 dogs a day between daycare and, say, overnights, which again, is not every day, we're not talking about this being 365 days at that number. We're talking about certain times of the year that gets there. On an average, you're probably looking at 65 to 70. 80 is like summer vacations, April vacation, your main times of the year. But if somebody calls me and they want their dog's nails clipped, technically that's a dog in the building, so I have to say no. And based off of me being able to schedule my staff accordingly with that ratio of dogs that are in the building, I'm turning away clients because now that grooming client that wants a bath or nails, I can't accommodate.
When we were here at that timeframe back in 2015, and it's no different today, I'm still all about safety. It's why we have a lot of staff in the building, it's why we do evaluations, and it's why we consult consistently and update our training. I mean, we're one of the few that does that. But in reality, things change and grow, and our building dynamic has shifted. The way it looks like in the building today is not the same it looked like in 2015. We've learned what works and what doesn't work, and how to separate everybody and how to move everybody around. And one of the spaces that we created, and
if you watch the video back in 2015, and I think it's actually even mentioned in 2016, we had a dog park area in our building. So it was an indoor area of the building where customers could come in and bring their dogs and play with their dogs on their own. It was staff monitored.They had all the same requirements that they would have as a customer coming to daycare and it worked out okay, but it wasn't really like our environment here is not really the place for that. Um, sadly, customers don't really place their dogs the way that it should be, and it really was becoming an issue where we needed the space for daycare.
So that whole area is completely revamped. There's daycare, um, we call them squares, but they're playgroups over there now, where there wasn't before. Um, so things are much more spread out, where before it was just compact into one room. Now it's spread out throughout the building. And again, because that additional outside space gives us more to play outside, you're rotating the dogs more frequently, giving them more room to play. Um, so that's I think the biggest thing. But other than the outdoor space, nothing's really changed since 2015. Um, as far as the setup goes on the inside, on the left side of the building-
The square footage. Yeah. The square footage piece hasn't changed, no. The dynamic has changed. And again, I just think of, you know, your husband saying it. Yeah. I wouldn't do 50 dogs. Yeah. And now you're talking about doing 85. Yeah. So just, my thing is I'd love for us to wait till Ollie's Law is out- Mm-hmm ... and revisit this. I'd love to be able to table this right now and come back when Ollie's Law is done. And- Yeah ... by then, hopefully there'll be something that they can figure out. Yeah, I mean, I understand that. I think for me that's a little frustrating because at the end of the day, like when the previous place was here, they didn't have any limitations. We screwed up on that. Yeah. There's no question about that. You're not the first one to say that.
Yeah. And at that place out there, I don't think that's happening now though, is it Jamie? Well, whether it is or isn't, like that doesn't matter to me because it's not a competition thing. It's more of a fairness thing, right? And so my biggest concern when I came at the public hearing and where I'm here today is that like I'm literally losing business because like a place like that, and they're not gonna be the first or the last one, is gonna come and say, "Hey, we don't have limitations." Like, that's not fair. I think personally, I have proven because I have not have, knock on wood, incidents or accidents in my building and I'm present as an owner,
that I should be allowed to up that number based off of what I feel. Again, I'm not saying I'm gonna go to 100, but I wanna be able to go to 85 and not be like sliding it under the table. I wanna be ethical about like what I'm doing in the building and bringing in the right number of dogs and doing it the right way. I have followed the rules the entire time and I'm not about to stop following the rules, but it would be nice if I had a little bit of leeway. Um, and it is frustrating because the safety practices to me are so important, and I totally get the pushback on it. Um, but I really would ask you to reconsider the fact that I
should have a little bit more leeway on that. If you wanna cap it at a higher number, go ahead. If you wanna cap it at 100, 95, I mean, that's fine, but I would just expect going forward that other people have that same cap, and I would still ask for the removal of the selling of the business because to me that's not fair. So you'd be happy if we went up to 90 for now and then- If you went up to 90 for now and said 90 is what we're comfortable, so you have the leeway- Right ... that would be fantastic. Um, and if you wanna play out the Ollie's Law thing and see what happens with that, you certainly can.
But I would just ask that in good faith that anyone coming forward have stipulations and rules because it's not fair. Like when we came in 2015, I played by the books and I went to all the meetings and I did the round table thing and we went slow. We were given the example. I still am looked at as an example and I feel like I'm setting the example properly and, you know, it's frustrating to have other people come around and not have those limitations. You know? And I can understand your feeling and your frustration for that because I think, you know, I see your point of view on that.
Um, I could not come right out and say no. You know, I would, uh, do it the same with everybody. It depends on what they're presenting. Sure. And, but I understand where you're coming from and you have a very valid point. Right. You know, and the other thing too is that like I have been offered like more space in my building and I have declined it because at the end of the day, like I wasn't comfortable with it. But I could've easily taken the space that was behind me, which was another like 15 to 1,600 square feet and like then come back again and said, "Okay, can I have more?" And I wasn't wanting to do that 'cause I'm not comfortable with that. I just want to be able to have the flexibility to say, "This
is what I need to do because as a business decision- Right ... this is the right thing to do." Right. And again, it's not an every day all the time thing but it happens, you know. Sure. Absolutely. You hate to turn people away. Yeah. And I guess like what the biggest misconception is like kennels just are not what they used to be, right? It's not like you throw your dog in a kennel and you leave it there all day and that's how it works. Like we engage with these dogs all day long. We're an all-day play facility so these dogs are in daycare with staff all day long. They don't even go for a nap in their kennels. We do nap time in the daycare space. So these dogs are getting to know all the people, we're getting to know them, we
get to know the customer. It's a very like family friendly like environment. And so at the end of the day like, and I live here and I've made this comment before. I live here, I work in the school system, I'm on PTO, like I do lots of events here in town with my family. Like the last thing I wanna do is like upset somebody or do something wrong or not in the safety practice. Like that's not, I'm not looking to do that. I just want the flexibility to be able to run the business the way that I know how to do that and not turn someone away when there's a passing in the family or a birth in the family or an emergency, you know. And I feel like at this point we've proven that we can do those things and make
smart business decisions. Thank you. Anybody else? So, um, excuse me. I, has there been any talk with Ollie's Law about grandfathering? Um, no. If we said 100 today and they come back and say you only can have 85, are you stuck at 85? So this is the way that it works. So my understanding is that if a law comes into place like with Ollie's Law, they come out with something that says every single kennel needs to do X and it goes down to 85, then we will do thatIf Ollie's-- because what Ollie's law is doing is they're forming their own
committees and their own inspectors, for lack of a better word, and those committees are going to be policing that. And what I have found from my research and from talking to other people throughout Massachusetts is when they come and do these inspections, if they're not following those rules, there's a huge fine. So I would follow those rules. So if there's rules that come out that they deem that we need to follow, then we'll follow those. So if it comes to that, yes. So after 11 years, you clearly know what you're doing. I'm more comfortable with you deciding what your max should be than
a committee or the state. So I think 100 is a reasonable number for us to say. Mm-hmm. And if Ollie's law comes back and says otherwise, that's not on us. Yeah. I don't even think 100 is too much. Yeah. I mean, you just said that. 100- I think it is- How are you going to set a guideline for something that is- I think- square? I think based off the square footage that I have now, currently, it is a lot. The only thing I would ask you to just keep in mind is, although I do think that's a lot, and again, I'm not necessarily wanting to do that many dogs, I
would have to hire more staff, and I'm at the point where I'm not looking to do that. But in the off chance I decide that's something I want to do, I don't want to have to come back here every single couple years. What if two years from now, and this is possible, my landlord says to me, "Hey, there's a bigger space, there's an opportunity," and I want to take it. But before I can even say yes, now I have to come back again, have all these things. I would obviously have already done it before, where I've done the homework, put the staff in place. I will do all of those things before I do it. So if you were going to put that limit to 100 or whatever number you're going
to choose, you just have to know that internally, you have to trust me and trust me as a business that I'm not looking to do that within my current space, but I want the leeway. Because if I decided to have, let me give you another example, 80 dogs a day, and I decided to have extra staff working and do a bath promotion and bring in 20 dogs, just do a dog bath, I can't do that now. So look, when you're talking about Easter, the Friday before, slammed with bathing. And I couldn't take any of them because I was capped at that number, because for Easter weekend, obviously people are going away, and they want their dog busy while they clean and everything like that.
So it's a small example and kind of silly, but that's an example of an extra piece of our business that we have that I have to turn people away for because I'm full in daycare and kennel. Even though there's staffing in another room for that, I have to say no because it's total number. So if I'm hearing you correctly, the number that you're at right now, you could exceed 80 very easily and probably bump into 90 right now- Yes ... with cleanings and whatever else. Yes. Sometimes. That's why I said 100, because you mentioned 1,500 square feet that your landlord had that you-
At one point, yeah ... may or may not take. Correct. At one point he did offer that to us, yes. It sounds like you know what you're doing. Mm-hmm. You wouldn't do it unless you thought you could manage it. I still think 100 is a reasonable number because it's just one more hoop that you would have to jump through if you wanted to come and expand your business. Right. That's just one guy's opinion. Yeah. And I appreciate all opinions. I can take the feedback and the criticism, it's fine. I get the hesitation with the number. The bottom line is you just have to trust that we know what we're doing. And again, we haven't had any issues where
it would deem otherwise. And we've always played by the book and followed the rules and kept in a really good relationship with the ACO and all of those things, to the point where when Ollie's law came out last year, even with City Hall, I had to teach them what was happening. They did not know. So I am on top of it because this is my livelihood and my business, and I'm not going anywhere. So I want it to work, and I want things to be safe, and I want families to trust me, and I want families to trust my staff. And it's my name on the building. Even though it says Camp K9, it is my reputation. So I need to be able to be trusted, and
if I feel like it's too much, trust me when I tell you, I say no. And it's sad, unfortunately, that a couple of the people that are in the industry couldn't be here today. Just was unfortunately bad timing. Because they will tell you that I am very much a no person when necessary. I accept families and dogs based off their evaluation, and I will turn people away if we're full or if I feel like we don't have enough staff or whatever the case may be. The answer will be no if we can't meet the requirement by staff ratio, dog ratio, all of that comes into play. Other comments. I'd just like to say that I have been here since you came in the first
time, and each and every time you or your husband came in and very compliant, come to the next one. I got to ask for a couple more because things are getting busy. Yeah. The right thing every single time. And I was taking in consideration what you're talking about with 80 dogs, nails, grooming, so on and so forth. And if I think about it, I could have 100 wiener dogs in the corner over there or fill the room with 100 mastiffs. Yeah. So I have no problem with it. I wouldn't want to see your livelihood be jeopardized due to the fact that you can't do something that other people are
Able to do and as well as that the Ollie's Law is going to come in, it's going to change all you guys anyways. Yeah. It's going to bring- And part of the reason why I'm following along is because some of the stipulations that they're putting out there, like some of the recommendations they're making, like we're already doing them, which is great. Like I feel like check mark, right? Yeah. Like good for us that we're doing them. Some of them are simple, and some of them are really big. And the next piece of their phase is all about safety. And so, like we'll be as compliant as possible, like with all of that, and if we have to make changes, we're going to make them. I mean, just it is what it is. Because, again, I'm not going anywhere, so in order to keep the business and do the things that we're supposed to do, we will be compliant with whatever they're coming
out with. And I am following, trying to do the things before it actually becomes regulated. I'll give you an example. One of the things was they had wanted, some emergency preparedness stuff taken care of. We had already been doing it, but they were making a recommendation for fire extinguishers, to have more of them places. And we had already had them in the building, but I went out immediately and talked to the tech company that came out and added them. You know, it's like silly things like that. They haven't even put it in place, but I know it's going there, so- Amazing ... I'm already ahead of the game. Yeah. There's a lot of things that I'm doing that way to just make sure that we're all set. Is it so much the daycare, or is it so much the
side grooming that is... Like if it was at 80 for the daycare, right? Yeah. Just say. Mm-hmm. But with the allowed availability of another 20 just in grooming on top of that. Yeah. I mean- I'm just curious ... the majority of your business is daycare. Yeah. I would say it would go daycare and then your overnight piece, and then your grooming piece. Got it. The grooming piece is small, but we do have people that want to come in regularly for nails or baths or whatever- Sure ... dog teeth cleaning, ear cleaning. Mm-hmm. And those dogs sometimes don't belong to us as for a daycare person, or they do, but just come separately. Got it. And when you're talking about like holiday times, like Christmas time, Easter time,
things like that, it does get busier with those things. Remember, we don't cut hair, so we're not busy every day with that stuff. But there is times during the year where we're busier- Yeah ... with it. And yes, that would push us over the edge where you'd have to turn somebody away. It actually happened today. Yeah. Where we had to turn somebody away because we were already at our capacity, and it just wasn't the right thing to do. And somebody asked for a bath, and I said, "We can't do it today, but we can do it next week." And you hope they schedule it for next week, but you just don't really know. Or they're around the corner until the- Yeah. And you're talking about a 30-minute appointment, and you have to turn away the money that you're making for 30 minutes because you're... Allen, how many dogs can you groom at a time?
Just one. It's one at a time. So you only have... So one dog is there, the next one comes a couple of minutes before the appointment, so you technically have two dogs there. No, everyone's scheduled, so like if a dog, say, has an appointment at 10:00 o'clock, the next appointment based off their service would be when they left. Oh, okay. Yeah. If they're coming off the street, that's how it would work. Okay. If they're already in the building, that wouldn't apply. That wouldn't apply. Yeah. So you're basically just looking at maybe one additional dog at a time. So you have 80, and you want to expand it maybe to 85 or
90- Yeah ... to give yourself a little leeway for the overflow for the coming and going. Yes. But it's not like you have three or four groomers there at a time. No, it's just one. I only have one tub, one table, so it's only one at a time. Okay. It's the hardest thing too, like even with Ollie's Law and trying to like convey the same type of thing, they also struggle with it. The people that are in the industry totally get it, but the people that are on the board for it that are not in the industry, this is where they also struggle with it. If you were to see it in real time, I think it'd be easier to like see how it like all works, but it's the same thing with them too.
Like they have that... While they're trying to figure out their ratio piece of things and how many staff members and how many dogs and whatever, it's the same thing. Because it really does matter on sizing of the dogs, and it really matters on their temperament too. A lot of companies use like a green light, yellow light, red light system, and they'll only allow, say 90% green, which the dogs are fantastic and never a problem, and maybe the other 5% are yellow, and they're like wonky, and then there's a 5% that are like, you have to really be on top of them. We don't necessarily do it that way, but we definitely take more dogs that are in
the green, let's just say, than we do anything else. And so we want to make sure that we continue doing that safety-wise by doing those evaluations. But we are not a kennel that allows dogs off the street. I guess that's probably something else to point out. So dogs cannot just come into our building and just kennel. They have to be part of our daycare program. They have to go through the evaluation piece, and then once they pass and they're part of the program, then they can spend the night. So where other kennels that are around the area, it's like they'll just take the dog that's boarding for like the week in the summer, and that's it.
Never see them again. We don't do that. So that is also the other part, like when you're turning someone away, you're not turning someone away that's like new. You're turning away someone that's probably there like a lot. And that policy was changed back in 2020, where we were only boarding dogs that were daycare clients as part of the requirement. So the 100 number comes from not wanting to come back in the future in case you decide to expand and have more dogs. It's definitely futuristic, for sure. I mean, as a company, like we're growing. There are some things we've pulled back on, and there's some things that we're
growing, and so I'd like to be able to have the flexibility to do that. And again, just not have to have that, my hands tied with it. Excuse me. You know? That's all. Thank you. Mm-hmm. I just want to focus in on Ollie's Law- Sure ... and see if I understand this from what you're saying correctly. One, they are supposed to, end of June, start putting in the safety measures. Yes. Which includes staff-to-dog ratio. Yes. And roughly square footage per dog, depending on size. Yes. It seems like they're focusing more on staff-to-dog ratio right now than they are on square footage. Like they're talking about it.
Mm-hmm. But when you read minutes or like join in on some of the conversations they're having, they're really honing in on like the staff-to-dog ratio because in retrospect, the Ollie's Law came about because when Ollie was unfortunately, when he passed, he was passed away in a daycare facility that only had one staff member, and there was like 25 dogs in the building. Okay. So their focus is more that. So the other part of it is, if I understand you correctly, because clearly you are a wealth of knowledge. There is no doubt in my mind on that one. The state's going to act almost like OSHA for dogs.
Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. They're going to go out, they're going to look around, they're going to say, "You're in compliance. Okay, thank you. You're not in compliance. Here is your fine by the way, pay up or we're not going to renew your license." Yes. Okay. Because I'm viewing this, and Ollie's Law is in place now. The next phase of it is set to go in place. Yes. So right now there's phase one, we'll call it, I guess. I don't even know what they're calling it. But phase one had to do with licensure. Okay. So it had to do with very small stipulations which we had already followed, but a
lot of it was making sure that kennels had business licenses. But a lot of it had to do with just vaccinations, and it has to do with city licensing. So now everyone has to have a city license. I have to have everyone's city license, their tags, all these different things have to be in place now which we didn't have to do before. We only were required before to have rabies on premises. We do bordetella distemper because in the field, that's something that's recommended. So we've done that forever. But now city licensure. So part one is all of that. Part two, which is supposed to come out
around June 2026, will focus, I believe, more on ratio and safety. So is there a chance that phase two will not be enacted? Or it will be enacted, the question is when and what the limit is. I'm not on their board. I only can follow along with what they're saying and what the group that I belong to is in, and what they're saying when they're hearing live time, when they're hearing the meetings. When I'm only reading the minutes, and I couldn't answer that. I can tell you that with Ollie's Law specifically in this part one, December 19th of 2024 is when it was
enacted, and then it wasn't until a year later that it was like you had a year basically to get your act together and do all of these things. And then if you weren't, if this committee was coming around to inspect you at that point, then you'd start getting a fine. And I heard somewhere that the fine was about $500 if you were not in compliant with what is already in place. Because where I'm going with this is, I think it's a burden on the applicant to have to come back to us all the time, pay the fee, come back to us. If she's able to expand her square footage,
she's got to come back to us. There are limitations. She bumps up against the limitations. And as everybody said here, clearly she knows her business and does a good job at it. The other part is, Ollie's Law makes it a nat-- If it were in place and there was a restriction, either staff-to-dog or square footage, it would be natural for the board just to adopt that and say, "That's our standard." No different than our standard for the sign is no flashing 10 seconds. And that makes the business easier to
predict in town, which would mean maybe more dog kennels do come into town because it's predictable. And so I'm of the opinion, clearly, whether to me it's 100 dogs or 105 dogs or even 115 dogs, the applicant's going to do what's in the best interest of her business, and her business is not putting dogs in danger. And she's proven that. So to me, I'm viewing this as what's in the best interest of the board. And the question comes is, is the best interest of the board
to take the chance that Ollie's Law will pass and they will set a definable limit and now the state becomes OSHA for dogs, and we let the state do what they're supposed to do. Because it also gives the public the ability to pick the phone up and say, "Hey, state, go out there. They're breaking the law." And it doesn't come back to us. Or do we take the chance that phase two is not going to occur? I suspect phase two is going to occur. And so that's just my take on this.
As for whether we set a limit of 100 dogs, 105 dogs, 125 dogs, it's not an issue for me. What is kind of an issue, I will state this much, is the limit when she sells. Because when she sells, we're going to lose this quality business person who really does take care of dogs and, who knows that the next person's not going to put 125 dogs in because they don't care. I feel, going along with you there, that's a no-brainer to eliminate that, only because Ollie's Law is probably going to straighten all that
out anyway by the time- Right. Right ... they're done. They're not doing it anymore for a while. My whole thing is, well, I hope you're not. I hope not too, but thank you for saying I'm young. Allie, I just want you to know, I've known you, my daughter- I know ... back in the day. Yeah. She's there. I'm not being hard on you. I'm just going back to what Nick said. Yeah. And it was all about safety back then. Yeah. And I just want it to still be about safety. Yeah. So if you go with 100 dogs, you're going to have less than, that's going to be almost 50 square feet per dog. I know you don't want that. I don't. I don't want that. It's more just like, it's not even the number. I guess I would not like to focus on that. It's more just the other places said nothing, and it was frustrating to see that when it's like
I've done all those things right and you use the judgment call and said-- And I've even been upfront with the ACO and been like, "Okay, hey, I squeezed one in because I had to."Okay, fine. I just want to play by the rules, but I just want the same rules as everyone else. So I just feel like realistically, there shouldn't be a number. I'm going to not go beyond what is recommended in my area for square feet, and Ollie's Law is going to at some point, whether it's six months from now or a year from now, it is going to police me anyways. So that's the only thing that I would just combat with is that
in all fairness, and you have known me for a long time, and I really haven't had any safety issues. My husband comes from a safety background. I apologize he's not here today. He'd explain all of this probably a little bit better. But, number one thing is safety. Safety and health of the dogs. Really, that's just what it comes down to. So do we really have to put a number if we just say in compliance with Ollie's Law? We don't. So here's the- That's what I was just thinking. If rather than put a number on it- Here- ... say to comply with all state laws. Here's... Well, let me read the draft decision. Okay. Special permit, amendment number three, subject property,
202 Union Street. An amendment to conditions of a special permit voted 3/3/15 and recorded in the Hampden County Registry of Deeds at book 220636, page 48 and amended 5/3/2016 and 5/7/2019 per zoning ordinance section 3-130.310, allowing for a commercial kennel. Findings and special conditions. The findings described in said original special permit are
reaffirmed and the board, having further found the use has operated satisfactorily for several years, coupled with the state's recent Ollie's Law to further ensure safe practices, all conditions previously imposed are hereby removed. So basically, the draft condition says Ollie's Law is there and whatever Ollie's Law says, however they amend it year after year after year, they have to be in compliance with it.
But we should be setting numbers now because we don't want to set a precedence. Yes, we have a great couple here running a great business. Mm-hmm. What happens if somebody wants to open up another site? Well, you let them unlimited number, so why not us? And they may not be as ethical as these folks. Yeah. And I struggle with that, Bernie. But at the end of the day, are you selling your business in the next six months? No. Okay. No. No. So in the next six months, Ollie's Law should be in place or some semblance of it. Couldn't you just have a... This is just throwing it out there, but if somebody really came forward in the next couple of months or years or whatever, couldn't you
just put a stipulation on them that said, like when I came the first time, it was like, "You're going to start slow." Couldn't you put the same stipulation on them and then say, "Let Ollie's Law do the rest?" You could limit them. So, in the perfect world, she's not selling in the next six months, and Ollie's Law, in theory, would be in place, at which point, somebody just drops a dime to the state, no different than they do with OSHA. "Here you go. This place is bad. You need to go in there." Okay? And at which point we
can withdraw, we can pull back the special permit because they are in violation of the law. So, I'd love to limit it because I don't want to see the animals harmed by a new owner that is not as good as Nick and Allie. But in some respects, we don't have to because the law is going to do it for us. That's my read. That's my take. What if Ollie's Law does not have, and they may not... Well, do you think they absolutely will put a number or ratio per square footage? I can't predict the future, but based off what I'm seeing and reading and the
proactiveness that many of my peers are taking, I think so. Okay. I just think that it will be slow and steady because realistically, again, and I do mean it respectfully, the people that are on that board, the ones that are not in the environment of day cares and kennels, they're gung ho about all that, right? But they don't understand what's going on inside. So I do think there'll be a little bit of probably finagling and conversations and stuff like that. It will happen, but I think it might be a little slow. Okay. Yeah. But- Yeah ... not to be a smart aleck, Bernie, but this is Massachusetts. You think we're not going to limit something?
Oh, yeah. Okay. I'd love to see. Get an audit. Comments, questions? I don't see the purpose in bringing a limit down for the purpose of a sale. Okay. I think that's going to jeopardize maybe a profit in the future- Yeah ... for you to turn something around with whatever your limit may be. It's abiding by the laws that are already put together by the state, and we say, "Well, we're going to start them off at 25 dogs." Somebody might say, "No, that's-" They wouldn't buy my business. Exactly. Yeah. They wouldn't buy it. It would've hurt you and Nick at the end of it all. Yes, it would financially be a disaster.
Ollie's Law is a great thing in so many respects. There's things with it that I, of course, don't agree with, but there's a lot of things that are going to be really good. And one of the things it will do is it will stop people from just setting up shop. Yeah. It'll be for the people that are serious in this industry, and I'm not going anywhere, so. And I don't see you and your husband walking away and just turning the keys over- No ... to somebody who's an animal about it or however you want to put it. No. Like I said before, and I've said it a million times, I grew up my whole life here. My whole family's here. I'm not going anywhere. I don't plan on moving. So if the time comes when that decision has to be made where we have to sell
it to somebody else, hopefully it's years down the road, but when that happens, yes, I would with pride sell it to someone that knew what they were doing. We would do our research and homework and... So right around when the kids got to go to college, right? You would think of that? Who knows? Retirement's weird these days. I might be working there forever, so we'll see. Anybody else? Rich? I think we've got where we need to be. Okay. Again, I agree. I don't think we should limit it. I think let the law do it. It's set up, and being set up. And I think we need to trust this operator. I think it's worth the effort on our part.
Nobody has- Are we talking about opening this up to whatever they feel comfortable with? Is that what you're- That's my opinion. To be compliant with- To be compliant with Ollie's Law. But there's no Ollie's Law. It could be 18 or it could be two. There is an Ollie's Law. Yeah. It just doesn't restrict the number of dogs. I'm not qualified to say how many dogs she should have, so I'm not going to say. Bernie, if you're asking me, the answer would be yes. I would be opening it up to whatever numbers the applicant feels comfortable with. Because- And I'll go back real quick, it's the last thing I'm going to say.
Yeah. Is that Nick, when the Admiral place was trying to open up over here, Nick at least three times said, "You need to have 65 to 80 square feet per dog." Yes. If they bring in this, they're already below that. So I mean, that's fine. We'll figure it. I'm going to let this go. Video's forever. Hmm? Video's forever. Yeah, I know. I wish I never saw the video. All right. Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? I make a motion to close the public hearing. I assume there was no public comment. Is there any... Oh, I'm sorry. Is there public comment? No, thank you. I'm here for the other item. Okay. Ralph?
Okay. Do I hear a motion to close the public hearing? Veterans? I motion. Yep. Good motion. We got a second? Second. Okay. All those in favor? Aye. Do I have a motion on the special permit? I move we approve the special permit changes per what you read, opening it up to making it based on the- Removing restrictions ... laws in place in the state. I don't know how to say that right, but- You basically said it. Compliant. Do I hear a second? Second. Okay. Well, we'll start with Rich. Yes. Ray? Yes. Jane? Yes. John? Yes. Bernie? No. And I am a yes. Okay, congratulations. Thank you. So to be clear, there's no stipulations for
either? No stipulation for either. Okay. Okay? Thank you. Not until Ollie's Law comes in. Perfect. Thank you. All right. Next on the agenda is review of plans A and R for 7074 South Maple Street, Chambers. So this basically takes two abutting lots and chops them up into four. Can you pull it up, Jay? Please. Do you want to see the- Well, I'm looking at it now ... see the before? ... and I don't get it. So it's these two properties next to each other, and then the plan you have creates four lots out of the current two.
So 100-foot frontage in this district, which they all have. That's, I guess, pretty straightforward for A and R. Okay. If you look at the back end of the main lot there, there's three little pieces there that look like they're land-locked. That doesn't change from where it is now? That's not part of this. So that's abutters land. That's not being affected. Okay. So that's existing as it is right now? Yes. Okay. It's just that dashed line around the perimeter that's the affected properties. Did you say they were dividing it into four lots? Yep. So they're labeled lot one, lot two, lot three, lot four. Four on the corner.
Oh. Three, four. Thank you. Other questions, comments? So my initial question is driveways and stuff, but I guess it doesn't matter. It's the responsibility of the new owner to put in driveways, right? Yeah. Zoning issues aren't really, not that there's an issue, but
you're just looking at does each lot have adequate frontage, being 100 feet? Yes or no? Yes. And is such frontage on a suitable way, Lois Street or South Maple? And I would assume those are suitable ways. That's really the only questions before you. Since I can't read the numbers on this, do they all have the required frontage? Yeah, 100. The corner lot takes its frontage on Lois Street. Oh, okay. And the other three are 100. They all own square footage. They do. It wouldn't matter for an ANR if they did or not, but they do.
I see. Yeah. Oh, okay. 10,000 is the minimum in this district. Okay. I move we approve the ANR for South Maple Street and Lois Street. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Anybody opposed? Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that out loud. I'm Nick Buttery. We're wondering if all those landlocks come with buying. I support this. If anybody had any questions, I was going to support this. I'm the director of budget. Thank you. I think that's it for our meeting. Anybody have any new business, future agenda items? I'll just note, I don't know if you heard, but city council is looking at
a moratorium on data centers. Data centers. Data centers. But not battery storage. Well, we already put the battery storage one in. Okay. Keep them coming. So the one we approved would be part of it or not part of it? Well, it still has a valid permit, so it wouldn't be affected. Okay. At least not yet. So do you know when that's through, Jay? I think it's later this year. October-ish, probably. Yeah, I think so. There you go. Unless there's good cause for an extension. Anything else? Okay. We got one 6:00 down. Is it good or bad? Well, it's good to me. Yeah, it's perfect. He's doing second shift.
Honestly, I didn't know. I should've known. Sorry, guys. It's all right. Last night. It's all right. You're here. We voted for you anyway. I know. I got docked and moved over one. Yeah, at the bottom. That's what happens- It's all good ... Dylan, when you're not here on time. Hey, you know, fair. You get kicked out of your seat. I'll take my lashes. I was a little nervous here because I was the only one here for a while, and I was like, "Oh, this could be..." So, all right. I make a motion to adjourn. Second. All those in favor? Aye. See you guys on the 17th? 21st. 21st. You know how it is. See you all on the 21st.