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There being 6:30 on June, I'm going to start the zoning appeals offer the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation

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under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> In accordance with mass, general watch chapter 38, section 20 committee is being recorded. Vice Chair Kazaki is going to chair uh the the hearing tonight. So, >> all right.

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>> You're on. >> All right. So, the first order of business is uh for Zero Horsene Neck Road, a continue hearing on an administrative appeal of Robert M. Hannes III and Shauna Weteser. From a letter issued by the zoning board, the the building commissioner and

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zoning enforcement officer that the curric property is undevelopable land. The subject property is located at zero Horses neck road, Westport, Mass and is shown on the assessor's map, 45 lot 8. Um, Maria, who was here

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at the LA that that the original one because Constance isn't with us any longer. So, I want to make sure that we have the right voting members. >> All right. Well, it was the five regular members. >> Well, minus >> everybody else has been here.

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>> Were you here for zero horse neck road? Everybody's been here. >> No, >> she was out for the bambino and >> right was March. I was away the beginning first week in March. So, I don't think I was here for that.

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>> Yeah, she Janice was not here on March 11th. >> So, but you were >> I was here, >> right? The voting members are Jared Cino, George. >> Yes. S Roger Manard, myself, Cynthia

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Zachwoods, and Kevin Moff. Uh, do we have anybody for Yeah. >> for Zero Horse Road? Yeah. Come on up. >> Name and address. >> Uh, Robert Haynes, 197 Main Road, Zero Horse Road. Uh, we would like to

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withdraw our petition without prejudice on that project. meet this in writing. >> I have >> Okay, >> I have something >> um I guess just for the audience's uh

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benefit. So, he's asking to withdraw this without prejudice. That means he can come back to us at any time. If it was withdrawn with prejudice, he would have to wait uh two years. So, um is there any comments from the audience? That'd be great. If not, we'll the board

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will discuss All right. >> Anybody from the audience? >> Right. >> Okay. Oh, he's got to read it, doesn't he? >> Got to read it. Yeah. >> Oh, yes. >> And they gave you a weapon. >> Okay. Can you You want to read it? I,

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Robert Haynes, petitioner, request to withdraw the petition regarding the property located at zero horse neck road currently pending before the zoning board of appeals without prejudice. >> Discussion. >> Any discussion? >> I I have

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Did Did you make the motion yet? >> No. >> No. >> Okay. >> We're discussing. >> I want to wait till want to wait till the motion's made and then I can comment. What were you going to say? >> The motion to accept it or >> I'll make the motion to accept it then.

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>> Okay. I second. Okay. Now we can discuss. >> Okay. Uh the only thing I'd like to know uh is they've been before us before. Uh and um I I know they also have done some things since then. So, I would like the

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applicant to just let us know where where they've what they've done, what the um what the status of it basically is. >> We're still weighing options. Um the status hasn't changed. It's >> Did you go to the planning board? >> We have. >> Yeah. Well, that's what I'm talking

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about. Things like that. What did they do or didn't do? Uh we met with the planning board um in regards to uh like basically um whether or not where our property was

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was on that lane was buildable or not and uh where that property is does not. So we are weighing our options. >> Did you know what the options might be? >> Uh not at this moment. >> Okay. Well, I I did watch the uh the planning board meeting where they

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presented and there was some mixed feelings uh mixed um thoughts on uh it basically seemed to be that uh the laneways

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didn't go up to the actual lot itself. Is that fair statement? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh so uh so anyway, they they basically said, but there were some other options that they could work on.

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So maybe that's what they're working on. >> All right. Any other discussion? Shall we all vote? >> We have a motion. The second? >> Yes. >> All in favor say I. >> I. I. >> I. >> Ah. Motion passed. >> 20 days. >> Oh, there's a 20-day appeal period. So,

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well, you're not going to do anything anything anyway. So, it's not like you're going to start something. So, >> thank you guys very much. >> Can I ask a question about that to Attorney Blake? >> Sure. >> Uh, is there an appeal period for for a withdrawal like that?

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>> I I when when the chair >> I wouldn't think so. >> I I don't know that there is. I mean, it's a I I I don't know that it's a decision of the board that is appealable, and I frankly don't know what the remedy would be on a on a successful appeal. >> Right. So,

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>> you would it would probably just be prejudice then, right? And then they would have two two years. I mean, >> yeah. I I you know, and but but I frankly think that the next thing if they come back to you is going to be something substantially different because the two-year >> limitation probably wouldn't apply

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anymore. happens. >> Well, I you know, I would think that somebody I mean, if you know, if I were in the audience and I had an objection, >> why couldn't I appeal it? >> Um, that's why I'm saying I I suppos it

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is a decision of your board, >> which I guess under 48 is appealable, but at the end of the day, what's the what's the remedy going to be? >> Right? >> I It's one of those where I mean, you you might win. I doubt a court's gonna say >> you could you couldn't withdraw it.

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>> You can't allow them to withdraw. >> Yeah. I I doubt that. And as the as the vice chair just said, you know, maybe say with prejudice, I >> I don't see a court doing that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I just don't >> to to your point, if you were in the

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audience and you wanted to to comment on, I could see where you could comment on it and and maybe bring up some other issue as to why we shouldn't do it. But as far as the 20-day appeal is what I was really referring to and you know

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like you said what are you gonna do about it? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> All right. So the second case on the agenda is for 112 Reed Road which is a continued hearing on the application of Ron Frankower applicant and Ronald

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Frankower and Adam there's there's three of them. Adam Frankauer owners for a variance and her special permit to construct an accessory dwelling unit of 1750 square feet for a handicapped individual with an attached oversized garage exceeding the size of the

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dwelling as mandated by the zoning laws. Article 9 section 9.5.2 the property is located at 112 Reed Road Westport Mass and as shown on the accessories map 33 lot 76. Were you here for this one? >> Mhm.

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>> Okay. So the members Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. The voting members are Jerry Cino, George >> Stalgis, >> Stalgis, Stalgis, >> um I don't know. Mine is so easy. I don't know why with yours, Roger Bernard, myself, Cynthia Kazakowitz, and

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Janice Dy. Um, do we want to read this into the >> Um, I that's just a >> I don't think that's that's really pertinent. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Okay. Good evening. Uh, Sean Leech representing the applicant, Adam and Ron

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Frank for 112 Reed Road. This is a we're proposing ADU. We've made a uh revision. the initial application originally we were proposing 1700 square foot uh in this location we

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since reduced that to 1,200 square ft similar location increases the offset all the property line >> because of the red reduced >> the 1,200 >> 1200 >> that's including the garage >> no

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>> no 1200 it's 30 by essentially a 30 by 40 >> oh I didn't see the extra your thing here. >> Oh, that I did the same thing. I thought we were at like 960 >> 900. >> Yeah, I thought we were at 960. >> So, we revised the plan. The plan you see, the site plan you see in front of you shows the location, which is similar

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to the location we had before, including some offsets to a budding property lines that we thought would be helpful like where the septic system would go and that type of thing. and also some existing lot statistics over here on the left which show the gross area of the existing residence and some math of you

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know 900 square ft or half 50% of half the gross area of the existing resident and it's all and we're with a simple statement that says we're seeking obviously a variance to increase by the reason we're doing that >> don't say you're seeking a variance >> excuse me

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>> this is a special permit >> special permit yes All right. So, we've also submitted uh a floor plan of what's being proposed. Uh it's the same plan you have other than what I've shown here

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basically and I think I included with the package the ADA recommendations and the ADA standards for handicap access and other assorted things that we can get into. Essentially, what you're looking at here is a 30x40 and a twobedroom

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essentially with a kitchen, a entry hallway, which we're going to need a ramp in the garage. The garage doesn't count. I understand so we're not considering that. Circles that you see here is the minimum turning radius of a wheelchair recommended by the ADA. That's 60 in 5

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foot turning radius. And all these show 36 in doors. What we're also showing and when I submitted the ADA stuff is some of the requirements like the entrance to a handicap bathroom, uh the amount of room you needed for a toilet, a sink,

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and those type of things. And just to give you an idea of how small things are, this is a bedroom here that's 12 by 12 >> with a queen size bed with at least 3 ft on each side for a wheelchair to get in and out of there. And you'll notice there's no furniture in this at all. No

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dresser, no anything. That's how small we could possibly make it. We do have a I don't know a walk-in closet or closet that's handicap accessible off the bathroom, but this is like the minimum size of bedroom possibly be for a handicapped

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individual. We also have another bedroom that we discussed before people who need to uh take care of Yeah. This is actually about 9 by 12 which is a very small bedroom, you know, with an average

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size bed in there that gives you basically a kitchen that's pretty good size. And that's needed because of the access you need under the sink for a wheelchair access to refrigerator access for turning get to a table or an island.

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Uh leaving three feet so a wheelchair can get around the perimeter. And what we're trying to demonstrate here is, you know, 1,200 ft is not a lot of room. very handicapped individual. If you're if you're having this type of setup, I

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mean, this is minimal counter space for a kitchen with a refrigerator, a minimal table. I mean, we are showing chairs, but we have to have a roll in. This is a minimal entrance. Barely can get a 60in uh circle in here. If you're coming in

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from the garage on a ramp coming through here, you can put a washer and dryer here and probably a place mud room type thing or something to put, you know, clothing or whatnot. But even this area to get into the bedroom is minimally spaced.

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The 16in surface to turn around to go into bedrooms or what have you come out here. It's just barely big enough for a wheelchair. And this is,200 square ft that you're looking at. and with a a

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decent size living room. Uh, but none of these rooms are oversized by any stretch of the imagination and they need to have three foot clearances to get around certain things with a wheelchair. That's what's recommended and advised by the ADA.

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>> Where's um where's your entry point? >> What? >> You have you have to have two egress points. We're going to have probably have to have a front door in the front here. Uh we've eliminated the

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idea, but we're probably also too that this would further complicate this situation in here. The access to and from the house in front. I mean, realistically,

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you're going to have obviously 112 pitch to get into that front door for that thing. You're also going to need here, which is why we need kind of an oversized garage to get a van and access there. >> I'd like to uh get a couple of basic

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things out of the way. Uh we have a note from Maria here. Uh and and I'm not addressing at all the size requirements for handicapped person to get around.

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The memo from Maria says that in a discussion with the uh Westport planner Mike Burrus uh the planning board hasn't receive anything regarding this property which there would be no need to anyway.

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Uh but he suggested uh Michael suggested that the applicants petition for a duplex which would be attached to the main building uh and would eliminate the need for an ADU uh as well as frontage issues. Uh Ralph said that that may be a

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viable solution. So I want to just put that on the table here. Um but I have a question about that. What is the frontage on that property? >> Uh 5125. Okay. I thought it was very narrow, >> right? And they re they received a

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they had they had been a a variance, right? Previously, >> they had received a variance 40 years ago, >> right? Which not for a duplex, >> right? Correct. >> A duplex would be 200 square feet. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, I do not know why Ralph or Michael

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would say that that was a viable solution >> uh to this unless they came and got a um variance. >> Yeah. >> From us. So, they still need to be in front of us. I want to put that on the table. >> The second thing,

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>> but that lands off really quick. >> Like might be tough. >> Yeah, that's a very difficult thing to do. >> A land drops off real quick. >> Yes, I know. But that's why I'm saying to you that >> that we need to eliminate that as a a potential.

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>> Yeah. And it's also to see the hell it's >> cut into the the existing houses cut in. So this would not be you'd have to get an elevator probably to if you did if if there was room for duplex. You'd probably need an elevator. >> It would be a logistic nightmare. >> Yeah. The other item I have for Attorney

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Blake, uh I attempted to get an answer to this at the last meeting, but it wasn't on the agenda. So, uh now it becomes part of the agenda because it's part of this hearing. Uh and that is there's this is you're still proposing

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this as an ADU, correct? >> That's correct. >> Okay. uh the uh the law changed as we know this this year >> and and um I'm I'm not an expert on on the ADU law in Massachusetts

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um but um it seems to me I read where a maximum size of an ADU under the new law uh I believe it was a law and not a regulation uh was 900 square ft. Uh, but

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they defined it as gross square feet. >> Yep. >> Now, well, >> could you clarify that? >> Gross gross floor area. >> Yeah. and gross floor area. Under the regulation, the sum of the areas of all stories of the building of a compliant ceiling height pursuant to the building

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code, including basements, lofts, and intermediate intermediate floored tiers measured from the interior face of the exterior wall or from the center line of the walls separating buildings or dwelling units, but excluding crawl

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spaces, garage parking areas, attics, enclosed porches, and similar spaces. I think what you were driving at is is the garage counted and under these regs, the state regs, it is not counted. >> It is not. And that's not gross. Um, >> gross floor.

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>> I'm trying to get the difference between net and gross. Um because uh I've spoken with Ralph about it and it seems like well I'll go backwards and say that before the Massachusetts law regarding

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ADUs we handled several ADUs on this board and we always uh with Ralph's advice uh Ralph determined that grow um the square footage which was 900 and

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some cases and 750 in others. Um the gross uh the not gross square foot max uh did not include any non-heated non-conditioned

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spaces. Uh so if you had a a basement for example that um theoretically with gross could be in included but that says crawl spaces uh >> says crawl spaces are excluded.

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>> Right. Right. >> So therefore basement would be >> no it says basements are included but it have to they have to have sufficient ceiling height pursuant to the building code. So I think a lot of I mean now a lot of basements probably do have I

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think it's 7 feet building code in order to be a habitable room. >> 72 I think. Yeah. >> Yeah. So it says the sum of the areas of all stories of the building of the building of compliance ceiling height pursuant to the building including basement lofts and intermediate

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uh intermediate floor tiers. And they're measuring from the interior of the exterior walls. Right. was basically probably wherever you can walk. >> Heated or unheated >> doesn't say anything about heat.

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>> That's that's my point. Ra Ralph and I'm talking as late as this week when I asked him this question. and he said um that um basically it's unconditioned

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uh airspace uh you know was not heated not air conditioned and so forth um and uh and that's not the way I thought I read it uh uh so so an unheated basement if it had the ceiling

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height would be considered as part of it >> but in this case either one is very different than than I'm I'm reading that. >> Yeah, it sounds to me like in reading this garage parking areas are not

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included in your gross floor area determination. >> I can understand that. But um the u the max under the state law is now a flat 900. No, it's 900 or or 50% of the

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primary structure. So in this case, it the max would only be >> whichever is what 780 >> whatever one is less. >> Right. Right. So those are by right as well. Right. Those are by divine amount bigger if you >> That's what I'm getting at. So

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>> uh John is showing us where um a handicap unit couldn't survive at 900 ft is >> with a caretaker. >> With a caretaker. >> Yeah. Remember when we did ours, we put that handicap portion in because >> we were we were no we were we were sort

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of thinking of that like i.e. it's it's it's it's it's uh uh children taking care of a handicapped parent now and things like that. This is sort of the opposite in which there need they need to have a living caregiver

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where we never really addressed we never really had that. >> That's right. We've never done one with an extra thing. So, but um but that's why I'm trying to find this out. >> Is there any exception in the law part

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for a larger unit by right >> not by right >> with for a caregiver to >> I think that there is the ability to make reasonable accommodations for people with with handicaps. So, um, I

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think you'd have to read all of you'd have to read that into it. And I do believe there's actually something that says very similar to what your bylaw says, which is that you can the zoning board of appeals may allow may allow may grant I think it's a typo, but may allow

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may grant reasonable and necessary accommodations relative to accessory dwelling for persons with disabilities and limited mobility. But he he he's in here asking for a special permit. So this we're not talking necessarily about >> about the law that that if if he was if

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he was 5 if it was 900 ft or half of the 1758 he wouldn't even be here >> because by law they they don't need they don't >> they they don't need to come to us anymore. >> So here they're coming in. And so we can do we can make it we can't make it more

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we can't make the state rule ma or mandate more restrictive but we we have the purview in town to make it >> correct >> as liberal as we want. >> You could you could have made it 2,000 square ft by right >> in your zoning bylaw. You didn't and you

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and you you kept it with you mirrored the state law. But yeah, >> I do want to point out on the 1758, which is what the tax card shows, the gross floor area, that's incorrect. The actual gross floor area is 2130.

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>> Mhm. I thought it was bigger >> on the existing house. Some of the dimensions, like for instance, the 30 foot dimension is actually 32. And >> so I just wanted to point that out and I did the math over here on the side to show you that basic if you did 50% it'd be,65 square ft.

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Now, our bylaws, as you just mentioned, allow accommodation for someone with disabilities. >> Mhm. >> And he just briefed a bedroom with no furniture, no closet.

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>> Well, closet. But >> now, I personally don't like that. Be my my beef with that is this person should have some independence even though they're in a wheelchair. And my view of no closet, no furniture

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is no independence. I think the bedroom should be bigger. >> Well, no. The bedroom two has a closet, >> but that's not for the person. Bedroom one is is >> just 12 x 12, which is bigger. I have my

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bedrooms aren't any bigger than that. We have a closet in it, >> but there's no closet on that. >> There's no closet on >> on this. And also the the three-foot requirement to be able to get a wheelchair on one side of the bed or the other side of the bed. >> But you only but you only need that for

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the one who's in the wheelchair. >> That's correct. That's correct. But and I don't disagree with Mr. Jones because this is like a scenario trying to point out that this would be really tight >> to accommodate a handicapped individual.

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>> The other bedroom has a closet. It's off It's off the the second bedroom has a closet as well. a rather large closet. It's off the bathroom. >> Yeah, it's it's really like 2 by8. I don't know if that's considered a large closet. I don't >> Well, it looks compared to everything else. It's >> No, I don't disagree.

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>> I just one uh Attorney Blake I know this is probably splitting hair, but we've always considered the 900 square ft to be live livable space. >> Yeah. I think I think that the gross floor

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>> the inside the the interior walls then we we subtract out because that's not livable space. >> Great. >> I mean it's it's kind of cutting hairs an awful lot of square feet but still it's not livable space. >> I had a discussion also about you know

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measuring to the outside of the garage wall. Yeah. I I think under the under the statute, the gross floor area talks about the interior edge of the exterior walls. >> It doesn't say anything about the interior.

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>> That's right. So, I I I think that that would be included. I I >> It's still It's still not going to get us to 900. So, >> you're being more inclusive. So, I think you're probably okay >> doing that. You'd be you're being >> uh No, you wouldn't be you'd be giving

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him a larger building. Slightly slightly larger. >> Slightly larger by the by the size of the 2x4s. >> Yeah. >> Multiple times, but still you're probably talking about >> because that's living space. >> Yeah. >> You're not living in the in the inside of the wall. The gross floor area um it

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says is not larger in gross gross floor area than half the gross floor area of the primary dwelling or 900 square ft whichever is smaller. The definition of gross floor area is from the interior of the exterior wall. So I I don't think

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it includes the partitions. >> Okay. >> We're still we're we're still over. So, I mean, but but we're a lot we're it's it's it a lot closer than the first one. >> Yeah. I

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>> mean, I would I mean, another again, I I I don't think it matters. I I you know, if we approve this, I if if I would if the bedroom too is meant for the individual who is handicapped, I would get rid of the closet and put it somewhere else. Maybe along maybe just

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do a furniture, you know, an armwire or something and not have even have any um walls. >> Are you talking about bedroom number two? The handicap. That's not the handicapped one. >> That is not the handicapped one. >> No, bedroom number two. >> Bedroom does not have a number, but

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bedroom number two would be the >> person who Okay. So, so bed so regular bedroom. I mean, I would actually just take out that wall actually and make it completely open concept, but that's just me. But that's, you know, it doesn't matter. It's not going to change it's not going to change the what we're talking about here. I was just thinking like you don't really need this door

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here. Um, and how does that individual So, the individual get comes out this way. Okay. Because it's the you go to the bedroom, then the bathroom, and then their closet. Okay. And that's why it's this one is square so they can get the wheelchair in there. And >> correct. There's a closet there.

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Actually, there is. Yeah. There's a M. >> I didn't see it either. What does the uh state law say about accommodation? That's right. I I'm I'm going through the rags. I don't see it in there, but there is the ability under state law for

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for the architectural review board or boards are required to make reasonable accommodations for uh those with handicaps. >> Right. So, the word reasonable is is in that >> it's called it a reasonable accommodation. It's not in this reg, but the architectural review board has that

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in their regulation. >> So that is equivalent to what we had in our own town. >> Yeah, I think it is >> by law in the past. >> I think it is. And we still have we still have that. >> I always encouraged to try to think about that because even if they may may

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not be handicapped now, they may be in a in a certain future. uh but uh but we never set any guidelines as to how we make a determination of reasonleness. Yeah. >> And and I guess I'd say the same thing

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here. Uh I mean we might think it's uh 3,000 square feet is reasonable and we may think no. Well, I I think what it would it would really depend if you had, let's say, four individuals with handicaps that required sign

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significantly more space for X, Y, or Z, then that may be a reasonable accommodation. >> I'm not I'm not saying that it that it is, but it just may be. And and and I think that's one of those things where you guys make your judgment as to whether or not this is reasonable. >> Yeah. And I think we sort of did that

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last time. We thought the 1,700 was unreasonable and we said, "Give us something a little more reasonable." And I I think this is much more reasonable. >> Um, you know, you could also put you could also make more room here and put the washer and dryer in the garage, but

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um I mean, you know, just because I you've been saying, but you know, I said my my own house is about the this size and there's there's only one bedroom, so there's more there's there's more room elsewhere, but um it's definitely >> Yeah. Does a state law um

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>> they have two uh they take a lot of >> maximize bedrooms because it our our regulation had one bedroom. >> No, it doesn't. >> Not anymore. >> But not anymore. >> But the state law does not. Correct. >> Correct. >> That's right. >> It doesn't address bedroom size at all.

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>> Okay. >> They just said 900 ft. So you can do 900 ft with one bedroom or you can do 900 ft with, you know, four bedrooms. It's like depends on how small you want the bedrooms to be and what else you want in there. >> It gives you an idea of what 900 square ft would be. It would be basically

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removing all >> Yeah. No, I mean I mean I you've done to in my opinion you've done a good job compressing it to to what I would say is probably

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the minimum you could actually use. I I you know >> it's got to be functional. you maybe have to maximize the floor plan a little bit better. >> I don't pretend to be an architect or a >> player, but but yeah, but you know, I think that you've got I think you know, you have two reasonable size bedrooms,

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you know. I mean, yes, you say they're small, but you know, if you look about the houses that were built in the turn of the century, those were 11 by 11, 10 by 10 with closets that only >> with closets that only held, you know, your one shirt, your two shirts and your one pair of pants, right? I mean, so

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it's not it, you know, we've just sort of superersized everything in our um so I know I definitely think this is livable. >> How is adding a front door going to affect this? >> Well, you if you add a front door and you have to add a ramp to obviously it's

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got to be at least 36 in. Some front doors are larger just because they have either trans door or something on the side, which is probably a good idea for someone handicap so you can see who's at the door. Uh, but it would come in here and you have an entryway. I mean, it would cut down on some of the space,

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maybe slide the table a little bit and couch and things like that. But it would definitely crowd things >> because one of the things we generally do is if we were to approve this, we would say per your current plans

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and technically we don't care about what's on the inside. Where you put your inside walls is up, you know, entirely up to you. Uh, but we would I'm I'm just trying to figure out how again if we were to approve this

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>> I think >> I can't approve it with these plans because it doesn't show a second door and the and the town requires you to have two egress points, >> right? >> Obviously and I don't have a picture. I don't think I have a picture of like a little render of what it would look

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like. There is a front door here. You just left it out. But originally on the on the original one, I think you remember there was there was a front door. There was a front door. There was a porch. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So I suppose you could we could

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just you could just amend your drawing or whatever to to show that there is there is going to be a second door >> because >> if it if it's if we were >> again, you know, I I really don't care where you put your kitchen table and the

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chairs and where the bedrooms are. That's That's not We're worried about square footage, but uh but if we were to approve the plans and it went to Ralph, he and and you put a front door in, he would come back and say, "It doesn't conform to the plans that we approved."

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>> Understood. I mean, could you approve just dimensional or where? >> I suppose we could. And attorney, >> like I said, I don't pretend to be an architect and >> we could just you could just uh line them in. I think the drawing resubmit it

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to say there's going to be a door here. >> I I I think you could in and the motion would be move to accept his plan and and grant the permit pursuant to the plan >> the footprint >> with Yeah. But with the addition >> with the addition of a front door >> of a door or let's say a second means of

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egress that does not increase the gross floor area. >> Right. Okay. Okay. So we put it in wording. Do you think you might have put it over? Do you think it's over here? Because that's where there's a wall here so you can swing the door open. >> This one here. You mean >> on the other side of the kitchen? In the kitchen. I would think that's where the door might have. You might have

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>> This is the dimension line I think that you're looking at. >> No, no, no, no. But in the kitchen from the egress um >> from the washer dryer area >> on which side of the table? >> Yeah, cuz it looks like the fact that this wall is here. It almost looks like

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a door was meant to go here. So, it would swing out this way. >> We could put it there. I mean, >> you would have to >> there still I mean they're close to each other, but there's you know you know >> it's an outside door. Yeah, it's an outside door. >> Yeah, exactly. >> No, I I don't I again that's

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>> that's a measurement line. You could also just put a slider. >> It would also it would also make >> you took the porch away because that the porch isn't included, right? >> That it's not included. >> So, we were just trying to cut down on there was concerned about the size of the house and the footprint and everything. We were trying to cut down.

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It's an idea, good idea to have a portion of the handicap ramp, snow, ice, whatever. Uh would be a problem. >> Yeah. >> So, so, you know, where you put your front door is is somewhat going to be based on how you built didn't develop the ramp, >> right?

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>> And that depends on the land. >> The land where we're putting this and this is one of the reasons we're putting it. It's fairly flat. >> It's fairly flat in that area. >> Yeah. And that's one of the reasons it makes it ideal for, you know, accessibility. This would be this is quite steep and would be borderline

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ridiculous. But this is uh quite flat and it would be easy to manipulate. Probably even a handicap rack comes out touches the driveway here. So we keep parked on the driveway. You could get out and go. >> I know we talked about before this this

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going to be on a slab. >> I think we're doing a crawl space, >> right? Basement counts. Basement counts as square footage. >> Do a crawl space. If you do a basement according to state law, it counts as count. >> Well, a basement under the mass that

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will be not counted. So, it sounds like 7 ft was the >> So, it would be under 7 ft. >> So, it' be cross >> because one of the other utility room >> you got to have a hot water heater, a furnace, and >> Yeah. Yeah. >> etc., etc.

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>> Yeah. So, you're going to >> put the utilities. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, basement. We can put the utilities down in the basement, you know, there's no light down there >> when we >> as long as you make sure it's not livable space. >> We dealt with that in the past on this

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board. >> Prior to the law, >> we excluded utility, you know, anything related to that? >> Not on a new build though. >> We never approved the new build with the basement. It was only on existing

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structures that we were modifying. We sort of looked the other way. >> Come to mind. >> Yeah. But those condos had nothing to do with ADU. >> No, but I mean as far as the space it was >> Oh, yeah. With with violations.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> As we all know. >> Yeah. But yeah, I mean that's not a problem also to you know again it's just one of the things we were trying to illustrate the difficulty of having handicap usability not just

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accessibility in a building of you know 900 ft would be >> roughly how far away would this structure be from neighboring u uh structures houses

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>> structures. Uh >> I know there's a very steep drop off. >> So it's 155 ft between the structure and this property line here. >> Where's um uh there's a street there. Primro is here. These are lots on

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Primrose Lane, >> right? So that drops >> 155 ft from Primrose Lane pretty much. >> But if you were if you were in a house, >> one of those houses, you can't even see that up on the top. There's a BM up there that's probably 6 to8 ft high. >> Right.

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>> So, my thought is that how about in the other directions? >> Uh this way. >> There 77 ft to the house that's over here on that front on re road. >> Okay. Uh so what I'm getting at is I don't see there where there's any major

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um disadvantage to any of those neighboring houses. uh uh whether we make this 1,400 square feet or or uh 5,000 square feet. >> Well, I think that I I think the I think some of the people in the the group that

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I think some of the neighbors may have Yeah. speak. >> Yeah. But I'm what I'm saying what I would say is that the if we allow the,200 square feet is nothing more is I don't think it's that much significant over the 900 ft they could have done as a matter of right.

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>> Right. And if we went subdivision route, basically we could put a 2500 foot house here. It would be much bigger. >> And you could also put a bigger garage. >> No, no impact. Uh so uh so I I don't

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think it's a big deal myself. So we open it up to the audience. I believe there are some eyes saying I want to say something. Anybody want to come up to the the mic and your name and

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address? Paul Christristen, 14 Prims Lane, Westport. I'm glad that they downsized it because we do live at the bottom of the hill on our property and we look up right now. we can see his house and the quansa hut that he put on the edge of

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the property which it is what it is at that point. I'm glad he's willing to downsize. I'm curious why such a big garage also for the ADU. The garage on the original print plan was twice the size of the house just about if you look

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at the old notes. Why is that so big? We actually there's uh that's >> that doesn't come under the ADU >> okay bylaw. They can they can build >> okay >> a garage whatever size >> but I but I think the reason they need

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that they wanted it so big is was they was able to be able to hold hold a handicap accessessible van >> it's bigger than the house. >> Yeah. >> So why is it bigger than the house if it's a hold a handicap vehicle? >> Yeah. And and the ramp to get >> still bigger than the house.

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is longer than the house. That's what I'm asking. >> Right. >> Yeah. I mean, if they applicants want to comment, they can. >> Attorney Blake, I mean, we don't if the House meets 900 or if we allow

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them, let me do we really have any >> no >> any authorization to scale to to to minimize a garage? Not I I can't see anything under the ADU law. >> No, but you're but he's he's not here to

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build this by right because it is bigger. So that you do have some authority issuing the permit. >> So we could >> if you just want put want put a garage there. >> We couldn't stop him.

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>> I mean he's not a dwelling unit. It's just a >> He could put a 4,000 foot garage there as long as it meets all the setbacks. >> Probably. >> Well, I'm big faces, but >> Well, I mean, >> you could put a barn >> and it could meet all the setbacks. This is a giant giant land.

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>> You could have a You're going to put a big barn on it, right? I mean, >> um I think there's another gentleman >> Sean, you want to address that? >> Well, I think we addressed it previously. You know, it makes it convenient for a handicap van and any

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accessory and I mean accessory lawn mower or something that maybe somebody who's taking care of the property could use, >> right? And you need you need a ramp in goes into the garage, right? >> Yeah. Big and the ramp, you know, because it's one and 12. It's only going to be two steps. So, the ramp isn't going to be huge for, you know, 10 12

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feet long probably. >> But I think we talked about last time the amount of room. I mean, I think Kevin brought it up last time. the amount of it's a significant amount of room around the >> it's very surprising how long the ramp has to be. I think it has >> and and the same >> drop one inch every foot

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>> and with this handicap van too because you want to have it >> have to make a >> and the ramp ramp can't go directly it can't go all the way to the van. >> Yeah. >> So you need to have the ramp land and then have space and then have the vehicle, >> right?

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>> The ramps are very deceptive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. not deceptive, but they're surpris they'll be surprisingly long to get a little bit of um you figure if you if you by code were two steps up from the garage slab up to the house which is

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about 18 in you're talking about you know 1 in and 12 so you're talking about 18 foot ra >> maybe it's 2 in >> takes up half the garage >> sometimes you have to have platforms >> well you're supposed to have a 4ft uh turn uh platform at the top for turning

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radius Yeah. >> So, if you have it parallel, you have to have a have a 4ft platform to get in the door. >> And so, I think last time we said the garage was going to be heated. >> And maybe Yeah, maybe.

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>> But, >> I think they were going to install a rad floor, but they weren't sure they were actually going to use it. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> but I don't think the garage matters. Well, that if it's heated, it does. >> No, maybe not. I don't think >> the garage does not. >> We can't be talking back and forth. If

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you want to come up, I'm Ron. I own a property with my son. Uh the garage does not matter. I don't know why everybody's bringing up the garage. The garage is you can anybody I can build a garage on that property right now, right? >> As big as I want and I don't even have to come here. I can go right to Ralph. >> So, the garage shouldn't even come to

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play into this conversation. We're trying to build an ADU and I downsize it as much as I can. I can't downsize it anymore. Honest. >> We were just We were We were just asking question, >> but I get a lot of chatter about a garage, you know, and I don't like that. >> I And and I agree that the garage needs

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to be the size it needs to be. Okay. Because because not only you going to probably have a handicap >> and you got other vehicles. We we all drive vehicles, >> but you probably going to have a second car in there because you're not going to use the van all the time because with the gas >> and I got equipment to take care of the property and everything else. So, but I

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I shouldn't be standing here telling you why I have to have a big garage. It has nothing to do with the >> I wasn't asking you that. I was asking if it was going to be heated or not. >> No, it's all works really better if we all stay civil. >> Yeah. No, I am. I'm trying to, but I'm just trying to get some feedback. >> Trying to get a little bit. I never even

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met these people. Okay. I don't even know who they are. I'm the probably the best neighbor you can actually live next to. Okay. But you know something? It's just when people start picking on different things, it doesn't it doesn't come into play. But there's a lot less people here than there were the first time. So I think that >> I agree

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>> that is to your favor, sir. >> Hi, my name's Clifford Brown. I live at 10 Primos Lane. And as far as handicapped, I'm handicapped. I was I had I live in the smallest house in the neighborhood. I lived in a handicap with a wheelchair. I

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was in a wheelchair for three years. Couldn't walk. Had no hip, broke my neck, my back, everything. And you know, I can see the feelings there, but it's kind of just a lot to me. You know, I live in like maybe a thousand square foot house. I had no problem with a wheelchair in there. I had my nephew put

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a ramp up in the back and that's what I used. >> Well, this is 1,200 and there's going to be three people there. So, >> yeah, I know, but it's not that much bigger. >> It was me and my mother in the house. >> Yeah, but it's not it's not that much bigger. >> Yeah. Well, >> the last time it was I agree. >> Well, I just wanted to put that out there, you know.

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Hello, my name is John Calian and so I'm on 118 Reed Road. So I am I guess you say eastern facing property to uh the property in question. >> So just to uh uh been at Reed Road now

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for 38 years. If you know much about Reed Road, you know it's it's a very loud road, you know. Sometimes it's not the best experience. But one of the things I really like about living on we were the neighbors. You know, we're all very respectful of one another. Everyone's pretty quiet. And so when

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this property came available, uh, one of the things that my wife and I said was, "Hey, listen. You get bad neighbors in here and there's some neighbors down the street. The police are there all the time." He said, "If that happens, we'll even. And we love it here." And so, um, fortunately, I will tell you, you know,

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uh, Adam, Ronnie, they they they've come in, they've been great neighbors. They've been great stewards of that property. You know, he has the same problems I do. You know, so we've had some big pine trees there and they've all and a lot of them have been diseased. And so, he took them down. You know, they're very dangerous. You know,

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you get the limbs falling down in a big storm. But what he didn't do, he didn't go and and just clear everything out and put down grass and and manicured lawns. What he do is he kept it natural, you know. And so what it does is it gives this property the opportunity to

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regenerate. And so what does that have to do with an ADU unit? So what I'm trying to just tell you is they've been here for what, three or four years? >> Three years. >> Three years. And during those three years, they've been good neighbors. They've tried to do the right thing.

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They want to do the right thing. To me, in my opinion, they have a legal right to put this unit there. They want to do the right thing for their child, and rightly so. But I also think that they want to do the right thing for their neighbors. And so, I want to support him on that. So, that's why I'm here today.

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Well, I drove up there and as you know, I walked around the property a little bit and then I turned around and I drove primrose and I looked up the hill and

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I couldn't see any point of of where it would that this ADU would be detrimental to the neighborhood whatsoever. I will say having lived in California with mudslides,

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that hill bothers me. But I I didn't buy a house. I would never buy a house at the bottom of that hill. And I don't know who's responsible for all that, but um I walked around it. It's down from the the

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main house. Um, and as I was looking up, I don't know if you'll be able to see the ADU from Primrose Lane. I could be wrong because it's it's further away from the

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edge. And so I don't see any detriment whatsoever. And I'd like and as already expressed, I think it should be bigger than this. >> I agree. >> It should be for three people in in 12200 square ft.

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It's tough. It's going to be tight. >> Is there another uh the house is actually that we're not even seeing on this map. Is that right? >> Correct. That's on the top top. >> And so that's going to be connected to it and how

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>> Oh, it's totally >> Oh, okay. >> This is a land man. >> Okay. Okay. >> Right. Okay. I thought it was connected. That's pretty high up on the hill up there. >> Hi, Rebecca Kristen. I'm at 14 Per Mos

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Lane and I'm not saying that they haven't been good neighbors. We have never met them. That's the truth. But from our perspective, and you drove down, but you also drove down when there's leaves on the trees. So two

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months ago, 3 months ago, we started noticing erosion on the back of that hill. Now, our families lived there a long time. I know that they took down a lot of trees to put up whatever they did. And granted, some of them, yes, had fallen. They need to come down. However,

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I have concerns about if they take down more trees, the stability of the land because all of that root system holds up. Granted, it was a sand pit when that development was built in the late 60s, early 70s. It was a sand pit. it was a gravel pit. So over the years we've

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planted on that hill so that it would be stable. So our property and the property um down from us which is Mr. Carrero um owns that property. He's done a lot of maintenance on that hill as well. So our

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concern with a bigger property I'm glad to see that this is more in line with fitting with the neighborhood. Um, our concern would be, you know, my husband mentioned the garage, the heated garage, because it could be made into living space that then becomes more than what

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was approved. Also, you know, to come in with plans that aren't complete, don't have two points of egress. Like, if we were to do an addition, we just did an addition. We we renovated our house. My plans had to have every door, every window, every point of egress, the measurements of everything in order for

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it to even me to even be able to get the permits I need. They'll had to do that to get the permit, >> right? But my concern was that you said, you know, we'll approve it conditionally based on, you know, we had to have all of our trucks in a row. >> We don't approve the building per we

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approve the building department to issue a building permit and that mean and they then they have to comply with all the rules of the of >> the window. I mean our our concerns are and you know to say that you can't see from if you drive down Primrose land at night when the lights are on we can see

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the house on the hill the existing dwelling because there's been so many trees that have been taken down in the winter I can see all their lights on at the top of >> you see the your neighbors to your left and your right >> I I do >> but you know it does concern me that

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more would come down and that it would it would be detrimental to my property because of the stability of the land, >> right? That's not for us to decide. That's actually going to be when they go to the building department and get a site plan. >> Like we can say they can do this,

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but there there might be other people down the road that they permits they're going to need to do to get this that's going to say you get you can't because of the concerns you have. I mean just just to kind of read your fears when the septic system plan is

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submitted for this there's a soil erosion control component of the plan control that other words they say you can disturb this much you have to take care of the storm water you have to do this that the other thing so that would be part of this application moving forward uh you can certainly address

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that when that happens up they have the curfew over the storm water drainage that >> that's an open meeting too, right? This >> that's an open meeting. >> Yeah. >> No, and that's where I think the this because because this this whole project could get could get stopped by not

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getting a septic system, >> right? Yeah. If it doesn't burn, I mean, >> right. I mean, >> very little chance that this is not going to burn. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Just gravel. It's going to burn too fast. Actually, it's more than >> I think, you know, raise those concerns. Then that's when they can address those

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concerns. Typically, you're not going to leave it like a desert when you're done with construction. You're going to have lawns and you're going to have landscaping and things along that line. So, that should alleviate some of that. And you know, like say how he's going to landscape it, but uh I think it's he's

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going to have to do some of that because you don't want especially with handicapped individual. >> Sean, I have a question for you. you um uh just mentioned open meeting at the board of health and obviously it is an open meeting

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>> but uh there's not no there's not a butter notification is that correct >> only variance requested and there wouldn't be a variance that would be needed to this >> right and that's why I want to be clear that these folks know that if they want to deal with anywhere the board of

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health they got to stay on top of it >> so the board of health will post the agenda and they have a list septic designs that come in front of them and we'll say 112 V road you know just to alleviate some fears. Title five requires us to design a threebedroom

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system even though it's only two bedrooms. They put a deep restriction on the AU. So it'll say threebedroom system. So I don't want to freak everybody out because that's the minimum size you're required to do on new construction. But it's only a two. They'll the board ask for a bedroom restriction on the structure of two

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bedrooms but you have to go to three bedrooms. When I went up there, it was before the leaves came out. I could see evidence of erosion, and that's why I expressed my concern earlier. I could see that down

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tree that's laying there. And when I walked around the property at the top of the hill where I envision the ADU going in, there's no impact by the ADU on erosion of the hill. Am I

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>> Well, I think everybody's So, the new house is not going up on the hill. >> It's okay. >> The the new house is going is going on a flat area of the property before you even get to the hill. >> So, it has nothing to do with trees, erosion, or any of that stuff.

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>> I agree. What? See, when I was talking about hill, you have Primrose Lane and you're up here. Your house is up here. That's the hill that the main house is on a hill, >> right? the ADU >> is down below >> down here >> level level

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>> and so I don't think from Primlo's rain laying you're gonna see because the house is up here ADU is down here it's flat >> y >> and I don't see an impact with the back of the hill >> no >> if anything

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>> it's not even going in their property it's going behind cliff's cliff's property that's where if I if I were to look out that way that's what I would see Cliff's property so It's on a level ground, >> right? And if anything, it would actually may affect the existing house because it's right. If you're start the

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same reason they're saying if you start digging up here, it's going to affect the houses down here. Well, if you know, it could actually unstabilize your house up here, too. I mean, it's >> we're so far away. We got four acres. >> Yeah. >> We're not talking side by side.

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>> Yeah. >> You know, this is probably here to the to to the highway department. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. It is a good distance >> and and up you know 40 ft 30 ft whatever it is >> any other

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>> um what are the actual uh what's what's the square footage you calculated for this >> 1200 basically you see the dimension here is 30 by40 >> and that doesn'tclude I didn't want to give about you start from the center of the between the wall of the garage. >> Oh yeah.

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>> So but 30 by 40 from the face of the outside garage wall to the outside face of the building itself is >> is 40 and it's 30 outside face outside face. >> Okay. >> Okay. So it's actually a little less go inside.

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>> Yeah. So it it seems that the dimensions that you presented here are that the minimum dimensions that you would need in order to uh fit the um the turning radius of the

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wheelchair. >> So you started with what would have been allowed and you simply expanded to accommodate what is recommended by the ADA. >> And that's what we asked and that's exactly what we asked you to do. Okay. Right. >> And that's why I just kind of supplied

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all that and and it doesn't account. There are some things >> you can you're allowed to have a side access sink >> not preferable as opposed to going underneath the sink, >> right? >> But as a big plumbing and issue, you know, this type and you're only allowed

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to have a 22 to 24 in depth on the counter. >> No, I just mean that the the increase in size is the minimum that that >> that's why I wanted to show these circles in all these locations where you would you know, you take for granted being able to turn around when you walk in your front door and that type of

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thing. You need a 16 >> circle. >> That would seem to be the most reasonable solution. >> Yeah. >> Sean, just I'm a visual person. What size is this room? >> This room uh it's probably 25 by 30.

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>> So 750 ft. >> I guess by 30. So 30 by 40 it's about 25. >> It's about 5 ft wider. >> Mhm. >> And 10 ft longer.

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>> It's 550 more feet. >> Yeah. >> But this room has no walls in it. >> Yeah. Right. No, no, no. I I mean just look at this room, right? I just wanted to see how much bigger. Yeah. No, I mean

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you did exactly what we asked you to do last time was because you were saying that you needed all this space because and we said well prove it and you could have you could have done this and use the other example too and put in your little circles but you did you squeezed

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it as much as you possibly could. So, >> um, >> I give credit to Mr. He was one who, you know, we came, he sat down and came up with a plan and I had to manipulate the plan to make it work for these for the ADA requirements.

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>> It's a problem all the time requirements understand how difficult it is to meet some requirements. Just new builds, it's easy rebuilds and stuff. >> Yeah. >> As far as the front door, it was

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original. It just didn't get carried over. There is a front door. Ralph would never give me the >> No, you wouldn't get permanent now. >> Yeah. So, we could live in the place without it. So, >> no. Um, we just got to make sure that >> to close.

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>> Um, yeah. If any we can have a motion to close the hearing. >> I'll make a motion close. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? I >> I >> Kevin I

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>> Oh, I'm I'm not a voting member. Yes, you are. >> Oh, I am. >> No, you're not. >> Not for Well, for the >> for the first one, >> not for this one. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. You're right. >> Who's in first? >> There was the other one. You weren't. Yes, you were. >> Yes. All right.

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>> Okay. You want to tell me what that means? That means that we've heard all your comments and we appreciate them and now we're we're going to talk amongst ourselves obviously in front of you but um and then we'll vote.

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>> Yeah. I I think you know the rather than I'm looking at at at the plans and I'm I'm so going through in my mind how to how to best phrase this if we were to approve this and I think the best way to do this

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is just say if we were to approve this we would say something like you can build an ADU with a square footage of no more than 12,200 square foot because >> rather than saying rather than identifying the plan. Uh, Attorney

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Blake, you've >> um, if it were me, I would prefer to identify the plan because it shows where it is. >> Yeah. >> Well, no. Uh, no. I mean, >> you mean the floor, >> the actual floor plan? >> Yeah. The layout. >> The the, you know, where it is is

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something different. But >> how about in substantially the same form as presented on the plans? >> Yes. See, we usually don't get involved in the inside. >> No, but you do the the exterior and that's >> that's why he said as long as you keep it, 1200 square foot.

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>> Well, >> you could potentially refer to the location on the >> Oh, we could refer to the we could refer to the other plan instead of this plan. >> Yeah, it could be 1,200. The other option is to say, you know, to say in to to cite the plan with with modific

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and and say uh uh that it must include a a second access point and if there is a seller, it has to be such that it cannot be livable space. >> Yeah. Well, we >> you can reasonably can do >> just just verbally. >> Okay. >> And we could I mean, if you look at this plan, it does say 1,200 square feet,

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right? So I mean it does sort of do all that as well if we you know. >> Okay. I think you know >> I I had a a question. Is there any type of state law or a bylaws about ADUs and attached garages? >> Is that something or is that totally

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different just the ADU you can put a garage on? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They don't. So by by Yeah. my right, they could have put a 900 square foot >> ADU and a

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>> 3,000 foot garage. >> Yeah, I was just curious. I >> It doesn't It doesn't count toward the AD. >> It doesn't count toward the AD, right? >> No, I just >> We're so we're really concerned about the size of the ADU. Uh, and then I think attorney Blake did say that

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because it is a special permit, we could, if we so desired, perhaps put some restrictions on the garage, but that could in my mind might get us in a little trouble with the state. >> So, so I I do want to just mention

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something. um your bylaw says that this you know a special permit um could be issued as it's I forget what is outlined in in your zoning bylaws and the ADU portion of your bylaw says the

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zoning board of appeals may may allow may grant reasonable and necessary accommodations relative to accessory dwelling units for persons with disabilities and limited mobility. So I I think that fairly read and I think you guys are interpreting this as saying you

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can do this through a special permit >> and I I I I think you can do that versus a variance. >> Um variance would be shape, size and topography and you know frankly there's a >> a topographical issue with at least

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having it there. But I I I I think it in the I'm I'm battling it back and forth. You know what is it? Is it simply a finding that and you're you're granting a reasonable and necessary accommodation or is it a special permit? I I I think you're probably safe saying it's a special permit.

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>> Yeah. I mean, this has always been a special permit. >> Has it has it? Have you ever done this? >> No. I mean, when before the state law, this always was a special permit. >> Yeah. For the entire ADU. And I'm just saying now, >> so it looks like you have in here a a

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special permit requirement only to enlarge it. for for for the second one. >> Yeah. Or the second one. But >> bylaw that you just read uh u about the reasonleness and so forth. Uh is that

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>> our current bylaw after the town meeting? >> We didn't we didn't take that part out >> cuz I thought they the Mike sent this over to us. >> Marina sent this over to me >> two weeks ago >> and it came from your planner, >> right? So I'm assuming that yeah this is

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>> and this was done this was done two not this meeting the meeting last minute no we >> hasn't changed this year >> we only changed the language regarding the size restrictions we didn't ch change the we we we were allowed to keep in what we wanted to because it was

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being generous >> that's interesting >> yeah that's a new one >> that's the new >> No but I we were given The impression at town meeting was that this >> this new state law just took over our

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previous ADU. >> It did >> things. Uh in other words, took it over and got rid of it. The the the town one. >> It it did not get rid of it. You guys you you clearly put a new one in,

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>> but it has to conform. There were some things in the state law that allowed you to make, for example, a second ADU could be required by special permit. And I I I frankly think this reasonable accommodation

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um is is a similar thing where you could have the ability to to make the reasonable accommodation. I I I sometime I'm kind of grappling in my mind as to whether or not it needs your bylaw says it needs approval by you. >> Right.

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>> Right. A reasonable accommodation is often times something that that is that is given pursuant to maybe the uh architectural review board regulations. But here your bylaw says you can do this. So, I think it is a special permit

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or or or finding that this this is a reasonable accommodation for a handicap and allowing it to get bigger. Um, but at the end of the day, um, if it's a special permit, then we're not

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constrained by the size. Now, which one uh the new state law or our previous town bylaw and current from what you're saying uh restricted it to one uh one ADU pero

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>> that was by right and then after by right they would have if they wanted if somebody wanted to put a second one they would have to come >> which bylaw >> the state bylaws >> the state bylaw is the one saying that >> our bylaw as well >> yeah our bylaw as well >> it's says here, "There shall be no no

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more than one accessory dwelling unit on one lot >> in the state law." >> Nope. In your by law, >> but doesn't right. >> But doesn't Well, I'm not hearing by right. >> Yes, it does because he didn't he didn't read the whole par. >> It is by right. Yes. I mean, you have to

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that you have to be compliant with the state law. >> What does the new state law say about that? Because it seems to me that state law specifically indicated that you could come in for two or three or >> No, it didn't. It said one accessory dwelling. This is what ours say. One

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accessory dwelling unit shall be allowed by right. So, i.e. doesn't have to come to us. >> All by law of the state. >> Ours. >> Okay. I want to know the state >> by right. This is mirroring what the state says. providing the following criteria are met and there's there's

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must conform to height and setback requirements maintain the character of the neighborhood. Uh there should be no more than one accessory dwelling unit on the lot. The state law says that too. And it says if a town wants to have

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more, we can require a special if somebody wants to come to us and ask for two because they've got a 10acre property and they want to make a little camp for their family. They have to the state law says we are allowed to require a special permit for that instance.

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>> Okay. Uh would that constitute a contradiction between our town bylaw and our state bylaw? A state law? >> No, because we're saying it's not we're saying that the state law only requires one by right.

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After that, it's up to the town to decide. >> Yeah, >> I read that law. I read that >> the state law allows you to make additional uh accessory dwelling units by special permit. I'm trying to get it. Um

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>> and they specifically also let the town decide about rentals >> and then >> the state law also doesn't require that anybody any property owner lived in either of the residences. >> That's correct. But our town bylaw still does.

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>> No, we can't. So, we removed that part of us. >> That's what I'm saying. We removed certain things, >> but we were allowed, we were able to keep stuff that we felt we wanted to keep because it was not more restrictive than the state law.

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>> Says the state law says for more than one accessory dwelling unit, there shall be a special permit for the use of land or structures for the accessory dwelling unit. >> Right. >> So, um it's by special permit. the second one it's only you could only have

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one by right by right I mean there I think they were trying to re reach a balance there that they wanted to increase housing and and kind of take the special permit requirement of any accessory dwelling unit out of your the local control but at the same time they

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didn't want to get a situation where you essentially have a you know condominium complex on your property >> right yeah >> I think that >> without your input >> I Guess one thing we should do since this one is being done by a special permit and not by right, would you want

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to argue that they have the right to build a 900 foot ADU on this property? >> I don't think so. Because I I think what you're doing is you're simply allowing this special this reasonable accommodation as you can under your bylaw. I think this counts as the

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>> first ADU and they would have to come back to us for others. Okay. >> No, I think it is. >> Just want to >> No, it makes sense. I don't think they're going to do it, but I just, you know, >> put it in. >> I mean, the clear object uh objective of of this state law is just to provide

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more housing. Correct. >> Nothing to do with handicapped or anything, right? >> Just just we want more housing. >> So, if you can get a developer and they want to get two uh ADUs or three ADUs or whatever, they would go to their local board and and get that permission.

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>> Yep. Yep. and the state would be very happy about it. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Solar and housing, that's what they're in the business of providing. >> Yeah. again. I mean, I think there's I get I I also think with given the what

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was it the uh whatever law that was that was passed it was it told me about the you know the affordable housing right trust or something like I think that would give it would have given us the leeway to allow them to subdivide it too because I think this that the state

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would would would not would not have upheld the uh restriction of this being not developable. Um, >> we don't I guess we don't have to go there. >> We don't have to go there, but I would I you know, again, I was still further. >> Could they still subdivide it after

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this? >> No, because the restriction. >> Okay. >> So, Roger, you want to make >> I'm going to make a motion. Uh, I'll start on my uh make a motion to approve a special permit to construct an accessory dwellment of 1,200 square ft for a

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handicapped individual with an attached oversized garage per the provided drawings with the following uh additions. A, it must include a second egress. And two, if a seller is

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is If there is a seller, it must be such that it is not included as livable space. Is that >> it's less than seven? >> I no I I think it's 68 the building >> whatever it is if I just say a liveable space that livable space as defined in the building code

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>> as as defined by the building code. Yep. >> Now, the verbiage you just did, did did it reference the u the the uh locus of the uh building on the property as far as as presented in the plan? >> Yeah, that's what I said as as provided

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by the plans >> with the following changes in that the second. >> I I I remember her having to look at the previous plan, not the current plan for that. Well, the plans >> well we had to locate >> the plans the plans dated 52826.

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>> The original date is 52826 which is the new location. >> Yeah. >> Any discussion on the proposed >> motion? No. >> Ready to vote? Anybody have anything

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else to say? Second. >> Oh yeah. Second. Second. >> Okay. >> Call for a vote. >> Call for a vote. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> I.

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>> Thank you very much. >> 20 days. >> Yes. The special casual permit granted. >> 20 days. >> Oh yes. In the 20 days. There's a 20-day. Don't do anything for 20 days because it can be a field. Um,

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but I'm sure it's going to take you 20 days to finalize the uh plan for the building permit anyway. >> Okay. Where's the factory? >> Yeah. >> Oh my books that you might be interested in knowing available

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>> where the AP >> Oh, yeah. Oh, look at that. >> All All about a >> Where'd you get that from? They send it to you. A >> I didn't pick it up. >> Perfect. >> I went I went to a building show. >> They are all the rage now, right? A lot

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of people are doing it. So, >> well, and this is from a national perspective. >> I'm living my water. >> All right. So, thank you. >> You're good. All right. Thank you for everything. >> Very helpful. >> Sorry if I got loud.

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>> Yeah. No, I mean it's it's kind of a no-brainer at this point. >> I was impressed that they did what we asked them to do. >> Like Yeah. All right. Thank you. >> They don't. >> Always. And hopefully I'll be out again

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before the summer's over. But if I'm not, wish you all a wonderful summer. >> We don't have anything else going on at the moment. So you you don't want to come back to magic place in the summer. No, I actually do. I don't I'm being I enjoy coming out here seeing you guys. >> Seriously,

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>> a nice community and >> um but in any event, if I don't, have a wonderful summer. >> Yeah. Take care. >> You have. >> All right. So, we got two uh meeting minutes to approve the April 15th and the April 23rd.

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Do we have a motion to accept the minutes of April 15, 2026? Make a motion. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> And now the April 23rd, 2026

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minutes. Do we have a >> I'll make a motion for grant. >> I'll second. >> Approve. >> Approve. Okay. >> And I'll second it. Okay. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> Maria wants to talk about something. >> Um, and Marie, this is for Roger, but

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let's cross my name out. press his name out. Put mine on. >> Yeah. I didn't know he was going to do that. >> You got to tell her. >> I'll light you up. >> Um I just have a question. If anybody has an objection to starting our

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meetings at 6 p.m. instead of 6:30, >> I would love it. >> That would be perfectly fine. >> But that extra half hour for me personally makes a big difference >> to start them at 6 instead of 6:30. Right. So, how does that give you extra time?

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>> It gives me Oh, at night time. Yeah. >> Afterwards. Okay. Yes. >> After everybody leaves, I have some administrative to do. >> Oh, for sure. >> Or I leave to go home. >> So, >> Oh, >> an extra hour half hour. >> Okay. >> Sounds good to me. >> Thank you. >> And sometimes that includes driving me

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home. I leave my lights on. >> I just sure that there was personal issues that would have >> Look at this pen. I love this pen. >> We We used to do six and then we changed it to 630. >> Oh, nice. You seen this one? >> Oh, it's always been 6:30 for me.

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>> Yeah, it's always been It's always been 6:30. Okay. >> All the other All the other meetings start at six, don't they? What we just said? >> Thank you. Okay. >> So, from now on, we'll do six. >> Fine with me. >> Do we have anything on the calendar?

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>> Yeah, it could be it could be changed it, right? >> Which is good. Yeah, I was going to say cuz in the next three weeks yours >> good. >> Are we uh >> did a good job. >> Are we off the clock? >> You did a good job today. >> Okay. >> You did good.

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>> I'm going to get her one of these for the only comment is >> you should keep >> you should describe >> because it goes into other things. >> Keep everybody informed on how the process works because all the people in the in the audience have no idea what's going on. >> Neither do I.

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>> But no, you did you did good. I think we need a motion to motion because I can't do that. >> Can't do that. Excuse me. >> So, we have a motion and it's >> We have a second. >> All in favor say I.

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>> I. Thank you, Bal.