Governor is going to be >> okay. Um, it's 6:30 on October 16th. I'm going to start the zoning board of appeals off with the pledge of allegiance. I >> pledge allegiance >> to the flag of the United States of
America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. accordance with master chapter 38 section 20F. This meeting is being recorded.
>> Yeah. First hearing tonight is Yeah, there it is. Administrative appeal of John Sylvia Jr., Linda Gada, and Kenneth Sylvia. Applicants and trustees of Joyce B.
Sylvia revokable trust from the determination by the zoning enforcements officer that commercial activities are being conducted on site in a residential agriculture district in violation zoning of zoning by law section 5. property is
located at 1017 Sodom Road for Mass is shown on Cesus map 78 lot 10. Uh so the way I'm gonna the way we're going to run the hearing is I'm going to have the petitioner come up provide whatever information is pertinent to
this uh petition. Uh at that time the board will then question the petitioner. Once the board has completed uh uh questioning the uh the petitioner then I'll I'll open up to the general public. So uh whoever is representing
uh that this appeal can come up and sit here and whenever you talk just um identify uh the name and address and voting on uh voting on this will uh and this is a majority vote. Oh, no.
This is a a super majority. You need this is a four. You need four uh uh affirmative votes and it will be Jerry Cino, Constance Gee, myself, Roger Manard, uh George Stellis, and Cynthia Kazekowitz.
>> All right. >> So, name and address and then >> John Sylvia Jr. 991 Sodom Road. So the property has been in the family for a hundred years at least and both of our parents passed away recently. We got the
trust. So some of these activities that are there have been going on for 15 to 20 years. There's never been a complaint, never nothing. I get that some of the activities aren't right. But we sold 100 acres to the Westport Land
Trust and the rest is going into APR to keep it farming. We're trying to keep Westport the way it is and then we just like harassed to get out instantly. We already know again out in June. And when somebody comes to me and says this
activity has to leave, this activity has to leave, but that one can stay. >> To me, that's wrong. >> I don't care if they're all wrong across the board. If one has to leave, they all have to leave. >> I'll read to you the letter from for those who who don't know, you know, what the issue here.
>> I think 99 people are from me. Soua the uh zoning enforcement officer. Yeah. >> Subject cease and desist order zoning violation 1017 Sodom Road Westport Mash. Yeah. >> To the trustees of Joyce P. Silvia Robocal Trust. During a recent observation while passing the property
located at 1017 Sodom Road, it was noted that business operations appear to be taking place within a residential agricultural zoned district. Upon further investigation, it was found that multiple commercial activities are incurring on site in violation of the Westport zoning bylaws. Specifically,
tanker trucks believed to be used for transport of pool water are being parked and possibly operated from the premises. Two separate businesses appear to be stockpiling, transferring commercial landscaping materials, including mulching gravel and utilizing the site as a transfer or storage station. These
activities constitute commercial uses not permitted within residential agricultural zones and are therefore in direct violation of section five of Westport zoning bylaws. You are hereby ordered to immediately cease all business operations and commercial use of the property. You are granted seven
days from receipt of this notice to bring property into compliance. Please advise that failure to comply may result in issuance of daily fines up to $300 a day as authorized under Massachusetts General Law Chapter 40 section 21D. each day the violation continues will be
considered a separate offense. Furthermore, please note that the stockpile of materials such as mulch and gravel also requires a so soil permit from Westport Conservation Commission. Failure to obtain the proper permit constitutes an additional violation subject to enforcement. And again, this
is from >> No, can you can you identify exactly what is going on on that property? So there was two water trucks there from CNR water which have moved now. Um serious businesses here today did have firewood there. He's had sand. He's had
gravel. We've had the loom. And then part of construction is in the back with the same operation. So when I met Ralph on the property, he basically said that one's got to go. That one's got to go. That one can stay. I know what the letter says, but when I'm told to me two
can stay, one can go, what? >> It's wrong. >> So, what businesses are actually uh uh being performed on that property? >> So, the water trucks were parking there cuz where they were, they don't have room to park. So, they were parking there. >> Are they continued? Are they going to be continually?
>> They're gone. So, as of June, >> are they ever coming back? >> No. >> So, June 1st of next year, everything has to stop because we sold it to the APR. So the land's going into APR and everything has to be again agricultural. So we were told everybody June 1 of next
year you have to leave anyways. So everybody had started moving stuff and then this came out. So it was like well these businesses have been here for 17 18 years. You can't leave in seven days. When you got 10,000 20,000 yards of
gravel on site, you can't move it in seven days because where do you put it? >> You know what I mean? So, >> so what is your plan? >> As of when it goes into APR, it's going to be agricultural only with the state. >> No, I mean to get rid of all this
material that you >> 75% of it's already gone. >> 75. So, how long it going to take you to get rid of the rest of the 25%. >> I can't answer that question. It's not it's not my material, so I can't answer the question. Okay, >> Lenny, you'd have to answer that question. I'll skip
>> Len Potter from AJ Potter and Sons. We operate a lom compost um mixing comp complex there. We we don't uh crush rock there. We just mix the top soil, compost, different types of top soil to
end up with a decent product in the end. And then we take it to our pit here on Main Road, which is legal, and screen it there, process it there. And we probably got a lot of it's gone. Skip, how much you got left?
>> About 4,000 yards. >> Right. And we're uh >> we're slowly moving it out and we'll certainly be gone by June 1st. We have to be. It's not a problem. I offered when his father who was a good friend of
mine, I grew up with him and I and also more so with his mother and his father wanted to give us a place to work and he get some money for rent to pay his taxes and we went there. But John was not I asked about getting a permit. He he was
not in favor of that at all. He said I don't see a problem with it's my farm and I can do what I want and that's that's a fact. And so therefore, we never got the permit. You know, your father. >> Yeah. >> And this is this never been a a a legal operation. >> Never.
>> Okay. >> I offered to make it so, but he didn't want any part of it. And we needed the area to work in. He needed the money, so we did it. >> And uh we are pulling out little by little, but there's no manufacturing of anything there. It's just a stockpile
area. >> How um how quickly could you pull it out? probably within the next couple of months. Winter's coming. We're not going to The whole operation there is top soil, >> compost, top soil. So therefore, come
December, it's gone. That's about it. >> Attorney Blake, you want to >> Sure. I'm I'm happy to >> fight on this. Tony Blake. He represents the the >> I if you've ever been to these, I've
come to a fair amount of these. Anyways, um yeah, I'm Jeff Blake from uh town council from KP Law. Um >> I I think what you have here is, you know, frankly, I don't think anybody is contesting that they can legally do this. I think it's one of these we've been doing it for a long time, so we
ought to be able to still do it. Um the zoning enforcement officer gave them seven days. you in an appeal like this, you step into the shoes of the zoning enforcement officer. I think that you could based on the size of the operation and what's there say to yourselves 7
days is a little ambitious and I think you could give them more time to um to remove all of the lom all of the offending piles. It seems like >> essentially seesaw operations >> essentially seesaw all operations in
like 60 days. And as as this gentleman pointed out, most of it is lom. You typically don't lom and seed during December, January, February, March. I guess you would they would not be operating for April, May, and and well,
April and May of next year. But I I think if the board wanted to go that route, it could. >> Okay. >> Now, of course, you you could also enforce the the zoning enforcement officers um order and say seven days, >> right? But I do think that it's not
unreasonable for you to understand the the gravity of what's there and seven days is probably a pretty tall order to get rid of large piles of stuff. >> I'd like to ask uh which of the businesses
were okay and which were not. >> So CNL Water could had to go and serious business had to go. >> What's the second one? serious business. It's on >> Oh, okay. Seriously, their excavation >> they do excavate in firewood and the
other problem with firewood as far as I understand being chapter 61A firewood counts as a source of income for agriculture. So, if I want to stockpile 500 cords of firewood and sell it, I believe
>> Okay. No, I'd like to get back to that on 61A. >> I'd like to get back to that in a minute. >> Okay. What's the one that could be >> part of construction >> parters? >> Yes. Well, let me just stood up. >> Why? >> Okay. >> I can't answer that question because it wasn't my statement.
>> Okay. I I'd like to pursue this a little bit because this is not the first time this sort of thing has come up. >> And u uh what we have tended to do over time is u Dr. Ma Manny Alexander up the
road here. he he got involved with this. Uh we have determined that for a farming operation, it's legal to do things like some of what you said the the long as long as it
were from your own property, >> right? >> But you couldn't bring in stuff because then that becomes this manufacturing, right? >> To be honest with you, I think it's uh not very well defined. And um uh I I think that uh we as a
town, especially an agricultural town, we need to get a handle on this as to what is and isn't because you said for example that uh when the new people take over uh you you said APR, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh it has to be done uh with
agriculture, >> right? >> Okay. Uh but what's defined under that? Agriculture, >> right? >> Because maybe maybe the new people could still >> carry on this if they chose to, right? >> Uh and so forth. Um
>> and I I just think there's too many gray areas in this for us to make a a really good decision out of this. But I think whatever we do, it should be well thought out. uh and um and determine maybe working
with the a commission or whatever and uh and looking at the state laws in terms of what their definition of a agriculture is and so forth as you just said firewood for example yes it is but again I believe it's based on wood from
your own property right which in wood and cutting it up and so forth which I think is what's been probably >> now the wood that's yes thorn is all coming from my woods isn't 95% of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So anyway, um I think we uh we
need to we as a town >> and and a zoning board uh need to really look at this and make sure we're not jumping the gun uh and um and determining something >> right >> uh that is should be allowed is not
allowed. My own personal thought is if you're saying that next June this all changes and is that pretty much set in stone. >> You said signed the purchase and sales already. So >> yeah. >> Uh my own personal thought is that we
continue this hearing until next June. Uh so that uh it kind of makes things go away. Uh and the reason I think that is that in the meantime it would give us an
opportunity to look into this >> longer uh and do the right thing uh you know with the agricultural community u and u and then at the same time if if Lenny wants to slowly move his stuff up
then you know fine uh but I don't think there's a lot of that activity going on during the winter. As our attorney has indicated, those are pretty slow times. >> So, I don't think it would hurt anybody >> uh to do this. If these operations have
been there for 20 25 years, >> another uh four or five months isn't going to >> right >> mess things up in my opinion. Okay. Uh so, um so I think we need to find out what really is legal and what is not. I
I I I mean I understand the the manufacturing thing which is what our law says u if it's taking things from outside in but there are a lot of gray areas uh where maybe we're not too sure whether you're bringing something in uh
out and and and so forth. Um, uh, you take a carpenter who's building picnic benches at at, you know, on on his property and it's not zoned for that. No. >> Uh, well, he's bringing stuff in, isn't he? He's bringing lumber in to to make
it. So, >> you know, there's there's gray areas here. >> And I just think we need to do the right thing uh by um uh giving this time to settle out. And I I don't know if it's legal legal to continue it for that
length of time, but that's my thought is a way of getting around this uh taking pressure off you guys u and maybe at the same time giving some better direction to land conservation or the APR. Is land
conservation going to do agriculture also? >> Yeah, it's got to go in for agriculture. So, same same idea to give them some guidance, some decent guidance. >> That's that's my thought. >> Yeah. I want to know when it does go strictly well, it is agricultural, but what can we do there and what can we
not? I mean, I grew up on the farm. >> My father would have piles of dirt because he liked to plow up rocks. That was his thing. So, when you pick up a rock the size of this table, you got to fill it with something. >> Yeah. >> You don't go to Home Depot and buy 50 bags of dirt. You have a pile of dirt.
You fill the hole, you smooth it out, and you're back to a field. Because if you don't, and you leave a hole this big, every time it rains, it's going to wash away. I mean, there was always dirt, rocks, firewood >> forever. I mean, >> your your father was well well known, well liked in the agricultural
community. >> Yeah. And I mean, we're trying to keep it the way it is because Westport is already, you look at the other half of Sodom Road, it's to me is disgusting looking at all those houses, you know, trying to keep it farmland. And I mean, we've been approached by multiple
builders to sell it. We didn't go that way. >> You know, we take less money, we take and do it, keep it Westport. I mean, we grew up here and we plan on staying. Yeah. I'm just uh I I want to uh uh advise everybody exactly what an
administrative appeal is in I read you the letter from the zoning enforcement officer that was essentially cease and assist. >> What the what the uh petitioner is is essentially asking us to overturn that,
>> right? saying that overturn it by meaning that the that the zoning enforcement officer was not correct in interpreting our bylaws. That's all that we're here to determine because it's an administrative appeal. What you're saying is Ralph was the zoning
enforcement officer was wrong in how he interpreted the bylaw. That's what we're here for. Now, I have a question for attorney Blake. I mean I mean this is going to be a cut and dry whether or not Ralph was correct in in his interpretation. But even if we were
to say no, he interpreted it correctly, can we then amend it to increase to to do from a like you said from a 7-day period to a 30 or 60 or whatever period. >> I I I think you can in my opinion you
you you can do that. You step into the history. We we could as again I'm just throwing out as an alternative we could say no uh the zoning enforcement officer was correct meaning that we you know that we u that your petition is not granted. However,
>> we can amend his his cease and desist order to allow for a greater period of time. >> That is correct. That that is that's exactly what I Yes. >> Okay. So, it's kind of and we've never done this before. And again, I'm just saying I I you know, we're going to have
to vote on this and talk about it. >> Yeah. >> Uh we've never actually rejected a petition with with a with essentially a condition. >> Well, I I think essentially what you're doing is you are upholding Ralph's the
zoning enforcement officer's order in part >> in part. >> And you know, I don't know. Yeah, I guess it would be overturning it in part. In other words, saying that we feel as though >> it is against the bylaw to store large piles. It's a it's a it's essentially a
commercial use. It's it's not an agriculture. This is just for this property. Um but at the same time, we recognize that there's a significant amount of material there and that 7 days is probably not a reasonable amount of time for these guys to get rid of it. >> Okay.
>> I'd like to understand Ralph's logic. So he said the pool company and serious business who had firewood there were not appropriate yet you said that Potter's operation
>> was yeah why >> and if so serious business if I heard correctly at least the pool company has >> the pool company's left completely >> and serious business is on their way out >> he's about 85% gone
between you can't talk from the audience. >> So the only issue I think is with that is that we can give serious business some more time to get out and make it clear that nobody else can come back in.
And I think according to and I like to hear uh Ralph's logic of why >> Lenny's um Potter's operation was okay, then we don't have to do anything about that and you just got to get out by June
because they're selling the property. >> Mulch is not allowed. >> It's it's not allowed on the property. But what I've gotten when I talked with the pro potters, it was they had to replicate what they've been doing. They have to replicate it by by the time the
land is closed off. Other words, they they've done where they are in the back. >> All right. Just just one thing. Is any of the business there allowed? >> No. >> No. Okay. >> Period. >> All right. >> So why I'm sorry. So I still don't understand why the differentiation between
>> because he he had they the potters have to replicate stuff that they've done in the back. The back was worked on more that the soils were pulled out. So, he's got to replicate all that was done back then. >> What do you mean replicate? You mean >> put it back the way it was? Pretty much
the way it was. >> Why is that, Ralph? The soil board require that? >> I don't know who required that. >> Did they ever did they go to the soil board for their >> that? I don't know. I don't From what I understand that the conservation commission issued no soils permits for
that. >> What's going on there? >> If I can answer that question. When we initially made a contract with Mr. and Mrs. Sylvia, the agreement was we would strip the area off
pile the top soil >> and when we were done put it back. >> Okay. >> The reason is if you just left it top soil, >> it would just turn to mush, >> right? >> In the spring and the winter. >> So, not that we go in in the winter, but it would. So, we stripped it all off.
It's stockpiled and it's going to go right back in place. >> Okay. understand that process. Why do you strip off top soil, put it in a pile and then put it back? I mean, why >> not? >> Because the top soil in that area there
was probably somewhere around 12 14 in thick and if when it gets wet or freezes and thaws, it just turn there's no sub no substance to it. However, this the clay layer down below the subs soil below the top soil is much more firm.
And it compacts with traffic and all that. It compacts well. It's not not gravel, but it compacts well. The top soil itself is just there's no body to it. >> Right. Right. >> So that's the reason. >> So you couldn't drive trucks and stuff over it. >> No. >> No. >> So the clay underneath is what you
>> we're taking uh and >> No, we're working on the clay. We're not taking anything. >> You said that was the roadway, >> correct? So what what is it that you actually were taking out off the >> material that we bring in from other job sites that we buy? We buy compost, we
buy all kinds of top soil, some sandy, some clays. >> So you remove the lone just so you could work in that area. >> We removed the loan, the original lom, Mr. Sylvia's loan. Put that in a stock file, right? >> And we brought material in. That's how we process it. We mix the different
there's sandy loom there's clay looms there's dark looms there's light looms >> and we bring in compost from the kingisher pit and we mix that compost with the soil to get a consistency that we want. >> So it's similar to a gravel operation
like you have a bones but with different kind of product. >> Yeah it's all top soils top soils and compost. So I still don't understand why that would be okay and the other >> well the way I it's the way I understood I understood that they done something back then they had to replicate they had
to put it back together >> that part of >> but the business itself was not okay >> no what the stock piling was okay >> the stock in that case >> but bringing in material from other places was not okay >> right >> okay
>> I agree >> and obviously given the time of the year you're not going to be bringing any more material So, >> all we really need to do is allow serious business to get the remainder of their product out
and for you to re for you to put back >> restore your >> the loan. >> But there's no town no town required obligation. It's an agreement that we had with his parents. >> That's correct. >> And we we honor that. >> Yeah.
>> I had a question. So if you're given 60 days, you you can do everything. You can get what what you need off and you can replicate. >> We can we can in 60 >> the replicating is not really our problem. >> Getting the stuff off is our problem
because that's the business part of it. >> How he fixes the land is between him and the owner. Okay. >> We don't we we don't require that. We we would fix the we still have materials there that we're mixing and using, but it's it's it's greatly diminished now.
So, we're in a process of getting that out of there. >> But we we will spread the existing top soil, Mr. Sylvia's top soil starting in the spring. >> Probably sometime mid depends on how the spring goes. Midappril, early May, right?
>> Put it down, seed it down, done. >> Right. But you so but you can get what you need to do in 60 days to leave. Yep. >> Yeah. I say there's going to be a process of screening the material that
had brought which doesn't matter but the materials that we brought in would be >> that's right. Yeah. Because that's the business part of it. >> Correct. >> The rest of it is the land part of it. Yeah. >> And that's between the land owner and whatever. It's not that's not a zoning
issue. >> And serious business, you can be off of there in 60 days. >> Name and address. >> Chris Forier, the owner of Serious Business, 106 Barney Joy Road, South Dartmouth. So, I have already removed
most of the commercial aspects of the property. There is no longer aggregate, anything like that. Septic sand that's removed. There is firewood. Um there is compost and some wall stone which I do believe should fall under agriculture
and I am the owner of a farm and I do sell that agriculturally so I don't see why that sort of thing couldn't stay on the site. >> Was that on the farm to begin with? >> Quite a bit of the stone was on the farm. Um a lot of the compost is we do
bring in manure. We mix it. Um that sort of thing gets spread on my own farm. It does get sold compost. >> Um the wood chips in question which are being referred to as mulch goes to multiple farms around the community used for cow bedding. My own cow bedding um
goes to J Trip, Rich Sison, different farms around town in the muddy season. >> Okay. Just one one simple question. Can you in 60 days remove the stuff that was not on the property to begin with?
>> That would probably be a tall order. >> Um I guess so. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Well, the firewood that's there came from the property. >> If the right firewood came from the farm, then it can stay there. >> Right. The rocks can sell it because that is a farm related activity. >> Say 75% of the rocks came from the farm.
I mean, there's rocks everywhere. >> If that was on the farm, isn't that correct? If it's on the farm, that's part of the farm. Right. The the firewood, >> right? >> Bring firewood in, resell it. That's right. >> Yeah. See, that's part of what I'm saying. The definition is important.
What isn't isn't allowed on a farm. As he just said, the mulch goes to farms for farming and and so forth, >> but it wasn't originated on that farm. >> All I'm talking about is what originated a farm and what didn't. >> I understand that. But what I'm saying
is that um the uh it's still agricultural >> and and that's allowed just like uh the potters for years have been uh taking gravel out of the bone farm. Okay. It's
not farmed. They're they're taking gravel out right on the curve Hicksbridgeidge. Uh, and I I I'm not sure what the current status is, but I do remember quite quite a number of years ago, instead of doing little
pieces, they would do uh a couple of acres at a time, come to the zoning board, and we would give them the uh ability to to do do that. They also had to go to the soil board and and get
worked on that way. Um, but at some point, I don't know exactly when, maybe Lenny would know, but uh, we said, "Wait a minute. Why why do they got to keep coming in here for two acres and three acres and so forth?" And my recollection, just my memory, says that,
um, the last time they came, we gave them the ability to do seven acres. They were all defined where where this would be. We we gave him I think the ability to do seven acres without having to come back all the time. Uh and u since then
we don't see him. I say hello to him that's it but I haven't seen them as a zoning board. Uh so I don't know whether they've already done the seven acres or whatever. The same similar kind of thing. >> They're taking this stuff and they're they're making something out of it
that's for agriculture and >> but he's doing it actually in a commercial property. I I makes it different. >> What do you mean he's doing that in a commercial property? >> Commercial property on on Main Road. >> Yeah, I understand that. But I'm talking
about serious business with their mulch. What what we're calling mulch. Uh the uh you know, I guess they grind this stuff up or or whatever. Is not doing that on main road, right? >> No, no, no. That's >> No. Okay. So that's what I'm telling is
I'm just saying there are examples that I think are gray areas that we ought to >> I I don't see any gray areas here. >> I don't see this is an administrative appeal. There's no gray. It's either >> they ran a business or they aren't. They obviously ran a business. It's a matter
of how do we get them to comply with Ralph's order? >> And that's that's all we're here for. >> But I don't see it that way. I I I see it that um uh we we don't know is it a legal business for a farm in a farming
community to take logs and make them into mulch and so forth for agricultural farms. >> It's not a commercial operation. He's saying it's an agricultural operation. Grind up the wood, >> make wood chips to go to a farm. Is it a
commercial operation or is an agricultural comes from I could also say >> it all comes from your farm then it's an agricultural if it come if you're bringing it in and taking it somewhere and and doing something on your property that's the commercial part whatever you do on your own property as your father
always says you got a right to do >> but it's on your property >> and it comes from your property from your property >> like moving forward everybody takes all their dirt out >> and again we dig up a rock the size of a truck I can't bring dirt from anywhere
else you're telling me cuz it has to come from my thumb. >> No, you can bring it in. You can you can't sell it. >> You can bring it in. >> You were I I was just going to say that under your zoning bylaw, farm enterprise means a farming operation that is entitled protection under general law 48
section 3. 48 section 3 has been interpreted to say exactly what we're saying here tonight is that uh firewood is an agricultural use when you're logging your own land. >> Right. when you start bringing it in and
processing on your land and selling it. >> That's a business. >> No, your it yours says >> a farming enterprise is that chapter protected under 48 section 3. And I'm telling you, the state, there are cases out there that say the firewood cases
that say you can cut wood all day long on your own property, but if you're bringing it in and you're cutting it and you're splitting it and you're selling it, it's no longer a protected agricultural use. agriculture. He under your bylaw says,
bear with me. Agriculture and agricultural shall include farming in all of its branches and cultivation and tillage of soil, dairying, the production, cultivation, growing and harvesting of all agriculture, aquaculture, uh
flororiculture and horicultural commodities and growing and harvesting of forest products upon forest land. Right? That's your own land. The raising of livestock, including horses. The keeping of horses as a commercial enterprise. The keeping and raising of
poultry, swine, cattle, and other domesticated animals used for food purposes. Bees, furbearing animals, and any forestry or lumbering operations performed by a farmer who is hereby defined as one engaged in the agriculture or farming as herein
defined. I gave you what the farming uh enterprise was. as it was defined or on a farm as an incident to or in connection with such farming operations including preparations for market delivery to storage uh or to market or to carriers for
transportation to market. So again, I think that your definitions are consistent with how the state law is interpreted under 4A section 3. And that is that you you you you can't stockpile
from outside and sell just like this gentleman right here is bringing in uh lom, processing it, and selling it. I think that that that's clearly not agricultural. here. I I mean, if if you want to take him for his word, most of the wood is actually cut and processed
on the on the land. That's probably agricultural. >> Um the what else did he have? He had um firewood, compost, wall stone. I mean, again, I you know, if you're if you're buying chips,
bringing them on to the site, mixing them, and then selling them for cow betting or or whatever, >> that's commercial. >> Yeah. I think that it it's outside of the definition, >> logs, and you were making it, selling it. That's right.
>> That's right. Okay. Well, I think we're opening a can of worms here because in that case, uh, we better start deal with the uh all of the trades people which we definitely feel are allowed in in a uh
non uh uh commercial area. We do it all. >> What was that? Please >> trades trades people. >> That's what I'm talking about. >> That's different. That's different. >> Why is it different? >> Because our zoning law say it's different. >> No. Why is it different? >> I don't know why. I just know our zoning
laws take care of that. I'll >> I'll just use the example that I used earlier. There's better examples, but uh uh this fellow uh and we have a couple in town that we know of, at least three, uh who uh buy lumber, bring it to their
property, non non-commercial property, cut it up, put it together, and sell it to other people. >> Then that's the problem. >> Okay. So, we should close them all up. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Okay. then we better start doing it because we have not been doing that all
along. We allow that because it's it's a part of the trade. >> We allow a lot in our community because we don't >> enforce unless there's been a complaint, >> right? >> There's plenty. That's what we did with
the Airbnbs. We didn't they were all illegal >> until we had a complaint and then we had to deal with it. And now it's different because we've changed their zoning bylaws. >> So it's a matter I mean do I agree with
that? No. But that's we are a small town who can't just go and give all these orders to all these operations. >> Well, that's why I'm suggesting uh uh a
continuence to give us an opportunity to uh settle out some of these things. But but we never done that before. >> There's no reason. >> We didn't we didn't give the Airbnb We didn't give the Airbnb person a continuence until we changed our bylaws. So, we can't I I don't think we can give
a continuence here. >> If we're thinking that we're changing by Should we change a bylaws? I I agree with you, Jerry, >> but I don't think we should do it in this instance when we haven't done it in other instances. >> Okay. >> Specifically, this is administrative appeal.
>> Yes, we got to remember this is administrative appeal. Right. Ralph wasn't right. That's not >> attorney. Were you gonna >> I I was just going to mention I I think your your your analogy there. It's it's it's a different I mean whether or not
that could be an accessory use is part of that analysis. Is it customary? So what is accessory in Fall River or New Bedford or Aushnet is a could be different than what is accessory here in
Westport because is it customary? Maybe those have been used that that type of accessory use has been used here for >> a hundred years. So it is customary in the in the zoning district. It would be okay. >> So maybe some of that >> but they haven't proved that.
>> This isn't a this isn't an accessory use analysis. This is a flat the the use is I I don't think you can say that this is an accessory use to this property. Right. This is the primary use of this property. >> Right. >> I hear what you're saying, but really uh
to to give a continuence um for this. It does it it doesn't seem this doesn't make any sense. It it seems like a bad president. And and >> the thing is is that I think everybody here pretty much agrees that they can take care of it. >> Well, that's what I was about to say.
It's like why make it into >> until until they just clarify when they can do it. >> Uh then I I'm thinking otherwise as long as we give them sufficient time >> Yeah. >> to to get in line and and uh we we're
just hearing them one of them say that that would be a tall order to do it in whatever day >> 60 day. But we could say we could give it longer. We could say >> well that's what I'm saying. I don't care how we do it. And I I think at minimum we should give them to December 31st, >> but then we maybe want to say we want to
give them to April 1st to give them some springtime, but you don't ever know what the weather's going to be. So >> let's face it, they're not doing anything in January and February. So, >> you know, 60 days, you know, not, you know, but again, that's the point of now making a decision. We're still in the in
asking questions mode and I'm not if if if we're done asking questions I'm going to open it up to the public unless unless somebody else has a a question rather than how we're going to handle it. >> I have a Okay. >> So
60 days you need 90 70 60 again >> take off what you brought in not necessarily that originated there. So, if that firewood originated there, you don't got to get rid of it until he tells you to. >> I mean, I I would like to see 90 days at
least. We do split firewood all winter anyway. Um, but if if the firewood is not an issue, and and that's I guess that's up to Ralph. If that's not an issue, then >> uh there really isn't other than a pile of compost anything that really should be in violation because the wall stone
should should be able to stay, the firewood should be able to stay, and really the compost should be able to stay. So, you're not bringing in any of that stuff? >> I'm I'm not hauling anything in. I've only hauled things out for we we figured out that we were going to lose the property, >> you know, in the works maybe a year ago
and everything has been getting depleted. That's the idea. So, that we're not stockpiling stuff there. >> Shouldn't be a problem because you're not moving a whole lot, >> right? >> As long as you're not going to come back and say you you can't have this agricultural stuff >> that didn't didn't originate on the property.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. And the then just one more question would be you you guys say that if if no one's complained about it then you don't necessarily we don't end up here. So has someone actually complained about this or is this somebody driving
by? >> Well that's >> yeah they did complain and do we have a name to go with that or >> see I we're all of the board of selectman. I have to deal with any kind of uh complaint that comes across me, whether it be anonymous or not. And most
of it is anonymous complaints. I figure I know where they're coming from. I couldn't say where they come from. >> This is a board of appeals. >> Yeah. And just just to make this clear, Ralph is both the zoning enforcement officer and the building inspector. >> He can't spend his whole day looking for
violations of zoning. So the only way that we understand that there's a violation of zoning is if somebody complains about it >> or he stumbles >> or he stumbles upon it in his normal course of >> he's got 15% of his time just building inspection >> and occasionally he does stumble
upon zoning violations while he's doing his building inspection and then he will address it. But the other stuff is that is brought to his attention. >> I think it comes down to right now we're just asking for time to get rid of it. >> Yes. Okay. >> It's not. Is he right? Probably with the zoning. He probably is. I don't know if
there's if it's been here so many years it's grandfathered in. I heard if it was more than 10. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. >> True. >> But I don't know. I can't answer that. And basically, we're looking for >> it's all going to go away anyways. That's just a timing issue. >> Yeah. June 1st, it's got to be gone to
get that finalized with the state of Massachusetts. Okay. >> It has to be done. >> And and for Tenny's point, the top soil has to be back because they want that back in, >> right? They're going to do a in final inspection before they'll disperse any funds. >> So your agreement that your for the sale
of the property >> says that uh serious business can't continue >> they no they basically they can say I have to rent it as agricultural. So if >> okay >> you're saying agricultural is go down in
my woods cut a tree cut it up split it >> that's agriculture >> then that's agricultural. He said that a lot of what he's got there is that >> right >> that means that he can continue >> correct >> forever. >> Correct. >> With that part. >> Correct. As long as you don't bring it in. You'll
>> run out of trees ultimately. >> Well, you can run out of trees. >> But you'll never run out of rocks. >> He's going to grow more trees. >> No. In Westport, you never run out of rocks. >> Well, no. >> Well, no. No. You never run out of rocks. >> No, you don't. >> Trees. You can run out of >> rocks. You never run out of >> rocks. never run out of. >> So basically, I guess we're just down to
the fact we're looking till we were hoping to get till June when everything goes cuz the winter there's going to be no operations anyways. So we're just trying to get it >> to where nobody gets stuck with a huge fine. Yep. >> And I mean I know it's the water trucks
are gone. That was the biggest complaint. >> The noise isn't there, but >> Okay. Okay. If I I'm going to open it up to the public. Anybody have uh anybody in the audience have a comment on this?
Oh my. Okay. Name and address. >> John Olivera D3 Sodom Road. I live next door to the property. >> Name again, please. >> John Olivera. >> John informed me that they have to be out of there by June. Like he said, the operation has been
there for 20 years. There's never been a problem. Um, now there's one that's been brought up to Ralph. We know who it is and all that. Does it make Does it make a difference? Doesn't make a difference. >> Doesn't make any difference.
>> If Mr. Potter don't bring anything in and serious business don't bring anything in, then it should be a problem at all. >> Correct. So that seven day, >> right, >> was only if they were going to bring stuff in,
>> right? >> Yeah. >> If uh if Sirius in January wants to go chop down the tree >> and split it, >> is he allowed to? >> Yeah. >> All the trucks and that's gone. >> I I Can you say that again? >> If serious business wants to go down and
chop down the tree in the back, >> they can drop any tree they want. Yes. >> But there was a lot of material there that was brought in, >> right? But it has to be brought down. Correct. >> Not to bring anything else in >> and and get >> and get rid of everything that been brought in. >> Correct. Right.
>> Brought in. >> Unless it's being unless what's brought in is going to be used. >> Unless you're going to use it. >> Use it on the property. >> On the property. >> Yeah. >> Right. So that seventh day. >> Yeah. It's basically >> only if stuff was going to be brought in. >> No, it's it's removal of stuff that was
brought in and and it's not going to be used. That has to be removed because that's >> within seven days. And >> well that's what >> that's and that's what we're saying was too short. >> Right. >> There wasn't enough time to do it in seven days. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> So by giving them >> more time
>> 60 or 90 days and if they promise not to bring any more stuff in >> fine >> should be okay. Right. >> Yeah. Well we're going to talk about that. I mean I can't give you an answer now. That's what the board's going to talk about. >> Well fair enough. >> Anybody else?
>> Any other >> I have a question. So, um I go up and down Sodom Road a lot because I live over there and um and I was noticing when I went to see the property um and I've always wondered about this. It
might even be it I think it's a property that's like two down. It's 1055. It looks to me like they have a jet ski business. >> Yeah. >> Is that really is >> that's not on my property? >> That has anything to do with your property? >> No. Well, it looks like Would that have
anything to So, that has nothing to do with the agricultural piece of this because >> that's his own house law. >> That's that's a separate issue. >> It's a separate house law. >> Neighbors >> that's tradesman. >> Yeah. >> There like >> you go down a little. You go down a little more.
>> I mean, it's right next to >> Angel shops running right. >> Yeah. So, I didn't know if that had any do >> that's a dokis. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> He's got good deals on them if you want to buy one. Any other >> any other questions, comments before?
>> No. Okay, I'll entertain a motion to close the hearing. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. All oppose. No. >> No. Nobody. Okay, that's unanimous. Then all that means is now we don't take any information in. We'll deliberate and and
render a decision. >> All right. Uh I I think as it this is obvious that Ralph was correct in that they were running a business so the administrative appeal is appropriate. I you know I understand the uh the
complication of trying to comply with the seven days is is you know moving that much stuff just can't be done. So, I'm in favor of of giving him of of uh uh rejecting the appeal o of the
uh rejecting the petition for the appeal, but uh but I mean, how are we going to say this? part of the >> you would you would deny it with respect >> deny the cease and deny the appeal of the assist with respect to the violations of zoning zoning
>> but you would grant the appeal with respect to the seven days and make it >> and make it 60 or >> whatever you the December 31st whatever you decide >> so >> I'll make that motion >> but to to when to I said 60 days or December 31st
>> 90 days >> well 90 days is in January I think December 31st makes sense because >> 70 as long as something with that >> as long as it's reasonable and they can do it. >> Yeah.
>> January and February anyway. >> That was that's so to to December 31st is 77 days. So >> nothing's going to happen in January because we're going to the only time we get snow if we get snow is January, right? So as long as they get everything out that was brought in by December
31st. >> Okay. And part of my motion >> and you can Yeah, exact. I knew that. I'm just helping you out here, Jerry. I know. >> And then anything that is, you know, if you're if there's rocks that were pre-existing that isn't a pile, then,
you know, that's fine. If there's if there's more, uh, lumbering or whatever you call it, uh, going on because obviously for the winter people need, uh, firewood. As long as it's coming from the property, it's okay, right?
Okay, >> that's a very long motion. So, >> no, I I'm that wasn't a motion. >> I think uh >> so they have like I'll make it shorter. They have until December 31st, 2025 to remove all materials that were not
native to the property >> and cease all operations >> of bringing commercial operations. >> All all commercial operations. Correct. Um, so this is going to be like this will be then suggesting a two-part decision that we
reject the petition for uh the uh administrative appeal of the cease and desist order and we grant the appeal of the uh how maybe the uh >> conducting business in a resial
>> seven days to remove to to be in compliance. and uh modify it to to have all the materials removed by December 31st. All commercial operations to cease. The
other thing we need to talk the only thing is is then we have to be careful about uh times of operations. I certainly don't want him doing stuff at 2 in the morning to do this. So I suggest then that we put in the normal
business hours uh of >> I think it's >> the town's bylaw >> bylaw specifies I think 7 a.m. >> 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. >> for the uh uh for the removal process and uh >> Monday through Saturday is it
>> and >> or Monday through Friday? >> Monday through Friday >> and half a day on Saturday >> is it? >> Yeah. Yeah, I thought so. >> Yeah, >> if that's the town bylaw, you could say consistent with >> consistent with the town bylaw. There
you go. Consistent with the bylaw of commercial operations. >> Second. >> Any discussion about that? >> We've had lots. >> Uh, everybody understand it? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, I made a motion. Constant
seconding. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. All oppose. No. That's unanimous. It's a 20-day appeal process, so. >> All right. >> You're set to go. >> All right. >> You should be good. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming.
>> Thank you. >> Okay. >> And thank you for what you're doing uh with your property. >> Trying. >> We really appreciate it. >> We do. >> Okay. The second order of business is 708 Sanford Road, a hearing on petition of Dr.
uh safic uh beer. Oh, okay. DMD LLC for a finding that the expansion of the existing building shall not be substantially more detrimental than the existing non-conforming use to the neighborhood as mandated by zoning bylaw article 2 section 2534 and/or special
permit subject permit is subject property is located at 708 Sanford Road Westport mat shown on uh sess map 30 lot 47 I'm going to recuse myself from this because I'm a patient.
>> Westport Dental is my wife and and myself dentists that we see quite often, way too often. >> So, I'm going to recuse myself and I am going to assign and and because of that, uh Jerry is going to take over as chair
for this meeting. >> Jerry, it's all yours. >> And then the voting members are going to Well, he'll figure that out. And >> yeah, you don't want to have anything happen to the dental chair. Should this >> you want to take your uh your sign there if I got to move over there?
>> Oh, yeah. >> You don't want to be confused. >> I don't want them getting mad. Yeah. >> The things that I do. >> I'm not even sitting back there. Okay. >> All right. Get the Been dying to do that. I know.
>> Power corrupts, right? >> Okay. All right. Did you Did you read the uh No, >> I did. >> Yes. Okay. >> Okay. >> Somebody's got to say the voting members. >> Yeah. Okay. So, the voting members, I
guess, will >> you all be all of it, right? >> Yeah. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh so anyway, George, Constance, Cynthia, Janice. >> Yep. >> Not Yeah, he's not voting.
>> Ralph's not voting. Oh, sorry. >> Not me. >> Okay. All right. So, anyway, uh uh and uh you know the meeting is being recorded. >> Yes. >> So, okay. So, like to hear from you.
>> Certainly. Good evening. For the record, my name is Peter Solino. I'm a lawyer. My address is 550 Locust Street in Fall River. I represent the applicant petitioner, Dr. Shashadri, who's immediately here to my right. Uh the proposal before the board is for a finding that the proposed expansion of
his dental office is not detrimental to the neighborhood. Um I'm certain that the board is aware that they have the ability to make that finding. And so I'll cut right to the chase, which is to say we need to demonstrate to you why the proposal is not more detrimental to the neighborhood than what is already
there. And so I'd submit the following facts. The rear yard setback in this district is 10 ft. As per the plan, the setback, even with the addition on the building, will still be 117.4 ft. So we're not any worse off for the neighbor
to the east. Additionally, the neighbor to the east is Liberty Utilities, which is a public utility. uh obviously so it's not like a residential use where somebody may allege that the encroachment upon their privacy is detrimental. So I think that's an important fact. Next um the sideyard
setback in the district is 10 ft. And as you can see on the plan even with the addition uh Dr. Shashadri would hold the 34.9 foot side setback on the southerntherly side of his building. Therefore, again, not more detrimental in the sense that it is not getting any
closer to the neighbor. Um, next, the parking requirements as per the engineered drawings are 20.5 for this amount of square footage. We provide 24. It should be noted for the record that the proposal uh adds four spaces to the
existing parking area. And then finally, uh, the additional lot coverage is still below the 50% allowance in that district. So for all of the foregoing reasons, I'd submit to the board that what he wants to do is not more detrimental than what's there and in
fact based on the evidence presented that you should be able to make the finding that this is appropriate. >> Uh, now nothing changes in terms of where the patients enter. Is that correct? Yeah, everything remains the same.
>> Okay. >> Because the addition is to the back side of the property, not the front side. >> Now, the way I read it, it appeared to me as you're going to be adding two rooms. Is that correct? >> Uh, we're actually adding four rooms. >> I'm sorry. >> Four rooms. >> Four rooms.
>> Correct. Okay. >> Because the property initially also on the second floor had an option for four rooms. when I bought it from the previous owner in 2014. We're just taking off the option from having it upstairs and moving it back.
>> So, what's what's going to go upstairs? >> It's just administrative office. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Not patience. >> No. >> Okay. All right. >> I have a question. Um when I went to see the property, uh of course it was very, you know, it was pouring rain, but it
seemed like it's really when you build out back there that it's very very close to a wetland. Is it or was it just that I mean with the fact that everything was being flooded? Um is that problematic or? >> Um I don't >> it's northwest for it so it's pretty >> damp. I can offer that on the plan the
wetlands line is shown. Um, >> yeah, I I >> so I think somewhat it's a little bit of an engineering question about what's, you know, close to the wetlands, but they have the wetlands flagged. It's a blue line on the plan. >> We don't have color.
>> We don't have color. >> Would you like me to approach and provide you this copy that has color? >> It says overgrown brush area and then there's the is would it be the A? Is that the A line? Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. >> It all looked like wetland. >> Well, because it's it's Northwestport. It all is wet. >> Yeah. Um, >> and looking at the other thing on the on the smaller thing, it actually doesn't even like doesn't even appear to be
wetlands on his lot, but there is obviously some that has >> I I think one of the reasons why you got that feeling is because we cleaned up a lot of the brush and everything there and flattened it out. >> So when it was in case it was raining when you went there, it's just >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, it was just flooded. Well, there's the last couple days, >> but it but where you've got the new parking areas, it is I'm not sure exactly what the um the scale. Okay. Well, >> it's only these four new spaces. So,
>> um I I got it. Um it's within it's very I mean the wetland comes right up to the parking area. Is that that's not problematic for conservation? Uh if if if it were that you you may >> it be it'd be conservation
>> go to conservation commission anyway >> when it comes in if it gets approved by this board when it comes into me it's going to conservation it's going border health >> okay >> so yeah so they may limit the parking spaces >> or move them maybe you know further
towards the building or something I >> if it's an issue with conservation conservation will present with >> it okay yeah I understand but I I mean it was it was >> there were frogs, you know, jumping around. So I was
>> and I can also offer that the uh we provide the necessary parking. So those four spaces I don't think are a requirement of the building code, but rather a concession to show good faith. >> So if that were a concern, we could strike those parking spaces to truncate the amount of parking and still comply
with the requirement. >> Yes. >> Okay. That that was really the only question I had. >> Sure. >> Any other questions? >> Not for me. >> Open it to the public.
>> Roger. As a as a concerned citizen in town, do you have any questions? >> Val. [Laughter] All right. Okay. So, >> I don't think Val's arrest. >> No issues at all.
>> No. Looks like no issues >> and all we got to do is find that it's not substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood. Is that correct? >> That is correct. You can also you can close the the evidentiary portion of the hearing >> and that the you close the evidentary
portion of the hearing and then yeah >> if there's nothing else look for a motion to close the hearing. >> Motion to close the hearing. >> Second. >> Motion made and seconded to close the hearing. All in favor? I >> I >> So to answer your question, Mr.
Chairman, it says here that you have to find the board of appeals that such change, extension, or alteration shall not be substantially more detrimental than the existing non-conforming use to the neighborhood. >> So the it's substantially more detrimental. >> Well, that's what I said.
>> Yep. Yep. >> Okay. Um Okay, then. So any discussion? >> Not really. No, it's more substantially detrimental to me because I hate the dentist. But um >> see, I thought people hated Lord. >> I was just gonna say that to him. See
how we feel. >> We hear it a couple of times today. >> I don't hate them. I I'm already salivating because I have this reflex just talking about the dentist. >> Um so, >> and not in a good way. Huh.
>> I don't see a problem at all. >> Okay. I think it's good that he's putting on the first floor than having dental patients traverse upstairs to increase your practice >> and we all know how hard it is to get an appointment at a dentist. >> No, he he has indicated that uh now now
I assume the uh upstairs rooms that are currently being used for dental work. Is that >> No, we since I bought it, we have not used. >> Not not since it but I'm talking about in the past. >> Yes, in the past. >> Okay. So my my uh I I don't know if it really matters. No.
>> But I do want to say that maybe we could condition it that because he has indicated that they're not going to use those for >> for for patients. >> Well, you'd have to get more parking, I think, if he did. >> Well, then then maybe Yeah,
>> maybe it could affect it. So, I'm just suggesting maybe that be a condition. >> Why? I don't see a reason why because I think I think >> for the reason you just said >> I think I think if he makes it into he'll have to come back and ask for more parking
>> if he wants to do rever all the it's not it's not appropriate for patients anymore. >> So it's basically going to be a boardroom. >> Mhm. >> The staff break area storage area for the staff >> a doctor's office with the shower and closet. >> Yeah.
>> That's what's going to be there. So you'd accept the condition if the board >> Absolutely. >> I mean we can >> accepting it >> as we often do is just to put in there that uh that this decision is made
um per the presentation the plans so forth. So I mean it it is taken care of from there cuz uh the um the uh presentation um indicated that there will not be
patients up there. So we've kind of covered that. I was just trying to make it >> yeah but but again you could see that he could sell it in 20 years and people might want to put patients up there. So I don't want to put a condition on his permit. I just want to say that it's per the plans and there's no plans to be
done upstairs and if he wants to do something else upstairs beside dental offices then they need to come back. >> Right. There is a plan and the plan is that there will not be patient >> correct. >> So anyway okay anyone want to make a
motion? I make a motion to approve the >> it's a finding >> finding >> uh conditioned upon uh you know in conformance of the proposed plans. >> I second. >> Okay. And that's per per the uh plans
and presentation u and uh and application and the u okay. So it's been moved then to find that it's not substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood.
>> That's the key words. Okay. All right. It's been moved and seconded. It was seconded, right? Okay. And all all in favor? >> I >> I >> unanimous. All set. You know, there's a
20-day appeal period. Uh and you're all set to go. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you all. Appreciate. >> Do you provide nitrous oxide? >> Yes, we do. >> My favorite dentist now that does not. And so >> a lot of them don't anymore. >> Not Not a lot of them do.
>> No. >> No. Yeah, >> he knows this. >> I take value. >> I do. >> My old dentist in Watertown had take value at the same time. We both did.
>> I'm not a very good person. >> I I literally am I'm literally jealous. >> You made a lot easier tonight. Just put it in. He made my life a lot easier saying >> I have to have two >> recycle.
>> It all happened while I was fine. >> Whatever. >> I got called because I didn't really >> Okay, we continue with our our business part of this meeting. contined trauma. >> Thank Thank you very much. >> Thank Thanks for coming again. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Uh we have two sets of meeting minutes. So I'll start off with August 20th, 2025. Maria has uh provided us with uh the meeting minutes. They've been uh updated with comments and I make a motion to approve the meeting minutes for August
20, 2025. >> I second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. Likewise, uh, meeting minutes for September. I'm gonna borrow this. Okay. >> Yeah, sure. >> September 10th, 2025. Maria has provided uh the meeting minutes and has updated
as appropriate. And I make a motion to to approve the September 10, 2025 meeting minutes. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. >> Okay. Uh, >> you should jump in there, Janice. I feel
like I'm feel like I'm in kindergarten. I'm still learning. >> I think you you're in first grade now. >> Just so people know that you were here. I second it. So seconded by Janice. >> She's had a microphone and she hasn't used it. >> I know. Well, I mean I'm scared, but I'm listening and I'm learning.
>> Okay. Um I know uh that Ray isn't here, but >> we we do need to to continue on. Um, one of the things that we put together some time ago and I sent everybody is a
proposed change to our our bylaws. >> Oh yeah. >> Um, >> let me pull it out. >> It two very um simple changes and I I did talk to uh attorney Blake about this. >> That was it. >> Thank you. >> What I am proposing is
>> under section two chair it used to it. I want to add the statement right now that right now uh if the chair is here the chair becomes the chair for the meeting. If the chair isn't here, the vice chair
becomes and if either of us are here, then the rest of you >> pen for ourselves, >> decides, >> select, you know, and I think it's like whoever showed showed up last or something, you know, gets to be. But anyway, >> um what what I'm proposing is to add a
sentence that says the chair may assign the vice chair to preside over a meeting or a hearing. What that would allow me to to well the chair to do is is to >> for a given meeting have the vice chair chair the meeting while the chair is
still there as a >> essentially as a training tool to to get comfortable with being the chair >> and the chair and you know for for that meeting while you know the more experienced person is here to sort of help guide it through. There is no one
more experienced than Jerry. >> But Jerry will never be chair. He He's He's already identified that. >> Really? >> Correct. >> He was well years back. >> We'll never take the chair. >> I I am reconsidering that. Um
um if if it becomes the situation. Okay. So, uh yeah, we can do it. Okay. I just I just did it. >> You did, right? Yes. But you would prefer not to. >> That's correct. >> There is, you know, I'm not getting any
younger either. So, >> yes, I mean, uh, >> anybody have any issue with that? No, >> I have no issue with it as long as it's consistent with any laws of this. I I checked with actually Jeff thought it was a really good idea >> because >> otherwise you just if if some I don't
show up and you know then >> well right now like it's always been the two of you and Jerry's been chair you're you know before I was probably born but >> but that doesn't all the time but I do like >> the second one is actually one that >> let me let me address that pot uh because
>> I know it was I was born by then >> uh in the past and I did it once once. Um I think I I think I've told you folks this. Uh I was concerned that the alternates never get an opportunity to
to really actually act right through the voting process. >> And so I thought, well, I'll step out and I'll sit like Roger just did. Uh I'll sit in the audience and and uh like
make believe I'm not here. And so the alternates would be able to do the entire hearing and u and I did that. Well, I was later told that that was wrong. Yeah, >> I'm not supposed to do that.
>> Uh so I'm a little confused now. The chair can do it >> and sit in the audience. >> But he can only give the chair to the vice chair. He can't give it to associate member. >> No, no, no. No. Yes, that's right. That's the difference. But what I'm saying is why can't I as just the
regular member sit in the audience so that an alternate can can fill in >> because it's the because any it's the rules of alternates and regular members. I think that's what the controls and here is different because the vice chair is a regular member and you can pass it to a regular member.
>> But I think that it and I'm just talking Yeah. out of my you know what. >> Um but I think it has to do with that the alternate member and the the full members are are different categories. >> Well, I'd like to see something.
>> I think you have you'd have you'd have to stay home and watch it from home and then an alternate fix. >> Right. Well, I don't really want to do that either, >> but what I'm saying is I would like to see >> the people >> people who verbally told us
>> that that isn't allowed. >> I would like to see a citation >> uh to to to know why because I still think it's a good idea. >> I think we should be able to do that. >> I talked to Jeff Blake specifically about this. I showed him this >> and I said, "What do you think about
this?" He said this this first part that said it's absolutely there's no problem with that at all. Matter of fact, he thinks it's a wonderful idea because it'll it gives it gives experience to the vice chair, >> right? >> And that's really what you need, you
know, you know, to to continue this process. >> But did he address the one I'm talking about >> now? And the next one I'm getting to and and I talked to him about that and he said he said if somebody really really pushed hard they might find it to be
right on the edge. Me let me read the next one has to do with voting members and is as >> Oh yeah because you've done that before but you've taken a voting. Yeah. So >> we've had a little >> the right now essentially it says if the regular members are here they are
automatically the ones who vote. The only time an alternate votes is if a is if a regular member is either not here or recuses himself. Okay. And again, and I know Jerry has brought this up a couple times. It's again, it's a
training kind of a thing. We want Janice and Well, now it's just >> we want, you know, the alternates to have to feel like they're part of the process. And so what I what I suggest what it used to
say or what it says now is alternate member will only be seated if one of the five regular members is unable to vote to replace a regular member by a uh uh anyway that's >> where are you reading that
>> I'm reading under order of business section five paragraph D >> the chair announces the board members who will be seated on the petition. What I'm suggesting is we change it to alternate members will only be seated if one of the five members is unable to
vote or to replace a regular member by a majority vote of the regular members. What that allows you to do is for say this, you know, the hearing that we just had, which is relatively simple,
uh we could just have the uh majority vote of the members saying, "Janice, why don't you do this one even though we're all here, >> you know, why don't we have one of the alternates as a voting member?" >> Yeah. >> And I and and again, Jeff thought it was a good idea. He said it's it stretches
the the rule but it's but it's uh but if we put it in our but if we put it in our our own procedures then that becomes the that becomes the rule >> becomes okay. >> Anybody have any issue with either of those? >> No. >> No.
>> Again as an ultimate member myself at one point I think the I don't know if you would say anything. I think the more important thing is being part of the discussions. the end the end they'll vote is really it kind of almost I don't sometimes want to vote right >> right >> you know
>> but so I don't you know here I don't I don't think they I don't think an altered member gains experience just by voting I think they gain experience by participating >> but giving you know I'm trying to get there yes I have >> you can do whether you vote or not >> not >> right and I know that right
>> but I'm okay >> the voting part of it becomes now that just that extra little piece that now you're really on the not work for it, but >> yeah, >> you know, >> you know, you've got, you know, you've got, >> you know, skin. >> And I also think, you know,
we probably wouldn't put in the rules, but I think if you're going to say one day to make either George or um >> what's her name? >> Uh Janice. I know Janice very well. A voting a voting even though they're all
here, I think a conversation before the meeting is appropriate to make sure that they're comfortable. >> Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Yes. >> That's sort of nothing that immediately. >> And generally speaking, what >> have >> what my thought would be is that >> is that in either case, either the um uh the
chair or the member, you would tend to do that on cases that are not terribly cont. You're not going to do it on a 40B, you know, you're going to do it on something that's not terribly because you really want to build up >> a, you know, >> you feel confident, >> a confidence thing.
>> And I I watched George for a long time. We were both quiet over here, but like I feeling a little better that he's participating more. I'm like, "Okay, I'm almost there. Maybe I can." >> He's got an ear wiggle in with from me. So, it's >> It was uh >> I would have liked to
>> in my mind, it was a matter of what I'll call training. Uh >> yeah, you have It's a lot. >> Yes, they they're sitting here. By the way, I will tell you that that >> for years we've had alternates that we don't even see. >> Mhm. >> That's the thing. Show up. Okay.
>> Exactly. Gives them a reason to show up and a reason >> feel they're a part of it. >> Yeah. No, I love this. You know what I mean? >> I mean, you've showed up as you've like hurt yourself. >> You know, >> I showed up here three days ago. >> They just sit there and they're not a part of the voting. >> Uh it's like, you know, why am I here?
You know, I can watch it on TV. Right. >> Uh right. >> So, that that was my purpose. >> Yeah. and and to to make sure that you're prep like you're prepared if you're if you're going to show up that you're prepared because at any given time you may be called to actually vote on something. >> And I get that >> pop quiz.
>> Pop quiz. >> Exactly. >> I would have definitely >> which I think in you know I think you know George and and and both Janice have showed up that way. So >> So do you need >> I would have definitely to change. >> So what I need to do is I need unless anybody has any suggestions on how to change it.
>> No. >> No. Then I then I make a motion we approve the the the uh the amendments um as as provided. >> Right. So all in favor? >> I oppose. No. Okay. So I'll write I'll send this Maria to you.
>> Uh >> so next time we have a cell tower issue. I'm going to like pass it on to >> what does that mean? Oh boy. >> Your your unability to act because you're so um traumatized in the first one. >> Exactly. I might do that for the 40B,
too. I can't. I'm so traumatized. >> Okay, the last thing is, you know, again, you know, I know I know Ray isn't here, and I'd like to have Ray here for for this, but uh we really need we we need to have uh officers for the year. Should have been done in July, but it
wasn't a good idea to do that during the 40B process. So, uh, we'll start off with, uh, with chair and make a, uh, >> nominate >> nomination. >> I'd like to nominate Roger.
>> Second, >> third. >> Yeah. Unanimous. >> Okay. All in favor? >> I >> I guess it's six to one or five five to one. Okay. >> If you're if because you're you're willing to >> I'm willing. I am willing to accept. I know that you >> You said that last time. >> The town needs you.
>> What's that? You said you were willing last. >> I'm willing. I'm willing to take this. Yes. >> Okay. Uh, vice chair. I I know Jerry's been vice chair for forever and a day. I mean, are you um are you still content to do that or I'm still >> I nominate Ray?
>> Well, >> well, I was gonna nominate Cynthia, but >> I nominate Ray and I will fill his place until if Ray can come back. >> How about Jerry? I mean, Jerry, you're like a a wealth of knowledge. I would
like to continue. Um um I guess I should stop there. But um after all these years, I uh I like I just told you, I'm reconsidering
that if I think Roger's concern is that when he's ready to leave, we want to have somebody there to do it uh to fill in. And u and I think I'd be willing to do that. And if that changes because I get sick
or something like that because I am getting older um then I I step down at that point and we could move on >> and also >> so I mean it's up to the board >> but it's also you this what was just put in can still
>> no only for the vice chair so it just be him and Jerry so that it defeats the purpose of what you're saying and the reason I think we should nominate Ray because I think we talked about it beforehand and he's been here longer. And I know that he's has some issues right now, but I think out of respect, I mean, you were talking about a little
respect before. I'm not sure if you're talking about Ray. I think we should nominate him. Hopefully vote him in, and if he wants to step down, then we nominate somebody else >> for this is for >> I I think I think we owe it to Raid to to nominate him in and then have him step down.
>> You know, I I don't think that's a bad idea because I I think that >> because he I mean >> I mean, >> I've been here long want to. >> But you do you want to be the vice president? >> I want No, he does. He does. >> Show him that we're still thinking about him.
>> Yeah. And I think >> and if you can't then >> then we then we have another we have another vote next week. Next time we meet. But I think out of respect for Ry because as you and I and him and you have all had conversations and I think it would mean the world to
him if we voted him in. Yeah. And then if he decides that he wants to step down, then he asks maybe he needs to step down from the board completely and then he has Right. >> Right. >> And then we find another vice chair and then >> so we could do it again next month. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
>> You know, I think you know >> I think that would make him feel good. >> I think it would >> anything to perk up his >> anything to perk up because he needs it. >> Yeah. Right. >> So I I nominate Ray Elias as vice chair. >> Second. >> All in favor? I
>> I that secretary and I nominate >> the secretary. >> Hopefully never have to do anything. >> We have a second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I'm willing to do it again.
>> As long as as long as we do this year. >> Huh? >> What did you do this year? >> Nothing. >> Oh, good. >> But Marina's making noises about >> But if if she leaves, then we all leave. Yeah. >> Yeah, I think so. I think >> I was going to say what
>> Maria is making noises about leaving. >> No. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh, any other >> We'll get Michelle to take the job. >> I don't know. >> Um, Maria, how long >> I can.
>> Okay. What I was thinking was that I would tell him the decision. Um, >> he's probably watching. >> He's watching. >> Yeah, I bet he is. >> Yeah. So, he already knows everything. >> You're out there, Ray. >> Yes. Hey, Ray.
>> Um, but as the vice chair, I think that's that should come from you. >> Okay. >> Very good. Any other business? >> I don't think so. >> I make motion to adjourn the meeting. >> Second. All in favor? I Okay, I'm trying
to get good at this. >> Trying to get it quick.