Um, I arrived first. Um, and it's it's always a scary situation when you're when you're the first, um, person that gets there. So, thankfully, uh, Deputy Heim arrived just shortly after me. Um, I had the automatic defibrillator that
we have in our squad cars. I talked to the reporting party. He said the, uh, the female uh went down, you know, a couple minutes ago. So I um put the defibrillator on the female. Um it
advised shock. So I shocked her once, did CPR on her for a short time. It advised shock again. So shocked her again. Deputy Heim arrived and she kind of took over the CPR of of the female.
After that, the other emergency responding units, medical responding units arrived and kind of took over the scene um for probably half an hour or so. We worked at getting a heartbeat back to her. So, eventually she did get a heartbeat back and um her breathing
was restored and then she was transported to Winona Health and then from there um she was transported to Gunderson in Lacrosse. So, that's kind of uh what we know. So Darren, here's the certificate I'd
like to present you and Kendra. >> And thank you both. >> Thank you. >> Question. I have a question. Yes. Question officers. If I have a do not resuscitate order, you have no idea of knowing what that is. >> Well, it's nice to have like the
homeowners. somebody that you're you're living with >> would know that >> or somebody that you're um as a neighbor or something like that would know that you have a DNR um >> would you have to see documentation to >> usually what happens is they throw it right on the refrigerator um so it
somewhere in the area where >> along with the grandchildren's artwork you put your >> right usually it's a bright pink or yellow or some sort of uh copy like that but we don't if we don't know you you don't have one then we're still going to go about our business and try to resuscitate you. Until we're advised,
you have a do not resuscitate order. At that time, any life-saving measures will be ceased. >> Okay. So, where do you get these stickers? >> If you have a DNR, they had you you'll get it. You know, >> my my grandparents had it on their healthcare provider provide you with
that. >> The check on the light. >> Were you a little sore in CPR? >> We don't have a sticker. Okay. I have to get a sticker. >> It's It's harder than what a person thinks. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, three times. >> Thank you for literally saving >> Yeah. Thank you for caring for what you
do, but you know, some people just have different >> wishes. Y >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Appreciate your service. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Okay. Uh are there other folks in the audience that would like to share some thoughts during the public comment period of the meeting? And again, we
will be having a public hearing as a part of the conditional use permit when that comes up on the agenda. >> Morning. >> Morning. >> Chassity Saraki. I live at 1254 West 3rd Street in Winona. So, uh, we've had two cyber attacks on county systems
recently, and I hope the board and our auditor treasurer will have some serious discussions about how um, vulnerable our election systems are. Um, one example is the poll pads that are used at polling
locations. They are um connected to the internet and I am afraid that this leaves our voting uh information vulnerable to bad actors. Uh we do not need to use the poll pads. I know
statutoily we are required to use the tabulators but it is my understanding our tabulators are not connected to the internet. However, the poll pads are and also statutoily we are required to have the three ring binders with the paper uh voting roles. And so I would encourage
the board and the auditor treasurer to let's just use those and save our voting information, you know, from the hands of bad actors. So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Is there anyone else here in the audience that would like to share in the public comment period? Administrator
Holty, can folks online uh unmute themselves and share as well or not this time. >> I am not 100% sure. Uh Heidi, can you answer that question? And meanwhile, if anyone else here would like to speak, please come to the
podium. >> Anyone online is able to unmute and speak. >> Um she said she did say something. She said they can unmute. >> Okay, they can. Okay, so the volume must be down. We must have volume here.
>> Coming out of something over here. >> Yeah. All right. So, if anyone who is participating online wants to share in public comment, please unmute yourself. >> Sorry if I could do something. And I'm going to just ask one more time. I'll
give it a couple seconds, but and just one more time, is there anyone here in the audience or online who would like to participate in public comment? >> Sure. >> Hearing none, I'm going to move on. Uh fourth item on our agenda, it' be approval of the uh some prior county
board minutes. >> I'll second that. >> Commissioner Singing has moved. Commissioner Begley has seconded approval of the county board minutes for March 24th, 2026. Is there any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. If
>> anyone's opposed, say nay. Okay. Passes unanimously. Item five, uh, we have some committee meeting minutes that we potentially could approve. >> So move again. I'll second that. >> Okay. Commissioner Eling moves and Commissioner Vegley seconds. approval of
the EDA, the economic development authority minutes from October 23rd of last year, the board of adjustment from December 18th of this year of last year, pardon me, and the planning commission from December 18th of 2025 as well. Any further discussion?
Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. >> Oppos say nay. >> Motion carries. Consent, comments, and approval of agenda. Um admin uh county attorney's office. Do you have any changes to the agenda?
None. Uh thank you commissioner. V >> one comment at the m >> I'd like to pull 710 for discussion. >> All right. Part of my packets on the floor. 710 is
the approval of exit grid. We're gonna put that on I think >> a comment at the end please. >> Yeah. Okay. >> 105. >> Um >> 8.4 maybe. >> Yeah, I'm going to make it 8.4 and put it after the uh conditional use permit.
>> Okay. Uh Commissioner Alson, >> nothing for me. >> Commissioner Ward, >> um I would like to pull 7.7 uh for more discussion and 7.8 um for a different discussion. Uh 710 was already pulled and uh uh comment at
the end, please. So seven, you can make that 85 and >> and 86. >> 86 would be good. Yes. >> Okay. All right. Uh administrator Holty. >> Nothing, Madam Chair. >> Okay. So we have some adjustments to the
agenda. Would anyone like to make a motion to approve the >> move to approve the amended agenda? >> Second. >> Okay. Commissioner Ward moves and Commissioner Olson seconds approval of the modified agenda. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. I. Anyone oppose
say nay. >> Okay. The agenda is approved. Administrator Halty, could you read the remaining consent business for the record? >> Absolutely. 7.1 Approve declaration of local state of emergency and resolution ratifying declaration of local state of
emergency. 7.2 Approve LG240B gambling application for exempt permit Cardinal Foundation. 7.3 Approve new liquor license application for the horse. The horse 7.4 approved state of Minnesota office of justice programs
2026 grant and resolution for sexual assault inter agency council 7.5 award bid for annual supply of gasoline and diesel fuel of or to consolidated energy company 7.6 award
bid for two plow truck chassis to debac truck and diesel incorporated 7.7 and 7.8 8 were pulled 7.9 approved renewal of enterprise license agreement for geographic information system ISRY
software user license 7.10 was pulled 7.11 approved well inventory grant agreement with Minnesota department of health 7.12 approved professional services agreement withstead county for advanced septic inspection and 7.13
authorized disposal of excess equipment. Would anyone like to move for approval of the consent business? >> So move. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. Commissioner Elsing has moved. Commissioner Vley seconds approval of the consent business as it was read. Any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying
I. I. >> I. Anyone's opposed say nay. >> Okay. Consent business has passed. We now move on to general business item 8.1, which is to receive a presentation from the W County fraud investigator. For the record, can you introduce
yourself and thank you? >> So, my name is Gayen Anderson. I work with Wabash County Sheriff's Office. I am um an investigator there. I took over the um welfare or government assistance fraud for the Wabasha region, which is
Good Hugh County, Wabasha County, Winona, and Houston County. And that's where I cover. Um it's all grant funded. Um so kind of like a synopsis of what I do. Um so I look into um programs. Um SNAP some club
rental nutrition uh assistance program. TAMP temporary assistance for needy families. Um cash assistance, emergency assistance, child care assistance, and federal medical assistance. I look into the fraud in these programs. Um,
I don't look into like child care, like what's going on a lot in Minnesota right now. I don't see the the people who are delivering the child care. That's not portion of my um
duties. So, the process of an investigation, so I get a fraud referral from an eligible eligibility worker. um they send it to me kind of outlining what they feel may be fraud within that
case. Um a lot of the common discrepancies that they're seeing is um like the absent parent. So let's say I have a child with somebody um that other person would be an absent parent in a case where they're not living together.
Um income. So people claiming that they don't have income or they're not making any money. they may be making money in cash form or just not claiming their jobs. Um, household composition. So, just kind of exactly what it sounds
like. Um, stating that there's not people living in the home that actually are and that they're contributing to the household in ways of income and that sort of thing. And then residency. Um, we do border the lovely state of
Wisconsin. Um, we do have cases where people are claiming to reside within Winona County or any other county that I investigate that actually reside in um, Wisconsin, Iowa. Those are my general ones that I see. Um, I then so my
process is I get that referral. I then investigate whatever the matter is that they put on the referral. Um, so I use a whole lot of different programs. I usually have like 70 tabs up on my computer when I'm doing an investigation. Um the ones that I go to
pretty much on every case is Clear. So, it's like a law enforcement um based search engine. Um DVS, so driver's licenses. Generally, people like to keep their driver's licenses where they live. Um or it gives me at least a history. Um
I do use MNPA. Um so, court cases. Um, a lot of those I look into because if you get a speeding ticket, you're generally having to give your address to the courts or um, child custody, that that sort of thing. I look into um, I also
look into the DOC, Department of Corrections, their um, websites share with me where people are claiming to their probation agent on where they're living. I use that quite a lot. Um, predatory offender registry, same same
situation. I also look at property tax records. So, um if they own a home here, Wisconsin or Iowa, I can generally um locate that or that's how I find
landlords. Um I also so I CPS I use Family Tree Now is a public data website that gives pretty much everybody who you may be related to. Um and then it also gives out public data with addresses, phone
numbers and all of that. Um child support data and the work network which is work records. So tax income records that I use. Um I also use going out on the street and contacting people in
regards to that case. So, I talk to their the clients that I'm investigating, co-workers, landlords, the absent parent, neighbors, bosses, and friends I've contacted. Um, I also use subpoenas to receive like
protected information, bank records, and all of that kind of stuff. Um I do leases um if their landlord wants prefers to have a um subpoena versus just giving a over the lease agreement.
Um when I have proven that there is or there is not fraud happening within the case um I have options that I use discretion on um for the final outcome. So a lot of what I do is a civil matter. So, we take it with the court of appeals
or through the county. Um, the outcome that I do see are there's no fraud found. So, I find that they are telling the truth. Um, some things just sound outside of a box, but there still no fraud, like no fraud found. Um, there's
an outcome of fraud found. Um, but I also then have to prove intent. If they're intentionally violating the program violate or intentionally violating the program rules, that's a different outcome than unintentionally.
Um, with both of those, I can um do an intentional program violation if I do find intent. Um, that is a civil process I go through. Um, it's a paperwork that they can sign. Um otherwise I have the option um of an ADH an administrative
disqualification hearing. Those hearings are held by DHS judges. Um they then rule on what my my findings if they are um up to par on the rules and regulations or if they feel that my
judgment was wrong. Um so I in that intentional program violation they can I present it to them. they can either sign it, choose a hearing, or choose to not have a hearing and just admit to the facts that I found.
Um, and then I also do work with county attorneys on some cases that in my discretion I feel are legal matters. Um, so person has a history of lying, they have a case where it's absolute.
um it it just seems more of a a legal matter than a civil matter. I have that discretion to work with them. Um so then in review of the cases and the numbers, so my fiscal year is June 30th um 2024
to July 1st of 2025 for Winona County. So the number of cases referred was 41. So in that 41 cases referred, I found a discrepancy in um eight household compositions,
three incomes, four residences, and other 12. So other is everything else that they could lie on. Um no discrepancies found. I found 17 cases out of that 41 where there was absolutely no discrepancies. Um on the case actions that I took,
there was a negative action on 10 applications. So that was stopped immediately at that application stage. Um that gave us a savings of $6,000. So $6,000 that was never given out to a client because it was stopped at the
application stage. Um negative action on open cases was 26. So, 26 open cases where the referral was found. Um, and I took action and that saved 20 $1,15.
Um, and then negative action on reertifications. So, every program has a different reertification period. Some are every six months, some are every in a year. Um, I found four discrepancies with negative actions and that saved
$925. Um, non-administrative disqualification hearing overpayments that were received. Um, so these are sent through for overpayments. Um, how they are collected, I have no idea. Um, that's
beyond my job scope, but um, it's $38,460 that went out for overpayments. I do know that they the client is notified about those overpayments. Beyond that, I'm not quite sure. Um, so administrative disqualification
hearings, I had one client sign. Um, I referred one for a hearing and then the hearing on that one was upheld. Um, so the savings total was $112,120 total for Winona County. Um, overpayment
total was $38,460. Any questions? >> Yeah, Mr. Ward. >> Well, um, thank you for what you do. Um, but the savings I don't think they really are Winona County dollars because a lot of these programs are federal and state programs.
>> Correct. Which is why So I'm grant funded as well. So my my funding for my my job comes from DHS, >> right? Because they're the ones that are writing the >> Correct. >> So which it >> you guys are dispersing the funds, right? So yes.
>> Um but that's that was just for I did the numbers just for Winona County. Okay. >> Um and Winona County clients and um >> I don't appreciate that that you narrowed it down. Um a question then uh if somebody is investigated or found to
have do we stop them from how do we stop them from doing it again? Um, are they totally disallowed from applying for these programs or or what's the penalty for >> So, okay. So, and maybe you don't know and maybe maybe my uh health and human
service like SNAP if if you're screwing around with your SNAP dollars or taking more and doing do you just constantly still get SNAP dollars or do we cut it off at some point? So that administrative disqualification hearing, that penalty can require a one, two, and
10year disqualification period. So that person is no longer qualified to receive that um grant funded program >> program. One, it could be one year, it could be two years, it could be 10 years. Yes. >> Okay. Commissioner Alson,
>> how well known are you in the community >> as far as >> Well, you know, and I appreciate the the comment, Commissioner Ward, but the reality of it is is if it isn't known that somebody's policing this, you know, just the simple fear that somebody's out
there paying attention to this often times stop people from trying to abuse it, >> right? >> Does that make sense? >> It does. Totally makes sense. I'm >> So that's my question. How well known are you in the community? I can tell you that most people do not know my job position. It's not as
>> I'm going to get you a big billboard that says I'm out here. Careful. >> Right. But I will say that every application that is filled out, there are the penalty warnings that are read to the client which says like you can be investigated >> with your picture next to.
>> No, I would. >> And it's no print that nobody ever reads. >> Please no. >> Any other questions? >> Thank you. Yeah. >> How do we stand up comparative to the other counties? >> So I don't comparatively you guys are
more populated. >> Um comparatively I so I do I did bring my full total for um my complete fiscal year. Um so your guys's number was the 100 >> 18
>> 112 >> 112 120. Um the total for my job position for all four counties that complete was 347,396 for the the last fiscal year. Um I don't
really compare as far as county to county because population, you know, I mean we're seeing different trends um in different areas. like last year we saw quite a lot of skimming that
happened. Um it didn't really happen as much over here as it did more towards like Rochester or the cities. So the it's like an eb and flow that I I do see. So >> you don't ask a question and then commissioner
>> so all your cases are referral-based. Um >> yes I can I do not um I'm not allowed to go in and dig into somebody's case. Um that's it's all given to me. >> The four counties are Winona, Wawash, Goodiewu, and >> Houston.
>> Houston. Wonderful. And thank thank you again for what you what you're doing. It sounds like we need more of you. That rate of return in terms of your office, I'm sure. Is it just you or are there other >> It is only me. Yes, >> only you. Yes. >> Yeah. Um that's the inverse of Penny
Wise and Pound Foolish. That was Yeah. We need more of you. Thank you for what you're doing. >> Not a problem. Any other questions? >> DHS needs to prioritize. >> Thanks very much for coming by today. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Keep up the good work. >> So, our next order of business is uh to
receive a presentation and conduct a public hearing on the conditional use permit for Ladle's Orchard. I would like to run this uh just the way that the planning commission does. So, staff is going to give us a presentation first. Then, the petitioners will have an opportunity to speak to us. Then, we
will open the public hearing. and hear from the public. >> Mr. Elsie, >> so it's my understanding the planning commission gave this to us without a conclusion. Is that correct? >> It was a tie vote. >> I vote. So we are here. They basically said, "Hey, come up." Okay. Just wanted to make sure that was clear and that the
public understood why that's here. >> We are We do not always have a public hearing, but because the planning commission did not make a recommendation to us, we are going to try today. Um, so, uh, first order would be for our staff to come give a presentation on
this conditional use permit. >> Thank you. Good morning. >> Morning. >> Um, >> for the record, this is Lou Overhog in our planning department. >> Lou Overhog with the planning department. Um I just have a few I'll just summarize uh the um um the petition
uh quickly um and then um go over the planning commission's discussion and uh then open up for any questions before we move on to the developer and hear from them. Um I believe you received the original packet to the planning commission which
included the staff report um draft findings of fact um and the initial initial submitt um as stated um um the um the cup was noticed
um in four different sections of the ordinance. So you see four different references that just there were four different triggers that required the cup. The uh performance standards that uh are applied to the to the conditional use permit are the same as whether they're in any other location in the
county. Um in this in this location there are steep slopes and bluffs nearby. Um the um the system can't be placed on slopes of greater than 18%. So that's why, you know, they're not on um further on the those steep slopes closer
to the to the bluff. Um there's also a 100 foot setback that applies. So this is also behind that 100 ft setback. Um other constraints in the area, there's a 300t setback from neighboring dwellings. Um there's also a service area that was
a subject of conversation at the planning commission um for Excel. This has to be within the XL service area. Um, my energy is further to the west, which um which keeps the system from being able to be moved further to the
west on the property. Um, we can go into more of that if you'd like. Um, the um the applicants also have some some deeper understanding of, you know, history, different regulations that that are um that could be brought to bear there. And that was all part of the planning commission discussion.
Um also wanted to just let let you know just generally it's a 1.5 megawatt solar um uh community garden um community solar gardens through Excel um are available for subscription to customers.
So that's how those work. the the developer um a private developer develops the the solar array and then private entities can subscribe and then get uh reductions on their energy bills um is how the community
solar program works. Um this is a 1.5 megawatt um um system. Instead of a one megawatt, there are two other systems on the property. Um each one of those is one megawatt. So this is um up to another half megawatt larger on 12 acres
of land. Um um the planning commission uh discussion centered around screening um there was a discussion about financial shity
uh the scenic byway it's located just off of Apple Blossom Drive. Um so there was discussion about potential impacts about that. Um um there was a discussion about uh capacity for um local
um local folks to access um um solar uh after the um uh the larger systems are are are brought online. So um XL has a 8020 percentage um where 80% of the capacity on the line is available for
the larger companies the larger system such as this um and then they keep 20% for local connection um that I believe I I don't have the exact um dates on that but it was um
that was just adopted recently in the last probably four or five years. So systems that when in areas before that that were developed, there's potential that it's that there's greater than 80% that's already been um um that's already been used up on any given feeder line. I
think the developers have a little bit more information on that because they've been through the um um the interconnection agreement process with Excel and have a little bit more information about um um where that capacity is. But my understanding is that there is more capacity on that line
for local private entities um um individual homeowners that might want to develop and put solar panels on their um on their homes. Um so that was a concern of the planning commission that we were we weren't taking up all the capacity on the line with uh with the community solar program and there was still some
left for local homeowners. Um just want to reiterate the township uh was um did uh did the developers did go to the township meeting. Um they discussed it with them. They chose the
township chose not to uh comment. So they forward they they signed the township acknowledgement form but decided not to uh to comment on that either for or against. Um, findings of fact are located on page 162 of your packet.
Um, those are draft findings and they are uh drafted to be in support of the um of the petition. If you were to um decide not to grant the um um the conditional use permit, you would need
to go look at those uh those those findings and change those to to um at least one of them to u um not be in support. Um there are some new materials the um that were in your packet. Um the u
developers had updated their narrative uh based on the planning commission discussion. So, that's an updated narrative from what was in the original packet, and that's what's in your county board um um packet today. Um there's also, I believe, at your desk um um um
some updated maps and um and renderings from the developer. Uh primary primarily looking at um at screening and how things look from County Road One. Um but um it also includes an updated site plan
showing the layout of the um the solar array. Um so I just wanted to bring that to your attention. Um with that I guess if there's questions for staff you can ask now or later. >> Uh Commissioner Sing has questions and then Commissioner Ward will be next.
>> Obviously this is uh a lot of times these things happen. It's kind of a spitball approach to us. You know we you know how do you know what to ask to hear the whole thing. Um I guess the basic question I have is what is different about this project that there's question
in compared to other projects. Can you break that down or narrow that down? >> Yeah, I think that the themes and um discussion that uh occurred at the planning commission meeting was generally the same that we've heard on other um um uh and and Marcia can she's
on the planning commission. She can also kind of talk to that. But um I think it it was similar. I think with this one um it's just that uh as we as we approve those and time goes on, we get more and more solar arrays and people maybe have a little bit more concern as to
especially the um the capacity that's left on the lane on the line. Um so I think that was different. That was a definitely a hangup for um um for one um um negative vote was that he he just wasn't satisfied that um um um with the
data that was presented that we were able to present um that there was uh capacity left over. Um um otherwise I think it was very similar. I mean with this one it is on Apple Blossom Drive so that was a little bit different and it is closer to the
road than the other two uh projects that are on the property. Um, so it's maybe potentially a little bit more visible um from Apple Blossom Drive. Um, so that I think was a difference um with this one as opposed to some others.
>> So the two things that I hear here are and this is I guess we'd have to look at the context of what I'm going to say some of those subsidized solar systems was was the intention to just fill the void. In other words, there's so much capacity, we don't care how you get to
capacity, make it happen. Or was the intention to allow as many people to come into this as possible and limit the capacity of which each person does. That's problem number one that I hear. And then problem number two is that um distance and sight viewing and and
everything else is subjective, right? In other words, what I feel is appropriate might be different than somebody else. We denied somebody up on a bluff. I did not, but others did because we could see the corner of the house two months out of the year. How do we deny somebody a solar field, right? So, it's all
subjective and it's what we it's what a person feels is or isn't. I I could not like you because you wore a blue shirt today. It doesn't mean that you can't wear a blue shirt. So, I see two issues so far you've brought up. One is >> is >> Yes. >> Again, see, it's subjective. Correct.
It's subjective to my opinion. So, um, so at the end of the day, those are the two things that I'm hearing potentially could be different, but this is also why we have to set a bar that says if we allow one, so the next comment I have is is how does this set a new bar different than from what is already allowed?
Because I'm I'm looking for what the difference truly is, you know. >> Yeah, I I think good good question. Um and and it is within the Mississippi River Bluffs Overlay District, which is um that's what that's the area that brings in some of those um those um
those more visual um um what can be seen from Highway 61, those uh um um visual preference uh kind of >> viewshed analysis that we do. Thank you, Dwayne. >> But is it but is that is that a >> was not it was not coming up. So,
continuing on with my questions, but is that so I just look at the facts. Is is is somebody that lives in Whitewater, somebody that lives in Lewon, somebody that lives anywhere else that says I may or may want to look at something, may or may not want to look at something. Does it make a difference if it's in a do we
have statutoily regulated law, a boundary? You've said that over here it's not allowed. Over here it is allowed because of something that exists by law. >> The bluff and steep slopes requirements are the same standard, correct? But the um the overlay district that runs along
Highway 61, it's is one mile from Highway 61 and was really grabbing that great great river road which is a scenic byway >> and the views from that. Um, so that was kind of the the rationale behind that that ordinance and that additional those additional standards.
>> And this falls in that >> and this does fall within that, but it it should be noted that it is on the >> other side of the >> west side and on a different aspect from Highway 61 and the Mississippi River. >> So it can't be seen from the river. >> So it is on the west side of uh like
Apple Blossom Drive. um as opposed to if you were on the east side of Apple Blossom Drive, that would be on an aspect that's that's that's pointed towards the Mississippi River and Highway 61. >> But it still falls within that zone. >> But it does fall within that zone. And that is when you look at the notice,
there are two um um um two noticed um ordinance sections that are from um the Mississippi River Bluffs Overlay District. But those are really just really those are just um um triggers for requiring a cup. >> Um
>> it isn't that statutoily it's not allowed. It's just a >> correct >> click that says we've got to go through another process to allow it. >> Is that correct? Okay. >> Yeah. >> Commissioner Ward. >> Yeah. And maybe I can fill in a little bit because uh the planning discussion had a lot of discussion about this and I
have to do say that um a lot of concern about uh viewshed um and this one is being built closer to the road than any and we've allowed a bunch of them up there and in hindsight would should I have allowed him? Probably not, but I know this board likes solar and to be
perfectly upfront and honest I do have a small solar array in my backyard. I don't think my neighbors can see it. I didn't need a permit. It It's I can turn two light bulbs in my house versus one. Uh and and my children will have to work
with the decommission at some point in time. >> Customer, >> pardon me, >> are you an excellent energy? >> No, I am my energy. I am proud to be a rural cooperative. Um so the the the issue um part of this is that it is being built very close to the road and Apple Blossom Drive is a scenic byways
and I've had many a discussion with the state about scenic byways and I think in hindsight this report was done prior to my even being a commissioner so it was back in the n late 1990s we probably should and working with our comp plan and our zoning ordinance there's certain
areas of this county we probably should have bigger setbacks in my opinion Apple blossom Drive, Whitewater State Park, uh Farmers Park, uh, Apple Apple Blossom Park. Um, maybe we should we really should have higher um setbacks because
number three in the No, number two, I'm sorry. Number two in the um conditions, the use will be sufficiently compatible or separated by distance or screening from adjacent land so that existing properties will not be depreciated in value and there will be no deterrence to
development of vacant land. So that opens up a whole uh quandry and should Apple Blossom be more protected than cornfield out in my you know off of my county road. Um that's something that I think needs to be discussed. Um and part
of it too is at the planning commission you have some real advocates is is is solar gardens are they are they far you know you're putting on farmland now the lidals um unfortunately the orchard has pretty much gone dormant which is unfortunate
um but it still does have viewshed qualities and and appreciation for the neighbors. um it's being built and and part of it too is is this stacking effect. If they had come in with all three of these proposals at one time,
they might have been more scrutinized. So this is the third application for solar on their property and it's the biggest one. The others were one and they're built back off the road to a certain degree. This one is right next to the the possible closest location.
Correct. Now you do have this map the the yellow in the map. Is that the the total uh lidal property or I don't I don't know what the the yellow is >> um that's from the uh EO site plan. Is that correct >> that was just submitted?
>> Yes. Yep. So the the yellow or orange um >> proposed lease >> is the proposed lease area. Yep. >> Okay. So, the way the green grided out is could it be moved to the west to the to the part of that yellow line? >> I I think that's a good question for the
developer, but um that's something that we did talk about in the with the planning commission and um um it does run into the um the service area for XL between XL and and my energy, >> right? But there there's a sticking point. Okay, we have two service areas.
XL is the big boys in the neighborhood and my energy and already by the very broad maps that were provided is XL these are XL they've already built into my energy space without asking permission to my knowledge and well I've
talked to Brian Cranier president CEO of of my energy and they are willing to allow them to build in uh you know to go across the line because it's just it's woods and trees and coyotes and turkeys Um, but if some houses came in, they
would want it understood that the houses would be my energy territory. So, it has been allowed that they could they could overbuild into the my energy territory. Um, and and again, it's this whole stacking. The the planning commission, some members had a real issue with the
stacking. So, and commissioner vaguely, you were concerned a while ago about people who own our farmland. These have already been bought, the existing ones have already been bought and sold. This one's going to be built and I think it was relayed that it's going to be leased to somebody and the company that
developed some doesn't even have a a you know skin in the game on the two that have already been built. There's somebody new that we would deal with. Um, so it's this whole thing of stacking to obtain tax credits to obtain uh different, you know, tax benefits and
then it's going to be leased to somebody else that's going to um so the lids and and I understand they need to make money to pay our property taxes. I absolutely understand that. Um but then if you go on the map, if you go just to the north, there's several other uh very large uh
solar developments that are currently for sale. You can buy them now. And then I think there's more. Isn't there more down in Burns Valley too? There it's showing on this one. Um but there's several in that neighborhood >> just um Yeah. So there's just the two um
that are south of the existing project on Lidell's property. Um there aren't any others further down Burns Valley Road. >> Okay. I'm just trying to pick >> that are large um you know large scale here. So, it it's the idea and the idea is it scenic byways like Commissioner
Elling said, it it's it's discretionary. Um, is it allowed? Uh, it probably should have been reviewed. I mean, our zoning ordinance maybe should have been reviewed in the uh since the scenic Byways and Scenic Byways is going to put more possibly more restrictions on
building in in scenic byways areas. It's undetermined yet. There's going to be a new a new commission for that. Um, >> are there other questions for uh Mr. Overhog? >> No. Okay. Thanks for that presentation.
So, uh, will you be back? Will you be back? Okay. So, this would be the opportunity for the petitioners, the land owners and or the developers. Um, also, did you have a question? >> No, I thought the developers. >> Yeah. So, uh, to share some information with us and also take questions then
from the board. Yep. Hi. >> Could you introduce yourself? Yes, I'm Michael Cathkart. I'm with Sunrise Energy Ventures. I'm joined by Dean Liow. He's our president. Um we represent, we are the owners of Ice House Solar 4, the project company. Um we have been developing this project for
for months now, probably a little over a year. Um we've been working very hard with Lou and staff just to make sure that we are keeping this um within the boundaries of the ordinance. And I think we've done a good job of of doing that. Um when we start by you know first
selecting a site for these developments um a lot of it is looking at Excel's hosting capacity both on the feeder and substation. This community solar program has been around in Minnesota for a while. We've been you know kind of pioneers of it. We've been some of the
first projects brought online. So this is definitely you know kind of our bread and butter space. Um but when we look we're looking at capacity on the substation capacity on the feeder. there's not that many feeders and substations with remaining capacity left. Um so that draws us to locations
like this um where we have to um you know find some property and so you know this this space specifically is a little limited due to the ordinance due to the Mississippi River um a lot of those things the bluffs all that. So, um
this is a a location that we had a land owner um who's also here um that was very willing and and already has two projects. So, they know very well the benefits and the structure of these types of projects. They're very educated. Um and then so we worked hard
to develop this project. We brought it to planning and zoning. Um and it was within the um rules and regulations of all the ordinances. Um after a very good uh planning and zoning meeting, a long
lengthy one. Um a lot of feedback was given to us. I think we've mentioned a lot of it. Um we did our very best to accommodate that feedback. I think even though we were already within the ordinances that have been provided by the county, um we still made some
adjustments to try to improve this project based on the feedback that we were given. Some of those improvements are going to be moving a couple of the panels that were on the northeast corner of our project. We essentially eliminated a row just to do our best to
try to decrease as much as possible while still keeping a project that we can do. um the the the view of the neighbor to the northwest there. Um and then and also by doing so by
removing that road, we also did, you know, decrease the linear footage of the panels that are running along Apple Blossom Drive. Um so that was one thing we did since the last meeting. Um, and then some other things I did, uh, you
know, a couple of the concerns, a lot of it was on just the look of it. Um, you know, people kept on mentioning the fence, the barbed wire, chain linked, high voltage signs kind of all over. Um, you will see in this packet, um, and if you want to see a better image, I I I
may be able to share that. But, um, it kind of shows two fence comparisons. So, most of these projects now are moving towards more of an agricultural fence. Um, in my opinion, um, like we've we've kind of stated it, everything about viewing is subjective, but in my opinion, this is a much better looking
fence. This is not the chain linked industrial, you know, almost like prison yard fence. This is much more agricultural. >> We have a we have a picture of that. >> Yeah, it should be on one of the pages. It's kind of inserted there. >> 174.
Oh, I'm sorry. >> 174. Yeah. If not, um I did send a picture to Lou. Is there any chance to bring >> but anyways it's it's a it's just an agricultural fence. Um so wood post >> the wooden poles. >> Yes, the wooden post. That's it's
sideby-side comparison to show. Um >> and I think another important thing is that these are going to rotate. >> These are Yes, they're going to be trackers. >> We don't have I don't know that we have any of those in Winona. >> They are not single access. They are single axis trackers. >> These are single axis trackers. But I
don't think we've approved any in Winona County that do that. I not to my I don't recall. So I think that's something different too. >> Yeah. I think there might be on the car property if I recall correctly. Essentially if if you look on a map any
of the ones that are east west oriented with the rows those are going to be fixed tilt. >> And then any of the ones that are north south like the one um those are going to be tracking systems.
And so, uh, yeah. Um, anyways, so that was some of the feedback we got was a lot of the viewing. So, tried to eliminate some of the panels along both near the neighbors as well as off of the the Apple Blossom Drive. Another thing is we wanted to and and this is
something that we will need to get fully approved before pulling construction permits is a landscaping plan. Um, that's been communicated to us by Lou. You know, since we submitted the application, we did get some renderings from EO, who's a Minnesota based company
who specializes in a lot of these solar projects, community solar projects. We've worked with them in the past on many projects. Um, they provided some renderings of just some options of what you can do. I think it's important to see in the renderings, a couple things is this project is a little bit low.
It's kind of at if you walk out there, it kind of is this bowl shape. Um, so a lot of it is you're kind of going to be looking out over the project. So their recommendation was some tall grass, some trees. This is all subject to, you know, be final approval, but that was their kind of first rendering of of something
that if you're standing on the road, the visual impact is not going to be great in their opinion and in our opinion. Um, so that was one other thing that we did. And then couple other things I wanted to address to. Um, land owners are here, but uh, I do want to address that, you
know, like, uh, uh, Commissioner Ward had stated, the orchard is no longer functional. It's no longer in operation. Um, a lot of the orchards on this Apple Blossom Drive appear to be like that as well. Um, and so that just, you know,
one thing to state is that, you know, we're not taking these beautiful orchard trees out of operation. Um, and that's kind of been, you know, a lot of these orchards aren't aren't surviving, it sounds like. But anyways, um, one other
thing I wanted to mention as well is just the the capacity concerns because that was a big one. Um, and what I would first want to say is these projects, the project, these community solar garden projects that are
connecting directly with Excel Energy, they're distributed energy projects. All of the energy that's being produced is going onto Excel's existing infrastructure, going to their substation. It's going around where where anyone can use it. Most of the projects that I think people were
mentioning about, you know, on private homes or commercial buildings, most of that is going to be uh behind the meter project where that power stays there. You're using that power. Those projects
really don't have an impact on the hosting capacity that we're looking at. We're looking at the distributed energy hosting capacity. Projects like uh like Commissioner Wards, your your project for example would be behind the meter. You know, you're using the power. Um so
it doesn't go out. So So there's no capacity. >> No, I don't get to use the power. It goes on the grid. >> Oh, yours does go on. >> Yeah, I don't get to use it. >> Got it. Okay. But a lot of the projects you are you are using the power. Um you're not just putting it on the grid. So that's one thing. And then there's the 8020 rule. And another thing is we do know that there's additional
capacity. um Excel reports we are not allowed to share but there's additional capacity uh beyond our project um not including that 8020% rule. Um so those are a couple things I wanted to highlight and then um once again just wanted to kind of mention that you know
we feel like this project we've done um you know we started with a much different site layout. We've worked very hard with Lou and with staff on making sure that this stays within the ordinance, on moving panels, on taking a hit to production, all this kind of stuff. And then even kind of going I
think we did um do a a very good job of trying to take as much of the feedback we got from planning and zoning and improving our project based on that feedback. Um so yeah, if there any other questions or if anyone else >> Commissioner Ward I think has a question.
>> Yeah. So then I'm I'm still a little unclear that I don't know if you saw this the little yellow line was that the original how much have you moved it away from from the Zenkees property line and how much from the county road. >> So So the yellow line is essentially kind of the area that we just gave E to
kind of like this is like draw the setbacks in here. >> Sure. >> So the yellow line isn't too important just from like a usable area um because as you can see it goes a little bit too far west where it goes outside of what we see as a service territory. So that yellow line, if you look at our if you
looked at our plan that we submitted to planning and zoning originally, we had another row of panels north of the northernmost panels. We had two panels up there. So we Yep. We eliminated those two. >> Okay. >> And
>> and that's how many feet? 50 feet, >> you know. Do you know the do you know the >> in between the panels and spacing about 35 >> but but a a run of >> one stack of panels um >> I don't know it's going to be it's going to be more than 30 and 50
>> but it's probably not enough but anyway go ahead at least you you did attempt how about from the road because we're talking a road a major road and we got wind and we got snow and we've got and then we're going to ask you to put all these shrubs and everything. I don't know if it's going to stay back off my road or if it's just going to come up
over the shreds and dump right on my road. So, how far back from >> the road? We kept the same setback as what this the setback of the ordinance. So, we did not we we couldn't move it any farther west off the road. Um we decided that screening would be the
better effort. We do have plenty of room to do tall grass and a row of trees off the road where it's still within the ordinance of of doing screening off the road. Um, and then >> on what side did you remove the row of panels? >> I'm sorry. >> Which direction? Which side?
>> On the very north side, like that northeast kind of corner, >> we we took off uh one row that was on the top. There were a couple panels that kind of reached up there. Yeah. >> And that's where we moved a couple of those panels. So, our setback essentially, I think it was like, you
know, 325 or 350 from the dwelling to the panel and now it's gotten significantly bigger. I think in one of the maps that you have in front of you, they show there's like a little red portion on it. >> Yeah. >> And that's actually kind of measures the 300T setback. So, that gives you idea
that even our fence is is outside of that setback area and a fence isn't considered a structure. Um so so yeah we tried to we you know while while maintaining a project that we can build um that's in
XL service territory that follows all the other ordinance 18% 100 foot bluff road setbacks that was the one area we we you know we tried our best to remove as much as we could from that area. Um and and so
yeah, so that was that was one of the things we did. >> Did you consider uh the other projects have been this was asset to planning um the other projects were one and now you've jumped up to one and a half. Did you consider and I it's amazing what you learn when you AI Google the economics
of solar panels and and what it costs and everything. Um did you contemplate there was a reason you went to one and a half. >> Yes. So, so the big reason is projects used to be capped at one megawatt. This used to be an Excel le community solar
program. >> Now it's a department of commerce. It's called the LMI, low moderate income um affordable community solar program. And so you have to go through commerce approval um along with doing this all with Excel. So you almost have uh um you
know two managers of these projects. Uh but anyways, commerce now allows it allows the size of the project to be five megawatts. Um and so this one we would have loved to do bigger but we have all these you know constraints so
we went with 1.5. Now the problem we have with going backwards and going down to 21. I know that was discussed at planning and zoning is well why can't we just move some here and make it a little smaller? Um there are a few issues with that. one is is just these projects um
you know we're still paying a very hefty interconnection fee. So some of it is just financial feasibility of removing production um the rate that we're getting for that. The bigger one at this point is that for us to get on the agenda with Winona County we have to
have a completed conditional use permit application. we part of that is being actively studied by the utility. So I think you know one of the things we said is we'll get to the point where we have
the first estimated cost from the utility because I think the county for a while they've been seeing these projects that might be buried in the XL Energy queue. they kind of get studied one by one and they might be looking at projects that they're not going to get
built for years type thing, you know, because they're buried in this queue. And so I think the purpose of kind of having a a a point in, you know, where where you have to prove that you're in the Excel Energy study process is is to make sure that the project is
real and that there's a a realistic construction timeline, that it's actually in study, um that there's no projects ahead of it that you're waiting on, that kind of stuff. The position it puts us in is that we have to do the application before we come to you to get land use approval. um our application
with Excel, we typically cannot go smaller than what we've applied for. Um that only happens if Excel says, "Hey, we don't have that capacity. You'll have to go smaller." But if we tried to make it smaller, they would ask us to
completely redo the application process, which we've been doing this study process for, you know, months now. Um yeah, almost since the beginning. Yeah, almost a year now, I would have to say. Where are you in the process? >> So where we are, we're at So with the
study process with Excel, there are three studies. One of them is new for this new LMI program. There's a system impact study. There is a transmission study. There's a feasibility study. Once you complete all those, you have your executable interconnection agreement. We
are finished with the first two studies and almost through the third study. So, I believe in the next two weeks we should be receiving our interconnection agreement um paperwork. >> Yes, Commissioner War and I don't it's
probably more for uh the light. Um >> we can ask them up next. >> Well, and and so a little history is okay again this predates me. It's unfortunate that the apple industry uh is not as strong as it should be, but I drive by an apple orchard down in Dakota
Valley that is thriving. So again, just letting the apple orchard go dormant. I mean, that's a landowner's decision, but there are thriving uh orchards in Winona County. >> And we will have an opportunity to discuss amongst ourselves in the next step. >> Well, who owns so limit yourself to
questions for the front? It's it's part of the history of the decision makingaking, right, is that many years ago, an large apple processing plant was proposed up on Apple Blossom Drive back in the late 90s and Winona County did
not grant it a conditional use permit. >> So, are there any other questions? >> Well, who owns Okay, so you're you're going to do all these plantings and everything, but you're going to sell this. You're going to be gone. Um, I do have some maybe when the titles come up. Who's going to be in charge of keeping
these plants alive? That's an ongoing issue. The one to the north, they've planted, they've replanted. I see you got some more bushes. >> Stop you from making your >> Well, he's he's doing >> I'm just asking for questions now. And we will have a full discussion. >> He's doing the landscape plan. So, is there a guarantee on the landscape plan?
Who's in charge of the landscape? >> We're responsible for maintaining the landscape plan. >> 10 years from now, you're in charge. The >> project company is responsible for maintaining the landscape. If the ownership changes, you sell >> the the project company would still be in charge. Two things. Um what I would
first like to say we have developed projects and sold them. We have owned and operated projects. Um so the the assumption that this is automatically getting sold I don't think is a is a fair assumption. Um the other thing would be that the project company would
be responsible for maintaining that screening plan. that would be a condition of this permit that we're getting. And if we are, you know, I nobody is going to want to put at risk uh a project that we've put so much
investment in and not maintaining uh condition of the cop. That's that's very critical these projects is making sure they're in good standing and not at risk of of >> but has chased developers. So that's just history. >> Exactly. >> Any other questions from commissioners?
If not, would the LES like to speak with us? >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> Thank you. >> And uh please don't leave because we probably have some more questions once we get to our discussion phase. >> I didn't really plan on speaking so I don't have anything prepared, but I did
want to address a few things that >> you introduce yourself for the record. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Kevin Lidle. I'm the president of Lidle's Orchard Incorporated, which is now basically just a field there. There is no orchard any longer. And uh and just to reiterate
a few things, um the main sticking point appears to be that it's on Apple Blossom Drive. Um if I don't know how many people have actually gone by this parcel of land, but the parcel of land is on
the opposite side of the road. It's uh the trees do not blossom any longer. Nobody's trees on that road blossom any longer. The reason they're so pretty down in the valley at um I can't remember the name of the orchard. >> Southwind. >> Southwind. Um is because those are all
low density tree or high density trees, I'm sorry. And they're small and they're easy to manage and they're not uh they're they're not labor intensive. That was our problem. It became so labor intensive to pick the big trees and spray the big trees that we simply
couldn't make money at it. Um, and that's the way of all the orchards basically in that portion of Apple Blossom Drive. People are still coming up to see the scenery, but they're not coming up to see the apple trees. They're coming up to see the view over the over the river, over the lake, and
just generally enjoy the view to the east, not the west. This particular piece of parcel or parcel of land, um, as it goes around that corner, the road is very high. And so just to um
reiterate what Michael said, most likely you're either going to be looking over the solar panels and probably won't see them on that corner at all, or you're going to be looking over other solar panels that are already there as you go down Burns Valley. So one way or
another, you're not really changing the view at all. So in my mind, that's a mood point. Um, the other thing is you said you talked to my energy. >> Is that the other company? I don't even know. >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. Do you have a name?
>> Brian Cranier. He's the CEO, president. It's a rural cooperative. >> And what what's how do you spell the last name? >> Uh, K R A M BR I think. Cranberry. >> It's a K a K, but yeah. >> Okay. Um, it's my understanding and I I
don't know. >> It's K A K R A M and then you know beer like Reverend Beer. >> Okay. It was my understanding that we couldn't move the project to the west because that got into their territory. >> Right. Well, it and it's XL Energy is
doesn't want to go jump through the hoops. CR My energy would would allow him on a letter of he had a name for it. Oh, there'd have to be a process to get there's a process to do it. I think yeah, >> my energy is more than willing to let them encroach the line or come over the
line, but Excel Energy and their massive organization usually is not very responsive. >> Okay. Well, I can't speak to that because I I I don't know. But anyway, that's that's why >> that's why the project has not moved to
the west and is is as close to the road as it as it is. Um, I still don't think that's an issue. Um, but I guess I'm I'd be uh interested in talking with Brian one
way or the other. Um, and and as I said, I don't know how many of you have actually driven by the parcel of land, but it uh it's not going to do much to detract from the scenic value of it. And did
anybody have any other questions for me? >> Any commissioners have questions? Commissioner, >> who who currently owns the other two projects? >> Who owns it? >> Yeah. >> Um, >> you own it or you've sold it? No, I lease it. I lease it to the companies, >> but not this ice house.
>> Yeah. No, it would be a lease. >> Okay. You own the property. >> I own the property. >> And that's why we're doing this is because we have to somehow pay the real estate taxes on the property. >> Owns the solar equipment. >> I'm sorry. >> Ice House owns the solar equipment. I
>> the LLC of that. Yes. >> I thought they sold it. >> Okay. All right. We'd have to check that out. Um Ice House does not own >> Oh, please come. Please come on up. Yeah, the two existing ones. They've already been >> I'm Renee Lidle. Thank you so much. Ice
House does not own the two existing. >> No. Right. Somebody else does. Right. Someone else does. >> Right. But you still own the land. >> We own the land. >> We're merely leasing the land to the company. >> And that's very that's common practice. >> Right. Take you'll be next. Are you done, Commissioner?
>> The land will come back to us at the end of the lease, which is another reason we're doing this. >> Mr. Well, housing I'm sorry. Um, this is nothing personal or anything, but it's our whole process, and I've expressed this with our planning department. This conditional use permit goes to you as
this is a land use. This goes to you. We have to hold you accountable. We can't we really don't hold Ice House accountable. We have if we if we have a problem with the trees dying, which they do, the cars, we've had terrible problem. They planted beautiful trees
and they did not survive. So they had to replant them. So if the the brush and the the Yeah, the brush and the the tree plantings and everything, it's going to come to you. Not we're not going to be contacting Ice House because a conditional use permit goes with the
land, not the not the solar panels. >> I'll be I'll be contacting Ice House, >> right? Well, yes, >> because I'm not going to I'm not going to be there trees. They're they are >> right. There is a command we have with >> but I just want you to be clear that all
of this is that we are working with you. We're not getting caught up with dealing with ICE house. >> We have a rather extensive agreement that stipulates who's responsible. >> Sure. And you should for what >> to protect yourselves and such. But we get caught in this many a time where
they're bought and sold and then we >> staff doesn't know who they're dealing with. So like I said, I just want to say a conditional use permit goes with the land, not the not the project. and and the contract for the plantings is go is in that contract and whoever owns it is
responsible. So if for some reason Ice House would sell it, it's going to be the new owner that is going to be responsible. >> Sell sell the lease. We still >> Okay. Sorry. >> Land remains with us. >> Yes. Right. Yeah. That's what I mean. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Commissioner Els.
>> So, does the new 1.5 megawatt generated tax credit now, do you need to pay a tax on that? One megawatt systems were not taxed in the past. Is that correct? >> I'm sorry. Say that again. >> One megawatt systems developed in the past were not taxed. Correct. Property
tax exempt. >> No, they're No, they're not. They're they're taxed. >> Yep. >> The the system, not the land, the equipment. My understanding is the land is taxed and at commercial rates. And then you're talking about the production credit, right? And >> I'm talking about the value of the solar
panels themselves. >> Like if I build a silo, >> right, >> I get taxed for it. Okay? You build a solar garden, you do not get taxed for that. The land the silo sits, >> we don't we don't own the panels. I what I'm saying is is it generating the tax
value whether it comes from you or comes from this company >> my understanding is the land is revalued as a commercial property and we uh receive that it's like >> doesn't matter the land is valued at x amount >> yes please come up to the podium and
introduce yourself thank you >> hi I'm Dean Lisho uh president of Sunrise Energy regarding uh the tax um uh if you had a one megawatt or less than one megawatt solar farm in the past it was not taxed the the production of the energy wasn't. So that's why you'll
see all those one megawatt plants are really 999.7 which is why >> they were all built at one >> correct now we're moving >> it's taxed >> now it's taxed which should generate a$120. >> Yep. >> Correct. >> Correct. Right. >> Yes. There's taxable income. Correct.
>> Correct. So who pays that tax? uh that the the the solar farm owner pays that tax correct on the production of their energy >> and that goes to the state split 8020 correct and is it on the additional 0.5 or is it on the whole >> not the entire thing once you tip that over you pay that tax. So the question
becomes when we talk about stacking these sites, are they looked at as individuals? >> You know, it's kind of interesting. Um they are looked at as individuals and there have been some uh contests going on where the states and not just
Minnesota tried to include them and say they're all colllocated and therefore they become one. They've not been successful at that yet, but that has been an approach that they've been taking >> because one of the things that we've got to look at is we call these community.
>> I don't benefit from it. >> I don't buy Excel Energy. I think it's just a really nice way to say something when in reality it's you're going to make money, they're going to make money, and somebody else has to look at it and we have to figure out how to deal with
it, right? No different than me building asylum. So at the end of our grain bend. So at the end of the day, you know, that's really what this boils down to is is there a public benefit outside of several individuals that want to profit from this and how do we deal with that?
And if we can say there's truly a community benefit that benefits anybody and everybody in the county, um if that electricity were being sold to everybody in the county, unfortunately that's well fortunately and unfortunately I guess that's not the case here. Um, it's good
to have competition. Um, and then we have to look at, hey, what's the local involvement? Are the people that are benefiting redistributing those funds back to the community or are they out in their big fancy boat doing something else >> somewhere else in some other city? So,
there's a lot of things here that I think, you know, don't always get brought up. And I've gone through this. Something says it might have even been you guys back when I was mayor. And I started asking the questions, you know, decommissioning uh a bond if somebody
walks away and says, "Well, we find out 25 75 years from now uh it's full of toxic mercury and they walk away and now the countyy's stuck holding the bill. They forfeit the land, whatever it might be." So there's a lot of these things that I brought up over time that I still
go back and say, "Hey, uh there's a slight of hand happening this one." So, I know people that have solar companies and that's why I know some of this stuff. Um, there's a slight of hand happening to avoid property taxes and it's the stacking of these projects on a particular people's lands. And so, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of
that. >> Just to clarify, Commissioner Elsing, there's property tax and then there's a production tax credit on the electricity produced and they are two different things. >> There's a third one in there you're missing and the third one is is the infrastructure. So your land has a value, the infrastructure has a value, but the the the the tax credit for solar
is a segregated situation that exists for solar >> when when it goes over one with per personal property tax goes up. Then there's a tax on the on the energy that we have to pay when it goes over one. >> Correct. >> Um and and terms of the stacking, I don't know anyone who stacked it to
avoid the property tax. No disrespect, but if I could build five or 10, I'd build five or 10 all day long instead of one. One's we had to do it. It was five at first when the program came out in Minnesota. That lasted for about two years, then it went back down to one. That lasted for about 10 years. Now it's
anywhere between one, no more than five. Um so the benefits that I that I would just say. So the reason it's called community is kind of a weird name, right? because um you know it's a pretty big pretty big solar garden for and it's just called community solar because the >> sorry low moderate income electricity
isn't getting any cheaper and low people don't pay any less than every other people say >> that's not true so just so just I just want to be clear on that so so when you go through the department of commerce and to get your program approved now um it used to be where where there was just
one tariff rate basically that XL Energy paid you for your power no matter who the subscribers were. Then it started to change. Now there are multiple subscribers. So LMI, if you want to get the most money for your power, you
get low to moderate income households to subscribe. To get them to subscribe, you've got to give them anywhere between 15 and 30% reduction in their power bill. So they benefit. That's the only reason you that's the only way you get
for your power the highest rate. You get about half for commercial. So there are maybe six or eight categories now of subscriber and each of those subscribers also receives a reduction in their bill. That's part of the community solar but it varies. So LMI is the highest
reduction you have to do. So if we want to sell our power for the most amount of money to Excel, we subscribe low to moderate income subscribers, as many as we can get. And so >> how do you promote that? >> There there are literally are firms who do that for a living. That's what they
do is they um accumulate all the subscribers. And so they'll come into the counties, they'll come into the state, they'll do they'll do shows, they'll market, they'll get those LMI subscribers. And we will hire them to do that. Um, and then sometimes you want a big
anchor client or an anchor tenant like a uh a a a constru, you know, like a commercial building or a mall or a hospital because they don't you don't losing them every every year or so. So that's two benefits. Uh there's an
increase in tax that is paid and there's a big increase in the amount we've got to discount the sale of electricity to to the subscribers. So those would be the two things. I just wanted to comment one thing before and on an earlier question and that has to do with the
screening and I get this question all the time like what happens and we're always chasing people down and what what counties don't realize is they have all the power on it. one call to the developer that says we're going to suspend or with or with withdraw your
cup. If you don't solve this problem in a week or a month and then you call Excel and say they're on probation or you suspend it or you're going to suspend, Excel will shut it off and I guarantee you they won't be able to get here. We wouldn't be able to get here fast enough to replant those trees
because you cannot have your power turn. >> I have to ask the staff, is that true? We've chased planters and such loose smiling. >> Maybe not chasing them the right way. Threaten to suspend their cup like that. Send a nasty letter. They'll fix it right away. I guarantee that. >> Ross is there too. Put that in the file.
Then >> call me. I'll tell you how to do it. What kind of letter I don't want to get. did have one more question I wanted to ask you is that or Mike um and it relates to something that commissioner said about uh toxicity of panels and I know we got some information from a
constituent who uh lives near the place. Um >> so I asked this question last night. I know our staff was trying to get to you. Um so there's something our EPA tests the panels to determine if they're hazardous waste or not. It's called the toxicity characteristic leeching procedure. Mhm.
>> Um I wanted to know your packet says that you're going to be using Talison panels and can you provide the TCLP testing document? >> Yeah, we certainly will. No problem. If you respect that a condition of the building permit, we will the when you look at the toxicity and it's very
confusing because there are two big types of panels and one one is called thin film and that thin film so the big company in the US called uh first solar they make thin film and that's very toxic um compared to the the types of panels that we have that are covered with glass will provide that no problem
and I don't have any problem meeting that requirement be that the Talison didn't pass that test somebody else that does >> you guys will commit to using a solar panel >> 100%. Okay, great. Thanks. Yeah. Any other questions from commissioners? >> Uh, Commissioner Vegan, go ahead. >> Um, this is for the Lidells. Um, correct
me if I'm wrong. You live in an Alaska. >> Yes. Okay. Because there is a concern to Commissioner Ward's comment about, you know, absentee land owners. You are not in Winona County. >> You used to be. >> You used to be. >> You used to live there, right? >> I'm just clarifying, but I at the same
>> I personally never lived in Winona County. >> So, I'm just It is kind of for me a gray area. I hear what you're saying. It's a gray area on Alaska is not Chicago or Florida or keeping or Key West etc. So you're still in the area because part of my concern with community wind and
community solar it is supposed to be community based but all these projects were designed to benefit the big boys. You know depreciation tax credits. No one had that tax appetite except for the large >> the monster corporations. That's why hospitals, insurance companies and
others were able to do this. And this I don't think we're there. this is getting better, but this is still not community in terms of decentralized um you know power systems etc. But it's it's moving in the right direction. Um but I just wanted to address that concern because I did some people
contacted me about you are you don't live in the county but you you have lived here and you're just just across the river right now. >> I'm going to let Commissioner Olsson go because he has not had the opportunity to ask a question to speak to. I I just want to make a comment and that it's great that we have all these philosophical
uh questions and concerns. Um but before us is a zoning document and the boundaries of the solar garden that is to our discussion and we have no control over anything else >> also >> just to bring it back home. >> I just want to say that these are the
presentations and a time we ask questions of these individuals. We will be able to have a full discussion once we get through the public hearing. So Commissioner Ward. >> Okay. Um, condition eight is about the financial shy and I guess I need to ask staff. It says the permit E. Now, am I
reading that the permit E is the the Lidols or is it the ice house? Who is who are we referencing the permit E? Because the issue is uh at a big discussion at the planning commission is that uh 50,000 probably isn't going to
be enough to decommission anything in 25 years. So it should be a graduated amount or a different amount or a different methodology for that. >> Yeah. And so the committee the the escrow and the the decommissioning amount takes into account the estimated um recycling cost. So the the cost that
you'll get the the price that you'll get for recycling the panel. So that >> that lessen that decreases the total decommissioning cost. >> Well the assumption it's worth something in 25 years. I'm wondering who we hold responsible. Is it the lids as the
conditional use permit holder or is it Ice House as the developer? Who's the permittee? >> The it's it's both. Um the the the permittee is the the property owner. >> But the contract that we have with for the decommissioning and the escrow is
with the um is with the the solar company. So the company will provide the escrow. We hold the cash escrow over the course of the entire project. We uh can invest that escrow. We can
collect um interest on the escrow. >> Okay. All right. But there was big discussion if that is an appropriate amount. >> Are there any other questions? >> Yeah, the other one nine condition nine. Uh we discussed it. It's still in there. The applicant shall apply for a driveway access permit by Winona County Highway,
but there isn't going to be any access off the county road. It's all off the road. Yeah, they they it shouldn't they actually probably won't need a um a driveway access permit. >> Okay. So, we could that should be a limit. >> You could eliminate if you'd like. >> Okay. All right. Still should >> Anything else? >> If none. Yes.
>> Can I make one com I can I make some comments about our where we live and >> Go ahead. >> Can I do that? Yeah. Go >> ahead. Okay. Um we both grew up in Lac Crescent um Minnesota. So, we are lifetime residents of the area. Um, the property has been in Kevin's family for
hundreds of years. Um, it's very important for us to try and keep that property in our family. Our grown children are very committed to wanting to keep that property. So, over the years, we have been trying to figure out
how can we use that property um to lessen the tax burden for our children and for our grandchildren >> and keep the property. and keep the proud art. So, we have tried different things. Um, this presented it to our to
us and we felt this was a good opportunity for us. So, really we're we're really trying to keep it in our family. Um, and really it's the the property across the road that looks over the the um river valley. Um, again, our
kids are very committed. Um, and we have lived in the area, like I said, for 40 plus years in an Alaska. We are lifetime residents of the Kulie region. So, >> thank you. >> So, thank you. You brought that up. So, how much of the property on the east
side of the road do you own? I unfortunately our computer systems are down. I was going to try and >> Okay. Well, there's a there's a um if you're familiar with the property on the on the east side, the old >> Apple it was a large packing plant. >> Yep. And it did have a homestead on it at one time.
>> Yes. >> Um and that's about 15 acres. >> Okay. >> Okay. That overlooks the river in the in the in Lake on Alaska. >> We also have property a little bit further to the south >> and but it would be east of the road and
that is a small orchard of about 8 acres. >> Yeah. >> Um but that's um no longer producing either and and doesn't really blossom anymore either. Um and um
I guess that's all we have on the east side. >> Okay. All right. Well, you did allude at the public hearing at the planning commission that you may maybe consider developing more land. >> Um that 8 acres um well actually that 8
acres it says eight acres of orchard. There's actually another 40 acres of basically hillside that you can't really use for anything. But but um uh that 8 acres is um pretty nice land and it's and it's
um is adjacent to Cresston Township. >> So >> I don't know what I don't know what will happen to that land. >> Yeah, we have >> but it won't remain orchard. It won't be replanted. >> No. And we we have no plans for >> at this particular point. >> Okay. All right. Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Uh would someone like to make a motion to open a public hearing? So moved. >> Second that. >> That was Commissioner Begley. >> Yep. >> Commissioner Olsson has moved. Commissioner Begley seconded uh opening
a public hearing for this uh conditional news permit. Any further discussion on the public hearing? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. Anyone's opposed? Say nay. >> Okay. Uh if someone is in the audience
and would like to speak to this conditional use permit, uh we will set a timer for two minutes. Please come forward to the podium and uh share your concerns or your support for the project, whichever it is, um with the
county with the county board. >> My name is Gar Zinci. Uh my wife and I live at 32997 County Road 1. Um ours is the house that's uh just adjacent to the Lidle property and um obviously I I respect the Lidol's uh you
know property rights. Uh it's their land. They can uh you know do with it what they what they choose. um to say that and to say that the the view uh would not be affected. Ours ours will be
significantly affected. Uh I understand that I would agree that from uh the Apple Blossom Drive that it probably is not going to be real visible. Um unfortunately our house, our living room and our back deck uh looks out onto this
property and it is kind of a B-shaped property. Um so uh any type of um uh you know plantings or anything are going to be kind of difficult to to shield that from us. Um
they call these solar gardens or solar farms. Uh they're they're pretty industriallooking power plants to me. I don't know that there's anything agricultural or or farm related about it. And I looked this morning on Beacon
and if this one goes through, we'll be surrounded by approximately 40 acres of solar panels within a quarter mile of our house. And I kind of agree with the the stacking uh idea that you know how many of these you put in one here, one
there, and pretty soon you end up with 50 to 100 acres within a very small area. So those are just some of my concerns. Um, you know, I'm not trying to be a bad neighbor, but and I guess the other thing is that I received my
electric bill yesterday and and it's kind of sadly ironic that um we have a renewable energy development cost which is tacked on to our Excel bill and uh so that went up 25% this month uh that that
renewable search charge on there. Uh so we're we're funding this project that is going in our backyard uh that we don't want and it's it's kind of ironic and I I do agree that I I don't think it
really benefits the local community. So thank you. >> Thank you. >> Is there anybody else that would like to share some thoughts with us and this includes people who are online? Um, we'll do our best if you can unmute
yourself uh to try and recognize you and get your comments. >> Heidi is checking right now. >> Great. Thank you, Heidi. I'm going to go slow due to the tech. >> Chair, the individuals do have the ability to unmute if they so choose.
>> Yep. Apparently, you can unmute yourself. If you did, we would try to hear your comments. So, I'm going to ask two more times if there anyone here in the audience that would like to come speak at this public hearing uh for or against the the petition. >> There's no one online. And for the third
and final time, if there's anyone here online that would like to speak at this public hearing regarding this conditional use permit hearing none, would someone like to move to close the public hearing? >> So, moved. I'll second that. >> Olson moves vaguely seconds closing the public hearing. All uh any discussion
hearing? None. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. Anyone's opposed, say nay. The public hearing is closed. So, we have um achieved item 8.2 on our agenda. So, we're going to move on to 8.3, which is where we discuss and
make a decision about approving or denying the conditional use permit for Le's Orchard. >> Well, I'll start. I've said most of what I want to say, but uh we have to deal with the findings of fact and they're not necessarily fact. There's a lot of philosophy and there's a lot of
discretionary um opinions in there, but um uh with uh the Zenis being the closest and the the whole idea is yes, we've approved a number of them in the neighborhood. Is that right or wrong? But had that all come in as one application, I think the neighborhood
would have been much more outspoken about our approving all these uh uh projects in a in a very close neighborhood. So findings of fact number two, the use will sufficiently compatible or separated by distance or screening from adjacent land so that
existing properties will not be depreciated in value and there will be no deterrence to development of vacant land. Well, there was an article I think uh Mrs. Zeni sent something and I know it was a law article and I didn't read all of it, but there are questions about
depreciating value when you build these kind of um it it's not just a small operation. It is like somebody said it looks more like an industrial application of our land. So that one that one's you know that is very very questionable in my opinion. And number three, the structure and site will have
an appearance that will not have an adverse effect upon adjacent resident residential properties. Well, Mr. It's very close to Mr. Zeni and Miss Zenkey's property. It will they they reflect uh I walk around the backside of mine some days and it's bright and it's brilliant
and uh and you can feel the you know the the intensity of it. So, and that's just a small you know homeowner uh operation. So uh number three is is you know will not uh I can't agree that it will not. I it's it's not can I factually say it's
you know 10 degrees hotter or you know 20 degrees the lumens and and things like that. Uh no but um I can't say that it will not. Um so again maybe I'm a hypocrite. I've said I've been a hypocrite in the past. I will always probably be a hypocrite. Um but I can't
support this one. I really had hoped that it would be moved further back. Um, and again, I talked to my energy and they were willing. Um, but it seems like the XL Energy organization is difficult to work with. So, um, if if we could
move it back further, um, uh, I could consider it, but right as it sits, no, I I can't consider it. >> Anyone else? >> Commissioner Elsie. Oh, Commissioner Vley. >> Uh, this is a question for the developers. If they could come forward,
please. I apologize. Um, I know the difficult part is this is it's not a farm. It's an industrial Mr. Zanki is correct. This is not a farm. It's an industrial utility producing electricity. Have there is there anything else that you have done with
other neighbors to mitigate reduce the impact on the neighbors? Sometimes in the past there was also some form of compensation to the neighbors for the impact on their properties and view sheds etc. Is there other things that can be done that haven't and correct me if I'm wrong I apologize if that's
already listed maybe I missed it etc. No, I think we've discussed, you know, increased screening, which um um we're definitely, you know, willing to do. Um I guess where, you know, our kind of original stance on it was that we were
staying to the ordinance of 300 ft structures to dwelling and then we tried to increase that a little bit. So that was, you know, kind of our um attempt at doing a project while while being a good neighbor. Um there are some screening things but I know that just given the
the kind of topography of where we are um as as he said himself that could be difficult to do but uh no we haven't had discussions beyond that. Um, I think one one other question commissioner Ward has pointed out that my energy is willing to consider,
>> but how far >> I think that you had talked about um in either I forgot it was online or the hard copy that um how far would you need to have a delete? >> I I I again in the maps I received they weren't real um you know delineated uh
in feet and such. It was just a map that somebody had drawn. So again that would have to be worked out with my energy but they were willing to to consider it. >> Had you had you talked with my energy about this beyond or >> we have not we have had success doing
this in the past um uh years ago. Um with Excel it has not been something that we feel is is you know people are as open to anymore kind of buying service territory from others or building. Um, and so the direction we've
kind of received from the utility XL is is just, you know, kind of keep it within the service territory. That said, we would love to move this to the west. Um, that is, you know, better land for this type of
build. I mean, we'd love to do that. It's just right now within the rules that we're operating under with Excel, um, it's been communicated that to us that that's not possibility right now. I don't know. I you've had more experience. Bill >> doesn't want to mess with >> I would I would say this would be happy
to have the conversation uh with Excel and uh and the other utility include any one of you that would want to be we just want to know that you know we would do what we can and if we can we will but if we can't um what we have in front of you right now meets every aspect of the
ordinance and so we've tried to keep it that way. Um, but happy to if you want to make that a condition that we have that conversation and at least do our best, we'll be happy to. >> Commissioner Ward, could you figure out like how far you had talked about how
far and and in terms of, you know, return on investment? You would actually prefer to move it farther to the west? >> Uh, makes a lot. >> I don't know if it matters that much to us, but >> it's a little bit better land to the a little flatter you move it to the west, right? Um, so yes, I think we we'd like
to move it a little bit to the west if we can. >> And then obviously it plays a role in the screening cost if it, you know, limits the amount of screening we need. There's also Ryan Cranier's name now. They should make and and Mr. Cranier and I have talked about it briefly and he
indicated that actually one of the the the long narrow one was already over the line, but again that line was uh just a general map so maybe it wasn't. So >> I have a question for staff. Um so if we put two conditions on this project, number one is that the panels need to
pass the TCLP test and number two that this conversation with my energy will occur and if possible the project will be moved. Can we do that? >> Sure. Yeah, absolutely. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> I would be open to those two conditions.
>> One last question. I'm not sure if this is if this is common practice um in solar farms in terms of this is for the developers. I apologize, Luke. Um do you compensate neighbors for the impact on their lands, etc. Is that is that done or is that something that was done in
the past? I know it's done >> just about everything's been done. Yeah. You know, >> I apologize. What I'm asking this is for the this is for the developers. Um um in the past with renewable energy projects sometimes the neighbors were compensated for the impact on their land. So I was
wondering if that has been has that been discussed with the Zenesis at all? >> Uh it it hasn't been discussed. Um just about everything that you can imagine has been done at one point in time to get a project approved. Um we have at times um we have not paid uh necessarily
a compensation because and we've done exhaustive studies. I doubt you're going to find a appraisal that says the value went down. Um, and we can show you all kinds of that. But what we have done is even on a neighbor's property a ways away, uh, is put a barrier, uh, that
that had wasn't even on our parcel, but but blocked that for them. Um, and and accommodated them so they wouldn't be looking at it. Um, and we'd be happy to talk about what might work. Um but you know that's kind of options are open there to try and do what we can do. We
think we already have by moving it down even in a greater distance than the ordinance requires. Um but happy to talk to whomever and see if we can't improve upon that. >> And just to be clear I've not talked with the Zenkees. Um we've actually um though I've traded we've traded
voicemails with with um with Mr. Zenke's wife but they've not asked me this. This is just me from prior experience. Yeah. >> Do you have any other contracts where you pay neighbors because of the impact on their land? >> We do not. >> Like I said, we've done other things to
their land to to put up screening that's not been on our property so that they wouldn't have to look at something, put it there, but we've not paid other neighbors to do that. I I I'm sure it's been done. >> It's definitely been done. I'm not sure if your company had done it. >> Um, Commissioner Ward,
>> um, you intrigued me. Uh, you talked about community good. Is it really good for the community and do people benefit? But Mr. Zeni said Excel Energy, he's paying a a search charge on his bill. This whole thing of of low moderate income uh sub subscribers.
Um how would we make them come in and make this make community members aware? And I I don't know if it's really a good deal or not. I mean, if they're really getting lower rates or not. Um is there an interest for any any action for them to have to pursue? They said you hire a
company to you you indicated you hire a company to come in and >> Yeah, everybody kind of does. You hire a company that comes in and that that's what they do is they secure subscribers. It's their business and and like I said in um in Minnesota right now um it's
it's you get as much LMI as you can. We would estimate we'll have plus 80% alumni subscri or required >> required. So commerce runs this program. It's a requirement on us if we're going to be an LMI community solar project
which is the path forward for this project. we are required to make an a commitment and I believe it is at least 80% LMI or it's something very close to that but I believe that's the threshold and you're required to give a specific discount
um which can like you said it can vary a little bit but the requirement is you know at least 10 maybe 15% but there's the requirements there that you have to do annual auditing with commerce to report all your subscriber information
all the discount rates all that stuff. So it is very much tracked by commerce and if you are out of compliance with that then your project's at jeopardy of being kicked out of the program and and no you know >> well they have to adjust the rate to send to Mr. Zeni as a nonsubscriber.
>> So is your request that they advertise here in the Winona in Winona in the XL energy territory of Winona because that's where it would have. >> Yeah we have a ve you XL has a very narrow band along the river most of most of the county. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> we'll be happy to make that commitment
that we will advertise for subscribers to supply in this county. >> Are you Winon's aware of these programs? I mean, >> yes, I am aware of them, although I do not I do personally don't qualify. >> Okay. Right. I mean, if it's going to be community good, >> it's also difficult because Excel I
realize they're the ones that are easiest to work with with all these renewable energy projects. If it's wind, if it's solar, most people will prefer because XL was forced to do this. >> Long story, right? Um but >> in the last five years, the county and school districts became part of these
projects. I don't know if that's what you call the anchor >> sometimes. Yes. >> Um but then Excel changed the rules in terms of what they're what they're going to pay pay us back. >> Does that affect this project or is this a different >> It's a new program out of >> It's a new it's a completely new
program. uh that the program we're under right now started at the beginning January 1st of 25. >> Okay. >> And it was a big change at the legislature that changed that. And just to comment on the the renewable searchcharge, if you look at Excel's latest report they published in front of
the PUC, they're they love renewable energy. Okay, they were forced to do this particular program, but they're one of the biggest proponents of wind and solar in the country. They're adding nine gaws of solar in Minnesota. That I just saw that report come out last week.
Just then that's how you they pay for it. >> Y >> So >> they were forced to do it, but now they for other reasons >> they had to do this program you're talking about for sure. Yes. >> Right. And they ship it to all these other states that have higher rates. I I just provided Commissioner Vaguely a report of what people in other states
pay for electricity. Well, there is not a industry standard for what impacted neighbors. And again, the Zenis have not asked me this question and it probably won't even matter to them. But part of the reason, for example, is they're going to probably have to make adjustments to their homes because of what they're going to be looking at now.
>> Um, and it's it's not paid from the land owners, it's paid from the developers, etc. as part of the cost with large wind turbine projects that was done often if you would compensate the neighbors for what you've just put up in their >> their backyard so to speak.
>> Well, and and so you the wind, you know, I've got counties in the western that got inundated with wind and they're making millions of dollars off of production tax. >> Makes a ton of money. >> Yeah. And so maybe we should put a production tax on it starting and so that the so all the count there is one
already. It's the point that was Commissioner Elsing's point. Yeah, there is a production tax because it's bigger than one megawatt, >> but I mean the county it doesn't really come into our >> It will be a lot. >> No. >> State most of it unfortunately.
>> Not enough the XL's and our illustrious county attorney worked for the utility companies and how many times public >> Yeah. And how many? And every year they come in and look for a rate increase and they're almost always granted it.
>> Look, look at what the XL Energy president just earned in folks. >> And I know I'm sure I don't >> that's not them either. In your defense, that's not you as well. >> But yes to that. Exactly. >> That's not community. >> Very big.
>> Community benefit. >> You have any more questions? >> Not for you guys. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank Um and uh this question for staff, remind me if we're under a ticking clock in terms of the 60 days, etc. Loop or requirements.
>> Um yeah, and I think we've we've extended it. So you have 60 days, you can extend it another 60 days. Um so yeah, there's no um ultimately we have we have time. I need to talk to someone.
Um, so what the one conversation because I am um I would much rather have this in larger industrial areas, not on in the rural areas. Um, I'm leaning a favor in and supporting it, but I would like to have that conversation take place between the developers, not the land
owners, but the developers and I'm sorry. Go >> has some info. >> Uh, >> please just introduce your Chelsea. >> Absolutely. Um tax Chelsea got property tax info. >> Yes, I do. Um on the auditor treasurer,
uh it was mentioned about if we retain any of that production tax. Um we do the county according to statute does keep uh 20% of wind and solar production tax. >> It's 20%. So is the check in the mail? >> Um do we've already received one?
>> Okay. And how much was that? Um the this particular one is a wind and it's in Udica Township, but the total was um the a production tax was 236340 and of that the county would keep 47268.
I can pass on all of the wind and solar that we sent out this year. >> While you're here, is that property commercially taxed? Some is, some isn't, right? It also has um it also has parcel. Yes, there's >> it's commercial. >> It it has regular property tax and then
wind and solar um production taxes in addition >> for for property tax they pay because it is >> they pay property tax, >> but is it a commercial rate versus a rate? I would have to go check these specific parcels, but all of the wind
and solar um bills we send out has the parcel that they're uh associated with on there. Um so I'd have to go check. I don't I don't know that off the top of my head. >> I've heard it both ways depending on the size. >> So, Commissioner Fley, would you be I
hate to delay this, but would you be willing to accept a condition? I'm proposing two additional conditions. One of them has with the to do with the panels and the other one has to do with having the conversation with my energy. >> I don't part of me wants to add a third
condition in terms of a conversation but it's also an awkward condition is that they would have a conversation with the land owner regarding some kind of compensation. Maybe the zenis aren't even interested in that. I'm not I'm sure if they would be etc because they're going to have to rearrange their >> My concern is that we are already asking them to do a bunch of things that we
have not asked previous gardens to do and um it is a it is a philosophical thing. I mean if my neighbor in Winona puts up something in his backyard that I think is yucky and I have to look at it
that's I don't own that property. So, I am not sure that from a legal perspective, I feel like if that's something we were going to do, we should put that in the zoning ordinance and not just make it up as we're in the middle of a hearing. I think the same thing with Commissioner Ward's conversation
about the scenic byway. fine if that's already in our ordinance and we're asking someone to comply with it. But I think changing the rules once we're like this close to the end of the you know kind of the at granting the permit to then change the rules is really not
fair. Mr. Olson >> just a question for the developer and you're okay with those two extra points? Yes. That were brought up? I'm okay with having the conversation with the >> With that said, I will make a motion uh to adopt the financial facts and approve um the conditional use permit
>> with the additional conditions >> with the additional conditions as mentioned >> the the convers the panels being tested or toxicity >> test and have a discussation with Mr. Kramer of my energy about potentially moving the
>> Okay, question on your toxicity of the panels. What does it have to come? I I don't know what that test is. Does it have to come in as as being non-toxic or what? Is there a ranking or >> maybe Ross could is probably more familiar. I looked at what it was last night. It test a whole lot of different chemicals
>> and it tested for leeching. >> Yeah, there can be you can be testing for um toxicity in multiple different ways. The representations with most of the solar panels are as they sit intact
and then once they're damaged. So you can have different test results based on that. So if you're look you you would be looking at what type of um leeching is occurring when the panels are intact would would I'm assuming that's what you're looking. What would the condition
be though if they are a high you they can't use those panels >> by the EPA and there probably is a fact sheet available. I couldn't find it online. >> It is considered proprietary uh by most of the manufacturers but they they are able to be obtained from the manufacturers.
>> So I'm saying I want one that passes that test. I know that >> so they may have to use different kinds of panels is what you're saying >> because they're going to commit to using one that passes that test. >> Okay. No. Okay. Um just a point of order. I can second a motion and then vote against it. Is that
fair to say? >> You can. Yeah. >> Okay. >> I'll second the motion for discussion to get it on the table. Then I have a I'm going to say two things and they're going to be um contradictory. Commissioner Ward in the past has said and um if you want a view, you should buy the view, right? Um you we at the
same time this isn't the suggestion of compensating neighbors for the impact is not making it up out of thin air. This is a industry. This has been the case for 20 years. Is these larger? Now, is 1.5 considered large? I think it is. Um, they do compensate neighbors for the
impacts on their land. It's not a large compensation, but it's something. So, >> who does? >> Um, the developers. It's part of it's part of what you >> they do right now. Is that what you're asserting? >> And and you have some examples of this. >> I could provide examples. I mean, is it fair to say it's an industry? It's done
in the industry. Um, they do compensate neighbors. So shaking. >> Please come to please come to the podium. >> But is it fair to say that others do it? >> Uh I I would probably say it's fair to say others do it mostly in the wind industry. Uh not so much in the solar and I'm happy to have that conversation
and see if there's something we can work out there. We personally have not done that. I think I mentioned what we have done to neighbors property is to enhance it such that it it it helps with their their view. >> Thank you for that. >> Yeah. >> So that's why I'm that's not coming out
of thin air. I mean I if you need more information I could provide it etc. >> So is it a thing that can be resolved at this meeting today or are you suggesting that we need to table this? >> Is there a way to res there probably isn't a way to resolve it today. I'm thinking out loud. I don't I'm thinking out loud.
Mr. Zeni, are you interested in conversations? If not, don't worry. Then then this could be a mood point, etc. >> More more plantings or visual. I I would be interested in having a conversation with either the the property owner or the developer. Um I guess part of the
complication is that our our property line is is quite close to our home. So anything that we do on our property, we're not going to have a lot of space to do that. Um where their boundary is for the where
the uh solar installation is going to go. Obviously, there's, you know, there's a somewhere around 300 feet there. And so, I guess if um we could work with either the developers or the property owners to
uh put some plantings in there, I'm some trees that are going to, you know, to buffer this. Um, I would be interested in having that conversation with them and and trying to come up with a solution, but it would it would have to be on the property owners. It would have
to be on their property. It can't be on ours because there just isn't enough space there. And we have some mature trees that uh, you know, there's one that probably won't be there too much longer and that's going to even increase the the problem for us, right? >> So, trees in our neighborhood are not
sequoas. >> Please, please. So, so one of the good things is that the property, his property's on the north side, right? >> So, we have to submit a landscaping plan anyway before we get a building permit to get approved. And, and we're talking about the landscaping along the the the road, the scenic road. We can add to
that landscaping uh along this gentleman's home. And we don't have to limit the height because it's not going to block the sun. So, we can put it that'll grow to be 30 feet tall, whatever we'd like. We could we'd agree to include that section in the screening
plan that then has to come back and get approved by you all. >> Thank you. >> I just like to say one thing as far as this the screening and and everything else. I mean that's that's between them. Y
>> um but as far as compensating somebody for for um uh the depreciation or whatever to their land and this is no insult to G me
not discuss it's all it's all me it's all me so directed at me >> okay I just think he has there's one person that objects to this project okay he writes the letter he comes to the meeting he gets compensated for somehow that just doesn't seem right as
a process and I'm just pointing that out to the board for future um consideration of a CPU because if I were well if if I find out that he's going to get compensated for it the next time
somebody does something next to me I'm going to complain and ask for compensation for it. I don't think that's a good practice to start. >> I hear you. Um, very valid point. And this is only a practice done with large renewable energy projects. If it was someone's barn or um a grain bin, that
does not apply, etc. That's that's why this is an industry practice and with a larger renewable energy. >> No, but what we're asking for is a is a a um conditional use permit. >> Right. >> Right. I mean, and there's a process for
getting a continuous use or whatever the term is. >> Yeah. Um, and I don't think you want to set a precedent where um you you tell somebody, well, in order to get your permit, you got to pay this guy off. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I >> that's just my opinion.
>> I would just share that I expressed already. My concern is changing the goalpost in the middle of the deal and not having this in ordinance before. >> So, the what the developer just said is possible in terms of the screening that it could be could be added to that. >> Okay. >> Okay.
Commissioner, >> with your comment of not changing the rules, which I totally understand, but I think with the comp plan discussion and future, I think we definitely need to look at particular areas within Winona
County of changing. And I think having been a member of the planning commission and this board for many years, I I failed. Um, it just didn't come up. We've allow allowed a lot of houses to be built, but then we've restricted some places. So, I think it's an area that we need to look at as other areas in Winona
County as having higher standards because we could put a feed lot there and if I was talking about a hog operation, I think this board would have a whole different attitude about putting something that close to a neighbor. >> No, you met the requirements. >> I think your comments and the comments of Mr. Potter at the planning commission
about a preference for small uh solar imple installations. Yep. >> Also, if that's a thing that we want to use as a criteria, I think that that that should somehow be codified in the zoning ordinance. >> Yep. >> Any further discussion?
So, there is a motion on the table uh made by Commissioner Olsson, seconded by Commissioner Vagely um to approve the conditional use permit for Lidle's Orchard with some additional um conditions. Uh is there any further discussion? Um, we didn't address the
the bond. We've got it locked in at 50. Is is the board that's a that is a condition. Is the board okay with that? >> I think again it's what we've done with previous gardens. It's more burdensome than I think some counties do because
some counties just require um a statement. We actually make them give us the money in escrow as opposed to a bond. Mr. Alson, um this is if you want to continue that conversation. I guess just this is just my thoughts in this whole
situation. It's this is a tough area for me. Um I I'll abstain from the vote if you're going to take a vote only simply because I want to talk to some of the other planning commission boards and try to or members to try to get a better idea of why there was opposition or or
support for this. It's it's a the thing I this is not a personal thing to any of our residents here in Winona County. The bigger question that I have is we've set a precedent I think a little bit on a runaway train and I go back to the
original scope of what these were supposed to be and was the idea to allow a commercialized sector to come in and find the legal ways to do this loopholes whatever however you want to look at it
uh to take uh rural land and really industrialize it especially um without adjusting the tax base. I just looked up the two uh wind towers on Kzer's farm and they are still listed as agriculture. They are not listed as commercial. This property is listed as
agriculture. It's not listed as commercial. There is a commercial sector but it's R3. It's not commercial land. So, it's still considered agriculture. So really this is a slight of hand that does not generate a tax base to building very expensive projects um unless they
meet some sort of minimum criteria now which is anything over 1 megawatt. I don't know if this was ever the idea for these and again I want people to be able to do what they need to be able to do on their land. So the the the smartest thing I can say is that I don't have all
the answers, but I would like to talk to um reading this coming up in the packet. Um I wanted to go through this. Uh I I saw it was on the agenda that uh we were going to potentially make a decision today, but uh I kind of from the very getgo said I unless there's something
glaring that I'm not seeing, I would have a hard time making a decision until I talked to some of the planning members. I respect their opinion. That's why we put them in that position. And um so I kind of want to get some more information. So I I my bigger fear is that we are setting precedent for a
runaway train that I'm not sure down the road we're going to be able to shut that thing off. And so it's very difficult for me to vote for against something because this could come into a very sensitive area coming up and that's much more sensitive than what this is. and
all of a sudden we h we're forced to push this through because of precedent we've set in other locations based on subjective measures. That's the problem. I don't think we've got a system put into place that truly defines some of these findings of facts beyond
speculation and it's it's opinion based and to a certain extent. So again, we go back to what Commissioner Meyer said, you know, can we can we look at what the scope of solar systems in our county look like and are we going to allow them
to be an industrialized process um or are we going to allow them to be I mean a homeowner type process. I I you know, a lot of these are out there. My my brother has a small solar system. My friend owns a solar business. I'm not against solar. It's that's not the
point. The point is is I'm not sure we have a real defined system to deal with these scenarios. So I want to go back and for me personally I want to go back and talk to some of the planning commission. So obviously I can't stop a vote but I am going to abstain. >> So I am trying to look at Lidle's tax
statement for 2025. Beacon says that their property, which currently has two commercial solar gardens on it, says it is rural vacant land and 3A commercial land and building. So I think some
>> look at the tax below it. >> It's it's based on >> reversal of it is so then I brought up statement >> and I'm not here to argue that situation. And it's just it's again it's a it's a bit of a slight of hand that's allowing industrialized
situation. I like I said if I put up a building, if I put up a grain bend, if I change what it is that I'm doing on anything, my taxes go up. >> Yeah. And I I mean I that comment comes from I had a conversation with Andy Cronabush about the taxing of it can which he was familiar with from having
it on his land. Anyway, so >> y >> uh any further discussion? So right here zoning description agriculture resource conservation that is the zoning official legal zoning description of that property for vital's orchard. It is it might have a commercial land building
but it is zoned as agriculture. >> So the property classification on the tax statement says agricultural non HSTD whatever that stands for homestead. Okay homestead and a nonhold and then commercial preferential. So part of it
is being taxed at commercial rate. Okay. Further discussion. What the motion on the table is to approve the conditional use permit. Um all those in favor please signify by saying I. >> I. >> And those who are opposed please signify
by saying nay. >> And uh we record that commissioner is abstained. So, the uh the conditional use permit is approved >> with the two additional conditions. >> Yep. With the additionals. Um, do I need to read any statement like they do at
the planning commission meetings? >> No, it's in the wreck. I don't see Oh, it's in the verbiage, I think, isn't it? >> Thanks. I think what you're referring to is like variances because their decision is final too and they an app an agreed party has the ability to appeal that in
district court and we formally have not done that with conditional use permits. However, there is a mechanism or a vehicle for an agreed party or parties to to challenge that in district court as well. >> Thank you.
>> Thanks everybody. Appreciate it. >> Thank you everyone's time. All right. The next item on our agenda uh is let's see >> formally 710 >> 710 um which was moved to be 8.4
um approve purchase for exa grid solution to maintain data backups. Mr. Elsing, you asked for this to be pulled. Maybe you want to start the conversation. >> I just want to bring up what we talked about before. Um, I need your help with this. What can I
talk about? >> Very limited. >> Okay. >> I think here's a way to phrase this. Are we certain this is the best way to go or should we explore other options? Is that a fair that's a fair statement >> because we got recommendation this
morning. What I would ask is that the board table this and let me go back >> where I was going with it. Exactly that. Could we take a twoe recess? This doesn't expire between now and the next meeting. Correct. Right. >> No. >> So, could you do that? Do you have time
to do that? >> I will make time to do that. >> I think it's important. >> Is that a motion, Chris? >> I'm gonna I'm gonna make a motion to table this. There's a second to that. >> I'll second. Yeah, absolutely. >> And we'll come back to it. Thank you. Yep. >> I know you don't need another thing, but I think it's pretty crucial. So, time.
>> I understand. Thank you. >> Okay. So, Commissioner Elsie has moved and Commissioner Ward has seconded tableabling what was uh previously item 7.10 and is now 8.4. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please
signify by saying I. I. >> If anyone's opposed, say nay. >> Motion carries. >> Thank you. >> Item 8.5. >> It used to be 7.7. approve utilization of reserves for payment of the resurfacing at the Nodine highway shop. Mr. Ward, you asked for this to be
poked. >> Yeah. And I I >> uh Erin, would you be able to >> I don't think Mr. Kramer is through a couple times, but I'm not sure is it necessary? Well, that's just and it it's not it's it's a small dollar amount, but
when I drive over my roads in my neighborhood and they're falling apart and I'm contemplating fixing up a parking lot by a highway shop, my constituents should hang me. They really should. I mean, they would be so livid that you're spending money on paving
this parking lot and our roads are falling to pieces. Now, unfortunately, the it's estimated, I think, $40,000. I can't fix much road, but there's principles involved. I am not going to spend money on fixing a parking lot road out in a rural landscape when my roads
are in horrendous shape. So, I can't support it at all. >> The only question I have is um again, I own the property right next to the Udica Township and you know, we just got to grab a lot like most other places. Is it is it really necessary to be tred? That
whole whole area need to be tarred. you know, I mean, it's I'm just trying to figure out what the necessity is of it. >> So, when we decided if it should be paved or not, gravel was, you know, brought up. >> Uh, one thing we try to reduce is the
slip trips and falls and everything else. Gravel parking lot is, >> um, I say sometimes harder to plow, depending if it's frozen, you know, springfall. Um just the truck traffic that we get through there with our loaded uh dump trucks going and out the
loaders turning. Um and I guess for the cost we decided, you know, first we looked at patching some of the potholes to just try to get through and it's where do you start and stop at that point? Um there's so many potholes in that parking lot. Uh
where do you start and stop? But we did look at gravel just turning it to gravel. with a two uh 2-in mill and overlay, you're actually saving the pavement that exists by >> saving it underneath milling down to. And the contractor that we did hire is
same one that's doing I90 Hill. >> So, they're going to be >> mobilized in that area >> too for parking. >> That we we're saving money there. We're going to skip on the >> stripes for the Yes. And then and >> let's go do that at night.
>> Is this parking area adjacent right up adjacent to the building? >> Yes. >> So it would help in the handicapped accessibility. >> Yes. >> Paved surface. >> Like I said, it is paved now. It's just it was original to the building. So the pavement is about 34 years old right now.
>> How big is that? It says 2,000 square yards square yards of material or 2,000 square yards of surface area. >> Surface area. >> Okay. What is that roughly >> for material? >> Yeah. What what how big is that? 60 by >> I don't have that >> by three 60,000 >> I know I had a beacon thing but it was
on the network and >> is my math right 60,000 square feet >> right 2,000 square yards 2,000 * 3 3 foot in the yard 3 * 3 is 900 >> the whole property the side well you're saying it
is not included and you just mentioned this the trucks going in and out they go in and out of >> so when you come through the gate to the building that's pretty much the area that's getting done. >> So the backside which we call the backside but the salt shed that is not in this plan
>> not getting done. And did you just replace that whole gate section? Is that a new piece or did you >> square feet times 200? >> Yeah, that wasn't cheap either. >> Nope. Insurance well we had a deductible but the insurance paid the rest. >> So if you don't mill and overlay it then
the surface will continue to deteriorate and you'll have to replace the whole lot. So >> correct sound foolish to turn it belt gravel because it turns mushy and I guess one slip trip or fall. Is that $40,000? I don't
>> Mr. Regular. >> Um I'll move to approve what had been formerly item 7.7. Well second and I don't include a motion to hang Commissioner Ward. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well they should. our roads are falling apart and when we keep doing
county stuff I I just it really irks constituents. >> Is it I mean is this >> we need to do this now? It's that dire. I mean I've drove by there. It's not >> guys in I90. >> That's what I'm trying to figure out. So it's 18,000 square feet.
>> So it's costing us $222 a square foot. >> I mean I can tell you it was on the capital prime last year and we didn't do it because we were trying. >> Yeah. But I own enough parking lots that things don't >> they've been asking for a while. >> Well, they don't go to hell that hard. You know, it doesn't one year on a
taller situation unless it's high traffic. >> With our unknown upcoming expenditures, I question too the awarding of the two snowplow trucks. Um, yeah, we did a thing a while ago we didn't want to get behind, but again, as a individual, do
you go out and buy a new car when you got a heater that's going crappy and stuff like that? So, I mean to prioritize where our spending is is going is I guess yeah, it's in a fund, but again, those fund dollars can be used for a lot of different things. And I guess it's it's a low priority in my
in my list >> to pave a parking lot. >> For clarification, the request is to use reserves because it was in the 2025 budget, but it did not get complete. So, it went back to reserves. It's not allocated anywhere. We would be using
reserve funds. So just for clarification, >> still taxpayer dollars behind me. >> I understand. But I just wanted to be clear about what was really being requested. >> Well, part of the reason that it's on the agenda is that you had said anytime you spend reserves now, he will bring it to us so that we'll get to have this conversation. But
>> y >> So So if the contractor didn't have family um illness in the family, the project would have been completed last year and we wouldn't even be here because it was approved in >> because they're working on I90. >> Yes, we've >> How much? Um, we're actually getting I
don't know what the dollar amount was, but we're gonna actually more surface area. A better a better project or a better product. >> Are they using our property to store some of their stuff? >> They're going to put a extra >> They're going to put a job trailer on our parking lot. >> Yeah. So, that might
>> top you put a trailer and if they drop it wrong or they don't hook it up right, have you ever seen a tongue tear out a chunk of concrete and such? Black top. It's >> $222 a square foot, which >> is that measurable? Is that good? >> Not a bad deal.
>> Okay. >> Are we ready to vote, guys? >> Further discussion hear? None. All those in favor of uh proven use of reserves for payment for pavement resurfacing at the Notane Highway shop. Please signify by saying I. I. >> Anyone's opposed to saying nay.
>> Nay. >> Okay, Marca. So, it's four to one. Thank you. >> Item 7.8, 8, which is now 8.6, approve the 2025 to 2027 supervisors labor agreement. Commissioner Ward.
>> Um, and Todd is here and I know he sent me a bunch of emails and everything. There was just so people realize there were a number of market adjustments and then cost of living and grids. So, one thing I would like in any um and I'm
just one, but in any future contracts, I guess I would like to know what the dollar impact is of that contract. You know, we we use a percentage. Oh, it's a 3%, but do we really realize how much 3% is? And it just gives me a a better uh I guess it gives me a worse feeling the
more money I'm spending. So, um and again, uh Todd assured me he is working on a pay for performance system. Uh, but this one isn't there yet, so I will not support the um labor agreement. >> Motion to approve.
>> I'll sec I'll second that. >> Commissioner Olsen moves. Commissioner Vley seconds approval of the 25 to 27 supervisors labor agreement. Do we have any more discussion? Commissioner Elsing? >> Yep. I'm I'm getting behind this whole paper performance deal. I think we need
to as we see raising rising expenses. So, I won't support it till that comes into play, too. Any others? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. >> And those who are opposed, signify by saying nay. Nay. >> Thank you. Motion carries. All right. We
are now on to committee reports and communications. And >> thank you, Erin. >> Uh, Commissioner Vaguely, you wanted to make a comment. >> Um, I won't say too much, but I think Commissioner Myra, you might say more. Um, I just want to about this particular issue. I just want to thank
>> She isn't on the agenda. >> I just want to thank >> actually I do have some >> I just want to thank Governor Walsh uh for allocating resources. >> I wasn't going to talk about this. >> Okay. Well, well then I'll say more. I want to thank the governor for sending I believe it's called the cyber crimes
unit part of the Minnesota National Guard because when uh Commissioner Meer and I stopped by on Saturday um to give them some donuts >> with donuts >> with donuts. I thought it was going to be four or five people, but there were almost 20. Um, and they're still here and they work very long hours because
this the um I know I can't say too much. I just we need more help because we're just one solitary county. So, we need more help. So, I'm very grateful that anyone would send more help. That's all I want to say. I I have to be careful about >> And you can contribute by giving them
Monster energy drinks. That's what they like. >> They consume copious amounts of caffeine. So they are computer wizes that thus their diet. That's it. >> That's it. >> Commissioner Elsing. >> Oh, just a reminder, we're almost in that planning season. I think you'll
probably start to see a few roll here in the next few weeks. So just take a little extra time uh driving up and down the road. Stay patient as farmers get back out in the fields and uh you'll get there eventually. So >> thank you, Commissioner Ward. Um yes,
the other night um assistant county attorney uh was there the Pwick Historic Mill and it is a unique feature in Winona County. So it from a tourism standpoint um if you got relatives coming in from out of town. It is a it
is a historic uh mill. It is open on the weekends during the summer hours. Now did you get elected president of the association? >> I did. >> Okay. All right. So we have >> a president and treasure. >> Ah okay. All right. Um but it is unique in that it is privately owned. Um but they've been doing a tremendous job of
getting some and applying for some grants um to to make that um that work. Um because work needs to be done on the uh dam that was done back in the late 90s I think it was. And it that is a huge watershed the whole Pwick area and
it's a critical part of it. Um but uh and they're having a if anybody really uh if you want to kind of see it for free you can go help with the cleanup. They do a uh a cleanup April 26, a Sunday from uh noon to 4, I think it is. Um but it is a pretty uh landmark in
Winona County. So I would I would suggest you take your friends, neighbors, and enemies that are visiting and have take them through a tour. >> Thank you. >> Uh two things. The uh project finds fundraiser is on May 31st this year.
It's a trip to Polynesia in your mind and with dancing. Um, and Commissioner Vegley and I are going to be sponsoring a table. Um, and there are six seats at a table. So, if anyone else is interested in uh joining us in sponsoring this table and coming to the
dinner, um, let me know. Uh, so the Micah board meeting was last week. Commissioner Ward attended on Zoom and I wanted to give you just a few updates. So, uh, we did have one of the highest levy increases in the state last year.
Nonetheless, we are not in any higher position than we were before, which is to say there are three counties only in the state that have a lower per capita levy. We uh didn't lose our position as one of the lowest cap uh taxing counties in the state. Um the governor's budget
came out and he is proposing a backfill on line 50 of his budget for the 800,000 that SNAP uh benefits and administration are going to cost us as a result of HR1. Um I did reach out to uh our local
delegation. Um Representative Rinsky told me that he will support this funding. He also told me he will support the other two things I'm going to tell you. Uh we got kind of a backstory on a revision to the act and I it didn't move out of committee but it is apparently
not dead. It has bipartisan support and it has bills in both houses. There was some kind of partisan bickering about what was going to be in the bill. Um so I think there is still hope that we will get some relief for uh that unfunded mandate. Um the committee that's looking
for the 75 million in savings in health and human services is now working with uh lawyers in the Senate to craft the language to move that forward. And if that happens, that would be great. Uh because potentially that won't be shifted on to us. And um I think that's
it. >> Actually, Commissioner Mark, can I um I see that Miss and Miss Anderson, right? Correct. I just want to thank her again for what she did and for coming down um because we people need to have trust in government. So we need to have that kind of oversight and review at the county
level, the state level because Minnesota does have a problem with fraud. That needs to be said loud and loud and clear. We also have problem at the federal level. That's why we should not be firing inspector generals, which we do too often is fire inspector generals who are our um quality control people.
But um and also the audience mentioned that they couldn't hear me. Maybe it was just me. Ross, if it's okay, can you hear me? Okay. Now, can you hear Commissioner Meyer? Okay. Okay. So, I just want to make sure if maybe it was just the fact that I had it too far away to make sure people could hear us. >> We have dead spots because people do
routinely complain about this room. So, >> okay. >> Yeah. >> I think people too. >> Oh, I >> Fair enough. Fair enough. >> Hanging Commissioner Ward. They're >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Teenagers every day. Is anyone interested in adjourning?
>> Second. >> Okay, I'm going to give it to Commissioner Ward. So, Commissioner Elsing moves. Commissioner Ward seconds adjournment of this meeting. >> Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. >> We are adjourned. >> Take five. >> Have a break. Yeah, but we do have to keep working. >> Yes,
>> we have a uh budget working session which >> and committee of the board. >> Committee of the board. >> Oh, yeah. committee of the board for and then we >> and there is another meeting scheduled in here at noon. >> Oh, and then we got highway at 1:30. >> What's the additional movie uh meeting?
>> Um that is with um a different group. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Thank goodness. But I I had >> a proposal of >> well just make just kind of a quick background >> for the Russ planning and enrollmental services
director. Um the parks and environment committee had been working to update their kind of their mission statements and operational guidelines. Um the parks and environment committee did come out of the solid waste advisory committee. It's it's been about 15 years now since
they uh since its operating guidelines had been established. So they were interested in in uh reworking uh some of the language. So we just wanted to bring that before you here. Um vision and mission statements um looking for any
input that the board may have uh on on those. uh the the committee had worked with the existing statements and made some modifications. um scope of scope of the work. Um is
also an area that they had gone through. Um what what we can do is if the board wants to take some additional time to look this over, we would bring this back to consent business or you could uh send communications uh through the through
the network and we can rework it and then bring it back into the uh into consent business in the future. But we just wanted to give you the opportunity see if you had any questions. Uh sections nine and 10 are newer areas uh
addressing member responsibilities and and the ability to set up some task force operations where they kind of mobilize some volunteer work. Um we can go into this in more detail or if you want to move on to the budget working session, we can we can bring
this back. I know your morning's been long. So, >> um I want to thank um the staff and also the members of the committee who worked on this. It was time to review it. It was time to update it. Um there are discussions at the comp plan meeting two
weeks ago. We had a short discussion about not short mediums discussion about looking at creating like friends of groups um private groups, friends of farmers park which somewhat already exists, friends of um Apple Blossom which does exist informally and etc. So,
but I'm looking I think this is there there aren't big changes to it. It's just updating and using more modern language in some cases >> artic articulating things that just had not really been uh were kind of implicit in the in the operations but had not been spelled out.
>> Yep. >> I would be okay with adding it to a future consent agenda. >> A redline document. So, what did they change? I mean, did we have this document before? >> That wasn't >> it was it was actually a pretty peacemeal document. it it was uh it was almost a back and napkin uh type
development back in 2011. So it as I said it came out of the solid waste advisory committee which was not a standing committee. It was convened as necessary for solid waste issues and then it was modified into the parks and environment committee. >> I think what I think Marsh is asking for could could you include a copy that in
terms of the revisions >> but the change what do we change a document this long in detailed for an advisory committee makes me very nervous. What are they looking to do and what do they want? I mean, it looks I mean, do they even want >> a lot of this is when do they meet? >> Yeah, I know. But it just it's okay.
It's overwhelming this document for advisory committee. >> Yeah, we we uh >> you want levy authority. Is that hidden in you something? >> Nothing. Nothing hidden in there. Essentially, it's it's the the committee was seeking more feedback from the board
in defining its role. What is it that you're looking for the committee to do? where what areas does it have uh you know we've defined for the committee the uh that right now the subject matters to be looked at or have to be within the
purview of planning and environmental services um we can't go on into areas that we really the department does not really have a role >> could it be brought back with like the >> yeah I don't know shown >> strict strikethroughs etc additions
>> major change yeah what's the major change >> I can the the original agenda had the some of the original documents and those kind of got locked up again. So I had those documents were there but they got >> if you get them back I mean
>> and it's like I said it's it's a it's a synthesis of a lot of of a lot of old documents a lot of board old board meeting minutes things of that nature but we'll we'll get those reassembled and >> yeah and and there's not this is not urgent time sensitive is it? >> No thank you. you would you like to
bring back to another committee of the board for discussion or do you >> does anyone have recommendations based on reading this? >> Well, okay. So, here's a question. You say it came out of solid waste. So, is this group going to review the blue cart bin contract? >> The recycling. Is that part of what this group would do? Look at the recycling
program. >> They they could because we're kind of under the timeline uh or kind of under the gun. We've had to back up the we'd hoped to have the RFP back to you >> uh but it keeps getting locked up. So, but I'm just asking is that something
this group would would look at. I mean, being that it can't it's parks and environment. It >> definitely it's anything within the missions of the of the uh of the department and whatever the board would like. Uh they are they are they are predominantly parks focused. That that
seems to be their primary area of interest. Um but uh defining that role for them I think is is kind of the goal of bringing this forward to you. >> Sure. >> Environment. Yeah. Parks and environment. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. >> On a future consent item. >> A future meeting when we can give a little more specifics. >> Thank you, Ross. >> Thank you, Ross. >> Thank you. Okay. Committee on the board has no further business unless somebody has something they want to do. I'm going to move to I'm just gonna
adjourn the committee of the board and then I'm going to convene a budget working session. >> All right, commissioners. So, uh, save the best for last. Uh, so asking to discuss the over 65 program and the Blue
Cross Blue Shield contract. Um, Jill is here to assist in the conversation. So, if you recall, we did cover this at our last working session. Um, and kind of in the the midst of everything that we've been through in the last week or so, um,
given the totality of the situation, we felt it was important to have additional conversation with the the board and hopefully obtain some direction. Jill, >> thank you. Um, so this is a really to obtain and maintain mandated service
compliance and that is uh for the over 65 program. And at this point, we are in a situation where we have a wait list for our over 65 program of 50 individuals and it's probably growing as
we speak. Um, we have for under 65 100 individuals on the wait list and we have individuals who have waited more than 6 months which puts us out of compliance in that we're supposed to be responding within 20 business days of these
referrals and we're not able to. Um, our staffing is not sufficient to meet the need. >> Jill, before you go, can you give me example? What are they waiting for? What what is it they're that we're not doing? like they're not getting medical services. >> Yes. >> I keep telling.
>> Yeah. So, basically there are folks that are over the age of 65 that have needs whether it be going into assisted living, getting supports in other environments, enabling them to stay in their homes. Others are going to nursing home care, a variety of things. And we
have received calls that families who may even be eligible who and their families are paying for the $2,000 to $2,500 a month because they can't. The um the people can't and it's a really
difficult situation for our employees to continue to not be able to serve for these mandated folks. >> It's not trying to get a dental appointment, trying to get an eye appointment or that type thing. any of the state services >> any of the state services and when I to be honest with you one of the biggest
struggles that I have with these weight lists is as a person in this profession I think of the developmental needs the under under 65 group includes children with devel you know so we are in a situation where we're not able to serve
people not able to assess in a timely way and when I think about children's needs and developmental delays It's only going to complicate things the more we are not on time to serve. And so for me,
it's critical in this profession that we be able to do so in a way that meets the need. And this is a way that right now we are funding as a county putting levy tax dollars toward a private insurance
portion that is not mandated. And so I am proposing to move forward and bring it to the board and ask the question, can we end the contract with Blue Cross Blue Shield of Minnesota? I've discussed this with the staff. They are to the
point that they are so pressed that they would rather have us transition so that people can be served than keep their same jobs. And so this is a really difficult situation that I think warrants some attention quickly.
>> Why can't Why isn't Blue Cross Blue Shield meeting the need? >> We have a contract with >> We have a contract with them. It's in our contract to serve the people that they refer and in fact what happens is >> why do if they're not >> we don't have >> we don't have we don't have enough staff to serve them.
>> Blue Cross Blue Shield. >> That's what I'm proposing. >> Here's how I tell me if I'm wrong. Okay, hold up, hold >> we have we have a long wait list for people needing to be assessed for services, right? And in order to fix
that, the suggestion is that we need to hire two or three addition, >> right? >> We do it in house. We take it back in house, >> right? Instead of that to pay for rather than just hiring two new people to meet that need, staff is proposing that we drop doing casework for Blue Cross Blue
Shield and use the savings and the staff that deal with that to deal with our statutory requirements to do assessments. >> But why are we doing the paperwork for Blue Cross Blue Shield? >> Because we have a contract with them and they pay us to do so. However, their contract
>> Yes. However, I want to be clear that the contract does not fully fund our services. And whenever we have turnover, we have additional losses because it's a fee for service contract. >> And I I just want to be certain that uh
we understand the degree to which this is impacting people in our community and I think we have a potential solution that is uh tax levy favorable. However, if we don't choose to do that, we would
need to hire two to three more staff in order to meet this this need and this mandate. >> So, I'm sorry. Walk me through it. I'm a person who needs to go into nursing home. Okay. >> Okay. So, >> I second that motion. >> Second. >> Well, let me get let me let can I lay
out your options for you all? So, >> so what do I do? Do I come to the county? >> Yes. and I need to go into a nursing >> or blue or blue cross blue shield refers to us and our contract says we must respond to them. So people who are with
Blue Cross Blue Shield are actually getting >> priority to people who are from the state of Minnesota funded services and therefore it keeps >> a customer Blue Cross Bush they're a customer. Yeah, I can understand that.
>> Yes, I think I think business. Yes. And and we're not making money on it and we are losing money and when there's turnover on a fee for service contract, we have additional losses as a result. What I am proposing is you have a few
options in front of you. Number one is we can end the Blue Cross Blue Shield contract. Well, actually, let me just walk through more slowly. The financial and staffing situation is significant. um it we would require two to three additional staff. So I want to make sure
we understand that piece. We there is also a risk of inaction and that risk of inaction is that uh we would have continued non-compliance which puts ourselves at risk and puts us in a difficult position. Um and then the
option one we could end the board the Blue Cross Blue Shield contract which is what I would recommend. Option two is you take no action and we would continue to have losses and every time we have to hire a new employee for this program, we
have an additional 3 to four months of work that is not billable because of the training requirements which results in an additional $34,565 every time we have turnover. And then option three, we can maintain the contract, but I would propose we hire
three additional staff in order to meet the requirements and to serve people in our community. So those are the three options that I see before us. Um I prefer option one, which is ending the Blue Cross Blue Shield contract. We do
have to give 130 days notice to end said contract. And so I am asking that this be moved forward to a board discussion with the proposal that you have before you. This action is absolutely necessary
um in order to achieve compliance uh reduce financial and legal risk uh stabilize staffing capacity and ensure sustainable timely services for vulnerable residents. >> So what happens >> Dwayne had a question first. I guess
>> well um so this is meant to be a quick discussion. We're not going to vote on it. We're going to indicate preferences. And just to clarify, the first is your recommendation and it's also the staff's recommendation. >> Yes, I've talked with them extensively. Uh it's it's this is a crew who
definitely the population is the population they would prefer to serve, but rather than >> Yep. rather them be in this situation, they would rather change their jobs and know that there aren't people waiting. That's very difficult. >> What happens if So, if we say no, then
who do these people call? >> They call keep calling us and we just keep putting them on a list and they keep waiting. >> No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is is that let's just say we get out of the contract with Blue Cross Blue Shield. >> What happens to the people that need help? Blue Cross Blue Shield will find
another provider in the community and it's their responsibility to do so and they will have that provider provide these services. >> Shift the same service to somebody else. Correct. >> Yes. >> For brew class shield >> and social services or something. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It'll take >> So they're going to they're going to
shift it to somebody else. So what is their justification for for example clearly this isn't being if if if what you're saying is true and I don't doubt that it isn't how is this just corporate
shifting of an expense basically saying hey we can get rid of something I'm sure you've petitioned them and said hey this doesn't even come close to covering our cost >> we don't have the power to do that I wish we could >> well I'm not saying I'm not saying
petition as a legal form, but >> 1800 blue cross. Hey, by the way, the power to be this ain't working out. >> Oh, either. >> How how you going to do it with somebody else? Okay. What I'm saying >> what I'm saying though is that what is their response to the claim?
>> I mean, somebody has to be making them aware that what they're paying us and the amount of work that we have to do. What is their response to that? And is it going to be the same with some other bill? >> I can attest to previous conversations with school. >> I'm just curious what their response is.
>> I'm not at liberty to say that on public TV. >> I'm just being very honest with you. But isn't the next >> So what you're saying is that Commissioner W. Can I just hold on a second? >> Yeah. >> Go down here. So what you're saying is that they do not have a willingness to
change. They want us to do something for a certain amount of money. we can't do it, right? And they're going to go try to find somebody else to do it, >> but it doesn't solve the problem. >> Yeah. >> No.
>> And do you see I'm going to see you're saying I'm not done yet here. So go ahead. But what what >> So the thing is is that we previously had another vendor established, meaning we had it all worked out. We talked it
through with Blue Cross and the local vendor, if you will, to transition the clients. And that would take a little over a year. And so it wasn't cutting off cold kind of thing. It was a natural progression of, you know, having them
taken over by another vendor. >> So what does that vendor see? I mean, if it's so blatantly obvious that this the amount of revenue given and the amount of work there, how do this is my question, how can anybody
else take this on if it's so blatantly out of control? And so with that very simple objective, if it's so far out of whack like you say it is and the revenues can't even come close to meeting what the demand is,
first of all, why would any private sector outside of private philanthropy want to even think about doing it? Let alone if we step out. If the common perception is we are so disgruntled at
the fact that we can't provide the service that we're willing to go do something else because we don't want to be part of the person that has to say I'm sorry we can't get to you. How does that change the people affected? I just have skepticism that anybody would want to step into this outside of private philanthropy.
>> Do do you want Let me know. Yeah. Let me know what because I can respond. I can respond. Let me know when you're ready. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. >> Okay. Um, so I come from the private sector at times as well. And when you have the ability to hire staff to meet
the demand and you are able to create a culture where we can continue billing and we can have the people to meet the demand, you can have productive folks. And I did this in the private sector. we don't have the people to do it and we
don't have the ability to hire quickly and we just don't have that. So it's like could you hold on for a second? Um so it's like when you're in a medical clinic it's fee for service. You don't have a doctor. You don't have a bill.
>> I trying to figure and I I get the Can you hold on a second comment? >> Yeah. >> This is me processing this because you know it. >> Yes. >> Ask me something about phosphorus nitrogen interaction. I could explain it all day long to you. >> Thank you. >> And so I'm trying to understand what it
is that the dilemma is and I'm putting it into a CEO's aspect, which is what I have to do. >> So my I can't process that was so fast. So I'm trying to slow the conversation down so we can really look at what this is and try to figure
it out because the the problem that I saw was why would anybody take this on if it's so large? >> What sector is going to do this? and then all of a sudden it doesn't really solve the problem of people not being served. So I understand the concept now.
So this is a billing problem. There's not enough staff hours to bill out. So Blue Cross Blue Shield is willing to pay. >> We just so so so the simple solution is one of two things. Walk away and let somebody else do it. Two is add more
people. And then h does it become feasible and profitable if we add these other people and can we maintain a long enough contract that we don't go hire two, three, four more people and they drop it
on us and now we're stuck with the people. >> Does that make sense? >> Yes, completely. I know in there are times in different organizations where it may be feasible. However, the hiring needs to be quick and we need to move very quickly in the private sector which is very different than the environment
that we have. In addition, the costs of employees is very different here than it is in the private sector. Therefore, that rate that that Blue Cross Blue Shields is paying, it's it's doable in the private sector. And we it gets
compounded by when we create a work environment when you don't have enough people leave and it becomes painful for people especially in my line of work to come back day after day saying I committed my life to serving and I can't
I am seeing people on a weight list and it's not what I came here to do. And so we need to address those things. And I feel comfortable and I I I really appreciate your recognition of my expertise in that I have run organizations and made that profitable
and made things work. But you also have to have the flexibility, the ease with which we can take action and the ability to make adjustments as quickly as possible. We don't have that in this in this environment. >> So when we if we dedicate so I'm weighing all options. If we dedicated a
group of people to fill the void, what's the contract length and stipulations that we could guarantee a certain that work or that income is does Blue Cross Blue Shield sign 10-year contracts, fiveyear contracts, one-year contracts?
>> No. Blue Cross Blue Shield will do what you negotiate with them, >> but that takes a t a lot of work. Okay? And I'm just going to tell you >> it's a norm. >> They're not very amendable to changes. >> A norm three years, one year, what are these? >> Three years.
>> So, it's a three it's it's a three-year risk to fill the void, which >> Yep. >> Um, I could compare this to a hundred other things that I could talk about using county levy >> to >> to to supplant this program because we it's not 100% billable, >> right? No,
>> we're always going to use levy money for this. This is the DMV situation is really what it is. And when you move it to a private sector, there's just a certain amount of >> Well, I would say it is and it isn't. It's not a mandated service for us just like and I agree with you on that. At
the same time, you know, I think we have a choice and we still have people on the wait list that are not Blue Cross Blue Shield that are being pushed back, pushed back and pushed back. And so that puts us in a very difficult decision to serve the people we're mandated to
serve. >> It's the nature of the contract. >> They get hooked up. But I guess I don't understand. You're pushing paperwork to get people into services. >> No, it's not just pushing paperwork. >> Cost. Yeah. So, are we just analyzing
the individual what services they need and they do some of it and we I'm lost here. >> No, we do the coordination of the services. We determine through assessment which services are needed by which people and then we authorize those services and we then make sure they get
those services. So, we are a critical. >> They're paying us >> but not enough >> from federal dollar. They have a contract. >> What they get is Medicare, Medicaid, what where is this money coming from? >> Okay. Okay. So, it comes through the Medicaid
dollars and it is they pay a blanket amount in order for it to be funded and then Blue Cross Blue Shields determines what they will pay and how they will what services will they will allow to be funded. >> So, you got the federal government and then you got Blue Cross that's trying to do something.
>> There's a lot of levels >> and then we do some of the same thing. We're doing the same thing as Blue Cross Blue Shield or the goes through >> no Bluec Cross Blue Shield contract. So other counties do this as well. So this is not just Winona County. Other
counties do this, but the issue is that um we don't have the enough staff. If we were getting staff regularly whenever there was a need whenever the over 65 population grows, whenever the under 65 population grows, if we were able to add
staff at that pace, this would be not as much of an issue, it would still be an issue because of the way in which uh we have the pay structure for employees. >> Okay. How much are we losing on this program?
>> Um that's in the we're losing between 6 is 230,000. >> We lost 230,000 >> for 206. That's what our budget reflects. We're going to lose. The annual losses over the last 5 years have been between 88,000 and 230,000. >> So, question for you. How many people
are on your staff? And what would happen if we if we dissolved this portion? This is not a facicious comment. How many people would be standing around going, "Well, I got nothing to do now." >> Oh, none. Not Not when I got this. I'm
not asking or I'm just simply trying to understand. I do the same thing to my managers, anybody else out there because the idea is that you operate up here to make these types of decisions. So, okay. So, you could reappropriate the staff
that you have. We don't have to hire anybody. The big question becomes that there's somebody willing to take this on in the community. I believe yes, there are vendors. >> I believe there is. >> Okay, because it's this is, you know,
I'm making sure that what we're not doing is looking at all these people saying, "We're out. Fend for yourself. We don't want to hire anybody." But I also don't want to hire people without some sort of a long-term vision and guaranteed contract that says, "Hey, the work is going to be there for you." So,
they're not standing around, right? But at the same time, we can easily justify even if somebody was standing around at 235,000, that would be like her standing around, which we know she's not going to do that at that salary range. So for one person,
right? Well, you're 206 or whatever. So at the end, you see where I'm going with this. So we're just making calculated decisions, but I got to get on the same page as you first to understand that. So I believe if we're not just leaving our constituents out to dry, we can if this
avoids us having to bring more staff on without certainty and we know somebody will is willing to pick this up that can quote unquote do it more efficient, whatever they want to look at that not knowing all the details, I would
gladly support stepping away from this as long as there's we can work with a transitional aspect. I know it's impossible for me to be objective, but I this is something I think you two would like this in in the past. I would have objected to this. I would have talked to staff, but if the staff is in favor of it, I don't want to leave people in the
cold. This is how I viewed it was what you said is it's this is the license center. This is DMV etc. >> The private sector is usually more efficient. Yes. >> I think that they negotiate with federal government better than we do. I think the other issue is I have asked directly
both the administrator and our director would these people get worse service right or would the service level be the same and they're telling me because of our our shortages it could potentially be better >> what's what's the hope with the DMV as
well is that >> that our our our taxpayers or constituents won't get they'll get faster and better service >> and so how many people are on blue Cross with Shield do that we're doing case work for right now. >> 100 gosh that's in the >> I thought that was approximately 400.
>> Yes, I believe 400 overall. >> That's more than I thought. And we would transition. >> Does Blue Cross Blue Shield go out and recruit them or you sign up for Blue Cross Blue Shield Medicaid? >> People have a choice. You need to have a choice of two um HMOs whenever per
county. So if you're on Medicaid, you need to choose between which HMO. And so Blue Cross Blue Shield is one of them. It probably shows up first when you like when you Google it shows up first. >> It will take us about a year to transition individuals. >> So the more we wait the lot more costs
we have and the less service we deliver. >> Is there an option to that's even relatively close to the suggested option? Is is there something I do this all the time if if this if the best option isn't an option because
something happens what would be phase two? What would be option two? >> Option two would be hire the staff so we can deliver the service. >> But you're saying there's a huge non billillable. Now if they're doing the work though, but why is it non- billillable? If
>> because the insurance company makes the and Medicaid makes different rules by service type as to what is and is not billable. If you're traveling, some services are billable, some aren't. So we still pay out the mileage. We still pay out the time for people to travel,
but that is not always billable. It is different by service type in Health and Human Services. It's a level of complexity that is like mind-boggling. It's significant the degree to which different services have different billing rules. >> My wife is a director for a hospice
company. She's been multiple directors for multiple companies and just keeps Yeah. >> getting to the top. And this is a constant dilemma that I hear about just >> Yeah. I don't understand it all. Again, ask me something about fast, right? The billable, >> but you got to at least get the concept that there's so many rules and
regulations and this is why I go back and >> lay this out and put it into perspective as so so really option two, you are at both sides of the spectrum. >> I mean, you're all the way get out or you're going to get in, right? >> There's really nothing in between that you see something. No, there's not.
Because if you do, it's not the It's a great example of not meeting your threshold of scale. And I think you brought that up really well, Commissioner Elsing, that it's a it's a um threshold of scale in volume that really gets in the way. And we either
you got the volume or you don't. And when you're in the middle, it cost us money. >> What's our neighbors doing? What's like the the Houston >> They're hiring more people. >> Yeah. >> Okay. They're hiring more staff >> in county staff. >> Yes. >> But are they having blue? Are they
dominant blue cross or one of these others? Depends. So this is exactly what I'm saying. It's that threshold. If we don't have turnover, life is great. I've worked in companies where you have a great year and you're making money, okay? But next year you're not making
money. And so these are just realities of how the system works because if you have any amount of turnover when you're doing fee for service, it has such a negative impact. And the hiring, it's three months of training to hire
somebody. That's an automatic loss. >> This is why I'm asking the questions because what I I I I don't want to throw the baby out of the bath water because I recognize that this could be a revenue stream, right? and to give up on it. And this is why I'm saying that's why I'm
asking the because we can make money as a county to offset our tax base. And if we can get it out of an insurance company, great. Let's do it. Right. >> If you gave me the authority to hire people when I needed them and to make really quick moves, I would be there. But in this environment, we don't have
that ability. And therefore, that is not feasible. The sketchy thing on this is that Blue Cross Blue Shield is not guaranteeing that our our catch Oh, they won't guarantee it. >> That's what I'm saying. Our catch 22 is that because we have such a difficult time letting people go once they're
hired in our system with the union and stuff like that. >> Um, does that >> No, I haven't seen that be the problem, Commissioner Eling. What I've seen being the problem is we can't go fast enough to get things moving. I'm just saying what I'm saying is that it, you know, to
hire somebody in government and then saying two, three years down the road saying, "Sorry, we lost the funding. We need to let you go." That gets hard. >> Yes. It gets hard for everybody, but I've done it. >> That's that's that's the thing, you know, >> administrator. Yeah. >> So, two things.
This is what you just said, Commissioner Elsen, is exactly why we're proposing. >> Yes. reassign people where we need them to keep our levy down, >> minimize our our costs, >> uh align our resources with mandated
responsibilities, >> uh reduce our losses over um stabilizing the staffing and operations. Um and also positioning the county for long-term sustainability. I mean, that is what you're challenging us to do.
>> No, I'm not getting any of that. I'm trying to understand what what's happening. So after we make this, I would love to have a conversation with I want to know how do you want me to present it so that I can articulate better because I want to do what you need to help make these decisions
because I have to turn around and go back to a group of people who have been so mature and so willing to look at the situation for the needs of the people of this community that I want to be able to
answer them. So I am open to any feedback that you have about the process that I have followed or any information that I have or have not shared I will do so because I get it >> we are doing so this is part of that whole process is to understand this better and exactly why we're diving into
some of this because >> again everybody knows their own thing and I can say it again ask me something about phosphorus you know it's at the end of the day that's that's this is the information we don't get >> and so we to make informative decisions. These are the
conversations that we have to have to understand it at a >> at a deeper depth and then assess the risk. >> I want that uh kind of go around and get everyone's take on it or do you have more questions? No, >> I was going to say I need to leave. I I support the staff the staff
recommendation. >> Michelle, >> yeah, I'll I'll although maybe there's a different hope for that at the bottom. If this is where you guys are at, I'll go with it. I'm trying to let me know if you have ideas because I want to think about that for next time because I do I
absolutely do understand your perspective and I work I will work hard to share my expertise. >> I I support the option one. >> I want to know more about phosphorus. No, >> I I support option one. >> Well, I am not your gal.
>> I will go along with that, but I don't understand it well enough. You could take me a couple clients and explain to me Yep. where the where the problems are, where the why they get put on the waiting list, why we have so many people on and and you know, where where's the paperwork snafu? I mean, and I know it's
people we're dealing with, but it sounds like it's a paperwork problem of Blue Cross is doing paperwork. We're doing paperwork trying to get the person to the right place. >> Okay, I'll be thoughtful about that. Thank you very much. >> Take an extreme. Working session is adjourned. >> Another article.
>> Thank you. Okay. If it