##VIDEO ID:2tVFiJrpVQY## recording in progress oops good a good afternoon everybody uh this is the regularly state of meeting of the Yarmouth Conservation Commission today's date is Thursday February 6th 2025 uh this is to formally advised that as required by General Law chapter 30A sections 18 through 25 and pursu to chapter 20 of the ACT 2021 and the ACT relative extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency signed into law on June 16 2021 as extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 the Yarmouth Conservation Commission will hold a public meeting at the date and time noted above the public is welcome to attend either in person or via the alternative Public Access provided uh above again this is the Yarmouth Conservation Commission meeting for Thursday February 6th 2025 our first order of business is a request for the determination of applicability uh this is David C and Marie km melani one seaside village road it's proposed Edition on post supported by sonat tubes within land subject to Coastal storm blowage hi good evening I'm Stephanie sein with Roder and Wilcox representing David and Marie melagi and they are the owners of the property at one seaside village road it's a Halfacre lot located within land subject to Coastal storm Flowage it's an a Zone here the base flood elevation is 11 the existing uh grades around the building it's a very flat lot um the elevation of the of the ground surrounding the building is roughly elevation 8 so the entire property is well within the uh the flood zone the uh elevation of the existing first floor is uh 11.2 so just a little bit above the base flood elevation there's um an existing three-bedroom house with um an attached deck patio a detached shed uh there's a circular PVE Drive in the front um there's uh in the back of the house Crush stone that surrounds the the deck and uh the perimeter of the foundation and what's being proposed here now is a uh 20.5 ft by 16 ft addition off the back of the house it's a single story it will be constructed on post supported by sonit tube footing so no Foundation uh will be no um impediment to to flood waters um the access to the work area well the the um included construction notes and a construction protocol um the construction vehicles will remain in the front yard on the existing driveway a mini excavator or some other similar sort of equipment will be used to excavate um for the for the SAA tubes um if necessary the existing septic systems in the front yard and that will have to be protected to um to prevent any damage from construction equipment um uh on the proposed addition is uh largely within existing um lawn and or pad I'm sorry deck or stone area so there's no uh no trees no shrubs no significant vegetation that's uh needs to be removed for this um it will a dumpster placed in the front yard all construction and demolition debris will be uh deposited in in the dumpster um upon completion of the construction Stone will be placed along the roof drip line to contain roof runoff and the Disturbed areas will be uh receded with native grass mix okay thank you very much uh questions from the commission anybody Joe anything uh anybody in the audience have any questions or comments on this project there anybody on Zoom if so raise your hand digitally I see none uh unless there's further discussion from the board would somebody like to make a motion for a negative -2 so moved second second all those in favor I I [Music] opposed cares unanimously thank you very much Dr the good start all right our our next our next order of business is a notice of intent uh Lighthouse realy trust one 1033 great Island Road the proposed Bank stabilization with sandbags and reconstruction and expansion of concrete seaw walls within a Coastal Bank Coastal Beach and the velocity Zone thank you Mr chairman U I am Bob Perry Cape cut engineering I am sitting with the applicant Terry McDonald Trustee of the lighthouse realy trust got a little feedback here green cards for collecting those you may want to just push the microphone a little bit further away that's all I believe we're also being joined by Ian Peach of Wilkinson ecological and Gregor McGregor and possibly Caroline Smith of Gregor and leer attorneys they said they would be present on Zoom so they may be in the background so here we are at 10:33 great Island Road we filed a notice of intent for several project features and I want to just introduce those to you briefly um we have a a beach with a Coastal Bank and an Upland it's fairly typical the beach deposit however is um somewhat established with stone groins Stone breakwaters and probably dating from the 50s a set pattern of low elevation concrete walls and I just want to point out in the notice of intent we provided a photograph I want to point out that the efficacy of those walls has been demonstrated to be very effective and it is those walls that represent one of the features of this project where there's about 300 ft of concrete wall some of it just needs to be you know patched and pointed and about 66 ft I think 6 66 ft listed in the notice is damaged severely enough that it would need replacement and we've included in the notice of intent the reasoning having to do with such things as substantial Improvement it's a fairly small proportion of the hole there is a segment that heads Inland on the west which is something we might call a return back when these were built there were no property lines here and now in 19 89 uh or so 87 88 a open space division was created on great Island and there's a lot line there so when the tide surges what we've noticed is that the low crested walls will allow the beach grass to grow and if they are closed Bays the water will not rush back and out and scour the land so on the west we are proposing what would be called a return we we believe there was probably a return there there's a lot of concrete going to the west and many of the walls on this section of great Island have that same kind of feature so we're proposing to reestablish that the second feature here is if you've V visited the site and I think you did we had these discrete locations where the bank cleaved off in rather open Stark erosion it's directly related to the damaged walls where as in the notice where the wall is damaged rushing backwat lowered the beach the water was able to get to the toe of the bank and it collapsed the bank so in those discrete locations the applicant proposes a very light footprint remedy which is biodegradable sandbags that would be a step up from what would be a loose fill reconstitution of those discret eroded areas so the premise is that the individual sandbags which are effectively typical burlap handc Carriage sandbags would lay in there and they will not withstand every storm but they would withstand far better than loose fill that whole area would be planted over after it is you know dressed with those bags and a top coat of of soil we did put soil evaluation and and grain size analysis and the notice of intent so we know the bank is a silt Loom with an underlying layer of course sand and we provided a beach deposit analysis as well so those are the engineering features so once the wall network is repaired and it is refilled and planted and the sandbag array is packed into the discrete eroded areas the overall Coastal Bank is in need of management that is best handled by an expert ecological company and there's a number of them on the cape we all know them well the one selected in this instance is Wilkinson ecological and Ian Peach will speak to the work that they propose on the bank itself let me touch on the work protocol as I said earlier we have a light footprint the Upland is a heavy dur very durable Turf of sheep Fescue natural native fescues and there's a fringe of coastal plant Community growth regosa Rose sort of a wind blown Bayberry possibly some invasives but not in any great quantity and that's right at the top of the bank and it ranges from about 10 ft thick to 4 ft thick everything going down to the beach would be lifted over and lowered to the beach so there's no activity near the top of the bank that would disturb any of that vegetation that's at the top of the bank and the equipment that would be lowered would be very minor many of the sand management jobs that I've seen people use a dingo very small track machine that's the item scale that we're talking about and possibly a small very small mini excavator if you've seen some of those minis they almost look like toys but the rubber tracted very small sand would be hoisted out over and deposited in the same manner and it's there's plenty of equipment that can sit on the turf and deposit that sand where it needs to go in the area that's got no vegetation for you where it's needed so we put a lot into the notice of intent that relates to the performance standards with regard to the beach we have a beach that is not natural we are proposing to repair and and in in certain cases replace in the case of the return area to create a feature on here that's just a responsible thing to do otherwise you'll have the same hydraulic action that we're trying to control and it is in our opinion consistent with performance standards for Coastal Beach is simply because we have the existing features on the beach it's all above the plane of mean high water and it's important for me to tell you that in the long course of time where title jurisdictions do change all those Stone groins the stone break Waters the concrete walls are all licensed by chapter 91 for maintenance under license number 197 that was issued in 1976 so the applicant is intending to maintain those structures before they get any worse I think I've touched on most of what we have in our notice of intent Ian I believe is on zoom and he can relate to you what the Wilkinson program is for the Coastal Bank lean take it away thank you Bob right uh Ian for just just so you know uh we we asked that uh Consultants actually show up in person to to make presentations it sounds like you're coming through okay right now um but the reason we have done this in the past is because we often have issues with the Consultants calling in and then not being able to hear what they what they say so is is there any objection from the board if he goes through with the no objection for me nope good okay so we'll we'll allow that to go ahead uh if if we start losing um connectivity then we may have to do something different and maybe continue but um so if if you'd like to go ahead with your presentation then thank you very much Mr chairman and I do appreciate uh you allowing me to speak I'm going to keep it short and sweet uh for the record Ian Peach from Wilkinson ecological design representing in the project um I would have my camera on but I don't think that feature is available right now on this Zoom webinar so just going to count on you hearing my voice um we've worked with the team here Bob and Terry the homeowner sitting before you and done a careful assessment of the site and we're looking for a light touch as Bob spoke to so we've come up with some straightforward interventions that we really are targeting to benefit the stability of this Coastal Bank and the ecological Integrity of the resource area so these acts can be broken down pretty simply they include a dense planting of American beach grass with the area where we want the pl to be real dense we at 12 in on Center where it doesn't need to be quite as dense and we can have the beach Crest run into each other we at 24 in on Center this is to improve the stability on this very exposed windblown Coastal Bank with this living buffer against sea level rise wave energy and erosion in addition we identified on the bank five Japanese Black Pines this is a non-native State listed as likely invasive um and really a threat to that native plant community on the bank and the success of Beach Grass establishing so to to um speak to ecological Integrity the main move is to remove these five Japanese Black Pines as shown on our restoration plan clearly we leave the stumps in the ground let them decompose over time all of the beach grass planting and the removal of the Japanese Black Pines are done by hand again very light touch but with big benefits to the Coastal Bank and the resource so these simple acts of the Native planting the invasive plant management these are going to work in tandem with the sand that Bob was speaking to the nourishment the walls so we have a comprehensive approach of coastal interventions that are looking to find that light touch path for this Coastal resource so I'm happy to speak to our interventions and what we've seen on site but um I wanted to make sure I was just focusing on those moves that we're proposing this evening thank you again for letting me speak thank you anything else Bob I I think I summarized it well enough I think it's important that we try to answer any questions you have thank you okay so we'll turn it over to questions from the board uh I just want to start when when was the house when was the dwelling built 1991 1991 right so so how are you getting around that nasty 78 ru4 Coastal Bank issue well we're not armoring the Coastal Bank we're repairing these features that are on the beach or in the area that we're not going to say that the definition of coastal Beach is from the low tide line to the first man-made structure we're basically saying we're not going to argue that we have a beach but we're on the [Music] beach but you've got the return right you have that return that you're the so-called return that you're putting back that's right we're terminating that at the toe of the Coastal Bank coming into the toe right yeah basically trying to reestablish the tier it's approximately 2 feet which has apparently from looking at the behavior of that Shoreline successfully held the bank when it is vegetated so I guess my other question with that then is if you're putting a a return wall I mean we have an issue that because we have a regulation that says we don't allow walls to be built in a in a vzone right uh you know I mean at the same time my I guess my bigger concern then is if you have a wall That's exposed that's return the return then and how are you going to prevent and what's going to what's going to stop wave action from coming in slapping up against the wall and then being deflected back into the into the uh first of all off the property and second of all into the into the resource area well we felt that the inclusion of that return is is basically the only responsible thing to do if you leave that array there without a return it it ex it has the potential to exacerbate what we're observing as a trend where uh over topping water rushes to the west and there is no Plateau to the West the applicant is recognizing his obligation to periodically nourish this area I think this is the you know the they've certainly done some management over here but this is I think the first effort to manage this area since those walls were heavily damaged last December and January 23 24 and they've been they were looking at the damage they contacted me uh in summer and told me what they wanted to do and we've looked at it with Wilkinson and the owner's input he's in construction and um I think it's the only responsible thing to do uh with respect to maintaining this array why can't you replace it with uh with some sort of soft solution like Cory logs or something and let it let uh let the area build you're going to you're going to provide sand anyhow behind it you're going to plant the area I think why not use a softer solution to that then well the the soft idea of say a core sand lift or or or that kind kind of of idea because the rolls don't work here in this type of environment it's too too much energy um it would have to close onto the it would have to close onto the bank and the way it was examined was to see how much of this concrete array remains off to the east there's a lot of it and it made sense to the applicant to seek to repair it and to repair it responsibly so that's why the return is there you could do a return so-called with a burrito or a sand lift but it would be a discontinuation it just made sense to keep it in kind with what's there okay anybody else um yeah actually I have a question um so you mentioned that the the scarping was Prim arily due to the failed uh the wall where it has kind of failed um and I I guess I'm wondering if the plan is to repair that wall add sand and plant it um why is the need for the the sandbags why couldn't it just be the Earth loose fill structure because there's going to be events that come over this and some form of buttress of a soft nature was called for at least in our opinion and uh the applicant who is in construction wants to do some of this work himself and the sandbag option was discussed we reviewed it we said it's Superior to loose compacted fill that would be planted because the bags themselves can be planted uh some cover soil can be planted but if you do have the Unlucky event of a fairly low intensity but High course tide storm you would you would withstand that your fill would not just liquefy and dissolve and float away and that's the reason for the bags sorry I guess I'm not following that logic if the sandbags can withstand the those higher velocity storms then what is the need to repair the wall it's a frequency issue the observations have shown us that your moon Tides strong South westers some southeaster have sarch charged the the low wall but with a with the time taken to get a good crop of beach grass growing there that deposit withstands scour and it's it's the analogy that I use and I've looked at the shore for a very long time and when I see good healthy salt marsh I very rarely see natural Coastal Bank erosion it's almost that same principle of having a stratified tier of vegetation and the walls happen to be there and they happen to be providing that tier function and it's really a frequency issue we did not have the walls I believe we would have a much more open sloping Beach right up to the base of the Coastal Bank I think the Coastal Bank would be eroding in full that's my position on that location based on the observations that I've been making okay did did you want to can I say something yeah again just identify yourself for those Terry McDonald sorry so this picture the to I'm a Layman I'm not an engineer but my observation is that where the wall isn't if I can do this where the wall is intact and this is stable that is stable it's a system that all works together so I don't think you can do one and and not the other it to me I don't know who designed it who built it is way before my time but it's a system that is remarkably effective at stabilizing the bank where it is intact where it's not it work so that that's my answer to your question about why it's all together it's a system yeah so I guess the question in that case then is the the sandbags because it's currently stable as is without sandbags so no if you stand there you just see it fall you just see the wind taking it you just see it here here where do you mean it's stable where the wall isn't broken so the Wall's broken right where this person's standing yep right here and the scarp is right behind it MH and that scarp with is is is is falling every day sand is you'll just stand there and watch it fall the wind yeah so yeah my question is what is the what is the need for both the wall and the sandbags could it not just be one or the other so for me Layman it's a system that works all together so we have to stabilize the damage that was done by the losing the wall so we we stabilize the wall we stabilize this shelf and then we stabilize that and then we have a stable bank but but I for that's made I just interject that the sandbags are burlap and there's Rives preferential drainage I don't think there's a lot of runoff uh coming off but we we do have an open area there's a nice Fringe of vegetation at the top of the bank so I don't think we're having any sheet flow or Stream flow off the Upland but to just pack Earth in there I just think we'd be back there doing it again because we can't predict what event will come in but if the limit for at least for the for the near term or several years while those bags Decay the I think the remedy for a storm impact would be to shoot some soil just over the bank as a cover and plant it versus the larger volume that would be necessary if if it were to be if it were to take a pretty good hit so it's I didn't see the sandbags as being a huge Interruption to the environment I saw them as a kind of a safeguard me we in the Alternatives uh discussion that we had among ourselves it was core sand lift at the base but that operates as a you know a lump that almost works like a mulch and it would it would certainly be a buttress for the bank and you'd fill above that um but something was needed there and since the applicant was willing to go through packing sandbags in there we're showing the sandbags because they will be more durable and no less uh no more harmful than um any anything you could put in there it's uh is individual units they're going to fill that void and they are Earth not sand we're proposing an agriculturally rich consolidating soil because we have that in the bank already okay hold on I'll go to Paul and then to David yeah yeah thank you for those explanations um so you just touched upon something I was wondering about so there'll be soil new soil in a sense all along the entire um property line even that that portion that the gentleman just showed no only where the bags only were those discreet eroded eroded Pockets ered if there and I don't remember in that one area you showed that you described as being stable you want to replicate that situation down the beach farther and and you're going to put sandbags in that area and soil along that the the the um plan here says um provide soil along the base yes it shows it shows basically that area as well right there there um the Wilkinson group can speak to it but in the apparent stable areas of the bank there are M this is from the December and January storms of 2023 24 there's a minor scarp breaking out and the Wilkinson crew would address at the very base of the bank over to the just to the west of the stairs a few hot spots that are in there you wouldn't see them on the plan you wouldn't be see them unless you were really really looking for them but those would have soil replaced and they'd be planted I know that's what they're that's what the Wilkinson attention to the Coastal Bank is is going to be doing well that so when I was out there it's not those big chunks of soil that are falling that's what I'm speaking of um in the sandbag context those open slides are proposed to be um packed with hand carried sandbags okay all right and also that that return it seems to it kind of defies common sense to me anyway not having the depth of knowledge that maybe some folks do but it looks like water comes in it's going to smash against that return it's going to do damage on the west to the neighbor's property on on the as you we look at this plan to the left I guess that's the West um you're saying that's not going to happen not to any great extent it's a very low wall would be no higher than the ones that are there and as it heads up the beach it's going to become even less revealed so it's a small cross-section if you want to look at the turbulence and the scour and the complete utter perturbation of that beach include all of the stone break Waters all the Stone groins and the existing concrete that's there now we concluded that adding that segment closed the bay but would not in any significant way add to the potential scour when you look at all of what's going on on that beach okay I just said it seems like it might do that for this property but it seems like it might affect the the neighboring property and in my mind is I Envision a storm and I Envision water up against that and envisioning velocity against that and all that sort of thing well it's not going to be a foot high I think I think it's going to be there's rocks out there that are much bigger than be the waves don't hit it this way along the edge the it's this the the return is this way into the bank okay so the waves go with with the wall not it's not this way isn't it depending upon the storm pardon I I don't agree with that at all this is the return right the return I I know what you're saying but the return you're getting you especially in the summertime you get predominant winds from the southwest your waves are coming from the southwest it comes in at an angle to the return we have a top of wall um in the vicinity of um elevation 5.2 The Ground elevation as it approaches the Coastal Bank is is getting um to be about 5 to 6 so we're just trying to close the bay to minimum cross-section and while I I do a fair amount of work with seaw walls and I know there's always that concern for scour when you have a seaw wall and seaw walls are often tall and they have significant cross-sections this does not and it is landward of an amazingly complex array of breakwaters and groins and I believe it's the only responsible thing to do if you're going to restore the wall segments you need to have that return it just closes the bay done Paul yes yes thank you I'm sorry sorry Paul go ahead um I have a couple concerns well first of all I I totally understand why can you put the picture back up I'm sorry I totally understand why you want to repair the wall uh to reconnect it and you know what you said I can see that working but I cannot accept putting the return in um it's against our vzone standards and um I just don't see allowing that to happen so I I would vote no on this particular um presentation unless you got rid of the return just to be up front um secondly uh my question is why sandbags and not fiber rolls to stabilize good question let me speak to the first point which I think is just and I'm you you see a fair amount of me I'm not argumentative but I we have to discuss these things so when we think about the regulations with regard to vone and structures I'm going to speculate that you see seaw wall applications that do come before you and if you approve them uh not withstanding the 1978 rule you would be most often approving something like a seaw wall in a velocity Zone and this is you could you could try to Define it as a seaw wall but it's it's something different we we tried to name it it's a low crested wall and it's almost acting as an as an upper Beach groin system but I don't think we're outside the lines on your regulations if you approve seaw walls so having said that the fiber rolls in a location like this they can be anchored but they have no mass and they would act with nothing but drag compared to their mass and they would be loosened quickly there are other fiber products like a what I call a a a sand lift which is heavy gauge core blankets sewed together which are accepted by D as soft Solutions and if we were talking core products that's where I'd have to go here and how long are these bags that um how long do they last sandbags yeah um I would speculate that they'd be fabric that would be confining soil for two maybe three years and then what happens after that they will biodegrade their burlap no I understand that but what happens to where they are are you hoping that everything establishes by then well the hope is that time is on the applicant side as with every soft Solution on the coast that adequate vegetation would take on that bank with consolidating soil if you've ever tried to pull beach grass or or Fescue or other good quality Coastal hearty grasses I can't pull them out of the ground and in combination with the lower tier it is our premise that the circumstance you see in this foreground would be replicated down to the property line and that's okay what I could say uh those are my questions okay anybody else yeah and um what is the height of the return in the front as it goes up towards the Cod towards it holds level 5.2 or so and it would go it would be even with the ground and then it would probably be underground okay starting at before the turn Y where the that uh Line Is Where It Starts let's say that's 13 feet Yes that that's where it's mostly exposed at the beginning of that 13t it's about 2 feet high there and at the corner uh I bet it's about the same two feet so as you go up then it goes low it gets lower and lower well it's level but the ground Rises so you see less and less of it yeah so the differ iation I guess I would say of storm small storms large storms uh you're going to be with an extension like that essentially tradeoffs if you get small storms they're going to bounce off if you get large storms they're going to go up over it and they're going to come eventually come around because you're so uh particularly as so I guess my feeling is it's total judgment here as to what's going to be more damaging and if you haven't been out there or you lucky I mean the storms are all different even if they come from the same direction so my feeling is that uh you're better off putting in a return because I would bet that you're going to get more damage from your bigger storms they're going to go in there and that scour all that coming back well it's exactly our premise that the water trying to escape from that tier yeah Will flow to a location of of least resistance now large storms you know all bets are off as we all know this is an applicant coming before you with an idea to use what's there to the best of their ability not to come in with a heavy construction crew to do a two-tier six foot high quar sand lift and change the character of the area this is an an effort to use what's here I know the sandbags are a little novel but they are uh they've been thought through with respect to the applicant's capabilities and his willingness to manage it so I um I just think that for the observed behavior of what we had in that photograph this is an applicant that's trying to do the minimum to replicate that well I don't have any knowledge of the rule on the end of a seaw wall like that I don't know what they how tall they were looking at when they thought up that rule how tall the seaw wall how much water coming in straight into it and I think that it should be our uh approach to judge yes what the damage pluses and minuses not just accept the the rule because it was a certain we don't know the background of the rule unless you Ed you happen to know more for the for the why yeah why the end of it why they don't allow the return well it's not just necessarily the return it's just the walls walls in a a vzone we our other concern is that we don't want to encourage uh some sort of reflection or deflection of the of the wave energy um onto either into another resource area that would cause erosion or you know onto somebody else's property and I think in both these cases you might see some of that uh whether it's extensive I I don't know but I think it's certainly allowing it it gives the potential to do both def flection into a resource which could cause more erosion to the West uh and that's because of reflected energy and uh certainly it's going to be going off the property because it's the return is right almost on the property line well that's an interesting point because would you could you put that return back earlier so it would be more on your own property and not on the who ownership owner of that property is the real estate right I believe it's an open space area I there are several things the applicant can do one is to shift that return slightly one is to provide information from the stewards of that open space parcel about their concern for it um you know it is land when you think about the settlement process that lands open space just to go the applicant here is dealing with I guess a fairly um Earnest and comprehensive effort at Coastal resiliency with the things that are already there and nourishment management of scour should it occur those are conditions the applicant can manage in an order of conditions and I don't think this is a I actually don't believe that this is a massive long-term project I think this is an effort to return the area so that it's got stability if we get the big hurricane I I don't think we're going to be talking about this but would it would it be helpful if the land if the homeowner association weighed in on that concern or not I mean I I do have a concern about that I mean so yeah I mean I would and I would also like like I was I'm hoping that you might want to take some time just to maybe consider another Al any other alternative that you could do to a hardened structure like that um because I I I'm just I'm I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that again because it's such a small it's such a small area yeah you know I guess that's I guess my question is then if that's the case it's only a foot and a half uh or thereabouts then why can't you do it with with sandbags s sandbags would move on the beach I I mean there's obviously things that can be done as an alternate it's just that by doing it with the same construction that we've got the wall out of it's just continuous it is simpler it's not changing that much as I've said the pro the cross-section the protrusion the potential for scour is very small because the structure is quite small low that's that's where I have to um come from because I can't imagine it's not a it's not a bulkhead it doesn't come up you know I shouldn't say it's it's not like a huge seaw wall that's where you do get scour and nobody's going to say you don't but this is a very Dem Minimus circumstance for its cross-section do we have a d number yet we don't actually we just got it about an hour and a half ago kid you're ahead of me any comments uh their comment was that it may require chapter 91 finally and as I said we have a chapter 91 license remarkably we're land Ro of the current high tide line but apparently there may have been some jurisdiction from the 50s I don't Joe did you have any you shook your head pretty positively on well ju uh I I agree with what the commissioner said about the uh seaw wall potentially just shifting the the wave action further west um but regardless I mean the performance standards in the velocity zone are there because they're based on performance so I would assume that that's why we don't want to see any new seaw wall any new Hardscape put in there um and this return just looks like it's an expansion of what was there previously so that's why we would like to see it removed um I do have other questions as well but if you want to address that I have a question and I don't want to be belabor this um I didn't think we had a file number Ed you mentioned the velocity Zone concerns for struct for structures or walls had to do with collateral damage to I I remember reading this is collateral damage to structures but I I didn't I thought it was structures I did not know that your regulations talk about impacts to Coastal resource areas I mean I that that's that's one issue and I I think that it's certainly that something we consider uh you know I think the other thing and and you know we keep referring to this as like oh this is like any other seaw wall but and and it's not it's not a a situation that it's a seaw wall uh in that seaw walls typically are tucked right up against a bank or some other some other landform behind it right and the return is all you know it's all back in the you know buried in the in the uh in the ground so this is a little bit different um in that it is it is exposed and it's exposed for a fair amount of of run there uh so I think that's this this is not like a typical seaw wall situation and we shouldn't be comparing it to that and saying oh well well how do you get around the seaw wall because it's this is not a seaw wall right I agree I agree with you and we made that point earlier if this is half of it is is under the beach the applicants going to nourish um you can shoot sand right in here once or twice a year um we did not see I I'll be repeating myself when I tell you but something that's this high off the beach isn't causing material problems for scour it's no different than any of the rocks that are strewn all around here any loose Rock on the beach is going to create a hole next to it from water variations and speeds and pressure and I just never dreamed that this would be a scour concern well I mean this is one issue of scour and and deflection but um I guess my other moving completely moving completely away from this side uh I do have another question about um the planting especially the planting that as it's provided on the on the bank side uh which is the 24 in on Center uh which is also where the the Black Pines uh one of the Japanese Japanese Black Pines are um so my first question is in that area I mean I I see why you only want to do the beach grass in the tighter smaller area down on you know further down on the beach but on the bank uh would there be a reason why we couldn't add some more diversity in in planting uh along the bank Ian's on there but I'm sure they can Ian yeah through the chair thank you Ian Peach again um so we looked at that obviously you know we we are big Believers in diversity biodiversity but it's that it's the really that simplified approach and with the exposure of this site we really thought a nice thoughtful but with a high return intervention without getting irrigation down on the beach and having super stunted Maritime shrubs that we're replacing would be to work with what's working and that's American Beach Grass okay uh and are are you thinking about trying to do any kind of rep of replacement of trees then I I realize they're they're invasive plants but uh they are trees would you would you be able to put some other type of native it's not something we've considered yet I mean I could understand mitigating for that um if that was a wish of the commission I would not want to place them on this Coastal Bank likely again with the condition potentially scrub Oak um would come to mind as a possibility as something that may survive here um but we are open for working with the plant specification I mean I I I'm not saying that you necessar have to replace trees on a bank but uh something something above the bank would I think that would be something that could could easily be be accomplished okay yeah that makes sense anybody else one last small question is I look at the return on that and you've got the remains of the seaw wall that go out and from that corner how tall are those remain you know they're laying down they're damaged they I don't know that they are from a formation that might have been perpendicular but they are offsite for the most part yeah yeah oh no yeah and basically you can see there some on the remember what I said the the there were no lot lines when they were built and we wanted to segregate the work from any neighboring proct with minimal collateral and question yeah so on your plan in that section where where the the wall is broken okay it says concrete wall to be reconnected to replaced to replace I guess segments but maybe the question was well how high are those Replacements going to be the same as the ones that are there and how high is that that's elevation 5.2 plus or minus they're not quite perfect but that's about 2T 2 and 1/2 ft above the grade where they are now okay then you have the the return ask another question but it's a very the beach comes up and the return just kind of dies into it yeah and when you consider the returns and you consider the the returns as one part of this project basically I don't know how to ask on a scale of 1 to 10 how important are they very because when water gets up onto that tier it wants to run back and if it can run to the west and continue to the West it will scour just as it's doing now so so what in in a storm what is I think has been stated is going to get way over those right things so this is just kind of what a normal calm summer day and it's high tide and some water's going to go in and so because it doesn't seem to could possibly be too protective in any kind of a of a a disturbance any kind of storm the photograph that was put up shows a very intensely established field of beachgrass in that small low tier yeah but those walls how high are those walls there those walls are approximately 18 in to 2 feet high where you see them there CU I was out there but I I guess I didn't pay that muchen approximately that there's some snow and the the sand comes and goes on the seaw side so there's a little bit of variation but that was surcharged heavily this rack material piled up against the Coastal Bank and it withstood the surcharge because it's it's level and it's vegetated it can't get a rapid current but when you go off to where the wall was damaged there was a way for preferential flow to really dig it out and it did and so the premise here is to create the plateau level so that when water escapes from being surcharged it's far more diffuse and not concentrated okay all right I've asked all my questions thanks anybody else Joe Joe for the sandbags is there a plan to stabilize them in any way like you said it's a you know High velocity waves coming in there sometimes and anything to keep them from dislodging from each other from that gravity just gravity yeah and and the top layer soil that right vegetation once it establishes with roots are we going to continue it's up to you and do you want to take that that opportunity or do you want the vote you want just I will tell you my take is I have always considered projects in the first hearing before a committee to be somewhat introductory I've been thinking about this and working with Mr McDonald for five months and you've talked with us about it for one night and you've looked at it done your homework maybe for a week since we filed it we have to talk among ourselves I think about what you said and I think we just found out we had a file number um I wouldn't be looking for a vote right now um I think we should think about what you've said ask you now if you have any recommendations um then we would come to see you in a couple of weeks I mean I I think we were pretty clear as to what we our our concerns um you know I mean and if you're willing to take a time and and and think about a little bit more too and consider that and if you come back with this exact same plan I understand that too because that's that's what you were looking to do in the first place um but I think that might be a good thing so uh if you want to do a continuance for two weeks to the next meeting yeah I'm hoping you you would you know in your thought process would think about what we've told you and two we continu please okay you do oh I'm sorry I need to go back to the audience is there somebody in the audience oh right that's why I'm here anybody in the audience have one any comments or questions on this anybody on Zoom there's a hand Gregor good evening thanks a lot we appreciate all the time you spent before and during this hearing and we'll see you in two weeks we appreciate your consideration okay thank you Gregor uh any further discussion among the board no would somebody like to make a motion to continue this to uh February 20th yeah I will okay is there a second David yeah second all those in favor I iOS car anous we'll see you in two weeks we'll do our thinking and you can do your I give you your time for their patience no we're getting there [Applause] y so so the next one you you going to skip the next one is Lynn out she's not here um move it to the end and see if she comes yeah so uh the the consultant for uh the next hearing uh is not in the audience right now uh she's had some issues that she's dealing with uh so she's trying to make it make it here but she's not so what I'm going to do right now is just put that off off uh and go right into the request for certificate of compliance and this is for SE 883-2356 [Music] me where we are oh yeah this yeah you we uh Britney and I visited this one you guys yeah I didn't think we went there okay okay so Joe do you have any do you have any introductory comments on this before we get to Dan and then I'll I'll switch over to you okay yes so the major thing that we saw on our visit was that the um this gravel came out quite a bit further then the property line came onto the town way here as you can see a little bit and that it also expands it's kind of hard to see in the let me see if I can find a better photo yeah so oh nope not that one here we go yeah so in the original plan this was all uh I believe a brick walkway but it was only about you know 3 feet wide or so and so this constitutes a a an expansion of Hardscape with this gravel here coming out from the side of the house and what is that about 4 feet 4 and 1/2 ft You Know It uh when we measured it on mass mapper I think it was closer to six feet but it's kind of hard to tell from that so uh Britney did do a rough estimate based on the drawing and I think she came up with actually got to back out here uh we have the mark yes this one so all this yellow is basically a uh gravel that we didn't anticipate when the uh order was approved so her rough estimate is 340 Square ft so the gravel that says Union Street at the top is not his property correct so he they put gravel on Union Street which is Town property that's correct it's a weight of water I believe right yeah yeah okay well that's got to be fix agreed that's what we would like to see before we uh issue any sort of certificate of compliance is to either remove that or come up with some other plan okay Dan sure um so for the record Dan oela I'm a land surveyor and civil engineer with downkeep Engineering in yarmouthport and um uh um Marty Riley unfortunately passed away he was the original applicant for this um a great fellow and that that was very sad but uh his partner Kennedy is I believe in the audience he was outside earlier and we were chatting about it a little bit and um what he so there's a few points to make on this that you know we could possibly consider um uh as as um extenda circumstances one I I did provide a photograph which I've got on a a file and I think I emailed to Joe but um it's not as though that area was uh you know pristine Wilderness at the end of the road there um you some of you may recall that he were illegally storing his floats there for many years and one of the condition let get the floats out of there off the town property so if you look at the photographs now uh they're over on the side of the house properly away and um if you look at the old aerial you can see there was a boat um in uh 2001 there was a boat stored uh in the garage area and the floats were all the way out there at the end so it's a disturbed area and um unfortunately the town doesn't really have a drainage system for this road so the the water comes down and kind of unceremoniously dumps into this area and Mr Kennedy had a hard time with the water during construction and so it was muddy and so forth and um so we we actually think that it's a it's a better situation now rather than the the Ruddy grass and and and mess that's there to have an edge with some perious gravel might actually be a good thing to keep some water out of the river we're not representing that would stop a big storm the water would would over top it but you know a lot of first flush type contaminants would go down in that gravel there probably be nice Biomat that forms and get some treatment rather than than running it into the into the river um number two um if you look at the uh photographs it was a hardpacked uh we have permission to leave the hardpacked um brick surface and as bricks are you know they silts up between them and they tight fit red brick so that was a very impervious surface that whole area would just run down uh towards the lawn and into the water uh so what we have now with the wash stone and again are our site plan plan was kind of Silent on it I kind of figured he'd leave that there but it came up and was replaced with wash stone the Cobblestone apron was was replaced or expanded a little bit but um I think we could take judicial notice of the fact that it was quite impervious and now it's very pervious so that that actually sort of a positive thing um we would note that um um under the rivers act um when you have an existing lawn or driveway uh converting that to a deck uh or or or or a gravel surface would be considered a minor activity which is exempt under the rivers act um and that's because it's a legal lawn this lot uh was very old um again the road layout is 1800s uh there's a 1946 map showing the end of the the concrete there um our structure has been there for many many years um the older septic Plan called that big tree there a six inch tree now it's about a foot uh so it's kind of fun to see that grow over the years as the plans have progressed but we carefully saved the tree um the the landscaped area was converted um over um the other important point is is a very high groundwater as you can see from the pictures or I could show you other pictures but uh we've only got a couple of feet of free board over the water here so instead of dry Wells we use a gravel drip edge and that's actually what you're looking at here is the gravel drip edge um uh which um when you look at your um page uh 7A special condition 9 it does allow those gravel drip edges instead of dry wells in this particular case so uh we would argue that that's just a beneficial gravel strip Edge inside of where the um uh the walkway was and not shouldn't really count as any kind of Hardscape that would be uh T tagged against us so um I would respectfully ad MIT that you know while we could pull that up and put lawn back I don't know that that would be the best thing for this site um we may someday redo the bulkhead and usually you get a foot or two foot strip of plantings there you know we' be happy to do that one and if that happens but uh for now uh we'd be hopeful that because you allowed the gravel drip edges because there was um already driveway and gravel hard pack at the end and uh there is uh a pitch that runs all the water down there that having put a little bit of wash stone out in the road layout actually is probably a net benefit for the environment and um being that it was lawn and exempt under the rivers act um maybe you could find your way to approve this uh and then you'll get another bite at the Apple when we come back for the the seaw wall later um so that would be the pitch I'd be glad to answer any questions if you have them okay uh yeah I mean so I I agree under the rivers act uh you would have the I could see the exemption uh but it's not Exempted under the bylaw um so we do need to to resolve it that way um and so I just want to make sure I so you're you're saying if you you'd like to keep it but then you would do some sort of a planting a two- foot strip along the along the bank there along the what I think might be nice um you noticed there was a couple of bushes there uh that that that disappeared um perhaps a couple of bay berries a condition that then Joe could review before he he he puts out the order um that might be something we could do now um I'd like to save the strip on the seaw wall for when we redo it because of uh we're just going to destroy it if we redo it and my guess is it'll be done within 5 to 10 years um based on its age um and then we wouldn't have to redo that but if we were to put in um you know near that tree you know two or three Bay berries something like this um then maybe that would um sort of paper over the small incursion to the local bylaw where we added some more perious gravel where there was lawn and again it's it's not too Grievous and that you know there was already disturbance there the end of the road was you know just kind of a messy hard pack grally Ruddy area and now it's a little bit neater um and it does serve a purpose of infiltrating some storm water so it's it's not necessarily a bad thing to have that there there and perhaps three bayberries you know three gallon plus uh might might cover the the sin just a little confused this picture we're seeing now is from 2022 correct that's pre pre-development yeah with theack picture too please yeah and there's another angle looking back um you don't have the same view uh I have a similar view let me see if I can oh maybe I don't may do have a lot of pictures though I that okay and that's the way it is now yes as of the 28th so the bushes are gone tree still there it's grown and Union Street is uh well let me go to do we have the plan yeah the wooden fence is still there the tree is still there um so the tree doesn't show on that that one unfortunately yeah but the tree is roughly on the property line or thereabouts so uh to go back to well that gives me an idea where the property line is yeah the the property line is right about here did they use that for parking on their grass yeah you yeah in the in the photo from yeah this is van and as Dan has stated there was a previous issue with floats being stored in that area and you can look at uh Aerials from the past and you see boats and trailers and that sort of thing being parked in that area is that still used today for parking I think it's a town way to town way to water where you could um you could probably park there for a minute but um generally parking wouldn't be allowed um there um I although I guess the town manager would have to you know a pine on it but normally people wouldn't walk you could just walk down there and throw a line out if you wanted fishing yeah I mean we're now talking about about town property uh and so I mean we don't really have the right to speak for the town in terms of how how they want to manage the property but assume that they would want to do something to maintain their use um I mean I tend to agree that you know there's got to be something there uh it's a it's a weight to water so I mean you you gotta have something there for PE for people to to drive across walk across that sort of thing um but I think it was also done clearly without permit and I don't think without too much thought there um yeah I I certainly didn't say they could do it or not do it and and I but I do apologize because my asilt plan shows it and my guys didn't pick it up I I normally would have said something but and talking to my guy Craig who did it he says oh yeah well that was just a gravel drip edge beside the beside the the walkway and and so what we're really talking about is just one little triangle and um so perhaps the three shrubs could could compensate for that um the end of the road you know for what it's worth I I did happen to notice there was a fence across it in 1946 that blocked off the end but I don't think that's been there since uh not in recent memory it was always just kind of a an empty area at the end of the road with a couple of parking spots going back to the uh seaw wall and you said the plantings and you said 5 to 10 years before you my guess I mean it's been there a while and it's a very expensive way it is until next 5 to 10 years until you need to do the you guys yeah not to interrupt but you usually like a little something when you do a seaw wall over you know some kind of a little strip and I thought that might be the best time to do it rather than do something now which would be disturbed I'm not feeling that well again don't you usually when you do a seaw wall require a little strip again I you know I I think you didn't require it in this instance but yeah I mean in the past when when people have have put in new seaw walls we would certainly uh look for it uh or if they were doing something else uh as part of mitigation we would say you would put a strip in behind the seaw wall yeah uh I think in this case I mean the gravel that's there uh is taking the place partially on the the hardened um brick uh walkway correct but it has definitely expanded uh I can see uh can see your point there and that it's you know the difference between grass and gravel in this case not much there uh my only concern is um sometimes when you have that have that gravel like that then people start making it it makes it easier for people to start spraying uh pesticides in order to control the weeds rather than going out and picking it up and and pulling it that sort of thing uh so that's that's one concern be happy with an ongoing condition that that be weeded manually you know just to put the owner on notice that yeah I mean I that's hard to hard to prove and and harder harder to uh enforce but yeah U at least so that's why I would say I would I would be willing to leave it go but you'd have to put that twoot strip in right now I I just there's no way I'm going to say yeah come back in 10 years because I won't be here I'm I may not be on the Commission in 10 years can you believe that the uh just just so you know as a as as in looking at this uh it's about a foot and a half wider than the old uh walkway was uh that's uh so we're we're uh Britney shows that walkway aligning with that uh full disclosure it's about a foot half seword of where it was uh and but the area inside of that walkway um uh was certainly lawn before and um and is now required to be drip edged so it's only very slightly wider so um just just so we're but just so we're clear the the incursion that we're talking about is is about the big as Little Triangle I've drawn until you you know talk about what's in the road and you know if you really want us to scrape up what's in the road and put it back to the you know kind of crummy condition it was you know we could do that but it doesn't seem like it would make much sense because it was always as you could see from where our car was Park just you know kind of dirty hard pack grally grass that somebody had to mow so um I think we'd have to hear from I'm trying to think um is it DPW who maintains the natural resources yeah DPW DN natural resources yeah Wast of water in fact there's a there's a a study going on now that's um partially partially funded by the CPC regarding all these Town ways to water I don't know if this thing is identified or whatever I think it is quite um unusual to just um arbitrarily take some of the Town property like that and do something different with it without some sort of a discussion with the town in this case it would be um natural resources and you know you you made a comment about putting it back in its kind of I forget what you said crummy well would simply rake up the gravel and you'd be left with just kind of what it was you know which is just kind hope that because this was done and it was done improperly that it would be returned to some other kind of acceptable um condition well I would yeah yeah I mean but it obviously it wasn't a pristine you know U anything it was just but now it's burn grass been encroach upon approp inappropriately well yeah I I don't think there was any malice of intent here it was probably just a muddy mess when they got done with the forklifts and everything and they just oh let's even it out and put a little gravel I mean the rest of the road is paved it was just accept that then honestly well you know that's it's just a little bit of of n of native you know wash stone in an area that was always uh used as a drive so I mean it is what it is if you don't like it we can certainly move it and put it back from I mean we should probably ask DNR since they're the ones who manage the the waste of water they they should at least have some sort of a say as to whether or not they yeah and and and and really that we don't have a sale pending right now it's no problem we'll continue it and get whatever advice and consent you want we have no problem with that um I would just looked at it as it you know it it's not as though we Disturbed an area that wasn't already Disturbed so I figured a little bit of inert gravel wouldn't be too big a deal but we absolutely can go through whatever whatever you'd like us to do so from that I'd like to get get some some feedback from from DNR on that one but um then well then as far as the the part on the property with the extra gravel fill um if you I understand that it does serve as a drip trench but usually those are what like a foot 18 in wide so it's much wider than that so as far as we're looking at it it's wider than it needs to be so uh and if you disagree with our kind of you know back of the envelope calculations there if you could figure out the actual uh square footage of excess gravel um we'd like to see maybe a 3 to one restoration mitigation planting um and I agree the best place to put it is along the the river along the water's edge I understand what you're saying about having to redo it in 5 to 10 years but um yeah I I I hate to see it left as lawn in the intervening years if you said one year I would have thought differently but five to 10 years a long time yeah yeah yeah and it wouldn't be the end of the world to redo it but just was my thought it might be a little nicer on the corner but I hear you all right well I'll go to the owner we we'll check with the NR if they don't want it there we'll put it back to exactly what it was and uh remove the extra Hardscape and and then we can just issue the order or if you'd like toit at it with 3:1 we'll do that it's obviously not a big deal to lift up some gravel so you know one way or the other we'll get it figured out I appreciate your time and should uh do we need to continue to a date certain or would we just uh reapply or um um so I guess you could either withdraw it or we could deny it um and then you would just have to have to um knowly yeah say no more I think it' be much easier we withdraw if we could withdraw without and then we'll uh we'll get this figured out if you could help point me in the right direction on who to talk to about the right away whether it's DPW or DCR uh whoever you've got that that looks at that and uh maybe they've got some drainage planed in that area it would be wonderful but I'll check in with them so yes so talk talk to bill benetti at DNR and then if you would uh tomorrow could just send a an email to Joe and Britney just saying we request to withdraw the the COC request absolutely and then take it all up and start the whole process all over again once we get that figured out as soon as we get it figured out we'll we'll we'll see which way to go but um and and so uh a 3 to1 mitigation or remove it sounds like the way to go so we'll uh we'll get one of one of those two items um figured out and uh off we'll go all right I appreciate your time thank you okay thank you Dan the um oh and just to mention too the the whole driveway was all brick and now it's all perious so that's maybe something to consider when we re visited it that it is quite a bit better situation um present exact area disregarded I would say marginally better but well hard pack brick is pretty impervious but we we'll discuss that at a later date how's that fair enough all right thanks Dan um all right I am going to go back to uh the notices of intent uh we're looking at notice of intent for SE 83245 n Alfred a Delino 15 Webster Road and after the fact filing for retaining walls and fill fence and improvements to rent station with land subject to Coastal storm Flowage good evening Lynn Hamlin representing the applicant apologize for my um my lateness um this is um an noi in response to an enforcement order the resource area is strictly um flood plane there's no other Wetlands resource area within 100 ft of the property the enforcement order cited a retaining wall in Phil or retaining walls in Phil and I went out there I included the fence and they did improvements to the existing um rent station we have rent stations now and um and I just wanted to bring everything into compliance so there was a record of on file from this day forward so it would be a known spot where everything was approved um I tried to take some pictures if you hadn't made it out there but the um a lot of the retaining walls were just reconstructed in place um when Mr Delino brought the brought the property it was in need of um some improvements the retaining walls are all rotted so he replaced the one on the easterly property line the one that kind of boxes in um around the deck and um on the I think it's the Westerly side of the basement entrance there was a retaining wall that ran east to west and it and I got a picture in my um narrative that came about three to four feet off the deck and he extended it to make the backyard flat and to preclude the runoff from going down the slope into the neighbor's yard the tree that you can see in the little photograph on page one was undisturbed it just kept it there he brought in in about 10 cubic yards of Phil LOM and stone um so there was no increase in impervious area I did a a extensive narrative outlining the different aspects of your regulations and how I believe the project complies it's one of those dense neighborhoods with very small properties the property is 0.12 they're all on top of each other so we put the fence up just to provide a little privacy um there's no impact to the flood zone this is at the upper reaches of an a zone so it's got low height of wave impact and actually it straddles the boundary of it so it's it's up high and then it's almost out of it so I will stop there and um see if you have any questions questions from the commission you did mention that um storm water stays on site is that what you said Yes actually it stays better on site because the level it off okay no other questions okay are there uh are there any a Butters here anybody online my only I guess it's not really for us to to worry about but I don't like the fact that you've got a wall going off of the property onto a neighbor's property um I think the neighbor on the um West Side on the uh East Side East Side oh you're right um he's very friendly with that neighbor and the neighbor was happy that he replaced the wall um I mean I assume because it's it's helping benefit the water the storm water that's I assume that's probably what he did is he replaced it in the exact same location as the pre-existing one and the neighbor was happy that somebody came and fixed all the rotten walls okay um anybody else no is there anybody online yeah I'm I'm still working on the commission anybody on the commission no no uh Joe anything uh not really we just um we're concerned about how the storm water is being managed uh are those dry Wells it's it looked like there were plenty of gutters and there's a lot of stone he brought in a lot of stone so it can just flow it's it's Sandy there no there's no issue with um runoff all right okay anybody in the audience on this one anybody on Zoom um I can't read that name cludia it just says Claud iPad I right Claudia go ahead so this is Tim Norton and Claudia here and um we're the a Butters at number 13 and just wanted to point out a couple of things so we had uh concerns that of course their addition encroached upon our wall which uh we had installed and we went through this process last year and there were drain drainage holes on the side of our hole our wall that we had put on that autch them and those are now covered up of course we this fill and additionally I want to H let you know that that was that was a wound that wall boundary boundary wall I understand the our neighbors needs to space for his H short ter rental business um but um he fill the space the we live for the draining property and that is all thank you everyone okay thank you you want me to address that or doesn't need addressing you would you like to address it the um the their walls constructed actually on U my client's property and they were I mean they if any drainage was occurring it shouldn't have been being discharged onto the clients my client's property anyway so they didn't just don't I'm confused by the numbers so is this the house if you're looking at the front of your house to the right okay thank you and that that that project there was subject to an extensive enforcement yeah that's what I'm trying to remember which house I do know right this was this one with he had all the all right say no more oh just a question I was out there and and so that area that's um I'm sorry maybe that's Claudia could you please uh okay thank you so the area behind the um the house that is elevated they put in a new um a new retaining wall and then fill that all in okay and when exactly when was this done not long ago how long ago he just bought it um maybe this fall um let's see I'm sorry I don't have that I'm looking at the date of the enforcement order um the enforcement order is dated in September um um I would take a stab and say this summer I'm I'm not positive but recently yeah okay all right and so no one had any notion that they should get a permit and come before this committee regarding that work no um I can understand why you look around there's no Wetlands you're just in the upper reaches of a flood zone just a um a flood plane you're in a dense neighborhood and there's construction all around you I I would know because this is my field but I understand what people wouldn't necessarily know yeah I'm I'm kind of surprised if people in that area wouldn't know but okay well I I it's just always interesting to me that work goes on to this extent without anybody saying to themselves well gee I wonder if we need a permit from the town or we should go be we're in a flood plane maybe we should go before the Conservation Commission I mean are people so oblivious to that type of thing that they proceed with this and you know I mean it just it just is um interesting um I'm I don't always assume that people are malicious in their intent especially if you don't come from the cape um yeah no you know and especially you're not bumping up against or bumping up against a swamp or something that's more visual I um I can't understand it I've always had a pet peeve that I thought that the realtor who sells it and the lawyer who does the work should say to them hey just to let you know you're in a flood zone and that's that's not you but that's a pet peeve of mine that people who sell a house in here they're so intent in selling a house they don't tell you everything and they should because there's no regulation requiring them too because if it was if if there was a a toxic waste site underneath the house they have to well I believe in eics no I I'm 100% with you I live next to a property that was 100% Wetland and they were marching people through there to build their house I tacked my cards on trees I mean I just thought that was so wrong but but the thing is and again I I know this might not even be within our purview but the thing is that that if you're buying a house you probably know that it's in a flood plane why wouldn't you why wouldn't you as the buyer say hey tell me about this area and then somebody brings up the notion of flood plane okay and then to me that should lead to well do we need to do anything special here when we want to do some some uh adjustments to the to the house and that house needed from the owner told us an awful lot of work you know it had raccoons in it or whatever it was prior to him taking over and he's done a beautiful job but you know it's just so frustrating to see this work done and then there's an after the fact kind of a filing and if it if if if the filing had taken place they wouldn't have been filling up that area in back of the house I believe this commission would not have allowed it really I I I don't think I'm speaking for myself I was pretty happy that I thought this was a pretty compliant project I don't like getting them that you're on an uphill battle because it just wouldn't have been approved I don't know okay well thank you you have two people online who have the hands raised uh yeah I mean I I always I Marvel more that this work goes on and nobody in the neighborhood says anything but that's neither here nor there uh Claudia you have anything to do you have anything to do additional yes just Tim here again with Claudia not it's neither here nor there but just to inject a little bit more information these people did file the complaint against us for this similar and so yes it's um they're very well aware of the requirements thank you okay thank you somebody else up there too right uh Fred can't read it Fred Fred yes good evening I'm the homeowner at fif Webster that ly is representing I first like to correct Mr Norton that we did not file the complaint against them hold on hold on I I I don't care who filed complaints against what okay do you have something to say about this project my only comment was made during the visit is that it was an innocent ignorance about living by the Waterfront um I relied upon the contractor asked about a permit uh I was advised I didn't need one I trusted they understood where we were what our location and what the regulations were and we move forward from there so nothing was done maliciously or to be done in a saky fashion thank you all right thank you uh okay is there anything any further discussion along the board can you turn could you could you please mute um thank you thank you all right um if there's no further discussion among the board would somebody like to make a motion to approve the project with special conditions so moved second all those in favor I opposed carries unanimously all right thank you Lyn you said about the next neighor I thought you were going on to comments from the audience yeah no that's okaye uh where are we here um all right next order of business enforcement number five yes uh next order of business is moving on to enforcement uh we have blue flax design for Nance Carbone 14 and 20 kingsberry way uh this is a v violation of special conditions 10 through1 13518 of SE 83214 and this is a review of the restoration plans good evening everyone Teresa sprag with blue flax design here in behalf of Nancy and Philip Carboni who are also in the audience here this evening um we're here to um review a plan that we're proposing um as part of the enforcement order that was issued in October of 2024 for um um some issues with the open order of conditions that had not been closed out or received a certificate of compliance from 2017 um mainly there were three um issues with the special conditions and that order of conditions that had not been met um special condition number 10 that the area that was Disturbed during the mowing for the bamboo um shall be Revit that a 20ft buffer strip um shall be planted adjacent to that previously managed area and um additionally that um I believe it was number 13 that landscape debris including leaves grass clippings Etc invasive debris be removed from the um from the management area so this goes back to an order of conditions that was issued in 2017 that allowed the property owners to manage invasive bamboo that was located on Town property that was invading um the Upland portions of of the um of the property of the carbonis property so they were working with the agent at that time um trying to find a solution to the bamboo and frag mighties that was invading the area um and they came up with a mowing schedule to manage the bamboo in that area without um the use of herbicide um so fast forward the bamboo had been managed it was continuing to regenerate as we know bamboo does it's particularly difficult to manage um there are clumps of bamboo that are that are regenerating within that area and in addition to that frag mides was moving into that area um so they conducted some mowing um earlier in 2024 and then this enforcement order was issued as a result of that mowing because the order of conditions had expired um they requested a certificate of compliance was which was denied because of those three special conditions that were not met so I think one of the issues that when um the carbonis approached us to um come up with a solution to this I think one of the um issues was that there there was not a really a wellth thought out long-term management plan proposed for this area given the um tenacity of the bamboo and the pressure of the frag mighties moving into this area so we've put together a proposed restoration plan for this area to um meet the um the enforcement conditions that were issued in October um with the exception of two of those enfor ment conditions that we're asking um for you to consider this evening um the first one is condition number four that requires a single rail fence um denoting the conservation property be installed and we are proposing to install shrubs in Li of that single rail fence we think the shrubs will do a better job protecting the um Wetland resource area the bordering vegetated wetland in particular um and number 12 there's a condition that there'll should be no cutting or mowing Beyond that fencing and one of the things that we are proposing in here to continue to manage the bamboo and the frag mes that are regenerating in this area is to seed the restored area with an oblate fact wet um seed mix um as well as interplanting it with um with Wetland shrubs and then allowing us to mow this area over the next several years um to prevent that frag mes from moving in and prevent that bamboo from from taking over while the um restored vegetation um establishes um so those are the two areas of the enforcement order that we're asking for some slight consideration for um for changing um we have um submitted a restoration planting plan along with um a Land Management plan narrative um which I'd be happy to walk through um very briefly um with that Land Management narrative we've included um an introduction with our goals and objectives for the project existing conditions um which I know you're all familiar with this site um we did want to note that um the area directly to the north of lot 14 which is labeled B on our um page three of our Land Management plan is entirely almost entirely um fragm mites fragm has almost entirely taken over that area there is a little bit of Bas at the edge um but otherwise fragm mites has completely taken over the area area C is the um portion of the bordering vegetated Wetland that was recently mowed um and that's the area in question that led to this Enforcement issue um and that's the area where we're focusing most of our um restoration goals on that particular area because there is regenerating bamboo and the fragm mites is moving in from the West um into this area um in addition to that um there has been some um some mowing regular Turf maintenance um that has um moved on to the town property um on page four of Our Land Management plan we show some images of that um we are proposing to remove that Turf that is not on the um Carboni property that is on the town property and to restore that area with a mix of native shrubs um as well as grasses and wild flowers um we believe that the native shrubs will prevent the any mowing intrusion into that area will stop that it'll be very clear delineation between the property and that therefore an additional fence um is not really necessary in that case um on page five of our management plan we discuss the goals and outcomes our number one goal is to restore and stabilize the BBW um by managing the existing invasive vegetation replanting with Native species our outcome to is to prot protect water quality um within the bordering vegetated Wetland as well as the associated um waterways nearby um improve wildlife habitat and function um value within the Wetland and vegetated buffer zones um with that we've also provided a management plan that we're proposing um which is outlined on pages six and seven um what we' propose to do immediately is to go in and first of all remove the debris that was left behind from the mowing so go in there with a walk behind skid stair with a York rake rake out that debris it's quite thick in there so that we get good seed to soil contact when we restore um when we seed the area with the obligate fact wet seed mix um that debris would be removed to a composting facility that was required as part of the original order of conditions in 2017 um and this will allow us to be able to replant this area effectively um once that area is Rak it will be seated immediately and that area will be rolled to get good seed to soil contact and then the area will be covered with chopped straw in the spring we propos to remove the existing Turf areas with a sod cutter to prepare them for planting we don't want to do that in the winter because we don't want to leave exposed um soils we would remove that um that sod plant the Woody vegetation seed the areas between um the Woody vegetation plantings and and additionally we would plant the Woody vegetation that we're proposing in the bordering vegetated wetland mainly um Spa Meadow Suite and Winterberry holly there is existing um sweet Fern that's in this area as well as some ground cell Bush that would just be allowed to regenerate um none of those existing native plants would be touched um we would continue to monitor for signs of invasive species we would recommend doing um a very minor selective herbicide treatment with systemic herbicide to the frag few fragm mites that are moving in you you can see those um on the bottom right hand corner um as well as the clumps of bamboo that are regenerating in this area we would propose to use temporary irrigation on the Upland planting areas to get the Woody vegetation established um and make sure that they are properly irrigated throughout the growing season this would be temporary irrigation just for the purposes of establishing the Woody vegetation we would continue to monitor for weeds and pull any noxious weeds that are moving in there is um actually a fairly healthy um herbaceous layer of native vegetation within the vegetated Wetland we noted skunk cabbage ferns um and some other uh junky species within that area so with light root raking we won't disturb that herbaceous vegetation that's dormant now and then we'll be able to add to that with our proposed seed mix um in the second growing season we would then cut the previous growing Seasons um vegetation to the ground we would use a power Scythe or string trimmer we are not proposing to bring Machinery into this area once we remove the vegetation debris that's left behind um this would allow us to also carefully work around the Woody plants that are existing and that we're proposing to um plant into this area um and we would continue that management into the third growing season we would continue to monitor um monitoring reports are required as part of the um enforcement order so we would be submitting the monitoring reports per the schedule um that youve laid out um October 30th in 2025 26 and 27 um and then at that time I think we could then have a discussion with the commission regarding any need for ongoing Management in this area I think we should have good control of the um existing frag mighties and bamboo that's in this area we are always going to have significant pressure from the frag mighties that's located directly to the West so just want to acknowledge that and then I think after after that three that third growing season um we could then adjust the plan and come before the commission with um any you know requirements as far as continuing management if that's necessary so I am happy to answer any questions about the proposal um the proposed plan I think um when I spoke with Britney um her goal was to have to review this with you because we were proposing to make those two changes um mainly not using the single rail fence proposing Woody veg ation instead and um proposing some cutting beyond that area for a few growing Seasons while we get things established well I guess guess I'll start off here I mean I have a couple questions too if you if you need a second no I I I think I've got it but I will I will certainly come back to you in just a minute so it's a this this restoration plan uh is not real clear I I first of all I see no I see no Contours or at least nothing that's that's called out or specified so I I'm a little concerned with that because I'm looking at the at the site and I'm looking at the photos I see where this especially where the grass is coming to you have got that grass Bank you you keep referring to I is that not a Coastal Bank it is not a Coastal Bank as far as I'm understanding they did have the site surveyed um by Land Management Systems we delineated the Bing vegetated Wetland there um so if anything it potentially could be an inland Bank perhaps um I looking at the flood elevation um I am not aware the flood elevation was not the what was required in the enforcement order was that the 35t buffer 50ft buffer and 100 foot buffer be shown and that's what the land surveyors picked up I am showing that slope per my measurement um if you notice um in the area that's tan there are two lines there I went out and measured the top of the slope and the bottom of the slope the bordering vegetated Wetland is north of the toe of that slope so the actual bvw that was delineated based on soils and we did submit the data sheets for that um is the green line that we flagged in the field so that's you can see that it runs through the area that's shaded in blue and then as you move landward or south of that area the tan area then at where the tan area starts and the Blue Area meets is the bottom of the slope just based on my field measurements and then there's a second line that denotes the top of the slope and then the land levels out from there Britney did ask me about topography the surveyors did not pick up toppo because it was not required wired as part of the enforcement order so they only did a they picked up our BBW Flags property lines and then they denoted the buffer zones as was required well I mean I would definitely I I I would definitely say that's a Coastal Bank that's a state it meets the definition of a state Coastal Bank that's beside the the that's that's one issue that I I'm you concerned obviously if the if the enforcement water didn't call out that then you know shame on us maybe but uh my other question then uh relates to what you're you're specifically asking uh about the no fence and trubs instead no way I'm going to prove that it's like that's half the reason what got us into the trouble in the first place uh is that they just kept Mowing and Mowing and mowing so there I I think there needs to be a fence uh delineating uh the two properties and uh I don't see I I just don't see any other way around that um and I you know you're you're also asking about continual continual mowing so I guess my we're sort of like hard a hard place here because we're asking for restoration uh but I don't know that we're talking about ongoing control of invasives on Town property and if we were doing that then I think you would have to file a notice of intent for something like that um so that's that's my my points I'll turn it over to the to the commission for any other comments they might have anybody yeah I think you're your points are well taken it and I don't know if I could add to it just um I'll just leave it at that I would agree with you okay anybody else I'm just wondering that we issued the OC in 2017 and then restoration plan was never provided and the permit expired in 2021 and here we are 2025 and I'm just curious what went on so my understanding is that the homeowners voluntarily took this on the management program on town property because the town property was in severely invaded with bamboo and that boo bamboo was starting to invade their personal property so they worked with the agent at that time to come up with a plan to manage the bamboo on the town property at their expense um and that's that was their goal to manage the bamboo and to prevent the bamboo from moving back into their property and that's what the order of conditions was issued for to allow that to happen um the the bamboo as we all know or maybe we don't know but bamboo is a tenacious species which is very difficult to manage um mowing is not adequate to prevent um that bamboo from coming back um and it has continued to come back and so they've continued to manage that bamboo in that area granted they're acknowledging full well that they did not that their permit expired and that they did not seek additional permits for that mowing but that was how the this originally came about so they were working very closely with the commission back in 2017 and with the agent at that time to um try and manage this bamboo without using um herbicide through a mowing program um that unfortunately like I said when I started my introduction was that um there wasn't a lot of long-term thought I think put into that management plan it was a plan that they um I'm going to use the word concocted I don't know if that's fair but that they developed on their own without input from somebody who has knowledge about managing these particular species um and so that resulted in good results as far as keeping the bamboo at Bay and allowing that herbaceous layer to come back and there is some um like I said there is some clora coming back into this area so there are some native Woody shrubs there's a araceous layer of healthy native vegetation which did not exist prior to the bamboo management we are just trying to jump start that allow this area to regenerate manage the bamboo and the fragm mies that's moving into this area so that we have a thought a wellth thought out long-term management plan um that we're presenting to you I mean as far as the Woody vegetation planted in the buffer zone we feel that a woody vegetated buffer strip is going to provide better protection to the Wetland um as far as managing you know storm water runoff allowing slowing water down allowing it to um infiltrate and be filtered by root systems than a split rail fence um and I understand why the commission is looking for a split rail fence completely um but we were thinking that if we planted Virginia Rose in particular up in that Upland area along the property line that that would certainly discourage anybody from going into that area in the future um and that it would be very visually clear to property owners that this is Town property or this is not their property yeah I I don't agree with that at all I mean I I I fully encourage you to plant as you're as you're indicating there but there's no way I'd approve this plan without putting up uh a fence to to show the exact uh property line because again what's to stop anybody from mowing down the Virginia roads or anything else it's the the fence is not there to do anything uh in terms of storm water pollutant control or anything else it's there to be a physical barrier that says the area Beyond this point is considered protected area you need to stop it and you need to think twice before you go in there with a mower or any doing any kind of of control whatsoever and that's designed for you know something that we can put onto a into an order of conditions or uh enforcing conditions that will continue on uh you know beyond this homeowner if you know if it comes down sometime down the line the homeowner sells there's a way at least then to say oh I see this fence maybe I should think before I before I start mowing in into the area so anyhow that's my thought thr leaves anything else from the commission Joe I I know I wasn't but me I was out there there's an extensive area behind the property line is now marked isn't it it's yes it has been marked by the surveyors yeah and so there's this extensive area behind it it's all mowed and that's what we're proposing to plant yeah but I I I just don't okay um and it's as Town property I I I don't know if I I don't know if I was on the commission when this was first brought up but I sort of remember some of it I mean you're here for the enforcement order yeah the enforcement order was you know more had to do with the fence and all the rest of it and not don't cut somebody else property and the whole deal I kind of remember that that was just in October yeah yeah okay so time fli I don't you know but the thing is the um what about that uh you're calling it the the um the wet Meadow yes recently like grav lead or something right it was the bamboo was mowed in that area yes that's why we're here so that whole big area that that was the original management area from the 2017 order of conditions as well as the area of fragment s um behind lot 14 so those areas were being regularly managed per the order of conditions that was issued in 2017 to manage that frag mes and the bamboo that was in that area so that's where this project started um and that was done um in conjunction with approval from the Conservation Commission and working closely with the agent at that time I that's where I'm having a yeah if I can just interject we were a wait wait down there you just have to come up and identify yourself ition that was the original order of conditions um if you just identify yourself oh I'm sorry I'm Nancy Carboni um we were not allowed to bring any equipment other than hand Cutters so there was no Gravely we hire five men that go down there with it's like a string you know like a weed whacker but on the end of it is a blade yeah I know yeah so we weren't allowed to put any wheels down there that was the order of conditions we never have so they've just been cutting it by hand which is obviously much more labor intensive and it did cost more but we followed it as they said and we agreed to that okay that was all I just wanted to correct on that no perfect thank you yeah so anything else from my commissioner turn it over to Joe if you have any any further comments Joe yeah so first of all can I just ask what the objection to the fence is is it just aesthetically not pleasing is that the am I to talk if you introduce yourself yourself just the layout of the the Lots it's a lot of expense for something that isn't really providing a lot it's a tremendous amount of fencing and there is a lot of area around this particular piece of property that the town owns that has ESS to it beyond my property and my fence on my property isn't really stopping much as um as you see to the right of this property is over all open land that the town owns and it's very easily AC accessed by uh that area so yeah aesthetically it's very unpleasing to have this railroad track of fencing going through my property that as you you've been to my property you see that I maintain it very well I spend a lot of money keeping that property up I pay a lot of taxes in this town everything that we've done here was to mitigate the bamboo first and foremost it is an amazing plant all the way into our foundation it will grow through uh and it you can cover the entire lawn with black silt U the material and it will grow through it because photosynthesis will take a the sun and the energy from a plant 500 feet away and send it and grows and it will grow 8 feet in one season I had to cut it I was at war with this stuff it is just unbelievable I cut that stuff three times a season if I didn't my whole my entire property would be covered with bamboo and that's I am not exaggerating one iota so you know we offered to really reconstitute the entire Wetlands be well beyond what the order and condition uh has stipulated that we do in in L of putting the fence up it's not just you know and and I want to make that clear and we will do anything that you ask us to do as far as planting I I'll spend the money to to make it right we just we we really don't want to see the fence uh every day I don't know how many feet it is do you remember 199 ft Fen I mean it's it's a lot it's it's said uh so if if you were to put in planting in Li of a fence would it be on your side of the property of the property line or we'll put it on our property okay because really my main issue and I think Britney kind of agrees with me here is that um the reason we wanted to see the Topo is because it does appear like this could have been a bank right and the only reason it doesn't look like a more natural what you would picture as a wetland delineation it's because it's being mowed for so long and when you look at the delineation that I I know you had done professionally but I mean in what reality does a wetland come to a peak like that and then Branch out like that's that seems unrealistic well the B the the slope is there so that's at the toe of the slope on the frag Mighty side un lot 14 and that is the way so I'm I'm presuming and I don't know the history of this area you probably all know it better than I do I don't know if at some point this was cranberry bog this was being managed as cranberries that's what what it looks like to me this could have been back in you know 1899 to 1907 when the cranberry industry was booming here um but that is what it appears there's a ditch system throughout here um so that's how it appears to me so I would say that is not a that is a man-made feature man-made to topography not natural topography um again because of its status as BBW um I don't know if this would be considered an Inland Bank um as far as the slope although yes the bvw we we delineated the bvw obviously with lack of vegetation this was done completely on soils and um those soils soil logs and data sheets were submitted yeah Joe could you on your one slide that shows the mowing yes uh don't let me lose this picture though because I want to come back to it oh you want to do it go ahead actually yeah if I if I could real quick Jack um this picture is actually taken from the post at the basically at the peak of uh 14 I think or 20 where where it comes out a little bit further and it just doesn't it doesn't seem to follow that sharp grade that the plan shows it seems at the very least to be rounded um and that's why it just seems awfully convenient that none of the planting that's proposed according to this plan comes onto the property line like that it's we we requireed 20 ft of planting buffer uh from the delineated Wetland and that like narrowest spot right there is just barely 20 feet and it just seems awfully convenient I'm not you know I'm again not trying to lay blame or anything but to to my eyes that's what it looks like I'm losing where on that planting plan is that slide you the pro my my picture yeah uh so I believe believe I was at this point right here okay when I took this picture and then the picture of the long mode area that is this one this is that is basically that's a little bit further back let me look at the uh plan that's from this stake right here where uh 14 and 20 meet and it goes to the left I mean to the right the right yeah I was looking to the right to get that yeah that area that that was but isn't there also to the left of yeah Bank yes but I was actually trying to find a picture that showed it that shows a little bit Yeah but it's um and the the the wellend is pretty well like it is flagged right on the frag Mighty Line but again like it's it kind of follows the bank but you know it's um this picture doesn't really show how much space there is between the frag mighties and where the bank starts it's it's very the the fragm is right at the toe of the slope in that area yes remember that yeah so that was oh there you go you can see yeah frag is basically on this lot the the Western lot follows pretty much right along the bank and I mean the reason the fragm is in that location is because it's being mowed um regularly to keep the frag mitees from marching Upland and Inland so um and and that I think is the exact point that if the frag mes hadn't been mowed would the Wetland then be delineated all the way into the carbon yard we know fragm will grow into the Upland areas and the and the the Wetland was delineated based on soils so so hydric soils so that's how the Wetland was delineated that's fair yeah um and the frag mitees will continue to grow up into the Upland area if it's not kept at Bay the the carbonis would like to be able to mow their lawn to keep the fragm myties from coming into their yard from the town property and to keep the bamboo from coming into the town property uh coming into their yard from the town property so um so on this where is the property line uh it's I'm I'm off the property line here so you can't it's hard to see the flags but the property line is is you see the these flags here the property line on whatever that Western lot is and point it out on the map I mean on the plan oh on the plan yeah we planted right up to the between the Lots when I took that picture so I'm somewhere somewhere around here taking that picture to the left so so there is there is the plan the plan scale is 1 in equals 30 yes um so there is um so there is I measured um out in the field I mean there's about 20 ft yeah and then it gets wider As you move more East As you move East so they've been mow so so it is true that the that the carbonis have been mowing to keep the frag mes to the edge of that slope um we know that once we stop that stops mowing the frag mes will move its way into that area um the cabon would like to keep the fragm mies out of their property so they would like to continue to maintain and mow their property okay so again so what what did the enforcement order ask you to do ask so the yes it did it asked us to remove the debris that was number one um no land no debris um in the air area to submit copies of professionally prepared restoration plan um with a planting protocol to indicate the property lines and all jurisdictional areas and including the 35t 50ft and 100t buffer from the Wetland resource areas that for a single rail fence and sign denoting the conservation property shall be put up along the property line and maintained and this is where we're proposing to do the shrubs instead that native species trees shrubs Ground Covers flowers incorporated into the revegetation planting plant plan be approved by the conservation staff um selected from a list of approved species um that the proposed spacing for each plant or plant type will in general adhere to Horticultural industry standards which we've prepared no mulch allowed within the restoration planting except at the time of planting under the drip line which we're proposing um they want the full restoration plan has to be completed by May 25th 2025 prior to the start of work applicant shall convene an on-site meeting with the contractor consultant and conservation staff um irrigation and consultation with staff annual reports um number 12 is there shall be no cutting or mowing beyond the fence um 13 failure to meet any deadlines listed above result in issuance of additional forcement and clearing or pruning of vegetation within the restoration planting area is prohibited except for the removal of storm damaged limbs that may um break but that may impact newly planted specimens so that those were the two specific pieces that we were looking to speak to you about so my question then is where in that enforcement order does it say anything about doing any further inv basis control or management it does not and so why would we that's why I'm saying it because we're considering we're considering long-term management that's going to better protect the resource area and that's what we're proposing I I think that's I think this is where we have to draw the line because I mean I I don't think we well and I don't want to see you doing any more work on Town property at this point I I want you to restore it like what the what the enforcement order says and then don't touch it and if you want to mow your lawn mow your lawn if you if some if something grows into your into your yard you know mow it that's that's fine but I don't understand why we are moving on to telling a private citizen to come on to town property and do continued invasive management my my only answer to that is because they had an order of conditions with the support of the Conservation Commission in 2017 that encouraged them to do that at their expense um and they did um and they and unfortunately you know they've continued to mow beyond the order of conditions but they originally engaged this whole project started with support of the Conservation Commission to do invasive species management so now they're only continuing to maintain what they've done according to what I'm reading here it says a restoration plan on 2017 was never provided so the work they must have done I assume was done without you said Consulting the uh administrator at the time but yeah there were orders in or sorry conditions within that order that were not followed we understand that there were conditions that were not met the area was supposed to be Revit that's that is true and that was one of the issues that the certificate of compliance was not issued because those three specific conditions were not met um from the original order of conditions I went into the uh 2017 paperwork there was a plan submitted that was pictures and text and it may not have been accepted it wasn't probably it was probably done by the owner I don't know but it there is something called a s 2017 plan sorry does it show does it show shows plants to be planted there and the pictures I don't think it has a map were 710 plugs planted that were eaten by deer and rabbits yes yeah so you're looking atck and the administrator back in your fish I'd have to if you want to pull up the chair all right so there you are that's the original yeah is that acceptable plan I don't know you know they may or may not have accepted as a plan well she I do I have I have email messages from the administrator at the time it was accepted but and then we went over the plants and the planting was done unsuccessfully with the 700 110 plugs okay and there is a picture of the plants that you chose I think yes there is that was submitted all to the administrator at the time be murky but and part of that original order of conditions was uh ongoing maintenance to keep the invasives back but again that was my yeah I'll take full responsibility I didn't realize I had to um close it out I thought it just expired and it was explained to me because I said we're going to do all this work all this time all this money how are we going to keep this back and she said you will have ongoing permission to maintain the invasives so I in my head of course it expired right when Co hit and then um I never got a letter saying I needed to close it out until 2023 which is when I addressed it right away so that was that I take full responsibility I'd never done this before I didn't realize you had to officially close it out um and so and then that administrator had left so we weren't communicating anymore okay so Joe we you're you're asking us to approve this plan is that what you're uh is that what we're supposed to be doing with this or no I think um the question was whether we should request a new plan that has the fence uh and the contour lines so we could better kind of understand that that bank question um I think that's where we stand I mean I I think I think there is a bank there I don't know if it if it really amounts to anything in the long I mean in the overall scheme of things I don't know if that in this particular case the presence or absence of a bank really plays into it I want to say I have less uh Pro few problem with the um fence and if they if they come up with a planting plan that's acceptable to Joe and Britney I just want to put that out there that I have less of a problem with the fence and and I would agree if if you propose putting in plantings instead of a fence we would have to see a plan for that well we did submit one you did with yeah so that's what this plan is that's this is what this plan is yes this is a complete plan yes so we're proposing to PL D are you are you are you good with this plan without uh doing the fence and everything else that's associated with it I'm good with this plan without the fence as long as Britney and Joe approve the plantings I can't I'm so I I could just go over the plantings very quickly I wait till she comes back okay I I know yeah that's fine um I just didn't know if you'd want to know what the plantings are okay to be honest we probably go right through my head right okay understood um otherwise um I'd like to see the um the Contours too and I and I want to get a feeling for that slope and what exactly that is so I'm just putting out the fact that I would accept plantings doesn't mean I'd accept everything else so you want to see a a revised plan the the this is in general okay but you want to see the addition of Contours that yeah and approval of the plantings by Joe and Britney okay so at this point me I don't know about the other people is that what everybody else well with this this include the um Mowing and maintenance of town property the the planting plan that was submit it does uh our goal is to that yeah our goal is to give the restaurant planting a fighting chance if we don't continue to manage the bamboo and the frag mighties that's regenerating in this area we won't be able to get anything established we need to give them at least three growing Seasons to establish and get this Niche filled in with Native vegetation to try and at least hold back I think we can get control of the bamboo we're always going to have pressure from the fragm mies because the fragm is so significant throughout this whole salt marsh area so um I do think that but at least we'll have an opportunity if we are able to manage while we're getting these plants established to get um to get something reestablished in this bordering vegetated Wetland that isn't invasive somewhere in here didn't you talk about mowing just once a year we that's all that we'd be proposing to do is mow once a year we're not talking about mowing on a weekly monthly basis we're talking about mowing once yearly because that's really all we need to prevent that from reg talking let's say we approve the uh plant the shrubs inside of the fence you're talking about on the um mowing on the um on the town property side of the of the just just in the area shaded in blue which is the bordering vegetated Wetland area so we're planting in so we're originally planting in clusters in groupings that will allow us to manage in between those group clusters of shrubs without mowing any of the proposed shrubs or any of the existing native Woody shrubs how far in do you think you have to go in that area we're going to the um if if the pictures are shown back up there's there's a very um solid wooded Edge um in that area where the and the ditch runs right behind it um and so it's yes so you can see there's a solid wooded Edge so we would be mowing just in that just to that area just to the front of the where the trees are I think in between right now there's some trees in between we're also proposing additional trees in here we're proposing to plant red maple um and a a Sweet Bay Magnolia um in this area but yes we would be proposing to manage but then it becomes a solid line of vegetation and we would not be proposing to manage anything beyond what was previously um mowed and managed for the bamboo yes so you can see there's a very solid line of vegetation we would not be intruding into that I guess my question you know do we have the authority to allow the maintenance of town property in this manner it seems to me we we don't well I think if they're cing it as a limited effort in order to help establish the restoration then yes we do have the authority to allow that to to go on right whether or not we want to continue you know down the line that would be that's something else we have to think about the thought is that you know because it's pretty extensive I mean you're talking about 177,000 Square ft wet metal restoration um that's enormous in terms of um and you know I guess you should be applauded in a way for wanting to take that on but it just seems that it's um a a incredible um precedent um certainly bamboo and fragm might is not fun there's a lot of it around but is this what we do we just we did approve um something over by mil Creek with town to they had fragm mitties on their property and they wanted to also take it down on uh but they that's a treatment kind of a method though not a mowing method well that's that would be mowing mowing can be considered a treatment it's not the best management practice for for bamboo control I thought it almost um makes the the the the plant even stronger in terms of its um coming back so I I do I do want to be clear we are proposing to do some selective systemic herbicide on those the regenerating bamboo and the frag mighties and that is maintain that's what we were planning on doing initially to maintain so the the mowing for the next three growing Seasons would just be to prevent and also to allow us to see any resprouting frag or any res sprouting bamboo so we could treat it very quickly um it's you know I mean it's sort of kind of sneaks in and Pops its way up I think is you know running from the root system so I don't suspect we're going to get 100% control the returning bamboo in one growing season we're going to need a couple of growing Seasons to get it out of there but the later treatment is not shown in your plan um this so what we think is once we do the the initial systemic treatment then we'll do a mow and then if we see anything coming we'd immediately treat it that is shown in the plan that's in here yes it is in the Land Management plan and that would be after the first year or it would be so we would treat actually we would would we would seed the area this this winter because then with the goal and have it planted in May of 2025 then we would treat the bamboo this summer um I think the big thing about this is the timeline is is we're just trying to meet the timeline that's laid out in the um enforcement order and then I also want to make clear that we are required to submit under this enforcement order monitoring reports yearly in October through 2027 and so that we would then at that time if anything further needed to happen we would come back before the commission with the proper filing for that but you would not you would come back to the Joe and to uh before you did any kind of chemical treatment we have to it's required that we meet out with the agent on the site before we do any work on this site yes but again I mean chemical treatment is a standard practice for for controlling and again you would have to at least in order to help establish the the native planting so that's the goal but again that would be that would also be and that would also involve the the meeting a site meeting with the with the administrator so yes and you mentioned that bamboo the best management practice isn't necessarily mowing do you do you know what the best management practice for bamboo is I mean again I'd go to that but I would truth best management practice for bamboo would be to to excavate it which is which is not going to be appropriate for this bordering vegetated Wetland so that's why the next best opport option would be to selectively treat it with herbicide yeah well I would beg to sort of disagree not disagree but in fact there's a lot of digging out being done on swamps around the cape that so you know at some point but this would be low on their priority list I think so and I would not as as a restoration ecologist and and designer I would not recommend Excavating the bordering vegetated Wetland no I was going to say who are you talking about well mostly I'm talking about you know Cranberry Bogs and things or yeah I yes this the this cranberry bog days are over on here and I would I would definitely not recommend U mechanical removal that's there's so many different exceptions associated with cranberry can't compare those are apples and oranges okay so what are we doing so so I'm what I'm hearing from the board is that you like to see a revised plan showing Contours uh and that's that's what you're looking for and the plan things for me but the plan things are what they're that's what they're they're going to propose you just need to wait till until Here sign off from Britney and Joe so at this point you just need to come back with a revised plan that shows those shows the Contours okay and then we'll come back for a final I already oh you did I think wants to say something do I have a motion to continue forev com oh sorry I just wanted to just clarify one comment that Joe had said when I was speaking you had mentioned you want to see uh the plantings come on to our property as well right that to my mind um and again I'm I'm below Britney on this so she would have to weigh in obviously but to my mind more planting coming onto your property is preferable to the planting plan as it exists now because it gives us more buffer um but the but the Contour would help us kind of decide what's appropriate there too because I do think that would help so we we could talk about that okay yeah I just wanted to go back to that thank you okay so do I have a motion to continue to um do you need a how much time do you need how do you know um they've already reached out to the land surveyor thinking that this might I just didn't get his timeline on when he could come back and do that but he said he could do it so I can find that out soon a month would be be good yes thanks so that would be the first meeting in March March 6 March 6 okay fantastic continue to March 6 for the revised plan so moved second all those in favor opposed thank you unanimously thank you for your time this evening thank you thank you for your time all right final enforcement order for Ronald and noene seran 22 television Lane unpermitted fill and resource area L to Coast storm Flowage which diverts floodwater uh Joe you want to give us a quick rundown on this uh yeah it's pretty simple um we noticed that there was this new burm in place along the road uh in their driveway here for 22 television Lane and looking back on older Aerials it used to be flat and had a a couple of shrubs there so this unauthorized fill obviously is going to change the flow of flood water and possibly divert it onto neighbors's lawn so we would like to see it removed so returned back to the original condition okay and so that's that's what it is we just need to you need to do you would certainly need to add a a time time frame so if you introduce yourselves no serving and Ron serving okay we lived in the property uh We've owned the property for 25 years and lived there full-time for the last 10 um I work out of the home one of the main reasons we started to do this and we have pictures to show you was not because of the water because we can show you what the water looks like can we show we didn't realize that you could do this but we have pictures before and after to show you that there's no change in the flooding the flooding is horrific there before and this is after so it could show you that the same pictures they're all the same the main reason why we started doing it was because the people walking through our property and going to the back house back street is ridiculous because the playground and the actual uh tennis courts are behind our are on the street behind us and you can see we have a big picture window I work remotely from home for Boston Medical and they literally walk by my place we tried putting a fence back down out there behind so they couldn't get through they just walk over it so our only hope was to build this so they couldn't climb over it with their beach chairs and everything okay I mean so you could see where there is no change in the water the association is working on trying to come up with some plans on how to get rid of the water we're not encroaching on anybody because every house around us is a mansion everybody built up yeah we are the lowest on the world around us I understand why you're doing why you what you were trying to do with it uh it doesn't it doesn't give you any special right because somebody's no I understand I understand a trespassing on your property um you know I mean but it isn't changing the water we're the water all that gravel is taking our water there's no question about that and as you can see it's on the pictures it hasn't really Chang there's a lot of water that comes in I'm sure you you've been through the neighborhood and it just walked there a lot and I've noticed that and the two houses on next to us are like this so I'm so as much as anything I'm I mean if I can't do it I mean what do I do put up a fence I don't know around my whole property I sort of don't want to do that I mean I'm one of six people who live there permanently around so I I mean I again I understand what's going on with it um I but I you know you you certainly have done something without the necessary and I apologize and honestly I listened to what Paul said and I thought well then I'm stupid because we thought we were 120 ft away from the pond behind us that we could do this we thought you were able to do something that was 18 to 24 in and ours is like 18 Ines we just thought we were doing landscaping we're going to put hydranges on it come this spring to build it up a little more I mean it was not in any Weir thought we were going to stop the water from coming on the house it's it's has it's been twice in 10 years it's encroached on my property the water I mean I think I think the photos certainly speak for themselves in terms of in terms of water management so uh again what I I don't know how the rest of the commission feels uh I think the enforcement order because we have to move you forward somehow the enforcement order uh is asking that you remove the the fill and return it to original conditions and I would say that we should give them a a a definite date of say I don't know like June June 30th um so there's nothing we can do to keep it in order oh sorry sorry I apologize keep my mouth shut uh you could also amend we can amend the order to to say it e that way you either remove it by and and return to original conditions by June 30th or you can seek permitting right or what you have and do it other after the fact filing uh but I will tell you right now that there is no guarantee just because you leave it and you seek permitting does not mean that you'd get permission and you could end up spending time and money on on plans that ultimately still ends up in the same place where the commission says no you have to you have to pull it out um personally I'm willing because it is only flood zone that we're talking about uh I'm willing to give a little bit that way I I I so I I I'm willing to at least give you the chance to try and permit it again I can't gu without seeing everything and saying a plan I can't guarantee one way or the other I'm not saying that I gu that I that I agree with it or that I would even be be willing to permit it but I'm willing to give you the chance to try that permitting if you want to do that given the fact that you also understand understand that there's a significant cost that's involved with producing plans and going through the permitting process means getting anine may not end up in your favor anyhow yeah so it means getting an engineer you would uh let's see this would this this would yeah because it's a it's change of Contour so it would be a it would be a notice of intent what is the pro I mean so we get an engineer and then present an engineer plan to you guys I would come you would come before him with what's called a notice of intent uh it requires the stamped engineer plan uh those are they they will be expensive I I I don't want to again I I don't want to give you false hope and I don't want to I don't want you to understand that so we have to price a significant outlay of money and time and you know if you're talking about that you're probably looking at four four or five months to get an engineer to even come out and look and then another probably month to at two months after that to to do it okay I think it go through the permitting do we need permitting to just put up a fence a much smaller permit yes it would be it would be far far far cheaper and and um far easier uh fencing in the flood zone uh depending on the kind of fence you'd be talking about are you talking about like a a split rail fence would you would you be looking at that kind of fence I don't know I probably match what I already have out there and I don't think that's a split reel is it no it's U or you can see you can't can't see you can see one your properties just a regular uh see we have white fencing that was just covering our uh yeah that's that's a little bit harder because it it potentially diverts water also and I know I know that's not your intent and that it doesn't look like it's ever happened but you don't know what future storms could potentially bring which is why we exist yeah exactly that's what we're looking at but that's why you know we we want these types of things permitted is so that people who have experience looking at these kinds of things know if it's going to affect flood waters in the future so I I but I'm sympathetic to your situation is what I'm trying to say I mean I can tell you right now that if you do a split rail if you return the area to normal to to original and you and you want to do a split rail fence I'm ready to tell you you can do that right now okay I that I can guarantee you okay uh if you want to try and do anything else it's going to create permitting uh and it's it it may not go in your favor I I you know I can't speak for the for the commission and the commission can't really give you an opinion because we don't have anything to look at and assess at this point so okay so um so I guess what are we agreeing that we'll get it down by June 30th or or I don't know I that's what I'm saying I I think the commission you know I don't want to speak for them and if if they don't agree you guys need to tell me to shut up what I would say is I I would be willing to amend the enforcement order uh to say either remove it and return to original conditions by June 30th or file a notice of of intent seeking a f an after theact filing with no guarantee that there there will be any success uh but you could do that by I would say probably probably have to say by like maybe a August 1 I I I don't think you're G to get get uh stuff done much much sooner than that we know by then if you know we'd be working through the process yeah if and if we give you until August 1 if you come up with something sooner that you can let us yeah you can come in earlier and if you decide to say you know what it's too much it's going to cost us too much money for for no no real benefit or no no guarantee that we're going to get something we're going to go back and we're going to pull it and pull it out and we're going to put a fence up like I said if you do a split rail fence and I'm just so you know if we get an engineered I'm a little confused I guess if we get an engineered plan there's no guarantee that that that you'll approve an engineer plan because everybody guarantee that we'll approve the work the engineer plan you know if you get an engineer an engineer that will do a stamp or you can do a a professional uh land surveyor who can who can stamp a plan those are the only two people that could that would be able supp plan so if you get a stamp plan would that being more or less a stamp plan is just that's just your ability to come before us to even have us consider it but we could deny it even with the just because of the stamp plan the stamp plan only guarantees that the work that that you're you're saying and that you're asking for is uh is a legitimate and and meets the certain site specific criteria uh but there's no guarantee just because you have an engineer plan doesn't mean that you would automatically get the approval of the project yeah that gets you as far as coming before the board but as you saw at the previous situations we we could negotiate with you and talk about what we like what we don't like what we'd like to see change that kind of thing but hypothetically if if we present a plan with you don't you like what we're hearing in the early meetings would you say yeah Ron and oen this is okay but you need to do this this and this to make the plan work we could or we could say there's no hope for you or or yeah I mean we could say R noan sorry you know yeah I you made a valiant effort but no we we we can't we can't permit it that engineer as they're developing that plan they might also tell you there's no way to do it without diverting storm water and that would kind of answer that question as well before it even came here um I guess my problem is is that that everybody along us was approved to go up and you know raise the change they change the whole topography that's why we have such significant flooding in the street which is one of one of the things that that that was the impetus behind us uh trying to give a little bit more teeth to the to the flood to to flood plane regulations for the town is that because that that's that's unfortunately often the case what what happens is under the State Building Code and under the state Wetlands protection act people were building up but they were building up by either you know some most of the time by bringing in Phil which then would end up diverting problem storm water okay uh and that was one of the impetus behind us trying to give a little bit more thought into into why what are we doing in the flood zone um so you know I mean it's it's it's just not going to be any easier going forward um yeah but like I said it if if you want us to do it that way we can certain I I I think I think it's worthwhile for us at least I just have a question um you know I I know there's well I don't know I I would assume there's a homeowners association over there you know and usually homeowners associations have say in terms of what people can do or not do with their property they don't they don't okay because I was the reason I asked the question is because I I was wondering if if if they did if you had to go before the homeowners association and do they bear any responsibility for allowing something to be placed like a BM in front of a house and if they did you know maybe there would be some there was a time the association did years ago because we bought the house 25 years ago and it seemed like even to paint a color we needed approval Etc I'm very surprised that there is yeah but I think over time with lawsuits Etc people the association really sort of lost most of its but they are responsible for the road right I'm sorry they are responsible for the road and the they are responsible for the road but they don't like to take responsibility they're doing the best they can it's a that's what I'll say they're doing the best they can and they're trying to do something about it and we're seeing some movement for the first time since we've been there so I'm not going to diss the board right now okay maybe later maybe in a year if I'm still sitting here like oh but no I think they're trying to do the best they can with the roads and with everything that's happened but you know they had no control on the houses is being built either you know so let me hear from the rest of the board what how do you want to go with this I I like the idea of um as you suggested the what was it the uh return it to its previous state by the end of June such and such a or give them the opportunity to seek permitting exactly with no guarantee that you would get it okay yes appreciate I think that's fair yeah I would certainly go along with that as well me too thank you fair with every yep all right can we say appreciate your time August 7th so we're landing on a hearing date you want to go back yeah go go a week before that sorry two weeks before that to to do so whatever two weeks July what's the second would be the 17th so you would have to file the notice of intent by July 24th Thursday so the meeting would be on the 17th but shouldn't we file it before June 30th because we're not going we're going to be holding off or no that's not how it works I feel stupid we we have to realistically give you a little bit more time because the engineers there's no there's no way they're going to get out of no I then file the oh we won't file the intent until we know what we're doing got it and diagram and if you need help that's what Joe is here for and that's what Britney's for shouldn't say that my husband would be at your door every day so be the only one so it's okay so so listen to the listen to the uh the the motion so I I'm do I have a motion to amend the enforcement order to uh order either by what did you say July 17th by June oh 30th 30th to remove the fill and return the site to original condition or you may seek to permit the the the uh the the work by fining an after Thea notice of intent with the commission with no guarantee of of success by what they say July July 24th is two weeks before our July 24th 2025 by filing the notice of intent by July 24th okay thank you very much thanks so much we appreciate your time if you change your mind at some point you know you can always come back and say okay you know we're just going to get rid of it and and we can move forward like if we research it can we just talk to talk to Joe yeah talk to Joe and just say hey we're gonna by June email or call the department I I'm happy to answer any question I have a motion to that effect sorry thank you is there a second I'll second you have a all those in favor carries n okay picture back you can keep though that's why you can have them I'll add them to your file so that you can take mine would go be thrown away I can't keep too I have so much paper from this oh yeah I walk um I live over by um Bayberry and Wier over that area so I walked to Seal Beach and down there down the beach and then that's a nice area but then there was some work being done around the corner from you that I wanted to look at and uh they putting in a new septic I think way around and it was that looks like like a castle Yeah and it was hard for me to get around because of all that water I was shocked about that castle have you seen him you mean how tall it is the castle well I always wonder how they get around the 35 foot height in this town no I me the septic system oh no that I didn't see look like a castle no I didn't see that it's want these pictures thank you very much oh you've been there 25 years you buy from Tom Powers Yeah I bought it from Tom Powers remember those days and we went and lived in yarmouthport to raise the kids because there's no kids over there when our last kid went off to college we moved in fulltime yeah we were lucky to buy it 30 years ago I liked it better then yeah I liked it when they were all little cabin growing up that's why we kept our small that's why we rented there for years before we bought thank you thanks again thank you remember when that something Market July sorry July 4th 2025 okay so here's the new that's the new uh motion all right let's bring this meeting to a close with the approval of the meeting minutes for January 16 2025 I wasn't here so I have to I was here I was fine I I move is everybody else everybody is there second I'll second okay okay all those in favor I opposed and one suspension uh carries unan carries carries with three to Z with one abion no there are four you voted V three vot sorry four voters my God man that's why I'm here just to correct you that's that's what you're supposed to do uh amended eagerly eagerly I keep a track at home see wording that was David and all right uh any other business not reasonably anticipated what at this time at this time you should be saying no okay there's no other thing all set Joe you got everything done yes all right uh do I have a motion to adjourn so moved is there a second second all those in favor opposed carries unanimously We Stand adjourned at 7:48 p.m.