Recording in progress. >> Okay. Good evening. Is this on? >> Yeah, I think so. >> Good evening. Uh, welcome to the August 7th meeting of the Conservation Commission. Um, we have a number of
obviously important items today as you can see from the crowd. So, we ask that you cooperate with us and we'll move uh we'll move along. Um, our first order of business is with Jan Butler from the Yarmouth Seaside Festival Committee post
fireworks and pollution control plan for the seaside festival at Seagull Beach in October. you could introduce yourself and go. >> Jen Butler, founder chair of the Yama Seaside Festival. >> You tell us um what you're here for and
what your proposal is. >> Okay. Um for the past two years, we have had the first um issues with the Yarm Seaside Festival fireworks. We have put them on for 45 years without any issues at all
whatsoever. Two years ago, um our fireworks always go off at 8:00 and I got a call that they had to go off a half hour early because um there was an astronomical high tide and there was
a wind pushing the water up on the beach and we were going to lose $40,000 worth of fireworks. So they decided to set them off before we lost the show. What happened was the tide came in. They cleaned up what they could. Um and the
next day there was some debris on the beach because this had never happened in the past. Um I never even gave it a thought to check the beach. And I will take full responsibility. I was in the process of finishing up the
three-day festival events and it never crossed my mind. Last year, um we did have an issue um because shortly after the display was shot. Um there was
a full high tide and the um shells did not have time to disintegrate and so the tide brought the shells on the beach. When I got a call that there was a mess at the beach from the fireworks, um I personally
went down and walked the beach and picked up every piece of fireworks display that I could. Um and I did notice that there were these little pieces of plastic ribbon and some were pink and some were yellow. So I we
picked those up and um so to alleviate any issues for this year, we have gone to um great lengths to try and rectify our mistakes to protect our wetlands and our beaches. We do not want
to hurt anything. Um but we really would love to have this tradition continue. Um so to address these issues we have discussed the plastic ribbon issue with our pyrochnic company and they have indicated that only a small number of
the shelves that they use have the plastic pieces and that they would manually remove those plastic ribbons on those shelves before they're they're used. So that will alleviate any plastic
ribbons on the beach. Um the pyro technics will be responsible for cleaning up their area um which is usual before they leave the site. Yamoth Fire Department assists. Um,
their truck is there with their spotlight and they stay there until all the fireworks um, equipment has been removed from the beach and they go back at first light to check to make sure that the beach is cleaned and there are
no residual effects of our show. Um, we did request permission to use the DPW beach cleanup because we figured that they had the most experience in that process, but due to the holiday, um, there could be a staffing issue. So
rather than depend on that the might or might not um we have made arrangements with Eric Cooper Landscaping and he has um agreed to be on the beach with his crew the next morning and manually walk
the beach to pick up all firework display debris. Um, if by any chance we had to use our rain date, Eric Cooper is prepared to go on Tuesday as opposed to the Monday after the
fireworks show. Um, we are hoping that the DPW Beach Creek crew would be available to clean up the regular 3-day holiday issues um from beachgoers for on Tuesday because they would be back at work. Um but we will
take full responsibility to make sure that everything is cleaned up from our dis our debris um on Monday after the festival after the fireworks show. Um other than that if you have any questions
please feel free to ask. I will do the very best I can. Um the fireworks has been a tradition for well 46 years and it's an integral part of the festival and um we certainly don't want to hurt
our wetlands in any way or our beaches. Um and are prepared to work with you to to make sure that everything is safe. >> Questions from the commission. >> Question. Um you keep talking about the firework debris. How about the debris
from all the people who are attending the fireworks? Is that part of >> Well, I don't for you people to because they said there was tons. There was tons of trash left. That's how it was written up. Wasn't >> you have a couple of pieces of ribbon.
>> We have many Well, I I don't There weren't tons that I know of of fireworks debris. I don't know that the the festival committee, we're a volunteer committee of 12 citizens. We raised the money. We put this on. It costs over
$111,000 last year. And it's a free event for everyone in this town. And it has been a gift to this town. Our businesses make money off of it. Our local vendors make money. Our crafters make money. And
it's a town community event. And if you have a Memorial Day weekend, who cleans it up? If you have a Fourth of July weekend, who cleans up the beach? But because I have fireworks one night, I'm responsible for the whole town beach
cleanup. That doesn't seem fair. I love your fireworks. I love your seaside festival. It's one of my happiest days. But but the the town cleans up their beaches each day at the end of the day, don't they? Of their
regular debris. That's all I'm trying to say. Well, >> it's happened two years in a row and the amount of what they complained about the amount of trash. That's >> Well, the first year we we that was our era. This time we did go and clean up
our festival debris, our fireworks debris. I didn't see any trash from the beach of festival goers. I mean, people go down there around 4 or 5:00 in the evening. There's no food available. They have We have the fireworks. It goes off
for about 20 minutes and then they leave. So after a three-day long weekend, would the festival be responsible for cleaning the entire beach and pay for that? >> I do I do want to say that I walk
Seagull Beach three to four times a week. Mhm. >> And I picked up easily four or five trash bags worth of cardboard, plastic, and not ribbons, but um one other item.
Um and um so even if you did pick it up, there's there are pieces this big and plastic this big. And where do they go in high tide? They go back into the ocean. Right. So, I'm I'm a little bothered by the fact that you say you
picked up ribbons, but there was much more than that. I literally picked up five white >> Oh, I did as well. It's a >> You could have done it the next day because I was there the next day and the next day and the next day picking it up. My wife was with me and >> Britney could contest that I was there.
>> Let me finish, please. Um I I picked up the debris. Uh it was cardboard, plastic, and metal litter littering from the um uh jetty down towards the first or second lifeguard station, right? Where they let them go. My question
always is, okay, so that's what's on the beach. What's in the ocean? >> Well, there was no metal from our fireworks. >> Well, there was a lot of metal there and there was no metal in the rest of the beach. So, there has to be metal from someplace with the fireworks. Well, I
will check into that fact. >> Um, but my fear is what goes into the ocean. What plastic? What cardboard? And let's just leave those two things and forget the metal. Even though I >> plastic is going to be eliminated. And >> how's the plastic being eliminated? >> They are manually going to take them off
the shells. >> You're talking about ribbons. >> There. It's a plastic ribbon that's attached to the shell. >> I saw more than a few ribbons or plastic. It was plastic >> because last year we didn't know that they were there. I >> Well, that's that's >> because I walked the beach last year and
I did pick up trash bags full. >> Well, I you know, I wasn't the only one who picked it up. I know Britney was over there looking too. >> I was with Britney. >> Other questions? Yes. Um, I understand that uh that we'll uh be requiring um a
signed pollution control plan and um I have in front of me a letter from you. Uh and I just want to make sure that this is not what you consider uh a pollution control plan. It's dated August 7th. We basically do a narrative
of what happened and uh sort a path forward. I don't believe this is um a control plan that that we wish for that would have >> that's correct. Just because you have a narrative there and and you list some options. I do I am going to request that you sign a piece of paper with your
actual plan for the commission to approve um because you have some options in this that we're not quite sure from this piece of paper what you're actually going to do. So that's what we will be recommending. >> Okay. Thank you. I just didn't I didn't think this constituted. It sounds like the pollution control plan will consist
of removal of the plastic pieces and hiring and you did hire Cooper Landscaping to come out and we'll just need to know how many people and when they'll be going out to the beach to do the cleanup if you're proposing the night of or the morning after or both >> whether DPW
>> it can't be done at night. It's pitch blackout. Um, so in order to to clean the beach, the pyrochnics clean their area and they they get everything they have there in their area. Um, but I mean
I can't have people walk the beach in the dark to clean the beach. So, um, Eric Cooper has agreed that he would be there first thing, have his crews there first thing in the morning. >> Anybody else on commission? Paul. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for all the years you've um
done this festival. Um the fireworks are a problem. Okay. I wonder had you have you considered any other locations? Are there any possible locations besides firing these things off over the water? >> We have
um there is no other location this year, especially this year with the drought that we've had this summer, the water restrictions. Um, it was kind of suggested to me that, well, how about Madakis? Madakis is a tinder box. There
are so solar panels out in the back and it's surrounded by homes. I'm not interested in having a fire. >> Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think about that. Thank you. Um, I am though concerned not so much. I know things can be cleaned up off the beach, but as David said, stuff goes out in the
water and this is this is the problem not only for this situation, but you know, kind of worldwide. There's so much plastic and this is just going to contribute to it. >> Well, the plastic if it could be removed from the shelves then that will not be an issue this year. >> I don't know enough about the
>> It has been in the past. Last year um was the first time I ever noticed the plastic. Um and so, as I said, I addressed it with the fireworks company and they said they would manually remove the plastic before they shot any shelves. >> Well, they they were able to take a
piece of plastic cut that plastic part of the thing off. Yes. >> It's like a label or something that they >> Yeah. And then nothing if it's if it explodes over the water um nothing will go down into the water. >> No, it's a it's a it's a biodegradable shell. >> Yeah.
>> It looks like a coconut shell. Um and that because the tide came in so quickly last year, it washed the shells back up before they had time to decompose. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Anybody else?
>> Yeah. Um, >> go ahead. >> Sorry. Um, based on kind of what you've told us, it sounds like the last two years have had an issue with high tides. And so I'm wondering if you've looked to see if there will be a high
tide. >> I have checked the tides. >> Are they in your favor? >> Pardon? >> Will they be in your favor this year? >> They will be because um there will be a whole title se um cycle um before the morning light. So that means we've had a
high tide and a low tide. So it brought it it brought it in, it took it out, it did whatever it has to do. Um, >> what tide will it be when you set the fireworks off? >> Um, I believe there is a full tide at
5:44. >> High tide. >> High tide. >> So then another washed out >> 5 a.m. So will uh Eric Cooper landscape be out there before 5:00 a.m.? Probably not. I I mean, >> so then we're still dealing with another
high tide potentially bringing in more of the fireworks. >> Well, they will they will be on the beach if the tide is coming in. They will be on the beach to take care of that.
>> You mean by that? Who who will be on the beach? >> You said that they landscaping after the high tide. I think >> you said last year that they normally decompose in the water and that because of the high tide coming in so quickly they didn't have a chance to. So
>> yes, it was like 2 hours after the show. So what landed in the water just quickly got washed up on the beach and then it re receded. >> Plan is for most of this debris to disintegrate in our waters. >> I'm sorry. Most of the debris from the
fireworks is just going to disintegrate and be left. >> It decomposes. Yes. >> And just so that you know, August 31st, Dennis is lighting off fireworks at West Beach. >> We're not talking. >> And Hyannis is lighting off at Lewis
Bay. So, we're surrounded. >> That's it. Well, I appreciate your concern and and trying to be uh over the board more than, you know, trying to take care of the problems that we've had in the past and that the town
appreciates your work and I think that communication seems to be the biggest problem here that uh you're coming to us with a more detailed plan with uh uh Dy with Cooper for what Cooper is
going to do. >> Mhm. >> And uh so forth. And I think that timing is critical. >> It is. >> And that uh we'd also like to know uh something more of what DPW does in
relationship to the regular beach cleanup. Um, so I I think that uh it's also communication during the event and surrounding the event and more detailed information and everybody agreeing on the ground how things are
and what's happening. I know that's a strain on your yourselves because you're a small group, but I think that's important. So that's I'd like to see more of that kind of listing when you're going to talk to Britney and uh
everybody else. That's what's my >> meaning what type of conversation do you need during the event? >> Before maybe during if things aren't going well afterwards if uh what the cleanup is and whether it meets
everybody's standards. Mhm. Okay. >> I I'm not sure and commission can agree or disagree, but I'm not sure we're ready to approve this until we have a written agreement from you of what you expect to do in detail and then we can
look at that. >> I I just ask one more question. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah. You mentioned the DPW and you mentioned the fact that evidently DPW is not they're not the guys aren't working or people aren't working on that >> because it's a holiday.
>> Yeah. And then you referenced also Fourth of July and um Memorial Day. Does DP and you said it gave me the impression that DPW does help with cleanup on those days. >> I have no idea who cleans up the beaches. >> So that leads right to my question. What kind of conversations to date have you
had with DPW or anybody else in the town, for example, any select board members or anything about this whole um about about the firework difficulty with debris and so on and so forth? >> I have I've spoken with selectmen. I've
spoken with um the fire department. I've spoken with the DPW. Um we I'm trying to work the best we can. I know you are for everyone. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I love this town. I love our wetlands. I'm a I'm a native, so I have protected the beach my whole life. I
certainly will don't want to do anything to destroy it. >> Of course not. But it's still very nice for the community to have a celebration and they absolutely love the fireworks and it just seems that if the other towns surrounding us can do it. We're focused
on our town and >> well, the other towns are are they have to be facing the same difficulties and and you know that this sport is all about protecting the environment and I get that and I appreciate that wetland protection act and so some things are kind of out of our hands in terms of
what we have to consider. >> Anybody else? Go ahead, Jack. >> Um the towns are different. they have different bylaws and so that's a an issue you have to confront all the time. Um I think that uh if we could get more
information on what the company fireworks company is calling uh natural what decomposes what are the contents and and how have they proven that it does in fact provide uh no harm.
>> Okay. Do I'd like to see that. >> I will try to do get that to you. Um there is a time constraint here. It takes one month to get a state fireworks permit. Um I have not contracted with my fireworks company as yet. Um because I
don't know what your response is going to be. >> Um so if in fact this can happen in sort of a a quick time frame, that would be appreciated. >> Um because it's getting very close.
Well, um, anybody, my wish is to see an agreement and then come back here on August 21st, which still would give you a month and a month and a half. >> Could you give me um a guideline of what
it is that you are looking for from us? Yes, we're looking for additional details on the firework composition, timing for the tide, details of the cleanup, including the number of people, how long they're going to be cleaning, time of day, um, and
it does not sound like any alternatives for entertainment were discussed between you and the seaside committee, but from the response from this >> were discussed and we just felt that it just is not we there isn't a field large enough to handle the crowds. alternative location. I'm just putting
out there into the world that maybe it's time to consider alternative entertainment strategies such as laser shows or drone shows. If fireworks continue to be an issue with cleanup and you don't want to spend money on cleanup for the fireworks in addition to the fireworks, perhaps it might be time to
expand um the ideas there. But so I'm happy to send you a list, but I think the commission mentioned firework composition, timing, tide details, um, and more intense details on the cleanup itself, including the number of crew
members for Cooper Landscaping. >> I don't know what Eric Cooper's crew is, and I mean, they will walk the beach manually and clean the beach. whether it takes an hour or two hours um that may be difficult for me to get from Eric Cooper at this point.
>> Do you have volunteers who will be there the next morning also? >> I do not. I do not. Um the festival is still going on. So the committee volunteers are busy running the festival and we also have to tear down everything
on that field on Monday morning. Um if I can get C um volunteers from the town, absolutely. My concern was I we've always had Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts pitch in to help and do these things. If in fact there was a rain and we had to
set the fireworks off on Monday as opposed to Sunday, the kids are in school, so we figured it was better for us to hire a landscaping crew knowing that they would be there. >> Go ahead. May I make a motion if possible?
>> Yeah, I I think um I I just moved that we postpone a decision until you um you have like three what is it? Three weeks. You've thrown out so many different ideas, but within three weeks >> 21st.
>> Yeah. We need a what we call a signed pollution control plan. Simply specifying the number of people uh doing the cleanup for a certain time frame for both the night of and the and the day after. Who's going to clean it
up? That's what we're asking for. Um and and and what you the time frame and how many people and and and who it will be. We definitely need to see that. It just sounds like you have too many options and we're gonna end up where we were
last year. >> No. >> So, I move that we postpone until we receive this pollution control plan. That's my motion. >> And the date would be August 21st, which would be our next meeting. >> Okay. >> I'll second that motion. >> Okay. So, we have on the floor motion.
All in favor say I. >> I. >> Anybody opposed? Unanimous. >> That's playing it very close on our end. Well, we've been here all year. That's all I can say. We meet twice a week, twice a month, every month except for
one holiday. And uh next year, I suggest if there is you start in February or March, then you won't be running against this this backdrop. >> It looks like there probably won't be a festival next year or whenever. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> Okay. Nothing for me to sign. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Okay. Our next um is the continued notice of intent SE832477.
Um Horsley Whitten Group for the town of Yamoth 220 South Street, Smugglers Beach, South Middle Beach, and Juden Way. proposed beach management including path maintenance, raking and sand fencing on a coastal beach and land
subject to coastal storm flowage. Please introduce yourself and >> go ahead. >> Sure. My name is Robie White House. I'm the assistant public works director supervising the park division on this maintenance plan. >> Hi Amy Ball, senior ecologist with the
Hoy Whitten Group. Um, I realize you just got these plans uh this evening. I'd like to do a highlevel overview of what we've done since we last met with you on July 7th 3rd. July 3rd. Today's the 7th. Um, we
just got all of our comments and conditions back from Natural Heritage and we wanted to make sure we folded all of these into the plans themselves. Uh, I have a handful of points. I'm going to go over it lightly. The edits
that we've made since you last saw them are in blue font. The red font is the the comments and responses that we had from the last round of uh natural heritage uh comments.
So uh in large part this is all um addressing their conditions regarding uh the presence of a a shorebird monitored during certain activities um during specifically during the period between a April 1st and octo August wow
April 1st and August 31st. Um the first point that I would make is on the beach maintenance. Um at your last hearing, the commission had suggested that we would have a uh an annual pre-season meeting with conservation and DPW before
the cleanup activities would occur. Um so we included that as as just a a statement in there. Um we are we have clarified one of the commission members had asked us to please clarify the proactive versus reactive
uh measures on the beach. Um we believe we did that in terms of discussing the pre-season versus during the season. Um there is some overlap between what is proactive meaning getting ready for the season um and what is reactive uh
addressing uh conditions that may occur throughout the season. largely I would say due to you know storm events um that may wash seaweed and and marine debris up onto the beach and also you know potentially
uh bringing in sand over the uh access points. Um we as I mentioned have con uh incorporated all of natural heritage's conditions. Um they were included with our original uh beach management plan.
We have just added additional language in various locations to to to mimic what they have said, which is basically anything between April 1st and August 31st. We would need to have a shorebird monitor, an approved shorebird monitor on site overseeing the activities,
particularly if there are nesting plvers, um, which is the only species we have out there right now. But um in the event that also me turns um which are also state listed species were to um begin nesting on any of these uh three
beaches. Um we have as a result of that also updated the figures both for um Smuggler's Beach and for uh um South Middle Beach and Juden Way.
The updates to the those include um hopefully you can see them the the areas where beach grass may be planted um in and around the pathway entrances and specifically on the um the two access ways for Jud and South
Middle Beach showing the Moby Mats um which are um only at those two beaches. I think we had misspoken last time and thought that there was one at Smuggler's Beach and there is not. Um the Moby Mats are um about 100 ft long and so we've added a a notation and a um show where
the where the Moby Mats are approximately. And then let's see here. um movie mats. We also are responding to a request from the commission um at our last hearing
about having a disposal strategy before. It simply said that we would develop one. Um we have developed one uh in conjunction with DPW and uh noting where the materials would be rad, where they would be temporarily
stockpiled, how they would be handled. Um, in other words, separating out actual, you know, human trash like bottles, pieces of fishing wire, whatever, cans, tabs, things that that wash up with the marine debris from the
actual organic materials, the seaweed, shells, that sort of thing. Um, and having a disposal location for each of those, noting that you also have to adhere to the um the DP approved um
definitely in for the for the for the transfer station and and um what we call the disposal area, right, for the organic material. >> Uh we also clarified who at the town of Yarmouth is responsible for sort of
enforcement of all of these rules and that is a combination of the DPW, the Department of Natural Resources and of course conservation. And then finally again noting that um Metro Heritage had quite a bit of of very specific uh
conditions that they imposed upon the project. Um, we have included a copy of their conditional letter of approval um, as as an attachment to this document um, with a note that that is valid for a
period of 5 years from the date of issuance which would expire on July 31st, 2030. And um, they would request that you could come back to them. They say in advance of um I may use the the 30 days
as as you would for an extension from conservation. Um and you are allowed to get another five years of approval from natural heritage under this exist existing set of conditions. And after that second five-year period then you
would have to go back to natural heritage for another you know full review of the beach management plan. Um, and then ultimately, uh, the plans will be cleaned up. It'll be all in like black and white font. Um, and I think it would be important to have those dates
on the front for DPW to know when it is time to go back and revisit the the permits, knowing that if the conservation commission issues an order of conditions for this, that would expire in three years with the option to review renew um, potentially up to three
additional years. so that those dates are right there in the front and it's not overlooked by the the DPW. I think that is all. I am certainly happy to answer questions from the commission. >> Thank you. Anybody have any questions? It's a lot to digest in a couple
minutes. Go ahead. >> Yes. Thank you. And thank you for revising these reports and all. And there might be an obvious answer to this question, but um in order to keep sort of uh for lack of a better word, the equilibrium of the dunes. In both
reports, you say that to maintain the access points, the accumulated sand will be removed using a front end loader, skid scale or esavator and all care will be taken blah blah blah. Where where are you going to put it? Do you have that in here somewhere? And I'm missing it.
I don't think we did address where that gets put. I put it back on the beach, but they do spread it. Yeah. >> Right, Britney. >> I think you I thought I saw it. Maybe it's just because I know you where you put it, but I >> back on the beach. I would not remove
it. >> The intention is that they spread it back onto the beach surface in the nearest location of the end of the path, but they can certainly add that if it's not in there. I can add it as a special condition so you don't need to put it in there if
that's actually would make I don't need to speak out of term but it would make sense for all of the conditions that the commission um imposes upon this to also be in the plan. It's kind of like not having stuff on the you know the plan plans and then
the contractor goes out and says well it wasn't on the plan. So, >> anybody else questions? >> Um, I have more of a comment. Um, I do appreciate you addressing all of the concerns that we had. Um,
>> receiving the revised documents 5 minutes before the start of the meeting does not give us enough time to review the changes. Um, so I'm a little bummed that we kind of have to take your word for it. Um, but I will be reading
through it more thoroughly >> after today. >> Understood. We did just get this um the the comments back from Natural Heritage like well like at 6 or 7 o'clock at night and then um Roby won't be here on
the 21st. So, we wanted to make sure we got this and had a chance to share this with the commission at least verbally. >> Understood. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else comments? Anybody feel that we're not ready to vote for this? >> I am not ready to vote for this. >> Jack,
>> I am. >> I am. >> You are. You are. >> Um, I think I'd go along with Bradford, but we just got this. Yeah. >> All right. Well, if I hear a motion then and uh we
can see whether it passes. >> Well, I mean, just ask Ally her opinion because it's not something you would deny. So, just Ellie, would you be open to v voting or continuing so that we know where our quorum is? >> I I I would vote to to to approve it
with the conditions um you know, trusting that the you know, the blue they incorporated um the rules and regs as you in the Department of Fisheries, etc. Um, there's a trust factor involved as my my
colleague says, but I I think we should move forward with the conditions. >> I can put you at ease if you'd like to just be able to review. We do have 21 days to issue. If they get their revisions back, you still can review it
before I issue it if that's amanable. If we're feeling that they did incorporate everything we talked about, we just didn't have a chance to see the final product. Um I have we have 21 days from today if we vote to issue it. So we you can still have a chance to review the final
>> put you at ease with us >> and and I'm always >> sorry as I mentioned if you have conditions that you want to include in order of conditions. I think one of them may be to finalize this incorporating any conditions and any additional
comments as part as a condition of the approval. So that way nothing would be overlooked. If there is a, you know, typos or if there's something you'd like to have clarified, then we can incorporate that. Final >> I don't
I mentioned this last time, but I don't understand the difference between proactive and reactive management practices. I'm sure you've explained it in here, but until I have a better understanding of that, I don't feel comfortable voting on this. Um, so
>> and it is generally um I know you wanted you're going on vacation and that's the only reason we're here tonight, but generally revised plans are due one week prior to the hearing. >> Yes. >> I'm at a loss. Should we should we go ahead and vote and uh
and with the idea that we have 21 days to um if so we can make changes if if there are issues >> the conditions. Yeah. So, do I hear a vote? You can vote in the affirmative and then there's still opportunity to change things if it's
discovered that we have additional questions or >> if there were things that were previously discussed that they didn't include, we won't be able to ask new questions. >> What >> if we are only able to address any issues with the special conditions if we have previously discussed it and they
just forgot to add it back in. um that will be able to be remedied but no new questions can be asked as if we vote to issue. So if there's an error, we can >> Yes, >> we can correct the error. If there's something you're not clear, you don't
think it's clear enough, we can ask them to clarify it more. >> I'd like to hear comments from the audience or >> Yeah, I'm going to get to that, but I just want to make sure we're all the same place. But thank you, rookie. Anybody in the audience um want to
comment on the on this? >> Can we open a window? The air conditioning's not >> I I don't know. I've never >> um We'll check it out. Um
anybody online on Zoom? Raise your hands. Okay, seeing none on either. Do I hear a motion to accept with special conditions and the idea that we can review? >> Jack,
anybody second? I'll second that. >> Okay. Wait till uh Britney gets back. >> It worked. Did you feel that? >> You're a miracle worker. So, we had Jack make the motion. >> Did we motion to continue or to issue? >> To issue. >> Okay.
>> So, we have Jack and um Ellie seconded. >> Okay. >> Okay. All in favor say I. >> I. >> Anybody opposed? >> Okay. It's unanimous. >> I will abstain. will abstain. Okay, Bradford's abstains.
>> So, if we can get this in a more timely fashion, that would be very helpful. And uh go from there. >> Thank you very much. >> Just going to shut that open. >> Um that one I have to sign, right?
>> Please. >> Okay. Bradley does not sign it. >> Bradford does not sign. >> Bradford, you do not sign. Okay. Uh, next order of business is a request
for determination applicability. All Cape Septic and Survey for Stacy Veluzo at 25 Deerfield Road. proposed seasonal deck on coastal beach velocity flood zone and national heritage
habitat. >> You would introduce yourself and tell us your project. I appreciate it. >> Good evening. I'm Michael Okcoin with Alcape Septic and Survey and I'm here before you this evening on 25 Deerfield Road. Uh they had been doing some
previous um things to the building um which they went through the permit process. Um but at this point they wanted to replace a deck and enlarge that deck and add a gazebo and as you know they're in a flood zone and uh the
priority habitat um accordingly and um I'm here before you to try to answer any questions that you may have on it. Um the structure would be on sauna tubes. Uh it won't won't be a full foundation. Um uh basically they are there was an
existing deck there. Uh they are increasing the square footage of approximately 700 square ft from what they earlier what they had existing. Though at the time when we did go out
there the existing deck was removed. Uh though we did have a sauna tube layout and according to the assessors uh we kind of verified the existing debt that had been there. Um we proposed to
basically if there is debris to move it to that northwest section to get it out of the driveway as quickly as possible. And um everything will be attached to drainage for all the gutters and and rain spouts.
And I'm happy to answer any questions if I can. >> Anybody have any questions? >> No. >> No. >> No. I was out there and it fine. >> Anybody else? No. Um, do I hear a motion? >> Wait, David, just clarification. Um, the
description on the agenda was copied from another one by accident. This is outside of all resource areas except the flood zone. >> Okay. Thank you for that clarification. It's I don't know what happened there. Um and this this tree is going to be retained. >> Yes, it is.
>> Um and when we're on site, the grading from the septic looked like it was right on that corner stake for the deck. It's not too close to the septic system. >> It is not. It was the grading wall. >> Okay, that's all. Thank you. >> Anybody in the audience have uh any comments on this?
Anybody on Zoom? I see none. Can I hear a motion to accept as a negative two? So moved >> second by Paul. All in favor? >> I. >> No one opposed. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you. >> Okay. Sign this one. The next order of business is a request for determination of applicability from the Capecod Engineering Incorporated for Cynthia Richards. >> Great Island Road Bridge. Proposed
bridge repairs including ceiling cracks, replacing chinking stones and timber shims and land under the ocean, land containing shellfish and salt marsh. You introduce yourself and let us know what's going on. >> Thank you very much. I'm Bob Perry, Cape
Cut Engineering, Craig Fleming, the general manager is here tonight of Great Island, and Cynthia Richards, who signed on as applicant. She's the uh board chair for the Great Island Board. Uh we're here with a request for determination to address
some fairly minor work. uh the advertisement stated some things that won't be done and that was just refined uh as the organization decided what to do and what not to do. So the shim replacements not part of the
program. Um there's no specific location um that would appear on a say a new plan. So, the chapter 91 licensing plan that shows cross-sections, the plan view, the location of the work is filed
with the RDA as is a work description. Several days ago, I was able to um meet with Robert Hour's crew that did begin this work, and I was uh interested in
the protocol. And the reason I was most interested in that is Britney reached out to me about a week ago looking for more detail. And I think the primary reason for the detail is that the first effort had utilized a method of sort of
a portable coffer dam to keep water away from the bridge abupment so they could extend the work period beyond low tide. That's not on the table any longer. And uh the Robert Hour crew has uh explained that their work is going to be limited
to one hour before, during, and one hour after low tide. And this work is limited to preventative maintenance. Just going through the abupment carefully and trling in mortar
from handheld buckets into cracks and interstitial spaces where mortar would be advised. And it's certainly not everywhere and it's certainly not extra, you know, an extraordinary amount of work. It's basically looking for cracks
and some chinking stone replacement in the revetment. Um, which is also hand work. So there's no machinery. It's two possibly three workmen in waiters working several hours a day for several
days. Uh, and that is the work that's described in our RDA. I confirmed that by speaking to um the foreman and I sent that in an email. I'm hoping you got it. So, that's really what we're addressing
here tonight. And there's no alteration of resource area. It's work that's taking place in the resource area, but it's footwork. and the activity alteration if anything is just mortar being applied to
strategic locations. Thank you. >> Anybody have any questions? >> I have one comment and not a question. Um, we were out there when people were doing work without a permit. And I have to say I was really surprised that considering all the work we've done with
uh with the great great island group that they would try to fix a bridge without talking to Britney first. And uh I'm hoping in the future that we don't have any of that. Whether it's a bridge, I mean, if it's near the water, you have to talk to Britney and maybe get a
permit. And uh I I was I really considering how many times you've been in front of this commission, I'm really surprised we we have I have to say that. >> Anybody else? >> Yes. >> I'd uh agree with your comment. Also,
I'm just curious is what the the mortar, how soon it dries, what the type of it is, if it gets tied water on it, what's the impact? it would set up uh relatively quickly. It's never going to be a perfect
circumstance. Um mortar that's saturated immediately with salt water probably has a less strength, especially on the surface, but no one's looking for perfection here. It would probably result in low strength concrete, but
it's it's of the handwork level. And I believe that the goal of simply trying to reduce ice damage and ice freezing action in certain locations on that abutment that
will be satisfied. But otherwise, it's um it's never never going to be a perfect circumstance. No one's looking for high strength mortar. Even though if you mix it right with the proper water cement ratio, you're going to get great mortar.
And that's all we're asking is to start with a good mix and if the tide inundates it then you you have you know you have that surface of that mix is just going to have to be sacrificed. >> But my point was what goes back gets dissolved.
what gets dissolved >> and goes back into the water from the mortar. >> Minor amounts of of lime and the other constituents of concrete that are I in my opinion they're natural and it's a very minor uh dissolution. It's probable
if you've ever worked with mortar. I'm sure you have. It sets up pretty fast. You're going to get a little bit of sufficient dissolution. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Let me um um you're an engineer, correct? >> Yes. >> So, let me ask a question.
The Coffford Dam um logistic, I assume that was proposed and you probably found it too costly. Um >> no, I I I got into this after the initial um first step and it's my
understanding that these were um large but fairly portable sandbags. you saw them and it was used as a I think you would call it a leaky coffer dam so that it simply gave the workmen I think their goal was to extend their work period a
short bit because at high tide mid tide even I don't think they that was going to work >> yeah it's impractical to do it >> okay because what I was getting at is that that would uh if you were looking for a dry situation with a coffer dam
you were sort of jeopardizing that now by saying we're We're not going to have a coffer dam. We're going to work in a in a wet situation. >> Right. >> Are you okay with that? >> I am because the coffer dam would be practical would be the very same one and it would be leaky. You know, you might
extend the dry time by 40 minutes. I don't think anybody sacrificing integrity um by having the mortar get inundated shortly after it's placed. Thank you. >> Anybody else?
>> One other thing. So, this this um maintenance is um almost by definition temporary, right? It's going to need it again. >> Yeah. There's a bridge report longterm. >> Yeah. >> That would have uh the bridge replaced, >> the bigger the bigger project that's
down the line of peace. >> Yes. And they're fully aware that any project like that you'll be seeing that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I just like to, you know, for no other reason just to maintain an appropriate relationship here. Um David's comments about touching
base with Britney. It's it I was out there, too, and it was kind of surprising to see the guys working on that. So, if you could just touch base accordingly, that would be terrific. >> Absolutely. >> You you you do a good job out there. So, we want to continue that. >> Yeah. We just so you know, we we were not expecting that when we worked with
Robert B. They did not tell us they were going to bring in sandbags and do the same. So, I thought they were going to do it just like we're proposing now, which is around low tide. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you, >> Britney. You have anything to add? >> Not really. Just what's the longevity of this repair? How long do you expect it
to last until you need to do another or replacement? >> I I think it would go to the point in time that the bridge would be replaced, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other faults and cracks that might want to be replaced or or repaired over the next couple of years.
>> Okay. Thank you. Is this RDA good for three? >> This RDA is good for three. >> Okay. So, if there was a second iteration, they would notify you and the the a second iteration of similar work would be applicable. >> And generally, minor maintenance is
included in your chapter 91 license. Because of the deployment of that coffer dam, that's what triggered this RDA because it was assumed that you'd be kind of using that same type of thing again. and just the lack of detail. We really wanted to know what kind of work was really needed to get that bridge
back into shape. Um, so minor repairs, just let me know. We can see if you need to do another RDA or if I can just approve it under your existing permit. Um, but we can see when that time comes. >> Anybody in the audience? Anybody online on Zoom?
Having seen none, do I have a motion to accept with conditions? >> Under a negative two. -2. So moved. >> So moved. >> I'll second. >> Second. All in favor? >> I opposed. Nope. Okay, we're all set.
Thank you for your time. >> Have those? >> Yes. >> Just throw them in here. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> All right. Heavy one.
Okay. Well, that's going down. Um, we have a notice of intent SE 832494. Cape Cod Engineering for RJ Resorts Bluewater Resort Owner LLC 2 291 and 301
Southshore Drive. Proposed seasonal deck on a coastal beach velocity flood zone and natural heritage habitat. Anybody hear from that? >> Wait, did Bob Perry just walk out? >> Did he forget about this one?
Bob, you forgot about one. >> You going to run away? Sorry to be delayed. I did not think I would be that >> try to set you up for success. >> Quick turnaround, but thank you for that. Timing is is helpful. So, for the record, I'm Bob Perry. Cape
Cut Engineering is working with the Blue Water Resort. And we actually included two addresses on this application. Uh 241 and 301 uh I just checked myself. I
think it's 291 and 31. >> Yeah. >> 301 Southshore Drive. 301 is a point of access to the beach. But since it is access and it is vehicle traffic that's
proposed, we included that the project again uh we have something that I think had a false start. Um, the organization has a 12 by 12 woodframed
portable deck and they use it as a stage for say a triple it ensemble for acoustic music, maybe a little bit of speaker action on the beach. And I think
they were asked to remove it. So that deck portable is now on the north side of Southshore Drive. And the plan that you see shows the beach. Uh it shows the
location where I don't know anywhere from 50 to 100 chairs are placed. It shows the access route from 301 where there's a natural be beach access way that takes beach maintenance vehicles
when they're allowed to be there down to the beach. Uh, and what we have is a temporary 12x 12 timber deck that would be delivered when the rare species
mapping and or organizational protocols are set and I think it's August 1 or with a bird monitor. Everyone could see the irony of using a beach to this degree with people and you know all the recreational beach use here
is but yet it's still mapped and managed as a as a rare species habitat. So I think that that ongoing practice with natural heritage and endangered species program has succeeded in cordoning off
areas that they deem important so that there's an ongoing management arrangement with the resort. So here at the west end of the beach about 20 feet 22 feet from the seaw wall
is proposed the seasonal deck. The explanation in the in the notice of intent discusses how to make that meet the performance standards. It's an open sandy beach and we went to some length to describe how
this temporary deck will sit on the sand. It will be leveled simply similar to anyone digging a small hole or shifting beach sand around in an area that's already completely used by scores
of people every day to just get it level. But we are in a flood zone and we are proposing that it be anchored when it uh is in place and we also spoke to the likelihood of
any kind of harm having to do with the flood zone. We are nine feet above the mean high tide line or eight seven to nine feet above the mean high tide line and any tides that would reach that level are going to be part of the news
before they get to that point. And we're not talking about a outward or remote location. We have a professional level staff. They do try to follow the rules. I believe they will follow the rules and we've
explained and through the application that prior to any um storms that are forecasted to be severe like a gale or tropical storm, this would be removed. It would also be removed offseason.
It would also accommodate any requirements of the natural heritage and endangered species uh organization. So it doesn't interfere with the migration of the beach sand. It's not in
a dune and it will be properly managed just as all the other amenities that exist down on the beach. Um we did a storm water management outline because it's a it's not a single family house and it's there isn't much to say about
it. Um, but we we did cover that. And this is a very minor project, but because it's in the beach and it's in a flood zone, we felt that it was appropriate to touch on all the factors that you would find of concern or of
interest. And we've covered them all. I don't see any way that we're not consistent with the performance standards. Um, I don't think I've left anything out. And so I'd be happy to try to answer any of your questions. Thank you. >> Anybody guess? Paul.
>> Yeah, thank you. Um I was wondering about in the event you do have to under some emergency situation take that platform out. Do you have the necessary equipment or how would you how would you um how would you approach that? >> It's my understanding that the resort
has the wherewithal. Um it it can be easily lifted with um garden garden level tractor. Um they clean the beach. They have equipment that they use to transport >> after that would lift it up.
>> Chain it. Just chain it. Hoist it. >> Okay. All right. Thanks. >> Um it might be in those notes. I don't remember reading. Um it's a small deck 12 by 12. So, do you have any provision to prevent trash from
falling in the water? >> The resort is I've been there several times in the last uh month. It's extremely well managed and there's uh trash control, crowd control. Um it's very wellrun. So, yes, very much trash
control. >> Anybody else? >> Yeah. Does the organization have a permit for the beach chairs? >> I don't know. And I I don't think so, but I don't know. >> A grandfather to enter. >> Yeah, it's an uh it's remarkable how
wonderfully wide that beach is. I think it's it's benefiting from nourishment at smugglers and it's pretty pretty great resource. I noticed that uh in fact is it's pretty close to the neighbor on the west side and that your photos of the
aerials really smudged out that there are plants. It's quite a grass area and it'll be within about what 15 ft of that. >> It's 50 feet from the boundary line and the boundary line is the location of a very significant dune system >> off to the west.
>> Yes. It's a completely different regime. The resort to the west has a beach, but they also have a it's a different geology. >> Yeah. >> Blue water is closer to the water. Riviera is closer to the water and and the beach area is fully recreational
except for and it's shown on our plan. This was going back three years, I think four years. There was a notice of intent that was presented to you for dune development project and the fruits of that are very
successful and they are in that area to the east of the seaw wall. It's a very good dune growing in there. This won't affect it at all. >> Here's an aerial. This is where the platform was when I found it and I told them they need to move it away from that
location. So they're proposing it um out here 40 how far >> 50 ft. >> Do you Does anybody know this would be the first of this kind of >> operation in Yarmouth?
>> Well I >> I do want to see more detail on uh how that is built. That does not come apart. Your deck does not come apart. No, it's uh there's a a 2x6 framing as far as I could tell and five quarter
decking and they are stacked but they are attached. >> So I I would want to see uh uh the size of the tractor. I and a backup tractor. And I say that from uh knowledge of other systems where they
had walls that they were supposed to be bringing up out of the ground to preserve the the resort hotel and their tractor their their uh equipment broke down and and it just wiped out the whole part of the
hotel, you know, and unendated the basements and everything. So I do see that having backup equipment is really an good idea. >> Well, I I I don't disagree. I the red jacket, the blue water, the Riviera,
green harbor, uh and I think Cottages by the Sea, which is now I think part of the Riv these organizations are all under the same umbrella. And I think we can get you any information that you're asking
for, but I think there is ample resources so this is properly managed. >> I'd just like to note that. Sure. I'm sure you're right. And uh did did they consider putting it up on further past the dunes on shore?
>> Well, there's a you know there's the area where uh the resort is. I I I think it it's it's not my business really to get into the philosophy of of entertainment or or luxury or um hospitality, but having that small uh
area on the beach, it gets it down low and the seaw wall breaks the sound and the dune elevated dune breaks the sound from traveling anywhere except south and east. >> Mhm. And it just really gets this small
event which is I don't know how often it is um out of earshot of anybody that might be a neighbor >> and well it's not our purview but >> right >> the neighbors may complain. Yes,
>> it's not our perview for that. >> Yeah. I just have another question. Sure. I I won't ask my question about whether Jimmy Buffett music is played, but if >> it can be. >> It's off the beach now, right? >> It is. >> Okay. And is it possible for Britney for
you to um kind of check out how they place the thing and and you might learn something that you can tell us about how they might take it out if there's an emergency? Is that possible? Or could we >> I think they could provide us with information how they're going to put it in and take it out.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. That's um you know it hey I hate to sound this way but we we I saw it as very basic um remove and replace hand carry get it on a a a chain and and I should also say it's also something could be trailered out
fireman's carry or it it we're going to get you some information about that to see if there are alternatives because you've asked for some redundancy if there's no lifting backhoe then there's another option Yeah. And obviously it's because, you
know, um what I'm concerned about is is disturbance of the beach itself beyond what um is is maybe necessary if you do have the right kind of equipment to bring it out there, you know. Um I just think that's important. >> I think this
>> I wouldn't want to see it just dragged off the beach. In other words, >> that wouldn't it would damage it. I think this beach is raped when it can be raped. So there's a beach rake tractor. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. And that's the kind of activity in addition to 80 to 200 people that
might be on this beach in a in a day. It's just beach sand. So it's >> not likely to be in any way disturbed permanently. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Anybody else? Go ahead. Um yeah, to that point, um you do say in the narrative
that it it is transported by a small trailer towed by a small vehicle along an existing established driveway route to the beach across the open sand beach to the proposed location shown on the attached site plan. Are you able to show us that access path now on the plan?
Yeah, it's >> photographed in the nar. It's in the notice of intent. Photographed and it is on the plan. >> And we tried to just show you that we're clear of the dune. >> It's on the plan. >> Is my point, right?
>> Y >> is what we're hearing. >> Anybody else? >> Bob, I have just uh one concern slashquest. Um, it's great that they're going to take it off if there's a storm coming up, but every now and then we wake up and there's a storm that nobody
told us about. September 18th ruined stairs at Racone because of a storm. And not that they could have done anything about it, but it was it was a surprise storm. How fast are they able to say, "Oh my goodness, we need to go move that thing now."
I believe it would be like any marina taking precautions to remove boats. It's that's an our evolution to get that out of there in my opinion and if they relax half a day uh because it it's really one item.
>> Yeah. Okay. It's my only concern is the surprise. >> Well, I agree and I did make the comment that we have elevations of I think we're coming up around 8 to 9. So you have an epic event if you have water up there,
but we did back in uh uh 23 24, but it was in the winter and and um this would be a hurricane concern for Nucket Sound or Southeaster like we had in that time frame. Um this won't be here in the
winter and it will absolutely be removed in the event of a hurricane or tropical storm warning. It's a surprise storm that I'm >> Well, it's hard to get surprised with 8 feet extra seawater, but I I think you have a valid concern and we one hour.
I'll talk to them about it. >> We can't vote on this because we don't have natural national natural heritage. >> That's correct. >> Uh, anybody uh Britney, you have anything? So, I keep forgetting about you. >> Um, I only have one question. in your application and on the site plan in your
note, you say if anchorage is required, but it does sound like you are proposing to anchor this every time you put it in. >> It can be done and if your concerns were just as David has indicated, he's concerned about unforeseen events. Um
the anchorage is safeguard to that. Um it just keeps it from migrating. It's not going to keep it from moving, but it's not a problem to do that. Um, it's just one more step. It puts a helical screw into the beach, but I don't think
that's a hardship. Uh, it's up to you. >> Yeah, I'd prefer it be anchored and for the note to reflect >> included it because I felt that you would >> like the option. Anything else, Britney? >> That's all. Thank you. >> You have uh anybody in the audience? I'll ask you to go up to the podium and
introduce yourself. Good evening. Uh my name is Howard Wensley. Uh address is 117 Wilson Road. Uh which is across the street from Blue Water U Edge of the Sea Motel. Uh I've been a resident there for 74 years and
has also have beach access uh to the area we're talking about. So, uh, in the 74 years I've seen a lot of what's been been going on on this beach, how the beach has changed, where the water has come, uh, during the hurricanes in the mid50s, the water in fact came across
the street and washed out the Southshore Drive. So, uh, it is not unknown that the water doesn't stay where it belongs or maybe it goes where it belongs. I'm not sure. Um we have no real significant
problems uh with this installation. However, uh we do want to make sure that there is a real need for it first of all and uh the statement saying that there's a sound barrier. I can tell you
there is no sound barrier. We hear the performers uh that have been there uh down on Wilin Road. So it is not true that there is a sound barrier by because of the uh the seaw wall. Um want to make sure that it does get out out of there
if necessary in a hurry. Um in addition to getting the deck out of there, there is also the need to get 100 plus beach chairs out of there, uh beach umbrellas, etc., etc. that they're on the beach. So we want to make sure this is all taken
into consideration. uh and will be uh will be addressed. The other thing I just want to uh bring before the commission is I'm not sure the real need for this. Uh there is a
boardwalk up on top of the seaw wall uh where this these performances could be carried out. Um, I'm not sure what the addition of this deck is really going to add that could would not be potentially detrimental uh to uh to the
beach. Also want to ask uh Britney, is there a beach management plan for for this particular facility? >> There's a they're approved for raking and they had some dune management. Um not a comprehensive beach management plan, but they're they have a raking and dune management plan.
>> Okay. because I'm also concerned that until two years ago there was a significant dune that is not shown here that seems to have disappeared. >> They did have approval. Um that's so they had >> take that dune down and relocate it. >> It was I think it was significantly
longer than two years ago but so there was a dune in the center of the beach that um we gave them approval to relocate to directly adjacent to the seaw wall. That's what these new plantings are um that have grown in significantly up here. So, this is the
new replanted dune that was approved as part of their dune management plan >> over to the right in front of the edge of the sea. >> Yeah, this part was replanted and the dune used to be like in the middle middle. >> We don't remember ever have her having received notice of any hearings or anything on that.
>> I think it was earlier in like 2016, but I can check. >> Okay. So again, uh those are our concerns and uh again bottom line is we're not sure what the necessity is of this to begin with, but thank you. >> Thank you. I do want to say that we
don't have anything over noise. That's not what >> Yeah. No, I I understand that, but you were given some information that was incorrect. >> Assume they'll have to get an entertainment license and at that point you can talk to the selectman about about that. >> Okay. But they said one of the reasons for doing this was to break the noise.
>> Okay. Thank you. I just maybe there's another question to that. I I didn't know and I do not know how many performances they've actually had on the beach. I think they've had performances over the years that were at
the resort level. So I I my own judgment just tells me there would be a sound block, but again it may be minor. >> Okay. There there have been several this summer already. Okay. >> From the deck. >> Thank you for Thank you. >> Yeah. Just hearing that I I just have another question about about I guess the
necessity for this if there is a area a boardwalk along there. I mean I don't know how many musicians you fit on a 12 by 12 platform as opposed to the to the deck. Maybe you have to arrange them a little different way. But um I guess my
question is can't the the boardwalk be used as the stage for the performances and then a group the chairs in front of the of the uh of the uh decking um the boardwalk which would you know it's been
mentioned that this is kind of a precedent and that we wouldn't have to set that in terms of allowing this kind of thing if in fact the entertainers could be up on the on the um >> right >> the boardwalk. >> I think you could always have them up there if you could find the room and
move the tables and chairs around. I think what you're addressing is an application for a a particular like many applications. There's a desire to have something that may seem unique right now. Um, I don't know that
everybody's going to want to put a 12 by 12 deck with a triplet on it across the board, but um, this is I think it's a it's a quality atmospheric choice to have that ensemble. I think you get
three musicians. I'm guessing maybe three. I don't know how well a drum kit's going to go on there, but probably not. And so, um, I see this as a desire on the part of the applicant to create that setting which brings it down to the
sand as low as it can be. And I think our my job anyway is to try to discuss with you how it meets the performance standards for coastal beaches and the flood zone. And we're trying to demonstrate that we have a resort with a
very large staff. I believe it's safe to say they're well managed and that they are understanding what their job is if they have an issue with weather and the benefit is they're also hearing from you and others about their concerns
and to also manage the other things that they do on that beach which I believe they're already doing. So I I I get it. You can always find an alternative, but I think this is just a it's a a three-year order of conditions
that you have the option to extend after 3 years or not perhaps. Um I don't know that this is a permanent structure. Uh it isn't. So, um, there may be some leeway for you there if you have
concerns, but I couldn't find a way to, um, I couldn't find any true way with with precautions taken that we don't meet the performance standards. >> Anybody else? Anybody else from the audience? Can't see everybody, but I don't see.
And anybody online? Having seen none, we're gonna have to continue this because we don't have uh n national and I'd like to get you the information you asked for. >> So continue. >> If you don't mind changing that plan note to say if Anchorage is required to
>> we're doing anchorage. >> How about Anchorage? >> How about Anchorage? >> That's okay. Yes. >> And uh >> our next hearing is August 21st. Is that good? >> We can hear from them by then. We should, right? It's 30 days. Let's put it down. We'll take it. Okay. So, can I
hear a motion to um continue to August 21st? So, moved. Second. >> All in favor of continuing. >> I. >> Anybody opposed? No. Okay. Thank you, Bob. Thank you. >> Did you move that? Who moved that? >> Thank you.
>> Good night. >> Okay, moving along. Um, another notice of intent. Wrong piece of paper. Um, SE832493
JM O'Reilly and Associates for Irene Holmes one parsonage point grade stairs in a buffer zone to a bordering vegetated wetland and natural heritage habitat. Can introduce yourself
and uh good good evening. For the record, I'm John O'Reilly and to my right is Irene Holmes, the property owner and applicant. Uh we're here tonight to have the commission review and hopefully eventually approve a set
of elevated uh stairs um on Miss Holmes's property. Um, Miss Holmes has owned the house for a number of years and has enjoyed um access to the pond,
Eli El Elisha's pond, and um through a through a footpath and part of the pathway, it runs through a relatively steep slope. Um, it's getting a little bit more getting a little bit more difficult to traverse. very difficult
>> and and we're proposing a set of elevated stairs over that portion only. Um the stairs um have been designed to provide um 18 in of of um gap between
the existing grade and the support members. Um it be an open staircase. Um we've specified gaps within the decking for sunlight. Um, and we've had we've designed the stairs to jog around the existing trees.
So, we envision there will be some limming of the trees to in order to construct the stairway, but we do not believe there'll be any removal of trees to construct the stairway. The other component of the project is um a that
the pathway as it leads to the pond does veer off the right of way that Miss Holmes owns. So, we are asking the commission just to simply relocate that pathway uh in the right of way and um allow the existing pathway that's off property to
naturalize. Um the resources we're dealing with is an inland bank, uh a great pond, of course, a BBW, and we are subject to um Natural Heritages uh mapping. uh we have not heard from natural heritage so like the others
before me we'd be looking for continuence but I I thought it would be a good idea to get any input and questions and comments the commission may have and uh we can address them >> thank you any questions or comments
>> just clarification that all the work is is hand work what what are the posts um the posts what >> I I'm calling I'm calling I'm calling for 4x4 posts that will simply be set into the ground. No footer, no concrete or anything like
that. Simply post hole digger to set the set the posts. >> I might want to indicate that on the plan. I don't know if you do or not. >> I do have a section that shows the extension of the post for 48 inches below, but um I can certainly add a note
uh that not have a footer if that's if that's what your concern is. Okay. No, you're Yeah, you do say 4x6 post >> post. >> I didn't see that at first. So, yeah, you do you do define what they are.
>> I'm sorry. I did say 4x4. It is a 4x6 that I'm specking. Yep. >> Just want to commend you for the how you design the stairs to not have to take any trees down. I think >> more people should be that that way
versus going in and clear cutting. So, I appreciate we all appreciate that. I know. I'll speak for it. >> Thank you, me. >> Oh, >> I'm sorry, Jack. Um I guess yeah I pretty well appreciate what you've done how it's designed and
there's a couple of conditions that to be added probably on pruning but I am wondering about the lack of footers how you expect that the structure of the stairs themselves are going to be strong enough to hold it's a darn steep bank
um and I presume that you don't want to bring in concrete or something like that. >> Yeah. When I first started designing stairways, elevated stairways, we were putting concrete footers in the ground, either digging a sauna tube and pouring concrete by pale or forming them offsite
and then bringing them and setting them. And you end up causing more damage to the slope than should be necessary and potential erosion. So what we have been doing or what I've been doing for the past 10 10 12 years is specking um the
simple timber to be set right in the ground and um we've we've done structures much bigger than this um and not have not have any problem. >> Yeah, there's quite a variety of plastic and other kind of footers nowadays that
uh uh can be transported ex very easily and I'm wondering have you considered any of those? It might be. >> I haven't considered the um Are you talking about the the diamond the diamond anchors, which is the small concrete block? I haven't. No, they're
are plastic. They essentially have bottom flares that sit will expand the area that the timber is resting on. You set them in. They sometimes have spikes that go further down to the ground. I mean, there's a multitude of these kind
of things out there. number that uh I am not trying to tell you your business. Sure. >> I appreciate that. Um well, we I will be having to come back and I'll I'll investigate that and might have an answer for you, but I do like the way the posts work for for us. >> Okay. Anybody else?
>> Yeah, David. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Yeah, I I was out there and it seems like Have you considered a zipline though, Miss Holmes? You know, right down to the water. >> Don't give her any ideas. >> That's quite a drop. That's quite a >> I know you would
for one. >> It It sounds like a great plan. >> Motorized. >> Britney, anything to add? >> Um I No, I always appreciate you contacting me prior to get um get some opinions about this. Um I did I missed
one thing here. You have the 50 foot buffer noted twice. If you don't mind just updating this to say it's the edge of wetland. Sorry I didn't catch that on my first runaround. >> No worries. um and >> give you something to look at. >> Yeah. Right. And the only thing I would recommend as a special condition is to
uh keep the pruning of the oaks to the dormant season. But that's all I have. Thank you. >> Thank you. Anybody in the audience? Any comments? Anybody on Zoom? >> There's one comment. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Could you introduce yourself? And >> Hi, my name is Timothy Walsh. I'm the
homeowner and neighbor of Irene. Um, and so the um the the strip of land that the staircase would be on is a 10- foot wide strip and that is my house that's just above
there. Um, it doesn't show like the some of the chimney and the there's a patio right there and stuff. So, yeah, >> it just seems like the stairs are awfully close to my house and
I I'm worried about the impact on that either on resale value or otherwise for enjoyment of the backyard um with a staircase there. nothing about um Irene
at all, but um I'm just thinking for the future. And I'm wondering if if like that staircase has to be that shape, whether it could go somewhere else, whether it it's right up against the property line, which is
19 ft from where you see the edge of my house there. and everybody wants to enjoy a pond. It's just that that's, you know, kind of very close. And I don't know
um if there's another design that could be done or something else that could try to um help make it a little little less uh conspicuous. Britney,
>> I don't think that's addressed to me. Um >> I don't know. It's >> Well, we um I I think that's addressed to me >> um through the chair. U we did look initially we did look at a single flight
of stairs um with no jog in it >> and that was a that was a concern of Miss Holmes and her daughter. um having a such a long flight of stairs with no break. >> It would have a landing though. >> Yep. Yep. But they they they appreciated
the fact that if God forbid someone to slip and fall, they have that intermediate landing to break their fall. I do like to leave a jog in the stairway for that simple purpose. Um so that's the na nature of the design. I
think the stairway can be built without impacting anyone else's property. Um and um that's really the premise of the design is really more of a safety concern.
>> Have you your town code requires you go to them, right? >> I'm sorry. >> You have to go to the town for construction code to meet. >> No, no building I don't think you need a permit. >> I don't think there are any building permit requirements for exterior
staircase. No. >> So >> maybe there will be. >> No, there's not. >> Not right now. >> So there are no setbacks. In other words, you >> No setbacks. It's also not in under the purview of this board, unfortunately. So I don't think we um need to continue discussing the distance of the stairs to
the boundary of the property. This is a prefer the preferred organization of the stairs to preserve the on-site trees. Maybe as you discuss it, you'd think about some some plantings or something along the the side of the staircase to kind of shield it from the neighbor.
>> They're preserving all on-site plantings. They're only pruning to put the stairs in, which is a feat. I'm thinking if he thinks it's too too close that we could do some kind of a fence because he was glad to see me decide to do this, but his patio is just
right off there. >> Um since since we have to come back, why don't we give the um give an opportunity just to see if that we can offer an alternative to the butter and try to be good neighbors. Um um we didn't know of this concern before tonight. So, you know, let let's see
what we can do and and >> like to get it done this year, but it doesn't look like it now. >> Our next meeting is April I mean April August 21st. >> August 21st. We'll have to wait for Natural Heritage anyway. >> Right. So, yeah, we weren't couldn't vote anyway tonight.
>> So, we'll we'll we'll talk to the butter and see if if we're able to do anything at all. >> Anything else? Anybody else? Okay. Can I hear a motion to continue the August 21st? >> So moved.
>> Second. All in favor? >> I opposed. No. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> That was shelf short drive. Did I I can't sign that right. Or parsonage. >> You could put those to the side, not pass them.
>> Oh, yes, I do. Thank you. >> Okay. Uh, >> talk. >> Sorry. >> That's okay. >> Still learning >> object management. >> Okay. Our next uh order of business is a
continued notice of intent 832479 Crawford land management for Will Rubenstein. Elisha's point proposed treatment invasive hydrillaa through chemical and physical means in a great pond. Um, I've received a letter from uh
Angela Tanner from Crawford asking that the applicant will will will >> they're requesting to withdraw. >> Requesting withdraw without um prejudice. So, no discussion. Just um somebody make
a motion to accept the withdrawal. >> So moved. >> So moved. Seconded, Jack. >> Okay. All in favor? >> I. >> All opposed? No. Do I we have to sign anything with this? >> No. >> I guess so. >> All right.
Uh, next one is Lewis Bay. And I have to recuse myself. So, um, going to switch seats for a second. >> Mr. Huggin is going to take my place. I'm going to go sit in the back. Okay, thank you. All right, this is um
this item is SC 83 2480 29 Lewis Bay Boulevard. Um and where we do we have a um Dan Ola. >> Oh, someone grabbed Dan.
What's the right one? >> This the one for this. >> Try to escape. >> Yeah. Yeah. a little cooler out there. Um the uh Dan Ogula from Down Cape Engineering, I'm a land surveyor and a
civil engineer and uh help helping Yarmouth Shores Condors out with rebuilding their seaw wall. You may recall it was um you know somewhat I guess I'd say shoddily constructed back in the day after Hurricane Bob. The stones were too small. It it really
hasn't served very well. it's uh it's starting to erode and and crumble and uh put the houses at risk. They all predate the act um 30s construction. So, we're they asked us to redevelop it, you know, properly with larger tow stones. Uh the
DMF didn't want the uh toe to be any closer to the uh uh land under water than was existing. So, the revi the last revisions that we've done tightened up that toe. We pulled it in um to be exactly aligned with with the stones as
they are now. Uh the wall is a one and a half to one. Um again, this isn't on the open ocean where you get, you know, huge waves all the time, but occasionally you'll get some some uh storms. Uh the one and a half to one is suggested to dissipate the energy. We did um talk with the
board and we we rolled it back to 2:1 as it heads more to the east to the abuter. Uh luckily we've got a private beach road where we owe out to the middle of that. Uh and that can take some a little bit of scarping and we can replenish the soil as needed for the end effects and
then rolled it back all the way to um a 3 to one uh out out there. So really flatten it right down and just match the existing grades. Um the other small items were um you had requested there's a wall that was built uh seawward of of
the approved plan. uh we'll pull that back uh work with the homeowner on that number six and we replace the Rigosa Rose with Virginia Rose. Um and that's off the top of my head. There might have been one or two other minor items, but hopefully this is now approvable and we
can move forward to help protect these homes uh as as soon as we get permitting through the uh state agencies. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Um as is my practice, I'd like to turn this over to uh Britney to ask some questions and then to the board for their questions. So Britney,
>> the original revetment, was it 2 to1 across the entire revetment? >> The slope of the original, uh, it wasn't exactly um, constructed per per plan, but it was more, I think, like a a three-ish to one constructed. I've got
the original plan. If you give me a second, I could probably tell you. I just want to understand the rationale for not replacing inkind. Was that because since it wasn't constructed to plan, you would have to encroach further into the waterway to keep that gentler slope?
>> Yeah. And also the buffer on the top to widen that out and make it a nice buffer on the top and and also to match the abuing wall to the west. Uh the top of that is about nine. And so that checks in uh very nicely with ours um or 8.7 and we're about eight. Um and it it
it'll tie in nicely to that. And it it's just the proper way to build a wall. You fit them together. you're you're um it's matching uh from from the west to east. The latoral drift is is the same and then it rolls down and flattens uh at at the end effects on the east. So it does
two things. It conserves resources by not mining every stone on Cape Cod to build it and we get a nice wide buffer on top without getting too close to some of these units are fairly close to the water. Uh and you still enjoy the full 10ft buffer. So for those reasons we we chose a one and a half to one which is
you know generally accepted practice >> and there we are maintaining the top of wall elevation. You're not increasing the height. >> Not no higher. No I mean you know if you certainly could go higher but uh the land behind it is varies between 8 and
10. So um there'll be a slight slope in the buffer but um it's not designed to stop all storms but you know certainly be a big help during most storms. Okay, great. I have a couple more minor questions. Your access route you show on
the top of the existing revetment, are you going straight down the existing revetment with a machine? >> Yeah. And and it's not much of a slope and would probably just pull a couple of rocks back and roll right down and then as we rebuild it, obviously that'll be the last few stones to be placed on the way out.
>> Okay. How how wide is the machine that you're using? >> It would be an 8 and 1/2t wide excavator full size. Yeah. Do you need this full 25 ft >> um >> the beach of access? >> It was suggested by our our our wall guy to to store and pile and roll. Um you
know, if you if you insisted on 20, we could probably build it, but 25 is a lot more comfortable for him to to swing and move around rock piles and nudge stuff around. Again, they they go pretty quickly if you give them enough room. The tighter you make it, it's going to be probably another day on the beach. So, that would be the the give and take
on that. >> Okay. And you I think on a plan note you have mean low and mean low is not shown on this plan view. I just want to make sure you're not proposing to go below mean low on your access. >> Absolutely not. No mean low is noted on the profile as about minus 16 and it
would be about zero with our with our work. So okay mid tide um is >> all right. I would recommend as a special condition that that low access mark be at least flagged with a couple of stakes in the field for the pre-construction meeting so we can
review it right before. And my last question for you is um on section C you're showing mitigation plantings at the toe. Is that intentional? Are they supposed to be at the top?
>> Um yeah, that would be that would basically be uh flipped. Um, yeah, we would put them at the top. Oh, I Yeah, I I guess he kind of drew it a little funny, but uh yeah, that's C is is is um
be more accurately placed on the top. For sure. >> If you could just flip that. I just wanted to ensure that there's not going to be any any damage on the toe on that on that beach side. >> Fair enough. Um, and I appreciate the homeowner at number six flexibility to remove that patio.
And I would only re recommend an additional special condition that that be um among the first things to be done prior to the wall is that the pedio be removed so that you can build the wall and have the plantings seamlessly up there.
>> Okay. Um, you know, uh, that that sounds fine. And if it could be tied to the wall construction though, in case they have to budget it a year out or something that um we don't put the homeowner out immediately. Um but it would be done at the same construction period. Uh but prior to the wall is fine.
>> It would need definitely need to be done prior to the wall because the COC issuance would be contingent on the patio being removed from the previous revetment. >> All right. Well, fair enough. Um um fair
enough. That sounds okay. Um, obviously we don't want to be out there before Labor Day. So, >> no >> time it for the fall or something. Yeah. >> Okay. And, uh, no Vista pruning the mitigation area. Thank you. That's all I have. >> Okay.
I'll just ask you the question. Are you good with Mr. Oshel's responses? >> I'm good with his responses. Um, so I would I would just recommend that we get a revised plan for section C so it's not confusing where the mitigation plantings are going.
>> Okay. And uh now the commission questions. Yes. >> Yeah. Thank you. Um do we have a I I thought you had a a picture where you can see actually the access route going down. Do you just so >> um
>> the reason I ask is that it it's it is quite precarious and And I'm I'm glad Britney asked the question again because in your in your um narrative in your notice of intent, you say a standard
backhoe will be used to relocate and transport the rocks for the wall and access will be through the existing driveways and along a path between the existing dwellings. Um you this is probably when I say that I
did have a 30 uh year career in construction otherwise you would know this stuff but to lift a five to six ton stone a backhoe um doesn't cut it because their capacity is usually
>> 600 to 7,000 pound capacity. So you have to step up to an excavator. >> Oh for sure. What we mean by that is a backhoe excavator. Yeah. It's it's a it's a people call things different things, but generally a backhoe excavator. I would normally call it an excavator, but it's not a front loader.
>> Yeah. It's important to note that because >> they can weigh a lot. Like, you know, they have a 50,000 lb capacity weight on them. So, I'm just concerned about getting down there. And aren't you I
don't want any surprises. We don't want any surprises. You think >> it's only a six foot drop in about, you know, 25 ft. >> Oh, yeah. But those, you've seen those guys, you know, they're these guys are artists with these machines. They can
they can put the thing down, spin it, push, pull. Uh they'll get up and down there without any trouble. >> No, no, no, no, no. They That's an expensive mistake. These guys are the guys that do the walls and especially the guys we've been talking to >> lift up stones that heavy.
>> They can the tow stones are yeah they'll use like a probably a 420 you know size machine. It's it's a full as big as you can put on a public road width and and they're heavy but you know that's what they do for a living and they know how to uh access and you can see on the on the plan view the proposed access comes
straight in off the driveway and they'll go straight back out and they'll restore the native plants afterwards. So, uh, no worries. It'll, it's >> You thought it through subsequent to the notice of intent. >> Yes. Talking with him, he looked at it and said, you know, this is the spot.
This is where we want to go, and that's exactly what we have in the plan. And, and they're very comfortable with it. And, uh, again, what's there now isn't that difficult to u flatten out and create a nice little ramp down. So, it'll go well. No, no question. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Good. question. >> No questions. >> All set. >> No. >> Yeah. >> No, >> I have no questions. Seems like everything So, um, anybody in the audience have a question about this project?
Anybody on Zoom online? Guess not. So, I need a motion. Um, let's see. What kind of motion are we looking for? a uh >> to issue an order of conditions with special conditions including those discussed including the patio to be removed prior
no vista pruning um and pending a revised plan showing the mitigation in section C in the proper location. >> So that would be the that's the um >> that's the motion. >> The motion. That sounds like a great motion. >> So moved. >> So moved. Okay. Second.
>> All in favor? I >> I Okay, thank you. Dan, we're gonna we're gonna jump ahead. I don't know if you're still >> We're going to do the COC now just so that >> Yeah, that's I think good because uh it's quick and uh that way it'll be >> then we can go to uh the next item. >> Yes.
>> Okay. So, this is um notice of intent for SC 83165 29 Lewis Bay um Boulevard. Also, um see
Britney or Dan, go ahead. >> Well, um I I would leave it up to Britney. I think u now that we have the conditions established that you're going to have a full 10-ft buffer on the top just like that original order established under this new order and that wall uh put back where it was on
the original order that we're in pretty good order. Um but however you want to handle it. I mean, I think it's enforceable now under this new plan, but >> it's enforceable under the new plan. And I would just say we'll we're I'm recommending you vote to issue but pending removal of the patio so we can
have the paperwork ready to go but we won't issue it to you until you notify us that the patio's out and then we can trade the paperwork um so that we don't overlap the permits. >> That's a splendid way of doing it. You hold the permit until uh that action is done. That's fine with us. Thank you.
>> Okay. >> Anything else? >> No, that's all. Commission. Any questions on this one? >> No. >> No. >> No. No questions. Anybody in the audience? >> Anybody on Zoom? >> Okay. So, the motion would be to issue
the um >> COC. >> I can't hear you. >> Issue the certificate of compliance. >> Certificate of compliance >> pending patio removal. >> Okay. Um I have a >> So moved. >> I'll second. >> Second. >> This is so easy.
>> Okay. All in favor? I >> Hey, we did it >> Thank you, Dan. >> Appreciate your time. >> To our >> Thank you. Do I have to pass this one down? >> Uh, yes, please. There's two there's two
signature pages. The top one is for the order. The bottom one is for the COC. Please sign both. >> All right. You're welcome. at some point when it gets cool enough. >> She cranked it up. >> Nice job.
>> Make a wild guess and say most of you if you're here for the next >> for the next uh >> permit. Uh so I just want to say a couple words before we start. Um we are
doing the permit only dealing with uh um with with water issues and not with traffic, not with smells. Um and so when we get to asking people to if they want
to talk, we're going to have you line up there. I'm going to might have to limit so we can get out of here before midnight. And if you're going off on a tangent or you're going to ask the same question I just we just answered, I'll probably interrupt you. I'll try not to
be rude about it, but we do want to move ahead. I know it's a it's a uh an issue obviously that shows a lot of uh people interested in in dealing with it. So, let me read it into the records.
It is SE832492 Downcape Engineering for Natasha and Oliver Bmpst. I hope I pronounced that right. 88 and 100 mil lane. Proposal to establish a farm with fencing in the riverfront area. Land subject to coastal
storm flowage and the buffer zones to a coastal s coastal bank salt marsh and bordering vegetated wetland. So Dan, are you in on this? >> Yes. Um um the u the the good farmers
here have hired me to uh help them out with with good good hope farm. Uh and they've produced a farm plan. Uh and um uh I've also got a a couple of people supporting me. Um Leo Kakunis, formerly the farm uh board chairman for 20 years
is behind me if you've got questions of him. Very familiar with agriculture on Cape Cod. Um and uh one of the uh primary caretakers of the land uh is with me as well, Pete Sumner, whose whose firm has actually built the farm
for the BZANS. Uh again, it was an old farm, so they didn't have a ton of clearing to do, but they did uh you know, put in the fencing and help with the with the clearing, the irrigation systems, the the fencing, the maintenance, the mowing over continuous period of you know, right now it's
probably 40 years. uh he's been on the property and he'd like to say a few words afterwards. And uh Greg Bzikin who is the son of uh of uh Father Christmas as my father used to call him, the the head of the family. Uh Mr. uh Charles Bzikin was um uh uh very familiar with
the operations in the farm and we just would like to say a few words uh about uh the past use and and uh uh and his memory of of what it is today. Um this is a um um a project that uh enjoys
uh some protections under the wetlands protection act. Um I would even preface my comments by saying that um you know it's great we're in front of you. We want to work with you. Um but if you read the language carefully in the wetlands protection act, it says that um
you know land under agricultural use and and and so forth is protected and not not um regulated. And it says here's the the critical language. Land and agricultural use may lay lie inactive for up to five consecutive years. This
land was never inactive. Um we have a permit here to construct a barn supporting facilities for farm animals, expand the pasture land. They cleared a couple of trees back to the original uh state and uh grazing of farm animals. Uh they selectively cleared some highland.
This is back in 1985. We had a permit from this board. Uh we we maintained the drainage ditch, cleared overhanding and brush selective clearing um trail system where they actually went out into the little freshwater system there and and redid some of the dikes and little bridges and um you know tried to restore
that. And uh these folks here would actually like to manage that. It won't be under this permit, but we'll we'll very likely come back and and uh as is very common like the Cape Cod Hospital is restoring their cranberry bog to get rid of some of those fragmitees and bring back some of the native species. So, they're going to be actively
managing the property. Um but to finish the thought, they selective clearing of that trail uh trail system. They planted some high bush blueberries uh and they constructed the necessary fencing around the open pasture areas to contain the grain grazing animals within those areas. And so, uh, we'll work with you
guys, but just in the background, um, I think it's our position and we've got testimony that this has not been inactive. It has looked just like this for 40 years and, um, it's just like that today, and we'd like to continue that. Uh but to that end, uh we've got a
lot of good information for you and uh we've worked with Britney to provide her additional information and I've got just a few more answers tonight um to uh help uh her understand and and everyone understand uh that this is a uh
permitted agricultural use and it will not be detrimental uh to the environment. So, just um briefly, the the filing is to reestablish the fencing around the outside. Some of the fence is still there if you went out
there and looked. Some of the posts are in, some of the posts are out. A lot of the rails are stacked up in the barn. Uh you know, as they rotted and fell over, some of them were were stacked into the barn. But, um we're just reestablishing the existing fence and pasture. There's a nice little wooded um buffer uh brushy
buffer between the fence and the and the wetland flags. We had um Paul Shay of Independ Independent Environmental out there and he reiterated uh where all those wetlands were um very similar to the ones that Lynn Hamlin had done back
in 2012 when we came in here for the the former owner um and um and permitted a small shed. Uh and that's where this color photograph came from, you know, on that year. And you also there's a small ditch that runs um under Mil Lane. Uh
there's an old, you know, somewhat clogged up culvert and a little uh ditch. Um they had actually expanded the uh north end of that ditch into a little farm pond uh back in the day and uh that's still there. Um there's not a ton of flow from that, but just a little
bit. And there's a nice cattails. It's a regulatable wetland in my opinion. and in Paul's opinion. So, we put the wetland flags around it and uh that's um not to be disturbed, but we would obviously want to maintain uh the farm around it and the grass uh in its
current condition. Um this farm is a commercial operation. These are farmers. They're uh familiar with the process of properly composting waste so that you don't have any odors. Um these are pygmy Nigerian goats.
They're little guys. They're not huge. Um, I remember back in the day the Bosikans had some rather uh large looking uh animals on the site, donkeys and and other things. And I I believe they had a some kind of a a big cow on the south side of the for a while, but
um they um uh this is a lightweight. We're treading lightly on the environment. There's two miniature donkeys uh and and that's about it and and a few people on 17 acres of land. So it's uh it meets all the board of health has requirements on number of animals
and horses per acre and I I believe you could have you know 30 plus horses here. We want 30 pygmy goats and of course you know the biomass goes through a goat it comes out little round pellets that hardly stink at all. They're they're they're very u if you look them up there it's very little uh smell to them and
they're pelletized so they're easy to handle, easy to compost and much less um I wouldn't say noxious than a than a horse because I don't think a horse is particularly noxious but it's uh it's lighter on the environment in terms of the any kind of nitrogen or pathogens. It's just miniaturaturized and easy to
handle basically like rabbit pellets just a little bit bigger. So right now they run a farm in uh in New York and um they've they've purchased this property. Uh they met with uh conservation, they met with uh uh planning, they met um with building
and uh you know they they acknowledge everybody you know thought this was a good idea to restore the farm. So they purchased it and and we're in here now to um to just um you know kind of uh we need a stable permit from the health department and um arguably an order
conditions from you guys. Um, and I I think you can easily find your way to do that given the protections in the act and the fact that this historic use since the 1920s and probably even earlier, but I've got photographs from 1938 showing the same clearing line uh all the way through to date uh that the
farm will will continue on the property. Um, assuming you grant the the order would would have that uh as a part of our permit. And then we're working with the local soil conservation service. It's now called NRCS. uh and uh we met with uh Steve Spear and
um uh who was uh formerly running that operation and and talked about the farm plan and best management practices and um um Oliver and Natasha have met with um uh um their local agent John Lok I
believe his name was and talked about the farm plan and you know basically got good input like this is exactly what I'd do. There is I would say one little problem with them reviewing the farm plan is that um this is um you know it's a it's a a very professional
organization. They don't meet the low-level standard of uh the the Farm Bureau tries to uh help impoverished farmers first apparently. So if you have certain income qualifications they'll they'll review your plan uh first and uh at this point I don't think they they
touch it for a year. So, it would be extreme hardship to wait for them to do uh anything formal, but we are going to join that organization and we've been in contact with them. Uh Leo put us in in in contact with all those good folks and they were familiar with it already uh
and with the sister organizations in New York and um it's just how they like to run their farm. And uh these are um sophisticated people. They're uh they they do not want to smell. They do not want a nuisance. Um they it's going to be their home. And uh the last thing
they want is to is to be uh to to have anything smelly or noxious or hurt the environment. They're careful environmental stewards. Um they use uh some of the compost on the gardens. Um they use cut flowers. That's actually one of the major sources of income on
the farm is um Natasha likes to do huge flower gardens and and cut the flowers and and and breed them and and sell them at at various events. and uh it's kind of um a good source of income and a good use of the property under horiculture as well as the straight agriculture of the
miniature goats. So, um, Adam, you probably read the good far hope farm plan and then we had an addendum with some additional information that that Britney wanted, but just to hit the the highlights, it's a uh the good hope farm currently is a small family farm in in New York, South
Salem, and they're relocating uh and reducing in scale somewhat up to Yarmouthport. Um, it's going to be a sustainable goat herd management with an emphasis on goat kid sales and potential ecles ecological service for invasive plant management. You've of course heard about
goats. They go in and take out they love poison ivy and and and some invasives uh and uh people use them as a as a as a low impact uh invasive plant management scheme. They may get into that, but it's certainly uh um on the table whether they do it or not this year or next
year. field grown flowers and vegetables for retail sale, CSA, and event design. And um their agricultural background, what they went through here, they've um licensed in the New York State District. Um and they've got 40 goats there that they rotate on pastures. Um and they
have the sales and the flowers and a little seasonal farm stand. um here if they do ever do a farm stand it probably just be flowers and no immediate atte uh start of that but uh it's not not a uh an immediate plan but we wouldn't rule it out either.
So um it's going to be a full relocation. Um they're into it. They they enjoy it. They they they like love to practice it. And I'd remind uh the commission that you know farms are getting scarce around Cape Cod. I know you've got Taylor Bray Farm. It's a beautiful farm that the town operates uh
on the east end of town. And it's the same salt mar system and ecosystem here. Um will be much lower impact in our opinion because of the the quantity the weight of the animals that they have here there the large animals. Uh it'll be nothing like that. Much smaller in scale and and um uh but still a
commercial operation and um but probably a little bit more fitting for this end of town. Um we're going to um in in year one we're going to establish the farm our compliance. We're going to apply for the stable permit. uh the farm licensed with the board of health um and uh we've
been in contact with the agent on that and um and had received some positive input. There will be some fencing put up uh right away. Um probably looking at that black invisible fencing uh in a lot of places. Um it's uh 30 heads of the uh
uh Nigerian uh um uh goat or the miniature goats. Um and then the two guardian donkeys. Donkeys, if if you don't know it, are good guard animals. They'll kick the um teeth out of a coyote and and protect uh protect the herd. So, that's what they're there for.
Um or a dog or whatever got in here and was bothering the goats. Utilize six acres of uh pasture land for rotational goat grazing so they they know to move the herd. There's a food food station that got that gets moved and rotated so that they don't overburden any one area.
We intend to keep it keep it beautiful grass the way it is that the goats enjoy. Um goats don't like wet feet, so we're giving them a run-in shelter just outside of the 100 or uh you may have noticed on the revised plan. U that's in the pasture. Um and um they will be uh
moving that feed station and and they'll be cleaning up uh after the goats. The most of the manure happens around the feed station, so it's pretty easy to rake up. And that'll happen three times a week, and it'll go into a proper um composting uh facility that I'll describe in a minute. Um again, year
one, they're going to access fruit tree production, and there's some existing fruit trees out there. They'll look at that. And uh basically, uh the fall breeding for the the spring kidding uh season. Um and uh then in year two, we'll begin the floral activities. The
floral activities are going to be uh mainly in uh the big garden that shows on this plan here. Um and it it's on this is historically been the garden. Um this is the uh fenced area that's north
of of uh the house has two properties. 100 mil lane is you know sort of a guest house or or whatever. Kik's quarters. Uh to the north of that is a a very large fenced garden and that's perfect uh um for what Natasha wants to do with the flowers. So we'll uh it's been weeded
over for a bit. So we're going to pull up uh you know some of the saplings and things and reestablish uh a beautiful wildflower and and and cut flower um meadows in there uh for cultivation. So that's uh probably year two. Uh at this
point they're going to compost all the manure outside of the 100 foot buffer. So you folks look at a 100 ft buffer. We took a look. There's a top of a hill site uh which works perfectly. We're going to put a uh roofed uh concrete pad
beneath uh structure so that there can be no runoff of the of the compost. Uh if you get a large storm and just a compost heap, you could get some, you know, tea coming out of that and and that's not what we want to have uh in the aquifer. So to protect against that, we'll have a roof structure with an
imperous uh uh surface underneath it. And that is uh the NRCS does suggest that as a best management practice and I think that's uh you know, if you want to make that a condition, that's fine. Again, it's outside of your jurisdiction and because it's not generating any flow, it couldn't possibly flow into
your buffer. Um but uh so that's what we're going to do. We'd rather um represent that and and leave it there. and and there is potential for um inside of that to have a a mechanical drum that makes it even easier. Um it's a significant investment. We may or may
not do that, but either way, it's going to be managed. Uh you you um with mulch, I guess I would just get into that quickly. The whole key with that is to is to time it right and to get it warm and it heats itself up and you put the proper moisture content and turn it, keep it airrated and that keeps the
smells down. And if you let something go septic, you get the anorobic bacteria and you get a smell. They do not want to smell. They do not have a smell. Now they there will not be a smell. They, you know, obviously there's, you know, farm odors. You can, you know, smell, you know, a nice earthy earthy odor, but
it's not a noxious smell. Um, and so, uh, in that manner, that compost will be managed carefully. And again, we're not talking about huge horses with t, you know, 40, 50 pounds a day. These are little uh pygmy goats that probably don't weigh 50 lbs, a lot of them. And uh there there's simply not a large
volume of of waste to be dealing with here. And what is composted uh again, she's a naturalist. Uh we understand at the proper time and and and when the soil is ready for it, we hit it with a light compost layer and those the flowers bloom and the grass uh will will will do well. Uh anything that we're
planting and uh and it could even be sold. That's a typical commercial operation. and it'd either be trucked off and sold or given to um people that um are receptive of that. So again, it goes through um there's
irrigation and again this is a continuous use of irrigation. Uh Mr. Ser will testify that that system has been in the ground since the Bzakians. Uh we're going to update it with even more modern timers that when a rainstorm's coming over or even predicted, it won't go off uh to to really manage the water.
Again, it's our own water because we're pulling it from the aquifer, but no need to waste it. Uh, it'll be a state-of-the-art system and that has been in continuous use and, uh, every two weeks m and maintain the the field edge ever since it inception approximately 40 years ago. Um,
so, um, again, we're going to, uh, update some compliance. Just reading from this, um, uh, we're in front of you for a notice of intent to the extent that it's required. Um, we're happy to happy to have you grant one. Um, we're going to register um um the LLC um
submit the fence and gate permits. Old Kings Highway will probably just take a look at the goat sheds and the the ridges of a of a few little uh farm items. Um and um the stable and goat license with the board of health again we had and then um um the supplemental
addendum I I think was was helpful in um having Britney understand that we've read the best management practices. um you know, you want to um only apply uh fertilizer and organics on on soil that's not frozen. It's ready to accept it. And um we're going to um have
records of all of our applications and and is part of the nutrient management plan for in terms of animal husbandry. Uh they employ rotational grazing through a managed hay feeding system. So the goats will go where the food is. We move them around the paddic, keep them from trampling any one area. Um and it's
easy to do. They're used to doing it. They're they're farmers. Uh it will be it will be well done. Um inside the stalls, the animals are housed on an imper permeable flooring that's regularly cleaned. Outside in the paddics, the animals are moved regularly. Um and no single area is
overburdened, as I said. Um and um excess hay residue is collected and composted to prevent smothering vegetation or the buildup of organic materials in sensitive areas. Um so the manure management is um is uh executed with rigor and care following a comprehensive set of BMPPS best
management practices. The goal is to protect the soil water and quality support the plant and animal health and uh again it's collected every day from the stalls and uh three times a week from the pastures and uh the shavings are composted. Um uh what they do now is
there's um parasitic fly predators uh that they can introduce that are normally used as part of agriculture and they're they're not going to run wild like gypsy moths or something like that. But what they do is they eat the maggots out of the uh the regular fly maggots and they knock the fly population way
down. They're very uh instead of spraying, you know, god knows what on them, you just use these natural predators and it and it controls the flies. It's it's a great way to go and we give additional information on that before we apply. Collected manure is on the concrete pad.
It's a roof uh roof concrete pad as I discussed. Uh they're exploring the use of a a biovader which mechanicalizes mechanicizes some of that work. But again, uh that'll be an option. But either way is state-of-the-art. Uh no smell, keep it
aerobic, keep the moisture content right. You can read about it on YouTube or whatever else. But there's a good way to do it and a bad way to do it. the these folks know how to manage it and they will manage it correctly. You can be assured of that. Um it's their, you know, it's a it's their estate and
they their farm and their home and they do not want smells. They want it less than anybody else here. Um so again, they um rely primarily on sustainable sustainable organic practices and natural pest control methods. Um and um
again every once in a while it would be uh if they do need a pesticide or or or something it's uh all uh in compliance with the best industry practices um they use um their approach is rooted in integrated pest management and careful pest monitoring. Um and then uh it's
just uh only only as needed um uh for uh control. Um again it's a pre-existing low impact irrigation system. are not pulling water out of the town um water system. They have their own well that's been there for many years and that
waters to flower gardens and um and it's automated for efficiency. Um and it uh it is based on weather. It can skip uh skip if they get a thunderstorm coming it won't even water uh and smart that way. And um that that supports their um
crop vigor, their conservation and the and the soil integrity. If you over over soak soils obviously you had a better chance of uh of uh uh soils eroding. So through these practices good hope it uh ensures that the agricultural use remains not only environmentally responsible but also aligned with the
region's goals for habitat protection, water quality and sustainable lure uh land stewardship. Um, again, we've been in contact with the local reps from the National Resources Defense Council um um NRCS and u we'll continue to consult with them to review and update and
strengthen the farm plan um as needed to reflect evolving best practices and regulatory uh guidance. And this was the May 2925 updated July 31st. So, you've had this for the required amount of time uh to to review everything. And again, it's uh it's a it's a no- call herd of
Nigerian dwarf goats. These aren't huge horses. They aren't huge cows. They're um they're very small, compact animals. Um and uh they get top-notch care and a couple of miniature gonies uh just for the herd protection. And it's a nice big
pasture. It's existing. All we want to do is put the fence back up, install the state-of-the-art composting, and open for business. And um uh one of the things that did come up is there's a lot of concern about shellfish. And and we get it. The last thing we want to do is
is pollute a shellfish bed. Um the good news is is that there's a natural high point that runs all along the driveway here. And uh most of the pastures are on the the north side of that uh driveway. In fact, uh everything that's on the
north side is is pitched away uh from those sensitive receptors. And so, uh, the normal goat hering operations and the and day-to-day, uh, pellet collection and everything like that is is is is on a gradient that is, you know, gradually drifting towards the east. There you've got, um, the grass.
Grass is a great nitrogen absorber. Um, it'll it'll it'll soak it up. You've got a buffer, a a wooded vegetated buffer before the freshwater sloped wetland and then you get into a deeper wetland and then way at the end is some saltwater intrusion. Uh and and and way out to the
salt marsh. So you've got a a huge bofilter system. We don't think we'll be taxing it at all. Um again, these are little dwarf goats, only 30 of them. We sweep up the the uh um the the tailings and and compost them. And uh you could
hardly think that that would bother shellfish on the other side of the gradient. Uh and that's a commercial operation. And uh their their only concern it's not really nutrients. It's uh ecoli and and uh and um and pathogens. And um what we do for
pathogens is again you have to compost a thermic uh reaction in the compost to get it up 170 degrees or so and and cook it. And that kills all the all the um the bad bacteria that are in it. And again, um, that's a state-of-the-art practice. We'll we'll either use our
normal BMPPS, uh, with, you know, adding water and checking the temperature and stirring it, keeping it aerobic and and fresh. It's kind of an art to doing it, or uh, we may, uh, install the, um, for a little bit less manual labor that that uh, the biou does that automatically.
But either way, um, that will be inert nice nutrients. It's the cycle of life. it's returning nitrogen and and uh and all the the nutrients back to the soil and they get used up mainly by the flower garden. And again, it's applied judiciously and probably a lot of it
will go off site to friends and family and and people that uh appreciate uh good quality all naturatural compost. So, um I think I would probably leave it there. Again, Greg Bilzin wanted to say a word. Peter Sum wanted to just read a
brief statement and Leo is here. He's a wealth of information on farming and agriculture. If you the board has any questions of him, uh he's a well-known on the Cape for um uh uh commercial farming operations. Um but Peter, if you wanted to mention um your statement, I
would appreciate it at this time. If he's still here. Hello, my name is Peter Sumner, owner of Midcape Nurseries. Uh we're a landscape construction and maintenance company that's worked on this piece of property
since probably 1986 or ' 84. Uh my father used to own the company. I bought the company from my father. Back then I was 14 15 years old working for my father on this property also.
uh to whom it may concern. I'm writing to confirm that I, Peter Sumner, uh and the team at MidCape Nurseries have been involved in the ongoing care and land management of 88 mil Lane for
the past 40 years. Our responsibilities have consistently included the maintenance of the barn, fencing, pasture areas, and overall overall grounds. At no point during this period has there been a lapse or interruption
in this work. The property has been continually managed as open fenced pasture land and we have regularly performed tasks such as mowing, brush clearing, structural upkeep and general stewardship to ensure a sust uh a
suitability for agricultural and residential purposes. It has been and remains an active maintained landscape under our care. That's pretty much all I have to say. >> Thank you. Appreciate that very much. I don't know if Greg wanted to say a word. I know he took the time out of his busy
schedule to be here, but we would appreciate it if he did just want to say a word about his his history and memory of the site. >> I'm Greg Baziki. I also live at 100 Warf Lane. Uh I just wanted to say welcome to the neighborhood. Um, this was a working
farm. We had cows, we had sheep, we had goats, we had chickens, we had turkeys, we had big cows, we had a donkey named that everyone loved. Um, there was we had electric fences, we had we moved the animals around. We had two pastures. There was a there's a house on the
corner of water and uh warf that's on the opposite side that's now a home that we kept as a pasture. We were members of the Farm Bureau. Um, it was a job for me for a couple summers as well as a place where my kids grew up. It's a it was a busy place. We had uh at that point Christmas
tree had uh 2,000 employees. We had lots of parties. We had working farmers with families that would come. We went through three different farmers, I believe, and they all raised their families there. So, it was a great place. It's been that way. I'm happy to see farming back on Cape Cod. I'm a big
advocate of the extension service and think farming on Cape Cod is very important. It's sad to go to the Baronipo County Fair and see the vineyard being well more represented than Cape Cod. So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate that very much, Greg. And
again, Leo is here for any questions. He's he's a wealth of knowledge on farming and and and best management practices. Um, >> yeah. He if if we wouldn't mind, he'd just uh like to say a word or two. >> You introduce >> I'm I'm old enough and been here long enough that I announc
>> You introduce yourself first. >> Leo Kakunis. I live in the town of Howitch. I agricultural um expert. I guess I'm a museum now. Uh farming is a museum on Cape Cod. Don't let anybody kid you. And I'm just here because this
is probably the first time in the 40 years that I've been involved not only with Farm Bureau but in promoting agriculture across the Cape that I was contacted by a couple that clearly clearly
have not only the means but want to do the right thing. And that's very rare now in agriculture on the cake. There are a lot of young people that think they can live off the land and think they can make a living. I had 33 acres
in Howitch that we ended up donating to the tech school to make an environmental agricultural education center because there is no way someone was going to buy it and make a living on agriculture. Just doesn't happen. You people today,
the town of Yarmouth, are unbelievably fortunate to have this couple in your community. They want to do the right thing. Today before you, it's real simple. They're just asking you to agree that this property has been continuously
used as a farm and they're looking to uh replace some of the rotted fencing that go around the uh uh the pasture area. And I think with that decision, the the conservation agent will feel comfortable as they move forward because I'm telling
you right now, these people are going to be before you again and again and again. And you are very fortunate. There is a there is a freshwater or it's supposedly called a freshwater wetland on this property. It has been neglected. And one
thing that I have done for the last 40 years is I've approached boards and commissions and committees all across the Cape that the worst thing the worst thing that you can do as a conservation commission is to
just allow the land to sitow. We man came here we did a lot of things we impacted it. sittingow is not management. And I dread the thought that this piece
of property might fall into the hands of someone who just wants to build a beautiful home there and is told that they cannot and should not do anything within 100 ft, 50 ft, 30 ft of that wetland cuz in 40 years it's going to
look like a lot of the outskirts of this property looks. Now we have freshwater fragmmites growing along the edge of the saltwater marsh. That tells me that someone is not managing that fresh water
as it runs down into the salt marsh and it's mixing in an area and creating some an environment for invasive species. That's going to need to be looked at. I've already talked to these people. They're encouraged about coming before you in the future to talk about that.
the area of wetland that's in the middle here. At one time the Belians had it beautifully maintained. There are hand dugout ditches in there that have been neglected. Now that needs to stop. We need to go in there with a management
plan. Manage that property correctly. And I'm going to prove my point by telling you that for years I have asked towns to not walk away from cranberry bogs. Cranberry bogs are the perfect
example of a man-made agricultural wetland. Towns have bought them across the Cape and they happily have said, "We're going to let them go back to nature." Bologoney. That's not what happens. Invasive species move in,
animals move in. It's a man-made structure. So, I'm happy to say now in front of you all that the current way the towns are managing these wetlands is they're going in there with reclaiming
uh plans. It's happening all over Howitch. It's happening down in Falmouth. It's hap I don't know if Yamoth has done one yet, but I know in Howitch there's three or four. They're going in there and tearing it all up, redoing the ditches correctly, putting
in boardwalks and walkways, and they have long-term plans for managing it. So, please, as you think about this project tonight, couple of things I just want you to remember. First and foremost, it has been managed continuously.
irrigation systems, mowings. Sure, you could argue there may not have been an animal on there for a couple of years, but the pastures have been mowed and managed, and that's the key to using the property. Now, the fencing is before you this evening, and I think if we give
them permission to put that fencing in, you will find that they're going to do an outstanding job, and they need to come back for a wealth of other things that is only going to benefit the town of Yamoth. It really is because as you
all know as we do these reclaiming areas and we do these proper management of wetlands the town itself gets some credits if you will or mitigation when they're doing the nitrogen loading when they're looking at that god-awful word
sewering. So believe me this is a lot bigger picture than this is just before you than just someone asking for a few goats. This is a great project and it's a great couple that have the ability, the knowledge, and the wherewithal to
move forward. This is not a pipe dreaming young couple that think they're going to make a living making goat cheese, okay? Which unfortunately happens, but it's not in the best interest of the town. This is. And again, I'm here for any questions or if
you'd like to know any more about impacts of either the animals or the manure management plan. They contacted NCS on their own through me and through my connections. Uh um and uh NRCS is very busy. Current administration, I
don't have to mention it. Cutbacks are crazy. There's probably a year waiting list to actually get a plan from them. However, they've reviewed this stuff at my request and they're right on board. This is exactly what they would be
asking them to do and and and I think that that goes milestones for to understand who this couple is. What they're proposing is already what uh the NRS would would have asked them to do. So, >> thank you. >> All right. Thank you.
>> Commissioners, anything or want to go ahead? >> Yeah. Um Dan, you said that the the land does not has not beenow um and that it's been managed, but then Leo, you said multiple
times that the the land has been neglected and the wetland is neglected. So I'm a little confused as to whether or not the land is actually being managed or if it's sittingow. My comments were directly to the wetland
areas that we are not talking about encroaching or doing anything in tonight. This this area that the Belzikians at one time did maintain it and did have a uh walkway through there, but that is not what we're in front of you tonight. And also,
>> so your comments aren't actually >> addressing the farm use. >> Farm use has absolutely been managed. >> I I'm just going to jump in there. There is a definition in the WPA. Um, you do have to prove commercial use of the farm
for it to still adhere to a wetland exemption and you have not sold commodities. So, it is past the 5 years. So, this is to establish farm use at this property. You have not shown that that has continued for the past 5 years. So, we are under the agreement that
we're establishing the use of the farm. it has not been continually used as a farm. >> Yeah, I I I think we can we can with withhold our opinion on that and and go with that. As long as everything goes our way, it'll be fine. But again, the specific language in here is laying land
in agricultural use may lay lie inactive for up to five consecutive years. This land was never inactive. It was always irrigated, mowed, maintained. And so I think they do specify >> uh >> hey please regardless of you know there there's there's there's definitions that
conflict a little bit and uh and and the W wetlands protection act in general is very supportive of agriculture as is many much of Cape Cod and this is one of the rare jewel farms that are around and these people are going to manage it beautifully and it will be a beautiful
uh feature for Yarmouthport for years to come. >> Yeah, we're not arguing that. I'm just saying the permit was the application was made to establish the use of a farm acknowledging that it had not been used for the past 5 years and that's >> mean was it had not been used so we do
we are we are under that >> I mean if you're saying it has you do need to provide the burden of proof which you have not provided so we are going to go with that >> we just reserve our ability to uh >> you can always provide that and I do not expect you know that the WPA has lots of exemptions once you establish use and
there are so many VMPs that I do believe that you will be able to do that. But just saying >> appreciate the difference in opinion there and that's well well respected and that's why we're here. Uh it's the easiest path is to agree. Um and but uh reserving the fact that there's some language in there that we could we could
hang our head on otherwise. Thank you. >> Bradford, you have other >> No, I was just confused on the fact >> Jack. Well, uh, profit, as Britney brought up, is a major part of whether or not you've got a farm for this. And
so, selling something, not profit itself, but that you're managing it to sell things. >> That is, especially when you're first establishing it, that is that is important. Um, >> well, that's really pretty much what you're doing because it's never you've
never gone through this process before. >> That's not true. Well, this farm has has gone through that process and it was >> in 1985 to 87 when the Bill Zeans were forming it, they absolutely created a farm. They joined the Farm Bureau. It was a farm licensed as a farm and they
had production for for many many many years. uh on about 2012 uh they they sold the property and the the middle middle owner um I I don't have a lot of information interesting character but he absolutely maintained the irrigation and the and the I don't know if he was
selling hay he may have been I I don't know and and uh and and and and excuse me would people in the audience please sir >> if you can't sit there quiet you can leave that's your two choices people
would talk. >> That's your choice. Okay? I'm not arguing with you. A lot of people in here. If you start talking, we're not going to get anywhere. So, I'm asking you all to be quiet so I can hear what Dan has to say and I can hear what the commissioners have to say.
Jack, anything else? Um I guess um the fencing you're going to come you would come back to us for plans on what kind of either maintenance or uh if it meets the standards if you're putting in
new if you're replacing it with stone or whatever you're doing. >> Yeah. So what we have right now is on on the plan a request for fencing and uh you know fencing is generally allowed uh under the wetlands protection act. Your ordinance of course you know would want permission but it was a split rail fence
would do a very sim similar post but in the pres in the presentation materials are the a couple of options on the types of fence but be a normal farm fence and it's against a wetland edge. Uh and also there's a stone wall out front and it's proposed we're going to augment that with a short fence on top because the
little suckers can jump and so we got to we got to put a little bit higher uh fencing along the stone wall. So there's pictures of that in in in the materials. Uh and that's all uh already been provided. Um >> then you um
why are you putting emphasis on the uh trail system that's private property? All of the >> Yeah, it's part of the 17 acres. And uh I went out there myself and located those fences with a GPS back in 2011. They were beautiful trails. As you know, you probably maintain some trails
yourself. if you're not out there every year, they just grow in. So, right now, they're growing in. You'd have to go through there with an electric uh hedge trimmer and trim them up. We're not in there for now, but as is per note number eight, um uh I'm sorry, note number six.
My nature trails are shown per plan book 641, page 57. And that was a a re redivvision plan uh that we had done some years back and we had the data and the they're right located with with precise to the inch on the old dikes and trails that were there. So for
informationational purposes they're shown. Um Britney has pointed out you can't see them right now but they're there. They just need to be worked up. We're not proposing that today. It's not in our narrative. It's just >> point being that is that for your the private owners? >> Yes.
>> Not for the public. Um, you know, the point might be negotiable, but uh, for now it was just for them to go out there and maintain those that those areas. They were little bridges and and trails. Liability being what it is and and and all that. I I couldn't speak for them. But you'll have another bite at the
apple. We'll come back in for for management of that and and we can certainly discuss uh whether there was any public access in any of those. >> And and who are you getting your BMPs? You said environmental defense fund. They don't keep BMPPS. They off they say
they agree with certain people or certain organizations BMPs but they don't actually create BMPPS themselves. >> Massachusetts. >> So like where are they coming from? >> Are we talking about here? >> Yeah. So that would be the uh the soil conservation service NRCS and they have
uh like manure management protecting water resources and nutrient pollution. This is put out by the mass department of food and agricultural and uh in here they have um uh managerial uh processes you know creating the composting site installing and maintaining buffers um
they have you know stream crossings and some things that aren't necessarily applicable >> that doesn't answer my question issue is whose VMPs are you going to use >> oh well I do have some documentation that we can submit >> we were we um um Natasha did uh generate
them uh um based on the documents from the NRCS uh their their their standards and uh we can supply those in writing um that describe uh some of the manure management. um she had given them to John Lock to review and was hoping that
he could say okay but again they're like a an agency that doesn't really like to get into local stuff but uh he had initially reviewed it said this is right what would recommend I can't really make any firm comments you know to a local board but she was hoping to get a little bit more affirmation before she
presented that he had he had approved it or or looked at it uh but we can certainly present that uh data for you uh tomorrow and you can have plenty of time if we continue the meeting uh or I could I I don't know if with her permission read in some of it, but uh those are the uh the ways that we do it.
It's uh cover the shed. Um you know uh have it on an impervious surface for the composting >> and I'm going to stop you just repeating what we already we've heard about the coverage shed. We've heard about all that. We need to move ahead. >> Fair enough. >> Anybody else? Go ahead. >> I answer his question about money.
>> I have a question. >> Ellie's forward. Um, let's let's talk about uh wetlands. Seems to be >> while we're here. >> Yeah, while we're here, let's talk about the the adjacent wetlands. I'm just trying to understand what what the water
does, you know, in a high uh high flood uh time. And there were a lot of public comments on record and one of them in particular was uh from a neighbor who had some correspondence uh with someone from the city on the shell fishing and howitz mill pond um
which you don't really really locate on the plan. Um the concern then is that it's that pawn has been closed and because of uh doesn't I think who wrote this
Cassandra from um she's the town of Yarmouth division of natural resources apparently there has been some feal caulifform bacteria etc etc um so obviously that probably is a concern of of of the specifically this public this
per this neighbor as well as I'm sure other people in the audience. So, I know you know the land and I I want to know how this flows and why you chose to put the manure composting area so close or
it well appears to be close to to the pond. And I wasn't so concerned until I saw that there is a culvert under the road that goes directly into the pond. So logically you're thinking well that
probably will take um that that probably would take some you know to manure whatever I mean. So number my question is have you looked at the impact to this pond? Have you looked at the shape of
this culvert? Uh and are you concerned at all with the location of the proposed manure composting area as it relates to the impact to the adjacent wetland i.e.
pond? >> Sure. So, uh Dan Ogula from Down Cape, I'll respond to that. Um the u manure was uh was chosen because it's on the on the high point of a hill. Um, and um, you're right, there is um, there is a
small pond. On the 1950s plan, it was just a little ditch with a with a with a pipe underneath Mil Lane. And there's no question that R during a large storm event, some runoff from our site could enter that wetland system and go under the pond and into um, Helitz Mill Pond,
which is the concern for shellfishing. And Dr. Gable, who is the Westerly of Butter, uh, brought that up in a in a well-written letter. And um u the answer is >> referring >> Yeah. Yeah. The answer is no. I I I'm not concerned because it's a roof structure with an impervious bottom. So
uh were it an open pit uh with a pad that was tipped towards that side, then yes, uh I think that there would be a chance in a in a huge event that it could somehow travel, you know, 50 feet across a level field down the drive and and possibly get into that. It it
absolutely could, but with a roof on it and and walls on three sides and an imperous bottom, uh there's no chance for that uh any any significant amount of water to come and and go into that. And um there is a vegetable garden that's about 40 ft away, but again, it's
a vegetable garden. She lightly dusts it with a little bit of compost. This compost has been thermatically uh uh it's inert. It does not have pathogens in it. It's natural. any soil that you pick up has, you know, many many many bacteria living in it and and that's what what what makes the circle of life
work, all the funguses and bacteria, but um the the she manages it and and would not put it on a time when you've got a huge thunderstorm coming or something. And I would say too that uh that is a beautiful little wetland with with uh with natural cattails in it. It's it's
well managed and it provides, you know, it's it's a very good filter in and of itself and it's probably a slow drain under the road, but I'm not saying that anything's getting in there, but just in the off chance that somebody could say that it would, it's probably one of the better ways you could ever treat
anything uh before it got over to a salt >> is you do want that flow. I mean, you want that flow to sit in in water when it does flood. So, did you do due diligence and check that the culvert is is doing its job?
>> Um, not recently. I shot at the inverted 71 on the north side and it was a little less on the south when we shot it, but um I haven't been in there lately. Um, but uh as a condition of approval, we could certainly review that and and clean it out if needed. >> Yeah, I think I think that's in the
interest of of of of the farm. >> Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of coastal flooding, Absolutely. >> Yeah. In terms of coastal flooding, the highest flood we've ever gotten is about a 10 103 with one of those big norers a few years back. And and um that would
barely get up into that little uh pond area. The majority of the site is is high and dry of that >> plateaued. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's it is and and um you know, to your point, the the compost is up on a hill that could tip that way, but uh it's got a roof on it and a solid
bottom and therefore not an issue. So what you're saying though is that you are confident the manure is intact. Yes. >> And that so that's that's a given. That's good. And that what I'm saying is you want the water you want the rainfall to to flow away under the street and
>> yeah as it always has. There's a pretty good gradient down and and and the road is >> work in your favor. So yes, I'd like that as a condition to have the culvert >> looked at. Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Paul. Yeah. Um, thank you for the
interesting discussion. The thing is that I guess I have to get some clarity on at this particular point. Has has a a a specific farm plan been presented, >> Britney? >> They submitted a farm plan.
>> Did it okay? So, >> a couple pages. So, um, our job right now is to make is to possibly approve that farm plan or to do something else. >> At this point, I think we would still need some additional information to
address. >> So, that's kind of my point. There seems like there's a lot of pieces to this puzzle that have to be um considered. Um there seems to be some disagreement in terms I think in terms of whether or not this has been a a continuing farm
operation. It seems like uh from what Britney said is that there's some doubt as to that and I think rather than us getting involved in that kind of discussion, we take it from the point of what does the presentation or the submission of a farm plan and a
consideration of that plan based on our responsibilities having to do with the wetland protection act and those types of things. I'm sure there are people sitting in the audience who are in favor of this proposal and maybe there's somebody who doesn't like the proposal. But the thing is I think our job in my
opinion is to get really clarity in terms of what is the specific farm plan having to do with manure, having to do with runoff, having to do with rebuilding fences, all the rest of it. and all the information we can get to
clearly understand that and how it applies to this obviously incredible piece of property that was used in a certain way in the past. It fell into some disuse and now you do have people interested in creating a plan for
consideration to make it a farm again. And that's what we would do is consider that specific plan and and not, you know, not kind of get caught in the middle in terms of emotions regarding what this area should be or what it
shouldn't be. Um, so anyway, if that makes any sense at all, I I I would just like to have those thoughts considered as we move along. That's just my opinion. I think what we have to understand is it's our job to protect um the wetlands
and the water quality, right? >> And that's what we're focusing on, not our job to worry about smells and >> yeah, >> traffic and other things and diseases or whatever. Mad cow disease, someone said. Um so we uh we need to focus on that and
that has to be clear to us, >> right? >> The plan has to be specific to those things, >> right? Otherwise, it's very difficult to to kind of understand the the um the pluses and minuses in terms of how to make it something uh that these folks
who own it want it to be. >> Okay? >> And then and then as far as I'm concerned, speaking only for myself, then I could vote in accordance with that specific plan. And if I think personally if it doesn't meet the criteria having to do with the our
responsibilities then I might I I would not be in favor of it. If if it meets all of those criteria and there's I think there's more to add to that too. Um then we would go from there. >> I think we have you know we have some
concerns and um you've answered some of them. Um, we know the nature trails are not relevant to what we're talking about, so we won't talk about it anymore. Um, I do have a question of where the uh, you mentioned the vegetable area and the orchard. I assume
the orchard is is somewhere somewhere. >> Well, there's a large fruit tree here. Um, I believe there's some others in this area here. The the red is the uh is is the um the big flower fence flower garden. That's the proposed fence on the north side. the vegetables going.
>> Yeah, that's that that that would be the mostly cut flowers there. Um I don't know that specifically we're doing um um >> vegetables. >> Yeah, same area. >> Okay. And are they intending to have a farm stand?
>> As I said, not at this time. >> Okay. >> We we'll we'll we'll be back if we want to do that. But yeah. Um when you you mentioned this compost area which is a concern of mine. Uh and um how high is the wall over?
So um what it goes from zero to about 3 ft high is what we've got shown there. To get the roof on it, I'll probably nudge it forward a little bit about where it says uh area in the U proposed manure composting area on the site plan. Um, and then, uh, it'll look look like
basically just a shed, little shed roof similar to that. Yep. Yeah. >> That looks higher than 3 ft. That's what I'm asking. >> Yeah, exactly. Um, this one um, correct? Yep. >> Is it is it the roof? Is it open in the back then? >> Um, it's a three-sided uh, open in the
front so you can you can access. >> Okay. >> Right. So, my only concern >> built into the hill a little bit. only concern is one of the pictures you sent which wasn't an was wasn't roofed is that the compost pile looked higher than the walls >> that one there. >> Yeah.
>> And I would not approve that. >> Yeah. Well, unless there's a roof that isn't shown, but I it doesn't look like there is. Right. I don't understood. Best management practices. And again, um, to the point made earlier, uh, Britney went through this very carefully and had about four questions, uh,
including, you know, show where the flower garden is, um, and, uh, the compost area there. We have a plan worked up and we'll submit that probably tomorrow, uh, that goes over with more specivity the exact things I've described, uh, just so you have it in
writing. Uh, you know, keep it aerobic, all the things we talked about. Uh and uh again, we've talked with the local NRCS rep and he read the farm plan and and was very comfortable, but we want to make sure that uh we talked to him again before uh putting that in writing.
>> Anything else from the commission, Miss Britney? As as Dan said, I submitted some questions. Um, and so I I do appreciate the detail they've provided so far, but I would like for the owners to submit specifically the BMPs that they are
deploying and where. Um, just saying we're going to follow all the BMPs. I just do need to know which how they're doing it, what they are. And um, you did mention there's a roof on the composting area. And we are looking at um they do specify the
amount of times weekly manure will be removed from the feeding area but not from the pasture. I I'm looking for detail on >> three times a week. Yeah, we'll we'll put that in writing. >> Okay. Yeah, just put that in writing for us. I'm happy to keep the trails on the map even though they're not going to be maintained because of the prior permit.
Um and I just do want to make a note that someone said a good vegetated buffer exists. There's no there's little to zero vegetated buffer that exists between the pasture lawn area and the vegetated wetland. It ranges between
zero and maybe 12 12 15 ft in some areas. Some areas the pasture butts right up against to the vegetated wetland. However, that's not the most landward resource area at the site. There is a coastal bank which the pasture goes right through. So there is
elevations. The coastal bank is delineating that flood plane break. Um, and so the goats will be grazing on and below the coastal bank in portions of this property. And so the the buffer zones you see on the plan, there are coastal bank and wetland. Um, but the
ones that are called out on this side are only for the wetland. Just note that there is a coastal bank landward of that. And so that means there is a gradual slope downward to the wetlands in most of the pasture area. And so that's primarily my
concern is just maintaining the ability to prevent a disturbance in water quality from entering those wetlands. >> 100%. And and we need uh something from from in the plans that >> Yeah. in those written comments through the BMP descriptions. Um just describe
how you're going to >> we'll put the feeding stations adjacent to the the fence. We'll keep them up on the higher side of the pasture. We'll we'll we'll clean up all the all the trimmings three times a week and uh and uh and follow the u the other BMPs that they suggest and um yes and and having
everything on the east side again that's uh that's towards the wetland that's not near the shellfish area just to be absolutely clear it's way way from them hydraulically >> and so with working with NRCS um I understand they're not going to create a farm plan for you have been working with
them to review your plan um they've seemed you've seemed like you've been able to get a meeting with them so far. They've reviewed something. >> We know the right people, >> but they're not willing to put something in writing approving the farm plan or making suggestions. Why not? >> Um well, I'll give you a little brief history. I don't know if any of you know
or not, but that it was created back in the 1930s for the Dust Bowl. And the reason is that most farmers did not want to take um best management practices from federal employees and we were known to run them off the farm with a shotgun. So what happened was in 1930 the local
local uh group established what is called the conservation district. Conservation district is a contract that farmers sign with the local group and then there is a local USDA representative from the federal
government who runs the local NRCS office. So with all that said, I will just once again say that because of federal funding, because of a lot of layoffs, because a lot of uh early retirees,
and because Cape Cod lacks farmers, I mean, the federal government is bringing its um resources to areas that that need it. And right now, Cape Cod is not a big call for farmers. We are losing cranberry growers. I think there's five
of us left on the Cape and when I started the business 30 years ago, there had to be 30 or 40 of us here. I I'm I'm pushing it if there's five left. So, there's not an awful lot of work for the local NRCS office when they again have criteria that you have to meet. We have
to join the the um um district first. That that's a application process. uh that takes time and then as Dan said earlier they review the plans on financial requirements first and foremost. So if you are of of poverty
level income they will review your plan first. Fortunately for this couple they're not of that criteria. So it was told to me that if they file everything now it won't be a year before they will actually get a plan. But off the record
and not being able to write a letter, they said that the plan that I submitted and all the stuff that you have in front of you is exactly what they would have required. And I and I stand on my uh word on that one. Um and uh they don't
come to meetings. They don't try to enforce their beliefs on local boards and committees. I don't know if you've had them come before you before, but that's not what they do. They basically are here to help the farmers. >> Okay, understood. >> So, anything else? Um my last item is that novas to pruning would be included
in this farming permit, but I understand they'd be coming back to us for other things. So they shouldn't continue doing that until they have a permit for it. Thank you. >> Anybody else in the commission? >> I just wanted clarity on what they need to provide. There's a lot of talk about
best management practices. Are they simply going uh to have to revise this addendum? Is that what we're looking for? Um this >> in addition to I mean everything we discussed here um in addition to that I I sent Dan a couple questions but it's
kind of been discussed already just a description of the BMPs that they're talking about. >> Um >> it'll be in your hands probably tomorrow uh just pending Leo's final review. But uh the BMPs are all carefully discussed. Uh most of the concerns seem to focus
around u you know manure management composting >> um and and their effective you know whether that will leech or won't leech and so um u that's what we focused on is that manure management and composting plan um and you'll have that in your
hand um um probably tomorrow and uh and plenty of time to review it for the next meeting. Dave, >> yes. >> Don't forget erosion. >> Yes. Yeah. And there's there's language specifically in the Wetlands Protection Act that talks about erosion on fields and best management practices. And it's
all about moving the crop, moving the herd and and not over overt taxing the soil and uh we're following those uh best management practices as well. >> I would also like to make a recommendation, Dan. Um, instead of having
an additional addendum to our farm plan plus addendum, can we combine the whole farm plan into a single PDF with all the addendums? >> Yes. >> With a new date. >> Yeah. >> So that we can just stamp one thing. >> Yes. Um, just so it's all the
information is in one clear spot. >> Be happy to do that. >> Okay. Um, can you keep it short? >> I will keep it very short. I just want to answer Mr. Frost's question or comment that um if you are going to deliberate at any time on what is agriculture or isn't agriculture, I
would I want to enlighten him that there's only two statute under the Massachusetts general law 61A which requires you to file permits with a local tax board to get a tax break. And if you want to do that, you have to
show a certain amount of income produced by agriculture. The other one is half of 4DA section 3. If you have 2 acres or less, you can qualify as an agricultural use if you
produce $1,000 per annually per acre. If you have 5 acres or more, there is no requirement for income. And also I remind you under 28 1281A, the Massachusetts definition of agriculture,
there is no language requiring a farmer to make money or show income. It's very clear that agricultural practices are defined in that statute. >> So I just want to make sure you realize that. Don't you have to try to make
money? >> Trying, making money, and showing that you've made money are two entirely different things. >> Trying that counts. >> Pardon me. >> It's the trying that >> Absolut. Well, again, as far as the Wetland Protection Act goes, uh, I know cranberry bogs that are mowed
continuously, year after year after year. And some growers do not grow a crop, but they do not lose their agricultural exemptions or their agricultural status even though they have not produced a single cranberry,
but they are doing their due diligence. They're just poor. They're poor cranberry growers, I guess. So, the the statute's pretty clear. You do not have to show income. >> I think we can go around and around. It's not our purview. >> We have a lot of people here who who've been very patient and I appreciate it.
Um obviously you can see from our meeting that there was lots of controversy from the very first um person coming up in front of us and that's and remember we are all volunteers too. So and we put a lot of
time into this and a lot of our heart to keep uh the environment safe and clean and all of those things. So what I would like is if you would like to speak if I could see how many people and are going to ask to talk if you could just stand
up. So I just see how many people are there. Okay great. So, if we could keep your I'm not going to try to interrupt you, but I'm I'm going to say what I said earlier, and that is that if you can keep your focus to wetland water
quality, and if you don't, I'm going to kind of lightly, I hope, interrupt you and say, can we refocus? And if somebody says something you were going to say, you can we hear it from the first person. We don't need you to hear it from the second, third, and fourth
person. So, if you would introduce yourself and give us your talk, that would be great. If you can limit yourself to two or three minutes, that would be fine, too. >> Yes. My name is Ron Gable, and I'm uh an abutter. We share boundary with 88 and 100 mil lane.
>> A little louder, please. Uh my concern has to do with water quality and it specifically has to do with the contamination of of mil pond with uh the runoff uh from the barn from
the uh farm. Um, as you probably know, uh, Mil Pond has a fragile environmental status in that the shellfish constable shuts down, uh, the pond to um to
shellfishing uh, several times a year, usually after heavy rainfall. And that of course has to do with the runoff from any property that feeds into um into the pond. Uh a
few facts, there are seven stalls in the barn. Um the proposal is for for uh 30 um two animals and that leaves 25 who are going to be constantly outside
presumably depositing their manure in the pasture land. Um Dr. Mr. Oula mentioned that um the manure is going to be harvested from the pasture land three times a week. That means that in the
vast majority of of the time um the manure is going to be available for runoff and the composting area is all well and good. Um but it will not it
will not contain um all of the manure by any stretch uh during the continuous period. Um the just a few more facts. The the barn is about 140 ft from the
wetlands. Um the hydrostatic barrier from the barn down to um the low tide mean low tide is approximately uh 28 ft. So that there's ample uh in fact uh very
strong down hydrostatic downgradient um from the area that that the manure is going to be produced uh into the pond. Uh so uh my concern really is um and I'm
fairly certain from the facts and I think that that um I could conjure up some more data to uh assert that the manure that's going to be produced by these these uh 32 animals
will in fact uh contaminate uh the uh the waterway. uh or the um mil pond. Do you have any questions of me and my
assertion of facts? >> No. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Question for Dan, though. There reason why you can't move the compost uh to another place on the land? >> Um no. There's again it's a se you could
think of it as a sealed unit. So, if you if we if we wanted to move it to the north side of the barn, we could do that. Um, right now it's more than 100 ft from the wetland, which I just thought was a nice thing. It gets it out of your jurisdiction, but um if there's
u a reason to move it, you show me where and I'll analyze it and uh I would be happy to look at that as an option. But again, there's there's no moving pasture land and and as I said, there will be occupancy of animals on
that pasture land 24 hours a day. And if it's harvested three times a week, um that's not going to cut it. really doesn't make much difference because the especially in a rainfall uh there is 100% certainty that California bacteria
will will leech from that manure. >> Thanks for your comment. >> Who is next? Please >> excuse me. Please keep your comments only to if you're at the podium. Thank you. in the pond every year. >> Please,
>> if you can't be quiet, you can leave. Those are your two options. I don't know who's >> if you continue ignoring us, we will ask you to leave. >> Thank you. >> My name is Paul Galvin, 25 Gingerbread Lane, Yamathport. I I have kind of a
point of information. Uh be before things started and Mr. Chairman, you realize that there was quite a crowd here and you pre-chasticize us. I I mean that lightly for making sure that if we came up and talk, we talked about the relevance of why we're here tonight. And
I agree with that. But the first 50 minutes of presentation was anything but that. And I may be alone in thinking that, but we got a history of the farm and this donkey and that goat, which you had told us at the beginning, not why we were here. And it wasn't until you
brought us back by asking a question, getting back to the reason we're here. And I just want to make a point of that because I think most of the people are going to speak and have something to say are going to be relevant to what we hear tonight. But it got way out of that
after you made the chastisation to the people who hadn't even yet spoken. So >> I'm not going to argue with you. >> I'm done. Thank you. >> Next, please. >> I My name is Sanjay Pallet. I live in that neighborhood actually three or four houses from
there. One of the things I do is I walk every morning and I pass by that property. It's a beautiful place, very peaceful. Uh it's a good thing I came here to this
hearing. I learned lot of stuff which I didn't know. One of the things that's happening is you are hearing by hearsay oh there will be goats there will be cheese making or whatever is it possible
to get a business plan I understand this is an agricultural business I don't know anything about agriculture or the conservation but is there a document that we can get hold of which gives a
business plan and what the future would be. I'm more interested in the future, not in the past. And it will be very helpful for the people who live there to get an idea
exactly what the plans are. And I don't understand all the things that you have talked about. Those are technical details but I have worked all my life professionally in a business organization and I know how business
organizations work. >> Okay. Thank you. I know what you're saying. It's >> 100% relevant to us but I think it's a good question and um a >> farm plan with a timeline was provided in the application material. You can find it in the publicly available material online.
>> You can find it online. We can go on the website. >> Yes. >> The farm plan is a pretty good layout of just what you're talking about. >> Next, please. >> Thank you. Can you hear me? >> Yep. >> Good evening. My name is Joshua Stain and my wife uh Rachel's and my property
looks directly across Water Street at 88 Mil Lane. Uh we have submitted a letter detailing the proposed project's numerous serious conservation related pro problems. Rather than repeat the points in that here, I want to use my limited time to zoom out and focus the
commission on the big picture. Uh I do want to note in passing that we're grateful that the commission has already recognized that uh the farm has beenow and hasn't operated in 13 years and therefore the full weight of the wetlands regulation should apply.
Um today Howitz Mill Pond, Mil Creek, Shortwarf Creek, and Water Street's vegetation and wildlife rich conservation land are gems. They are supporting commercial shellfishing, fishing, kaying, diverse wildlife, including majestic shorebirds, and
beautiful vistas. To reach that point, however, took decades of effort. For 30 years, Mil Pond was close to shell fishing due to fecal caulifform bacteria. It took the town's major commitment, funding, and water quality data collection efforts to convince the
Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries to reopen it in 2012 when the Belellazikians interestingly sold that property. Since then, as the town strives to revitalize shell fishing there, the EPA has still repeatedly deemed these waters impaired due to
fecal caulifform bacteria. And it's not true, as was noted by Mr. Oha that the maximum high tide is only during a flood 10'3 in. You can go on Noah and see the data that it's 106 at least every single year.
For years storm water runoff has contributed to nitrogen exceeded in these waters. Uh as Mr. Kahun uh Kunis perhaps I'm pronouncing his name incorrectly noted there are already lots of fragmitees in the area and that comes from excess nitrogen. Again, the town
has committed to a multi-phase, multi-million dollar plan to combat such exceedences in Yarmouth. It should do all it can to avoid seeding such exceedences by letting 32 farm animals nitrogen-rich excrement within 130 ft of
these waters. Goats may not be and particularly dwarf goats may not be as large as cows or horses, but you can look up that the percent nitrogen content of their manure is greater. For 15 to 20 years, diverse wildlife has
freely migrated across water streets conservation land and used the natural heritage and endangered species programs area just off of Mil Lane, 88 Mil Lane. They have been unimpeded, those animals, by the proposed alterations and wall of fencing. Having prioritized protecting
these lands, the the wetlands and increasing the endangered wildlife, the town should not abandon that regulatory approach out of fear of denying a farm or mischaracterization that this commercial property somehow would restore the prior
farm. Since 88 Mil Lane's farm application 40 years ago, our neighborhood has changed a lot. For instance, my lot was vacant. The 2acre lot abuing 88 Mill and along Mil Pond was also vacant and was used as an
animal pasture by the then owners. 88 Mill itself was a gentleman's farm. You know, neighbors would collect or catch and return animals that strayed. It wasn't a commercial operation. Never mind the five different commercial operations that have been proposed here.
Mr. Oh forgot to mention in his comments the business plan's mention of a crearyy and a dairy as well and that Taylor Bray Farm is run by the town and is non-commercial and much less was known about animal
impact and animalto animal disease risk such as mid July's first case of West Nile virus in Massachusetts that was identified in a farm animal which was in a goat. Um time and extensive effort have taught
us how important and fragile Mil Pond, Mil Creek, and the surrounding areas are to all the things that this commission is supposed to consider: shell fishing, wildlife migration, and recreation and wetlands. For these reasons and several
identified in our letter, we do not believe that the proposed farm at 8800 Mil Lane would be compliant with the towns or the state's environmental regulations and urge the commission not to put us and our fragile resources at risk.
I have just two questions I'd like to raise um with members of the uh who represent the applicants if I could. One, >> who are you asking the questions to? >> To the folks at the table. Um, I I think we need to move ahead. Can you put them
in writing? And >> Sure. I we we offered to submit requests in writing to Britney earlier before the hearing and we're told that we were unable to do that, but I'd be happy to read the two now to the commission if that'd be helpful. >> Read the two and but I'm not expecting Dan to answer them. He'll answer them
later. The Commonwealth Manure Management Guidance, which was filed by the applicant, says that manure should be stored in a covered, contained, impermeable facility able to hold 3 to six months of manure and not quote on
sloped lands or areas end quote. The proposed initial 32 animals will generate hundreds of pounds or by some estimates more than half a ton of manure per week. Doesn't the planned open air concrete manure pad and its proposed
location by a steep slope not comply with that guidance? And if that's true, how can the plan be modified to comply? Second, that same manure management guidance again filed by the applicant says that manure should not be spread in
the winter or early spring. As noted, the proposed initial 32 animals will generate hundreds of pounds, if not more, of manure each week. The applicant's late addendum suggests that the applicant is considering a Biovader 308. This is a steel tube that's roughly
3 feet by 8 ft, estimated to process about 60 lbs of manure per day. That's 360 lbs a week if you're running six days a week. and that is only a fraction of the amount of manure generated by these animals. What will the applicant
do with the remaining hundreds of pounds of manure per week generally and especially during the non-spreading part types of the parts of the year. Thank you. >> Yeah, would be happy to reply in writing to that. Those are pretty
straightforward questions and uh I have a few comments about his his comments, but I'll I'll save them. Thank you. >> Next, please. >> Um I'm Brian Hardy. I live at 14 Hilly. Uh my wife and I are both here tonight. Um we totally admire this property and
we welcome Natasha and Oliver to the neighborhood. Um and I don't think there's any doubt from any of the neighbors um in their ability to operate and maintain a farm. Couple of things I think went missing and I put this in my comments that I submitted and that is
the Massachusetts flood risk model 2050. If you look at that model, it totally engulfs that whole barn area, the manure area, which was brought up about why it has to be on the corner of Mill Lane and and um in Water Street. If you look at
the town uh record, Mil Lane, Water Street, Warf Lane are um I'm drawing a blank on the on the termination, but they're considered scenic byways if I'm not mistaken. And I'm curious as to are there any kind of additional regulations
or standards that need to be met um in order to have anything um any project put on that? So, that's more of a question. The other question I have too is this best management practice. We've heard that term used quite a bit here tonight and I just
I'm curious as to who's managing that. Um, and we don't have to answer it tonight, but I think it's a I think it's a great question. Who manages it? Is it the property owner? Is it you as a conservation commission? Because if it's the property owner, it's literally like having an employee handbook with one
employee, right? Who's going to look at that? who's gonna make sure that those best management practices are being upheld. And again, I'm I'm not I you know, I've done a little bit of research on Good Hope and seems like they operate
a very tight-knit farm and I I I don't discredit that, but what if, right? And as as someone I live 50 yards from the barn, so I'm not an butter cuz I'm past 100, but I'm 150 ft from the barn. So,
I'm I'm really concerned. Um, that's all I have. And, you know, also too, I want to thank Joshua Stain. He's put a lot of effort in. Um, I've I've had a lot of dialogue with him and I really appreciate what he's done, what he said, and um, and the passion around
the neighbors um, etc. So, thank you for listening. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? Zoom. >> Hi, my name is Michael Herity. Michael Herity, sorry. I'm in a butter um probably less than 50 ft from the property that we're discussing tonight.
>> What address? >> 122 Water Street. >> Thank you. >> So, primarily I'm up here to really support everything that my name is Josh and Brian just went over and Dr. Gable as well. So, uh, even in my letter that was submitted, a lot of those items were
actually covered. What's still unclear to me is he keeps talking about these goats that like they're pets and you know what, you know, what the compost situation will be. Can someone give me or tell me exactly what 32 goats will
produce for urine and compost or manure if I'm 50 yards away or less? What am I going to see? What am I going to smell? Yeah, we'd be happy to provide some estimates. I >> I know we'll get those, but we we're not getting these questions up front or or even covered in the plan.
>> So, I'm I'm appreciative of of being able to speak like this, but at the same time, >> this information on this level is really slow and coming through us in the community. So, it's really hard for us to kind of get behind our new neighbors if that's what they want to do.
>> Okay. >> And that's all I had. >> Thank you. Hi, I'm Rachel Rosen. I'm Josh's wife. And um I just uh want to point out I'm actually a pediatric gastronurologist. So my whole life is dealing with small poop and um and how little poop has a
very impact big impact on disease. And so I do just want to reiterate what um Dr. Gable had said which is you know I've seen people with menitis I've seen people with E.coli coli related sepsis and things like that and I think until you've seen it you don't understand what
the impact of this is in the community >> saying but I'm going to guess that's going to be something to deal with the health department >> it it will be but I just want to make sure that this concept of small poop is just a misnomer >> okay thank you >> next
My name is Kathy Herity. Um I live at 122 Water Street. My husband Michael just spoke. Um a couple things. I'm actually surprised how far along some of this project was. Um just to put a couple things. I heard through um this gentleman earlier that they already met
with conservation and um I think board of health. I thought I heard um prior to excuse me, >> health director. >> Okay. health director. Um I was just at a board of health meeting on Monday and they knew nothing about this project which I think is extremely important for
them to know about. Um and also just as an I'm only 100 feet away and all I did was get a form letter in the mail. Had no idea what this was and it arrived on July 7th at my house. So I know when everyone's saying about being a good neighbor, it would have
been really no nice to know somebody who I can pretty much see the barn from here to here to know what was going on. Okay. Again. Um, >> so I have one question. >> The water problem issues. >> No, this is a question actually that was in their applicant um in their application >> and I'm wondering it says is is the
applicant genuinely willing as the application states to leave the site as is without land alterations, fencing or commercial farming and other businesses. So that was in their application and I'm wondering if that's genuinely a
consideration. Thank you. I'm not sure I understand that one. >> They came to us. How long ago? >> I'm sorry. >> How long ago did they come to us? Did Did we have our first hearing? >> Okay. >> I don't know. All the abutter notices
sent were sent out as required by the WPA. >> Did they come? Is this our second hearing or our first? >> This is our first hearing on this item. >> I just want to be clear. This is our first hearing with the uh about the farm. So, we haven't hidden anything or anything. You know, we've spent
>> two weeks looking at the plans and going to the farm. I've been there twice. Um, so, you know, there's nothing hidden here about uh previous meetings or, you know, we can't meet the four of us can't meet. Two of us can meet, but four of us
can't meet without breaking laws. So, I just want to be clear that there's nothing subversive going on at this side of the table. Is there anybody else? I have to move to the uh online people. Are there anybody on Zoom? Could you raise your hand?
>> Gary. Gary's iPhone. >> Gary, >> what is it? >> Glenn. >> Glenn. Wow. Glenn, >> guess I need new glasses. Glenn's iPhone. >> Glenn Beasley. >> There you go. Glenn, can you >> Can you talk? >> Thank you for your time. >> Glenn Glenn, you're gonna have to talk a little louder.
>> All right. Can you hear me now? >> Yeah, better. >> That's good. Um thank you for the time and uh two two quick questions. One is to understand the standards and it's regarding the uh containment and I think
um it's really what what is the measure? Is it the fact that there was a high tide at 10 foot three or 10 foot 6 or is it the 100year or thousand-year storm that has that arc that's driven uh that seems to drive all
of us towards whether it's uh insurance or water protection and building and we should use those standards or are we using some other standard to to develop that the place where that containment center is. Okay, second question.
>> And the second question I have is regarding the wetlands and some of the overgrowth. And I certainly appreciate our our new neighbors um at least giving us a hint that we working with the commission to start to address some of those uh fragmitees and the other
problems that we're having. But my question to the commission is before another truck moves on the area, this current condition of the marsh, uh the Kevin Street Bridge area in particular and and along Water Street um and the
fact that it seems to be failing as it as we are and since this is another additional impact that might have um is the commission going to be involved in really looking at the current position and restoring or firming up uh the
current state of our uh road area and marsh area in particular. Thank you. Thank you. Just taking notes. >> Is there anybody else online? Um I don't
see another hand raised. Okay. Um >> question is is the road in our purview? No, >> there is another person, Lindsay. >> Okay, Lindsay, you just came up. Yep. >> Hi, everybody. This is Lindsay Kitridge
and Justin Kitridge at 154 Kevin Lane. I I think I'm not going to be offering we're not going to be offering anything new uh in the concern department here. just, you know, supporting uh the fact that, you know, that enough research and
forthcoming information gets put out towards the neighborhood about that are abuing this this land and this project um in a fair and concise manner knowing uh how seemingly how quickly this kind of came to our attention. Um and the more information that's out there, obviously, the more that you know this
that that we'll feel more comfortable. But I'm not I we Justin and I both share everybody's concerns that are uh put forth here today. So just wanted to jump on board and uh share share that. >> Thank you.
>> There's another hand underneath there. >> Sam >> Sam >> Sam >> Sam. Thank goodness someone has good eyes. >> Oh, good thing Bradford's here. >> Sam, are you there? >> Hi. Hi. >> Top left. >> Hi. I'm the son of uh of Joshua Stain
and Rachel Rosen live on 128 Water Street. Um I was just wondering like since this is a commercial commercial uh commercial goat farm, I assume there'd be um you know uh many more trucks and um coming in to deliver feed and that
kind of thing. >> Sam, that has that's not within our purview. How many trucks go in and out? >> Right. Right. Yes. But what what is in what is in the context of the conservation is that um more trucks and traffic would bring a lot more um oil and given that there's a paved road
there that's impervious surface which which is pretty close to the wetlands. So while the traffic is not within the jurisdiction of the conservation committee the uh oil and pollution directly next to a a wetland marsh would
be. So, I'd be curious about um kind of what the increased traffic and um how what the increased traffic would would um cause as far as you know, oil and um you know, gas uh you know, seeping onto,
you know, pavement that could easily be washed right into >> again I we can't answer that question, nor is it in our purview to to to worry about people I mean >> driving on a public road un hundreds of things that could happen that uh that
could start naming, but you know, doesn't mean it's going to. So, I'm sorry to say >> we do have a standard condition um whenever there's work done on a property that no construction vehicle or regular vehicle can be refueled or washed within 100 ft of a wetland. So, that will be
included as a standard condition like it is on every one of our other permits. >> Awesome. Thanks for clarifying that. >> Thank you. Uh, do you see anybody else there? My eyes. >> No, that's it. >> Not at the moment. >> No. Okay.
Um, anybody else in the audience before I close this off? So, um, no. Anybody else have anything here? Dan, I I wouldn't mind if uh you could look at moving the um the manure because
that seems to be a major issue. The further away you could move it, the better off, I think. Everybody will be happy. So I I would >> They want you to move it into the 100 foot. >> Yeah. There. That's the only location on the property outside the 100 foot buffer. >> Say that again.
>> It's one of the only locations on the property outside the 100 foot buffer. >> This is It isn't right beside Dr. Gable's house, which I don't think he'd appreciate. Um room over there, but that's that's not neighborly. >> I think one question that came up I
think is important. What do you do with the manure during the winter if they're not going to clean it, take it up? >> Yeah, 100%. We'll we'll address that with a with a uh with a little bit more detail on the on the manure management plan and it's, you know, commonly done. Horse farms, truck it away. We'll we'll we'll we'll put some language in there.
>> And um best management practice has been said, but uh I think we need more details on that. >> Yes. >> Fair to say. Um >> can I say one more thing, David? >> Absolutely. If you go to the agenda center and you click the link in the
title, it brings you to all of our public files where all of this information is uploaded immediately once it comes to our inbox. So, it it goes in there as quickly as we get it. Um, it's or it'll be organized as best we could between original material, revised material, but it'll always be online
available to the public. And if you don't want to use your computer, you can come in to the conservation office and view the full-size plans. Um, also Dan, you keep mentioning three times a week and somebody did ask about why three times and how do they arrive
at that. Maybe you could adj uh talk about that. Not now but later, next time. Um, >> my tongue is tied. >> That that'll be a first. Come on. Um, and uh I think that's all I had from my
notes. >> One quick question. >> Absolutely. Um, do we want the best management practices to address uh lawn maintenance or is that >> Can you say it again? I couldn't hear you. >> We want the best management practices to address uh lawn management, the lawn
management of the lawn or is that >> it's the pasture, right? It'll be >> will mainly take care of that. If there's a unused pasture, would probably continue to mow it as it always has been every two weeks and it's irrigated so it doesn't scald and and form a dust bowl.
So, we're going to continue. >> I have one question. Sorry, Paul. >> Just thinking about I think it was mentioned here along the line Taylor Bray Farm and Taylor Brown Farm. Does it operate I I don't expect an answer this right now, but does it operate under a
farm plan? And is it at all relevant to this particular the establishment of this farm plan or farm site? >> It's it's not relevant to this site. No. >> What? >> It's operated by the town. It's not relevant to this project though. >> It's not what >> it's not relevant. >> To what? >> To this project.
>> They're not the same type of farm. >> Why not? >> What? What do you mean? >> I mean, they're both on the marsh. >> There's similar location. >> Yeah. So, there's nothing there's nothing in the in the existence of the trailer Taylor Bray farm that would be
at all pertinent to the establishment or the continuation of a farm on this site. Is that what you're telling me? I >> I don't know the answer to that question, Paul. We'd be happy to look into it if that's easily available. We could incorporate >> Taylor Farm is also a national it's a historic >> place in Yarmouth Taylor Bray Farm.
Nothing about that farm would be relevant to the establishment of a farm in another part of the town. >> I'd say most of the farm especially with the animals I'm going to guess are further than 100 >> maybe. But that's the thing. I just was kind of curious about that because that's the only farm we have on the >> You don't want these people following
Taylor Bray Farm's practices, sir. >> Well, then that's >> that's the way I can say it. You don't want them following their practices. >> All right. Well, maybe that's what I wanted to know. >> Please. >> Absolutely. >> But there is another farm in Yarmouth and it's on Kevin Lane. It's an organic
farm and there's a farm stand on Kevin. >> Yeah. Way up on up near 6A. are >> the one way up on 6A where they have the farm stand. >> It's toward it's toward 6A. >> Yeah. >> Um and to the best of my knowledge there's absolutely
to the best of my knowledge there's absolutely no no concern by any of the neighbors about the practices on that farm. Um, so what you're hearing tonight from from abutters to 88100 uh is in sharp contrast to people who
live near um the organic farm on Kevin. >> Yeah. I didn't know that that was actually a farm. I know he raises nice vegetables. >> Oh yeah. Um >> animals on >> He doesn't have animals but but >> that's why it's not Thank you. I don't want to prolong anything.
>> All right. >> We've got to move ahead here. We've we still have more business to do. So, >> and August 21st >> voted yet >> or later. >> Dan >> D and >> um yeah, 21st. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, if you before you people
leave, we'll probably be rehearing this on the 21st. Okay. They're going to come back with their answers and their new plan if they have parts of the new plan and and uh >> before. So, they have plenty of time to review. >> Right. But we will be meeting on the
21st and you're welcome to go online probably the Thursday before that uh and look at what his new plan is. >> All right, let's get a motion. >> I'll move to continue. >> We need to vote to continue. And uh
Bradford has put the motion. Can I hear a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I continue to the 21st. Thank you. So, if I could ask people to leave quietly so we can move ahead, that would be great. >> Thanks for coming.
>> Oh, wait. >> Yes. >> That's mean low water data. Going from mean low to high is 10, but where I measure from is five. >> Sorry. >> I tried. I should change it next time.
>> This is a datam shift. >> When that one started trying to make money. >> No, that's the wrong question. >> Trying to make present. >> I said when I retired I said I don't go
home feel happy that >> okay we're going to move ahead. >> Um we did the we did the uh COC so we're on the enforcement. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We're on an enforcement of 80 Cranberry Lane
uncitted alteration or vernal pool. vernal pool habitat buffer zone to a vegetative wetland regrading and vegetative removal. And I think we start with Britney. >> I met with the homeowners on site after I received a report of clearing and
grading near um a wetland in Vernal Poolool. Um you can see the vernal pool which has since been certified by the town since it overlaps onto town property. Unfortunately, we did not get around to notifying the homeowners of its presence, although it has been noted on plans to the since the '9s as
standing water. And so, there's this pool in the back of their yard. Um, the area has been regraded for a flat yard lawn and a small wall, rock wall has been put in. This is the edge of the vernal pool. So, the the
rock wall is at the boundary of the vernal pool closest to their house. Um but the majority of the vernal pool itself has not been damaged or um altered just in mostly the buffer zone and this edge that the wall is located
in. So the majority of the vertical pool is fine. Um and the alterations have been made to the buffer zone here. Um here's from their patio. So, it's been completely cleared of vegetation. And from this plan, there
has been a couple of modifications to the house since it's old. But you can see the yard here. This is a photo from when that we submitted with the certification. This stake is actually still in place. This is the property boundary. Um, so we stayed on this side and you can see
there was some large rip wrap size stones that did exist on that side of the vernal pool prior and it did grade up um kind of a significant amount to the end of their yard but it was more vegetated and there were some trees that were removed. Let's see what else.
>> How many trees? >> I don't know. Not sure. have some aerial imagery as well showing some some of the modifications be prior to the this is the patio that that had gone in. Um this is just showing the vernal pool. You can
see clearly in the spring. This is taken in April. So you can see the standing water clearly in that in that image and the vegetation was you know um significant prior. is just another angle of the same area
with the aerial imagery and the vernal pool in the back. And so this the vernal pool on the back of the property that the back portion of the property um also fall into the buffer zone of this wetland over here. So it's not just within the new new vernal poolool
resource area that was established in 2023 under our bylaw um but it's also within a wetland buffer although it is the outer buffer to that wetland. And so with that, I would I would recommend that the board issue an enforcement order requiring restoration of the
disturbed area in what I would imagine is at least a 35 buffer, 5 foot buffer to the vernal pool. Um, but up to discussion from the commission to you, Lynn. Um, thank you. Um, >> you introduce yourself,
>> Lynn Hamlin. I'm sorry. Um then these are the property owners, the Duffies. Um I just want to point out and I think that um they're very horrified to be um having this problem. Number one, they don't like to break rules and they go out of their way not
to break rules and they've also incurred um a lot of expense in doing the work thinking that they weren't within any resource area within a buffer zone. Um, and it's unfortunate that the town did not notify them that vernal pool was
certified last year. It says August 2024 yet, some of it's on town property, but these property owners weren't notified. And even on that plan, that's not labeled for a pool. It's not even labeled open water. It's just a circle. >> This was the most clear plan I could
find um contours, but there was one that was lab labeled standing water. >> Okay. It it's when you have a property I I don't know what was the date of that plan. That's 1998. They have a plan that they did in 2020 that Robin Wilcox did.
Typically property owners don't know a veral pool. They don't know a wetland. It's usually not throwing surveys under the bus. But it's usually people like surveys or myself. If I'm brought to a site, then I identify it. And I went there and um I am expecting to see
things like ferns and rushes and um things that are clearly indicative of wetlands even to a layman and it's they don't have it and it's just trees. There's an oak tree next to a tupelo tree. So it's it's um not obviously
um able to be identified by a lay person. Um I didn't even catch the wetland in the back. they um would like to restore it. They are very stressed out about this. They would like to um put this back. Um we just hope that you
can um work them a little bit to try and um and I think 35 ft's fair. Um if you show that picture from that picture from when you certified the pool, that one there, you can see it's pretty open. Um and though they didn't build a rock
wall, they didn't bring rocks in. That whole area is full of those kind of rocks. and they sort of just pushed them to try to retain that slope. Um, so maybe rather than dismantle the wall, we can break it apart a little bit. Um,
because the rocks were all there. Yeah. See, they just that rock probably is original. The one in the middle. Yeah, I think so. Maybe if we can just push them apart and do some planting. Were you what? Do you aware of trees that came down? >> About six.
>> Six. combination of some trees. By the way, my name is Art Duffy and my wife Tracy. Uh we are, as Lynn said, owners of the property. And um the reason we went and had that work done was because
the abundance of vines and if you had a panning up of a photo, you would see the dangling tendrils of now dead vines. A number of those vines literally choked off some trees. They were dead. Some of those trees had snapped in half. Others
had fallen over and posed the danger, at least the ones that were hanging around and dead or in the dying stages of falling and hitting us, anyone on our property. So that was the initial impetus for us to clear that. And then when we did that, we noticed some
undulating but a somewhat nice area that we thought let's have someone make that undulation clearer or smoother. We moved we didn't uh the person I hired moved some subs soil sand structure from the
front from the sides and down into that area to make that a more smooth look. You see, so the rocks and the subsale came from the property. The loan that you see on some of the property that was imported and brought in just uh two
weeks ago, let's say. So, uh, as Lynn said again, we moved ahead with the knowledge that this was a property which had a low point and, um, didn't have any idea. I have zero experience and
knowledge of wetlands and environmental concerns in that regard. Although I appreciate um the your collective job at keeping these things like our previous applicant and whether they comply or not comply there is a known scenario for
them and you were all aware of that. This was a situation that until Britney came on our property we were completely unaware of. caught somewhat blindsided. And so we're here to see if we can work with you as best we can to make sure
that the thing that we also appreciate maintains its integrity and um and we can move forward from there. >> Thank you. >> I just I'm Tracy Duffy. I just want to say this is pretty horrifying to us and we absolutely never would have touched
anything had we known it had any protection um outside of just being our backyard. >> Okay. >> Um >> and I'm the more emotional one by the way. >> Anybody have any questions? >> Yeah.
>> You know I think these kinds of mistakes are made sometimes. You know, very often people come and say they don't know anything and about this and it's it's it's hard to know. It really is. And um just from your presentation, I hope we could do everything we can to work with
these folks as they requested so that it isn't um so we can kind of get things back to some sort of equilibrium in terms of that vernal pool and all that kind of thing and not um require them to you know do such work that it is
incredibly expensive and all the rest of it. So, I hope we can come up with some sort of a a plan that's um reasonable, you know, and palatable in terms of uh an honest mistake. >> I think maybe going forward, and I know
Britney said this, that if you do certify rental pools, it would be nice to tell the property owners, this one, I guess some of it's on the town property and some of it's on their property. Just just send out a letter. >> Yeah, this is the only one we had certified seven that year. They all of
them came back the same day, August 2024, and none of the other ones are anywhere near private property. So, acknowledged. Apologies. >> I I you know, there are a lot of things in town like that where there are things that exist folks don't know. And, you
know, a little sign just saying, you know, Vernal Pool or something. I mean, there's a lot of places that that do that kind of thing. >> Or even just a letter. >> Yeah. So, anyway, >> I have money for signs. They're coming this fall. DVD. >> So, what is the suggested um rectifying
of this. >> Um I'm open to um some suggestions from Lynn as to what you were thinking because my um I requested restoration of the 35T buffer. Um how would you propose currently to move those rocks?
>> Well, you can get a little that one those machines in there. I just would maybe break them up so there's some areas. >> Is there any way to easily pull them back a little? >> I mean break up the wall format of them. Didn't we talk about that? >> Yes. So, um, as Lynn said, those rocks
were from on the property. Some were some somewhat submerged, some were sitting at top. They got moved down to that point. Uh, they were downhill. There was a combination of a dingo and a somewhat larger bobcat. You saw in the picture there, that particular machine had, the owner
had put the forklift front on it. And as he lifted and moved it, the back of the machine was lifting up in the air. And so they cajolled it, twisted it, rolled it down with gravity downhill. That same machine is not moving those things uphill.
>> The larger ones, the kind of machinery that I expect have to move that would have to come as in that picture to the right of the that wall. It's the side of our house. There is a front section. Um, this house caught fire as I just started
an addition. Discovered in rebuild that the front uh foundation to the house is a 10-in thick wall, which is nice except there's no footing. And then the back part, which is newer, is 8 in wall with
a footing. A large excavator with a grip grippling arm in front which probably would be big enough to grab at least most of those rocks would pretty high percentage do damage to the foundation house. So I have limitations
on what to get back there to be able to move. But I think certainly that vehicle or something close to it wouldn't do damage to the foundation. And as Lynn said suggested, get any and every rock that we can out of there. let that I think um you had said Lynn that vernal
pool should be able to be walked out of exited in any direction. So >> I I I don't think you need to move everybody out of the way. I think you just need to break it up so that the critters have an opportunity to access the um land around it. I I and I think
that maybe pull the grade back a little bit. Um just get some of that fill out of there and then seed it to stabilize it. um do that sooner than later. Maybe with a native mix. Let me know if you're in agreement, Britney. >> Yeah. Can you just say that all again?
Pull them back a little. Break them up. >> I mean, just break that. >> Break the flat wall. That's what I'm concerned. That's flat wall. It's like kind of steep. If we can >> just make openings in it. >> Yeah. Make openings. Lower it or and or regrade a little bit behind it. >> Behind it. >> And so, how deep is this geoteexile
fabric down there? >> Um should be to the bottom of those rocks. and then probably kicks out a little bit. So, as the subsoil came against, it pushes as you can see against those rocks. Everywhere there's a rock, there's fabric, landscape of
fabric behind it. Um, if that has to come out, then it has to come out. Um, it was done obviously with our thought and the gentleman who did the work that we didn't want top soil or subs soil flowing into we knew was a small lower
part of the the yard for two reasons. One, we didn't want to fill. We also didn't want to lose all our dirt going in there. Um, when Britney came over, she also suggested that we put waddles up because the rock wall ends at two points on either side. We did that immediately. We have to also put it in
the front because we have piles of unprotected soil sitting up there. And there was an anticipated raintorm the next day. It didn't really >> it didn't really do >> but the waddles put there too so that we didn't seed the chest I mean cranberry
lane with top soil and subs soil. >> So I think we should get out much of the geo fabric if not all of it. That's important. and then just break up the wall um format just so it's opened and then seed it. I mean pull back as much
fill as we can. Not to make a bigger slope behind it, but just to try to smooth it out and then seed it and stabilize it. And then in the spring, um I like to see the seeding done this fall, which would be I mean you could do it now, but you have to water it. Um and
then do maybe some shrub clusters. I think the trees that he took down um didn't sound viable, but we could put some trees back. Maybe put three trees back. That sounds >> I think I'd be open to um having you come back with a proposal or at least submit a proposal for the I'm sorry. We
usually also don't take public comment during enforcement hearings, but it's up to the chairman whether or not after we're finished he would take because it's different than like an application hearing. Um, >> and since we're resolving this is >> so just you said suggestions. Those are
my suggestions. >> I think it would be great if um you could I I agree with most of what you said. Um I'd like to just see it >> and if we took down six trees, you're saying about half of them were kind of dead. >> Um cracked. There's one small tree if
you you can't catch it there. It's to the right of that photo. It's a relatively small tree. It was indicative of what the trees on the property. That's town property where it is about halfway up it's cracked and it's top is laying over. We had large trees which
wind disease whatever it was the vines have either toppled fully. Uh there was a there was a pine tree that came down in there as well over the years it lost its needles. Uh broken trees some snapped and fell off. So there was a combination of those things. The vines
seem to we have vines that run up the sides of the property and I am cutting them. I have a private hedge on the side of my property. There are vines growing in those things. They are tenacious. From my definition is invasive because it attacks everything. >> A lot of poison ivy.
>> Um >> I'm I'm just confused on what uh if it's relevant is what is the clearing for on the left? What what do you >> He was trying to make lawn. I mean, if you look at the overhead picture um there, see it's got lawn. So they
took out the trees that were the problem and then he just was trying to smooth it out and make a >> a lawn make an recreational area. >> No, we we really wanted to do quite a bit of wild flowers which are just kind of my thing I love. And so that was
originally part of the plan and then we thought the land kind of leveled a little bit better than we thought. So we said maybe we will put some grass and and then put bushes and plants. If you were to drive by our house, we love plantings. We we've put a lot of new
shrubbery and plants in. So, we really our intent was functional and also beautiful. Um was >> But I can get you something. We can like get a seed mix, just get it stabilized, you know, make it less of a barrier for
wildlife. And they're gone now anyway. It's totally dry. >> Yeah. I I think I'd still recommend um issuing at least a draft enforcement order with a 35 ft and then we can just review the plan. Um I'd like to see a plan.
>> Okay. >> Um >> is that something I can um like get an old plan and hand sketch so we don't have to involve the expense of a survey? >> I don't need a survey. >> Okay. >> Um we can find an old plan. >> Is that something she can work directly with you or she have to come back here?
>> We work pretty well together. That's up to you. >> Up to me personally. >> That's up to the commission. >> Commission. >> As long as we don't get that client before us pretty late. >> I mean, if we come back, >> yes, we want to.
>> I knew it was going to be long. Not that long. It >> was one of our longest meetings, >> I would say. So, >> sit through all of that. >> That's all right. >> I'd be okay with Britney approving the plan. >> Okay. >> So, why don't we vote? But I'm also going to um request monitoring.
Okay. >> So, why don't we vote to uh to enforce to okay the enforcement order pending Britney's approval of the plan. >> Can I hear a motion? >> I'll move. >> So, move what you said. >> Second. >> You guys got
>> Paul and all in favor? I >> Okay, we have to sign this right. >> Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.
>> All right. >> All right. The next uh three are certificate of compliance which have no problems from what my leader said. >> So I'm going to read them into the record. Uh SE 832435
Gmaldo Rousidi. >> What? >> 2435. >> 2435. Thank you. 60 Grand View Drive. >> Okay. >> SE83. >> We didn't get a notice either. None of
the neighbors got a notice. >> There's no notice. >> Yeah. So, we had some idea. >> We're all neighbors. So, we didn't get a notice in 2003. >> No, there was no notice sent out. >> No. >> Thank you. SE832459
Alfred Defino 15 Webster Road and SE832229 Robert and Gina McCulla 177 River Street. No issues. I hear a um motion to accept these COC's
>> with the applicable ongoing conditions. >> Yes, I meant to say that because that's in my note here and I forgot to. >> It's okay. >> So moved with applicable ongoing conditions. >> Okay. Uh second and seconded. Okay. All in favor? >> I. >> Okay. Now we get to sign these.
>> Okay. >> So wait, my signatures falling apart. >> One at a time here. >> Oops. >> Who? Here's the number three. While you're signing, I'm going to read
the next one. Continued storm water management permit application for SW2025-1. I hope it's Shabua Engineering Group for Ecatrina and Family LLC. 1272, 1276, and 1282, Route 28. Proposed raise and
replace of gas station with canopy, convenience store, and residential buildings, including new septic. Miss Britney, you have something you want to say? >> Uh, this went through the peer review process. It has hit compliance for all of our storm water conditions. So, I told them they didn't have to come
present since we don't usually have any discussion after the peer review is complete. >> So, it's all set to issue. There a motion to approve this. >> So moved. >> Second. Anybody? >> Second. >> Second. Pat in favor?
>> I. >> Great. Thank you. Um, next is business that we don't normally reasonably anticipated. So, I have one and I'll say it quickly because it is late. Uh the other day when we were in
the car with um looking at at um site visits, I think it was Paul who asked about ponds. Was it you Paul? >> Ponds. >> Pawns. And have we looked at or was it you Jack? >> I think it was me. >> Okay. Jack. Anyway, so coincidentally, I
went to the uh uh advisory council meeting that that afternoon and uh Mark Forest was there and he brought up the idea that as for sewage we need to look at at pawns too and he said there was a study done by um I believe
the um um Artsville County Commission and uh recommended and I agree uh that maybe we invite them to a meeting along along with the advisory council not have a separate meeting but invite them to a meeting. So I spoke to Mark
when was I with you Wednesday and uh said could you know could he arrange for that some in the fall for a 20 minute presentation about about our ponds and what they what they found through the studies and I just want to know your feelings if that's
something you're okay with. >> Sure. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, I probably get in touch with you, Britney. >> When you say ponds, do you mean like settling ponds for >> I'm not sure what you mean by >> um I think it's water quality concerns for our freshwater ponds.
>> Okay. >> Can I ask why the other one was withdrawn? Uh >> yes. um they have been going back with natural heritage a lot and they have not come up with um an agreement and they've
gone back to the drawing board pretty much and >> I interrupt you. I'm sorry. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> So, they they have >> they need to do additional surveying to ensure the species on site to be managed are present and if there are any other species they want to manage that they've
noted them. Um, and part of the ecological restoration limited project has to have them complete the natural heritage process prior to filing the NOI, and we did miss that. So, them going back and forth with natural heritage during our hearing process shouldn't really happen at the
same time. So, they're withdrawing to finish the natural heritage project process and get all of their data to be surely accurate before they come back to us. They are going to come back and refile. >> Happens to us a lot though. It does, but >> but not for an ecological restoration
project. They're supposed to have done it prior. >> You have anything new? >> I don't. I'm sorry I didn't get the minutes out. We'll get both for next time. >> Okay. Anybody else have anything they want to >> How was the party? >> I don't know. I wasn't there.
>> We'll do another in celebration of this long meeting ending. >> I'll go home. >> Appreciate your all your patience tonight. And uh can we have a motion to adjurnn? >> So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Thank you. Let's wait till we get off
the air and then