--------- Okay, good evening. Welcome to the Conservation Commission meeting for Thursday, August 21st, 2025. I'm going to go right into our business. And the first business is Jan Butler for the Yarmouth Seaside Festival Committee
proposed fireworks and pollution control plan for Seaside Festival at Seville Beach. Thank you. Um, well, you called me back here. So, >> you gave us a letter. >> I I've given you the letter. I've given
you um the fireworks um information. I've given you the SDS. Um, and I know what other information you might need. >> Just to summarize, you have um >> 19 volunteers,
>> right? And they're going to do it the next morning. the tides are in our favor. >> Um, and there's a letter from the company who said that um,
they did talk about uh, biodegradable cardboard. >> Yes, >> biodegradable can mean a lot of things. Do you have any idea how long? >> Um, I believe he is going to check in with this Zoom meeting and um, he might be able to answer that better than I. is
the professional, not I. His name Warren Pierce. Who's up there? Warren, do you have an answer to the biodegradable question? >> Sure. Um, the majority of the fireworks, they of course are built in China and so the
paper is not uh really very very strong. So the majority of the debris comes from fireworks. small pieces of paper, you know they're like any other piece of paper and they degrade very quickly. You should we have the show many many years in the row and when we go back each year
we do not find any of the stuff from the year before um we don't find any paper or any residue or any of the things from the prior year. So obviously there's some level of of degradation going in that with that with that material. We
also um know that the plastics is is is an issue. We we're concerned about it too and we've uh instructed our suppliers not to put any more plastic on it than it's needed. And for the shelf for the shelves that we or this year all
the plastic will be removed. So the net result will be the firework itself which has an oxidized in it so it burns completely and the small pieces of paper and some of the husk some of the shells fro shells which again are just cardboard and paper but we also don't
want to pick all those big pieces up and everything. So basically just very small amounts of paper which probably degrades and disappears relatively quickly. Thank you. Anybody in the commission have questions?
Okay. Um I have one other concern. That's the timing of the cleaning since it seems to be high tide on the 13th at 6:35 and low tide at 12:28. So what time do you think we'll be out there? The first
crew will come out between probably closer to 8:00 in the morning. >> The tide's coming out by then. >> Yes. Yes. Um and um we'll have the other members of the cleanup crew come a little bit later. >> Okay. Well, you have something else to say.
>> If I may, um we um I'll be up very early because I have to the fire department and walk through. It's a first life check. It's required by the law and I'll be doing that and I clean up that will be done at that point. So early
there thank you. Um I I think you did a nice amount of work uh attending to a lot of the details that concerned us from the last meeting. Um thank you for doing that. I wondered if um I think it was mentioned in the last meeting that maybe
in the future, whether it be next year, a year after, whatever, you can consider some other type of um ceremony other than fireworks at the end of the um the uh seaside festival. Um I think there are things that can be done with um kind of laser shows and this that and the
other thing that are much more friendly to the environment. So um if you your committee could consider that, it would be appreciated. >> Okay. We certainly will >> look into that. >> I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Yeah, I'd like to second that. Uh I
think that uh there are chemicals that uh for the colors particularly in the fireworks that are really not well uh researched unless your contractor knows about some. >> He he does. And
the chemicals that are up in the sky and give you the color are burnt out. >> Well, they're burnt out, but they leave chemicals. They leave residue and that gets dispersed throughout the air and certainly eventually falls, if not
sooner later, on the the ocean or the land near the ocean. So, I think that uh this is something that as we go along, get older, we realize these impacts are more and more important and that we'd
like to see if there's alternatives maybe. Well, I don't want to put the fireworks onto land because it's got impact on the land, but on the other >> and fireworks
lit off around the world. Yes. And um out of 15 towns, there's 10 of them that do fireworks every year. >> That's right. >> So um >> that's the problem I'm talking about. >> Right. >> And this is for us, I guess. Do we have
any structure for followup on this? Um or just uh is it going to be just by you know word of mouth or something that didn't go well? Yeah, I'm happy to um follow up after D, sorry, DPW does their raking on Tuesday to make sure
everything has been cleaned up as agreed. Thanks. >> Um the only other thing I want to add is next year if you come to us in February, so we don't feel like we're against the >> Exactly. because I felt like I was
against the tide because it's it's really put a a hurt on us as far as planning other things. Um, so yes, I would appreciate that. >> Anybody want to make a motion to uh I will
have conditions on this? >> Um, yeah, just the only thing that wasn't in the plan was that the volunteers would follow up closer to low tide after the higher professionals cleanup. So that covers all of our tides and I'm giving you my word.
>> Second. >> I'll second. >> Second. Okay. All in favor say I. Anybody oppose? Okay. So, >> thank you. So, we can apply for our state permit now. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Yeah. I'll respond with your town
property use form with the conditions we spoke about and approval of your plan. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you, commission very much. >> Okay. Thank you, Warren. >> Okay. Uh, next is uh COC for uh SE832214
LY 27 on this road. >> Oh, thank you. There's nothing to sign for >> yet. Um, we have to How do you want to do
this? Uh, want to have them present the CC. >> The CC. Yeah, go ahead. >> Um, good evening. My name is Dylan Lance with Crawford Land Management. Um, this is Jen Crawford, also Crawford Land Management. um representing Lance and
Pamela Wily for 27 Antiques Roads. Uh we are requesting a certificate of compliance for SE 832214. Permit was approved in January of 2020. It allowed for the rebuilding of the patio, uh widen it a little bit, um
added parking area, uh walkways to the yard and a fence along the top of the coastal bank. Um and then as mitigation for this uh native plantings were added to the landscape beds and where uh there used to be lawn as well. Some was given
up for native plantings. Um and this work has been completed and it's in the general areas that were on the plan. There are some differences. Um the hardscape decreased, the patio is not lined as much as thought and the parking
area is smaller. So there's 238 ft less coverage in that regard. Um, and with the fence being installed on top the coastal bank, uh, I think it might be because of the erosion, uh, which we're hoping to address later this evening, uh, it was installed further back, um,
which cut into the planting area on that side of the property, uh, and more mitigation was added instead in the area around the driveway uh, in West Lawn. Uh we believe that this is still in
substantial compliance and we hope you >> usually read about the CC but want to make statement. >> Yeah, I think the CC is all set. Um forgot to look for ongoing conditions. So looking for any that apply now
with ongoing condition 13 which is just an upper strip of mitigation being maintained and not disturbed in the future but with the left the decrease in heartscape I think the CSC is all set. I have a motion to accept the CC
question. Yeah, just I can barely hear you. I don't know. It's my ears. >> Not really. >> Louder microphone. Okay. >> Well, I'll go ahead and make
>> a motion. Motion second by Pat. All in favor of accepting the CSC. >> Yes. I opposed. Okay. So, we're halfway done. the same. So, it's the same folder. There's two pages. So, just send the top
one down. >> Okay. Yes. >> Um, okay. We're going on to uh SE832495. [Music] I'm sorry if I mispronounced that. 278
on this road. Proposed installation of 50 repair existing patio relocation expansion of existing steps and riverfront area and subject to coastal flooding, coastal bank, coastal beach in the buffer zone of the salt marsh.
Uh good evening again. Um so on this property there is a coastal bank that is steeply sloping and it's starting to be scoured by wave activity. um and that's undermining the stability of the upland area, including a patio with a fire pit
on it. Um to address this, we want to install a fiber roll array um as well as nourishment and plantings on that bank. Um during the installation, the existing steps going down the bank will have to be removed because they are engraved. Uh
so we propose replacing them with a elevated stairway. um and the replacement of some of the patio that is either sloping because of the erosion that we're talking about or maybe damaged while we're installing the um fiber roll.
Um mitigation requirements for any proposed renew replacement hardscape um as the town of Yarmouth wetland regulations 6.02. Uh so we propose mitigation in between the fence and the top of the bank um not on the landboard side of the fence where
ation was previously used for the uh landscape work on the permit that we just talked about. That's it. That's what I have. And if you have any questions for anybody have any questions? [Music]
>> Okay. Um I was not able to see uh this specifically. I was just concerned about the uh not so much the oak safe, but the candle lever cherry to be removed. Uh will that be replaced in
kind or what are we looking at there? >> Um so we proposed three cherries um in one of the mitigation areas. >> Uh yes. Um that was also based on the regulations which I believe called for a caliper inch thing. Um cow per inch
replacement. Uh so estimating that it was about a 7 in cherry. It might be in one of these pictures. It's kind of growing out sideways from the bank. It's pretty much the only like full tree that is unavoidable. >> Yeah, it's also shown on page four of
our land management plan. We have it circled there in red. So, you can see that it's pretty much leveraged all the way out over the beach of the salt. >> No, I'm sorry. [Music] Yeah. um
with the the fiber roll um you're proposing plantings over it, right? >> Um yes. So the nourishment will have beach grass and a couple of other things on top of it. Um I think we have it listed. I can't remember all the species off the top.
Um yeah, American beach grass, spike grass, switch grass, seaside gold dot, and salt metal cord grass are what we would have directly on the nourishment itself. >> Okay. So then I I also saw that you have the some annual nourishment. So I guess I'm wondering how that's going to work
to be adding nourishment if there's plants there. Hopefully you would need nourishment. >> The annual nourishment is really um in that time period before we can get planting fully established. We recognize that um you know not all that sediment
is going to be really held in place by a whole lot. So if we have storm cycles, high tide cycles, something that might remove some of that, then we need the ability to be able to replenish or replant accordingly. So that's really where that that piece of it comes into play.
[Music] Now it's green. Okay, >> now it's green. Okay, >> you stay green. >> Are you finished? I'm sorry. >> I believe so. >> Did I answer your question? >> That was >> okay. >> Thank you. >> I have a question about the kayak rack.
Are you keeping it or are you moving it? >> Uh, we are not proposing any change to it. Yeah, >> I just want to make a comment that it it was a very thorough and um really good site plan showing everything on one
sheet and all the furniture and listings and it's just good to see something like that. It's very good drawing. >> It's all Dylan. >> Seriously. Yeah. >> Anybody else? Anybody in the audience has anything to say about this
particularbody on Zoom? I don't >> know about you. I'm >> sorry. What about you? >> Um I just didn't see I don't know if you had in there um that just the
nourishment you just need to grain analysis before you do the nourishment so we can ensure compatible sand and I can just add that as a special condition. >> Perfect. Um, and then you have monitoring in there. Um, and so annual monitoring as well. We'll usually have that due in November. >> Perfect. That's all. Thank you. And
actually, I have a question for the board. Um, do you um I sometimes you're doing this, sometimes aren't. Are you writing into your orders the allowance for um maintenance of naturalized areas to be an ongoing condition? You are. And the
certificate of compliance is we do. Yes. Perfect. Okay. Great. Thank you. Okay. Anybody written? >> Yes, I'm all set. Uh, anybody in the commission? Can I hear a motion to accept?
>> Second. >> Second. All in favor? >> Opposed? Okay. >> Second is Ellie. >> Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Thank you.
Okay. The next um order of business is SC832494 Kart Engineering for RJ Resorts Bluewater Resort owner 291. >> Did you skipped one? >> Excuse me, sir.
Sorry. Sorry. SC83 242 2482 rider Will Cox McCartney 27 Dris Mill after the fact in patio retaining walls and filled within the flood zone and buffer zone for
assault marsh. You introduce yourself and thank you um David Little from Ryder and Wilcox and Scott Simacowski the the um general contractor for the site. So, we went out to the site just uh a
week and a half ago and updated the site plan to show the existing conditions on the site as Scott has um pretty much restored it as far as the grades are concerned back to its
original uh configuration. The we also provided you with photos of the site so you can see how it um how it looks now. And we on the site plan we have included
proposed mitigation for the entire front yard which will constitute 1580 square ft for the 642 square ft of patio wall and steps that were constructed on
the site. So, we're um well in excess of the 2:1 that's required for here and the as you can see the um our site plan kind of reflects what you Britney is
showing you in the pictures right now. So, I am in receipt of Britney's recommendations and I'll turn it over to comments and questions. Thank you very much. comments or questions couple. Um,
first of all, I want to make sure that your person knows knows there should be no more work allowed until the final approval of the plan. He seems to keep working even though we've asked him not to. So, please let him know. I will convey that to the owner as well as
Scott who is doing the work. >> Okay. Um did you say the grade was lower be below the curb? The lower part of the grade was going to be below the curb there before Scott started the work
there was um cobblestone curbing the wall and he removed that and he built the 3-ft high wall. He removed the wall down to the height of the approximate height of what the cobblestone curbing was. >> Okay. >> So, um,
does that answer your question? >> Well, I just want to make sure that it doesn't go over the >> N. Okay. So, the water on its way down hits the curb, not the road. >> Right. >> Okay. Absolutely. >> Um, a couple of other things. Um
>> yeah, I did just so you know, I sent um David Little the list up here of special conditions so it wasn't going to be overwhelming during the meeting. Um so he has all these but we can go over them. >> You want to go you want me to go over them? You want to go over? >> All right, go ahead.
>> Okay. Um do you say any quantities? Understood. Okay. Um, we want to immediately uh clean up of the property that's within within the 50 ft and should be stored
outside the 50t propert. And um I think we want the patio work in the back to be shown on the plan within the 100 ft. I guess there's work being done in the back of the lot. Is that right? >> Yeah. So since the whole site is within the flood zone, um this will be our plan
of record. You want everything on site to be shown and so that it will be permitted so any work in the future is not confusing. >> Got it. >> And technically Mil Creek is not this portion is not a river in this area. I
don't believe >> that's f that's I you know what Stephanie did a project just south of here. It was >> and it she was told it was riverfront. So I put I I put a riverfront boundary on it from approximate mean high water. So I'll be happy to remove that.
>> I don't it doesn't impact this project. Um but I don't believe that this part of Mil Creek. >> So I'll I I have all the um the listed corrections that you're asking for on the plan. I will remove that. >> Okay. >> I'm happy not to be working in the river
park. Anything else? >> Does the commission have anything else? >> Ask. Anybody else have anything? Anybody in the audience? Yes. >> Good evening. I'm John Patrick. I live
next door at 31 Bristol. Um there are a couple of points of contention that I do have. Um, one, yes, I will agree that there was a cobblestone border, uh, which was not set in cement. Um, we
could go over, pull it out. Um, we and then the, um, 3ft wall was built significantly impacting the distribution of water during high super high tides and and large storms impacting my
property. um increasing the erosion there. Um what's in there now is not that 3 in. It's approximately 6 in above at least. Um,
as you can see from that picture, I had sent um the conservation office pictures in the past of the Google Earth prior to all of this work being done and it will show you the significant difference in the grading.
Sorry, I don't know if I have this in here. I'm sorry, I don't have those up in the file at the moment. That's a little frustrating. Um, however, um, when we did the reconstruction of
the house at 31 West Lane, we came in front of the board multiple times for approval. We were not allowed to put any um boundary edging at the edge between our
property and the street which we were happy to comply with. My feeling is that if we needed to comply with this everybody needs to comply with this otherwise why have regulations? Um,
as such, I know everybody wants to improve their house. We don't have an objection to that, but it should not have an impact, a negative impact on our property right next door. >> You to the left or the right?
>> We are to the left. We are closest to the marsh. >> Thank you. Get a picture. >> Yep. >> Question. Good. I mean the picture you just showed uh what
is that existing or is that that slope but the picture that was on the screen from the street >> originally a completely different slope than what was there prior to any of this work being done. So, are you
resubmitting this plan? Uh, because I don't think that slope is indicated correctly and and I'd like to see a section through it. It's a significant slope and and I don't believe it's shown adequately on this plan. I
see the two contour lines which indicate a foot difference and I I believe that is more than a foot. So there's a 4 foot there's a 4ft contour >> where
>> you know you may be correct. So there's a 4ft contour immediately on the street side of the granite curbing. You see that in the sixoot and then there's a 6ft contour and then there is an 8ft contour
um up by the patio. I can I can make that clear on the revised plan. I think >> there was there was a smaller patio up up by the house. This is obviously larger um and and we're and we're proposing to
to mitigate for the larger patio, but I don't with respect to um [Music] >> well the planning plan will address any runoff from our site from storm water
but with respect to the um land subject to coastal storm flowage. I don't think that the the curbing that we have there will cause any more reflective wave energy than the cobblestone curbing that was there originally.
And it's it's just that the you're not living there. You said what? >> He's not living there and doesn't see the daily effects of that. Like last night's weather coming in with the high tide coming in and being over not going
up onto Mr. McCartney's property but coming down onto ours. >> I know you go ahead. >> Yeah, I just have a couple of questions. Um so this is this is unpermitted work in aggregate building and the contour of
the front yard the the slope of the front yard was changed uh let's say within that unpermitted uh effort right okay so that was changed and also the the cobblestone edging was taken out a wall was built now the wall
was taken down with the exception of the first course of brick so I wonder why and it seems to be if the the Butter is is saying that those changes which again
were uncitted have adversely impacted his property. Therefore, I'm trying to understand why I wouldn't um say that it seems that this should
revert back to the original contour and the original curving. so that these types of things uh could theoretically be rectified. So that could be done. It would be going from a 6-in granite curve to a 4 in
cobblestone curve. >> It would require a significant amount of work. But if that's what the commission requires, >> well, it's not what the commission I'm just saying what I I see, you know, my own personal um contribution. I I I
don't know really. Maybe I need help with this. I don't know what the 2-in difference is contributing to in terms of what the gentleman is saying uh as far as um uh difficulties with his with the flowage and so on so forth in his property. I'm not sure I understand why
that it seems to me that more of the grading would contribute to some sort of a difficulty. >> Well, as you can you can see his car parked in this. That's his car. >> Yeah. >> So that grade matches the existing grade on his driveway. >> Yeah. So, we're not if the water comes
up, we're not creating um a we're not creating a new adverse impact to his to his property. And if if the commission feels that 2 in of curbing um is going to be is going to cause a
significant reflected wave energy from land, so be it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem. Is the problem that with the with the wave energy or with the runoff off of the off of debris? >> I think the problem is with the neighbors.
>> Yeah, we can't we can't do so much about we're not going to discuss that. >> Excuse me. I'm not going to debate with the neighbor. I understand. >> I understand where you're coming from. Yes. >> Yes. Please do. construction.
How long? >> This was August. You can see where the Oops. Sorry about that. You can see how the grade is consistent. It is not qualified. >> Well, on a
Yeah, I I hope I made myself clear. I mean, I'm not saying I understand um you know, again, the curbing whether that's the the culprit here in terms of the what the gentleman is saying or the the grading. Um it seems
like there is some problem and it would have to be made clear whether it's because of this project or because of something else. >> Well, there's always been a problem. Um, and the the grade on his property was was raised up significantly when he came
before you to construct the new dwelling to match our grade. >> Mhm. >> All right. >> I have one last question very quickly. In the picture, I I have a picture here. It looks like is that a
temporary erosion control measure at the foot of the stairs? The >> Yes, it is. What what is the what's the permanent detail there that would be? >> Can I look at which picture? >> It's up. I have it up. >> That's fine. >> Yeah, that's different.
>> Yeah, those are >> little pieces of fiber rolls, >> right? >> It were just there temporarily. >> So, permanently what what it would be cobblestone >> cobblestone. Thank you. Um I'm also not sure the how much of an
impact 2 in on the the curb is going to have for flooding in general. Um just looking at this picture though, it doesn't seem to be you mentioned earlier that it was it's at grade with the neighbor's property.
It doesn't seem to be at grade. So, I'm going to echo um Ellie's comment earlier of seeing some sort of cross-section um so we can better understand what that >> that's the common property line right there. >> Yeah,
it it still seems like it's at a higher >> Yeah. Can we eliminate the rest of the timber wall >> and meet the grade on the front? not to have this hump, but to smoothly grade at an elevation lower than the curving.
So, eliminate some of that grade at the front. >> You can pull out the entire timber wall. >> Yeah, the entire timber wall and lower the grade. Um I I think just based on Britney, you said you had provided some
comments for um a plan. I think I would want to see that approved plan before. >> Yeah. So what I um provided was that we needed on this plan we needed to see a mitigation table showing the ratios and how we need it.
Label of the butters show the grades on the patio and the front curb. um graphically showing the patio in the back as well and including plant quantities. It doesn't affect the permitting much, but there since it is a dead end street um
the buffer zone to the marsh might curve upward on this side um on the south side. So there's marsh across the street, but there's also marsh at the dead end over here. So it may change the buffer lines a little bit. Um and then the special conditions we do
need this is insufficient erosion control. As you can see the loose sediment is going into the roadway. So we need the sediment to be cleaned up immediately and sufficient erosion control installed. Uh general construction equipment needs to be stored outside of the 50ft buffer and
anything with an engine needs to be stored outside the 100 with no refueling within the 100. And the full seeding and planting should be completed this fall as to reach stability since we have exposed sediment and annual monitoring reports for the
mitigation plantings. That's what I sent over that is I Brad I've heard that's a lot of things. Um so we probably just need to see a revised plan once more in a hearing before approval. >> That's fine. So um in what I've done in
other situations like I would seed the little goose then do a bio biodegradable mat >> then plant >> within that mat >> perfect that's satisfactory >> okay
>> yeah um I presume you had the owner had discussions with a neighbor this and they discussed what's good or bad about one of them is shaking his head. Um I would think that before you come back
there should be discussion with your neighbor and his understanding of what's being done proposed by you so that we are not here to resolve the issue between the two neighbors. We're going to follow the rules.
I don't think that uh I would like to see a disagreement next time. I all I can do is No, I understand. And >> mention it to the owner. >> Yep. And I will do that, Mr. Frost.
>> Yeah. Last last on your project narrative, you may want to visit the last sentence. It isn't it isn't really a good sentence where you say the grade of the front yard was returned to the original configuration and then you put in parentheses more or less
>> just trying to be honest but um yeah I hear you get it back. So yeahbody else I have to be honest I have a hard time with the curbing I'd like to see the curbing removed. I like to see the neighbors on both sides do not have
curbing. Um, and I have to believe the water has to go somewhere if it's hitting the curbing. I'm going to guess it's going to the neighbor. So, my personal preference is just to have the cur the curbing. When I was there, I that's the first thing I thought of. So,
that's my opinion. >> Well, could we restore it to the cobblestone curbing that originally existed? >> We have pictures of that. Um, >> yeah, sort of. You can see that there is a granite curb here, but we don't have any photos, I'm sure.
>> How high was the original cobblestone? >> They're not the regular. >> I have some at the should that have been originally permitted to put in. >> I'm sorry. Um, public comment is only available when the chairman requests Apologize.
Um I'm sorry. Can you say it again? I have some original ones that can match those original ones. How they 3 in. Is that what you're saying? >> No, they're more like a 4 in. So I can bring one in and show. >> You can just let us know the difference
in in height. >> Okay. So it's not that much difference in height. Is that >> okay? I actually I think there was some pictures >> the first >> with the cobblestone next to that. I can provide you a picture picture
picture cobblestone right in front of the existing herb that exists so you can see the difference. Well, I understand it was cobblestone earlier. Uh since we're redoing the whole yard, I'm still like to see no
cobble. No up in there except for what's in the both sides of uh both houses. You see further down there it's right to the street and I'm sure the left it is too explore that >> you prefer vegetation right to the
street. >> Yeah, I would. That's I'm just talking for myself, not to the commission. >> I would I we would talk to the owner. >> Okay. Thank you. So, we're going to vote to um continue
this. Okay. Would you would you like if we're continuing, would you like two weeks, which means you have to have the plan to us in one week or more time? >> I'd like more I'd like four four weeks if I could, please. >> Okay. And that's September 18th.
>> Excuse me. >> September 18th. Okay. Ask again anybody else in the audience. Anybody on Zoom? I appreciate your comments. >> I appreciate the opportunity.
>> Okay. Thank you. A motion to continue, Jack. Second. >> Second. All >> in favor of continue to September 18. >> Yes. I >> Okay, great. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you.
>> This is my copy. still in the bucket. >> This doesn't get signed. >> That's correct. >> Okay. Okay. The next order of business is SE83
[Music] 494 KCO Engineering for RJ Resorts Blue Water Resort LLC 291 [Music] 832493 JM O'Reilly and Associates for Irene
Holmes. One parsonage point proposed above grade stairs in the buffer zone to a border bordering vegetative wetland and natural heritage habitat. And I believe we got everything in. >> Yes. Natural Heritage issued their
comment letter and had no notes and gave a note takeake. >> Okay. They'll still need a variance from ZBA, but um >> we found that out today. Yes. >> So did I. I tried to tell you as soon as I could. >> It's all right. Appreciate the heads up.
Court of Appeals. >> Um, do we need I I don't know. Do you have anything to add? >> No, I don't. We were waiting for the natural heritage. I think the commission was pretty much satisfied with their review at that point. So, >> um, if I was just, um, wondering if you
could do a revised plan to just fix the the 50oot buffer line. You did >> asked me to do that. >> That's all. Um, but I'm all set with the project as proposed. I'll get you that revised plan tomorrow. >> Just one copy is fine.
>> Okay. Uh, anybody have a comment here from the commission questions? Anybody in the audience? Britney, >> I'm all set. Thanks. >> And anybody on Zoom? I don't see anybody. Okay. Uh, can I
hear a motion to um accept plans? >> Paul. Second, Jack. All in favor? >> I. >> Anybody opposed? Okay. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you >> everybody. >> Thanks Irene. [Applause]
>> Me one minute to organize myself. Okay, on that page. Okay, we're at SE 832492 down Cape Engineering for Natasha and Oliver Bmpst 88 and 100 mil lane.
proposal to establish a farm with fencing in the river front area and subject to coastal storm flowage and buffer zones to a coastal bank salt marsh and bordering vegetated wetland. Um and if we could focus just on
questions from last week and we don't need to hear everything over again. >> Sounds good. I'll try and be brief. Um, for the record, Dan Ogel, I'm a surveyor and civil engineer with Down Cape Engineering Yarmouth Port. Uh, with me is Leo Kakunus, who is a a farmer,
well-known farmer on the Cape and familiar with the agricultural right to farm regulations and and so forth. If there are any questions of him um so um I I think um we went over with some detail uh the plans um since the last
meeting. Um uh we had some revisions to make to the plans. So, I'll concentrate on those. I think they are uh mainly uh responsive to your requests. Uh you know, we've got the um a few different resources here. There's the wet wetlands
which are delineated. Um and um also there's a technical dry resource area which is a coastal bank which occurs at a flood zone. Um I would like to stress that that coastal bank is is the middle of a pasture. It's barely more than 10%
grade. It doesn't look like a coastal bank. It doesn't act like a coastal bank. It would be more like a a less than 10% where you've got a slope where the flood waters will come up and just recede again, you know, once in a 100redyear event. Um coastal banks, of course, you're very concerned if there's
sediment sources. If you armor them, they can starve a downgradient beach. There's none of that here. This is adjacent to vegetated wetland. It's super stable. It's been cleared uh since before the turn of the century and it's uh been maintained in this pastural setting just as it is uh in excess of
what is it 35 years or so now. So um it's it's a technical resource area yes but uh is it particularly sensitive? I would argue uh not really. Um we've submitted um a revised farm plan which we think is responsive. there's
some at the very end some questions uh answered uh to the best of our ability. Um I did speak with the uh the new um health director uh Barry Lewis and um informed him, you know, that as we put in our in our narrative, we'll be filing
with them um for the stable permits and so forth afterwards. And uh he knew all about the hearing. He was interested in how it would go tonight. And um he said his focus would of course be on the manure management, compost management um and um and so forth. And so I told him
that yeah, you know, we we've uh of course concentrate on that. We're using the best management practices uh that are available from the the Mass Department of Environmental Protection, the Food and Agricultural, uh the UMass Extension Service, the USDA, uh NRCS,
and uh and the and the EPA. And all of those uh items are are covered. Uh there's a table that how Good Hope Farm is complying. Again, these are sophisticated farmers. They've been doing this for years in New York and um >> I'm going to interrupt you. I just
really want >> and we already know the history of their been in New York and all that. Can we just focus on the changes? >> Yeah. So um what we did um was uh we noted that there would be um we moved the composting area that I was just
discussing um a little bit closer to the barn. Um it's set on an angle so that the water will run to the north away from uh the shellfish area which is to the southwest. And um uh what we'll do is um um subject to a revised plan or
condition. I'll show a little driveway to that and we're going to pitch it so that it it angles more towards uh the east than the west. Um, that is important because right now it could technically get down the driveway and and flow to the west where there is a small pond and and and a little ditch
that uh was dry today, but you know during and even after the inch of rain or so we had last night, but uh during a larger event could carry um sediments under the uh under Mil Lane and towards the um the shellfish area. So, it's very important to us uh as good citizens and
probably to this commission and certainly the board of health who looks to the manure management that all that uh is kept away from that area. So, um we'll ensure that that's the case. Again, it's a covered roof. We're happy to put a condition gutters and downspouts to a drywall on that. I think that was a suggestion of one of the
neighbors and it's a good suggestion. So, we'll comply with that. And um we have um on on Britney's um request worked up a sketch for um a koer log and a burm swale detail. So I'll just hand these out. Um it's just a little
addendum sketch. I think a picture is just sometimes helpful. So I'll hand these out. >> Where where is that located? >> In his hand. We haven't had it yet. He brought it with him tonight in response to questions I submitted
this week to help him prepare for the hearing. And is this for erosion control? Is this temporary? >> Yeah. So I just was waiting to speak into the
mic. >> Yes, I understand. Sorry. >> Yeah. What we'd intend to do with this is um um all along where you've got the green fence uh which is down gradient of the main pasture um put this everywhere and
a lot of you know there's some places that have 20 foot buffers some have 10 some have you know less. So we but regardless we thought as a good compromise to either a larger buffer or or or or that sort of thing we'd create this and it would be permanent. It's a
highdensity quarter log um and it's half buried and then we're going to put lom and seed and mound up over it. So you'll get instant protection from a quarter log. It's it's semi-pervious, so it'll allow some some waters to move through, but it generally traps in at least a
6-in high swale all along there uh any runoff from the pasture lands. And again, we're doing all the BMPs. We're moving the the food stations, you know, as far from the fence and um you know, maintaining a healthy healthy healthy uh pasture land. But um we feel that this
burm and swale will uh assist in infiltration and uptake of nutrients prior to entering the buffer. So we'd offer to do that everywhere down gradient of that fence on the whole east side there and even against the salt marsh on the
north side. Um, with respect to the Rivers Act, um, that was a question that was recently posed, I think yesterday or today. Um, there's small drainage ditches and intermittent streams on locust. They do not rise to the levels of, uh, rivers under the act.
The small farm pond is mostly dry right now. The ditch only has a few spots of water in it. No flow even after last night's heavy rain. There's uh simply no way this short drainage ditch could be considered a river under the act. None of the ditches are mapped as blue lines on the USGS quad maps. That means
they're perennial streams. That's generally then the burden of proof on is on us to prove that they're not uh rivers. But here uh we do not have that burden of proof and they all have just very limited drainage areas. I inspected the culvert today was nice and clean. Um
the upstream end was was open. downstream on Water Street had a natural siltation line of about 50%. Uh but uh we were able to hear noise through it as clean as a whistle. Uh we can maintain that uh anytime that is requested.
Um and um again uh the focus of the board of health uh will be on manure management. We can go in with more specivity on that, but I I think you've heard our pitch on that. Um, and I don't want to belabor any of these points. Um,
again, there was a couple letters of support. You know, some of the poor neighbors had been uh they they, you know, somewhat uh nervous about saying anything because of the the uh crowd mentality, but uh that's unfortunate, but this will be a great farm. It has been a great farm. Um, we feel that with
the measures shown, the BMPs, it'll continue to be a historic looking and and gorgeous property, well-maintained, no smells, no odors. the owners live there. They're not uh interested in having any nuisances and uh care more about the environment than than than
most people. So, I'll leave it at that and uh Leo can answer questions if you have them on the act and the right to farm. Uh and uh we'll be looking forward to a positive review and move on to the health department for their their review. Thank you. >> Anybody on the commission have questions
or comments? I just have a a general question. Um, >> yeah, I can be good. >> Um, I just have a general question. Um, you know, it's funny because when I went to school, there was this one book
called Design with Nature by Ian Mccar. And how there's always this this um we want to get back to the original state of what this property was. And I just want to know in your professional opinion um it was a farm before and it and and I
don't want to put words in your mouth but it looks like you tried to do minimal impact to what it was before. You tried to work with that. Am I correct in saying that? >> I think that's 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Just about 100% accurate. Uh there
was a a very professional wetland science scientist that did the original analysis and and laid out the pastures and maintained the original clearing line. The photographs go back to the 30s. This is all cleared farmland and uh in the 80s they found it proper to put the fences right where they are today.
Uh from 2012, you know, this I think I had held up before is the beautiful farm property exactly as it is today and exactly as we want to maintain it. The only differences will be very subtle BMPPS tipping the grade here and there and shifting it um so that we don't
impact >> water management back. So >> well not not as much but again this is an agricultural use and it's pretty there's not very many impervious areas. We're fine to have all gravel driveways if you want to make that a condition. Um, uh, Leo had mentioned and just
wanted to pop in there that, uh, in his his professional opinion, uh, leaving that, uh, kind of a it's it's on a it's a private well. The irrigation system doesn't draw from the town water, but just to maintain that, uh, the the the buffers even right up to the fence is pretty important because if you get a
big drought like it is now, well, could you just say a word or two to that, Leo? >> Um, it it was a question on whether we should maintain the >> I'd like you to keep it short, Leo, if you >> very short. uh don't don't mandate that the sprinkler system be removed is completely against not only best
management practices but any common sense. The whole idea of having a really nice healthy pasture, green grass, nice thick grass, is because that is going to absorb a lot of the nitri and it's going to also prevent runoff and it's going to
prevent heavy commission talk about getting >> well it was in it was in one of the correspondents the the discussion about removing the sprinkler system from the pasture and I just want to draw your attention to all over the Cape. We had a very very dry summer. I even have the situation on my farm where I have areas
now that are that are just dust because the grass has died. You don't want that. So, I I would caution you if you're thinking of that. >> I'm I'm sorry. Do you say are you saying that you you advocate for the use of the irrigation and sprinkling system?
>> Absolutely. >> Okay. Dan made a comment about how it doesn't that the water doesn't come from the town um supply, but it does, doesn't it? Doesn't it all come from the same aquifer? >> No. >> Well, to to to just to clarify on that point through the chair, um it's an
irrigation well that's on the property that draws. Um that is a separate aquifer from the zone twos. Is it the same general groundwater? Yes. So, I mean, we're kind of semantics here, but we're not taxing the town's water system. It's only uh drawing from the the site.
>> Yeah. I guess it's just because it's a kind of sensitive issue right now, you know, because I know that if you have a um a private well, you you can irrigate your lawn, but if you don't, there are restrictions. So, I I wondered how that applied to this particular situation. >> That's an excellent point. And in
periods of drought, having an on-site well is very important, and it's a big aquifer, and uh there's plenty of capacity here. We've never had a problem. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Anybody else in the commission? um >> like you want to
>> Well, I commend your coming up with your more detailed uh farm plan. I think that uh I'd like to see as you add more specifics about uh the rotations of and
uh application of chemicals or the irrigation systems are using. would like to know what that is so that we understand the impact on the erosion and and the way the uh chemicals go off the farm.
Uh so that's my number one is we could go down the current things that you have here discuss them but I think there's not enough detail to really discuss them like the irrigation or other kind of thing. So
if uh that falls Britney under our to request the farm plan changes and more detail over the years is we can do that. >> You want more detail from the plan that they provided last week.
>> Well, not necessarily right now because they probably won't have the answers >> updates. >> Yeah. Well, I think we'd be happy to provide >> answers. I'm talking about each best management practice and how you're going to apply it, the specifics of the
schedules, the uh kind of chemicals you're using. I don't think you have those kind of things and I'd like to see as you develop those farm plan that it >> um >> yeah it I mean there's general statements they're they're very low uh
pesticide or or or or use and the fertilizers we try and just use the carefully composted organic >> and that's fine. I'm just asking that uh as you bring on your goats which are you're proposing 30 now
and you I guess are you thinking of going back up to your 40 or do you know what your top level would be? These are the questions that I would like to see as they change and uh get answers to those. So you're talking kind of like
>> So you're kind of requesting >> just a >> an update or >> updates in more detail as you go along. That's what I'm asking for. >> So you you'd be requesting a special condition for annual updates on farm management.
>> I'm not saying annual. I think that um that would be up to your professional what what you think is enough to really be able to say here's what I'm doing with rotations. for instance, the type of fencing. Are you moving fences? It looks like you're not um so forth and so
on about each of the practices. >> I I think a condition that we update the commission with significant farm changes as they occur would be would be fine. Um if you want to put every two years or significant change, I think that would be fine, too. Um Natasha is a good
notetaker, so I don't think that would be overly burdensome. Mr. Chair, um, >> wait a minute, Jack, you have something else? >> Yeah, you have a list of compliance and filings. Uh, for instance, farm stands
and events and things like that. Um, I don't think we can, this is our out of our purview, but for instance, archaeological sites and uh, if you find anything like that, you that should be a
part of that list. uh road use traffic. I'd like to somebody in the town is going to want to know how many trucks and in Barnstable I may add because you're going to go over in Barnstable County. So, I see that this is a big issue that you should put on your list
there that uh what do you when you run into a problem, increase traffic, you're going to go to the appropriate people to uh in town both towns to get changes to permits or whatever it takes.
>> You are right. That's outside our purview, Jack. >> I'm sorry. >> You're right. That's outside our purview. >> No, I know. but it's in the farm plan and you've listed it and so I'd like to see that list a little bigger that's all that you are aware of those.
>> Yeah, we we'll comply with all all regulations pertinent to a farm use commercial farm that you list at least those I've mentioned if not more. >> Well, um >> I'm not sure they need to list them. want to >> check. I'm not I'm not sure we we have
the right to ask them to do things that aren't in our purview, >> right? >> Yeah. >> But while we were on fertilizer, um I was just still unclear in the current submission. Are you proposing to use the compost on the pasture or only in the
raised beds? >> Um would we use a little bit on the pasture as well? the nice compost >> if we felt it was helpful to maintain the posture but not as a practice regularly you know if there's a >> uh you should probably speak in the mic
Natasha for the record >> and say who you are >> so mostly for >> Hi everybody Natasha Brmps I have no current intention of doing that but if there is for example an area that we want to add nutrients to in a small
amount we might do that rather than using >> synthetic nutrients if you know what I I mean, but no, that's not the intention. It would be in the flower growing area and excess would be >> taken off the property. >> And in your farm plan, you said that um you'd be testing the soil every 3 years.
And is that in the pasture as well or just in the flower? >> That is that is in advance of Yes. Anywhere that we would be adding it, we would be doing that to make sure it was necessary >> needed. Yes. >> Thank you. Let's wait to close the door so we can hear
you. >> Okay, go ahead. >> Just had a question through you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Frost mentioned chemicals and the addition of chemicals. I hope I want to clarify this irrigation system is not a chemagation system. I mean I'm not sure if that's where he was
headed with that. I just want to clarify it because on my farm I have an irrigation system that I inject my pesticides, my fertilizers, my herbicides through that system. This is not that case at all. This is just a conventional homeowner, if you will,
style irrigation system. And from what my understanding is though, they're going to upgrade the system so that it has a water sensitive um uh reaction on it. It's kind of like one of the houses I take care of where, you know, certainly dry it. Yeah. It'll it'll come
on. If it's raining out, it it won't come on. That kind of thing. But but it's not a chemagation system. I just wanted to make that clear. >> Yeah, that's important. >> When it's not triggered, is that set to set up to water every day? >> No. So, just whenever Anybody
else in the commission? >> Yeah, I I just a final comment from me. I think that um the applicant has gone through all of the concerns and has presented a nice farm plan. And I think
that thinking about what uh Jack has said here, um we're all subject to um questions with all of our property if we do something that's um tends to or
looks to be um problematic. And so that would apply also to this property and all of our properties. So I think that it seems as far as I'm concerned all the eyes are dotted and tees are crossed in terms of the establishment of this
enterprise in in that location and I wish them everybody a lot of luck with it and certainly if there's a concern it will be discussed at the appropriate level in the future. So,
thank you for bringing this to us and thank you for doing all the work that would um result in the establishment the reestablishment of a very nice um farm. >> We appreciate those words and uh you you'll be well served by these people. I
I'm sure of it. >> Go ahead. >> I just want to echo that. The best management practices matrix that you did was was excellent. I I don't know um what else you could have could have done. all of the resources and references and um and then I think you know it's good to keep in mind that this
this project you will go in front of um preservation for the fence and all that. I mean there's different reviews that will happen that are out of our purview and and so it's a comprehensive review but from a conservation standpoint it's it's just a very very exciting project.
>> Okay. I just want to say that I appreciate you moving the uh manure composting area and turning it. I think that's that's that was one of the concerns. I have a few others that uh I want to bring up. Um according to NRCS,
there should be a 15oot buffer between the between the um wetlands and the fence. And uh but uh now that you've presented this log burm swale detail, I think I have to sit with Britney and
understand whether that >> your own opinion statement >> whether that takes the place of of that of the 50 15 foot buffer. Um unless you have a comment now on it. I don't want to put pressure on you, but >> I I'd prefer more time to review
something received the same day. Um >> okay >> but definitely it was noted that you're following these list of BMPPS but one of them is maintaining a healthy vegetated buffer and the minimum distance cited in one of those was that it would have to be 15 ft and and the vegetated buffer
that exists is between 2 feet and 10 ft around um which doesn't meet it in most locations and with a you know mildly conservative bumpout with some mild planting and allowance for some some native pasture grasses to be matured
instead of mowed. I think a buffer could get could go a long way for water quality. Um, and for comfort, having this pasture so close to the wetland with just a small vegetative buffer. I do I appreciate you thinking of the storm water with the burm and swale.
They could work together. I don't know if one takes the place of the other. Um, but both are appreciated and both were listed in the BMPs. >> Also want Are you done? Go ahead. >> Okay. Um, let's see. Sorry, I read all the
letters. Um, especially the ones that were written between last meeting and this meeting. Um, and I do have a couple questions or comments about that. Um, number one is why manure only every three days? Does irrigating affect the
impact of the water runoff? So, um, that's a question I have. I don't know if you have an answer for that or you want to >> What was the question, sir? I'm sorry I didn't hear you. >> Why the manure uh re um picking up the manure every only three days? Does
irrigating affect the impact of the water runoff? In other words, you have you have stuff down there and then you're you're irrigating. What's is it >> you want to answer it now? You want the answers right? >> Well, I I'll I'll take a crack at it.
What what I would say is that when we irrigate these fields, we don't irrigate them enough to create runoff. It's just a, you know, a quarter inch at a time. Just a, you know, a gentle but steady um setting in. Uh if you have a down burst from a thunderstorm, that would be something which you'd expect to see a
little bit of sheet flow even off a turf lawn. But um the irrigation system simply doesn't generate that sort of volume that would would would carry in significant amounts. Uh and then um you know these are these are small pelleted uh and and we're keeping them up on the feed stations will hug the uh the
upgradient side. They usually you know poop where they eat uh away from the fence and uh between those two things and cleaning them up every few days. U the donkeys uh create just a little bit more but you know again they're because they're a little bit heavier and they have more of a horse type manure than
the pellets. But uh again those are are easy cleanup and um and we'll tend to them as needed. Again, these folks live here. They drive by every day. They don't want smells. They don't want odors. They don't want uh and so that's our guess as to a reasonable amount, but we'll certainly fine-tune it as needed.
But, uh I wouldn't think that we'd get significant runoff from just a light irrigation on a healthy turf lawn with a small pelletized uh manure. >> Okay. Um let's see. um the vehicle access to the shed itself will is how if
they want to move the manure that's >> Yeah, we'll create a little driveway up to that shed uh that come peels off the existing barn driveway and and tips the grade and and sheets it uh to the east where we've got a pretty significant buffer and um you know depending on on how it works out. I I did notice Lynn
Hamlin is a very accomplished wetland scientist. she did the delineation prior to the recent one and she was a little bit more um uh gave us a little bit more generous a buffer. So when I was looking at my colored sheet from 2012 um you know um I think Paul pulled it in a
little bit uh in some places that he could have perhaps um shown a little bit more of a vegetated buffer. But um I don't know where I'm going with that except that uh you know we'll we'll we'll take a careful look at it and and work with Britney on a on a uh exact buffer uh thickness. But I think with
the burm uh 10 ft it'd be absolutely plenty. Um maybe um we could leave it as is, but we'll certainly discuss it. >> All right. Um also, um I don't know what the proposed farm stands going to look like, but if there's any new buildings
proposed within our jurisdiction, you obviously have to come back to us, >> of course. Yeah. >> No Vista pruning. >> That's accurate. without permission, uh, no vista pruning. Okay. >> And, uh, you've already answered my other question about the compost being mostly used in the flower and veggie
gardens. And, uh, >> that's accurate. >> Um, let me just make sure nothing else here. Um I am wondering if if if in the weather forecast like there's I know surprise thunderstorms nobody can that's
why they're called surprise but if we know there's a big storm coming whether they should pick up the nor before that storm even within the three days is that can we put that in as a condition? You could act push it in as a conditioner, but I will just tell you in reality and
as being a 35 year or 40 year farmer here, it's a lot easier to pick up freshly dropped hard pelleted manure than it is manure or freshly dropped manure that has been rained on and it becomes wet and clumpy. So, I even want to say that about the sprinkler system.
It's not going to be running daily. You had mentioned that we said we'd probably be picking up the manure every 3 days. I'm sure it's going to be coordinated with the time that the sprinklers go off. The sprinklers do not run during the day because the animals do not like getting wet from the sprinklers. So,
they'll either run early morning or or late afternoon. And that's going to give the owner time to go out and pick up the manure when they know that the sprinklers are running every Thursday, say, or every a third day, something like that. So, I think it's very very easily managed. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. And they >> Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I I I say and and and fully customizable to uh that if it's we have a wet spring, they wouldn't be going off at all. But uh you know, if in a drought like this, you know, you're probably looking at every third day for sure. Okay. So, the only thing
outstanding for me is the 15oot buffer versus whether the burm swell takes the place of that or whether we can move the buffer back. But that's something Britney and >> it's not up to me, David. I I would >> I mean something we'll talk about. Yeah, I would encourage the applicant to
consider whatever you're willing to propose and I think a buffer would go a long way in combination with the swale depending on how much pasture you're willing to plant. Um, so I think a buffer would be greatly appreciated to be added where especially where it's zero or two feet to expand it in some
fashion to create some sort of buffer where none or very small one exists. Um, and so we would I'm sure the commission would appreciate a buffer with the swale if it's really small or just a buffer. I'm not sure if they would. >> Yeah. So, >> um, could we compromise on an 8oot
reveated buffer where less than 10 and then you'll have more than 10 almost everywhere except then you'll have some eight-footers. Would that be reasonable to this? I mean, just to just to put a number on it, I think we could make that work >> on all around 8 feet. Yeah, I would say
on the on the wetland side, on the salt marsh side, um I think it's already 10. So, you know, that's that's all set out there. I don't think we'd be doing anything out there. Um but against that wetland where it isn't uh uh 8t currently would make it 8t and uh would
also install the uh the burm. >> Sounds great. >> Mr. Chairman, may I also add to that thought, train of thought also? I think one of the first things I said when I came up to the mic uh two weeks ago or last week when we were here um that I've been encouraging and I certainly hope that the town of Yarmouth will encourage
to work with the applicant on doing something with that uh freshwater wetland if you will where the Belgians had the trails going through there and had it quite maintained at some point and now with the current um towns really
across the Cape looking at going in there and doing reclaim aiming of those type of areas to create the right kind of buffer. My little bit of a concern is when we we just designate a 15- ft planted buffer in 5 years from now that
becomes an area for uh invasive species, things we really don't want. And it becomes I'm a big one for property needs to be managed. the concept of letting nature take its course is I'm sorry
we've already screwed with nature too much. So that doesn't exist anymore. So I would just like the board to keep in mind that I believe and I will speak for the applicants. You're going to see them again. They want to do the right thing and this is a perfect absolute perfect
location for reclaiming of a of a wetland area. I'm going through the same thing with a piece of property that I just donated to the tech school and we're looking at it doing 2 and a half acres in combination with a piece that the conservation trust is doing. So I
think things like that are going to definitely help and ease your concerns when you talk about the buffer around there. >> There's heavy fragmiteies in a lot of it. >> Yeah. >> When you're done. Sorry. >> Um,
>> I appreciate what has been said here about uh your overwhelming trying to uh keep the property natural in the way that you approach management
and that uh you're going to look out for the neighbors and everything you've mentioned is great and I think that It's an onus on you because this is an iconic national >> treasure
>> place that people come over that bridge and they see what's happen you know the v vista and I have a long history with trying to get vistas recognized as a use which goes back to some of the early river basin efforts I've involved with
in the 70s and I think that uh what it does though they'll put you on notice for what you've already tried to emphasize, the kind of things that you're doing and will do better. But also that the
neighbors and the all the tourists that come through there know if they see anything you missed, they're going to notice it. And that includes you've got six or more possible future uses for this and including your
floral uh you're talking about goats being you know g giving away or selling goats uh kids um using the goats for invasive uh plant management I presume you're talking
about to customers uh dairy operation and the crearyy possibility. And then you've mentioned trails. You're talking about long-term uses that you're going to have to really uh have a the world
looking at you, including our town, which is actually has defined in this bylaw, your operation farming as commercial, and you are jumping off into that, combining the scenery with commercial.
That's a tough low ho. Good luck. >> Yeah, thank you. It it is one of the most beautiful properties and areas that I've ever been in and uh as a a lifelong resident, it's it's just a treasure and uh couldn't ask for nicer people to run it. It's just uh I couldn't be happier
to be part of this. Thank you. >> Where's that where's that taken? >> This is from the sorry that corner precarious corner. probably from here looking at this
little wetland. >> So, will do they need to resubmit a planned studying can you walk us through the burm now or do you need to lay it out and would be >> Yeah. So, so if you'd like to condition
it, you would have it along the along the east side, the green line along the east side, all along the mode pasture, all around um the uh the eastern wetland. um I don't u believe would need it against the coastal bank on the north there you'd be disturbing soils I think
unnecessarily because you've got a large existing buffer and and uh it's very healthy very healthy turf over there but and it's a much smaller watershed if you notice it's just a very like 40 ft of of of of pitched area so it doesn't have the volume that the swale would pick up
on the around the bowl so um it would be you know you could say it's through A17 uh down to the beginning A7 17 is up at the lot line and it would follow all the way down to a flag a whatever 30 something on the the southeast corner
would be um through flag A34. Uh so if we u proposed a swale from A17 through A34 along along that green I think that'll pick up you know the vast majority of the pasture lands that are pitching towards that wetland and again
importantly not towards the shellfish area which is to the west. Um and that would be u would be happy to give you a revised plan showing that contingent upon um you know uh approval. >> Anybody else in the commission open it up to the public?
>> I'll come back to you afterwards. So >> So is that um are you going to show a buffer as well or just the swale? Well, >> and I understand I understand the concern about a buffer, >> but if they're having all these future plans, um, you can still do a
>> a forb and grass buffer and, you know, have it be transitioned to natives once they start their native management plan for the wetland. I I just think that I know there's a lot of vines and everything there, but >> roots are roots and we if the more roots we can get in between the pasture and
the wetland, the better. So it's >> I think if we keep the grapes and the fragmitees mowed back, we could maintain at a minimum uh an eight foot buffer. So if there's an area like you say that's only three feet right now, we'll plant five feet and and and um and um then
have the fence. So we'd be happy to show that in that same area as well on a revised plan. Okay. >> So 8 foot minimum on that whole stretch from a uh the the flags that I mentioned, A17 to A34. Um, at a minimum you'll have an 8 foot
buffer plus the swale uh built into the buffer and and maintained with natives. Um, and that will help filter uh and I think you know we're we're I think we'll be happy to do that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Um, turn it over to people in the audience. Anybody have any comments, questions? I see a hand in the way back and tell us who you are and Hi. >> First, I'd like to thank all of you for
serving on this board. I know it's not to the microphone a little bit more. >> Is that better? Better. >> I have been in that neighborhood since 1978. >> Oh, tell us who you are first. >> My name is Jean Young. >> Jean Young.
>> The area was zoned residential when I built there. The area was zoned in 1987 when the Belzikians built and uh bought and built it. When they sold the land and home in 19
I'm sorry, 2012, it was zoned residential. That area has never been zoned as a farm. The Belzikians when they sold it advertised it as a quote gentleman farm.
It was never used as pasture land on that side of the road. The pasture land for the cow was on the other side of the road behind my house. That land has
since been sold and two homes have gone up in that area. So, it has not become less residential. It has become more residential. >> I don't think zoning is under our purview either. I don't think zoning's under a purview either. >> What is it? >> Zoning.
>> I can't hear you. I'm sorry. >> You have nothing to do with zoning is what she's telling me. So, >> it has everything to do with what's been brought up in these meetings. I was at the last one and I was at this one. I have heard it this piece of property referred to as farmland repeatedly. It
has never been used as agricultural farm or industrial farmland ever. ever going back to 1600, there may have been some apple trees and pear trees in that time. And
at the same time that you're talking about farming and how important it is for farms in that area, which was brought up in the last meeting, there is an oyster farm just at the mouth of uh uh Mil Pond
that is totally going to be destroyed by the runoff from everything that's going on on this land. Never mind the the shellfishing that's going on across the street from where this farm farm is being put in. It's totally been
misrepresented misrepresented what's going on in this area. It has not been a farm and the people who bought it in in 2012 were never there. Never had a dog on the property, never mind other animals. So
farm, no it is not a farm. I want to know when exactly it became designated as industrial or agricultural or any other kind of land other than residential. That's my question.
And I am angry totally upset about what what is being represented here from you know from Greg talking about being raised on the farm. He was in college when his parents bought that farm. And these, by the way, are all issues that
were brought up at the last meeting. These are not things that I'm bringing up for the first time. >> Right. But we >> Do you have a question? >> We We don't I don't have a question. No, I can just say to you that as far as zoning is concerned, that's something you can take up with the zoning board,
but not with us. >> Well, I'm wondering why you are referring to it as zoned as a farm. Why you are referring to it as a farm? I mean to be clear the application is to establish the use of the property as a farm
>> and if I could through the chair Jack >> I want to call you Frank all the time Jack you have something >> so could I just ask >> the chairman referred to commissioner frost to speak >> u essentially your point is that this is an application for a new farm
>> this is an application for a new farm they came came in originally that it was a farmland and historically and that they would like to
prove it. But the bylaw for the town for farm right to farm states that farming is commercial. So there was never any doubt from our viewpoint that this is a new farm and they meet the standards for it
because >> and so until it's been established as a farm, could we could we just please refer to it as something other than a farm? >> Because it's not a farm. >> It depends on who you're talking to. >> Yeah. People who want to put cows on
goats and sheep and donkeys on it want >> You have anything else you want to say? >> Can't hear you. >> Do you have anything else to add? I have a lot, but I understand that you only want to address things when I'm standing here at the podium that have to do with pollution. And I believe that this is a
great risk for the existing oyster farm that is at the mouth of um of the um of Mill uh Pond. >> Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> One minute. >> Not a report. you know, they they just
requested that BMPs be followed to maintain water quality. >> Um, yeah, and and just just to respond briefly, you know, and I understand there's a lot of passion over this, but this was uh the approval uh the request construct a barn and supported
facilities for farm animals. This was approved by this board in in the early 80s. Um, you know, construct necessary fencing around the open pasture areas to contain grazing animals within those areas. It's every single one of these is a farm use. It wasn't exactly hidden and they constructed a a beautiful thatched
barn and had animals. There's photographs of the of the animals grazing on this field right here. So I I I know memories can be selective, but you know there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Thank you. >> I don't think it's relevant really whether it was a farm or not because >> well I don't like to be considered a liar. So
>> there's a time limit in the last five year was it how many years? Five years. Yeah, there's a limit, but it was a farm >> from the audience. >> Yes, please. >> Yeah. Good evening. My my name is Paul Fitzgerald. I live on Kevin Elaine on
the bossible side of the bridge. Um, I wanted to address something that my wife and I had retained, Alen Wilson, to review and make comments on the plans, the NOI, and the support materials filed by Natasha and Oliver Bram and the Mil
Pond Creek LLC. Alen Wilson has submitted her full thoughts and comments in a letter to the commission on 18 August. Alen cannot be here this evening because of a prior commitment. I'm going to highlight her comments as follow.
Based on the information provided and not provided by the applicant, this is a new agricultural product and must abide by both the state and town wetlands protection regulation. I know I'm not telling you anything, but this is her thoughts. The applicants have not
requested a variance. To do so, they would need to show that the project would improve the e ecological conditions over what exists, would not adversely affect any area subject to protection under your regulations, and are that the project provides an
overriding public benefit, and there is no feasible alternative to the proposed work. The applicants have not requested a variance because they cannot make those requisite showings. My concerns relative to the water quality have been addressed in the
letter you received from Ali and Wilson Associates and also covered by comments from other neighbors. I would like to insert a little bit of my own history here as as Jack did when he spoke is that
I was notified as an official abuter. I believe I should have been as Howlet's Mill Pond directly abuts and influences my property. The tidal estuary on the west side is affected every day by what flows from the pond with the tide
changing twice daily at certain high tides which occur a few times each season. The water rises up onto my lawn and has even spilled into my vegetable garden. This is not an abstract concern for me or my neighbors. It is where we live and how we live. I swim in the
estuary from May through October, as do many of the Kevin Lane neighbors. Families such as my next door neighbor, the Kitridges, often bring friends and schoolmates to jump from the bridge at high tide, riding the current into the pond, then floating back with the tide
into the estuary and then all the way to the short walk on Water Street. Fishing is seasonal and popular here, depending on what's running. Some of us on the comer side also shellfish in the pond as part of it lies within bstable.
For these reasons, even though I was not formally notified, I feel it is important to share how decisions made on the arm side of the bridge directly impact the quality of the pond, the estuary and bonsible harour and by extension the health and safety of those
who swim, fish, shellfish and boat throughout the year. Finally, anyone who has driven over the bridge knows the sound of the gulls dropping cohogs, muscles, and scolop shells to crack them open. If the pond's outflow becomes contaminated by by
bacteria, closing the shell fishing and swimming, but that will not stop the gulls or the contamination from spreading further into the estuary. This decision is sensitive and important. I ask you to be absolutely certain that the proposed goat farm will
not have a harmful impact on the pond, the estuary, and the harbor. Any negative changes here would alter this environment and the way generations of residents from both Bonstable and Yamoth have used and enjoyed it. I simply urge
you not to act on this proposal until you have a site plan that is detailed, complete, and in full compliance with your regulations, which is the current which the current plan is not. >> Thank you. [Applause]
>> Anybody else comments? I see a hand. Hello, my name is Paul Messier. I live on Thatcher Shore Road in Yarmouthport. Um, looking at the well, essentially what we're talking about here, um, water quality and the protection of the water
quality, it comes down to a risk assessment and that's seemingly what this commission. >> Sure. Yeah. Um, what I'm what I'm what I said was we're talking about a risk assessment here and I'm wondering what
the standard for risk is looking at the um the documents that were compiled that are compiled online. There's a um a letter from um the Massachusetts Department of of Fisheries and in that
letter it seems like the risk is absolute. that says no contamination. The plan has to ensure no contamination. And I'm not sure I've heard anything
here that eliminates the risk. And I'm wondering if that's the standard that's applied here. And um can we get an objective evaluation of
the risk that in fact the risk is zero [Applause] >> just taking notes that's >> I was taking notes that's why I was looking down I don't want you to think I was ignoring you. Anybody else?
>> Yes, [Music] >> Mr. Chairman and members. Um Joshua Stain, 128 Water Street, right across the street from 88 Mil Lane. Thank you for listening. Despite the 75minute presentation, detailed feedback, and two
weeks to respond, the applicant's NOI still violates numerous state and town regulations to help this commission do its legally required job. And for the record, I'd like to make some comments. First, the plan fails to protect
wetlands and wildlife. Much of the fencing would be inside protected riverfront, coastal banks, tidal lands, floodlands, and up against the wetlands edge with little to zero buffer, which we've heard tonight, and a steep drop
off. This violates state wetland regulation 310 CMR 10.02. 8 ft is not the minimum. The law states the buffer and no variance has been requested. Second, much fencing would be
within the 35 to 50 foot no disturbance buffer zone. Mr. O'hala conceded that it's within 8 or 10 ft. The applicant has not explained why this won't cause a substantial adverse impact. This violates town wetlands regulation
section 6.02. The applicant hasn't addressed or even evaluated how its 4 1/2 to 6 foot high metal welded wire and raised stone wall fencing, especially in buffer areas, would obstruct the vital wildlife
corridors that deer, otter, and other wild animals use to move between this and abudding conservation land. This fencing would be far taller and less permeable than than past split rail fencing. And as the applicant said last
time, quote, "The donkeys will kick the teeth out of whatever bothers the goats and these little suckers, the goats, can jump to other land." This failure and obstruction violate 310 CMR 10.022B2B. Fourth, the applicant hasn't provided
any evidence showing why its alterations should be allowed, how they meet the rigorous regulatory performance standards, why they won't have a significant adverse effect, and why no practical alternative with less aver less adverse effects exists. They
haven't explored this and they are legally required to under the regulations. This violates 310 CMR 10.58. Second, the plan poses unacceptable risk to water quality. Their plan would result in discharging of animal waste,
pesticide, and fertilizer into water resource areas, violating mass uh division of marine fisheries requirement of quote no runoff or animal waste or associated nutrients into nearby wetlands or waterways end quote. It also
violates the town storm water regulations ban on such discharges and it violates the town's wetland regulations ban on fertilizer such as manure within 35 to 50 ft of wetlands. And let me explain a little bit why.
First, citing the shed on a high point and letting 30 to 40 animals graze on downward sloping pastures would maximize illegal animal waste, pesticide, and fertil fertilizer discharges and polluted runoff into wetlands. In 2012,
Down Cape helped document runoff across Mil Lane into Mil Pond and the hydraological link from 88 Mills wetland system through catch basins and an underground pipe to wetlands on the other side of Water Street. The plan
currently as submitted omits these conveniently. These interconnected water resources would spread contamination, not act as a BOF filter as Mr. Ahala represented. Second, the area's documented poorly draining soils,
standing surface water, and flooding of abudding lots would worsen illegal pollutant runoff. Picking up manure only three times per week would increase contamination runoff. What if it rains on no collection days? What if it rains
very hard or there are major thunderstorms or hurricanes coming up the coasts with gale force winds? At the last hearing, the applicant said it didn't even know if Mil Lane's culvert works and whether its operations would further harm Mil Pond and its shellfish.
Today, it appears and says it can hear whistling through the pipe and somehow we're all supposed to be comfortable that that's adequate for not harming Mil Lane and its shellfish and adhering to a zero runoff standard set by the state and local regulations. Further, the
state's design and location at top a steep hill would leave zero room for error. It contradicts the very mass DFA fact sheet that the applicants themselves filed, which requires manure storage to be contained, impermeable all
the way around, not just the floor, and away from sloped lands. Given the area's high flood and wind risk, its roof wouldn't prevent storm water from flowing from the barn side, mixing with manure and running off down the hill.
Manure facilities concrete pads, research shows, are well known to be prone to cracks, particularly when the manure piles dry up during the wet, non-growing season, as the applicant said they would allow to do. Despite time to update their filing, the NOI's
shed image still lacks even basic runoff uh anti-runoff sloping gutters and settling basins. Mr. O'hala now says they'll do some of that. It's not in the application. As I noted, state and town regulations require no runoff. Saying
there can be no runoff doesn't make it so. Despite your request, the applicant still has not submitted legally adequate best management practices. Its new one-page chart names 12 different BMPPS,
cites sources that have hundreds of pages irrelevant to what they would do on this land, and claims compliance by having one column citing reciting a few BMP buzzwords. The applicant's NRCS references, if you've looked them up,
are to national standard documents that NRCS specifies on its website, quote, should not be used to plan, design, or install a conservation practice, end quote. A legally compliant plan requires
specific, engineered, enforcable strategies with timelines and monitoring to prevent harm to storm water, flood control, and habitat. The applicant's plan lacks all of these. Finally, the fecal caulifform bacteria risk is
substantial. The proposed animals would generate nearly half a ton of manure weekly with higher nitrogen concentration than cows or horses. They will pollute legally protected areas with illegal bacteria and nitrogen
pollution. The applicant's assertion that smaller waste is less hazardous is simply false. And despite claiming extensive farm experience, they continue to withhold from this commission weekly manure volume figures that are needed to
properly analyze what the actual risk is to the surrounding wetlands and waterways. As Mr. Frost said regarding the fireworks matter. Quote, "As we get older, we realize more about the impacts that these things have." End quote.
That's the case with 88 mil Lane. For example, the town's management, storm water management um regulations didn't even exist, but when the Belellazikians built this property, we also didn't know that Mil Pond would be closed for 30 years due to fecal caulifform bacteria.
And the list goes on. In conclusion, the applicant suggests that they will return for future approvals, but as I think some of the members of this commission have alluded to, if this project is approved, it could qualify for exemptions that would allow future
expansion without further scrutiny, leaving the town only to its own resources to enforce whatever you decide here. We urge the commission to carefully consider the current NOI and the undetailed extensive future plans.
This NOI should be denied. Thank you. [Applause] >> Yes. Good evening. [Music]
My name is Ron Gable. My property shares a boundary with 88 Mil Lane. The new owners propose housing 30 goats and two donkeys at 88 Mil Lane. They
will spend from sun sunrise to sunset on the pastures depositing manure and urine in downward sloping areas prone to runoff. Every day the animals will deposit
hundreds of pounds of colorform bacteriarich feces in the pastures which will not be mitigated by cleaning up the manure every third day. Rainfall will cause California bacteria
from the feces that will cause environmental harm. According to the site plan, the elevation of the pastures is more than 25 feet above me's main high tide.
This substantial winter hydrostatic gradient will facilitate the flow of colorful bacteria leeched from the feces into the pond. Groundwater will carry colorful bacteria
under nine into the pond and a cover at the foot of one of Milan's dilute driveway will provide free flow of California bacterial laden move from the
nearby pastures into the pond. The ecology of my pond is fragile. Orange signs periodically appear on the shores to prohibit shellfishing because of contaminate contamination with
California bacteria. The plant was closed to shell fishing for many years likely due at least in part to polluted from the pastures in the
farm that previously occupied Mil Lane. Pollution from the farm can be can be expected to increase the number of days that a high density of cifform bacteria in milk pond will shut down shell fishing. The farm's additional
load of cififor bacteria may in fact permanently prohibit commercial shell fishing in the pond and make it unfit to swimming and other recreational activities. I believe that the proposal proposed
farm's adverse effects on water quality are unacceptable. [Music] [Applause] Zoom. Anybody want to speak? Please raise your
hand. I see one person. >> Sam. >> Sam. >> Sam. you uh are you muted? I can't tell. >> Sam, you calling on you.
>> Sam, you're live. Any comments on Zoom? >> If none we will move on. >> He's not he's not doing it. So, anyone else on Zoom? >> I can't see. Isn't there? >> Hi. Can you hear us? Sorry, it's Sam.
>> Sam. Yeah. >> Sorry, it's Rachel. I'm on Sam's computer. It's Rachel Rosen from 128 Water Street. I want to commend the person on the commission who actually seem to have read our letters and we greatly appreciate that you consider the laws that we are u bringing up. I want
to stress and I hope the new owners understand this that the people that are speaking on our behalf and on the behalf of the neighborhood have lived there for 40 and 50 years. The new owners have not even spent a full week in the neighborhood. The people here are
speaking out of their heart because they've seen the ups and downs of the water supply in our area. I'm extremely concerned that we're talking about how wett manure is a good thing. No way is wetting manure a good thing. While you may be able to pick it up easier,
wetting it puts it in the water supply. So, I'm very bothered by this whole conversation about how we should let sprinklers run on the poop. This is incredibly disturbing. And while this may be best farm practice when you're not in a wetlands, it cannot be a best
practice when you're in the wetlands. I would strongly urge everybody on this commission to really follow the law, not just rubber stamp something because it's in front of the committee. Every single person here has researched this, hired
lawyers, hired experts to understand all of the issues that are involved here. So, please make sure you do your due diligence before you approve this. I will say I think if you've been listening we are doing our due diligence. We haven't rubber stamped
anything and also I think you misheard the wetting of the manure is just the opposite. They would be doing the manure uh before they irrigate or if there was a big storm coming before a big storm. So uh I just want to make those two
corrections. But I would definitely defend what we're doing and how we're working this through and listening to both sides and making decisions and spending a lot of time on it ourselves. Thank you. Anybody else online?
>> Vincent. >> What? >> Vincent. >> Vincent. >> Someone has good eyes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Go ahead, Vincent. I I apologize because I know this is outside your purview, but I would just like to know uh at what
point it will be within the purview of one of the committees that's going to be reviewing this application that goes forward. I live at 48 mil lane. The lane is uh barely capable of having two cars pass one another. So, I know it's not your issue, but can you tell me which
commission will be looking at the issues associated with traffic? >> I I don't know. I don't know at this time. U we can I don't know if there's a committee that refuses >> ask the town manager because I I really
don't know the answer to that question. Would it be the DPW? I mean I've often asked that question in relationship to other things going on in towns who does traffic studies. To be honest with you, I don't get a very good answer. So you might ask the town manager's office and
>> Sure. Thank you. Yeah. Because as all the all the roads around here are very narrow. Thank you. >> That makes why we like living here. Uh just just to address the traffic issue I sorry just to address this traffic issue we probably have
>> sorry can you hear me now uh Natasha Brmpst issue um >> oh I'm sorry Natasha Bronst I'm the applicant thank you sorry about that um we probably have I don't know all over
four pay trucks a year um I know I'm Just I just want to because there's a lot of statements >> we have nothing to do with >> I understand but traffic should not be a material issue for people to be concerned about >> deal with that in another group of people we have enough to
>> deal with here >> the DPW online >> that's fine >> okay >> okay I don't see anybody >> so >> commissioners anybody we'll start with Paul >> yeah thank you I've it's been interesting to
listen to all of the um folks who live over in that area. Certainly some very knowledgeable people about an awful lot of laws and regulations and so on. And I just would want to say the next time we have an opening on this committee, I'd love to have some of you participate. Um
something something that we have trouble with sometimes. Um we're volunteers to this town. We don't get paid anything. We're not a rubber stamp type of a of a committee. uh we try to do a friendly job in terms of watching out for the
environment and doing our best to help um with the enforcement of the Wetland Protection Act. So, um we may do you may say things that are imperfect and so do we, but um please be assured that we're doing our best to consider all of your
concerns. It is kind of um interesting that the um the establishment of a of a farm is such a such a problem in an area that was built upon agriculture. I could
only um wonder what would have happened in 16 um 39 or whatever it was if people had to make an application for a farm in those days. Um, I think what you're doing is perfectly appropriate is speaking your minds, giving us some more
information, helping us with the consideration. Um, but please remember that we're we're with you, too. We're town's people. I don't live far from that area. I've always enjoyed that area. And um we would do nothing, I'm
sure, to ever um uh you know, judge or to um vote for something that we thought was extremely delotterious to that particular area or any other area in town. And it's a it's a struggle. It's a struggle because people are always um
second-guessing the Wetland Protection Act requirements and so on and so forth. And um I hope you understand that all these folks next to me are doing their best to um work in a way that is in the best interest of this town. Thank you.
>> Oh yeah. Thank you. Um I wish I brought my binder with me with the Wetlands Protection Act. I mean we all are as familiar and and we um are we're getting continuing ed on it and and I just want to make it clear that we
We do follow the guidelines. Um let's talk about the difference between um because seems to be the subject at hand is manure. Is it a fiscal reason why the the bio am I saying it right? The
bioader is not being utilized. Could you explain to me how that would improve the manure removal versus the structure? It it's I mean I'm I'm leaning here that that might be something you need to do. Is
this bioadator if you could just tell me the pros and cons and and is it a fiscal issue? >> Um it's $30,000. It's it's a it's a substantial investment. Um but you know um we're of the opinion that we could do it without it, but we we would certainly
it might be uh you know like a washing machine versus washing the the dishes by hand. you know, it might be something that they they move towards in a year or two. Um, but >> how does it work? I mean, you have >> So, where do you store it in the meantime or >> Oh, it's always in an enclosed structure anyway. So, it'll be in inside the uh
the composting area and you load one end and the clean manure, the the composted organics come out the other side. But, it adds a little bit of moisture. It gets the temperature right. It mixes it, oxygenates it, and uh basically is just like a like a like a cement mixer. It slowly moves through as it's processed
and and the nice fertilizer comes out the other end. They have online some some information on that. >> Well, >> is it something that we should explore here? Because you heard the concerns of the public even though we're doing everything possible to drain this property correctly. I don't know if the
audience heard this about this burm around the whole perimeter. I mean, that's we're addressing the runoff. >> Yeah. And although it's 25 ft higher, it's pitched away from Mil Mill Creek and Mil Pond. >> Would this help the manure runoff is my question?
>> You know, it's it's just a it's a laborsaving device. I think the quality as long if it's a well-managed u uh composting area, it would be equivalent. Um I don't know, Leo, did you have any thoughts? Okay. >> I think what we're doing now is uh we're confusing two things. the manure out
that has been dropped daily by the animals out on the pasture and the effects of that that some of the people may have concerned about and then the actual manure storage if you will or compost area. So it's two entirely different things. I personally have not
had good experience with these mechanical devices but again as what was set up here on the board agriculture is becoming an historic thing and I'm a historic person. My wife doesn't have a dishwasher. Doesn't like them. Never
liked them. She always washed her dishes by hand as Dan said. And this is a similar kind of thing. It's new. It's a piece of machinery though. It is a piece of machinery. It's mechanical. It works. Um I personally will tell you that I am
not impressed with them. Uh Robert our company and myself got together about 15 years ago and designed a similar kind of situation. It just it was more problematic. The I even suggested to the applicant that
if the manure becomes a problem, the manure storage or composting area becomes a problem, just remove it. >> Yeah. >> It's not you, we're not talking thousands of tons here. You come in with a little loader and you dump it into a dump trailer and off the site it goes.
And then it's not Yamoth's problem. you know, town of Howitch would love to take it for $10 a ton because they use it in their thing. I would rather see that as a backup than a mechanical uh aspect thing. >> So, so
with the the manure, I have chickens. I had to go to the board of health to get approval for my chickens and they came and they came back to make sure that I kept a clean coupe. Does the board of health come back and
check on means and methods and >> count the animals? Absolutely. >> Involving the waste removal at all like all the towns that have board of health here on the Cape. All of them that have health agents, they have barn inspections on an annual basis. It's
either done through someone at the board of health or the animal inspector or the dog officer, if you will, who has knowledge from the board of health about the management, >> food storage and and weight. >> Absolutely. Rats, uh, infestation. >> It's important for the public to know.
>> Yes, >> that's I know it's out of our purview. >> It's all covered when they're uh usually it's done like like the hotel inspections. It's usually done a certain time of year. conclude on my question. This is just uh to to to just clean the manure to temp.
>> This composted quicker. >> It's just composted quicker. >> Composted quicker and then it becomes a soil if you will. And again, I think one of the reasons why I've not had much luck with them is cuz once they once it becomes soil and if this machine is
doing what it does and it's moving it from manure, >> a nitrogenrich product to soil and even if it doesn't in two weeks, >> most farms end up having to get rid of the soil anyhow because they don't have a place to use it
>> and they don't have enough area to cover it. So, it's kind of not been a a >> Yeah, they haven't. I They have in their um application that they would be removing any any compost that doesn't fit or becomes too much. And I think that is a better solution
than this. Sometimes they just dehydrate and it's not really compost at the end and you're not really sure. So I would agree. >> You don't know what happens in there. It's like a trash compactor. >> Remove it. >> So we have um >> September 4th or 18th for more information as we talked about. What
would you prefer? Um well u again pleasure the board um you know would be very comfortable with with with closing the hearing subject to receipt of a plan showing as discussed the buffer between um the two flags. Um
I I don't know how much more we can add. Um again u you know >> we did discuss a a significant number of items and some you provided I would I would prefer it's up to the commission. I would not >> today I would >> David Yeah, I don't >> personally because I just think there
are too many questions. People brought up some good points. Um I'm not an expert or even close to being a scientist. So um I don't need time to figure out how to look at what some of these points were.
Um I did want to ask um I think it's Joshua Stain. Did did you put your stuff in writing? >> Yes, he read it. Yeah. Okay. So, didn't look at names when I read everything, but I'll read yours again. And um same and I did read uh the one we received
the other day from uh I don't remember the name. Um >> Wilson letter and I just need to spend time and um I have lots of other things to do in life too because Paul said we're all here. >> Public comment has closed.
with regard to that, if I might. Yes, I submitted that in my letter and that letter as well as my prior letter of August one indicate even more violations. >> If we're getting an a new plan, would it be possible to see where the irrigation is located during
ft buffer? Just just that section. >> Yeah, we can. There's a separate irrigation plan that was put in, but it's fuzzy, so I can overlay that. >> Yeah. Is it possible to combine? >> Yeah, we could combine that. No problem. Um Um I am I am away on the 13th for two
weeks. So that's my my life. Um >> could I or the 4th or >> September 4th is our next one. That would only give you one week for revisions. >> Um I think we'd like to try for that. um we can get the revisions in within a
week easily and um okay you know if if possible >> as far as comments public comments are concerned >> what date or >> September 4th >> September 4th >> give me a minute >> yes Paul
>> yeah I just um you know as I think I said um I'm always concerned with upholding the regulations and the um of both the town regulations and the wetland and protection act and and I look to Britney for the most part regarding whether or not whatever is
being presented is violating either one of those things. Now certain comments have been made to tonight where very specifically it's been at least alleged that there are violations that exist in this whole proposal. I would like to, and I think you're going to do this, go
through each one of them item by item so I understand if in fact they are truly violations or they are just somebody who's um you know desperate to stop this particular thing. And uh I I kind of don't think that's the case. There might
be some rhyme or reason to some of the comments, but I really would like to review that so that when I finally vote, I know that we are within our upholding our responsibilities having to do with the wetland protection act and the town regulations.
[Applause] >> We're difficult subject. This is something that possibly few here have seen. a guide to agriculture and the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act. This is a manual put out by the
state and it uh is a little bit old but it does go through how the state is encouraging the farming but it also so each town can make its own bylaws under the state right to farm
act. The what I would like to address at this point is best management practices and I think very few people understand how these are derived for the conservation ser I'm sorry for the natural resources
conservation service um they essentially have the national standards which as Ellie pointed out it was a good table but that table doesn't really identify the specific standards that are being
addressed. And I sort of quickly went over the point that I'd like to see more detail on the farm plan when I should be more explicit about the person's questions on the the legal problems and all the
things that Paul wants to go through which are will be important for the future because really I'm talking about the local best management practices the soil uh the water resource They
essentially say the national are taken by the states and derived their own general laws for the state, their own best management practices and then the conservation districts take those with the help of the NRCS. They work out what are the
local best management practices that take into consideration the soils, the water and all the other differences that each district has. As you know, we're very different than just a few miles inland in the
Massachusetts. So, they have to be specific to the district conservation, you know, best management practices. And I think that as you understand that process, when I talk about going to see
your farm plan, we got to be detailed. There's going to have to be explicit rotational issues addressed. explicit chemical use issues expressed. And I think that um this is a key to an
ongoing acceptance of what's happening. If you go to goat milk production, if you if you go to bringing events on the farm, that's going to impact possibly erosion control act, you know,
situation, lots of things. So it may not may not be in our purview, but it may end up overlapping with some of ours. So I just want to clarify what we're talking about a little bit. >> Oh, thank you. I I know. And on the
contrary, I'm trying to simplify this and and and what I what we need to do is protect the adjacent wetlands. And I see that what you should do or could do is because you're introducing swailes. Okay. You It would be nice if you did a
a drainage a drainage plan, an overlay if you will, like because you have to place these swailes so they're effective. We need to see that and we need to see how you've studied it, you know, with arrows. Pretty, you know,
pretty simple, but it's an overlay of of drainage. I mean, that seems to be the big issue here. And it's a very simple uh solution to show how you have addressed it and and and then you know
and show show where it's located it but I think on a separate I think you might have to do an overlay or a separate plan. I don't know if you >> be happy to do that. That's it's it's straightforward to do and it there's so much on here that it just a simple drainage plan showing the where the runoff goes where it will be rerouted
specifically from the composting area is a great idea. Be happy to do it. you know that's what you do. Thank you. >> One little more. >> Uh on big projects we ask the
applicants to provide information that they will have to do studies or other kind of ways of collecting what the problem may be what you know water quality the town putting water the waste water
back into Parker's river. Lots of studies are being done and and at some point if we see that it's questionable situation, we could request you folks to go back in and do more detailed uh studies of what the impacts may be. I
don't see that happening, but I'm just sort of pointing that out here how it's a bigger, more complicated picture that you've gotten yourselves into than you might have imagined. Well, you know, it sounds from from the gist of what I'm getting here, we're
happy to comply and we want to be good citizens. So, I'm happy to do it as long as about what we're talking about gets approved. I don't think we have any problems. Thank you. >> So, I'll just bring this to a closure before we vote to
extend >> I'm sorry, what' you say? >> I was going to bring this say something to >> continue. Okay. This is in my time here, this is the first time we've had a farm come in front of us. We come in front of us with
docks and peers and and other things. We we know what we're doing. We know exactly we we you know, but for a lot of us, for me, I'll talk about myself. This is education. And I've spent a long time spent all day today doing things and met
with Britney for an hour yesterday. So, it's a lot of work and uh we're not rubber stamping anything. We're not going to say yes, you can do this because we want to farm. We want to make sure that the water stays clean as Paul and and Jack both said and I know the
rest of the commissioners feel the same way. So, just going to take time and um we'll work it through. Um mean they're not going to get the farm. No, it doesn't mean that. mean that we're going to make sure if they if we do vote for the farm that that we can guarantee to
the best of our ability that the that the uh water will stay clean or if it gets gets dirty if it gets polluted it may it may not be because of the farm because as some of you commented earlier there are times they've closed the uh
shellfish and I talked to Cassandra about this a couple weeks ago she's the shellfish person she there are times she's closed it and that was before there was a farm or without a farm. So sometimes it gets closed for other reasons um not just because there's a
farm in the area. So um we need to we you know we don't want it to close because of the farm. We don't have control of other runoffs. Um I know some of you probably um ironically put on lots of stuff on your grass to keep it green and pretty and and water your
lawns even though we're in a drought and asking people not to water their lawns. Um, and the irony is some of that stuff gets put into the water. So, you know, I would suggest neighbors talk to neighbors about not putting down pesticides on your lawn. Uh, sometimes
it's because of um of other reason, septic tanks and things like that. So, that's why we're doing waste water um treatment plant. So, I just want you to consider all that. There's a lot of variables why
um why water gets closed off. There were 65 beaches in the state of Massachusetts last week and they were closed for various reasons. So, we're doing our best and uh so I'm going to take a motion to uh continue to
>> September 4th. >> September 4th. So, move uh Jack. >> I'll second. >> Second. All in favor? >> I. >> All opposed. Okay. I appreciate all your input and hope to continue to have it
and um that's all we can say. We're going to move on to the rest of our agenda. Thank you. Thank you all. >> Appreciate your time. >> Can you put this? >> That's okay.
And it's that's useless. >> I was on my way here. introducing >> good for the minutes. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> All right. Let's move ahead to uh minutes from >> agenda. Which I have to
>> anybody read them and approve them? Okay. >> Good. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I'd like to make a motion that we approve the minutes July 17th and August 7th. Let's do July 17th first because I can't vote on July 17th. >> Okay. July 17th first.
>> Second. Second. Okay. All in favor? >> I >> Okay. >> Now you can go August. >> I would like to make a motion that we approve the M meetings for August 7th as written. >> Second. >> Second. >> Second. All in favor?
>> I. No one. Okay. Um the next one is the significant drought status uh returned on August 8th. Um we talked about this on the side. I know I was with um a couple people last week on our site
visits and I said I counted 26 homes in my neighborhood was still watering every day. >> What can we do about it? >> What can we do about that's the problem? You know they send a letter out and that's as much as they can do. They can't turn the water off. They can't
find them. It's sad. So, if you're out there listening and you um are watering, please stop because we're going to run into major problems. >> See the leaves turning brown on Route Six. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you can
hand water. You can handwater your plants and your garden. >> Why can't we >> Why can't something more be done than just Would that be a regulation or >> um it's under the water department, but
you can ask them. >> We could ask them. >> Yeah, I'm going to call them tomorrow myself. Oh, not tomorrow. Monday. Tomorrow. >> I I go to work early in the morning and I see all the businesses have their have
it going >> and they have it done at noon or 1:00 in the afternoon. That's the other thing. I w I drove by a couple of hotels on 28 and they're watering at noon. I mean, that's just a waste of water because it never >> a hot day.
>> Yeah. >> Doesn't do anything. They want you to water before 9 after 5 by hand only. >> This is just sprink What's what's 10 minutes? But uh people are and as as Ellie just said to me,
There are a number of people don't live on the Cape who are gone all summer and their water's always on and they ignore the letter because the letter has no that is a request not a >> there's no oomph. >> Oh >> yes. >> Yeah. For the record I guess um because
I don't know if who's listening but um you know in other departments for example I think of the building department when there's a violation there's building going on without a permit. Even our commissioner there's things going on without a permit. Um, but it'll stick to the building. They get a red sticker on the front of the
house to say cease and desist. Um, in this particular time, I know that unfortunately a lot of times the the various town departments don't have enough people to do what they I think would like to do. But in this kind of situation, they might designate somebody
to drive around the town a little, you know, two, three times a week with some sort of sticker or some kind of a letter or some kind of a sign that they stick in the in the in the yard or whatever, knock on the door and say, "Listen, it seems you've been watering. I wonder if
you might stop." You know, and the same thing, cease and desist. Um, and you know, I I happened to talk to somebody at the water department. and I asked some questions about myself and um I got the same information or sending a letter out, you know. So, so I wish I wish
there somebody in the water department. I see their trucks going around. I don't know how many people work for the water department, but you know that to me the thing is if there was a water leak, right? They'd be on top of that. They'd have to be because it would be a waste of water. Well, this is a similar waste
of water and a dangerous waste of water. So why don't they just cruise around town for two hours in the morning or something like that or before they quit for the day and put up a sticker or a sign or something.
>> They do know they do know how much water you're using because what I called up was >> Yeah, I know. >> give them a couple of addresses on the local snitch and um and um she said, "Oh yeah, look. Yeah, I can see it's you know using much more water." >> Oh, they have the water meter.
>> Yeah, they know. >> They know. Yeah. So, >> well, that's what I was going to mention is that the meters themselves can be used for that for tracking >> and it would probably take personnel and time and money to make it so they could
automate that to give a list of the people that are using water and when. But I suppose it could be done or even if we need better metering at some point that would cost a bit of money. But uh
>> generally they can't go on the property and turn the water off. A lot of people's >> you know you can lock your box so they can't unlock it anyway. And so I don't know what the you know what the >> Well, I I don't think that the water should be shut off. I mean that would
might be very dangerous for somebody. Um >> talking about the irrigation. >> Oh the irrigation. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think you should shut off. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't have an answer, but uh except for the citizens of Yarmouth have to cooperate. I mean,
we're blaming the the uh it sounds like we're blaming the water department, but it's really not their fault. It's the citizens who should be, you know, >> absolutely. Yeah. >> No, that water is precious. We have one aquifer in this on Cape Cod.
>> Well, >> we're in a drastic drought. >> May I small drought, right? >> Significant. Yeah, point out because they talked about the acryer up there on Mill Lane and they're not connected. That lacrifer does not do anything about, you know, it doesn't get its
water from down here. It gets its water coming out of the the local lacrifer not it's not very big area that it draws on. Um and this is a part of the problem of people understanding even the
professional thing stuff I see and how what I see described is inaccurate the way they talk about the big flow of water coming out of you know from the sandwich in Falmouth it doesn't go clear down well first of all the bass river is
in the way for it to go any further and but there's a lot more complication of the water Um, and I think that that's up to us to try to clarify. >> You want to say something?
>> Um, the fall MACC conference was announced in Devons again um October 25th. They're also doing a fall fundamentals frenzy. If anyone sees anything they want to take, let me know. >> And you, not you personally, but the conservation department pays for
>> Yes. >> Yes. So if you want to go or you want to get your certification which >> when is that? >> Yeah, now I did >> 25th. >> Um it's so all the fundamentals are in your >> are online. You'll have to see which ones you have a credit I think Jack you have to use. >> Hey, what
>> you have a credit. >> So you got to get one class at least. >> Got to get a couple more. >> Yeah, >> three actually. >> Can you send me info on it? >> It was well I thought it was well worth getting the certification >> if you're a member. You should have
gotten an email, but I'll send you >> Keep going classes over and over again. >> Rude. >> Okay. Anything else? I want to thank you all of you for being so knowledgeable and good about asking good questions and
especially with the controversy of the farm. I appreciate it in case I don't say it enough. >> Um, can I hear a motion to um journ? >> So moved. Second. >> Second. >> Second right here. Okay. All in favor? >> I
>> We are adjourned at 7:26 according to >> recording stopped. You're allowed to second things, David. Part: 2
Good evening. Welcome to the Conservation Commission meeting for Thursday, August 21st, 2025. We're going to go right into our business. And the first business is Jan Butler for the New Year Seaside Festival Committee for Fireworks and Pollution
Control Bank of Seaside Festival at Seville Beach Reach. Thank you. Um, well, you called me that year. So, you gave us a letter. I've given you the letter. I've given
you um the fireworks um information. I've given you the SDS. Um, and I didn't know what other information we might need. Just summarize, you have um 19 volunteers,
right? And the next morning, the tides are in our favor. The company, they said that um they did talk about uh biodegradable cardboard. Yes,
biodegradable can mean a lot of things. You have them, right? Um I believe he is going to check in with the Zoom meeting and um we might be able to answer that rather than I was the professional not I Warren Pierce.
Who's up there? Warren, do you have an answer to the biodegradable question? Sure. Um the majority of the fireworks going to of course are built in China and so the paper is not uh really very very strong.
So the majority of the debris that comes from a fireworks show small pieces of paper and they're like any other piece of paper and they degrade very quickly. We shoot we shot the show many many years in a row and when we go back each year we do not find any of the stuff
from the year before. um we don't find any paper or any residue or any of the things from the prior year. So obviously there's some level of of degradation going in nuts with that with that material. We also um know that the plastics is is an issue. We we're
concerned about it too and we're we've uh instructed our suppliers not to put any more plastic on it than needed. And for the show for the show that we were proposing to do this year, all the plastic will be removed. So the net result is there'll be the firework
itself which has an oxidizer in it so it burns completely and the small pieces of paper and some of the husks some of the shells partial shells which again are just cardboard and paper but we also go along and pick all those big pieces up and everything. So basically we're
leaving just very small amounts of paper which biodegrades and disappears relatively quickly. questions. Okay. Um I have one other concern that's the timing of the cleaning since it seems to
be quite tied on the 13th at 6:35 and no tide at 12:28. So what time do you think we'll be out there? First crew will come out between probably closer to 8:00 in the morning. The tide's coming out by then. Yes. Yes.
Um and um have the other members of the cleanup crew come a little bit later. Okay. You have something else to say? If I may. Um we um I'll be out there very early uh because I have to meet the fire department and do a walk through.
It's a first light check. It's required by the law. And I'll be doing that and then we'll begin our any cleanup that we could do will begin at that point. So we will be early. Thank you. Thank you. Um I I think you did a nice
amount of work uh attending to a lot of the details that concerned us from the last meeting. Um thank you for doing that. I wondered if um I think it was mentioned in the last meeting that maybe in the future, whether it be next year, a year after, whatever, you can consider
some other type of um ceremony other than fireworks at the end of the um the uh SCI festival. Um I think there are things that can be done with um kind of laser shows and this that and the other thing that are much more friendly to the environment. So um if you could your
committee could consider that it would be appreciated. We certainly will. Thank you. Look into that. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. I'd like to second that. Uh I think that uh there are chemicals that
uh the colors particularly in the fireworks that are really not well uh researched unless your contractor knows about some. He he does and chemicals that are up in the sky and
give you the color are burnt out. Well, they're burnt out but they leave chemical. any residue and that gets dispersed throughout the air and certainly eventually falls if not sooner or later on in the ocean or the land
near the ocean. So, I think that uh this is something that as we go along, get older, we realize the impacts are more and more important and that we'd like to see if there's alternatives maybe. Well, I don't want
to put the fireworks on the land because it's going to be impacting on the land, but I'm that fireworks are laid off around the world. Yeah. And um out of 15 towns, there's 10 of them
that we find. That's right. So um that's the problem I'm talking about. Right. This is for I guess. Do we have any structure for followup on this? Um or just uh is it going to be just by you
know word of mouth or something didn't go well? Yeah, I'm happy to um follow up after D, sorry, DPW does their vacate on Tuesday to make sure everything has been cleaned up as agreed. Um the only other thing I want to add is next year if you come to us in February,
so we don't feel like we're against the Exactly. because I felt like I was against the divide because it's it's really put a a hurt on us as far as many other things. Um but yes, I would appreciate that.
Anybody want to make a motion to uh we have conditions on this? Um yeah, just the only thing that wasn't in the plan was that the volunteers would follow up closer to low tide after the hired professionals cleanup. So that covers all of our tides and
I'll be giving you my word. Second. I'll second. Second. Okay. All in favor say I. Anybody oppose? Okay. Well, we have approved. So, we can apply for our state permit now. Correct. Okay. Thank you very much.
Send them everything. Yeah. I'll respond with your town property use form with the conditions we spoke about and approval of your plan. Well, thank you and I thank the commission very much. Yeah. Thank you, Warren. Okay.
Yeah. Next is uh PC for uh SE83221 kilo 27 road. Thank you. There's nothing to sign for.
Not yet. [Music] How do you want to do this? The CC. Yeah, go ahead. Um, good evening. I am still Lance with Crawford Land Management. Um, this is Jen Crawford, also Crawford Land
Management. Um, representing Lance and Pamela Royal for 27th Roads. Uh we are requesting a certificate of compliance for SE 832314. Permit was approved in January of 2020 allowed for the rebuilding of the patio.
Uh widen it a little bit um added parking area uh walkways to the yard and a fence along the top of the coastal bank. Um and then at the migration for this uh native plantings were added to the landscape beds and where uh there
used to be lawn as well. some was given up for native plantings. Um, and this work has been completed and it's in the general areas that were on the plan. There are some differences. Um, the hardscape decreased, the patio was
not lined as much as thought and the park area is smaller. So, there's 238 ft less coverage in that regard. Um, and with the fence being installed on top the coastal bank, uh, I think it might be because of the erosion, uh, which we're hoping to address later this
evening. Uh, it was installed further back, um, which cut into the planting area on that side of the property. Uh, and more mitigation was added instead in the area around the driveway lawn.
Uh we believe that this is still in substantial compliance and we hope you guys do. Usually we go to talk about the CC. Yeah, I think the CC is all set. Um forgot to look for ongoing conditions.
So I'm looking for any that reply now. with ongoing condition 13 which is just an upper strip of mitigation being maintained and not disturbed in the future but with the left the decrease in hardcape I think the CC is all set
to accept the CC question yeah I can barely hear your ears microphone. Okay. Well, I'll go ahead
motion seconded by Pat. All in favor of acceptance. Yes. Okay. So, we're halfway done. Um folder if there's two pages we just send the top one down.
Okay. Yes. Okay. We go on to uh SC32495 property land management for land advisory over I'm sorry I mispronounced that 27 years road proposed installation
of fire repair for existing patio relocation expansion of existing steps and new front area subject to coastal flooding coastal bank coastal beach and the buffer zone of the salt wash. Good evening again. Um, so on this
property there is a coastal bank that is deeply sloping and it's starting to be scoured by wave activity. Um, and that's undermining the stability of the upland area, including a patio with a fire pit on it. Um, to address this, we want to install a fiber roll array um, as well
as nourishment and plantings on that bank. Um during the installation the existing steps going down the bank will have to be removed because they are in grade uh so replacing them with a elevated stairway
um and the replacement of some of the patio that is either sloping because of the erosion that we're talking about or maybe damaged while we're installing the um fiber roll. um mitigate required for any proposed
renewal replacement hardscape um for the town of the ARF wetland regulation 6.02. Uh so we propose mitigation in between the fence and the top of the bank. Um not on the landlord side of the fence where mitigation was previously used for
the uh landscape work permit that we just talked about. understand what happened. Do you have any questions? Anybody have any questions? Question. Um I was not able to see uh this
specifically. I was just concerned about that, the two oak saflings, but the cable lever cherry to be renewed. Um would that be brings to kind or what are we looking at there? Um so
we proposed three cherries um in one of the mitigation areas. Uh yes. Um that was also based on the regulations which I believe called for a cow per inch thing. Um per inch replacement. Uh so estimating that it was about a 7 in cherry. It might be in one of these
pictures. It's kind of growing out sideways in the bank. It's pretty much the only like full tree that avoidable. Yeah. was shown on page four of our land management plan. We have it circled there in red so you can see that it's pretty much leveraged all the way out
over the beach and it Yeah. Um with the the fiber roll um you're proposing planting, right? Um yes. So the nourishment will have beach grass and a couple of other things
on top of it. Um I think we have at the list there. I can't remember all the species off the top of my mind. Um yeah, American beach grass, spike grass, grass, seaside, golden rod, and salt directly on the
Okay. So then I I also saw that you have the gold nourishment. So I guess I'm wondering how that's going to work to be adding if there's plants there. Hopefully with this planting fully established, we recognize
that um you know, not all that sediment is going to be really held in place by a whole lot. So if we have storm cycle, tide cycle, something that might remove some of that, then we need the ability to be able to replenish or replant accordingly. That's really where that
that piece of it comes into play. [Music] Now it's green. Okay, now it's green. Are you finished? I'm sorry. I believe so. Did I answer that question? Okay. Thank you.
I have a question about the kayak rack. Are you taking it or are you moving it? Uh we are not proposing any change of it. I make a comment that it it was a very thorough and um really good site plan showing everything on one sheet and all
the lo and listings and it's just good to see something like that. It's very good drawing. Well, Dylan, anybody else? Anybody in the audience has anything to say about this particularbody
on Zoom? Anybody? No. Okay. Sorry. What about you? Um I just didn't see I don't know if you had in there um that just the nourishment. You just need to bring
analysis before you do the nourishment so we can ensure compatible sand. And I just add that as a special condition. Perfect. Um, I know you have monitoring in there. Um, and so annual monitoring as well. We'll usually have that due in November. Perfect. That's all. Thank you. Actually, I have a question for the
board. Um, you um I sometimes are doing this, sometimes aren't. Are you writing in your orders the allowance for um maintenance of naturalized areas to be an ongoing condition? You are in the certificate of compliances. Thank
you. Yeah. Perfect. Okay, great. Thank you. Okay. Certainly. Yes. I'm all set in the commissioner. I hear any motion to accept. All in favor?
[Music] Okay. Second. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. 832494 Kron Engineering for RJ Resorts Bluewater Resort Owner 291.
Excuse me, sir. Sorry. Sorry. SE83 242 2482 Ryder Will Cox with Dave McConey 27 Gris Mill after the fact for unflated patio retaining walls and
Phil within the flood zone and buffer zone for assault launch. Introduce yourself and thank you. Um David Little from Ryder and Wilcox and Scott Facowski the um general contractor for the site.
So, we went out to the site just uh a week and a half ago and updated the site plan to show the existing conditions on the site as Scott has um pretty much restored it as far as the
grades are concerned back to its original uh configuration. We we also provided you with photos of the site so you can see how it um how it looks now.
And we on the site plan we have included proposed mitigation for the entire front yard which will constitute 1580 square ft for the 642
square ft of patio wall and steps that were constructed on the site. So, we're um well in excess of the 2 to1 that's required for here and
the as you can see the um the site plan kind of reflects what is Britney is showing you in the pictures right now. So, I am in receipt of Britney's recommendations and I'll turn it over to comments and questions. Thank you very
much. [Music] couple. Um, just I want to make sure that first thing knows there should be no more work allowed until the final approval of the plan. It seems to be working even though
we've asked them not to. So, please let him know. I will convey that to the owner as well as Scott who is doing the work. Okay. Um you say the grade was below the the lower the curb part of the grade is
going to be below the curb there. Before Scott started the work there was um cobblestone curbing the wall and he removed that and he built the 3-ft high wall. He would move the wall down to the height of the approximate height of what
the cobblestone curving was. Okay. So, um, does that answer your question? Well, I just want to make sure that it doesn't go over the Okay. So, the water works way down if it's the curve, not the road. Right.
Okay. Absolutely. Please. Um yeah, I did just you know I sent um David Little the list of here of special conditions so it wasn't going to be overwhelming during the meeting. Um so he has all these but we can go over them. You want to go you want me to go over them? You want to go over?
No, go ahead. Okay. Um we say we planting wars. Understood. Okay. Um we uh we immediately uh clean up like a property that's within
within the 50 ft and should be stored outside the 50 foot proper and um we want the patio work in the back to be shown on the plan other than 100 ft. I guess there's work being done in the back of the that right?
Yeah. So it says the whole site is within the flood zone. Um this will be our plan of record. You want everything on site to be shown and so that it will be permitted. So any work in the future is not confusing. Got it. And technically Mil Creek is not this
portion is not river in this area. I don't believe that's that's I you know like Stephanie did a project just south of here. it was and it she was told it was riverfront. So I put I I put a riverfront boundary
on it in approximate mean high waters. So I'll be happy to remove that. I don't it doesn't impact this project. Um but I don't think that this part of Mil Creek. So I'll I I have all the um the listed corrections that you're asking for on the plan. I will remove
that. Okay. I'm happy not to be working with anything else. Does the commission have anything else? Yes. Anybody else have anything? Anybody in the audience? Yes.
Good evening. John public. I live next door at 81 Bristol. Um there are a couple of points of contention that I do have. Um, one, yes, I will agree that there was a cobblestone border,
uh, which was not set in cement. Um, go over, pull it out. Um, and then the, um, three foot wall is built significantly impacting the distribution
of water during high super high tides and and large storms. Impacting my property. um increasing the erosion there. Um what's in there now is not that three
inches. It's approximately 6 in above at least. Um, as you can see from that picture, I had sent um the conservation office pictures in the past of the Google Earth prior to
all of this book being done and it will show you the significant difference in the grading. Hey, sorry. I don't have those up in the file at the moment. That's really frustrating. Um, however,
um, when we did the reconstruction of the house at 31 West Lane, we came in front of the board multiple times for approval. We were not allowed to put any um
boundary edging at the edge between our property and the street, which we were happy to comply with. My feeling is that if we needed to comply with this, everybody needs to comply with this. Otherwise,
why have regulations? Um, as such, I know everybody wants to improve their house. We don't have an objection to that, but it should not have an impact, a negative impact on our property right
next door. Are you to the left or the right when you're looking? We are to the left. We were closest to the marsh. Thank you. Uh what is that existence? I mean that slope the picture that was on the screen.
Yeah. tremendously originally. It's completely different slope than what was there prior to any of this work being done because I think that slope is indicated correctly and I'd like to see a section
through it. It's a significant slope and and I don't believe it's shown adequately on this plan. I see the two contour lines which indicate a foot difference.
I believe that is more than a foot. Um, so there's a 4 foot there's a 4ft contour though you may be correct. So there's a 4ft contour immediately the street side of the granite curbing.
You see that? and the six foot con and then there's a six-foot contour and then there is an eight foot contour um up by the patio. I can I can make that clearer on the revised plan.
There was there was a smaller patio up by the house. This is obviously larger um and and we're and we're proposing to to mitigate for the larger patio, but I don't with respect to um
well the planning plan will address any runoff from our site from storm water but with respect to the um land subject to coastal storm flowage. I don't think that the curbing that we have there will
cause any more reflective wave energy than the cobblestone curbing that was there originally. And it's it's just that the table you're not living there. You saying what? He's not living there and doesn't see
the daily effects of that. Like last night's weather coming in with the high tide coming in and being over not going up onto Mr. McCron's property or plumbing down onto ours. Yeah, I just have a couple of questions.
So this is this is unpermitted work originally and the contour of the front yard the the slope of the front yard was changed uh let's say within that unpermitted effort right okay so that was changed
and also the the cobblestone edging was taken out the wall was built and now the wall was taken down with the exception of the first course of brick so I wonder why it seems to be the the butter is
saying that those changes which again were unpermitted have adversely impacted the property. Therefore, I'm trying to understand why I wouldn't
um say that it seems that this should revert back to the original contour and the original curving. so that these types of things uh could theoretically be rectified.
So that can be done. It would be going from a 6-in granite curve to a 4 in cobblestone curve. Y it would require a significant amount of work. But if that's what the commission requires, well, it's not what the commission is saying. what I I see, you know, my own
personal um attributions. I I I don't know really, maybe I need help with this. I don't know what the 2-in difference is contributing to in terms of what the gentleman is saying uh as far as um uh difficulties with his with
the flowage and so on and so forth in his property. I'm not sure I understand why that it seems to me that more of the grading would contribute to some sort of a difficulty. Well, as you can you can see his car parked in this. That's his car. Yeah. So, that grade matches an existing grade on his driveway. Yeah.
So, we're not if the water comes up, we're not creating um a we're not creating a new adverse impact to his to his property. I if if the commission feels that 2 in of curving
um is going to be is going to cause a significant reflected wave energy from land. So be it. It is only a little bit. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem. Is the problem that with the with the wave energy or with the runoff off of
the off of the bridge? I think the problem is with the neighbors. Yeah. We can't we can't do so much about we're not going to discuss that. Excuse me. Not going to debate the neighbor. I understand where you coming from. Yes. Yes. Please
do. You can see that. We can see how the grade is consistent. It is not finished. Yeah, I I hope I make myself clear. I mean, I'm not saying I understand um
you know, again, the curving whether that's the the culture in terms of what the gentleman is saying or the degrading. Um it seems like there is some problem and you know I think it would have to be made clear whether it's because of this project or because of
something else. There's always been a problem. Um and that the grade on his property was was raised up significantly when he came before you to construct the new drone to match our grade.
All right. Very quickly in the picture I I have a picture here. It looks like is that a temporary erosion control measure at the foot of the stairs? The Yes, it is. What What is the What's the permanent
detail there going? Can I look at which picture? It's up. I have it up. Yeah. Those are little pieces of fiber rolls that were just there temporarily. permanently. What what it'll be
cobblestone. Um I'm also not sure though how much of an impact 2 ines on the the curb is going to have flooding in general. Um, just looking at this picture though, it doesn't seem to
be, you mentioned earlier that it was it was it's at grade with the neighbor's property. It doesn't seem to be at grade. So, I'm going to echo um Ellie's comment earlier of seeing some sort of cross-section um so we can better
understand that. That's the common property line right there. It it still seems like it's at a higher height. Can we eliminate the rest of the timber wall and meet the grade on the front? Not to have this hump, but to smoothly grade at
an elevation lower than the curving to eliminate some of that grade at the front. You can pull out the entire timber wall. Yeah, the entire tim wall and lower the grade. Um I I think just based on
Britney, you said you had provided some comments for um a plan. I think I would want to see that approved plan before. Yeah. So what I um provided was that we needed this plan
We just see a mitigation table showing the ratios and how we need it. Label of the butter show the grades on the patio and the front curb. Um graphically showing the patio in the back as well and including plant quantities doesn't
affect the permitting much but there since it is a dead end street um the buffer zone to the marsh might curve upward on the side um on the south side. There's marsh across the street. There was also marsh at the dead end over here. So it may change the buffer lines
a little bit. Um and then the special conditions we do need. This is insufficient erosion control. As you can see the loose sediment is going into the roadway. So we need the sediment to be cleaned up immediately and sufficient erosion control installed. Uh general
construction equipment needs to be stored outside of the 50 foot buffer and anything with an engine needs to be stored outside the 100 with no refueling within the 100. And the full seeding and planting should be completed this fall to reach
stability since we have exposed sediment and annual monitoring reports for the mitigation planting. That's what I'm over that is I gone through that's a lot of things. Um but we probably just need to see a revised plan once more in the
hearing before approval. That's fine. So um and what I've done in other situations like I would seed the little boost then through biodegradable map. Yeah. Yep. Within that mat. Perfect.
That's satisfactory. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Um I'm presuming you had the owner had discussions with a neighbor where there's very and they discussed what's good or bad about it. One of them
was taken with um I would think that before you come back there should be discussion with your neighbor and his understanding of what's being done proposed by you. that my book we are not here to resolve the issue between the
two neighbors. We're going to follow the rule. I don't think that I would like to see a disagreement next time. I all I can do is Oh, I understand
to the owner. Yeah. But and I will do that. Mr. for us. Lastly on your project narrative, you may want to make this last sentence. It isn't really a good sentence where you say the grade of the front yard was
returned to the original configuration put in parentheses more or less. That's just trying to be honest. But um yeah, I hear you. back. So, yeah. I have to be honest, I have a hard time
with the curbing. I'd like to see the curbing remove I like to see the neighbors on both sides do not have curbing. Um, and often the water has to go somewhere getting the curbing and it's going to the neighbors. So,
personal reference is just to have the the curbing we needed. When I was there, I was the first thing I thought of. So that's another thing. Well, could we restore it to the cobblestone curving that originally existed? You have pictures of that. Um,
yeah, you can see that there's a granite room here, but we don't have any photos, I'm sure. How high was the original cobblestone? Cobble. They're not the regular cobble. I have some
but should that have been originally permitted put in sorry um public comment is only available when the chairman request apologize can you say again we don't have some original ones that can match those original ones
about three inches is that reason no more like a 4 in I can bring one in and show if you can just let know the difference in in height. Okay. So, it's not that much difference in height as that. Okay.
I actually I think there was some pictures the first with a cobblestone next to that. I can provide you a picture picture. There's cobblestone right in front of the existing
that exists so you can see the difference. Well, I understand there was cobblestone earlier, but uh since you're redoing the whole yard, I'm still like to see no cobble no nothing there except for what's in the other both sides of uh
both houses. I see further down there. It's right to the street and I'm sure the left it is too. I'd like you to explore that. You prefer vegetation right to the street? Yeah, I would. That's I'm just talking
to myself, not for the commission. I I we would talk to the owner. Okay. Thank you. So, we're going to vote to um continue this. Okay. Thank you. Like for continuing. Would you like two weeks, which means you have
to have the plan to us in one week or more time? I'd like more I'd like four weeks if that's September 18th. Excuse me. September 18th. Ask again. Anybody else in the audience?
Anybody on Zoom? Appreciate your comments and appreciate the opportunity. Okay. Thank you. A motion to continue. Jack. Second. Second. All in favor of September 18th.
Yes. I Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you. My coffee [Music] doesn't get signed. That's
right. [Music] Next order of business is SE83 KO engineering for RJ water owner LLC 291 and 301 SE 832493 JM O'Reilly and Associates for Irene
Holmes. One parsonage point proposed above grade stairs in the buffer zone to a border bordering vegetative wetland and the natural heritage habitat. And I believe we got everything in. Yes, Natural Heritage issued their
comment letter and had no notes and gave a note takeake. They'll still need a variance from ZBA, but um you found that out today. Yes. So did I. I tried to tell you as soon as I could. It's
all right. Appreciate the heads up. Um, do we need I I don't know. Do you have anything to add? No, I don't. We were waiting for the natural heritage. I think the commission was pretty much satisfied with their review at that point. So, um, if I was just um wondering if you
could do a revised plan to just fix the the 50oot buffer line. You asked me to do that. That's all. Um, but I'm all set with the project as proposed. I'll get you that revised plan tomorrow. Just one copy. It's fine.
Okay. Uh, anybody have a comment here from the commission questions? Anybody in the audience? Britney, I'm all set. Thanks. And anybody on Zoom? I don't see anybody. Okay. Uh, can I
hear a motion to um accept plans? Paul, second, Jack. All in favor? I. Anybody opposed? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you everybody. Thanks Irene. Give me one minute to organize myself.
Okay. That page. Okay, we're at SE 832492 down Cape Engineering for Natasha and Oliver Bmpst 88 and 100 mil lane proposal to establish a farm with
fencing in the riverfront area and subject to coastal storm flowage and buffer zones to coastal bank salt marsh and bordering vegetated wetland. And if we could focus just on
questions from last week and we don't need to hear everything over again. Sounds good. I'll try and be brief. Um for the record, Dan Ojel, I'm a surveyor and civil engineer with Down Cape Engineering Yarmouth Port. Uh with me is Leo Kakunus who is a a farmer,
well-known farmer on the Cape and familiar with the agricultural right to farm regulations and and so forth if there are any questions of him. Um so um I I think um we went over with some detail uh the plans. Um since the last
meeting um uh we had some revisions to make to the plans. So I'll concentrate on those. I think they are uh mainly uh responsive to your requests. Uh you know we've got the um a few different resources here. There's the wet wetlands
which are delineated. Um and um also there's a technical dry resource area which is a coastal bank which occurs at a flood zone. Um I would like to stress that that coastal bank is is the middle of a pasture. It's barely more than 10%
grade. It doesn't look like a coastal bank. It doesn't act like a coastal bank. It would be more like a a less than 10% where you've got a slope where the flood waters will come up and just recede again. You know once in a 100redyear event. um uh coastal banks of course you're very concerned if there's
sediment sources if you armor them they can starve a downgradient beach there's none of that here this is adjacent to vegetated wetland it's super stable it's been cleared uh since before the turn of the century and it's uh been maintained in this pastural setting just as it is
uh in excess of what is it 35 years or so now so um it's it's a technical resource area yes but is it particularly sensitive I would argue Uh not really. Um we've submitted um a revised farm plan
which we think is responsive. There's some at the very end some questions uh answered uh to the best of our ability. Um I did speak with the uh the new um health director u Barry Lewis and um informed him you know that as we put in
our in our narrative we'll be filing with them um for the stable permits and so forth afterwards. And uh he knew all about the hearing. he was interested in how it would go tonight. And um he said his focus would of course be on the manure management, compost management um
and um and so forth. And so I told him that yeah, you know, we we've uh of course concentrate on that. We're using the best management practices uh that are available from the the Mass Department of Environmental Protection, the Food and Agricultural, uh the UMass
Extension Service, the USDA, uh NRCS, and uh and the and the EPA. And all of those uh items are are covered. Uh there's a table that how Good Hope Farm is complying. Again, these are sophisticated farmers. They've been
doing this for years in New York. And um I'm gonna interrupt you. I just really want and we already know the history of there in New York and all that. Can we just focus on the changes? Yeah. So, um what we did um was uh we noted that there would be um we moved
the composting area that I was just discussing um a little bit closer to the barn. Um it's set on an angle so that the water will run to the north away from uh the shellfish area which is to the southwest. And um uh what we'll do
is um um subject to a revised plan or condition, I'll show a little driveway to that. And we're going to pitch it so that it it it angles more towards uh the east than the west. Um, that is important because right now it could technically get down the driveway and and flow to the west where there is a
small pond and and and a little ditch that uh was dry today, but you know during and even after the inch of rain or so we had last night, but uh during a larger event could carry um sediments under the uh under Mil Lane and towards the um the shellfish area. So, it's very
important to us uh as good citizens and probably to this commission and certainly the board of health who looks at the manure management that all that uh is kept away from that area. So, um we'll ensure that that's the case. Again, it's a covered roof. We're happy to put a condition gutters and downspouts to a drywall on that. I think
that was a suggestion of one of the neighbors and it's a good suggestion. So, we'll comply with that. And um we have um on on Britney's um request uh worked up a sketch for um a koer log and a burm swale detail. So I'll just hand
these out. Um it's just a little addendum sketch. I think a picture is just sometimes helpful. So I'll hand these out. Is that located in his hand? We haven't had it yet. He brought it with him tonight as in
response to questions I submitted this week to help him prepare for the hearing. And is this for erosion control? Is this temporary? Oh,
I just was waiting to speak into the mic. Yes, I understand. Sorry. Yeah. What we'd intend to do with this is um um all along where you've got the green fence uh which is downgradient of the main pasture. Um put this everywhere and
a lot of you know there's some places that have 20 foot buffers, some have 10, some have, you know, less. So we but regardless we thought as a good compromise to either a larger buffer or or or or that sort of thing we'd create this and it would be permanent. It's a
highdensity coral log. Um and it's half buried and then we're going to put lom and seed and mound up over it. So you'll get instant protection from a coral log. It's it's semi-pervious, so it'll allow some some waters to move through, but it generally traps in at least a 6-in high
swale all along there uh any runoff from the pasture lands. And again, we're doing all the BMPs. We're moving the the food stations, you know, as far from the fence and um you know, maintaining a healthy healthy healthy uh pasture land. But um we feel that this burm and swale
will uh assist in infiltration and uptake of nutrients prior to entering the buffer. So we'd offer to do that everywhere down gradient of that fence on the whole east side there and even against the salt marsh on the
north side. Um with respect to the rivers act um that was a question that was recently posed I think yesterday or today. Um there's small drainage ditches and intermittent streams on locust. They do not rise to the levels of uh rivers under the act.
The small farm pond is mostly dry right now. The ditch only has a few spots of water in it. No flow even after last night's heavy rain. There's uh simply no way this short drainage ditch could be considered a river under the act. None of the ditches are mapped as blue lines on the USGS quad maps. That means
they're perennial streams. That's generally then the burden of proof on is on us to prove that they're not uh rivers. But here uh we do not have that burden of proof and they all have just very limited drainage areas. I inspected the culvert today was nice and clean. Um
the upstream end was was open. downstream on Water Street had a natural siltation line of about 50%. Uh but uh we were able to hear noise through it as clean as a whistle. Uh we can maintain that uh anytime that is requested.
Um and um again uh the focus of the board of health uh will be on manure management. We can go in with more specivity on that, but I think you've heard our pitch on that. Um, and I don't want to belabor any of these points. Um,
again, there was a couple letters of support. You know, some of the poor neighbors had been uh they they, you know, somewhat uh nervous about saying anything because of the the uh crowd mentality, but uh that's unfortunate, but this will be a great farm. It has been a great farm. Um, we feel that with
the measures shown, the BMPs, it'll continue to be a historic looking and and gorgeous property, well-maintained, no smells, no odors. the owners live there. They're not uh interested in having any nuisances and uh care more about the environment than than than
most people. So, I'll leave it at that and uh Leo can answer questions if you have them on the act and the right to farm. Uh and uh we'll be looking forward to a positive review and move on to the health department for their their review. Thank you. Anybody on the commission have questions
or comments? just have a a general question. Um, mention something. Yeah, I think it might be good. Um, I just have a general question. Um, you know, it's funny because when I went to school, there was this one book
called Design with Nature by Ian Mccar. And how there's always this this um we want to get back to the original state of what this property was. And I just want to know in your professional opinion um it was a farm before and it and and I
don't want to put words in your mouth but it looks like you tried to do minimal impact to what it was before. You tried to work with that. Am I correct in saying that? I think that's 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Just about 100% accurate. Uh there
was a a very professional wetland science scientist that did the original analysis and and laid out the pastures and maintained the original clearing line. The photographs go back to the 30s. This is all cleared farmland and uh in the 80s they found it proper to put the fences right where they are today.
Uh from 2012, you know, this I think I had held up before is the beautiful farm property exactly as it is today and exactly as we want to maintain it. The only differences will be very subtle BMPPS tipping the grade here and there and shifting it um so that we don't
impact no management back. So well not not as much but again this is an agricultural use and it's pretty there's not very many impervious areas. We're fine to have all gravel driveways if you want to make that a condition. Um, uh, Leo had mentioned and just
wanted to pop in there that, uh, in his his professional opinion, uh, leaving that, uh, kind of a it's it's on a it's a private well. The irrigation system doesn't draw from the town water, but just to maintain that, uh, the the the buffer is even right up to the fence is pretty important because if you get a
big drought like it is now, well, could you just say a word or two to that, Leo? Um, it it was a question on whether we should maintain the I'd like you to keep it short, Leo, if you keep it very short. uh don't don't mandate that the sprinkler system be removed is completely against not only best
management practices but any common sense. The whole idea of having a really nice healthy pasture, green grass, nice thick grass, is because that is going to absorb a lot of the nitri and it's going to also prevent runoff
and heavy commission talk about getting well it was in it was in one of the correspondents the the discussion about removing the sprinkler system from the pasture. And I just want to draw your attention to all over the Cape. We had a very very dry summer. I even have the situation on my farm where I have areas
now that are that are just dust because the grass has died. You don't want that. So I I would caution you if you're thinking of that. I'm sorry. Do you say are you saying that you you advocate for the use of the irrigation and sprinkling system?
Absolutely. Okay. Dan made a comment about how it doesn't that the water doesn't come from the town um supply, but it does, doesn't it? Doesn't it all come from the same aquifer? No. Well, to to to just to clarify on that point through the chair, um it's an
irrigation well that's on the property that draws. Um that is a separate aquifer from the zone twos. Is it the same general groundwater? Yes. So, I mean, we're kind of semantics here, but we're not taxing the town's water system. It's only uh drawing from the the site.
Yeah. I guess it's just because it's a kind of sensitive issue right now, you know, because I know that if you have a um a private well, you you can irrigate your lawn, but if you don't, there are restrictions. So, I I wondered how that applied to this particular situation. That's an excellent point. And in
periods of drought, having an on-site well is very important. And it's a big aquifer and uh there's plenty of capacity here. We've never had a problem. Okay. Thanks. Anybody else in the commission? um like you want to
Well, I commend your coming up with your more detailed uh farm plan. I think that uh I'd like to see as you add more specifics about uh the rotations of and
uh application of chemicals or the irrigation systems are using. would like to know what that is so that we understand the impact on the erosion and and the way the uh chemicals go off the farm.
Uh so that's my number one is we could go down the current things that you have here them but I think there's not enough detail to really discuss them like irrigation or other kind of things. So
if uh that falls Britney under our to request the farm plan changes and more detail over the years is we can do that. You want more detail from the plan that they provided last week.
Well, not necessarily right now because they probably won't have the answers updates. Yeah. Well, I think we'd be happy to provide it. I'm talking about each best management practice and how you're going to apply it, the specifics of the schedules, the
uh kind of chemicals you're using. I don't think you have those kind of things and I'd like to see as you develop those farmland that it yeah it's I mean there's general statements they're they're very low uh
pesticide or or or or use and the fertilizers we try and just use the carefully composted organic and that's fine. I'm just asking that uh as you bring on your goats which are you're proposing 30 now
and you I guess are you thinking of going back up to your 40 or do you know what your top level would be? These are the questions that I would like to see as they change and uh get answers to those. So you're talking kind of like
So you're kind of requesting just a an update or updates in more detail as you go along. That's what I'm asking for. So you you'd be requesting a special condition for annual updates on farm management.
Annual. I think that um that would be up to your professional what what you think is enough to really be able to say here's what I'm doing with rotations. for instance, the type of fencing. Are you moving fences? It looks like you're not. Um, so forth and so on about each
of the practices. I I think a condition that we update the commission with significant farm changes as they occur would be would be fine. Um, if you want to put every two years or significant change, I think that would be fine, too. Um, Natasha is a
good noteaker, so I don't think that would be overly burdensome. Mr. Chair, um, wait a minute. Jack, you have something else? Yeah, you have a list of compliance and filings. Uh, for instance, farm stands
and events and things like that. Um, I don't think we can, this is our out of our purview, but for instance, archaeological sites and uh, if you find anything like that, you that should be a
part of that list. uh road use traffic. I'd like to somebody in the town is going to want to know how many trucks and in Barnstable I may add because you're going to go over in Barnstable County. So, I see that this is a big issue that you should put on your list
there that uh where you when you run into a problem, increase traffic, you're going to go to the appropriate people to uh in town, both towns to get changes to permits or whatever it takes.
You are right. That's outside our purview, Jack. I'm sorry. You're right. That's outside our purview. No, I know. But it's in the farm plan and you've listed it and so I'd like to see that list a little bigger. That's all that you are aware of those.
Yeah, we we'll comply with all all regulations pertinent to a farm use, commercial farm that you list at least those I've mentioned, if not more. Well, um I'm not sure they need to list them. want to I'm not I'm not sure we we have the
right to ask them to do things that aren't in our purview but but while we were on fertilizer um I was just still unclear in the current submission. Are you proposing to use the compost on the pasture or only in the
raised beds? Um would we use a little bit on the pasture as well? The nice compost. you felt it was helpful to maintain the posture but not as a practice regularly. You know if there's a uh you should probably speak in the mic
Natasha for the record and say who you are. So mostly for great Hi everybody. Natasha Brmps I have no current intention of doing that but if there is for example an area that we want to add nutrients to in a small
amount we might do that rather than using synthetic nutrients if you know what I mean. But no, that's not the intention. It would be in the flower growing area and excess would be okay. Taken off the property. And in your farm plan, you said that um you'd be testing the soil every 3 years.
And is that in the pasture as well or just in the flower? That is that is in advance of Yes. Anywhere that we would be adding it, we would be doing that to make sure it was necessary if needed. Yes. Thank you. Let's wait to close the door so we can
hear you. Oh, [Music] okay. Go ahead. A question through you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Frost mentioned chemicals and the addition of chemicals. I hope I want to clarify this irrigation system is not a chemagation system. I mean I'm not
sure if that's where he was headed with that. I just want to clarify it because on my farm I have an irrigation system that I inject my pesticides, my fertilizers, my herbicides through that system. This is not that case at all.
This is just a conventional homeowner if you will style irrigation system. And from what my understanding is though, they're going to upgrade the system so that it has a water sensitive um uh reaction on it. It's kind of like one of the houses I take care of where, you
know, it's certainly dry. It Yeah, it'll it'll come on. If it's raining out, it it won't come on. That kind of thing. But but it's not a chemagation system. I just wanted to make that clear. Yeah, that's important. When it's not triggered, is that set to set up to water every day?
No. So, just whenever Anybody else in the commission? Yeah, I just a the final comment from me. I think that um the applicant has gone through all of the concerns and has
presented a nice farm plan. And I think that thinking about what uh Jack has said here, um we're all subject to um questions with all of our property if we do something that's um tends to or
looks to be um problematic. And so that would apply also to this property and all of our properties. So I think that it seems as far as I'm concerned all the eyes are dotted and tees are crossed in terms of the establishment of this
enterprise in in that location and I wish them everybody a lot of luck with it and certainly if there's a concern it will be discussed at the appropriate level in the future. So,
thank you for bringing this to us and thank you for doing all the work that would um result in the establishment the reestablishment of a very nice um farm. We appreciate those words and uh you you'll be well served by these people. I
I'm sure of it. Go ahead. I just want to echo that. The best management practices matrix that you did was was excellent. I I don't know um what else you could have could have done. all of the resources and references and um and then I think you know it's good to keep in mind that this
this project you will go in front of um preservation for the fence and all that. I mean there's different reviews that will happen that are out of our purview and and so it's a comprehensive review but from a conservation standpoint it's it's just a very very exciting project.
Yeah. I just want to say that I appreciate you moving the uh manure composting area and turning it. I think that's that's that was one of the concerns. I have a few others that uh I want to bring up. Um according to NRCS,
there should be a 15oot buffer between the between the um wetlands and the fence. And uh but uh now that you've presented this log burm swale detail, I think I have to sit with Britney and
understand whether that your own opinion whether that takes the place of of that of the 50 15 foot buffer. Um unless you have a comment now on it. I don't want to put pressure on you, but I I'd prefer more time to review
something received the same day. Um okay but definitely it was noted that you're following these list of BMPs but one of them is maintaining a healthy vegetated buffer and the minimum distance cited in one of those was that it would have to be 15 ft and and the vegetated buffer
that exists is between 2 feet and 10 ft around um which doesn't meet it in most locations and with a you know mildly conservative bumpout with some mild planting and allowance for some some native of pasture grasses to be matured
instead of mowed. I think a buffer could get could go a long way for water quality. Um, and for comfort, having this pasture so close to the wetland with just a small vegetative buffer. I do I appreciate you thinking of the storm water with the burm and swale.
They could work together. I don't know if one takes the place of the other. Um, but both are appreciated and both were listed in the BMPs. I also want you done. Go ahead. Okay. Um, let's see. Sorry, I read all the
letters. Um, especially the ones that were written between last meeting and this meeting. Um, and I do have a couple questions or comments about that. Um, number one is why manure only every three days? Does irrigating affect the
impact of the water runoff? So, um, that's a question I have. I don't know if you have an answer for that or you want to What's the question, sir? I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. Why the manure, uh, um, picking up a manure every only three days? Does
irrigating affect the impact of the water runoff? In other words, you have you have stuff down there and then you're you're irrigating? What's is it You want to answer it now? You want the answers right now? Well, I I'll I'll take a crack at it. What what I would
say is that when we irrigate these fields, we don't irrigate them enough to create runoff. It's just a, you know, a quarter inch at a time. Just a, you know, a gentle but steady um setting in. Uh if you have a down burst from a thunderstorm, that would be something which you'd expect to see a little bit
of sheet flow even off a turf lawn. But um the irrigation system simply doesn't generate that sort of volume that would would would carry in significant amounts. Uh and then um you know these are these are small pelleted uh and and we're keeping them up on the feed stations will hug the uh the upgradient
side. They usually you know poop where they eat uh away from the fence and uh between those two things and cleaning them up every few days. U the donkeys uh create just a little bit more but you know again they're because they're a little bit heavier and they have more of a horse type manure than the pellets.
But uh again those are are easy cleanup and um and we'll tend to them as needed. Again, these folks live here. They drive by every day. They don't want smells. They don't want odors. They don't want uh and so that's our guess as to a reasonable amount, but we'll certainly fine-tune it as needed. But I wouldn't
think that we'd get significant runoff from just a light irrigation on a healthy turf lawn with a small pelletized uh manure. Okay. Um let's see. um the vehicle access to the shed itself will is how if they want to move
the manure that's Yeah, we'll create a little driveway up to that shed uh that come peels off the existing barn driveway and and tips the grade and and sheets it uh to the east where we've got a pretty significant buffer and um you know depending on on how it works out. I I did notice Lynn
Hamlin is a very accomplished wetland scientist. she did the delineation prior to the recent one and she was a little bit more um uh gave us a little bit more generous a buffer. So when I was looking at my colored sheet from 2012 um you know um I think Paul pulled it in a
little bit uh in some places that he could have perhaps um shown a little bit more of a vegetative buffer. But um I don't know where I'm going with that except that uh you know we'll we'll we'll take a careful look at it and and work with Britney on a on a uh exact buffer uh thickness. I think with the
burm uh 10 ft it'd be absolutely plenty. Um maybe um we could leave it as is, but we'll certainly discuss it. All right. Um also, um I don't know what the proposed farm stands going to look like, but if there's any new buildings
proposed within our jurisdiction, you obviously have to come back to us, of course. Yeah. No Vista pruning. That's accurate. Without permission, uh no Vista pruning. Okay. And uh you've already answered my other question about the compost being mostly used in the
flower and veggie gardens and uh that's accurate. Yeah. Um let me just make sure nothing else here. Um I am wondering if if if in the weather forecast like there's I know surprise thunderstorms nobody can that's
why they're called surprise but if we know there's a big storm coming whether they should pick up the nor before that storm even it's within the three days that can we put that in as a condition you could act in as a condition but I will just tell you in reality and as
being a 35 year or 40year farmer here uh it's a lot easier to pick up freshly dropped dropped hard pelleted manure than it is manure or freshly dropped manure that has been rained on and it becomes wet and clumpy. So I even want to say that about the sprinkler system.
It's not going to be running daily. You had mentioned that we said we'd probably be picking up the manure every 3 days. I'm sure it's going to be coordinated with the time that the sprinklers go off. The sprinklers do not run during the day because the animals do not like getting wet from the sprinklers. So
they'll either run early morning or or late afternoon and that's going to give the owner time to go out and pick up the manure when they know that the sprinklers are running every Thursday say or every third day something like that. So I think it's very very easily managed. Absolutely.
Yeah. And they Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I I say and and and fully customizable to uh that if it's we have a wet spring, they wouldn't be going off at all. But uh you know if in a drought like this you know you're probably looking at every third day for sure. Okay. So the only thing outstanding for
me is the 15t buffer versus whether the burm swell takes the place of that or whether we can move the buffer back. But that's something Britney. It's not up to David. I I would something we'll talk about. Yeah. I would encourage the applicant to
consider whatever you're willing to propose and I think a buffer would go a long way in combination with the soil depending on how much pasture you're willing to plant. Um so I think a buffer would be greatly appreciated to be added where especially where it's zero or 2
feet to expand it in some fashion to create some sort of buffer where none or very small one exists. Um, and so we would I'm sure the commission would appreciate a buffer with the swale if it's really small or just a buffer. I'm not sure if they
Yeah. So, um, could we compromise on an 8ft reveated buffer where less than 10 and then you'll have more than 10 almost everywhere except then you'll have some eight-footers. Would that be reasonable to this? I mean, just to just to put a number on it, I think we could make that work
on all around 8 feet. Yeah, I would say on the on the wetland side. On the salt marsh side, um I think it's already 10. So, you know, that's that's all set out there. I don't think we'd be doing anything out there. Um but against that wetland where it isn't uh uh 8t
currently would make it 8t and uh would also install the uh the burm. Yeah, sounds great. Mr. Chairman, may I also add to that thought train of thought also? I think one of the first things I said when I came up to the mic uh two weeks ago or last week when we were here um that I've
been encouraging and I certainly hope that the town will encourage to work with the applicant on doing something with that uh freshwater wetland if you will where the Belgazikians had the trails going through there and had it quite maintained at some point and now
with the current um towns really across the Cape looking at going in there and doing reclaim aiming of those type of areas to create the right kind of buffer. My little bit of a concern is when we we just designate a 15- ft
planted buffer in 5 years from now that becomes an area for uh invasive species, things we really don't want. And it becomes I'm a big one for property needs to be managed. the concept of letting
nature take its course is I'm sorry we've already screwed with nature too much so that doesn't exist anymore. So I would just like the board to keep in mind that I believe and I will speak for the applicants. You're going to see them again. They want to do the right thing
and this is a perfect absolute perfect location for a reclaiming of a of a wetland area. I'm going through the same thing with a piece of property that I just donated to the tech school and we're looking at it doing two and a half acres in combination with a piece that the conservation trust is doing. So I
think things like that are going to definitely help and ease your concerns when you talk about the buffer around there. It's heavy fragmitees in a lot of it. Yeah. When you're done, right? Um,
I appreciate what has been said here about uh your overwhelming trying to uh keep the property natural in the way that you approach management
and that uh you're going to look out for the neighbors and everything you've mentioned is great and I think that it it's an onus on you because this is an iconic national treasure
place that people come over that bridge and they see what's happen you know the v vista and I have a long history with trying to get vistas recognized as a use which goes back to some of the early river basin efforts I've involved with
in the 70s and I think that uh what it does though put you on notice for what you've already tried to emphasize the kind of things that you're doing and will do better. But also that the neighbors and
the all the tourists that come through there know if they see anything you missed, they're going to notice it. And that includes you've got six or more possible future uses for this and
including your floral uh when you're talking about goats being you know get giving away or selling goats uh kids um using the goats for invasive uh plant management I presume you're
talking about to customers uh dairy operation the crearyy possibility and then you mentioned trails. You're talking about long-term uses that you're going to have to really uh have the world looking at
you including our town which is actually has defined in this bylaw your operation farming as commercial and you are jumping off into that combining the scenery with commercial
and that's a tough odor. Good luck. Yeah, thank you. It is one of the most beautiful properties and areas that I've ever been in and uh as a a lifelong resident it's it's just a treasure and uh couldn't ask for nicer people to run it. It's just uh I couldn't be happier
to be part of this. Thank you. Where's that where's that taken? This is from the corner corner probably from here looking at this
little wetland. So will do they need to resubmit a planned study can you walk us through the burm now or do you need to lay it out and would be yeah so so if you'd like to condition it you would have it along the along the
east side the green line along the east side all along the mode pasture all around um the uh the eastern wetland um I don't u believe would need it against the coastal bank on the north there you'd be disturbing soil I think unnecessarily because you've got a large
existing buffer and and uh it's very healthy very healthy turf over there but and it's a much smaller whed if you notice it's just a very like 40 ft of of of of pitched area so it doesn't have the volume that the swale would pick up on the around the bowl. So, um, it would
be, you know, you could say it's through flag A17, uh, down to the beginning. A17 is up at the lot line and it would follow all the way down to a flag A whatever 30 something on the the southeast corner would be, um, through
flag A34. Uh so if we u proposed a a swale from A17 through A34 along along that green I think that'll pick up you know the vast majority of the pasture lands that are pitching towards that wetland and again importantly not towards the shellfish
area which is to the west. Um and that would be would be happy to give you a revised plan showing that contingent upon um you know uh approval. Anybody else in the commission want to open it up to the public? I'll come back to you
afterwards. So So is that um are you going to show a buffer as well or just the swale? Well, and I understand I understand the concern about a buffer, but if they're having all these future plans, um you can still do a a forb and grass buffer
and, you know, have it be transitioned to natives once they start their native management plan for the wetland. I just think that I know there's a lot of vines and everything there, but roots are roots and if the more roots we can get in between the pasture and the wetland, the better. So, it's
I think if we keep the grapes and the fragmitees mowed back, we could maintain at a minimum uh an 8ft buffer. So, if there's an area, like you say, that's only 3 feet right now, we'll plant 5T and and and um and u then have the fence. So, we'd be happy to show that in
that same area as well on a revised plan. Okay. So, 8 foot minimum on that whole stretch from a uh the the little flags that I mentioned, A17 to A34. Um at a minimum, you'll have an 8 foot buffer plus the swale uh built into the
buffer and and maintained with natives. Um and that will help filter uh and I think, you know, we're we're I think we'd be happy to do that. Thank you. Okay. Um, we'll turn that over to people in the audience. Anybody have any
comments, questions? Let's I see a hand in the way back up here and tell us who you are and hi. First, I'd like to thank all of you for serving on this board a little bit more.
Is that better? Better. I have been in that neighborhood since 1978. Tell us who you are first. My name is Jean Young. Jean Young. The area was zoned residential when I
built there. The area was zoned in 1987 when the Belgians built and uh bought and built. When they sold the land and home in 19 I'm sorry, 2012, it was zoned
residential. That area has never been zoned as a farm. The Belzikians, when they sold it, advertised it as a quote gentleman farm. It was never used as pasture land on
that side of the road. The pasture land for the cow was on the other side of the road behind my house. That land has since been sold and two homes have gone up in that area. So, it has not become
less residential. It has become more residential. I don't think zoning's under our purview either. Zoning I can't hear you. I'm sorry. have nothing to do with zoning is what she's telling me. So, it has everything to do with what's been brought up in these meetings. I was at
the last one and I was at this one. I have heard it this piece of property referred to as farmland repeatedly. It has never been used as agricultural farm or industrial farmland ever. Ever going
back to 1600. There may have been some apple trees and pear trees in that time. And at the same time that you're talking about farming and how important it is for farms in that area which was brought
up in the last meeting. There is an oyster farm just at the mouth of u uh Mil Pond that is totally going to be destroyed by the runoff from everything that's going on on this land. Never mind the the
shellfishing that's going on across the street from where this farm farm is being put in. It's totally been misrepresented misrepresented what's going on in this area. It has not been a farm and the
people who bought it in in 2012 were never there. Never had a dog on the property, never mind other animals. So farm, no it is not a farm. I want to know when exactly it became designated
as industrial or agricultural or any other kind of land other than residential. That's my question. And I am angry, totally upset about what what is being represented here from, you
know, from Greg talking about being raised on the farm. He was in college when his parents bought that farm. And these, by the way, are all issues that were brought up at the last meeting. These are not things that I'm bringing up for the first time.
But we do you have a question? We we don't I don't have a question. No, I can just say to you that as far as zoning is concerned, that's something you can take up with the zoning board, but not with us. Well, I'm wondering why you are referring to it as zoned as a farm. Why
you are referring to it as a farm? I mean to be clear the application is to establish the use of the property as a farm. And if I could through the chair Jack I call you Frank all the time. Jack you have something.
Could I just ask the chairman referred to Commissioner Frost to speak? Us essentially your point is that this is an application for a new farm. This is an application for a new farm.
They came in originally that it was a farmland and historically and that they would like to prove it. But the bylaw for the town for
farm right to farm states that farming is commercial. So there was never any doubt from our viewpoint that this is a new farm and they meet the standards for it because and so until it's been established as a
farm, could we could we just please refer to it as something other than a farm because it's not a farm. It depends on who you're talking to. Yeah. People who want to put cows on goats and sheep and donkeys on it want anything else you want to say?
Can't hear you. Do you have anything else to add? I have a lot, but I understand that you only want to address things when I'm standing here at the podium that have to do with pollution. And I believe that this is a great risk for the existing oyster farm
that is at the mouth of um of the um of Mill uh Pond. Thank you. You're welcome. One minute. Not a report. you know, they they just requested that BMPs be followed to maintain water quality.
Um, yeah, and and just just to respond briefly, you know, and I understand there's a lot of passion over this, but this was uh the approval uh the request construct a barn and supported facilities for farm animals. This is approved by this board in in the early 80s. Um, you know, construct necessary
fencing around the open pasture areas to contain grazing animals within those areas. It's every single one of these is a farm use. It wasn't exactly hidden and they constructed a a beautiful thatched barn and had animals. There's photographs of the of the animals grazing on this field right here. So I I
I know memories can be selective, but you know there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Thank you. Think it's relevant really whether it was a farm or not because as well I don't like to be considered a liar. So there's a time limit in the last five years. Was it how many years? Five years.
Yeah, there's a limit, but it was a farm audience. Yes, please. Yeah. Good evening. My my name is Paul Fitzgerald. I live on Kevin Elaine on the Bonsible side of the bridge. Um, I wanted to address something that my wife
and I had retained Alen Wilson to review and make comments on the plans, the NOI, and the support materials filed by Natasha and Oliver Brams on the Mil Pond Creek LLC. Alen Wilson has submitted her full
thoughts and comments in a letter to the commission on 18 August. Alen cannot be here this evening because of a prior commitment. I'm going to highlight her comments as follow. Based on the information provided and not provided by the applicant, this is a
new agricultural product and must abide by both the state and town wetlands protection regulation. I know I'm not telling you anything, but this is her thoughts. The applicants have not requested a variance. To do so, they would need to show that the project
would improve the e ecological conditions over what exists, would not adversely affect any area subject to protection under your regulations, and are that the project provides an overriding public benefit, and there is
no feasible alternative to the proposed work. The applicants have not requested a variance because they cannot make those requisite showings. My concerns relative to the water quality have been addressed in the letter you received from Ali and Wilson
Associates and also covered by comments from other neighbors. I would like to insert a little bit of my own history here as Jack did when he spoke is that I was notified as an official abuter. I
believe I should have been as Howlet's Mill Pond directly abuts and influences my property. The tidal estate on the west side is affected every day by what flows from the pond with the tide changing twice daily. At certain high tides, which occur a few times each
season, the water rises up onto my lawn and has even spilled into my vegetable garden. This is not an abstract concern for me or my neighbors. It is where we live and how we live. I swim in the estuary from May through October, as do many of the Kevin Lane neighbors.
Families such as my next door neighbor, the Kitridges, often bring friends and schoolmates to jump from the bridge at high tide, riding the current into the pond, then floating back with the tide into the estuary and then all the way to the short walk on Water Street.
Fishing is seasonal and popular here, depending on what's running. Some of us on the comer side also shellfish in the pond as part of it lies within bodable. For these reasons, even though I was not formally notified, I feel it is
important to share how decisions made on the arm side of the bridge directly impact the quality of the pond, the estuary and bonsible harour and by extension the health and safety of those who swim, fish, shellfish and boat
throughout the year. Finally, anyone who has driven over the bridge knows the sound of the gulls dropping cohogs, muscles, and scolop shells to crack them open if the pond's outflow becomes contaminated by bacteria, closing the shellfishing and
swimming. But that will not stop the gulls or the contamination from spreading further into the estuary. This decision is sensitive and important. I ask you to be absolutely certain that the proposed goat farm will not have a harmful impact on the pond,
the estuary and the harbor. Any negative changes here would alter this environment and the way generations of residents from both Bonstable and Yamoth have used and enjoyed it. I simply urge you not to act on this proposal until you have a site plan that is detailed,
complete, and in full compliance with your regulations, which is the co which the current plan is not. Hands. Hello, my name is Paul Messier. I live on Thatcher Shore Road in Yarmouthport. Um, looking at the well, essentially
what we're talking about here, um, water quality and the protection of the water quality, it comes down to a risk assessment and that's seemingly what this commission Sure. Yeah. Um, what I'm what I'm what I
said was we're talking about a risk assessment here and I'm wondering what the standard for risk is. Looking at the um the documents that were compiled that are compiled online. There's um a letter
from um the Massachusetts Department of of Fisheries. And in that letter, it seems like the risk is absolute. that says no contamination. The plan has to ensure no contamination.
And I'm not sure I've heard anything here that eliminates the risk. And I'm wondering if that's the standard that's applied here. And um can we get an objective evaluation of
the risk that in fact the risk is zero notes? That's the I was taking notes. That's why I was looking down. I don't want you to think I was ignoring you. Anybody else? Yes, Mr. Chairman and members, Joshua Stain,
128 Water Street, right across the street from 88 Mil Lane. Thank you for listening. Despite the 75minute presentation, detailed feedback, and two weeks to respond, the applicant's NOI still violates numerous state and town
regulations. to help this commission do its legally required job. And for the record, I'd like to make some comments. First, the plan fails to protect wetlands and wildlife. Much of the fencing would be inside protected
riverfront, coastal banks, tidal lands, floodlands, and up against the wetlands edge with little to zero buffer, which we've heard tonight, and a steep drop off. This violates state wetland
regulation 310 CMR 10.02. 8 ft is not the minimum. The law states the buffer and no variance has been requested. Second, much fencing would be within the 35 to 50 ft no disturbance
buffer zone. Mr. O'Hala conceded that it's within 8 or 10 ft. The applicant has not explained why this won't cause a substantial adverse impact. This violates town wetlands regulation section 6.02.
The applicant hasn't addressed or even evaluated how its 4 and a half to 6 foot high metal welded wire and raised stone wall fencing, especially in buffer areas would obstruct the vital wildlife corridors that deer, otter, and other
wild animals use to move between this and abudding conservation land. This fencing would be far taller and less permeable than than past split rail fencing. And as the applicant said last time, quote, "The donkeys will kick the
teeth out of whatever bothers the goats, and these little suckers, the goats, can jump to other land." This failure and obstruction violate 310 CMR 10.022B2B. Fourth, the applicant hasn't provided any evidence showing why its alterations
should be allowed, how they meet the rigorous regulatory performance standards, why they won't have a significant adverse effect, and why no practical alternative with less aver less adverse effects exists. They haven't explored this and they are
legally required to under the regulations. This violates 310 CMR 10.58. Second, the plan poses unacceptable risk to water quality. Their plan would result in discharging of animal waste, pesticide, and fertilizer into water
resource areas, violating mass uh division of marine fisheries requirement of quote no runoff or animal waste or associated nutrients into nearby wetlands or waterways end quote. It also violates the town storm water
regulations ban on such discharges and it violates the town's wetland regulations ban on fertilizer such as manure within 35 to 50 ft of wetlands. And let me explain a little bit why. First, citing the shed on a high point
and letting 30 to 40 animals graze on downward sloping pastures would maximize illegal animal waste, pesticide, and fert fertilizer discharges and polluted runoff into wetlands. In 2012, Down Cape
helped document runoff across Mil Lane into Mil Pond and the hydraological link from 88 Mills wetland system through catch basins and an underground pipe to wetlands on the other side of Water Street. The plan currently as submitted
omits these conveniently. These interconnected water resources would spread contamination, not act as a BOF filter as Mr. Ahala represented. Second, the area's documented poorly draining soils, standing surface water, and
flooding of abudding lots would worsen illegal pollutant runoff. Picking up manure only three times per week would increase contamination runoff. What if it rains on no collection days? What if it rains very hard or there major
thunderstorms or hurricanes coming up the coasts with gale force winds? At the last hearing, the applicant said it didn't even know if Mil Lane's culvert works and whether its operations would further harm Mil Pond and its shellfish. Today, it appears and says it can hear
whistling through the pipe and somehow we're all supposed to be comfortable that that's adequate for not harming Mil Lane and its shellfish and adhering to a zero runoff standard set by the state and local regulations. Further, the state's design and location at top a
steep hill would leave zero room for error. It contradicts the very mass DFA fact sheet that the applicants themselves filed, which requires manure storage to be contained, impermeable all the way around, not just the floor, and
away from sloped lands. Given the area's high flood and wind risk, its roof wouldn't prevent storm water from flowing from the barn side, mixing with manure and running off down the hill. Manure facilities concrete pads, research shows, are well known to be
prone to cracks, particularly when the manure piles dry up during the wet, non-growing season, as the applicant said they would allow to do. Despite time to update their filing, the NOI's shed image still lacks even basic runoff
uh anti-runoff sloping gutters and settling basins. Mr. O'hala now says they'll do some of that. It's not in the application. As I noted, state and town regulations require no runoff. Saying there can be no runoff doesn't make it
so. Despite your request, the applicant still has not submitted legally adequate best management practices. Its new one-page chart names 12 different BMPPS, site sources that have hundreds of pages irrelevant to what they would do on this
land, and claims compliance by having one column citing reciting a few BMP buzzwords. The applicant's NRCS references, if you've looked them up, are to national standard documents that NRCS specifies on its website, quote,
should not be used to plan, design, or install a conservation practice, end quote. A legally compliant plan requires specific, engineered, enforcable strategies with timelines and monitoring to prevent harm to storm water, flood
control, and habitat. The applicant's plan lacks all of these. Finally, the fecal caulifform bacteria risk is substantial. The proposed animals would generate nearly half a ton of manure weekly with higher nitrogen
concentration than cows or horses. They will pollute legally protected areas with illegal bacteria and nitrogen pollution. The applicant's assertion that smaller waste is less hazardous is simply false. And despite claiming
extensive farm experience, they continue to withhold from this commission weekly manure volume figures that are needed to properly analyze what the actual risk is to the surrounding wetlands and waterways. As Mr. Frost said regarding
the fireworks matter. Quote, "As we get older, we realize more about the impacts that these things have." End quote. That's the case with 88 mil Lane. For example, the town's management, storm water management um regulations didn't
even exist, but when the Bellazians built this property, we also didn't know that Mil Pond would be closed for 30 years due to fecal caulifform bacteria. And the list goes on. In conclusion, the applicant suggests that they will return
for future approvals, but as I think some of the members of this commission have alluded to, if this project is approved, it could qualify for exemptions that would allow future expansion without further scrutiny, leaving the town only to its own
resources to enforce whatever you decide here. We urge the commission to carefully consider the current NOI and the undetailed extensive future plans. This NOI should be denied. Thank you.
Good evening. My name is Ron Dur. My property shares a boundary with 88 mil Lane. The new owners propose housing 30 goats and two donkeys at 88 Mil Lane. They
will spend from sun sunrise to sunset on pastures depositing and urine in downward sloping areas to run off. Every day the animals will deposit
hundreds of forms of colorful bacteria rich feces in the pastures which will not be litigated by every day [Music]
So this is [Music] how [Music] come up. because [Music] I'm sure
You can call them road. can be expected to increase the number of days that a high density of California bacteria in milk pond will shut down
shell fishing. The farm's additional load of California bacteria may in fact remotely prohibit commercial shellfishing in the pond and make it so recreation activities.
The proposal forms effects on water quality acceptable Please raise your hand. One person. Sam. Sam. Sam.
Uh, are you muted? I can't tell. Sam, you're calling on you. Sam, you're live. Any comments on Zoom? If none, we will move on. He's not He's not doing it. So, anyone
else on Zoom? I can't see. Isn't there? Hi. Can you hear us? Sorry, it's Sam. Sam. Yeah. Sorry, it's Rachel. I'm on Sam's computer. It's Rachel Rosen from 128 Water Street. I want to commend the
person on the commission who actually seem to have read our letters and we greatly appreciate that you consider the laws that we are u bringing up. I want to stress and I hope the new owners understand this that the people that are speaking on our behalf and on the behalf of the neighborhood have lived there for
40 and 50 years. The new owners have not even spent a full week in the neighborhood. The people here are speaking out of their heart because they've seen the ups and downs of the water supply in our area. I'm extremely concerned that we're talking about how
wetting manure is a good thing. No way is wetting manure a good thing. While you may be able to pick it up easier, wetting it puts it in the water supply. So, I'm very bothered by this whole conversation about how we should let sprinklers run on the poop. This is
incredibly disturbing. And while this may be best farm practice when you're not in a wetlands, it cannot be a best practice when you're in the wetlands. I would strongly urge everybody on this commission to really follow the law, not just rubber stamp something because it's
in front of the committee. Every single person here has researched this, hired lawyers, hired experts to understand all of the issues that are involved here. So, please make sure you do your due
diligence before you approve this. Say, I think if you've been listening, we are doing our due diligence. We haven't rubber stamped anything. And also, I think you misheard the wetting of the manure. It's just the opposite.
They would be doing the manure uh before they irrigate or if there was a big storm coming before a big storm. So, uh, I just want to make those two corrections, but I would definitely defend what we're doing and how we're working this through and listening to
both sides and making decisions and spending a lot of time on it ourselves. Thank you. Anybody else online? Vincent. What? Vincent. Vincent. Someone has good eyes.
Yes. Yeah. Can you hear me? Yes. I I apologize because I know this is outside your purview, but I would just like to know uh at what point it will be within the purview of one of the committees that's going to be reviewing this application that goes forward. I live at 48 mil lane. Uh the lane is uh
barely capable of having two cars pass one another. So I know it's not your issue, but can you tell me which commission will be looking at the issues associated with traffic? I I don't know. I don't know at this time. We can I
don't know if there's a committee that refuses. Ask the town manager because I I really don't know the answer to that question. Would it be the DPW? I mean, I've often asked that question in relationship to other things going on in towns who does traffic studies. Be honest, I don't get a very good answer. So, you might ask
the town manager's office. Sure. Thank you. Yeah, because as all all the roads around here are very narrow. Thank you. Yeah. why we like living here. Uh just just to address the traffic
issue, I sorry, just to address this traffic issue, we probably have Sorry, can you hear me now? Uh Natasha Brmpst to address the traffic issue. Um Oh, I'm sorry, Natasha Brmpst. I'm the
applicant. Thank you. Sorry about that. Um, we probably have I don't know all over four hay trucks a year. Um, I know I'm just I just want to because there's a lot of statements. Nothing to do with I understand but traffic should not be a
material issue for people to be concerned about deal with that in another group of people. We have enough to deal with here. The DPW would that's fine. Okay. Okay. I don't see anybody. So,
commissioners, anybody? Yeah, we'll start with Paul. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I've It's been interesting to listen to all of the um folks who live over in that area. Certainly some very knowledgeable people about an awful lot of laws and
regulations and so on. And I just would want to say the next time we have an opening on this committee, I'd love to have some of you participate. Um something something that we have trouble with sometimes. Um, we're volunteers to this town. We don't get paid anything. We're not a rubber stamp type of a of a
committee. Uh, we try to do a friendly job in terms of watching out for the environment and doing our best to help um with the enforcement of the Wetland Protection Act. So, um, we may do you may say things that are imperfect and so
do we, but um, please be assured that we're doing our best to consider all of your concerns. It is kind of um interesting that the um the establishment of a of a farm is such a
such a problem in an area that was built upon agriculture. I could only um wonder what would have happened in 16 um 39 or whatever it was if people had to make an application for a farm in
those days. Um, I think what you're doing is perfectly appropriate is speaking your minds, giving us some more information, helping us with the consideration. Um, but please remember that we're we're with you, too. We're towns people. I don't live far from that
area. I've always enjoyed that area. And um we would do nothing I'm sure to ever um uh you know judge or to um vote for something that we thought was extremely deletarious to that particular area or any other area in town. And it's a it's
a struggle. It's a struggle because people are always um second-guessing the Wetland Protection Act requirements and so on and so forth. And um I hope you understand that all these folks next to me are doing their best to um work in a
way that is in the best interest of this town. Thank you. Oh yeah, thank you. Um I wish I brought my binder with me with the Wetlands Protection Act. I mean we all are as familiar and it and we um are
we are getting continuing ed on it and and I just want to make it clear that we We do follow the guidelines. Um let's talk about the difference between um because seems to be the subject at hand is manure. Is it a fiscal reason why the
the bio am I saying it right? The bioader is not being utilized. Could you explain to me how that would improve the manure removal versus the structure? It it's I mean I'm I'm leaning here that that
might be something you need to do. Is this bioader if you could just tell me the pros and cons and is it a fiscal issue? Um it's $30,000. It's it's a it's a substantial investment. Um but you know um we're of the opinion that we could do
it without it, but we would certainly it might be uh you know like a washing machine versus washing the the dishes by hand. you know, it might be something that they they move towards in a year or two. Um, but um, how does it work? I mean, you have So, where do you store it in the meantime or
Oh, it's always in an enclosed structure anyway. So, it'll be in inside the uh the composting area and you load one end and the clean manure the the composted organics come out the other side. But, it adds a little bit of moisture. It gets the temperature right. It mixes it, oxygenates it, and uh basically is just
like a like a like a cement mixer. It slowly moves through as it's processed and and the nice fertilizer comes out the other end. They have online some some information on that. Is it something that we should explore here? Because you heard the concerns of the public even though we're doing
everything possible to drain this property correctly. I don't know if the audience heard this about this burm around the whole perimeter. I mean, that's we're addressing the runoff. Yeah. And although it's 25 feet higher, it's pitched away from Mil Mill Creek and Mil Pond. Would
this help the manure run off is my question? You know, it's it's just a it's a laborsaving device. I think the quality as long if it's a well-managed u uh composting area, it would be equivalent. Um I don't know. Leo, did you have any thoughts?
I think what we're doing now is uh we're confusing two things. the manure out that has been dropped daily by the animals out on the pasture and the effects of that that some of the people may have concerned about and then the actual manure storage if you will or
compost area. So it's two entirely different things. I personally have not had good experience with these mechanical devices but again as what was set up here on the board agriculture is becoming an historic thing and I'm a
historic person. My wife doesn't have a dishwasher. Doesn't like them. Never liked them. She always washed her dishes by hand as Dan said. And this is a similar kind of thing. It's new. It's a piece of machinery though. It is a piece of machinery. It's mechanical. It works.
Um I personally will tell you that I am not impressed with them. Uh Robert our company and myself got together about 15 years ago and designed a similar kind of situation. It just it was more problematic. The
I even suggested to the applicant that if the manure becomes a problem, the manure storage or composting area becomes a problem, just remove it. It's not you, we're not talking thousands of tons here. You come in with a little
loader and you dump it into a dump trailer and off the site it goes. And then it's not Yamoth's problem. You know, town of How would love to take it for $10 a ton because they use it in their thing. I would rather see that as a backup than a mechanical uh aspect
thing. Yeah. So, with the the manure, I have chickens. I had to go to the board of health to get approval for my chickens and they came and they came back to make sure that I kept a clean
coupe. Does the board of health come back and check on means and methods and count the animals? Absolutely. Most involving the waste removal at all like all all the towns that have board of health here on the cave. All of them
that have health agents, they have barn inspections on an annual basis. It's either done through someone at the board of health or the animal inspector or the dog officer if you will who has knowledge from the board of health about the manual management food storage and and weight
absolutely rats uh infestation important for the public to know. Yes, that's I know it's out of our purview. It's all covered when they're uh usually it's done like like the hotel inspections. It's usually done a certain time of year. Question. This is just uh to to to just
clean the manure or to temp this composted quicker. It's composted quicker. Composted quicker and then it becomes uh a soil if you will. And again, I think one of the reasons why I've not had much luck with them is cuz once they be once it becomes soil and if this machine is
doing what it does and it's moving it from manure, a nitrogenrich product to soil and even if it doesn't in two weeks, most farms end up having to get rid of the soil anyhow because they don't have a place to use it
and they don't have enough area to cover it. So, it's kind of not been a a a Yeah, they haven't. I agree. professional they have in their um application that they would be removing any any compost that doesn't fit or becomes too much and I think that is a better solution than
this. Sometimes they just dehydrate and it's not really compost at the end and you're not really sure. So I would agree. You don't know what happens in there. It's like a trash compactor. So we have um September 4th or 18th for more information as we talked about. What
would you prefer? Um well um again pleasure the board um you know would be very comfortable with with with closing the hearing subject to receipt of a plan showing as discussed the buffer between um the two flags. Um I I don't know how
much more we can add. Um again um you know we did discuss a significant number of items and some you provided I would I would prefer it's up to the commission. David. Yeah, I don't personally because I just think there
are too many questions. People brought up some good points. Um I'm not an expert or even close to doing a scientist. So um I don't need time to figure out how to look at what some of these points were.
Um I did want to ask um I think it's Joshua Stain. Did did you put your stuff in writing? Yes, he read it. Yeah. didn't look at names when I read everything, but I'll read yours again. And um same and I did read uh the one we
received the other day from uh the name. Um you have a Wilson letter and I just need to spend time and um I have lots of other things to do in life too because Paul said we're open. Public comment has closed.
I might I Yes, I submitted that in my letter and that letter as well as my prior letter of August one indicate even more violation. If we're getting a a new plan, would it be possible to see where the irrigation is located during in the 35 ft buffer?
Just just that section. Yeah, we can. There's a separate irrigation plan that was put in, but it's fuzzy, so I can overlay that. Yeah. Is it possible to combine? Yeah, we could combine that. No problem. Um um I am I am away on the 13th for two
weeks. So that's my my life. Um but I the 4th or September 4th is our next one. That would only give you one week for revisions. Um I think we'd like to try for that. Um we can get the revisions in within a
week easily and um you know if if possible. comments. All the comments of concern. What date? September 4th. September 4th. Give me a minute. Yes, Paul.
Yeah. I just um you know, as I think I said, um I'm always concerned with upholding the regulations and the um of both the town regulations and the wetland protection act. and and I look to Britney for the most part regarding
whether or not whatever is being presented is violating either one of those things. Now, certain comments have been made to tonight where very specifically it's been at least alleged that there are violations that exist in this whole proposal. I would like to,
and I think you're going to do this, go through each one of them item by item so I understand if in fact they are truly violations or they are just somebody who's um you know desperate to stop this particular thing. And uh I I kind of
don't think that's the case. There might be some rhyme or reason to some of the comments, but I really would like to review that so that when I finally vote, I know that we are within our upholding our responsibilities having to do with the wetland protection act and the town
regulations. We're difficult subject. This is something that possibly few here have seen. a guide to agriculture and the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act. This is the manual put out by the
state and it uh is a little bit old but it does go through how the state is encouraging the farming but it also so each town can make its own bylaws under the state right to farm
act. The what I would like to address at this point is best management practices and I think very few people understand how these are derived for the conservation ser I'm sorry for the natural resources
conservation service um they essentially have the national standards which as Ellie pointed out it was a good table but that table doesn't really identify the specific standards that are being
addressed and I sort of quickly went over the point that I'd like to see more detail on the farm plan when I should be more explicit about the person's questions on the the legal problems and all the things that Paul wants to go
through which are will be important for the future because really I'm talking about the local best management practices the soil of the water resource. They
essentially say the national are taken by the states and derived their own general laws for the state, their own best management practices and then the conservation districts take those with the help of the NRCS. They work out what are the
local best management practices that take into consideration the soils, the water, and all the other differences that each district has. As you know, we're very different than just a few miles inland in the
Massachusetts. So, they have to be specific to the district conservation, you know, best management practices. And I think that as you understand that process, when I talk about going to see
your farm plan, we got to be detailed. There's going to have to be explicit rotational issues addressed, explicit chemical use issues expressed. And I think that um this is a key to an
ongoing acceptance of what's happening. If you go to goat milk production, if you if you go to bringing events on the farm, that's going to impact possibly erosion control act, you know,
situation, lots of things. So, it may not may not be in our purview, but it may end up overlapping with some of ours. So, I just want to clarify what we're talking about a little bit.
Oh, thank you. I I know and on the contrary I'm trying to simplify this and and and what I what we need to do is protect the adjacent wetlands and I see that what you should do or could do is because you're introducing swailes.
Okay, you it would be nice if you did a a drainage a drainage plan an overlay if you will like because you have to place these swailes so they're effective. We need to see that and we need to see how you've studied it, you know, with
arrows. Pretty, you know, pretty simple, but it's an overlay of of drainage. I mean, that seems to be the big issue here. And it's a very simple uh solution to show how you have addressed it and and and then, you know,
and show show where it's located it. But I think on a separate I think you might have to do an overlay or a separate plan. I don't know if you be happy to do that. That's it's it's straightforward to do and it there's so much on here that it just a simple drainage plan showing the where the runoff goes where it will be rerouted
specifically from the composting area is a great idea. Be happy to do it. That's what you do. Thank you. One little more. uh and big projects. We ask the
applicants to provide information that they will have to do studies or other kind of ways of collecting what the problem may be, what you know water quality, the town putting water, the waste water
back into Parker's River. Lots of studies are being done and and at some point if we see that it's questionable situation, we could request you folks to go back in and do more detailed uh studies of what the impacts may be. I
don't see that happening, but I'm just sort of pointing that out here, how it's a bigger, more complicated picture that you've gotten yourselves into than you might have imagined. Well, you know, it sounds from from the gist of what I'm getting here, we're
happy to comply and we want to be good citizens. So, I'm happy to do it as long as about what we're talking about gets approved. I don't think we have any problems. Thank you. So, I'll just bring this to a closure um when we go to I'm sorry, what' you say?
I was going to bring this say something to continue. Okay. Um, this is in my time here, this is the first time we've had a farm come in front of us. We come in front of us with docks and peers and and other things. We
we know what we're doing. We know exactly we, you know, but for a lot of us, for me, I'll talk about myself. This is education. And I've spent a long time, spent all day today doing things and met with Britney for an hour yesterday. So, it's a lot of work and uh
we're not rubber stamping anything. We're not going to say yes, you can do this because we want a farm. We want to make sure that the water stays clean as Paul and Jack both said and I know the rest of the commissioners feel the same way. So, this going to take time and um
we'll work it through. Um mean they're not going to get the farm. No, it doesn't mean that. mean that uh we're going to make sure if they if we do vote for the farm that that we can guarantee to the best of our ability that the that the uh water will stay clean or if it
gets gets dirty if it gets polluted it may it may not be because of the farm because as some of you commented earlier there are times they close if the uh shellfish and I talked to Cassandra about this a couple weeks ago she's the shellfish person she there are times
she's closed it and that before there was a farm or without a farm. So sometimes it gets closed for other reasons um not just because there's a farm in the area. So um we don't we you know we don't want it to close because of the farm. We don't have control of
other runoffs. Um I know some of you probably um ironically put on lots of stuff on your grass to keep it green and pretty and and water your lawns even though we're in a drought and asking people not to water their lawns. Um, and
the irony is some of that stuff gets put into the water. So, you know, I would suggest neighbors talk to neighbors about not putting down pesticides on your lawn. Uh, sometimes it's because of um of other reason, septic tanks and things
like that. So, that's why we're doing waste water um treatment plant. So, I just want you to consider all that. There's a lot of variables why um why water gets closed off. There were 65 beaches in the state of Massachusetts
last weekend that were closed for various reasons. So, we're doing our best and uh so I'm going to take a motion to uh continue to September 4th. September 4th. So, move uh Jack.
I'll second. Second. All in favor? I. All opposed. Okay. I appreciate all your input and I hope to continue to have it and um all said we're going to move up to the rest of our
Thank you. Thank you all for coming and appreciate your time. Can you put this? Okay. And it's useful. I was on my way here. I've introduced good for the minutes.
Okay. Yep. Let's move ahead to minutes from which I have to anybody read them and approve them. Okay. Good. I'd like to make a motion that we approve the minutes July 17th and August
7th. July 17th first because I can't vote on July 17th. Okay. July 17th 1st. Second. Second. Okay. All in favor? I I Okay. Now you can go August. I would like to make a motion that we approve the M meetings for August 7th as
written. Second. Second. Second. All in favor? I. No one. Okay. Um the next one is the significant drought status. uh returned on August 8th. Um we talked about this
on the side. I know I was with um a couple people last week on our site visits and I said I counted 26 homes in my neighborhood was still watering every day and I what can we do about it? What can we do about that's the problem
you know they send a letter out and that's as much as they can do. They can't turn the water off. They can't find them. It's sad. So, if you're out there listening and you um are watering, please stop. We're going to run into major problems.
See the leaves turning brown on Route Six. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can hand water. You can hand water your plants and your garden. Why can't we Why can't something more be done than just
Would that be a regulation or um It's under the water department, but you can ask them. We could ask them. Oh, yeah. I'm going to call them tomorrow myself. Oh, not tomorrow. Monday. Tomorrow. It could be all day. I I go to work early in the morning and
I see all the businesses have their have it going and they have it done at noon or one o'clock in the afternoon. That's the other thing. I w I drove by a couple of hotels on 28 and they're watering at noon. I mean that's just a waste of water because it never
a hot day. Yeah. And they want you to water before 9 after 5 by hand only. Yeah. But this I wait the 10 minutes theory. What's what's 10 minutes?
But uh people are and and there as Ellie just said to me, there are a number of people who don't live on the Cape who are gone all summer and their water's always on and they ignore the letter because the letter has no that is a request, not a
no. What? Yes. Yeah. For the record, I guess um because I don't know if who's listening, but um you know, in other departments, for example, I think of the building department when there's a violation, there's building going on without a permit. Even our commissioner, there's things going on without a permit. Um
they'll stick to the building, they get a red sticker on the front of the house to say cease and desist. Um, in this particular time, I know that unfortunately a lot of times the the various town departments don't have enough people to do what they I think
would like to do. But in this kind of situation, they might designate somebody to drive around the town a little, you know, two, three times a week with some sort of sticker or some kind of a letter or some kind of a sign that they stick in the in the in the yard or whatever,
knock on the door and say, "Listen, it seems you've been watering. I wonder if you might stop." You know, and the same thing, cease and desist. Um, and you know, I I happened to talk to somebody at the water department. and I asked some questions about myself and um I got
the same information or sending a letter out, you know. So, so I wish I wish there somebody in the water department. I see their trucks going around. I don't know how many people work for the water department, but you know that to me the thing is if there was a water leak,
right? They'd be on top of that. They'd have to be because it would be a waste of water. Well, this is a similar waste of water and a dangerous waste of water. So why don't they just cruise around town for two hours in the morning or something like that or before they quit
for the day and put up a sticker or a sign or something. They do know they do know how much water you're using is what I called up once. Yeah, I know. Give them a couple of addresses on the local snitch and um and um she said, "Oh yeah, look. Yeah, I can see
it's you know using much more water." Oh, they have the water meter. Yeah, they know. They know. Yeah. So, so that's what I was going to mention is that the meters themselves can be used for that for tracking and it would probably take
personnel and time and money to make it so they could automate that give a list of the people that are using water and when. But I suppose it could be done or even if we need better metering
at some point that would cost a bit of money. But uh they can't go on the property and turn the water off. A lot of people's you know you can lock your box so they can't unlock it anyway. And so I don't know
what the you know what the Well, I I don't think that the water should be shut off. I mean that would might be very dangerous for somebody. Um talking about the irrigation. Oh the irrigation. Yeah. Well I don't think it should shut off people.
Yeah. I mean, I don't have an answer, but uh except for the citizens of Yarmouth have to cooperate. I mean, we're blaming the the uh sounds like we're blaming the water department, but it's really not their fault. It's the citizens who should be, you know, absolutely. Yeah.
That water is precious. We have one aquifer in this on Cape Cod. Well, we're in a drastic drought. May I small drought? Significant. Yeah. point out because they talked about the acryer up there on Mill Lane
and they're not connected. That lacrifer does not do anything about you know it doesn't get its water from down here. It gets its water coming out of the the local lacrifer not it's not very big area that it draws on. Um and this is a
part of the problem of people understanding even the professional thing stuff I see and just what I see described is inaccurate the way they talk about the big flow of water coming out of you know from the sandwich and
fmouth it doesn't go clear down well first of all the vast river is in the way for it to go any further and but there's a lot more complication of the water Um, and I think that that's up to us to try
to clarify. Um, the fall MACC conference was announced in Devons again, um, October 25th. They're also doing a fall fundamentals frenzy. If anyone sees anything they want to take, let me know. Not you personally, but conservation
department pays for. Yes. Yes. So if you want to go or you want to get your certification which when is that? Yeah, I did 25th. Um it's so all the fundamentals are in your are online. You'll have to see which ones you have a credit I think Jack you have to use.
Hey what you have a credit. So you got to get one class at least. Got to get a couple more. Yeah, three actually. It was well I thought it was well worth getting the certification. If you're a member, you should have gotten an email,
but I'll send you one classes over and over again. Rude. Okay. Anything else? I want to thank you all of you for being so knowledgeable and good about uh asking good questions
and especially with the controversy of the five. Appreciate it. I don't say it enough. Um can I hear a motion to um journ? So moved. Second. Second. Second right here. Okay. All in favor? I.
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