in progress. >> Uh good evening and welcome to the December 3rd, 2025 Yarmouth Planning Board meeting. I am Joan Crowley, chair. The public is welcome to attend uh in person this evening as you have. Thank you. Or via alternative public access
provided on the notice of meeting available on the town of Yarmouth website. I'd like to begin by taking roll call. Susan Brida, >> present. >> Dearra Gaquin, >> here. >> Tom Pendleton, >> here. >> Will Rubenstein >> here. >> Peter Slovak, >> here. Ken Smith >> here. >> Joanne Crowley present. So we have a
quorum. Um I'd like to call the meeting to order and ask you to join me in the pledge of allegiance. >> Pledge allegiance >> to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God,
indivisible with liberty and justice for all. [Music] First item on our agenda this evening uh is the uh update from the library building committee. Uh I am very pleased
to have you here this evening. Thank you for all your hard work. I'd like to recognize some members of the committee. We have the chair uh Judy Tarver. We have Tom Pendleton also a member of the planning board here. Uh Sandy Fe is uh
in here as well. Susan Brida, member of the planning board is also here. Um, John Greco, uh, Vaseliki Gianados, I apologize for the misprononunciation. Our select woman,
uh, Doris McGerkin, um, Joe Joseph Lereck and Mindy Harrington, who you always can see in a crowd. >> Oh, yeah. Um, and as a member of the library board of trustees at South Armit Library, Mindy and I are well
acquainted. So, welcome to the meeting and come forward and and uh share with us your update, please. And introductions just for uh public uh consumption here. That would be good. Hello,
I'm Judy Connor Tarver. I'm the chair. And with me tonight is Matt Odens who is a principal in Odin and architect and the architect that we've been working with. So I just want to give you a quick update where we've been with this
because it's a huge project for the town and Matt's going to uh take it away as far as present uh what we've accomplished and what we're facing for the next
few question marks. So, our committee was established May 1st and we got right to work on site evaluations and we did an open meeting on 6:17.
Uh we met on the 18th, voted our site, brought it to the select board on June 24 and they approved the site. And at that time we were referring to the site as the Simkins field. We were later
corrected and it is Joshua Sears uh playground. So that's the correct term for that piece of property. And we were kind of fortunate in that the site that was approved by the select board
included two parcels. So, parcel 50, it is the parcel we think of as the playground that if you're on Route 28 and you look straight across to the back of the Simpkins uh housing, that piece of property where the Seaside
Festival is and that sort of thing. Parcel 60 is to the east and that includes the MacArthur School building and undeveloped property, parking lots and that sort of thing.
So, some questions came up about the availability of parcel 50. There were lots of question marks with this and we were unable to get a final decision from town council about whether
this was an eligible piece of property to use. And given what was presented to the select board and to us by interested parties who had been involved with the property, it seemed
like there was enough evidence that we should not disrupt this and that that it was probably protected property. So fortunately we had the ability to pivot to parcel 60 and
that was done and then we went to the select board on October 7 and presented the new ideas, the new design and looking for direction from them.
It was decided that the library building committee would continue on the road that we're on, which is basically to meet the deadline of the Mass Board of Library Commissioners and their requirements to have the proposal
submitted by December 31 for a library to serve the whole town. And that's that's that charge. Simultaneously, the board there were several board members who were interested in determining whether the MacArthur school
was eligible to uh be reworked into a library. There was an assessment done actually the day or we submitted it on October 7th. I think it was done October 5th.
Um, so Matt's consulting archite uh engineers went in and and they found a lot of issues with that idea. Then we went to special town meeting
and there was a proposal and that was voted down. So that's really out of our hands anyway as the library building committee because what we're trying to do is find a good site and uh be fiscally sound in how we approach the
development of a a new library. Uh so uh I also just wanted to say that in our comprehensive plan which I know you guys are very familiar with. Um in the
chapter six the capital infrastructure and facilities it really does mention that one of the important things is the lack of a modern library or lack of modern library facilities. So this project really um is moving forward to
meet those needs. So what we've done since that meeting in the beginning of October has been to continue to work on programs. And what that means in this context is the li library study that had
been done by that we inherited that Matt's firm inherited determined that there were certain programmatic areas that our town would need for adult services, children's services, circulation, support for the staff, um
bathroom facilities, that sort of thing. So, there's been a lot of wiggling around about that. Uh, site evaluations have continued and we've working on parking and trying to we talk a lot
about parking. So, >> you too. >> Yeah. Okay. Also, I'm not sure exactly when this was, but Odinello met with a representative group
from town halls which included uh building health department fire >> fire >> fire a a number of the people who would be involved. Oh, Kathy was there um involved in hurting this project
wherever it needed to go and what requirements might need to be made. So now I'm going to turn it over to Matt and >> away actually if you can promote me as panelist I can share my screen because I
have an updated site plan. I'm on the Zoom. Okay, that's a then people in in the audience and may not be able to see it. Um, >> but if I share it on the Zoom, they won't see it. >> They won't see it, but they might be able to see it on the other side. >> Liam,
>> he's got it. >> They should. >> I have it connected back here. I can put that up on >> You can put it on screen. >> So, should I close this out? What should >> No, as long as the presentation's connected to the HDMI port, we're fine. >> But it's it's not. It would need to be connected to his. >> He can plug his computer into there and
I can put it up so every >> So you don't want me to connect through Zoom? >> Fewer people can see it. >> We got this one extra long. So we should be good. >> I've got a super long one.
>> This one looks untangled. >> It's like a double Dutch one. All right, let's It gave me the option to mirror which I did. Display settings. big. >> Oh, great.
Oh, it won't go full screen. That's why. had it and lost it. >> Story of our lives. >> Lost it. >> Say it again. >> Yeah, >> it it won't let me go full screen, but that that's fine. I can just advance the slides this way. Sorry everybody. We
just have an updated site plan and I don't want to talk about parking with an old site plan. So, apologies. Unplug it and plug it in again. [Music] Okay, >> here we go.
>> All right. gets never gets any credit. >> Here we go. All right. >> Thank you, Liam. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Liam. >> Um, so Judy, thank you for the background. I I just want to back up a little bit and give everybody some context in terms of schedule. This is
what we see as a schedule for the full project. We are wrapping up that first little blue bar there that says feasibility study, which is a six-month study. Um, this was funded through a planning and design grant from the state Massachusetts Board of Library
Commissioners. We have a completion and submission of the the study materials at the end of December. That then goes to the state MBLC for their review. Uh, we get review comments back. Uh Yarmouth is one of the immediately funded towns,
which means assuming that this goes to Springtown Meeting and the the voters vote in favor of the project and the town agrees to pay the matching funds from the grant, it automatically moves forward into the next phases. Um there are weight listed towns. You are not one
of them. You're immediately funded. So Oh dear. [Music] Do you want to put it on a thumb drive and I can put it here? >> Sure. >> So, after that review period, there's still a year of design uh before we go
to bidding and construction. So, um you know, we're looking at uh basically submitting bid documents by spring of 2027. So, so that puts it into context a little bit in terms of schedule.
Um, >> sorry. Technology is never easy, is it? Well, I think the library building committee attracts these problems almost every meeting. >> So, our apologies. >> No, no,
>> not to worry. I know they're afraid. Should be careful. same exact name. >> And you got the clicker. >> Oh, perfect. Thank you. >> For you. >> Whoa. >> Excellent. >> All right. All right,
>> back in business. >> All right, >> good job. >> Okay, >> sorry about that. >> All right. >> Uh, so any questions about the schedule? We're we're at the tip of the iceberg here is is the message. Um, there's a lot left in terms of design, planning,
approvals. Obviously, we'll be coming before you as a group formally. Uh, we'll be going through a site plan and review process. you know, it'll follow all of the normal processes for approvals and and permitting and everything. So, this is the very beginning. Um, we we keep hearing from
both the MBLC and from our clients, you know, talk about final plans, final submission, and there is nothing final about this submission. We there's a lot still to do once we submit this to the NBLC. Um, so this is all just by way of
context. Um, Judy mentioned the program. We we obviously inherited a program and used that as the basis to develop planning options. Um as Judy also said, we started by focusing on parcel 50, one of the two
parcels in this combined town um town owned property with the discovery that that was um protected by article 90. that we had previously at uh a public forum shown five different options for
how a library might work with a future town common on that open space. We obviously had to pivot um after this and move to uh what should I be pointing this at? It's not advancing
>> these I can do it. >> Okay. Uh next >> next line. Yeah. So we started focusing on parcel 60. Obviously the MacArthur school building and parking is already there. So we had to think okay well where can we fit a library in in the
context of that existing condition. Uh the highlighted triangular shape there between the access road and the boundary with parcel 50 was too small to accommodate library and parking. Next uh the area immediately behind the MacArthur school is certainly big
enough. It's flat. But we felt that that wasn't quite the right place for a new important civic building for the town to put it behind another building. Not easily seen, not easily accessed. Next, and so that led us to focus on this northeast corner of the site. If any of
you are familiar with the site, you will know that that is heavily wooded. Um, we also realized once we started getting some survey work that there's also a a big depression there which you can't see because you can't walk into that property. Um, but we looked at that a
little bit more carefully. Next, please. And realized that, you know, there is a a decent amount of flat area um to the right of that depression. And the depression, although it looks dramatic in Toppo, is much gentler than it than
it appears. And so we thought that could actually become an interesting amenity around which this public library is organized next. And so we did just that. We started thinking, you know, can we fit the various wings, children, adults,
community around the edges of this what we started thinking of as a landscape feature, you know, some an amenity really to the library. Uh, next please. Um, this is that area next. It's very dense. This is just on the other side of
the access road. If you look at an overall topo map, you'll see that the the access road was filled. So event originally, this was one continuous depression. So the area that you see here in this photograph is on the parcel 50 side. It's adjacent to the fields.
There's a DPW storage, you know, lot right next to it. But it's quite nice. There's very little maintenance done in there, but it's open. It gets some sunlight. It has a nice character. Um, and we think that the area around the library could could have a similar feel
with a little bit of clearing. And so this started in our minds to become something of a benefit. And um, here, next slide, please. We have a building that is close to Route 28, accessible
both by foot and by car. Um, independent enough of the MacArthur School building and yet has this kind of secluded feel, this sort of special quality of the the place around the library that for us was very exciting. And the same way we got
excited about a library next to a town common, that's a great pairing. Um, this also to us seemed it's very different, but it also seemed really interesting and compelling as a memorable building and and um, you know, who doesn't want to spend time in buildings that that
have that kind of relationship to the outdoors. Next, please. So since that time, we've been developing plans and this has been an iterative process. As you guys know, we've been working closely with library staff, with the building committee, with
the MBLC representatives to make sure that things are where they need to be, that we're accommodating collections, we're accommodating seating, all of which is spelled out in the library program. um that we're meeting requirements for sightelines, for accessibility,
um off hours, community access. This is a requirement of all of the MBLC projects that um off hours there is provision made to access at least one community meeting space. Here we have two. We have 120 seat um auditorium,
which is a flexible space, flat floor, even though it's called an auditorium. Um movable chairs and and furniture. So um you know a very flexible kind of space uh a smaller classroom space which is around 600 square ft that could be
used for classes for activities you know different meeting groups. Um and these are these are accessible both during the day for library patrons but also off hours. Um so that wing that community wing which is the the bottom wing here.
Can I point with this? Uh yeah, Kathy is pointing it out. That's it. This whole wing can be closed off here. So the main entrance uh to the building is here. There's a covered entry porch into a central lobby off of
which are these kind of various spokes. Um children and teens on the left. >> Did I do that? >> Yeah. >> God, >> now it starts working right. Let me try to bring it. Is that where
you were? No, >> I'm gonna just let Kathy drive. >> Um the the the wing at the top, the yellow wing is adults. Uh the red is community function. So that the red areas, those two classrooms, plus all of
their ancillary spaces, the public restrooms, the kitchen that serves the meeting room, uh AV storage, all of those uh rooms are part of this off hours suite of rooms. We also typically
provide generator power um for that area. So if power goes out in town, the library can serve as a sort of warming and cooling center. We stopped short of it being a shelter, but um having it available we have found is is a real benefit for towns. They can charge their
phone, they can get a cup of coffee, connect with other people in town. So um that's become kind of standard in terms of how we approach this. And then staff and utilities is the the program that's sort of behind the uh to the right
there. Yeah. and the circulation desk in blue in the center has visual oversight of all three wings. So, this organization seemed to work. We're now at around a 25,000t building. Uh, next, please.
Um, these are visuals that are now slightly out of date, but they're generally this the spirit of these, I think, is still uh indicative of where we're heading with this. Um, so this is an aerial view of the existing condition, obviously 3D modeled with the
MacArthur building on the right. Next, please. Uh, this is the proposed building that you see for scale. It's slightly different in its massing now, but um, that's how it sits on the site. There's plenty of room for expanded parking, and we'll talk about the site plan in a
minute next. Um, and then a couple of ground level views. This is a view as you would approach the building from parking. So, you're seeing the covered entry porch and community wing on the right. The children's and teen wing is uh to the
left in the further distance. And then in between them is is the entry and lobby. Next, this is a view from the other side down in that depression kind of on the I don't want to call it ravine, but that you know down in the in the the bowl
looking back up towards the building. Um a very different character, you know, wooded um kind of bucolic in a way, but but also um still very close to 28, which is great. Uh children's wing is on the
right, adult wing is in the back. next and a view from 28. The adult wing is the one that's closer to us. Uh next, um but being able to see this kind of through the trees as you're moving along 28 um but still have it set back enough
that there's some separation and and um a kind of space created by the library between Route 28 and the library itself. Next, please. So, in terms of zoning and um some of the sort of specific requirements, this
is the the blow up on the right um is where we are on the zoning map and we've outlined in white the parcel 60 uh lot that we sit on with the MacArthur building and then the star is where our build our proposed building is going.
This is a B2 zone with an HMO D1 overlay. Um, it borders a residential district to the south. Uh, yard requirements are front yard 30, sideyard
25, rear yard 20. We have no problem complying with any of those. Maximum building height 35 ft. We don't think that's going to be an issue. Although, we'll want to be careful about how we approach the the relationship of the top of the roof to the lowest point of the
site and understand how that factors into the calculation. But even with that um I think we'll be below the 35 ft. So we don't see any issues in terms of kind of dimensional requirements that require relief. We think we can comply with all
of those. Next, please. Um parking. Oh, this is not the right parking lot. Uh How did that happen? >> Kathy, if I email you. >> I don't have access to my email on this computer. I'm sorry.
>> Oh, I am so sorry. Do this to you again. Well, we did look at this this parking organization which >> we did we have a we have a new layout which has a different parking
um which I thought was in here but >> Kathy what does that route 28 set back >> 30 >> 30 >> and we're further back from the 30 foot setback. We're probably another 10 ft back. >> Are they widening the road there? I know
we're not asking questions yet, but I mean, >> oh, >> 20 ft. >> Um, while Kathy's loading this up, >> may interrupt for just one second. I'd like to make a note that Mr. Smith is leaving to attend a capital budget meeting with the finance committee. He
will be returning. >> We'll be back. >> We hope. >> We hope. >> We hope. >> Good luck. >> Good luck. >> I'm sorry. Continue. Sorry about that. >> Oh, no worries.
>> All right. Here we go. >> This is just what you the one page. >> Yeah, just the one page. >> Great. That is it. Uh, okay. Deep breath. Um, >> we're a friendly crowd. >> The the complication here is that
there's an existing building that has existing parking and we are also providing parking for the library. So, we're combining those two lots. So, we need to understand not only the approach for parking for the library but also for
the MacArthur building. Um there as an existing condition there are 19 spaces west of the MacArthur building. We're not planning to do anything with those spaces. That's what you see along the left hand side facing the field. Um
there are also 48 spaces to the right of the MacArthur building. As I understand it, that is phase one of a permitted larger phase of parking for that building. Um,
it is unclear what the final use of that building will be. It's currently a school and it's an elementary school. So, elementary school parking, I would think, is a different calculation than collegiate school parking. It was leased to Bridgewater State, older students,
you know, older driving people. Um, whereas elementary school kids are getting dropped off. So I would think the parking requirements for those two uses are different although it doesn't distinguish in zoning between elementary school and higher ed. Um libraries are
also not a use listed specifically in zoning. Uh so in our initial read of zoning we thought that um the assembly it's clear that schools are included in the assembly occupancy um listing for parking requirements.
um schools are a P1 use and that and P1 is listed as one of the assembly uh uses that falls into that category which is calculated at one space for every three occupants. So based on the certificate of occupancy for the MacArthur building
which shows a total occupant count of I want to say a thousand people which is quite high. Um that creates a ridiculously large lot of 300 and some cars which could never happen. There are 48 spaces to the right. What and and
again we don't know the future use of the MacArthur building. Is it going to be continue to be an elementary school? Could it be town offices? Could it be some other use in the future? It's impossible for us to predict. So the approach that we have chosen to take for
parking is is replicate the existing spaces, the 48 spaces that are there now add to that the required library spaces. This is the other gray area. Libraries are not a listed use in zoning. So we've made the assumption that they fall into
the other category when you look at parking requirements which is at the discretion of the building commissioner. When we met with site plan review uh there were some on that panel that said no it should really be assembly you know libraries assembly occupancy for the
purposes of code it should then be considered assembly for the purposes of parking counts. If you follow the way the zoning is written, that doesn't quite fit because it's it's by use. Uh library is not a listed use. So there's some question
there. There's I think there's a gray area about parking. And then there's also the question of how do you count occupancy for parking? Because when we calculate occupancy, we calculate occupancy different ways for different things. We calculate occupancy for
egress, which is the most the the highest occupancy you get. And that's based on you know the type of area and then square feet per occupant based on the use of that area. Um there is park or there is um occupancy that's
calculated by actual use or we tend to count seats in a library project. That's the occupancy that we use to determine plumbing fixtures because that's a more accurate representation of who's actually going to be using this building. Um and then there's the MBLC
requirement. The MBLC metric their requirement is one space for every 400 gross square feet plus accessible spaces plus staff spaces. So if we take that as a starting point that's the minimum as
far as the state's concerned um at we're we're right now at about 25,300 square ft. That translates to 64 spaces at one per 400. um we would then be required to add three or four accessible spaces. The
access accessible spaces are based on the total number of parking that you have. We we're counting four and then we have 12 staff spaces which is a number that came out of a conversation with um with the library director. So that gets us to a total of 80 that would satisfy
the the state's requirement. Um, if we calculated this at one per three occupants, we're going to be well over 80. Um, what we have shown here, and I I apologize, there's it's a little bit busy with the line work, so I'm hoping you can read it, but um, we have a total
of 131 spaces, 83 new spaces, and 48 existing spaces. So, we've maintained the 48 spaces from the MacArthur building. We've added 83. We've established that the MBLC is going to be looking for 80 minimum. So, we're we're
there. They fit. We're within the setbacks. We're constrained by the two buildings, uh, west and north. We're at the setbacks for uh the east and south sides. Um, and we have a little bit of room, and you can see Kathy, if you can
point out those two dashed areas. Uh, we have a little bit of room for expansion. We could get 30 more spaces down in that lower corner and we could tuck eight spaces. I mean, we could eat up all of that green area, but I think that would be unfortunate to have all of that filled in with parking. Trying to
preserve a little bit of green space between MacArthur and the library. But we thought we could add another row of parking. Um, get eight spaces. So, that's 38 additional spaces, which would take us to a total of uh 169 spaces. I
think what was permitted uh was a lot of 163 spaces um for Bridgewater State when they were um when they were signing the lease for this building. So all of this is to say this
is what fits this is what we think is a reasonable parking uh amount for the the library. It maintains the existing parking. Um is that going to be acceptable? Um, in order to to submit
the grant, we need to have we need to either demonstrate that we comply with zoning, and I think as we've established, that's going to be difficult to do, or we have some sort ofou from the town that says this seems like a reasonable approach. It's not a
it's not an approval. It's nothing that is binding, but it's it's a document that says we have discussed this with the design team, with the library building committee, and we think this is a reasonable approach to parking that that we could support. It would
obviously have to go through all of the approvals um in order to to ratify it, but um they want some assurance, I guess, that we're not just coming up with the number and submitting it without having had any discussions with the town. Um, so that
that's where we are with with parking. It's a it's always a little bit of a messy discussion we find. But, um, >> can I just ask a question? Did you talk to Mark Grills, the building commissioner? >> We he was on vacation when we met, >> right? But he's been back for a couple
weeks. >> We've had some back and forth with him by email, but we haven't been able to connect. >> He might be able to answer all of these questions for you. He may say, "No, it's not assembly, it's the other." And I think what we had talked about a site plan review is presenting your your logic so to speak to him and see whether
he would say oh yeah that makes sense to me or no you need to tweak it a little bit because he's going to be the one that's going to be the deciding person with regard to whether you're meeting or not meeting zoning or relief might be needed or not needed and he's a valuable resource and I'm sure he'd be happy to have those further discussions. >> Yeah, we I mean as I said we've been
trying to connect and haven't been able to. He's he's been pretty busy since he's been back. Um, we we will definitely keep trying and we'll have that conversation. But I I just wanted to make sure that everybody understood. >> That's really the I at this point, you know, we're quite close to being at the
end and ready to submit. The plans have sort of solidified. We feel like we're in a good spot there. We're accommodating everything we need to. Um, you know, this in all other respects, we feel like we're we're pretty well positioned. Parking is still a bit of a
question for us and and so we want to make sure that we iron that out before the submission. Couple other things just to point out quickly. Um we do have two fire lanes uh dedicated. One is
that's right along the the southern edge of the children's wing. It kind of, you know, runs between the MacArthur School and the library. That we think is actually a great opportunity for pedestrian connections from the library over to the open space,
whether or not that becomes a town common. Um, we think that it could be a pedestrian way, but also with reinforced areas on either side of the path, so it doesn't look like a road. People aren't thinking, "Oh, I can just pull my car in
here." um but but stabilize the the ground either through an ad mixture in the soil or some other product um to create a fire lane but also have it planted. Um similarly, we have a fire lane that comes in off of 28 uh that allows us to get to the back and we've
we've worked out that we fall within the 250 ft limit for hose length. So we feel like with access from parking and the two fire lanes, we're in pretty good shape uh in that regard. Um, there are also, I should point out, dedicated drop
offs for both library and uh the MacArthur School. The library drop off gets you as close as we were comfortable getting with a car to the front door. Um, it's immediately next to that covered porch, so you can drop off, get right under cover, and then walk to the
entrance. Uh, the school has its own drop off um and ADA spaces next to it uh for for facilitating uh access to the school. That is the ADA accessible side of the school. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that building, but it's a split level. So,
you walk in, that lift is on that side. So, the drop off is uh is aligned with that. So, that's all we have. If you guys have any questions, I I'll open it up to some questions from
the uh members of the board. I want to thank you Matt and Judy for all the hard and the entire committee for uh an an incredible amount of work in a very short period of time. But I I want to I want to just make sure I understand
because I like to understand the expectations here. What do you need from us? And I'd like to focus on that because if you need something from us quickly before the submission, I need to know what it is. We need to know what it
is. Um, and it sounds like the parking is an issue, but it may not be with further discussions with Mark Grills. Uh, and so I I just want to understand what our timetable is. We you know, we're coming up. We have only one more
meeting scheduled on December 17th. >> And we we don't >> we I won't be here for it. >> You won't be here. >> Oh, we can run it ourselves. >> You can run it yourself. I'm sure Megan could cover. I mean, there's lots of options. I guess that that's where I'm going is what what do you need from us
when uh that would be helpful for your application. >> So we we don't need approval obviously. We're not asking for any kind of vote or anything. >> This is not a special granting. Um, we I mean I guess what we would like is to
hear from you if you have any concerns or if there's something that we have not yet thought of that we should from your perspective before we submit so that we've kind of covered all the bases. Um, if if there's some requirement somewhere that we have not that that we've
overlooked. Um but if you feel like we have kind of at at this stage the end of conceptual design have sort of satisfied all of the the various requirements that you can foresee at this stage then I think we're okay. I mean we wanted to
come to you really as a courtesy but and have a kind of informal conversation so that you understood it's a it's a major project for the town. Um, so we wanted to get your feedback, you know, make sure that you were aware of what what it was, but we're not asking you for
anything beyond that really. >> Okay. I I get maybe I mis misunderstood the the comment that you made with regard to a memo supporting some adjustments or relief >> that that would come from the building commissioner.
>> Okay. I'm sorry. Sorry, I thought that might might have been directed at us uh because that was a little confusing to me because we don't have any really regulatory authority to uh oversee this uh unless you were somehow
uh in a zoning mix that made us a special permit granting authority, which we're not in this case. We're not. And we appreciate the fact that you're here um kind of voluntarily. We appreciate that. So, I'd like to open it up to questions from the board. We do have two
members who are intimately uh uh involved with this, but I'd like to open it up to other members for questions. Um who'd like to start? >> I'll start. >> Thank you. >> What are what possibly are the impacts of the road widening? Your plan doesn't
show the existing guard rail and does Route 28 drain off into that depression? Um, all good questions and I don't have answers to any of them. Um, we do if if the road is going to widen. I know Kathy
has mentioned that there are plans for street improvements along 28, improving pedestrian access. There's definitely room in terms of where our building is for the street to widen and still be with, you know, outside of the 30oot
setback. I think right now we're 40 to 45 ft away from the curb on 28. So I don't I haven't seen any plans. I don't know what the how much the the street is going to widen, but there is definitely room there that would not put us in
non-compliance in terms of dimensional setbacks. >> And Amanda Lima, who is the town engineer, is well aware of this. She was uh informed at the very beginning and she was at your um meeting too. So she's very aware of where things are.
>> Um I don't know about drainage, you know, uh from 28 into that into that area. It um I mean we do know that it's dry, there are no wetland issues. Um, we at the at the very beginning of of sort
of exploring this concept, we talked about that as potentially collecting all of our rainwater. Um, we've moved away from that and I think it'll be a combination of some rainwater will be directed there, but a lot of it will be um, you know, capturing runoff in the
parking lot and dealing with it locally uh, in bio retention areas in the parking lot. So, it'll be a combination of the two, but I don't know about Route 28 and how that drains, >> right? >> So, there's a lot I mean, the the renderings are are very nice, but of
course, I I I saw it right away and I said, "Where are the sidewalks, guardrail? Where's everything that actually exists, you know, that would make this look a little less pretty?" >> Yeah. And I I don't know, as I said, I don't know what the plans are for the widening and and what impact that is
going to have. This is obviously a >> right >> conceptual image that doesn't have all of the >> Got it. >> less pretty things along 28. >> No, I understand. Um, is there is there a plan by the town to discuss when MacArthur is going to become available?
Is there a lease that's ending with Bridgewater? >> It's a lease that's ending in >> 2030. >> 2030. >> 2031. Right. >> So, you'll be done with construction probably 20 I mean 29
>> 20 mid 29 probably. Uh the the speaking of that the other thing that I should mention is I'm sure you're aware the um this potentially will align with the schedule of the sewer project the municipal sewer in one in 28. Um I think
this section of 28 is in the first phase of work to be implemented uh after the I guess the treatment facility is built. Um the the MacArthur building is on septic now and oddly the septic is in the woods. Um but maybe that was because
they were anticipating future parking. Um that septic is 25 years old. It's overgrown. There are trees on top of it on the leeching field. So, we have no idea what kind of condition it's in, but it's definitely at 25 years old, it's nearing the end of its useful life. Um,
we imagine that both the MacArthur building and the library will tie into this future sewer line. There is a problem or there is a potential that the two will not align in terms of schedule. Um, and the library might be ready
before the sewer line is ready. And so and and we can't take the MacArthur school offline from septic for some period of time. So what we have talked about uh with the committee and with our civil engineer is providing a temporary
leeching field that would bridge that gap should we need it. And we would design it and then when this goes out to bid we see where we are with the sewer project. And if the sewer project if if it aligns, we scrap the temporary leeching field. But if not, we have that
in our in our hip pocket. Um we think both the the septic chambers and the pump chamber are outside the footprint of this proposed building. So those could stay in place and we could just pump from the existing pump chamber to a new leeching field. So it would just be the cost of the leeching field and a
line um probably in the you know $30,000 range, something like that. So not free but not doesn't kill the project. Um but that's a you know these are always complicated municipal projects and that's one of the complications here. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you Peter will >> Oh thank you. Um first of all congratulations to everybody here and all the hard work you've put in. And it's very nice to see my old friend Linda Callahan who I don't remember how drafted me onto the library planning committee in 2017 maybe I think so. So,
it has been a long time, a long time. And um notwithstanding any emotions attached to all three of our amazing libraries that exist in our town, it is thrilling, genuinely thrilling to see this project
come to this point. And I recognize because of my work on some the Dennis Yarmouth Intermediate Middle School school building committee and now the current Emmy Small School Building Committee that this is just, you know, it's a 4x100 relay and you're kind of in
the first 100 of the four anyway. So I I sympathize with where you are, but being able to move this far down the track to continue the analogy is to be commended. Um I I don't have anything but supportive
things to say. Um I guess >> we're okay with that. >> No, I more of a parallel comment has to do with again some of the similar work I've done. You know, MSBA, >> which the Massachusetts School Building Authority, MBLC, I get the impression
they act in some similar ways and also different ways. So maybe this is well I'm guessing this is way too premature but I'm imagining at some point in the process it will become clearer what is reimburseable whatever even that means
um and at what percent and what is outside of reimbursement. And so I I would just say as someone who's about to do the same same work for whatever it is that happens with the future of our school district and its elementary school students that and in the interest
of trying to pass at town meeting not just this decision but a future decision on the future of our schools is to be very very clear and transparent what is reimburseable and what is not. And I understand that you may not be at that point by the time you have to come to
town meeting versus what happens after town meeting when things get really into the nitty-gritty. But um I that is part of the struggle and I think if you just take a look and Google what's happened at the NSET school district with the NSET high school, someone just sent me
an article today about what's going on in Lexington. Show me you should be googling that. It is wild stuff to a scale that you cannot even imagine being on little old Cape Cod. Hundreds of millions of dollars in Lexington. So
there you go. There's the number $600 million for a high school. So >> and this is before but I also understand and maybe this is different and this is why I want to ask the question. MSBA has a very has a has a special set of skills
and a special set of standards and a special set of data that they use to make projections to then make funding decisions. Is it true? Is it fair to say the MBLC acts the same way even if some of those data assumptions may or may not
be I'll just say Cape Cod cognizant. Does that make sense what I'm getting at? because we are not Lexington and we're and we're not even Plymouth. And some of the things I worry about for you is that you're going to be forced in down a road that may not look
so good when we finally get to the money and what it costs and what we're actually delivering because I believe that this will be an amazing building and it will serve not just patrons but also the entire community as well as be a healthy place for staff which can't be overlooked and certainly hasn't been. So, I'll shut up now and maybe you can
give me some insight on the MBLC from all your other work. >> So, we have a lot of experience with the MBLC. We don't have any experience with the MSBA other than what we read and what we hear from colleagues. >> So, anything I say about that is anecdotal.
>> Um, my impression of the two is that the MBLC is more flexible than the MSBA. Um the projects are much smaller, right? Just school versus library. Um and their
number one interest is in helping communities build libraries. So they don't want to be an impediment. They want to work with you to figure out how can we how can this happen for you? Um and so there are negotiable things. Parking is a great example. That is the
NBLC parking requirement. That said, asterisks. If you come to us and say, "Well, we can't quite do that. Here's a letter that this is what we've worked out with the town." That works for them. So, they are not rigid. They are flexible. And that that has been hugely
helpful in these processes. In terms of your question about eligible versus ineligible, it's pretty simple. And it's easier to list the things that are ineligible. Paving is ineligible. Furniture is ineligible except for library shelving. That is an eligible
cost. uh landscaping is ineligible. That's basically it. Everything else is eligible. And the difference between eligible and eligible, ineligible and eligible is that it is only the eligible costs against which the the
reimbursement um applies. So if 95% of your project is reimburse is is sorry is eligible and it is probably in that range 90 to 95% I would think of construction costs then
the reimbursement is going to focus on that amount. So let's say it's you know that's $20 million is eligible. Um they have a funding spreadsheet and it's different for every town and there are different factors. There's a need factor. there are, you know, different
kind of bonus points you can get and and that's pretty clearly spelled out in the grant award for Yarmouth. So, we know we can plug in our numbers once we have an estimate in January, which we plan to do. We'll have a detailed estimate. We can take those numbers, minus out the
ineligible costs, plug everything else into the MBLC spreadsheet, and have a very exact figure of what the what the grant reimbursement will be. Um, we think that it's roughly in the 50% range of eligible costs. Um, which is great.
And and that also includes project costs. It's not just construction costs. So, design fees, legal fees, all of the other things that that fall into the the soft costs that go along to make the the combined project costs are also
eligible. Um, not everything furniture, as I said, is a soft cost that is ineligible. Um, so there is a formula. It's a It's a little bit complicated, but it's nowhere near as complicated, I think, as the MSBA formula. >> Um, I don't know if that answered your question.
>> It does. I I think Well, when you start to pull out when you start to fly up a little higher off the ground, and that is our job as the planning board, and thankfully when they started farming us out to all these different committees, it was it's a really good thing. And and Ken and I have done work together on the
rack. Um, and when you start to pull away from just this project and start thinking, okay, well, there's going to be phase two of our sewer system coming, what, you know, in a to be determined ask at a to be determined town meeting. Um, there is also going to be whatever
the school building committee decides to put forth. I'll just leave it there. Um, so in some ways, uh, what's good is that you're first compared to those other two. What's bad is that if you are not
transparent and clear about what reimbursement is and what it's being what how it's being treated and clearly you understand it. I'm not saying you don't but I'm just urging you to be as clear and as transparent as possible when you come to special town meeting
and any other future conversations about the money because the sewer the sewer ship has sailed. That is a terrible mangled analogy and god that was terrible. Uh and and it remains to be seen what the school building ship is
going to be. That has many chapters yet to be written. Um and but all but I I think it's totally reasonable certainly based on what we heard at the last special town meeting which had a lot of these issues coming before everybody for
their consent. Um, there are lots of people who are super concerned about all these asks lining up like planes trying to land at Logan Airport. And at some point there may be a decision that says you can't land here. So that's why I'm asking for the good of everything that
this is and for all the work that's being done. Um, the more and again I know you know this and then I'll be quiet. the more that you can really really really delineate down to the literal nitty-gritty of maybe handing something to people when they walk into town meeting to say this is what you're
voting for. This is the money that you're voting for and this is where it's going to and then this is how it's this is what's going to come back. Um I think all of these dominoes are starting to line up and I haven't even said the words muk yet. Now I have. So
all of these dominoes are right in front of us and you guys in some ways are the first one along with the sewer uh system phase one. So, I apologize, Madam Chair, for the long-winded comment, but it it can't go without saying that all of
these projects have to be thought about, not just on their own merits, but within the context of the taxpayer as well as the citizen and all of us that hopefully get to benefit from these things and knowing that there are lots of constituency constituencies in our town
that will have different points of view. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Madam Chair. >> I I appreciate the point. It's a It's a good one. It's well taken. And just to be clear, by town meeting, we'll have very clear ideas about what the numbers are and and we'll be able to explain
them. And I I agree with you, that's incredibly important for people to understand that. So, what we will by then have an estimate. We will have had time to process those numbers, work with the MBLC to understand exactly what the grant award is. Um there's also an
additional bonus amount which is a green incentive reimbursement. So, if we meet um certain thresholds and there are a couple of different compliance paths that we can choose, we'll pick up an extra I think $400,000 that is a reim a
straight reimbursement. Um and you know, we're compared to the other projects, we're a Cessna, not an Airbus. So, I'm hoping that we can slip in there, move a little quicker, but yeah. Well, I would just say we'll know by town meeting. >> I think we're also very fortunate as a town to get to work with you. And I only
say that because I don't know you, but I've been to the East Ham Library enough times to say I even said that a few years ago. I might have even said to Linda. I said, "Wow, wouldn't it be cool if the folks that were able to pull off the East Ham Library could do something in Yarmouth?" And yet here we are. And
so I would just urge anybody certainly I imagine most of the people in this room have been to the East Ham Library. Um, but anybody watching this meeting or have and if and if you haven't been to the East Ham Library, if you're trying to wonder like what is it that we're getting ourselves into, um, please do yourself the favor of going to the East
Ham Library the next time you're in East Ham. >> So, thank you for your work. >> Uh, Susan, >> uh, just a couple of clarifications. We are back at 25,000 square feet. >> We are at 25,300. Okay. Just briefly, what was what?
>> We're down to 25,000. Um what what brief was it some of the supports? What was eliminated from what we looked at two weeks ago? >> We eliminated one of the two 600 foot meeting rooms. >> Okay. >> So we still have >> one >> many meeting spaces in the proposed
library but we got rid of one. We felt they were if anything they were a little bit redundant and so we consolidated to one. >> All right. Packing total is 163. Is is that what the number you're using? >> No. Uh the total is the total on this
plan is 131. >> 131. >> The provision for an extra 38. >> That's that's where you get up to the 160. >> Right now you'd be asking for funding or the plan is for 131 spaces. That includes the the parking and back of the Macan building.
>> That does not it does not. >> So the the 19 spaces are in addition to the 131 on this plan. >> So the 48 spaces are not >> it is just 48 is just what's on the east side of MacArthur. Are you including that in the 131? You are. Who controls that parking?
>> I don't know. I would I mean, >> so we're assuming they're going to give it up to us. >> Well, no, we're we're saying we we're preserving those 48 spaces for to maintain whatever whoever is using them, okay, is going to continue to use them. >> That's fine. So actually for people that want to visualize it, I counted the
parking spaces at Shaws and 131 is almost double what's just so people have an idea of what it's going to look like. It will be almost double the size. So it's not that big, but visually they can get an idea of what they'd be looking at. Um and then um
I mentioned it before and I'll say it again. I think there should be serious consideration. And I know it's going to be expensive, but serious consideration doing solar panels. Um, you know, you've got two board select board members that are energy
supporters. >> It's the 21st century long-term. That's hugely important to the town because it helps defer the defay the cost of running the building. Um, we talked about it before. I know the building the bid package was solar panel ready but
not solar panels. I think I don't know how we do it. I know it adds costs, but I think in the long run that's a we ought to give serious consideration to uh a discussion about solar panels being added to the project. I think it makes just a huge difference. I also think it's a huge selling point, a positive
selling point, although it's it could be expensive. Um and I had one other thing, but I forget what it is. But that that those are my three big those are my three big in terms of solar. I mean our goal would also be to
get solar on the building you know in however we do that >> did wasn't there some reimburseable associated with solar >> so solar panels are reimburseable okay that they are an eligible cost so if they are part of the bid package they factor into the MLC's reimbursement >> okay
>> um we generally we don't see them in bid packages because owners don't want to buy them right away and they some of them want to lease it they don't want to own it >> uh we are doing a project in western mass right now where they decided to purchase the panels for the very reason I mentioned. They are reimbursed.
>> Um they were at a 75% reimbursement cuz it's a special case. They're very small town. >> Um and so that was a case where we installed them. The general contractor installed them. We are obligated to provide by code to provide a solar ready building. That's the minimum. That's the
kind of baseline now. >> Um we would hope that we can do better, but there are a lot of different ways to do solar. So we should talk about that. there there any many different scenarios for how solar gets on a building. Um and the tax incentives have changed. Um I
think now nonprofits are eligible for a tax credit whereas they didn't used to be. And so that has changed the calculus a little bit in terms of >> you know what makes sense for a particular municipality. But so we should definitely talk about it. >> Well, I know what the last thing was. If if Mark does send some sort of, you
know, memo, we could always send a letter from the board supporting Mark's memo. You know, if he if he comes up with a packing formula that is reasonable and they've discussed it with us, we could be supportive in that in that regard by supporting his memo if if if we decided to do something like that
rather than a direct letter to the board. We we could support whatever Mark wants to do with packing. >> I think the memo from Mark is what you're really looking for. you're looking for something from a town staff official in official capacity. Um, so I think that that would be sufficient.
>> Uh, Dra, >> Miss Gwin, >> I I think I don't have any questions. I think I'm just very very excited to see what you've done in this time and I was on the library planning committee and put a lot of uh effort into that first
proposal and it's very exciting to see it coming to fruition and you're doing a f fantastic job. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you >> Mr. Mr. Pendleton. >> How are you? >> Good. Thank you. These guys have already asked all my questions, but I do I want
to let you comment a little bit and the MBLC does have a a part of their program is um that the town and the group is responsible for some sort of fundraising to help offset some of the cost. Can you kind of talk about that and and how that
factors into how that will help us in terms with the taxpayer? >> Yeah, I I actually I know that they have that requirement. I don't know what the specifics of that requirement are. I don't know if it's a percentage, if it's a dollar amount, but they they do
require every um grant recipient municipality to do their own fundraising. So, um you brought up East Ham, that's a great example. East Ham Library set up a um a nonprofit foundation that headed up their private
philanthropy and raised money for the project. and that money um I believe they raised over 2 million. I can't remember what the >> two and a half >> two and a half. >> Um so they were they were very successful and that helps offset the town's obligation. So that's definitely something that that we see happening.
It's as as you said Tom, it's a requirement. Um I think the way that it happens varies from community to community, but um Situit also we worked with there was a foundation there. Um, some some do better than others, but um,
we support that effort in whatever way we can, too. And I mean, we had a number of meetings with the uh the East Ham Library Foundation and did a couple of fundraising events with them. And so, we we're happy to support that effort in whatever way we can, but it but it is a
requirement to offset the town's obligation. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, just to respond to Tom and to let you know, we as the library building committee cannot participate in that kind of fundraising. However, um, Linda
Kalan, Hannah, our library friend, has been researching and doing a lot of background work and in terms of how to establish a foundation that could do some fundraising. right
now she's kind of onewoman show. So we need to bulk up those that arm of our fundraising and we just can't participate. So we're aware of this. Uh we have an
amazing person working on it. She has lots of leads and I guess we're at like that beginning square that Matt showed you on the whole timeline as far as this fundraising, but we're very aware of it,
>> Mr. Smith. >> Yeah, no real go back. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. No real specific questions. I do want to touch on what Deedra said that amazing work what you've done so far. I did want to follow up though on the $400,000 green built building
threshold and kind of tie it into what Susan was comment about solar assuming that that would tie back into that threshold if solar was put onto this building and how much more is your estimate the construction cost to meet the green building threshold. Any ideas
on that? >> So, a couple of things. the I don't think that you would need to go so far as to put solar on the building in order to get this reimbursement from the state. I think the compliance paths are, you know, lead I think it's lead gold
certification which we could we could meet without solar on the roof if we were providing a solar ready building. Okay, so there are different ways to get there. If we put solar on the building, we're not going to get an extra $400,000. There's a cap on that reimbursement. Um, and I believe 400,000
is the max that that the town will get for that >> if we show compliance, which I think we will. Um, the generally the reimbursement covers the cost to pursue lead, not that you have to pursue lead.
Um, and then and then still pay some dividends to the town. Usually we we find that that exercise is about $100,000 in uh fees, you know, consulting fees to go through the whole process of of coordinating with USGBC
and all of the um the fees for submitting and uh uh the application fee and the review fees and all that. So that >> so to pursue lead for the 100 grand potentially reimburse me 400 from the state. Yeah, >> that's a win in my book. So,
>> right. >> Thank you. Great job. Thank you. >> Is is the is the gold is the the goal gold lead? Is that what your goal is for that building? Gold >> the I mean, we haven't set a target. I I think we if we are going to set a
target, I would set a target of lead gold. >> Maybe you could explain a little what exactly that means. I'm very familiar with what goes into that, but I don't think a lot of residents in particular understand what you have to do to get to gold and the benefits of getting to gold in terms of the environmental impacts.
>> Yeah, I mean lead um lead is one metric that that is used to measure sustainability. Um it is not the only one, but it is the most popular one. It's sort of the standard. >> Uh it's the one that's the most recognized. There are more now than
there used to be, but they they were the first. Um the US Green Building Council established this and and regulates it. Um there are uh four different levels. There's baseline certification, there's silver certification, gold
certification, and platinum certification. So gold is better than than the midpoint in their sort of larger framework of um of sustainability measuring sustainability. Um I I can't
tell you exactly what you have to do to get to gold, but it's it's a higher standard obviously than um than the baseline for lead. And the good news is that the Massachusetts Energy Code gets you a good bit of the way there already.
Massachusetts and the building materials get you a good way. >> Yeah. And it's I mean lead looks at all different things. It looks at the site. It looks at water consumption. It looks at daylighting. It looks at um energy use, occupant comfort, materials and
resources. Um there there many many categories that sort of factor in um uh when they when they do their classification. The goal is to make these buildings more more sustainable using less energy. >> That's right. >> And making them more that's the goal of
all of those categories. But that's and almost all public buildings now whether they're state, federal, libraries or whatever, people try to get them built in a sustainable manner so that the drain to maintain them, you can say to the citizens, this is what we're doing to save you money on maintenance and on
energy costs. So >> that's right. It's a it's it's as as as he said, it's a you know, it's a win-win to try to have these u meet these standards, >> right? >> Pays off. >> Anyone else? Tom, did did I cut you off
there? You're good. Okay. I I I just have a couple of questions. Matt, uh when you mentioned the green incentives, is that what you what we've been talking about here with solar and Okay, that's great. Um the look of the building. I'm not an
architect, although my brother is. Uh, but it's to me it's a Frank Lloyd Wrightish. It's not Cape Cottish, which in that corridor, if you were a motel or a hotel in the
HMOD one district, you would have to follow our architectural designs, which is Cape Cotti. And you know we and we do get to look at those. Um and we have client we've we've had not clients but uh proprietors up and
down the corridor who we have moved in that direction um to have it more Cape Cotti with small C's. Um in fact one housing project that just came before us
was very box-like very modernist. I my own opinion was a bit brutalist. Um they're not in the in play anymore because they're going to rethink what they want on the site to begin with. Um my my my
conflict here is that I really like it. You feel like you're in the wood, you know, again, it's very pretty. As Peter had said, you kind of in the woods, there's a lot of glass. Um, I I like the fact that it's uh the the roof line structure is very different. Um, but I'm
just thinking outside the box here about all the other components of the Route 28 corridor where we sit here and say not Cape Cotty enough. Go back and do something different. And I'm wondering if you got
any Was there any back and forth on the design? I guess I guess that's where I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going because at this point there's no way you can change it. You don't have time. But I'm just curious as to how you landed on that particular more modern open uh design.
>> Um I I mean I'll let Judy talk about the from the committee's perspective. I'll give you my perspective which is we're a firm that does contemporary work and so that's our that's where we start. Um, but but we also take context very
seriously. And so I guess my question back to you would be how do you define Cape Cod with a small C? Um, because you know we are we work in Massachusetts so we work on historic properties. We work
in historic contexts, historic districts all the time. Um and you you know we we need to be and and we are genuinely sensitive to those environments but even in a non-historic context context is
important and at the same time this is an important civic building for the town. It shouldn't look like the motel next door. It shouldn't look like you know a school. It should be distinctive but it should also work with you know
work in the context of everything else. So we do that uh sometimes through scale. You know we don't want it to be too big uh in a context. East Ham is I'll use that as another uh example here because that was a
17,000 500 ft² addition to a 300 ft historic building in a residential neighborhood on Cape Cod and it's a contemporary building but it's a contemporary building that has exposed wood structure, wood shingle cladding, wood
siding and so materiality plays a big part in sort tying that into the Cape Cod context. It doesn't look like the houses, doesn't look like the historic church next door, but it fits in its scale. It fits in its materiality. It's
a it's approachable. Um, and I think those are things that we see as possible here that it doesn't have to look like everything else on Route 28. It should be, we think, distinctive. Um, but it should also fit. It shouldn't feel too
alien. And I think some of that is material, some of it scale. Um, as I said, we are contemporary architects. That's sort of our default setting. Um, but but we also want to be sensitive to that context. It's also it has the
benefit of being a little bit tucked away, right? It's it's visible from 28, but there is a little bit of freedom that we think um is afforded by the fact that it has this kind of veil in front of it. Um and
I think that can work to its advantage. Um we are anticipating this as a mass timber building. So that means 100% woodframed exposed like Eastam Library actually isn't 100%. There's some steel in there. This would be um all exposed
wood structure. Um I don't know if anyone's familiar with the Norwell Public Library that was completed in 21. Um that's a similar u a similar type of construction. Um it's very sustainable.
It's nice to look at. Um there are studies about occupant comfort in buildings that are all wood um with, you know, great benefits. So we we see that as a real and and there's been a lot of movement in that direction in in the
industry uh in general. Um so that's that's sort of our perspective. But as I said, this is the beginning of design. We will have opportunities to continue that conversation um at other meetings with with you to
debate uh the the you know how well we tie into into the cape. The other thing I'll I'll leave with is the Cape actually has a great modernist tradition. Um if you go back and you look in the 50s and 60s um all over the Cape there are these incredible houses
by Walter Gropius and others that were practicing in Boston at the time. And so that's also part of the Cape history. Um and it's important I think for people to remember that. >> I appreciate that. I and I asked that question only um not because I I I
personally don't don't like it. I really like it. Um I really like it a lot. Uh but I I'm just kind of sensing that there might be questions that come up because we have acted on other projects on the cor in the corridor and moved
them in the direction which we think improved it. I I'll use Yarmouth Commons and Yarmouth Gardens as two perfect examples of what came in as a box and our town planner and others moved them to have setbacks, to have dormers, to
have roof lines that were different, to have columns. Um so, you know, so we have moved different different projects um in ways that we think improve the corridor. Um I'm not saying in any way that this wouldn't uh but I think we
it's just a question I think that may come up that may it may very well come up. >> It may come up fully expected >> and it has come up. People have heard words like modern and >> well it's going to sit next it's going to sit next to the school. >> Yes.
>> Um and across from the from town hall >> and it is something that we've we have kicked around and initially we said how about some bricks? Yeah, >> could it could be a brick building. >> We're not there yet. You know, we're not
there yet with So, the other thing I think has happened on the committee and this might be something that we need to communicate more clearly to the community. is that that experience of
being in that building and having a book and looking out at the trees that that is so valuable and that that takes so much of that site and maximizes
that experience while providing all the services the library provides. though that um maybe the inside is really important. >> Yeah. More so than the outside. I hear you. I hear you. And and but and on that
I I I I think it's wonderful. Um and that's I've always been impressed by how architects think uh because I have no idea how my brother thinks. But um the fact that you could you you saw something in the in the the pit
>> in the woods. >> Yeah. That's a word we have not used. >> We haven't used that one. >> Naming rights for the pit. We we could make some money there. But the fact that you could see that that could be a positive thing um is is just remarkable to me. And to be able to salvage as many
of those trees as possible is is really important. Um I just have one other silly question, but um I am a fan of libraries. Um, and having lived in, uh, New York City, uh, the Lions are my favorite. Um,
>> where are the stacks? Are we still going to have stacks of books or are they in the basement that you can call up electronically? I mean, we're still going to have Isn't where are we moving modernly for stacks? Because if you go to the South Armouth Library, nobody's
walking at in this in the in the stacks. So, I mean, >> they take up so much room. >> They do take up room and and the >> Excuse me. Would it be possible to see the slide? >> Yeah, actually showing the building. >> I looked at them. I mean, it's a whole building as he's explaining it.
>> If you put up the floor plan, I can show you. I mean, you'll >> um >> a few slides back. >> That's it. >> Yeah. There. There they are. >> So, I'm gonna risk using this pointer.
>> There we go. >> These are the stacks. >> Okay. So, the these are stacks. These are stacks. These are stacks. >> Children stacks. >> The these are the adult stacks. And there's seating in between. Children also have stacks. What's important to mention though is that um visibility is
really important in public libraries. We want the staff to be able to see everywhere. >> Circulation desk has to see be able to see everything. >> That's right. And so the circulation desk is in the middle right here. And all of these stacks are four shelves high. So you can see over all of them.
When you're at the circulation desk or when you're walking into the building, you can see from one end to the other. Um where we have bookcases along walls, they tend to be higher, seven shelves high. Um but when they're in the middle of a room, we try to keep them low. It's better for occupants. It's better for
staff. Um, and that's that's really kind of the MBLC's starting point. And so it's been a lot of back and forth to make sure that we are able to accommodate the collection plus projected growth of the collection in the shelving that we're showing here and
also balance that against sight lines and amount of seating. So, it's a there's some push and pull there, but there's still plenty of books. Um, the stacks are not closed stacks. They're open. Um, anybody can go and get a book.
It's just the technology of that them taking up so much room and other libraries and my other favorite library happens to be in Austin which is ridiculously unbelievable. Uh it's a it's a fabulous library. Yeah. Um uh but
the the whole notion that it consumes so much space when they could be in the basement and there could be a a trolley like they use at the New York City library on 42nd Street. You know, bring it up and you get your book. I mean, I just I'm just wondering if MLBC is
moving in that direction >> in any case. I mean, it sounds like they still want to see a plan like this. >> Yeah. Not for small town libraries. I mean, an urban library like >> of course um like the New York Public Library. I I don't I mean the Boston Public Library
has some closed stack special collections and things like that. But um for for a library like this, for a town library, first of all, people want to be able to see books and browse books, not everybody necessarily knows when they go to the library what book they want. They
part of the joy of going to a library is sort of seeing what's there and discovering something that you may not have known. Um, it's also a staffing issue. If if all the stacks are only controlled by staff, it puts a huge burden on staff and and generally
speaking, staffs are already, you know, smaller than they should be at most of these libraries. So, um, so I think it's it's a little bit of of both of those things. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh, any other questions from the board? I don't want to keep you any any longer. I want to thank you uh
so much and thank you Judy and the committee for all your hard work. We really we really appreciate it and anything we can do to support uh the project, you know, let us know. >> Uh >> we appreciate you guys taking the time. >> Next big step is is your uh getting
together with Mark Grills. I think he will be a real source of comfort. Um uh I'm not sure many people would say that, but that's I'm glad to hear that. >> Metaphorical comfort. metaphorical >> source of anxiety about parking spaces.
>> Okay. I think he might say that, but I didn't think other people. >> Yeah, he'll be a calming presence regarding parking spaces. I hope. Anyway, thank you so much. I appreciate >> Thank you all. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. [Music] >> Excellent. Thanks.
>> Thank you. >> You on our agenda is the draft short-term rental study. Uh yesterday uh Dedra, myself and Tom uh
attended the affordable housing trust meeting uh where the UMass Amherst Donahghue Institute uh presented uh had a presentation on their draft short-term rental study which Kathy has provided to all of us in
our packets. >> I didn't provide the study. It's not It's kind of draft more internal looking at first before being distributed. >> Did everyone got a copy of it though, right? Got electronically. >> Electronically, I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. Um,
so I I'd like to open a discussion about it. Um, and I I'll apologize in advance. This this study has got me kind of flumxed a little bit because I went back
and read the the the um the contract as to why we're doing it. Um and the way in the presentation yesterday was I thought very well done by UMass, but I'm still
not unsettled but confused. Uh it seems to me the study has two parts. one a really terrific demographic profile of the town >> that I had never seen before. >> Really good. And our expert here, I would I'm going to go to you soon
because it was like your name was written all over it. Um they take that and then I'm looking for some correlation between that and the second heart second part which are all the recommendations and they it felt to me like they were it's two separate
reports. I could have written the se the second half on the recommendations. Those caps and and percentages they they they stand alone. They have nothing to do with the profile of the town. And that was that was where I I I was very
as Kathy, you know, I I was um fumbling like I am now yesterday uh trying to explain my my uh uh just The two aren't the two don't seem to me to be connected. Um, and I'm not sure if
I read correctly the the purpose of the >> the engagement whether it was >> I mean it was the town of Yarmouth acting through the municipal affording housing trust has engaged the university to conduct a study on various aspects of short-term rentals
>> and seasonal housing >> in the town of Yarmouth with the goal of providing reasonable and actionable recommendations to minimize costs and maximize benefits. of what >> I'm not I'm trying not to be critical of
UMass because I think there are pieces of this report that are really quite good and informative. I I I just don't know where it's going to help us in terms of uh our our work that we need to do before special town meeting a year
from now >> when the STR expires. I think >> so. I'd like to Kathy uh you think that was one thing the meeting. So >> yeah, I think that I didn't run the meeting. I ran the Zoom. >> Yeah, you did. >> It's important, but it's a little bit
different. I think Mark Forest did have a question about, you know, clearly identifying what the problem is and then targeting strategies that would address that very specific problem. And I think that that might be what you're talking about. they've identified some some data but they haven't like clearly identified
necessarily the specific Yarmouth concerns and then the specific strategies that they would recommend. I think they gave a lot of good strategies and I think they did a great job of looking at other communities and I think we can dig even deeper with the links of different communities that they were
talking about. Um, but I'm not sure that there was any direct correlation of saying, "Oh, yeah, we need to put caps on on these uh limiting short-term rentals right away because of X, Y, and Z." Um, you know, they are limited to a certain amount by the data that's available. And I think you'll find that throughout the report where they're kind
of saying, you know, we had a small sample here and we're not sure we got all of the data there. Um, and that type of thing. So, they're they're a little bit limited on that. Um, but I I think that's was basically Mark's comment as well. Mark Forest's comment about it.
>> Yeah. Um, so I'd like Deedra, I'd like I'd like your com you were there and you I know you dug deep into it. >> Well, I I really loved the data. I mean, it was really it really did speak to me and I thought they did a fantastic job because there are so many groups that
don't really understand how to process those databases and they did a great job and I thought that Kathy and Joanne and Mark Forest and you know there were really good comments about you need to set the goal and the objectives that it's not there. they aren't tied
together. And uh one thing, you know, as looking at all the different solutions or possibilities that they proposed, I started realizing that, you know, I've been in so many short-term rentals on the Cape in my from from my childhood in
a huge extended family where some people had a house and some people rented and all that. And then I was a seasonal employee for all through college and then back with my own family renting two week rentals all the time. And I think what this is lacking is a little bit of
a little bit more discussion of the era when Yarmouth had the most hotel rooms on the Cape. Everybody keeps mentioning that, but I haven't seen the numbers or the issues. But in all the times that I was renting cottages, you couldn't rent
it for three or four nights. You if you had to get weeks and if you needed three or four nights, you'd go to a motel. And I think that that's where the current Airbnb mode is really changing things that there the one of their charts
showed that the average stay is four nights and that was not the kind that was never ever the case. And that if we some somehow could work in a comparison to the era when there were lots of motel rooms and there were also lots of big
families and now we don't have either of those quite as much. But somehow I think that that might explain if they are a problem. But I think that's what Mark Forest brought up. Are they really a problem? And I think that's something
that the tourism economy is so central to the town >> that I think that that there there's no way that they've defined it as a problem. >> And I'm not sure if I'm >> Yeah. No. >> Um
>> Sue, you want to go first? >> Actually, I did a I Kathy, I told you I had done sever I have about a page and a half of questions and comments. I sent it to my office to get printed and of course the internet went down today. I couldn't print anything. I couldn't get my email to print it, but I will make sure you get it. Um, similar to your
reaction, I thought I couldn't figure out I always thought the research question was supposed to be, do does a short-term rental program impact uh long-term housing or whatever what do they call you, year- round housing. >> I don't think they made that link. In
fact, if anything, um I think they one of the conclusions they came to was that we're in pretty good shape. Yeah. >> Um, one of the big problems was some was summer employees and we took care of the summer employees by by the by you know our program to um so I that's the
impression I got was after having read all the I said well you know we're not we're not such a bad place here you know we've done a pretty good job. Um, but I'm not and I think that's what they that whole study was intended to do is because there's a whole theory sort of
the whole Nucket syndrome do these short-term rentals impact on the ability to provide long long and if you're looking at just at Yamoth the answer is not not in our community. That's the impression I got. I just don't if they were trying to make that case I don't think they did and that's because the
data said it's just not there. Um, lots of times they said we're very similar to Bible, very similar to Dennis. um we don't have a huge problem. I just was kind of as I rolled through it, I said, "Well, this is not so bad. This is not so bad." Um but I was never quite sure
what the whole thing was supposed to do. I always I thought it was supposed to be does the and then the other thing though they did make a good point though the impact that the that the internet has made on real estate renting and the rent whole rental process and their inability to get good data because some of these
sites that they you know the data is not good and they're trying to make some projections based on data that's really not good. Um but it's changed the whole rental market on people do a lot of the stuff now online. >> Yeah. >> And some of the stuff that's online does not get recorded anywhere. You just do
it online and the person you're renting from doesn't report anything to Mac doesn't. So there's a whole sort of black hole out there. Not I don't think it's hugely significant in Yamoth. I think the numbers in Yamoth were pretty good about people reporting. I think we had 1400 units and I think just under a
thousand were reporting. So that's not so bad. Um but that was it. I just didn't think it was as um researchy as I thought it was going to be. I didn't see any conclusions that I thought were compelling to say, "Oh, you've got to do
something. You got to change something if we if we, you know, um reestablish or renew whatever we have to do in November of 2026. Is that when it comes out?" 2026. Yeah. >> Yes. >> That program seem our program seems to
be working. >> I think they like to provide the data and let you guys interpret it. >> Yeah. >> I think there's some of that. What I read is like the town may want to look at this, the town may want to investigate this. So, they're just kind of presenting the information and you can kind of decide. There's no
conclusion that I think you're ever going to get them to say short-term rentals don't seem to be a huge problem in the town of Yarmouth. >> That's the conclusion I drew. >> Conclusion you might get from the data, but their report, their consulting for Provincetown, though did make a conclusion, right? >> And the conclusion was it's not a big
deal. >> Okay? >> They had a lot of if if you do this then this if you do. They didn't. They just kept giving you if statements with this result, but no real strong recommendation on where to do and where you are. >> I mean, that's that's what I kept
reading into it. And I I agree. It's part one. It's part two, but there's no bridge. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I just was, Madam Chair, I was just was going to touch on the on the hotel piece for a second because that was my hat for almost 30 years running hotels in the town of
Yarmouth and this the whole short-term market absolutely has changed the the hotel world you know not just in Yarmouth but everywhere >> and you know the people are shorter stays that absolutely is number one you know the days of coming to the Cape for
a week that's changed years ago you know they used to be 7-day stays in the hotel world. Now it is 2, three day stays in the hotel world and four and five day stays in the the short-term market. People's traveling habits have changed. They don't want to stay in a hotel room.
So that's affected how hotels can be profitable and stay in business. That's why a lot of the smaller hotels on 28 that couldn't cut it as a hotel are renting their rooms to >> employees because that's where they see the market at. I mean, if you're a hotel
and selling the right room in the right location at the right price, you're going to be busy still. Some people don't want to deal with, you know, getting up in the morning and making breakfast or, you know, cleaning a room, you know, making their own bed, whatever. That's why you go to a hotel to get away from that stuff. Um, but the
short-term market absolutely has changed the rental world. And you're not going to put Genie back in the bottle. It's, you know, how you manage it. You know, you touched on Provincetown. You know, they made a lot of recommendations and Provincetown reacted to it. They have limited short-term rentals in certain
parts of the town because it was getting oversaturated because it had changed the whole rental market, the housing market. You know, I did real estate and sold a couple properties up there and the market exponentially was driven by the fact that you couldn't get inventory because people were using their home as
a money maker. >> Yeah. >> And that's, you know, is is it a problem in Yarmouth? I can't tell you that sitting here tonight, but I do think we got to take a good hard look at these recommendations as a committee and think about what would be best to preserve the character
of Yarmouth, keep the hotel industry in this town robust and make the right decisions because, you know, you touched on it. There's 1400. Is that the number that's in here? >> I think that was >> that was what they see. That's the number that do has registered, but they
don't know whether people are no longer renting it and have have just not taken their name off. I asked on the ground. I asked >> I'd like to tell you that that number I believe is way more than 1400. It probably is. We have 933 that registered with the board of health.
>> And that's great. I'm glad there's 933 >> honest citizens that are doing it the right way. I really mean that. But I also believe that it's that number 1400 is light. >> Oh is low. >> Yes. >> Okay, Peter. >> Thank you. Thank you for the email today. That was an eye opener.
>> Um I just I just can't believe this cost $85,000 if these numbers are correct. Is that >> what >> is this? What is that right? >> This the study >> fixed price for this inclusive labor materials and travel is 86,700. >> Oh, I don't know. >> Yeah. Well, that was part of what you
sent us. I don't remember. >> So, yeah. I mean, and I mean to a a bit of everybody's point, I mean, short-term rentals weren't mentioned until page 30, >> right? >> And and the front half of this was pretty, but that's what they do. I mean, they're a data driven company.
>> So, you would expect to get that first 30 pages. It's just a matter of getting out of the next 30 what can help us make a decision. And there's just not enough information there to help us make a decision >> if we have to make a decision at all. or use it as support to make the
decision decision. And to Ken's point, I I mean, I asked him at our meeting, can you sort of correlate the impact on uh rooms tax, you know, either collections from hotels? Has has it gone down? You know, are short-term rentals taking away from hotels? What are the metrics we
look at? >> You talk to the owners. Can can you give us a list of who you spoke to just so that when we have a meeting here, we we we know who's coming to the mic, right? >> We have a context of where they're speaking from. the same. They put all those, you know, you know, Bobby Jay said, "Oh, I'm worried about this or
that." And I'm like, "Well, does he own a motel?" Because I'd like the >> understanding of where his comments are coming from, you know, the context of where the comments are coming from. So, I hopefully they can maybe add some of that, Kathy. I don't know if they can tell us who they spoke to or,
>> you know, that would be helpful to know. >> Yeah, there there's a list of people that they I think they spoke to. Mary Wagan has that list. All right. >> Um I I don't think they talked to any homeowners who rent. >> What does that mean?
>> I sorry. What does that mean? >> Me. I'm going to leave for a month. >> Short-term rental that rent their own house. >> Do a short-term rental at my house operator. >> I don't think they talk to anyone >> who is who who is a short-term rental if you want to put it that way. >> No.
>> And I think you're those are huge like you that's a huge opinion that we haven't heard here. Everybody's, "Oh, I'm going away for a week. I better rent the house out." It's It's really common. >> Yeah. The other thing, Pete, uh, I'm jumping ahead and interrupting you here, Peter, but what I thought today when you
sent the email with the Airbnb data, correct link >> and I opened it up. >> There were 96 homes. Right. >> I would love to see a crosswalk of those homes and addresses
>> to what's on the registry. >> Mhm. I mean >> because I my sense is there there's going to be some gaps. >> Yeah. >> Because there were 900 on just the Airbnb site. >> Right. I think that link was simp that whatever that air
>> air >> but it is only Airbnb. >> It's not Venmo. >> VBO. >> Not Venmo. the RBO >> RBO. >> So they used um AirDNA is another >> and there's air ROI >> which is what I first sent I think today
which was cited in the Nantucket article >> and both of them have I think different the data is probably maybe very similar or the same but presented differently. I mean that second link I sent today that Kathy sent back you know good data link >> has a lot of what was already in our
report you know in this STL report. So, I mean, it was out there. It's not as though Donna Hugh, you know, had to do too much to get some of that, you know. So, it was there. >> We just need to find a way to make it useful to help us make a decision. Um, >> I think you asked good questions in your
email as well that I gave everyone a copy of, >> right? Because that's been one one of my questions I I'd love to know the answer to and and that second website, I saw I saw some of the houses that were listed there today and I know they sold within the last couple of years. So I'm just wor I mean it would be great to say oh no the the last you know
>> we know Yarmouth has the lowest median sale price on the K for homes or it did at the end of 24 and it probably hasn't changed at all. um where houses house I mean one of those sites tells you air ROI Yarmmouth is
ranked sixth in Massachusetts you know ahead of us was I think Dennis Nantucket um Cambridge Boston so we're we're we're identified as one of the I think was eighth >> one of the one of the top 10 towns out
of 351 if we want to look at it that way that um promote being promoted as a good place to come and buy a house and turn it into a short-term you know, and here's all the metrics. Here's all the data to do that. Here's our average occupancy. And this is all taken from the sites that do the
marketing and and the rental. Right. >> Did you notice one of the major reasons? >> Low regulation. >> Regulation. >> That's right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Low regulation. >> Our houses being purchased, taken off the market, and turned into short-term rentals. They're certainly being
promoted as such or Yarmouth is being promoted as such. >> Right. >> And is that a concern? I mean, are we taking I mean, is it you know, are did we lose 10 or do we lose 50? >> I mean, lose I mean, were there five were there, you know, a couple of dozen
houses priced at four? You can't get a house under 500 now. 500, you know, 475, 550, 650 that could have went to a first-time home buyer >> or a small family. Yep. >> That were scooped up and turned into a short-term rental
>> because it's so easy to do. It's not I shouldn't say it's easy to do. There's a lot of work to it, but it's certainly made to look easy and a lot of people are doing it, you know. >> Mhm. >> So, >> and the other thing I was thinking of yesterday is
uh those property owners here, we know if they are not residents because they have to pay a personal property tax. So I was hoping that there'd be some again crosswalk between all those
residences on the assessor has this you know where are the where are the homes where are the households and who's paying personal property taxes because if you're not a registered if you're not a resident here you have to pay it. You
have to it's nominal uh it's a nominal tax. I mean, I paid it when I was living in New York and had a home here. Uh, but there is a record of it. So, where is that database, you know, and how can we get at that? >> I thought they did do that.
>> I I didn't assessor the assessor's the addresses that they got, I thought, from the do to the assessor's database. And that's why they were finding that there weren't that many >> um it was about corporate. They they had a whole they had a whole
page on what they thought and they found only 19 or so that were corporately thought were corporate. Um and you know you could whatever they were but >> um if I were to look on the list I could
look up my dear friend who lives on Fallen's Pond who lives in Cambridge >> you know >> and who rents her house. Yeah. >> Is she on the list? They did say that the vast majority of um uh they may not live on the Cape, but they live in Massachusetts.
>> The vast majority of people that that have two Yes, they do. So that's that's that's one thing um which I thought was interesting. And then the whole corporate thing, there weren't that many in that many. >> That is one area where they said that is not an issue for us. >> Yeah.
>> Uh I I hope that I hope that's true. >> Yeah. Now there are a couple of companies not necessarily corporate but companies like um Delmare Picassa you know they're they they they're very well run business company business and I
think they had 14 rentals in Yarmouth they were the number one >> license I don't know they every property is probably individually licensed so it's unlike a corporate that would you know license them under their corporation or something but >> um Vicassa was another one. Yep. They're
right down the street here. Yeah. >> So there >> there's a handful. >> There's a handful. >> There's a handful in here. >> Peter, are those databases that you use? Are they proprietary that you've bought access to? >> The links I sent you are out there. >> They're out there and then they're available. >> I don't know about the
>> I think AirD you have to pay for. >> Yeah, they said that was proprietary, >> but you can log in and pay a fee and you can get access to No at one level you know we we live in a capitalist society and we we all benefit from that and our culture and our society housing has got
like two faces. It's an opportunity to make money but it's also a human issue of a place to live and this is where the two of them are clashing at the macro level is the ability of people make money from housing you renting it and all and the need for the need for the
human dynamic which we need. And when you do the corporate piece or the money, that's what capitalism they're going people will try to make money and you can't blame them. If you can make $5,000 a week renting out your garage, go for it, you know, because that's the
way our society works. So, this is at the macro. It really is an interesting conversation because where do you where do you draw the line and and you know say to someone you can't make can't make can only make X. >> Yeah.
versus how do we how do we accommodate people that need someplace to live, a reasonable place to live? >> Well, I used this analogy yesterday um when they got to the recommendations uh and you know the recommendations on uh
uh limits. So, I I defi I I described it as a box. You know, short-term rentals have got these boundaries here in Yarmouth, and you're asking us to consider these recommendations that shrink that box or make it tighter. Does
that out of that does does housing pop out? Yeah. >> Does a house pop out for someone who needs it? I'm not sure. >> I'm not sure. What might pop out is a benefit to the hotels, >> right? >> That could definitely happen. You start
to shrink that down. maybe um uh in the offseason. I think our hotels are doing pretty well during the height of the season. I don't know. >> Yeah, >> I don't know how they're I think they are. >> Um but that was a so all of the those
recommended strategies seem to me to >> somewhat to be somewhat constraining. Um and and my question that for us I guess to consider is is this a problem that requires us to look at additional
constraints on this um and because we need to think about this going forward to special town meeting. We need to have an amendment of some kind on this and so we need to start thinking about how we want to shape it. >> Why do we need an amendment? >> Because it expired.
>> Oh, I thought we could just renew it without an amendment. Is that Do we need to >> Well, we need to take action on it. >> Yes. I thought you need action. Okay. Okay. >> Some kind of action. >> Can I ask an action question? >> No action. >> Just let it expand. I don't think >> But that would not be a good idea.
>> Madam Chair, >> yes, Mr. I guess I have a process question here about this, which is this is a draft. >> Yep. >> This draft lives at the affordable housing trust. >> Yes. So, are they looking for some sort of response, a formal response from us,
Deerra, or And if so, okay. And then even if we send them something, um, where are they in their timeline? And when does this when does this become final? And then what does that even mean? And then what happens to it? >> I >> besides the fact that we have a thing
that we have to reckon with on our own timeline. I'm just trying to understand. >> We don't we don't know that. >> Okay. Um, we do know one thing that they are pushing to go to the select board >> soon. I thought that's what I thought I heard. Is there a date? >> December 16. >> Is there a date? >> What?
>> Yeah. >> Draft or with a final or do they have to vote to recommend it or >> Kathy? I I Kathy, if I'm remembering, Mary was moving to connect back with them. My understanding from the end of that meeting was that um I said I had
some comments that I wanted to and I knew that the planning board had some comments and that um a smaller subgrouping of like Bob Lton, Bob Written, myself and Mary were going to get together and review all of the comments to see what we would then give
to um you down here. So we weren't like giving them all this this misdirection. Go over here and then somebody else say go over here and go there. to kind of come up with a a coalesed message to them of what we were looking for for modifications. Uh Mary's been out sick, so I haven't been able to touch um touch
base with her on that. Um but I think the key is is I I think um like exactly what Peter did with his email and you had some edits and um send me something and then I'll distribute it to the this group and then we can kind of have a
discussion and and talk about it. Um, >> but it sounds like, if I'm hearing you correctly, there's only a week or so, maybe 10 days. I don't I don't recall that. >> They're going to be at the select board in two weeks. >> I don't recall. I may I may have misunderstood. They were talking about their next meeting,
>> which that's their next meeting. That's their next meeting. >> Their next meeting. I'm sorry. >> Next meeting. >> That is definitely the select board. >> No, the housing trust. >> It also is the next meeting of the select. It also >> That's not the community housing committee that I'm on. So, I'm not involved in >> Oh, you're not on the housing trust. That's right. the housing trust. So, it
gets kind of confusing because the the people move around on all of it. And I know Mary has mentioned a few times that it's the affordable housing trust that paid for this. >> Well, so then just to continue, Madam Chair, if I can on the process itself, if we're working backwards from, let's say, a November 26 special town meeting,
>> we're working backwards. When does this become final? January, February, I don't know who controls when it becomes final. And then you know we just have to think about our timelines. >> I I think we're what we want to do is as Kathy has suggested uh this has been I
think a a a very good u discussion. >> Um but I and we all have we all come from different places. I mean we have an expert on hotels. We have an expert here on the American Community Survey. Um we
have you know General Services Administration sitting right here. Real estate. Don't forget this guy right here. >> Real estate. Um, >> this guy. >> Oh, yeah. And that guy. >> That guy who gives us secret codes to get into Airbnb sites. >> Oh,
>> where I can spy on my neighbors. Um, >> I was I was I was amazed, Peter. I pressed that button. >> It was a link. Madam Chair, let's not let's not mischaracter let's not mischaracterize codes. >> You can go on it yourself. You know, >> codes launch a nuclear weapons.
strike whatever I just said this like signal our own signal gate >> he's showing his sources like a good college paper >> strike the source let's do let's do as Kathy has asked and and uh you know try to formalize your comments and she can
be our voice at this subgroup >> uh I think >> the clearer you are the better >> yeah and I I think the tone of our comments are very different than what we heard yesterday. >> Uh and I appreciate the cander here
because it's really important. Uh I will I will I I will generalize the comments yesterday as everyone was very complimentary. >> Of course they would be right. And so I
I am really pleased with the cander here and I think we should you know carry that through in terms of our comments to Kathy. I think that's important. Uh there was one table if I if I could ask you to look at table four
which is a matrix that lists it's way in the back page 61. table four lists the you know the possible things that you can do to SDRs and then you know all the things uh that it might affect is one one column is
missing and Mary brought it up yesterday and it was on my list there's nothing about STR revenues to us >> whether it you know positive or negative >> and so I drilled down on the very first column which was you know beneficial to
housing I've said who said I I don't see any evidence >> was one of my comments. No data. >> I didn't see any evidence. >> It was a conclusion. There was no data to support that conclusion. >> So anyway, if you could focus on that, >> I thought I thought that and if that table becomes,
you know, out there permanent. It's a report that the town has. I >> I think I I I'm concerned about that. I'll just say I'm concerned about that. I would read >> because I don't think that that >> I'd read the text too because that tries to explain >> above the table. >> It does. It does.
>> Below the table >> and it it but no one's going to read the text, Kathy. Someone's going to pick the pick the table and even though the text above says it kind of ignore all of those things we put in the table because we really don't know. >> Um it doesn't matter. The table is
what's going to get launched. >> Maybe you don't have the table. >> Maybe you don't have the table. And I mean and and in that table think you know tourism workforce. What is that? >> What is that? >> What is that? >> What does that have to do with the title of the article which is short-term >> right
>> rental report? >> That's that's a that's somebody else's report. >> I I couldn't agree with you more, Peter. >> It's not going to be affected by short-term rentals. >> No. So anyway, that just if you could I I again I appreciate everyone's cander.
Um and and and Kathy will be our voice. >> Yeah. Maybe if I could get him by Monday, that would be good because I don't know when they're going to schedule this meeting. >> And I'll I'll send over some armor for you. Uh >> bulletproof vest or something. Um anyway, >> I think you guys are looking at it more
closely because you know that you guys are going to be the ones who are going to have to take this and interpret it in some way. Where's the gaps in in identifying which of these things are actually going to help us? But one of the things that was discussed at the um affordable housing uh trust meeting was applying for a DTA grant through the
Cape Cod Commission and the possibility of maybe trying to extend, you know, get if if this doesn't answer everything, maybe they can uh work we can work with the commission. They can delve deeper into some of these suggestions and some of this data and help us formulate some ideas. >> It's DTA.
>> Oh, it's a grant program. >> It's a grant program. Every year they you can apply for grants. >> Yeah. They don't have a ton of money and they have like $194,000. They wanted to do it for that and then also for um getting more investigating into seasonal communities, the benefits,
the implications and um you know the accessing I think some of the funding that might have might come out of that. Um so that might be able to help us. So may the comment I made at the affordable housing trust is well that work's not going to get done until the end of next year and we got this special town
meeting coming up. So maybe the special town meeting the punting it might be seeing if we can't extend it a year identifying that we've got this study we're working with the commission we are heavily into uh investigating this. So the the the key may not be to to have a necessarily a full amendment that we can
do if we don't feel comfortable with it because we feel like we need more information but maybe just extending the sun. I don't think I I guess my only concern is whether there's a problem with the AG's office of saying, "Well, this is the second time you've extended it and it's been four years and blah
blah blah blah." Um, but we've also been busy on the local comprehensive plan. It took a while to get this report done. It's going to take a while to to then digest this and get the public outreach and talk to people about it. >> Madam Chair, can I ask one follow-up question? I'm just again I'm trying to be the ghost of Christmas future here
and I don't even celebrate Christmas but I but I appreciate it and I'm trying to imagine us in September having a public hearing on whatever it is that we think we should do. And I think any reasonable citizen would because this document would then be a
huge part of anybody who wants to come ready to attend the public hearing and voice their opinion. Yet, if this if this study continues down the road that it's on, regardless of the next, let's say, two or more weeks worth of work,
then I'm not sure what good it's going to do us when we get to September. Again, I'm just I I'm not trying to be contrarian. I I'm just trying to think backwards. >> Not to mention the other conversations we need to have as as this board before
we even say this is what we like to have a public hearing about. >> Right. >> I I and and I totally respect what Kathy's saying about the AG. But at the same time, I just don't understand how we can possibly do anything other than say we'd like to extend the sunset. I
I'm just again very apologize that I'm talking about this now, but there I haven't read it to be fair. I have not read it as intensely as everyone here and that's okay because there's seven of us and everybody has to be in the same place at the same time about where they are on every certain topic. I have certainly read it, but I always jump to,
well, what are we going to do with it? And and what does the not just the AG, but what do the town and the pe the people of our town expect? Like you said, Madam Chair, when we get to next November, >> they're going to have a lot of questions that we don't have the answers. >> And then we're going to be sitting in a in a public hearing that we're going to call saying, "We don't know. We don't
know. We don't know." And then they're going to say, "Well, who signed this contract for8 $85,000?" And then we have to answer that question. >> Not us. >> Wasn't us. >> I understand. Yes, I know what we're going to say. I'm just saying I that's why I'm so fascinated about where this goes from a
draft to a you know I feel like I feel like schoolhouse rock. Where is this going from a how does this become a law? I know it's not a law. Well, maybe we can between now and whenever kind of get a sense of a pathway to special town
meeting where um Kathy and I can kind of think about h how all this time frame might work out and working backwards from that um >> and are there other issues that we may want to have on the special time meeting warrant besides this one? Sorry. >> Well, accessory dwelling units is out
there as a huge >> ought to be done. >> You know, it's empty. There's nothing in that bowl and we need to fill that bowl. So, >> okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. >> Okay, we good with that, Kathy? Okay. Um, number three, special town meeting.
Uh, Kathy, you want to just uh run through brief summary? Everything was >> I thought we did well. Thank you everybody. >> Yes, we um obviously we got approved for the local comprehensive plan. I have reached out to Khloe at the commission
um what about what we need to do next and it really we need to get a letter from the town clerk that goes to them with the certified that it was passed and adopted at at town meeting and then they will take that information and then look at scheduling um the public hearing before the commission. My understanding
is it's not um it's not not super detailed presentation that we give. It's more of a kind of an overview that obviously are interested more in our public participation and and that type of thing. Um I've asked for some examples on some other communities and what they've done so that we can get an idea on that. Um but once I get that
sent out with a certified kind of um >> so so we we need to present to them at a public hearing. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think it's like I said I don't think it's very very large but and I have asked for like what did like sandwich do? what a tour do just to get an idea of what they're really looking
for. But it sounds like it's more of a congratulatory tour for the to for us to give to them of saying, you know, and it'll be very congratulatory that we actually got to this point and they're really happy that the towns are getting certified. So, I don't think it's going to be any negative in any way, shape, or form. I
think it's going to all be positive. Um um the uh I haven't got the certified articles, but we do need to put in the um the zoning amendments to the AG's office by I don't know December 16th or something, December 17th. Um I'm waiting for the certified articles from the town
clerk in order to finish that work up. Um the only change was as we all know was to the removal of the seasonality on the boats. I think I think the crowd that was there that night was was very supportive of of boats and boat changes. And I
think that's part of the reason why why that changed because I know that we were all concerned that we'd put all this in and we wouldn't get it passed because people would be concerned about it and that's why the seasonality clause went in. But that crew at the meeting there were more than happy to to to take that
out. So I think that the people spoke. >> Yep. Madam Chair, can I ask a quick question about the timing? >> Yes, you may. >> You mentioned you mentioned the AG. So, can you just remind us one more time? And I'm sorry I asked this before special town meeting, but I cannot remember. >> When when can somebody go and file for a
special permit so they can park their boat on their special lot that they can't park their boat behind or next to? >> I didn't say that in really good English, but you know what I'm trying to say. Get out of storage. Yeah, >> they can do it now at their own risk, >> right? and they can't implement it until
they can't actually use the special permit until um it's approved by the AG's office and it's been properly posted by the town clerk. >> So that feels like February or March. >> It's it's 90 day. No, it's longer. It's going to be that. It's 30 days for us to submit it and then 90 days for the AG to
review it. Maybe close to the 90 days. So it's 120 days out from town meeting. >> So April. >> Yeah, it's going to be a while. But >> but okay. But all I'm saying is like if people feel they want to make the risk and they're willing to go and get the special permit and they're willing to put their money down for a special
permit and have it in their back pocket so that come April 1st >> they can they can park their boat there they they certainly could do that. >> So okay right so practically legally I'll say it for those people on those particular lots >> they won't be able to legally put their
boat park their boat in front of their house on a trailer until April. Yes, it needs to be fully approved by the AG's office, >> which mean and so not even April because then you have to have an actual hearing at the zoning board and then that has the 20-day >> No, no. What I'm saying is you could do that during the winter now in preparation for that, but it's not
you're not going to you're not going to have it probably will condition upon approval of the >> Oh, sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, you can apply to the ZBA today. Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> At your own at your own risk. >> No, no, I understand. Okay. I'm sorry about that. >> I didn't mean to confuse anybody that actually knew what was going on. I just
>> couldn't remember. Thank you, Madam Chair. Yep. >> Uh Kathy, uh any update on the MADK's utilization committee? >> Yes, the next meeting is on um December 11th, next Thursday. um and BSE group
the at the last meeting the MUK had kind of given them some direction on kind of the three bubble diagrams that they were interested in um really kind of being heavy on the sports complex um and different ways of locations along
with housing and some different varying degrees. Um they're going to have some conceptual design concepts for the for the muck to look at on Thursday. Um and then um their monthly meeting in in um
January is I think it's on the 8th. That's when they'll finalize that because they're going to go be giving a presentation to the select board. We're hoping I want to say February 3rd. Okay. Thank you. Uh we have meeting minutes to accept. Uh may I have a motion to accept
the meeting minutes of November 17th? Our our attendance at the special town meeting. All in favor? >> I >> Any committee updates? >> Do >> good. Yeah. >> Well, shouldn't that be the the most
relevant of freshest update >> from CBC? We just met with finance committee and they in you know in theory we have to sit now December 16th with the select board but uh the finance committee thought we had done a great job this year with it CBC and all that
and they said thank you and move on. So we are moving on to select board on December 16th. >> Okay. >> Madam chair. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Peter anything? No >> my bad. I didn't know you were going in order. Sorry. um design review committee. We reviewed a possible Taco Bell out there on station A at the
corner of old townhouse and station a >> the gas station. >> The gas station and the physical therapy office. >> Oh, that building. >> So, both lots combined. >> Would it be KFC and Taco Bell? >> It would not actually be KFC. >> These are important questions.
>> Put a line through the KFC and just circle Taco Bell. Oh, it it um >> that's good. >> We had some concerns or comments about the design of the building, which is their typical boxy western looking Taco Bell.
>> Who's doing a traffic study? It would be my first question. >> I think it was done previously for the >> HP did the traffic study and it and determined that uh >> it's not going to have any significant impact and the existing infrastructure. >> I'd say something, but I don't want to say it on microphone. Yeah,
>> I think when it gets to site plan review, my comment's going to be you need to get a peer review of that because we all know >> how bad Station Avenue is and you know how busy a Taco Bell could possibly be at varying times. They don't do breakfast, >> especially there.
>> Yeah, they don't do breakfast, so they wouldn't, you know, be having like early morning, but they do do deliveries in a WB64 tractor trailer truck, right? >> Which is ginormous. >> Yes. >> Um, so there's obviously traffic concerns. They need a special permit and I think they might need a variance with
regard to the location of the drive-thru u with regard to the proximity to residential uh property similar to um the >> JMart >> situation, >> you know. Um so so they got a lot a ways to go. They did send some modified
elevations that I'm working with um >> Sarah Porter. I sent them to Sarah. Um your examples that you sent very much appreciated. Uh, I think I actually if you change the materials kind of preferred the one on the second page. So, I'm going to talk to um Sarah a
little bit about that. Sarah Porter is the architect on our on our design review committee. So, she has always has some good insights. Um, >> I have a question for Peter. Peter, is that the the old gas station that was closed across the street from the >> No, it's a Senco that was on the corner.
Tomoko was on the corner where the car the car lot is. >> So, they're going to combine that the next lot >> right next to kind of Wendy's. >> Right. Right. Same same owner, same >> developers. >> Okay. >> We're gonna combine it. >> Yeah, it'll be interesting. >> More mess for station. >> The build the building's at I can send
the site pan. It's site plan. It's at an odd angle, too. You It's not, you know, it doesn't it's not >> it's not parallel with station A nor townhouse. It's kind of on an angle. It's kind of >> but it was the way that they chose because of the parking and the drive-thru lane and the delivery lane.
It's it's um I wasn't part of the previous plan that was approved there for a Starbucks, but it was that was a a building that would probably have been um they had more people, but this Taco Bell has to has their standard has a a really typical design that they can um
sort of adjust to wherever they are in work, you know, designing a building. But this one was still very clunky. It had murals, the the typical murals on the side. It was >> their design was um they called it Cape Cod gray, but it was brown. Sarah said
it was kind of it was it wasn't it wasn't Cape Cod the typical Cape Cod gray. Um black asphalt sort of over it was >> ugly. >> I get they they need they need what they need, but maybe they have some flexibility too. >> I think we can make it better.
>> Yeah. >> Here we go. I don't know if it will make us all jump with joy, but we can definitely make it better. >> Is anything going next door? >> Is there any word what's going on in the old liquor store, Martin's Liquor, which is supposed to be a sandwich shop or something? >> I heard that was supposed to be He spent
a lot of money making that into a deli. >> Just repaved the whole property. You don't spend You don't spend 20 grand on repaving unless you're planning on doing something with it. >> Yeah, he's been working on it for like a salume area like this really upscale Italian. >> Yeah, I thought it was too. I >> welcome it. Me too.
>> Nothing though. >> I'll ask Mark. He always seems to know everything about everything. >> Yeah. Okay, >> Madam Chair. Uh hello. Um the rack does not meet until Monday. Unfortunately, it'll be my last Rack meeting, but very
excited for Ken. Um I am um clearly though uh some very I don't know shocking news about the worker for Ravoli who died in a trench >> and the two people that were injured. Um, I've now just been informed in the
last few days that there is some a pending legal dispute between the town of Yarmouth and Ravoli that is parallel and has nothing to do with >> this particular issue which I'm sure will go on for quite a long time. Um,
but this actually has to do with some legitim, you know, some not legitimate, I'll say this different way. It has to do with some contractual disputes >> between the town and Ravoli and um they're not pretty.
Um there's some very clearly uh staked out positions on either side about who did something wrong or who has failed to do something. >> Is it out of scope problems? >> It's all the things that you can imagine. Um and it's ugly. Um and now of course it's now got a backdrop
>> Yeah. terrible tragedy just to sprinkle on top of it. >> Um, and you know, unfortunately, as people have been asking me, and I'm sure ask many of you, >> um, >> there are some things that the town of Yarmouth can't do anything about. And
one of them has to do with the way the state contracts are awarded. >> And state contracts have to be awarded to the lowest bidder in the town of Yarmouth. And the rack, which and the select board, which ultimately executes all these contracts, and Mr. written hour don't have any leeway
when it comes to these things. So I think it's important for folks to remember that that nobody uh anybody that just Googled Ravoli while they were in the process much like you would Google any contractor if you were involved in a committee of people who were looking at a bunch of different
contractors um those things would have popped up from previous years and previous you know places around the state of Massachusetts. But again, just a quick reminder, there are rules in place and that includes with school building projects, by the way, and also I'm assuming libraries um that
unfortunately the town has to do the best it can with the hand that it's dealt. But it will be interesting to see and I I assume there'll be some future conversation at rack meetings, but also at the select board, whether it's an executive session or not, that we should all be aware of. >> So,
>> okay. >> Can I ask a general question? Has OSHA done their report yet on what occurred and have they as a result is still working >> despite the accident? >> They I think well they were definitely halted. >> Yeah, they were halted last. >> I believe they've been able they've been
able to resume. >> I can answer that. They they did halt on them. Um but they have picked back up again this week. >> But to answer Tom's question, OSHA has OSHA has month they have a long window. >> They do. But have they even started? My
my understanding is they're involved, but in terms of when that report will come and what it will say, it will take a long time. I would guess >> I am sure they have months months to work to deal. I mean, >> right. Well, I just mean that Ken will certainly I think the rack will hear
about it and select board will hear about it and hopefully we'll be able to inform each other about >> typically in a situation like this is that once OSHA's involved they actually now probably have forced the hand of Ravoli to put a safety officer on the job site to oversee future work. Um,
>> which is net net not net not net not net not net not net not net not net not net not net not net a good thing >> right ex net not net a good thing you know a terrible tragedy but um all I do know is I see trucks up and down southshore drive again working so that you know that piece I do see >> okay >> that area between in front of the
skipper that's closed indefinitely though now I don't know if that's because of what that area right now in front >> is closed there >> that is totally closed you have to go around the detour behind because they have to do an entire examination. >> They have until they finish their their
their due diligence. That site will be closed. >> That's right. Yeah. And I'm sure that's why it is closed, Tom. >> Yeah. >> Is because of OSHA's due diligence or some some safety inspectors. You know, I know state's involved, the feds are involved. I'm sure the town's involved.
So, >> um but that area, that stretch in front of the skipper is you can't get through there. So, >> it's just going to it's probably going to be held up >> till summer at least. >> Wow. >> I hope not. >> It could be.
>> Thank you, Madam Chair. >> Thank you. >> Any uh miss committee? >> No, they have. >> Tom, anything on a committee yet? >> You will be. >> They will be >> and they're excited to have it. >> The library committee used to have >> to get to um the appointment. I haven't
made that formal request to them yet, but I will do that. Oh, on our assignments. >> Yes, >> VINCOM knew it tonight. So, >> knows everything. Yeah. >> Well, that's because Richard Simon and I >> had a conversation and I mentioned that
Tom is later the next cycle. >> You wanted to make sure you're staying through Yeah. >> told I I told him that tonight. I I'd stay through this cycle. >> Yep. and get the kickoff and just so for a little while in general I'll go to both meetings and then I'll pass the baton.
>> Yeah. >> Um okay. Uh Kathy, correspondents or staff updates? >> Hang on, I got something. Um, I did receive today the VCOD site
plan review application for 645 Route 28, which is that it's that old >> Chinese food restaurant kind of >> China. >> Tasty buffet. >> The other end of >> the China No in between >> China in China.
>> Across from the Compass Lounge, right? >> No, >> no, it's across from the Apple Lane. >> We're talking next to Sons of Aaron over there. Captain Packers. >> That old green restaurant that's been vacant for decades. >> Yeah, it's been vacant since I've been here.
>> What is that going to become? >> It's going to become uh mixed use. It's going to have 11 11 housing units in it with two thousand square foot commercial spaces on the >> walk right to the park. >> And walk right to the park. >> Nice location. >> And I believe that the affordable housing trust gave some money for that.
And through that discussion, they were required to provide two affordable housing units from occlusionary. But I think they because they gave them some money that I think there's going to be four >> out of the 11. >> Out of the 11. >> So >> it's all rental. No ownership.
>> All rental. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um and then just uh I had mentioned in the email that I sent for the conservation commission agenda that we are going to be seeing a modification to the definitive subdivision for 63 Thatcher shore. Uh when they ultimately
installed the roadway, they didn't install the swailes on the side. Uh and based on the conditions and looking out there, it didn't look like they really needed it. The swailes would actually have been concentrating the storm water runoff um when and it wasn't necessary. But they are going to the concom I believe tomorrow night in order to get
approval for that change. So there they had a um they did a request for determination of applicability and then that's going to be something I believe our January um 7th meeting. Uh that will be a public hearing that this you may get a lot of people from that
neighborhood coming. Um but I think that that has settled down a little bit but um and then also we're working to final the finalize the edits on the hazard mitigation plan. Thank you to everyone who provided comments. Um I sent those off to Martha Heer at the commission and we're meeting tomorrow to kind of go
through them and make edits and then we're going to go out for um public comment. Uh and then we also have a public meeting and then we're going to be um on that select board meeting on February 4th as well. We have until May 2nd to finalize it with the grant.
>> Okay. uh upcoming meetings uh December 17th maybe. Kath maybe >> the only thing is is I I think we're okay. I did get an ANR plan that somebody submitted. Um that would have been an issue but they can do it through
an 81X. They don't need to come to us. They don't need to uh if you do a perimeter plan, if you're just joining two pieces of property that you own, it's called a perimeter plan. You don't have to do come to us through an ANR. You can go directly to the Barnstable Registry of Deeds through an 81X record it.
>> Let us know the um recording. It ends up coming going to the assessors. Uh and then Mark, they wanted to extend their deck, but Mark's like, I'm not doing that until you've combined your lots. So, I don't think we need to do the ANR um for that. So, I don't think we don't have anything for the December 17th meeting. I am going to be out of out of
the office that day. Um and I don't want to I probably could get back, but I don't want to rush to have to get back. I don't >> When will we meet? After the 17th. Uh, January 7th. >> Seventh. >> January 7th. >> That will be the public hearing on that subdivision modification. >> Take your time getting back, Kath. We're
all set. >> Yeah. Oh, oh, darn. >> Thanks, Kath. >> If my vote counts, >> Madam Chair, may I ask a quick question? >> Is there has there been any movement on the CEDC that you know of?
>> Ye. Yes, I did. Um, I think in January there's going to be some movement on that. I think me Megan's on vacation this week. >> Well, it's just unclear as to who is actually on it besides me. >> I think you and Peter Maul pass. >> Okay. But I mean at some I don't know what the minimum requirements are to
have a to have a board. >> Yeah. You would. >> So I mean it may take some time form. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Kathy, any update on Great Island? >> No. and our and the new mobile app and the new mobile website.
>> I don't know. >> Okay. Well, I mean I I try to wait every couple months. I don't I don't ask. >> I I probably do know, but I don't. >> Town of Yarmouth. There are some towns on the Cape that have an app >> and there are some towns on the Cape that have a website that is mobile optimized. And unfortunately, we have neither.
>> Okay. Not not a judgment, just a fact. >> May I have a motion to adjurnn? >> You may moved. Second.