Hope the restaurant's flexible. I'm I'm leaving at 8. How's that? Good evening uh and welcome to the morning in progress. Good evening and welcome to the May 7th, 2025 Yarmouth
Planning Board meeting. I am Joanne Crowley, the chair. The public is always welcome to attend. We thank you for coming tonight in person or via alternate public access provided on the town of Yarmouth website. Our meetings are generally held on the first and
third Wednesdays of the month. Uh but additional meetings are added as necessary. Um I will begin by taking roll call. Susan Brida here. Dearra Gaquin here. Will Rubenstein here. Jim Sabin present. Peter Slovak here. Ken
Smith here. Joanne Crowley present. Seeing that we have a quorum present, I will now call the meeting to order. And I would ask that you join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the
republic for it stands, one nation, indivisible, liberty and justice for all. First item on our agenda this evening are uh the our consideration for zoning
amendments that we would like to present perhaps uh at the fall special town meeting. Uh these zoning amendments uh are retail sales of commercial fish, shellfish in residential zoning
districts, on-site boat storage and residential zoning districts and accessory dwelling units um to modify the accessory apartment bylaw to match the state regulations. I'd like to begin by reviewing um zoning
amendment requests for those of you who may not know how this process works. Um I I would I am very pleased to see so many here. So many people interested in probably a couple of these amendments. Um, one is already the accessory
dwelling units amendment has gone through the torture of uh uh many public meetings and then it was overridden by state law and we now have to come back and rewrite our accessory dwelling unit
uh by law to conform with state law. But the other two items on our agenda this evening obviously have generated some public interest and we're happy to engage with the public with you in terms of moving forward um to make this uh
these changes to the bylaw that satisfy everyone's needs. Zoning amendment requests often come from the public for consideration by the planning board. Uh this evening I'm going to begin with an overview of what the zoning amendment process is.
um so that you'll understand how we get from here tonight to special town meeting which will probably be in November. Uh and then after that um when in in fact uh the state approves our
amendments we can actually uh enact them and we can move forward with them. Uh and then in addition I'll review the format for this evening's meeting. So what is the planning board's role in the process for adopting and amending
zoning? What you know what do we do? Massachusetts general laws chapter 48 is the statute that prescribes procedures as to how we act, how we amend, how we adopt, how we administer, and how we enforce. A zoning bylaw regulates the
use pattern and appearance of development through zoning districts. We have commercial districts and residential districts through dimensional requirements, we call them setbacks, etc. Use requirements, which is primarily why we're here this
evening, and other regulations. This evening, we are beginning the process of developing three amendments to our current bylaw that result in changes to our use and dimensional requirements and other provisions, especially related, as I mentioned before, to the accessory
dwelling units. Let me review the overview for the process of of of creating and developing zoning amendments as put forth by the planning of the board to be voted on at town meeting. Again, between here and
November, I presume is when our special town meeting. This lays out the road map that we must follow between now and then. Number one, identify and present an issue within the zoning bylaw. This can come from multiple sources. It comes
from us. It comes from you. It comes from business owners. It comes from other residents. Um the planning board then reviews and develops draft revisions to address the issue that's been presented to us for discussion at
multiple public meetings. All of our meetings are public and these amendments will be discussed over time extensively between now and and our special town meeting. Once the planning board is satisfied um and town council has
reviewed the proposed amendment, we hold a mandatory public hearing. After the public hearing and deliberations uh on the comments we receive during the public hearing, we we um either recommend or do not recommend uh the
particular article with or without modifications. After the public hearing, uh the planning board then presents the amendment to the select board for their review and comment. Um and the select
board then votes to recommend or not recommend the modification or the article. The amendment is included in the article for town meeting warrant to be voted on by registered voters. If the article passes, the changes are submitted to the
attorney's attorney general's office within 30 days of town meeting. Uh they then must review it and get back to us within 90 days to say yes, we accept it or no, we don't. Amendments are typically valid on the day of town
meeting unless they are not approved by the AG's office. It should be noted that the planning board does not have the authority to give relief for issues requiring a zoning amendment which must be approved through town meeting
only. The format for this evening's meeting each zoning amendment will be handled individually. We'll start with the staff overview which will be provided by our town planner Kathy Williams. We will request any proponents for the
particular item to come to the microphone, identify themselves and explain what they would like to be able to do. Please refrain from any lengthy explanations or grievances and concentrate on what you would like to be
able to do or accomplish to help us move this particular item forward. This will help the board identify what we might need to change within the zoning bylaw and get us started on drafting amendments. The planning board members
will then offer their comments and questions and then we'll have an opportunity for follow-up from comments from you. Please note that these are initial discussions and further discussions and drafts will be developed over the summer in preparation for the
fall special town meeting typically held at the end of October or early November. So let us begin with the first zoning amendment that's on the on the agenda this evening. Retail sales of commercial fish shellfish in residential zoning
districts. Kathy, I'd like you to run through um an overview for us on this and then I I will ask any proponents uh to uh identify themselves and uh would ask you to come uh to the table and speak to us. Thank you Kathy. Thank you.
Good evening everybody. Thank you for coming. Um typically what I do is uh on these typ issues is I write a little memo to the board just kind of giving a little summary and a little background so they get a better understanding of what the issues are. So, I think it's come to the town's attentions that lobsters were being sold commercially uh
licensed fishermen on a residential property um when inquirers were made to the town about some signs that were located around town. Um these types of off- premises signs for commercial uses are not something that's allowed for any business uh uh in our zoning bylaw. And when we did additional uh research and
confirmation with town council, it turns out that the building commissioner determined that this is not is an unlawful use because it was never allowed in the zoning bylaw all through the years that we've had a zoning bylaw to have this type of use in a residential neighborhood. Uh this determination was upheld by the zoning board of appeals and they have a
decision that's been attached to your um information there. and a variance request for a B4 forestry, fishing, and hunting um to allow for retail sales was also denied um as it didn't meet the variance criteria. So hopefully tonight we'll get some further insights and
information from you guys um that helps the planning board consider potential zoning amendments. Some of the things that the board might want to consider is maybe some special provisions because we are asking for commercial use in a residential zoning district. So maybe we want to limit it to people who are commercially licensed fishermen with a
commercially retail license. um maybe they can only sell their catch so it doesn't turn into some type of wholesaling in a big operation in a residential zoning district. We may want to have some limitations on the type of signage and when it get can go out and that type of thing to let people know that they're open for business but not
to be something that's invasive into the residential neighborhood. And typically because of this type of use, we might require a special permit. So you go to the zoning board of appeals, you'd explain what it is. Your but your neighbors would be notified. They could come and say, "Well, I have a little concerns about this." You can say, "Well, I can mitigate it this way." And
hopefully you get a special permit which may have some conditions on it. Some conditions may include like maybe some specific hours of operation that might be tailored specifically to to your particular use. Um so that is my understanding of the situation. Um and hopefully we'll get some more uh
understanding from you this evening. Thank you Kathy. Uh so I'd like to ask anyone in the audience who is a proponent of this to come forward and identify themselves. Good evening. Thank you. Uh my name is Jonathan Paloney. I am an attorney with
Sen Associates in Brewster and I am not appearing here on behalf of my mic. Is it on? Could you just repeat your name again? Sure. My name is Jonathan Paloney and I'm an attorney with Sen Associates. I'm here um on behalf of John Tally
uh who is the lobsterman who's been the subject of the zoning enforcement. Um just one quick point just of clarification. Um there have been two hearings in the zoning enforcement. I'm not going to dwell on that, but I just
wanted to clarify that there was never a determination about the grandfathering status. That was the hope that we were going to bring to the second hearing which was there was never a discussion about that. It was dismissed for other reasons. So I just wanted to to point
that out. Um to answer your question, Madam Chairman, um what Mr. Tully would like to do and I believe he will come and speak also. Um but he obviously wants to be able to continue his commercial retail of lobsters at his home. It's been his home business for a
very long time, over 50 years. and uh he would like to continue to be able to do that. Um I think that it's encouraging some of the language that has been pointed out um in the staff report. Um I think some of a lot of that makes sense and I think that's the direction that we
would like to see things go in as you consider this further. Um a couple of ideas um I can throw out there. One idea, and John may speak about this more, is uh to simply explicitly provide for grandfathering of
this specific use that predates 1982. Um there was a lot of materials that we were able to pull together in preparing for the second hearing in front of the ZBA. Um, in the conversations that I had with the building commissioner at that time, um,
when you go through the zoning bylaws going all the way back to the beginning of zoning in Yarmouth, um, there are there is this express provision for the handling of fish in the residential district specifically that also allowed
for the sale of those fish in the residential district. And that was where we started to take this argument around this being a grandfathered use, a protected use. Uh that really goes back to beginnings of zoning in in Yarmouth.
Um, so I think that that would be one way that you could address it is by just recognizing that there is this long history of lobstering and fishing in Yarmouth that that has a precedent and it would also serve to mitigate against
some of the concerns that the staff has raised around, you know, really opening this up. If you are making it so that someone has to show that they've been doing this before 1982, then you're really limiting, I think pretty significantly, the number
of people who are going to be able to meet that criteria. So that would obviously satisfy us. That is the goal that we're looking for. We meet that criteria and I think there's evidence to support that in how the zoning bylaws developed. the the critical date in 1982
being the date when the zoning bylaw changed and the provision for the handling of fish in the residential district was removed and the reorganized the zoning bylaw at that time um to to create these other categories.
So it was moved out of and I they may have just eliminated uh the retail use at that time but there were a couple of changes that happened then 1982 was kind of a significant time. Alternatively uh commercial uses are presently recognized in the residential district.
Um, as you know, the B4 category uh for fishing, forestry, and hunting um falls in the agricultural use category, and that is a use that is allowed in every district except I think for the B3 district. And
so this doesn't apply to the fishing, forestry or hunting um classification, but the other two agricultural classifications uh raising uh produce and raising livestock both come with a footnote 7
attached and footnote 7 allows for retail sale with you when you get a special permit. So it is possible to do commercial retail in a residential district on a special permit for certain uses. That is that is something
that you know it might you could go that route and kind of just add footnote 7 to the fishing use. Um I don't know if that raises kind of more of a question about whether you have to be fishing from your property in order to be able to take
advantage of footnote 7. Um, but there's some connection there. Um, and it does also relate to the special special permit provisions that the staff was talking about. Um, you could also create a new footnote that
uh builds in a specific provision for retail sales for fishing in the residential district. And that could be an opportunity to bring in these other concerns around limiting it to personal catch that you're then selling. Um, and if you wanted to address sign
regulations through that, that might be possible. Um, I think one of the questions that you might want to address is around, you know, specifying certain things in the zoning bylaw or just leaving this as a
broad category for the zoning board to address. So, there are certain conditions that you could build into the zoning bylaw that if somebody met them, then they would have kind of a byright ability to do that. And alternatively, if it just was left to you got to get a
special permit, then you can do this. You're creating the opportunity for that to happen, but you're giving it to the ZBA to make a determination around that. So, those are kind of two paths that I can see happening. um myself and my client I think would be
more in favor of a direct approach which I think the grand f having that explicit protected use designation would would just really clearly make that so that there wasn't a need for any further review. Um, my one final point would be
that you could eliminate the footnote 7 and create a whole new category for retail sales of agricultural products and include fishing in that. And this would be, you know, the the farmers market was added in as a
H3A underneath kind of food stores as a special category. you could come up with an H3B for agricultural retail as a specific category that would be broadly applicable throughout all the zoning districts except for the B3 district.
And um you could you know define things particularly within that category. Um so I think those are the kind of the ideas that I have about how we might approach this problem. Um, one question that I had which you may have already
answered was um, there doesn't seem to be any immediate relief for this season and that that is also a concern that I'm trying to work through through an alternative uh, track. But I also was wanting to open that up to you if you
had any thoughts about how John may approach this season which is coming up next month and will run for a couple of months after that. I I don't think even if you know with the special town meeting that he's still going to lose the season this year. So I don't
know if there is any way for you to recommend anything about the enforcement action that's happened, but that's obviously something that we're concerned about as well. Um, this is his livelihood. So, thank you. Thank you very much.
John Tally, 23 Boulevard, West. This all about me, obviously. Welcome. So, so this is what the the point is. The handling of fish and the sale in a residential area started in 1947 because I went all the way back to the very
first town meeting and when it switched over was in 1982. Well, my grandfather who lives over you, everyone must know where the passhole is in Yamaport sold lobsters from there from 1930 to 1972. Not just
lobsters, it was fish and scolops. He had a sign out on historical um uh the old King's Highway right at the corner of Center Street when they spelled it the right way. C E N T I E instead of C E N T E R. And he had a
sign out there that said Native Lis. So he did that from that time to that time. Then my father when he was a kid, he he grew up there also until he was like in his late 20s when he married my mother. But he also sold from that same premises
sold seaworms, clams, stripe bass, lobsters, etc. So then when he married my mother, moved over to over to um West Yamoth in 1957. My father sold them from 1957
until until when he passed away basically. And so and I've lived there my whole life. So I've lived there from 1959 to to today. And I've sold lobsters. I'll tell you right now, and I'm not going to lie to you, I've sold millions of pounds of fish from my home.
And lobsters, crabs, scolops, every conchk. And I don't sell to people like on the Cape. Most of the places I sell to come from off the Cape. They're they're from Canada. A lot of Chinese from New York,
uh, uh, Maine. And so they come and pick those the product up at my house. And I've been doing that ever since. I was 16. That's when I had my first license. I had my first fishing license when I was 16. And I had a scolop
license. So I went fishing and scoloping. I sold fish to to my to to you know my teachers and stuff in school and scolops and blah blah blah. And I had a lobster license for a student lobster license that I sold the lobsters also. And so I've been selling all that stuff since then. No one seems to
complain because I've sold to building inspectors. Forvis White told me that John, you cannot you cannot have a sign there, but you can sell the sell the fish because your grandfathered into it. So if no one said anything for
50 years, that's just me, 50 years, and no one said anything about my father, my grandfather, except for one person. And the one person, you probably don't know who it is, but the but the building the building uh commissioner told me it was
a female Yamoth cop. They complained about my sign up on up on Route 28. Had nothing didn't complain about me selling the lobster. It was a sign. This is how this all started from that sign being out there. So, but I have s had signs on south of Yav, which is a road right next
to my house and and a sign in front of my house. So basically, I've been doing this all this time. No one I've sold to cops. I sell to everyone. I've sold to everyone, you know? I mean, that's why you have so many pe so many people supporting me. I mean, they're supporting me all over the all over the
country. You can't believe it. I've had I've had people call me from almost every state in the union saying they're supporting me. So, you know, I feel like my cause is there, but it's like now from what I can see, am I not going to be able to sell the lobsters from my house this year because I have to wait
all the way to, you know, to the fall or of course I could sell them up on the main street, but that's not my I've always sold them from the house and that's what I want to continue to do. I've always done it. I mean, and that's what grandfathering is all about. And the thing is, if you say it it it it has
to be before 1982, you don't have to worry about anything because I'm the only person. There's no other lobster been left in Yamoth. Yamoth and you don't have to continue it to and say shellfishing because you can't sell shellfish. You
can't you you don't know this, but it's a state regulation. You cannot sell sell shell fishermanmen like if you caught uh well conchk is different but if you caught like clams and little necks and that type of stuff you you can't you can't sell them you can't sell them from your premises you have to sell them to
to a a retail or wholesale dealer. So basically there's so I'm the only I'm the only lobsterman left in town and we love you. So once I get done, guess what? The
history of lobstering is is kaput for the town of Yamoth, which is pretty sad, but that's what that's what the truth is. No person wants their kid to become a fisherman nowadays because overregulation. Everything's overregulated. Now, now,
now up until about three years ago, I had a sea bass license, a stripe bass license, a scup license. um a conchk license. I sold all those things because they they regulate you out of out of
making any money. So I'm 66 years old. So I'm a senior citizen and basically I just want to sell a few lobsters until I die and then you don't have to worry about anything ever again. It's kind of simple. I mean it's simple. It's like I
mean I don't know what else to say. I I'm grandfathered into it but they try to make it sound like I'm not. I mean come on. What that I'm I'm what the whole grandfathering clause is. It's that I am grandfathered. So, you know, sorry,
grandfather. No, my grandfather. He's been gone for a long time. But, you know, like I say, my grandfather and my father were turning over in their grave because they've been selling this. They sold the stuff their whole lives. That's what Yamis was all about back then. And this is what people don't know. When my father was a little
boy and um and my and his brother Walter and my grandfather was Walter Senior, when they went fishing, guess what? They rode. They hadn't invented the outboard motor to go. So they rode out stripe bass fishing, lobstering. So people
don't, you know, people don't realize that that's how it started out. So and and that law from 1947, they were still rowing at that time, rowing out to the traps. So it's like that's what that's what the grandfather and pot's all about. I mean it comes from way back then. But no one no one would believe
you if you say they wrote out to the to traps but they did. And so basically my lawyer said the other part for me and you know I hope you guys could consider changing the bylaw because all I think is all you have to do is make it simple. Anything anything before 1982 you're
golden. And then that's me and everyone else has either got to remember they've either died. retired or they are ill. Couple of livesmen are sick with cancer. They they sold their licenses. So the only one's only one left in town is me.
History books. Yep. Tally's history lesson. You know thank you for listening to me. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tally. Would anyone else like to speak? My name is Jerry Oconor. I live in
Yamothport. I love John's story. I love it. I grew up here in Yamoth. I love the Cape. This is the place I came home to when I punched out of the Marine Corps. I love this guy's story. And I just ask that the town can do the right thing. For the life of me, I don't know how it got to this. Um, they should never have
got to this, but please guys, do the right thing. Help John. Thank you. Tracy Bird from Yamothport, born and raised on in Yamothport. We're losing our generations of Cape Carters. We've Yamoth has lost
its sway, but we can still get it back. We need to stop supporting all our agriculture, our cranberry bogs, our fishermen, our lobstermen. We have to make Yamoth great again. It is time to stop this ridiculous. Let him do his
season and let's make Yamoth great again. We're all We're all leaving. We're all leaving. We're having families that aren't going to sticking around. We're all leaving. You got to help us out here. It's a eye opener for all of us. and a shame on us Yamoth people that let
this happens for so long. Let's make Yamoth great again. Thank you. Would anyone else uh like to speak? My name is Steve Ferguson. I uh I'm a neighbor of John's. I've lived in the neighborhood since 1962.
My folks bought seafood from Fred and bought it from John. Um it's a shame that it's got to this point and I reiterate all those other sayings. So give him a chance. Yes. Sally Johnson, West Jarmath, um
Middlework Road. I don't understand how one person made such chaos out of a simple situation. Natural chaos. Huge. He's doing nothing wrong.
He has been doing it for decades. You're taking a livelihood away from someone. His his means of living in this town. The other woman who spoke, we have lost our way. Mhm. It is insane that it has
gotten to this point. I don't get how one single person could make such chaos for a sign. It's a sandwich board sign. Big deal. Eliminate him. You know
what? There's ways to advertise and make it simple, but let him do what's right. It's his livelihood. It's not like he's going to be here for 150 years. He's a senior citizen. Give me about four more. I can do 20.
But it's simple. It's very, very simple. Yarmouth has become very chaotic. There's way more important issues to deal with. This is too simple to make it so ridiculous. Do the right thing.
certainly. Sorry, but if we're Is this whole this whole signing signage thing? It's only up there for like maybe a couple of hours if that. Some days he Some days he doesn't even have the sign out. Depends on his catch. It could be out for an
hour. Depends if he sells it all out. If we're looking at signage and businesses advertising, you better take a look all the way down 28. And you better take a look all the way down 68. I'd like Excuse me if I may. When someone's
speaking, I would like for them to have the opportunity to speak without interruption. Thank you. And you should take a look take a look down west all these major roads, West Jamoth Road. All these businesses are advertising and he's not advertising 24
hours a day, 7 days a week. And I do appreciate you all actually writing things down. And I appreciate you saying, you know, asking questions and hearing us and not kicking us out. And I appreciate the notes that
you've been taking. And I appreciate you saying, "God, I can't stand these people." I appreciate you not saying that on Mike. and that we do appreciate you all sitting here taking the time and actually listening. And John, your dad would be proud of you like the rest of
us are. We have some people who are on uh who are joining us remotely and I'd like is Ari Barill. Ari Barill, the first name. Uh good evening. Are you able to hear me? Yes. Okay. I have my my camera on,
but it's it's not showing. But in any event, um my name is Ari Baral. I'm an attorney with the Institute for Justice. We're a national nonprofit public interest law firm. We're one of the groups that has been in contact with John and we originally reached out uh to the zoning board of uh appeals before
his his hearing a few weeks ago. Um we work with local governments nationwide to amend their local zoning codes to make localities more receptive to homebased businesses and historic businesses like John's. We also sue local governments, but that's not why I'm here this afternoon. Um, but we view
this as an opportunity both uh for John and for the town to make their uh their laws and regulations more receptive to at home and homebased businesses. Um, these types of businesses aren't new or specific to Yarmmouth. Localities nationwide have homebased business codes
just like Yarmmouth does. Um, and the the right way to go about doing this is to identify whatever legitimate health and safety concerns exist and to regulate those things, those externalities appropriately. So, if you have concerns about parking or ingress and egress, you regulate that. If you
have concerns about signage, you can regulate that consistent with the First Amendment. Um, and you can, you know, if you have concerns about the types of things that are being sold, you can regulate that, as John talked about, consistent with state law, which imposes a ton of restrictions on the types of products that can be sold. But
categorical prohibitions on home sales or homebased businesses, which are totally unrelated to these concerns about health and safety, are irrational and unconstitutional. And so too are irrational distinctions like allowing a farmers market but not allowing lobster
sales for a couple of hours a day. So again, this is an opportunity for Yarmmouth to not just allow Jon to operate, but to make Yarmmouth a more pro business place to live. You've already heard a lot of testimony from folks who are concerned about the old ways um being regulated out of existence
and that Yarmouth is becoming a more and more difficult place to live and to thrive. And so I think of course John needs to be allowed to operate, but I think this is also an opportunity for the town to take a hard look at what it's been doing over the last few years and consider whether it's still working for the people of Yarmouth. and IG is
willing to work with you to do that. Thank you. Two other names, but I don't know who the two other names are. Oh, sorry. Joe Glenn is next. Joe Glenn. Hi, Madam Chair. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Joe, good evening. Um, my
question goes more to process in history. I've heard it said a number of times that it shouldn't have got this far and not just by the people who support John but members of the town administration. And they're right. It shouldn't have got this far. But the
problem is that the process is about people who are abusing their power, the power that's vested in the people of Yarmouth. Yarmouth town meeting is the oldest form of democracy in the world and it started right here and James Otis
when we talk about history and we talk about eliminating these things we're eliminating not only the history of Yarm we're eliminating the history of the country James Otis was the one who said taxation without representation is
tyranny and Thomas Jefferson used his comments about life liberty liberty and property. And that's what we're talking about here. Life, liberty, and property. And he used that and he put it in the Declaration of Independence. Sam Adams
said about James Oders who was from here who represented Cape Cod represented Yarmouth in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the Plymouth Bay Colony in the Massachusetts legislature and helped form the the Massachusetts Constitution
which was the the forebearer of the US Constitution. So this is more than just John Tally. John Tally is a friend of mine. John Tolly's father was a friend of mine and it it irks me to no end that
the history of this town and it's being used against them of all people. You guys know that I've run for a lot of things uh in this town and I hold two positions, elected positions now. And either John Tally, his father, or
both have signed my papers for every single one. And so it bothers me to no end. And you can probably hear it in my voice that they are the ones that are getting the use of the the government is
abusing them. And you have Madakis on your uh agenda tonight, which includes the Madakis Middle School in the Emmy Small. And I just want to say one thing. If you looked across the out the door to your right and the audience's
left to the John Simpkins school, John Simpkins was another legislator and w is in Congress and he's buried here. He died in Washington DC uh while in Congress, but he's buried right here in
Woodside in Yarm. Okay. The John Simpkin School in the Margarit. Small is named after Margarite E. Small. Well, guess where she taught? She taught at the John Simpkins School in 1935. She started. Well, if anybody in that room can raise
their hand if they had someone close to them that was born in 1930 and would have started school at the John Simpkins, raise your hand. And I bet you see John I can't see the audience now but I bet you see John Tully raise his
hand because John Tully's father was one of Margarite Smalls first students. He was six years old. She was a second grade teacher uh in 1936 and John Simpkins was our only
school. It went all the way up to 12th grade. So for 12 years he was in that small building with Margarit small. That's history and that's history that we're losing. So we might be thinking that we're just messing around with the
a business and I don't think that it's the planning board's uh problem. I don't think that you are responsible for it. I think that there are people who are getting paid that could have circumvented and solved this problem
before it became an issue. So, I thank you for your time and John, stick with them and you got everybody behind you. Thank you, Mr. Christopher Garren. Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank
you. Yes. Thanks so much. Yes. I uh am here to speak in support of Mr. Tali and his attorney's recommendations for the uh special election uh amendments, but specifically the town must permit him,
Mr. Tali, to sell his lobsters this summer season. This has become a public relations disaster uh that may affect Yarmouth's historic legacy as a Cape Cod fishing town. It's been in the Boston media. It's on social media. It's
national. It's going to affect tourism. Yarmouth is hurting. Mr. Tali is a businessman and if he loses income from uh the busy season, that'll hurt him. He may not be here, you know, next year to uh he'll be bankrupt supposedly,
but Yarmouth is businesses are hurting with the construction of the sewer and other issues. The businesses are hurting. They are relying on a strong summer season to survive. and the the tourists are going to turn off to
Yarmouth if he Mr. Tali is not allowed to uh sell his lobsters this summer. Um and I just would say thank you to the board here again. I think I appreciate
your attempts to um to amend uh the law, but specifically please work out something so he can sell uh his lobsters this summer. Uh thank you so much. More hands.
I I don't think we have anyone else on on uh remote. Anyone else from the Can I just say something? Yes, please. Mr. Tally. Small told me that my father was her favorite student. She picked him up every day and
brought him to school and brought him home over in Yavaport for John Simp. Very good. Madam chair Margaret E. Small also told me I was her favorite student. Uh seeing that there are no other uh public comments uh either
remotely or here uh in the room, uh I would like to um ask the board um to offer their uh questions. I I would like to make a suggestion, Kathy. Um I' the attorney I'm sorry I've forgotten your
name already. Jonathan. Jonathan. Um could you submit something in writing to us um with regard to those suggested uh note changes and uh uh other recommendations that you might suggest for the uh the wording you know where in
the zoning bylaw you think I mean as an attorney we we uh appreciate your expertise. Um and if you could help us along that would be that would be a helpful um uh that would be helpful to us. Um Kathy of course is our expert on
this and she probably has some ideas on where a starting point is. All of them were similar to yours. I was thinking more footnotes but um they certainly had a lot of ideas and I appreciate you bringing them to us. Very helpful. I won't interrupt too much. Uh so I' I'd like to start with uh Mr. Sabin. Do you
have any comments or questions? Our vice chair. Uh yes, Madam Chair. I don't know how I pulled the the short straw, but I'll go first. Um, first full disclosure, I've known Johnny Tally since we were about two years old. Well, he he was two and I was probably four.
Um, grew up with him, played sports with him. Um, I had lobsters from his parents. Um, and probably from Johnny, too. I don't know. He never gave me any freebies, but um, but anyway, just full disclosure, I've known John virtually my
entire life. Um, and I empathize with the the situation that he's put in. I think that this board, I hope to the public, has seen that we're willing to cooperate and work uh with John to find some solutions to this so that we can uh allow him to continue the things that he
wants to do. Um, want people to understand there is a process that we're going through. This is like the step one. I know you all have had other meetings with other boards, but that's irrelevant to us. Our job right now is to try to find a solution and to work
through it. And there's a process that will we'll go through. It's been a long one. Not not interrupt me. Don't interrupt me. I didn't interrupt you. I I'd again I would like to remind everyone that when someone is speaking,
I would ask for your respect to let them complete. If you have further comments that you would like to make, I'm more than glad to engage, but please let Mr. Sabin continue with his remarks. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Um, I think some of the suggestions that that have been
brought forward are certainly workable. I and I hope that John will um work with the board to to you know, some of these suggestions of limiting commercial fishing licenses and commercial retail. You know, those types of suggestions can only sell what they catch, that type of stuff. Uh I would appreciate John some
uh working back and forth with us so that we can uh ultimately you know the whole thing that we're going to go through right now we ends with a vote at town meeting. Yep. So all of these people may be in support of you but there are 20,000 people in this town. We
don't know what the rest of them think. So we want to make sure that what we do is going to be acceptable to the majority of people at town meeting and that it's a workable solution for not only you but for the rest of the community. Um, and and I I think that that some of these suggestions are worth looking at. I've never heard the issue
with regard to grandfathering. I'd be interested in hearing from town council about that as to how we could I guess the the process that typically happens is there is a request, a determination is made by the building commissioner, you have the right to appeal that decision to the to the zoning board of appeals. The zoning board of appeals
upheld that decision. So unless you're asking for different relief or seeking something different, that's kind of that ship has sailed unfortunately. Right. No, no, I don't I don't mean it that way. I mean with regard I think the suggestion I heard was to make the it 1982 date. I don't
know if that's something that we can legally do or not. So that's would be something I ask from guidance on. Yes. Yes, I see what you're saying. Um you know, some of the suggestions were greatly appreciated. Our job now is to look at those and see if they're workable and and and find a way to to get through this. But but um the um the
other thing I want to say is this is only the beginning come to town meeting in the end and please continue to uh participate in our town government because it's you know we all grew up here. Well, not all grew up here but we all live here with you know so we're all trying to work together. So uh I hope we
can get that done. That's all. Madam Chair, thank you. Thank you Mr. S. Dera anything. I have no additional comic dear at the moment. You're no additional comments at the moment. Uh Susan, I think Miss Brida. Okay. I I
don't know, John, but thank you for being here. Um I'll be quick because I have to leave it. I've been pressed into doing emergency teaching service tonight. So, I have to leave at 6:30. A couple of clarifications. Is it Is it my understanding you need a separate lobster license from other licenses? Is
that what you said? Well, I have three lobster licenses. One to go lobstering. Can't hear you at home if you're not talking into a microphone. Maybe he could come up from the table. Not in the staff. Hello. Okay. So, the first one is my lobster license, which lets me go
lobster. I can sell to retail wholesale dealers or whatever. Then the second one is my retail boat license that allows me to sell to restaurants, anyone I want in the whole world. Okay. And then my third one is the retail truck which is which from a truck I can sell to anyone I want
also. And that's that those are the three that that's what the three licenses are. So that's the licenses that I have and I don't need to have a license from the town because I'm already have okay the license the uh building commissioner told me I don't need need any other. So if if if
something happened, you could not sell from your home, would you have alternative places to sell like from the warf that you land at or other peers or something? Are you totally out of business at that point? I could I could sell them from any commercial property in in Yamoth. Okay. But I'm selling them
from my house. I have that's a lot. I just didn't want I wanted to make sure that if Crackatoa happened and for some reason you could not sell from your house maybe this summer that you were not totally out of business that that you had an alternative site. Okay. Yeah. I have to find the place. I mean cuz I'm
going to basically want to be selling these things in three weeks here. So, you know, okay, I haven't looked out to too many to any people because I didn't know what was going to happen. Okay. And then one final question. I was told that the reason that shellfish and shrimp and
clams are treated differently is because they go bad faster and there's a longer like so sort of shelf life with lobsters. So there's not this is this is why this is why the state lets the lobster been sold because it's not something that's it's not a processed
fish a fish fillet. Okay. And and clams, oysters, and that type of stuff is regulated by you don't even want to know the laws on that. They're really strict. They have to be on ice and the whole nine yards. So lobsters is because you're selling them alive and I see I can't sell lobster meat like I can't
sell any pieces of lob you know like kas or tails or whatever. I have to sell you know I have to sell them alive. Okay. Um that was I had one other question. Um oh on the on the suggestions that your your lawyer made do you have a
preference? Um I do you have a preference in terms of the suggestions? I think grandfathering I think your lawyer mentioned several times that that would be your preference. Yeah, that's the preference. Grandfathered I mean okay you know my grandfather my father me and then no one else because I don't
have any children. I would if I did like I said I wouldn't let him be a fisherman. I'll tell you that. And my mother said you should have never let Fred you should have never let John be a fisherman. Now I believe him. Okay that's all I have. M madam chairman. Mr. Rubenstein. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Um, first I want to say thanks to everybody coming out tonight and certainly in compared to the last time there was a conversation in a public forum about this subject, I'm just quite pleased that we're able to have a reasonable conversation such as we're allowed to given the way these kinds of
meetings are run. So, I just wanted to start there because I watched the video of that for of that previous meeting and it it didn't go that well. Um, and it wasn't even about what side I was on. It just it just was
um it was it was bizarre quite frankly. And so I just wanted to start there that it is possible in the year 2025 for people who don't necessarily agree or people who are in the process of getting more informed. As you may know, our zoning bylaw is large. And um
despite the fact that we do this part-time job uh twice a month, we don't have the entire zoning code memorized. and even some fine attorneys don't either. Um, so the ability to talk about pieces of our zoning bylaws at specific times is important because it educates
us. That doesn't mean we're dummies, but it also means we're also citizens just like you and we can't be expected to know everything all the time. So, having said that, this has been quite an education for me personally. And at the same time, I'm a little frustrated because as much as I support you both in
the long term and in the short term, I'm not sure that this board can give you the short-term relief that you're looking for for the summer of 2025. Which is why I'm glad that Miss Brida brought up the concept of despite our limitations, are there
ways for you to still be able to have your business if we collectively can't give you the short-term deliverance that you would like while, as Jim said, working very clearly and together on the long-term solution. So, I just I think
it's important to make those distinctions. I I can only speak for myself. If if if I truly believe we had the ability for you to leave here tonight with the with the ability to sell shellfish from your home, then I would give it to you. But not lobsters.
I apologize. Thank you. To be more precise. I just don't believe we have that power. And it isn't unless somebody can can correct me. So I I the reason why I want to start there is because I understand what everybody wants for you. Okay? And I'm including my personal
opinion. I want for you to be able to sell lobster from your home this summer. Unfortunately, again, not through any circumstance that any of us have created, but we are responding to. We cannot give you that short-term solution
from your home. Which is why I'm glad that Miss Brida brought up the concepts, which I'm sure you've discussed with your council about what could you do this summer if you weren't in allowed to sell lobsters from your home. Does that does that make sense where I'm starting from? All right. Th this is my
suggestion. The great town of Yamoth that we live in, doesn't they have plenty of pieces of property on Route 28 that they could let Captain John sell this lobsters from? Again, I'm I'm not saying there's a lot of places on 28 and
I can look at them all. I'm lived here my whole life. Believe me, I know every road in this town. And so there's plenty of places where they could say like where old Sha Shay Leno used to be. Jimmy on the corner there. They're not using that property of it's in the
corner of West Yamoth Road in and Route 28. Why didn't they just say, "John, you can sell your lobsters there for the summertime or what other?" I'm I'm not dis I'm not disagreeing that that is that that is a possible outcome that I think would would probably be a conversation for you and your attorney
and maybe some other town officials. If I if I if I may, I'd like to I I would like as much as we can uh to stay on topic. Um, our process here tonight, uh, is one to move from
here to there. Um, and the the the relief that you're looking for for the summer. Um, I I is is not is not something we can give you. Um, unfortunately, why are we here? You're
you're here. And and again, I would like to have some decorum if you'd like to ask a question. Yes, I would. Yes, I would. Madam Chair, I believe I was in the middle of my comments, but I'm happy to defer. Why are we here if we're not going to get anything done? We are going
to get something done. What are we going to get done? We are going to get we are going to uh start the process of writing an amendment to the zoning bylaw for the town of Yarmouth so that he can sell lobsters from his home. Are we going to
do that tonight? We are starting the process to get him to the point where he can sell lobsters from his home. You realize we're in a time constraint here. I I fully recognize that. Could you ask him to identify himself? Darren, what we
can't do. I want to see what we can do. Identify yourself. Get it done. Craig Williams, South Yarmouth. Okay. What's your I'm sorry, sir. Craig Williams, South Y. Okay, Mr. Williams, we appreciate to several meetings now and it seems like everybody wants to talk about it, but nobody wants to do
anything. Well, sir, with all due respect, literally literally we are trying to do something here and we'd like to continue the every meeting there is. Nobody wants to do anything. It should have never got this far. Okay. Well, that is that's that's something I
can't comment on. We are here to get Mr. Tali what he wants. Okay. So, we're actually going to accomplish something tonight to get Mr. Tali to move forward. We're going to start the process to get it going. Yes. Yes, we are. For that. Yes, we are. Who aren't we? Move
forward. Let's go. That ain't gonna happen. Um Mr. Rubenstein had the floor again. if you have questions, if you have concerns, I'd like for all the planning board members to have their chance to comment and have any questions answered that they might have. So, I
appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Rubenstein. Thank you. So, again, I just want I just want to express the fact that I am frustrated that we literally are not allowed to give you the summer relief that you want. That is not the
fault of the people sitting up here. No, it is not. At the same time, as the chair said from the beginning, we want to do what we can do. And what we can do is work on the process so that when we get to November, we can go to special town meeting and the town of Yarmmouth
can decide after the process that we've gone through together to enact an amendment to the zoning bylaw that allows you to sell lobsters from your home. and I apologize that we're not able to give not just you but lots of other upset
people in the room the immediate relief that they want. I am sorry that we can't do that. But I'm also not we also can't sit up here and and vote on something that literally can't happen for the summer of 2025. So the good news is is that we've collected a lot of really
good ideas and we are limited by the rules in the town bylaws about what the planning board can and can't do. I know you. And for all of you out there that may one day be sitting on this side of the conversation, please understand that we are doing the very best that we can
under the situation and the bylaws and the rules of our town. And for those of you shaking your head, you don't know what you're talking about. We are trying to do the best job that we can. Literally, we are trying to do the best
job that we can and we are committed to working with you to get a zoning bylaw amendment for Mr. Tali so that he can sell lobsters from his home and there's nothing we can do about the fact that it will take until November to accomplish it. Why does it have to take so long?
Thank you, Mr. Slovak. John, do all parts of your business predate 82? Your licenses, your use of signage? You've always had signs out by 28 since you Oh, no. No, no. I haven't always said signs out on 28, but I've
sold sold from the house since 1975 75. Could Could you continue to do what you're doing without the signage? I mean, if there was a part uh there was if there was a part of what you do that wasn't grandfathered, could you continue to do what you do and survive or I'm just going to jump in here. Jonathan
Paloney again. I I don't want to distract attention away from kind of the purpose that we're here tonight, but just to because you're kind of talking about what happened with the ZBA. What happened with the ZBA was that there was the first hearing where John went by
himself had gotten some advice from the building commissioner and was asking for this voting board to vary the the bylaw to allow him to do what he was doing. The building commissioner hadn't flagged grandfathering. grandfathering wasn't discussed at that hearing at all and
they denied the variance. The only thing that they said was you can't sell lobsters in a B4 district. That's not what fishing means. So when I got involved after that, I asked Mark to reissue another enforcement so that we
could bring it back to the ZBA and ask them the grandfathering questions that we had done. you know, did a lot of zoning research to try and understand what the zoning bylaw said. And that's what we were hoping to do at the second ZBA meeting when everybody came to that thinking that we were going to have that
conversation around grandfathering. Now, as Will observed in that hearing, this is not what happened. The zoning board chose to say, "We already addressed that in the first hearing. We can't have the second hearing. We're not going to talk about it." And I think that's what's
underscoring some of the frustration that you're feeling tonight is that there has been this continuity of well-intentioned people along saying, "Well, we'll work this out. We'll work this out." John's been told that numerous times. And then you you get to a certain point and then the response
is, "No, we can't do that for you." I mean, that that was literally what happened at the second ZBA hearing was the chairman saying, "You're not allowed to be here because you lost your chance from the last hearing." So, we we're rigging up the grandfathering, I think, in a different manner to suggest that it
could be inserted into the zoning bylaw. Uh, I think to Jim's question, I don't think there's a problem with changing the zoning bylaw to call out a date. That's how a lot of, you know, zoning bylaw modifications work is by specifying what the date is that you're
going to judge things by. So, it seems a reasonable and and I'm happy to send an email with specific language, but if that just kind of clarifies the grandfathering thing, it it never got addressed by the zoning board. And so, we we are going to appeal that zoning board decision in the interim and see
where we can take that um and see what other relief we can get for John in the meantime. You had mentioned the agricultural use earlier. So, I mean, if he wanted a farm stand to sell tomatoes, he could do that. Well, I I yeah, in in the agriculture, you could you could
grow you could raise goats on your property in the residential district legally as an allowed use, but the shellfish doesn't didn't the wasn't part of the agricultural use. I mean, to me, fishing is an allowed use in the residential district. One of my arguments to the ZBA was going to be
this fishing is an allowed use and under the accessory use table, you can do other uses as long as they're not detrimental to the neighborhood. So my backup argument if they didn't want to go to the protected use you was to say this is actually allowed as long as you determine that it's not a nuisance to
the neighborhood and all of the neighbors were going to show up and they many of them submitted a letter saying we love John. We love his business. It doesn't impact us at all. We're very happy for him to continue doing what he's doing. So, it seems a little weird to me that an allowed use wouldn't be able to
present that to the zoning board, but that was essentially the zoning board's decision was we've we've already decided that you didn't appeal it. We're not going to take this up again. So, I I think that's wrong because how can you kind of procedurally just say an allowed
use can't happen anymore? But, we're going to work through that. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Yeah. Um, for full disclosure, Mr. Tully, I've bought lobsters from you and and thank you. Um, yep. You know, the bottom line is this
is what it really comes down to is that as will eloquently put, our hands are tied. There's a process that we can do and outside that process, I know it's disappointing for today. And, you know, we want to work with you. We want to make this happen. I didn't I wasn't born
in Yarmouth, but I've lived here since I was 15. And I don't want to see Yarmouth get away from its roots. I could catch you in the fishing part of it. And we I believe that I support I can as for the rest of the board, but I support what you're trying to do and how this board can help you get there. That's what
we're trying to work through the process. Madam Chair, Madam Chair, are you going to have a say or you going to wait? I'll wait. Okay. So my question is when we had that meeting Oh, were you up first? When we had that meeting with that zoning board that turned out to be a
click click, um they had a golden opportunity to step up to the plate and man up and say we made an honest mistake. Is that what is cuz was that what we were supposed to do? Go the zoning board and they double down and some they they could have
manned up and said we made a mistake. let's let's discuss it like you guys have opened up the discussion. You're you're talking you're listening to us. We didn't have a voice at all and it was extremely frustrating. So this zoning
board needs to step up. They're wrong. What they did was wrong and now you're telling him he's going to go back to the zoning board. Like really? We're all going to be going out in handcuffs at some point.
I mean, how many times you going to go back and forth to the zoning board? They should have stepped up at that last meeting. It's not looking good. It's not looking good. You keep on fighting, John. Fight, fight, fight. Garrett Garrett Stag. I've lived with
you for 25 years. I grew up in a family business on the cave. I started working when I was six years old. My family business. Okay. I'm extremely concerned that you're taking this man's livelihood away this summer. 100%. If you need us to go up in front of shop with some
clipboards in order to collect signatures from people from this town, I'll be the first one in order to stand there with the clipboard in my hand in order to collect signatures for him. It's shameful what you guys are. We're not doing Take that back. It's shameful
that the town of Yarmmouth as a whole is doing what they're doing by not letting him do what he wants to do for his li his living. It's unconstitutional with his own. You should be able to grandfather in him what he can do what he could do with his own property. You
should be able to even legislate zoning as far as I'm concerned. That's all I've got to say. Oh, the other thing I want to say I find it very interesting about you guys talk about signage problems. On my way here, driving down uh West Road, I passed by
the little strip mall there. They used to have the Radio Shack. The Radio Shack sign is still up. So, what's up with that? Why is there Why can't the town mitigate the Radio Shack sign? Radio Shack's been out of business for how long now? 5 years, 10
years. And you're talking about a signage problem. Are you kidding me? All set, folks. Help us. Help us. Help us. I'm Cheryl Ball, and I just think that common sense
needs to make a comeback. I think this town has really lost its way. Um, we really need to think about who we are and what we want to be. And we're losing what makes Cape Cod special. Um, guys like John Tally, you know, he makes he makes your arm special. And I think if
we lose him and then we lose a cranberry bog and we lose something else in something else, um, we're just really, you know, turning into any other town in any other city and any other state. And I think this is a lesson to everyone of what big government can do um, to a
small town. And we really need to find our way back to just being Yarmmouth. I think I think it's really important that we get back to the basics. We're just hearing the same things. So, Priscilla Hogan, South Yamoth, my
question is because I understand what the planning board is responsible for and it's changing the bylaws. So, who do you recommend that he goes to? Who would be the person to go to to get that he can continue while all of this gets settled? Who who would that be? Instead
of keep going from place to place, somebody town council, I don't know who it is, must be able to allow him to continue till this gets resolved in November. No, not November. No, because
it's not going to happen in November. Who would it be? Do you know? I I don't I don't I don't think I want to be in a position to recommend where Mr. Tali go for help this summer other than to say that he's already made
suggestions himself as has his attorney as to opportunities that might exist should he choose to pursue them. I don't know what the regulations might be uh for him to collaborate with another commercial business on 28 and set up a
truck. I don't know. I don't know what the re regulations are required were he to sell his lobsters off his boat at his slip, wherever that might be. That's at my house. Well, where you haul it out. Is there any way my my point is the planning
board is not in the position to recommend um the the highest and best solution for Mr. S Tal's unfortunate predicament he's in right now. Again, my position here, as is the
planning boards, is we want to help you get out of this. But our our position in terms of what we are able to do right now is merely and that I feel like that's what you think we're doing is
merely starting the process. It has to start somewhere or it doesn't get done. And we are starting it now. We are starting it now so that there will be a permanent solution for this issue in the future, right? Uh we're
going to move it as quickly as we can, right? We'll do everything we need to to to to make it happen. Um but in the end, it is town meeting that will decide, right? And I hope all of you and your friends and uh and associates will show
up for town meeting um and show this kind of support. That's the Yarmouth we are. I agree with you. This is this is this is not the Yarmmouth we want to show on public tele on on on national TV that a lobsterman
um is is is uh in a little bit of a predicament. That's not what we want. But my point Excuse me. I've done very little speaking tonight. I've done a lot of listening and I would
appreciate the same respect given to me and to the uh our our the person at the pulpit. So, um my point is we're not in a position to provide that kind of a recommendation, but I think Mr. Tal's
already found some ideas that he would like to pursue aggressively between now and and his first catch to get something going and I believe there might be a way to do that. I mean there are farmers markets. I don't know what all of those require. Um there are again you had
suggested town property on Route 28. Um there are commer collaborations uh with others. Um unfortunately I believe that's the responsibility for Mr. Holly and not certainly for the planning board if I don't know if it would be under
your per purview or not but is it um possible that they can hold off the stop the business till after the sum you know how they've not letting him do it I mean can they push it off knowing that everything is in the works so that he
can continue till things get squared away the zoning board of appeals decision is is a standing pos is a standing a standing position Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. S. Could I go back to um I apologize I didn't address this
at the beginning, but um one of the speakers uh Ari Bargo from the Institute of Justice. Y um is he still on? Mr. Barel, are you still with us? I don't see him on the I don't think so.
I'm here. I am here. I I was automatically muted, but I am here. There he is. Okay. So, you had mentioned, if if you don't mind, um the the the concept of homebased businesses uh banning of homebased businesses is unconstitutional. Did I hear that correct? I didn't say it
that broadly, but it can be absolutely. Yes. Could you send us uh some of your your documentation with regards to homebased businesses? Again, we want to we want to get things right the first time. We don't want to get things sent up to Boston to have them say you can't do that. So if there if there are some
things that you can share with this board that would be helpful, I would appreciate that. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bar. I'm also comfortable making recommendations now if you'd like to have them. Sure. If you could just forward them in the inst instance of time and and an NBA basketball game in
15 minutes. Um if you could forward them to our town planner, then I'm sure that our board will be able to look at them. Thank you. We'll do. Um, any other follow-up comments from uh board members? Uh, any follow-up comments from the
public? Um, I I'd like again I would like to uh thank you for for coming this evening. Um I I wanted to have this meeting be one that was informative, one where we
help the public as best we can understand um how we have to how we have to do things to get them done right so that we don't do them all over again. Um but in this case um for an amendment to
the bylaw, we need to carefully follow certain steps which we intend to do as expeditiously as we can to get Mr. Taly and others like him um uh some of these uh amendments and changes to the zoning
bylaw that seem to make to me an awful lot of sense. So I want to thank you all for coming. We really appreciate your time here. Um and watch for our agenda. We this will be on our agenda throughout the summer as we develop the language
that we intend to propose uh for public hearing. So thank you all for joining us. Are there some people that also would like to stick around for the on we're moving on to the second amendment change with regard to boat storage and recreational vehicles
on-site boat storage in residential zoning districts. people. Sit in the front if you want until Yeah. Can't handle all the history. Welcome. Welcome. Handle all the history and the stories. I have to make notes of this grand.
It's good. I'm I'm factbased person. process. He was not allowed to appeal. It was decided by one. See Mark Wilson in the So again, uh the second item uh on our zoning amendment agenda this evening, Madam
Chair, I think it's fair to ask people to take their conversation quickly clear the room. Madam Chair, we'd like to continue the meeting. If you could take your conversations out in the hallway, that would be uh really helpful. Thank you so much. All right. So, uh, with regard to on-site boat
storage and residential zoning districts, Kathy, would you like to give us the staff overview of this particular amendment? Sure. This is not the first time the planning board is has kind of taken a look at this. Back in 2019, we looked to modify some of the sections of the camping and recreation equipment to
address the locations of boats on residential properties, which right now need to be behind the front face of the building. We acknowledge that as a seaside community, there's a lot of people who have boats um that they want to keep at their residence, especially during, you know, the active boating
season. Um however, not all of these homeowners can easily on a daily basis get their boat off to the side. Uh I'm always impressed by people who can use the trailers and move their boats and and they park it on a dime and it's very impressive. Um so as such the planning
board investigated other sub acceptable locations for boat storage to reduce this amount of regulatory enforcement required for this zoning section. Um, basically what was presented was the first part paragraph stayed the same about um, the front face behind the front line of the building except for
loading and unloading, but then they added one lawfully registered boat may be parked or stored in a residential lot regardless of location relating to the building provided it does not create a traffic or fire safety issue and adequate on-site parking remains for the property. The idea is we didn't want people parking their boats in their
driveways and then parking their cars out on the street. Um we the planning board recommended this article and when they went to the select board um they voted unanimously not to recommend the article as some members were concerned about the possible aesthetics nuisance of posed to
neighbors as well as suggesting that maybe we need to have some type of distinction u between parking a boat during the boating season and then having maybe some offseason storage of a boat that's all shrink wrapped in someone's driveway. Uh ultimately the planning board voted to withdraw the article and it did not go before the the
voters. We understand that there's some um residents who are interested in uh reintroducing this idea um to allow for more flexibility in locations of boats on residential properties. Thank you. Um so I see we have uh two gentlemen at
the table. If you'd like to introduce yourselves. Sure. Uh my name is Alden Child's uh West Yarmouth. My name is Richard Gallagher. I'm not a resident of the of the town. Alden is my stepson and I'm here to uh assist him,
support him, that kind of thing. And um I would like to, if I may, and I appreciate uh Chairman Crowley, your um Chairwoman Crowley, your having us here tonight.
Um it's um very special for us to to be invited through your planner. uh Kathy and um we had a nice conversation. Um just a quick background if I may um
how and why we are here tonight. Alden and myself as you see there isn't 500 people behind us because we have found in our research that um when this
started with Alden if I well Mr. childs Alden. Um, and I would like to state for the record that my wife Susan is here and Susan is Alden's mother. Susan brought up two beautiful
children on her own. Single mother. Alden is one of them. When Alden got through school and and moved on in his career, he became a sworn police officer in the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts. Uh it was a great day to watch him go through the academy and graduate. He decided to make his home. He got married to a beautiful person. Um her name is Sarah and his have a beautiful daughter Olivia.
and uh he decided to make his home in Yarmouth. One of the dreams Alden had was to buy a boat someday. He didn't have those opportunities and privileges when he was younger. His mother had everything to do to raise them on her own.
And I say that only because in any uh discussion or any forum in front of a distinguished group of all of you, it's important that we uh institute the word compassion.
So Alden bought his boat and he's been living in uh he'll explain this better than I will because I'm just giving you a little background so you have some kind of something to go on as to why we uh are here tonight. When he bought his boat, he had
it for approximately four or five four or five years. He lives on Forest Road. He has a center console boat if any you're familiar with that. I've had a boat in my lifetime. I'm 74.
I've had a boat in my lifetime, about 40 to 50 years of that time, uh, in Hyannisport, Massachusetts, where my parents gave us the great privilege to be. And my brother now lives in that
same area, and he has a boat very similar to Alden's. Alden's boat is not unusual in terms of its size. It's 24 ft. Center console boats on Cape Cod and the surrounding waters is probably one
of the most popular boats that is out there. Having said that, it's a it's a majority of of the voters enjoy this kind of recreational voting. And I just for fun, I wanted to
just show you a picture of that. It's kind of this is the boat that all somewhat has. They're all pretty similar that you know there's so many companies now that make boats that happened well you go back to the 1971
bylaw the boating industry took off quite a bit. Fiberglass became very popular. The old mom and pop building of boats was they're still out there. Thank goodness we have that great tradition. So there's a lot of interest in boating. go to the boat shows, people
go in, they buy a boat. Unfortunately, a lot of them don't know what the sea is all about. And I know we've got something going uh uh to correct that, have a a better permitting pro licensing
process. So, when Alden got his boat, um which is a high value boat by the way, they're these boats are not inexpensive. They're not something you'd get at say the old Sears Robuck and the old tin rowboat. These are these are
boats that are meant to be on the sea. And he bought it with the safety in mind and the ability to to do multiple things with the boat under the category of recreation.
and he fishes, he cruises, he enjoys the sea, which is a remarkable thing. And a lot of people don't, and we understand that not everybody wants to be on the water, but it's hard to get away from
the fact that Cape Cod is surrounded by the sea. People come here to enjoy the sea, to take in the amenities that it it brings. And may I just add, the economic
engine that the boating industry brings to Cape Cod is very, very significant, overwhelming. So what does that mean? Well, anything when you talk about economics, it equates to taxes, excise
taxes that Alden very freely pays to the town of Yarmouth. And in our research, that number in the town we believe is around 35,000 to $40,000 a year to the town. Pretty significant. And so it also goes further
than that. It goes to the economics of the marinas, the employment, the equipment you buy for boats, the jobs that it creates on Cape Cod. Alden participates in that as just one
individual and he enjoys it so very very much. So when he got his boat and put it in his driveway, he did not know from the town that there was a a bylaw in any particular way. He did not
know about the 1971 bylaw. So when he got a violation from the town through the building inspector's office, it was a surprise because the first thing we wanted to know is we came down to the town hall, did our
homework. We went to every office that we needed to go to to get some facts. It was a factf finding mission, thoughtful, kind. Everyone was very, very helpful to us. Um Kathy was great. We we spoke to
the assessors. We spoke to all sorts of people to find out what the bylaw meant. What what was it? What was it written to do? What was it? What was the integrity of it? I can only speak for myself, but
when I first read that bylaw in 1971, I have to say to you, it was very poorly written. It did not separate out the recreational boats from campers. I'm here to speak for voting. I
I can't speak for campers. We're not here for that. That's what you have to decide. So, in reading it, and it wasn't very long. It didn't did not say anything about fines. It didn't say anything about if you didn't do this or
that. And so right away I said, "We we got to work on that and that's what I hope we can do with you." And getting the violation about a year ago,
Alden, I will be very honest with you, has been very stress. very emotional because we learned that we were not given the correct answer when we asked the question under the open meeting law
could we see at least the complaint do we see that we were given well I don't know we don't really have it and so forth but we were assured that it came from the
public we just learned learned last week after a year that that was false information. It came from within. So that's those are the facts. Um we're beyond that and we don't want to really go there tonight. We want to
stay on mission to try to get something better for all voters. So all them has kept his boat in his driveway on his trailer. He uses it practically every day he gets off his
shift if he can. It's the great stress releaser. He puts his life on the line every day. So I've had the opportunity to be Hyann's fire commissioner for 26 years. So I know what putting your life on the line is representing those
firefighters and recreational boating. If I may put this just read this into the record. It's it's interesting because in Webster's dictionary recreational is a refreshment in the
body or mind as after work by some form of play, amusement or relaxation, any form of sports or hobbies. So that's what he does. That's what he
did. And he minded his own business. Keeps the boat immaculate in his yard. So the law said or the inspectors said you have to put your boat on the side of your house or in the
rear. So that raises the question of common sense. I've had a boat. As I just said to you, my brothers had a boat in Barnstable. They don't get concerned about it. They're proboat quite frankly.
They just bought a marina. They bought a couple of Maras and because they understand how important as I just said to you the economics, the joy that we offer here on
Cape Cod to that industry. So Alden goes through a year we're waiting to hear. We finally we reached out to the board of selectmen. We wrote them a
letter. They referred it to the town manager. Not unusual. Never heard from the selectman or the chair. Not even a thank you note or nothing. So I I uh I was chairman when I was fire commissioner. That
that's personal, I guess. That's not something I wouldn't do. I would write back to that person, thank them for their opportunity to speak. So we get a little obviously a little upset over all of that. Again, that's yesterday.
What can we do with you to amend the bylaw to allow um I guess in 2018 you you re you visited this and it I think you recommended something and the board of selectment
apparently rejected it and then I guess it went to town meeting. I don't even know if it got to town. Did not get to No, it did not get to town meeting. Thank you. So we would like to try in representing all voters that for example a boat under 27
ft could be with in your driveway unrestricted shrink dropped in the winter shrink dropping I understand someone brought it up somewhere along the line was problematic. I don't understand that thinking but I'd like to know what is problematic about it. It's
it's part of voting. I mean, you want to protect a high value piece of equipment just like you would protect your SUV Cadillac on the driveway. You know, it's so we'll get through that I with all of you. We can we can work on that. That's
all we're trying to do. In the end of all of this is we were out, my wife and I, Alden was working in our research and factf finding. We asked a few people, a few
residents. We started to notice multiple multiple boats in Yarmouth in driveways. We we uh campaigned or better word would be we asked people that had
boats in the driveway, "Have you ever had a violation?" No. We've been here 20 years. Never had a violation. Do you know that there's a bylaw about parking your boat in your driveway? Never heard of
it. We asked enough people to We could continue this and we we probably will. We we're we're very familiar with that, sir. Excuse me. We're very familiar with that issue. Okay. Of where which is why Okay. Which is why we're here tonight.
Exactly. To address the amendment that we think might work. So, if if I could ask you, we'd like to look forward and not back. We I truly appreciate your comments about the specifics for you,
Aiden. And but we we have a we have an idea for what we would like to propose um that we will we tried once before um and we thought we had almost crossed the finish line uh but we didn't. Um so we
are looking for your suggestions on what you would like a a a revised zoning bylaw to look like. We have one up here on the screen uh that is pretty open-ended. Um and I would appreciate if
you have any suggestions or comments on that particular that particular language that we have here right now. That'd be great. Um and as the proud owner of a Parker 18 center console, uh I will tell you um I'm I'm with you on this one. Um,
so, um, and I'm not sure what Aiden would like to say, but we'd like to also engage with others who might want to have something to say as well. I don't know if we have anyone on Zoom. We do not. We do not. Um, so, uh, so if you have any particular specific comments
with regard to what's up on the board behind Kathy, we'd appreciate that. Well, that would be great. U, Madam Chairman, we appreciate that. Again, we're not here to be in any way negative. We're here to try to make something work as as we are for
everybody. Yeah. That's why we're here too. For everybody because the bylaw of 1971, it's it's 50 years old. Yeah. And we knew that. We knew that back in 2017 was was was put out there for a reason. They do it in the state house every day.
Somewhat in the Congress every day. Not recently, but but any event, thank you so much. Now, I'd like all would like to just say a few words. I thank you for letting me speak. Yeah, that's you. You are certainly welcome. That um I'm a citizen,
you know, though I I love voting. This is a great place to do it. You don't do it in Dova. You don't do it in Actton. Don't do it in Brookfield. So, thank you so much. Certainly. Alden, any comments? Um, no. I would just like to
say, um, obviously I have a small property um, and driving around town, I see a lot of other small properties that have the same issue that I have. Um, but obviously that what you have written up there um, is pretty spot-on. I would agree with um, just include maybe a
trailer with it. Um, um, but yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't add too much more to that. I think you guys have it squared away there. It's good information. And and again the the the concept here from a while ago
was we don't want the the the parking of the vessel to be now uh taking the space where a car would ordinarily be. We don't want to move the car to the street. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Um the only
other comment that I add on the bylaw saying that put it on the side of your house or in the rear. It's just unfeasible. And I Whoever rode it just doesn't understand that. You don't take a high value boat and shove it in some
brush and or shove. No one parks a boat in the back. Who wants to park a boat in the backyard? First of all, you can't get there without getting stuck or you know, it's not made for that. So, it it really doesn't have much merit. But that's all I can tell you. Not an uncommon bylaw, though. That that is
other communities have that. That's not just a Yarmouth. I've seen that. Cod communities. Oh, they may. They may. I'm not saying they don't seen anything on Cape Cod, but I've seen I've seen other states um for sure, but I I'm not aware of anything locally. So, keep in mind,
we checked about five, six towns. Chattam, Sandwich, I think Felma, Dennis, Dennis, they don't bother you. Well, we will check. Get it. They get They get this is what we do. They may have made amendments themselves between now and when we last had one. and we will we
typically do a comparison um across all of the towns. Uh so we will mo more than likely engage and see what's out there for everybody else. Um but I'd like to ask if any if you have any other comments and if not I'd like to open it
up to anyone else who would like to um would like to finally when we found out that there weren't many uh people complaining we did get a record of that finally. It took me some time under the open meeting law, but we got it a couple of days ago. They didn't give me the
last two years, which was requested. Don't know why. Obviously, all them got one and but it went back, but they were they were minimal. Over a 50-year period, there weren't many people that are complaining. So the ones that are complaining, is there any way that they
can deeply and explain themselves specifically specifically what their problem is with a boat? I know we talked about we don't want to have a junkyard boatyards at home. We don't want 10 cars in your driveway, but this is not what's
happening. This a boat is a very beautiful thing in terms of what we do on the cave. So it's hard been hard for all of his boat has been in my driveway all winter. Had to move out of Yamoth. That's how that's what Yamoth
said. Mhm. Get out. Well, we're looking to we're looking to make some improvements here. So you're welcome. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. My name is Jerry Oonnell. Um, I apologize because I have a camper and a boat in my driveway and um and I know about the
law, but uh anyways, please send it to the select board after May 20th. Thank you. We're not going to ask why that would be. I just have a question. Um, how long has that identify yourself? Could you just remind us who you are please for the record? Cheryl Ball. Sorry. Can you say
that? Cheryl Ball. Thank you, Cheryl. Yeah. How long has this been the bylaw in Yarmouth? 1971. 1971. 1971. Because Yeah. I I will say that the entire time I've lived in Yarmouth, I had no idea that was even a law because there's boats everywhere in everybody's driveways. I'm, you know, it's one of
the things that makes me feel blessed to live on Cape Cod is to see a boat in the driveway because I know I'm near the water. So, thank you, Carol. I don't, Madam Chair. I mean, I don't think the building inspector goes looking for problems, you know. I I think if it's presented to him or he's going to follow
up and then that's usually how it comes through. That's exactly how it comes through. Got enough to do. He doesn't go looking for it. No, it could be that the, you know, the the boat appears in the front yard or two boats appear in the front yard which brings attention to
it and therefore others uh neighbors or others uh might then um uh uh uh speak with the building commissioner about that. Madam Chair, may I ask Aiden a question? Aiden, you said that I'm sorry. Alden, excuse me. Um that your
boat wasn't a neighbor's complaint. That's what you found out. From my understanding, it was a complaint about a camper uh at the beginning of my road and so he issued a violation to them and then drove around Yeah. the neighboring area to find what else was there. So So
did he issue a complaint to you or just was it verbal? Uh I got a written letter. You got a written letter. Okay. So on that issue, the problem that we were finding was the attorney attorney general's office stated there is no confformity or
uniform in the enforcement in Yama. It's not good. I think the actual request for this change came from the building commissioner because he didn't want to have to deal with this because he understands we're a voting community. So this actually came from the building.
The building commissioner. Yeah. Mark Gillis, I think, wrote something a few years ago agreeing with this. So, yeah. Any other comments from the public? Uh, any uh questions or comments from the members of the board? Madam Chair? Yes,
if I may, Mr. Um, I can empathize. I once had a sticker put on my boat for being parked in front of my house, uh, and had to move it and it wasn't on a trailer, so I had to hire somebody to come move it. So, I I understand that. I know the bylaw now.
Um, whenever we bring something to town meeting, the whole idea is to get it passed. And to get it passed, you need, correct me if I'm wrong, 2/3 majority vote on a zoning article. So, this is going to require twothirds of the people
that show up to town meeting to say, "Yeah, they're okay with this." With regards to your question about people who are opposed to it, we'll have hearings between now and then and at town meeting. They will have their opportunity to tell us why they think we shouldn't, if there are such people. Um,
apparently last time there were some issues that that board of selectmen March of 2019. I'm not sure if any of them are still even on the board. Maybe maybe Mark might be. Um, so I don't know what their objections were. Um, again,
the idea is to try to get something passed. So, if there are objections, um, we want to find out what those are and and try to write this new bylaw that will address those again. So, twothirds of the majority of people in town will will support them.
Um, Peter had asked the question, are any other towns restrict storage? I'd be interested to know what kind of bylaw they have that that restricts it that may be any different than ours. Uh, I'll I talked to Dennis this morning and they instructed me to go online and page 11
and I'll go do that, but I was busy the rest of my day. Um, to look at their bylaws. Um, and maybe there are some some uh compromises. I I appreciate the comment with regards to boat size. So, maybe part of this new bylaw that we're
trying to get through allows you to store a boat under 27 feet. and maybe we have a discussion about whether you can have it during the boating season and stir it elsewhere for the winter months. Um, that's another part of the
discussion we could have. Uh, it's my understanding that dry do marine is closed or closing. So, they're that solution for storing offsite makes it even more difficult. And again, these are the things that I think we need to discuss through this process to try to come up with a bylaw that says, "Yeah,
you can park a boat in your yard, but you've got to do this, this, this, and this." Um, so, you know, I think like the last group that was here, this is step one of a process. um any suggestions that you have or or even
other people are in the community here that us that if you think it's a good idea to restrict the size of the boat or maybe you don't want us to have them stored in the winter months, we need to hear that so that we craft this bylaw in a way that is beneficial to the community and that we pass it at town
meeting. Um, the distinction between campers and boats, I kind of get why they're all put together. They're recreational vehicles typically used
very similarly. Summer months start. That's how I use my camper and my boat. I use them in the summer and put them away in the in the winter. Full disclosure, my camper is parked in Dennis because I can't park it in front of my house. So, I understand I'm supportive of of getting a bylaw passed,
but um it's got to be one that that twothirds of the people in town think are is acceptable. So, any input as far as what if if the select board was a is this the same bylaw that was presented in 2009 with the the amended
right 2019? 19. I'm sorry. Yeah, this is exactly it, the article and and I did look back at the minutes from that meeting and that's where I I gleaned those uh comments with with regard to concerns about possible aesthetic nuisance can be posed to neighbors and then also just suggesting the
distinction between parking a boat during the boating season and offseason storage of boats which may be shrink wrapped. I think that was Eric Tally. Yeah. So, it sounds like part of the issues are, you know, a a shrink wrapped boat in your front yard is ugly. Um, and I and I also understand the concerns
with regards to fire safety. I don't think we want to allow, you know, a 27 foot boat parked um horizontally in front of the front door so that you and your service or the our other first responders can't get there for whatever the reason. So, I understand how we're
trying why there's a reason for this. We need to just tweak it so that it works for the people and for the community as a whole. So, just be patient with us. We're trying to get that done. Madam chair, another another part to piggy back on what Jim started to say is
that I don't know that Yarmouth where can we park boats by right. You know B3, you know, if you wanted if I want went want to go buy an acre of land tomorrow and fill it with boats, I don't think we can do it by right in town, right? Oh, I I I don't think you can do it by right. As also in the aquifer protection
district, and I know that they think when boats are stored uh in the winter time, they still have their gasoline in them. Is there some or they need to have a certain fuel amount of them? Yeah. So, there were some concerns um when someone wanted to do that, a very large one um about storing all of those types of
things in our aquifer protection districts, right? But I mean our we have many of our houses are in the APD as well. So, you know, you're storing them on Whites Path, you're storing them in Captain's Village. What's the difference? So, I mean that's why I'm saying maybe we need to look at our zoning again and decide how how somebody can do that. Do more boat storage. What
you mean? I right. I think Peter's right because if we write a bylaw that says you can't store it in your yard in the winter, well, where's they going to store it? So, we need to be able to make sure that there's a there's an avenue there for them to be able to find alternatives to that should we go that route. Right. And
some of it's some of it's already grandfathered, some of it off the corporation. Um, correct. I don't know. I know the boatyards that are down there, but I mean, so they're storing boats now, but I think that was all 2004ish, 2003ish, and then all of a sudden something happened and they don't
allow it at all by right. I mean, dry dry dock was in there. I remember because I read the special permit going back a long time ago and I think it was Brandin at the time considered it trucking. He found the use code that allowed it to continue or something. So, but they wouldn't be able
to do that today. That right? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Madam Chair, there's a member of the public. Ready? Any any other comments or questions from the the the board? Um, we do have some members of the public.
No, it's a gentleman right there. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, sorry. I thought you public, Madam Chair. People say IRL in real life. Here he is. IRL. There we go. Hi, my name is Joe Dellesio. I'm from uh
West Yamoth. Um, I like the language that is written right there. Uh, particularly I don't like um putting a a disclaimer for the winter months. A lot of us voters buy small boats so we can store them at our house because the cost is astronomical and very limited,
especially now with the closure of of uh the storage over by the over by the dump. So, I mean, it's hard to find places to store boats. Um, most of us boers are very meticulous and uh we take care of them. We wrap them. They're
clean. They don't, you know, they don't look uh bad or anything like that. So, that language there, I think, makes it very clear. It's for residential people that use their boating for residential reasons. Um, you know, I'm not going to make a safety hazard at my house, but
that's addressed in there. So, I hope that you don't alter that language to to make it more difficult. uh for those of us that trailer boats and store them as well. So, thank you. Thank you.
Hello. Hi, good evening. My name is Julie O'Brien. I'm a full-time resident here in South Amth. I also am a boater. I have a 20 foot uh not a center console. Well, that's on my bucket list. I have a dual console. And uh and I didn't know about this this um bylaw when we purchased the boat about 5 years
ago. And um I do like this wording. Uh, I appreciate actually all your um uh involvement here and your advocacy for yourself and others. I like the the fact that you put the trailer language. Um, couple of concerns. Definitely the
storage uh in the offse um very expensive. We happen to do that now because I don't have a trailer, but when we get a trailer and our goal is to winterize it, um, and wrap shrink wrap it and have it in our, uh, in our yard, which happens to have two driveways
right now. Um, and we don't have access to the backyard. Um, and so, and I agree with the previous uh, speaker, absolutely agree. It's a very very um expensive even for a 20 foot, you know, it's and
and a lot of Boers like to, you know, get larger boats. So that that's a concern as well. So I um I want to make sure that um you know, that's a consideration of the of the board before it goes to, you know, the select border
town meeting. Um and and not add that wording for for um you know, for the storage. I think that's really going to cause a lot of issues for many of us and I'm just one of the newer rookie voters. Um, and then adequate on-site parking. I guess that's the question is that's kind
of vague. Adequate on-site parking. I'm not asking for to be more specific, but the only concern is many of us have driveways and maybe some shells, you know, rocks in the front that actually aren't there's no sidewalk on my street, but you know, maybe um if there's no
sidewalk, um there might be an area where we might want to put the boat. It's just a concern we have the adequate adequate on-site parking. It's kind of vague. I don't have an answer to it, but um right now for me and my wife and my
family, it works. We have two two driveways um in the front. Madam, thanks for your time. M touch on the adequate on-site parking. It just the the reason for that piece in there so we don't displace a motor vehicle. You have your boat in your driveway. Now you have no
place to park your car. So you're moving that out into the street. That's not what we want to have happen. That's really the the way that language is written in there for. No, that makes sense. Understood. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Any other comments from
uh the public? Okay. And any other comments from plenty board? So Kathy, we we'll we'll continue to work on this. Did you want us to discuss this in any more detail this evening or Nope. I think that gives us a lot of good information. I just want to
let people know that the town of Planning Board is working on our local comprehensive plan update and we have a lot of mixeduse projects that's next on our agenda that we're going to be talking about. So, this probably won't be something that will you'll see on an agenda with the planning board until July, but we have plenty of time to
process it before special town meeting. Okay. Madam Chair, may I just add one thing? Sure. On the issue of the boat possibly in any new amendment being uh having to move it in
the winter versus having it all summer is problematic. there. As someone just eloquently said, it's expensive. It's u it's unreasonable because if you're doing it in the summer, what's the difference in the
winter? Again, I I I can only speak for myself because I've had a boat and no one's ever questioned our boats in so Yamouth is different. They got different things. They think differently that's clearly. But so I would hope that you
could just please work that in. As I said earlier, no restrictions if it's done right. And also anyone that's going to have a boat in their driveway has to adhere to the rules like Alden does. He's a great
example. I'm sure there's many others. They have to. That's the way that's the way it should be. They have to have some kind of discipline. But these are very high valued boats. They're very beautiful to, you know, tell someone move your boat and the warrant to wear. I they the insurance on
it. I use an example that may not be what you want to hear, but these people today, they buy an SUV, Cadillac, pack up that driveway, and you if you were to tell them, if you didn't have a garage, get it out of here in the winter, I think you'd have a, you know, an issue.
So, that's my point. Yeah. We we So, I hope you can fit that into something. We we appreciate we appreciate that and we've heard that from a couple of other people. As we move forward in this process, you'll see some language as it progresses and we'll appreciate your comments on that um in the future. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. Thank
you. We appreciate it very much, Mr. Gallagher, Mr. Childs. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Uh our third item, uh I don't have anything specific with regard to the accessory dwelling units. I just wanted to be sure to keep it in here because we
were talking. This might be the first time the public is seeing the different types of zoning amendments that we'll be looking at for special town meetings. So, I don't have anything further on ADUs at um I did want to mention one thing. Sandwich at their town meeting did approve a bylaw amendment that's
their you know match up to the to the state. I have not seen it uh but I did read in the paper that they uh at town meeting Monday I believe Monday night. Was it addressed at Dennis last night? There was one other town. So, I'm glad you brought that up. Sandwich, I think.
No, I know Sandwich did. I'll have to do a another Monday. Can I just ask a follow-up question, Madam Chair? Yes, you may. Has there been any Have you had more convers has town councils got lots of things to do? I haven't been able because you're obviously got other things to do, but there's still the
window of opportunity, correct? Later in this year and still to make the special town meeting. Yes, that's the goal. Milestones. Um the local comprehensive plan is the number one goal of the select board. So I'm really concentrating on that. Um the regulations, the CMR that has been done
by the state. Um I mean the building commissioner is able to enforce the portions that are enforceable but then not enforcing the sections that aren't enforceable. I'd like to get it corrected so it's all in one place so when people look at our zoning bylaw, they know what they can and cannot do. And um but we need to concentrate on the
local comprehensive plan. Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. S. Just a kind of a quick followup to that. In the meantime, we're enforcing what we can. Yes. What about the uninforcable stuff? How is there a how is he handling that? Well,
for example, I mean, owner occupancy, you know, that the resident, the owner res can't do that. So, somebody doesn't have to be that. Uh, we require two parking spaces. We can't require that. It's only one parking space, but if you're in half a mile of the transportation center, it's none. We can can't require any. So, there's some very
specific things that were in there, but things that like it can't be a short-term rental, that's still valid. We're allowed to make those those um distinctions. So, that's something that is enforceable. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Next item on our agenda, local
comprehensive plan. Kathy, um I think we have Jeremy Lake um who is our consultant. um and hopefully he's been promoted to um a participant analyst and has been given access to share his screen because he has some information. We're going to talk a little bit about
what Union Studios is going to be doing for us with the mixed use. We've talked to to BSC Group and you'll see in your packet an upgraded benchmarking that they did. They also included um a ninth benchmarking from some information that Peter sent uh with regard to a property
in Dennisport. Um but then um Union Studio is going to take that information and kind of move forward with with the project and he's going to go over that a little bit. Hopefully Jeremy is is there. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, there you are. Yep. Hi everyone. Good evening.
All right, Kathy, do you want me to jump right in? I would love you to jump right in, my friend. Awesome. We all love that. I will start by saying thank you all for your service. as board members, I don't think people say thank you enough. And I was a witness to Lobstergate earlier, and I know it can be a little bit difficult and challenging, but appreciate what you
guys do. It really is uh it's a it's a big public service again that most people don't really appreciate the work that you guys put in. So, so thank you for doing so. Um so, let me jump in. I wanted to start by sort of introducing who we are and and again sort of have a bit of a discussion about the effort
that we have coming soon. Um with that, I'm going to request that I can share my screen. And once I can share my screen, I'll call up just a quick little set of slides I wanted to run through. So hopefully Liam is doing that for you. Yeah, it looks looks like it just came
through. So let me pull this up. And so just let me know when you guys can can see that title slide. Looks like it's working on it. Not yet here. says that it's paused. So, it's changed color.
Still can't see it. It's working. It's trying to do it. It's trying. This reminds me of the DSL internet days. got even d I mean I was trying to give them a little more credit than dialup. But of course, no one else in this room younger than us knows what we're talking
about, but that's besides the point. If for some reason it doesn't work, I have the slides here up on our um screen. I don't know if you can see us, but you can tell me when to change change the slide to forward it. Okay, I'm going to try one more time real quick, and if it doesn't work, we'll we'll definitely go
that route. Give it If you've got them up though, I can certainly go that route, too. Yeah. I just don't know if you can see them when I have them up. It's showing. Let's see. Um, I can I think I can see him. So, I think we'll be in good shape there. Oh, I think Liam showed the screen. So, perfect. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, just let
me know when you need me to switch it around. Perfect. Go ahead and you can advance to the first one. Um, and I'll just lead off by saying, you know, good evening. My name is Jeremy Lake. Um, I'm a principal at Union Studio Architecture and Community Design. Um, we're a almost
25-year-old practice at this point. We were founded in 2001. I've been there for about 12 or 13 of those years. Um, we are based in Providence, Rhode Island, but we also have a small office in Philadelphia as well. Uh, and we have 36 employees who are a mix of architects, planners, and designers. Uh,
you can go ahead to the next slide. And our mission is to use the power of design to enrich lives and strengthen communities. Go ahead to the next one. Um, and this is just sort of a smattering of our portfolio. We work on a wide range of architectural and and
community neighborhood design type projects. Um, I will say the majority of work our work tends to center around housing and all shapes, sizes, and forms including mixed use. Um, and we also do, you know, community design, everything from little pocket neighborhoods up to town centers and doing stuff like this,
working with communities on trying to envision how to, you know, either incorporate density or, you know, understand how things like form-based codes are working or aren't working. So, we're really excited to be a part of this. Um, and I'll just highlight on this particular set of images, a couple of these are mixed use. The upper right
hand corner, uh, that's Westminster Street here in Providence. our our office is actually the second floor of the little two-story black structure in the middle there. Um, but we were part of a big revitalization effort on some of these existing older buildings. Uh, and actually the building in the foreground is a new building that we
designed that again is residential over commercial. Um, the image in the bottom center there is Hammet's Wararf. That's a new boutique hotel over commercial in Newport. Um, so again, we're we're familiar with mixed use. You know, a lot about the the issues, challenges, and possibilities that it allows for. if you
want to go ahead to the next image. I also wanted to share even though we're in Providence, we we have done a lot of work out on the Cape, continue to do a lot of work out on the Cape. Um I've just again included a number of examples here. Everything from some cottages uh in Dennisport. We have a couple single family 40B communities.
Um their maritime landing, Brewster Landing. Uh the lower right is Captain's Row, which are some small um uh multif family types that we did in in Hyannus. Uh, and the lower left is actually an example of a mixeduse structure that's on Main Street in Hyannus. That was a conversion, a commercial building that
was converted to to residential over commercial space. Um, so again, we're we're not on the Cape, but we're we're out there quite quite frequently uh and working on on a variety of projects out there. Go ahead to the next one. And by the way, at any point, feel free to interrupt me if you have questions or comments. I don't mind
that. Um, I thought I would also share just two efforts we've done in in recent years that I think lend themselves to, you know, this effort and I think will help you visualize some of what we're probably about to do here in the coming weeks. Um, the first was an effort called community resiliency by design. This was an effort we did with the Cape
Cod Commission a couple of years ago. This was a precoid effort. Uh, you can go ahead to the next slide. Um, and really what this was about was the the the Cape Cod Commission was interested in trying to start illustrating the idea of incorporating moderate sort of levels
of density because they they know with the you know housing crisis that's out there and as towns are trying to figure out how to incorporate more housing, how do you do so in ways that still feel sympathetic and like it belongs in the various villages around the Cape. Um and and this is a diagram we generated that tried to illustrate this range of types
that really slot anywhere between you know a single family home on the left end there and a you know a typical multif family building on the right end. You know zoning historically really just kind of broke everything into those two very simple categories. And the reality is there are all these types that were really prevalent preWorld War II. Uh
including some examples on the Cape. It's kind of hard to find many just because not a lot of development happened on the Cape prior to World War II. Um but these things exist out there. Uh, and we were going around and working with a number of communities just talking about this issue, trying to get ahead of some of the zoning changes and things that that the commission knew was
was going to be coming down the pike. If you go ahead to the next slide. Um, with that effort, we did a number of visualizations like we were going to be doing here with you guys. Um, so again, we in in the first three towns we worked with, Falmouth, East and Orleans identified some properties where we thought we could do a little bit of a
sort of illustrative test fit showing the types we were talking about. And a number of these also were, you know, on their main street mixeduse corridors. And so sometimes we illustrated mixed use as a potential portion of what those might look like. Uh, and these three examples illustrated, you know,
densities in the range of 10 to 15 to 20 units to an acre, which is comparable to the densities you guys actually allow for in your village center overlay district. You can go ahead to the next one. Uh, an additional town we worked with was South Sandwich with that effort and
they had a the town owned a big parcel of land uh, in South Sandwich and wanted us to kind of again show what could be done if you deployed these types there. And one of the things I just wanted to illustrate, you know, the the red zone that was out by the road, out by the uh, existing grocery store that was next door. We were talking about how these
type almost any one of these typologies again we were talking primarily about residential but in almost any of those types you could imagine if there's commercial on the ground floor that really is what becomes you know that sort of village scale mixeduse that I think all of us are wishing and hoping would be the sorts of things that would
turn up in in in context like route 28 here uh in Yarmouth go ahead to the next one and then a much more recent uh effort that is much more directly applicable to what we're talking about here with you guys um just a year ago in in West Chadam, uh we were working with
them on some visualizations. Go to the next slide. Um they similarly had a mixeduse district. In this case, they are contemplating allowing a new formbbased code to try to promote mixeduse development in this portion of town that they've identified as the West
Chatam Neighborhood Center District. We were asked to review the proposed formbbased code, do some visualizations to help the broader community understand what was being um suggested in those regulations because this was going to have to go to town vote. And so obviously they want to make sure people
could really understand. You know, most people don't have any sense of zoning regulations or what any of these things imply. Um and and similar to what we're talking about here, we had identified three sites that are highlighted in orange that were in that district that kind of represented a a spectrum of some of the conditions that we expected to
see there. You can go ahead to the next slide. Um you know, some of those were were not not really all that developed current. Some were were largely already pre-developed. Um some were on a corner condition, some were narrow and deep. And again, the idea, if you go ahead to the next slide, was we we looked at
those in a couple of different scenarios in terms of one that's purely mixed use, uh, one that be might be mixed use in front with some residential beyond. Uh, the one in the middle even suggests the potential of there being some singlestory commercial in front with the residential in back. So, still mixed use
overall as a parcel, maybe not building by building, um, but still, I think, largely achieving what the goals and objectives of that were. And again through this process highlighted a few of the things that were in their proposed formbbased code that we thought were a bit of a challenge. Things like the building heights and you know some of the other requirements for parking
etc. And just fostered a bit of a conversation with them about that. But again ultimately the goal here was that they would be able to utilize these visualizations as part of their ongoing outreach with the broader community. Next slide. Uh so that brings us here to to
you guys in Yarmouth here. The uh mixed youth study along Route 28. Uh next slide. Obviously your your village center district is a much broader area than than the West Cadam um area was, but it's the same kind of idea, right? There is this uh commercial strip that
comes through. Currently isn't as mixed as we wish it could be. Great opportunity for adding some residential that's that's desperately needed in all of these communities. um conditions of sort of the intensity of commercial along that route, but really often you almost transition immediately into single family
residential just beyond it. So, how are you sensitive to some of those conditions? Even the presence of Swan Pond and some of the more, you know, the wetter areas that are behind it to the north, you know, there's a a variety of conditions that are out here and well as well. Um not to mention the fact that you guys actually have these sort of
subdists within the the village center. of the VC1, the VC2, the VC3, the VC4, you know, how do we think about those and and maybe talk about how they things might be slightly different between each of those districts as an illustrative example. Go ahead to the next
slide. Um, in terms of our process, I think you guys are aware of some of these milestone dates. You know, because of the grant we are working with, you know, we really have to get our effort done by the end of June, basically in two months. Um, so these were just sort of the the highlevel deadlines or or milestones that we know we have before
us. We kicked it off last week. I came out and walked the site and and talked to town staff about the effort. Um, we're here tonight to talk to you guys, have a preliminary discussion about what we're thinking about showing, but definitely want to get your input before we put pencil to paper. Um, we'll be back in front of you guys again on June
4th. Uh but in the interim between now and then, we will certainly be meeting with town staff to review um some of the things that we're coming up with the the draft schemes that we're showing for these illustrative sites. Also, some of our recommendations around how you might modify the zoning. Uh importantly, I should know part note part of our team
is the Horsesley Whitten Group who helped write the village center overlay district guidelines that you guys passed a couple of years ago. Um and so we think it'll be great having their insights, having already been involved with a lot of the conversations that happened previously. Um so they'll be involved in in all of these steps moving
forward. Um so we'll be back in front of you June 4th to talk about what we've come up with and and to get your your further feedback and input. Um in midJune we plan on hosting a a panel discussion uh primarily with with people that are involved in in development locally um to really get their feedback
and input on what the hurdles they see are what some of the challenges are to show them even what we've come up with to kind of get a little bit of their input. Uh and then we'll be back in front of you at the end of June on the 25th to you know present all of the above what we've heard, what we've seen, what we found out. Um hopefully to help
inform your next steps. Uh so you can go ahead to the next slide which is sort of the last slide. Um so here what we've started to show I I know Kathy was in front of you guys at your last meeting talking about this idea of illustrating a range of
opportunities by showing sort of three different sites. Again, we the goal here is to make these a little bit generic. We don't want to confuse anybody that we are, you know, literally proposing a new project on some of these properties. So, the idea here was to try to, you know, base these on conditions that we see fairly frequently up and down the
village center. Um, but to sort of make them a little less specific, but I I still think very informative and very instructive in in terms of showing some of the options or some of the challenges that we might see here. Um, I think as Kathy talked to you, you know, one of the ideas was to do a 1acre site, a
2acre site, and a threeacre site and to show how there's a range of different things that become possible as you get a little bit more ground. There aren't a lot of sites that are larger than 3 acres. Um, there certainly are some, but we thought 1, two, and three were certainly representative of the majority of conditions we might expect to see out
there. Um, we also tried to differentiate the three of them with some of the other things that might um, impact what we draw or show for these contexts. So for instance, the 1acre site is what we're calling sort of an interior lot. You know, that's just one of several, you know, lots that are are
marching down Route 28 that are sort of midblock. They aren't necessarily on a corner condition, but but are just somewhere in the middle. Uh whereas you can see on the other two sites, we're showing this idea of them being potentially on a corner, which creates its own set of challenges and opportunities. Now you have sort of two frontages. So what do you how do you you
know address those sites differently? How do you think about those a little bit differently uh between the two sites that are corner conditions? Uh the middle one, the twoacre site, we tried to think of it as maybe there's a site where you know both the Route 28 frontage but also the frontage on the side street still has largely commercial
uses across from it. So there might be pressure to think of both of those edges still as mixed use. Whereas in the third scenario, um the threeacre lot, you know, we know there's plenty of up areas where, you know, the the current commercial lot might be fairly deep, but really the pressure on the commercial
development is right up on Route 28. And when you get off on some of these side streets, it actually transitions pretty quickly to residential. So maybe there's a condition here where the pressure on commercial is in front, but the the the direction in back might want to go a little bit more purely residential.
Um, some of the other differences we tried to highlight maybe the, you know, as we saw on the north side of Route 28, you know, there's plenty of lots that back right up to the woods and the wetlands all along the sort of swan pond area. Uh, so maybe in one of them we would show what it would be like if it, you know, backed up to a natural area,
whereas the other two show the more common condition where you have residential single family homes uh, generally just behind the the commercial properties. Um, we thought we would vary the districts that they're in. So one's in VC1, one's in VC3, one's in VC4. Uh
we left VC2 out just because that one does doesn't require mixed use. It could be residential. Um and so since we were we were looking for three uh examples, we thought it made sense to focus on those other three. Um, and then the last thing I wanted to share is, you know, as we've started to sort of brainstorm how
we might try to then further differentiate what we're illustrating between the three, um, and and looking at these sort of conditions we've created in in these hypothetical situations. It struck me that it's probably likely that the 1acre site is where we will show an example um, where
there's maybe a single mixeduse structure that's at the front of that site with all of the parking behind. Um the twoacre site again that has commercial frontage on two sides. Maybe that's a condition where we show multiple mixeduse structures. Some of them on route 28, some of them off on
the side road. Um and on the 3acre site again because of the condition where it transitions really to residential um once you turn up on the side road. Maybe that's one where we show this idea of there being commercial structures in the front of the site and residential structures more towards the back of the
site. so that individual structures aren't mixed use, but the overall site includes a mix of uses. Um, and then lastly, thinking through, you know, one of the things I know your your VCOD regulations allow for is really a range of mix of how much commercial, how much
residential. So, again, we would like to try to explore, you know, showing three different ranges of of of that between the three. So, one thought I had on the 1acre site was to maybe suggest, you know, thinking if that's a three-story building, if the ground floor was commercial and the two upper floors were
residential, you'd have a mix that is essentially 33% commercial and, you know, 67% residential. Um, on the two acre site, if we maybe imagine that the two buildings wrapping the corner are both at two stories, it doesn't always have to push, you know, the limits of the height. Um maybe we think of it
being 50% commercial, 50% residential, the commercial on the ground floor of those buildings, residential above. And then lastly on the 3acre site, if we have some commercial buildings up front, but really have purely residential towards the back, maybe that's one that just skews a little bit more towards, you
know, the residential program. You I think the maximum aotment is something like 85% residential uh on these sites. And so I said maybe let's imagine this is 75% residential with 25% commercial. Um so again the idea here is to try to capture there's a number of variables
that are at play. So how do we illustrate that sort of range of options just to spark some conversation and even for us as we go through the exercise of looking at the zoning code and and trying to test these various limits you know if we're doing the same thing on all three sites we might not see some of
the challenges that come out by testing ourselves by trying to run a variety of scenarios here. So so really that's where we're at. That's what we're hoping to kind of do moving forward. But again, wanted to take an opportunity tonight to talk that through with you all. See if the approach we're taking for these
three um case studies make sense. If there's other things you think we should be thinking about or or or other suggestions about how we're maybe deploying which are more commercial, more residential, etc. tonight would be really great to understand that before we before we jump in and start drawing things up. So, with that, I I welcome, you
know, comments, questions you all might have. And Kathy, please do. If there's anything else I have forgotten or other considerations we've talked about, feel free to throw those out there, too. Thank you, Jeremy. We really appreciate your time this evening. Uh, members of the board, any any comments or questions
at this point. I I' I'd like to compliment the the effort so far, Jeremy. Um just the simple visualization of it helps a lot in terms of um looking at Route 28 as
having these typical kind of parcels uh that we can look at um in in in various different ways. I appreciate the fact that you've uh mixed up the the mix, if you will, um from 33 up to 50.
Um and that uh you're the the idea of being very cognizant of the fact that many of these commercial properties as you know immediately transition into uh uh residential. Um there's there's uh little room for a buffer there. So um
but I appreciate your your efforts so far. From my view, I think you're pretty much on target for what we were expecting at this point. Kathy's nodding her head. I'm not sure if you can see her, but I would welcome any other comments from uh board members.
Madam Chair, I'll just jump in and say the same thing. Uh Jeremy, great great next step that you've taken us. Just this last slide, the visual visualization of what we're looking at really helps me to, you know, understand and is not looking at something specific
on Route 28, but looking at it from a generic standpoint. So, thank you. Certainly, I have a question. Yes, Mr. Mr. Slovak. Um, since BCOD came in 2011, we now have, you know, um, a water park and some of the other properties that
have transition to other uses in BCOD two, we had a hotel convert to um, 55 plus and we had another motel convert to afford, you know, housing. Are you looking at what has changed since because you you brought up the VCOD part
and how it might influence what you're doing, but have you looked at maybe how some of the uses maybe have changed from what maybe the original intentions of VCOD was? I mean, I certainly think town staff have started to alert us to some of those issues. And I think as we, you
know, review the regulations as they're written, we'll be counting on the town staff to help us understand like here are some conditions we weren't even imagining coming up that started to see. Or I think what what's very telling is already what you're seeing in in the couple you've listed is that really the real pressure right now is on
residential, the need for residential less so than for commercial. I think one of the issues that we see come up when we have these conversations is everybody sort of hopes and dreams that these things will somehow maximize all this commercial potential out there, but the market demand right now is really more
so for residential. And so I think we'll hear a lot of that when we have some of those conversations with the local development community and some of the challenges of delivering these kinds of projects. Um so again, I think we we're aware those trends are out there and happening. Um, and I think to the degree we need to address some of those things
maybe in some of the comments we make about the the zoning and the recommendations for that, um, we should we should be thinking about what's actually been happening in the last couple years as as illustrative to those issues. But I think we're also we're trying to slow that trend, I think, a bit, right? That's we're we're we're not
abandoning this mixeduse commercial. No, the whole idea is the opposite. So that's why I'm saying even though those trends point towards obviously housing as a need and and an investor interest, but I mean that's, you know, not not what we're looking to continue. Yeah.
And Kathy highlighted to me early on that, you know, the way the regulations are currently written, you know, the minimum commercial that's required is 15%. You know, you could go 85% residential, 15% commercial, and there's some concern that that might be too low. And so I think one of the things we'll
test out looking at these different things is you know what is the impact of that that's why the one tries to skew a little more heavily on residential with a little bit of commercial but even at 25% if we can show you what that might look like might that give you some comfort that okay as long as it's in the right place you know I think the regulations are clear too that you know
the priority for that is on route 28 that's what makes sense that's what you're really trying to reinforce is that as you know the mixeduse district and really once you get off of that I think there's a lot less pressure for it to unnecessarily force more commercial out there than than at least holding up that edge. Um, so again, I think that's
one of the things we want to we will be talking to you about and and trying to understand is as written or with some modification, do we still make sure we're achieving that goal for you guys, but without going so far as to create conditions that are further, you know, hindering, you know, developers from coming in and and making the changes you
want to see done, too. Right. Right. I do think we did a good thing when we changed the level of density that's allowed. So if you had a purely residential project, it's only eight units per acre, but if you have mixed use, you can get up to 16 units per acre. So that alone in the zoning bylaw is really encouraging people to go mixed
use. We had a much higher and this is like something where Nate might want to look at the zoning bylaw from Horley Whitney because we have made some changes over the years and and modified those things because originally the percentage minimum percentage of commercial was higher and we're like we weren't getting a lot of projects. So we're like, well maybe we can lower that
a little bit to see if we can get some additional projects. Um but having that inc that cookie so to speak of increased density when you have mixed use. I think the whole idea was to promote um mixed use projects. Any other comments, questions from the
board? Again, Jeremy, thank you uh so much for joining us this evening. We look forward to seeing you again in the very near future. Indeed. All right. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Good night now. Thanks, Jeremy. Yep. Thanks. Right. Okay.
Item number three, Madam Chair. No, we're still on two. Oh, no. Oh, we have a Kathy. Apologies, Kathy. Did you write these notes like at midnight? Sorry. No, I did them. You mean this? We're on these are notes from our meeting last night. Oh. Oh. Oh, sorry. Yeah. We had a great meeting with the select board and
and Dearra came as did Susan and Joanne. Um and they they wanted to stop after each key issue and and action items in order to have have a discussion with us. Thank you. Um so that's kind of where you get I think we got the most feedback we've probably gotten early on in a long
time on projects versus you know we kind of come to them with kind of a like a final draft and then you're getting hit with a bunch of different things. So, this was, I think, a really good time to come before them um wi with an update. I think overall they really felt that we were on track. Thank you. Um thanks for
coming. Appreciate it. And that they they really felt that it was a nice holistic approach and obviously as we talked that everything is intertwined. It's not like housing here and economy here. They everyone understands how how tightly everything uh is put together. Um so I just wanted to summarize some of
the things that came out of the meeting. Um, I don't know. I think it's late and maybe we don't want to go through all of them, but I wanted to make sure that you had them and that Jeff Bag from BSC Group had them. Um, so that we can start looking at um, you know, incorporating them into it was a great conversation
and they had some really good suggestions. Um, so I think there's definitely things that we're going to be making changes to in order to incorporate these comments. spent a fair amount of time, just a quick one, on um primarily uh Mark
Forest spent a considerable amount of time and expressed interest in the historic importance of the Armth and uh was pleased that we have um at least one several action items associated with um
projects that will be addressing the um historic importance of Yarmouth. He spent a fair amount of time on that. Um uh and you know, we were uh we were pleased to see that. Um
uh the one the one item that I I I'm not sure what will what to expect, but uh Tracy Post when we were discussing housing um said that um she she has she will have a lot to say about this. I
believe that's what she said. Something like that. Yeah, she did. But I think one of her her main comments had to do with a lot of people don't want to be landlords because there's such strong tenants rights in the state of Massachusetts. So, uh, a lot of people during COVID weren't able to collect rent. It made it more difficult for
people to see this as as well, I can do short-term rental. There's not as much difficulty getting people out or moving forward. You get the money. Uh, you can also use the property at different times of the years yourself because you own it versus renting it out year round. And if you have a great tenant, it can be a great situation, but if you have a bad
tenant, it's a it can be a long and costly process to address that issue. And that's I think was what she was trying to get at with with her comments. She may have more on on housing in general, but that was her main comment. Yeah. So, we may we may hear uh more from from her. The the one thing that um Mark Forest did mention that plays into
our mixeduse conversations is he really thought that the affordable housing trust could be more aggressive in promoting mi, you know, mixed use with with actual cash. So, I I thought that that was great because that's we're looking for incentives. Maybe it's, you know, having some throwing some money at
it with regard to the affordable housing trust having that having that funding. So, the other the other comment that um and it's in your notes, Kathy, but um inland the flooding Yeah. like at at Captain's Village and other places, you
know, after a very bad rainstorm. Yeah. That's that is a little bit of a problem because you know when you do storm water drainage you design it for a certain storm event. You don't design it for the worst storm event that's ever going to be because it would be very very expensive to do so. Um but what he was
saying is with climate change we're finding that we're having these higher frequency storms happening uh u more on the regular um and that causes some at least temporary flooding before the infiltration system has a chance to catch up and the water can go away. um to try and and change a lot of these uh
storm water drainage systems to handle higher storm frequencies is going to be significant money. Um so that something that if that's what we want to do then we need to be start investing more money in our storm water um CIP. Next on our agenda, uh are uh any update
on MATK any meetings that have been held or Kathy maybe you have some I would just say that the Madaks utilization committee itself is meeting tomorrow night at six six o'clock in conference room A and one of the items that we're going to be talking about is a potential survey to kind of get some general
public on some of the ideas that were created from all the different land use teams um and and also maybe get some policy questions about what's important to to people. Is it is it you know you know economic development with regard to direct tax revenue is it indirect all these different types of things and then
also gauging some people's feelings on all the different uh concepts and ideas that came out of the brainstorming and the all the land use teams work right yes any any other uh mataki's updates none okay
uh and we don't have any meeting minutes I'm so far by uh Kathy was busy writing notes from last night. We gave you um committee updates since our last meeting. I have one, but are there others? I just want to make my
usual announcement. There are plenty of boardwalk part planks available for sale. Yamothma us planks. Buy a plank. I I I would like to note to people that um people who have purchased them maybe in the last month or so. I'm not exactly
sure when those are going to get installed. I'd like to see if we couldn't coordinate something um with Robert B. Hour to have them install them. Um but we're kind of we've kind of passed the time where we can incorporate them into the into the boardwalk at the first goound because they're already
done. It's pretty the boardwalk's pretty much done. Um so they'd have to it would be extra work for them to go take that those planks out and and then put the other ones in. So um but I'd like to see if we can't get them to do it. Otherwise, we might have to wait until we own it outright after the completion of the construction and have the DPW uh
install them. But don't let that discourage you. Still go ahead and purchase them. If I get enough of them, we I'm going to try and get them done. And I guarantee you when you see it, you're going to go, "Wow, the site. We did a quick walk last week and um it's
uh pretty nice in my opinion." Good job. Good job, Madam Chair. Yes. Committee updates. Mr. Rubenstein. Uh the Iraq committee met on Monday the 5th and there were a couple couple of updates from that. Um work continues with the
state of Massachusetts with D to you know evaluate Bay Hills. There hasn't been tons more progress but there is progress. That's kind of how that process is going. I think it's fair to say there will be a partnership between the sewer project and Bayerry Hills.
It's just a question of how much and when. So, that continues. Um, the second thing is if anybody's driven down Buck Island Road, you may have noticed that our new facility is there's stuff happening, lots of earth being moved and
other fun things. Um, also exciting things like electrical and ducks and duct banks and sight grading, but it's all going. It's all happening. Um, a couple other updates, um, that kind of involve what's happening this spring and
and this summer that I just wanted to share. Um, the work behind the Pancake Man, there's a big old pump station going in right behind the Pancake Man between the Pancake Man and the CVS. There's a big spot there. Um, that is going to continue throughout the summer. That
particular pump station, as you can imagine, cuz it's a big one. Um, plus it's off property. It's not it's not on a road or in in the road layout. Good news is it's not going to necessarily used to be. Yeah, there you go. It's not going to necessarily prevent it. I think the road closures are done on Long Pond,
which thank goodness. Um but that is going to continue. That's contract two. Contract three uh by Ravoli is that um allegedly Southshore Drive is going to be paved by May 16th and that all the work on 28 and Southshore Drive is supposed to be
either finished or shut down before Memorial Day. However, the some of the side streets off of Southshore Drive and there is a pump station down there as well are going to continue during the summer. Um that is unavoidable. uh contract four uh which
is close to madam chair's house. Um just have to call have to call it what it is. Um the good news is that this the sewer in well I was trying to be vague. the the sewer installation work on 28 um is
done including 28 in Old Maine, but we're still working as Madam Chair knows and any other folks who have tried to drive down there is Station A and North Main Street. That's still all it's closed. It's all happening. It's all happening down there. I can I'm sorry to
say. So the bridge bridge closes closures are over. That's my understanding. Yes. And until of course the actual bridge replacement project begins which is scheduled for after Labor Day. Right. You know just just a point of clarification the bridge is not
closed. No it was it was for a little while to bridge it. Yeah you could from both sides. Okay. Access was restricted I believe. Oh was it access to those who know how to get around. Okay. I can't tell you how many FedEx
and UPS trucks passed in front of my house. Right. And ambulances and school buses. Appropriately so. I didn't have a problem with it. But the bridge is the bridge has been open. Okay. Right. Anyway. Yes. Until it's restricted in
the fall. Oh, yeah. Well, there'll be different heavily restricted. Yeah. Yes. But still open, right? Um but that's a separate project run by a separate organization, our friends from the state. Speaking of our friends from the state, uh we have asked Mass do um we
sorry the contractors have asked them to continue some 28 work for another about another month that's actually similar to last year. We may not remember this but there was work on 28 till about the 20th of June roughly. Um the state had to give a waiver because of the Memorial
Day rule. They may do it again, they may not. We just don't we didn't know by the time of the meeting. um basically until school gets out. Yeah, there might be work on 28, but that will still be before, you know, the majority of our summer friends arrive. Um so there's
that. Um quickly looking ahead to the next two contracts, um there has been no progress on pump station number two, which is by uh the Cranberry Bog, which is contract six. Um we're not yet in any danger of sort of slowing down the entire phase one um
yet. Yes, we'll see. Um, but we're assured there is still lots of dialogue uh from the town administration uh and with the property owner um as it relates to contract six. Contract 5 though is actually in progress and we're actually going to have bids opened in a couple of weeks. Uh looks like sorry to be clear
June 5th. However, just interesting you know we all think well the tariff situation that's not going to affect our sewer project. Well, you might be wrong because believe it or not, some of the uh pumps that we need to buy, well, they come from not the United States. I'll
just put it that way. Um, so we're finding a little bit of we're a little bit intrigued as to how those bids are going to come in now given where we are in the world of tariffs and the pressures that the manufacturers um are under which in turn puts the pressure on
our friendly biders. So, we shall see. I think contract five is contract five is Parker's River to Higgins Croll, right? On 28. Okay. Um, so it's sort of the Yeah. Well, there you go. I already said where it was. Um, so we we won't know
until June 5th, unfortunately. That's after our next meeting, but I'm sure, you know, if we hear lots of loud noises coming from town hall or from the DPW office, then we'll know that the bids were a lot higher than we thought. Um
but let's hope not. Um we've been given no indication that we have any issues with keeping under our 207 million. Last thing we discussed and and this is an ongoing conversation is about phase two and the where and the
when and how it all connects to all the other issues in our town. Um whether it relates to the new proposed project behind the senior center, uh what the muck is mucking about. um the possible new school
building stuff, etc., etc., etc. So, I guess what I'm here to say is uh our chair, Mr. Mitra Mitra Coststice I believe is going to come to the select board pretty soon to start explaining that you know thanks to the creation of the rack as Ken knows what's great about
it is it's got planning it's got conservation it's got finance um a lot of us are coming together because it's such a townwide issue um and we're all sort of saying you know this is what we're working on not to mention the LCP and finance is saying well this is where
we have concerns and conservation is saying well this is where we have concerns and I think we're all realizing that as an advisory committee, as you know, Ken, there's only so much we can do. But at least we're ringing the bell here about phase two because it's to be determined where it's going to be in
relation to the maps that we all looked at five, six years ago and certainly how we're going to pay for it, much less what it's going to cost. So I feel like the chair is taking the responsibility as he's want to do to come to the select board to start saying these are conversations that maybe need to be had
at the select board level as well because who else is flying at 20,000 ft? We do on the rack about sewer but we're also collecting all the different issues that are presenting themselves and and even the ones that we don't know about.
Um so I think that's important to mention. Um, and the very last thing that's disconnected to the meeting but connected to committee updates is um I was asked and and granted an appointment to the um school building committee for
the new for the feasibility study. Um, as a parent of a new DY high school freshman in the fall and also somebody who served on the previous school building committee um um and as someone who cares a lot about the future of the district. It's not so much about the
future of Emmy Small. This will be a conversation, I can assure you, that will be about the entire school district and the future of, let's just say, the many hundreds of thousands of square feet that the school district uses and how is it best to use them. So, I'm looking forward to those conversations.
Um, and I appreciate you giving me the chance to mention it. Thank you. Um, and that's enough. Thank you. Any other staff updates or correspondence, Kath, you want to share with us? Okay. Uh just a reminder on meetings. Uh our next
meeting will be May 21st. Then we have three in June. We 4:18 and 25. Madame Chair, may I fill in a a committee update that I
forgot about? Oh, certainly. Has nothing to do with the boardwalk. Interestingly enough, the design review committee met yesterday and reviewed a project at 55 Route 28 Becker's Package Store uh for a mixeduse project that uh will create two
two-bedroom apartments and redo the uh the liquor store section of the the building and uh we found that favorably yesterday. So, um that'll go to its next stage. That's all. As I'll add that as
an ab butter, I got notification about the gas station project uh down here. The JAR is going forward, I guess. Good. It was it was coastal. It was um You mean a ZBA? Storm. No, storm Kathy. What would I got? Probably the storm water
management permit with the conservation commission that has mixed use in it. I recall. Yeah. So, it all ties back into we were talking. Well, I just meant it ties into what we were talking about earlier. That's one of the cases. is not a mixeduse building because they had that at one point but it's a mixeduse site site. Right. Thank you for the
clarification. Separate uh apartments on the side. Um anything else? Uh may I have a motion to adjurnn? So move second. All in favor?