You still get to zoom. We still get to zoom. Zoom. Zoom. Zoom. Feel like we figured it out. No, they haven't. Do we need to be on both cameras? Recording in progress. Now we're live. Good evening and welcome to the April
30th, 2025 Yarmouth Planning Board meeting. I am Joanne Crowley, chair. Uh the public is always welcome to attend in person or via alternative public access provided on the town of Yarmouth website. Our meetings are generally held on the first and third Mondays of the
month, but additional meetings like tonight um are added when needed. I will uh begin by taking roll call this evening. Susan Bridto here. Deedra Aquin here. Will Rubenstein, hello.
Jim Sabin, present. Peter Slovak. Ken Smith here. Joanne Crowley present. Madam Chair, just a moment of correction. We meet on Wednesdays, not Mondays. I'm sorry. That was a test. Wednesdays. I haven't He wants to make sure we're paying
attention. I haven't written here as Wednesdays. I didn't want to interrupt you, but I was like, I'm not coming back on Monday. So, oh my god. Too many meetings this week. Sorry about that. We meet on Wednesdays, 1 and 3. Um, seeing we have a quorum present, I
will now call the meeting uh to order and ask that we uh join me in the pledge of allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under
God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Another thing we did So, uh, we have one main item on our agenda this evening. Uh, Kathy, uh, our town planner will review the materials
in our packets and some additional information she provided to us today, um, related to the benchmarking work provided by our consultants BSC group. I see that Jeff is here joining us. Um, the mixeduse analysis being conducted by
Union Studios. Kathy and I attended a meeting on Monday. No, Tuesday. Tuesday. I don't know my days of the week anymore. Um, also LCP key issues and action items. We have a draft three that Kathy has prepared for us and our uh a
discussion on our presentation for next week's uh board of uh select board update. So Kathy, I'll turn it over to you. Well, I think um I'm going to probably turn it right over initially to Jeff as you all have um I sent electronically because there was a lot of good links in there as well, but you
have hard copies of the benchmarking, the mixeduse benchmarking that BSC Group helped us with. Uh and so maybe if he could um go over and maybe you can share his screen as well and go over the different benchmarking uh of the various eight of the small, medium, and large
that were identified. I don't know Liam if he needs any permissions to share his screen. I actually just got those permissions. All right, awesome. Great. Uh, good evening everyone. Thanks for having me. Uh, as you know, I'm Jeff Bag. I'm with the uh, BSC group. I'm a senior planner there and I've been
working with you all um on the LCP and this is sort of a sort of an add-on, sort of an added element to the local comprehensive plan. We're excited to be part of that discussion. Um, as Kathy said, I just
before I start getting lost in my screen share and and talk through a couple of these examples that we found, I did want to just touch on the scope. Our scope um is really comprised of three tasks. And I'm not sure if you guys have seen our scope, but our scope um task one is what
we're doing kind of today. It's sort of ben it's benchmarking. So, it's examples um of successful projects. And that's what we were really trying to find projects throughout Massachusetts that um we could find online. So our our project is kind of a detailed desktop
investigation um where projects have gone through permitting and then actually seen or gotten to con construction phase um because we think that that's kind of an important element of success. Uh there are quite a few projects that we kind of
went through and found that you know because we're doing a desktop only they may have been per you know built but the information was not readily available online and we see a lot of projects that get permitted and then for whatever reason don't actually happen and so that
was really important for us to to be looking through. And then um you know we're looking for information that's available in terms of planning board approvals so we can gather written decisions um and then projects that have um plans
whether site plans or building plans available. That's really helpful for us to do this kind of benchmarking exercise. We did find quite a few with renderings which is always great and helpful to to visualize things. Um, but what we're reviewing is photos, site
plans, and um trying to find where it's available financial data or other zoning incentives that made a project happen. And that's a little bit harder to find in some of these, but we did find some information. And then we're we're tasked with providing graphics, sort of
photographs, renderings, and site plans. Um, and a and a summary of the commercial residential breakdown. So where we could find the number of units we're trying to list that square footage of buildings and things like that. Um and then it does include if
it's available or or you know able to be found a discussion of concerns, impediments or challenges. And so in some cases we're able to identify that through our desktop review. And uh the reason why I'm harping on this is because I know you're working on a separate project and maybe Kathy can
explain that and maybe you've seen that. But for for coming up with renderings and more detailed assessments that will be something it sounds like you'll be working with Union Studios and Horsely Witten and so that's great. Um part two of our task which we're not in we we're um we're going to embark on this next is
sort of a review of regulatory constraints and looking at your village centers zoning districts. um and kind of balancing it with um information about projects that you all have seen whether it's you or your ZBA
um get either reviewed or permitted and and try to identify regulatory constraints, infrastructure or financial issues that may have been um impeding some of those projects. And that's part two of our task which we have not started but we we
do have a kind of a base map of the Route 28 corridor and we've been getting a lot of helpful information from Kathy in terms of projects that have been permitted. Um and we're hoping to kind of we had talked about this as part of the LCP. We're hoping to kind of put together a map of Route 28 and show some
of those projects um and and kind of help illustrate how much activity there actually has or will be on Route 28. Um and then part of that regulatory task is looking at 40R. So the Commonwealth has a smart growth overlay district program
and we're going to look at that. And then finally is uh coordination community input. So, we'll be back to kind of talk about that. We'll provide a report, but basically the only long-winded way to say that we're at task one of three. Um, and and I just wanted to articulate that as we get going
here. So, as Kathy said, this should have been transmitted to you. Um, so you know, it's um it's a it's uh eight projects that we're looking at and we're we're trying to find examples that are
small smallish. Um, and there's a couple really important reasons for looking at small mixed use. They are um what a lot of people desire, but they're often difficult to find good examples of, especially new construction
um medium scale. So these are, you know, ranging, you know, around 20 20 units or so with some version of commercial retail space. And then we found two that two large scale examples that we think are um important to talk about um but
they're not very large. So we did not go to the scale of of benchmarking something like MASHP Commons. I know that came up as an example, but in looking at the size and scale of something like MASHP, it's, you know, it's a it's 140 acres and it was
developed over decades. And so we didn't do that assessment because we wanted to try to find things that were more recent and more relevant, I think, to the discussions, kind of looking at market conditions, especially things that survived COVID.
Um, so as I go through this, I I will I'm happy to answer your questions as I go, but I think if I can get through most of it, it might help. It kind of each one builds upon the next. But if I'm make a mistake or if there's a really important question you want to
interrupt me, please feel free. So, um I don't know if all of you know that I was a municipal planning director uh in East Hampton for six years prior
to my starting BSC group. So, I did look at two projects in East Hampton. Um, the reason being is that I was able to work with these developers through a couple of these projects and I feel like it was informative um, and helpful to have kind
of that that hands-on knowledge to explain. But this is a property in downtown East Hampton. Um, the reason why I looked at this one specifically is because it the picture along the top show that it was a sort of an abandoned building and it had been like that for
for about 10 years. and it was really sandwiched between two existing properties. Um, and what we see a lot of and in our work and not only in Eastampton and in elsewhere and in Yarmouth is this this idea of infill development. Um, this property is tiny.
So, it's it's one of those 5 6,000 foot lots. Um, you know, and there's a lot of history with with carving up these small properties. So, we wanted to showcase this one because it's a small lot. It's a it's a small building footprint as
well. Um two 2,000 square feet is the footprint. Most of my numbers are based on footprint. Um but it it was proposed as a twostory mixeduse building. Um the first floor um has this option for two
retail spaces. But in the permitting process, it also allowed flexibility that in the case that they had one commercial tenant that wanted that 2,000 square foot area, it could be one space or two. So, they built in the flexibility and then it's two
two-bedroom apartments above um a small number of parking spaces. Um, you can see the site plan on the left and and what I did throughout this, as Kathy said, is I put links in to the information so you can get higher resolution photos and you can get the
full plan sets, but the, you know, four parking spaces for two apartments is is is pretty great to actually see happen, although there are eight offsite lease spaces. And then the picture is lit literally from the other day. So, this
is a project that was permitted in 2021, but started construction last year and it's being put up as we speak. Um, the noteworthy thing is that it is in the in the 40R district in Eastampton, but it was not it didn't utilize that opportunity. It it uh just went through
standard zoning did require some variances. So again, kind of in this small realm. Um this is a property in Westwood and a lot of this is you know a lot of the methodology is with desktop is I was
really finding newspaper articles that were available online that talked about mixed use projects and then finding the materials online. In this case, I did have to communicate with their planning department to to get the updated information, but the building um along
the top, excuse me, is uh nothing special, the onestory wonder. Um but it does represent what a lot of communities see as an existing building. And what was interesting about this is the original
proposal um sought to build a second story up above this uh existing building. And um what was uncovered through the permitting history and the decision and things like that is that they got permitted and approved. And then as they went into further due diligence, they
actually found that the building was not structurally sound enough to support the second story. And they went back for modification of the approval and the design plans. And what I was what I was told is that the elevations in the the
the lower left there pretty much stayed the same, but they were allowed to actually go in and demolish the building and reconstruct it new with existing setbacks. Um, but this is also sort of this is a little bit larger property. It's 13,000 ft, but the building size
was was important to look at. So finding these smallish buildings that are, you know, this one's 3,200 ft as a footprint. And in this one, the the second story supports five one-bedroom apartments. This case, it happens to be office space that the first use is
slated for. Um, but it was really important to find this example um, initially where they were building on top. That's a common theme that we see is people want to reuse the building. Um and then the decision has some details and the building plans have kind of that
arrangement of the office space and then the site plan shows that they're looking at 18 parking spaces and they kind of split it on both sides of the building. So this was a good example I think for for small mixed use and kind of redeveloping an existing parcel.
Um, and then this one, I think, um, someone chimed in. I I think it was Peter maybe, and I I had a route 28A for some reason, but this is a in Haritchport. And so, this was a good Cape Cod example that we're able to find. And again, the reason why I found
it is because the pro the the project is under construction. And um and so we're looking back at these to show show that they achieved construction because that means that they got all the financing they need, but it also permitted in 2022. Um this
one, you know, really struck a struck me as a really great example for you guys to look at and maybe, you know, have Union Studios look at, but basically it's on 28. um it looked to u fill a vacant parcel
and so this is all new construction. Um property size is just about 30,000 ft² so it's a little bit larger um and the building footprint size is you know 60 6500 ft². Similarly this is this is only five units um up above they're um
onebedroom units. they're they're larger, but what is great about this one is it has um sort of a a larger restaurant kind of positioned within the building. So, of the 6,500 square ft,
3,000 of that is is pegged for a restaurant. Um they had talked about like a cafe, a smaller restaurant that 850 ft and then two retail spaces. And so this is this is a great example. Uh the architecture looks good. Um, I was
trying to find renderings of it, but I I wasn't I wasn't successful in getting good renderings for this one, but I I think that they exist because some of the realtor sites are showing it. Um, I did update this slightly from the version that you guys might have sent. I'm working off this one. It would be
version three. I did look back and the property, you know, the project has 38 parking spaces and and quite a few of them are offsite. And so I did I did amend this site plan to show that the developer got approval for um you know
that parking lot. And if you can see the site plan on the right side on the left side of that there's a building separate building and then a separate parking area. So I mean we're um able to secure you know additional parking offsite. Um but I think it's important because it
fits in with kind of their village center overlay district. And again, the building plans and site plans are linked here. So, switching to medium scale. Um, I was not going to include this one initially because it's another East Hampton example, but I decided to
include it because this was one of the only ones I could find that actually had secured uh an approval under the Smart Growth Overlay District requirements. So, Eastampton has had it for quite a while. This was the first building built under that zoning. They approved it in
2009 and this was the first building that got built under the 40R regulations. Um you can see it was permitted in 2022 um constructed in 2024. It's fully occupied except for one of the commercial spaces has been vacant. There's it's split up into two
commercial spaces. Um but this was a dilapidated gas station. the service station had gone out of business and then there on the picture on the on the bottom there was a was a liquor store and so in this in this example the developer um worked really diligently to
work through the process with it was it was DHC at that time now it's you know executive office of housing livable communities to get the affordable housing restrictions and that was something that we're noting as a as a challenge this developer was was pretty
small owned a lot of properties but hadn't really developed too much and definitely identified that the additional cost to to get all the legal paperwork in in place and navigate the approvals um was challenging. But the
benefit for the city of East Hampton in this case was that there were there's 18 market rate units and five permanently affordable units sort of right in the right in the downtown area. And um there is a commercial tenant in
the first floor actually just driving by. I I live in East Hampton still. Um the additional tenant space is going to be filled with a tattoo parlor and the tattoo parlor is actually moving from another location in town into this new space. So I think that one of the things that we are hearing about mixed use is
it can be challenging to fill those commercial spaces. But I think with patience and kind of perseverance um it can be done. um 34 parking spaces on site. And I think what's important about this one is it's a good example of a
project that could be positioned on the corner of a street. And I know, you know, through the LCP, there's a couple areas along 28 that have that characteristic where it's an intersection. And so looking at something like this to provide street frontage on two streets um was really
important to look at. And it's um maybe not architecture for everybody. Um it may not fit in Yarmouth, but in East Hampton it fits. Um there was a lot of uh other brick buildings nearby um two and threetory buildings, so it's pretty
compatible. And it did say here, um the city did get an incentive payment for this project. Um, for some of you as as our next phase of the project, we'll talk about 40R more in more detail, but if you were to create a 40R district,
there is an initial um payment that goes to the town. Um, and it's usually pretty large, pretty large sum of money, you know, 300 $400,000 is an initial payment. And then every time um a building permit is issued for new housing units within that area, um the
town is eligible for for an incentive payment. It's it's $3,000 per unit. Uh so as things get start to get developed under 40R, there is that financiality. So moving to uh the town of Bedford. Um this one was one that BSC
group had worked on um in terms of doing some of the civil work. Um, but this is um it's harder to see I know in the in the in the slides, but the location the context map here um shows the parcel in red and it was really just used as a bus
depot and it was at a prime intersection u where there had been some other activity and so this was a key parcel that the town was really looking to have redeveloped and then I think they were lucky to get a project that had this kind of three-story mixeduse building
And then they incorporated a separate building that h what was was intended to be a retail I mean excuse me a restaurant space. And so there this one has some underground parking attached to it in the back. So it's a little bit more elaborate in terms of the way that
they they approached it. U but again the architecture is is something where it's not just a box. Um and it has some elements that worked well. Um it was permitted with a special permit. uh but it was in their mixeduse overlay
district. So from what we could read in the decision, it was meeting the purpose that they had set out to to establish in a mixeduse district. Um the the main building, the larger one is 9,500 square ft in footprint. So just under 10,000 ft
footprint and three stories. And you know, I think it's important to start to see some of the characteristics. So at that size 9 10,000 square feet there they put they have 18 units um in two floors and then the commercial space um
you know is is a fraction of that. So this building in terms of mixed use of a 9500 square foot building the first floor mixed use is 1,700 square ft. The remainder of that is that is that
parking and other other areas. And so again, the trend that we're starting to see is some of these mixeduse buildings grow in size um to accommodate the number of dwelling units and seem seem to start to shrink the amount of
commercial space that's available. And I'm hopeful that through your work with Union Studios and our second leg of our our second task that we start to drill down on on what might be causing that to happen. Um but it is a trend that we do see a little bit of
Um, I think that does it for this one. It's a larger site. It's about 38,000 square feet. Um, great. So, two more, but this one or three more. This one um is in Nantucket and so I think
getting a Cape Islands kind of um example is really helpful uh for our discussions. it. You know, I think architecture architecturally this one is appealing, but I think that is sort of in the eye of the beholder. Um, but the
renderings looked good. It's of a size and scale that that looks appropriate, and that was something that we were really fond of kind of trying to find these projects that that would would fit in the Armoth without being too oversized. Um, they're calling it new
downtown. It it's there's a lot of information available about this one except for the the permit. the permit drawings and the permit approval are not online. Um I I did email with the their planning department and I have PDFs of the information, but for the purposes of kind of getting this information to you
guys tonight. I couldn't I couldn't put put the links in here and I'm I'm hopeful that by the end of our project, we'll be able to get get those uploaded somewhere onto a website and linked. But um the the story with this one is intriguing because they have a a
historic district commission and it's and it and it seems like what happened was the planning board approved or started to review a project and then it went to that other commission and they they wanted this one building to be broken up into two. and sounds pretty straightforward, but I think you
probably know, but I think for a developer coming in with a design plan for one building um and then having to change it into two and pull them apart and revise all the plans and all the architecturals and all the site plans, you know, that can be significant. Um but by doing that, they were able to
secure all the approvals. And this one started construction also recently. The picture at the top um is of an existing restaurant that it sounded like from the discussions that they had an agreement to relocate that restaurant into the new
building. Um but that demolition started I think within the past two weeks. And so this is a sort of a live project and again these are really important because it means that the developer was able to secure all the financing for for the project and that that was really critical for us to be looking at. Um, so
this the details, you know, it's one one and a half acres, so we're getting a little bit larger in terms of the acreage. Um, the building size, that main building, um, just just under 12,000 ft². Um, the second building, uh, 5,500 ft². And I think they were able to
make the site plan work. You know, most of most, if not all the parking is behind the building, and it really creates that street frontage, which which everyone's looking for with a mixeduse building has pushed the building up to the street. Um, this is about 3600 ft² of commercial space. So, um, you know, I think we're
looking at the comparable numbers. If you're at 16,000 ft of building, they're down to about 3,500 ft² of commercial. And so, there's that ratio that we're starting to see. 85 parking spaces. Um, also in a mixeduse overlay district. Um,
this one's exciting because it's actually happening. Um Jeeoff, if you I I can I this this entire project, this is three stories, so they're roughly 40,000 square feet gross building area. Sure. Yes. That's a great way to put it. If you're looking at gross gross building
area, yeah, and their commercial space, that entire building on the right side is commercial. There's an eight lane bowling alley on the right side. So you're me and So the commercial space is going to be probably closer to 15,000 square feet. Okay, that's good to know. And I'll look at that and refine these
numbers. Um, it sounds like you're familiar with it. I think that's great. Um, I'll sharpen my pencil on that one. But it is good. It's coastal town with a lot of the same, you know, unique characteristics that you guys
have. Great. So, now there's two more two more larger scale ones. Um, this is Islington Center um in Westwood. Um, this project, you know, has 3.5 acres in total. It's a couple parcels. It's a
couple different properties. You know, they're they're they're dispersed across the street. But I think what was really important to highlight with this one is that this was pretty good example of a public private partnership. In this case, the the town owned four properties
and one of the adjacent property owners owned four other properties. And so this was a very long sort of RFP um process that the town engaged you know engaged in to secure a developer
then to work through the design plans that benefited the developer and benefited the town. Um this one has an anchor institution. So, you know, negotiating with um you know, a corporate a corporation like CVS um
takes that due diligence and that time and that patience. But this this does factor in a CVS that was temporarily off temporarily offline and then relocated into um a new building. the the image on the upper right was a church and so they
were able to preserve sort of that facade of the church the steeple and the and the pillars in the front and then add and renovate off to the side in the back of that um you know this was seemingly very complicated and a very
long process to the the town's RFP in the page um that's embedded here in the link has a great resource kind of a catalog of the steps that were taken. And I think whether or not this is totally applicable to Route 28, it does
share some potential resemblances to to the Madakis um property where um the disposition process um occurred, you know, ahead of the town meeting votes and then there was a long process to go through this land land development agreement with the developer to actually
get this outcome. uh but it's 18 units and in this case they utilized um off-site affordable housing units to meet their their requirements, their inclusionary zoning requirements. And so that's something that I I I honestly don't know if that's something that's
available in Yarmouth, but I think providing the units off-site was was beneficial in this case. It allowed the developer to actually provide them u rather than trying to avoid that. Lots of parking u special permit and this one was was quite a few years in the making.
So looking at, you know, an RFP process that started in 201 a planning and RFP that started in 2015. Um, a permit was issued in 2018. Um, and then the project was completed in 2023. And so,
um, the last one is in Ammerst. Um, I know that Yarmouth's not a college town, but this one I thought was important to highlight. It's um a five a little over 5 acres of sort of lease space. It sits within a larger parcel, but 5 acres was
sort of a sweet spot that I continued to find that there were a couple projects that fit within 5 acres. It was m it's much harder to find projects that fit, you know, between five and 10 acres. Um, it's something that we're going to touch on in our regulatory review, but I think
the village center zoning that the town has, you know, really took a took a liberal view of people's properties and really amassed large parcels or large many small parcels into one large
parcel. And we're seeing that as a potential constraint. Um, you know, it's a it's very difficult for a developer to amass multiple individual parcels. um especially beyond kind of two or three um but I won't belver that that kind of comes in our next phase but here um you
know this is a a real mixed use sort of village feel um in the rendering up on the top BSC group actually was involved in this project as well this was quite a few years ago but the rendering along the top shows in the red the red barn it
was a Atkins uh food um store that got developed first and then a lot of the site planning park looked to be compatible with that as a as an amenity. And these are kind of two pretty large buildings. Uh building A and building B
um are shown again footprint, but you know, we're talking 28,000 square ft and 26,000 ft of footprint. Um but if you're looking um again at the sort of the top um image the top rendering you can see
the the commercial retail spaces are in in orange awnings and then if you look at the image on the bottom left that's actual it's an actual photograph of this place developed it's the the right side of the building spaces along Kohl's road and actually creates a street frontage
that turns into the property um and um they've been very successful in getting tenants. And I think what we would say is that it's been a challenge for the for the owner developer to get the tenants, but they've been persistent and they're they're they're occupied with a
mix of uses on some art galleries and some retail and it is existing and vibrant and and occupied. And so the number of units is 130. So we're up at that we're up at that larger number of units. Um 104 market rate. 26 affordable
and I think that's my other note here is that this was a comprehensive permit of 40B um friendly 40B um and I know that you know talking to the town of Ammerce they they did find that it's a little challenging for 40B to incorporate um
residential and commercial that sort of split of uses in a 40B is is tricky challenging they worked with um Beacon communities to develop this parcel and then this is another good example of um how the now utilize the project to get Mass Works grant. And then obviously it
being a 40B, they were eligible for affordable housing tax credits. And then the town did set up a a tax increment financing program for this to to really kind of push it over the edge and finalize the the financial package. But
this is an example that I think is great because it it exists and has been really successful. What you can't see um if you're looking at the actual image in the bottom left is to the right across the street is a is a smaller mixeduse building that was built um previous to
this. And so both sides of Kohl's Road has has this mixeduse building feel um and then they were able to kind of create that campus the campus feel um within the site. Um, so I think with that I'm going to stop um and um answer
questions if you if you all have any. But I think that kind of is our look at kind of benchmarking to kind of set the stage. Um, we're hopeful that our work informs the planning board and and uh Union Studios and Horses Whitman. But I think you have another you have another
step with with them to articulate um certain things and maybe I'll let Kathy speak to their to their scope. But we're we were kind of tasked with kind of coming up with these examples and I'll stop. Thanks. I have more to talk about later, but
maybe if you guys have want to talk. Any questions? Uh I just had one. It's more of a practical question. How did the offsite parking work? How did that all come together? How did you identify the sites? Was it part of the plan?
Um, several of these had off-site parking. They they met the requirement by having some on-site. How does that off-site parking work? Um, does the developer identify the parking or how does that Yeah, in this in the the case
um it was the Nantucket example. Let's see which one was it. I think there were [Music] two. Yes. Thanks. We have a public parking area across the street. So, I think they may be able to consider some of that. Yeah. Like um on the on the
Howard there's 38 onsite but 18 offsite. Yeah. I'll double check. Um I what I what I'm assuming happened is either the developer owned that parcel or or acquired it. Okay. And then negotiated, you know, the agreements. But I can I
can look at that a little bit more carefully and make sure that it's clear how they did that. But it was I think that one in that case that was the developer. Okay. Um whoever spoke said another one has public parking and I agree with that. There there there are a couple examples where there's a little bit of on street parking but other than
that I think that would be a developer negotiated um piece. Um but I I will dive back into that one along with um checking the square footage of the of that of the Nantucket project. Okay. Thank you Susan. I'd assume it would be similar to the the negotiations that
they did to put the gas station across from Stop and Shop on Station Avenue. They had to purchase a separate piece of property for mitigation. So, I'm assuming that might be the the avenue for, you know, for mitigation. I need 18 parking spots. Well, all right. Well,
buy that piece of property over there. Will that make you happy? Probably work something like that, Madam Chair. Yes. I just Yeah, Jeff, just a couple questions. Um, this is Ken Smith. Um, the only example just so I get it straight that was a public private
partnership was the Westwood project. Is that correct? Um, I definitely just described it that way, but I do think that that project in Ammerst would represent a public private partnership. They I I and again in full
disclosure, prior to all of my work in East Hampton and elsewhere, I worked in Ammerst. I wasn't there for the permitting of that project. Okay. But the relationship to go through that process of a of a friendly 40B and then to secure the mass works and then to get
the the tax increment financing. I would describe that as a public primary. That's where I was going with my questioning. So, uh, and I guess just one followup or all you have eight project examples and they're great examples. Are all of them on town surge? Do you know or you know where that stands within these projects? No, that's
a great question. um that I did not specifically look for that. Okay. Um I think that's part of a desktop review. I think I should be able to find that pretty quickly and I do think that that would be relevant. I think that's um
something that we were definitely going to look at in terms of the the regulatory constraints our task two. Um we were going to look at how that you know that how that might be impacting the projects in Route 28. So, I'm happy to go back and take a look and kind of make a note um where I can find the
information, but I I'm not sure about the Haritchport one. I'm not sure if they would have town sewer. I think in Nantucket's another great question. I'm not sure how that how those municipalities are set up. Nucket the business district is fully sewed. So, I I can't I can't answer for Haritch
though. Um but I I think it's relevant in the size and scope of some of the lots that we're talking about on Route 28. So yeah, I think that's a great question. I know that that was one of the things that I was going to discuss with the board in our next task is looking at um
Great Island Plaza. You know, it's one of the projects that we're we're looking at, you know, the regulatory part of that and wondering if if maybe one of the reasons they are waiting is to wait for the sewer and maybe you all know that, but it it seemed like something that could have potentially been a factor there. Sure. Great job in your
research, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Peter, did I think I think these examples are great, but did the selection consider or will it consider maybe the demographics and economics of an area and how the demographic not the
demog the the economics of certain area the property values of certain areas are going to support some of your examples whereas maybe they're not so supportable in Yarmouth. Yeah, that's a great question. I I mean the Nucket the Nantucket one he the land
probably cost him around 101 million just for the land, right? So yeah. Um the quick and honest answer is no. We didn't we did not do that as part of our benchmarking analysis. Um, I think maybe asking Kathy, I think a quick discussion
about the scope for for Union Union Studios and what they're going to look at might be relevant because I think we I I actually because our scope is pretty narrow and I I had to keep myself on track to stay focused on kind of this desktop review of kind of the approvals
and site plans and not so much that the demographic evaluation. And I I don't know, maybe I would defer to Kathy, but I don't know if she would want to answer that or not. But yeah, I thanks Jeff. I think what BSC Group is trying to do is come up with some some examples of things that look or kind of feel or are
the size that might fit in the town of Yarmouth. And one of the things that Union Studios is going to be doing is working with the town um to look at financial feasibility assessment. So, I think we're going to be meeting with the um the Cape Cod Chamber and kind of meet with some of they have a develop
development group that meets I think um every month and we're going to see if we can't get get in touch with them and have some questions and ask them because we're that's the whole thing about what's the viability. I mean, I think Jeff did identify some really good issues. You know, it's hard to fill in the commercial space. There might be certain things with when you're
financing it. Maybe some of the the banks are saying, "Well, we don't know how commercial and retail is doing here in Yarmas." So, we want you to be able to make the numbers work just on the residential and not take into consideration the commercial, which then makes the numbers much more difficult to work through. So, we're going to try and identify that in the next in the next
phase with with Union Studios in this um feasibility assessment. Do you know if if any of the projects sold after being permitted? Were they de and so they were developed by somebody other than the the initial group that permitted the
project. That's also a good question. I I didn't look at that. You know, I'm I'm I'm thumbming through my slides and I I can double check that. I think based on the research that I have, I think I
would say I think the answer is no. Um but I want to double check that. But I think there's a couple of them that I'm not 100% sure, but the East Hampton ones I I've understood that the owner has been the developer and remains the owner. Um, the Haritchport one, I would I would want to do a little bit of
diving a little bit more. I think I can find that information in terms of the permitting path, but I know Ammeris is the same. The Eisenton Center stayed the same developer. They they're a developer and landlord. And I think that's something that Kathy was kind of just touching on. some of this stuff is
whether they're developers um or and and do they have the experience and expertise to then become landlords not just for residential but also the commercial component. And so that's something I think we're going to try to touch on as we keep going forward and hopefully combine between us and Union Studios. I think that's a I think that's
an issue to to be cognizant of is that some developers are you know very familiar with developing housing and I think adding the commercial tenant mix in there and then and the way the financing can be different for that. I think the developers have to be
knowledgeable about that. Um and then there's the whole bank issue and whether banks how I think banks treat them slightly different as well. So long-winded way to say I'll go back and double check if I can find that information but I think it's a good question. There was another project I was scoping in Dennisport
um on um on Main Street. It's a nice looking project and I'm happy to share. I looked at about 40 projects um and I kind of continue to window them down to these eight that were kind of the most representative and most uh informative. There is a price. It's 6
626 uh Main Street in Dennisport. And it does seem like it was um permitted and then sold. And my understanding is that it's not it wasn't clear to me 100% whether construction has started, but that was 24 units and about 700 square
ft of retail. Um but it was something I did scope. I just didn't continue to pursue it because I couldn't find all the available information. Yeah, Jeff, I do have knowledge of the uh rail railroad a project in Bedford. I actually have family members that were involved in it and it was permanent and
then the project was sold off. Okay, great. I think one of the things that we keep talking about and I think think when we generally think of mixed use, we think of commercial on the first floor and top of shop, but that doesn't mean that the site can't be mixed use. I think that was what they were originally looking at at the Cavalier when they had
a project that included commercial and also included the Bass River Motel where they had a bunch of residential in separate buildings and the commercial in another building and then they were going to condominiumize it so that they could have different developers and different financing packages for the two. So, I think one of the things that we talked with Union Studios about was
maybe in some of their renderings, maybe it's not just a mixeduse building, but maybe looking at some examples of of renderings related to mixeduse sites and it might be in separate buildings because once you start having uh mixed use, you're talking sprinkler systems and those types of things that add costs
to projects and maybe keeping them in separate buildings might be harder. But a lot of times the commercial, they're trying to keep that somewhat smaller. So, you don't want to have this small tiny little building in the front and a large big residential in the back. So, but something to think about. It may not necessarily be top of shop. Madam Chair,
Madam Chair, can I ask a quick question? Yes, Mr. I kept thinking as Jeff, thank you for all this research. I kept thinking as we looked at all these projects, I kept thinking about the Cape Cod Commission of it all. And so what I'm trying to remember is is the 10,000
square foot trigger residential? Is it commercial? Is it combined? And someone quickly clarify that. And then I have a follow-up question. If if it's residential alone, it's more than 29 units. So if you had 30 units and we're not located in our growth incentive
zone, which is the the 35 motel, but if it's mixed use, it's 20,000 square foot gross. You do get some credit for different things that are on the site already. So, but I think that that might be worth having more conversations with the commission with regard to that so that we can get an a clearer understanding because I think a lot of
these projects are actually smaller and are things that would not trigger the commission examples and those might be infill. Those might be projects that you can um get the lot size together or or there might be some lots of that particular size to make to make it possible. Like I do know that when we
originally put in the BCOD together, we were hoping that there would be some combination and combining of lots to have larger developments and we really haven't seen too much of that at all. Okay. Well, I just feel like given that we saw lots of projects that are off Cape, I do feel like we have to
acknowledge that if it's going to be on Cape, we have to account for the Cape Cod Commission, which unless I'm misunderstood is pretty unique in the Commonwealth. Um, right. There aren't enough. Jeff, you can tell me. Are there other regional entities of its kind that
like to do the kind of let's just say good work that the Cape Cod Commission does? No. Correct. No, I don't think there's there's not another area that has that. I just think if we're going through this whole process, we need to keep in mind if we're showing, you know, it might even be and again, I'm not
trying to make more work for anybody. It's the last thing I'm trying to do. But we have to acknowledge that if it's a great project in East Hampton, it's going to have this much more time, money, cost, and hoops to jump through if it's in Yarmouth. Like we can't we have to
remember what the apples are to make sure that we're comparing it to apples. So I don't want to beat the Cape Cod Commission horse to dead, but we can't ignore it. So I hope we have a way of acknowledging it or including it as or as we keep thinking about this process going forward. Thank you. other regulatory requirements. That's a very
good point, Will. Besides the commission, I mean, you have MEPA. I mean, I do know that the other project I was talking about there where they were going to at the Cavalier, I think that hit an automatic environmental impact report and they decided they didn't want to go through that even though they might have been able to get away with not having to go through the commission
because that is one of the GI properties as well as the Bass River Motel. Um, that was another trigger, another regulatory trigger in a process that can be very timeconuming and that I think ended up being part of the reason they didn't move forward. But Kathy, I don't know if this is possible, but it's those kinds of conversations when you're
talking about public private partnerships. It's like does the town want to lose a project because a company doesn't want to go through MEPA, right? So, like the question is, is there a conversation to be had? um or does the town want to lose a project because it the developer doesn't want to go through
the Cape Cod Commission. So, I don't know. I'm I know I'm a little bit daylighting here a little, but I still feel like the whole issue of regulatory bodies that are unique to the Cape need to be accounted for in our work. Thank you. We are hoping to identify all the constraints to mixuse and that's
certainly one of them. Correct. Yeah, that's definitely we'll get a knowledge in our next phase. We had to we we were trying to be adaptive to to how the town wanted to structure this. put the benchmarking first. I think initially we had the regulatory constraints lined up first, but we kind of switched them around a little bit to
to kind of get this going first, but I think that's a good question. Anyone else? Um, Madam Chair. Yeah, Mr. S. So, uh, my colleague Will spoke words that were in my head before I was going to speak and he did. Um, I
think we're burying the lead with all this. All great information, but what I keep hearing is the biggest detriment to any development is the regulatory issues. And until we can figure out how to make the regulatory
issues more palatable to developers, it doesn't matter what we do. I mean, everything I've heard here is like permitted here and then five years later they're actually putting a shovel to the ground. Well, that five years cost money and every time they have to, you know, I
feel bad for the guys in in Nucket, they had to red, you know, go back, basically go back to the drawing board and start all over again. I've had it happen to me on a project as simple as, you know, landscaping my yard. And, you know, those guys that get the pencils on the paper charge for that stuff, too. So
that regulatory stuff is is what's really going to make it difficult to create any of these types of things until we can find ways to to simplify it and provide incentives. I saw one place there's $65,000 uh tax incentives. So unless we can find ways to make it
palatable for them to get through that regulatory, this is just all fun and games because nobody's going to be able to do it if it takes them three to five years just to get through the regulations. I do know that the Cape Cut Commission is doing their regional policy plan update and one of the things that they are looking at um is whether
they can adjust some of their thresholds. I found I've always thought that the way the commission is work is you're getting certain type you're actually getting the types of developments that you don't want. So if you have three lots and you can put a 9,900 foot build commercial building here, same thing here, same thing here.
How about combining those and being able to do a 28,000 square foot building that looks so much better, has the parking in the back, has access management, all the types of things that we like to see, but literally would have the same amount of impacts as these other individual projects that did not trigger a DRRI.
So, there needs to be some thought and conversations u with the commission on that. And I'll certainly I have a meeting with them next week to talk about activity centers um and and I'll certainly bring that up at that time. I mean, evidence. Madam Chair, can I follow up on what Mr. Sabin just
mentioned? Certainly, please. Jim, isn't the other thing we could do um some of the work that we may need to do as a planning board looking at our own regulations? Yeah. You know, over the next year to two, which is one of our goals or one of our, you know, so, you know, for for you and I and a planning board to wait for the Cape Cod
Commission to make changes to their thresholds, well, you know, I'll just leave that there. Um, but we can certainly do some things perhaps in our own body with our own deliberations and our own research and our own hearings to try to make it more palatable from the town of the Armouth perspective. I would
I I would agree entirely. I think it's also something that the economic development committee can start looking at is, you know, tax incentives and financial incentives to to encourage development. I keep looking at I think we all keep looking at uh Great Island and say, well, what do
we got to do to get this thing done? and it just sits there and sits there and maybe the answer is we've got to provide them with some incentives either at this board or the ZBA or the town as a whole but you know that seems to be the biggest eyesore in town and I don't I
don't have personal knowledge of anything getting done to try to move anything forward on it well and we're a year away from anything happening at Madakis right so wouldn't it be nice if by a year from now town meeting there were some changes in place so that
whatever ever the town decides to do with Madakis, the next step won't be a step back when they start encountering the town of Yarmouth zoning regulations. Thank you. Anyone else? Could I ask a question? Could I ask a question, too? Because I
think I apologize. I'm probably not supposed to ask you guys questions, but the the time the timeline for the sewer um improvements to actually be um ready on Route 28, is there is there an an I
should know this, but is there an estimated time frame for you know that sewer to be available on Route 28? Because I think that's similar to what what will just said about Manakis. I think that's been our understanding of kind of working through the LCP and working through even you guys looking at
Route 28 is that there is a moment in time now to be assessing the situation so that if there are changes that can be made, it's also in time for that sewer improvement project to be ready for people to to plan for that and hook up. So, I think if if if someone knows that
date or time frame, that would be helpful for me to know. I believe it's the I think the plant won't be done till the till 27. That's right. And but nothing is going in the pipe, I would imagine, until early 28. That's Jeff.
That's you're right, Will. The plan is spring of 2028 to have the first stuff going through the pipe. Okay. And Jeff, just so you know, whatever phase two is going to be is going to those discussions are going to start happening as well. Um, I'd say in the next 6
months because that means a whole another funding package to go along with the funding games of the where it's going to go. Yeah, I think that's helpful just you know as whether it's whether it's our regulatory review or your work with Union Studios. I think looking at that a little bit to
understand how would a developer look at that date when would they start putting together plans and you know go for permitting because we all know that permits expire. I I don't know if you guys have been dealing with the, you know, the permit extension act or anything, but to get a project permitted and you have two years and then if
you're if you're not if you're not breaking ground, you you're you're you have to renew it and go through that process. But I think understanding that timeline a little bit for how a developer would begin to assess a property that I I feel like you're generally in the sweet spot right now to be assessing the regulations and then a
developer might be looking ahead. You know, I don't know if they're really looking ahead four years, but um you're getting close to that time frame where people are probably starting to sharpen their pencils on what what options might exist. Great. So, I think Kathy, you I I
provided that information to you. I think um it's ready to go to your next step. I think I can try to go back and and uh update those final details, but I I feel like it's generally complete enough to to pass along if that was their next
step. Yes, I I've already passed it along to to Studios. Um can can I I just wanted to ask a a couple of questions. Um Jeff, there are there are projects that the town of Yarmouth has approved
along 28 uh that are mixed use. Um shovels may not be in the ground yet. uh but they've been approved plans and I is there some way we should be we should we should be benchmarking
um those um I'm thinking of a long time ago great island you take a picture of what it looks like now and what the plan was and what the permitting was you take a look at JMART what it looks like now and what it looks like um proposed to
look like in the future you look at uh Becker's Liquors, which we have now some um initial renderings of what it looks like now and what we hope it might look like in the future. And they're all mixed. And then we have the other one. I'm not going to remember the address on
28. The one with restaurant associates in the bottom with the trucking the Johnny E property. Yeah. Tasty buffet. Yeah. Um also um you know good projects that the town has approved um to go
forward in some way. Um and the the the um the way in which you presented the benchmarking projects for out of town is really great a great summary of what's happening. Um and but they seem to be that these are projects that have moved
forward and are done. Yeah, that's a good question, Joan. I mean, I my understanding of our purpose was to to look outside of Yarmouth for the for examples of projects that were successful. Um,
I don't want to I don't want to muck up the charge. I mean one thing that one thing that we had hoped to do as part of our task two which is the regulatory constraints is look at those properties those projects that were permitted and whether it's quick and cursor cursorary
or or moderately detailed try to look at those projects that got permitted and and find out if there was something that prevented them from actually moving forward. Um, we I I do have a map, you know, of of the 28 corridor that we're hoping to use as the base the base map
for that next step. I'm I'm looking at our scope and it's not specifically listed in our scope right now, but we had imagined like uh using the corridor map and then pulling out like bubbles, you know, call outs for the projects that have been permitted, you know, that you
mentioned kind of that enumeration of those projects and then where it's applicable discuss discuss them briefly. Um, so it's kind of this two-part piece where I think if our project was bundled together, it would create a little bit more cohesive view for you guys. Our our
first task was this outside look, then our second task is this inside look at the regulatory constraints. So, I will do my best to try to incorporate the projects that you you mentioned. Kathy has given us a lot of that information and maybe just, you know, with a map and drawing an arrow to where they are and a
brief description of of of them. Um, I can try to work that in. I think it fits within our task, too. Um, but I apologize if if I misunderstood, but we were we were asked to kind of look outside for the examples that that got to construction. I I think you did do what you were asked to do. And just to
kind of clarify, we've asked both BSC Group and Union Studios to do a lot of work in a very short time period in order to be able to use the community planning grant before it expires on June 30th. So we we're asking we're asking a lot and we had to a little bit bifurcate
the work um because of procurement issues and and all of these different types of things. So we were able to expand the existing contract that that BSC group by a certain amount to give them this work and then we had to go out for a cost quote for the Union Studios work. Um so we're kind of kind of
patching it all together and hopefully at the end we'll kind of get this good good final product. Um, and and I think I think they did do a good job of of identifying the the benchmarking ideas and I really appreciated that they are doing that extra mapping to kind of show where and I know that you had talked
about that Joanne as well because a lot of people don't know what's going on in town and kind of see some of these other projects. I think some of the the people that might be interesting to actually come as part of the panel discussions for the feasibility assessment would be to have the developer of the JMA maybe Beckers and the Tasty Buffet because
they're people who have who came to us with these ideas and how are they making it financially viable and what could have been helped them or what what difficulties have they found in in trying to move forward. Um okay. Um and and the only other question I had and this is um I know the
benchmarking generally is meant to uh be kind of a 10,000 foot flyover um uh of the property and and um um how the site was developed, but all of these projects were right on the
sidewalk. Um and I'm wondering how that might conflict with our basic zoning on setbacks, Kathy. Um and what that what you know using these as examples I don't think we allow them to build on up to the sidewalk. Well in in
the village center overlay district there's a minimum and a maximum setback right and I think um I think it's like 16 to 25 ft. So I or 15 excuse me to 25 ft. Oh that's pretty small. Um so you can so it's not the 50. No no no no
30. Yeah. Yep. So, so that the whole intent was to move things closer in order to create more of a main and the parking in the back. Always in the back side. Yep. Okay. A big mistake we made in this, you know, 80s and 90s was to make our bylaw say all parking must be in the front and it took away the
character of of like you see going through downtown Dennisport or Howardport now where those buildings are out close to the street. It gives you that sense of community and walking, etc. Well, we put all the parking up front. Everybody else said, "No, no, no. Put it out back." So, I think we're
learning that quite honestly, we made a mistake in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. We required it to be in the front. Yeah. That's insane. Well, I You're not the only ones who did that. Really? I I thought that was just because there were no rules, not that we
were requiring them to do it. Whole thought process was to say that, well, see all the cars in front of this building, so there must be a good place to go into. I don't know what the mentality was, but it's easy to pull into because you see the pull in. I don't know, but we did it for years and I've always wondered why. I decided to
we should fix. Okay. So, maybe if if Jeff can still stay on, I just wanted to talk a little bit more. Um I think in some of the benchmarking, I know that one of the one of the units got a little bit larger in size like 30,000 square foot. That's a small scale. Maybe that really goes into
the medium scale now. Um, but small scales were very small, like 6,000 to 15,000 square feet. And then the medium ones were kind of like a half an acre to 1.6 acres. And then the large was like 3.5 to 5.3. What we're trying to have union studios do is we're not picking
any particular site on on Route 28 because we don't want people to think that this is what's happening or get or get people concerned or whatever. We're trying to come up with what it might look like with our existing zoning. So, we're kind of looking at three hypothetical lots. And I guess my question to you guys and we had talked
Joanne and I had talked a little bit about it was um what are what are the three kind of lot sizes that we might be looking at? I mean do we really want to go with something smaller like one and a half acre site, a two and a half acre site and then maybe a three and a half to four acre site and not do anything
with these extra extra large lots um which are very far and few and far between anyway. and then trying to, you know, kind of come up with some different shapes of of the lots because we have a lot of long narrow ones. So maybe that's one of the options. And then some of them um are very short and
stubby and they go they go this way just to kind of give an idea of what might actually be able to be done. So Union Studios is looking for a little bit of guidance on on kind of what what lot size is. Yeah, go ahead. We're looking for like how how we how we view Richard. Doesn't
the real estate industry have a a standard as to what they define as a small lot, a mediumsized lot, and a large lot? There's nothing standard on Route 28. You know, it's it's regardless of 28. It just is a benchmark to work. There's nothing. So they So a small lot
in Yamoth might not be a small lot in Quinzy. Is that what you're saying? because Quincsey probably has zero setbacks and so there's nothing we could use as a sort of a jumping off point to I think you got to look at whatever our setbacks are what the typical setback's going to be
in one of the VCOD zones and look at our I I I think it would be helpful to maybe look at some of the land that we have and and we know some of the owners that own multiple parcels and and possibly say can we use your three parcels as an example. I don't know. We're going to decide that. I just I'm not we're not
going to ask anyone. I think we're just going to we probably will pick lots, but we're going to kind of make them a little more generic um and and make some assumptions on that. Um so looking just just to kind of get an idea is um we did look at different lots that we've hoped
to combine in the past and some lots that we know that are only two owners and maybe that's something that could be worked together. And there was a lot of lots that were um two and a half, three to three and a half acres in size of we weren't getting a lot of we weren't getting any like five or or six acre
lots out of trying to combine reasonably combined lots that we thought might be a possibility. That's why I'm wondering, are we really talking more about like the infilling of here's a blighted property? You know, let's what can we do to try and have a nice mixeduse building that would be be a viable mixeduse
building to to infill here on some of the smaller lots that we have. We have a lot of small we have a lot of oneacre lots, right? I mean, even like the recent project that we saw at 811 Route 28, which was the eight um town houses. I mean, that was like about an acre, but
it was like it really worked well because they had a shared driveway. If you had had to try and put that all on the one one lot um and have a buffer and and then the driveway, it would have been very very difficult. It would it wouldn't work. Um so I think you do need a certain size. So maybe I don't think
we want to be start looking at something as small as you know h a half an acre or anything like that. I think we want to we want to give a reasonable idea of what something might look like. Yeah. And I I think your 1 and 1/2, 2 and 1/2, and 4 and 1/2 is reasonable. Your four and 1/2. Okay. Well,
well, how many of those, if we look, just do a quick count if you can, how many of those lots along Route 28 are under an acre? A lot. Um, then then maybe we want to look at something under an acre as well. Yeah. The bigger
problem is that the the lot shapes, you know, there's so very few square lots. They're all such odd shapes that you could be an acre and a half, but the usable by the time you try to fit setbacks, you're going to Yeah, you're going to fit the same size building that you would on a half half acre or 3/4
acre. It's there's also obviously um a bunch of environmental resources on some areas in the back. So, you may have a larger parcel, but you know, at least a third of it is not developable. Mhm. Um I think we might want to take that into consideration trying to say come up with
lot sizes that might be like the actual the developable portion of the site. And one of the other things I talked to Union Studios is but is that a lot of our properties but right against um a residential neighborhood. So what can you do in your design to help mitigate some of the impacts um from that? You
know, maybe you're going down in sizes and doing more smaller residential as you get closer to the back. um the thing about doing something like a four and a half acre then you're probably doing something that's going to be triggering all these regulatory issues that Will was talking about and that's less likely
to actually happen. So, I think, you know, if if you're looking at um like Great Island Plaza there, I think that was like um 2.7 acres of those three three lots kind of was was that and then if maybe there's
like the Michael Coin property where you had the BCOD project next to that, maybe that's another acre. So, if you combine that, that might be like, okay, here's an example of how we might be able to combine up to 3.7. I don't think we're going to necessarily get all the way up to something as large as a 4.5 unless
some serious combining starts happening. Right. I don't I don't I don't mean to throw a wrench into this because I know size here is what we're kind of looking for, but as Peter said, uh um are there are
there are there common sizes? You know, where all the hotels are that are either existing or going to be torn down? They're all long and narrow. We've got a bunch of long and narrow lots. Um and probably not very many square
ones. But maybe would would it makes make and I know we don't have a lot of time here. Would it make sense to have um some some modeling about lot shape
rather than necessarily size? I think you just described them Joan. They are they're most of the lots on 28 are either long and narrow or don't have any setback at all and they're just long along the roadway. you know, and I don't know how we we can look a little bit
more closely. Oops. If you want to. Whoops. I mean, they're they're very rectangular, you know. You have the post office, you know, and those are those are three separate owners there at the post office.
I don't post office is separate from Great Island, which is also separate from what was the This is one, but the dance school is to give you an idea. Here's a relatively evenshaped lot that's, you know, like it's a hund and
Yeah. So, like two and a half acres in size. Um Oh, I was looking at the parking lot. I'm sorry. Yeah, I don't have my I don't have my right glasses on. And I think obviously the biggest lot on on you know is about 18 acres if you just kind of take
you know I'm sorry this whole area with where sports but that's very distinct and very obvious and that's a mega project. That's what we're referring to like an extra extra large lot which is so rare. that's going to be very unique and I don't think you're going to get a lot of things that are necessarily you
can always use other than you know what ideas you come up with um along the front facade. Um you know the big one of the bigger lots that we had um was the Cavalere which I think was um like 4.5 acres. That was very unusual. And the
cottages across the street. Yeah. But look at if you look at the cottages across the street all of this is wetland resources. So, the actual size that's actually developable is probably, you know, maybe similar in size to the Cavalier, right? Because you have all these wetlands in the back that you're
going to have to stay out of and have the buffers and all of those types of things. Um, you know, even next to the Kia the Kia dealership, the three lots here, I mean, those are that's about three three acres if you combine all those lots. So, even if you're combining lots, you're still not coming up with
things that are super super large. And um I think this is the Moose Lodge. It was like 1.6 acres. Uh again, not a bad shape lot, you know. So I think even though we talk about a lot of odd shapes, I think the odd shapes kind of come in when you're a butdding up against a wetland resource. And that's a
little bit trickier because of the of the buffers. But like all like this is um 811. So, you know, for example, if if you combine those two, that could have been a potential project. If those two had gotten together and had a combined project, that would have been a twoacre lot or almost a twoacre lot. Um, when
you get to like all the way down to um this is what I was talking about with um this is the lot, the Great Island Plaza. These three lots are owned and then she owns this little piece here and this is the the post office here. And then Micah Coin owns these these two
things and he came ahead before with the mixed use VCOD project. Um I don't you know this is a hypothetical. So even if you combine if we said okay let's combine all three of them that's only 3.7 acres. It's you. So we went through this to try and say what kind of sizes could we reasonably be looking at. Um so
I don't know whether we want to get too large because um there's not going to really in practicality I don't know how many of those projects we're actually going to have. We're going to have more of hopefully if we can do it some of the smaller infill
projects. So maybe this is this is the this might be the biggest one you kind of not this site particular but something like that of that general size of like three and a half acres you know on a signalized intersection. How how large just yeah I was going to ask the same thing west okay
you have this is this is the Christmas tree shops and that's 122 I So that old dilapidated hotel that's ready to fall down next to the water park, is that part of their property as well? No, it's a separate parcel. It's a separate parcel, but I think there's
some things that are they may have some ideas for those particular things. And is that use? You already went to ZBA, right? Actually, there's there's three falling down places. Yeah. And that those are all rather those are all rather large lots though. All right. Through there, right? Not not really
because one of the things you can do is you can take a look at We can kind of like Oh, I don't know if I can make this work. You squared it off, so to speak. That's two acres. Two acres. Yeah. So, I mean, this is what we were finding. We're
trying to figure out the the sizes and a lot of them are smaller. Um Whoops. And you know, yeah, like this is the town own parcel. was like about one acre. Kathy, that other lot on the corner across from um the old police station, the chamber
office there, I mean, that's been on the market for a while, different brokers. Did anything ever come to you with The only thing that's ever come to us was um like a uh it was I think a coffee shop with a drive-thru. And because this was residential, you remember this is 17
Berry Avenue and that was the thing that they wanted to change to commercial went down. The idea was if this was commercial, then you might be able to have you need 100 feet just like clearing from all of the drive-thru components to the residential zoning district to give that buffer for they're
clearing the lot on Berv as we cleared they cleared it well I think that's been sold yeah the other issue with that lot was there's no access to exactly there's no curve on BV to get into it there's also the mass DOT project that's happening there and I think that they're
putting in another turn lane here so I think they're going to be taking going to be a taking issue of some of that lot making it even narrower I mean, every time people come, that's one of the things the first things I say to them is, um, we have this project coming and I have some preliminary
rightway plans that I can share with you, but you should get in contact with Mass DOT because I don't know if they've been changing, but some people are taking this amount like Beckers is very small. not a lot at all, but others could be five or six feet, you know, and that may impact and uh especially with
some of those shorter setbacks that we have in the VCOD, you know, if it's 15 foot foot minimum and they're taking 10 feet, you know, yeah, you don't want to have your building right on the edge of the of the shared use pathway, per se, uh because people could be whizzing whizzing by. It's not like a general
sidewalk. It could be people on bikes. Um so so there's a lot of things going on there. What? Take them out. Take them out. So, we were kind of keeping mainly to the VCOD, but even looking at other properties, you know, as you go further
down. Um, oh, one of the other ones. Sorry, let's get all the way to the the other thing that might need to be something we think about as we move forward is, you know, the looking at the South Yarmouth Village again. I'm sorry, I can't quite get there very fast. Um,
but there's that strip mall there. That would be so good if that just disappeared and all the parking was in the back. Yes. And it's a very vibrant retail spot. I mean, it's got it's got a lot of stuff going on in there and it's if you combine them all together, you know, it's about three
acres and you can see, you know, if you move the this is weird because the the state right away there is 80 feet wide. So all their parking in the this whole row of parking is literally in the in the layout, the state layout. Um but you know, yeah, these buildings were in the front. You have a lot of ways you could
easily access parking in the back. It could be quite And there's Townland in the back up at the back of the library. $332,000. You got to put a library there. They told that owners the hardware store hardware store is owned by somebody else that owns the other hardware. So those
types of things all come into play. Um, and God help you if you have a condominiumized something like the C Cape Cod vacation condos took so long for um them to get ownership of that because there was I don't know 30 owners or more and
it was a big legal legal thing. So condominiumization kind of and if you're actually selling out individually it can be very difficult to then get back into common ownership to do anything. Madam Chair, based upon a quick rundown Route 28 visually, it appears to me that
we should probably looking at one, two, and three acres. Up to one, up to two, up to three. You guys okay with that? Yeah, that that works for me. Makes sense. Um the only other question then became
um did we want to look at developments of of different densities. Um right now all of our um VC1, three and four allow um up to 16 units per acre if you have a minimum of
15% commercial. We lowered the amount of commercial because we were having difficulty with getting anybody uh interested in it. I think it when it got lowered that's when Michael Coin came forward with his particular project. Um, but do we want to be looking at 16 units
per acre? Do we want to be looking at different like a 12 unit per acre or do we just or do we want to see what we can maximize on the properties and go with what the zoning the maximum zoning would allow? I think this goes back to again the issue of, you know, the bloodline of
septic sewering because, you know, once you have a a bloodline there, what's the difference if you put 24 units on a on an acre or 16 unit? Just it's, you know, other than the capacity of the plant to handle it. So, you know, maybe the
density instead of 16, maybe might I don't know, maybe it needs to go the other way. So I I guess my make it financially feasible. My question is if we were to look at the density as it exists now are are we uncomfortable with that? I mean
we've approved several projects in the time I've been on the board um where applicants came in with viable projects and were able to accommodate the project with the existing density. I
I don't I don't I don't think I want more density. I I I don't think I do. So, maybe go with what the what's now and see what see what Yeah. See what comes in. And we we're familiar with that. We know what it looks like. Let's start with that and see if it has to be
modified. Yeah. I do think that we do obviously in the VCODS allow for um up to 48 feet and four stories, but then it's the setback at 50 feet. So, as what Peter was saying is by the time you do all the setbacks and some of these weird, you know, right, you're not
you're not able to take advantage of the four, it's only when you get into a larger lot or or a more square lot where you could be able to take advantage advantage of that. Mr. I understand the issue of density, but I'm
also trying to think from the perspective of a potential developer and there needs to be the financial incentive for them to achieve the project to to achieve the goal of completing a project. And if we're telling them, you know, you can only do
16 units, but in reality, we know, and I don't know this, but 24 units is is their break point. Well, how many of these projects are we going to stop from happening because we have a restriction on density that that may keep the
project from being viable? I don't know what that answer is. I don't know what that number is, but it, you know, I keep looking at 68 years of living in this town and and hearing, you know, the difficulties of developing and then you drive down Route 28 and say, well, it must be true
because we haven't experienced the the economic growth that Hyannas has done or look what's going on in Dennisport and Howitch. So, we're doing something wrong in my opinion. I don't know what it is, but these other towns seem to be getting it together to get these things done.
What is it that we're doing differently? And is it a density issue? Is it regulatory issues? I don't know the answer. Yeah, I I don't know either. But when you the the Haritch projects in particular, the two on Main Street, one is one of which which is done. Then
there's the one on in Har Witch Center. Um they're not big. Yeah, they're not big. They're they're beautiful, I think. Um uh and uh I just think that that how how those
developers made it work, I'd like to know because they made it work. That's why they make money. They made it work because their rents are twice as what they're going to get here on Route 28. What they can rent their commercial space for and their apartments in beautiful little Harageport. Haritchport is incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I
I said Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I'm with Kimi, too. if if we do it right. But you're right. They do, as you know, they do a tremendous amount of work before they decide to invest in a I I would I if you go to Howardport in the afternoon, I mean, it's young. It's active. The restaurants he can put two
more restaurants there because there's two more up the street. It's just it's almost like commercial part of commercial street like Promise Town. It's just there's all foot foot traffic and it didn't used to be that way. No, they have created that, right? And all the property values around it just went nuts. skyrocketed. Yeah, it's supports
that. It supports what they pay in rent. I mean, you know, they do, as you know, they do a tremendous amount of work before they decide to go into the community and invest. They just not walking around with a pencil and say, "Let's go into Yamoth." If they think they can make money, they'll make it
work. Even if it's small and it's all driven by profit and they Peter said, they look at the rents, they look what can I get, what's there now. So, a lot of that is out of our hands. A lot of that they come armed with and they know what their breakpoint is. They know what pencils out and what doesn't. And we
just need to provide the environment that can take that plan and maybe with a few modifications make it work for them and they will invest. They will that's an investment. It's a it's an investing in an opportunity to make money. Do we know by chance what the the you know
we're talking about how uh this one 7-Eleven interesting that the name of 7-Eleven food mart it's not a 7-Eleven but the address is 7-Eleven I'm wondering what the site size of that is I mean I didn't have a chance to look at that um and I don't it wasn't one of the
ones that that's in Carage Center it's beautiful it's it's actually very nice it's relatively small again and it's not a huge lot but they own this it's the same developer who owns the liquor store and they they redid all of that building too and I think it looks um pretty good
as well. Um but I think it's interesting Harage is seeming to make it work. So maybe if the rents are the things that are making it work in Haritch, maybe it's the um tax incentives or some type of financial incentive that maybe we're doing in Yarmouth that makes us a little bit more more attractive. I just wanted
to talk a little bit about the density. I think by the time you take into consideration the buffer zones, which I'm sure we want to keep, um, and then the parking that we've come to realize that right now in the VCOD, it's um, minimum of one, maximum of 1.5 for
residential. We just had 811 come and we're like, this is this is going to be for young professionals. They're going to be a couple. They're both going to have cars. We we need more parking. And they got special permit relief for two parking spaces. So back in the day, one of the things that this whole, this is in the V, this is next to the Kia
dealership and across from the Moose Lodge. One of the things when we were doing the VCOD is I think the Davenports owned it at the time and they were interested in developing it into nice condominiums. And I think even in the VC um in the VC2, you're allowed to go up
to 20 units per acre um with a minimum I think of 100,000 square foot lot, which they had. Um, and they couldn't make it work. They they were having trouble fitting everything in and getting all the parking that they wanted. I think they were even doing those un those They
looked at them. Yeah, they looked at a lot of things. So, I think there's going to be a certain level where you just can't fit everything on a site and have the adequate parking that you need. Um, and that was one of the other things that we talked with Union Studios is um, that they're also going to do things
based on our zoning, but then they're going to say identify like, oh, wait a minute. this is this made it really hard and they might be providing they might be providing some guidelines of saying um and and we were kind of talking about maybe you should be looking at two
parking spaces per residential unit because that you know that's kind of kind of the nature especially depending on you know if you really are talking about couples um that that would definitely be the case and even if you do do have some people who don't need both you have guests and stuff so it's
you know so so having that so they're going to take a look look at all of that. So maybe we'll just say do it based on the zoning, but keep keep in mind maybe we need two parking spaces per unit. And find out what Howitch and Dennisport are doing right. I think
Peter's spot on there. Well, yeah. I mean, the the Haritchport is different than the Harwitch. I mean, this other one, the the 7-Eleven um this project here in the back that wasn't mentioned either. I don't know. Yeah, that was that was I I happened to notice. Yeah, that's a nice project. project, but
that's right on Main Street. Ouch. I don't know if they ended up getting it, but they wanted a million dollars for the condo on the top floor at one time. So, I mean, did they really in downtown area has done a lot of economic redevelopment as well? The mother town it just created a whole They
have an economic development authority. Yeah. Just, you know, I can look at some of those. I mean, I know that Jeff has a certain limited scope of work, but I mean, I can look at the um the food mart one and and kind of maybe the other one
and see what I can find on on them. I think um the chairman is correct that a lot of these successful developments are smaller scale versus the big large. You know, I'm I'm friends with a developer who's building an awful lot of
stuff right now. And um I just spent the week sitting on a beach with him and all I heard about was the regulatory issues that he's gone through to to do some and we all know who he is, but I won't name him. But um his biggest thing was the
regulatory hurdles that they have to go through even if they want to build a a affordable housing project. It's it's that's what makes it that's where the money goes that you get no return on. That was one of the other things that we
talked about too with with Union Studios is um understanding that it's very things are very complicated and maybe cutting down having to go to multiple places. I mean like the VCOD, why do you need to go to the zoning board of appeals for special permit relief? Why can't we just leave the site plan review
and special permit relief right here? you're seeing it already and and just and and then you're cutting out all of that. Maybe we don't need to go to the design review committee. If you guys are doing design review, cut that out. Just go to site plan review, which is just the team, you know, the staff, which is very valuable, just getting all the
staff there together and getting all your input at once. And then come here and and so just simplifying that all together and not making it so complicated. Uh and then you know we've talked for many years that the VCOD bylaw is very complex almost too
complex. Um so you know looking at ways of making it simple and we've chipped away at some some simple things by making a lot of things special permit if we couldn't quite get to it and being a little bit more generic in some of the language but um in all reality it should probably be um you know half the size
that it is. We've put on optional overlay district, optional overlay district on top of optional overlay district to kind of set the table to make us as attractive as possible. Now what we're finding is maybe we're just confusing people. Let's see what we can do about making some things a little bit simpler. I'm very interested in how I do
like the road by I even liked it when I first interviewed here. Um I made a comment about how I liked it because it allows so much flexibility. I think it scares people that they have to come here and then they also have to go to the to the ZDA and it's all the it's all the development costs. It's you never
know what you're going to get and you want certainty. Um but you could get a lot of flexibility um through that and we've seen multiple projects go through the road and I think we're pretty pretty reasonable in going through that. Soft costs can kill a project that quick and
again maybe maybe you guys are the special permit relief for some of these um optional abilities. You already are from hotels. You already are from hotels. So, you know, something to think about to simplify it, make it one-stop shopping.
Um, you know, to Yeah, because sometimes I was just joking like I see a project three times. I see it in design review, site, plan review, and then I see it when it comes to you guys. Like, and I think that's a valid point. I mean, you know, and I like the idea that what Kathy mentioned earlier, going back and
talking to some of these people who have come through this process and finding out, you know, what went well and what didn't and what can we do to fix. You know, it's kind of like when you have a bad meal at the restaurant, if you don't tell them, they're going to continue to have bad meals. Well, if we don't
interview all these developers or potential developers about the hurdles that they've, you know, come across, how can we correct those hurdles and make things a little easier and and more palatable for somebody to come in and invest in our community? I do think the changes um
one of the changes that came about was with regard to appealing special permits. I think there's a higher bar for people to appeal it um than what it used to be before. So I think that is is is beneficial. Someone's gone through all the process. They made it through the hurdle of the of the special permit
and then they get appealed in that whole process. So making it you have to a higher bar you need to do to the old nimi here. Um so I guess the the last thing I wanted to talk about was a little bit was the schedule. I think Jeff touched
upon it. Um as I mentioned the community planning grant all needs to be done by June 30th. So we're we're rush rush rushing. Um I think Union Studios we're gonna have the discussion with them next Wednesday maybe or because they're they're going to be working up here we
go. Um one of their first tasks has to do with developing a comprehensive site program that builds on the benchmarking results identifying key components of each development scenario and they're going to develop a program ensuring flexibility and options for residential unit types and commercial uses. present
this information in a table format and then the planning board will review and select the most optimal alternatives for further design consideration. I think we did a lot of that tonight and maybe maybe that's sufficient. Um but I I'll certainly relay this information to them and and see see whether um this is just
a case of them providing the table. We can talk about it some more or they can come and talk about it. So that's going to be maybe happening at the May 7th meeting is kind of finalizing all of that because um the remainder of the month they're going to be working with staff to come up um with some of the con
conceptual site development layout plans uh for these these three different sites. Um and then on June 4th and I'm sorry also in May as Jeff mentioned they're going to be working on their zoning analysis for us. Um and on June 4th they were going to come with a
presentation and their um for us and their final um kind of report on that. And we're also going to have um Union Studios come at the same time and they would have their their renderings and some discussion on the zoning changes that they have. Um hoping in a couple weeks to have a meeting with um the Cape
Cod Chamber. Bill Scott had I think kind of arranged that. that we just needed to get the date and get kind of the higher level developers. And then we're going to have another meeting sometime in June between June 4th and like later in the month to talk with some of these local developers, see who we can kind of get to come into a room and have these
conversations uh in a kind of an informal way. Uh we could certainly see what what we can do uh about getting different developers to come. And then um June 25th would be their final would be Union Studios final report and presentation. And then of course when this is all done, we might we're then
going to need to take a look at our key issues and action items and see whether we need to make any modifications based on on this additional analysis that's been done. So busy busy next couple months and it looks like we're going to need an extra meeting on June 25th which is not our normal meeting day.
Kathy, what's May 7th again? Could you have May 7th again? Is that for May 7th? That's our regular meeting. That's what I thought. and and hopefully we'll have some discussions with Union Studios, but I think one of the things we're going to have first is um we've been asked to take a look at some additional zoning
amendments for the fall and he knows exactly what I'm talking about relating to boat storage, which we did before. I think I mentioned this already and then also, you know, with the retail sales for fish and shellfish is something to look at. I um I'll include the accessory uh dwelling units on there. I'm not going to have any information, but just
so you know that those are the things that we would be looking at potentially having changes for for the fall special town meeting in addition to, you know, having the local comprehensive plan done in Yeah, that's so um so exciting. I mean, we could have a
lot of amazing stuff done by by the end of the year. So, it's all good. That's what I had. Is that Jeff? Do you have anything else to add? Um, I did want to offer one sort of one
element like my two cents on I think it's going to fall under what Union Studios might do, but I think there was a that was a great discussion. I was listening and taking notes and there's there's a lot of that that I think falls under the regulatory assessment. So, I was kind of trying to absorb some of
that as well. But it was something I think um Susan said and something I think Jim was saying is if you know if at all possible. One of the I think one of the most elusive things is what what does a developer do to find out if a project pencled out because they do that
pretty early in their assessment of a of a project? And I I know that they look at the zoning and they come up with rough numbers. um and if there was any opportunity for you know your work to talk to a developer who's willing to share the the elements of what they're
looking at in terms of the cost. So there's the cost of acquisition you know of a of a property. Sometimes there's cost of demolition, there's the cost of permitting. Um and then there's the cost of like what could they achieve per rental unit and then what would be the revenue from a commercial space. And you
know, if you could get insight into what pencils out, I think that would be really helpful um to to help determine the the density that you were talking about that 16 units per acre. I think finding out if that pencils out or that might be one of the constraints. Um
that's something I know we're going to identify that as a the density as a possible uh constraint, but I don't know that we have enough scope to interview a developer to talk about kind of their their back end or the front end. actually it's like really early in the process but so that was my two cents is
if there was any opportunity to get a developer to talk to you about that it might be really informative we might be able to do that because like for the um the two affordable housing litec projects um that the Dakota did at Cavalere and then um Jim Perne at at the Yarmouth Gardens they had to do a full
proforma you know as part of like their once you know their submittal to the affordable housing trust because we gave them some money and they through an RFP so they can kind of see you know these are all of your um your expenses so to speak and here's your income and kind of what they use for some of those things.
So, we can certainly see if we can't um I mean they're on the list of potential people to invite um yeah, you might want someone who's not doing LITC and all that all the affordable housing tax credits because that's that's why I think you and many other communities are
getting the all affordable developments is because they stack those dollars together and it really works for their for their perform. I think that's the private kind of like developer of a of a mixeduse property. Just understanding what they what they're putting together would be helpful. Um like I said, it's
elusive and they're not they're not often willing to share that. Yeah, agreed. We do we do have the three mixed use projects that are kind of going on now with the the Jud the some of the costs are fixed costs and it's the ones
they can't control that that are problematic and you're trying to find a point where okay what do we let's put this into the pro let's put this into our project and see if it works if it comes in above that you need to adjust your rent you need to do it it's the soft cost as Jim point out that you
cannot control and some of it's financing I mean financing is all over the place now and unless you can get a bank to commit to something early, you may not get your financing number until well into the development you know idea. So it's a it's an interesting discussion and uh you know these minds make those
decisions all the time. Uh it's that's why it's called an investment. You know you roll the dice and see what time brings you. So, uh, the the the point on the calendar piece, Kathy, is we're we're scheduling a an extra meeting in June.
Yeah. Yeah. If anyone can knows their availability, but we we might be able to couple that with no July 3rd. Yes, we did mention that. Yes. If we're meeting three times in June, we probably don't need to meet one week later. And it's
the Fourth of July week anyway. Be in Canada. Hey, in July, but not in June. Yeah, I'm doing Madam Chair, I won't be able to be there on June 25th. That's the first night of camp. And as someone who's worked every July 4th for the last 25 years, I say, what's the big deal?
Why is it so why people are like as soon as it the word July is mentioned, it's like the calendar gets radioactive. So funny. It's all good though. Of course, Madam Chair. Thank you, Will. Uh obviously we want to make sure that we have as as many people there as possible
and they certainly understand the first day of camp is I don't I don't understand at all. He's been doing it for so many years. Unacceptable. Okay. I will Shouldn't it just be automatic by now? Will just open the open the door. Leave the keys. Leave the keys. The longer you do something, the
less work you have. Yes. That's how it works. Don't we wish. So any any more on on this topic, Keith? No, I think we're good. Okay, great. Um, well, we're good on this. Yeah, what we got the I was going to go right on to
something else, but we'd have to look at the uh the changes to the Oh, yeah. And the and the the um policy select board meeting because we have a select board meeting update on the 6th, right, on the
local comprehensive plan. Um, I think one of the things when I was kind of thinking about putting it together, um, you know, talking about obviously all the great community input we've done with the interviews, the open house, community meetings, we have all the online mapping stuff. Um, but then also
talking about the key issues and and action items and I'm like, this is a lot of work. Why don't we get this a little bit, talk about it tonight with some of the edits from the last meeting and some of the input from Chief Lennon and maybe attach this to the memo because this
shows them where we're going and maybe we'll actually get some early input from the select board on the on where we're going. Um, so it doesn't become something like when we're presenting the full draft to them and they're like, "Oh, I don't like that or why did you do that?" They'll they'll kind of have that. So, I was kind of hoping to maybe
go through this um tonight and um I'm sorry, Jeff. Yes. Does he need to stay? What's this? Does he need to stay? Did he go either way? No, I'm still
here. I would I would like to just stay for this discussion and hear hear it. Um I would appreciate that. Yeah. No, and I but you have to hang out for nothing. I did send this I send this to you. I did um just so you know what we were talking about and hopefully Will has it
electronically uh as well because I don't think we're going to be able to see it here particularly. Um but the growth policy I I did just so you know I accepted all the changes from the last time and then so anything that's here red line is based on on a change based on comments from the from the last
meeting. So I think you know with the key issues I think we're just trying to modify some of the the way things were were worded. So threats to drinking water quality and and a lot of these came from Joanne about cost and rate implications for water supply and I added infrastructure and treatment you
know going down to instead of developing funding mechanisms s the key issue is sustainable funding mechanisms and then also identification of suitable locations um and then just water quality deterioration of our of our freshwater ponds and then kind of getting rid of
the the last item. think this hopefully this accurate maybe we can go through and you can let me know if you think this accurately reflects kind of what we talked about. I'll just keep going unless you tell me otherwise. Um one of the things that we
also talked about maybe was um as the importance of the regional septage treatment facility. So I ended up including you know continue the operation of the regional septic treatment facility which treats and disinfects wastewater pump from septic systems under the wastewater under item
three there under wastewater. It's kind of all related to and there was an article uh town meeting last night on this subject. Yeah. It's not in it's not in good shape. Yeah. Makes you want to get bottled water. Um and and also like if we had things
where I said, you know, there were questions like any specific project, if no one's mentioned anything so far, I've just cro I'm going to cross them out, right? Yeah, exactly. Um doesn't mean I won't hear from maybe some staff or something. And again, the same thing here under wetland resources is just
wetland resources and buffers at risk. And then also getting rid of the last item there about ensuring adequate protection for wetland resources because it's more of a an action, not necessarily a key issue. Um and then moving on, they did the same
thing with the plant and wildlife plant and wildlife habitats at risk um from development. Oops, we got several pages of nothing. And then we come back to um community design and land use. Again, we got rid
of the first the first item there and the second item really just being more generic of balancing a mix of commercial and residential development along Route 28. I think that's what we finally had had come up with as as the language for that. Um I do know that when we were
talking about transportation, the Cape Cod bridges came up on page nine there. Um, I just mentioned the the deteriorated condition of the Cape Cod bridges and impacts to the transportation network and economic viability of our community during the long-term bridge repairs and replacement. That might be too long.
Perfect. Okay, good. Um, and then as you move to the next page, um, I just I didn't I felt like we identified that as a key issue. So what what kind of is our related um action items, you know, and as feasible,
support the funding, design, and implementation of Mass Dot's Cape Cod Bridges program to replace a Sagamore and Bourne Bridge and surrounding transportation network. And again, getting rid of some of the extra questions. Uh Kathy, I I I
did I'm I'm thinking only because as I mentioned earlier, my street became a bypass for sewer and um I'm I'm guessing that when when the Bass River Bridge project starts,
um the the mitigation plan that DOT has got to put in place should be, you know, is going to be very important. It's I believe that they're going to be maintaining the traffic like they did with the Parker's River Bridge where they moved to the two lanes right to one
half while they're working on that and then they would move it back. Okay, that's my understanding because you're absolutely right. That can't stay closed. Um I'm trying to remember. Do we actually mention that project
um the replacement of the bridge? It was mentioned on the earlier page about some of the um about it's in poor condition, Madam Chair. It's under key issues on page nine near the bottom above the Cape Cod
bridges. I mean, the truth is it's being replaced. Well, at the same time, it's still a key issue. Both things are true. Where am I? Where am I missing? That's the Route Six bridge. Will Route Six bridge? That's not the route 28 bridge is not mentioned. I I think that's Oh,
I'm so sorry. I thought you were talking I thought you were talking about best for Sorry. That's okay. Um it is a bullet point on page nine. Route six. Oh, Route six. Wondering if those bridges aren't in great shape either. So, you know what? I didn't focus on the number, Madam Chair. I just saw Bass
River Bridge and I just thought you were talking about the one that we associate with between Dennis and Yarm. Um just add them add the other one right there in the same Yeah. I I I think that reconstruction project is is going to
have impacts no matter what. It's going to have and they're going to have, you know, having rebuilt some bridges in New York and New Jersey. Um mitigation is really important. They're going to have it open and closed. Even if they say they're going to keep it open, it'll be open and closed if they do any work at
night. Um, and I just think the effects on on that particular neighborhood is going to be significant on both sides of the river. Um, I I don't I'm sorry I'm bringing it up now. No, that that's I'm just wondering what what is the actual
action item that we're talking about. I I just think it would have to be close close communication and collaboration with DOT. Um, not unlike what we're trying to do with the Route 28 roadway replacement, we we need to, you know, be
on like Jeff usually is on top of it. Um, and and and knowing what some of the, you know, main issues are and it also will affect the waterway underneath it and all of us who have boats and and have
um the the the more communication the better. I think the the marine traffic as well as the automobile traffic and pedestrian traffic over the bridge um is going to be affected by it for years to come.
So, I'm sorry. I'm just No, no, this is easy. Traffic through my neighborhood today got me going. Big trucks with loud mufflers. Madam Chair, can I ask a quick question? You may.
Um, this is pretty in in in detailed stuff that's going on in this town and the things that we're planning on doing. Some of these things have already been accomplished in action items. Um, I know you said what and I just turned the page. I
should have been ready for that, wouldn't I have? Um, so things like one of them was the completion of uh what page um page 13. The other night we passed uh money to develop a historic
Yamoth initiative to identify, preserve, and protect. No, that's not the one. The fabrication installation of the Yeah, the installation of revolution. So, we're going to do that. It's been passed. I guess it's not fabricated or installed. Well, this is true. Maybe that's a
contract awarded and the attorney general hasn't approved it yet. That's true, too. So, I can see where these would be action items. That one would be one that by the time fall comes, we've got we'll be deleting some stuff there. There are and I and I apologize because I just kept flip I
kept flipping through. There are some of these that that we are really close, you know, for for people that that don't pay attention to what goes on in town. If they pay attention for one second, there's a lot of stuff that we're getting done in this town. And and my point being is as I'm flipping through,
I'm seeing some of this stuff. Gee, we just passed a town meeting or we just accomplished that the uh you know, the Parkers River Landing is near completion. So, um, this is giving people a really good and that's why maybe it's a little more wordy and I I know that Jeff has going to do some word
smithing and some combining and some, uh, organization and everything, but I I'm I'm I'm really thinking that people may only read the action and and it needs to be described enough so that people understand kind of what it is.
Um, so we'll we'll word smmith some of that, but I think this this is kind of the bulk of the right ideas. I guess that's kind of where where we're at. Could we maybe add like an asterk next to ones that are like in progress or we will do that in the in the actual in the
final implementation identify in the number of years. Okay. So an implementation that's what that'll be. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a good point. Um because a lot of these things are happening now and some may happen for the full five next five years or may not start like the the bridges and stuff
you know some of them may not actually start construction but we can certainly support that. It's a pretty impressive list of things that the town is working on. And um so just on page 11 under waste management again minimizing the volume of materials sent to landfills. Again
that's kind of seen as an actual action. So that was eliminated. Um typo and effectiveness. Um, yeah. Nothing really significant on there. Page 13. I just again, Jim, just to get back to your point on page 13,
number four, that article on the town common was passed last night. Right. That's a perfect example. Yeah. But we need to do the assessment. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I figured if it didn't pass, we would just We're just redlining. That's right.
Everything passed last night. I probably will take you we'll take out the selectman select board goal there. So, but could I go back to page 12 for a second? So, under capital infrastructure facilities, it says this will be its own section.
um the goals and key issues that you have listed here, they'll jive with what's going to be added under Yes. that section. So that all corresponds with each other. Okay. I mean, a lot of the the the the infrastructure projects here aren't
necessarily ours. like all the mass DOT projects aren't aren't ours, but there will be like things like the sewering and the you know the water treatment the PAS for the other two wells all of those things you know will are identified in the capital improvement program. I need
to get with um I need to get with Bill Scott too and make sure that it's nice because we're done for the fiscal you know the for the fiscal year so we kind of have a good plan for the next 5 to 10 years. So, so is that where action items will be
filled in through? Yes. Yes. Yep. And there is a fiveyear plan. Yeah. There's a five and a we're working on it. Well, 10's not done. Uh done. Oh, no. No, we're working on it. We're working on a 10-year capital plan, but
there's a five-year plan right now that needs to be finalized. And that a 10-year plan is in the works. And we're also working on a separate totally separate transportation plan meaning town vehicles separate from the rest of capital. Yeah. Okay. So, a rolling stock
plan. That was the name of it. That's going to be completely separate to get that under control. When do you think that's going to what when do you think that's going to be done or do you think that's that's our task that we've been tasked to get that try and get that done? This by this
fall. Okay. Oh, interesting. Okay. I just need the team to we'll be editing that section up to the last minute. Could I add something real quick on the capital infrastructure facilities plan? That was something that when Kathy and I had the call with the Cape Cod Commission, they said, you know, I think
we will be trying to put together the draft language for that chapter and then we are going to rely on the the SIP that you guys already have, the five-year plan at least. We'll we'll identify that the the goal of that 10-year plan. But they made a good point um and it would be an exercise that we would expect to
probably do with the plane board between now and like August before the public hearing time is looking to make sure that there are not projects cuz there are if there are any other projects that are not listed in the in the CIP somewhere that we we probably want to
pull them into this capital infrastructure plan section. So you guys have done tremendous work to come up with your you know your fiscal policies and that'll get mentioned and then you have the the projects that are known. It's kind of those projects that maybe would be falling outside of that 10ear
span. They have made the suggestion that this would be a good place to kind of put them or refer to them at least in a in a tangental way at least. So I just wanted to mention that because that's kind of something that's forthcoming on our task over the next you know next few weeks to come up with a draft chapter
for you guys. Awesome. Okay. Already got nothing on 14. Um I think this was just rewarding um the the comment on high speed just saying expand access to highspeed internet to other areas of town. I think that was the discussion
that we had last time. Maybe modifying that. I think this was mostly a discussion with you Ken. Did you did you have is that Yes, that was that was a piece that I put asked. Yes. Oops. Housing. Um town services. Um we did
have you guys had a great comment about um the the fire has a strategic plan. What about the police strategic plan? Um, I I sent that an inquiry to the police chief asking if he had the strategic plan, but I also gave him the standard uh questionnaire, which is
basically what are your three key issues, what are your main key issues, what are you doing to address these issues, and what are you going to be doing in the next 5 to 10 years? Uh, and he gave a great response. You guys have I printed that out um for everyone and I tried to incorporate it in into this document. I think the key is is some of
the things that he mentioned like um you know substance abuse and mental health issues. I I left that under health. I didn't put it also under public safety. So there's some places and that's the whole thing with this entire thing. There's certain things that could go in so many different locations. Um but you
had to kind of pick a spot to have it or you'd be duplicating everything. Um I think one of the things that the chief did uh mention was you know they also feel impacts of limited attainable housing is really impacting town recruitment and staffing. So we wanted to emphasize that I put that under
government because I think it's doing all municipal government is not just just police and fire. Um but he did have a some very interesting ideas that I did incorporate um in here related to um limited funding available for training
and staff development. He wants to do a lot more more training and sometimes you get some grants for these things but those things seem to be drying up a little bit. So making sure that you have funding for that and there's also a very high cost of investment to onboard public safety personnel. I say like $90,000 per candidate. And if you spend
them to send them through the whole academy and everything and then they leave a couple years later, that's a huge expense that the town of Yarmouth has borne um that that we're not getting any long-term benefits out of it. Um you also not noticed uh increasing language
barriers with residents and visitors that do not um speak English. And then also being sure to staying current with evolving technology to enhance police service and also increasing the number of of technology related crimes that
they are have to investigate. think I might have missed something else, but um and then just so going I guess to the top of page 19 of looking at it. Um Kathy, the one thing I think you and I talked about or
you mentioned was one of his actions is to develop a strategic plan. Yes. The chief I realized as I had already printed it all out. I had sent it to you guys that Yeah. develop an updated police strategic plan will be right underneath the the the implementate
develop I should say develop and implement and I'll put that right underneath um the fire department. Yep. But at the top there, I mean, I did feel like even though we talk about different housing, I think it came really came up
through the mataki process of creating housing specifically for um municipal employees or teachers or or people in the health care profession that that we want to be serving all of us here. So just investigating ways to
provide attainable housing for critical positions in municipal government, education, and healthcare. I think it is something that we're doing already at Madakis at least with the recommendations from the housing uh land use uh group. Um one of the things that um the
chief also mentioned is that we're talking about number three leveraging grants to fund personnel training and public education. I added technology and equipment. But what he's finding is that a lot of these grants are are drying up. So, we might need to start putting them into our annual municipal budget. And
also things that if it's personnel and we need them long term, it needs to be in the budget. It's not something that you might be able to get away with a grant the first year. And I know the fire has been able to get some grants in the past as well. Um, but if you really need four more people, you need to ultimately be putting them in in the
budget for for that. So, that's what that is. Um, and then also one of the things you mentioned was being sure that we retain funding for a full-time clinician working with the police department because again I think that's grant funded and that that's that's at risk um right now. Um, I'm not sure I
got all the way through everything that he had. Um the only thing the language barriers was one thing that I I don't know whether he wanted to do an action item with that related to that because he he basically noted that um
officers continue to encounter language barrier issues when assisting residents and visitors who do not speak English. Portuguese and Spanish are the most common languages encountered. We currently use a language line interpreter service but that is becoming cost prohibitive. researching devices officers can carry in the field to
translate and also seeking candidates um that are bilingual. Google translate everybody Google translate. They're actually earbuds. I have one for work for my Portuguese staff. The earbuds you can put in your ear and it will translate. Translate it. Translate what
they're saying in Portuguese to English. Then I speak into my phone and it transmit what I'm saying back into Portuguese back to them. How expensive is that? like 45 bucks for the earbud and Google translates on your forms and app. So there there are workarounds.
It's all I'm saying. I mean the police have a vastly different test than I do managing people. But all I'm saying is for 45 bucks you put an earbud in your ear and it works almost incredibly. It really is. And if you don't have the money for the the app works great. Yeah. Just just could you speak into the phone
and it translate it right there in front of you. I use it all the time when I travel. He's just talking about I can't even spell a Greek word. Each officer needs a $50 earbud or something. Yeah, it sounds like they're working on that. I don't know whether we need to do anything
about that. They're smart over there. They'll figure it out. Yeah. There's also lots of social service organizations that are doing the bilingual programs. So, very much in the forefront. Yeah. Don't need to hire an interpreter. Everything's right there.
Yeah. So that was all I had. So if you guys are are good with that, I might Very well done. Might just accept the edits and then attach that as um Yeah. Okay, that sounds good. And I'll just what I'm going to do is I'm going to
have just a little quick summary memo and then I'm going to attach this I'm going to work up a PowerPoint, but I'm not going to be able to get it into their packet by tomorrow. Um, so I'm just going to summarize the memo kind of in like a little PowerPoint presentation. Um, do we need a motion to
accept this or it's still draft? I'll just put draft four on it or something. Accept it. Accept it. Could I could I ask a question? Sure. Um, well, first, thank you because I think the your collaboration and working through this is is great. It's helping us, too. So,
um, so I appreciate that a lot. all the way back on like page one. I I didn't want I should have chimed in at the beginning, but I think it there's one thing I would want to discuss briefly with this board as you're going to the select board. I think, you know, I think providing them this document is great
because I think it is really the core of what we're going to see in the LCP, but I think we might want to be letting them know that some of it may shift around. Yeah. It may not really look the same, you know, and we wouldn't want it to
exactly look the same, but um I think my point is that right now, because this is a nice rate, uh nice consolidation, you have goal, key issues, and actions, right? And I think one one of the structures that we're looking at is like existing conditions is going to cover um
sort of the key issues. And then we're going to have the relationship to the the town efforts, like the plans that relate. um we're going to have that kind of in the beginning of the LCP and then towards the end when we get into that targeted action plan and that's where it
shifts to um goal and then it's the actions and so I just don't want someone to get confused where where we start to we have it all kind of like bundled together. We're going to kind of unbundle it a little bit. I think all the language that you're working on we're going to we're going to try to maintain all that. So that's very
helpful for us. But I just wanted to say that out loud that I think for the select board they might want to know that these are the pieces the pieces might move. Um good point. And then related one one thing I did want to mention and Kathy and I spoke about this briefly and unfortunately we're just not
we're not at the same pace as you guys. One of the um proposed changes that we're kind of in the process of making it's relatively minor but it's worth mentioning is related to water resources. It's really one of the first thing that comes up. Um, and it's the
goal um, it's really the first goal. I'm looking at page two. Um, fresh, marine, and ocean. And the goal is to attain sustainable supply of high quality drinking water to meet our community needs and preserve, protect, and restore the quality and functions of our fresh,
marine, and ocean resources. What we're finding is that that is we would like to pull that apart into at least two or three goals. um because as we pan through the rest of the document, it's going to make things easier. So the
quality of drinking water um becomes water supply and we we kind of see two things here which is the quality. So all the PAS and all those similar issues that related to the quality and also the supply is whether there's enough water
to supply future development. So, we're kind of suggesting that that goal would become attain sustainable supply of highquality drinking water to meet our community needs. And that helps us flesh out this water supply, which then breaks down to um the key issues. We can kind
of pull some of them apart and isolate them a little bit better. And then the actions become easier to show at the end. Um and if you just um bear with me for a moment, I think the other really important piece of pulling them apart is the
wastewater. Um we we've seen so many discussions the importance of that is so high. So what we're proposing is there be the secondary goal to continue with the implementation of the Yarmouth wastewater program and that's an overarching goal and it allows us to
call out these actions that are all all kind of wastewater oriented and it makes us much that first section is what I think we really got bogged down in our first draft you guys is there's so much under just those two categories. It
allows us to then break off kind of um wetlands and fresh water and salt water as other goals and it just helps that section kind of breathe a little bit whereas that that one goal um it's very dense and it's hard for it was hard for
us to break it down without pulling out different goals. So I don't think you need to change anything for the select board packet but I think just talking to them a little bit about how you know some of these pieces might move around a little bit moving forward. Yeah. Yeah, Jeff and I had talked about that and I thought it was a great idea and so when
he started moving things, this is a good guide. It's not the exact, but I thought I really think that once you go into the details, he's he might find that even like some uh action items might be served better in different locations as we move as we move along with things. So, um I I thought that was a great
idea. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. So Kathy, maybe you can just incorporate that notion in your cover memo. Yes. As well here. Yep. Uh because I think that you know the
original kind of table of contents that we had Yes. laid out. Um that might be helpful. I'm going to steal like for the PowerPoint. I'm going to steal the of some that slide of the of the um table of contents that that BSC group and that's where these things move into
different into they they they rest in different places. Yeah. And then just one other point which I I think would be important for your select board is you know there is a lot here and it might be a lot for them to kind of absorb but I think by all the
effort that's been put in so far I think you've identified like the lion's share of what we would see going in there might be something new that comes comes forward like the police department strategic plan is kind of a good example but we're not expecting the wholesale
brand new items floating in at this point I think we have a pretty good handle on it. So, I think it's good a good point to present to them. And I think by giving it to them, you know, in a real honest way, you know, like all these action items are have been put forward, you know, kind of their work,
they're getting worked through, but I think it's a really good assessment of where where we're at overall and I'm not expecting like any real big surprises um with new items at this point. So, I think it's a it's a good time to present to them. So, I just wanted to add that. Thanks. Um, one other thing that that
Jeff and I talked about was um, and maybe you can talk a little bit about this. We had talked about maybe doing a survey and I think there was some concerns about maybe having survey overload and that maybe what we should be doing is we and we've done this on other things where we have the draft open for public comment for like 45 days
and somewhere in there is our public presentation and then people can be providing their their comments on that. So I don't know if you had anything to add on that Jeff. Well, I mean, I think we were talking about it internally and the idea of a survey sounds good and I know that we I
I talked about it, but I do think we want to be we want to make sure that we would be getting something something from it. And so, we did start to have this discussion where at this at this point would we you know, it's a lot of information. So, if we really tried to
test people on how they react to these goals or actions, I I think that there's there's a lot of information here. we might we might not get a lot of people to take the survey at this point. We're we're just not sure like if we want to rank, you know, people on these goals,
we they're all really important. So, if you try to say like drinking water versus, you know, staff support for the police department and you ask someone to rank those, you know, we're going to probably get the the drinking water, but people are going to support the other one, too. So, we just wanted to question the viability of a survey at this point,
but really talk we were talking to Kathy about putting it out for draft for draft review. Um, and I think that's a that's a decent approach, but I guess you probably want to talk to the select board as well. So, I guess it's a discussion piece. I think I think it was just kind of in talking about the next
steps and the time and the timeline. I think what I I didn't know whether I would should mention that we might have a survey. I think what we would mention is that we do you have any, you know, I mean, I know that we had talked about August as being the public meeting. So maybe, you know, we would have
the sometime in the summer we would have it out for public comment in addition to the time period when we have the the public hearing and then people can provide their comments. Um, we have a a particular um email address all set up, you know,
LCParmm.us, us. So people could just provide all their comments directly there. Um and of course people know my address too. But uh Lisa keeps it all in one spot and then we and then we can kind of go through and make those those edits. I do feel like we've gotten an enormous amount of public input. Um so I
think as as Jeff mentioned that we are on a good track. The alliance shares of all of the issues have been I think identified. Um but people always come up with little nuggets. you know, maybe someone who wasn't involved, they they have something to to um to offer that's that's new. So, um so I'm I'm fine with
that and I don't mind mentioning that as a next step as part of the memo of what we would do because the whole goal is to get us to fall town meeting. Yeah, I think opening it up for public comment is is I think people are kind of survey survey tired and it's so it's like I mentioned before, you know, we did we
did do that to kind of vet the the goals and objectives for the open space and recck plan and it was just too involved. It was too involved and people you could see how people started real strong and then the numbers dropped off as you got to through the survey. People just bailed. So I I I agree with with Jeff
and Heather on that. So good on the presentation, Kath? I think so. Okay. I have no minutes. Sorry. Minutes. You want to get in the muck? Let's We could do the muk board member items. Come on. I think I'm going to leave the
meeting because I think muk is does not directly involve me personally. So, thank you very much for Thanks for joining us. Thanks for the time. Yep. Thanks. try to bring a I'm going to hand out here what I was given. We had a
meeting our final meeting Monday and the last meeting I mentioned we had three scenarios that we were sort of by meeting two we and Kathy you were there yes Monday too so feel free to
jump in um you know this meeting was a little over two hours and it wasn't enough time for the 13 or 15 of us in a round table to really decide what our how we were going to present present our
the order in which we were going to present our three items here. Right? So I think if you scan it quickly, you can see that we had a standalone indooroutdoor sports complex and then we had something that was
um somewhat smaller sports complex event performance space and then option three was more of a mixeduse development including you know whether it's housing, retail um events type space type project. So
three very different ideas and we only need to put three into the funnel but we were asked to number them one to three each of the committee me everybody that was there and there was five from CEDC and everybody else
was local Paul Mazooki you know um Jack Hines Jamie Vieiraa so the other and of course the chamber and some other gentleman's from you know the softball men's softball group soccer group. So they were well represented but so we
were asked to go through it and it was interesting because my my idea I'll say what I I was the first one to sort of come up with what I thought what I would do which was be a combination of one two and three and mine was two and three because one is a very when you go
through it you see one is one is a very large hard to imagine complex you know in terms of size scale and of course we even gotten to the point where we can say this would really be a private development, you know, with with what
we're looking at. Um, Bill Scott was there as well yesterday. But I mean, you know, I run down what our group thought, what the CED s CDC thought, but I think we have to keep in mind that, you know, this really wasn't a um a CEDC committee
because we had another influence. There was actually four meetings. They had their meeting first, we had our meeting first. So, you know, I think if we had more time, the CEDC is to to sit together after yesterday's meeting. And Courtney, our chair, is still going to
put together, I think, the final answer as to how we're going to present it back to the muck committee. But, you know, everybody had sort of a plan. You know, I I think I I wrote down numbers here and I don't know who it was who. You know, somebody wanted two, somebody wanted combo two, three, somebody liked one, two, somebody
liked two, three, someone liked two, Pauliki liked number one, of course, you know, so there was a lot of support for one on the other side. Um, because of its size and scale, right? It's it's going to bring a lot of people here, not only to Yarmouth, but to, you
know, benefit the entire Cape of course as well. Um, so I don't really have an answer to tell you what the final answer was. Well, I think uh Alexis from Barrett Group Yeah. was going to also be working on what they're trying to do is
get the three down funnel down to the to the one one that's moderate and then one that's elevated so to speak. I got that people were after the a lot of discussion back and forth is people were kind of leaning more towards two because they like the idea of a sports facility
but they wanted to also be sure that there was some type of convention or um meeting space performance space call it event space event space. Yeah, exactly. Um but then they also want to be sure that there's outdoor fields as well. Right.
Um and then maybe inside the sports complex it was talked about well you know lots of times there is retail within them you know whether it's like um you know a small little pub or something or I think in some of the examples that Paul Nitsiki was talking about they had like they even had like I
think sports medicine in there and they had um you know a shoe store you know like um those are very large offkate communities that was Pittsburgh. I mean this what you know and my point was you know I think we have to consider what we are in terms of we can support you know
we're not our population is very different not only in terms of size but age and and everything else and we can cons you know the Mass Mutual Center as a as a sort of example is is sort of extreme granted no one thinks we're going to do that no but
along that line that's I think what what also came out of it is people saying well we don't want people to just come here and stay here. We don't want it to be a one stop and people just sit there. We want people to go to all these other places on Route 28. So, not making it too um too heavy
on the retail or whatever other things that people will be doing there because we want to get people out into the community. I think one of the main emphasises of the kind of like what I heard going to the wreck the first wreck committee meeting was that there's a real need just for Cape Codwide. Forget
going beyond Cape Cod. All our kids are going off Cape for all of these tournaments. there's not a place here on Cape Cod. So, I kind of was envisioning that the people were kind of going, well, let's take care of our Cape Cod kids and and do the regional tournament. Maybe there's a sports center that has
some meeting spaces convention. I think what you're trying to what the economic team's trying to come up with is a is a general idea um and kind of the different sizes. And I think that's why Alexis was trying to ask about what how many fields you wanted and and what size and that type
of thing. size and scope was important to her and and I understand because that's part of it but you know at the same time we don't know really how much of the land or how much is needed by other people you know other group so we can't sit here and say oh we you know we we need 20 30 you know we
envision you know scenario one two or three to be this size and this number of units because it's it's just it's crazy to you know the number of times I heard cart before the horse last night was was often so there's certainly a lot of unknown questions And and I think it's but I think you
guys maybe have the the general idea that then gets presented to the muck and the muck and their consultant BSC group is the one who are going to say okay this is what housing came up this is what recreation came up this is what open open space and water came up this is what the economic group how can we come up with some combinations and
multiple combinations and the schools let's not forget about maybe a potential school um and h how can how can we do that and what might might work and we were very similar to recreation From what I understand, right, I think so. I think our sort of conclusions were sort of
mirrored each other. Yeah. And they're doing the field study, too. So, I think they they have some ideas of what fields that they might want to see at at Madakis as well. So, all of that stuff is going to kind of go into the the the mixer from the funnel and uh and
hopefully, you know, come up with some some different ideas. And I think what you will identify is this may be what we want to do and it gets identified, but is this really something that's feasible? Is there a market for this? And that's the another analysis that it needs to be done because we certainly don't want to go down the marina road,
you know, where we had an idea and but then years and years later we we found that it really wasn't financially viable. Um and then there was a whole discussion about, you know, whether we sell the land or public private partnership or whether it's it's just a local thing. And so there's all kinds of
question. There's there's although we've come a long way, there's like 10 times longer way to go in order to to even come close to coming up with an idea. So a lot of work still needs to be done. Madam Chair, can I ask a quick question of of Peter because you went to this
this meeting on page five benchmark examples for four kit. It says 11 indoor sports fields, four basketball, and four footsel. What the heck is an fut?
Oh, I don't know. It's a It's indoor soccer gym. Oh, played to a certain in a certain size and a certain standard. I've never seen or heard such a thing. Sounds fascinating. Popular. They play it like in a hockey rink type thing.
I won't bore you with the details, but it's indoor soccer. I'll Google it. I'll Google it. Thanks, Will. Let's just say for our friends in the Brazilian community, it's a big deal. I'll Google it. Thanks. I was kind of curious. Yep.
That's really it. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. More to come. Uh any other uh board member items? Uh, I do, Madam Chair. A couple of things. Um, tomorrow morning a group of us are
going to go visit the Parkers River Landing Riverwalk Park. Um, and if you want to buy a plank, you can still do that. There's a whole bunch of them left. $350 for an individual, $450 for a nonprofit, and $550 for
business. 24 characters. See the young lady to my right? And she can make sure you get it taken care of. It's a great gift for people. Um, and it's pretty amazing. I snuck out there the other day and did a quick walk on my own. I would encourage that. It's not a not not a thing that
people should be doing. Um, but I've actually figured out you can actually walk a onem loop um including the boardwalk. And so it's going to be pretty cool that way. But um, uh, so that's the the the key item that I had this evening. The other thing I wanted
to bring up is is and we had Kathy had alluded to some of it. Um over the last couple of actually probably the last week and a half, two weeks, I've had conversations with people that have discussed issues
um that we've touched upon. So I think May 7th meeting um I've had an individual talk to me about the the trailers and boats and I think Kathy's also aware of that. um looking at a a a bylaw that was put in
place in 1971. Interestingly enough, so it brings back to my thought process of and I mentioned this earlier because I don't I know we don't have anything else to do. So, I thought maybe I could give us something to do. But, um, it reminds me that maybe it's time
for us to even if we take one page at a time or something and start looking at our bylaws and and other things that are put in place in 1971 that just don't make sense anymore. And I'm not saying those do or don't, but when I realize
that that bylaw was put in place in 1971, it makes me wonder, you know, what else do we have in there that that we need or don't need anymore? So maybe somehow, you know,
after November, we get our catch our breath, we start looking at doing a a review of our existing bylaws and where we need to make some because I know we're going to need to make some changes ultimately when we do some of this. So maybe starting in November, we start
taking, you know, Dedra, you do the first three pages next meeting. I mean, but the point I'm making is that it it it's become obvious to me that there are some issues that we need to to go back and look at about our bylaws that are
basically a living document. And it is an action item. Yeah, it needs to be, in my opinion, we need to look at rewriting the whole thing. Oh gosh, I was trying to give you just a little bit to do, but I think we've been doing that all along where we've been being reactionary, not
proactive, and trying to do what we can to make ourselves as attractive as possible um with all these optional overlay districts. Um, I think just we need to look at that more clearly and just simplify a lot of the processes and maybe um not have so many options for
people because they don't they don't understand it and it it gets confusing. Um, so I guess I don't want to put a lot of effort into doing that when we really should be concentrating on let's get through all of this and start some of these action items which are what what
grant can we get to hire someone to help us rewrite the zoning zoom by right in my opinion and then also once we have um a certified local comprehensive plan you know the whole process of do we want to look at the growth incentive zone do we want to maybe change that up because
right now it's the 35 motel properties are there certain areas we want to give certain things to and what would be involved with doing all of that. So there's a ton of work that going to come out of this LCP process of things that we need to do and I keep mentioning the
design standards I think need the architectural site design standards need a complete burn it in the backyard and start a fresh um so um so there's there's a lot of things that I think once we we should be concentrating it more holistically and not I realize that we're always
going to have reactionary things because some things and that that's kind of my point is like we keep getting psy sidetracked by having to deal with, you know, the reactionary things as you referred to it as. So, it keeps us from going forward with getting stuff. So, maybe chipping away at it might be the
answer. I don't know. The problem is is it is a holistic document. You kind of need to to look at it all together. So, let's get through November. I just want to bring it up. I don't I'm not suggesting we start it now. It's a lot of work to to rewrite the zoning. And I know everyone always wants to talk about
looking at form base code and all that kind of stuff. Um so those are things that we would all need to to to think about as we as we move forward. I have one item um on the CPC committee. Um we had a committee
reorganization and Judy Wilchinsky is now the chair. Um so she'll be um I guess nominated to the select board as the new chair. Um, and we have three. We now
have three vacancies. Oh, you do? Wow. That's unheard of on CPC. Well, there's there's Gary, there's Christine, and not housing. There's one more. Is it Is it a
rep from some other? Yeah, I think it's I think Gary and Chris is Christine open. No, Christine is open space. I think Gary was at large. Judy is was at large and will still be. Um,
okay. Wreck Debbie is still there. Oh, Drew Drew is from housing. He's the housing authority rep. So, we have we have two. Okay. I think I appointed Gary to that committee originally 20some years ago.
We miss him. Okay. Um Kathy, any any further staff updates that you want to share with us? Yeah, the um just speaking of committees, um Liz Argo is looking at um anyone who might be interested in the public arts
committee. We're looking to um to come up with with appointees for that. Um really looking at uh different ways and guidelines of facilitating public art on public land. So, kind of outside stuff um that hopefully can
promote tourism and and that type of thing and make our town have a more of an identity in that type of thing. So, if you're interested, fill out a talent bank form for the public art committee. And I had a few comments from the last week, the
uh workshop, the housing workshop that was the select board and the community housing and affordable housing trust. And it was very interesting uh presentation about four ongoing things. The short-term rental study, which
sounds very interesting and it's moving along. And uh then also about the mixed use that we've spent tonight talking about uh another presentation about MUK. And then finally the um RFP that is out
for the housing authority for that very controversial lot on Forest Forest Road. And that the proposals are due May 7th. So that will be coming up in our future. And I don't know if I think basically
there was a lot a huge amount of information on all of those issues and it was really great for me coming in new to learn a lot about them all. Uh so if you know if anyone wants to know about any of the handouts or wants to see them
let me know. I I can make some copies. I think it's also probably included um in the packet on the agenda center. They do the agenda and then they usually include packet information. So it yeah it was huge. It was quite high.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the RFP. It will be very interesting and that did cause some discussion. The very very cadence but people know it's going to be difficult. That's really that the
point was made that the two key issues on that site are we've got to protect the drinking water supply. It's right near the wells and it's just any proposal will have to deal with that issue and the storm water issues that
the people in that neighborhood have. And those are two key points that uh that came up and it had the the RFP has already uh dealt with some of the complaints from that earlier um controversy by having leaving a good
solid buffer of trees in the in the area that they suggest that the proposals have to deal with. So it's going to be interesting to see what comes in. Thank you, Jer. uh upcoming
meetings uh next Wednesday or may it might be Mon. It might be a Monday. I don't know. A Monday, Joanne. I don't know what day of the week it is. Um uh Kathy and I will
be with the select board and anyone who would like to join us on Tuesday, May 6th. Um that would be great. Uh then May 7th, we're going to have a pretty full agenda with some new topics, zoning. Um and uh then May
21st again uh we'll be back with some deliverables from BCF BCS. Yeah, I think um Jeff is hoping to have a discussion on um the revised draft of the existing
condition section. June. Anything else that you wanted to add to those meetings, Kath that we need to No, just what I had mentioned before, the 4th is going to be a very busy meeting June 4th and then we need to have the
extra meeting on the 25th. Madam Chair, yes. Could I address the seventh meeting? Um, there's been a lot of social media discussion about our May 7th meeting. Um, and I'm not sure what
people are expecting, but um, there's been a call to action, if you will. Come to our meeting. Come to our meeting on the 7th. Apparently, the town administrator has had a meeting with um, Mr. Toli with regards to lobster. And I
think that's one of the reasons why it's on our agenda. Um, but I'm concerned that we're going to get a room full of people that are expect us to do something and we can and that's not what we're going to be able to do. Um, I don't know
if it's something we want to say now that, you know, this is what our plan is to do on with regards to that so that we don't have 700 people in here screaming at us to do something that we can't possibly do on Tuesday night. We can't do anything Wednesday night. Wednesday.
So you got or whatever day of the week it is. Something Tuesday night. Yeah, we might something do Tuesday night. Um just because you know it's it's it's like the cranberry bog issue. It's been kind of a little bit blown up and I think people are I think some people
might expect that that they're going to come here Tuesday night and talk to the board of selectman and then show up on Wednesday night. See how I covered myself with that? That was pretty good, huh? Um expecting us to do something. And I I think maybe if we just quickly say now that you know nothing's going to
be or what we intend to do on Tuesday night might quell some of the next set. I think it is important to indicate what the process is for any zoning amendment changes. And I think it's also important let's
not go backwards. Let's go forward from here. The you know determination was made. We're here now. we want to talk about what what are you doing and then what can we do in order to allow something to happen if that's what
the board wants to do. Um but I think um you know the the main reason this was brought to the how the town became aware of of it was through the off premises signage and I don't typically the
planning board um has limited obviously off- premise signs but we have for like food trucks said you know what we allow if you're a food truck you can have a sandwich board sign out when you're open so people know. So there's different things that we can talk about, find out
what their needs are, but I do think it's important to set expectations that any zoning changes that happen here is a process. It needs to go through zoning through iteration, right? Which but I'm sure a lot of people don't know what has to really go into. Although although if
you watch that zoning meeting, they were very direct about what needed to be done. I mean, they really schooled the auditorium that night uh about this is what you need to do. this is what we are limited. We've done what we can do. Here's what you need to do. They were
very was clear as I mean I mean the people if the people wanted to pursue this here's what you need to do. Here's here are the options that you have. We our hands are tied at this point. We have ZBA was saying yes. We've come to a conclusion this is all we can do. If you
want to pursue this here's what you need to do. Um, so and I thought that was very good because that was, as you know, a very contentious meeting, but they did a very good job telling the audience what you can do. Here, here's your recourse. Here's what you can do. I never heard them say go to the planning
board ever in that conversation. I think that came about from a discussion with the town administrator and the the plaintiff, okay, who ultimately I mean the reality of it is this is where it has to start. If they were going to change any of his own bylaws to
accommodate him or any other issue that we may have, the process is one in which step one is to hear the issue and then look for solutions and go through the process just like we did with ADUs and everything else. You know, we have public hearings, you know, and food trucks. We did it with food trucks.
Sure. And then it comes to town meeting and twothirds vote at town meeting is going to give you what you want or not. Um but um you know I I think just by talking about it tonight, I'm hoping there are people there that that are watching tonight recognizing that
next Wednesday night is not going to give them the immediate solution that they may be thinking for. Absolutely. It's not that we don't want to, it's just that it's not the process and we can't immediately. Madam Chair, I think if you have a very nicely prepared opening statement to start that meeting
that will just take the temperature from wherever it might be. I have no idea what it's going to be like, but if you can just set the tone, maybe you and Kathy could establish right up front. This is who we are. This is what we are. This is what we can do. This is what we can't do. And then maybe just everything
will just kind of go like this. That is my two cents, Madam Chair. Thank you. Well, I appreciate that. Well, I think um my thoughts exactly hearing loud and clear. and my thoughts as well. Uh it's important to um be very clear about what the expectations
um uh need to be um for the outcome of that meeting. So, and while acknowledging that we appreciate that people are passionate and ex and and involved and or just at the very least involved, right, which is something that all of us who work on these committees
wonder like is anybody watching? Is anybody listening? You're going right. You're going right where I was going to go where. Oh, sorry. You you we we we initiated this. The town initiated this to listen to find out more about what the particular
needs of this um of this person and maybe this industry which is important to our town and how we how we can help them in a logical reasonable way. Um the last thing we want is a petition article.
Um and and we know sometimes that's how these things wind up and petition articles are typically um problematic. So emotional and and that's why we want to make this um outreach and why the
town administrator has made this outreach um so that we can listen to what the needs are and then make a plan to how to how we can help them long term. Yeah. Yeah. long term, right?
Yeah. Anything else? My two cents. No, no, that's okay. I'm I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad you brought it up. Thank you. Um, so may I have a motion to adjurnn? So moved. Second. All in favor? I I Thank you, Peter.
I He wants to stay. Thank you. Goodbye.